# Why Apple is at the mercy of Windows



## Anastasia15 (Feb 21, 2007)

I have personally looked in to this matter as I'm strongly considering leaving Windows/MS due to their over priced software, unreliable OS and being at the mercy of Mr. gates. In my view, I feel people want to leave Windows but fear that they won't find the software they need to do their work, play games, music etc...

The other reason is that most companies and the rest of the world uses Microsoft Technology. So if you don't know how to work in Window's you will have a tough time at most jobs that require a working knowledge of MsOffice etc..

Lastly, I think people are scared to change, try something new, something that we have grown comfortable with and will feel in the minority should we decide to change.

Let's remember that Macs are NOT cheap. They are very expensive when compared to Windows/PC's. However, if you analyze the "whole situation" which does take quite a bit of time and a knowledge of what to look for, you will see that MACS are a better long-term investment and should I say short-term as well.

My thoughts...I share some of the fears that people are experiencing when deciding to leave Windows once and for all. If Apple was to bring their computers down to $800 I guarantee you Microsoft would eventually go out of business. Surprising that Apple hasn't brought down the price of Mac's to attract more people. Perhaps prices will drop as I believe that's the core issue along with personal fear that's preventing people to migrate to Mac's. Anyone else feel the same way?

Oh and for the record.....Why do people say Macs or PC's???? That makes no sense whatsoever. They are both personal computers (hello)


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## serophi2513 (Mar 10, 2006)

MAC users like to be seperated from that underpowered under secure system developed by Microsoft. A MAC is a rue computer a pc is a repair project! HUGE DIFFERENCE


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## Anastasia15 (Feb 21, 2007)

They are seperated but the seperation is based on technology and performance. I think they're both PC's only Mac's are better, in my eyes at least. 
What's a "rue computer"?


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## MSM Hobbes (Apr 23, 2004)

Anastasia15 said:


> I have personally looked in to this matter as I'm strongly considering leaving Windows/MS due to their over priced software, unreliable OS and being at the mercy of Mr. gates. In my view, I feel people want to leave Windows but fear that they won't find the software they need to do their work, play games, music etc...


Fear is the mind protecting the self from the unknown. Once a person experiences something that they once feared, and has desire and interest to learn more about that subject, then they can travel w/o that fear. [ok, knew I should have not had that extra glass of mead... sorry...  ]

However, many ppl are also very comfortable and happy w/ the path they have taken because it suits them and works for them.

As has been stated numerous other multiple times here and elsewhere, Mac's can and do play many same titled or comparable titles on the OS X system, or durn near whatever ya want w/ MS Windows via Parallels/BC.



> The other reason is that most companies and the rest of the world uses Microsoft Technology. So if you don't know how to work in Window's you will have a tough time at most jobs that require a working knowledge of MsOffice etc..


There is a MS Office version specifically for Mac's. Many reviews claim its even more stable/better than the MS Windows version. I have it on both of my Apples. It works great.

The biggest issue here, IMHO, is that many of the IT ppl are ignorant about what an Apple can do, or have their ways about them where the coding via Windows is what they love.



> Lastly, I think people are scared to change, try something new, something that we have grown comfortable with and will feel in the minority should we decide to change.


See above fear rambles... 



> Let's remember that Macs are NOT cheap. They are very expensive when compared to Windows/PC's. However, if you analyze the "whole situation" which does take quite a bit of time and a knowledge of what to look for, you will see that MACS are a better long-term investment and should I say short-term as well.


There's more?!?!  I thought the previous paragraph you said "lastly"?!?!?  

APPLES ARE NOT VERY EXPENSIVE WHEN COMPARED TO WINDOW'S/PC'S!!! Grrrrr... 



> My thoughts...I share some of the fears that people are experiencing when deciding to leave Windows once and for all. If Apple was to bring their computers down to $800 I guarantee you Microsoft would eventually go out of business. Surprising that Apple hasn't brought down the price of Mac's to attract more people. Perhaps prices will drop as I believe that's the core issue along with personal fear that's preventing people to migrate to Mac's. Anyone else feel the same way?


Ummm,,, there is the mac mini - which for many ppl is quite powerful enough, and has a price point of... $600 to $800, new. Little iMac, which comes of course w/ its own monitor,,, $1000. Refurbs of these are of course less. 

Oh,,, guess its surprising that Honda or Toyota hasn't brought the price down of their minivans to then compete w/ the Dodge or Chevy's?  



> Oh and for the record.....Why do people say Macs or PC's???? That makes no sense whatsoever. They are both personal computers (hello)


Humans many times make no sense, whatsoever. 

However, although both are computers for persons, since IBM marketed a computer named the "IBM Personal Computer" [January 1981], which of course had MS s/w [DOS], I believe that the PC nomenclature evidently went w/ that route. And then the Apple Macintosh, well, although early on more so than now was touted as a personal computer, has become the 'think different' machine.


