# System degradation accelerates over time even if not used?



## joeAgain------ (Mar 13, 2002)

Hi All,

I've got DELL system with a 850Mhz PIII CPU and 384 Mb RAM and am on a dial-up internet connection. And for 2yrs. had very few problems, but that change awhile ago.

We leave our computer on all the time. I've been struggling to solve a truly aggrevating problem that started about 6 months ago. It's that my computer is only fresh and responsive after a reboot, but slowly(usually after 4 hrs or so) degrades in speed, the mouse pointer gets increasingly more jerky, and my clock falls further and further behind on the time it displays(I don't care about the clock thing, but I just mention it...because it also happens). 
I replaced my CMOS battery with a fresh one about a month ago, so I know that is not part of my problem. Have VERY few programs running in the background. I clean out my registry fairly regularly. I delete all my cache of temporary internet files, cookies,etc. very frequently. I run Ad-Aware frequently and know I have no spyware, etc. I upgrade my virus protection(Norton 2002) frequently and run virus scans with it, PANDA's and Trend HouseCall's free on-line services frequently also, so I know I have no viruses, trojans, etc. I scandisc once a week, and defrag. about every 2 or 3.

Today when I got home I noticed it was worse than ever before, because it had been maybe 18 hrs since the last restart to freshen things up.

This is what happened and I hope someone might see something I'm inexperienced with or maybe had this before to advice me of why and what to do.
-------------------------------------
We restarted the system at about 10PM last night and the system acted fresh and responsive...with the clock showing the correct time. My wife and kids checked their email and browsed a little before going to bed.

I get up early for work and looked at the computer and it was only 5 minutes behind on the clock at 3AM the next morning. I like to wake up by browsing on the computer and downloaded a few MP3 songs and music videos. By the time for me to go to work(at 4:30AM) the clock was then 15 minutes behind and the speed (and mouse pointer)were starting to slowdown somewhat.

Now here is the puzzling thing that started to happen. Nobody used the computer until my wife woke up at 7AM and checked her email. She told me by that time the computer was "fairly" slow and glitchy...and the clock was about 30 mins behind. 

During the day, everyone was gone and nobody was using the computer, but when my wife checked it at 1PM, it was really slow and the clock was then 1 hour behind.

Nobody used it then until I got home at 4:30PM at which time the clock was 2 1/2 hrs. behind! And extremely jerky(the mouse)and VERY slow and unresponsive (taking 15 or 20 seconds to do anything even off-line).

THAT is the worse it has ever been. I'm looking into possible software conflicts now, but I am very puzzled why things CONTINUED degrading worse over those periods that the system was idle!

Has anybody ever seen that? Or have a possible reason?

I could understand if it stayed at a certain degradation level while idle...and then continued to degrade when someone got back on an surfed, downloaded heavily,etc.(I'd still like to know why that is happening, but it is normal for how thing are going lately and make nore sense while being used)

But continuing the accelerating degradation curve or downhill trend WHILE nobody was on it has me mystified.

Any thoughts? Anybody? Please help me if you do!

Thanks, Joe


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## Byteman (Jan 24, 2002)

Hi again, JoeAgain, My first thought is to again, replace the battery- you never know- could have gotten a "lemon" a month ago. This battery is supposed to hold a charge a long time- and when the system is shut down, remain charged and ready...it almost sounds like there is some sort of power problem, power management problem, in that machine. Might be some "special" kind/brand of battery that is needed....just a thought. Have seen some brand new ones need replacing in just a short time...I usually get mine at a local Staples, two in a pack, won't mention the brand, cost= $3 and change. The worst ones came from a Radio Shack. Next thought is a bad BIOS chip- have you flashed BIOS lately? Using correct flash and procedures? Dell may reccommend that you try the "Reset CMOS" procedure.
When you change batteries, usually you will get a "Checksum error"- with a Dell, I would not care to speculate- ask them what you should get and what to enter when you change the battery.
Some systems automatically switch to "Loading Setup Defaults", might be correct for the Dell, might not be best, take it easy and post back so those needing the same help can see what "fixes" a similar problem, and also because it's real nice to do...


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## joeAgain------ (Mar 13, 2002)

Hi Byteman,

I had always heard that if the clock is correct on a reboot...that meant the CMOS battery was good.

You know? 

The system is being taxed by something while "Up", and not using the CMOS battery. I've heard that the clock is the last in the pecking order for system resources, and in cases like that gets short-changed and falls behind.

But if the CMOS battery is good, it is keeping correct time on the motherboard and will correct the system clock when "consulted" on a reboot.

That IS what happens on my computer, the CMOS battery always corrects the system clock to the right time on reboot....so it is good. Right?

Does that sound like the way it works, my new friend?


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## WhitPhil (Oct 4, 2000)

Joe:

Do a couple of things. I don't know if we will see anything, but you never know.

1. Start > Run > Msinfo32

On the left side, select software environment and then Running Tasks.
Then Edit > Select All
Edit > Copy

Then paste the list back into this thread

2. Download and run StartUplog from http://home.earthlink.net/~rmbox/Reticulated/Toys.html

It creates a file StartUp.log on your desktop. Copy/paste the contents back here (ignore the StubPaths file created)

3. Download TaskInfo

This is a useful tool to watch what is actually running on the PC. You can use it to check when you "think" it is idle, and confirm that it really is.


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## joeAgain------ (Mar 13, 2002)

Morning WhitPhil,
Shoot! I wish I'd gotten your reply last night. Now I'm at work and won't be able to do that until about 4:30PM Texas time.(but I will then, and repost back what they show.)

Do you still think it is something running in the background? I thought I posted those things before when you asked on the other board? I've tried so many things...I'm loosing it!(HaHa)...and can't remember them all sometimes.

I have used taskInfo for a long time. I really like it and have checked it often doing this ongoing process to solve this problem.

Typically it says my system is about 92% idle when we are not doing anything on the computer except it.

This latest "wrinkle" in this problem is Totally mystifying me! I think it most likely has been there since the problem started, but this degredation is so aggrevating that we don't usually go so long between reboots to freshen thing up....so we never noticed this angle before.

This HAS to be symptomatic of something specific. Wouldn't you agree? Have you ever heard of a computer degrading by increasing amounts while idle?

Do you know of a program that will record the CPU usage over a period of time? And report what thing used how much resources at what time? I wonder if I've got something that "kicks in" periodically when it is idle while I'm not looking? 

Is there such a thing?

Joe


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## Byteman (Jan 24, 2002)

I think it must be some kind of hardware problem with the motherboard, Joe- why not ask Dell to replace it, if under warranty- they may just do it anyway, for good customer relationship....have seen that done! If you have investigated a lot, and run a good diagnostic, can't see what kind of software would be doing this. Have you tried SiSoft Sandra- which will give you more information than you can possibly digest, with an amazing efficiency- the really technical data that a Dell tech or some here could review to help. It's free, usually comes on those free CDs or can be downloaded.


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## joeAgain------ (Mar 13, 2002)

Yes, I've got SySandra on my computer.

You are right. It gives you a mind bending amount of info(but some only if you buy the Pay version, though)...on a system.

Which thing in particular that SySandra gives me are you thinking would help me solve this?


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## griffinspc (Nov 16, 2001)

Hi, Joe. Don't recall seeing this statement in your other descriptions, "We leave our computer on all the time."

Couple of thoughts. Would you check you're Windows folder for these type temp files:

ffe1f96d_{173D4563-1AE6-11D6-AF26-70E651C12700}.tmp 
ffe1f96d_{173D4564-1AE6-11D6-AF26-70E651C12700}.tmp 

If any, how many?

2nd thought. do you have Find Fast enabled?


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## Byteman (Jan 24, 2002)

Joe- Without it here in front of me, couldn't begin to say exactly- your problem is one I have not come up against, although my Athlon based Everex built pc used to lose terrible amounts of resources, but never lost time like yours....mine had a bad heat problem- cleaning heatsink, reinstalling slot processor with Arctic Silver thermal paste, increasing RAM to 256MB, slimming down on the startups, cleaning junk files, and updating drivers helped....yes, it was my first pc, two years ago. Came with about 50 programs installed, yup, one of those like Systemax puts out....then, of course I ran out and got all the freebie browsers and stuff I could- which increased the burden on everything....crash! bang! first the modem went....knew squat about lightning, telephone surge burnt that....next the power supply......sent pc back to California, under warranty, they would not let me replace the PS- even tho I had been repairing stuff for a year.....next, had to reinstall everything, twice, learning curve there.... got things going pretty well the second time around. Had a lot of help from sites like this! 
At one point I had SiSoft on here, and although I could not understand about half the really tech /engineer stuff, I got the basic drift- a whole bunch of memory leakage, system resource drains, caused by the bad hardware, especially when online. The new parts helped, and when I finally got everything installed right, even though this pc has been through "hell" it today is fast and running error free, since the spyware was cleared out with the help of AdAware. I used to monkey around with all sorts of testing apps, but basically it came down to a good clean install, with correct procedures, updates to Internet Explorer done right, drivers, etc. 
Along the way, I did learn about resource "leakage" which was more a problem before win98se.... there are some patches that can be applied, but I found the freebie memory helpers did not correct much, and that Win98se manages memory fine, as far as I am concerned, when things are done right. My resources now average 92% at startup, and after hours of online use, go down to 73%, just checked while online....so, I sure cant complain about anything. 
I would suspect the modem perhaps, or something on the board, like a LAN device that perhaps you dont even use, is somehow leaking away resources....not neccessarily RAM....a short in the board could cause this. Worms can also do this, but would have been found I would think, as you say you scan regularly and keep things maintained. 
SiSoft Sandra should show,something like this, but it takes some time to flip through all the pages of the details, as you know.... there is a tool in Windows, called the Resource Monitor, which you can enbable from Add/Remove programs, Windows setup- just put a check in there, and it will install, you may need the CD or point it to .cab files on hard drive...
The Resource Monitor might not pinpoint anything, but it might show when the activity happens, and you can then perhaps find out what processes cause the leakage, and eliminate them in a step by step turning off through msconfig- maybe. 
The thing I think helped the most was a real good Uninterruptible Power Supply- a battery backup/line conditioner/surge protector all in one. We have a lot of power problems where I live, and bad lightning....have not had a problem since I got this. I also shut down and turn off pc when we have bad storms... I can see and hear the clicks when power fluctuates, and it gives me time to save and shut down, although it does this automatically, and even stays shut down when the power comes back on, without one of these, the pc might try to boot "alone" if you follow me... which can run Scandisk "alone" and create a bad situation. 
If you leave the pc on all the time, (I used to) you are at the mercy of power company and mother nature, unless you take measures to control things. Probably the system itself combined with what software you are using causes the problem. 
Maybe post the exact details of motherboard, chipset, make/model, and the complete software inventory like Belarc Advisor will put out for you, might give one of the experts here a clue? Sorry this is so long, but might just help someone!


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## Rollin' Rog (Dec 9, 2000)

Are you running Symantec's Cleansweep as well as NAV 2002?

There are a number of clock related issues in Symantec's data base.

If you tick "knowledge base" and enter: clock loses time, you will find them


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## joeAgain------ (Mar 13, 2002)

Wow! I go away for a break....and come back to "Mega Help"!

Thanks, guys....let me try to reply one by one.

Griffinspc: Yes, I added that later after I though people might think I was saying the computer was loosing time while shutdown(indicating a CMOS battery problem. Which is not the case here)

I'll look for those at 4:30 when I get home. What are those?(I clean out temp files regularly)

No, I stop FastFind from running because I've been told it is a resource hog.


Byteman: I've also replaced hardware since this started(CPU, RAM)but not motherboard, yet.

We have lightning storms here too. I've always been afraid of having my computer fried,...so I always shutdown at the 1st rumble, and keep an eye on the weather channel...never leaving the computer up, or the dial-up phone line connected if there is a chance of one while we're away from the house.

I hadn't thought about fluctuations in out little town power supply. What would that do? If you mean power inturrupts,..wouldn't that have the same effect as me rebooting the computer....make the system fresh and catchup on the slow clock on restart?

LAN device? How do I find out about that? I had a network card that I removed a year ago.

Rollin' Roq: Yes, I use it now and then. I use a few other utilities that delete temporary internet files, temp files, cookies, recent files, etc.....is that what you mean? CleanSweep has a number of functions...which one(s) do you mean?

Thanks, I'll check Symantec's sight about clock issues.

Joe


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## Byteman (Jan 24, 2002)

I've always understood that one should use a clean line for pc"s, that is, a dedicated outlet, on it's own wire from the house/building panel box, so that's what I did here- ran a new 15A line, properly grounded, to the outlets serving the pc office area... our wiring is as of 1985, and electrician's then were really not into computer stuff- they throw lights and outlets all on the same lines in, just tapping where they want a switch or light...if you have florescent lighting, they can cause the freakiest things, like modems that will not dial out, when in a circuit with the pc"s outlet, no matter what kind of power strip you use, it does not filter the interference. I sit here on the pc a lot, I can use an overhead florescent machinist's lamp to see down onto motherboards and read that really nasty fine printing for jumper settings, with no problem... I can also see when the lights flicker, they are on a different line, but the pc"s line flickers, too, because the UPS box makes a clicking sound and it's LED light goes from green to orange, which indicates a drop or some surge in voltage, which it protects pc from....they also make add-on line conditioners, to help with problems in areas power fluctuates a lot...these problems could include messing up the power supply or sensitive electronic components, to put it simply. Tripp-Lite also gives you software that automatically saves data, powers down the pc, and prevents it from starting after the power is restored... in case you are not right there and pc is left on, since a bad shutdown and restart can result in file problems or the pc running without the monitor coming on full, things like that...some people have pc set to autodial Internet at boot, dont know why, but if they were paying by the minute...... Some people have tasks set, or programs to run, printing queued up, etc that all would be going at a restart.... 
I would think that Rog has nailed another one- something like the AV could be sucking resources, must be some settings in Norton CleanSweep or other parts of SystemWorks you can change- you of course want to keep the AV running- have read stuff about the other parts that monitor files all the time, and that you probably would be better off without them running. 
Some boards have LAN modules built into them, have one that does, but I don't use it yet- though I suppose the software that came with the board is installed....maybe something is "looking" for your old NIC or another PC? Wake on LAN in BIOS?


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## Rollin' Rog (Dec 9, 2000)

I forgot to post the search link 

http://www.symantec.com/search/

Here's the one about CleanSweep:

http://service2.symantec.com/SUPPOR...71f5cfabcd87d5aac12567540031ade0?OpenDocument


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## joeAgain------ (Mar 13, 2002)

Wake on LAN in BIOS?? What do you mean, Byteman?


And what about my question on a variable power source from our little power company. I've heard voltage hear does fluctuat. Is that a problem?


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## joeAgain------ (Mar 13, 2002)

Thank you, Rollin' Roq

I did a search on their site and found that.

