# Random freezing



## MHYoshimitzu (Jul 1, 2003)

This is a problem that has been ongoing for about a year and a half to two years. I can't specifically pinpoint when this problem began, and why it is happening. That's where you guys come in. I've been reading about the problems that people have been having that pertain to my computer, and in most cases, you have been able to solve them. I really hope this is the case here.

My computer like to freeze in any application. It tends to freeze when I play games (Medal of Honor: Allied Assault is one of the games that requires more from my computer, but it isn't picky about which games it freezes in.) I can be writing something in Wordperfect and it will freeze, or even playing solitaire. Internet Explorer is one of the other applications that it freezes in the most. I cannot use Ctrl+Alt+Delete to get out of this lock up, and I cannot move the mouse if the computer freezes in IE or Windows. I always have to press the restart button and go through Scandisk. It even freezes trying to load Windows sometimes. (It doesn't do it all the time, remember I said it has no pattern.) I've tried every single aspect of Nortons, run disk defrag (I haven't done that in a while.), even downloaded Ad-aware and used it to find spyware that might be interfering. 

The one thing I can say it always freezes in is when I try to run a full systems diagnostic using Ad-aware or Nortons. 

Here are my computer specs:

Windows 98: SE
AMD Athlon-PCEM, 750 MHz (3.75 x 200)
128 mb (PC-100 SDRAM) (system memory)
NVIDIA GeForce4 MX 440 (video card)
ESS Technology Allegro-1.COMM AudioDrive (sound card)

If you need anything else, just ask. I really hope you guys can help me with this.

Jeff Craven


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## buddhafabio (Aug 5, 2002)

i don't know if this will fix the problem but it will help if you had more ram most importantly when playing Medal of Honor: Allied Assault


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## Guest (Jul 2, 2003)

I think I might have a solution. This happens to me sometimes too. You know when u restart your computer and the blue screen scandisk comes up? That usually doesn't fix problems (i dont know why). Click on Start, then Run, and type in: scandisk
Scan all your immediate drives for errors this way. Do a standard type of test, because thourough takes too long (3 hours). I hope this will help.


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## MHYoshimitzu (Jul 1, 2003)

> _Originally posted by crazyonskis:_
> *I think I might have a solution. This happens to me sometimes too. You know when u restart your computer and the blue screen scandisk comes up? That usually doesn't fix problems (i dont know why). Click on Start, then Run, and type in: scandisk
> Scan all your immediate drives for errors this way. Do a standard type of test, because thourough takes too long (3 hours). I hope this will help. *


I actually have done scandisk this way. I've solved a few problems that way, but the main one still persists- the freezing. I just upgraded my video card in December, so I don't think it's that.


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## Guest (Jul 2, 2003)

try reinstalling windows. if u dont have the cd install from 
C:/Windows/Options/Cabs/setup.exe


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## MHYoshimitzu (Jul 1, 2003)

That would be my absolute last resort, I want to know if there is something I can do before that. I don't want to go through the hassle of saving all my files to disks if there is something I can do first.


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## Guest (Jul 2, 2003)

You don't have to do any saving to a disk!!!! There are 2 types of installations, a clean one and a regular one. A clean one erases all your files and is a lot more complex to do. A regular one, like installing from the folder i said installs over the existing OS, and all of your files are still there! I promise


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## MHYoshimitzu (Jul 1, 2003)

So you're saying that reinstalling Windows 98 would not erase all my files?


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## Guest (Jul 2, 2003)

yes, it will NOT erase all your files. just go to C:/Windows/Options/Cabs/setup.exe
and start reinstalling.


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## MHYoshimitzu (Jul 1, 2003)

Ok thanks. I think I'll go try that.


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## MHYoshimitzu (Jul 1, 2003)

Interesting... when I clicked on setup the first time, the screen went black and I had to restart. The second time, it went to the setup screen, and then prompted me for two disks which I cannot find. Any other advice before I go tearing my computer room apart?


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## Guest (Jul 2, 2003)

Make sure you have all the 55 cab files before u do the setup, because that might be the problem. If u have all 55 and it still doesnt do a proper setup i ????????????


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## cyclefreak (Dec 19, 2002)

If I do a FIND for *cabs* am I suppose to have 55 of them? Or are there suppose to be 55 files within 1 cabs folder? ( I only have 33 files)


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## MHYoshimitzu (Jul 1, 2003)

I have been having less and less problems with IE, but now Medal of Honor is giving me a whole mess of trouble. When I load my save file, I get a message saying that the game performed an illegal operation. These are the details:

MOHAA caused an invalid page fault in
module MSSFAST.M3D at 017f:22603807.
Registers:
EAX=07170084 CS=017f EIP=22603807 EFLGS=00010287
EBX=0c63d1ee SS=0187 ESP=0706ff28 EBP=00008000
ECX=0c63d1ee DS=0187 ESI=2261195c FS=22ff
EDX=07178084 ES=0187 EDI=07170084 GS=0000
Bytes at CS:EIP:
66 8b 3b 66 89 78 02 66 89 38 83 c0 04 83 c3 02 
Stack dump:
00000000 226119e0 2261195c 00001770 00008000 00000000 00000000 226036e4 04934ba4 00000002 0706ffcc 00001770 0000001f 2110154c 00000000 bff7c8bd 

Can anyone help me? This computer seems to be jumping from one problem to another...


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## buddhafabio (Aug 5, 2002)

people always argue with me about, reinstalling from cd is always better than reinstalling from the cabs, because you get a chance to squash any corruptions, where there is a chance they last from cab install


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## MHYoshimitzu (Jul 1, 2003)

I've run into another problem. (Yes, I realize it has been a while since I replied to the topic, I've been on vacation) Now, it will freeze two different ways. The only time I can be sure it will freeze is if I play Medal of Honor: AA, I've said that much. There is another way it will freeze though. Sometimes the screen will just freeze, and the only thing I can use is the mouse. I usually have to end up restarting the computer using C-A-D. This is the only form of freezing that I can get out of without just outright rebooting. Sometimes the mouse will just stop moving, and then 5-10 seconds later, will go right back to what it was doing. There is no difference that I can see between the freeze that you can't do anything, and the freeze that will go back in 5-10 seconds. 

