# The next best thing to oil



## lotuseclat79 (Sep 12, 2003)

The next best thing to oil.

*A renewable carbon economy? Surely that's a pipe dream? Perhaps not, now that solar power facilities are cropping up in deserts across California, Spain and North Africa. The idea is to use the sun to power chemical plants able to split carbon dioxide. Combine the resulting carbon monoxide with hydrogen and you have the beginnings of a solar fuel that could one day replace oil.*

Its all gotta start somewhere - if not here, then there!

-- Tom


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## leroys1000 (Aug 16, 2007)

They need to get the carbon out of the cycle.
Use the solar power for hydrogen electrolysis from water
and you got a totally clean,renewable fuel source.
Modern automobiles can be adapted relatively low cost.
The problem is getting the fat cats to start changing the existing
infrastructure,because it aint gonna be cheap.
Probably could use the existing natural gas infrastructure
and pipe it right to houses.

One guy has a website that shows how they created a safe
hydrogen storage system for cars and has been running
a car on it for a couple of years.

Can't find the site right now,but a while back the government
came in and took all their equipment.
They must have been on to something that threatened the
status quo.


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## JohnWill (Oct 19, 2002)

leroys1000 said:


> One guy has a website that shows how they created a safe hydrogen storage system for cars and has been running a car on it for a couple of years.


 Well, I sort of believed it until you came up with the Government conspiracy. 

http://www.gizmag.com/go/6570/

http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&sour...sg=AFQjCNGcYS4HN7M3irC5dyRv0hjqSz_P8A&cad=rja


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## leroys1000 (Aug 16, 2007)

They used a dry checmical to absorb the hydrogen.
Then the bottles are heated to release the hydrogen when needed.
Site had been up for a while and it wasn't a consiracy,they posted
that the government had taken their equipment on the site.
Here it is....
http://www.neutralexistence.com/blog/complete-car-hydrogen-conversion-kit-from-united-nuclear/


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## JohnWill (Oct 19, 2002)

The article starts out:


> A good friend of mine just sent me to


So, what we have here is a guy that a friend of a friend that knows this guy told us a story.

Right!


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## leroys1000 (Aug 16, 2007)

That excerpt was originally posted on the owners website.
http://www.switch2hydrogen.com/
Frankly John,I hadn't figured you to be one to need to belittle anyone
especially without doing some research.
That time of the month?


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## Stoner (Oct 26, 2002)

Speaking of research.......this is where mine wound up on a quickie search :

http://www.switch2hydrogen.com/ is associated with Bob Lazar ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bob_Lazar )
indirectly through a follow up of this site ( http://www.unitednuclear.com/ ) associated with switch2hydrogen.com

From the wiki article:



> His critics have asserted that "Lazar's credibility crumbled" after "schools he was supposed to have attended had no record of him, while others in the scientific community had no memory of ever meeting him.


oops.


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## leroys1000 (Aug 16, 2007)

Yeah oops.
Didn't see any of that or anything about bob lazar.
Guess it's my time of the month,LOL.
Nice find.
Still think that hydrogen system is viable though.
Sorry for the comment John.
Apparently I had it coming.


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## JohnWill (Oct 19, 2002)

Well, it sounds like the "government conspiracy" is not quite so clear cut from this page. Perhaps heavy handed, but it doesn't sound quite like it's being painted.

http://www.panacea-bocaf.org/unitednuclearhydrogencars.htm

I'm just not buying the government is trying to suppress technology that would help make alternate fueled cars practical.


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## leroys1000 (Aug 16, 2007)

I am not really political.
I was just posting what I had seen.
My original post was about the technologies and I wasn't
trying to sidetrack it by what the government involvement was.

I have been interested in hydrogen technology for some
time,and considering the planet is 2/3 covered with
water and solar technologies have improved quite
a bit,it is a very viable option at this point.
The only polution and loss would basically be heat.

After the infrastructure is setup,the cost would consist
of expansion as needed and maintenance.

I have been wondering if it is viable to increase the
output by using tesla coils for a low current,high voltage array
to cut down on the amount of electricity used.
Just need to keep checking.


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## JohnWill (Oct 19, 2002)

Well, I think there are a number of promising alternative fuels, including hydrogen, and I hope they move forward. I guess I just see too many government conspiracy stories to take them all seriously. 



> I have been wondering if it is viable to increase the output by using tesla coils for a low current,high voltage array to cut down on the amount of electricity used. Just need to keep checking.


I think mixing this with hydrogen will be somewhat dangerous!


