# pirated software



## somak_de (Dec 1, 2002)

recently i have read a thread posted in the forum asking for a crack
of window xp. those who replied requested the thread starter to buy it.

well i support their views. but the real fact is that softwares is priced
so high that very few user can afford them.

for example in my country (India), Adobe photoshop is priced so much
that with this money one can easily buy a brand new computer !

just have a think of it. who would go for an original version paying such 
a high price when they can easily get a copy from there friends.

i know that to develop such a software heavy money is required. but still
i think software prices should be low to stop piracy.

i would like to know your views on that. and i would like to ask how many
of you has never used any pirated software.
dont think i am a supporter of piracy


----------



## Stoner (Oct 26, 2002)

Photoshop is one example that is ofter referred to because of its pricing. But only users that have a commercial benefit have a 'must have', or 'need' of this product. For them the cost is a matter of doing business.

For the hobbyist, there are alternatives that are low priced-PSP7 is less than 10% of PS when on sale- and many that are freeware-Irfanview,Satori,etc.

In general, there is usually a free version of most commercial software. 

Stealing anything is wrong, as we all know, and stealing software has nothing to do with our survival,unlike stealing food in order to not starve. The first example is a rationalization, the second is a reason.

just my 2 cents,


----------



## Rhettman5.1 (Sep 25, 2002)

Lots of shareware functions after the "trial" period is over..i/e winzip...I recently D/L'd a animated gif tool that was advertized as a "evaluation" version, only to discover it is fully functional forever,exept for the nag to register when you close it out. 

I know many contribute to shareware and freeware sites, but wouldn't shareware also be considered a "pirated" program after the evaluation period has expired ??


----------



## dalereis (Oct 24, 2002)

The free enterprise system would tell us that anyone can sell anything they want at any price. While I can't deny "borrowing" software very occasionally, I am very choosey about doing so and only in great need or just to experiment before buying. The price is determined by the demand and the way to voice your objection is not to "steal" it, but to just not buy or use it. As Stoner said, there is usually a free alternative if you will just take the time to search for it. My 2¢ worth.


----------



## ComputerFix (May 27, 2002)

I do agree that if one were to go out and buy full versions of Windows XP and Office, they would spend nearly the price of the PC, however, daleries has a point.

Also, one does not need the "latest and greatest" all the time, even if we want it. 

I am still using Office 97.

There are also "student" versions available for those who are students. I am taking a marketing class at the local college, therefore I qualify for the discounted OfficeXP if I want it, and I also bought some marketing software at 50% off.

This site has been an excellent resource for locating low cost or free software. If you are looking for something, ask. Odds are pretty good someone here is using something that can get the job done. (when I needed some AV software in a pinch, I received a reply for free software within minutes!)

I understand your frustration, and don't think that you are saying we should all be using "stolen" software. 

(P.S. my sometimes comes from the fact that I am a Kazaa lite user, which is hacked software, though most do not regard it as such, since Kazaa is free in the first place)


----------



## GoneForNow (Jul 22, 2001)

If you're gonna steal software you really need to do it in a more sophisticated manner. I have Microsoft believing that I'm an IT professional (I do maintain the office network but IT pro, I don't think so). I get long surveys from them that I complete, in return I get to choose free software. It how I got XP Pro, Office XP and so forth.


----------



## ComputerFix (May 27, 2002)

> _Originally posted by gbrumb:_
> *If you're gonna steal....you really need to do it in a more sophisticated manner. *


Yeah, its called being a lawyer.  

(glad to see you back GB  )


----------



## somak_de (Dec 1, 2002)

Thank you for such wonderful replies.

I know that there are plenty of freewares and sharewares available on net
and i have used a lot of them. But the problem comes when after 30 days some features
are turned off and frustrating regestration windows pop up.

I admit there are many low priced sofwares but they generally come from many unknown sites and
before buying them online one is very much concerned about safety of such transactions. 
In this forum many users told how they were cheated.

Stoner: 
"For the hobbyist, there are alternatives that are low priced-PSP7 is less than
10% of PS when on sale- and many that are freeware-Irfanview,Satori,etc." 


I am a hobbyist and has great interest in multimedia. i will definitely try
the softwares you have mentioned. 
But in this case there is another problem specially in my country that is "low bandwidth". i use a dialup connection and usually get nearly
2 kb/sec download speed. Imagine how many hours will it take to download a software 
eg. macromedia dreamweaver which is 50 mb and does not support resume !! so sometimes i think
why should i d/l the trial using so much telephone bill when i can get the full version from
a friend for free. 

actually i want to make the point that 

1)developing a good software may need heavy investment but since making a copy of it actualy 
requires nothing (unlike hardware) so why softwares are so expensive

2) why we cant share them with friends like everything else.


gbrumb : i did not understand what do you mean by "steal software .....in a more sophisticated manner". Can you explain it a bit elaborately?


----------



## jdemnyan1116 (Mar 18, 2000)

Not only do you have to worry about the it being illegal, also about the security of it. I have heard about pirated software causing problems like taking over computers etc. Wouldn't trust them at all.


----------



## pyritechips (Jun 3, 2002)

> (P.S. my sometimes comes from the fact that I am a Kazaa lite user, which is hacked software, though most do not regard it as such, since Kazaa is free in the first place)


Very interesting point.

TSG rightfully does not condone nore allow postings promoting, demonstrating or otherwise supporting cracking, hacking or pirating software. But Kazaalite is clearly in this category; indeed its illegal, hacked state is openly declared in the EULA. Yet it is promoted here as a necessary substitute for Kazaa.

It seems that the people WILL defy the law when a moral issue takes precedant. Nobody more than I hates spyware. People can and will defend themselves when the law cannot or will not.


----------



## GoneForNow (Jul 22, 2001)

> _Originally posted by somak_de:_
> *gbrumb : i did not understand what do you mean by "steal software .....in a more sophisticated manner". Can you explain it a bit elaborately? *


somak_de.......I was making a joke (obviously a bad one). There are two types of thieves, one that hits you in the head and takes your money or one that talks you out of your money. I was joking that I was the second kind of thief because I had convinced Microsoft that I'm an IT professional when I'm not. In other words, I talked them out of their software by false pretense.

(BTW, I do actually do the survey and I give honest and truthful answers. Microsoft is just not getting answers from an IT pro.)


----------



## Fyzbo (Feb 6, 2002)

I'm a college student and I have to admit I see tons of pirated software. I think a lot of people do it because they don't realize that they can get the software legally. At my school all computer science majors are entitled to any microsoft software(with the exception of office) for free, and it is not a trial for during college either it's yours for the rest of your life. Yet I still see computer science students getting pirated microsoft software. All I have to say is that if you do pirate software becareful because you may just get caught and then you'll be in a lot of trouble. I'd also like everyone to remember that the more pirating the higher the price will go and this will continue until no one is buying the software and the companies will just assume it is no longer wanted and stop producing it. It makes you think... if you want the price to go down convince all of your friends who are copying it to go out and buy it.


----------



## somak_de (Dec 1, 2002)

thank you fyzbo. you actually spoke my mind. I am also an Engineering student
I think piracy has alot to do with the attitude of the people
But it cant be eradicated unless software giants stop throwing unfair
terms on us. 
though this is not related exactly to piracy, but think how
microsoft software try to monopolise a particular format. Can you edit a 
WMA or ASF file using some other software not from microsoft. Not legally i can tell you!

all these playes subconsciously in the mind of the user and i know many people
who took the revenge by cracking the trial version! 
------------------------------------------------------------------
Understood your joke gbrumb!!! 
keep doing it


----------



## brendandonhu (Jul 8, 2002)

Yes you can legally edit WMA or ASF in a non-microsoft program. MS tries to keep their file formats "closed" but its never successful (completely, anyway). Its a good thing when independant developers are able to use MS formats. 
Now we have OpenOffice and plenty of video editors.


----------



## boyoh53 (Nov 28, 2002)

I believe more people would use pirated software if they thought 
they could get away with it. I certainly would. Bill Gates is taking
advantage of his position in the software market.

I think it is outrageous that I would have to buy three XP systems
if I had three computers in my house. That to me is bare faced
robbery. I have joined the computing game too late to be able to
join in the pirated scene. Everything now has to be activated by
Mr. Gates.

The student licence states that the student must stop using the
Office software once he ceases being a student. Now what kind of a law is that? Is it any wonder ordinary people try to get one over on Mr.G.? 
If two students living in the same house had a computer each,
they would need two Office's. The licence allows installation on one desktop and one laptop. I could go on.


----------



## suzi (Dec 27, 2002)

I can admit to having shared some software with friends who purchased it and sharing some with them as well. I went to a crack site *once* and all the porn pop-ups and onslaught of junk scared me away. Then I realized I got "lopped" there too. That was my first and last time going to a crack site.

I have never used Kazaa or any other file -sharing program. I'm just too chicken after what I've read and besides that I don't want anyone else nosing around in my computer to download stuff from me, like napster used to do. I decided if it's something I really want and need, I will pay for it. If I'm not willing to pay for it, then I don't get it.


----------



## Stoner (Oct 26, 2002)

Hi Suzi:

There really is a wide varity of good free/shareware available legally. These two URLs are just a small sampling off the internet.
It's a good idea to double check any downloads with Anti-Virus and then SpyBot or the new AdAware6[I use both].

http://www.webattack.com/freeware/freeware.html
http://www.webattack.com/shareware/shareware.html

Check them out. You might find something interesting.


----------



## somak_de (Dec 1, 2002)

thank you all for keeping this thread alive.

brendandonhu: can you post the name of the url for the softwares you are refering? i need to edit some wma file.

suzi: like you i had also been to cracker site once. it was also filled with porn popups. dont know what is the relation between the two but they really scared me.
but what amazed me is the amount of cracks and other hacking tools available there for free.
they are claiming that there are better minds than mr. g's force!! that is what a fighting back
i dont use cracks but support there cause to break free.

****** taking money for a creation is fine but too much of anything is not. take the example of this site. if you start taking fees for help then surely half of the members will opt out i
think.

****** this forum has become a popular mediam for promoting p2p's like kaazalite and winmx and i found
a large no. of member use them (me too) but dont they also support piracy as you are getting
everything without paying nothing to the original creator

keep posting


----------



## brendandonhu (Jul 8, 2002)

Nothing in particular, there are plenty of converters and AVI editors available, just search for them.

I have *completely accidentally* ended up at crack/keygen sites many times. they all have lotsa popups except some serious sites that pertain more to real info & whitehat such as hackology.

Very few times do those hack tools actually do anything too serious by themselves, its script kiddie stuff, virii, trojans, back doors etc. THe ones that do work can't do much because they are general, simple tools. For example, an HTTP Brute Forcer is in fact a web browser that can auto-fill forms, then it view page source, and compares it to a file containing an example successful and failed response.


----------



## prospect (Jun 13, 2002)

I'm gonna put in my 2 cents worth on this subject. 
I found out the hard way when my cd rom drive went bad, and I had to buy another, that I couldn't use my recovery cd's that came with the PC.
Well this is an outrage! I already paid for the one (OS) that came with the machine. And for them to make the customer go out and buy another one at $200.00 is just pure and simple greed.
I know it takes time to build these OS, but to stick it to the consumer is just wrong. Then they wonder why people steal.
In my opinion, I think if a person buys an OS and wants to put it into another PC they own at home, this should be legal.
I can take a part I have laying around for a chevy, and give it to my friend who also has a chevy, how come this isn't illegal?
I know there is a diffrence, but until these people quit ripping off the consumer, I'm afraid this trend will continue.  

Prospect


----------



## brendandonhu (Jul 8, 2002)

Notice this difference: make a copy of your CD and give it to your friend. Now give them your car part. You both can have the CD, but now you lose your car part and can't drive anymore.

Tip: Most companies will give you a Restore disk to replace the QuickRestore for about $10.00 that will work on a changed system. All you have to do is

The Restore disks can't be used on different systems because of technical limitations, although manufacturers SHOULD give consumers the "real deal" windows CD.

I think its fair that you can't use a windows disk on 2 computers at the same time. You only paid for 1 license, and no one forced you to use Windows anyway.


----------



## boyoh53 (Nov 28, 2002)

Brendan, you are either a millionaire or a close friend of Mr.G.
Any ordinary person with a family would suspect you are off your rocker. Yes,if the software was reasonably priced we could all, like you, buy individual license's per computer.


----------



## Rhettman5.1 (Sep 25, 2002)

I have two Identical cars, but only 1 steering wheel...I paid for the steering wheel and I can drive whichever car I want..but I still can't drive both at once.

Of course we are talking about using these steering wheels only for your own machines, I agree that passing copy's of windows to buddies is flat wrong...Rhett


----------



## boyoh53 (Nov 28, 2002)

I want to be clear here. Are your "buddies" your family or pals outside your household?
I would be against passing a copy willy-nilly around friends and neighbours. But, I mean, your own children having to go out and buy another copy of XP 'cause you have one.
Lets get real here.


----------



## Fyzbo (Feb 6, 2002)

I believe that Microsoft simply has a distrust of people. They have freaked out so far that the rules are just too strict. Although this may stop piracy, they may also loose business. People who do by software will get upset with all of this garbage and switch(yes there are alternatives to windows). Not only do they loose the money for that operating system, but also any additional programs like Office. More and more people are switching to apple and are feeling great about it. I encorage people all the time to go with RedHat Linux and freeoffice.


----------



## Fyzbo (Feb 6, 2002)

If you guys want this activation thing discontinued than write a letter and have everyone you know write a letter to microsoft. Not an e-mail, that will just be ingored and deleted, but a real paper letter. I know you don't believe it, but if enough people speak out things will change.


----------



## smuod (Feb 13, 2003)

Interesting thread. Heres an article from spywareinfo.com about the subject : http://www.spywareinfo.com/articles/warez/

Most of what i have to say has been covered already but here i go anyway..

Software.. it exists in the form of a downloaded .exe on your desktop or on a cd-rom. At some point all of us wonder "why should i have to buy two copies of XP.. it costs almost nothing to copy the OS once its created.. why is it so expensive?"

Why is anything so expensive? Because people are willing to pay for it. Windows 98 is more than enough OS for the average user yet many people upgrade every year. I would imagine that the typical internet / home computer user would be fine with windows 95. The only people who NEED to upgrade every year are those with jobs that require the latest greatest or those who just WANT the best.

If your job forces you to upgrade.. Its the price of doing business. Construction companies, retail stores or gas station owners.. all of them are forced to spend money for new tools every year to stay in business. Its the way the world works and computer professionals should not be treated differently.

Of course you have construction companies that buy stolen tools or attempt to cheat employees or clients out of money every day. And just like software pirates.. they are criminals. They are taking something that doesnt belong to them without paying.

If you just want the best.. expect to pay for it. People who want new cars every year expect to pay for them. People who want new operating systems [or any software] should expect the same.

