# LOUD new attic ventilation fan on roof



## lamb4god

I recently had to reroof our house and they installed new attic ventilation fans which are louder than the A/C unit, louder than the radio, and a source of irritation to me as I am home all day. The constant drone is maddening. Should I insist they fix this before we pay for the roof?


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## Koot

Obviously the fan's vibration noise is being transmitted into the living area...at a higher level than you're willing to accept. 

The ventilator fan's blade may be a little out-of-balance causing it to vibrate excessively, or the fan's mounting may not be secured well enough...or secured too well. By being secured 'too well' I mean that it's possible to add a flexible insulating layer between the fan's mounting flange and the roof's plywood to absorb some or most of the vibration and sound. 

I would definitely have the roofer check the ventilation fan and see what the problem is...and come up with a fix.


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## lamb4god

Thanks, Koot. I'll definitely have him check it out and point out your suggestions, too. :-D Thanks, again.


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## hewee

Have them fix it because you should not hear the fan.


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## Koot

hewee said:


> Have them fix it because you should not hear the fan.


I've had numerous homes with powered roof ventilators over the years. I've always been able to hear (to some degree) fan noise in rooms that were directly below where the fans were mounted in the roof sheathing (when the fan is operating). The fan noise was never disturbing except for the few times I've had correctable noise related issues over the years that were always resolved, as follows:

One time when the motor bearings were failing (squealing)
One time when a newly installed ventilator fan had a bent blade, which caused an out-of-balance condition and a lot of mechanical vibration.
One time when the screen mesh (to keep birds/animals out) was not secured properly and causing mechanical vibration.

There will always be some degree of noise associated with a 'powered' roof ventilator, if no other reason for the fact that there is a large amount of air movement forced through a venturi opening, and of course the noise that a motor makes while under load. Some of this noise can be reduced by adding a flexible insulating/padding layer between the fan's mounting flange and the roof sheathing to absorb some or most of the vibration and sound.

I would first check to make sure the noise isn't coming from a bent (out-of-balance) fan blade or loose screen mesh or dome cap that is vibrating.


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## Noyb

I was told by a house inspector that attic vent fans are no good.
They bring in the hot air from the roof vents ... 
The air is supposed to come in from the soffit vents that is cooler, Not heated by the sun on the roof.
It's the roof that you want to cool with the proper air flow .. not the attic

He obviously wasn't selling fans 
I'd get them fixed ... or my money back


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## Koot

Noyb said:


> I was told by a house inspector that attic vent fans are no good.
> They bring in the hot air from the roof vents ...
> The air is supposed to come in from the soffit vents that is cooler, Not heated by the sun on the roof.
> It's the roof that you want to cool with the proper air flow .. not the attic
> 
> He obviously wasn't selling fans
> I'd get them fixed ... or my money back


If the attic ventilation 'system' is designed correctly a powered roof ventilator can still be helpful. But, in most cases a powered roof ventilator is used/added instead of (or in lieu of) a more efficient attic ventilation 'system'.

Adequate under-eave soffit vents and gable vents (location and square inches) along with adequate ridge-top vents (location and square inches) will usually be all that is necessary to continuously move hot air out of the attic by drawing in cooler outside air through the soffitgable vents and expelling the [much hotter] attic air out through the ridge-top vents. However, depending on the house architecture/roof design (and desired aesthetics) this is not always possible in certain areas of the roof. Thus, a powered roof ventilator is often used. That said, most of the time that a powered roof ventilator is used/added the builder/owner choose to do so instead of using/adding adequate soffit, gable and ridge-top vents.


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## lamb4god

I appreciate the input. I believe I'll insist they fix the noise. I don't believe anyone would be able to tolerate this full-time. I wouldn't be surprised to learn the blades were bent upon installation. In any case, I'm now convinced they can and SHOULD fix them. (There are THREE fans - all newly installed.)


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## hewee

Koot said:


> I've had numerous homes with powered roof ventilators over the years. I've always been able to hear (to some degree) fan noise in rooms that were directly below where the fans were mounted in the roof sheathing (when the fan is operating). The fan noise was never disturbing except for the few times I've had correctable noise related issues over the years that were always resolved, as follows:
> 
> One time when the motor bearings were failing (squealing)
> One time when a newly installed ventilator fan had a bent blade, which caused an out-of-balance condition and a lot of mechanical vibration.
> One time when the screen mesh (to keep birds/animals out) was not secured properly and causing mechanical vibration.
> 
> There will always be some degree of noise associated with a 'powered' roof ventilator, if no other reason for the fact that there is a large amount of air movement forced through a venturi opening, and of course the noise that a motor makes while under load. Some of this noise can be reduced by adding a flexible insulating/padding layer between the fan's mounting flange and the roof sheathing to absorb some or most of the vibration and sound.
> 
> I would first check to make sure the noise isn't coming from a bent (out-of-balance) fan blade or loose screen mesh or dome cap that is vibrating.


Guess I can say yes and no on the noise.
Over my dads he had two I help put in that were the same. One in the house or attic over the living and the other in the garage. 
The one in the garage does make a lot of noise but the garage has no ceiling so it open all the way up.
the house part the attic is full of insulation with batts and blown insulation over that so that keeps you from hearing it in the house.

So if you got no insulation in the attic of the house then yes you may hear it tru the drywall ceiling and worse if the fan is not installed right.


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## hewee

Attics need to be vented well. Back in the early 1980 I worked at a housing track that was using the cheaper press boards for all the siding and roofing and lots of that type of wood was newer at the time. Yes could not stand up to getting wet. These homes were on the coast and they had to come in years later and redo all the siding, overhead doors and roofs with wood to stand up to the weather.


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## lamb4god

We had heavy rain last night and the loud, newly installed attic ventilation fans leaked! The winds were at 12mph. Is this to be expected? The floor, the only one truly visible, was soaked underneath one fan.


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## Koot

lamb4god said:


> We had heavy rain last night and the loud, newly installed attic ventilation fans leaked! The winds were at 12mph. Is this to be expected? The floor, the only one truly visible, was soaked underneath one fan.


No, that's not normal...at all! The outside lower lip of the dome on a powered roof ventilator fits below (and is larger than) the raised lip of the venturi (air flow opening), which prevents rain from being able to come through the venturi opeing and into the attic area. You may get a tiny mist inside if it's raining and the wind is blowing 40mph or more...but not at 12mph winds.

It makes me wonder if the ventilators' upper two-thirds of the mounting flange is properly mounted under the roofing shingles. ( http://content.costco.com/Images/Content/Product/119951.jpg )

Do you know what brand and model powered roof ventilators you had installed?


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## lamb4god

We found a paper inserted in one of the fans that says: LOMANCOOL 2000. That's all I know. Roofer provided no paperwork.


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## Koot

lamb4god said:


> We found a paper inserted in one of the fans that says: LOMANCOOL 2000. That's all I know. Roofer provided no paperwork.


http://www.buildsite.com/dbderived/lomanco/derived_files/derived64656.pdf

http://www.lomanco.com/public.lomanco.com/PDF/Powervent/2000.pdf

By looking at the ventilator, can you see if two-thirds of the ventilator's upper mounting flange is under roof shingles?


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## hewee

You think a roofer would know how the fan goes on the roof because it's the same as all the other roof jacks.

Don't know how much wind that can take but I would guess 80 or more mph or where the wind gust would take the fan off the roof and then it would leak.


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## Koot

Yep, you would think any experienced roofer would know how to properly install a roof ventilator. What surprises me more than the noise issue, is that the owner saw rain water on the attic floor ("_soaked_") directly under the roof ventilator with only 12mph associated winds. That just does not make any sense...at all.


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## lamb4god

Thanks so much for the pics and info. Here are pics of my fans after the roofers came out "for repairs" for the third time: http://s732.photobucket.com/albums/ww321/blc246/. He claims he fixed the leaks AND the noise (saw no evidence of that). What do you think? Do they look properly mounted?


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## lamb4god

Pics of vent fans from inside attic after rain: http://s732.photobucket.com/albums/ww321/blc246/.


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## Koot

Yes, they look to be properly mounted...with the upper two-thirds of the ventilator's mounting flange under the roof shingles.

Did the roofer explain what he found that caused the leak? Did the roofer explain what he did to fix the leak? Did you ask? The leak you found (and what the roofer did to fix it) makes absolutely no sense to me whatsoever...

As for the noise (which was your original problem), I'm guessing you will likely have to live with it. Your ventilator is fully metallic, which transmits noise easier than does PVC. Personally I would rather have a full metallic ventilator because PVC will crack and deteriorate over-time, but PVC does lower the noise somewhat. The design and materials (motor, brackets, mounting flange, dome, vermin mesh, etc.) used in your ventilator may make it noisier than other brands. 

I'm curious - did you have powered roof ventilators before getting your house re-roofed? If not, who did the electrical wiring for the ventilators? Did you or the roofer do any comparisons of different brands and models of roof ventilators? Comparisons of ventilator CFM specifications? Any discussion about installing ridge vents instead of powered roof ventilators?


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## Koot

lamb4god said:


> Pics of vent fans from inside attic after rain: http://s732.photobucket.com/albums/ww321/blc246/.


*Bad!* The roof decking (exterior plywood sheathing) should have had a 14" diameter (circular) hole cut for the ventilator - NOT a square cut out exposing any underside of your shingles... That's just asking for water penetration and leaks. (Read the installation instructions I provided in a previous post.) You should NOT see any roofing shingles from the under side of the attic. Inferior job... This makes me wonder about the roof shingles...and the integrity of the entire job.

Do you know anything about the roofing itself? Felt? Thickness or pound grade of felt? Did he use nails or staples? How many per shingle?


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## Koot

I'm assuming the white caulk I see (in this picture) on the lower right-hand side of the shingles around the ventilator was the roofer's 'fix' for your leak. If so, and I'm afraid it is, this repair/fix will not last more than a few months...at the most. I think the water is coming in somewhere else above that point, but of course I cannot tell.

As mentioned in my previous post, the ventilators were not installed correctly by cutting a 14" circular hole in the roof plywood sheet so just the ventilator's venturi opening is all that penetrates the roof. Sadly, to correct this problem the shingles (over each piece of plywood sheet that was incorrectly cut with a square cutout) will need to be removed and a new piece of plywood installed and then re-roofed...and the ventilator re-installed correctly by cutting a round (circular) 14" hole.

I cannot tell where the rain water came in of course, but seeing the water on the motor - it's clear that the ventilator motor will not last very long becoming wet like that with just moderate rains. Those motors are not rated for wet conditions. And that doesn't even speak to the likelihood of damage to ceilings, etc. that may become wet due to leaking.

My guess is that you don't have much experience in building, and thus didn't do any research much about the roofing company (quality of work, experience, etc.), the shingles (brand, life, warranty, requirements for warranty, etc.), felt (if required for roofing warranty, thickness/pounds, etc), nails/staples (type, number per shingle), roof ventilators (brand, noise level, CFM, etc.) or the proper installation requirements of the ventilators. Unfortunately, it looks like you may have a mess on your hands. Hope you can withhold payment, stop payment...or whatever it takes until you get it all straightened out.


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## lamb4god

That is very bad news. No, we don't have much experience (none) but this company had/has a good reputation with BBB and Angie's List and a co-worker. Still, we didn't scare them first by asking a lot of questions like: What do you do if it rains while you're roofing? We just asked them to shingle with same shingles we had before (since learned they have self-sealing ones that would have been nice). Also they told us that new felt really wasn't needed (tho marked on contract) and would it be alright to just replace where and if needed. Foolishly agreed. I thought husband was handling this and vice versa. What a mess. Didn't discuss the fans at all except to note they would be replaced. No discussion either about the nails/staples.

My only consolation is that, with jobs over $10,000, I've learned that a state Home Builder's license is required by the contractor. He DOESN'T have one. He can be fined and prosecuted. I now feel obligated to post my story on AngiesList.com and at the BBB. We had 27 tornadoes come through here (Alabama) on April 27. They have overextended themselves trying to take advantage of the situation and victimizing victims as a result. 

Thanks so much for your help and your advice. You'll never know how much this helps and how it just really touches my heart that you'd take the time to help (even posting pictures!). You're an amazing person.


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## lamb4god

I asked plenty of questions in rapid fire. Unfortunately, the mexican supervisor they send each time speaks broken English and it's difficult to understand him. I actually asked him if he needed any further instructions on how to fix the loudness of the fans after he assured me that the leaks around the fans had been fixed (didn't explain how for fans; said caulked around leaking pipes). I had a difficult time communicating with him and get the impression that he just does whatever small amount of work he can to get by, to make it appear that he's fixed the problem, and then he disappears. So, I have to call them again and again. 