Upgrading RAM is out of the question, as I am on an unsupported Everex computer. Can anyone direct me to a place where I can get some RAM for an Everex computer?

Would it help if I posted the results from Hijack This, or upgraded my antivirus program? (It's a few weeks out of date)

My dad was also thinking about upgrading to Windows XP. He said it might correct the problem. Is this true?

Thank you again for any help you can give me. I'm really grateful for the help you've given me so far.

Oh, and I cannot find the Windows 98 CD, but my friend has one, should I borrow it from him?


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## Rollin' Rog (Dec 9, 2000)

First of all I would say that to play video games like that you need a good deal more than 128 mb of ram, even if it does meet 'minimum specs'. Increasing that is one of the first things I would do. At least 256 mb and 512 if you can afford it.

The second thing is to make sure the Video drivers are the latest for the games you are playing. You can get Nvidia's latest here:

http://www.nvidia.com/content/drivers/drivers.asp

The third thing is heat. Video games and graphics intensive applications max out the cpu and the video card both. So you need to ensure adequate cooling both by checking to see that the fan is working and perhaps testing by keeping a small table fan blowing on the open PC case during the game which is causing the freeze.

The fourth thing is the power supply; I'm going to assume this was not a home built system and that the power supply is athlon approved and there have not been substantial hardware additions in the meantime.

If frequent blue screens, freezes and Windows protection errors occur, the ram itself should be checked.

Here is an easy to make and use software ram tester:

http://www.memtest86.com/

I don't see what the computer model has to do with a problem upgrading the ram. You just need to determine what is installed and get more of the same.

Aida32 will help you do that. It is an excellent freeware program. The Enterprise version is ok to install.

When you run it click on the Motherboard > SPD entry to see your current ram info

http://www.aida32.hu/aida-download.php?bit=32

AND, if you enter everex ram into a google search you will come up with sites like this:

http://discountram.biz/Index everex.htm


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## MHYoshimitzu (Jul 1, 2003)

Apacer Tech. (128 MB PC100 SDRAM)

Not sure what that is, or where to get it.

The freezing started a while back when I noticed that all my 3-D games suddenly stopped playing. But then I could just use C-A-D and get out of it. Now it locks up in an impossible to get out of fashion. I don't evn know if it's a hardware or software conflict. Is there any way to test this?


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## Rollin' Rog (Dec 9, 2000)

The actual brand name (Apacer) is not important. What you want is to make sure you get PC100 sdram.

Aida32 or a look at your motherboard should tell you how many slots are available.

The tricky part is knowing what the limit on mb size is supported by the board. I don't know how to tell you that without seeing a motherboard manual for the board.

You can be sure of 128mb of course, because that's what you have. Most systems running at your processor speed should be expected to support 256mb modules, but I wouldn't go for anything more than that. And in Win98, you don't want a total of more than 512mb or you have to so some tweaking to ensure it is handled properly.

Crucial is a respected online site if you don't have any trusted computer stores near you:

http://www.crucial.com/store/listProductLine.asp?cat=RAM&mfr=Everex&submit=Go

The best way to sort out software from hardware issues is to "clean boot" the system as much as possible.

In Win98 the best way to do this is simply to run *msconfig* and clear the check for the "startup group" for a test session.

From there, if you have no problems, you need to clear checks for individual items under the startup tab to test.

Your antivirus might be a good place to start. Scanregistry, systray and loadpowerprofiles can be ignored.


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## MHYoshimitzu (Jul 1, 2003)

Well, the thing is, I've had just Explorer and Systray running in the background, and my computer's still frozen. So it must be something else.


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## Rollin' Rog (Dec 9, 2000)

Is the freeze just occuring with the game? And are you online with it? Does it happen also immediately after a reboot?

Also try this for a test: go to System Properties > Performance > Graphics and try sliding the hardware acceleration down a notch or two. You will see a performance loss at none or basic, not too much at "most".

If you don't get freezes at lower settings, this is a video driver problem.


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## MHYoshimitzu (Jul 1, 2003)

Actually, I'm relatively sure it's a RAM problem. Check out Aida32's diagnosis.

Physical Memory	
Total	127 MB
Used	126 MB
Free	0 MB
Utilization	99 %

Swap Space	
Total	1920 MB
Used	60 MB
Free	1859 MB
Utilization	3 %

Virtual Memory	
Total	2047 MB
Used	187 MB
Free	1860 MB
Utilization	9 %

Problems & Suggestions	
Suggestion	Install more system memory to improve applications performance.

Because it has anywhere from 0%- 2% of memory available at once, this is probably the problem. I found a 256 mb thing of RAM on that site you gave me. Now we just have to save the money to get it. (Don't have a job...  ) In the meantime, can you suggest what to get rid of to free up the memory?


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## Rollin' Rog (Dec 9, 2000)

Although it's not uncommon for available ram to drop very low, even to 0 in some cases before Windows intervenes and frees up more, that is extreme, especially if it stays at that level.

What do you see after a fresh boot with normal startups?

Normal boot after opening IE and going online?

Freshboot with minimal startups (clean boot)?

Safe Mode boot?

Something might not be releasing memory properly.

Here is a freebee which can show you just which programs are using the most ram. To see the appropriate column, click View > Columns > check "Working Set"

Get Process Explorer here:

http://www.sysinternals.com/

(aida32 itself takes about 10mb of ram as I look at it on my XP system)

Hmmm it looks like PE will not show "working set" in Win98 unless that due to the fact that I just copied over my XP version to 98; and I think they are really the same.

Try Taskinfo; don't be put off by the "price", just go for the trial version and see if it does expire. I've been running one that didn't. Bad me.

http://www.iarsn.com/taskinfo.html


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## MHYoshimitzu (Jul 1, 2003)

There is no "working set" option to check under View/Select Columns.


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## Rollin' Rog (Dec 9, 2000)

That's what I was afraid of, see my edit to the last post. Taskinfo will show "inmemkb" which is the same thing. Win98 is supported for this


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## MHYoshimitzu (Jul 1, 2003)

Okay, here are my findings:

Normal Boot: Ultilization- 78% and climbing. Reached 95% and stayed there

Cold Boot (only Explorer and Systray): Utilization- 80% (this baffled me to no end) and climbing. Reached 95% and stayed there.