I know I disabled something on my 2002 SystemWorks having to do with tracking installations to "better uninstall them" when needed(because it seemed like a true resource hog). I'm not sure if that is what they are talking about in CleanSweap, or not.

I'll check when I get home at 4:30.

Thanks


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## Byteman (Jan 24, 2002)

In a pc I use, I installed an Amptron M-599LMR board, which has an optional LAN module to use on networks....here is what it says about the thing:
"Wake on LAN connector:
If you have installed a network adapter card, connect the adapter to the Wake on LAN connector JP4. You can then use the setup utility to program your computer to RESUME from a power saving mode whenever there is traffic through the network." 
I was guessing here, but could this feature be trying to do something, even to "look" for the network card or adapters you had/ may have still installed? ( Some Internet connection problems are known to stem from incorrect Network adapters left enabled, instead of switching back to "Family Logon" or, "Windows Logon" from, "Microsoft Network" or others.) That MIGHT be part of the problem- not claiming I know a lot about this, tho. Lots of people have Virtual Private Networking installed, never use it. It uses Network Adapters, that may be interfering somehow...not that I am sure about- just guessing. 
POWER: Yes, thought I explained that already- power brownouts and such happen all the time, lots of them are invisible to us, unless you see lights dimming, blinking, etc. Without adequate power protection at the pc, you can indeed have problems. Even the location of the plugs in the power strips have been seen as a problem- the rear plugs, that is the last ones in the row, sometimes do not supply right voltage to things plugged in there. Not sure about which models or brands, just something I read on a site. Nice to know, though. A well made, national brand strip should be good enough. The joule protection it provides is what you pay for- to handle power surges- and, some also have a phone plug to protect the modem and phone, but, have heard of problems using these, I use this feature on my Tripp-Lite UPS, no problems I am aware of. I still unplug lines in real bad storms, and of course shut down during them. Have had power go off while online, one time it knocked the printer port setting in BIOS out, at least I am blaming that for it... that was before I got the UPS, tho. 
Power shuts down= can cause enough damage to pc. Power comes on, big line surge, can harm power supplies in pc, so that they pass too muchh juice, from what I read. Lack of adequate surge protection, or perhaps not the best power supply in pc- could affect computer. That would probably not be your problem with a Dell- the power strip you use could be. Power supplies can be tested, and some systems are very sensitive to minor fluctuations to the processor and other devices. I think a good multimeter is what most folks use, I don't do that so can't help on that. Lots of people upgrading power supplies to handle big drives, CDRW's, stuff like that. Cheap ones just don't handle things well, no matter what they put out in watts- what matters, from what I have learned, is the power switching and voltage output to components, and how well this is served to the pc. Now that I think back, I have also heard of a messed up power supply that reversed, and drained the opposite way....hmmmm.


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## WhitPhil (Oct 4, 2000)

The Cleansweep note "looks" like it might be for older versions.
I'm running Norton 2000 and the CS version is 4.7. So I would "think" the Norton 2002 would be a higher version?

Note that the Usage Watch option doesn't appear in mine. The "help" seems to relate it to SmartSweep, which is the installation monitor.


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## joeAgain------ (Mar 13, 2002)

Byteman,

Do you know how I would look on my computer for progams trying to use a LAN connection?

(the network card was pulled out a year ago)


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## joeAgain------ (Mar 13, 2002)

WhitPhil,

THAT's it. That's(SmartSweep)what I disabled. It seemed like it would slow things down.


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## joeAgain------ (Mar 13, 2002)

But guys,
Isn't there a clue here? 

What kinds of programs could there be, or other situations that would make my system continue to degrade more and more...While Idle?

It makes Much more sence to degrade while computer is being used heavily...and then stay at that degredation level...until someone got back on the system and continued. But to accelerate degration while idle? It doesn't make sence to me.

But it sounds like it is a clue(I just wish I knew what it was telling me about what is causing this)


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## Byteman (Jan 24, 2002)

Hey Joe- heres something I found just now about aCompaq computer that created a resources draining problem!
http://www.epinions.com/cmd-review-22F1-1D38656-3895E8A4-prod5
And here is probably one of the best tech explanation sites around: http://www.pcnineoneone.com/howto.html

Scroll to the "Electricity and your computer" part- the 2nd and 3rd pages about surges, etc.

Here's a page about slow clock:http://www.pcnineoneone.com/howto/slowclock.html
Will post more- just check this post.


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## joeAgain------ (Mar 13, 2002)

WhitPhil,
Well, it looks like more than I thought running in the background.
Here's the list that msinfo32 gave me just now:

Kernel32.dll	4.10.2222	Microsoft Corporation	Win32 Kernel core component	C:\WINDOWS\SYSTEM\Kernel32.dll	4.3	Microsoft(R) Windows(R) Operating System
MSGSRV32.EXE	4.10.2222	Microsoft Corporation	Windows 32-bit VxD Message Server	C:\WINDOWS\SYSTEM\MSGSRV32.EXE	4.0	Microsoft(R) Windows(R) Operating System
Mprexe.exe	4.10.1998	Microsoft Corporation	WIN32 Network Interface Service Process	C:\WINDOWS\SYSTEM\Mprexe.exe	4.0	Microsoft(R) Windows(R) Operating System
MMTASK.TSK	4.03.1998	Microsoft Corporation	Multimedia background task support module	C:\WINDOWS\SYSTEM\MMTASK.TSK	4.0	Microsoft Windows
Symtray.exe	2002.05.53	Symantec Corporation	Norton SystemWorks SymTray	C:\PROGRAM FILES\COMMON FILES\SYMANTEC SHARED\Symtray.exe	4.0	Norton SystemWorks
Blackd.exe	3.5.40	Internet Security Systems, Inc.	blackd	C:\PROGRAM FILES\ISS\BLACKICE\Blackd.exe	4.0	Network ICE Corporation blackd
Rapapp.exe	1.0.0.1	Internet Security Systems, Inc.	Rap Protection System C:\PROGRAM FILES\ISS\BLACKICE\Rapapp.exe	4.0	Rap Protection System
Mstask.exe	4.71.1968.1	Microsoft Corporation	Task Scheduler Engine	C:\WINDOWS\SYSTEM\Mstask.exe	4.0	Microsoft® Windows® Task Scheduler
Explorer.exe	4.72.3110.1	Microsoft Corporation	Windows Explorer	C:\WINDOWS\Explorer.exe	4.0	Microsoft(R) Windows NT(R) Operating System
Systray.exe	4.10.2222	Microsoft Corporation	System Tray Applet	C:\WINDOWS\SYSTEM\Systray.exe	4.0	Microsoft(R) Windows(R) Operating System
Navapw32.exe	8.07.17	Symantec Corporation	Norton AntiVirus Agent	C:\PROGRAM FILES\NORTON SYSTEMWORKS\NORTON ANTIVIRUS\Navapw32.exe	4.0	Norton AntiVirus
Aticwd32.exe	4.10.2339	ATI Technologies Inc.	ATI Common Windows Display Driver Extension	C:\WINDOWS\SYSTEM\Aticwd32.exe	4.0	ATI Technologies Inc.
Blackice.exe	3.5.40	Internet Security Systems, Inc.	BlackICE MFC Application	C:\PROGRAM FILES\ISS\BLACKICE\Blackice.exe	4.0	Internet Security Systems, Inc. BlackICE
Rnaapp.exe	4.10.2222	Microsoft Corporation	Microsoft(R) Windows(R) Operating System
Tapisrv.exe	4.10.2222	Microsoft Corporation	Microsoft® Windows(TM) Telephony Server	C:\WINDOWS\SYSTEM\Tapisrv.exe	4.0	Microsoft(R) Windows(R) Operating System
Iexplore.exe	6.00.2600.0000	Microsoft Corporation	Internet Explorer	C:\PROGRAM FILES\INTERNET EXPLORER\Iexplore.exe	4.0	Microsoft® Windows® Operating System
Msinfo32.exe	4.10.2222	Microsoft Corporation	MSInfo32	C:\PROGRAM FILES\COMMON FILES\MICROSOFT SHARED\MSINFO\Msinfo32.exe	4.0	Microsoft System Information


Any clues here?
(what is the thing about Windows NT about in the lower middle of the list??)
Joe


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## joeAgain------ (Mar 13, 2002)

Griffinspc,

I did a "Find Files and Folders" search and did not find the temp files you mentioned.

Wow!!! Here is what that other utility you recommended said:

StartUp Log Index

1. HKLM Run 
2. HKCU Run 
3. HKLM RunOnce 
4. HKCU RunOnce 
5. HKLM RunServices 
6. HKLM RunServicesOnce 
7. WIN.INI file 
8. SYSTEM.INI file 
9. AUTOEXEC.BAT file 
10. StartUp folder 
11. All Users StartUp 
12. Misc. StartUp Configurations

__________________________________________________________________________ 
__________________________________________________________________________

The following is a list of your current Start-Ups 
__________________________________________________________________________ 
__________________________________________________________________________

1. HKLM Run - Registry

[RegPath] 
"StartUp"

[HKEY_LOCAL_MACHINE\SOFTWARE\Microsoft\Windows\CurrentVersion\Run]
"ScanRegistry"="C:\\WINDOWS\\scanregw.exe /autorun"
"SystemTray"="SysTray.Exe"
"NAV Agent"="C:\\PROGRA~1\\NORTON~1\\NORTON~1\\NAVAPW32.EXE"
"hf"="D:\\UNINSTALL WINDOWS98\\SCBIC\\H FOLDERS\\H FILES\\HF.EXE 
"AtiCwd32"="Aticwd32.exe"

========================================================================== 
__________________________________________________________________________

2. HKCU Run - Registry

[RegPath] 
"StartUp"

[HKEY_CURRENT_USER\Software\Microsoft\Windows\CurrentVersion\Run]

========================================================================== 
__________________________________________________________________________

3. HKLM RunOnce - Registry

[RegPath] 
"StartUp"

[HKEY_LOCAL_MACHINE\SOFTWARE\Microsoft\Windows\CurrentVersion\RunOnce]

========================================================================== 
__________________________________________________________________________

4. HKCU RunOnce - Registry

[RegPath] 
"StartUp"

[HKEY_CURRENT_USER\Software\Microsoft\Windows\CurrentVersion\RunOnce]

========================================================================== 
__________________________________________________________________________

5. HKLM RunServices - Registry

[RegPath] 
"StartUp"

[HKEY_LOCAL_MACHINE\SOFTWARE\Microsoft\Windows\CurrentVersion\RunServices]
"ScriptBlocking"="\"C:\\Program Files\\Common Files\\Symantec Shared\\Script Blocking\\SBServ.exe\" -reg"
"SymTray - Norton SystemWorks"="C:\\Program Files\\Common Files\\Symantec Shared\\SymTray.exe \"Norton SystemWorks\""
"LoadBlackD"="C:\\Program Files\\ISS\\BlackICE\\blackd.exe"
"RapApp"="C:\\PROGRAM FILES\\ISS\\BLACKICE\\RapApp.exe"
"SchedulingAgent"="mstask.exe"

========================================================================== 
__________________________________________________________________________

6. HKLM RunServicesOnce - Registry

[RegPath] 
"StartUp"

[HKEY_LOCAL_MACHINE\SOFTWARE\Microsoft\Windows\CurrentVersion\RunServicesOnce]

========================================================================== 
__________________________________________________________________________

7. WIN.INI File - (c:\windows\win.ini)

Your win.ini run/load lines should look like run= and load= exclusively. 
There should be nothing to the right of the equal signs.

These are the run and load lines in your WIN.INI file

run=hpfsched

load=

========================================================================== 
__________________________________________________________________________

8. SYSTEM.INI File - (c:\windows\system.ini)

Your system.ini shell line should look like shell=Explorer.exe exclusively. 
You should only see Explorer.exe following the equal sign.

This is the shell line in your SYSTEM.INI file

shell=Explorer.exe

========================================================================== 
__________________________________________________________________________

9. AUTOEXEC.BAT File - (c:\autoexec.bat)

(Some trojans have been known to start from this file)

These are your program startups and set paths in your autoexec.bat file

@ECHO OFF
SET CLASSPATH=.;d:\COREL\OFFICE7\SHARED\BARISTA;d:\COREL\OFFICE7\SHARED\TRUEDOC;c:\COREL\OFFICE7\SHARED\BARISTA;c:\COREL\OFFICE7\SHARED\TRUEDOC
SET LD_LIBRARY_PATH=d:\COREL\OFFICE7\SHARED\TRUEDOC\BIN;c:\COREL\OFFICE7\SHARED\TRUEDOC\BIN
SET PATH=%PATH%;D:\COREL\OFFICE7\SHARED\TRUEDOC\BIN;C:\COREL\OFFICE7\SHARED\TRUEDOC\BIN;C:\FAFSA012

========================================================================== 
__________________________________________________________________________

10. StartUp Folder - (c:\windows\start menu\programs\startup)

Shortcuts to any program will automatically start when placed here.

These are the shortcuts located in your StartUp folder

C:\WINDOWS\Start Menu\Programs\StartUp\BlackICE Utility.lnk

========================================================================== 
__________________________________________________________________________

11. All Users Folder - (c:\windows\all users\start menu\programs\startup)

Shortcuts to any program will automatically start when placed here.

These are the shortcuts located in your All Users StartUp folder

*(No start-ups found)*

========================================================================== 
__________________________________________________________________________

12. Miscellaneous StartUp Configurations

-============================- 
Registry StartUp Directories 
-============================-

Should show the Start Menu StartUp and All Users StartUp directories

.....................................................................

[1] HKCU - Shell Folders

HKCU\Software\Microsoft\Windows\CurrentVersion\Explorer\Shell Folders

"Startup"="C:\\WINDOWS\\Start Menu\\Programs\\StartUp"

.....................................................................

[2] HKCU - User Shell Folders

HKCU\Software\Microsoft\Windows\CurrentVersion\Explorer\User Shell Folders

.....................................................................

[3] HKLM - Shell Folders

HKLM\Software\Microsoft\Windows\CurrentVersion\explorer\Shell Folders

"Common Startup"="C:\\WINDOWS\\All Users\\Start Menu\\Programs\\StartUp"

.....................................................................

[4] HKLM - User Shell Folders

HKLM\Software\Microsoft\Windows\CurrentVersion\explorer\User Shell Folders

.....................................................................