After multiple attempts to question, he finally admitted fixing TWO out of the SIX leaking ventilation pipes I found. I got sidetracked explaining to him that I had found more than two myself and that he needs to fix ALL of them. 

I think the entire roof needs to be redone. Since the job was over $10,000 I've learned I'm eligible for an Alabama Recovery Fund for up to $20,000 for a new roof and for attorney fees after I report him for not having that legally required license. I hate to have to do this but I had no confidence in the quality of his work BEFORE talking to you guys. I don't think we can proceed with fixing the 5 ceilings they've damaged until we get a new roof. Life won't be normal for a long time.


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## lamb4god

To further explain the situation, these unskilled, unsupervised workers (illegal aliens) worked in a pouring rainstorm over 2 hours on my roof. They did nothing to protect it and, furthermore, they left gaping holes open to the sky around ventilation pipes - both during the storm and throughout the rainy night. Call to contractor to no avail. Damaged ceilings in FIVE rooms. They are apologetic and say, "These things happen in business." No tarps on sight. There was a nice, big roll of plastic ice sheeting which they ignored.

Yes, I doubt EVERYTHING they do and question everything now. The library had a nice book I wish I'd read beforehand entitled something like, "Sixty Ways Not to be Nailed by Your Roofer."


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## hewee

Koot said:


> Yep, you would think any experienced roofer would know how to properly install a roof ventilator. What surprises me more than the noise issue, is that the owner saw rain water on the attic floor ("_soaked_") directly under the roof ventilator with only 12mph associated winds. That just does not make any sense...at all.


Some I have seen at the bottom of the fan the metal that is over the roofing they put nails in the corners. You can see this a lot. But the nails really need to go into something more then the plywood or press board under it and into a 2x4. Then they coat over the nail or better a screw to seal it.
But if the vent was put into the right spot then you may not even have to nail down the bottom flap and that would be best because all nail holes are under the roofing.


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## hewee

Looks like they have the screws in the corner like I said and they do not look sealed. One image looks like white caulking on the shingle. Plus the shingles do not seem to be laying down flat. A bad roofing job where they do not take off the plastic strips on the back of each shingle that is there to keep the spots of tar from sticking need to come off so they will help hold all the flaps down. 
I have seen and sho have you very old home with the roof shingles that came with the house and new homes after the first winter or winds where shingles fly off the roof. I can see spots where the shingles are not laying down like they should be. Now hard to really say from what I see but just looks that way to me from the pictures. 
Plus that hole should be round. They use a skill saw and that is OK but you can make it a 8 sided cut that will make it somewhat round still. Plus I would block it all the way around. Looks like that one 2x was added on because they needed it to nail the plywood to. 

That is not roofing shingles showing on the under side but the roofing paper so that is OK if I am right. But should have paper over it also to help seal the seal better and to go under the shingles.

The 5 of 14 I see the water. Even water spots on the blade so that's really odd. 
Water could be up as high as the peak of the roof and running all the way down but you just happen to have a hole there because they added the fan. I would also look around your whole attic where any pipes or vents are at. Even look at the edge of each sheet of wood for leaks.
If you can get help from someone then get a long water hose and if you each have a cell phone then one of you go into the attic and best with a corded drop light and the other outside on the roof with the water hose and he starts at the bottom and works his way up. Not to fast because you have to gave time for the way to make it way under and down inside. Do all valleys, any any edges of the roof where you have to check under side from the outside and then at all roof jacks. Not hard to do if you have a simple roof with a couple sides. 
I have seen step flashing all put in backwards so the flashing did not do anything. 

I would say from what you said about the roofer and the leaks that nothing can be trusted and you don't need more damage. Darn look where you live so you know your get bad weather and you need the roof to stay on and keep water out.
If you can get your money back then I would. Plus get money for water damage to the ceiling. 
Water stains can not just be painted either. You need them to dry. They kill them with bleach and then use a kill primer on it so you can paint. That is for painted ceiling. 

Even if you have to get on the roof with plastic then do it to stop from having more damage. If you can get someone new to start on it now as you wait to recover money from these dumb crooks then do so because the water and weather can damage so much. You don't need bad weather taking the roofing off because then your get more then ceiling damage but the walls and then floor and what ever water drips on. 

You got to get a good roof before fixing the the damage inside. 
So forget about the water hose to test the roof because the whole roof is bad.


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## lamb4god

Thanks so much, Koot and Hewee. Slightly overwhelmed at the moment, but all good advice. I thank God for you and pray He blesses you in abundance.


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## Koot

lamb4god - How did you pay for this work? How long ago did you pay for this work? If payment was made using anything other than cash, money order or official bank check, then you should be able to stop the payment...unless it's been awhile since payment was made.


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## lamb4god

We haven't paid yet. We just got a bill from them yesterday demanding payment within 3 days or they'll charge us 1.5% interest.

Anyhow, at this point, I was just trying to get them to get the roof in the best possible condition before I consider other options. Didn't realize at first just how bad things were. The additional interior damage was bad enough. This has all been such a nightmare and things just seem to be getting worse as we learn more.

Your support, tho, is so helpful. I just can't even say.

More pictures of our roof: http://s732.photobucket.com/albums/ww321/blc246/. Also, added some here http://s732.photobucket.com/albums/ww321/blc246/ - these show ceilings damaged plus the open "skylights" around pipes the night they left them that way overnight in the rain.


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## Koot

Good. Do NOT pay them. Repeat - DO NOT PAY THEM... 

Look in your local phone book and call the oldest, most experienced roofer in your area and make an appointment for 'the owner' to come out. Tell him the reason is because you need to have your roof re-roofed, not just a repair job. Once he gets to your property tell him (and show him) what the problems/issues are - all of them (leaks, interior damage, ventilator leaks, square hole for ventilators, etc., etc.). Share with him that you are not happy with the roofing job you got and do not trust (after multiple tries) that it will ever be done correctly, and therefore you feel (believe) that everything should be removed and started over...including replacing plywood sheets where square holes were cut for the fans, new felt, stub-up flanges and new shingles. See what he says, and if he agrees. Get a written quote. Ask him what pound felt he recommends, how many nails per shingle tab he'll use (no staples), etc., etc. 

Call another experienced roofer in your area and do the same thing. Get his opinion about the roofing job you now have. Get a written quote from him. 

Now you have expert 'information' from two sources and two expert witnesses. 

At the very least (if the new roofers think they can PROPERLY REPAIR the mess you have), then deduct that amount for repairs from the original roofer's price less an ample amount (say $2,000) for your personal troubles. Don't forget your interior damage repair costs, which will be a different contractor/painter - that needs to be deducted also. Still do NOT pay the original roofer until everything is finished and you are happy. If he requests his money tell him verbally he'll be paid at a later date. Write his company a letter and briefly explain the leaks, rain water intrusion, ceiling damage, improper ventilatior fan installation, etc., etc. and how his company was unable to take care of the problems after numerous visits. He'll wait or threaten a claim suit. Let him do whatever he pleases. You're now in control and have the right to take care of things...since they will not or cannot.


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## hewee

They are dumb crooks that trusted you to pay them. So good thing your only out nothing but a headache if your get damage money from them or State.

So that should make you feel better.

How much was this all to cost you?

Wow the new pictures so so much damage and #9 shows roof jacks missing. Is #11 the under side if #9? Is that the same in #14 that got the roof jack, but then all the caulking. Caulking is not needed but they put it on for a reason like water was still getting in but bet from up higher and it just happens to run down and out at that hole.
Did they do any other damage like to the gutters. Look where they had the ladders and just all over. Also all the overhang for nails showing. #16 looks like the gutter is pulled up so bet it was smashed and they pulled it back.

Your want the new roof all take off and even the felt. Then any wood sheeting or plywood that to be needs replaced.
Wow you got water damage even in the garage. Like what is over the garage?

Call a Alabama Recovery Fund *ASAP* and a *Attorney* seeing how you should not be out of any money but need to get all damages fixed and a new roof.

Find out what all they used and what it would have cost them to see what junk you got. Better roofing cost more and those who know what they are doing and do it right can cost more also. 
You know there are many around that are better and have been around for years and can stand behind what they do. 
Look around more at the Alabama Recovery Fund and do a search to find out more that may help you out and speed things up. 
Just glad you're not out the money but now you got to recover damage and still get a new roof that may cost more to get one that is done right and will last without leaks.

I see you got attic insulation and that can stay wet a long time and hold lots of water so even without more rain you could see more showing up in the ceiling. Most places on the ceiling are all the seams or any holes in the drywall. If it gets two wet or stays to wet your see it dropping down so you may want to keep an eye out and move things under it to a safe place. 
One thing you can do is at the seams is take a 8 or 19 penny nail and make a hole and then have a bucket under it. they even after the water stops push the nail in the holes again to make sure they did not plug up. Let the water get tru faster will help keep the damage down. Also help keep all the drywall tape from coming down at the seams. So you need the drain holes in the drywall. 
I know this is all a pain because I worked on new homes and did the warranty and had 525 units in one track and the sheet metal company did a bad job so we had lots of leaks. One winter two of us keep very busy fixing leaks and the damage done inside and some was fixed buy the subs we had if it was bigger jobs of drywall and painting. We had to repaint also every fireplace. I made a template just so I could put them on each at paint.


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## hewee

Also get a write up from the others if they will on what they think was done wrong so your have it in writing because you have to go to court if he goes after you for money and your have the info to go after him for damages. 

Maybe even get a 3 written quote because they are free.


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## lamb4god

Cost was a little over $10,000. I don't know what jacks are. Overwhelmed. Insulation, lawyers, check for more leaks. I'll read this again more thoroughly tomorrow. Thank you. You're a blessing.

Called the D.A. today (after getting that bill the day before demanding payment within 3 days). Left a message. They'll probably call back Monday. I'll have more ducks in a row by then. Just got to handle this in chunks. Knowledge is power and thanks to you guys on this forum, we have knowledge.


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## aka Brett

lamb4god said:


> I appreciate the input. I believe I'll insist they fix the noise. I don't believe anyone would be able to tolerate this full-time. I wouldn't be surprised to learn the blades were bent upon installation. In any case, I'm now convinced they can and SHOULD fix them. (There are THREE fans - all newly installed.)


Are you hearing vibration or just the sound of alot of moving air?
3 fans would be very audible....you should have a thermostat you can adjust so the fans shut off when the desired cooling is reached.
For whats its worth 3 large fans can draw alot of watts...and may actually be consuming more energy that what it saves you on cooling costs...while heat gain through the attic can be substantial..its also the easiest to use plenty of insulation.
Cooling systems now days are very efficient...A ton of cooling for about a thousand watts...is more efficient than exchanging air in the attic....{unless its not insulated of course}.
In other words many fans drawing aolt of watts to say cool the attic 20 degrees....may be better spent on letting the heat pump{air conditioner} cool the living area....and can be more efficient combating the heat gain through the ceiling

How many watts are the three units combined?...whats the square footage?...how much insulation?.

It sounds to me like you have some major air movement which is going to be using a fair amount of watts

Edit:
I forgot to mention negative pressure..with three large fans,you will need a large number of soffit vents or you will be pulling air from inside your house through bathroom vents around light fixtures etc...further increasing your electric bill


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## Koot

lamb4god said:


> Cost was a little over $10,000. I don't know what jacks are. Overwhelmed. Insulation, lawyers, check for more leaks. I'll read this again more thoroughly tomorrow. Thank you. You're a blessing.
> 
> Called the D.A. today (after getting that bill the day before demanding payment within 3 days). Left a message. They'll probably call back Monday. I'll have more ducks in a row by then. Just got to handle this in chunks. Knowledge is power and thanks to you guys on this forum, we have knowledge.


Lamb,

Don't be concerned about not paying the roofer's bill. They are the ones that have caused you problems. If they had done their work correctly you would be satisfied and would pay, but that is not the case.

Is your roofer licensed, insured and bonded? If you do not know - ask. Get the license number and their insurance company's name, phone number and agent's name and phone number. You want to have all the information you can in order to rectify this matter.

I did not ask, but you mentioned all the tornadoes and storm you've had in Alabama. You did not mention anything about an insurance claim or storm damage. I assume the reason you needed your roof replaced was because it was 'just time', not because of any storm related damage. Is that correct?

Also, how old was the roof you just had replaced? Was it a 25 year or 30 year shingle? Did you have the warranty information on it. Something tells me the original roof didn't last but a fraction of warranty period. When that happens you should contact the shingle company or its dealer/distributor and see what can be done to satisfy the lack of years you failed to get from the manufacturer's shingles. Oftentimes there is a pro-rata cost adjustment...and the local dealer/distributor will get things started for a 'qualified' roofer (acceptable to the shingle company) to do the re-roofing job.

