# Circletop Window Molding



## JohnWill (Oct 19, 2002)

I'm doing a home improvement project and I've come across a stumbling block. I seem to be unable to find interior wood molding for a circletop window.

I have a window that's around 27" wide, and it has three pieces of trim that make a half circle, I want to replace those along with the rest of the trim. The trim is 2 1/4" wide, and as I say, three pieces make a semi-circle of 27" in diameter.

If I can't find it, I'll have to strip the old ones, fill any holes, and use them again. Obviously, I'd rather just start with new trim.


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## Guyzer (Jul 3, 2004)

John if they are made of wood you will have a tough time finding replacements. I worked in the " specialty " dept of a window joint and they made our curved pieces from scratch. It is something you can do if you have a way to steam the wood cuz that's what it takes to be able to bend it with it breaking.


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## JohnWill (Oct 19, 2002)

Well, these are flat moldings like you'd see on the side of a standard window. so steaming them and bending them is pretty much out of the question in that axis!  They have to be made custom or found somewhere...


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## buck52 (Mar 9, 2001)

probably cut out of 1x12 pine or poplar and finger jointed hence the three pieces... unless you have access to a piece of 1x 30 or so... 

do you know the window manufacturer?

you could always do it in one piece with mdo plywood and edge band it


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## JohnWill (Oct 19, 2002)

Actually, it's made of a single piece of pine, apparently a production line job cranking them out with a specific radius. I have three different sizes of circle-top windows here, all have similar molding, but obviously unique to the size of the window.

I have a couple of router, but nothing that will do that!


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## buck52 (Mar 9, 2001)

very unusual if they were one piece but...

unless you know who made the originals the chances of finding them are pretty slim

you could probably find a custom millwork shop in your area that would make them but ... quite expensive


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## xgerryx (May 16, 2003)

Can you upload a photo of what you have. Its surprising what can be done with a router


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## JohnWill (Oct 19, 2002)

I've actually thought about trying to make one on my router table. I can certainly cut the pine board in the proper shape, then I could route the various contours to match what is required. That would be a fair amount of work to make them, but as a last resort...  Here's a shot of the whole piece, and a detail shot of what it looks like up close.


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## xgerryx (May 16, 2003)

JohnWill said:


> That would be a fair amount of work to make them, but as a last resort...


Shout me an airfare and I'll come over and do them for you.   

Yes its a lot of work and usually not economic.

I've built a few of these quite a few years ago shortly after finishing my apprenticeship as a cabinetmaker.
If it was a simple profile and a "one off" I'd make up a radial jig to hold the router and then do multiple cuts changing the cutter as necessary . Quite a lot of time and hand finishing required.

For a profile like yours I would get a pair of knives made for my spindle moulder then build a circular jig to rotate the quarter sections past the cutter head semi free hand. Again a lot of work but once I had the knives and a customer willing to pay the result was very exact.


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## Knotbored (Jun 5, 2004)

What is the thickness? perhaps a double thickness of 1" lumber?
I have seen tops for grandfather clocks made similar-
on those the 3 layers were cut on a bandsaw in 3 different radiuse pieces, routered with OG bits, then gued in layers offsetting each layer.
Your pictures show unusual shapes for routering-can we see a shot directly at the end with a coin or something in the picture for size reference?


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## buck52 (Mar 9, 2001)

as I thought... it is made in multiple segments and anything but flat as you orginally posted... that has quite a profile

as Gerry eluded to... that is done with a moulding plane setup special to do radius profiling

I have done many one off similar to that but to duplicate that exact profile would be a ton of work without the proper equipment


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## JohnWill (Oct 19, 2002)

I have a general idea how I'd attack it, but I'd have to buy at least one special router bit, and I've truthfully never seen one that would really to the trick. The curved indentation the second from the outside would be the tricky part. I also agree that it would be a lot of work, and I think I'll go the route of stripping the old ones, filling the holes, and then refinishing them. I still haven't found where I can buy the replacements, still waiting for the window manufacturing company to call me back. I've been told by several lumber yards that the best way to get them is to from the window maker, since they normally come as part of the installation kit.

The total molding is 1/2", the same as standard straight window molding, and they're 2.25" wide.


