# Solved: Broken Pipe?----Bill?



## ckphilli (Apr 29, 2006)

Hi all. I've got a problem and I'm afraid I won't like the answers I'll get.

Hope Wacor reads this because he seems to be a pro in these matters...not to say I don't appreciate all replies.

Here's the deal...I heard a bubbling sound last night on my porch. It was water bubbling up through a crack. I thought nothing of it because it's been raining so much lately.

So I go out this morning and see steam coming off the water. Ruh ro.

I'm thinking I have a busted water pipe...but I have great pressure and hot water in the house. Please let me know what you think. I've attached pictures of the leak, the water heater and one of the carport room that houses the water heater for perspective.

I appreciate your help.

Chris


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## ckphilli (Apr 29, 2006)

Here are the other 4 pics...


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## wacor (Feb 22, 2005)

Do you have a slab foundation?

City water or well water?

Does the steam mean if you touch the water it is hot or warm?

Looks like there are no valves to the hot water heater to isolate it?


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## ckphilli (Apr 29, 2006)

wacor said:


> Do you have a slab foundation? *Yes*
> 
> City water or well water? *City*
> 
> ...


Thanks Bill


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## wacor (Feb 22, 2005)

what kind of furnace do you have?

Force air or a boiler?


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## ckphilli (Apr 29, 2006)

wacor said:


> what kind of furnace do you have?
> 
> Force air or a boiler?


Gas furnace


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## wacor (Feb 22, 2005)

You do not have a lot of water coming out so that is why you still have pressure. Looks like you have a leak in your discharge side of the hot water. But without any valves on the hot water heater it is a guess. If you had valves you would turn off the discharge and confirm the leak as it would then stop.

I can not get a sense of your layout but it looks like the piping to and from the hot water heater does not go into or out of the floor. 

Is the water showing up on the other side of the wall where the hot water heat is?


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## ckphilli (Apr 29, 2006)

wacor said:


> You do not have a lot of water coming out so that is why you still have pressure. Looks like you have a leak in your discharge side of the hot water.
> 
> I can not get a sense of your layout but it looks like the piping to and from the hot water heater does not go into or out of the floor.
> 
> Is the water showing up on the other side of the wall where the hot water heat is?


No, no water on the other side. It does go into the floor though. If you look at the top of the water heater it goes down through the wall and under the porch. So are you saying you think it's like a return leak?


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## wacor (Feb 22, 2005)

ckphilli said:


> No, no water on the other side. It does go into the floor though. If you look at the top of the water heater it goes down through the wall and under the porch. So are you saying you think it's like a return leak?


Sure appears to be that. I can not think of another source where the water leaking out would be hot.

Is this house a single story with an attic?


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## ckphilli (Apr 29, 2006)

wacor said:


> Sure appears to be that. I can not think of another source where the water leaking out would be hot.
> 
> Is this house a single story with an attic?


Yes...a very small attic...the kind that you have to be on your belly to get through.

Think I should sit on it for a few days? This is beyond me...I do most work around the house but chiseling slabs and heavy plumbing work isn't in my resume.


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## wacor (Feb 22, 2005)

If you can solder I would install a valve on the inlet and outlet of the water heater. I don't like the compression fittings as they can come apart although rarely do.

Normally one installs a valve only on the inlet so they can replace the heater without having to shut off the house supply. But in this case you want to be able to shut off the water leaving the water heater.

Assuming the leak is under the floor then one of two things is happening in my opinion. The pipe has a hole in it right around where it goes thru he concrete or the pipe is defective. 

I have seen a couple of times where copper pipe went bad. It is pretty rare so in all likelihood the pipe was not sleeved where it went thru the floor and that will be where the leak is. 

Assuming you install valves and the water stops then at that point you would break up a bit of the floor just where the pipe goes down thru it. If you see the leak there then you know what to do. 

If it is further on from that point then you probably are gonna have to bite the bullet and call in a plumber. One option is to install new pipe via the attic. Not a great one but if the pipe is covered to deal with condensation and then insulated over then it can be done. All depends upon the layout of all the piping.


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## ckphilli (Apr 29, 2006)

Hey thanks Bill. I'll take your advice. Will report back in a couple of days. 

I'm going to look again for a valve, maybe I just missed it.