For your information, your local building supply dealers/distributors (including Home Depot and Lowes stores) could be a valuable source for reputable and qualified roofers in your area. If you want to know who the best roofers are, ask the dealer/distributors that deal with roofers on a daily basis because dealers/distributors know them and their workmanship because they sell shingles and roofing materials to them. Ask the dealer/distributor's roofing sales expert who he'd use to re-roof his own house. Ask him - "If you were going to have your house re-roofed which three roofing companies [that you sell to and know well] would you have do the work for you? You want to have all the information you can in order to rectify this matter to the best end result possible [for you].

Also, if your homeowners insurance is handled by a local agent, he/she would be another excellent source of information...as well as an expert advisor to you. Your insurance company deals with damage claims all the time and has adjustors that are familar with roof damage and repairs. Obviously the insurance company does not want their clients filing a damage claim for interior water damage when the cause of damage is due to inferior workmanship, which is clearly what you have. Again, you want to have all the information you can in order to rectify this matter to the best end result possible [for you].

Look at it this way - through no fault of your own you (your house) have damaged...and you have the right (under law) to be compensated for that damage, or for the damage to be repaired to your full satisfaction. Demand and expect nothing less... However, it is important to understand that in your efforts to rectify this mess you need as much information and knowledge as you can get. That is why you want the roofer's license number, insurance contact information, other roofer's verbal opinions about your roof and damage, competitive written quotes to repair/fix/re-roof your roof, advice from your insurance company and adjustor, roofer recommendations from shingle dealers/distributors, etc., etc. You cannot have too much information and knowledge.


----------



## aka Brett

lamb4god said:


> We found a paper inserted in one of the fans that says: LOMANCOOL 2000. That's all I know. Roofer provided no paperwork.


Just saw this post...here is a link to the fans

http://www.lomanco.com/Merchant2/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&Store_Code=LOP&Product_Code=PVMTR

On at 100f off at 85f....this means they will run a rather large portion of the summer.
If they were on all month at my location this would add $94.30 to my bill for the month........No thanks
3.4 amps x 120 volts{ for wattage total} x 3units x 720 hrs{month}....electric here is 10.7 cents for 1000 watts for 1 hour{kwh]
Thats enough to run a 13200 btu window air conditioner at 100 percent duty cycle for the same electric usage...thats over a ton of cooling power..
A newer central air unit would provide even more at the same electric usage


----------



## Koot

aka Brett said:


> Just saw this post...here is a link to the fans
> 
> http://www.lomanco.com/Merchant2/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&Store_Code=LOP&Product_Code=PVMTR
> 
> On at 100f off at 85f....this means they will run a rather large portion of the summer.
> If they were on all month at my location this would add $94.30 to my bill for the month........No thanks
> 3.4 amps x 120 volts{ for wattage total} x 3units x 720 hrs{month}....electric here is 10.7 cents for 1000 watts for 1 hour{kwh]
> Thats enough to run a 13200 btu window air conditioner at 100 percent duty cycle for the same electric usage...thats over a ton of cooling power..
> A newer central air unit would provide even more at the same electric usage


A 1/10th horsepower motor with a typical power factor that is most always used in those powered roof ventilators pull about 75 - 100 watts under typical static pressure load. Therefore, at a rate of 10 cents per KWH the cost to operate a single ventilator fan would be about 1 cent per hour. Even if the fan never cut off the electricity cost to operate a single fan 24 hours around the clock for a full month would only be about $7.44 per month ($.01 x 24 Hrs x 31 Days = $7.44).

PS - This thread has drastically changed from the topic of a 'loud attic ventilation fan' to the topic of a botched re-roofing job. The ventilator noise, as well as the cost to operate powered ventilator fans, has taken a back seat in the balcony.


----------



## aka Brett

Koot said:


> A 1/10th horsepower motor with a typical power factor that is most always used in those powered roof ventilators pull about 75 - 100 watts under typical static pressure load. Therefore, at a rate of 10 cents per KWH the cost to operate a single ventilator fan would be about 1 cent per hour. Even if the fan never cut off the electricity cost to operate a single fan 24 hours around the clock for a full month would only be about $7.44 per month ($.01 x 24 Hrs x 31 Days = $7.44).


But there are 3 fans in this case,and are not rated at 75 to 100 watts

The motors are rated at 3.4 amps per link,,,at 120 volts thats 408 watts apiece times 3 units thats 1224 watts an hour at your rate of a dime rather than my rate at 10.7...we have 12.24 cents an hour times 720 hours{30 day month} comes to $88.13
now toss in some tax and a 31 month day the figure will be close to 100 dollars....just for attic ventilation...thats ludicrous.


----------



## Koot

Lamb,

*This company* looks to be a top notch Huntsville roofing contractor. I recommend setting up an appointment to have someone look at your roofing job to get their opinion, and also to get a quote on doing whatever is necessary to make it right.


----------



## aka Brett

Upon further reading of the thread I see there is water penetration...you need to get a pro fast..have him fix it proper and deduct his cost from the original bill..wet ceilings can run into the thousands to repair


----------



## Koot

aka Brett said:


> But there are 3 fans in this case,and are not rated at 75 to 100 watts
> 
> The motors are rated at 3.4 amps per link,,,at 120 volts thats 408 watts apiece times 3 units thats 1224 watts an hour at your rate of a dime rather than my rate at 10.7...we have 12.24 cents an hour times 720 hours{30 day month} comes to $88.13
> now toss in some tax and a 31 month day the figure will be close to 100 dollars....just for attic ventilation...thats ludicrous.


I realize there is more than one fan being used on this house, but gave information based on just one fan so it could be simply understood and multiplied by however number of fans the owner has.

The fan is rated at 3.4 amps, which is maximum 'full load' rating. The fan does not operate at full 100% load, but a much lower percentage...probably loafing at about 20%-25% of full load rating. (It's kinda like a car engine only using a fraction of its horsepower to maintain a speed on a level road. It's certainly not using 100% of the engine's full horsepower and torque just to maintain the vehicle's speed at say 55mph on a level road...)

An inductive load (such as a fan motor) will likely pull as much as 6 times its rated amperage (known as 'locked rotor' condition) when it first starts-up (is energized), but the amperage load backs-off within one second or so to something far less than its full load maximum rating of 3.4 amps. I can assure you that a powered roof ventilator fan motor does not pull anywhere near the full 3.4 amps (408 watts), which is the motor's maximum specification rating. For what it's worth, no motor application uses a motor that uses anything close to 100% of the motor's [100%] rating.

As I said, the fan motor probably pulls about 75~100 watts (150 watts maximum). For ease of understanding I used 100 watts (which is 1/10th of a KWH) at 10 cents per KWH rate to arrive at $0.01 (one penny) per hour. Multiply by as many hours, days and fans as needed or wanted...


----------



## Koot

aka Brett said:


> Upon further reading of the thread I see there is water penetration...you need to get a pro fast..have him fix it proper and deduct his cost from the original bill..wet ceilings can run into the thousands to repair


Yeah, it helps to read the entire thread because the main topic has really changed from 'fan noise' to 'inferior re-roofing, interior damage and likely future damage'. Now, this thread is being sidetracked to discuss motor current draw and the cost of operating a roof fan. Hopefully we can get back to helping the original poster with their most troublesome issue at hand...


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## hewee

Getting to many post from all here and Koot is giving good info to you lamb4god so going to say.

I wish you the best and my God help you find the right company to take care of all this for you.

Your insurance company may be the best place to start because they know the more damage the more it will cost. 
Plus where you live that deal with new roof a lot I bet from the high winds taking the roof off or parts of it homes so the weather gets inside and does damage.

All yours Koot to make it more easy for lamb4god with all she has to do.

Just relax the best you can lamb4god and things will get taken care of.


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## aka Brett

Koot said:


> I realize there is more than one fan being used on this house, but gave information based on just one fan so it could be simply understood and multiplied by however number of fans the owner has.
> 
> The fan is rated at 3.4 amps, which is maximum 'full load' rating. The fan does not operate at full 100% load, but a much lower percentage...probably loafing at about 20%-25% of full load rating. (It's kinda like a car engine only using a fraction of its horsepower to maintain a speed on a level road. It's certainly not using 100% of the engine's full horsepower and torque just to maintain the vehicle's speed at say 55mph on a level road...)
> 
> An inductive load (such as a fan motor) will likely pull as much as 6 times its rated amperage (known as 'locked rotor' condition) when it first starts-up (is energized), but the amperage load backs-off within one second or so to something far less than its full load maximum rating of 3.4 amps. I can assure you that a powered roof ventilator fan motor does not pull anywhere near the full 3.4 amps (408 watts), which is the motor's maximum specification rating. For what it's worth, no motor application uses a motor that uses anything close to 100% of the motor's [100%] rating.
> 
> As I said, the fan motor probably pulls about 75~100 watts (150 watts maximum). For ease of understanding I used 100 watts (which is 1/10th of a KWH) at 10 cents per KWH rate to arrive at $0.01 (one penny) per hour. Multiply by as many hours, days and fans as needed or wanted...





> As I said, the fan motor probably pulls about 75~100 watts (150 watts maximum). For ease of understanding I used 100 watts (which is 1/10th of a KWH) at 10 cents per KWH rate to arrive at $0.01 (one penny) per hour. Multiply by as many hours, days and fans as needed or wanted..


At 75 watts it would be a 100 percent efficient motor for a tenth hp....this just doesnt happen...an electric motor with high efficiency costs thousands....the motor in question is a common shaded pole motor made by Packard
This is a common shaded pole motor rated at a tenth of a hp..it will have an efficiency of about 15 to 20 percent....larger ones do better.
A common shaded pole motor does not have power consumption that is directly related to load....No load amps are substantial compared to full load amps.
LRA{locked rotor amps} on a common shaded pole motor without a form of start assist is not high...thus why they take a while to gain speed...and are found frozen everywhere from bathroom vents to old barns used to suck the air out of a barn...without great harm being done

Also they are most efficient at about 75 percent load...so any over sizing is a complete waste of energy....a light load still uses a substantial amount of energy compared to full load.

The only way to change this is the start pulling out hundred dollars bills...even 50 percent efficiency on a tenth horse will cost hundreds.
A motor with 1 or 2 HP with decent efficiency is rather easy shopping...however anything under a fourth a horse is going to be a huge energy hog unless you pay the bucks...or stray away from the common shaded pole motor.

Also I noticed these fans were 12 inch...spinning at 1100 rpm.....air movement will be rather scant...they dont even offer cfm specs for the ventilator.
Since they are so small and are spinning so slow,they should be rather quiet...but as we can see by the thread title thats not the case...IMO these installed ventilators are absolute junk as shown by the fan size and rpm and coupled with the inefficient motors.
I am now curious to find out if the noise{from the thread starter} is air or more of a drone or buzz.
If its a drone or buzz noise then it would be from the huge electric consumption of the motors vibrating the rafters.
60hz is an irritable frequency ...just think of a frozen motor..the hum it makes..it still hums when it isnt frozen but we cant hear it because of the work its now doing.
Now take 3 of them...humming at the same time...its gets worse..lets attach them to some long rafters..no rubber isolation mounts etc.....we now have a giant resonator.
A 1000 plus watts I might add as well.........Ok for a toaster as the element is taking the beating...not quiet with a motor attached to wood.
To make it worse rafters are long and rather springy only to compound the problem...therefore transmitting sound easier.
Imbalanced fans or the hum could quickly become a problem.


----------



## aka Brett

Koot said:


> Yeah, it helps to read the entire thread because the main topic has really changed from 'fan noise' to 'inferior re-roofing, interior damage and likely future damage'. Now, this thread is being sidetracked to discuss motor current draw and the cost of operating a roof fan. Hopefully we can get back to helping the original poster with their most troublesome issue at hand...


You have been giving great advice regarding the shoddy work.
But the OP will still have 3 inferior fans installed that consume huge amounts of electricity{loud as well as the thread title suggests}/
This problem should be tackled during the fix IMO


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## lamb4god

Thanks, again, Koot. I'm following your advice carefully and have left a message with that company you found for me along with 3 others. Still feeling pretty overwhelmed but frequently referring back to this, when I'm able, for how to proceed. Just not talking much. You guys are awesome and I appreciate you so much. You're a real life line.


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## lamb4god

Thank you Kewee. I'm TRYING.