Kazaa.. kazaalite.. whats the difference? The difference is that kazaa is software created by someone and kazaalite is a cracked [stolen] version of it.

Kazaa being a spyware pusher is wrong. I agree that them not being up front [explaining in plain english] about the spyware is wrong too. But.. they do explain it in the license agreement. Its our choice to skip over it. If we want to use kazaa we should have no problems with the spyware.

Kazaa gets away with the spyware pushing because so many users want to "share" [steal] music and software. I would imagine they count on piracy. What other files would we share? Whens the last time you logged on to the kazaa network to look for original poetry written by students?

Kazaalite users break into the kazaa network to share files. From my point of view.. Suggesting that someone download kazaalite is worse [or atleast equal to] than pointing them to a warez site. Its still a grey area and i assume thats why its still permitted on otherwise legitimate forums like this.

Many will attempt to justify software piracy with a "too expensive" or "its not fair" mind set. This simply isnt the case. As others have pointed out in this thread.. free or less expensive software exists in every category.. Including operating systems. [linux?] And again.. if you NEED or WANT a specific program.. your making a choice to either buy it or steal it.

The original poster said something like "why should i bother downloading on a slow connection when i can get a copy from my friend". It seems to me he/she has already made his/her mind up. If your boss asked you to work 80 hours for 40 hours pay.. would this seem fair to you? What if he explained how.. you are already at the office.. staying longer wont cost you as much as if you went home and came back so i shouldnt have to pay you the full amount?

Whats the problem with activation? The problem in my opinion is that most people have have gotte used to buying one copy of an OS for several machines. Again.. shouldnt we pay for each product? Why do we think software is different from any other product?

Sorry for bumping this thread.


----------



## brendandonhu (Jul 8, 2002)

Kazaalite isnt breaking into anything.
It is an installer for Kazaa that ONLY installs Kazaa, not the spyware that comes with it.
They do change a couple logos and button names but that is just about it (except the PL cheating, thats not allowed). They do not write a whole new client for FastTrack, or "break-in" to anything.
Recent releases are getting closer to what I would call a crack though, with unlimited auto search and other features that may start using more bandwidth than regular Kazaa users are allowed.


----------



## Guest (Feb 13, 2003)

In the virtual world, we all have to govern ourselves and try to remember to apply real-life morals - stealing is stealing - if you can't afford it ... ya just don't get it.
Just because you _can_ does not mean you _should_ ...
I can't afford a car - if I saw one sitting in the street, motor running, doors open and no one looking ... I still have no right to steal it, no matter how lax the protection.
I could use two husbands sometimes - sure would come in handy ... but borrowing my neighbour's is just not a good thing.
I am sure y'all could come up with much more clever analogies ... but the bottom line is the computer world is much more self-governing and you can't forget who you are!

What frustrates me ... legacy software that is made unavailable ... like Windows98SE - if a user _cannot_ upgrade due to system limitations, they are toasted for maintenance/recovery due to OEM loads- this type of thing I _have_ pilfered without an ounce of guilt!

MDM


----------



## smuod (Feb 13, 2003)

I cant argue about what kazaalite is or isnt but i assume altering the product is illegal. Whether its just removing something or completely rewriting it. Remove activation from XP and what do you get? A cracked copy.

I completely whole heartedly agree with those who "hate" OEM distros of the OS. In the past my personal..moral justification for using a single retail copy of an OS to reload more than one OEM PC is that i have the licenses.. why should they care?

With XP and activation this wont be possible anymore. Rather than complain about microsoft or the OEM's i have decided to never buy another OEM PC and build them from now on. When i buy the OS it will be once not twice and i wont have to deal with what HP fumbled while creating the recovery files.

If everyone stopped buying dells and compaqs and hp's they might be forced to rethink the current policy and start giving people a real operating system a long with the $1000+ PC they just purchased.


----------



## somak_de (Dec 1, 2002)

Thank you all for your post but Im especially interested in the one posted by smuod. 
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------"The original poster said something like "why should I bother downloading on a slow connection when I can get a copy from my friend". It seems to me he/she has already made his/her mind up. If your boss asked you to work 80 hours for 40 hours pay.. Would this seem fair to you? What if he explained how? You are already at the office. Staying longer wont cost you, as much as if you went home and came back so I shouldnt have to pay you the full amount? "
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I want to make it clear that I never "made up my mind" on using a pirated software or supporting piracy and that is why I started this thread. I only wanted you all to know the problems that drives otherwise honest people to use a "crack" (not me.... believe it or not).

Dont compare softwares with the tools used by "Construction companies, retail stores 
Or gas station owners". You can compare them with "HARDWARE" and can you tell me about a "cracked sound card". You cant and you all know why.

There is an example given by Richard stallman (one of the pioneers in promoting free softwares): " say, you made a great tasty dish but you cant give the recipe to your friend as it is password protected"...imagine that kind of situations. 

Computer has been one of the most wonderful creation science gave to mankind. But should not the software giants and Mr. g have some responsibility to spreading that to everybody who wants to learn about this. They are not doing this. But only making money and slowly we are becoming their slaves. You all know how Microsoft created a monopoly in the market by eliminating their rival (remember how they make Netscape a looser by giving free IE with windows some years back) 
You can call me communist but I think that there should be balance somewhere between business and spreading the knowledge to the world.
If you commercialize everything in this way then in future some BIG corporations will control us and they will shape our life.


Many of you wrote that when one chooses a particular software he/she is bound to pay for that or should go for free alternatives...completely agree with you on that. But should not they be more flexible with their policy and help the people share this wonderful creation

I dont know whether is it right or wrong criticizing a particular company in this way but this is my experience. If you think this is wrong then tell me.

Good luck and keep posting


----------



## Stoner (Oct 26, 2002)

> _Originally posted by somak_de:_
> *Thank you all for your post but Im especially interested in the one posted by smuod.
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------"The original poster said something like "why should I bother downloading on a slow connection when I can get a copy from my friend". It seems to me he/she has already made his/her mind up. If your boss asked you to work 80 hours for 40 hours pay.. Would this seem fair to you? What if he explained how? You are already at the office. Staying longer wont cost you, as much as if you went home and came back so I shouldnt have to pay you the full amount? "
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> ...


===================================

This dialog sounds more like an attempt to rationalize thievery!
MS software and many MS based programs are for sale. For money.
You've been shown free acceptable replacements.
If a person uses commercial software[software for sale] and doesn't pay for it , they are thieves.......................!
NO excuses.
If you can't afford MS products, don't be a thief, use Linux.


----------



## Guest (Feb 14, 2003)

exactly stoner!
No matter what is 'dangled in front of our face'
cars - electronic games - homes - designer clothes - medical care, prescritions - software ... if you can't afford it, you can't have it, no matter how tantalizing it is to you or how needy you feel you are. We have choices in forms of transportation - entertainment - clothing - clinics, generic drugs ... why should the world of computers be any different? I have worked darned hard to save for and purchase the equipment and software that I own - just as I have saved for my first gold lame dress! What is the difference? If you want it - earn it ... _that is responsibility_

I could copy several more quotes in here, but try to see this ... _retail stores must continuously up their prices on merchandise to allow for their losses on shoplifting - as well as pay for security stop-checks... if we all didn't steal software, companies like Microsoft may not have to charge us so much accomodating this allowance, as well as input such grand designs to prevent theft _

... off to try to generate some money for my new car (and I can't afford fancy, just something to get me there)


----------



## smuod (Feb 13, 2003)

Rather than go into a long boring post..

"and can you tell me about a "cracked sound card". You cant and you all know why"

Cracked software is the same as you plucking a sound card off the shelf at the PC store and walking out without paying.

The difference is.. with software you dont have to leave your desk to break the law.


----------



## somak_de (Dec 1, 2002)

I think you misunderstood my views expressed in my last post. Neither did I attempted to rationalize thievery and nor said that we should all start using pirated things. I just wrote the problems faced by me (and others) and wanted solutions suitable for both party. 
Free alternatives are coming and more and more people are switching towards them.
So this the time for the ms and others to change their policies to a more liberal one. 

I strongly feel that high price and unfair policies are one of the root cause of the piracy and that is what I am saying all through these post. So dont confuse me with a pirate or a thief.


----------



## smuod (Feb 13, 2003)

Price has nothing to do with it. If MS and all software vendors dropped prices to $1.. It would still be pirated by those who chose to take things rather than earn or purchase them.


----------



## suzi (Dec 27, 2002)

Stoner wrote:


> There really is a wide varity of good free/shareware available legally.


Just getting back to this thread. Thanks for the links Stoner. I have some of the freeware and shareware things too. I was mainly referring to things like software I have recently purchased - Dreamweaver, NetObjects Fusion, American Greetings Creat-A-Card, stuff like that. I suppose maybe one can get those things in file sharing apps or warez sites. But I agree that it is stealing, just like going into a store and taking anything without paying for them.

One of the reasons the cost of software is high is becaue of the theft that goes on. Companies that develop a great product are surely entitled to profit from it. I personally have more of a beef with pharmaceutical companies who charge outrageous prices for prescription drugs than for companies like Microsoft or Adobe or Macromedia for their software products. People can live without XP or Photoshop or Dreamweaver but some people can't live without their medications.

So many people love to hate Microsoft and Bill Gates - but just think about this - where would the world of computing be without them?

Bill Gates is a huge philanthropist also, giving away millions each year for AIDS research and care and other global causes.

And I agree with SMUOD that one reason the prices of software are so high is that people continue to pay for it. If people quit buying it, the prices would come down.

We all have choices. If we don't like Microsoft we can use Linux and so on.


----------



## kalki (Aug 23, 2001)

you don't monoplize on things like operaqting systems.
90% of all type of software need it to run games,graphics,
word processing so it would be like saudi arabia monoplizing
on oil and saying we would give it to only one particular car
company and as for others they have alternatives like electricity
and hydrogen for their engines..

also many things bundled with microsoft operating systems are
not used by people like the firewall with xp..anyone serious enough
to protect their computers knows better..and infact there are good
free firewalls available..but when you buy xp you also pay for that
firewall..it will be good if they could make a bare bones operating
system which could act as a platform for other programs and so be
cheap but will they do it..to charge high prices for the operating
systems and justify the price they add all unwanted stuff..something
like an operating system should be very cheap compared to other kind
of software like for graphics or games..and what about end of life
of a product..in the software industry it happens so fast unlike
the hardware industry where you can still manage with the cd-rom you
purchased three years ago..television purchased 10 years ago still
runs cable tv without any problem...yes they may not have flat and
full square displays or other fancy things but they still allow you
to watch news , shows etc. without any problem and those who want
new televisions buy and those who don't want anything don't have to 
buy but they can still see all programs..that is true choice..

those who spent money buying a decent computer four years back to
play games, do office work etc. will find that their computers
will not run many applications and they have to upgrade so they
think they can sell some of their present parts and get some money
but they find it hard to sell because no one wants old parts when
they can get new parts for the same amount of money and if someone
does want it they will give 10% of the actual cost of that part 4 years
back..so those who buy computers are either stuck with those parts or
have to give it away for almost nothing and the dilemma is that everybody
is not interested in being a collector of old hardware and at the same time
not everyone feels good at having to sell something for 10 when they spent 100 buying it just a few years back..it does not make any sense
leave alone a business one..and for how long do the computer hardware
and software companies plan on continuing this kind of game..if they
don't correct their habits soon, circumstances will make the decesions
for them..

companies use their governments to arm twist smaller countries into buying their software like microsoft did with Peru.

people who follow what is happening and are aware have more than enough
reasons to do what they do...

reducing software prices will reduce piracy because majority of software users are those who like and will pay for what they use
and everyone knows that including those who make software but
will the software makers themselves reduce prices..no..because
they know there are enough people buying software for them to
make profits..is not the chairman of microsoft one of the richest
men...and also many people download software just for fun to try
and see what it does and just tinker with it and also they
want to see the full version of it without any limitaions so they get
cracks etc. others only want to use it once for some specific task and
don't want to pay high prices for it so they get cracks, for these people some way of renting software may work or prices should be cheap
enough so that people buy it even for one time use..cheap prices really
do make a difference..atleast better than losing customers to cracks..also computer programmers should concentrate more on quality
than quantity..and easy and secure ways of ordering programes must
also be available...users who use software programs regularly and find
that the product really does deliver what it says do pay for it because
thats the way people are you do something good and people notice and appreciate it.


----------



## brendandonhu (Jul 8, 2002)

Microsoft is a company.
This is a free enterprise system.

If they want to include a firewall with their product, they can put a firewall with their product. You don't like it, don't buy it.

If they want to make software that requires the latest and greatest system, they can make the software. You don't want to get the new hardware, don't buy it.

If they want to include a lot of extras with there OS, they can do it. You don't like it, you don't buy it.
BTW in Taiwan MS was forced to lower software prices and offer Windows with nothing extra added.


----------



## GoneForNow (Jul 22, 2001)

> you don't monoplize on things like operaqting systems.


I agree that certain types of monopolies are bad and/or illegal. But then you don't get to determine the price, it's called free enterprise. You don't want to pay the price of Windows download Linux, it's free. Contrary to the feelings at this web site, computers and operating systems are not "must have to survive" items.

Brendan......Correct and well said.


----------



## boyoh53 (Nov 28, 2002)

If they done the same worldwide, bare bones systems and buy or d/load for free the extras one needs. Most of the stuff on XP will never be used by many people. You have made a great point there about Taiwan.
That could make the systems possibly half price and more affordable for family people and do away with "copies".
This "don't like it don't buy it" attitude sounds inconsiderate and harsh thinking. Consider those less fortunate than yourself.
Many computers are bought by families with X children and probably find it a struggle to get by.


----------



## GoneForNow (Jul 22, 2001)

> This "don't like it don't buy it" attitude sounds inconsiderate and harsh thinking. Consider those less fortunate than yourself.


Computers in your home are a luxury not a necessity. Again, you want to change how Microsoft sells its' software? Don't buy it, they will either come around and market at a price you are willing to pay or go broke. Telling MS what will be in Windows and how much you can profit sounds like a totalitarian state.


----------



## buck52 (Mar 9, 2001)

> _Originally posted by boyoh53:_
> 
> Many computers are bought by families with X children and probably find it a struggle to get by.  [/B]


This will open a whole can of worms and doesn't have a lot to do with pirated software but... oh well

If they had X number less children maybe they wouldn't struggle so much.

I chose to not have any kids so I did not have to struggle so much and am tired of supporting those who have multiple kids and can't afford them

buck


----------



## Fyzbo (Feb 6, 2002)

hehehe
[fyzbo quietly agrees]


----------



## GoneForNow (Jul 22, 2001)

Buck52........I don't know what to say, are you actually suggesting that people take responsibility for the decisions they make? ( ) Next you will be suggesting something as radical as paying for software.