-=======================- 
Registry Shell Spawning 
-=======================-

Open Commands for Executable File Types

@="\"%1\" %*"
(.exe file - RegPath = HKCR\exefile\shell\open\command)

@="\"%1\" %*"
(.com file - RegPath = HKCR\comfile\shell\open\command)

@="\"%1\" /S"
(.scr file - RegPath = HKCR\scrfile\shell\open\command)

@="\"%1\" %*"
(.bat file - RegPath = HKCR\batfile\shell\open\command)

@="\"%1\" %*"
(.pif file - RegPath = HKCR\piffile\shell\open\command)

@="C:\\WINDOWS\\SYSTEM\\MSHTA.EXE \"%1\" %*"
(.hta file - RegPath = HKCR\htafile\shell\open\command)

-=========================- 
HKLM RunOnceEx - Registry 
-=========================-

[HKEY_LOCAL_MACHINE\Software\Microsoft\Windows\CurrentVersion\RunOnceEx]

-=========================- 
HKU (.Default) Run - Registry 
-=========================-

[HKEY_USERS\.Default\Software\Microsoft\Windows\CurrentVersion\Run]

-==============================- 
HKU (.Default) RunOnce - Registry 
-==============================-

[HKEY_USERS\.Default\Software\Microsoft\Windows\CurrentVersion\RunOnce]

-================================- 
StubPaths - Registry (Partial Listing) 
-================================-

(Please see the StubPath.txt on your desktop for complete listing)

HKLM\Software\Microsoft\Active Setup\Installed Components

"OldStubPath"="C:\\WINDOWS\\SYSTEM\\ie4uinit.exe"
"RealStubPath"="C:\\WINDOWS\\SYSTEM\\IE4UINIT.EXE"
"StubPath"="C:\\WINDOWS\\msnmgsr1.exe"
"StubPath"=""
"StubPath"="C:\\WINDOWS\\COMMAND\\sulfnbk.exe /L"
"OldStubPath"="\"C:\\PROGRA~1\\OUTLOO~1\\setup50.exe\" /APP:OE /CALLER:WIN9X /user /install"
"RealStubPath"="\"C:\\PROGRA~1\\OUTLOO~1\\setup50.exe\" /APP:OE /CALLER:IE50 /user /install"
"OldStubPath"="\"C:\\PROGRA~1\\OUTLOO~1\\setup50.exe\" /APP:WAB /CALLER:WIN9X /user /install"
"RealStubPath"="\"C:\\PROGRA~1\\OUTLOO~1\\setup50.exe\" /APP:WAB /CALLER:IE50 /user /install"
"StubPath"="C:\\WINDOWS\\SYSTEM\\updcrl.exe -e -u C:\\WINDOWS\\SYSTEM\\verisignpub1.crl"

-=================- 
DOSSTART.BAT File - (c:\windows\dosstart.bat)
-=================-

REM DOS MOUSE DRIVER ADDED BY MICROSOFT INTELLIPOINT MOUSE SETUP 
LH C:\PROGRA~1\MICROS~3\MOUSE\mouse.exe
C:\WINDOWS\SETUPDS.EXE /S

-=================- 
WININIT.BAK File - (c:\windows\wininit.bak) 
(name) (type) (size)(modified)(time) 
wininit bak 837 04-21-02 5:37p
-=================-

[Rename]
C:\Program Files\HP DeskJet 810C Series\ereg\Remind32.exe=C:\PROGRA~1\HPDESK~1\EREG\Remind32.new
NUL=C:\WINDOWS\TEMP\PFLIC.TXT
NUL=C:\WINDOWS\TEMP\EREG.HPI
NUL=C:\WINDOWS\TEMP\INC.HPI
NUL=C:\WINDOWS\TEMP\USB.HPI
NUL=C:\WINDOWS\TEMP\APPS.HPI
NUL=C:\WINDOWS\TEMP\DRIVER.HPI
NUL=C:\WINDOWS\TEMP\MASTER.HPI
NUL=C:\WINDOWS\TEMP\INSTALL.HPI
NUL=C:\WINDOWS\TEMP\INC.HPI
NUL=C:\WINDOWS\TEMP\LICENSE.TXT
NUL=C:\WINDOWS\TEMP\INLINE.BMP
NUL=C:\WINDOWS\TEMP\USB.BMP
NUL=C:\WINDOWS\TEMP\RESTART.BMP
NUL=C:\WINDOWS\TEMP\LICENSE.BMP
NUL=C:\WINDOWS\TEMP\INTRO.BMP
NUL=C:\WINDOWS\TEMP\STATUS.BMP
NUL=C:\WINDOWS\TEMP\STATUS.BMP
NUL=C:\WINDOWS\TEMP\HPFC1611.DLL
NUL=C:\WINDOWS\TEMP\HPFECP11.DLL
NUL=C:\WINDOWS\TEMP\HPFMICM.EXE
NUL=C:\WINDOWS\TEMP\HPFAICM.EXE
NUL=C:\WINDOWS\TEMP\HPFIUI.EXE
NUL=C:\WINDOWS\TEMP\HPFINST.DLL
-=====================- 
Screen Saver Settings (Possible system.ini start-up) 
-=====================-

SCRNSAVE.EXE=C:\WINDOWS\SYSTEM\3DTEXT~1.SCR

========================================================================== 
__________________________________________________________________________

- Supplemental Environment Information -

TMP=C:\WINDOWS\TEMP
TEMP=C:\WINDOWS\TEMP
winbootdir=C:\WINDOWS
COMSPEC=C:\WINDOWS\COMMAND.COM
CLASSPATH=.;d:\COREL\OFFICE7\SHARED\BARISTA;d:\COREL\OFFICE7\SHARED\TRUEDOC;c:\COREL\OFFICE7\SHARED\BARISTA;c:\COREL\OFFICE7\SHARED\TRUEDOC
LD_LIBRARY_PATH=d:\COREL\OFFICE7\SHARED\TRUEDOC\BIN;c:\COREL\OFFICE7\SHARED\TRUEDOC\BIN
PATH=C:\WINDOWS;C:\WINDOWS\COMMAND;D:\COREL\OFFICE7\SHARED\TRUEDOC\BIN;C:\COREL\OFFICE7\SHARED\TRUEDOC\BIN;C:\FAFSA012
windir=C:\WINDOWS

File - c:\windows\Wininit.bak 
File - c:\windows\deletefi.ini

========================================================================== 
__________________________________________________________________________

- End -

Does this stuff show anything?


----------



## WhitPhil (Oct 4, 2000)

Msinfo:

I don't see anything out of the ordinary. 
Windows programs/dlls "can" have the NT label. Nothing to worry about.

I see MSTASK running which is the Scheduling Task. You should open it up and review the tasks that are scheduled there. Even on an "idle" machine, scheduled tasks will continue to be started.

StartLog
""hf"="D:\\UNINSTALL WINDOWS98\\SCBIC\\H FOLDERS\\H FILES\\HF.EXE"

Is certainly a "strange" entry.

Browse to D:\Uninstall Windows98\Scbic\H Folders\H Files and find the file HF.exe
Right mouse > properties to see what it is.
(unless you already know?)


----------



## joeAgain------ (Mar 13, 2002)

WhitPhil,

The only Sheduled Task is a 2AM virus scan everynight while I sleep. That's the only thing.

That HF stuff is a HideFolders freeware program that I have "wrapped" in some folders I named so my kids might be afraid to click on(eg. "Uninstall Windows98se"). I've got some important work files I can't lose....that's just where I keep them away from being messed with.

Joe


----------



## Rollin' Rog (Dec 9, 2000)

Have you tried disabling that screen saver?


----------



## joeAgain------ (Mar 13, 2002)

No, I haven't lately. But I'll try that now, Rollin' Roq.

Byteman, I have updated my BIOS(I think you asked before)

You also mentioned a possible motherboard problem. I'm WAY pass the warranty period on returning it. But is it possible I pushed too hard putting RAM sticks in and out a bunch of times, and also with that 64Mb video card I tried so many times to get to work? How would a motherboard act if I had cracked it or something?

Joe


----------



## joeAgain------ (Mar 13, 2002)

Rollin' Roq,

Do you think a stock(came with computer)Microsoft very simple type screen saver could degrade an idle system?

Joe


----------



## Rollin' Rog (Dec 9, 2000)

Well, it really shouldn't if you have adequate memory installed; but some screen savers, even MS ones can have compatibilty problems. There are a lot of factors involved, from DirectX to Video drivers. It's worth disabling them to find out.

The strangest problem I ever had with my pc had to do with Windows screen savers. When left enabled they would seem to corrupt the video drivers. I had to keep reinstalling them. I got failed downloads, illegal operations opening and closing folders, freezes, out of memory errors. etc. Things, even now I would not associate with screen savers or video drivers. Only when I disabled the screen saver did I have to stop reinstalling the video drivers to correct the repeating issues.


----------



## joeAgain------ (Mar 13, 2002)

Ok Guys,
I've been running a test here for the last 5 hrs or so.

I've been browsing around, downloading music videos and MP3 songs, etc.(all the usual stuff that I do). The system has been slowly degrading to the point where my clock is now 20 mins slow, pages load very, very slowly, the mouse pointer is getting pretty jerky and hard to control on the screen,...I have to click on things 2 or 3 times for it to work(and when I do, I hear a very rapid echo of clicks...maybe 6 in "machine gun" fast tempo).

And ALL the time I've had TaskInfo running....and have been watching it periodically. My CPU has never gotten below 81% (even during the heaviest use)idle, usually fluctuates near 92%.

Very odd. Those levels don't show my system being stressed at all! But it sure is acting like it.

What the heck is going on!??

Any thoughts?

Joe(confused)


----------



## Rollin' Rog (Dec 9, 2000)

Have a look at the "In Memory" column of Taskinfo. Which running tasks show the largest "In Memory" values, and how much are they? Also, what is the value listed for "File Cache" in kb in the right hand pane?

Also, here's a little tweak that might help some if you haven't already implemented it. Go to System Properties > Performance > File System and set the "typical role of this computer" to "network server"

By the way, do you hear or see the disk drive "paging" alot when this is happening?


----------



## joeAgain------ (Mar 13, 2002)

Morning Rollin' Roq,
I wish I had seen your reply last night when things were getting bad.

I did a little bit of what I did yesterday afternoon this morning as I watched those parts of TaskInfo, but things aren't getting glitchy yet and I don't know if it will tell us anything yet.

The things that used the most "In Memory" were Internet Explorer for the 3 pages I had open. Their levels varied between 11,000 and 21,000Kb each.

The "File Cache" level got to 170,400Kb and was rising at the time I ended this mild test.

I imagine those levels were much higher last night when I was working things harder, but I'll have to check them again when the glitchiness starts and let you know what they show then.

The next highest thing for some reason was Internet Explorer which got to above 9,000. Why is that?

I'm glad you know about TaskInfo. And can help me look at things there. I figured with ALL the things it monitors, there are answers there if I only knew what to look for. But I don't and only looked at the CPY usage and idle levels.

What other things there should I be looking at when this problem of mine starts?
(and I'm not familar with my hard drive making any "paging" sounds. What does it sound like?)

Are you "here" this morning?


----------



## Byteman (Jan 24, 2002)

Rog lives in California, and must be resting- the sounds could be just like any disk activity- clicks, clacks, like they make when "doing" something. Some that are really thrashing bad, this will be long and loud, while things seem to be slow to come around- Windows is accessing things on the hard drive, as RAM will or cannot handle the calls for data. A lot of drives just don't make much sound at all, you can tell it's active when the LED lights blink or stay on a lot- to correspond with a keyboard or mouse command, or by itself. That's what they want to know- does it just take off by itself, or how does the Hard Drive respond to commands- really responsive like the data was coming from RAM, as some should, recent data that is, and how long and hard does it seem to have to "look around" for the data. Hope this helps. I will be here some, and out later, on call today.


----------



## Rollin' Rog (Dec 9, 2000)

Well that 170mb figure for File Cache (which is Vcache -- real memory file caching), seems rather high to me -- over 40% of your installed ram. In theory this is supposed to avoid excessive disk access, but it may not be working in practice as it should in theory. This is something Whitphil might want to comment on, he is better versed in these Windows processes than anyone I know. I know Whitphil doesn't believe in these things, but every once in a while I will use a 3rd party program to "free" locked memory. What it does is force Windows to reduce the Vcache file -- this results in it being "rebuilt" so that it may contain a more efficient store of what Windows needs.

And the figure for IE also seems high, but I can't really compare it with my operating configuration which is very different from yours.


----------



## WhitPhil (Oct 4, 2000)

The "large" size for vcache would be "normal" if Joe is running large files, like the MP3s, and there is still adequate free memory. Windows will shrink the cache when it needs more memory to run something.

There still could be an issue with the cache being that large. I have seen a couple of posts indicating issues above 256 and below 512, where windows, for some reason, is slow to shrink it back. When/if this occurs, I would expect to see a lot of disk activity, as windows starts to move stuff to the swapfile instead of reducing the cache.

BUT, on an "idle" machine, the cache should be nowhere near that size. Well, if it was that large before you shut everything down, it will stay that size, but that shouldn't cause any slowdowns.

Joe, you could run SYSMON and monitor unused physical memory, swapfile "in use" (not size), Disk Cache size and Kernel Processor usage.

Under "normal" usage, look at the graphs and get a "feel" for what the "norm" is. Then on a slowdown, see if there are dramatic differences. When you are doing this, don't run TaskInfo. You don't want 2 monitors active.


----------



## joeAgain------ (Mar 13, 2002)

Hi Guys,

I was away for awhile. I see your replies above, but let me tell you what I'm trying now. And please tell me what you think.

I've been trying a new test. I went into msconfig and unchecked "Load Startup Group Items", and rebooted. I then only activated my Norton AntiVirus and my BlackIce firewall. I've been running things that way for about 20hrs now. The clock never fell behind(during moderated use) until 2 hrs ago when I started another "typical heavy use test". It is 10mins behind now. The mouse pointer is VERY jerky when pages are(now)slowly loading and I'm downloading, but when not, it moves freely and smoothly(when not browsing/downloading, etc).

The IE icon in top right corner now makes about 10 stops before making one full revolution. 

When browsing and downloading I do hear frequent(every 3 sec.?) activity quiet sounds from my HDD. Sometimes soft "double clicks".

I've tried a little utility to free up RAM just now...and that did not help any.

TaskInfo shows my "FileCache" at 299,300.

So if I only have those 2 things running in the background, it is either one of those things, or something else not related to background programs, Right? 

What do you think now? Is anybody "here" now?

Joe(please remind me again, if there is another test you suggested that I forgot to do....I'll try that SYSMON in a few minutes)


----------



## joeAgain------ (Mar 13, 2002)

I've been doing some just mild browsing and emails while waiting for your replies, and notice that my FileCache number seems to have dropped to 284,384 for some reason, but the "Other Locked Kb" number to the right of it is rising. At 4Kb every 5 seconds(presently at 56,522Kb and rising at that rate.)

Even with no pages open but this one and doing nothing on my computer, I sit and watch it rise 4 or 5 seconds.

Why is that?
(and whenever I click on the "edit" button above, I hear 7 or 8 very, very rapid "machine gun" click 'echoes" instead of the usual just one click)why?


----------



## WhitPhil (Oct 4, 2000)

Joe:

Do Start > Run > System.ini

Scroll to the [386Enh] section and post back the lines (if present)
MinPagingFileSize
MaxPagingFileSize
ConservativeSwapUsage
MaxPhysPage

Then scroll to the [vcache] section and post back the lines (if present)
MinFileCache
MaxFileCache
Chunksize

How big is the Other Locked Kb number?