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## lamb4god

Koot said:


> Lamb,
> 
> Don't be concerned about not paying the roofer's bill. They are the ones that have caused you problems. If they had done their work correctly you would be satisfied and would pay, but that is not the case.
> 
> Is your roofer licensed, insured and bonded? If you do not know - ask. Get the license number and their insurance company's name, phone number and agent's name and phone number. You want to have all the information you can in order to rectify this matter.
> 
> I did not ask, but you mentioned all the tornadoes and storm you've had in Alabama. You did not mention anything about an insurance claim or storm damage. I assume the reason you needed your roof replaced was because it was 'just time', not because of any storm related damage. Is that correct?
> 
> Also, how old was the roof you just had replaced? Was it a 25 year or 30 year shingle? Did you have the warranty information on it. Something tells me the original roof didn't last but a fraction of warranty period. When that happens you should contact the shingle company or its dealer/distributor and see what can be done to satisfy the lack of years you failed to get from the manufacturer's shingles. Oftentimes there is a pro-rata cost adjustment...and the local dealer/distributor will get things started for a 'qualified' roofer (acceptable to the shingle company) to do the re-roofing job.
> 
> For your information, your local building supply dealers/distributors (including Home Depot and Lowes stores) could be a valuable source for reputable and qualified roofers in your area. If you want to know who the best roofers are, ask the dealer/distributors that deal with roofers on a daily basis because dealers/distributors know them and their workmanship because they sell shingles and roofing materials to them. Ask the dealer/distributor's roofing sales expert who he'd use to re-roof his own house. Ask him - "If you were going to have your house re-roofed which three roofing companies [that you sell to and know well] would you have do the work for you? You want to have all the information you can in order to rectify this matter to the best end result possible [for you].
> 
> Also, if your homeowners insurance is handled by a local agent, he/she would be another excellent source of information...as well as an expert advisor to you. Your insurance company deals with damage claims all the time and has adjustors that are familar with roof damage and repairs. Obviously the insurance company does not want their clients filing a damage claim for interior water damage when the cause of damage is due to inferior workmanship, which is clearly what you have. Again, you want to have all the information you can in order to rectify this matter to the best end result possible [for you].
> 
> Look at it this way - through no fault of your own you (your house) have damaged...and you have the right (under law) to be compensated for that damage, or for the damage to be repaired to your full satisfaction. Demand and expect nothing less... However, it is important to understand that in your efforts to rectify this mess you need as much information and knowledge as you can get. That is why you want the roofer's license number, insurance contact information, other roofer's verbal opinions about your roof and damage, competitive written quotes to repair/fix/re-roof your roof, advice from your insurance company and adjustor, roofer recommendations from shingle dealers/distributors, etc., etc. You cannot have too much information and knowledge.


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## lamb4god

KOOT,


Roofer ads claim he is licensed and insured, don't know about bonded and I have no copies of anything to prove that he's actually licensed and and insured and who with. I can attempt to get that information. Will I need it now? Will I need to contact them at this juncture?


Got the roof redone after the 27 tornadoes caused minor damage to a roof already 15 years old - a few shingles were blown off. Nothing I considered major (in comparison to others in the area) until this roofer did what he did, but insurance was paying for whole new 59 s.f. roof. BTW, I'm told I can only really expect a roof to last around 10 years. Is that wrong?

I did call to ask local insurance agent for advice (before finding you guys) and got the secretary who knew nothing at all, stated no one in the office could help me, and said I had a contract and must continue working with them. IMO, they broke the contract when they further damaged my home! 

Interesting idea about warranty on previous shingles. I don't have any information on it, on hand, tho. I'll check with my husband.

As I said before, got calls in to 4 roofers to come estimate the damage and cost to reroof. I like the idea about checking with Lowe's and Home Depot. Will try to do that also.

Thank you so much. I totally agree that you can't have too much information.


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## Koot

Lamb,

Don't worry about the bad roofer's license or insurance...or whether they're bonded. Don't even communicate with them until everything is fixed (by others) and you're happy.

It's too late now to be concerned about the original 15 year-old roof, so forget about that but you'll want full warranty information about the new roof (along with a copy of the contract to have it installed) in case you need to make a claim because it failed to last the warranty period. I suspect you likely had a 25 or 30 year roof, which did not last as long as it should have. As for a roof not lasting but about 10 years in your area - then the manufacturer should not be selling and warranting their shingles for a longer time. Right?

Did you sign a contract with the roofer that you're having a problem with?

Be honest with the roofers that come out to check your roofing job, attic ventilator installations, and interior damage. What you intend to learn from them is (a) whether the roof shingles were put on properly to meet the requirements of the shingle manufacturer in terms of warranty so any future warranty claim pertaining to the shingles will be allowed, (b) whether the attic ventilators were installed correctly per the manufacturer's installation instructions, (c) if there is a greater chance of water pentration due to the attic ventilators not being installed per the instructions, etc., etc. The roofers should be willing to point out any and all things that are not up to adequate standards that should have been done by the roofer. They should also be willing to make a brief list of these things on their estimate sheet.

After the individual roofers look at your roofing job they will have an opinion on what you should do...or have done. Some may suggest that the roofer come out and correct the problems, others may be of the opinion that the roofer has meesed up so badly that any reasonable person should not be expected to deal with them and have another roofer fix the problems. (This is what you want to ultimately learn.) Be sure and explain to the roofers coming out to look at your roof that you have tried multiple times to have the roofer fix the leaks and even though they've been back that you feel their 'fix' is nothing more than a weak and temporary fix to appease you until you pay them...then you'll be forgotten.

If it was me - I would tell each roofer how you feel about the roofer and let them know that you really want a reputable roofer to get the roof in good shape instead of dealing with the roofer that did a bad job. But, in order to have all your 'ducks in a row' you need for them to list all the things that don't meet good roofing standards so you'll have a solid reason for changing to a new roofer.

Once you find out what each of your 3-6 roofers have to say about your current roof installation (along with their estimate to replace or fix) you'll be able move forward and choose your next move. Assuming you have one or more roofers that say the roof should be fixed or replaced (and they don't blame you for having another roofer do it) then you can choose the one you feel best about based on their reputation (from dealers/distributors) and how they dealt with you. Make sure you get their estimate/quote/bid in writing with everything noted that they will be doing. You'll want shingle brand, shingle warranty (number of years), felt weight, number of nails/staples per shingle, replacement of plywood sheeting for the attic fans, etc., etc. along with a list of all the things he found wrong with the currect installation.

At some point the inferior roofer will demand payment. Wait until after the replacement/repairs/fixes are complete...this includes repairing the interior damage they caused. After everything is complete and you are happy figure out how much it all costs and compare it with the original roofer's bill. The costs will be less unless the entire roof is removed and completely replaced, which I [somewhat] doubt will be recommended to you. And the interior repairs/painting (not just touch-up painting) shouldn't be too expensive - adding to the total overall cost. Let's say the total cost to properly fix your roof (replace some plywood and some roofing, re-hookup fans, etc). is $4k and the interior damage is $2k, which is $6k total. I would add $2k for my time and aggrevation, bringing the total up to $8k. I'd pay the original roofer $2k, which will bring your net cost to the $10k you expected to pay them for a "good" job. If they want to sue you for the unpaid difference (ex. $8k) they won't be able to do it in small claims court because the maximum limit is $3k. I seriously doubt they'll go after you for the balance because it would be too costly and time consuming...especially if they're told that you have numerous pictures of leaks, inferior workmanship, exterior and interior damage, documented reports from expert witnesses (other roofers), documented information on poor workmanship from experts (other roofers), etc. (Try to remember how many times you called them to come back out and repair/fix leaks, etc. and along with the exact dates...just for your records.) They'll almost certainly write-off the loss and maybe they'll use better employees that know what they're doing in the future...as well as change the way they do business.

At this time you want to know what other roofers think about the work you received...and what they can do to make it right...and how much it will cost you - all in writing.


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## Koot

Lamb,

One last thing before signing a contract with another roofer to proceed with replacing/repairing/fixing your roof "if" one or more of these new roofers believe the workmanship/installation and damage is due to inferior/shoddy workmanship...

To obtain an 'unbiased' expert opinion about the quality of your re-roofing job I suggest that you contact a home inspector to inspect 'only' your roof and the interior damage that was caused by roof leaks during and/or after the re-roofing you had done. If the home inspector agrees that your re-roofing job is inferior, then you'll have the best unbiased documentation possible and it will justify your belief (and other roofers' opinion) the reason why you contracted with a different roofer to correct the mess.

I have included the name, address and phone number of what I believe to be a well-established, respected and recommended home inspector in Huntsville...though any licensed home inspector would be fine. The costs for this roof inspection [only] should be a fraction of what a typical full house home inspection should be. He'll take numerous pictures from outside and inside the attic, as well as pictures of the interior ceiling water damage, and give you a professional and expert report. His report will be totally unbiased because he does not stand to potentially receive profitable work based on his inspection like a roofer might...

England Home Inspections, Inc (Robert "Matt" England)
PO Box 406
3905 Shamrock Drive Nw 
Huntsville, AL 35810-4033 
Office & Cell: (256) 429-8622
(256) 852-1950


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## lamb4god

Thanks so much, Koot, for lining all this up for me. It's all foreign to me, doesn't come easily. 

I did, in fact, sign a contract with the original roofer and even had them sign an amended contract in which they agreed to $2200 worth of interior damage to be deducted from the balance for roofing. Amended contracted also released us from using them to do the originally contracted interior work AND he agreed that all roofing and repairs would be done that day and he would allow us to inspect it before they left. Of course, the sieve-like leakage occured 9 days later - on the day we rec'd his bill implying that they were finished. He, of course, never came to let us know he was finished before they left and didn't allow us to inspect their work first.

I'd thought of getting a home inspector out but, in the middle of the mess, forgot about it. I'll contact your suggestion.

I've prepped an estimate/quote sheet for the companies and included a request on it that they document all the things you suggested. You are SO helpful!

I have a 6-page log of interaction between us and Budget Roofing, pictures, and a recording in which he acknowledges fault. Your assurances about his probable course of action are very helpful. Believe me. I've never done this before and was ready and able to go to court but not willing. Turns out I have access to the Alabama Recovery Fund only if I sue him in court. Joy of joys.


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## Koot

*Budget Roofing, Huntsville, AL

5 Complaints with BBB

Guarantee / Warranty Issues: 1 Problems with Product / Service: 4 *

Primary Contact: Mr. Randel *Whitt*
*Complaint Contact*: Mrs. Tina *Whitt*

Personally, I do not put much weight (emphasis) on BBB information because so few people (percentage-wise) ever complain to the BBB. Therefore when I do see any complaints I know they are not usually a quality company...even though the complaints are 'closed'.


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## Koot

lamb4god said:


> Thanks so much, Koot, for lining all this up for me. It's all foreign to me, doesn't come easily.
> 
> I did, in fact, sign a contract with the original roofer and even had them sign an amended contract in which they agreed to $2200 worth of interior damage to be deducted from the balance for roofing. Amended contracted also released us from using them to do the originally contracted interior work AND he agreed that all roofing and repairs would be done that day and he would allow us to inspect it before they left. Of course, the sieve-like leakage occured 9 days later - on the day we rec'd his bill implying that they were finished. He, of course, never came to let us know he was finished before they left and didn't allow us to inspect their work first.
> 
> I'd thought of getting a home inspector out but, in the middle of the mess, forgot about it. I'll contact your suggestion.
> 
> I've prepped an estimate/quote sheet for the companies and included a request on it that they document all the things you suggested. You are SO helpful!
> 
> I have a 6-page log of interaction between us and Budget Roofing, pictures, and a recording in which he acknowledges fault. Your assurances about his probable course of action are very helpful. Believe me. I've never done this before and was ready and able to go to court but not willing. Turns out I have access to the Alabama Recovery Fund only if I sue him in court. Joy of joys.


Okay. Sounds like you're accumulating needed information with as much documentation as possible, and personal knowledge. That's good!

Did you receive a roof shingle warranty from the roofer? Not a 10 year warranty that the roofer is supposed to honor, but a warranty on the shingles from the manufacturer... Do you know what brand roofing was installed, as well as the type, color, warranty, etc? Brand (e.g. GAF), Type (e.g. Three-Tab), Color (Charcoal), Warranty (25 yr, 30 year, etc.) and Warranty Information? You should have received two warranties - one warranty on the shingles themselves (warranting the shingles by the manufacturer, not the roofer), and one warranty from the roofer warranting his workmanship.