----------



## boyoh53 (Nov 28, 2002)

Some of you sound like selfish and self-centred people.


----------



## buck52 (Mar 9, 2001)

Howdy boyoh53

Not self-centered...just tired of supporting stupid decisions...
Don't ask me to help you support you and or your child because you can't ...then go and have another one

Hi *gbrumb*...Sorry I must have lost my mind for a minute  
buck


----------



## boyoh53 (Nov 28, 2002)

> _Originally posted by buck52:_
> *This will open a whole can of worms and doesn't have a lot to do with pirated software but... oh well
> *


No not directly, but most large families use computers as well and have to be maintained and that costs money.
You are all sounding like a former female Prime Minister of UK.
We all knew where she stood.

All kids who want to "get on" with their schooling "need" a computer to make any progress. That is reason we got one, all the rest of the kids had a computer.
Presuming you are from USA I am rather surprised at the attitude
coming from you all. The land of freedom and justice.
When it suits.


----------



## buck52 (Mar 9, 2001)

> _Originally posted by boyoh53:_
> *
> 
> All kids who want to "get on" with their schooling "need" a computer to make any progress.
> *


Bologna... What kids need to do is learn how to work!

buck


----------



## brendandonhu (Jul 8, 2002)

> _Originally posted by boyoh53:_
> *That is reason we got one, all the rest of the kids had a computer.*


If all the kids were jumping of mountains....


----------



## boyoh53 (Nov 28, 2002)

True again, but for any decent kind of job now, education is also required here.
One thing I forgot to thank Mr. G for was the students Office Pack.
Full cost here around £400.00 for £120.00.
If I have been rude I apologise, but my heart aches for genuine
under priviledged people and the extortionate prices charged for computers and software. I rest my case.


----------



## Fyzbo (Feb 6, 2002)

I feel bad for those underpriviledged people as well. Just think, they have to rent a place to live not own and they don't have summer homes to go where it's warm and they have no boat for skiing or a membership to a resort. Wait I have none of those things. Wait again, I worked for 2 years saving my money so I can buy my computer. Hmmm? Wait my older sister's computer is my old one with a pentium 75 chip and 16mb of ram, which she was thankful for because before she had to go over the the library to type papers. Yet neither her or I blame microsoft for not having the best of the best all of the time. Interesting.


----------



## gotrootdude (Feb 19, 2003)

What really burns my bottom is the safeguards that are implimented to supposedly prevent pirating of music/videos/ and software. Who do the manufactuers think they work for. What makes someone think that they have the right to make me pay $30 for a music CD and then not be able to make a backup? And software, is anyone here familier with the so called "Fritz Chip" or Pallidium, or CBDTPA? Personally, if I buy a piece of hardware, I want to use it as I see fit, with no-one looking over my shoulder, or threatening to arrest me for modifying it. The same is true for software. This said, most of what I use is freeware, but even this is threatened by microsoft's and Intel's "Trusted Computing Platform". Isn't there some sort of Fair Use Act that gives people the right to obtain information for the betterment of the country?

What's next? Does my family get prosicuted for swapping family photos? How about faxes of kid's report cards? 5 years in prison for viewing a play of Annie, or anything Disney without paying through the nose? Recently, my daughter's school put on a play of Annie, It cost $25 to see it (because of royalties and copyrights).. That meant, it cost my family $150 just to see my own daughter in a play! Ridiculous!

Piracy itself serves a purpose. If a program is good, I'll pay for it. If it works half-assed, then why is it supposedly the "best on the market" according to CNET (the sellout). I'd rather take advice on what to buy from a software pirate than tech tv, or what's in the rags that are pushed on the public and called fair reviews or Honest commecials. 

There, I've had my say, Any comments anyone?


----------



## gotrootdude (Feb 19, 2003)

As far as poor underprivledged children are concerned, I've long felt that it's the communities responsibility to educate the children in the next generation, no matter whose they are. If the only way underprivledged children can get this information is by piracy (ether by them, or thier parents) It's not thier fault. It's our failure as a nation. Those who can afford it should buy it, those who can't shouldn't, but that doesn't mean they shouldn't have fair access to anything that may furthur thier education.. And no, I don't believe that new song by Christina Aquilara should be stolen, there's nothing to learn from that!


----------



## Fyzbo (Feb 6, 2002)

gotrootdude,

I'm with you on your theory of being able to use our purchases for what we want. Anti-piracy tactics only hurt the people who actually bought the software. Hackers will find a way around it and it will still be pirated, but those who actually payed for it will suffer from the inconvenience.


----------



## boyoh53 (Nov 28, 2002)

gotrootdude, you have said it well, you have a heart and an
understanding for underprivledged people and children.
I admire you.


----------



## brendandonhu (Jul 8, 2002)

Underpriveleged children should have access to computers. How about a school or a library though?

I know a low income woman with 3 kids. Their electricity has been cut off several times. Does that mean she should pirate electricity?

If someone diesn't have a car, but needs to drive, should he steal a car?

Should I steal cable for education, because the only way I can learn is by watching discovery channel?

If you steal software so that children can learn, you must be a little confused. The internet is not the only resource out there for education. Not that I believe him, but my dad says they didn't even have a computer when he was a kid


----------



## boyoh53 (Nov 28, 2002)

Where did I say I stole or suggest anyone else steal anything?
I think you are getting confused.
We are talking about software being realistically priced and affordable for everyone.
If your children were starving for food you would let them die then because you wouldn't steal food for them.


----------



## brendandonhu (Jul 8, 2002)

sorry if I may have taken that the wrong way, but there is a little difference between stealing to feed your family and everyone's deperate need for the newest version of Windows.


----------



## gotrootdude (Feb 19, 2003)

Did you see my name, primarily, I believe in an open-source community, and yes, theft of information is what got microsoft where it is today. Knowlege should be free and covered under the Fair Use Act. 


If you are a practicing musician, maybe the theft of music under the Fair Use Act may apply to you. Same for a game, if you are a practicing game software programmer.

That doesn't mean that all people should copy and distribute CD's of windows XP, or the newest game. 

That means, I believe all online learning institutions should be required to post thier course syllabus and materials. All programmers should post their code. 

Copyright law was made to insure that the original creator of a intellectual work could profit from the work as long as possible. This was placed in our laws to promote and reward growth of intellectual work. It was not made to inhibit the intellectual growth of the country. Therefore, if someone makes up a song, he is allowed to profit from the song as long as there is profit to be made from it, but if part of his song becomes part of another song, the original creator has no right under the purpose of the copyright to sue. If I make a product, and you can make a product like mine that does the job better or cheaper , then are you to be penalized by my copyright? No, copyright was originally supposed to mean that I am intitled to the profits as long as it is profitable, If the product is no longer profitable (either by duplication, or improvement), then my copyright by purpose should be voided.

I will say, I have no respect for those people who obtain files off kazaa, or morphous, or any whimp, script kiddie network of traders.


----------



## gotrootdude (Feb 19, 2003)

As a former military nuclear biological chemical, communications, language, and medical specialist turned vice president of a corporation. Who has experience in electronics, lasers, robotics, industrial chemistry, international trading and shipping, along with pharmaceuticals, and a medical background, who has yet to obtain a 4 year degree from any university.

I cannot understate the value of free trade of technology among my colleagues who may at this time be searching for a new platform for distributed computing, or a new cure for Aids, cancer, or a unlimited clean energy source. Copyright laws have gone to far, it's plain and simple.

Sincerly, one amateur scientist


----------



## Guest (Mar 5, 2003)

> gotrootdude
> I will say, I have no respect for those people who obtain files off kazaa, or morphous, or any whimp, script kiddie network of traders.


No Kidding! I had heard about Kazaa for so long- in here, and from some of my customers. I had actually started to feel I was behind the times. Saturday, I finally had to go in there to check it out, as one of my people required support related to this 'thing'.
Oh my - I could not believe my eyes! Newly released movies, full blown applications with passwords ... blatant theft and a bunch of thieves sharing, with forums on how to make it (worse) easier to hide from "the man" - holy crap batman!
I now know to firmly suggest to parents that they not allow this on their machines. I may think about refusing to support if they want to use it.
All I can say now is - wow - whatta world eh? 
Morals only on Sunday or what???
MDM


----------



## gotrootdude (Feb 19, 2003)

Exactly, I believe piracy is a moral problem, not necessarily a legal problem, the real solution to piracy starts with the installation of moral upbringing in our children. Whether it is illegal or not should be judged by if it was done out of moral contention and need.

To a previous poster who talked about a person who had their electricity turned off. I have instructed my children to obtain through any ways neccesary the means to survive. If this is a necessity, then by all means obtain it. Legality isn't an issue in education and survival. But don't share it, instruct others, or blatently take more than is necessary for living. Maybe this way of thinking has come from my military background or my feeling that I could have obtained loftier goals if I would have had access to more education during my upbringing. 

Laws are put into place in order to maintain order and harmony, they are not for the purpose of inflicting harm on any person. To many times, laws are placed that conflict with morality and and the purpose behind which laws were created. 

In summary, piracy can be right or wrong depending on moral issues. Laws can be right or wrong as well. I do not condone piracy, but niether do I oppose it if done for the right reasons.


I myself have but one goal in life. That is to make the world a better place for those who precede me. I believe, that when the bible says,"on earth as it is in heaven", it means it. We have the chance to make this earth heaven or hell, depending on the choices we make. I would hope anyone who judges others to feel the same.


----------



## chalky (Oct 8, 2001)

I bid for some Windows software on e-bay, the price went so high that I didn't bother, BUT I recieved an e-mail from someone selling legal copies, worded as such that made it legal for them to sell. ( I checked this out) Needless to say I did Buy a copy - at a quarter of the shop price - and it's perfect in everyway, CD code included. I shall contact them in future before I go buy in the shops.
Chalky


----------



## w4rchild (Mar 27, 2003)

I use only pirated soft
cuz it's imposible to buy something original here.
Nobody can afford, only the company that required legal licenses.

The pay rate and hour here is like 1.5 u$ 

so ... i u work 24 days a month u cannot a operative system of 200 U$ .... forget the Office and the Corel ... imposible to get one of that.... legal...

Here the ppl wins a year 5.000 U$ .. the common ... 
Maybe a Engineer wins 10.000 u$ and still been nothiing


----------



## hewee (Oct 26, 2001)

w4rchild,

Wow so how you get a PC and online then?


----------



## w4rchild (Mar 27, 2003)

Cuz im systems engineer and i work as an administrator and i connect through my company, well is more accesible have a connection of internet or buy a cpu.. but a i prefer save money and buy a router or firewall and not expend in the office pack, here cost more that 400 hundred dollars complete... and maybe is 1 month of work ... ... also i bought in Usa my CPU .. more cheaper .. than here .. ..


U got me ?


----------



## hewee (Oct 26, 2001)

OK I got you  

Maybe time for you to move to the USA w4rchild.


----------



## w4rchild (Mar 27, 2003)

Yeah. i already lived in Usa .. until december 

i love the TECH of usa... but is not my country ..


----------



## hewee (Oct 26, 2001)

w4rchild,

Well you have the TSG family here.


----------



## w4rchild (Mar 27, 2003)

Tnx !!! dude


----------



## hammerbill (Feb 26, 2003)

I do not typically use pirated software and the only times I (rarely) have was to evaluate a program to see if I wanted it. I'd rather have my own copy not to comply with laws or morals, just for the pride of ownership and not being a skinflint. But...
I agree that the issue of pirating software and even copyright laws should be a moral and not a legal issue. I have a bit of a problem with the concept of owning a thought. There is something fundamentally wrong with "I thought of this a bit before someone else, so everyone else who thinks of it should pay me royalties". "Nobody else should be able to have this information now without my permission". I feel physical property is a totally different issue.
I feel that it is the responsability of the individual that "owns" the information/data to protect it themselves. I do not think that the government is obliged to assist in any way.
As evidence to this, I point to the multitudes of corporations-many of whom are staunch supporters of information rights, that have been collecting consumer data without permission and reproducing it and selling it for years. What gives them the right to treat information about my life like a comodity up for grabs while denying me the right to use their information in a similar manner? A government that is enforcing these "rights" is not doing it fairly.


----------



## deuce (May 26, 2001)

> There are also "student" versions available for those who are students. I am taking a marketing class at the local college, therefore I qualify for the discounted OfficeXP if I want it, and I also bought some marketing software at 50% off.


Yes as bad as M$ is, they are good in this area. My school gets alot of software for us at "student" discounts. For example: XP Pro: $5...............MS Office XP Pro: $5. (the school might be pitching in.....I'm not sure)

I can't complain. 

I'm glad my school goes through the work to set these things up and I'm glad M$ and other companies agree to work with us. If software wasn't available to us so cheap, no one would buy it and everyone would steal it. Resources for pirated software are fairly abundant here...but because of the lowered prices people usually seem to buy it when possible....so this cuts down on piracy.


----------



## djrobber (Jan 4, 2003)

My 2 cents on this, if you are making money (a dollar or a million dollars) using the software as a tool, then you should pay for it. However, and a STRONG however, you should not have to pay for upgrades that, in general, only fix flaws with the original purchased version. 
Photoshop is an industry standard, but between version 3 and 6, had no real upgrade value from a production standpoint (excepting newbie requirements). The cost was $300-$600 per upgrade, though. 
The same point could be made with the recording industry, they are not falling on hard times because of napster (dead for a few years) or kazaa (crap versions of top 40 'hits')...if they'd unstuff their shirts and stop foisting this mindless dreck on the general public, I might be more inclined to pay $15 for $1 worth of packaging and reproduction costs, solely on merit of artistic value. (Not like the artists are reaping the rewards of CD sales, they rely on touring, etc. to garner their real wages.) 
A heady topic to be sure, but, I reckon I've a right to get a working copy of windows to surf the web after i've personally contributed a grand or two to our dad Billy Gates.
(p.s. I'm still waiting)

Currently running Windows Swampland-in-Florida Edition V2.1.2.3.4.5.6.7.4.6.8746.746.7.47.47.467.x


Computers: Like a real job, only the expectations are lower. DjRobber-2000


----------



## brushmaster1 (Jun 15, 2002)

I don't believe in using pirated software...if you want it, BUY it!

However, having said that, I feel I need to confess to having a pirated copy of Windows 95 OSR2. It came about in this manner:

Several years ago, after having had several XTs, 286s, and 386s, I decided it was time to enter the 20th century 
I bought a used P120 with Windows 95 and 8MB of RAM (it was all I could afford). I upgraded the RAM, but I had a system with Windows 95 and NO Windows disk in case of disaster. When Windows 98 was released, I bought the upgrade version and upgraded my system. Needless to say, I had many problems, so I did a clean install of Windows 98 using my Win 3.1 disks for proof of eligibility.