----------



## joeAgain------ (Mar 13, 2002)

WhitPhil, Hi

here's what they show:

[386Enh]
;Rem TShoot: 
MinSPs=8
ebios=*ebios
woafont=dosapp.fon
mouse=*vmouse, msmouse.vxd
device=*dynapage
device=*vpd
device=*int13
device=*enable
keyboard=*vkd
display=*vdd,*vflatd
device=*combuff
device=turbovcd.vxd
EMMExclude=C000-CFFF,C000-CFFF,C000-CFFF
Paging=on
MinPagingFileSize=392704
PagingDrive=C:
ComBoostTime=2

vcache has nothing after it. but I think Norton Defrag has allocated about 2,500,000kb for it from what I see when I do it(Norton Defrag)and on TaskInfo

joe---other locked no. presently 58,394


----------



## WhitPhil (Oct 4, 2000)

Your minimum swapfile is astoundingly large, 392MEGS!!

I don't think this should be causing any issues, other than needlessly consuming diskspace, but....

Try the following

Replace the MinPagingFileSize line by
MinPagingFileSize=120000

and in the [vcache] section add a line
MaxFileCache=200000

Do the MinPaging one first, save the file

Then, restart to DOS and at the prompt enter

*del c:\win36.swp*
*del c:\windows\win386.swp*

Two commands, each followed by the {enter} key

Restart to windows

Run this way for a while and see if there is any positive affect.

If no change, go back to System.ini and add the MaxFileCache line
Save, exit, reboot

See if there are any differences.

**The MinPagingFile should create a contiguous swapfile with a size of 120MBs. This is not necessarily the correct one for your config. After doing the testing above, you want to run SYSMON, monitoring the swapfile *size* as you run your normal apps. Take the largest size monitored, add 20MBs and use that as the MinPagingFile.
The cache setting will place an upper limit on the file cache at 200MBs.
You "could" do both of these together, but if all of a sudden everything is fine, we won't know which change was the solution.


----------



## joeAgain------ (Mar 13, 2002)

Ok, WhitPhil

I'll do those.

But I think we've eliminated that a software conflict is causing my problem, Right?

Since this is still happened with NO programs except Windows(and NortonVirus and firewall) running for the last 18 yrs.

Right? Do you agree?

(the FileCache No. is now down to 260,920 and the "other Locked KB" is now at 63,052. What is that all about?)


----------



## joeAgain------ (Mar 13, 2002)

Ok, WhitPhil

I set those levels.

But are you sure you wanted MaxFileCache?(did you mean MinFileCache?)

I thought we read that article that said to set the Min. and let Windows handle the Max.

????


----------



## WhitPhil (Oct 4, 2000)

For the swapfile, you set a MIN and no MAX. That is the MinPagingFileSize parameter.

For the file cache(vcache), on a windows 98 system, there is generally no need to do anything with the parameters, until you get to 512MB or more of installed ram.
Here, you want to put an upper limit on how big the cache grows. This parameter is MaxFileCache.

And, I didn't want you to change both at the same time. 
The swapfile changes first, run for a while. If no difference, then the vcache change.


----------



## joeAgain------ (Mar 13, 2002)

Oops, Ok....I'll take the vcache Max. setting back out.


----------



## WhitPhil (Oct 4, 2000)

And you did the deletes of the swapfile in DOS? Yes?


----------



## joeAgain------ (Mar 13, 2002)

I took out the vcache setting.

Restarted in DOS, tried both dos commands you gave me. The 1st one(del c:\win36.swp) it just didn't like and never took,..it liked and "took" the 2nd(del c:\windows\win386.swp) Ok.

then I rebooted to windows again.

Why wouldn't it take the 1st command?


----------



## WhitPhil (Oct 4, 2000)

A "windows managed" swapfile lives under \Windows, but generally, once you choose your own settings, the file moves to the root directory (c:\).

I presume you mean by "not taking", that the command returned the message "File not found"? 
This is all ok. I gave you the 2 delete commands to make sure that the swapfile was deleted regardless of where it was hiding. 

Does this mean that your system seems to be better? Or have you just not been exercising it enough yet?


----------



## joeAgain------ (Mar 13, 2002)

Yes, "File Not Found" is what it said on the 1st one.

Things are always good after a reboot ans I haven't had an opportunity here to test things yet(activities with kids here, etc.). But will do that later and let you know.

What about my question that it looks like it is not be a software program conflict, since My problem still happened after not loading the startup group in msconfig? Do you agree?


----------



## WhitPhil (Oct 4, 2000)

If you mean software other than windows, yeah, I think you can probably dismiss those types of conflicts.

The clock losing time is very strange. And I don't know how to hone in on the cause. My "suspicion" is failing hardware, with windows spending so much time trying to sort out error retries, that it has no time to maintain the clock. Although, I don't know why it takes "time" before this phenomenon starts to occur?


----------



## Mosaic1 (Aug 17, 2001)

These long threads are difficult to both read and follow. If I repeat anything you have already tried, I apologize in advance. I know you do not have an HP. However, I have seen this very problem with several possible answers covered when I have gone to their site for other problems. Have a look at this:
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
This regards the Windows Clock Losing Time: Have a look at these two links.
http://www.hp.com/cposupport/personal_computing/support_doc/bph05702.html
http://www.hp.com/cposupport/personal_computing/support_doc/bph05671.html
Option 1: Disable Advanced Power Management (APM)
Disable Advanced Power Management and configure Windows to manage it. Follow the steps below to perform this task.

Disable the CMOS APM. 
Restart the computer and press F1 at the blue Hewlett-Packard screen. 
Press the RIGHT arrow key to select Power or Power Management. 
Use the UP or DOWN arrow key to select APM, Advanced Power Management, or Power Savings. 
Press the ENTER key, select Disabled, and press ENTER. 
Press the F10 to select Save and Exit. 
Configure Windows to manage APM. 
Click Start, Settings, then Control Panel. Click Start, then Control Panel if using Windows XP. 
Double-click the Power Management icon, select the desired settings, then click OK.
Option 2: Remove and reinstall Realtime clock
Turn the computer on and press the F8 key repeatedly every half a second until a menu appears. 
Click Start, Settings, then Control Panel. 
Double-click the System icon. 
Click the Device Manager tab. 
Click the plus sign (+) next to System Devices. 
Click System CMOS/Realtime Clock to highlight it, then click Remove. 
Restart the system and the Realtime clock will reinstall automatically.


----------



## joeAgain------ (Mar 13, 2002)

Mosaic1,
Thanks.
I went into my BIOS(with a DELL, you press "delete" at the DELL screen), and disabled the Advanced Power Management. It was already done long ago in the Windows control panel, but I didn't know about the BIOS setting(it was "Enabled" before doing what you told me).

I don't think the clock is causing the problem(and if it were only a slowing clock, I wouldn't really care, but it is the accompaning very slow performance and glitchy mouse that I don't like). I think it is only a byproduct or symptom of some other problem, so I didn't choose Option 2.

Now since I restarted the computer, it will be a few hours of use before the slowdown and glitchiness get noticable. I'll be going to bed soon, I'll check it in the morning and do another "test".

Thanks, guys


----------



## joeAgain------ (Mar 13, 2002)

Good Morning, Guys
It's Monday morning and I'm at work now(not in front of my "problem" home computer), but before I left for work I ran another test of usual heavy downloading and surfing.

The system was only slightly slow(2 mins) from being up all night, but by the time I left to come to workafter the heavy test, my clock was reading 14 mins slow!

(again, I really don't care about the clock thing, I have an atomic clock program if I want to bring it up to the correct time, it just happens at the same time the real problems manifest themselves and THOSE are the ones I want to fix)

, and things were again VERY glitchy and slow after an hour and a half of heavy use testing. I could barely get the mouse pointer on anything with Great effort because it was SO jerky(and there was a 4 sec. delayed response once I did manage it and most times it took more than one click to work after clicking on anything,... and pages, etc. were very, very slow to load.

So, it appears that what "we" did has made no real improvement on this problem.

I checked the SYSMON and No swap files were in use.

What now? I hope someone has some good ideas, Please?(this is so elusive and aggrevating) I am getting very discouraged that with all the knowledge and experience everyone is helping me with.....nothing is getting at the root of my problem evidently.

What can it be?? Are we back to an IRQ or COMM Port conflict?

Joe
(I found a freeware program from a gaming website that is supposed to make mouse pointers move much smoother by increasing the "sample"(refresh"?)rate MUCH higher than Windows defaults for PS2 mice, at:
http://www.freedownloadscenter.com/search.php3?q=ps2rate

I'll try this when I get home. I don't think it is the root of my problem, but am wondering if it will help)


----------



## griffinspc (Nov 16, 2001)

I apologize Joe, Like Mo I don't have the will to read the entire thread. One thing that is very UNcommon, in fact I've never seen it in a PC power supply though I'm sure most never have the problem, do you, WhitPhil and Rog since you're taking the lead on this, think he may have a power or electrical leak?

I'm going to assume that you've touched on PW supply, heat, etc., but what if his monitor is leaking or drawing too much energy over a period of time. The PWS would read 110 constant but would be actually having a drain through the system.

It's early so that's a lousy way to explain it but in short, can he substitute a monitor for a thorough test. That would be the most likely to me since it draws a fair amount of juice and yes it could be drawing juice even if switched off.

I don't want to throw a monkey wrench into the mix so Joe, wait for Rog and WhitPhil to agree or disagree before you take a detour from their path. I've had that happen and completely screw up where I was heading on a thread.


----------



## slipe (Jun 27, 2000)

I dont think what you are experiencing is all that unusual. Ive read many posts by people who said NTFS systems were far superior to Win9x/ME because they didnt have to reboot all the time. Im not saying it is normal to have to reboot  just common. It should be fixable. I agree with you that the clock slowing is just a symptom.

I would also beg forgiveness if Ive missed something in this long thread and wouldnt be unhappy to have my thoughts vetoed.

If it gets bad over time something might be hogging resources. Put the resource monitor in your start-up group and watch to see if low resources relate to the problem.

My personal favorite for monitoring resources is TclockEX. You can set it to give a constant 2 digit readout of your resources to the left of the clock. With a constant digital readout you can keep pretty good track of what is using resources and what isnt returning on shutdown what it took at startup. http://users.iafrica.com/d/da/dalen/tclockex.htm I removed the year and seconds to make it more compact. The bar across the top is CPU use and the bar across the bottom is RAM use. The CPU use bar is handy but the RAM includes cache and could be misleading as it is fine for all of it to be used most of the time. Just put a S in front of the clock properties to get a system resources readout. No need to mess with TclockEX if your resource meter is half full when you start experiencing problems.

Have you updated Black Ice Defender? Do you have all of the updates and service packs for your version of Internet Explorer? Does the slowdown occur if you dont use your file sharing program? Cnets CatchUp will tell you what updates and patches are available for about everything on your computer including software: http://downloads-zdnet.com.com/3000-2094-8581683.html I suppose PC Pitstop and similar sites do as well but CatchUp is fast.

The reason your cache decreased is that programs needed the RAM and took it from the cache. Locked RAM is that which is being used by Windows or programs and is not available

Systems where things are often tried and uninstalled or lots of stuff is added often slow and become unstable over time despite your best efforts to keep it clean. Ive seen it referred to as OS decay. It seems a family computer being used by kids of any age would benefit from a format and fresh Windows install from time to time. If you have a way to back up your stuff the HP restore CD has a good chance of putting things right.


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## joeAgain------ (Mar 13, 2002)

Griffinspc,
I'm not sure if I understand what you said, but I replaced my monitor with new one(not refurbished)a week ago.

Slipe, 
But I think having to reboot every 18 hrs...is a little much, don't you?

We've run Resource Monitors and found that even under heavy downloading and broswing(when the problem aggrevates), my CPU is in a range of 95% to 82% idle.

Yes, I've got the latest BlackIce update(about 2 weeks ago).

Have All the microsoft Product Updates including any for browsers(I'm using IE6)

I did a reformat and rebuild job on my complete system a year ago, because my computer was acting just like this...now it is no better.

?????
(I'll try the CNet's CatchUp when I get home)


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## slipe (Jun 27, 2000)

I run my Win98SE system 24/7 for weeks if I dont have to reboot for something else like an install. I would fix it if it were otherwise. I said *Im not saying it is normal to have to reboot  just common. It should be fixable.* Just because something is common doesnt mean it should be tolerated.

Your resources have nothing to do with your CPU use. Start>Programs>Accessories>System Tools>Resource Meter. It will sit in your tray and give a rough graph of your resource use. If it gets to less than half it should be addressed. Your computer will run with low resources but usually gets screwy around 15% or so. The resource meter will tell you whether low resources are associated with your problems. You can hover the cursor over the meter and the tooltips will give digital readings.

You said you did a fresh install a year ago. Was it doing what it is now after the fresh install or did it gradually get that way again? If it was a year ago with several people including kids using it you might be due again if it fixed it for a while the first time.


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## WhitPhil (Oct 4, 2000)

Joe:
You have Norton 2002 installed (utilities, etc)?

Run Norton, Utilities, Troubleshoot, Diagnostics (path from Norton 2000).

And run the System Checks. You may as well do them all, but specifically, Memory, video, & systemboard and see if anything is detected.


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## joeAgain------ (Mar 13, 2002)

Ok, WhitPhil

I have everything in the 2002 SystemWorks bundle. I don't remember a troubleshoot/diagnostics scan. But I'll look for it.

And 'll do that in about 2 hrs. when I get home.

I don't have the "Pro" version. Are you talking about that?

Joe


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## WhitPhil (Oct 4, 2000)

No. Mine is just Systemworks.


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## joeAgain------ (Mar 13, 2002)

Do we have Troubleshoot/Diagnostics on 2002 SystemWorks?

I've used the Norton Utilities/Find and Fix Problems/Norton WinDoctor function frequently, but I'm not familiar with "Troubleshoot or Diagnostics".

Where are they?

Joe
(and what do you think of that PS2rate program? Do you think it would help?)


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## WhitPhil (Oct 4, 2000)

From the 2000 version the path is
Run SystemWorks > Norton Utilities > Troubleshoot > Norton Diagnostics

You can try Ps2rate is you want but I don't think that is your problem. (unless your mouse is FUBAR!!!)

When the system started to slow last time, there were no noticeable differences in any of the things being monitored in Sysmon?


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## joeAgain------ (Mar 13, 2002)

If you mean swap files needed and being used, then no.

No swap files were "In Use".

Is that what you mean, WhitPhil? 

So I guess there is no point in setting the next step you told me about before, if under heavy use it is not using any swap files while the problem is occuring, Right?

(I just checked, and the 2002 version of SystemWorks does not have that diagnostics check, unfortunately. Tell me what it's supposed to do....maybe I can find some other program that will do the same thing)


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## WhitPhil (Oct 4, 2000)

Go ahead and make the MaxFileCache change. That has nothing to do with the swapfile. This is a memory file cache.
BTW Please do the steps as recommended, or at least indicate that you have not. Otherwise, I (and other people) will assume that you have, and none of the suggestions are working.