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## dadsgravy (Feb 20, 2007)

Personally I don't find macs to be that much more expensive. A mackbook or a macbook pro, compared to dell, sony, maybe hp, with the same specs, will usually be cheaper. Or not to much more. Desk tops I'm not so sure about but they still aren't that much more for what you get. You're not just paying for a computer but also for the best and most powerful OS in the world. Apple software on Apple hardware can't be beat. There is nothing anyone can say to disprove that. But I could just be brainwashed and biased. It sure sounds like it! 

And I think people say macs and pc's because macs and windows sounds funny. Windows is just a program and macs are an all in one. So you need some hardware to blame it on. And Pc has become synonymous with windows.


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## VegasACF (May 27, 2005)

You're new to this whole Mac thing, so I'll go easy on you. This time. 



Anastasia15 said:


> I have personally looked in to this matter as I'm strongly considering leaving Windows/MS due to their over priced software, unreliable OS and being at the mercy of Mr. gates. In my view, I feel people want to leave Windows but fear that they won't find the software they need to do their work, play games, music etc...


That is merely ignorance rearing its ugly head. Don't misunderstand. I'm not saying _you're_ ignorant. I'm saying the populous is. As I mentioned in another (strikingly similar) thread, my MacBook Pro runs Windows _very_ well (better than any other computer in my office, for example). _And_ it runs the MacOS. That's two computers for the price of one. Fortunately, ignorance is a curable condition. I don't hold out much hope for the vast majority of computer users, though.



Anastasia15 said:


> The other reason is that most companies and the rest of the world uses Microsoft Technology. So if you don't know how to work in Window's you will have a tough time at most jobs that require a working knowledge of MsOffice etc..


I have no problem operating in both worlds, and switch betwixt the two with ease. I am uncertain why others find it so perplexing. There is more in common between the two than different.



Anastasia15 said:


> Lastly, I think people are scared to change, try something new, something that we have grown comfortable with and will feel in the minority should we decide to change.


No, people don't want to have to work for something that may be better. And there's a difference. If people had the same mentality in the 1770s that people have today the U.S.A. would still be part of England.



Anastasia15 said:


> Let's remember that Macs are NOT cheap.


Nor are they inexpensive.



Anastasia15 said:


> They are very expensive when compared to Windows/PC's.


Not if you compare two similarly-equipped machines. If you want to compare an off-the-shelf Compaq with an off-the-shelf Mac you're not making a fair comparison.



Anastasia15 said:


> However, if you analyze the "whole situation" which does take quite a bit of time and a knowledge of what to look for, you will see that MACS are a better long-term investment and should I say short-term as well.


If you look at the software that comes with _every_ Mac right out of the box you'll find that there is more bang for the buck with _any_ Mac.



Anastasia15 said:


> My thoughts...I share some of the fears that people are experiencing when deciding to leave Windows once and for all.


There is no reason for anyone to do that. Every Mac made today is capable of running Windows XP natively.



Anastasia15 said:


> If Apple was to bring their computers down to $800 I guarantee you Microsoft would eventually go out of business.


Apple introduced the Mac mini in January of 2005. It sold for $499. The mini continues, has only gotten more powerful, and yet Microsoft still exists.



Anastasia15 said:


> Surprising that Apple hasn't brought down the price of Mac's to attract more people.


$499 is pretty attractive. Must be that ignorance thing rearing its head again with the hoi polloi.



Anastasia15 said:


> Perhaps prices will drop as I believe that's the core issue along with personal fear that's preventing people to migrate to Mac's. Anyone else feel the same way?


I see no need for the prices to drop. If people pay little for something that's what they think it's worth. Besides, people pay top dollar for Mercedes, BMWs, Lexus, Infiniti, et cetera, every day. And people pay even _more_ (at least around here) for the likes of Aston Martin, Bently, Rolls Royce, Maserati, Ferrari, and Lamborghini. But you still see a lot more Ford Focuses (Foci?), Honda Civics and Nissan Sentras on the roads (even in Las Vegas) than you do any of the first or second groups (but you should bear in mind, Apple has a larger market share in the computer world than BMW has in the automobile world, but when was the last time you heard _anyone_ tolling the death knell for our Bavarian friends?).

Which would _you_ rather drive? I know which one _I_ drive. And I guarantee you it's none of the latter three. Same goes for my (main) computers. Sure, I have some Windows-only boxes here, but the ones that get the most use (and the ones I most enjoy sing) have Apple logos on them.

And then we have another group of computer users for whom a Mac is simply not an option. I don't have a name for them, but they are the same sorts of people who buy cars such as a Honda Civic and then spend tens of thousands putting (usually crappy-looking, in my opinion) after-market parts on them. There's a whole group of computer users who like nothing more than to put all kinds of "souped up" parts into computers to earn some sort of bragging rights among their fellow souper-uppers. There's nothing wrong with people doing this, of course. I'd just rather spend the money on a machine put together the way I want it at the factory, so I _know_ the compatibility of the parts will be rock-solid, and I have a warranty on the individual parts and the whole package, both. And you can't build yourself a Mac from the parts hanging on Dr. Frankenstein's (or Fry's Electronics') walls.