Safe Mode: Utilization- 54% and stayed there.

I think something is very, very wrong.


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## Rollin' Rog (Dec 9, 2000)

Yeah something is definitely not adding up right there.

Even in Safe Mode that seems kind of high

Do have a look at what Taskinfo says is holding all that memory. About the only thing it could be is Explorer.

I don't see any startups or running processes for ESAfe, yet your winsock protocols have been altered to point to its dlls.

http://forums.techguy.org/showthread.php?postid=1041222#post1041222

Is ESafe in Add/Remove programs, and is it something you or your family feel is required?


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## MHYoshimitzu (Jul 1, 2003)

We do not use Esafe anymore, so uninstalling it would not be a problem. Yes, it is in Add/Remove Programs.


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## Rollin' Rog (Dec 9, 2000)

Before you uninstall it I'd like you to have this handy:

http://www.cexx.org/lspfix.htm

In the unlikely, but not inconceivable event that you lose internet connectivity when you uninstall it (because of those changes to the Winsock layered service protocol) -- run lspfix and move all the esafe dlls to the Remove window. You will need to tell it you "know what" you are doing, and then click finish. This will properly repair the protocols (if they remain) which no longer have the actuall dlls to call when you remove Esafe.


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## MHYoshimitzu (Jul 1, 2003)

I thought ESafe is an antivirus program, why would I lose my internet connection?

Oh, and here's my Task Manager picture. It's a little complicated for me, and I'm wondering if you can analyze it for me.


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## Rollin' Rog (Dec 9, 2000)

Beats me why they needed to alter the layered service protocol unless the program included a firewall -- some of which do. But because of that there is the risk that an incomplete removal could cause loss of access.

You need to move the center divider bar in Taskinfo to the right to reveal the other columns. If you don't see Physical Memory (inMemKb) there click on Preferences > Enable Columns, and check it..

Also slide the Process divider bar to the right some so more can be seen of the path info, and in VIEW, uncheck "Process ID"


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## MHYoshimitzu (Jul 1, 2003)

Here's the new picture.

It only lets me select a few dlls in that other program...

rnr20.dll
EspSoc2.dll
mswsosp.dll
msafd.dll
rsvpsp.dll

Are these the ones I need to place in the Remove folder?


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## Rollin' Rog (Dec 9, 2000)

Just these, (don't touch the others): espsock2.dll

Have you uninstalled the program first?


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## MHYoshimitzu (Jul 1, 2003)

I have not uninstalled the program or done anything with the dlls yet. Which should I do first?

Anyway, here's the next picture:


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## Rollin' Rog (Dec 9, 2000)

Uninstall the program -- it should repair the winsock to its original state. If you still see that dll in the window, then do the "remove" procedure.

The actual physical kb of ram being used by the running programs only adds up to about 40 mb. So the question is what is Windows doing with the rest? I can't tell.

One thing I see is that in spite of that low "available ram" the swap file usage is relatively small.

I'm wondering if at some time you or someone else didn't add a "conservative swapfile usage" entry in system.ini.

How about running system.ini from start>run so that it opens in Notepad.

Save a copy of the file to the desktop and rename it system.txt

Then upload it here as an attachment.

If you have trouble with that, just do a copy/paste, but it takes quite a bit of post space.

don't make or accept any changes when you close the file.


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## MHYoshimitzu (Jul 1, 2003)

Here's the system.ini text file.

My dad doesn't remember doing that, but maybe a Windows update or a program that we downloaded did it automatically?


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## Rollin' Rog (Dec 9, 2000)

You may have had a cache management program installed at one time, but yes here it is:

ConservativeSwapfileUsage=1

Just cut that out of the [386Enh] section and save the file with the change. (not the desktop one of course). Then reboot.

There are also some other cache settings there under Vcache, but I don't think that should be a problem; however we might want to delete or lower the MaxFileCache entry as well


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## MHYoshimitzu (Jul 1, 2003)

Done. Rebooting now. Then I'll check Aida32 again. Can you list the programs under Vcache that can be removed just in case this doesn't do it.

I'd also like to mention that you've been a big help thus far. I'd have never thought of this on my own. Thank you.

Let's hope this does something.

Edit- Utilization is still at 98%, but everything seems to be moving faster. Though I'm still in Cold Boot (Explorer + Systray)

Those other programs might be better off if they are removed.


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## Rollin' Rog (Dec 9, 2000)

I'm surprised that didn't make a difference in usage.

But also remove these two entries:

MinPagingFileSize=130524
PagingDrive=C:

You can even delete the entire [Vcache] section; all of these are "add-ons"

BEFORE rebooting go to System Properties > Performance > Virtual Memory and make sure

"let Windows Manage My Virtual Memory" is selected. Then you can reboot. This will change the location of the paging file, not that I think it's going to make a lot of difference, but it will set everything back to their original Windows default


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## MHYoshimitzu (Jul 1, 2003)

My computer is full of surprises.

Okay, I did all that, I'm going to reboot. I'll tell you what Aida32 says once I get back online.


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## MHYoshimitzu (Jul 1, 2003)

Before loading IE, it started at 78% and then leveled at 90%, which is the lowest I've seen it at.

But, loading IE put it at 99%. Is there some sort of problem with my RAM? I'm not good with hardware, so I wouldn't know anything about that.


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## Rollin' Rog (Dec 9, 2000)

I'm puzzled. Are you sure the changes you made were actually saved to the system.ini file and not the text file on the desktop?

Run system.ini from start again and verify that the changes were made to the .ini file.


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## MHYoshimitzu (Jul 1, 2003)

Everything was saved.

And you're not the first to be puzzled about this computer. My dad bought it off the TV two years ago. Let me tell you, that is the last time we are doing that.

Can you think of any hardware/software conflicts that might be causing it to freeze? It does seem to be going faster, with minimal freezing. (It's only frozen twice tonight.) Thank you for what you've done so far.


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## Rollin' Rog (Dec 9, 2000)

I don't know what is causing that strange usage; but the actual programs are not using the allotted ram, so you shouldn't be freezing due to out of memory errors.