I'm surprised that SystemWorks doesn't have diagnostics. Essentially the modules "test out" video, ram, modem, sound, etc to try and detect hardware failures.

Perhaps someone can recommend a good general diagnostics app.


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## Rollin' Rog (Dec 9, 2000)

pcpitstop gives quite a detailed rundown. I'd wait until performance is degrading before going there. Or better yet, try running the test before and after.

http://www.pcpitstop.com/


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## joeAgain------ (Mar 13, 2002)

WhitPhil,

Yes, I wish 2002 SystemWorks had those diags too.

Ok, but I'm running now on 384Mb RAM. Didn't you say earlier that Max vcache settings were only needed if you had 512Mb or higher?


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## WhitPhil (Oct 4, 2000)

Yes, that is generally the only time you need to put a cap on the file cache. 
But, I have seen posts that "indicate" trouble (sometimes) above 256MBs. So to take the file cache out of the equation, I would recommend putting in the MaxFileCache=200000.

At a later date, if we ever solve this issue (and it's not file cache related, obviously), you can remove the line.


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## joeAgain------ (Mar 13, 2002)

Ok WhitPhil,

I'll add that setting to my vcache in SYSTEM.INI.

Something weird happened. I checked and found my computer was listed as being used as a "Multimedia...", instead of a "Network Server" as you and others had mentioned. I know I had it that way before, but somehow it got changed. I reset it back to being a "Network..." and found that now when I download, etc. SYSMON shows I have 10M swap files 'In Use".

So I'll set that level, plus as you gave me.

ALSO...Many people (on other boards and mentioned here too)have said that a faulty or failing motherboard can cause this. 

I think I've asked this before, but do you or anybody know of a good(freeware...email it to me, maybe, if not?)diagnotic tool to stress a motherboard to find IF there could be part of my problem?

joe


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## joeAgain------ (Mar 13, 2002)

Well, I guess I've exhausted all your ideas on this.

I want to thank you all for putting so much effort into trying to help me.

I guess(unless I can get a program to test my motherboard hard, and tell me if it has a problem)....then I'm faced with just deleing my HDD and starting over with a rebuild.

(I thought about it and was wrong, it was only 6 months since I did that before, seems like a year from all the hassel...HaHa)

Anyway, Thank you everybody. If I ever figure this out, I'll be sure to post here saying what it was that was causing this.

Joe


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## Mosaic1 (Aug 17, 2001)

Why don't you find a Tech and have the computer checked out? All this work and aggravation is not worth it. They can test the MOBO and other parts and I don't think it is too expensive.


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## joeAgain------ (Mar 13, 2002)

Yes Mosaic,
I might try that. Although I have been trying to avoid it.


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## griffinspc (Nov 16, 2001)

I did some searching in weird areas last night and came upon this from the Gateway site. It's really long so I edited it and it was posted as a new problem in their issue base with XP installed:

*ISSUE: The computer may appear to slow down after it has been turned on for anywhere from one hour to three days. It does not matter whether the computer is being used or not. *If the computer is left idle, it may appear that the screen saver slows down. Eventually, the computer slows down enough so that it appears to have stopped responding. Sometimes, you can troubleshoot this as a lockup in Advanced Power Management or with the screen saver.

*Choppy mouse movements and lags were also mentioned in the article.*

If this issue occurs, the CPU utilization continues going up. The CPU utilization can be monitored by using Windows Task Manager. In order to monitor the CPU utilization over a long period of time, power management and the screen saver need to be disabled. To access the Processes tab of Task Manager, press CTRL+ALT+DELETE once. In the Windows Task Manager dialog box, click the Processes tab.

*RESOLUTION: Update the firmware of the 5502060 CD-RW drive.*

EDIT EDIT EDIT

Flash the firmware of the NEC 12X CD-RW drive, part number 5502060.

EDIT EDIT EDIT

If the computer is not a member of a domain:

On the Start menu, click Turn Off Computer. 
In the Turn Off Computer dialog box, click Restart.

EDIT EDIT EDIT:

Note: This error also occurs if the computer does not contain a NEC 12X CD-RW drive. 
_____________________________________________

That's it. Now I've never seen an instance where a CD-ROM or DVD could do something like this, in fact wouldn't have believed it if someone told me, but I learned long ago that anything in this world is possible given the right mix of karma (or lack thereof) so.....

I'm almost afraid to post this but since 2 folks on this board have nearly the same problems and are monitoring each other I think I will.

Question you 2: Have either of you installed a new CD-ROM drive or changed the order of master, slave assignments on your machines at about the time this started? I honestly don't remember if either of you mentioned flashing the firmware for your drives.

Remember, this was a Gateway Issue and referred to an XP machine. I'd like to see any of our other folk comment before you do anything; Rog, Mo, WhitPhil, et. al. ?

PS: I'll post this in the other thread too.


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## Jedi_Master (Mar 13, 2002)

Just a thought...

I experienced a simiar issue with my pc ( although I didn't look at the clock to see if it was slow ), and I did pretty much the same thing that was suggested here, and I too ran Sandra with no problems showing up, and to make a long story short the problem ended up being that my CD-RW was going south...

So just as a test can you unplug the power and ribbon cables to the CD-ROM and see if it makes a difference...


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## griffinspc (Nov 16, 2001)

Thanks Jedi, I really almost didn't post that so I'm glad there's some evidence that it actually was a problem and solution other than a manufacturer's Issue Base, I don't trust them all that much since I've seen enough ducking of responsibility to break a ducks neck.


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## joeAgain------ (Mar 13, 2002)

Thanks guys,
Yes, I did replace my CD (it's not an R/W)drive at about the same time(I think).

Like you, I never connected it to causing this weird issue(who would have "thunk" it was related!), but the timing sounds like it was pretty close.

I'll unplug it and see if this problem "goes away"(when I get home), and test it over night...and report back here tomorrow morning.

What were you talking about "flashing" my CD ROM? Is that like updating a driver? (I've "Flashed" my BIOS, but not my CD ROM before)?

Assuming I can unplug and isolated this to it, how do I solve it? Update my CD ROM driver?

Please let me know.....I'm starting to have hope again, finally!

Joe


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## griffinspc (Nov 16, 2001)

Joe, here's brief explanation:

In a CD recorder, firmware is the programming instructions contained on a ROM chip within the CD recorder which tell the recorder how to respond to commands issued by software. Some firmware is flash-upgradeable, meaning that you can upgrade the firmware by running a piece of software on the computer attached to the recorder. Other firmware is coded into non-rewriteable chip, so the entire chip must be changed in order to upgrade the firmware.

You can go to your CD's manufacturer's web site and see if there's an update for your model. It's a small download. I wouldn't do it until you test the theory since adding more changes in the middle of a problem isn't always the best idea. Hope this is it since I read so much finding it I think I'm blingfydesigglidnfg


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## Jedi_Master (Mar 13, 2002)

Just another thought...

And griffinspc your welcome ( although I didn't see your post untill after I finished mine )...

Anyway I am just curious, is the CD-ROM on it's own IDE channel or is it Master or Slave to the Hard drive ??

If it is on it's own IDE channel disregard what follows...

The reason that I ask is that most of the newer drives are UDMA capable and they have a special ribbon cable which is a 80 conductor as opposed to a 40 conductor standard cable, and if the issue started as a result of the CD-ROM install did you use the cable that was with the CD-ROM ( standard 40 conductor ),
or the on the Hard drive ( possible 80 conductor )...


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## joeAgain------ (Mar 13, 2002)

I don't know which cable was used. A relative installed it for me.

How can I tell to get the answers to those questions? (own IDE channel, master/slave, 40 or 80 conductor cable?)

joe
(this is awesome help, guys. And Griffinspc, I can't thank you enough for staying up late search obscure sites to come up with this! I'm sorry if it drove you crazy, I think I'm about to get sane again from what you've done for me)

Thanks SO Much!


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## Jedi_Master (Mar 13, 2002)

You will have to take the cover off of the pc and look at how the ribbon cable to CD-ROM is connected if it is on the same cable as the hard drive then is is either Master or Slave to the hard drive if it is plugged in to a seprate connector on the mother board then it is on it's own IDE channel, the 80 conductor will have a blue connector on one end and a black connector on the other end with a grey connector in the middle...


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## joeAgain------ (Mar 13, 2002)

Awesome, Jedi!

Thanks, going home now....will get back to you guys later.

joe
(Yippeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee!!!!)


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## Jedi_Master (Mar 13, 2002)

Just a suggestion...

When you unplug the ribbon cable unplug the main power from the pc first...

Also another thought while the case is off and you have unplugged the cables look around and see if there is a lot of dust as it could also be heat related, and while the case is off and you have had the look around power up the pc and check the fans to see if they are working especially the one on the CPU...


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## joeAgain------ (Mar 13, 2002)

Hi guys,
SUCCESS(partially)!! I hate to qualify that, but I need to.

I am SO very pleased with what I found, but still have something going on.

When I got home, I shutdown my computer and disconnect that replacement CD drive. My system stayed fast and responsive without mouse glitches all afternoon thru a "moderate" test of downloading, surfing, etc. and never lost a minute of time! I was(and am)Very pleased.


((( And a side note here about a clue I had dismissed as not possibly being a CD drive issue: I have posted asking for the name of a free utility to "stress test" my motherboard, when I was starting to think that was it. Because I knew they existed and had actually used one from DELL, that evidently worked shortly after this whole problem started(or accelerated noticably anyway)after replacing that CD drive. But I didn't believe it's results.

It is an 8 hour HARD test of all the hardware on a system, but I doubted the reported results because the ONLY thing it came up with....was something about my CD ROM not working! And of course not making the connection that you informed me of, Griffinspc...I thought the diag was faulty. Because the one thing I knew about my hardware was that that new CD drive definitely DID work. But the report didn't say anything about it conflicting with anything...or I might have made the connection. )))


But it appears that I had multiple problems(hopefully, the other thing(s) is(are) more "mainstream" than this very odd CD drive situation), because even though overnight the clock was only about 2 minutes slow when I got up(which I consider a success and trivial), after doing a "heavy test" of downloading, etc. the problem came back in a pretty similar way.

After 3 hrs of "heavy testing", my clock was 30 mins behind. And things were incredably slow and glitchy again while loading webpages, etc. I(as before) had to click on things 2 or 3 times for them to register, and my mouse pointer was extremely jerky and hard to control again. That all sounds identicle to the performance degredation I had before, BUT when nothing was loading or downloading, the pointer moved freely and smoothly.....for 3 seconds, then halted for 1 sec., then again was free for 3, froze for 1, etc., continuously(instead of jerking badly ALL the time, before removing the CD drive conlict from the issue.

I wonder what is happening every 3 seconds to freeze it? I checked SYSMON and TaskInfo, but got no coinciding clue. Any thoughts on what in to look at in TaskInfo's awesome amount of data?

SYSMON showed I only had 3Mb of swap files in use. That doesn't seem like a reason for severe glitchy slowdown of performance, does it?

I intensionally had very little stuff running in the background during the whole time.

What should I look at now guys? 

Please help get me ALL the way thru solving this problem, OK Guys?

Gratefully, Joe
(and Jedi_Master, thanks for the ideas, but my CPU fan works very well and there is no dust accumilation that I could spot in the case after blowing it out a couple months ago)


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## griffinspc (Nov 16, 2001)

Before you go any further, and by the way congrats on sticking with this and not blowing the thing up, were you able to find a firmware update at the manufacturers site?

I ask because sometimes as you've seen, one problem can mask others. With your results of a significant improvement I would consider either udating the firmware or completely uninstalling that CD-ROM and replacing it before going much further.

One problem at a time. If you want to just continue on that's OK but give it a little thought and then post back. We'll go forward either way if you want.


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## joeAgain------ (Mar 13, 2002)

Griffinspc,
No, I have not checked on the firmware yet, but I will before I plug it back in and use it again. It was a gift and I don't even know the make or model it is yet(and my relative doesn't remember). I'll need to pull it out and see what it says on th case. If I can't get the correct firmware for it(my relative didn't install any new firmware with it, he just put the thing in and fired it up! Darn!)...I'll replace it with a CD R/W unit(it's just a plain CD ROM now). 

Thank you for the "congrats". You are most generous considering it was you that found that info for me. 

But even though I'm please with ANY progress in these aggrevating problems, I was/am disappointed that except for it not degrading while idle, the main issue is still there. Severe degrading, severe mouse pointer jerking, severe clock slowing(10 mins an hour) under heavy use.

So to answer your last question: Yes, I'm still hoping to solve those unresolved significant performance problems with your help(although I think we have made progress)....and I VERY much appreciate your offer to stick with me on it.

Ok, what do we try now, good friend?
Joe


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## griffinspc (Nov 16, 2001)

Got to go now and pick up new glasses so I'll check back. Thanks for the kind words. ImaynotbeabletotypewhenIgetbackbutthathasn'tstoppedmeyet


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## joeAgain------ (Mar 13, 2002)

HaHa, OK
Since we've illiminated the complication of the other CD conflict issue, I think I'll go back and try one of the things I tried but had no success with before.....going into msconfig, unchecking "Load Startup Group" and do a clean boot. Then activate my Norton virus protection and give it another hard download/surf test again.

Are there any things in TaskInfo...or another type monitor you want me to watch while I do it?

Any other suggestions on our next thing to do? (assuming you can see the keyboard when you get back....chuckle!)

joe


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## Rollin' Rog (Dec 9, 2000)

In msconfig > Advanced, you might want to try checking the following setting:



> EMM Exclude A000-FFFF
> As Windows 98 manages its memory, it continually scans for unused memory space. However, this scanning can interfere with certain devices that use some of the same memory addresses. If you suspect that a device that's using memory space that Windows is scanning is causing your problem, you can use the EMM Exclude A000-FFFF setting to prevent Windows from trying to scan for unused memory address space in the section of memory between A000-FFFF--the most likely location that such a device would use. In addition, this setting disables the RAM and ROM search instructions for the memory address space.


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## joeAgain------ (Mar 13, 2002)

Interesting, Rollin' Roq

I'll try that.

But what does this mean:
"this setting disables the RAM and ROM search instructions for the memory address space"

Does that mean that the system uses it's RAM, but doesn't search for swap files? (Forgive the "ignrant" question, my learning curve is steep)


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## Rollin' Rog (Dec 9, 2000)

Here is another explanation, I wish I could clarify it further for you, but don't know much more than what I am quoting:


> EMM Exclude A000-FFFF: Checking this setting will prevent memory conflicts between adapter and system ROMs and programs running in expanded memory (mostly games). If you're not a gamer, you probably have nothing to worry about, because only ancient DOS apps use the expanded memory scheme. If checking this setting fixes your problem, you can either leave it checked (which will take memory away from non-Windows applications), or try to identify the conflicting memory range(s) by first unchecking this box and then adding the line EMMExclude=C400-C7FF E000-EFFF to the (386 Enhanced) section of system.ini. You can usually find existing conflicts somewhere within these two ranges, but if you can identify all your ROM and shadow addresses, you'll know specifically what ranges to exclude.