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## leroys1000 (Aug 16, 2007)

Yes,it could be if not handled properly.
If a large,insulated plastic tank were used,there could be emitters
centered in the bottom surrounded by a metal ground grid.
The grid and emitters could be submerged in distilled water,
which is non condustive.
The tank would be tall,with the hydrogen rising to the top of
the tank and output there.
The oxygen output would be closer to the bottom above the water
as the oxygen is heavier.
The only conductive parts would be the emitter and the ground grid
surrounding it,so arcing should be pretty well controlled.
I imagine a cooling system would be needed down from the
gas outputs to liquify the gas.
Unless some type of passive heat exchanger could be used
to provided cooling,it would be another power drain.
A passive system would probably work fairly well in the desert
with the tanks buried in the ground and a safety vent on top.
Just my brain gas,but who knows.


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## Squashman (Apr 4, 2003)

If this Switch2Hydrogen was the real deal I would think we would see our President pimping it all over TV. But maybe not after seeing him sing the praises of the Jeep Grand Cherokee manufacturing on TV.


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## leroys1000 (Aug 16, 2007)

I just remember that there are a lot of other interests
invovled in the energy infrastructure in this country.
If it was easy to get by all the hurdles,it would probably
already be in the works.


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## sxzaq1 (Aug 15, 2010)

leroys1000 said:


> I just remember that there are a lot of other interests
> invovled in the energy infrastructure in this country.
> If it was easy to get by all the hurdles,it would probably
> already be in the works.


Or, if the powers that be (BIG OIL) would be ruined by a (HYROGEN ECONOMY), they would use every weapon in their arsenal to suppress it.

You can make hydrogen in your back yard! With concentrated solar power, you can make all the steam, electricity, heat, and hydrogen you need. The powers that be know this. Wake up and smell the coffee. Open your eyes man, most are afraid of what they see, therefore their only reaction is to call it all spook phobia. A more wise approach is to seek knowledge, dig deeper, question authority.

Find the issue of Popular Mechanics back in the early 1970's (1973 I think) with the pic of the Triumph Car on the cover, discover the name of the man who built the hydrogen fuel system in that car. Dig deeper into the life and works of this man.


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## Stoner (Oct 26, 2002)

sxzaq1 said:


> .......................
> 
> You can make hydrogen in your back yard! With concentrated solar power, you can make all the steam, electricity, heat, and hydrogen you need. .....................................


Do you have any linkage to those claims that involve working examples?


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## sxzaq1 (Aug 15, 2010)

Stoner said:


> Do you have any linkage to those claims that involve working examples?


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## sxzaq1 (Aug 15, 2010)

sxzaq1 said:


>


Hydrogen generators (electorlysis process) are availiable as a compact unit about the size of a residential washing machine. Just plug into an electrical outlet and plumb in a water line.


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## sxzaq1 (Aug 15, 2010)

see also: http://mikebrownsolutions.com/steamart.htm

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solar_Two


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## leroys1000 (Aug 16, 2007)

Yes,the electrolysis devices have been available for a long time
but consume a lot of power considering what the output is.
Solar energy hasn't been efficient enough to make it viable
until recently and electrolysis is a relatively slow process.

The major hurdle is a safe storage system for cars that
doesn't turn them into a bomb in an accident.
With gasoline,the fuel has to vaporize to burn.
with hydrogen,it's already gassified which makes it
more volitile.
Even if it were pressurized into a liquid,as soon as a tank was
ruptured it would quickly revert to a gas.


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## sxzaq1 (Aug 15, 2010)

In the event of a ruptured hydrogen tank in an automobile, the hydrogen goes straight up and combusts in a flash and is over relatively quickly. Gasoline, or other liquid auto fuels, flow underneath the vehicle and, when burning, consume the whole vehicle.


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## sxzaq1 (Aug 15, 2010)

IMO, hydrogen is as safe as and as dangerous as gasoline, just a different set of requirements.


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## sxzaq1 (Aug 15, 2010)

Just a little intersting trivial fact about hydrogen: there is more hydrogen in a gallon of water and/or diesel than there is in a gallon of liquid hydrogen.


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## JohnWill (Oct 19, 2002)

Well, it's fun to have "trivial facts", but we're short on practical applications that actually are more efficient and less costly than hydrocarbon fuels. That's where the *Rubber meets the road* in this discussion.


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## Stoner (Oct 26, 2002)

sxzaq1 said:


>


Interesting as a video....but nothing there demonstrating *"With concentrated solar power, you can make all the steam, electricity, heat, and hydrogen you need. " *
unless the backyard is huge and then the cost factor of assembly and storage becomes a relevant issue.
Any data on cost per kwh ?