Other than getting rid of clearsearch and mimimizing your startups temporarily (you want to renable NAV, and if you use your scanner regularly you need Stimon.exe checked) there isn't much to eliminate by way of software.

At this point I would think the freezing is likely heat related.

Did you experiment with lowering hardware acceleration in System Properties > performance > graphics?

You don't need to leave it at a lowered level unless you are sure it helps.


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## MHYoshimitzu (Jul 1, 2003)

I have experimented with hardware acceleration, and the same freezing occurs.

As for being heat related, the very first time I experimented with it(I blew a fan into the tower, without removing the case), it worked wonderfully for about an hour before freezing. 

I then took off the case and blew a fan in it, and it worked for a while too, then started freezing again. 

My dad cleaned the tower out, and it didn't help.

As you can see, I've exhausted all possibilities I can think of, and I'm willing to do anything to recover this computer from this problem. 

My antivirus isn't helping, but it's Norton Systemworks 2000. I have upgraded Norton Antivirus so they are about a month old. I do not have a firewall. 

As I've said, all possibilities I've thought of have failed. It seems whenever I try something, it works for a while, then fails miserably. If it's not a heat problem, then what?


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## Rollin' Rog (Dec 9, 2000)

I don't know what else to suggest as a practical matter; there is certainly something strange about the memory usage; it appears Windows sees it and locks it but the actual programs don't seem to use it all.

I don't expect any revelations, but if you haven't tried that memory tester, you might as well, at least you will find out whether it can actually write to all your ram.


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## MHYoshimitzu (Jul 1, 2003)

I was kind of puzzled as far as that program went. What am I supposed to do?


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## Rollin' Rog (Dec 9, 2000)

I don't know where you are with it. You have to create a floppy with the image file. To do that you just put a clean floppy in the floppy drive and run the setup program. Then reboot with the floppy in the drive. It will start automatically. Let it run through a couple of complete "passes". Each pass includes 7 types of checks, each one has to complete before you get a "pass".

Then you can just hit esc and remove the floppy and reboot.


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## MHYoshimitzu (Jul 1, 2003)

Oh. I wasn't sure. I'll try that tomorrow, it's getting late. Thanks again for all the help, and if you think of anything, please tell me.


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## Rollin' Rog (Dec 9, 2000)

Okedoke. You're certainly welcome for the efforts.


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## twill (Jul 29, 2003)

Good lord.... first, I noticed someone talking about a memory tester but couldn't seem to find the post with the link to the tester in it.

Try here for a good linux based memory module tester (does not require linux experience or installing linux at all, just follow the directions on the website)
http://www.memtest86.com/

Other than that, have you tried removing simple hardware like just the soundcard?

Often times the reason for things to completely freeze up is related to hardware conflicts. Oh well, no way to go back to the beginning though. If you do end up reinstalling everything, you might consider removing the sound card and any other pci devices that aren't necessary for operation of the pc (ethernet, modem, sound, etc)

Especially in XP and 2000, these devices can often conflict due to the "neat" idea of microsoft to share all resources with every device. 98 didn't have this issue since you could change those resources on your own but 2000 and XP are changing everything. Goody for us.


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## MHYoshimitzu (Jul 1, 2003)

Well, I'm not much of a hardware person, so I'd have to have my dad do that. We were thinking of getting XP, since that would supposedly solve a lot of problems. Is this a good idea?


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## Rollin' Rog (Dec 9, 2000)

If this is a hardware problem upgrading to XP will not solve it and may well compound it. For the price of upgrading memory and buying the OS, you would be better off getting a new pc.

One thing we haven't looked at though is the IRQ setup; while I don't think this is causing a freeze (normally they cause reboots or restart problems), it won't hurt to have look.

You can post them by running *msinfo32* click on the Hardware Environment setting, then IRQs.

When they are displayed in the right pane click Edit>Select All>Edit>Copy and paste the copied text here.


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## twill (Jul 29, 2003)

I just bring up the hardware issue simply because I just put 2 different sound cards (separately) into my machine and now it is causing random lockups just like you described. If I take either card out or disable them in device manager, the lockups quit. Something about how the sound and video drivers won't work together.

Unfortunately after disabling ACPI for windows so I could get each device on its own IRQ, it still happens and I'm forced to resign myself to the fact that those sound cards just don't work on my machine.

Ahh well, time for a newer bigger machine anyhow.

What Rollin' Rog says is absolutely true though that upgrading to XP and replacing memory though... you might as well just upgrade the pc entirely. No sense in adding memory and a new OS when the rest of the current pc is sem-out-of-date as well.


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## MHYoshimitzu (Jul 1, 2003)

We were planning on getting a new PC sooner or later (sooner more than later) but money's been kinda tight. That's why I wanted to see if I could temporarily solve the problem of the computer freezing so at least something could be done on it. I don't mind at all about not being able to play games or anything like that, just as long as we have a computer to use for word processing and storing important files. I'll have my dad remove the sound card and or video card and see if that does anything, but it won't be for a while as I'm hardware illiterate. 

Every time someone suggests something though, it seems to work for about an hour, then it regresses. Does this sound like the symptoms of a virus that I'm not familiar with?


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## MHYoshimitzu (Jul 1, 2003)

Sorry for double posting, but here's the IRQ thing:

0	System timer
1	Standard 101/102-Key or Microsoft Natural Keyboard
2	Programmable interrupt controller
3	SCI IRQ used by ACPI bus
4	Communications Port (COM1)
5	VIA Tech PCI to USB Universal Host Controller
5	VIA Tech PCI to USB Universal Host Controller
5	ACPI IRQ Holder for PCI IRQ Steering
6	Standard Floppy Disk Controller
7	Printer Port (LPT1)
8	System CMOS/real time clock
9	(free)
10	MDP3880 PCI Modem Enumerator
10	VIA AC'97 Audio Controller (WDM)
10	ACPI IRQ Holder for PCI IRQ Steering
11	NVIDIA GeForce4 MX 440
11	ESS Allegro PCI Audio (WDM)
11	ACPI IRQ Holder for PCI IRQ Steering
12	PS/2 Compatible Mouse Port
13	Numeric data processor
14	Primary IDE controller (dual fifo)
14	VIA Bus Master PCI IDE Controller
15	Secondary IDE controller (dual fifo)
15	VIA Bus Master PCI IDE Controller

Oh, and I ran the memory tester thing for 8 hours and it didn't do anything. I think I did something wrong, because I just let it go for that time, and all it did was ran the same tests for that time.