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## wacor (Feb 22, 2005)

ckphilli said:


> Hey thanks Bill. I'll take your advice. Will report back in a couple of days.
> 
> I'm going to look again for a valve, maybe I just missed it.


Normally there is a valve. Take a look where the city water comes in and things branch off. There may be a dedicated line that goes to the hot water heater although they could have teed off any of the cold water supply. If you find it then I think you need to put one on the HWH discharge. If you shut off the inlet to the HWH and assuming there is a leak you gotta be careful not to let too much water out of the HWH or you can ruin the heating element. If you install a valve on the outlet then you could turn it off when not using hot water to keep the leakage down.


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## ckphilli (Apr 29, 2006)

Found the valve. It's on the right pipe (gas exhaust is blocking it in the picture).

But this isn't something I'm going to start this late in the day. I'll let you know once I get hot and heavy into it.


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## wacor (Feb 22, 2005)

ckphilli said:


> Found the valve. It's on the right pipe (gas exhaust is blocking it in the picture).
> 
> But this isn't something I'm going to start this late in the day. I'll let you know once I get hot and heavy into it.


If you want to see what happens then turn off the HWH, close the valve and drain the HWH

Assuming you know how to relight the pilot

If you don't know how to do that then just shut the valve off for a short time and see if there is any change to the water seeping out


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## wacor (Feb 22, 2005)

Assuming you find out it is a leak under the floor then I would rent something like an electric concrete breaker and chisel out around where the nearest hot pipe goes into the floor.

Something like this you can get at a tool rental place.

http://www.toolsofthetrade.net/industry-news.asp?articleID=686402&sectionID=1490

I would at least do that much to see if the leak is in the concrete or just below it. Unless you have soldered before I would have a plumber do the repair. Trying to get solder to take on a vertical repair on the bottom side of the coupling is no easy feat and you can make it a pain if the solder does not take.


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## katonca (Aug 10, 2004)

Good luck Chris :up:


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## Knotbored (Jun 5, 2004)

That looks to me like the pressure relief valve has the whitish pipe attached which seems to be routed into the slab, then outside. Perhaps the outside slab was put right over the discharge pipe after the house was built. The pressure relief is the valve on top of the tank with the flipper finger sized valve. If the thermostat doesn't shut off electricity when the water reaches temp then the resulring steam must be discharged. Thermostats are cheap and easy to replace. Check your hot water temperature-make sure its not hotter then 140F


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## Farmgirl22 (Jun 12, 2006)

wacor said:


> Trying to get solder to take on a vertical repair on the bottom side of the coupling is no easy feat and you can make it a pain if the solder does not take.


That's for sure! The trick is to make sure that you have the pipe CLEAN!! I'd scrub it really good with one of those plastic scrubbies or maybe even some fine steel wool and then be sure to use plenty of flux.

Keep a steady hand--not necessarily a slow one, the more you melt the solder the more it's going to run. I'd probably turn the iron down a bit in heat too if you can--would you agree Wacor? I've only soldered on glass with copper foil around it, not on plumbing--yet, but the solder/irons are the same, and the technique seems to be pretty much the same.


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## wacor (Feb 22, 2005)

Knotbored said:


> That looks to me like the pressure relief valve has the whitish pipe attached which seems to be routed into the slab, then outside. Perhaps the outside slab was put right over the discharge pipe after the house was built. The pressure relief is the valve on top of the tank with the flipper finger sized valve. If the thermostat doesn't shut off electricity when the water reaches temp then the resulring steam must be discharged. Thermostats are cheap and easy to replace. Check your hot water temperature-make sure its not hotter then 140F


 He can check that but I doubt the pvc pipe coming down from the relief valve goes thru the floor.



Farmgirl22 said:


> That's for sure! The trick is to make sure that you have the pipe CLEAN!! I'd scrub it really good with one of those plastic scrubbies or maybe even some fine steel wool and then be sure to use plenty of flux.
> 
> Keep a steady hand--not necessarily a slow one, the more you melt the solder the more it's going to run. I'd probably turn the iron down a bit in heat too if you can--would you agree Wacor? I've only soldered on glass with copper foil around it, not on plumbing--yet, but the solder/irons are the same, and the technique seems to be pretty much the same.


getting solder to draw upward on a vertical pipe you do not want the pipe to get too hot. Just enough to make the solder melt. You heat on all sides. Like I said it is not the easiest thing to do when you need a joint that will withstand pressure and not leak. And if it does leak then it is more difficult to clean up and start over.