A few months later, A power surge wiped my hard drive. When I tried to install Windows 98 again, I discovered that my Window 3.1 disks (one of them) had become corrupted. A friend offered me a burnt copy of Windows 95, and I used that to install Windows 98. I still have the CD, but I have never since used it for anything, and I don't plan to.

I WILL NOT upgrade to Windows XP, since it seems to me to be Microsoft's attempt to create the ultimate spyware. I will stick with Windows 98SE, whether Microsoft supports it or not.

Here is the crux of the matter... the software market, like any other market, is driven by supply and demand. OF COURSE software companies sometimes charge exorbitant prices, and will continue to do so as long as people feel they HAVE to use the very latest version of everything. There are cheaper alternatives to most of the high priced programs, and if more people would use these, it might force companies like Microsoft and Adobe to rethink their pricing policies.

I'm still using Office 97 Pro, and see NO reason to move to a later version.

I do a LOT of imaging, and I use PSP 3.12 (practically an antique) for nearly everything. It will do everything that Photoshop will, is much faster, and certainly cheaper. I have Photoshop (5.0), but use it only for one filter which won't run on PSP.

For word processing, I have Corel Office Suite 7 and 8, MS Office 97, and Lotus 96. What I USE, however, is AmiPro 3.0, which, again, will do everything the more expensive programs will do.

In short, I have a budget system, built mostly from used parts, and I see no real need to upgrade.


----------



## deuce (May 26, 2001)

bm I see no problem in your use of the pirated w95. You had paid for your w3.1, and so there is no reason you should have to pay for a full version again just because the disks had become corrupted.


----------



## bencpht (Dec 24, 2002)

I can't believe I actually read that many replies. Instead of using pirated software, why can't people just get by with the free stuff? Make sure you read Mindpilot's thread about M$ new OS. It's a great reason to go Linux (which is legally FREEEEEEEE).


----------



## scanner (May 31, 2002)

Here is another take on this issue , first you are not buying the software but you buy the license to use it, it's the same as renting a house or apartment you don't own the house or apt, one pay for the right to use , and if one want to have a guest or roommate one is free to do so, in my opinion borrowing software is not stealing but being a "guest" of a friend software the friend invite me to use his house\software, which he own the license to use\rent, hence " borrowing" for "inspection" and "evaluation" for a indefinite time but, of course with the intention to pay the high price " after" the software passes the test , and please DO not steal software 'cause you'll deprive M$ of adding one to five billions to his bottomless greed , of course this is a free economy and with the money that these cat's have to buy\influence lawmakers\senators, to pass laws to prevent you from "borrowing" they sometime questionable software, and it's also improper to steal from a thief , and we must always question ; who are borrowing from , is it adobe ?, M$... Roxio, or some of the other rich and influential characters that are getting richer by the hour as some have said M$ CLEARS 2 mil per day on wxp and office alone!, And is deplorable for one to steal from them , like the guy from India he should not "steal" from M$ or Adobe, 'cause stealing software is AGAINST THE LAW and is not recommended by this great forum TSG which I'm a proud member of ( of course TSG is a in part advertising supported site and the owners, rightly so, need to buy a bigger house and possibly newer suv or porsche, and intend to keep the money flowing in to pay for the "expenses" etc, etc) any way my favor is black Ferrari ..... and paying the bloated HIGH prices for software, which are rationalized by the fact that there are "thievery" going on!! Cheers


----------



## brendandonhu (Jul 8, 2002)

scanner-giving your cd to someone else is not like having a guest in your house.
If you rip and distribute your CD, thousands of people could be using it as if it were a fully functional cd and having copies of it would not impact the users of the copies.

but if you shared your house, there would be only 1 house still and many people living in the 1 house which makes it undesirable. 
Thats why there is a difference between distributing something physically real that can't be duplicated at the touch of a button, and copying software. 

We don't need copy protection and laws to stop people from putting their houses and belongings on P2P networks, the restrictions are needed with software because it can be cloned so easily.


----------



## w4rchild (Mar 27, 2003)

m$ REALLY SUX


----------



## BrianHed (Dec 29, 2001)

Use my freemarket system for purchasing software:

-Pirate it.
-Wait till the price drops to what its worth.
-Then, purchase it!!

Flawless.......

This works best for games. My price range for a good game is $25-30 ;not the $50 they want when they are first released.

Examples: Half-life $39, GTA3 $29, Car Tycoon $Never!

As for OS'es and App's the system doesn't always work out for the maker. I'm still waiting for OfficeXP to come down to what its worth..... I did buy WinXP upgrade for $99 and tons of free stuff. 
I have the latest versions of Autocad and Inventor but these are for learning their software only. They will get their $5000 when the company I work for in the future buys it for me to work with.

Other examples: Adaware $20, CloneCD $30, TSG Forums $20/yr, Gamespy $20, How to Learn Chinese $39


In closing: I chose this system because it's morally correct and CAN BE DONE. Wouldn't it great to get a car and make payments equal to the worthiness of it! -but you CAN'T... 

Brian


----------



## brendandonhu (Jul 8, 2002)

Why not jack the car and write a check for the blue book value and drop it in the dealership mailbox? Its the same thing...


----------



## BrianHed (Dec 29, 2001)

A. I specifically said my system "CAN BE DONE". This means there is a common method to do it and with no repercussions. Compare it to jaywalking- illegal but statistically unenforced.

B. If I could make a copy of the car instead of taking the original then you might have a point. I got a Saturn that turned into a lemon at 37000mi. I would have liked to stop making payments at that point. BUT I CAN'T. 

C. I'm paying what the software is worth, so I'm not stealing anything! 

My system is flawless until Kazaa, AOL, etc. change their systems.


----------



## Sydonia (May 3, 2003)

...as for me, I would never pay for buggy software.


----------



## GoneForNow (Jul 22, 2001)

> _Originally posted by BrianHed:_
> *Use my freemarket system for purchasing software:
> 
> -Pirate it.
> ...


You can rationalize it any way you want but its still theft. Just because your not arrested for jaywalking doesn't mean it isn't illegal. 
You don't get to determine the value of software by illegally copying it and then hope the price comes down so you can buy it at a price you think reasonable. If enough people don't buy the software at the price offered it will come down. Your use while you're waiting still amounts to theft.

Tell you what, you come work for me and I'll let you set your salary. Mind you I won't pay you until you lower your salary to amount I think your labor is worth. Then I'll pay you.

According to you that is morally correct.

BTW, you don't get to determine the value of the software other then to not buy it.


----------



## brendandonhu (Jul 8, 2002)

Thats true about software being copies, so no one loses an actual copy of the software, but the programmer loses a sale. Or a hundred sales. Or a thousand.

BTW how much the software is worth is not up to you! Its not your decision to price it. Its up to the creator, seller, and retailer. 
If there was less piracy, especially paid-bootlegs (esp. in Asia, they have more of it there) prices would be cheaper.


----------



## gotrootdude (Feb 19, 2003)

I don't believe less piracy will result in lower prices. The entertainment industry has proven that it isn't going to make a difference. The reverse is the truth. If prices were more in line with what people were willing to pay, there would be less piracy. 


Sorry for disagreeing with you on this, Bendanonhu, even though I put you on on a genius level, I just don't think your old enough and or experienced enough to know this yet. 

One thing I have learned from experience is that the people that have normally have gotten where they are by being crooks themselves. Sometimes legally, sometimes not.


----------



## BrianHed (Dec 29, 2001)

I'm in a silly mood.......

(I got this idea from GotRoot's post)

<sitting in kitchen> Brendandonhu! Come here a minute would ya boy? I know this is a little uncomfortable, but in every young man's life there comes a time for this discussion........I know you have already heard alot about it in school but I am only looking out for your safety. There are so many things going around these days. Son..... do you use a virus scanner?

gbrumb poses an interesting idea>>>>>



> Tell you what, you come work for me and I'll let you set your salary. Mind you I won't pay you until you lower your salary to amount I think your labor is worth. Then I'll pay you.


You couldn't afford me then!!!!!!!!!
Every job should be that way.

Today, I just pondered this:
I was driving my POS car when I realized that everytime a commercial came on the radio, I turned to another station with music playing. Is this morally wrong! I accepted the product but did not stay to pay (listen to the commercial).

HEHE, I think everyones point has merit but I'm biased to my own habits. See ya all later.

Brian


----------



## brendandonhu (Jul 8, 2002)

> _Originally posted by BrianHed:_
> *
> < sitting in kitchen > Brendandonhu! Come here a minute would ya boy? I know this is a little uncomfortable, but in every young man's life there comes a time for this discussion........I know you have already heard alot about it in school but I am only looking out for your safety. There are so many things going around these days. Son..... do you use a virus scanner?
> *


Yes, the high schools give them out free. But boys will be boys, so they also offer Windows CDs in case you dont use virus protection.


----------



## Peterds (May 4, 2003)

Why pirate its not just pirating but the combination of hardware and timing.
What I do is buy old software somtimes even junked and put it to use this strategy saves me money from immediatley having empty pockets.Investing in the unknown arena and also allows me not to have to worry about updates with all the fancy new hip software and hardware bugs.
There is another advantage to mention that is with this approach you can talk to more people that have had the time to tinker with the bugs knowing that alot of people have worked out the bugs is perhaps one of the reasons commercial companies and governments take so long to update a matter of stability and the time for learning curves for thier employees.

I am not implying that we all need to go back and use an Altair or Commodore 64 but simply being behind a 2 years is practical unless you are a deveoper and it is absolutley a must and cannot live without .Old software definitley has benefits from hardware and software point and saves the havoc of desperation that can lead to unnecessarily pirating and trying to keep up with the new not to mention pay extra cost if people would just wait out the tide for calm waters without the need to jump in high seas tides to be drowned.
Still there are plenty of impatient people sitting ready to rip out every cent out thier valut to buy just anything new and forget that bugs take a year to work out at least and thier investment depreciates without researching thier practical needs 
I have had the experience of buying hardware where the company website mentioned it would support then dropped the driver support so there are probably other cases of almost never providing support and moving on to new hardware if the company drops the driver support project etc and puts out a new hardware to replace what a end user to do pirate because now his programs do not work and find others that do?.
If I am going to pay for something it should work not this endless bug patching and software patch downloading.I pay with my money to be on the web and to learn with my high speed I dont expect to be downloading tons and megabytes of patches after I have paid for a retail product I expect and that there are many people who have had similar experience problems easily found 

Keeping or buying old software and hardware does not mean a bad thing in comparison to paying for piracy or even having older systems that do the job it is better way to resolve the price curb expenditures and let companies know that we are not paying out of emotion but we work hard to obtain our money its not a charitable donation and that we are not sitting outside to be their bug testers either.We are willing to take steps to force them to make the products they promise and support and to charge us for softare based on our loss of time for the goods they promise us in working order.


----------



## RSM123 (Aug 1, 2002)

Though I don't have any pirated software on my system - I also disagree that lower pricing would result from the elimination of piracy be it burning cds or file sharing. This same argument is used by music shops, insurers, supermarkets, even rail companies regarding the price of train tickets - 'We have to charge more to cover our losses.' Well of course they want to recover profits lost to them, and this method is one way of achieving that. However none of them would ever cut prices for any reason other than a drop in demand for their product / service. The number of people evading their fare on airlines must be nearly zero - but do they slash prices to reflect that ? No - they do it only to beat their competitors.

If MS could produce an OS that could definitely never be burned / ripped would it suddenly cut the price to say $50 - 60 ? Or would they be more likely to increase the price knowing full well you then had no way to obtain it other than to pay. 

For years record companies here charged up to 60% more for new cds than the price in N America - simply because they could. So now many more people are likely to sit and wait until their desired album is discounted.

I don't have any sympathy for people who get prosecuted for illegal copying - but I don't believe any company is motivated by anything other than profit - their responsibiity is to the shareholders not the customers. I can identify with that as I am self employed and would not want to work - only to then be told I wouldn't be getting paid. But companies that use the issue of piracy are merely smokescreening.


----------



## Holly3278 (Jan 29, 2003)

Hi. I have been reading on this thread and I noticed that some of you are angered about the fact that if you have more than one computer in your house, you would have to buy multiple licenses for Windows, each of which is full priced. Well, you are rightly angered. It truthfully infuriates me. Luckily, I do not have to worry about this because I am the only inhabitant of my apartment and I only have one computer. The Windows XP Professional on my computer is fully legal. _However, I did notice that when I reinstalled it the last time, it did not even ask for a CD Key. Weird huh?_

Well, I truthfully think that we ought to take action about this. I feel like we (one or all don't matter) make a web page (you can get a free one at many places such as Geocities) and make it into a letter to Microsoft to which we can complain to him about this. I don't believe we should ask for unlimited licenses for the household but a maximum of 5 because your average household usually doesn't have more than 3 computers anyway. Now please keep in mind that certain aspects of this letter could be changed if you want. But the idea is that you create a web page where people can go and sign a petition. Then, when you have enough names on the petition, send it in to Microsoft. Eventually, they may listen.


----------



## rmay635703 (Nov 7, 2002)

Hmm, Its really quite simple, Use software 5yrs behind its release.

I still use windows 98 and plan to do so until all support and programs that run under it are completely gone, then I will move to Windows 98se which will be extremely cheap and go another year or two. Then when that fails move up to Windows 2k.

Just follow the back of technology and things are MUCH cheaper.

I also tend to disagree that eliminating piracy will increase sales or decrease cost of software. YES I do use pirated software (or freeware depends what its offered as), my $25 OS is legal but many programs which I only plan on using a few times I pirate, use the one time for the specific use and then delete.

Best example was autocad, I needed it for a class I took had it for 2months and deleted it. If I would have had to purchase the program I WOULD NOT HAVE and would have just logged more hours in the computer lab. 

Also many CRAPPY programs that looked good in reviews I got illegally, used and erased as soon as I found they were trash. If I would have had to pay for one I would have been VERY dissatisfied and probably would have refused to buy programs of that type again, like that blasted font editor and that lousy Windes ME program.

Though I have purchased programs I like, such as First Name Almanac, it worked well with our business so I bought it after a trial.

I am a very reluctant buyer in terms of software, if I can't try it and don't know its an excellent program I can use I won't buy it. 

You really can't force people to buy software, there are always programers and ways around copy protection. The people that are willing to buy a program will, those that aren't will not whether they can get it illegally or not.

My 10 cents


----------



## boyoh53 (Nov 28, 2002)

> _As evidence to this, I point to the multitudes of corporations-many of whom are staunch supporters of information rights, that have been collecting consumer data without permission and reproducing it and selling it for years. What gives them the right to treat information about my life like a comodity up for grabs while denying me the right to use their information in a similar manner? A government that is enforcing these "rights" is not doing it fairly. [/B]_


_
hammerbill, that is a fantastic point you have made there and even Mr. Gates alledgedly is doing it.
I couldn't have said it any better. _


----------



## websurfer (Jun 24, 2002)

Well I'm 14 and in a family of 6 and we don't make enough money for anything for computers. I must admit nearly all my programs come from KaAaA, I am ashamed of it, but I don't see what is so wrong about us cheating the government and stuff, don't we get cheated sometimes?