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## lamb4god

Koot said:


> Okay. Sounds like you're accumulating needed information with as much documentation as possible, and personal knowledge. That's good!
> 
> Did you receive a roof shingle warranty from the roofer? Not a 10 year warranty that the roofer is supposed to honor, but a warranty on the shingles from the manufacturer... Do you know what brand roofing was installed, as well as the type, color, warranty, etc? Brand (e.g. GAF), Type (e.g. Three-Tab), Color (Charcoal), Warranty (25 yr, 30 year, etc.) and Warranty Information? You should have received two warranties - one warranty on the shingles themselves (warranting the shingles by the manufacturer, not the roofer), and one warranty from the roofer warranting his workmanship.


Asked today's roofer for Brand, warranty length & info; forgot type (3-tab). Didn't receive ANY warranties from Budget Roofing. If I'd checked BBB before hiring them, if I'd known I was in charge of doing the homework, I don't believe I would have hired them. My husband had a co-worker raving about what a good job he did for his picky neighbor and, unfortunately, he got in a hurry to get things done. I planned to go through a service called "ServiceMagic.com" where you can read/post reviews like on Amazon. Also wanted to get referrals from neighbors who he wasn't having any luck catching right away. Then, he thought I was okay with him hiring this company on the spot after their estimate was slightly lower than the very first estimate I got (from a contractor recommended by MY friend whose husband is a building contractor). I should have objected. Taken by surprise. No excuse. Stupid on my part. I knew better. Plus, BR suggested we only replace felt "if it was needed". Foolishly agreed. I guess they count on customers like us not saying anything. Well, I will. It will go to the D.A., to Angie's List, and the BBB at the right time. I feel obligated to warn others.

Your suggestion (Henderson Roofing) is coming tomorrow. The caller sounded delightful. His grandfather and father were in the business and he asked how I'd found him. I didn't realize it was the one you suggested and erroneously said that I just looked for the oldest roofer in the phone book. He laughed and said he'd have to share that with his father who would appreciate that. Interestingly, they have a tiny ad in the phone book that says nothing about their over 30 years of experience. He sounded WELL ABLE to fix my problem and not daunted in the least. In fact, he seemed ready to go with me just stating I needed a reroof after a Budget Roofing job; didn't seem to need further info altho I told him anyway. Very sympathetic. Working with a bonifide professional would be such a relief. So far, so good. I will do my homework first, tho. (How did you find him, anyway?)


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## lamb4god

*Angie's List REVIEW (not yet posted)*
If you hire Budget Roofing, pray it doesn't rain. I feel obligated to warn the public.
1) *Not punctual* on start date. Arrived 1.5 weeks later than stated. Took weeks until their implied finish. 
2) Price was slightly lower (had to be adjusted up later due to insurance underestimation of roof s.f.) and warranty slightly longer but they make up for that by not properly felting and not giving you the shingle manufacturer's warranty so you have no assurances. *To train roofers, price should have been much lower.*
3) They used *unskilled, non-English speaking workers *who unnecessarily trashed our yard and cont'd working 2 hours in thunderstorm *causing addt'l. damage to FIVE ceilings in our home.* Plus, they left 3 ventilation pipes and surrounding holes - up to five inches across - completely uncovered (could see the sky clearly from my attic), both during the 2-hour-rainstorm and during the rainy night. *They had no tarps!* They did have a nice big roll of ice shield plastic they didn't see fit to use. *No supervisor* on site that day. 
4) The stated *24-hour emergency service is not true.* We called before 6pm the night of the above and got no callback. I called them following morning when they did respond.
5) After sending someone out to do repairs and install flanges around pipes and seal all including three LOUD roof ventilation *fans (improperly installed by square-cutting holes in roof*), they sent someone who didn't have a flashlight, borrowed and broke mine, and didn't fix the leaks since we discovered _more_ leaks in _same_ places twice more (to date). T*hird call* involved sieve-like quality of our attic during latest rainstorm - around six vent pipes and all 3 fans - rain on fan motors can't be good. His non-native-English-speaking supervisor arrived - again - to handle my complaints without being informed of why he was there. Communication was difficult and frustrating. He either doesn't do what he's told or _says_ he's done it and I find later that he hasn't.
6) I have to assume the *inadequate felt* (that was only to be installed if needed but _is_ marked to install on contract) failed during the rainstorm as the workers cavorted on my roof in the midst of the 2-hour storm.
7) Mr. Whitt did agree to compensate for the FIVE damaged rooms, but how do you compensate for the time and headaches involved in resolving this and in getting additional repairs? This should not have been necessary.
8) After all the above, rec'd a bill from BR asking for an adjusted amount (over $10,000) *payable in THREE DAYS or they'll charge me 1.5% interest*. Note that contract states 30 days. They are not knowledgeable about prudent, reasonable business practices. They should have included a note stating this bill should be submitted to our insurance company for compensation for the (previously discussed & agreed upon insurance adjustment). And let's give us more than 3 days to pay without exorbitant interest charges. Scare tactic? Distraction tactic? Roof leaked like a sieve around pipes and fans that night in rainstorm.
9) They *did not have the legally-req'd. AL Home Builders License* for jobs over $10,000. This license protects the consumer from unscrupulous contractors and gives you access to recovery funds. This is important for all, especially for large numbers of tornado victims who shouldn't be victimized again because a company is incompetent and/or overextended.
10) These are NOT professional, responsible contractors. *Professional roofers are prepared for rain.* Professionals hire skilled workers and supervise those who aren't yet fully trained and dependable. If something goes wrong, professionals carefully rectify all mistakes, diligently working to make certain nothing _else_ goes wrong (versus making a personal visit & making unkept promises to fix all in a day). Professionals do not act like teenagers who need to be monitored every step of the way.

I cannot recommend this company and will not hire them again. In describing this company, the following adjectives come to mind: unreliable, irresponsible, substandard, unprepared, unsupervised, unqualified, unlicensed, and unprofessional (and possibly unscrupulous) - conduct unbecoming to mature, responsible business professionals. They were apologetic, however, after the damage. They said several times, "This stuff happens when you're in business." 

I can say they are quick to keep coming out to fix leaks, but I wonder how long this will be necessary. Shouldn't it have been done the first time? The second time? Are the repairs done properly? Will they continue to come out so quickly after they are paid? Will my new roof last ten years? And, lastly, what leaks have I NOT been able to discover that will show up AFTER I do ceiling repairs? Needless to say, I have no confidence in the quality of their work. 
*Overall - **F*
*Price - *C
*Quality - *F
*Responsiveness - *D
*Punctuality - *C
*Professionalism - *F​


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## lamb4god

Wow. Great information on warranty stuff. You're awesome, I must say, and a God-send.


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## Koot

lamb4god said:


> Didn't receive ANY warranties from Budget Roofing.


I was afraid of that. And I doubt Budget Roofing ever planned on giving you a shingle warranty. Without knowing what brand, type, color, warranty of shingle you have it could easily become a major problem if you had to have a section replaced due to wind damage or a tree limb damaging the roof. Personally I would not want shingles on my roof that the roofer won't give me the warranty on, as well as all the information I would need to hopefully get a section replaced if required. That alone may be good reason to re-roof from scratch and have it done correctly.........

As far as what shingles a homeowner has installed - the brand, type, style, color, etc. is really up to you to choose. You can certainly ask for suggestions from a roofer, but I would choose one of the most popular brands (GAF, CertainTeed, Owens-Corning with Elk and Atlas a possibility) simply because they are known to be the best, sell the most, and have the best warranties. Each of those listed has a full selection of shingles ranging from economical three-tab shingles all the way up to architecural grade Lifetime shingles. Personally I would not want some off-brand shingle because it is unlikely equal to one of the top reputable and quality brands of shingles...and a small shingle manufacturer could be out of business when you need them most (warranty or replacement shingles). For all we know your roofer installed a shingle made in China or some real cheap (literally) off-brand.



lamb4god said:


> Your suggestion (Henderson Roofing) is coming tomorrow. The caller sounded delightful. His grandfather and father were in the business and he asked how I'd found him. I didn't realize it was the one you suggested and erroneously said that I just looked for the oldest roofer in the phone book. He laughed and said he'd have to share that with his father who would appreciate that. Interestingly, they have a tiny ad in the phone book that says nothing about their over 30 years of experience. He sounded WELL ABLE to fix my problem and not daunted in the least. In fact, he seemed ready to go with me just stating I needed a reroof after a Budget Roofing job; didn't seem to need further info altho I told him anyway. Very sympathetic. Working with a bonifide professional would be such a relief. So far, so good. I will do my homework first, tho. (How did you find him, anyway?)


I did some research on roofers in your area. I liked what I saw and found nothing but high praise for their quality and workmanship. By the way, the inspector I recommended has an and excellent reputation as well.

Good luck and keep me posted on what you learn (and get documented).


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## lamb4god

Koot said:


> II did some research on roofers in your area. I liked what I saw and found nothing but high praise for their quality and workmanship. By the way, the inspector I recommended has an and excellent reputation as well.
> 
> Good luck and keep me posted on what you learn (and get documented).


Will do, Koot. I'll just consider checking on them done and mark it off my rather long to-do list. May the Lord absolutely bless your socks off!


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## Koot

lamb4god said:


> *Angies List REVIEW (not yet posted)*
> 
> *Overall - **F*
> *Price - *C
> *Quality - *F
> *Responsiveness - *D
> *Punctuality - *C
> *Professionalism - *F​


Good work! I wouldn't use them after reading that! Not sure why you gave them a D and C on 'Responsiveness' and 'Puncuality' however.



lamb4god said:


> May the Lord absolutely bless your socks off!


:up:


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## lamb4god

I'm just not good at grading people. What would you give them?

As an aside, BR's email address is [email protected] (changed the last part). I found that rather amusing and thought you might appreciate it, too.


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## Koot

lamb4god said:


> They should have included a note stating this bill should be submitted to our insurance company for compensation for the (previously discussed & agreed upon insurance adjustment).


Tell me about your statements "submitted to our insurance company for compensation" and "agreed upon insurance adjustment" (noted and quoted above). Is this the roofer's insurance you're talking about (for damage the roofer caused to your interior) or your homeowner's insurance (for a claim due to wind/storm damage to your old roof)? Correct me if I am mistaken, but it was my understanding that you had the roof replaced because it was 'just time' and maybe had a few shingles missing due to receent storms that did not involve making an insurance claim with your insurance company.

I just want to make sure that your insurance company is not involved in paying for any portion of the re-roofing work. The reason this is somewhat important is because (if your insurance company is involved) your insurance company will likely have to pay two roofing companies (BR a reduced amount plus the new roofer to correct the mess), plus a painter to fix and paint the ceilings...less your policy's deductible. That would be a little difficult to explain to a broker or claims person at the insurance company, and more importantly they might find it troubling to do...unless they send you the insurance amount and let you devy up where (and how much) the money is paid. It would be far easier and much better if your insurance is not involved and the money is simply coming soley from you. The only advantage I see "if" your insurance company is involved and will be making the payment (less your deductible) is that your insurance company would be a buffer of sorts in any type of suit or claim brought against you by the inferior [BR] roofer.

All that said...the question is - Is your homeowner's insurance involved in the re-roofing of your house? If so, we can discuss the best way to handle this with them upfront before contracting with a new roofer (and painter) because it could get confusing changing/replacing roofers in terms of payment amounts, etc. But, if your homeowner's insurance is not involved, then it's a moot point because it would have no effect...


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## Koot

lamb4god said:


> I'm just not good at grading people. What would you give them?
> 
> As an aside, BR's email address is [email protected] (changed the last part). I found that rather amusing and thought you might appreciate it, too.


I'd rate them a big fat *F*

Hahaha!!!


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## lamb4god

BTW, I read in my "Roofing for Dummies" sort of book that an unscrupulous roofer will put a lien on your house for the shingles and supplies versus paying their supplier and asking for a down payment to do so. Is this something I should worry about?


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## lamb4god

Koot said:


> lamb4god;8009033
> Tell me about your statements "submitted to our insurance company for compensation" and "insurance adjustment" (noted and quoted above). Is this the roofer's insurance (for damage the roofer caused to your interior) or your homeowner's insurance (for a claim due to wind/storm damage to your old roof)? Correct me if I am mistaken said:
> 
> 
> 
> roofer.
> 
> All that said...the question is - Is your homeowner's insurance involved in the re-roofing of your house? If so, we can discuss the best way to handle this with them upfront before contracting with a new roofer (and painter) because it could get confusing changing/replacing roofers in terms of payment amounts, etc. But, if your homeowner's insurance is not involved, then it's a moot point because it would have no effect...
> 
> 
> 
> Homeowner insurance IS involved. We'd had prior hail damage and should have replaced it earlier, so it was pretty beat up and insurance adjuster agreed and cut us a check for an estimated amount with supporting paperwork to be supplied later.
> 
> Regarding the BR square footage adjustment for an extra 10 s.f. (not correctly calculated by insurance adjuster), BR asked for our insurance information, was supplied it, and submitted an adjustment claim he called an "Eagle View" adjustment he assured us was commonplace. In any case, the insurance company verbally agreed that total square footage needed to be adjusted up after an arial surveillance (sp?). They are aware there is a problem with the roofer.
> 
> Yes, insurance is going to be a mess and I had briefly also worried about how to handle that. Too many irons in the fire needed priority attention and dropped that ball. Help appreciated.
Click to expand...