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## kilowatt1 (Oct 27, 2001)

Please go to Start/Run. Type in msconfig. Click on the "Startup" tab. Uncheck everything except scanreg, systray and the two load power profiles. Click apply and reboot when prompted. See if there is any improvement. I noticed that in an earlier thread you mentioned that you had stopped everything running except systray and explorer but it was not clear whether you were doing so using Crtl-Alt-Delete to end tasks or through msconfig as memtioned above.


Kilowatt


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## Rollin' Rog (Dec 9, 2000)

That's all it does; if no fails are reported and all tests are "pass", then there is nothing wrong with the memory.

I'm not too pleased with seeing this on the same IRQ as the Video card:

11 ESS Allegro PCI Audio (WDM)

Typically I would expect it to show up on IRQ 5. It is probably an integrated chip so you can't really move it. Although you could probably move the video card.

Kilowatt1, any thoughts?


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## kilowatt1 (Oct 27, 2001)

Hello Rog,

I agree. Having the video and sound cards sharing is not a good idea. Since IRQ 9 is available, I would suggest moving the sound card to another slot. I have a sneaky feeling too that there is something starting up which is eating up resourses. It is almost like the PCHealth in WinMe hanging problem, but since this is Win98se that can't be it.


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## Rollin' Rog (Dec 9, 2000)

Can you tell whether that's a card or a chip?

I agree with you about the resources, but danged if I didn't pull out all the stops trying to clean boot; I think it was done correctly, but won't hurt to try again.

Memory usage was high even in Safe Mode, and ridiculous when only two startups were loaded on a clean boot.

I added up all the in usage memory per program Taskinfo2003 showed and it didn't come anywhere's near 95% and yet Windows was apparenly locking it.

Had a look at system.ini and was SURE that was IT. Took out conservativeswapfileusage=1 and reset everything to Windows default use of Virtual Memory, and the problem remained.


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## MHYoshimitzu (Jul 1, 2003)

When we upgraded our video card to our current one, my dad installed it in the same slot that the old card was in. It was freezing before the upgrade, that's one of the reasons why we got the card. He doesn't know how to switch IRQs or anything, but he thinks he can move the card to another slot. Can you give him instructions on how to move the card to a different IRQ? He seemed a little confused when I talked to him at work.


----------



## Rollin' Rog (Dec 9, 2000)

Basically, if there is another open slot, you just try it and see if the IRQs come out differently on reboot. While there are sometimes ways to assign IRQs in the BIOS, this not an area I'm intimately familiar with and it generally shouldn't be necessary anyway.


----------



## MHYoshimitzu (Jul 1, 2003)

I think I found something interesting while browsing in Aida 32. Look at the problem it diagnosed:

Chipset Properties	
Motherboard Chipset	VIA VT8363(A) Apollo KT133(A)
CAS Latency	3T
RAS To CAS Delay	3T
RAS Precharge	3T

Memory Slots	
DRAM Slot #1	128 MB (PC100 SDRAM)

AGP Properties	
AGP Version	2.00
AGP Status	Enabled
AGP Aperture Size	64 MB
Supported AGP Speeds	1x, 2x, 4x
Current AGP Speed	4x
Fast-Write	Supported, Enabled
Side Band Addressing	Supported, Disabled

Chipset Manufacturer	
Company Name	VIA Technologies, Inc.
Product Information	http://www.via.com.tw/en/apollo/chipsetindex.jsp
Driver Download	http://www.viaarena.com/?PageID=2

Problems & Suggestions	
Problem	AGP aperture size is more than half of the system memory size. This may cause performance penalty.


----------



## Rollin' Rog (Dec 9, 2000)

This is one of those obscure BIOS settings which is little understood by most, myself included. Do be assured that, 1 -- this is not actual physical memory that is being allocated, and 2 - the 64mb setting is pretty much a default.

There is an extended discussion of the feature here, I don't know as it will clarify much, but reading it you can understand why it is little understood:

http://www.rojakpot.com/default.aspx?location=1

see under graphics subsystem


----------



## MHYoshimitzu (Jul 1, 2003)

My dad said that he opened the computer up, and saw that the sound and video cards were as far apart as they could be on the slots. He said he didn't want to move them because he read somewhere that static electricity plays a factor in the performance of those two cards, and being close to each other causes static electricity to start between the two. Is there a way to switch the IRQ's manually, like you said, so that they can stay in the same places?


----------



## Rollin' Rog (Dec 9, 2000)

If there is a sound card, that should probably be moved rather than the video card; I really wouldn't worry about static between the cards, just make sure that there is not static discharge in the process of handling them: ground the hands against the case first.

Figuring out how to assign IRQs in the BIOS is a major headache as you can see if you read this instruction; you're welcome to try, I've just never done it or seen many who have:

http://media.fastclick.net/w/get.media?t=n&sid=8030&m=3&f=b&v=1.4&c=543&r=&d=f


----------



## MHYoshimitzu (Jul 1, 2003)

That link just gives me a pop-up, Rog. But I'll tell my dad to give the sound card thing a try.

Edit- My dad switched the sound card. It's now on IRQ 5. The problem still persists though, and froze almost insantaneously when playing Medal of Honor. It's always gameplay though. It never freezes during the intro or when loading a level. It freezes all the time outside the game though. Moving the sound card was probably a good idea though, even though it didn't do anything.


----------



## Rollin' Rog (Dec 9, 2000)

Well, we are really back at the "memory" problem especially with game play like that; 128 mb is just not sufficient.

The only real puzzle is why Windows is not allocating or freeing memory properly even when not game playing.

Also what DirectX version do you have? For any recent game you likely need DirectX 8a. I don't recall whether you told us this or not. But it really seems like memory is the key.