Anastasia15 said:


> Oh and for the record.....Why do people say Macs or PC's???? That makes no sense whatsoever. They are both personal computers (hello)


It's just what people have come to call them. You're right, it makes no sense. C'est la guerre.


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## crazlunatic (Mar 9, 2007)

This may sound weird, but from my perspective, I don't think Apple is trying to compete with Microsoft. Sure they do attack Microsoft with their ads and at their keynote speeches, BUT, if Apple really wanted to compete with Windows, they would go after wide software compatibility with the Mac and make something like DirectX so users can too use Macs.

They want to brand themselves a different image, and establish their own unique user base. Maybe then, they will try to take over the PC world. who knows?


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## VegasACF (May 27, 2005)

crazlunatic said:


> This may sound weird, but from my perspective, I don't think Apple is trying to compete with Microsoft. Sure they do attack Microsoft with their ads and at their keynote speeches, BUT, if Apple really wanted to compete with Windows, they would go after wide software compatibility with the Mac and make something like DirectX so users can too use Macs.


Apple isn't attacking Microsoft directly, as that doesn't make much sense. Microsoft is, for the most part, a software company. Sure, they offer some hardware in the peripherals market and the console gaming market, but they don't make a machine comparable to a Macintosh. Apple has one foot in both camps, while also having pretty much the only foot that exists in the MP3 player market--there are other companies in the game, but none with the track record of Apple's iPod.

Apple is making broad-stroke attacks against Dell, Gateway, Compaq, HP, et cetera, by attacking Windows-only machines. Macs are now capable of running Windows natively. To go after Microsoft wouldn't make much sense, as Apple is trying to woo Microsoft users. There is a difference.



crazlunatic said:


> They want to brand themselves a different image, and establish their own unique user base. Maybe then, they will try to take over the PC world. who knows?


They've already done this. Those of us who use Macs do so because we love them, and we can get our work done with them, while still having a smile upon our visages.

I'm not sure Apple has designs on "taking over" the "PC world" any more than BMW wants to take over the automotive world.


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## Headrush (Feb 9, 2005)

MSM Hobbes said:


> The biggest issue here, IMHO, is that many of the IT ppl are ignorant about what an Apple can do, or have their ways about them where the coding via Windows is what they love.


Bingo. You hit the nail on the head. Some of the old reteric just gets so old.

Price: If you compare EQUAL systems, Apple isn't overly expensive. If people are complaining that they can still get a Windows system for $200 cheaper, then it isn't about being competitive, its about them being cheap.
(Spare me the I can't afford arguments, as your missing the point I suggesting.)

Programs: There exist more Windows specific programs than Mac based programs. It's a fact. But Macs do have several options for running Windows only apps if needed. For the most part, all the common apps that home users use, web browsing, email, word processing, etc, the Macs are just as suitable .

Learning curve: If there is one argument that drives me nuts, its this one. Sure there are differences, but for the most part they are quite trivial and easily picked up. I'm pretty sure most users will figure it out that there is only one menu bar and the options they need are in there. A CD icon on the desktop, what could that mean? Sure moving it to trash to eject is different, but hardly earth shattering to learn. The hardest part I think any Windows user will have is no Start Menu. (Himmelbar to the rescue) 
In application is pretty much the same as Windows, just a cleaner GUI IMHO.

Interesting tidbit: My ISP came to upgrade my cable/Internet this week and the Internet didn't work after changing the modem. When we went to renew the IP address on the computer he freaked when he saw a Mac. To quote: "I hate Macs, I hate mac programs, I hate everything about them." Of course I guaranteed it wasn't the Mac, but he insisted on getting his Windows tablet from his van. Guess what, it didn't work either.
(Good thing I had already temporarily disconnected my router also, as he would have lost it. He did even mention when he saw it sitting there that "Our modems don't work well with routers." Are you kidding me? Like the modem knows whether it is a Mac, a Windows PC, or a router asking for an IP.)

I think the best arguments for Macs are:

1) Apple controls the hardware, so for the most part you know it will be supported. Not some obscure driver for brand XYZ peripheral.

2) A better UI. I believe programs that follow the Apply Human Interface Guidelines are simpler and easier to understand. Little things like highlighting a button here and system wide drag and drop are often under appreciated and utilized.

3) Better core system. (BSD)
(Technical discussion not required)


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## linskyjack (Aug 28, 2004)

Apple is at the mercy of Windows because Steve Jobs wanted to keep everything proprietary and Bill Gates did not. Its not that complex. If Jobs licensed OSX to anyone and everyone, I am convinced that Apple would dominate the market.


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## crazlunatic (Mar 9, 2007)

I don't think Apple would dominate the market, although they would be able to give a good fight if they wanted to.