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## JohnWill (Oct 19, 2002)

Actually, if the joints are truly clean and you use soldering paste on both pieces, it's normally very easy to get solder to flow into the joint, it's called capillary action. I've plumbed a whole hot water baseboard system and many other smaller jobs, soldering the copper pipe is normally the easiest part of the task. The key is to really clean the pieces with steel wool or Scotch Bright pads. Even brand new fittings and pipes MUST be cleaned the same way. 

I do agree if you have to do it again it's more difficult to clean up the pieces properly to start over. Truthfully, the couple of times I've had a problem with a small fitting, I just toss the fitting, clean the pipe end and go again.


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## wacor (Feb 22, 2005)

If you have done a bit of soldering I agree it is not that big a deal but if it is a first time at it then trying to solder the underside of a vertical coupling is not the thing to start out on. I never tried soldering from the inside in a case like that but I suppose once you did the outside you could then run a bead along the inside too.


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## hrlow2 (Oct 6, 2008)

to ckphilli
Looks like you got what you wished for in post#1.


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## JohnWill (Oct 19, 2002)

OK, I guess I'll yield that point. I suppose the first time I tried to sweat a joint it was a more exciting experience, it's just been 30 years or so since that time, and my memory has faded. 

My comments about absolute cleanliness and using soldering paste still apply.  They're the most common mistakes a novice plumber makes with copper pipe.


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## wacor (Feb 22, 2005)

JohnWill said:


> OK, I guess I'll yield that point. I suppose the first time I tried to sweat a joint it was a more exciting experience, it's just been 30 years or so since that time, and my memory has faded.
> 
> My comments about absolute cleanliness and using soldering paste still apply.  They're the most common mistakes a novice plumber makes with copper pipe.


If I remember right the flux is what draws in the solder

I hate plumbing. Invariably I end up with a leak. Hey I never claimed I was a plumber. I just have a job that involves plumbing at times.

One time I had to do some piping in a McDonalds in the middle of the night. Part of the pipe was in the ceiling. I learned the hard way that insulation is not fireproof.  That stuff lit and starting a 10' long piece immediately on fire. I had to rip it out of the ceiling. 

Burnt up my arm pretty good too


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## pyritechips (Jun 3, 2002)

No flux, no solder.

I soldered for a living at one point but, like John, it was some years ago (not that I am even half his age! ). I always used a fine grit sand paper to clean copper joints to be soldered. And yes, capillary action is what draws solder into the joint, not gravity. Another rookie mistake is thinking you can use the flame to melt solder into the joint. Wrong! You bring the copper up to a temperature where it melts the solder, not the flame. You can over heat the copper, or "cook" it to the point that the flux is burned off. The best test is to heat the copper and briefly dab the joint with the solder. If it beads and falls off the copper isn't hot enough. If it immediately seems to "soak in" then the temperature is right. The best method then is to remove the heat and rub the solder along the gap to be "sweated".

Another hint: use a good paste flux, not that liquid crap. It drips off and burns too easily. You heat source is also critical. One of those little butane hand held tanks don't necessarily deliver a steady enough heat to properly heat the copper. Another important tip: never lay under an overhead job to solder. If you ever had a molten lead/tin blob land on your face you know why!


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## wacor (Feb 22, 2005)

Good points Pyrite. Also the solder you use can make a difference. When they had to remove lead it made some of the stuff hard to use. I forget what we ended up going to but the guys complained like crazy until we came across the right stuff.


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## JohnWill (Oct 19, 2002)

As far as lighting things on fire, I have a fireproof mat that I bought years ago at a plumbing supplier, it gets stuck in front of any flammable stuff when I'm soldering in tight places. 

Final tip, make SURE you drain any water from the pipe before trying to heat it! 

FWIW, It's been a long time since I had a leak when sweating copper, once you get the technique down, it's pretty easy to get good joints.


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## ckphilli (Apr 29, 2006)

Hey thanks folks for all the input.

So here's the plan...assuming the hot water tees in the kitchen...

My brother and I are going to run a new pipe around the porch to the kitchen. He's done this kind of work before and it shouldn't take us more than a day.

Famous last words eh?