Being a video, it didn't address night time storage.
Was this only hydrogen conversion or was there an electrical storage system associated with night time use?


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## Stoner (Oct 26, 2002)

sxzaq1 said:


> see also: http://mikebrownsolutions.com/steamart.htm
> 
> ...................


It's a practical issue.....a head of steam takes too long to be convenient for automotive usage, but for long haul trucks, it might be.
Lear worked on a steam turbine unit for auto use....but it was a failure and from what I remember, his losses were extreme.
As I remember, the issue he couldn't overcome was the same issue that the Stanley Steamer had.......a long start that was unacceptable from a consumer pov..


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## Stoner (Oct 26, 2002)

sxzaq1 said:


> .............
> 
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solar_Two


If you noticed.....units like that are rather restricted to large open areas like the waste lands of deserts where land usage is already minimal. Good for western states, not so good for high density East coast states.

There are solar units in place on the roofs of many manufacturing plants to provide supplementary electricity during daylight hours.

And while not solar, there is the Bloom Box that has been getting attention and looks promising as an alternate energy source.
60 minutes did a piece on it a while back and it seems to be well received in business use.....and it's claimed home units will be practical.

But as electrical needs expand, I suspect fusion generation will be the major supplier when the technology is worked out.


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## JohnWill (Oct 19, 2002)

Fusion is the energy equivalent of the *Great Hope*. If it ever becomes practical, it should finally actually solve the energy needs. 

Of course, since we've stopped spending money on pure research, it's not likely to happen in our lifetime.


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## Stoner (Oct 26, 2002)

Probably not.


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## sxzaq1 (Aug 15, 2010)

Stoner said:


> Interesting as a video....but nothing there demonstrating *"With concentrated solar power, you can make all the steam, electricity, heat, and hydrogen you need. " *
> unless the backyard is huge and then the cost factor of assembly and storage becomes a relevant issue.
> Any data on cost per kwh ?
> 
> ...


As far as night time storage, you have a couple of options: 

design your Concentrated Solar System to melt salt. Go down to your local feed & seed and get a few bags of fertilizer, more specifically:
Sodium Nitrate (NaNO3): 60% w. 
Potassium Nitrate (KNO3): 40% w.

The melting point is somewhere above 450 degrees farenheit and you can heat it up to around 1050 degrees. This stuff has been used for years in the petro. chemical industry.

This example is best described by following Solar 1 and Solar 2 in the Mojova desert near Barstow, CA. The research began there in the early 1980's, and resulted in the Solar Tres facility that is currently under construction east of Seville, Spain. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Solar_Project

Now, while in Spain, go west of the city and check out: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PS10_solar_power_tower

2. The other option is to skip all the hot salt and go directly to electricity via/Stirling Motors. http://cleanergyindustries.com/. Use this system to generate hydrogen - to store energy an night.


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## JohnWill (Oct 19, 2002)

Too bad there's no practical suggestions that might actually be cost effective there.


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## sxzaq1 (Aug 15, 2010)

JohnWill said:


> Too bad there's no practical suggestions that might actually be cost effective there.


Perhaps the practical suggestion here is unspoken, or untyped, if the links I provided don't inspire and motivate, then, *aquila non capit muscas!*


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## JohnWill (Oct 19, 2002)

The plain facts are that too many people are trying to turn a quick buck on alternative energy, and this country has put it's collective head in the sand and stopped funding pure research. If we change that stance, we'll probably someday actually solve this and many other issues.


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## sxzaq1 (Aug 15, 2010)

Don't wait on the establishment to do research, do your own!


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## JohnWill (Oct 19, 2002)

sxzaq1 said:


> Don't wait on the establishment to do research, do your own!


Gee, now there's a realistic thought. I'll just round up a couple billion dollars and start working on fusion research. I'm sure you'll contribute to the cause, right? 

I think I'm done posting here, this is getting absurd!


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## Stoner (Oct 26, 2002)

sxzaq1 said:


> As far as night time storage, you have a couple of options:
> 
> design your Concentrated Solar System to melt salt. Go down to your local feed & seed and get a few bags of fertilizer, more specifically:
> Sodium Nitrate (NaNO3): 60% w.
> ...


This may work for a low wattage system, but it hardly seems reasonable to power any of the new homes in my area,



JohnWill said:


> Too bad there's no practical suggestions that might actually be cost effective there.


That's the way I see it, too.
Alternatives and supplemental sources have to be both economical and provide a sustainable/reliable current.

Zoning laws in my area just aren't going to be sympathetic to contraptions that take up backyards in neighborhoods.
The Bloom Box might be acceptable though, because of it's relatively smaller size..


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