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## Koot

lamb4god said:


> BTW, I read in my "Roofing for Dummies" sort of book that an unscrupulous roofer will put a lien on your house for the shingles and supplies versus paying their supplier and asking for a down payment to do so. Is this something I should worry about?


I wouldn't let that be a concern at this time because he wouldn't do that until all else fails to get his due payment - "due" meaning what remains after the roof is replaced/repaired correctly, the ceilings are repaired/painted, and a reasonable deduction for your time. He'll learn at some point before long if you elected to have a different roofer correct his mess and paint your ceilings...and that you will pay him after everything is wrapped-up.

Don't forget to include any damage to your gutters (dents/creases, etc.) caused by his employees.

I'm curious - did the roofing employees use a large magnet to pickup dropped nails or staples from your property when they removed your old roof? Did he verbally say (or did the contract state) that cleanup would be made? If you had to do more than just a little bit of cleanup around the house - deduct x amount more from BR's "due" payment for this work you had to do, which should not have been necessary...


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## Koot

lamb4god said:


> Koot said:
> 
> 
> 
> Homeowner insurance IS involved. We'd had prior hail damage and should have replaced it earlier, so it was pretty beat up and insurance adjuster agreed and cut us a check for an estimated amount with supporting paperwork to be supplied later.
> 
> Regarding the BR square footage adjustment for an extra 10 s.f. (not correctly calculated by insurance adjuster), BR asked for our insurance information, was supplied it, and submitted an adjustment claim he called an "Eagle View" adjustment he assured us was commonplace. In any case, the insurance company verbally agreed that total square footage needed to be adjusted up after an arial surveillance (sp?). They are aware there is a problem with the roofer.
> 
> Yes, insurance is going to be a mess and I had briefly also worried about how to handle that. Too many irons in the fire needed priority attention and dropped that ball. Help appreciated.
> 
> 
> 
> If the insurance company cut you a check then you should be okay because you can make payment however and to whomever you choose. Is the check made out to just you alone, or to both you and the roofer? Do you know how the adjustment amount (for extra shingles and labor) will be paid - to you alone, sent to the roofer, or made out to both you and the roofer?
Click to expand...


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## lamb4god

Koot said:


> Don't forget to include any damage to your gutters (dents/creases, etc.) caused by his employees.
> 
> I'm curious - did the roofing employees use a large magnet to pickup dropped nails or staples from your property when they removed your old roof? Did he verbally say (or did the contract state) that cleanup would be made? If you had to do more than just a little bit of cleanup around the house - deduct x amount more from BR's "due" payment for this work you had to do, which should not have been necessary...


Yes - they tried to hide the gutters from me, I believe. I'd SAID & Whitt had agreed that I should be allowed to use their ladders to eyeball my gutters before they left. Instead, they left without notifying me that they were finished and, therefore, without allowing me to see what condition the gutters (I had to point out to them to reinstall properly) were in. Suspicious, I thought. I was curious about the condition of the screens (they had installed in a catawampus fashion in places and left out completely in others). Also wondered about debris they had agreed to remove from gutters. I finally did get to see one section when supervisor came out to obstinsably (sp?) repair my leaking vents and fans. I saw very twisted plastic-feeling gutter grates. Super said that was probably due to age of my roof but admitted his men probably put alot of weight on them, too, while roofing. Husband said let it go. I like your idea better; should be counted. I haven't seen dents but wasn't looking closely. Will ask new roofers to look for me, too.

They did have clean-up and magnet pickup written in the contract and they did do that. They also managed not to destroy our bushes. The trash, tho, before I had a fit, was unbelievable. I had to insist they get up a giant glob of gum from driveway; still have gum in a flower pot. They even left their own leather tool belts and other tools out in the rain. Water bottles and empty cans were everywhere. They did pick it up. More could be said, but they did not leave a good impression. Seemed noteworthy to me that they never placed their sign in our yard - rather indicative of what they expected to happen here.

Husband said extra pickup was shingles, trash, soda cans and took about 10 minutes.


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## lamb4god

Koot said:


> lamb4god said:
> 
> 
> 
> Is the check made out to just you alone, or to both you and the roofer? Do you know how the adjustment amount (for extra shingles and labor) will be paid - to you alone, sent to the roofer, or made out to both you and the roofer?
> 
> 
> 
> The original insurance check was made out just to us and we had the freedom to choose whoever we wanted to do the work. We just send in the invoices later. The secondardy adjustment check will be to us alone also. We have submitted no invoices yet.
> 
> I felt their bill was a scare tactic to get us to pay before the insurance company had even okay'd the amount they had requested. When the bill was rec'd, we hadn't heard yet from our insurance company as to whether the full amount requested and billed had been accepted.
Click to expand...


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## Koot

lamb4god said:


> Koot said:
> 
> 
> 
> The original insurance check was made out just to us and we had the freedom to choose whoever we wanted to do the work. We just send in the invoices later. The secondard adjustment check will be to us alone also. We have submitted no invoices yet.
> 
> 
> 
> Excellent. The insurance company will not be a problem then.
> 
> Just save all your invoices, estimates/bids/quotes and correspondence so you can give your insurance company a history and timeline of what took place and why changes had to be made...none of which affects the insurance amount that was paid directly to you.
Click to expand...


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## lamb4god

Koot said:


> I'd rate them a big fat *F*
> 
> Hahaha!!!


F it is!


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## Koot

It sounds like you are ready to get some expert opinions and written bids to repair the mess or replace the entire roof (which is probably unnecessary). I suspect the new roofer will know exactly what brand, type and color BR used and will buy whatever he needs to makes the repairs. The biggest area will be the attic fan plywood areas where BR did not follow installation directions and a square cutout was made instead of a 14" circle. And chances are the new roofer will tidy up or replace the stub-up flanges and anything else he sees not conforming to a good roof job. I do not know what can be done about obtaining a warranty on the shingles...but I would push BR to give you that information if the new roofer only does a [rather] minimal amount work (compared to a total re-roofing job) to correct his mess. As for a roofer's warranty - I do not think you would ever want BR to perform any warranty work for you anyway, so maybe you can get the new roofer to give you a total roof roofer's warranty, which is basically to warrant workmanship only.

It also sounds like you're ready to get the inspectors opinion and written report, which will add credence to your decision to use a different roofer to correct the mess made by BR. And this report will also stand well if BR makes a claim against you.

Once you get the estimates, opinions and inspection you will be better able to make a solid decision on what is best done to things straightened out.


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## lamb4god

Yes, I plan to call your recommended home inspector tomorrow.

Really hoping, at this point, that everything can just be wiped off and started over. Not getting my hopes up, tho, since you don't think it's likely. At least maybe I won't have to deal with BR anymore and most problems will be corrected. If I was to bet, tho, I'd bet there's little or no felt under our new roof. Not happy about that; also like you, I expect it will be difficult to get shingle warranty from BR but will push for it before sending them their balance. Good news about new roofer probably knowing shingle stuff.

Getting tired now. Making stupid mistakes. Good night, Koot. You're a treasure!


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## Koot

On a separate yet related topic, you may want to ask the new roofer that will be giving you estimates/bids how much they would charge to add passive ridge-top vents and do away with the powered attic fans, which you say are noisy and no-doubt add to your electric bill, especially during the summer months. I would ask for a separate (optional) price for adding ridge vents. I suspect the new roofers will suggest replacing the plywood where the squre cutouts were made anyway. You should also want the new roofers to check your existing soffit vents to make sure they are adequate...and if not include the price to add sufficient soffit vents. Passive attic ventilation (e.g. ridge-top vents) is very popular and does a nice job. How do I know? It's been over 100 degrees most days since early June here in Dallas with intense (boiling) sun. I saw 114 degrees on my car's outdoor temperature guage yesterday and I was traveling on a concrete highway at 60mph. I see 101~107 on a regular basis. It's HOT here...and passive ridge-top vents with adaquate soffit vents work well for me here as well as other properties I own. Anyway, you will not have any noise and no additional electricity cost with ridge-top vents...and no chance of rain water penetration or vermin coming in either.


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## lamb4god

Great idea, once again, Koot. I'll do that regarding getting additional quotes on vents. Man! Texas heat sounds unbearable! But, you've made your point well. It rarely hits 100 around here, so they should be more than adequate and save us money, too.


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## hewee

lamb4god said:


> Thank you Kewee. I'm TRYING.


You're welcome.

Hoot has given you all you need so no need to have more then one tell you things.
I will add call the phone company to get a phone log and or if you can go online and get all calls listed.

I use comcast and have a phone that runs off the cable and all calls to here and from here are logged and are listed for I think 3 months and it lists you print out the phone log.
So check to see if you can get it online. If so that will be better because you just sigh up and be able to get the log any time and can keep going back and saving the log in case you want to keep a log for the months ahead in case they keep calling you for money etc your have a record of all calls.

May all go well.

Great info Koot
The passive ridge-top vents so good and make no noise.


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## Koot

lamb4god said:


> Great idea, once again, Koot. I'll do that regarding getting additional quotes on vents. Man! Texas heat sounds unbearable! But, you've made your point well. It rarely hits 100 around here, so they should be more than adequate and save us money, too.


It's really not unbearable at all. At least the humidity is somewhat low when it gets near 100 degrees or higher here, usually in the 20% range. That helps the comfort level because even though it can get very hot here you are not soaking wet due to the lower humidity we usually have. Further east the humidity levels are much higher and you can feel like you've just stepped out of the shower even with temperatures in the low 80s. Personally I would rather it be 100 degrees and 25% humidity rather than 85 degrees and much higher humidity. The key here is seeking shade as often as possible and staying out of the direct sun because it is so intense. Being a golfer that's hard to do if you hit the ball down the center of the fairway where there is no shade! We have normal outdoor activities going on all the time even when the temperatures are over 100 degrees - school sports, joggers, runners, bicyclists, landscaping, roofing, etc.


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## Koot

Lamb,

To help you make a decision on what to do about your roof (with reference to possibly changing roofers), you want to know what all these experts (roofers, home inspector) would do if it was their house. (Note: Before they can give you their opinion, on what they would do if it was their house, it is important for them to know that you have not already paid for the shoddy re-roofing job and would deduct whatever expense you incur using a new roofer from BR's payment.)

Therefore, the question you have for each of the experts is: *Knowing what you [now] know, if this was 'your' house - what would you do?* Their responses should be valuable to you in making a decision going-forward.


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## Koot

With respect to the incorrectly installed powered roof ventilators (where a square cutout was made in the plywood sheeting); this is likely the primary cause for the loudness you hear. The reason why is because the ventilator's thin sheet metal mounting flange is more exposed to movement and will vibrate, thus making more noise. (It would be like holding a loose piece of sheet metal in one hand and hitting it with the other - it would vibrate easily like a hand saw blade or tuning fork.) However, if the ventilator was mounted correctly, over a 14" diameter round cutout in the plywood (as the instructions call for) with just the inside diameter throat of the fan's venturi opening fitting over the round opening in the plywood and full mounting flange laying on the surrounding plywood (and secured properly), the sheet metal flange is far less likely to vibrate and make such a high level of noise.

I strongly suspect if you went into the attic while a ventilator fan was operating and applied pressure to the exposed mounting flange outside the venturi opening (simulating the mounting flange being [more] properly secured) the noise would drastically be reduced. Hopefully the home inspector and roofers you have coming out can easily and quickly confirm this for you...because it's just a matter of applying some finger pressure (or pressure from a flashlight or hammer handle) to the ventilator's mounting flange, which [the mounting flange] should not be exposed (able to be viewed) from inside the attic.

Also, whenever there is an abnormal amount of vibration (vibration greater than the amount if the ventilator fans had been mounted correctly per the manufacturer's instruction) there is a much greater likelihood that the roofing nails or staples that are in close proximity to the source of vibration will become loose and back-out. In addition, this abnormal vibration can cause the shingles to crack, split, and loose their granules, which degrades the life of the shingles and can also become a source of leaks over time.


----------



## Koot

Lamb - Any updates or news?


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## Koot

Lamb,

I saw your message about one roofer not wanting to get involved in a possible law suit. Have you had any other roofers come out and give you their opinion and estimate/quote? How about the home inspector?