----------



## brendandonhu (Jul 8, 2002)

First of all-how is pirating software cheating the government??? The government doesn't make software.
And your 14. You don't pay taxes. The government does not cheat you.
Don't complain about not having money, you have a computer, dont you? At least you have running water and electricity.
Not that software isn't overpriced, but sometimes people use reasons that don't make sense to rationalize their wrongdoings.


----------



## websurfer (Jun 24, 2002)

I was refering to TSG as a group. And the government thing, it is a mistake I am very tired right now


----------



## brendandonhu (Jul 8, 2002)

Yea im getting tired too  

But what are you referring to TSG as a group about? Most TSGers get their software off kazaa?


----------



## websurfer (Jun 24, 2002)

TSG as the group in the government thing


----------



## brendandonhu (Jul 8, 2002)

Ok. I wouldn't say most people are cheated by the government though. No one is going to stop them from moving to another country if they don't like it in the US.


----------



## websurfer (Jun 24, 2002)

Ok... I'll shut up now


----------



## brendandonhu (Jul 8, 2002)

You should see how argumentative I will be tomorrow after not sleeping


----------



## websurfer (Jun 24, 2002)

Not sure if I want too


----------



## Eccentric (May 22, 2003)

Quality free software abounds, and I include just some of the software I am using below, with links.

Firewall The best free firewall around

Browser cum Explorer + An absolute must to organise not just your websites, but your hard drive as well!

Get rid of Spyware Spybot Search & Destroy may surprise you with what it finds ...

Sophisticated Backup Author needs some financial support to keep developing this superb bit of free software.

Free image viewer/editor which has been around for years and knocks spots of some of the expensive products.

Excellent free virus checker which seems to trap everything.

This is only some of the great free stuff around, much of it the free version of a commercial product. As a result of excellent products like this, I have no need to 'steal', and if I find I use a product a lot, and the price for the commercial version is reasonable then I buy it. The guys who write this stuff can't live on air, and in my view, we should pay a reasonable price for products we get good service from, and that are produced to a high standard.


----------



## CouchMaster (May 26, 2003)

As long as there is at least 2 human beings left on this planet, there will be at least 1 pirate...


----------



## Paquadez (Jun 9, 2003)

As Founder and CEO of a start-up software house, I can hardly condone pirated software.

However, there does come a point where prices become outrageous!

MS's new license deal is a case in point.

In reality, most business apps could happily run on a 486 and Office Pro 97 is already far too feature-loaded. How many business users actually use macros (or know how to!)? nd how many normal business users crete VB aps? The answer is few!

Most people do WP and some spreadsheets.

Which is precisely why my company's Mission Statement backs the open source movement to the hilt!

In fact we are working with one of the global majors, to create SME specific business apps, which use open source platforms on the grounds of low cost.

I remember when video cassettes were first released by major media companies. £75 for one film, when the blank cassettes only cost about £1.50. Was it any wonder that pirates bootlegged them? Same with music CDs and DVDs.

I don't mind paying for good value received: I object to highway robbery and effective monopoly.

The fact that MS will shortly not continue to support NT4 is a good case in point. If the EU Commissioners forced MS do release the source code, then I'm sure many third party software houses (and the open source movement) would support it, prolonging its effective life.

MS and Intel (the famed duopoly!) merely force big business to junk perfectly adequate legacy kit, simply in the chase for extra bucks for Bill.

Software piracy? No. a shortened patent/copyright life (like drugs), yes! then those who have made significant investment in hardware/software can expect far lower TCO.


----------



## XbrvhrtX (Jul 16, 2002)

Sorry to keep this thread going but......

I realise that no matter what is said, this issue will never be resolved because there are only 2 schools of thought, you are either for it or against it, from all the posts i have read so far there does not seem to be a middle ground. Some people have tried to stay on the fence by saying they have had pirate software for educational purposes or they just wanted to see what it was like before they rushed out and bought it  now correct me if I,m wrong but the majority of software has a trial version (excluding OS,s of course) whether it be 30 days or x amount of uses, all be it that said trial version may be missing some factors that the full version has, however, it is enough to let you know if this is the software for you or not, therefor that is no reason to have/posses pirate software.

With that being said, I Have used (and may still have some  ) pirate software, for various reasons but mainly financial, now i know to some of you that this is not a good enough reason.

I do however, own a genuine version of win98se which i have installed in the 3 machines i use, i am appalled that bill would expect me to buy 3 copys of XP ( which i would never do, and don't plan to upgrade to XP for a good few years, as i refuse to beta test for mr gates until he finally gets it right, or as close as its going to be before he moves on to a new OS) to install into each machine. we have 3 cars in the family that i have access to, does this mean i should have 3 licenses (just thought i would put in a car refrence like some other posts  )

I don't believe piracy has a knock on effect to software prices (ask bill how much he,s worth now  ) because you will never really get value for money when it comes to allot of software, yes, developmental costs are very high but once they have been met do you really think these company's are going to slash the price, i think not.

1 particular piece of AV software that i used to use was a pirate version and the reason for that is an EX employee of this company ( i wont name them because i cant remember where i saw the article, but possibly you read it also) had admitted there involvement in developing viruses to up the sales of there AV software....i now use AVG because its free and have faith in the software.

I would however suggest looking for free software before using pirate software, but then i would rather use pirate software than cheap imitation's, if you feel you are getting value for money then pay for it.

And before anyone jumps down my throat about stealing software, how many of you can honestly say they have never recorded a movie that was shown on TV onto video tape on your VCR ( check the end of every movie for the copyright statement) or in the good old days of vinyl taped their favourite album onto cassette for the car, and theres only one reason for having and using kazaa so don't even go there  i also have a CD player in my car and i have copied my originals onto blank CD,s that i leave in the car because no toe rag is going to steal my original copies if they break into my car.

everyone IN MY OPINION has been involved in piracy of sorts at some point in there life.

thanks for letting me rant on 
XbrvhrtX


----------



## Paquadez (Jun 9, 2003)

XbrhrtvX responds honestly.

the analogy about copying music tracks is very good. As I pointed out in my original post, the main reason that drove down the cost of pre-recoded video cassettes, was people bootlegging movies.

Much software in China, as the best (worst??) example is bootleg: now they have joined the WTO, MS and others are trying to make Chinese distributors toe the line: fat chance!

I still maintain, however, that whether it is music tracks, movies of software, if the price is right, then it is not worth copying!

How many times have you bought a new PC with pre-loaded OS, then tried to get support from MS and they say something like "That's a "gray" copy, only supported in Holland..." or some such rubbish. Happened with one machine bought from a major High Street store!

Interesting that the cost of Win OS has risen, dramatically, over the past few years, when the price and spec of PCs and laptops have been respectively going down (price) and zooming up (PCs/ laptops).

Uncel Bill used to almost give Win away, in the early stages: now he has the world by the cojones, he has gone a stage too far, for many.

That's precisely why Linux is gaining such a huge share of the corporate network market, at present.

Simplicity: the keynote to success!


----------



## ttiefenbach (Apr 8, 2002)

My feeling on piracy is it's not right. However, I have used some pirated software, and have cracked software, only to purchase it. I've cracked firewall serials so that I may more effectivly test there stabiliy beyond the trial periods. If the firewall tests failed, I unistalled it and moved on. When I was finally satisfied with a firewall, I purchased the software.

I do use KazaaLite, which in fact is a illegal software as you are cracking the original Kazaa intelectual property. I feel the SpyWare is not legit, so that's why I use it. Personal security is a MUST on the WWW.

I also OWN a copy of WinXP Pro, but never activated it, so in fact it is also pirated. I don't feel the need to register any hardware or software. I did it a long time ago and learned it only leads to unwanted mail, email, and phone calls.

Also, I think the best statement I read on this thread was:



> _Originally posted by Paquadez:_
> *Software piracy? No. a shortened patent/copyright life (like drugs), yes! then those who have made significant investment in hardware/software can expect far lower TCO.*


This is what the public and private institutions should be pushing for. Sites like this one and others, allow for users to get help on other legacy software and hardware, but until software giants are required to release the source code to the public, software giants like MS will be able charge what they want, when they want.

Now we have senators pushing for a bill that allows private institutions to attack a users computer at any cost to the user. I fail to see how this will resolve piracy. It may slow it on the P2P networks, but it can not stop piracy.


----------



## GoneForNow (Jul 22, 2001)

> This is what the public and private institutions should be pushing for. Sites like this one and others, allow for users to get help on other legacy software and hardware, but until software giants are required to release the source code to the public, software giants like MS will be able charge what they want, when they want.





> Software piracy? No. a shortened patent/copyright life (like drugs), yes! then those who have made significant investment in hardware/software can expect far lower TCO.


Somebody please explain to me why a programmer or a corporation which employs an army of programmers should be required to release their source code?
By the same token, patent and copyright terms are going to be longer not shorter.
I'm having a real hard time understanding why someone's work product should be given away.


----------



## brendandonhu (Jul 8, 2002)

I agree gb-if programmers must release source code, then car manufacturers must release blueprints, and restaraunts must release recipes to any and everyone. That doesn't sound so fair, does it?


----------



## BrianHed (Dec 29, 2001)

Ttiefenbach, brendandonhu, and everyone else has an opinion about piracy. What is good about this is there is a system to perform piracy at an individuals desired level. 

As long as there is a system to pirate material lets use it for good. Just use my Freemarket Method (below) and we will together be able to mold the software industry into the shape we want and deserve. The Microsoft monopoly needs a competitor, and game prices need to come down. Let's be the deciding factor!

Slogans: Got Kazaa?, No Cash for that Trash!, I'll buy that for a dollar!

This is my previous post:

Use my freemarket system for purchasing software:

-Pirate it.
-Wait till the price drops to what its worth.
-Then, purchase it!!

Flawless.......

This works best for games. My price range for a good game is $25-30 ;not the $50 they want when they are first released.

Examples: Half-life $39, GTA3 $29, Car Tycoon $Never!

As for OS'es and App's the system doesn't always work out for the maker. I'm still waiting for OfficeXP to come down to what its worth..... I did buy WinXP upgrade for $99 and tons of free stuff. 
I have the latest versions of Autocad and Inventor but these are for learning their software only. They will get their $5000 when the company I work for in the future buys it for me to work with.

Other examples: Adaware $20, CloneCD $30, TSG Forums $20/yr, Gamespy $20, How to Learn Chinese $39


In closing: I chose this system because it's morally correct and CAN BE DONE. Wouldn't it great to get a car and make payments equal to the worthiness of it! -but you CAN'T... 

Brian


----------



## Paquadez (Jun 9, 2003)

Interesting thread this is turning out!

I was particularly focused on this statement by gbrumb, vis:-

_______________________________________________

Somebody please explain to me why a programmer or a corporation which employs an army of programmers should be required to release their source code?
By the same token, patent and copyright terms are going to be longer not shorter.
I'm having a real hard time understanding why someone's work product should be given away.

_____________________________________________

Also the earlier analogy concerning giving away the blueprints for cars.

Well now, in the EU car manufacturers are now being forced to put details of their vehicles into the public domain, in order that Third Parties can provide after sales service and support.

As an example, if the Electronic Management System Black Box on my Beema dies, then I only had one previous choice: a Bosch replacement (not a new product you understand - an exchange unit) which costs about UK £ 850. Now, I can buy a service exchange unit (Third Party) for £200. Some saving! And after all, it might only have been a penny diode that had failed!

All software and hardware has a finite life span. With Gates and Intel junking the whole architecture every two to three years, not only does the planet suffer, in ecological terms of reference, the Total Cost of Ownership (TCO) grows higher every time the Wintel Duopoly act. It was for precisely this reason that in the USA the Sherman Anti Trust Law became statute. Mainly to combat the excesses of one John D Rockefeller and others, who held the USA by the proverbials and were stifling real economic progress.

We have to face a reality here: ICT has become all pervasive in our lives: at work, at home, in hospitals, in the military in government and most of all, in industry and manufacturing.

People can chose whether they buy the latest CD album from some brain dead geek who can't sing in tune: I don't, 'cos I like real music, like R & B, blues, jazz and 60s "Real" Rock and Roll.

However, the world cannot chose whether or not it becomes wired.

As the world moves ever nearer to the realities of the Digital Supply Chain, smaller companies (particularly) could be frozen out, leaving huge multinationals controlling everything. And remember, most multinationals have an annual revenue which is far greater than the total budget of all but a few large countries! Yet people can elect (sort off!) the pols to represent their interests. None of us "elect" multinationals to power. As Enron has demonstrated and MCI- and others, it can be very hard to build-in accountability and integrity to a multinational's business activities.

Microsoft have now reached the point where they are not offering true value for money. Their sheer size strangles smaller software houses and will, if left unchecked, prevent innovation.

My earlier point about the life of patents and copyright is simple; with drugs, on compassionate human grounds, their patent life is short.

If MS were compelled to release the source code for (e.g.), NT4 then those who still wanted to use it could do so. After all, MS don't want it, they want everyone to roll out a Win solution and use .net! In other words, MS have junked NT4.

This approach would then force MS to offer real rather than hyped and unessential "Improvements", to compete (like real businesses as against an effective monopoly), offering true innovations and value-benefits with their new product offerings. If they were great, then the market would decide and no one would support NT4, 'cos in sheer economic terms, it wouldn't be cost-effective.

It is well worth remembering, that in the 1960s (yes: I'm that old -cry for me !) when IBM introduced the World's first Digital Business Mainframe, the system 360, one could not buy it. They cost circa $1,000,000 per year every year to rent! Anti-Trust action (by their competitors and a strong user forum) forced anti-trust legislation to cause Big Blue to offer a rent or buy option. Same with Xerox.

Big Blue also tried to prevent Third Parties writing applications for their systems - on the basis that it broke their patents, since if the code could run on IBM machines, coders knew the IBM architecture. Fortunately for the World and us all, that particular Big Blue Power Play failed.

I posit that MS is currently in an identical position to IBM in the 60s/70s. In order to promote true competition and thus innovation and real value, MS's monopoly position needs rapid and considered review.

The ***** cats of Attorneys General have failed us all:shame.

Please remember that I am the Founder and CEO of a software house, trying to develop and sell product: my simplistic strategy is that if I offer it a realistic prices and add-value in various ways, then people will buy it (it won't be worth stealing) and my volumes will go through the roof: basic law of marketing. It's called the Price:Volume Mix.

I accept that some smart ***** will break the anti-copying codes, but I promise you I won't lose any sleep over that!




:up:


----------



## Paquadez (Jun 9, 2003)

Glad you liked my post, ttiefenbach.

Thanks for the support.

I believe that this issue is critical to the evolution of software.