It does not affect the use of the swap file at all. What it does (as I understand it) is free up a little memory and time that might otherwise be allocated to managing "non-windows" applications.


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## joeAgain------ (Mar 13, 2002)

That's great!

I'm really glad you told me this!

Please tell me where you are finding this problem solving info? I'd like to go there and read more tips.

joe


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## Rollin' Rog (Dec 9, 2000)

Those two quotes are from the following sources:

http://msdn.microsoft.com/library/default.asp?url=/library/en-us/dnwinpro00/html/w9p0095.asp

http://www.pcworld.com/resource/printable/article/0,aid,8742,00.asp

There is also an extended, TechNet article here:

http://www.microsoft.com/technet/tr...Net/prodtechnol/win98/reskit/part5/wrkc26.asp

By the way, in the Device Manager Properties page> settings for your Hard Drive, is DMA checked?


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## joeAgain------ (Mar 13, 2002)

Thanks, Rollin'
I'll read those and learn.

I'll have to get back to you on if the DMA checked or not(I'll be in front of my problem home computer after work, in about 3 hrs from now...4:30 Central Time).

Should it be checked, or not?


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## Rollin' Rog (Dec 9, 2000)

For optimum performance it should normally be checked. It might help to toggle it off, reboot and toggle it back on again -- I've seen an odd-ball problem or two fixed by doing that.


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## joeAgain------ (Mar 13, 2002)

Rollin'
Forgive the question, doesn't DMA have to do with the CD ROM?

Since it is currently Unplugged, should it still be checked, should I uncheck it while disconnected(or should I wait until I plug the CD drive back in and my system "sees it" again to have it checked)??
Does that make sense? I'm not sure if I'm saying that clearly.
joe


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## Rollin' Rog (Dec 9, 2000)

Both the CD-ROM and the Hard drive will have DMA mode "switches" if the feature is supported by the BIOS. Some CD-ROM problems can be corrected by Unchecking the feature -- usually issues involving installs and the running of music files. Likewise, it is sometimes necessary to uncheck the feature on the Hard drive to accomplish a troublesome install. I don't know if it might be involved in your problems, probably not -- but toggling it might reset the configuration more efficiently.

I wouldn't worry about it with the CD-ROM at this point if it is unplugged. That whole issue uncovered by Griffinspc (a remarkable "find") is a real oddity; I'd really like to know more about how the "firmware" can affect windows processes when the drive isn't being used.


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## joeAgain------ (Mar 13, 2002)

Ok, I'll do that in Device Manager(But wait until I'm ready to plug it back in to do it, Right? Is that what you are saying?)

I've also seen a DMA enabling or disabling toggle in my BIOS settings too. Should I do the same thing there?

(( Yipeee!! I'm a "Senior Member" now...chuckle))

Rollin'....how do I make and add a cool avatar like yours?( but different of course)


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## Jedi_Master (Mar 13, 2002)

Just a quick question...

Was the CD-ROM connected to the same ribbon cable as the hard drive ??


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## joeAgain------ (Mar 13, 2002)

No, Jedi_Master

It was connected to the motherboard.

Please tell my how that is important?(I have SO much to learn from you guys.

Joe


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## Jedi_Master (Mar 13, 2002)

Well...

My thinking ( for what it is worth ) was that if it was connected to the hard drive, and if after removing the CD-Rom from the cable produced some positive results ( reducing the load from the IDE channel ) then it could possibaly be a damaged ribbon cable ( as it was connected to the secondary channel it is not the case )...

Keep hanging in there as I am sure that someone will come along and help solve it...


Take care, and good luck...


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## Jedi_Master (Mar 13, 2002)

Just as an after thought ( and again for what it is worth )...

If you open the case again, try to reseat the IDE cable on both the mother board and the hard drive as if I am not mistaken the channels are close together, and during the install the cable could have become slightly disconnected...

Just my humble 2 pennies...


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## Rollin' Rog (Dec 9, 2000)

I could be mistaken, but I don't think it's a BIOS issue, so it's probably best to leave well enough alone there. It won't hurt one way or another to uncheck the DMA mode for the CD-ROM now, the whole issue is so strange that you might as well.

As for the Avatar, I found it on the web (a Google > images search) and did a little tweaking using the software here:

http://www.gifworks.com/


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## joeAgain------ (Mar 13, 2002)

Ok Guys,
I'm back finally. And I've(we've)made real progress.

I'm at home today in front of the computer and I've been "heavy testing" the heck out of it. Because that checking EMM Exclude A000-FFFF has kept EVERYTHING working really well for many, many hours of testing!(only slight glitchiness, slowdowns, jerky mouse point, or clock slowdown) Yipeee!

So, the key is in there somewhere. Did you say that had to do with hardware?

How do we find out which and fix it?

Joe


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## Rollin' Rog (Dec 9, 2000)

If that really is a "fix", you can just leave it checked and forget about it, but I think you need to test over a couple of days. I really don't know why that alone would make a major difference, but then the CD-Rom drive behavior is an equal mystery.

I am more inclined to think that the differences you are seeing may be due to differences in the way you are using programs. For example, are you closing out the browser and reopening it during the test? What about other resource intensive applications? Closing them out should free up locked memory and clear the way for a more efficient use of resources.

With much more limited memory than you have, I make a routine practice of closing IE (but not the modem connection) and relaunching to resolve excess disk thrashing after a few hours. The results are not immediate, but the resources get more efficiently allocated after a little further use.


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## joeAgain------ (Mar 13, 2002)

Rollin',
I'm doing the identical stuff I always do during these tests and regular computer use. Except during a "heavy test" I have more pages open and download for longer periods( but not that much more really, that's my pretty normal heavy use). So I'm not closing or opening the browser any differently than usual.

This test was done with that msconfig "EMM Exclude..." box checked AND the "Load Startup Group" box UNchecked(and the only thing I loaded is Norton Antivirus before going on-line)

I'm going to soon(after the couple of days you recommended)start loading 2 more of the usual programs a day, that I was running before, until I can isolate any problems there.

But I have a question, Please. Short of deleting my HDD and rebuilding my system, is there any way to permanently remove some of the check boxes from the Selective startup group? I know of programs that will keep them from loading at startup, but I'd like to actually remove some of those Selective startup boxes for many of those program listed.

Do you or anybody else know of a way to just take them OUT of there?

Thanks,
Joe


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## Rollin' Rog (Dec 9, 2000)

Joe, the ones that you have UNchecked in msconfig can be removed permanently (but not uninstalled), by deleting their entries in the RUN- folder of the registry. To do this, run *regedit* and click in order:

Hkey_Local_Machine
Software
Microsoft
Windows
CurrentVersion
RUN-

With the Run- folder highlighted, you should see the unchecked items in the right hand pane. Right click on and delete any you want to permanently remove from msconfig.


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## joeAgain------ (Mar 13, 2002)

Very good Rollin',
I'll do that for some of them(by the way, I haven't been into my Selective Statup Group for many months, what I did this morning was to UNcheck "Load Selective Startup Group"(the whole group in one Uncheck)

What about ones that I may want to startup with again someday. Is there a way to disable them in that same registry place by an "@ ECHO, OFF" sort of thing to "pause them" and not make them active?


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## griffinspc (Nov 16, 2001)

Just going to jump back in here for a quick comment. stayed out till Rog finished this portion.

I wouldn't permantently delete or remove startup entries to exitisting programs. Say you remove the startup for a Norton utility then you uninstall that program. If a portion doesn't load then it may not be uninstalled when you want to do that.

It's not true of every program but some for sure.

In other words I always go in and recheck to load an app portion that I previously unchecked before I uninstall.


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## Rollin' Rog (Dec 9, 2000)

Actually Joe, that is exactly what "selective startup" is for. Mine is a permanent condition for some that I want enabled only very rarely; there are no drawbacks with just leaving items unchecked. Deleting them from the registry is a "housekeeping" issue only, and should not be done unless you are sure you have no further use for them, or unless you have alternate methods of easily starting those programs, such as through a quicklaunch or desktop shortcut.


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## joeAgain------ (Mar 13, 2002)

Well Rolli' and Griffinspc,
I know what you are saying, it's just that in some cases there are 2 or 3 identical items(I don't mean very similar, but identical).

I guess that doesn't cause any problems, Huh?


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## joeAgain------ (Mar 13, 2002)

Another question please, guys

In msconfig, I see that "Diagnostic Startup" button.

THAT looks interesting. What does that do? And would you recommend trying it?


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## Rollin' Rog (Dec 9, 2000)

Diagnostic Startup is an interactive feature which allows you to choose which startup groups to load during the boot process. It's a little like "step-by-step", but used on groups of files, rather than individual ones.

Here's a litttle page about those "duplicates". In most cases checking them all and rebooting will remove "true duplicates".

http://www.westelcom.com/users/rogersr/dups.htm


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## joeAgain------ (Mar 13, 2002)

Rolli',
I'll try that Diag. StartUp in awhile.

But I was reading that link you gave me and noticed the instructions to take out duplicate startup boxes and I tried it,...at the same time(which probably was a mistake)in remembered someone said that having LoadPowerProfile checked was the thing to do, I checked it(actually both of them as the link spoke of there being 2....I had previously Unchecked them weeks ago, and then I rebooted.

Well, it took me a half hour to get my computer out of safe mode. Yes it removed the double checkboxes, but something got all screwed up. I don't want Advanced Power Management. Had to go back into BIOS and disable it.

Please tell me what LoadPowerProfile does. I don't think I want that either. So they are currently Unchecked again as they had been for a long while before. What are they supposed to do?
(I don't really want the monitor to go into standby, or want the computer to tell me it is safe to shut it off....I just want IT to do it when I do a shutdown. Except for things like those(IF somebody wants those)is there a real reason while LoadPowerProfile needs to be checked?

Please let me know.

thanks,
joe


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## Rollin' Rog (Dec 9, 2000)

I can't understand why checking those would cause you to go into safe mode. But if it's any help, I have all Power Managment settings at "never" in the Windows Control Panel Power Management Applet. BIOS APM is enabled, but some settings such as drive spin down, I've modified (don't worry about that).

With those settings at "never", I have permanently Unchecked the Loadpowerprofiles in msconfig. You don't need them.

http://support.microsoft.com/default.aspx?scid=kb;EN-US;q187611


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## joeAgain------ (Mar 13, 2002)

Rolli',

What do you mean by permanently unchecked? That you just never check them?

What does LoadPowerProfiles do anyway?


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## Rollin' Rog (Dec 9, 2000)

When power managment preferences are set for different users they are loaded through one of the loadpowerprofile entries following logon. Before logon default preferences are loaded through the other entry. My preferences ("never" for everythiing) are honored even though I don't run either of those two files (I'm the sole user). I could delete them, but I've just chosen to leave them unchecked. I've never experienced any problems in doing so -- and electricity is dirt cheap in Los Angeles so it really doesn't cost squat to do so.


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## joeAgain------ (Mar 13, 2002)

Ok,
Thanks, I don't want any PowerProfiles either and have dislay advance power settings at "Always On" and "Never" and "Never".

Griffinspc,
I've pulled the CD ROM out to see what kind it it. It's a USDrivers Model 32DY. I've looked on the web for a driver but not found any! 

What was that you mentioned? "Flashing the firmware"? How do I do that? Don't I need something like a driver from the manufactor for that?

Please tell me what to do now.

Thanks
joe


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## griffinspc (Nov 16, 2001)

Hi Joe. I've searched the heck out of USDrives corp and all I can find are references to court action against them. I think they're history. All their web sites are down and there's no forward.

I did find this from eztech:
______________________________
USDRIVES CORPORATION

32DY IDE

Device Type Internal CD-ROM
Interface ATAPI
Spin Rate (Read) 32x
Formats Supported CD-XA, CD-DA, CD-I, Photo-CD, Video CD, CD-Plus
Read
View Top

CONNECTIONS

Function Label Function Label

Digital audio line out CN1 Analog audio line out CN2

ATAPI MASTER/SLAVE

Setting JP1/1 JP1/2 JP1/
Single drive/Master in Open Open Closed
two drive system

Slave in two drive system Open Closed Open

Master/Slave determined by Closed Open Open cable select
______________________________

This doesn't help much for now but you might keep it for reference some other time.

Since I couldn't find a driver or firmware for your drive even on DriverGuide.com which is my favorite location for finding things even for discontinued items, I think you're out of luck. Sorry.


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## joeAgain------ (Mar 13, 2002)

Thanks Griffinspc,
That's about all I found too.

HaHa....did it say WHY they were being sued and went out of business? I wonder if it was for making drives that caused customers problems?

So there isn't anyway to get the driver from them. I wonder if I could possibly get it by a posted request for someone who has this type CD ROM to email it to me?

Please tell me how you "flash firmware" anyway?

joe
(what should I ask for in my post? I'm familiar with driver installation, but not flashing one)


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## joeAgain------ (Mar 13, 2002)

Griffinspc, while I wait for your answers on those....I'll take this opportunity to thank you very, very much for your help and extensive searching that found that incredably oscure connection.

I thank you so very much! I was about to lose my mind on this(HaHa!)

I just now got off the phone with DELL. I ordered a CD-R/W because I've always wanted to burn CDs for backup, etc.

So, I guess I can use it(the CD-R/W) as a CD ROM until I want to burn something, and then replug-in the problem CD ROM just long enough to burn a copy onto it.....and then disconnect it again(to keep that conflict from aggrevating me when not needed)...and use them both that way, Right?

Does that sound workable?

joe
(I can't afford to get 2 new parts now, but will get a good CD ROM later on and give the old one back to my relative)


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## griffinspc (Nov 16, 2001)

Actually you have a silver lining for once. You don't need to plug in / un-plug & replug. You just pick what you want to burn of the original (music or data) let the software you use (most likely Adaptec Easy CD which is now owned by Roxio) or Nero and then the software will prompt you for the original, open the tray, you pop the disk in, it copies your files to the HD, the software prompts you for the copy disk, opens the tray, you pop in the blank disk and it burns it, then either stores the files on the HD for further burns or erases it when finished automatically, at your choice.

As far as flashing the firmware click on search above and type in firmware and I bet you hit 20 references right here with good explanations including probably one of my own. It's real easy for a modem or CD-ROM but don't get carried away when you hit all the references to flashing the BIOS.

Unless you have a real need never flash the BIOS. 1 out of 4 always turns to disaster. If it ain't broke don't fix it which leads me back to your existing drive. If you don't need it and the new drive solves the problems you've had I wouldn't put it back in.

If you do need it and want to advertise for the firmware upgrade just post: Wanted, any firmware update for the USDrives Model 32DY CD-ROM.