Firstly, people have been using a PC for ages. The majority of PC users are not tech-savvy and are afraid to adapt to an apple. The sound of "upgrade" scares my father because you are always going to have some compatibility issues. Apple just doesn't have that compatibility. Many are unsure, and are afraid to switch. 

I have been using Windows for 10 years. I would hate for the apps that I have been using regularly to stop functioning. 

Another reason why Apple has been so succesful lately is that they've been able to differentiate themselves, unlike Nvidia and ATI whom offer fairly close products. Apple has the look, the unique OS, the dock, the icons, the Final Cut Pro, you name it.


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## VegasACF (May 27, 2005)

crazlunatic said:


> Firstly, people have been using a PC for ages.


Am I to assume that "ages" equals the below-mentioned 10 years? I suddenly have the urge to call you "Junior." 



crazlunatic said:


> The majority of PC users are not tech-savvy and are afraid to adapt to an apple. The sound of "upgrade" scares my father because you are always going to have some compatibility issues. Apple just doesn't have that compatibility. Many are unsure, and are afraid to switch.


What are these compatibility issues of whence you speak? I've got high-end audio hardware and software that is ten years old (funny how that amount of time keeps cropping up) that runs _fabulously_ on my G4. It ran well under MacOS 9.X, and it runs well under MacOS X 10.4.9. People fear things they do not understand. And they impart their experience with Windows, where "upgrades" more often break more things than they fix. That's simply not the case with the vast majority of Apple's "upgrades." Sure, when we went from System 6 to System 7 some things broke, but that was a major change of the OS. And even "way back then" there were fixes available, and updates to individual software titles. My biggest problem with this transition was that my copy of Larry Bird v. Dr. J One-on-One stopped working. I went to the local store that sold Apple software, described the problem, and was _given_ a copy that ran in System 7. Apple learned from this experience, as well. The transition from MacOS 9.X to MacOS X was as seamless as it could possibly be, and the developers were given enough time to create whatever fixes (if any) needed to be created for a nearly simultaneous release with the new OS. And when you add in the Classic environment that Apple built into the new OS, which worked for 99% of the MacOS 9.X software that wouldn't run in MacOS X, the switch was painless.



crazlunatic said:


> I have been using Windows for 10 years. I would hate for the apps that I have been using regularly to stop functioning.


So would I. And I can't recall it happening on the Mac. I can't say the same for my Windows experience, which is as long in the tooth as my Mac experience.



crazlunatic said:


> Another reason why Apple has been so succesful lately is that they've been able to differentiate themselves, unlike Nvidia and ATI whom offer fairly close products. Apple has the look, the unique OS, the dock, the icons, the Final Cut Pro, you name it.


I thought those were all things that Microsoft invented with its Vista release. Silly me.


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## crazlunatic (Mar 9, 2007)

Lol. I like your joke xD. Did you see the video where this guy with a thick accent from an Apple conference came out? That was jokes.

Anyway, I guess this is all because you're hearing this from a gamer...


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## Anastasia15 (Feb 21, 2007)

Guys let's not argue. Please...use the system that you like best. I know people who hate Macs and others are not fond of using Windows. Both systems have their advantages and disadvantages. I'm switching eventually to Macs. That is my decision as I don't care for Windows. I may like it or I may not, something tells me that I will be pleased with Macs. Also, since I'm not a gamer I won't really be missing anything from Windows.

I want a RELIABLE machine that will handle personal/small business needs etc..
I just did some research in to ilife and people have nothing but positive comments.
Mac CSR which btw. is very important to me has been said to be excellent, nothing more unplesant than dealing with arrogant and inpatient people. (Yuck) 

Given the poor results from Vista, an angry public, loss in market share and serious compatibility issues I would say Apple is looking pretty good.


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## Headrush (Feb 9, 2005)

linskyjack said:


> Apple is at the mercy of Windows because Steve Jobs wanted to keep everything proprietary and Bill Gates did not. Its not that complex. If Jobs licensed OSX to anyone and everyone, I am convinced that Apple would dominate the market.


I don't agree.
If Apple had priced Macs aggressively when they first appeared, proprietary or not I believe they would have killed Windows. They instead chose the extreme markup and going after the desktop publishing crowd. 
(Choice or they failed to understand home market.)


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## Anastasia15 (Feb 21, 2007)

Headrush- Very good point. I'm just happy that I have a choice and can give Apple a fair shot. It's amazing how many people I come across in both personal and professional situations that are afraid to try something new. How will you know unless you take a risk! That doesn't apply only to computers but anything in life. 

I'm looking forward to switching to Macs. It will take some time to do the homework and decide on which system will be best but that's part of the journey and I embrace it fully.:up:


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## remaja (May 15, 2006)

hey look another debate. ok, it's a intellectual tech discussions...again

I started with windows and I'm still with windows, why? 

Because I like to have miles of cables at the back of my PC.

Because I just love tearing my hair off while I'm troubleshooting computers.