Like micro-electronics, in which I was involved in the early 80s, leading-edge designs in a short space of time, became "Commodity Parts". When INTEL built their first micro-processor, it wasn't long before copycat versions appeared........................and the prices tumbled down and down .

I have still, two of the original Texas Digital calculators. No memory, no sexy keys, just a simple floating point calc. Yet they sold for like £99 in those days (which was lots of bread!).

If the micro-electronics industry had behaved like Microsoft, we would be paying probably $2,000 for a cellphone, $10,000 for a PC and probably $50,000 for a laptop.

Trouble is though, as I stated previously, when MS started selling Win O/S to PC manufacturers, they almost gave it away. However, as PC prices have tumbled - think what you now get for $500! - Win O/S has gone up and up and up as a percentage of the total cost of a new PC to the manufacturers as OEM software.

I like your idea of testing before you buy: I'm sure we've all done the same thing. Problem is the 30 day free trial is a bit like AOL's 1,000 free hours on line. Yeh, provided you use it within one month. Don't have to be Einstein to work out the improbability of that one!

I'm sure we have all bought legitimate software, only to find it sucks! And is full of bugs.

Above all else, I don't expect to buy a lawnmower and have to pay an annual license fee as Spring comes around and I need to cut the grass!

Software is now (well, O/Ss and productivity suites are) a commodity part and ought to be priced accordingly.


----------



## GoneForNow (Jul 22, 2001)

Paquadez.........You and I have a fundamental difference of opinion as to the ownership of one's work. I lean more towards the capitalist model, you more towards the socialist. I believe in long term patents and copyrights. Apparently, at least in this country, the court system agrees by consistently recognizing the value of one's effort as being worth protection. Nor do I equate software with drugs as being that valuable to mankind so as to allow anyone to override basic patent and copyright protection.

One of the best legal minds as well as litigator in the United States (and probably the world) was unable to convince an appellate court that Windows and its protege, Internet Explorer, was in complete violation of the Sherman Act. Microsoft business methods are what the court smacked down, not its products. The products dominate because, for the average non-geek, they are easy to use.



> Software is now (well, O/Ss and productivity suites are) a commodity part and ought to be priced accordingly.


Assuming that is true, the market should set the price not some government or commission.



> As the world moves ever nearer to the realities of the Digital Supply Chain, smaller companies (particularly) could be frozen out, leaving huge multinationals controlling everything. And remember, most multinationals have an annual revenue which is far greater than the total budget of all but a few large countries! Yet people can elect (sort off!) the pols to represent their interests. None of us "elect" multinationals to power. As Enron has demonstrated and MCI- and others, it can be very hard to build-in accountability and integrity to a multinational's business activities.


You build a better mousetrap and I don't care how big your competitor is you will lead the market. BTW, MCI created more secondary businesses that employed more people them MCI did. How many hundreds of small long distance providers as well as service providers to MCI have been created in the last 15 years? MCI stared as a very small company that challenged the biggest dog in the business, ATT and Ma Bell, and won. Enron had the same impact in the energy business by creating more opportunities for the small businessman. Multinationals are not the big bad bogeyman you make them out to be. The size of the business has nothing to do with integrity or accountability, those are human conditions. Like any business they have a life-cycle and can be driven out of business or absorbed if they don't lead the market.

BTW, I'm not a big fan of Microsoft. I'm experimenting with Linux on my home server right now. If I can get it to work well I'll install it on my 9 computer network at work. My, again, fundamental problem is the belief that you (that is an editorial "you") have the right to set the price of my product or to tell me I have to put it in the public domain after a very short life span.

BrianHed.........You can sugarcoat it all you want. You can attempt to justify it all you want. But engaging in that activity is called theft. As I said before, you come work for me, when you have lowered your price to amount I think you're worth I'll pay you. Not the price you think your labor is worth but what I think its worth.


----------



## BrianHed (Dec 29, 2001)

Nothing gets sugarcoated at Brian's Freemarket!

If I could rob a bank and get away with it, I wouldn't -because I think I should work for my money. Now that I can take software without getting caught, I can pay what its worth.

Do you think software prices are fair?

I would like to see the most awaited PC game ever (Half-Life 2) introduced at $10 or $15 instead of $50. I guarantee it would match or exceed the profit that they would get if the intro price were $50. For that money I would actually buy a copy for all 3 of my PC's.

Its not going to happen so I will buy 1 copy and pirate the rest.... 

BTW: I also disagree with gbrumb about the source code....

BTW2: ...and if people got paid by their worth, I would continue to work my *** off! $$$$$$


----------



## GoneForNow (Jul 22, 2001)

> Do you think software prices are fair?


It doesn't matter whether I think the price is fair or not. The question is whether I will pay the price asked. If a lot of people don't pay the price asked the price will go down. You have what we call situational ethics. Meaning "I can steal software and not get caught so it okay". What if stealing software carried the same penalty as robbing a bank?


----------



## GoneForNow (Jul 22, 2001)

> Do you think software prices are fair?


I thought about this a little more. I don't and you don't get to determine if the price is fair or not. The company/programmer gets to pick the price and put in on the market. The market determines whether its worth the price. That means you, me and every other purchaser or, more importantly, every purchaser who doesn't buy the program. We, collectively, by not buying determine whether the price is fair or not. By pirating software you actually cause the system not to work as intended.

BTW, there are alternatives to Microsoft, both as to desktop applications as well as serverside applications (NOS and so forth). The problem with Linux, Unix, etc is the inability to sell to mainstream corporate America/Europe/Asia. If Linux could lock up a few more government accounts it would go a long way in breaking the strong hold MS has on the corporate world. But that is a different subject for a different thread.


----------



## pyritechips (Jun 3, 2002)

What GB is referring to, I believe, is the free enterprise concept of "supply and demand".

One aspect of this is, like he said, that if consumers believe a product is too expensive. The supplier can make note of poor sales and lower prices until the product seems more affordable to the customers. This is called "feedback".

One problem with piracy is: If many less people bought M$ operating systems, then less hardware and software would be designed for them and maybe more would be designed for alternate OS's. But if there is a high usage of pirated OS's then there is still a high demand for the support products.

I had Linux Redhat installed but gave up on it because I could not find any drivers for my hardware. If more of the users of pirated MS OS's used alternate OS's like Redhat then it would be worth the while of the hardware priducers to write, and include, alternate OS drivers with their product.

All I am trying to say is that high scale MS OS piracy artificially increases the efforts given to support products.

I am sure GB will correct me if I am wrong.


----------



## Paquadez (Jun 9, 2003)

Thanks for comments gbrumb.

I am neither: I am, of course a capitalist in the sense that I am in business and have been for many years.

The old hoary myth about the free market won't wash, I'm afraid!

Neither will the other old myth about the better mousetrap. What about Sony's Betamax, for example? Far superior to VHS.

Size, funding base and marketing clout will always win out over either better design or ethics.

Having worked in/with various areas which control, totally, what is meant to be "A Free Market", - e.g.s diamonds, coffee, oil and gas, automotive, etc. I have experienced the sort of market moving power of the big boys.

When any product, be it software or whatever, reaches the point that it controls the market, then I'm afraid that's monopoly.

By the way, just on a point of accuracy: Linux has already penetrated circa 30% of the global server market, according to Computer Weekly and Gartner and Forrester. Or perhaps they are all wrong!

My software house is working with one of the global majors (NOT MS!) and they are dedicated to Open Source as, increasingly are IBM.

Many governments are insisiting on Open Source based products, in order to preserve the future integrity of freedom to information for their citizens.

Now, I do not disagree with the fundamental dynamic that the worker is worthy of his hire: I do, however, disagree with the concept of "Stiffing".

MS have clearly, dictated terms to PC manufacturers, on O/Ss and have (acccording to trade reports) terrorised smaller PC manufacturers who would not toe the line. That's not Free Trade, that's monopoly.

Would the free market accept, for example, that everytime Ford changed their model range, users had to junk their car, van, SUV whatever and buy a new one, simply because Ford no longer supported it in terms of spare parts? Of course not and in fact, a huge industry has grown up, worldwide, manufacturing "Pattern Parts" for all sorts of cars. Most car manufacturers have fought this........................and lost. Same with aero spares.

In a Microsoft type world, this would not be possible.

MS occupy a peculiar position: as the world has become totally dependant on their O/Ss to work, they (MS) can call the tune, whichever way they like.

Dangerous!

I am only saying that when MS junk a product, like NT4, allowing true Third Party support, will allow the user to either continue with their "Old" system, or if they feel the benefits outweight the disadvantages, they will fork out for the new system.

Basic Cost:Benefit Analysis in fact. Standard business tool as you know.

If it aint broke, don't fix it. The Wintel Duopoly, however, are now heading to Palladium: what that will do, I shudder to 
think...............

MS are using their huge muscle, to dictate to the market, not offer true and real user choices. That aint right!


----------



## Paquadez (Jun 9, 2003)

Sorry GB

Forgot one hugely critical point.

The only reason that MCI, GTE and all the others were able to star their operations in the first place, was because the US Government accepted that for the US PSTN to improve, they (Government) had to create some effective competition away from Ma Bell.

Government action broke up the effective A T & T monopoly.

Fairly obviously, a cost-competitive and feature rich coms backbone, has been the basis for ARPANET and the web, itself.

If Government had not broken up the monopoly, what would have happpened in terms of coms evolution?

Thus nationwide coms, different local and long distance carriers, were seen (correctly) as a critical core component for enterprise. Thus coms networks had become a commodity product.

What's the difference between A T & T's earlier monopoly and Microsoft's present one??


In the UK because the Thatcher government were about as effective as Teflon Tony (the closet Tory), they chose a stupid way to "Demonopolise" BT: which is why broadband rollout has been slow and is still (relatively) expensive, because in fact, BT still enjoy an effective monopoly! Yet despite that, the flake they put in charge (Peter Bonfield) even lost money when sitting on a monopoly! But hey, he was the guy who blew away Britain's last serious IT manufacturer, ICT and received a knighthood for failing!

Bloody strange place this UK..............................


----------



## XbrvhrtX (Jul 16, 2002)

I love a good debate  

Now where can I start, the thread has evolved into so many different directions (as all good debates do).

From the original post from Somak, which was the question about using cracked copys of software. The decision to use pirate software or not will almost always be an economical one, if you can afford to buy it, you probably will, if you cant, you will look for a crack or keygen etc. By definition cracked software use IS theft, But by law of the jungle its survival of the fittest (or poorest), I believe that piracy will only ever be a thorn in the side for a software developer, not there down fall, I usually believe greed would be there downfall but uncle bill proves me wrong.

Now, as for uncle bill, he's The last person who can complain about piracy, The original concept of GUI was never his, I believe this was information supplied during pillow talk between uncle bill and steve Jobs, I think it went something like this, "hey bill", "yes steve", "see what the boys down at xerox have come up with", "that sounds like a great idea, steve", (bill rubs hands in greed) and the rest is history  xerox now make photocopiers, apple are out in the shadows and uncle bill can afford to buy most small country's.

Now to the question of source code, I don't believe this is a piracy issue, to me piracy is, for example, finding the crack for a particular piece of software, not, getting the code for windows, re manipulating it, re packaging it under another name and legitimately re selling it at a quarter of the price. That would be software theft, however if source codes were to be released it could only benefit the consumer and make company's like micro$oft make sure they release QUALITY software if they want to stay as market leaders, not that i believe they are actually market leaders, more like market stranglers, because if things stay the way they are now, you wont even be able to buy a car unless its "micro$oft compatible"


----------



## XbrvhrtX (Jul 16, 2002)

Oh, and i forgot to add  

Multinationals ARE the big bad bogeymen we believe them to be, GB

There are to many politicians getting a kick back for them to be Driven out of the market place and to large to be absorbed, they lead the market place because they prevent anyone else getting in.

Take for example oil company's, in particular, petrol (or on the other side of the pond "gas") there have been several alternatives for powering the motor car but only now (perhaps, because of environmental issues) are they coming to light. I believe during WW2 when fuel was mostly restricted to the war machine, alternatives were used to power the humble family car, i believe cars where converted to run on gas (the stuff that comes out your cooker not a pump at a service station) and only now has this concept been slowly introduced, as well as electricity to power vehicles. Why has it taken so long....I believe its because the oil company's have fought these alternatives for at least 50 years, ensuring there hold on the consumer. Granted there have always been several company's to choose from but there was only a give or take penny difference in pricing between them all

only recently have monopoly commissions been stepping in to help the consumers here in the UK, It wasn't that long ago if you wanted electricity you only had 1 supplier or the telephone there was 1 supplier or gas for heating there was only 1 supplier. In saying that, prices haven't been tumbling down but at least we now have a choice of who supplies us.

I know this doesn't have a lot to do with software piracy but it maybe is the reason why people will always look for the cheapest alternative, if you could pirate GAS, ELECTRICITY, TELEPHONE CONNECTIONS, PETROL etc I'm sure there would be large ques at all the windows, ready to buy it up


----------



## GoneForNow (Jul 22, 2001)

Paquadez..........This part of our discussion doesn't really add to the the debate but, ATT and Ma Bells got broken up because of a suit filed by MCI. It was the judges ruling that forced the feds to take over the breakup.

The difference between ATT and Microsoft? ATT had *no* competition. It was, for all intents and purposes, treated like a utility. MCI changed that.

Linux and Unix control over 50% of the server market; sounds like a monopoly in the making. Why is IBM being sued over the Unix code?

I'm being a smartarse. Numbers alone do not make a monopoly, they are one factor which, standing alone, means nothing.

Sony and Betamax? Please, think Apple and Macs. The next one to hit the dirt is Sony and memory sticks. You'd think they would have learned their lesson.

Source code. No one has yet to answer my question. By what God given right or law do you have to force a company to reveal its source code?
Second, you want to dominate a market? License your code, don't take a Sony/Apple stance cause no matter how superior your product you have forced yourself to become a niche player.

So what does this have to do with pirating software.....nothing. However, I still take the position that you (editorial you) do not have the right to take someone else's work product just cause you think its over priced. Justify it anyway you want, it is still theft.


----------



## GoneForNow (Jul 22, 2001)

XbrvhrtX........Yeah I heard that J. Paul Getty is buried with the only working model of a carburetor that gets a 100 miles to the gallon.


----------



## Paquadez (Jun 9, 2003)

Thanks for the coninuation, GB.

__________________________________________________
Paquadez..........This part of our discussion doesn't really add to the the debate but, ATT and Ma Bells got broken up because of a suit filed by MCI. It was the judges ruling that forced the feds to take over the breakup.

The difference between ATT and Microsoft? ATT had no competition.
__________________________________________________

Surely GB that's the definition of monopoly??

___________________________________________________

It was, for all intents and purposes, treated like a utility. MCI changed that.

