# Finding light fixture in ceiling



## chanaadair (Oct 6, 2008)

I need to find out if there is ANY way possible(short of tearing out the ceiling and drilling lots of holes in the ceiling) of finding where the light fixtures use to be in our home. The ceiling was replaced in living room and den before we bought it and to be honest I didn't think of even counting how many switches and how many light fixtures, etc. We had a house fire and had to have something quick so now I have this to contend with. Anyways, the living room and den had ceilings replaced from the original tile panel type thing and was replaced with sheet rock with some kind of popcorn(?) texture but they covered the light fixtures. I want to find them and install light fixtures so the rooms are bright and not dark as they are now. Is there ANY way, some kind of tool to find where these boogers are? thanks


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## cwwozniak (Nov 29, 2005)

Most electrical boxes are made of steel. A metal detector or even a strong magnet passed along the ceiling should be able to find them.

I would be very concerned about the wiring used to connect to those junction boxes. The fire could have damaged the insulation on the wires to cause them to short together; if not during the fire then maybe at some time in the future.


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## buck52 (Mar 9, 2001)

cwwozniak said:


> Most electrical boxes are made of steel. A metal detector or even a strong magnet passed along the ceiling should be able to find them.
> 
> I would be very concerned about the wiring used to connect to those junction boxes. The fire could have damaged the insulation on the wires to cause them to short together; if not during the fire then maybe at some time in the future.


they're just as apt to be plastic... depending on the type and age

no access from above I gather?


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## telecom69 (Oct 12, 2001)

I too would have concerns over the safety of any previous wiring after a fire,I would think it might even have been ripped out and replaced,Im thinking like buck that you need access from above to install new fittings etc...better to be safe than sorry .....


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## DrewUberAlles (May 9, 2007)

I worked for an electrician this summer and I have realized that there is only one way to find something out and it usually involves either getting dirty or being extremely uncomfortable. 

In this case unless the ceiling you are talking about has a floor above it, you have at least a crawl space between the ceiling of that room and the roof. Take a flashlight and just follow the wires and look for the junction boxes. If a good electrician wired the house, he would have wire nutted all loose connections and neatly tucked them in a box. If the work was done some time ago they may be hanging loose in which case be careful.

At a certain point you have to decide is this worth my time and effort to try to do or just bite the bullet and call a professional. There are two things that I would never DIY and that is plumbing and electrical. If you don't know what you are doing, don't risk your safety and just make the call.


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## JohnWill (Oct 19, 2002)

Actually, plumbing and electrical aren't all that difficult for the DIY person if they have the basic skills. This isn't rocket science.


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## Drabdr (Nov 26, 2007)

If I understand your query correctly, you had some light fixtures installed in the ceiling (that is for certain, correct? You don't want to chase gremlins). They were covered up by the sheetrocker, and you want to find them. Is that correct?

Who took the lights down, and did they cap off the wires? I hope so.

How old is the house? Saying, really, really old houses (older than 1920's/ 1930's) sometimes they would stick a box anywhere. Normally, they are put in "reasonable" places.

If you could pop up in the attic, that's the easy way. Sometimes you can look through the side of an A/C vent and see if there's something.

Otherwise, lights are typically put in the center of the room, center of the dining area, etc. You can measure that spot off, and using a small finish nail, make a small hole there. Using a wire/ coat hanger, see if it bottoms out at 2 or 3 inches or so (you're in the box). If it keeps going, you probably missed it, but can poke around and try to find it by hitting the side.

If you hit it, make a slightly larger hole and verify with something else, and on up in size to a hammer. Before you go crazy knocking a hole, take the time to be reasonably sure you're in the box. NOTE: Either turn the power off, or don't just stick your finger up in there. It could be hot.

If you happen to hit the box, and if wire nuts weren't installed, turn the power off for the wires. You don't want to be hitting them. Use a scoring knife, and cut just enough within the circumference of the box.

Now, this is assuming there's a box. If it was a fan, it may just be a wire.


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## Drabdr (Nov 26, 2007)

DrewUberAlles said:


> I worked for an electrician this summer and I have realized that there is only one way to find something out and it usually involves either getting dirty or being extremely uncomfortable.
> 
> In this case unless the ceiling you are talking about has a floor above it, you have at least a crawl space between the ceiling of that room and the roof. Take a flashlight and just follow the wires and look for the junction boxes. If a good electrician wired the house, he would have wire nutted all loose connections and neatly tucked them in a box. If the work was done some time ago they may be hanging loose in which case be careful.
> 
> At a certain point you have to decide is this worth my time and effort to try to do or just bite the bullet and call a professional. There are two things that I would never DIY and that is plumbing and electrical. If you don't know what you are doing, don't risk your safety and just make the call.