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## joeAgain------ (Mar 13, 2002)

Ok cool!

But are there any advantages or disadvantages to having both?

joe
(I did flash update my BIOS about 4 months ago. A friend said when I upgraded from my original 450 Mhz CPU, to my current 850 Mhz....I needed to flash my BIOS. I don't know if it was true or not, but it came out fine anyway. But I don't think I'll risk it again.)


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## griffinspc (Nov 16, 2001)

> "But are there any advantages or disadvantages to having both? "


Once you get into it (burn'n) you may find an advantage in doing on the fly copies. I use a shareware program called CloneCD for that. If you have 2 drives, one CD & one CD-R, then it's very fast and efficient but I wouldn't worry to much about that right now. You'll have all the learning curve you need as you start burning disks.

You don't say what speed your Dell is but if it's new it's probably in the 24 x 16 x 32 range or so. That's more than enough. I use an Acer 12 x 8 x 32 with no problems. Couple things to remember. If you want to burn music, don't burn at the maximum since when you take it out to your car most likely it won't read it. The speed is just too fast. I always burn music at 4x that way I can use it in home stereo, PC at work and my cars.

Last don't get sucked into buying CD-RW disks right now. There is a place for them if you wind up using your disks like a second hard drive but the disks are expensive and you'll waste a bunch at first.

CD-R's are cheap and if you screw up or want to replace it the garbage is only a few steps away.

Now back to your problem for a minute. Even if you get the firmware I would only install the new drive right now so you can proof out your machine with known good equipment. Mixing in something that MAY be a problem will not allow you to know for sure and correct any problems that remain.

Good luck.


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## joeAgain------ (Mar 13, 2002)

Thanks for that, 
Don't worry....I'm going to take it one step at a time with installing these drives(starting with the new R/W unit 1st).

I'll only be using the new CR-RW for a while(once it arrives), making sure everything is running smoothly. But I'll look for the firmware for the old CR ROM and keep it handy(IF....I can find any) until I think I might want to reinstall the old drive too.

The new R/W is an NEC(Mitsubishi) Model 6J118 according to DELL and is a 24x10x40. Thanks for the tips on burning speed. That has always bothered me about writers(some things burned from one machine would not work on the other)....but that was data. Do you have any idea why that would be? Are their any speed guidelines for data, like you mentioned for music?

joe


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## griffinspc (Nov 16, 2001)

Well basically it's the same rules. A data disk burned at 12 on my speed machine will not read on my old test machine with a 4X cd-rom. The technology is just not literally up to speed.

With music it's easy to see. Take a disk that you want to copy and look at the burned area then burn it to a clean disk and look at the area. A lot of times the laser isn't focused fine enough to track the disk.

Now that's my interpretation and frankly I have no idea if it's even close to what really happens. I'm an audiophile but for me duping a disk is for listening in the car and not having to worry about theft, damage or just the hassle of transporting them out of my player to the car and back. It's a pain finding the slots in a deck that holds 300.


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## joeAgain------ (Mar 13, 2002)

Guys........I Hate This!,...but now the problem is Back!!!

I can't tell you HOW Discouraged I am to just now get home and see my clock 50 minutes behind, the mouse pointer totally spastic again...and I timed how long it took to load this responce page...and it took a full 3 minutes!!!

What the Heck(*%#@#&**$!!) can be going on now??????

I VERY much want to reboot to freshen the system up, but I'm holding off until I hear from you guys about what I might look at in TaskInfo..or some other monitor while it is in this degraded condition...that might give us a clue of why.

Can you guys give me a suggestion soon? Please??

Here's a thought. I'm in Texas and it is a hot day. The room is about 82 degrees, and the case is open(has been since taking CD ROM out)...can that make the fans not be efficient enough to cool the CPU or something? These is a large fan on the back of the case, and another one right on my CPU, both running well. Could that be something? Is there a CPU temperature monitor I can bring up(already in TaskInfo or Windows System Tools)that would tell me that?
joe
(here is what's running--TaskInfo was on, but not except while I'm temporarily looking for answers like now)

Kernel32.dll	4.10.2222	Microsoft Corporation	Win32 Kernel core component	C:\WINDOWS\SYSTEM\Kernel32.dll	4.3	Microsoft(R) Windows(R) Operating System
MSGSRV32.EXE	4.10.2222	Microsoft Corporation	Windows 32-bit VxD Message Server	C:\WINDOWS\SYSTEM\MSGSRV32.EXE	4.0	Microsoft(R) Windows(R) Operating System
Mprexe.exe	4.10.1998	Microsoft Corporation	WIN32 Network Interface Service Process	C:\WINDOWS\SYSTEM\Mprexe.exe	4.0	Microsoft(R) Windows(R) Operating System
MMTASK.TSK	4.03.1998	Microsoft Corporation	Multimedia background task support module	C:\WINDOWS\SYSTEM\MMTASK.TSK	4.0	Microsoft Windows
Rapapp.exe	1.0.0.1	Internet Security Systems, Inc.	Rap Protection System C:\PROGRAM FILES\ISS\BLACKICE\Rapapp.exe	4.0	Rap Protection System
Blackd.exe	3.5.40	Internet Security Systems, Inc.	blackd	C:\PROGRAM FILES\ISS\BLACKICE\Blackd.exe	4.0	Network ICE Corporation blackd
Symtray.exe	2002.05.53	Symantec Corporation	Norton SystemWorks SymTray	C:\PROGRAM FILES\COMMON FILES\SYMANTEC SHARED\Symtray.exe	4.0	Norton SystemWorks
Explorer.exe	4.72.3110.1	Microsoft Corporation	Windows Explorer	C:\WINDOWS\Explorer.exe	4.0	Microsoft(R) Windows NT(R) Operating System
Systray.exe	4.10.2222	Microsoft Corporation	System Tray Applet	C:\WINDOWS\SYSTEM\Systray.exe	4.0	Microsoft(R) Windows(R) Operating System
Navapw32.exe	8.07.17	Symantec Corporation	Norton AntiVirus Agent	C:\PROGRAM FILES\NORTON SYSTEMWORKS\NORTON ANTIVIRUS\Navapw32.exe	4.0	Norton AntiVirus
Blackice.exe	3.5.40	Internet Security Systems, Inc.	BlackICE MFC Application	C:\PROGRAM FILES\ISS\BLACKICE\Blackice.exe	4.0	Internet Security Systems, Inc. BlackICE
Rnaapp.exe	4.10.2222	Microsoft Corporation	Dial-Up Networking Application	C:\WINDOWS\SYSTEM\Rnaapp.exe	4.0	Microsoft(R) Windows(R) Operating System
Tapisrv.exe	4.10.2222	Microsoft Corporation	Microsoft® Windows(TM) Telephony Server	C:\WINDOWS\SYSTEM\Tapisrv.exe	4.0	Microsoft(R) Windows(R) Operating System
Ddhelp.exe	4.08.01.0881	Microsoft Corporation	Microsoft DirectX Helper	C:\WINDOWS\SYSTEM\Ddhelp.exe	4.0	Microsoft® DirectX for Windows® 95 and 98
Iexplore.exe	6.00.2600.0000	Microsoft Corporation	Internet Explorer	C:\PROGRAM FILES\INTERNET EXPLORER\Iexplore.exe	4.0	Microsoft® Windows® Operating System
Msinfo32.exe	4.10.2222	Microsoft Corporation	MSInfo32	C:\PROGRAM FILES\COMMON FILES\MICROSOFT SHARED\MSINFO\Msinfo32.exe	4.0	Microsoft System Information


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## Jedi_Master (Mar 13, 2002)

Can you go in to task manager and click on processes and see if there is any thing that is useing an abnormal amount of cpu time ??


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## joeAgain------ (Mar 13, 2002)

where is Task Manager, Jedi?

how do I get to it?(I don't see it in my System Tools)

TaskInfo shows my CPU 95% Idle


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## joeAgain------ (Mar 13, 2002)

I don't know. I saw that before and someone told me that was normal(sounded weird to me)

now my clock is an hour and 10 minutes slow!


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## Mosaic1 (Aug 17, 2001)

joe,
Sorry. I deleted that. It is normal. If you go into msinfo32 running tasks and scroll you'll see that. I jumped the gun without thinking. Sorry. 

I am going to commit heresy again and tell you that I really think you should go and have this computer tested.


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## joeAgain------ (Mar 13, 2002)

there isn't any scroll bar on running tasks.

that is what I copies above.....my running task list. I don't see any amounts of CPU usages listed there (???)


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## Jedi_Master (Mar 13, 2002)

Joe sorry my mistake but task manager isn't availible with W98 ( I am used to NT 2K and XP and sometimes jump the gun )...

But there is a monitor that is bundled with 98 called System Monitor, do you have it installed ??

If you have it installed it should be under System tools...


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## Mosaic1 (Aug 17, 2001)

joe,
I Have scroll bars when I go to msinfo32>running tasks

If I were to copy and paste, the information instead of scrolling would appear on two lines the way yours is.
This is only serving to confuse. It is not really important here.


I am going to drop out and let the others continue. I have seen you all bending over backwards. If it were my computer, I would want to get it bench tested. I would not feel secure running it when I was out of the house and I would want to have it checked. If this is a software problem, it is the strangest one I ever remember seeing on the Forums in the Two years or so I have participated. I do not know everything. I know less than what the others who are here helping you know. I do know that there comes a time when it is wise to seek hardware help. 
I hope you do resolve this. And if you choose to continue and it is resolved I will be the first to say congratulations. Good luck.


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## Jedi_Master (Mar 13, 2002)

Do you still have SISoftware Sandra installed ??

And if the MBO has temp sensors on it Sandra can tell the temp of the MBO and CPU by running the App " Mainboard Information "...


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## joeAgain------ (Mar 13, 2002)

System Monitor shows:

Kernal Usage: 23%
DiskCache: 100K
Locked Cache:150M
Swapfile in Use: 2M
Swapfile Size: 122M


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## joeAgain------ (Mar 13, 2002)

Ok Jedi. Yes I have it and will run that and get back to you.

At the slow speed of this computer now it may take 10 minutes and I have to leave for awhile.

I'll run it while I'm gone and report when I get back.

(now clock in hour and 21 mins behind)


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## Jedi_Master (Mar 13, 2002)

Here are some system monitoring and diagnostic utilities that you might try...

http://hotfiles.zdnet.com/cgi-bin/texis/swlib/hotfiles/info.html?fcode=76948&b=uk

http://hotfiles.zdnet.com/cgi-bin/texis/swlib/hotfiles/info.html?fcode=57346&b=uk

http://hotfiles.zdnet.com/cgi-bin/texis/swlib/hotfiles/info.html?fcode=97176&b=uk


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## joeAgain------ (Mar 13, 2002)

Sorry, personal things kept me from getting back sooner.

I guess I had not reinstalled SySandra since deleting my HDD and rebuilding the system 6 months ago(because of this same problem I'm having now)

So, I never got to see if CPU temp was too high. My feeling is though, that it is something else. Because the room being that warm and having the case open hasn't seemed to have been a problem before.

What do you think, guys?

joe

(And any other diagnostics or other things we can try now?)


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## Irok (Apr 24, 2002)

Reformat you computer and put windows back on and put the internet back working and leave it on overnight and then check it in the morning and if it works properly then put some stuff back on but leave about 1 gig of space free and if that doesn't work get new ram and put it in your computer


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## joeAgain------ (Mar 13, 2002)

Irok,
That is what I did 6 months ago.

And the problem came back.

joe


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## griffinspc (Nov 16, 2001)

Joe, you wrote:
Here's a thought. I'm in Texas and it is a hot day. The room is about 82 degrees, and the *case is open(has been since taking CD ROM out)*...can that make the fans not be efficient enough to cool the CPU or something? These is a large fan on the back of the case, and another one right on my CPU, both running well. Could that be something? Is there a CPU temperature monitor I can bring up(already in TaskInfo or Windows System Tools)that would tell me that? 
joe

Right off the bat you should never run your machine with the cover off for any extended period of time. This actually allows more heat build up in critical areas. The case and fans are set up to draw air in and over the board, memory, cpu and the rest and funnel it out the back. Cool air in and hot air out.

I keep yammering away at a hardware problem and I still believe that it is.

The one fan you don't have that in my opinion would be helpful is a front intake fan. For about $12.00 you can buy and install one. It takes about 10 minutes tops for almost all cases.

If worse comes to worse you can buy a case for about $30.00 to $50.00 with a side mounted exhaust fan. I have one to help cool the 64MB graphics card and a 1.2 AMD Thunderbird, both are hot suckers, and of course the intake fan I mentioned.

The idea above of taking it in and having it bench tested is a good one at this point. Something is wrong but if it were me I'd install an intake first and run it with the case closed. Also neatly bundle all your ribbons and cables so the air flow isn't restricted. Install a heat sensor program, my favorite and it's free is: Mother Board Monitor 5.1.0.7 here:
http://www.majorgeeks.com/article.php?sid=311

Last try this. Go watch about 6 straight hours of sit com TV then realize no matter what's wrong you love your PC.


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## joeAgain------ (Mar 13, 2002)

I just hate to take it down to a shop that I don't know anything about, you know? I've never had to do that, but I may need to. I don't know. It is just so weird to have everything working so well for about 2 yrs and then about 8 months ago....all this started.

Anyway, I looked at that program. Wow, there are a lot of technical settings. I wish the readings screen would stay in my tool bar or somewhere without having to put my pointer on it.

And do I have a setting wrong in the Temperature panel? I've got it set on Fahrenheit. But when I put my pointer on the task tray icon, I get 3 readings saying my CPU temp is.....32 degrees! How can that be saying that?

joe


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## Jedi_Master (Mar 13, 2002)

Could it be reading 32 degrees C and not F ??

And I agree with griffinspc in that it sounds like a hardware issue...

But I still think that there could be something going on with the IDE channels as when you pulled the out CD-ROM there was some improvement, is this correct ??


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## griffinspc (Nov 16, 2001)

> _Originally posted by joeAgain------:_
> *Anyway, I looked at that program. Wow, there are a lot of technical settings. I wish the readings screen would stay in my tool bar or somewhere without having to put my pointer on it.
> 
> And do I have a setting wrong in the Temperature panel? When I put my pointer on the task tray icon, I get 3 readings saying my CPU temp is.....32 degrees! How can that be saying that?
> ...


I know about the reluctance to taking it in but...
I know the detector I recommended is a little complcated to set up but have some patience with it. You can have it stay in the toolbar and give continuous readings.

As to 32 degrees, have you got it set for reporting Celsius temps instead of Fairenheit? Boy now your testing my spelling! Then you have to tell each monitor what to track. One for CPU, one for Power Supply and one for Mother Board.

If that doesn't work for you try some of the others recommended in the above replies.