____________________________________________________

Yes and so was BT, but it was and sitll effectively is, a monopoly, 'cos it owns most of the cogent line network and exchanges and switching centres!

____________________________________________________

Linux and Unix control over 50% of the server market; sounds like a monopoly in the making. Why is IBM being sued over the Unix code?

____________________________________________________

You can't have it both ways GB! Remember your analogy about "A better Mousetrap"?? Well, of course, Linix is a better mousetrap!

Just so happens that Linus Torvald gifted it to the world, just like Berners-Lee and his gift of HTML, Hyperlinks et al.

____________________________________________________

I'm being a smartarse.

____________________________________________________

Yes I think I can safely agree with that comment, GB!

____________________________________________________

Source code. No one has yet to answer my question. By what God given right or law do you have to force a company to reveal its source code?

Second, you want to dominate a market? License your code, don't take a Sony/Apple stance cause no matter how superior your product you have forced yourself to become a niche player.

____________________________________________________

Answer: when one product, mainly the MS O/S in this case, comes to dominate the world in the way that it has and the IPR owner uses sheer marketing size and muscle to force the market in the direction IT wants, rather than allowing true free market forces to lead the market, then that compromises free enterprise, governments, society and even economic longevity.

Which is precisely why the Sherman Anti-Trust Law was passed.

____________________________________________________

So what does this have to do with pirating software.....nothing.

____________________________________________________

Oh yes it does! If one company monopolise a market and then charge exorbitant nay obscene prices for their product and then not content with that, try and stiff commited users, who have invested huge sums on systems, eventually, the market, society and government will rebel.

After all what are we buying? two penn'th of a blank CD, a cheap cardboard box, a badly written user manual, poor support and a product which is so full of bugs, it takes fix after fix after fix to get it right, by whioch time, "The New Improved" version is then released and the company refuse to support the older product!

Is it any real wonder that people copy software???

This was tried in the automotive industry, like Ford in the 60s; let the user de-bug the product. They were all at it and lost so much market share, that the Japanese and German manufacturers destroyed them. But it aint so easy to copy a car!
___________________________________________________

However, I still take the position that you (editorial you) do not have the right to take someone else's work product just cause you think its over priced. Justify it anyway you want, it is still theft. [/B][/QUOTE]

I agree totally GB! As I said right at the beginning!

However, I still believe that when a commodity becomes a strategic bastion of any organised society, society has to react, in order to preserve the status quo ante.


----------



## Paquadez (Jun 9, 2003)

Nice post xb!

___________________________________________________

Now, as for uncle bill, he's The last person who can complain about piracy, The original concept of GUI was never his, I believe this was information supplied during pillow talk between uncle bill and steve Jobs, I think it went something like this, "hey bill", "yes steve", "see what the boys down at xerox have come up with", "that sounds like a great idea, steve", (bill rubs hands in greed) and the rest is history xerox now make photocopiers, apple are out in the shadows and uncle bill can afford to buy most small country's.
____________________________________________________

Yes, funny about that; Xerox had all the cogent analysis from PARC and then Wozniak and Jobs exploited GUI. Then of course, there was that famed court case between Uncle Bill and Apple.

Xerox have in fact almost lost out in copiers, too and are only a shadow of their former self...................smart strategy.

Yes as I said earlier, having been involved, Oil and Gas is an effective monopoly. I have graphed crude prices over the past few years and overlaid UK pump prices of petrol (gas). Strange how petrol prices rise inexorably and particularly, overnight if crude spikes upwards, yet when crude goes down, petrol stays the same of continues going up: and it isn't just taxes, I have factored that out!

The reality is however, that major oil companies sign what are called 6 X 6 X 5 contracts, traditionally, which means that their prices are fixed for at least six months at the then "Post Price" (OPEC) or whatever deal they can achieve. Thus they are stiffing the consumer for often up to six months before the price rises!

Despite three separate "Investigations" in the UK under the Torys, the findings were that there was no price fixing between the then Seven Sisters as they were called who are now only sort of three! Helped, of course that Thatcher;s husband was in the oil buz! Call me an old cynic if you like!

Source code release: yes...............it would at least help Third PartySuppliers to ensure that their apps ran under the O/S without adding even more bugs to those created by Uncle Bill and Aunty Steve.

On a lighter not xb, yes, during WWII my late Dad ran a Jag SS saloon, with a gasbag on the top.

He filled it from his local garage, via a sort of "Giant Hoover" tube, which was wound with zillions of turns of fine steel wire.

He had an arrangement with the garage owner, who was a chum, to have a key to the pump, as he often came home late after fire watching in the East End of London, where his business was.

So one night, Dad was particularly tired. He forgets to take off the filling pipe from the gas bag and just drives away, scattering thousands of coils of fine steel wire all over the Hertfordshire countryside.

The Army and AIrfoce experts called out the boffins, convinced that they had discovered a new German Secret Weapon, dropped from the air!

Dad was not too popular at that time!


----------



## XbrvhrtX (Jul 16, 2002)

Maybe he should have reconsidered driving ze "SS"


----------



## Paquadez (Jun 9, 2003)

Like it.................

I know that this is getting a tad off the core of the thread, but hey, that's what TSG is all about, init?

On another occasion, Dad and his Yard Manager - on firewatching duty - were just up the road as a V2 descended from the stratosphere and blew a huge hole. A chunk of the guidance system fizzed through the air and landed jutside his premises.

Well Dad and the Yard Manager had it on the reception counter and were busily making with the screwdrivers, to see what is was and what it might do, when a large London copper walked in, to check why the lights were on.

It was, of course, an offence about one up from Treason, since one was meant to telephone the authorities and hand in the bits, in order that the boffins could try and work out what it was and how it might work, etc.

Guess I inherited Dad's love of things mechanical and technical.


----------



## XbrvhrtX (Jul 16, 2002)

Thats what I like about you paq....

you could have just said "fell from the sky" but, ohhh nooo, you said,


> descended from the stratosphere


and i hope your dad and his boss were not trying to pirate the hardware


----------



## GoneForNow (Jul 22, 2001)

Paquadez..........My mother's family tells the story that they had a 500 pounder hit in the backyard and plow itself under the foundation of the house. Of course everyone ran for their lives but it turned out to be a dud. Upon returning after the air raid sirens had ended my mother was heard to tell the air raid warden that they were going on a little trip and "To please have that removed from the house before we return."

My enterprising uncles have dug up small bomb shelters and turned them into sheds for their gardening tools.


----------



## Paquadez (Jun 9, 2003)

Thanks Xb.

I thought it sounded more fun.............................

That's the problem with being, amongst other things, a writer: we always look for neat phrases. Sounded more sort of well, dramatic, too. Still, that's what the V2 did of course; went outside the Earth's atmosphere and plunged down from the outer limits of space.

In all probability, Dad would have turned it into something useful, like a gyroscope toy for the kids. Steal the hardware design? Perish the thought (nice slant Xb!).

Tried to visit the V1/V2 Museum just outside St. Omer early this year (la Cupel). It was closed. going back that way later and will see it then. Should be very interesting.

Loved the story about your Mother, gb!

I can imagine the thoughts in the ARP's head............................

Actually, with loads of other things, I have an original ARP brass bell. Turned it into a door bell, but people kept pulling far too hard on the chain and it not only drove my wife and I mad, eventually the chain broke. The sign "Please pull gently" was obviously seen as a challenge.

Bomb shelters into tool sheds: that's a neat wheeze.

Amazing to me, being a gray beard, how much stuff was around just after WWII and was used, entrepreneurially. Joe Bamford (the guy who founded JCB) made his first money working in an old Nissan Hut - nothing to do with Jap cars! - making trailers for farmers out of bits of scrap air raid shelters, that could be towed behind their tractors. The rest, as they say, is history.

Ah me, the perversity of humankind.

Nice day to all.


----------



## somak_de (Dec 1, 2002)

it's amazing to see how many different direction this thread had travelled since the time i last visited this site(almost one and half month ago)...With so many different analogies and "bill bashing"

why i was away from my favourite forum...that has something to do with bill uncle. One fine morning i have decided to upgrade from "me" to "xp". And what happen is that my modem (a nice 
motorolla sm56) got undetected. I searched for it's driver everywhere in the net..but allas!!

i sent it to a service center and after much testing they said that no way this modem could run on Xp. so i bought a NEW modem loosing a good amount of money.

Well i should have prepared for that but ....You can understand how i am feeling right now!!!!

well many said about freewares as a replacement of costly softwares. I have tried a lot of them for past few months and want to share them with u guys. i made a list of them with their 
features. it became a long list so without posting them here i made a webpage with them which happens to be my first. i admit that it is a boring website with no design still you can try them. many of them are discussed here.if u know about more exiting freewares u can post them here or mail me.
here is the link
http://www.geocities.com/somak_de

Lastly ...liked those WW2 story very much.HAAHAA!!!


----------



## brendandonhu (Jul 8, 2002)

Somak-Change your link for Kazaa Lite to http://k-lite.tk


----------



## GoJoAGoGo (Dec 26, 2002)

somak_de:

The link for lurkhere.com brings you to a page that tells you:

Hmmm... Apparently you have attempted to use an unauthorized link to one of our downloads. Don't worry... all that shaking was just to get your attention.

What is happening is sort of like your neighbor hooking up to your electric meter without permission. He gets all the benefits and you pay all the bills....unknowingly.

You may want to contact the unscrupulous webmaster of the site you just came from. Let him know just how little you appreciate being made an accomplice to download theft. After all, he's encouraging you to steal our bandwidth, while allowing you to think it's really provided by his site.

Because we know you clicked the link in good faith, please stand by as we forward you to our download page.

This link bring you directly to lurkhere.com:

http://www.lurkhere.com/~nicefiles/


----------



## somak_de (Dec 1, 2002)

thank you brendan and gojo. i have changed those link.
actually i downloaded spybot from the link which i posted previously. it seems that it does not exist now.

thank you again for visiting my site


----------



## GoJoAGoGo (Dec 26, 2002)

You're welcome...


----------



## somak_de (Dec 1, 2002)

XbrvhrtX said "The decision to use pirate software or not will almost always be an economical one, if you can afford to buy it, you probably will, if you cant, you will look for a crack or keygen etc."
let me ask you a question: you can't afford so many things (like i want a sony handicam but dont have the money to buy it) but did you ever think of stealing them? So why so many people go for pirated software? 
1.Because they feel that what they are getting is not worth of such high price
2.Softwares (and other digital content) can be easily copied.

As for the second nothing can be done. As for the first one The big players can do something. In this thread, i found many posters are actively involved in software industry.I would like to ask them why softwares are so costly? As far as research is concerned then which industry does not invest heavily on research? From automobile to medicine everybody do it. still they do not charge such a high price for their product.

Lowering of price can have an wonderful effect on industry. here in india,3/4 years earlier an audio cd used to cost Rs.400/- or $8 (1$ = Rs. 50) and VCD $16.Though i did not have a cd player then,but i watched that none of my friends bought the originals because they were getting smuggled pirated cd (sometimes with video) on say $1. But a year earlier when all recording company in india drastically lowered the price from $8 to $2,piracy problem has been reduced a lot. pirated things still cost $1 but most of us prefer buying the original at $2.

waiting for your answer...


----------



## XbrvhrtX (Jul 16, 2002)

> _Originally posted by somak_de:_
> *XbrvhrtX said "The decision to use pirate software or not will almost always be an economical one, if you can afford to buy it, you probably will, if you cant, you will look for a crack or keygen etc."
> let me ask you a question: you can't afford so many things (like i want a Sony handicam but don't have the money to buy it) but did you ever think of stealing them? So why so many people go for pirated software?
> 1.Because they feel that what they are getting is not worth of such high price
> ...


In my opinion these 2 forms of "theft" are completely different, If you go into a store and steal, for example, the Sony handicam this in my definition would be theft, however the use of pirate software does not have the same stigma attached to it.

To elaborate, if your friend goes out and buys an audio CD and you borrow it from him and copy it onto a blank CD ( if you have the capability to do it) or a blank tape, this is theft, you have a copy of a CD which you did not pay for, the record company or artist does not get the income from there work (boohoo) but i think almost everybody reading this has at sometime or other done exactly that, without losing any sleep about it, however these same people (I hope ) would never dream of going into a store and stealing the latest handicam.

People will always justify there actions (like I do) when they believe they are not the actual thief, e.g, if someone offers you an item, brand new and in its box with a retail price tag of say $500 but you can have it for $50 they would get whiplash from reaching around so fast to there back pocket for the money, or someone at a car-boot sale has a dirty old painting in a nice frame for $25 and you know there is an old master behind all that dirt, how many of us are going to tell the seller what he actually has, and its value is much higher or would you just buy it, clean it and put it into an upmarket auction and look forward to the $1000's your about to receive. I believe most people would always think of the benefit to themselves and very very few people can take the moral high ground when it comes to "theft" in all its disguises.

PS audio CD's here in the UK work out at around £13 - £15 ($19 - $21 approx) per album and more for a double album or 35p for a blank disk if you have a CD writer, which would you go for


----------



## Fyzbo (Feb 6, 2002)

Lowering cost will always decrease pirating. I tell everyone I know that it's better to buy a DVD then to copy one. They will have better quality for not too much more. Since even the cheapest blank dvds are $2 and you need 2 of them it's just not worth it! With software however we're talking about items that go into the $100s of dollars. The software I buy is always $60 or under so if everything was $60 or under I would just buy the software I wanted, not look for alternate methods.


----------



## Paquadez (Jun 9, 2003)

Yes Fyzbo

And that's what I said in earlier post on this subject.

By now, software (particularly operating systems) ought to be far cheaper. In fact, it ought to be priced at what the Silicon Valley folks describe (when talking about basic silicon) as a "Commodity Part", 'cos that's what it is.

I also used the example of original pricing strategy on videos.

In so far as music CDs and DVDs are concerned, the music companies insane greed amd desire to pay under-talented One Day Wonders mega bucks will become their Achilles heel.

And that's why Napster was so successful!

Buyers don't want to buy one leg of an artist, they merely want to listen to the music - for a short while and then probably junk it.

My software company has the Mission Statement to make business software (i) Simple and (ii) Cheap and thereby achieve large volumes.

All the best


----------



## Gunspeed_Gun (Aug 4, 2003)

I hope you all don't think of me an an immoral person, bcause I am a Christian. But I am part of the hacker underground, no not the lame KaZaA that gets stuff from us then usually changes its name to something else, I'm part of an IRC network that shares files, such as Movies, Games, Mp3s etc. And just to give you my point of view, I think it's completly ok to share files with other users, its not file TRADING, and definitely not file SELLING, its file SHARING, sharing people, no idffrent than burning your friend the new Disturbed CD  peace out


----------



## dark4une (Apr 29, 2003)

I agree, if I make a CD for my mom's wedding, sisters birthday or myself, it's my business, I'm not selling it, besides I have read alot about the makeup of the RIAA board and not everything they do supports the industry.