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## buck52 (Mar 9, 2001)

This the bit you need for your router table ... http://www.amazon.com/Freud-99-466-Matches-Industry-Standard/dp/B000P15E0K

then you would need to build a curved carriage/jig to hold the stock as you pass it through

ps... I believe standard window casing is 11/16 thick


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## JohnWill (Oct 19, 2002)

I believe you're right, I didn't go back to measure it, it's indeed 11/16" thick. 

That is the bit, of course, I'd also have to buy a new router with a 1/2" chuck! 

Like I said, I think I'll reuse the old ones.


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## hewee (Oct 26, 2001)

Let me guess you want it stained so can't use the one you have now that could be patched and painted. 

But if this is a home that the trim on the windows came with call the home builder and find out who they got there trim from. If you lucky it is in town but it could come from any where. But if the builder is still putting trim like that in the homes you may be able to get them to order the trim for you too.


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## JohnWill (Oct 19, 2002)

This is a custom home, and I'm already trying to get the trim from the manufacturer of the Windows, which is where the builder got it. However, I haven't managed to get them to actually admit that it's available. 

You're right, as you can see, it's stained trim. I'm taking a run at stripping it, patching it with stainable filler, and refinishing it. Seems a lot easier than rolling my own, even though that would be an interesting exercise.


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## buck52 (Mar 9, 2001)

The little I know you I think you would greatly enjoy the challenge but... as you can also tell it is a ton of work/time to do correctly

have fun


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## JohnWill (Oct 19, 2002)

I have been building straight moldings of pretty complicated shapes to repair some water damaged window frames, but I haven't taken a run at a curved piece yet. All of my work is normally straight pieces. Curves would introduce a whole new set of challenges. 

I guess you'd probably pivot the wood through the router table to trim the edge even, but it's not clear to me how you'd use the *Freud Door and Window Casing Bit* with the table, mine wouldn't do that. Are you thinking you'd suspend the piece vertically over the table on the pivot to route the profile? I guess that would work, but I'd have more time in fixtures than molding! 

As I said, I'd also have to find one in 1/4" shank or invest in a different router. With all the 1/4" bits I have, I hate to think about starting over with 1/2" bits!


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## xgerryx (May 16, 2003)

JohnWill said:


> Are you thinking you'd suspend the piece vertically over the table on the pivot to route the profile? I guess that would work, but I'd have more time in fixtures than molding!


That is how its done but the above mentioned bit would need the shank on the other end to do it this way. (see attached images)

With a cut of your profile you would be better off using a spindle moulder (moulding plane or shaper, depending what language used) rather than a router. The moulder has a much higher tip speed which gives a much cleaner cut. It gets quite involved even to the point of selecting timber with the short grain going the right way.

I agree, cleaning up what you have is going to be the most practical approach.

PS: The spindle moulder has always been the favorite of all my woodwork machinery. I built my own one in 1978 and still really enjoy using it now. Theres something really magic watching the shavings flying off and seeing the result feeding out past the cutterhead.


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## hewee (Oct 26, 2001)

Well I bet they never used a router to make that trim but had a big table shaper like this or bigger http://www.toolsofthetrade.net/industry-news.asp?sectionID=1493&articleID=501342 and I bit you don't have one. I can see it taking a lot of time to make and even more doing it over and over if you don't get it right the first time.

Also if your calling the builder it may be better to go to one of there job sites and talk to the super or other workers there that could tell you where it comes from then the office that may not like giving out info.

Then any patching and stain you do if you use the same wood test it out on the back side first.


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## buck52 (Mar 9, 2001)

I agree with Gerry... I grabed that link quick to show that the profile was a stock one that should be still available

this is a much better job for a shaper or moulder

I have never tried a spindle moulder but have medium sized spindle shaper with a cutter head that excepts both stock and custom knifes... it works great


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## Guyzer (Jul 3, 2004)

I work on a professional grade moulder all day long. That's what I do for a living. The cutter heads are about 6" - 8" in diameter and cost close to $700.00 each. That doesn't include the blades which number between 2 - 4 depending on the shape I'm doing. The blades average about $40.00 each ( the intricate ones are around $80.00 ) and last me a week before I have to send them out. The piece in question would be done laying flat, not standing up. Because the piece is curved it would be very difficult to hold it upright against the fence and feed it by hand. I'll take my camera to work today and fire off a few shots depending which profiles I end up doing today.