Because I love to be infected with viruses,

Because I love it when bill gates charge us for yet another crappy product that was delayed for so long.

ok I'll consider a MAC now if I can get use to clicking with five fingers. still they are expensive over in my place. no matter what the price are in the US.


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## linskyjack (Aug 28, 2004)

Headrush said:


> I don't agree.
> If Apple had priced Macs aggressively when they first appeared, proprietary or not I believe they would have killed Windows. They instead chose the extreme markup and going after the desktop publishing crowd.
> (Choice or they failed to understand home market.)


If Apple had not made OS proprietary, many players would get involved and drive down the prices.


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## Headrush (Feb 9, 2005)

linskyjack said:


> If Apple had not made OS proprietary, many players would get involved and drive down the prices.


Windows is proprietary so its not just that. 
By saying if the Mac OSes weren't proprietary you are assuming they would be free like Linux based OSes today, so essentially its price.

You're confusing OSes with hardware. Don't kid yourself either, many non apple manufacturers and developers made great profits in those days of high markup on Apple related products. I'd bet they all rather have those market conditions again. Most eventually concentrated on Windows only even at the lower per unit profit because of the market share became so Windows slanted.

And why did Windows <= 3.1.1 become so adopted over the better OS 7 range OSes, price. (hardware and software)


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## robomatic (Nov 5, 2004)

My first computer was a MAC. I loved it. My second computer, too. BUT, I don't think there is a high horse to be had here. Apple has attitude just like Microsoft only without the market share. I remember a host of Mac designs that were ill conceived, or did not last long, or that took advatage of the consumer.

As for operating system, I think the MAC has an edge, but only an edge, and Vista has closed on the MAC OS (by copying it).

I came close to buying a macbook right after the conversion to Intel processors, but y'know what? When Apple put out the computer with the Intel Processors, they stopped including their nice little package of software, which effectively upped the price.

Also no delete forward key. It's the little things that drive you crazy.

As for price, I don't think MACs cost that much different from PCs, but they tend to make you get little add-ons and there you go. That mac mini is cute. Packs a 2.5" HD and a DVD reader into 499. But if you want more memory and a DVD writer, you are in PCC notebook territory. Judgement call.

And if you want something less expensive? THERE'S LINUX!!!


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## VegasACF (May 27, 2005)

The usual pet peeve: MAC is an acronym. Mac is an abbreviation.



robomatic said:


> My first computer was a MAC. I loved it. My second computer, too. BUT, I don't think there is a high horse to be had here. Apple has attitude just like Microsoft only without the market share. I remember a host of Mac designs that were ill conceived, or did not last long, or that took advatage of the consumer.


Gil Amelio was at the helm of the company then, and it was in dire straights. It is a testament to the platform that it survived his tenure.



robomatic said:


> As for operating system, I think the MAC has an edge, but only an edge, and Vista has closed on the MAC OS (by copying it).


Good for Microsoft. As a user of both platforms, I welcome Windows becoming more Mac-like.



robomatic said:


> I came close to buying a macbook right after the conversion to Intel processors, but y'know what? When Apple put out the computer with the Intel Processors, they stopped including their nice little package of software, which effectively upped the price.


That's odd. My MacBook Pro came with a rather extensive suite of software, including, but not limited to, the iLife suite. You _sure_ about your information? Because my experience is diametrically opposed.



robomatic said:


> Also no delete forward key. It's the little things that drive you crazy.


Hold down the "Fuction" key in the bottom left of the keyboard and press the Delete key in the top right and it's a forward delete.



robomatic said:


> As for price, I don't think MACs cost that much different from PCs, but they tend to make you get little add-ons and there you go. That mac mini is cute. Packs a 2.5" HD and a DVD reader into 499. But if you want more memory and a DVD writer, you are in PCC notebook territory. Judgement call.


But you're using the MacOS, and that's worth the price. 



robomatic said:


> And if you want something less expensive? THERE'S LINUX!!!


Heh.


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## robomatic (Nov 5, 2004)

VegasACF said:


> The usual pet peeve: MAC is an acronym. Mac is an abbreviation.


Point taken. I don't always care, though.



VegasACF said:


> Gil Amelio was at the helm of the company then, and it was in dire straights. It is a testament to the platform that it survived his tenure.


Well BEFORE Amelio Mac offered the consumer something like a 1 year warranty on their hardware, esp. hard drives. Mac themselves had a 3 year warranty with their supplier(s). Therefore, if you as a Mac owner had a HD failure between 1 and 3 years after purchase, Apple MADE money off your equipment failure. This was harped on by MacWorld Magazine month after month in the late 80's early 90's.
Don't forget the cooling issues of that cool looking cube. I think this was post Amelio but am willing to be corrected if wrong, but I don't think I am. I also recall some big QC problems with one of their notebooks, but I've forgotten the details. Even my Plus burned out a power coil for its enclosed tube display. This was so common that the hardware geeks made available a special kit so those willing to crack the case could make the fix. I personally had this problem.
While Apple and Macs have benefitted from the return of Jobs it has suffered from his idiosyncrasies such as eliminating floppy drives a bit early, hanging on to the single button mouse a bit late, and some poorly timed hardware changes such as abandoning Nubus for PCI bus right after introducing a fresh Nubus equipped computer (which I bought). From what I can see of the progression of iPods, the tradition continues.