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## Jedi_Master (Mar 13, 2002)

If you haven't allready tried here is a free utility for testing memory...

http://www.qcc.ca/~charlesc/software/memtester/


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## Rollin' Rog (Dec 9, 2000)

If the system is "idyling" -- not page loading or actively running any media files, that kernel usage is high:

Kernal Usage: 23% 

It really should be under 10%. Mine typically is about 5% with Taskinfo consuming about half of that.

How does Taskinfo break down the usage among processes?

And you might want to try disabling BlackIce long enough to see if it is a factor, I've seen some oddball problems attributed to it in the past.


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## joeAgain------ (Mar 13, 2002)

I'm 100% positive it is set on fahrainheit, but 0% positive since you said that.....that I'm on the CPU page. I'll check when I get home, Jedi. And yes, there was an improvement on unplugging the CD ROM for some reason. That monitor link looked over my head.

Yes, Rolli'n, I don't know why THAT monitor said 23% usage, when a half second before I'd looked at TaskInfo showing 95% Idle (???) And I'll shut down BlackIce


I'll close the case(and turn on the air conditioning...HaHa), Griffinspc. And take a closer look at all the settings.


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## joeAgain------ (Mar 13, 2002)

Good Morning, Guys

Well, it seems the combination of a very warm room, having the case open and system running(idle) all day was my problem...at least I guess. It did not happen yesterday or this morning under very hard testing...Great!

I now turn the computer off over night and during the day when everyone is gone....put the case back together, and we now keep that room cooler. I installed a new 64 Mb graphics card and CD-R/W that DELL sent me....and everything seems quick and good!

Griffinspc....I still would like to have that MBM program you recommended(in case anything flairs up again), but need some help if you wouldn't mind. I only saw a link to download a version 5 of that program, but I see they are advertising version 5.1.0.7?

Where on that page do I download that version?
And would you mind emailing me some screenshots of the most important settings(as you use) to me at [email protected], please? I'm still having trouble setting it up. And I still can't get a continual task tray readout to show up.

I hate to be a pest, Grif. But would that be possible to do for me?

Thank you, Joe


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## griffinspc (Nov 16, 2001)

Glad everythings working and when I get a chance I'll take some screen shots and save them as jpegs and send them to you. No problem.

Now if that thing acts up again I want you to keep a pitcher of ice water nearby and douse it before it locks up, OK?


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## joeAgain------ (Mar 13, 2002)

Yes, thank you....I'm pleased because I think that was the cause and not some inscrutably seemingly unconnected glitch with my sound card(or other freaky thing like with that CD drive before).

Do you think that could have been all it was this last time? THAT is identical to ALL the things I was complaining about when all this started. Could it do the identical things?

joe
(down here in Texas we always have a pitcher of ice tea around, would that do?) 

I VERY much look forward to the screenshot jpegs of the settings you think are worthwhile on MBM, thank you Very Much, Grif


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## joeAgain------ (Mar 13, 2002)

Grif,
What do you think?

Could a pretty warm room, and having the case open while computer ran(on idle) all day cause all those identical problems ?


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## joeAgain------ (Mar 13, 2002)

Griffinspc,
Can that cause the identical problems as before?

(I've been trying to set up MBM, and still only get one thing showing up in my tray....and yes it still says(and stays continually at)...32F. That can't be right))

joe


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## griffinspc (Nov 16, 2001)

Relax Joe. I worked 9 1/2 hrs yesterday then a 3 hour meeting last night. Never got to my PC. Now I'm back at work. Who said life gets better with age  

Now to your question, yes. Overheating can cause all sorts of problems. Your delicate hardware; processor, mobo, RAM, etc. all are designed to run optimally at various temps. Additionally they have to interact with each other so if one is malfunctioning the rest in the chain feel the pain so to speak.

It's the weakest link theory similar to my audio system. You can have the best amp, best pre amp, best speakers, best Kimber cable, best turntable but if you put a $29.95 cartridge on the turntable you get $29.95 music.

So much for your $10,000 system and no, 32F isn'r right so have patience, I'll snap those images and get them to you as soon as I know which way is up in my life. Hopefully tonight.


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## joeAgain------ (Mar 13, 2002)

Ok, will do.

I'm obviously doing something(s) wrong with the settings, because I'm using it both at home and here on my work computer...and on both, the tray is showing 32F.

joe


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## joeAgain------ (Mar 13, 2002)

Guys!

While I wait for you to get back with me on that MB monitor's settings, Griffinspc,....I thought I'd share something "IMM" on this board said about my previous CD ROM problem just now in my other post about needing updated firmware.

That was that it seemed my problem might possibly be a wrong jumper setting more than a need for firmware. And posted some links to DELL sites about IDE jumper settings.

And I can't wait to get home to check it out. I DO remember us setting that replacement to slave(I think), not knowing that the position on the cable automatically determines whether the hardware is a slave or master on DELL systems.

So having the jumper set to slave, when it was in the Master(or very end of the cable)position on the cable,.....could have been causing that coflict and all those other problems, maybe?

So...1)Please let me know what you guys all think, Ok?

I think I'll go home, move the jumper setting to "cable select" and let the position on the cable detemine which it is(without that conflict)

And...2)Also, please tell me....if I want to re-install that CD-ROM(after correcting the jumper setting) for my kids to use for games, and me use muy new burner for my use...which would be best to be Slave or Master?

Thanks,
Joe
(I hope there is a way to fix it by doing this, because I've not yet found anybody with firmware)


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## joeAgain------ (Mar 13, 2002)

Oh shoot!

The jumper is set in the same place the DELL diagram shows as cable select(as it was supposed to be).

I guess I'm back to searching for firmware, Griffinspc (or just giving it back to the relative that gave it to me....who told me it worked fine in his system for a month before upgrading to a faster speed CD-ROM drive.

I thought it was too good to be true, Darn!

joe


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## griffinspc (Nov 16, 2001)

Lets try this again, There are several screen shots here if the board allows it. Remember, my board may have different monitor points than yours Joe but the princilple is the same. I didn't take a shot of all the fans I have since it's kind of redundant but you'll get the idea I think.

Now will the board allow multiple images on on post?

If not I'll email them to you.

Here goes:

Well that didn't work so I'll email them to you. I shrunk the size down to about 20k each so it's real small even for all 11, just 229kb.


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## ace360 (Apr 15, 2002)

Joe,
If your are convinced that its not the battery, I would like to know when was the last time you reformatted the box. With WIN 98 and 384MB of RAM you should not be having these types of problems, unless your registry is damaged. I would say back up you data and open the case up, replace the battery, reseat the processor, memory, fdisk the harddrive, and reformat the box...if it has been longer than six months since the last format. If you then experience the same problem, it's hardware.


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## joeAgain------ (Mar 13, 2002)

Thats exactly what I did 6 months ago...and the problem came back.

As strange as it sounds(we all agree, it's too weird, but true) the main problem was hardware....an offbrand replacement CD-ROM drive that for some reason didn't "mesh well" with my DELL system.

joe


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## joeAgain------ (Mar 13, 2002)

Griffinspc,
Just emailed you back. I've still got 32F or zeros for all readings on Every sensor across the board.

I don't get it.


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## joeAgain------ (Mar 13, 2002)

a footnote here:

It does appear that shutting down BlackIce Deffender does help too. 

It seems to have been a contributing factor in my clock slowdown, jerky mouse, system slowdown problem problem.

Thank you to whoever it was that suggested that(I've had so many knowledgable helpful people contributing their efforts, at this point I can't recall who that suggestion came from), because it also has helped.

Thanks again,
Joe

PS.....does anybody know of a good firewall that won't aggrevate my problem? I think ZoneAlarm also will do this to me, as I have used it before too.

Any others?


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## joeAgain------ (Mar 13, 2002)

I really would like to use a firewall that won't cause that problem.

Again, does anyone know of one that won't?(I think ZoneAlarm also did it to me....but it's been awhile and I'm not sure at this point......and had to delete my HDD to get it off. It just would not uninstall without interfering with my accessing the internet)

thanks


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## Jedi_Master (Mar 13, 2002)

Have you given much thought into switching OS' because XP has a built in Firewall, if not I have some friends that use Nortons personal firewall, and the only complaint that I hear is that it is a bit tricky to setup...


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## joeAgain------ (Mar 13, 2002)

Oh, Yeah....I've thought about it lots. But I have lots of programs I like to use that aren't supported by XP(yet). But I'll keep an eye on them...maybe when more say their updates are, I'll make the switch.

BUT...in the meantime I would like a really good firewall that won't bog down my system, but is really topnotch.

I'll check into Norton, Jedi....any other suggestions of other really goods, anyone?


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## griffinspc (Nov 16, 2001)

Joe, I'm surprised you had trouble with Zone Alarm. Me and millions use it without a hitch except with one annoying feature for the Win95 group if they use the newest edition, which is an error on closing VSMON. Nothing serious just annoying.

Other than that it's always been clean and reliable. I run it on a 98SE, 98 FE and NT machine with no problems.

Did you have it installed while all the other heat related problems / CD-ROM problems existed and over writes of Windows were occurring? That may have been the reason for it's behavior.

If your machine is running OK now I'd try it again with a clean install meaning, 1st completely rid yourself of Black Ice and any other walls you may have left over . Get the latest and greatest and go for it.


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## joeAgain------ (Mar 13, 2002)

Griffinspc,
Yes, I did have it during all those problems, but I can't say now if it contributed to them or not since the performance degradation issue continued after I deleted my HDD and rebuilt my system again.

One of the major problems I had with it was that at first I just uninstalled it, but it left somethings (that RegCleaner could not remove)behind that totally blocked my access to all websites. I had to go to work and download the installation program onto a floppy, then come home and load it on again to get back onto the internet. THAT put a bad taste in my mouth.

I may try it again, but since you use that one I'd like to ask you a couple things:

Have you ever tried to uninstall it and had that happen?

Do you have any idea of how to tell if those popup warnings about "SoAndSoExecutable.EXE is trying to access the internet, do you want to allow it?" ...are related to normal harmless programs, or a trojan...or what?(I will it would list the name of it's main associated program that launched the .EXE, you know?) How do you know if they are harmless or not?


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## griffinspc (Nov 16, 2001)

> _Originally posted by joeAgain------:_
> *Have you ever tried to uninstall it and had that happen?
> 
> Do you have any idea of how to tell if those popup warnings about "SoAndSoExecutable.EXE is trying to access the internet, do you want to allow it?" ...are related to normal harmless programs, or a trojan...or what?(I will it would list the name of it's main associated program that launched the .EXE, you know?) How do you know if they are harmless or not? *


Yes, I have uninstalled it. I uninstalled Ver 2.6 to re-install 2.4 on an old Win95 machine so I wouldn't have that VSMON shutdown problem for some testing.

I didn't have a problem but then I always clean the registry and system.ini after uninstalling Anti-Virus software, Fire Wall software, Utilities like Norton, etc., after using the uninstaller that comes with the program. Most of these really intrusive programs; yes necessary to have, and leave threads everywhere.

By the way, if an uninstaller is in the program group I always use it to uninstall with rather than MS's Add/Remove and lately I never use Add/Remove in Control Panel either. I use Add/Remove Pro exclusivly now. Great program.

As to popups, so and so is trying to access..... That's normal. You'll get one from Zone Alarm itself, Windows Update, your dial up service, your anti-virus and more. Say yes to those with the check mark to always allow. Anything like those music retrieval programs that's the user's choice. I personally don't use them. Once you have a set that you're comfortable with then you can watch the attacks for awhile just to see what's trying to get in and out and then shut off the pop up and let ZA do it's thing.

If you go to ZA's home site there is a lot of reading on how it works and why. If you really want to understand it all I'd do that and also go to Steve Gibson's great site on computer security for the best info out there. You can aklso test your machine from there.

http://grc.com/default.htm

PS: Check the Shields Up page.


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## joeAgain------ (Mar 13, 2002)

Grif,(good to know your ZoneAlarm unistall worked, I've deen similar complaints on a Google search, so I know I'm not alone it it locking out the internet on me.

I do, or have done most of what you suggested. I have Add/Remove Pro, and always clean registry after uninstalling stuff, but tell me about what to do in the SYSTEM.INI file?

And I will checkout ZoneAlarm's website. 

Grif....I wasn't saying those popups were unusual(BlackIce does that too in there last update), I know why it happens. I was just saying a "typical" one would say HVBERTIVC.EXE is trying to access the internet. I never recognized 99% of the executable code names, do you? That's what I'm saying....I wish they would go on to say that it is associated with SoAndSo Program that so I would know more about if I wanted to stop it or not, you know?(the names of the executables are so cryptic and obscure), right?

(I've also liked Steve Gibson's site for a good while since discovering it)


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## griffinspc (Nov 16, 2001)

HVBERTIVC.EXE

If you buy the ZA pro version you can have it instantly accessed and a description presented. Not a unreasonable thing since the folks at ZA should be allowed to make a dime.

I'm just happy it's given away with all it's features so far.

What I do for any file I don't recognize is plug the name into Google and see what it finds. 99% of the time you'll get a hit and you'll know what it relates too.

Of course you sand bagged me on this one since Google found no hits. Cute.


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## joeAgain------ (Mar 13, 2002)

No, Grif....that was just a hypothetical example(yes, I made it up) to illustrate the kind of jibberish "titles" that appear (not straightforward and recognizable)

Are the pay version's responsible program descriptions really understandable enough to recognize the associated launching program? Or are they cryptic too? Do you know?


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## griffinspc (Nov 16, 2001)

Very easy to figure with the pay version but you don't need it. Google searches are just fine for most of us and you don't have to answer the question right then the pop up window will stay open until you respond so take off to google land and search.


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## joeAgain------ (Mar 13, 2002)

Thanks for that, Grif. I'll check into ZoneAlarm again.

But I wonder what it is about the updated BlackIce that was making things glitchy? It did use "some" resources, but with everything shutdown except Norton antivirus, my CPU was averaging about 94% Idle.....and still things would get glitchy and jerky and slow after a few hours.

What do you make of that, Grif? Why?


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## joeAgain------ (Mar 13, 2002)

Would you have any ideas about that, Grif?

And also, I'd still like to know about cleaning out the SYSTEM.INI file. What do you mean? How do you do that? Clean What?


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## griffinspc (Nov 16, 2001)

Glitchy, jerky, etc. As much as I'd like to have all the answers I don't. At this point your machine is running smoothly. Leave well enough alone 

As far as system.ini, occassionaly a program will add lines to that file when it's being installed but when you uninstall the program the lines remain. Most times it's not a serious problem but once in awhile you'll get a message on boot that says something like; Couldn't find the link to a reference to blah blah vxd in the 386 enhanced of system.ini or.... Press any key to continue to load Windows.

That's when you go into system.ini and rem the entry. A word of advice, stay out of there unless you have to edit it.

Have fun with your machine and ZA.


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## joeAgain------ (Mar 13, 2002)

Thanks for all your help getting past those aggrevating problems, Grif.

I really can not tell you how very much I appreciate it.

joe
(I'm still looking forward to the 5.04 MBM zipfile by email when you get time, thanks again)


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