Drew, from one electrician to another... I agree. However, in my old age I have realized there are risks/tradeoffs and such. For the most part, people are going to hang lights, fans, and maybe change a plug or switch on their own. I'll try to help them, so they do it correctly. After that, adding circuits and such probably need an electrician, IMHO. That is not because people are inept or it's too complex, it's just that the electrician is more experienced and proficient at it. In the end, it is most probably worth the person's time to get a pro. Again... just my opinion.


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## buck52 (Mar 9, 2001)

As a licensed Construction supervisor in the state of Mass...

who on earth authorized the sheetrocker to cover over any wiring boxes... burying any box with connections in it is illegal... there must be access from either above or below... period

All of the last few posts and suggestions are irrelavent...


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## wacor (Feb 22, 2005)

buck52 said:


> As a licensed Construction supervisor in the state of Mass...
> 
> who on earth authorized the sheetrocker to cover over any wiring boxes... burying any box with connections in it is illegal... there must be access from either above or below... period
> 
> All of the last few posts and suggestions are irrelavent...


which leads me to question if there were any fixtures in the ceiling to begin with.


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## Drabdr (Nov 26, 2007)

Ahhh... it actually helps when you read the original post.

How old is this house? There was a period (I believe in the mid 1950's) when the trend things was to have lamps and mood lights; as opposed to light fixtures. This is especially true in the living room. However, they did put switched plugs. 

If this is the case, find some switches that you don't know what they are for, and see if they work plugs on the wall. You can plug a radio or something in them. Leave them off if they don't work plugs, as I am unsure of your actual situation there.


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## JohnWill (Oct 19, 2002)

If the wires in the ceiling are live, you can also use one of the more modern stud finders that also have an indicator of live electrical circuits to find the wiring and box.


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## iltos (Jun 13, 2004)

JohnWill said:


> Actually, plumbing and electrical aren't all that difficult for the DIY person if they have the basic skills. This isn't rocket science.


no....but somethings wierd....no house i've ever worked on had "original tile panel type things"....sounds like acoustical tiles on sleepers, put up to hide an old plaster ceiling, which would indicate steel boxes, 1" or more above the new drywall ceiling

why anyone would bury all the existing electrical in a room is beyond me.....needing something "quick" don't cut it....another 10-20 minutes of measuring and cutting, and all those electrical boxes would have been in plain site.


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## buck52 (Mar 9, 2001)

iltos said:


> no....but somethings wierd....no house i've ever worked on had "original tile panel type things"....sounds like acoustical tiles on sleepers, put up to hide an old plaster ceiling, which would indicate steel boxes, 1" or more above the new drywall ceiling
> 
> why anyone would bury all the existing electrical in a room is beyond me.....needing something "quick" don't cut it....another 10-20 minutes of measuring and cutting, and all those electrical boxes would have been in plain site.


like I said it's also illegal... know way to say anymore until the op posts back with more accurate info


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## buck52 (Mar 9, 2001)

JohnWill said:


> This isn't rocket science.


Unfortunately... for some it might as well be...


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## iltos (Jun 13, 2004)

buck52 said:


> like I said it's also illegal


yeppers....but people tweak the code all the time for stuff that makes sense for them....
covering up all the lights in a room is just plain goofy...THEN it's illegal ..



> no way to say anymore until the op posts back with more accurate info


:up:


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## chanaadair (Oct 6, 2008)

sorry it's taken so long to get back to reply to anyone. I'm still doing repair from the hurricane. The house is acutally a mobile home, a 77 Lancer it's 31 years old and in great condition other than the eves and faschia needing repaired and now some other minor stuff. The mobile home was bought after my original house caught fire. I mis worded it and apologize. Anyways, in this mobile home, it's a double wide the living room and den have been sheetrocked and popcorn textured I believe is how they did it. At any rate it's not the original ceiling. We bought this from an individual. I am unsure as to who did the work, but I did talk to the guy and he said it did have light fixtures in both the den and living room at one point but he didn't remember where. So now I am left to wondering if I can ever find these or not. I don't know why the ceilings in these two rooms were replaced or even when, I just know when we bought the trailer they were and are not the original ceilings. SOOOOOO I was trying to figure out if there was any way to find them or not. I did try to install a light but the sheet rock does not support very well which led me to my decision to try and find these fixtures. But maybe ya'll are right, maybe I'll just have to basically cut a hole and look as there is no room access, etc to take a look around. I guess I should have thought about this when they took off my roof 3 years ago to repair it. Thanks everyone of ya'll for the advice and I'll keep looking for these stupid fixtures but like stated........who in their right minds would have even covered them? I think it was a "hurry get it done , make money and to heck with doing it right" type job. Ah well. the joy of repairs.......never ends.