VegasACF said:


> Good for Microsoft. As a user of both platforms, I welcome Windows becoming more Mac-like.


Whatever works. I've been surviving nicely with XP but I've enjoyed my times on a Mac as well. I think it is good to 'steal' a good idea to make your stuff work better. It serves the customers and the community overall. And of course, Apple appropriated the original Windows technology from Xerox, which wasn't doing anything with it.



VegasACF said:


> That's odd. My MacBook Pro came with a rather extensive suite of software, including, but not limited to, the iLife suite. You _sure_ about your information? Because my experience is diametrically opposed.


I'm speaking directly of the AppleWorks or MacWorks whatever you want to call it. Performed word processing and spreadsheet functions so you had an alternative to purchasing OFFICE. It wasn't on the machine I looked at in CompUSA (JUNE '06). My theory was there was processor dependent code involved and they didn't bother to make the conversion to the Intel Processor (or else there was a time lag if they are now offering it, I haven't checked lately). If that software had been available on the machine I checked out in CompUSA, I might have purchsed it despite the lack of a delete forward key.



VegasACF said:


> Hold down the "Fuction" key in the bottom left of the keyboard and press the Delete key in the top right and it's a forward delete.


Yeah, I know. All the Mac Lovers say that, and it's a good feature. But that's not the same thing as a DELETE (forward key) My ACER has it top right. It's a single key I use many times a session, it works and I can find it in the dark!



VegasACF said:


> But you're using the MacOS, and that's worth the price.
> 
> Heh.


Heh
Heh
Ubuntu
Heh
Heh
ngadla!!!!!!!!!!!


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## VegasACF (May 27, 2005)

Pet peeve #2, the company is Apple. The product is a Mac. You might think I'm picking nits, but it really makes one look more informed when one uses the correct terminology, so I'm trying to assist you by pointing this out. I hope you receive it in that light. You seem to have some worthwhile insight into the topics we're discussing.



robomatic said:


> Even my Plus burned out a power coil for its enclosed tube display. This was so common that the hardware geeks made available a special kit so those willing to crack the case could make the fix. I personally had this problem.


I'm sorry you had this problem. My Plus (and my 128k, for that matter) still functions. Sometimes I boot it up just for fun. I don't believe your characterization of the kit to open the case is 100% accurate. You also had to open it to install more RAM. This was something I did. And, wow, was I impressed with myself for having a computer with a whopping 4 MB of RAM! In any case, the kit was necessary to open the case for any access to the innards of the computer, and was stock tools in Apple-certified shop.



robomatic said:


> While Apple and Macs have benefitted from the return of Jobs it has suffered from his idiosyncrasies such as eliminating floppy drives a bit early, hanging on to the single button mouse a bit late, and some poorly timed hardware changes such as abandoning Nubus for PCI bus right after introducing a fresh Nubus equipped computer (which I bought). From what I can see of the progression of iPods, the tradition continues.


What you see as idiosyncrasies, I see as being forward-looking. I guess the difference is a matter of perspective. I haven't missed a floppy drive at all. And I hadn't used one for quite some time before Apple eschewed them. I had gone over completely to Zip disks and SuperDisks for "small" files and CD-Rs for "large files" whenever I didn't use the network(s) to which I was connected. I even went so far as to remove the floppy drive from my 9600 and replaced it with a second Zip drive. Of course, the SuperDisk drive that I had (I installed a USB PCI card in the 9600, also) would also read standard floppies, so if ever I needed one I had one available. I can't recall that ever being the case, though.

As for the continued (until recently) use of a single-button mouse--so what? Is any _serious_ computer user content to use the mouse that ships with his computer? I've never been. To that end, I've used multi-button trackballs (trackballs because of the limited deskspace my [musical] keyboards and other controllers left thereon) since the early 90s. If someone didn't like a single-button mouse there were reasonably affordable solutions that were far superior to the two-button mice available OEM with Windows machines. Even if my Macs of those days _had_ shipped with something involving 2+ buttons I would certainly have gone with the more ergonomically appropriate device for my uses. So the whole one-button mouse argument only goes with those hapless souls who stay with OEM devices.

So what if PCI Macs came out and NuBus was left behind? Did your NuBus Mac suddenly quit working in protest of this change? I understand a bit of being upset about technology moving forward after one has made a purchase, but that's the nature of the beast. It always has been, and always will be. But I know, firsthand, of major L.A. recording studios that, as of _two years ago_, were still using NuBus-based Pro Tools systems for editing. If it ain't broke, don't fix it.