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## Guyzer (Jul 3, 2004)

This is a combination of two heads opposed to each other. I use 'em to shape both sides of the piece at the same time.










This is the feeder I use with the fence attached to the machine. I can and have fed stock through this by hand and it's hard... on the fingers when you slip. The cutters in the first shot is what ate the tip of my finger. ( yes the fence was attached ) 
It is also difficult to hold the piece by hand. Consider if you will... it's spinning at 8900 RPM and chewing the wood like it was paper.










When I do curved stuff I place this bearing on the shaft and set the cutter on top of it with the blades facing down. The bearing allows the wood to rest against it thus setting the distance from the edge to the finished profile. To set the depth you raise / lower the shaft.










On top of the bearing I place a cutter, some spacers and cap it with a nut that I torque down. I have many and just used this as an example which happens to be 6".










Then I place this guard above it and bolt it in place. It won't stop a finger from going it but at least you get to keep most of the hand.  I say that because as mentioned before I shape all of our curved stuff by hand. It takes a lot of down pressure from me as well as I have to use my body where able to stop the piece from kicking.










I thought about holding John's moulding upright, by hand, and as experienced as I am I doubt you could pay me enough to push a curved piece through. I just can't see how you could push against a fence tight enough and feed it through without it kicking out or upwards and without it exploding in some fashion. ( yes it happens quite often )


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## JohnWill (Oct 19, 2002)

Just for laughs, I cut a circular piece of pine and pivoted it through the router table to trim the edge perfectly smooth and to the correct radius. That worked well, but the next step would be far more difficult. I'd also have to figure out how to do the inside curve, not to mention having the proper equipment to actually do the real surface of the piece.

I'm stripping the old wood and patching/staining it, clearly this would be far to complicated for me to tackle with my equipment. I doubt that one set of Window trim is justification for $1000 (probably more) for additional equipment. 

Great pictures BTW, it was educational, just not practical for me.


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## Guyzer (Jul 3, 2004)

JohnWill said:


> JI'd also have to figure out how to do the inside curve


Even with my equipment it's difficult enough to do a large sweeping inside radius never mind a shorter one like you are faced with.

The only way I would tackle something like that would be to have a bit that would do the entire thing from the outside inward in one pass unless I had a machine where the tool was sticking upwards from the middle of the table. That way at least you could do your pass from the inside and nothing would be in it's way.

I wish you well on your decision to repair said piece. Then again, if you spent the dough for new equipment at least it would last you the rest of your life. Not to mention all the fun you could have making other rare and hard to find stuff for friends, family and miscellaneous malcontents.


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## JohnWill (Oct 19, 2002)

I'm guessing that my investment in specialized routing equipment of that magnitude would never pay off. I think I'll invest my tool budget in things like a better bandsaw, perhaps a surface plainer, etc. Those are tools that I can use a lot more often. 

I actually thought of a way to trim the inside of the piece similar to the way I did the outside. I'd just have to mount the piece on the pivot arm under it and pivot it just like the other pass to cut the inside. I can remove the fence from my router table and have the cutter sticking up through the center just as you describe. However, I still can't get by the problem of actually cutting the complex curves of the actual surface on a curved piece, and I suspect trying to swing that by the cutters would be a real exercise in futility! 

It's been an interesting intellectual exercise, but way too difficult for the task at hand. The stripping and refinishing seems to be sufficient, though not perfect. In truth, from the distance from the trim to anyone looking at it, the flaws will probably be almost invisible. I know that I'm going to do my best to not notice them.


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## xgerryx (May 16, 2003)

Guyzer said:


> I thought about holding John's moulding upright, by hand, and as experienced as I am I doubt you could pay me enough to push a curved piece through. I just can't see how you could push against a fence tight enough and feed it through without it kicking out or upwards and without it exploding in some fashion. ( yes it happens quite often )


Hi Guyzer
The trick is to make a vertical jig as mentioned earlier to swing the piece to be machined past the cutter head. If you would like some more details get back to us and I'll start another thread with better sketch's and give it a go to explain and show how its done. 
It makes a fun project for anyone with a spindle moulder or for doing smaller pieces with a table router.