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## iltos (Jun 13, 2004)

chanaadair said:


> sorry it's taken so long to get back to reply to anyone. I'm still doing repair from the hurricane. The house is acutally a mobile home, a 77 Lancer it's 31 years old and in great condition other than the eves and faschia needing repaired and now some other minor stuff. The mobile home was bought after my original house caught fire. I mis worded it and apologize. Anyways, in this mobile home, it's a double wide the living room and den have been sheetrocked and popcorn textured I believe is how they did it. At any rate it's not the original ceiling. We bought this from an individual. I am unsure as to who did the work, but I did talk to the guy and he said it did have light fixtures in both the den and living room at one point but he didn't remember where. So now I am left to wondering if I can ever find these or not. I don't know why the ceilings in these two rooms were replaced or even when, I just know when we bought the trailer they were and are not the original ceilings. SOOOOOO I was trying to figure out if there was any way to find them or not. I did try to install a light but the sheet rock does not support very well which led me to my decision to try and find these fixtures. But maybe ya'll are right, maybe I'll just have to basically cut a hole and look as there is no room access, etc to take a look around. I guess I should have thought about this when they took off my roof 3 years ago to repair it. Thanks everyone of ya'll for the advice and I'll keep looking for these stupid fixtures but like stated........who in their right minds would have even covered them? I think it was a "hurry get it done , make money and to heck with doing it right" type job. Ah well. the joy of repairs.......never ends.


ah....NOW i get it 
i did a quick search for lancer mobile homes on google....looks like your living room has a sloped ceiling....no access

here's a thought, if it's worth your trouble....lot's of older lancers for sale (oldest i saw in my quick search was '82)....they come with phone numbers, and pictures....if you can find one that's close enough, you might find some nice person at the other end of the phone willing to take a few measurements for you....locate your lights that way....

they don't call it modular housing for nothing


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## wacor (Feb 22, 2005)

If it is that old I would guess the boxes would be metal. maybe a metal locator or a stud finder might have some luck??


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## chanaadair (Oct 6, 2008)

iltos........that's a good idea I think I might try it. I'm actually surprised it's still holding up this well. It's been through 3 hurricanes and still going and holding well<knock on wood>. I think I will try the metal detector thing too. You think a stud finder might help in some way wacor? Is it because they would have to attach the light fixture box to a stud? Thank you all a gain.


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## Drabdr (Nov 26, 2007)

I made a quick check of the NEC, and by what I can tell, mobile homes are covered. So... buck's point is still salient: it's illegal to cover boxes up. If you did not do the work on the ceiling, then I would get them out here to figure out what is going on. 

Do you have an extra switch you cannot find? That's a good start. However.... if your lights are wired where you can turn them on at the light, then there may not be a switch.

John's suggestion is a good one. Find out if there is a live wire there. 

Is the mfg. of the mobile home still in business? Call them and tell them what is going on.

Me? If someone else did the work, make them fix it. If not, I would rip the ceiling down and check things out. If they covered up that light, there's no telling how many more corners got cut. You can put back up some facia board or something in its place.


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## wacor (Feb 22, 2005)

the old style stud finders are cheap. they detect nails by use of a magnet inside the stud finder. so if the box is metal it should detect it. if you have metal boxes I would think you could figure out if it is a box or a nail by slowly moving it around the area where something is detected to see where the signal stops.


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## iltos (Jun 13, 2004)

wacor said:


> the old style stud finders are cheap. they detect nails by use of a magnet inside the stud finder. so if the box is metal it should detect it. if you have metal boxes I would think you could figure out if it is a box or a nail by slowly moving it around the area where something is detected to see where the signal stops.


my concern is all the aluminim used in modular housing....old ones might well have a wood frame, tho :up:


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## wacor (Feb 22, 2005)

iltos said:


> my concern is all the aluminim used in modular housing....old ones might well have a wood frame, tho :up:


I was thinking the same but hoping with it old enough maybe not.

another thing to try would be a wiring tracer. the kind where you hook onto the end of a wire and it sends a signal thru the wire to be traced. that would allow him to follow the line across the ceiling and you would think the boxes would be somewhere in the middle of each room. then could use a thin probe to stick thru the sheetboard at suspected spots which would not make much of a hole to repair.


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## iltos (Jun 13, 2004)

wacor said:


> I was thinking the same but hoping with it old enough maybe not.
> 
> another thing to try would be a wiring tracer. the kind where you hook onto the end of a wire and it sends a signal thru the wire to be traced. that would allow him to follow the line across the ceiling and you would think the boxes would be somewhere in the middle of each room. then could use a thin probe to stick thru the sheetboard at suspected spots which would not make much of a hole to repair.


that's another good idea :up:


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## Drabdr (Nov 26, 2007)

wacor said:


> I was thinking the same but hoping with it old enough maybe not.
> 
> another thing to try would be a wiring tracer. the kind where you hook onto the end of a wire and it sends a signal thru the wire to be traced. that would allow him to follow the line across the ceiling and you would think the boxes would be somewhere in the middle of each room. then could use a thin probe to stick thru the sheetboard at suspected spots which would not make much of a hole to repair.