----------



## MHYoshimitzu (Jul 1, 2003)

I have DirectX 8.0. Interesting enough, my Direct3D version is only 7.0, but everything else is 8.0.


----------



## Rollin' Rog (Dec 9, 2000)

Where are you seeing the version information for direct3d?

I would expect it to be the same as DirectX

Perhaps an update would be in order.


----------



## MHYoshimitzu (Jul 1, 2003)

Start/Control Panel/DirectX. Where would I go to get an update for it? The last update was from Medal of Honor, but that was 8.0.


----------



## Rollin' Rog (Dec 9, 2000)

That's interesting, I just recently upgraded my Win98 to 8.0a and there is no Control Panel interface. The only version information I get is by running Dxdiag and that shows it as DirectX 8.0 (4.08.00.0400)

This may be what you have.

The latest version is 9b, but you must make absolutely, positively sure your current Video driver install supports that version. If not you must stick with the 8.0a install.

http://www.microsoft.com/windows/directx/default.aspx?url=/windows/directx/downloads/default.htm

To verify your Adapter/drivers support the latest you need to find the readme or release notes for them at the Vendor's site. Or you may find it in the folder from which the drivers were installed on your hard drive, if the setup file was downloaded there first.

DxDiag's Display tab will tell you what your driver version is.


----------



## MHYoshimitzu (Jul 1, 2003)

I found a problem with my sound card while running all the diagnostics: Your sound card does not support hardware buffering. Sounds will only play back from software buffers.

I'm not sure what the site is for my video card's vendor, I'll check up on that.


----------



## Rollin' Rog (Dec 9, 2000)

Aida32 should take you right there.

Also could you upload another copy of system.ini as system.txt

I'd like to see if either of us might have missed something.


----------



## MHYoshimitzu (Jul 1, 2003)

Here's system.ini. I changed it to system1 because I didn't want to override the first one.


----------



## Rollin' Rog (Dec 9, 2000)

Some how *ConservativeSwapfileUsage=1* has been restored, or perhaps was never removed. I don't know what could have restored it, but its place in the list is after the MinSps, where as it was above it before.

When you remove this entry it must be removed from system.ini, not the saved and renamed text files, so you must run system.ini again from start>run to reopen it. If you make the change to the renamed file, that is the only thing that will be changed.

And although there should be no problem with the min and maxfilecache entries, they are really serving no purpose as the max is about the limit of installed ram anyway, there is no point to it unless you want to limit it at a lower value, which might actually serve some purpose if Windows were using too much there; I don't think it is though.


----------



## MHYoshimitzu (Jul 1, 2003)

I did change it from system.ini before, but I guess is manifested itself again. My computer tends to do that, I have no idea why. Anyway, it is changed now, I'll see if it's back tomorrow or something.


----------



## Rollin' Rog (Dec 9, 2000)

It could happen if a previous registry was restored, but then I think the other entry that was removed would have returned too.

Anyway keep an eye on it, because that is the one thing most likely to affect the way Windows uses real memory in preference to the paging file. Although it's faster, it will also lock up more of it and deplete the resource faster. It definitely could affect game play.


----------



## brushmaster1 (Jun 15, 2002)

I just read this post with interest, since I've just begun having a similar problem. One note I'd like to make...

When editing WIN.INI or SYSTEM.INI, use sysedit (START > RUN> SYSEDIT)
Sysedit will automatically back up the old copy of the file you are editing with a .SYD extension. To get it back, just delete the edited version and rename the old one from .SYD to .INI (or .BAT or .SYS as the case may be)


----------



## brushmaster1 (Jun 15, 2002)

By the way... MY freezing problem began after installing a NIC (I'm having problems networking that machine)...see my post under "Network neighborhood missing" in the Networking forum


----------



## MHYoshimitzu (Jul 1, 2003)

Just something interesting that happened: I had checked Aida32 before I went online, and it said utilization was at 64%. I clicked on IE, and it promptly froze on me. Now, utilization is at 98%, but no sign of freezing (though I'm expecting it to).


----------



## Rollin' Rog (Dec 9, 2000)

Has anything that was "fixed" either with HijackThis or in system.ini returned?


----------



## MHYoshimitzu (Jul 1, 2003)

Logfile of HijackThis v1.95.0
Scan saved at 4:28:06 PM, on 8/24/03
Platform: Windows 98 SE (Win9x 4.10.2222A)
MSIE: Internet Explorer v6.00 SP1 (6.00.2800.1106)

Running processes:
C:\WINDOWS\SYSTEM\KERNEL32.DLL
C:\WINDOWS\SYSTEM\MSGSRV32.EXE
C:\WINDOWS\SYSTEM\MPREXE.EXE
C:\WINDOWS\SYSTEM\mmtask.tsk
C:\WINDOWS\EXPLORER.EXE
C:\WINDOWS\SYSTEM\SYSTRAY.EXE
C:\WINDOWS\SYSTEM\WMIEXE.EXE
C:\WINDOWS\SYSTEM\SPOOL32.EXE
C:\PROGRAM FILES\INTERNET EXPLORER\IEXPLORE.EXE
C:\WINDOWS\SYSTEM\RNAAPP.EXE
C:\WINDOWS\SYSTEM\TAPISRV.EXE
C:\PROGRAM FILES\WINZIP\WINZIP32.EXE
C:\WINDOWS\TEMP\HIJACKTHIS.EXE