If you could just get one or two roofers to give you a written opinion saying that the re-roofing job you had done was inferior due to 1, 2, 3, etc., that is all you need. Same with the home inspector. Then, you could contract with a new roofer to replace/repair your roof without feeling the need to disclose anything that may lead the new roofer to think there might be a possible law suit. In other words, all you need is one or two documented opinions from experts...whether those particular experts are the ones that you may choose to ultimately do the work or not.

From your lack of updates [messages here] it appears you are unable thus far to obtain any written [documented] opinions from experts. Hope that is not the case.


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## lamb4god

Hey, Koot. Sorry I haven't been on in a while. You gave me lots of homework and I just got caught up! Plus, I've been a little reluctant to post here as I actually forwarded your comments and a link to this forum about proper installation of vent fans! So, anything said here could potentially get back to them. 

I've had 6 roofers out, trying only to have long established roofers in. The first was rather a bust because, altho the phone book said the business was over 30 years old, the young man said that HE'D only owned it for one year. (He was the one unwilling to get involved in a law suit. I wouldn't really want to include him in the results anyway.)

The others are more interesting. 
1-Only one wasn't 30+ years in the business. This one was recommended by someone at Lowe's and he, too, doesn't want to get involved in a lawsuit but did recommend replacing the roof versus repairing and gave me a written estimate for that. 

2-Henderson (the one you recommended) was all OVER my roof and seemed very interested in helping us. I'm waiting for his estimate but he said things like poor materials, poor installation, fans may be installed upside down. They took lots of pictures. Both the son and the father came out. Business has been in the family for generations. Very knowledgeable, willing to help.

3-After calling the home inspector, he recommended I contact a Christian former Marine roofer who he uses when he makes his reports. That one was excellent as well and impressed me as knowledgeable and helpful and willing to help. (Home inspector said he'd come if the attorney he recommended I talk to recommended that he come out.)

4-Another long-standing roofing company owner came out, tho VERY busy, and his written estimate is pending. 

5-An unusual longstanding company owner came and recommended repairs thru another company but he wasn't willing to take on the job. He did note, however, as others had that he couldn't detect any evidence of ice shield having been put down in the roof valleys and, if so, the roof will only last about 3 years. Also noted the shingles would blow off in a good windstorm, not properly secured.

All in all the going opinion seems to be to replace the roof entirely. I don't believe we have a proper $10,000 roof over our heads.

Called an attorney who was very helpful and reassuring but whom I hope I won't have to use.

Finalized my Angie's List post on Budget Roofing and posted it, dropping their A grade down to a B.

Called my insurance adjustor today and apprised him of the mess, asking his advice about how to proceed after outlining my concerns about BR, summerizing the problems and lack of licenses, roofers opinions. He's going to get back to me after talking to his boss about whether or not they can get us more money for the damages caused by BR.

It rained Saturday and, after all the above, I didn't have the sense to go check the attic to see if all leaks are stopped. I'll have to wait for another storm.

Meanwhile, you guys have made us look awfully smart. I take none of the credit. Thank you so much for caring and helping and holding up my arms. I was so very overwhelmed. I've never put a roof on a house, much less gone through all this. You've made a terrible ordeal tolerable.

Again, sorry for the ""radio" silence.


----------



## lamb4god

Koot said:


> Lamb - Any updates or news?


 I just checked in to update you guys and found these posts. I hadn't been checking lately, so busy and upset (actually cried on 2 roofers, bless their hearts.) Earlier, new posts were going to my email inbox so I knew when there was a new post, but they haven't been showing up in email.


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## lamb4god

Koot said:


> With respect to the incorrectly installed powered roof ventilators (where a square cutout was made in the plywood sheeting); this is likely the primary cause for the loudness you hear. The reason why is because the ventilator's thin sheet metal mounting flange is more exposed to movement and will vibrate, thus making more noise. (It would be like holding a loose piece of sheet metal in one hand and hitting it with the other - it would vibrate easily like a hand saw blade or tuning fork.) However, if the ventilator was mounted correctly, over a 14" diameter round cutout in the plywood (as the instructions call for) with just the inside diameter throat of the fan's venturi opening fitting over the round opening in the plywood and full mounting flange laying on the surrounding plywood (and secured properly), the sheet metal flange is far less likely to vibrate and make such a high level of noise.
> 
> I strongly suspect if you went into the attic while a ventilator fan was operating and applied pressure to the exposed mounting flange outside the venturi opening (simulating the mounting flange being [more] properly secured) the noise would drastically be reduced. Hopefully the home inspector and roofers you have coming out can easily and quickly confirm this for you...because it's just a matter of applying some finger pressure (or pressure from a flashlight or hammer handle) to the ventilator's mounting flange, which [the mounting flange] should not be exposed (able to be viewed) from inside the attic.
> 
> Also, whenever there is an abnormal amount of vibration (vibration greater than the amount if the ventilator fans had been mounted correctly per the manufacturer's instruction) there is a much greater likelihood that the roofing nails or staples that are in close proximity to the source of vibration will become loose and back-out. In addition, this abnormal vibration can cause the shingles to crack, split, and loose their granules, which degrades the life of the shingles and can also become a source of leaks over time.


Not good news that. Will pass on the info if & when we have the reluctant home inspector out.

If we wind up replacing the roof, I'm hoping it won't be too much more to go ahead and upgrade the ventilation and do away with those troublesome fans. Getting separate estimates on that along with the other, as you suggested. Husband isn't thrilled with the idea, tho, the dollars just seem to keep mounting. First roofer was supposedly cheaper because he took shortcuts. However, more than one roofer said that, given his methods and inferior materials, his price sounded high to them. Regardless, better materials and better roofers will cost more and this is, of course, a little uncomfortable but in the long run preferable as we will have the peace of knowing we have a proper ~$10,000 roof over our heads (hopefully, with improved ventilation). Thanks to you guys, God lit our path every step of the way and continues to do so.


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## Koot

Lamb,

Thanks for the update. Sounds like you've taken the bull by the horns and are in full control now, doing all the right things. :up:

Keep us posted...the best you can.


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## lamb4god

Thanks to you showing me how! Insurance adjustor just said, "Wow." Then he was properly outraged by the roofer's comment that "these things happen in the roofing business." You have us so squared away that some people fear that I'm being too hard on BR! I can't help that the facts look bad. If BR didn't operate that way, it couldn't be said. Those folks, tho, don't see me when I'm weak, tired, overwhelmed, in tears. They just see the results of hours and hours of work and research - much of it garnered from you! But, yes, facts are lining up so we can get a good picture of our options and the best path to take.


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## lamb4god

The Home Inspector you suggested is coming Monday.


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## lamb4god

Had to call the 3 top roofers again today to see what the status is on their estimates. I'd thought they were going to go home and prep a report for me with their estimates but didn't hear back from ANY of them after more than a week. It was very difficult to find longstanding, reputable roofers. I sure hope and pray they come through for me. Henderson even said something about he was unsure that I still wanted to work with them since he thought I was getting estimates from a bunch of roofers. Just trying to get three really good estimates. At this point, I only have ONE estimate (out of six!), and it isn't from one of the top three. I don't understand. They are very busy. Makes me nervous, tho, that they may choose not to work with such a difficult case. Nothing's easy, is it?


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## Koot

lamb4god said:


> Had to call the 3 top roofers again today to see what the status is on their estimates. I'd thought they were going to go home and prep a report for me with their estimates but didn't hear back from ANY of them after more than a week. It was very difficult to find longstanding, reputable roofers. I sure hope and pray they come through for me. Henderson even said something about he was unsure that I still wanted to work with them since he thought I was getting estimates from a bunch of roofers. Just trying to get three really good estimates. At this point, I only have ONE estimate (out of six!), and it isn't from one of the top three. I don't understand. They are very busy. Makes me nervous, tho, that they may choose not to work with such a difficult case. Nothing's easy, is it?


Your problem probably stems from giving the roofers too much information. Telling a roofer you're getting a 'bunch' of estimates lowers their expectations of being the chosen roofer. On the other hand, telling a roofer you expect a competitive bid/estimate while conveying that you have knowledge of what it should cost you is much easier for them to swallow and they give you a higher degree of respect. (If they ask you what you think it should cost - just tell them that you'll keep that information to yourself and re-iterate that you hope their bid will be close to your figure.)

As we've discussed a few times before, having knowledge puts you in a strong position but that does not mean you should share (or necessarily provide) certain information that may prevent or inhibit you from achieving your end goal. Other examples of sharing too much information (other than telling the roofers that you are getting a 'bunch' of estimates) is mentioning anything related to the possibility of a potential lawsuit, or not paying BR, or [exactly] why you would like a brief written note that BR's work is inferior, etc., etc.

Treat (and protect) certain aspects of your knowledge much like you would if you were selling your house. You have an asking price and you also have another figure which is the absolute lowest price you would accept from a buyer. You wouldn't tell the buyer what your lowest price is...at least not until you received the buyer's bid and maybe counter-offered a time of two. Neither would you tell your real estate salesperson what the lowest bid you'd accept because he/she may divulge the information to the buyer's agent to help make the sale. As you can see, sharing this type of knowledge (you have) is detrimental and can be harmful to achieving your end goal, which in my example is getting the best price for your house. Hopefully you get the point...

The more that you can convey (to the people you're dealing with) that you are knowledgeable, in-control, in-charge, have an opinion, and ready to make a decision and do business...the more respect you'll get from the people you've asked for their bid. Remember, these people were asked by you to offer a bid for their services in hopes they will be chosen by you to perform the work you need. Share only what knowledge you must to get what you want...


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## lamb4god

I was trying to hold my cards close to my chest. Unfortunately for two roofers, that chest was heaving with tears. I had to reassure them that my brain cells were still present though invisible at the moment. (I've had a 7-month-long ear infection with fever that, embarrassingly, causes me to become emotional at the most inopportune moments!) I didn't tell them I planned to get more bids, but that, I would think, would be obvious. I wouldn't want to make the same mistake twice (by not getting enough bids to know what is going on), plus I would need to be able to support my decision to either reroof or repair using another roofer (and support it legally, if it comes to that).

So, my preparations are simply freaking people out. My Estimate Form is very detailed (thanks to you), plus I have a thick folder containing copies of shingle info, warranty info, roofer info (got to do the homework!), Budget Roofing log + Angie's List review for BR. I DID give them a copy of my BR review for Angie's List because it is a summary of what I've had to endure and why they (the new roofer) has been called. I am, naturally, upset with all this. I am doing the work but, unlike in a movie where my Erin Brokevitch-like character smoothly fights for right, I most unsmoothly, un-hero-like, fell apart in embarrassing places. I thought the men handled it very well, tho. I was impressed until I didn't get an estimate later as promised. I believe they learned I was contacting "a bunch" of roofers from lunch chatter in the community. (So, I'm being served up for lunch!)

So, here I am taking a long walk through a minefield in very unfamiliar territory and my potential allies are all of the opinion that I don't want their expertise and experience and that, if I do, I will ONLY call them for an opinion regarding the potential placement of the mines! I had thought that they simply weren't up to taking on this problem-infested project with potential legal ramifications. I hadn't foreseen this development.

Frustrating! George Washington said in 1790: "To be prepared for war is one of the most effectual means of preserving peace." I don't want war. And peace will be a long time coming. But at least now, after going through most of a 17-point To Do List, I do know where most of the mines are!

One more thing. I have to spell out to people that I HAVE a battle before me. At this point, I can only choose my battlefield. I can either keep the lousy roof BR gave us and fight to get them out to fix problems for the 3 to 10 years it will last OR I can fight for my rights and get a GOOD roofer out to fix the problems and do all that is necessary to make that happen (and have peace of mind much sooner). I HAVE a battle. I have no choice. All I can do is prepare my weapons and choose the field.


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## lamb4god

Koot said:


> Other examples of sharing too much information (other than telling the roofers that you are getting a 'bunch' of estimates) is mentioning anything related to the possibility of a potential lawsuit, or not paying BR, or [exactly] why you would like a brief written note that BR's work is inferior, etc., etc.


Henderson - the roofers you found and recommended - were the most impressive of all six potential new roofers (pending receipt of their bid, of course). When I called this morning, the younger owner said he'd have to check with his father about whether or not they were still interested in doing business with me (same one that divulged that he thought I was getting "a bunch of other estimates and not interested in doing business with them"). He asked if I'd paid BR and I said I had not. He asked what I planned to do with them. I DID tell him I planned to pay them whatever was left over after I'd done repairs. They are in this business and my options should have been much more obvious to them than it was to me originally, in my opinion. This is a personal minefield, as I've said. After your guidance, tho, this seems like a very obvious course of action.