I'll post once we get it done...should be in about a week or so.


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## JohnWill (Oct 19, 2002)

Around the porch? I hope you don't live in a climate where it freezes in the winter!


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## ckphilli (Apr 29, 2006)

JohnWill said:


> Around the porch? I hope you don't live in a climate where it freezes in the winter!


Now that would be funny...and one of those "you might be a ******* if" pictures..."See what happened was we wanted us one of them screened in porches. So we figured we'd run us a pipe five foot high for support"

Ahem...let me rephrase...underground and insulated John...just outside of the perimeter of the porch...no concrete busting involved minus the holes to get out of the carport shed and into the kitchen.


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## JohnWill (Oct 19, 2002)

OK, that will do it. Of course, underground needs to be below the frost line. In truth, insulation for a pipe keeps the heat or cold in, but doesn't do anything to keep it from freezing if the water is not flowing, like all night when you're in bed. Insulation just slows the transfer of heat to the colder area.  It'll slow down the process of freezing, but if the area around the pipe is below freezing, and the water is stationary for long enough, it'll freezer no matter what kind of insulation you have.


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## ckphilli (Apr 29, 2006)

Good tip:up: We had already planned to go 8 to 12 " ; should be plenty down here...


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## wacor (Feb 22, 2005)

ckphilli said:


> Good tip:up: We had already planned to go 8 to 12 " ; should be plenty down here...


Where abouts down south do you live?

I would go deeper even if you lived in Florida. At least twice as deep as one would go when sinking in a shovel so as to make sure you were never damage it with a shovel. Up north it is at least 32" and that is if it is in a lawn area. In a walk way I always go 5' minimum as frost is driven in the ground by even dogs walking over an area


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## ckphilli (Apr 29, 2006)

wacor said:


> Where abouts down south do you live?
> 
> I would go deeper even if you lived in Florida. At least twice as deep as one would go when sinking in a shovel so as to make sure you were never damage it with a shovel. Up north it is at least 32" and that is if it is in a lawn area. In a walk way I always go 5' minimum as frost is driven in the ground by even dogs walking over an area


Louisiana...good point though...don't want to set up any future owners.


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## JohnWill (Oct 19, 2002)

I personally think 3 feet should do it, but the deeper the better is certainly good advice.  

Here in SE-PA, the deepest the frost line has been around here in about 50 years is 28 inches according to the county website. They require pipes to be buried 3 feet, so that should be sufficient for the south.

The problem of putting it where digging might occur is the wild card, that would be the principal reason I'd consider going deeper.


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## wacor (Feb 22, 2005)

JohnWill said:


> I personally think 3 feet should do it, but the deeper the better is certainly good advice.
> 
> Here in SE-PA, the deepest the frost line has been around here in about 50 years is 28 inches according to the county website. They require pipes to be buried 3 feet, so that should be sufficient for the south.
> 
> The problem of putting it where digging might occur is the wild card, that would be the principal reason I'd consider going deeper.


Back in the late 70's I was on a job where the frost was over 5' on the edge of a driveway. This is in Michigan. I admit it was a weird winter as there were frozen water mains under roadways in a couple of subdivisions we worked at.

Even a dog run will drive down the frost. But where one drives it is even more so.


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## JohnWill (Oct 19, 2002)

Well, I suspect that Michigan winters are a bit harsher than ours!  I've seen temperatures in the -15F range, which is the coldest I ever remember it being around here. That was the year that it froze my "frost-free" hose bib and I had a leak in spring when I tried to use it again. Most winters here might make it to 0F a couple of times, but that's about it.


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## wacor (Feb 22, 2005)

It was not a result of unusually severe cold but just darn cold for many many days continuous. I had 2 guys thawing out pipes every day for over a month.


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## JohnWill (Oct 19, 2002)

We don't normally get a lot of cold weather for a long period, at least not that cold. A really bad "cold snap" around here is in the single digits at night for a few days.

I've been in Grand Rapids in the winter a number of times, and I can assure you that our winters are NOTHING like that!


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## pyritechips (Jun 3, 2002)

JohnWill said:


> Well, I suspect that Michigan winters are a bit harsher than ours!  *I've seen temperatures in the -15F range*, which is the coldest I ever remember it being around here. That was the year that it froze my "frost-free" hose bib and I had a leak in spring when I tried to use it again. Most winters here might make it to 0F a couple of times, but that's about it.