Yea, I had thought of that too. But.. you would need to find the wire that would feed it first. This brings me back to finding a switch that does not switch anything else, or find out if the light is switched at the light. If that is the case, then probably the nearest plug would feed it. Or, they hooked all the lights together on one, and plugs on another. Thus the nearest room light would feed it.


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## Drabdr (Nov 26, 2007)

what will work is a voltage sensor. It's about the size of a penlight. Fluke makes one. They are not that much.


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## buck52 (Mar 9, 2001)

iltos said:


> my concern is all the aluminim used in modular housing....old ones might well have a wood frame, tho :up:


most all modular homes I have dealt with have plenty of aluminum skins and windows but all have had wood framing...

the voltage sensor is a potential good idea.. kind of a cheap version of the ones the utility companies use to detect buryed lines


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## wacor (Feb 22, 2005)

Drabdr said:


> what will work is a voltage sensor. It's about the size of a penlight. Fluke makes one. They are not that much.


says you need to touch the wire. would it sense voltage thru sheetrock?

also depending upon how the wiring is done if it was a switched circuit going up to the box then you would need to find out which switch turns on power so there is a live wire going up to the box.

http://www.myflukestore.com/index.php?cPath=540&products_id=3530


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## Drabdr (Nov 26, 2007)

wacor said:


> says you need to touch the wire. would it sense voltage thru sheetrock?
> 
> also depending upon how the wiring is done if it was a switched circuit going up to the box then you would need to find out which switch turns on power so there is a live wire going up to the box.
> 
> http://www.myflukestore.com/index.php?cPath=540&products_id=3530


Yep... that's the one. Good question about the sheetrock. I just tested mine, and it would not sense power through the sheetrock (and paint).

So a good call on your part. But if you're looking to treat yourself to a small toy, that thing is kind of handy. You can quickly see with a bundle of wires which ones have voltage. You test on a known live one first, then test the ones under consideration.

And yes, you're correct about the switch thing. Another good observation.


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## chanaadair (Oct 6, 2008)

There are approximately 3 switches that have no use at current time and I know one of the switches goes to an outside light fixture, I found that wire after the hurricane when it ripped off the vinyl siding and exposing the wire. The other two appear to be for the living room and den area which is where I'm trying to find the light fixtures. I am almost to the point of frustration and ripping out these darn ceilings cause I see nothing but headache in trying to find these things.


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## iltos (Jun 13, 2004)

chanaadair said:


> I am almost to the point of frustration and ripping out these darn ceilings cause I see nothing but headache in trying to find these things.


i would be, too
in my experience, tho, persistent yields rewards.....

call up lancer


> Lancer Homes By Elliott
> Corporate Office
> 7605 Nickles Rd
> Duncan, Oklahoma 73533
> ...


visit this forum and post your question

or ask "an expert" here

there's got to be someone (likely some old geezer who loves his lancer ) who knows exactly where those stupid lights are....finding that person is less trouble than tearing down and replacing your ceiling, imo....or, at least, it sounds like more fun -to me


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## wacor (Feb 22, 2005)

iltos said:


> i would be, too
> in my experience, tho, persistent yields rewards.....
> 
> call up lancer
> ...


good suggestion :up:

did not think of them still being in business. they probably have some schematics for the standard design.


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## JohnWill (Oct 19, 2002)

Drabdr said:


> what will work is a voltage sensor. It's about the size of a penlight. Fluke makes one. They are not that much.


Modern stud finders include the function. I have one of the Stanley models, but I've seen it on other brands. Mine was around $20 at Home Depot, so it's not that expensive. I don't see a model number on it anywhere...


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## Soundy (Feb 17, 2006)

chanaadair said:


> There are approximately 3 switches that have no use at current time and I know one of the switches goes to an outside light fixture, I found that wire after the hurricane when it ripped off the vinyl siding and exposing the wire. The other two appear to be for the living room and den area which is where I'm trying to find the light fixtures. I am almost to the point of frustration and ripping out these darn ceilings cause I see nothing but headache in trying to find these things.


Have you confirmed yet whether these switches operate wall outlets somewhere, rather than ceiling fixtures? Typically when outlets are wired this way, one half (usually the lower socket) is un-switched, while the wall switch toggles the other half on and off. You can try plugging a light into each of the outlets in the room and flipping the switch for results.


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