R1 - HKCU\Software\Microsoft\Internet Explorer\Main,Default_Page_URL=http://www.talentg.com/
R0 - HKLM\Software\Microsoft\Internet Explorer\Search,CustomizeSearch=
R0 - HKLM\Software\Microsoft\Internet Explorer\Search,SearchAssistant=
R0 - HKCU\Software\Microsoft\Internet Explorer\Main,Local Page=
R0 - HKLM\Software\Microsoft\Internet Explorer\Main,Local Page=
O3 - Toolbar: &Radio - {8E718888-423F-11D2-876E-00A0C9082467} - C:\WINDOWS\SYSTEM\MSDXM.OCX
O4 - HKLM\..\Run: [LoadPowerProfile] Rundll32.exe powrprof.dll,LoadCurrentPwrScheme
O4 - HKLM\..\Run: [SystemTray] SysTray.Exe
O4 - HKLM\..\Run: [ScanRegistry] c:\windows\scanregw.exe /autorun
O4 - HKLM\..\RunServices: [LoadPowerProfile] Rundll32.exe powrprof.dll,LoadCurrentPwrScheme
O8 - Extra context menu item: Download with GetRight - C:\Program Files\GetRight\GRdownload.htm
O8 - Extra context menu item: Open with GetRight Browser - C:\Program Files\GetRight\GRbrowse.htm
O9 - Extra button: Real.com (HKLM)
O9 - Extra button: Messenger (HKLM)
O9 - Extra 'Tools' menuitem: MSN Messenger Service (HKLM)
O9 - Extra button: MoneySide (HKLM)
O9 - Extra button: Messenger (HKLM)
O9 - Extra 'Tools' menuitem: Yahoo! Messenger (HKLM)
O9 - Extra button: Hot Flash (HKLM)
O9 - Extra 'Tools' menuitem: &Search SWF Files (HKLM)
O9 - Extra button: AIM (HKLM)
O12 - Plugin for .swf: C:\PROGRAM FILES\NETSCAPE\COMMUNICATOR\PROGRAM\PLUGINS\NPSWF32.dll
O12 - Plugin for .dcr: C:\PROGRAM FILES\NETSCAPE\COMMUNICATOR\PROGRAM\PLUGINS\NP32DSW.DLL
O16 - DPF: {D27CDB6E-AE6D-11CF-96B8-444553540000} (Shockwave Flash Object) - http://download.macromedia.com/pub/shockwave/cabs/flash/swflash.cab
O16 - DPF: {166B1BCA-3F9C-11CF-8075-444553540000} (Shockwave ActiveX Control) - http://active.macromedia.com/director/cabs/sw.cab
O16 - DPF: {F5C90925-ABBF-4475-88F5-8622B452BA9E} (Compaq System Data Class) - http://www29.compaq.com/falco/SysQuery.cab
O16 - DPF: {9F1C11AA-197B-4942-BA54-47A8489BB47F} (Update Class) - http://v4.windowsupdate.microsoft.com/CAB/x86/ansi/iuctl.CAB?37822.662037037
O16 - DPF: {6B4788E2-BAE8-11D2-A1B4-00400512739B} (PWMediaSendControl Class) - http://216.249.24.140/code/PWActiveXImgCtl.CAB

and system.ini:

[boot]
oemfonts.fon=vgaoem.fon
Shell=Explorer.exe
system.drv=system.drv
drivers=mmsystem.dll power.drv
user.exe=user.exe
gdi.exe=gdi.exe
sound.drv=mmsound.drv
dibeng.drv=dibeng.dll
comm.drv=comm.drv
mouse.drv=mouse.drv
keyboard.drv=keyboard.drv
*DisplayFallback=0
fonts.fon=vgasys.fon
fixedfon.fon=vgafix.fon
386Grabber=vgafull.3gr
display.drv=pnpdrvr.drv

previousProjectorProcessID=0
SCRNSAVE.EXE=C:\WINDOWS\WEBSHOTS.SCR

[keyboard]
keyboard.dll=
oemansi.bin=
subtype=
type=4

[boot.description]
system.drv=Standard PC
mouse.drv=Standard mouse
keyboard.typ=Standard 101/102-Key or Microsoft Natural Keyboard
aspect=100,96,96
display.drv=NVIDIA GeForce4 MX 440

[386Enh]
ebios=*ebios
woafont=dosapp.fon
mouse=*vmouse, msmouse.vxd
device=*dynapage
device=*vcd
device=*vpd
device=*int13
device=*enable
keyboard=*vkd
display=*vdd,*vflatd
EMMExclude=C000-CFFF
device=dva.386
COM2FIFO=1

MinSPs=8
KeyBoostTime=.005

[NonWindowsApp]
TTInitialSizes=4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 18 20 22

[power.drv]

[drivers]
wavemapper=*.drv
MSACM.imaadpcm=*.acm
MSACM.msadpcm=*.acm
MSVideo.VfWWDM=vfwwdm.drv
wave=mmsystem.dll
midi=mmsystem.dll

[iccvid.drv]

[mciseq.drv]

[mci]
cdaudio=mcicda.drv
sequencer=mciseq.drv
waveaudio=mciwave.drv
avivideo=mciavi.drv
videodisc=mcipionr.drv
vcr=mcivisca.drv
MPEGVideo=mciqtz.drv
MPEGVideo2=mciqtz.drv
QTWVideo=C:\WINDOWS\SYSTEM\MCIQTW.DRV

[vcache]
MinFileCache=0
MaxFileCache=117950

[Password Lists]
DEFAULT=C:\WINDOWS\DEFAULT.PWL

[PI]
AutoRun=-1

[MSNP32]

MSACM.trspch=tssoft32.acm

[ScreenTime]
Password Value=0
previousProjectorProcessID=4294603491

[Display]

[drivers32]
msacm.lhacm=lhacm.acm
VIDC.VDOM=vdowave.drv
vidc.CVID=iccvid.dll
VIDC.IV31=C:\WINDOWS\SYSTEM\IR32_32.DLL
VIDC.IV32=C:\WINDOWS\SYSTEM\IR32_32.DLL
vidc.MSVC=msvidc32.dll
VIDC.MRLE=msrle32.dll
msacm.msg723=msg723.acm
vidc.M263=msh263.drv
vidc.M261=msh261.drv
VIDC.IV41=IR41_32.AX
VIDC.IV31=ir32_32.dll
VIDC.IV32=ir32_32.dll
vidc.dvsd=dvc.dll
VIDC.CVID=iccvid.dll
VIDC.VQC2=vqdecode.dll
MSACM.imaadpcm=imaadp32.acm
MSACM.msadpcm=msadp32.acm
MSACM.msgsm610=msgsm32.acm
MSACM.msg711=msg711.acm
VIDC.NSVI=NSVIDEO.dll
VIDC.IYUV=iyuv_32.dll
msacm.sl_anet=sl_anet.acm
msacm.voxacm160=vct3216.acm

It froze twice when I tried to load IE this morning. At the same point, too, just before the window to connect to the internet popped up. Last night it did not freeze at all. Currently utilization is at 98%, and when it first loaded Windows it was at 64%. I didn't put anything else in the background since I last removed all but Systray, Scanregw, and the two LoadPowerProfiles.