I also don't get your iPod comment, for reasons the same as above. My 4th generation 40GB iPod still works fine. So what if I can't play movies on it? Would I really want to watch a movie on a 2" screen? Nope.



robomatic said:


> Whatever works. I've been surviving nicely with XP but I've enjoyed my times on a Mac as well.


Indeed. I use both platforms, and there are strengths and weaknesses to both. I prefer the Mac environment, though.



robomatic said:


> I think it is good to 'steal' a good idea to make your stuff work better. It serves the customers and the community overall. And of course, Apple appropriated the original Windows technology from Xerox, which wasn't doing anything with it.


This is a misunderstanding or misstatement of what actually took place regarding the arrangement with Xerox and Apple.

First, many aspects of the graphical user interface predate the Xerox PARC work.

Second, the use of a menu bar came from the Lisa, another Apple project, not from anything Xerox had implemented. These were features that simply did not exist in Xerox's GUI-based OS.

Third, use of the word "appropriate" is, well, inappropriate. This word has negative connotations (though I think that's probably your intent, since you also use the word "steal" in the same paragraph). Apple _paid_ Xerox for its access to the PARC engineers, and Xerox understood that Apple's intentions were to "pick the brains" of said engineers to create its own GUI-based OS.

To be fair, Microsoft licensed certain aspects of the Macintosh OS as well. Microsoft won the suits filed against it by Apple, but largely because Apple's legal strategy was unsound. Apple contended that _any_ OS based on a GUI similar to theirs (that is, one using pull-down menus, mouse pointers, icons, etc.) exceeded the scope of Microsoft's license, and violated Apple's copyrights. The judge held, and rightly so, that these elements were implemented differently, and even if they had not been were more akin to ideas than copyrightable elements of a design. You can't copyright an idea.

Fourth, it is not true that Xerox "wasn't doing anything" with its GUI. The Xerox Star system came onto the market in 1981. Of course, it didn't achieve the success that Xerox wished it would, still, Xerox was not letting the GUI it designed simply lay dormant. This has little bearing on the GUI developed by Apple, though.

Finally, the notion that "stealing" something from competitors is a "good thing" may be true in some circumstances, but when it interferes with intellectual property law there is a problem, and that is where I would draw the line. As I mentioned, you can't copyright an idea, but other protection exists for IP. And I do not in any way advocate the theft of such. I guess I would say that whenever the word "stealing" actually (legally) applies, that line has been crossed.



robomatic said:


> I'm speaking directly of the AppleWorks or MacWorks whatever you want to call it. Performed word processing and spreadsheet functions so you had an alternative to purchasing OFFICE. It wasn't on the machine I looked at in CompUSA (JUNE '06). My theory was there was processor dependent code involved and they didn't bother to make the conversion to the Intel Processor (or else there was a time lag if they are now offering it, I haven't checked lately). If that software had been available on the machine I checked out in CompUSA, I might have purchsed it despite the lack of a delete forward key.


AppleWorks hasn't been updated since January of 2004. That predates the first Intel-based Mac by two years. In fact, the G4 line would still be produced for another several months, and the G5 line would be produced for more than two years. I don't think the Intel switch played into the decision. I think Apple decided that pouring money into the continued development of software that would never prove as profitable as the industry standards, Word and WordPerfect was pouring money down a bottomless pit.

Also, you should be aware that AppleWorks was _never_ offered OEM on the "Pro" level of Macs. It only came on the iBook and iMac series.

If you're looking for something other than Word or WordPerfect you should consider OpenOffice.



robomatic said:


> Yeah, I know. All the Mac Lovers say that, and it's a good feature. But that's not the same thing as a DELETE (forward key) My ACER has it top right. It's a single key I use many times a session, it works and I can find it in the dark!


It's not that different from saying that my keyboard only offers CAPS when I press the shift key. And if your ACER keyboard is USB you can use it on your Mac. Problem solved.


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## MSM Hobbes (Apr 23, 2004)

An interesting read/take on history regarding Apple & MS...

http://www.roughlydrafted.com/RD/RDM.Tech.Q1.07/EFDF04D6-8FE9-49E2-878C-B15FA27F1CCA.html


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## wish i had a mac (Feb 3, 2007)

MSM Hobbes said:


> An interesting read/take on history regarding Apple & MS...
> 
> http://www.roughlydrafted.com/RD/RDM.Tech.Q1.07/EFDF04D6-8FE9-49E2-878C-B15FA27F1CCA.html


 lol! Man, that's a good article.:up: Highly entertaining. It points out so many flaws in corporate strategy and technological stalls on the part of certain entities which I'll not name. I couldn't help laughing at the greed and stupidity shown by certain execs who I will not name. I suppose a PC user such as myself could just as easily find it depressing or angering or just plain bewildering, though.
I also like the article on the iPhone that you're linked to when you click on the picture of Steve Ballmer (whoops! I said I wouldn't name them). http://www.roughlydrafted.com/RD/RDM.Tech.Q1.07/81624380-585E-46D9-9F82-69DBC92C6E67.html

For all his infinite geekiness, among other more significant faults, in my opinion Bill Gates does have one major redeeming quality: unlike so many big-name execs before him who have also vacuumed out consumers' pockets for unworthy products/services, "the dollar" Bill has pledged the largest portion of his outrageous fortune to a very worthy cause, charity. And for that, he has my respect. 
...Although, when you have THAT much money, it would be pretty sickeningly selfish NOT to-- alright, I won't finish that sentence.