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## Koot

lamb4god said:


> Henderson - the roofers you found and recommended - were the most impressive of all six potential new roofers (pending receipt of their bid, of course). When I called this morning, the younger owner said he'd have to check with his father about whether or not they were still interested in doing business with me (same one that divulged that he thought I was getting "a bunch of other estimates and not interested in doing business with them"). He asked if I'd paid BR and I said I had not. He asked what I planned to do with them. I DID tell him I planned to pay them whatever was left over after I'd done repairs. They are in this business and my options should have been much more obvious to them that it was to me originally, in my opinion. This is a personal minefield, as I've said. After your guidance, tho, this seems like a very obvious course of action.


Hopefully Henderson knows [now] that they are seriously being considered to [actually] do work for you...and not being used for just an expert opinion to go against BR legally or to lower the price for their inferior job. Obviously Henderson wants to only spend time and effort to obtain work that is both beneficial and profitable to them, not to [just] aid someone where they do not have a chance of obtaining work and making a profit. They may have mistakenly felt they didn't stand a chance of getting any work from you, and you only wanted their expert opinion in writing to support your belief of inferior work by BR.

Depending on Henderson's decision concerning whether to give you a bid/estimate (which may be too late now if they elect not to offer you a bid/estimate), I would assure Henderson (if they are only reluctant to bid, but haven't decided not to bid yet) that they [Henderson] would be paid-in-full immediately for a satisfactory job that meets the agreed to contract between you and Henderson. And equally important is to assure that they [Henderson] would not be involved in any legal haggling that may come about from BR not being fully paid for the inferior job they did.

Like I said; wait to see if Henderson will give you a bid, or if they elect not to bid. If they elect not to bid maybe you can change their mind by your assurance that they will get paid immediately and not be involved in any potential legal hassle between you and BR.


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## lamb4god

Koot said:


> Like I said; wait to see if Henderson will give you a bid, or if they elect not to bid. If they elect not to bid maybe you can change their mind by your assurance that they will get paid immediately and not be involved in any potential legal hassle between you and BR.


Once again, good advice, Koot. You have a very calming effect on me. That advice, too, seems obvious but, in the midst of the heat of things, it is ANYTHING but obvious. Maybe they are just reassessing their original bid in light of the competition now. I hope that's the case. Just have to wait and see.


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## lamb4god

Koot said:


> And equally important is to assure that they [Henderson] would not be involved in any legal haggling that may come about from BR not being fully paid for the inferior job they did.


Since BR wasn't properly licensed (missing 2 licenses and a work site permit), legal action is unlikely. I've only consulted an attorney to learn how to get a Lien Waiver if necessary. I'd never known before that an unscrupulous company could actually place a lien on your property for unpaid supplies. At this point, BR would be unwise to do so as I hold a lot of cards I hope never to have to use. Anyone hearing this story doesn't blame me for getting someone out to do the job correctly. Most people expect to have a $10,000 roof after paying $10,000. And most of us assume that those we hire are legally licensed to do the work they do. Regardless, I do feel that legal action is very unlikely, but I have a Home Inspector coming out Monday to give an UNBIASED report on BR's work just to be safe. That should be all that is needed if it does become a legal battle.


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## Koot

lamb4god said:


> Since BR wasn't properly licensed (missing 2 licenses and a work site permit), legal action is unlikely. I've only consulted an attorney to learn how to get a Lien Waiver if necessary. I'd never known before that an unscrupulous company could actually place a lien on your property for unpaid supplies. At this point, BR would be unwise to do so as I hold a lot of cards I hope never to have to use. Anyone hearing this story doesn't blame me for getting someone out to do the job correctly. Most people expect to have a $10,000 roof after paying $10,000. And most of us assume that those we hire are legally licensed to do the work they do. Regardless, I do feel that legal action is very unlikely, but I have a Home Inspector coming out Monday to give an UNBIASED report on BR's work just to be safe. That should be all that is needed if it does become legal.


Has BR contacted you about paying their statement?

I would say it's unlikely too that BR will take any action...especially if they know you're holding a Royal Flush in your [card] hand. That said, 'if' BR contacts you (and sooner or later they will of course) be very sure not to share with them all your knowledge and everything you've done. (This is much like my previous post in which we talked about not divulging or sharing everything.)

When BR contacts you just let them know that you are not satisfied with their work and it is now beyond giving them further opportunities to make things right...and that there are some serious issues where you have involved a number of experts (but do not share what the serious issues are, nor who the experts are that you have involved). This puts you in control of the situation and keeps him guessing, and makes him less likely to take any action at this time. If BR asks you if you intend to pay him - let him know that you intend to pay 'after' your roof installation is resolved and that you will be in touch with him (but don't tell him what or how it will be resolved...only that BR's opportunity to resolve the matter is no longer a possibility).

When it comes time to talk with BR (when they contact you), be confident in what you tell him because you know you are doing the correct, fair and just thing.


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## lamb4god

Koot said:


> Has BR contacted you about paying their statement?
> 
> When BR contacts you just let them know that you are not satisfied with their work and it is now beyond giving them further opportunities to make things right...and that there are some serious issues where you have involved a number of experts (but do not share what the serious issues are, nor who the experts are that you have involved). This puts you in control of the situation and keeps him him guessing, and makes him less likely to take any action at this time. If BR asks you if you intend to pay him - let him know that you intend to pay 'after' your roof installation is resolved and that you will be in touch with him (but don't tell him what or how it will be resolved...only that BR's opportunity to resolve the matter is no longer a possibility).
> 
> When it comes time to talk with BR (when they contact you), be confident in what you tell him because you know you are doing the correct, fair and just thing.


No, BR hasn't contacted us about payment after sending that first statement payable in 3 days. I will be ready when they do - in the way you suggest (thank you, again. You're priceless!).

And, yes, thank you for noticing, I AM trying to do the fair, just, and correct thing in the sight of God and all men. Yes, I get upset, but that doesn't mean I'm out for blood. On top of doing this while not exactly healthy, I resent having to do it at all. It shouldn't have been necessary. Most other folks don't seem to understand that, give me the benefit of the doubt, or understand that I'm not superwoman (more like Wimpy Woman) and can't do this with unabashed and unruffled diplomacy and finese. I'm a real woman, not built for battle. I didn't choose to go to war and, if given a choice, I wouldn't go. But, here I am. And I'll take my stand. (Thank you so much for not assuming the worst about me. You absolutely never did. You just gave me all I need to stand back up after being knocked down and run over.)


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## Koot

You're doing fine...and learning a new talent. No different than a baby learning to crawl or walk, or public speaking.

Trust me, after this is over, finished and done (and it will eventually be) you will feel real good about yourself and your abilities to handle similar matters. I suspect there are times during this matter that you already feel good about your competence level.


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## lamb4god

Um, yes, but I'm afraid to smile too much. I keep expecting the breath to get knocked out of me. Some people's reactions were hurtful, too. I was a little dense. I asked for help and got judgment instead (with them assuming vengence is the name of the game). No help from any quarter except for you. Thanks for holding my hand.


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## Koot

lamb4god said:


> Um, yes, but I'm afraid to smile too much. I keep expecting the breath to get knocked out of me. Some people's reactions were hurtful, too. I was a little dense. I asked for help and got judgment instead (with them assuming vengence is the name of the game). No help from any quarter except for you. Thanks for holding my hand.


You are welcome...


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## lamb4god

Koot said:


> You're doing fine...and learning a new talent. No different than a baby learning to crawl or walk, or public speaking.
> 
> Trust me, after this is over, finished and done (and it will eventually be) you will feel real good about yourself and your abilities to handle similar matters. I suspect there are times during this matter that you already feel good about your competence level.


Interesting thought, that - learning a new skill.

Regarding pride about competence - it rises up sometimes but I beat it back down. First of all, I have no right to be proud because - at risk of sounding like Sgt. Schultz - I know NOTHING. Everything came from you, and strength and grace to get through it comes from God. I also believe God is using you! Anyhow, God hates pride. He says that he gives grace to the humble and He resists the proud, so I try to stay humble - something not hard for me given my life. And I know without doubt that I can do nothing without God. On the other hand, if God is for me nobody can stand against me. So, I'm trying real hard to keep God on my side. And, if that isn't enough, I've been crying long and regularly. That, in itself, is humbling.


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## lamb4god

You've heard that song that goes, "Lord, it's hard to be humble when you're perfect in every way." Well, I'm the OPPOSITE of that.  Besides, it ain't over till it's over and I'm also the opposite of an optimist. I have very little I could be proud of anyway - least of all choosing to hire Budget Roofing.


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## lamb4god

Just found a message on my phone left at 7am today from an "unsolicited roofer" who said he'd heard I had a roofing situation and was just going to be in my neighborhood today and would like to take a look at my roof! Not on your life!


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## Koot

lamb4god said:


> Just found a message on my phone left at 7am today from an "unsolicited roofer" who said he'd heard I had a roofing situation and was just going to be in my neighborhood today and would like to take a look at my roof! Not on your life!


It would be interesting to know where he 'heard' that this. Ask him who the person/company was that told him about you. You never know, maybe one of the roofers that weren't interested told him about your situation and suggested that he call you. If that's the case, then I'd say it's probably okay to get his bid/estimate and opinion...if you're lacking enough bids/estimates and opinions.


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## lamb4god

Yes, it would be interesting to know - especially since whoever it was didn't mind sharing my cell phone number. I'm suspicious. Could be either a fly-by-night operation just looking for more hard-to-deal-with business (hard to imagine that in this tornado-damage-infested area) OR it's someone on Budget Roofing's team. Or he could be completely innocent and somebody I called has so much business that he doesn't mind sharing.

Contacted one company by email this morning and shared (via cut and paste) what you said about the fans and how they might cause damage to the surrounding shingles with an inquiry about whether they were still interested in working for me and well wishes and understanding if they weren't. He responded that he would stop by early in the week and do one more measurement before giving me his bid. A second one said the same plus I have the home inspector coming. I just hope they don't all collide and, as usual, I pray the Lord gives me strength!


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## Koot

Hopefully both roofers will do as they say, but not come at the same time...or same day, which is somewhat doubtful. It's perfectly okay if one of the [two] roofers are there at the same time as the home inspector. In fact, it could actually be a good thing (if a roofer and the home inspector show up at the same time) because they may share their thoughts and opinions with one another about the roofing job you got and help the home inspector with his inspection report. Again, doubtful - as far as timing.


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## lamb4god

True, that part about comparing notes with the Home Inspector. But my roofers seem to be a little weirded out anyway, so I worry. Most likely nothing to worry about. I'll just make assurances and remind them that information is helpful and more information is more helpful and, of course, I am serious about hiring somebody.


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## lamb4god

Okay. What on earth is going on? No roofers showed up and even the home inspector didn't show. He was due at 4pm and here it is after 6pm with no phone call or anything. There was a heavy rainstorm at 4pm, so I thought he was waiting for it to abate before coming and wasn't too concerned at first. But, he didn't show up at all, didn't answer his cell and didn't call.


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## Koot

Unfortunately that's not all that unusual with a lot of people in the roofing trade. However, the home inspector not showing up surprises me. I'd give them a call and ask why they didn't show as promised to see what they say. Tell them you made special arrangements to be at home. Ask them when (for certain) you can expect to see them. If/when they say what day and time frame they'll come - tell them that you expect them to be there...


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## lamb4god

Yes, the home inspector surprises me, too. I called both his office number and his cell number (both of which he answered immediately before) and left messages on both. No response yet. I did my homework on him this weekend and found one unhappy customer who complained that he didn't have a license, etc. Well, he has one now. Still, he may not want to deal with someone who is complaining about a roofer working without a license. All the same, why didn't he just say so up front? Strange. Same with the roofers. Yes, this is a messy case but I explained that on the phone before they ever came out. Why waste my time and theirs if they didn't want to get involved and weren't up for it to begin with? It's a good thing I'm not in a hurry. I'll just call another inspector tomorrow if I don't hear from him first thing tomorrow.

I DID get a bid from a roofer today but I had to call him twice to get it and then it wasn't what I asked for. Frustrating and doesn't make a good impression. I started out thinking I'd have at least 3 good roofers to choose from. Now, I don't know. I will just slow down and stop rushing this. It would have been nice to choose someone right away, but it can certainly wait.


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## Koot

In the future do not explain on the phone when setting up appointments anything about the roofing problems you're dealing with. 

Roofer - I'd like to setup an appointment to have my roof checked for possible repair or re-roofing. Name, address, day, time...


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## lamb4god

Probably best. This whole mess is frustrating. One lady I spoke with said she calls any type of repairs she must do a "science experiment". That pretty much sums it up.


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