Wuss!  That's BBQ weather.


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## JohnWill (Oct 19, 2002)

pyritechips said:


> Wuss!  That's BBQ weather.


Knock yourself out.


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## love2fish93 (May 27, 2008)

its a little off topic but i like the zebco in the water tank pic.


>*(((((((((-{


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## ckphilli (Apr 29, 2006)

can't beat em' :up:


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## ckphilli (Apr 29, 2006)

Well, we abandoned the plan of putting a new pipe in. We dug out the area on the other side of the carport room and water just started pouring out, from above. So, we were pretty certain the leak was close.

Tore out about a foot and a half by a foot and a half of porch slab and found the cuplrit. A nice little slit about a 1/4 inch long! 

So because they bent the pipe instead of putting in a 90 and because they literally snaked the pipe from the water heater to the porch we replaced the pipe from the water heater to the porch.

Oh and get this...they had a half inch line coming off the hot water pipe going to the back yard. Not sure what used to be hooked up to it. Strange though...hot and no cold?

Anyway, we put pressure on it last night and have one joint to redo. So this one isn't quite solved but real close. One joint and some concrete and we should be good.


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## ckphilli (Apr 29, 2006)

All buttoned up and done. No leaks, concrete is drying.

I'm beat. Good night.


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## hewee (Oct 26, 2001)

I can till your not from around here or the water heater would have water heater earthquake straps around it.

http://www.earthquakecountry.info/daretoprepare/stuff/waterheater.html

Look at what it says not to use. The plumber's tape was what used to be used all the time but it is weak really.


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## teemo (May 12, 2009)

Hi ckphilli,
That looks like it could be water from bath or shower ourflow, soapy with the bubbles . does that make sense?

teemo


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## hewee (Oct 26, 2001)

Just had leak. Heard water but was thinking it was next door because you hear the water all the time from them. But it seem to be odd sounding. So get up and water is starting to be all over the bath floor. I flushed the toilet but it did not shut off when the tank got full like it should and it was over the over flow and dripping down the handle and over the top. There is a lot of water pressure here and they have 1.5 inch line down the center so that is a big water line that goes to everything for both units. I turned the water down lower under the tank and lets hope this does not happen again and if it does it will not be when I go to bed or take off to come back or wake up to a flood.


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## ckphilli (Apr 29, 2006)

hewee said:


> Just had leak. Heard water but was thinking it was next door because you hear the water all the time from them. But it seem to be odd sounding. So get up and water is starting to be all over the bath floor. I flushed the toilet but it did not shut off when the tank got full like it should and it was over the over flow and dripping down the handle and over the top. There is a lot of water pressure here and they have 1.5 inch line down the center so that is a big water line that goes to everything for both units. I turned the water down lower under the tank and lets hope this does not happen again and if it does it will not be when I go to bed or take off to come back or wake up to a flood.


Oh no! Sorry about that Heewee. Did it happen again or is everything good?


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## ckphilli (Apr 29, 2006)

teemo said:


> Hi ckphilli,
> That looks like it could be water from bath or shower ourflow, soapy with the bubbles . does that make sense?
> 
> teemo


Nope, it was hot water coming out of the hot water heater, fixed now though


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## hewee (Oct 26, 2001)

ckphilli said:


> Oh no! Sorry about that Heewee. Did it happen again or is everything good?


No it only happen the one time. It has a float that is not like any I have ever had before. I have seen them but never had to deal with them.
I rise up something like this type here.
http://www.plumbingsupply.com/images/amstan-fill-valve-738565-401-0070a.jpg
Your see many others here http://www.plumbingsupply.com/toilet-fill-valves.html so from the way the owner is it would be what ever was cheaper.

Bath has the counter that also goes over the toilet tank and that's good and bad because it only has 4 inches of space from the top edge once you take the top of the tank. So very hard to see or work inside the tank.

But unlike the ones with the float ball that goes up as the tank fills and as it goes up higher the water pressure slows down more and more this one fills up under full pressure all the way up and then that part pops up and turns the water off. 
But if it gets stuck your under full water pressure with the water leave high and that over flow as big as it is can not take all the water coming in so it goes up and above the overflow.

Wow look at how much some of those cost.


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