----------



## davef (Aug 26, 2003)

The only time I've borrowed software is when I have thought abbout buying it and wanted to try it before spending out several hundreds of pounds on a original copy. I did this both with PS 5.5 and Dreamweaver. I since brought both originals and their respective up-dates,PS 7 and StudioMX. At the time you couldn't download trial copies like you can now so there was no way I was going to spend £600+ on something I couldn't check out to see if it was worth spending this sort of money on. One big added benefit of having the "real thing" is the support you can get. I've had no end of help from Adobe with PS 7 when we had problems which has more than saved me a lot of the purchase price in saved time. 

Dave


----------



## Eccentric (May 22, 2003)

I first posted to this thread in May, and boy, it has developed!

In that post I argued against pirating full-stop.

However, since reading some of the excellent to-ing and fro-ing I have modified my view.

Where there are competitive products, including excellent free versions around, then I think that pirating is difficult to justify, particularly as most of the products which aren't free are fairly reasonably priced.

Thus, if there is a reasonable choice, provided by a competitive environment, I think we should help feed the developers, and reward their efforts.

However, where a monopoly situation exists, and where National Governments effectively do nothing to redress this situation, then I think we have a position which not only damages and stifles competition, but leads to a situation where the monopoly company can effectively take their customers to the cleaners.

As has already been pointed out, this is a situation where, despite the fact that we supposedly live in 'democratic' countries, major world-wide corporations are effectively more powerful than governments, and are exploiting everyone, doing such things as experimenting on us with food, drugs and a vast number of other exploitations which we, as 'good' citizens, are meant to take lying down.

My current understanding is that there is no viable alternative to my current operating system, and the company responsible for producing this stream of OSs are still adopting strong-arm tactics to stifle any competition they can get away with, as they have for years, almost unopposed by any government. It appears that most law suits bought against them in terms of their monopoly position either fail or are overturned on appeal.

Therefore we are left with the obviously exploitative situation where, as has already been pointed out, we are paying far more for our operating systems than would be reasonable if the product had followed a similar competitive life cycle, like cars, etc. etc. and are being ripped off. Worse - as was pointed out with the car, they stop making spare parts (supporting the product) forcing us in to a situation where we are effectively driving a dangerous vehicle (particularly as most 'patches' are to plug the security colander), with no choice left but to shell out more money for extremely questionable benefits other than security and stability, (which surely should have been present in the first place!? - "Sorry Mr. Customer, your car may go off the road occasionally, and will only keep going long enough to do a 100 mile journey 8 times out of ten.") and cosmetic changes.

Under these circumstances, we have 2 choices:

1. Support this unsupportable situation by continuing to hand over vast and excessive sums of money to replace a product which provides exactly what we want in terms of functionality, but can't continue to use because it is so full of security holes, bugs, leaks etc that it is dangerous to continue to use it when support is withdrawn. 

OR

2. Protest at this situation by undermining the basis for it, and pirating it wherever we can.

I would suggest that under these circumstances, pirating is probably a duty.


----------



## Paquadez (Jun 9, 2003)

An excellent post, Eccentric!:up: 

And now, of course, the Unholy Duopoly, Microsoft and Intel, in conjunction with IBM and HP, are trying to move the goalposts, yet again!

MS's Palladium project, set out to re-define PC architecture.

Now, the above consortium are ALL attempting to impose a completely new architecture and therefore OS on the World.

Fortunately, the Open Source Movement grows day by day.

My software company's own strategy (as previously stated) is to use Open Source product to the maximum.

With certain caveats, in the same way that I do not expect to have to buy a lawnmower and buy a licence to use it each Spring (!) I don't expect my user-base to have to pay for the same item, many times over!

I expect to provide them the honest option to UpGrade, at a reasonable cost, if and when I have something far better to sell them!

Obviously, some software products (including ours) can only be used for a limited time period ( e.g. taxation software, as the rules change each year).

Linux offers a highly stable OS, with constant improvements from a global knowledge-base of very experienced techies: additionally, it has yet to suffer the sort of virus attack experienced day after day with MS OS!

Sun Microsystems have just released their Madhatter project.

A Linux based desktop and OS, plus an Open Source mail client and browser. Add Star Office 6.00 and you have a highly stable, very cheap and effective PC!

What Governments and economics commentators seem to miss, is that with the now, all pervasive nature of ICT, companies like MS hold a huge strategic asset, which is like a loaded gun to the World!

Since MS refuse to release Source Code (even with redudant systems!), many states are now refusing to use MS products, on the basis that it could prove impossible for citizens to access data about themselves, in the future, where the Source Code remains secret. This strategy, is bound to add huge momentum to the Open Source movement and I support it totally.

Paq


----------



## Eccentric (May 22, 2003)

Breaking news ..... which may or may not back up some of the posts here ... however the case is still 'sub judice', so perhaps no-one should jump to unwarranted conclusions. You're quite at liberty to jump to warranted ones though .... 

"Microsoft is being sued by a company for allegedly stealing a media transmission technology and using it in Media Player 9

Microsoft was ordered by a Californian judge last week to produce thousands of emails as part of an investigation into whether the software giant stole intellectual property from a small company called Burst.com and used it in Media Player 9.

.....................

As part of the investigation phase of the case, Microsoft produced email communications relating to its dealings with Burst.com, but it admitted that a large number of emails were missing because they had been deleted, along with backup copies.

.......................

Microsoft was unavailable to comment on this story."

By Munir Kotadia, ZDNet UK



*Additional extract from ZDNET 11.45pm 4th Sept 03 *

_Last week, Microsoft was asked to produce thousands of emails as part of an investigation into whether the company stole intellectual property from Burst.com and used it in Media Player 9. Richard Lang, chief executive of Burst.com explained his side of the story to ZDNet UK_

Below are some extracts from his interview with ZDNET.

At that point, we realised that we had been had, but we were able to find a couple of very good law firms that were willing to represent us on a contingency basis. So we filed a suit against Microsoft to try and resolve it.

They have our technology, there is no doubt about that, and we see that as a great validation of our technology, but we haven't been paid yet, so the lawsuit is an attempt to be paid.

*Q: Were you concerned from the outset that this kind of might happen? *

We were aware of Microsoft's reputation, but we had no choice but to work with them. Microsoft had -- and still does have -- a monopoly over the PC desktop. They also have strong influence in other areas, so there was no way we could be in our business and not deal with Microsoft.


----------



## GoneForNow (Jul 22, 2001)

Gentlemen (termed used in its most broadest meaning  )

Lets assume that Microsoft is a monopoly (it hasn't been found to be one but we'll assume so), how does that fact justify the stealing of operating software? Aren't the laws available both in the US and Europe the proper method by which to break the monopoly or are you advocating that two wrongs (monopoly and theft) make a right? In other words, how does their illegal behavior justify yours?

As I recall, Ford made the Model T, clearly an outdated automobile. However, I don't recall Ford allowing anyone to steal its designs for the car just because of its age.


----------



## Eccentric (May 22, 2003)

Sir (term used in its broadest sense)

I do not normally advocate illegal actions, nor would I claim that two wrongs make a right.

However, when those responsible for maintaining my rights as an individual, abrogate their responsibilites, and I am left prey to major corporations to take actions which are not in my best interests, and which are sometimes blatantly contrary to the prevailing law, then what should I do? I do not have the funds to take them on personally, and it is pretty clear that vested interests at high levels within governments have too much to lose by 'upsetting' these heavy guns. These corporations, - and I include major drug companies, supermarket chains, the food industry generally, the chemical industries, etc. are all taking us to the cleaners in various ways, frequently with heavy backing and collusion from 'scared' governments.

So, should we just say, 'Ah well, that's the law ...' and meekly roll over on our backs ...?

I think it is about time a few more people started saying 'This is no longer reasonable ...' and taking whatever action we can ... and that is pretty little. In fact, in some cases, I think we have a duty, if we consider ourselves to be responsible citizens, to try and leave a better world for our children/grandchildren. If those who have the power to do something about it don't - or won't - then I think we must do what we can as individuals and if the only way we can effect change is to undermine a rotten system, then sobeit.

as English philosopher Edmund Burke said, "The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing."


----------



## GoneForNow (Jul 22, 2001)

> _Originally posted by Eccentric:_
> *Sir (term used in its broadest sense)
> 
> I do not normally advocate illegal actions, nor would I claim that two wrongs make a right.
> ...


But you do advocate that two wrongs make a right. You propose anarchy and vigilantism as a cure for what you believe to be collusion between governments and corporations. Simply, you believe that you are justified in ignoring the law.


----------



## Eccentric (May 22, 2003)

On the contrary. It is your definition that taking the action I propose is 'wrong'. I maintain that where the first wrong is an abrogation of the application of the existing laws then it is right to oppose it. In effect, those that have set the scene as anarchistic are those elements within our society who behave as anarchists, not me. I am only repsonding to the anarchic situation which already exists, created by those who set themselves up to protect me from this sort of behaviour, and who collude rather than exercise their responsibilities.

Therefore we have a wrong and a right equalling a right.

The only reason you say that the second action is a wrong, is that you buy in to this corrupt system, or perhaps have some vested interest yourself ... ?


----------



## GoneForNow (Jul 22, 2001)

> _Originally posted by Eccentric:_
> *On the contrary. It is your definition that taking the action I propose is 'wrong'. I maintain that where the first wrong is an abrogation of the application of the existing laws then it is riight to oppose it. In effect, those that have set the scene as anarchistic are those elements within our society who behave as anarchists, not me. I am only repsonding to the anarchic situation which already exists, created by those who set themselves up to protect me from this sort of behaviour, and who collude rather than eercise their responsibilities.
> 
> Therefore we have a wrong and a right equalling a right.
> ...


Your correct but very few people buy your proposition that the system is corrupt. However, assuming that it is then what you have is also at risk. Sorry but the rule of law shall apply and protect us from those individuals who sua sponte determine that the system is corrupt so they can steal at their leisure.
As far as vested interest, claiming the system is corrupt to justify theft seems to me to be a bit of self interest.


----------



## Eccentric (May 22, 2003)

> Your correct but very few people buy your proposition that the system is corrupt.


 You must have a very limited circle of people to talk to. Most people I speak to totally accept this premise! And this is also borne out by the voting on this topic, where only 21% of people voting advocate never using pirated software. Do we live in a lawless society where 80% of people regularly break the law mindlessly, or does this high figure of people who pirate software tend to back up the fact that a majority of people believe, as I do, that this unacceptable situation should be tackled by taking the only viable action open to them and undermining the basis for it? 



> Sorry but the rule of law shall apply and protect us from those individuals who sua sponte determine that the system is corrupt so they can steal at their leisure.


 This statement is based on a false premise. If the rule of law WAS applied to protect us from those individuals, this thread would never have been started in the first place. 



> claiming the system is corrupt to justify theft seems to me to be a bit of self interest


 I don't think we are ever going to agree on this topic, as I would word this statement as _Protest at this situation by undermining the basis for it_ Rigid adherence to the law most often benefits those who stand to gain in some way. It may be that it is just a rigid rule of the individual 'I always stick to the law - breaking the law is morally indefensible under any circumstances.' This can lead to a mindless approach, which is highly dangerous. Were the atrocities committed under the protection of the law against slaves morally defensible 'because it was within the law'? I don't think so. And yet I rarely advocate breaking the law myself. I personally will always try to operate within the law, even to the extent of not speeding, and here I am obviously in a minority of a few per cent, as I see others go piling by me. However, if I hit and killed a kid whilst speeding, I would not be able to live with myself. Others seem to be happy to take that risk. Under these circumstances, which constitutes the greater evil, speeding or pirating? With your stance re. the law, how do you stand on speeding? Or are you one of the people who figure that that particular law is OK to break, and therefore belong to the majority group on that issue? How would you feel, if by breaking that particular law, a child died unecessarily, (and research shows that the odds of a child dieing, who may have survived if the speed limit had been observed, increase hugely just by a 10mph increase in speed)?

Given our obviously opposite points of view, I don't think we are going to get to a point of agreement by continuing this rally, were we to continue ad nauseam, and will therefore acknowledge your democratic right to your opinion whilst reserving my right to disagree. However, the clear evidence of the voting on this forum is that I share views with a group which is approximately 4 times the size of the group that adheres to your views.


----------



## akita (Jul 17, 2003)

if you were to have three computers in your home, then you can get a multiple liscence for a fraction of the cost of three originals..... besides there are ways around the problem of activation with xp, working for the company you know learn these methods (which i am not going to divulge) !!!


----------



## GoneForNow (Jul 22, 2001)

> _Originally posted by Eccentric:_
> * However, the clear evidence of the voting on this forum is that I share views with a group which is approximately 4 times the size of the group that adheres to your views.  *


Ah yes the "if everyone is doing it, it must be okay" argument. You're not serious that the few who have responded here constitute the opinion of TSG or the world for that matter are you? Or it could be the people who consider theft theft don't feel the need to argue the obvious. You can justify theft any way you want from the "it really doesn't cost them anything" to the "I'm just testing it" to "the whole system is corrupt so I'm exercising my God given right to protest by not paying for this software". Its still theft any way you want to present it, slice it or justify it. You are correct that we are never going to agree, however, should you get (hope it never happens) locked up or sued feel free to give me a call. We can argue to the judge about how corrupt the system is.


----------



## Eccentric (May 22, 2003)

> Your correct but very few people buy your proposition that the system is corrupt.


 *



Ah yes the "if everyone is doing it, it must be okay" argument. You're not serious that the few who have responded here constitute the opinion of TSG or the world for that matter are you?

Click to expand...

*I wasn't using this to justify my argument. I was just pointing out the discrepancy between your statement and the vote.

I accept that this is not a representative sample, however, even you must admit that there has to be a helluva swing for the balance to end up backing your above statement.

Thanks for your offer of support should I end up in jail, but as I currently run no pirated software at all, there is little chance of that. That doesn't mean that it will always be that way .... and I may be happy to benefit from your obvious 'semi-legal' skills in argument!


----------



## Guest (Nov 5, 2003)

instead of spending hundreds of dollars on these programs you can get a pirated version but u wont be able to do certain things without a cdkey which is ok......


----------



## redalert95 (Oct 19, 2003)

I stick to demos and the $10 dollar games at wal-mart, unless im on a splurge. 

But I am a student and have seen the program inspiration for outlining stuff, its a great program but costs around $50 there is a 30 day demo, but you can only download it once. Personally i dont have $50 to spend on a program so im stuck using my Office 97 software. I would love to have, but dont have the money, and i dont use pirate software. is there another similair cheaper program?


----------



## RSM123 (Aug 1, 2002)

http://www.software602.com/products/pcs/

http://www.openoffice.org/dev_docs/instructions.html


----------



## redalert95 (Oct 19, 2003)

hey thanks


----------