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## buck52 (Mar 9, 2001)

cutting the flat piece to the correct curve/radius is very easy...

make a pattern from plywood and clamp it to a piece of stock cut close to the size... then with a pattern bit trim it ...

making the profile is another story as everyone has said

ship a sample to Guy and have him whip out a couple of miles of it for you...


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## Guyzer (Jul 3, 2004)

buck52 said:


> ship a sample to Guy and have him whip out a couple of miles of it for you...


I have just shown you my machine which I use to make smaller stuff on. If you want a few miles we gotta use the big gun. It's about 12' long and will fire the stuff out like spaghetti .
The finished product is unlike spaghetti though. We use it to make the real fancy noodles.


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## JohnWill (Oct 19, 2002)

buck52 said:


> cutting the flat piece to the correct curve/radius is very easy...
> 
> make a pattern from plywood and clamp it to a piece of stock cut close to the size... then with a pattern bit trim it ...
> 
> ...


That's what I tried to describe, that part I can do, it's the pattern on the curve that's more difficult!


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## xgerryx (May 16, 2003)

If anyone is interested in a new thread (re; #27) to do a radial face cut either with a spindle moulder or for smaller jobs using a table router sing out. 

Woodwork, even after 35+ years is still a hell of a lot of fun.


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## JohnWill (Oct 19, 2002)

Nothing stopping you from starting a new thread if you have something to discuss. I'm not in the league with many folks here in woodworking, but I'm always interested.


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## PCcruncher (Oct 24, 2007)

xgerryx said:


> If anyone is interested in a new thread (re; #27) to do a radial face cut either with a spindle moulder or for smaller jobs using a table router sing out.
> 
> Woodwork, even after 35+ years is still a hell of a lot of fun.


It is fun!
Sure Gerry, if you have time 

Guyzer, I enjoyed the shots of the spindle shaper! I love wood working, and had the experience of working in a small cabinet shop for a couple of months. I learned a lot, and enjoyed learning how to use the tools I hadn't had access to before (Spindle shaper and the 3 spindle shaper we used for door rails & stiles.) 
Last winter we added on to our house a large addition which includes a 20' x 27' shop for wood working  It isn't fully finished, so we haven't moved any tools in yet, But hopefully this winter we can get it going.


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## Knotbored (Jun 5, 2004)

II would like to see how using tool of all types ('specially the ones I can't afford in a home shop) work.
Before electrical tools were available furnature makers made amazing molded edhes using rabit planes- a blade set in a simple wood holding fixture. I can almost visualize how a single blade secured to a sturdy compas could be used to make the circular window moulding by gradually scraping away the surface.


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## buck52 (Mar 9, 2001)

I think it would be great to have a woodworking thread to show your work and share ideas

I am an avivd woodworker/turner that has built and sold many pieces as well asall my own cabinets and furniture


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## iltos (Jun 13, 2004)

JohnWill said:


> Like I said, I think I'll reuse the old ones.


that'd be the way to go, john :up:

if that pic is representative, they're in good shape...not worth the time or the money to try and duplicate them

if you're changing the profile throughout the room, there a lots of alternative available, tho....much of it depends on how much of purist you are....the easiest to deal with are synthetic


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## JohnWill (Oct 19, 2002)

I just had one window where the trim basically sucked. It was all different shades, and the upper and lower trim didn't meet cleanly. The cross piece was also pretty ugly and plain. I wish I'd have taken a "before" picture. 

I added the medallions, and the cross piece, and replaced everything but the circular trim.


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## Guyzer (Jul 3, 2004)

Darn nice job John. Except for that one finishing nail head sticking out. Just kidding...


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## JohnWill (Oct 19, 2002)

Thanks. 

Well, it looks a whole lot better than what was there. My wife has been after me for several years to upgrade it. I finally decided it was time to get it done.

I would have liked to replace the other trim, but it wasn't going to happen. It's not quite the same shade as the rest when the smoke settled, but it's close enough. Of course it's pretty hard to get a bunch of different pieces of wood to take the stain all the same, even if they're all new.