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## wish i had a mac (Feb 3, 2007)

I probably don't need to say this since my screen name kinda gives it away, but unless some major changes occur in the computer industry, when I buy a new computer it's going to be a Mac.


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## Squashman (Apr 4, 2003)

Anastasia15 said:


> My thoughts...I share some of the fears that people are experiencing when deciding to leave Windows once and for all. If Apple was to bring their computers down to $800 I guarantee you Microsoft would eventually go out of business.


No, they wouldn't. You are not really seeing the big picture. Microsoft is more than just developing Windows. They have a spot in just about every market. I thought the same way as you many years ago, but after working with Microsoft the past couple of years and attending the Global Summit, I don't ever see that happening. I have always felt that Netware is the Superior Network OS but Microsoft found a way to overtake their large market share. Now Netware barely has 10% of the market. But I still feel today that it is the better Network OS then Windows Server. Especially when used in conjunction with ZenWorks. But most networks these days are a mixed environment.


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## VegasACF (May 27, 2005)

Squashman said:


> No, they wouldn't. You are not really seeing the big picture. Microsoft is more than just developing Windows. They have a spot in just about every market. I thought the same way as you many years ago, but after working with Microsoft the past couple of years and attending the Global Summit, I don't ever see that happening. I have always felt that Netware is the Superior Network OS but Microsoft found a way to overtake their large market share. Now Netware barely has 10% of the market. But I still feel today that it is the better Network OS then Windows Server. Especially when used in conjunction with ZenWorks. But most networks these days are a mixed environment.


Coupled with the facts that Apple has a Macintosh that sells (and has sold for a couple of years) at $499 and the fact that the above has not yet happened, I agree that this will not happen. If BMW lowered its prices to that of a Honda Civic you may well see more BWMs on the streets than Honda Civics. But at what price? I'd rather have a BMW as they exist today than one after this hypothetical situation occurred.


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## edsac64 (Oct 10, 2005)

Hi Anastasia,

I was where you are just a few weeks ago. After months of watching my wife struggle every night trying to get her online learning coursework done, only to be frustrated with all the crap that loads onto the PC from surfing the web, DESPITE having all sorts of security, I said to hell with it. I stopped in the local Apple store and chatted with a rep. He was EXTREMELY knowledgeable and suggested I set up a one hour one on one session with someone to get to know the Mac further. I brought my wife and he spent the time analyzing exactly what we do. I was drawn to the MacBook Pro, but he was quick to point out that it was quite beyond what we needed. Imagine, someone selling DOWN?? Needless to say, we were sold. They transferred the data from our old PC, but left it resident on the old machine in case we needed it. They installed Microsoft Office for Mac on the machine, which is fully compatible with any Windows files. I took it home, removed it from the box, turned it on, it instantly found my wireless router, and I was up and running!!

Their support has been wonderful, but most of all, the machine is simply AWESOME!! My wife loves it and the kids and I have hardly been able to get near it. Yes, it's a bit different, but isn't each version of Windows different, both good and bad? My advice is to get to an Apple store, if you have one close by, and spring for the Pro Care.

Good luck and let me know how you make out.


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## MSM Hobbes (Apr 23, 2004)

edsac64 - which Mac did you finally decide upon then? Sorry, didn't see it mentioned in your post specifically, but guess the MB [since you were slobbering over the MBP?]


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## edsac64 (Oct 10, 2005)

Hey Hobbes,

We got the 2.0 GHz MB, along with a wireless keyboard and Mighty Mouse, plus the adapter to use our regular monitor, to use it as a desktop when desired. Yeah, the MBPro was quite a lot more that what we really needed, but I was attracted to the look and feel of it. My wife loved the MB's size and weight.

I plan to replace the dinosaur PC with an iMac soon. Do you have any experience with the AirPort Extreme wireless base? I've got a US Robotics MaxG wireless router that I'm thinking about swapping out.


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## MSM Hobbes (Apr 23, 2004)

Yea, the MB's are great machines. :up: The MBP I like the backlit keyboard, better graphic card, the feel of the keyboard, etc., but yea, I couldn't justify the extra $ for those items - and esp. since I bought the 24" iMac the previous week... 

No, I use a [brain died,,, searching memory,,, coming up empty... drats  ] {insert name here} router - and it works great. From what I have read/heard the AE, esp. the latest version, is very powerful. But,,, as mine does what it needs just fine for now, I am happy.

Have fun!


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