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## iltos (Jun 13, 2004)

JohnWill said:


> Thanks.
> 
> Well, it looks a whole lot better than what was there. My wife has been after me for several years to upgrade it. I finally decided it was time to get it done.
> 
> I would have liked to replace the other trim, but it wasn't going to happen. It's not quite the same shade as the rest when the smoke settled, but it's close enough. Of course it's pretty hard to get a bunch of different pieces of wood to take the stain all the same, even if they're all new.


you'll be the only one who notices, john, unless someone climbs up on that counter and spends the time it took you to do it, just staring at it ....

it looks great :up:


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## hewee (Oct 26, 2001)

Sanding sealer helps out too.

Applying a Sanding Sealer Tutorial


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## JohnWill (Oct 19, 2002)

I use Minwax products, and I used the pre-stain prep as they recommend. Once the stain is on, the clear varnish doesn't really change the color after that.


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## hewee (Oct 26, 2001)

Good to hear John. 

I think oil base products are also better. Even more so if your working where it's hot because you have so much more drying time.
I did a desk for my mom but it was all water base stain and varnish and I hated it. The stain was not to bad but the varnish dried to fast. Yes it was hot but still it dried way to fast and you had brush marks. If I did it with a oil base I would had a glass finish with no brush marks. 
Plus if you go gloss the finish is harder with the oil base. If you do not like the gloss then put it on and steel wool it to give it a semi-gloss look and then add a semi-gloss or what ever on top of that. 
Your have the good hard finish on it under it to help protect things.


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## JohnWill (Oct 19, 2002)

Actually, it just takes a few hours for the stain to be ready, I normally give it overnight. I normally do trim like this with the satin finish, I don't like a hi-gloss finish on this stuff. For stain and clear finishes, I always use oil based products.

I put the prestain treatment, the stain and the first coats of finish on with disposable sponge brushes, makes the cleanup very easy. For the final finish coat, I break down and use a real brush to get the good finish.


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## hewee (Oct 26, 2001)

I know hi-gloss is to much but it is a harder finish. You can then steel wool it to take down the hi-gloss finish look and add another coat of satin finish. The satin finish is not as hard but you got the hard hi-gloss under it. 
But where you got the trim it is not like a door way that your run into and hit so no big deal on getting a hard finish. 

I have used the disposable sponge brushes but also love a rag where you can rub the stain in. I have even used steel wool to rub in stain. Well a stain with a finish all together in one that can be hand rub you can get a nice shine on it with the steel wool.


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## JohnWill (Oct 19, 2002)

Like you say, I don't have an issue with how hard the finish is where the trim is located. 

I also use a rag to rub the stain after applying it with the sponge brushes. I let is sit for 10-15 minutes and then work it over with the rag to even it out and remove the excess. I've tried the one step stain/finish stuff, but I'm not impressed with the job it does over the separate staining and finishing steps.


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## hewee (Oct 26, 2001)

I like WATCO DANISH OIL. Guess because we used it so many time at work but you got a all in one finish you can put on and doing many coats you can get a very nice finish.

Read this Cabinets, Furniture, Woodworks: Watco Danish Oil, Watco Danish Oil

It may help you match up the stains on each piece of wood better.
Takes a little testing but it could work.


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## JohnWill (Oct 19, 2002)

Well, that looks like WAY too much work for window trim! 

Now, if I'm finishing fine furniture... maybe.


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## hewee (Oct 26, 2001)

Yea it does take a lot of work but it is what may be best trying to match up woods. 
Even more so I bet if you had to replace part of trim in a older house where the wood is not even the same. Well same wood but if you look at really old oak and they way they cut it your have a very hard time even finding the same looking grain now days and then staining it even if you do get it to match and its the same wood your still have another type of grain it it because of the way newer trees grow and are cut. 
Where I moved from they had this old barn. Had a work shop that on the wall had this stick. I think it was a vine from the way it looked from a brush out from. But they had it there I think to shape it. It was a cane. Had really fine like bark on it and the wood was really hard. I took it and with a putty knife got all the bark off of it. Only sanded it some because it really did not need to be sanded and the wood being so hard and smooth it did not need it. I took a rag and steel wool and put on 6 or 7 coats of WATCO DANISH OIL and it really turned out nice. 
Only bad thing about it even with the nice handle on the cane was the other end was where the knock was. You could not use the cane on any hard floor without adding a rubber cane end to it and that made it look bad. So I got a nice cane that looks great but not something you can use unless you want to take it out and the woods to walk around with as a walk stick.


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