----------



## Rollin' Rog (Dec 9, 2000)

It looks ok, but let's try an experiment: instead of the maxfilecache entry you have, change it to:

maxfilecache=65536

This is about half your installed ram and should ensure adequate support there while not allowing Windows to claim too much if that is what is happening.

Also have you tried running the IE Repair Tool in Add/Remove programs > Internet Explorer > Remove > Repair?

Does it report any problems?

One thought that occurs to me is that this is a problem with the bus mastering controllers. Since these are Via drivers they need to be installed with the Via 4in1 utility. In fact if the system was ever formatted they need to be reinstalled or they are not present and their lack can cause problems.

http://www.viaarena.com/?PageID=300


----------



## MHYoshimitzu (Jul 1, 2003)

RAM is not the problem.

How do I know this? We just bought two 128 mb upgrades, bringing our total to 384 mb of RAM. I tried to play Medal of Honor, and it still froze. I think RAM was the problem with the IE freezings, although I can't make that assumption yet. I know the RAM is working, as the programs are running really fast. As I'm typing, the RAM has climbed past the 128 mark and is now at 157. There is definitely something very wrong.


----------



## Rollin' Rog (Dec 9, 2000)

Try the Via 4in1 utility I linked to above then. This is especially important in game play and directx usage.


----------



## MHYoshimitzu (Jul 1, 2003)

Which drivers do you want me to install? And should I have saved the zip file in a particular place?


----------



## Rollin' Rog (Dec 9, 2000)

Save it in a permanent location, other than that it doesn't matter.

I don't think there is any significant difference between the ones in the zip folder and the self executing exe (versions 4.48 and 44.9. The installation instructions appear to be the same for both. They explain the reason for providing both as due to some folks having problems downloading exe files.

From past experience in seeing people install these, it usually goes pretty smoothly, the installation procedure itself will ensure that you have compatible Via controllers.


----------



## MHYoshimitzu (Jul 1, 2003)

I installed it, but how do I know it worked? Can I use Aida32 to check to see if the drivers were installed correctly?


----------



## Rollin' Rog (Dec 9, 2000)

Aida won't identify the drivers. What you need to do is go to the Device Manager and open the properties pages for the IDE and Bus Master and Host controllers. Look at the driver file details there. If they are VIA drivers, and you don't see any red x's or exclamation points there, then the install went fine.


5 VIA Tech PCI to USB Universal Host Controller
5 VIA Tech PCI to USB Universal Host Controller

14 Primary IDE controller (dual fifo)
14 VIA Bus Master PCI IDE Controller
15 Secondary IDE controller (dual fifo)
15 VIA Bus Master PCI IDE Controller


----------



## MHYoshimitzu (Jul 1, 2003)

It says all the drivers are working properly, so they installed. 

It didn't seem to fix it, if anything, it's freezing more now. It took me three restarts before I could finally post this message, and it's a quickreply.


----------



## Rollin' Rog (Dec 9, 2000)

As a test, not a solution, run *msconfig* and click on the Advanced tab. Put a check there in the box for VGA 640x drivers.

Restart and see if it freezes with basic VGA drivers. It will look like it is in Safe Mode, but it is not.

A second test, and do this independently, in the same location, put a check in "Force Compatibility Mode"; this will disable the IDE and Host controller drivers all together. Things will be slower in this configuration where only real mode drivers are used.

See if it does not freeze in either one of those two configurations.


----------



## MHYoshimitzu (Jul 1, 2003)

I will do those things, and I'd like to give you this Aida 32 update:

Physical Memory	
Total	383 MB
Used	312 MB
Free	70 MB
Utilization	82 %

Swap Space	
Total	1664 MB
Used	0 MB
Free	1664 MB
Utilization	0 %

Virtual Memory	
Total	2047 MB
Used	312 MB
Free	1735 MB
Utilization	15 %

Problems & Suggestions	
Suggestion	Install more system memory to improve applications performance.

Installing more RAM obviously isn't going to do the job, as it's using over 300 now.


----------



## Rollin' Rog (Dec 9, 2000)

Swap Space 
Total 1664 MB
Used 0 MB

Has "conservativeswapfileusage" snuck back in?


----------



## kilowatt1 (Oct 27, 2001)

Hello Rog,

I was just wondering. Do you think the win386.swp file is corrupt and not deleting itself after a shut down, and as a result has grown too large to effectively hold anything else? 

Just kicking around some thoughts.


Kilowatt


----------



## MHYoshimitzu (Jul 1, 2003)

[boot]
oemfonts.fon=vgaoem.fon
Shell=Explorer.exe
system.drv=system.drv
drivers=mmsystem.dll power.drv
user.exe=user.exe
gdi.exe=gdi.exe
sound.drv=mmsound.drv
dibeng.drv=dibeng.dll
comm.drv=comm.drv
mouse.drv=mouse.drv
keyboard.drv=keyboard.drv
*DisplayFallback=0
fonts.fon=vgasys.fon
fixedfon.fon=vgafix.fon
386Grabber=vgafull.3gr
;Rem TShoot: display.drv=pnpdrvr.drv
display.drv=vga.drv

previousProjectorProcessID=0
SCRNSAVE.EXE=C:\WINDOWS\WEBSHOTS.SCR
original_display.drv=pnpdrvr.drv

[keyboard]
keyboard.dll=
oemansi.bin=
subtype=
type=4

[boot.description]
system.drv=Standard PC
mouse.drv=Standard mouse
keyboard.typ=Standard 101/102-Key or Microsoft Natural Keyboard
aspect=100,96,96
display.drv=NVIDIA GeForce4 MX 440

[386Enh]
ebios=*ebios
woafont=dosapp.fon
mouse=*vmouse, msmouse.vxd
device=*dynapage
device=*vcd
device=*vpd
device=*int13
device=*enable
keyboard=*vkd
display=*vdd,*vflatd
EMMExclude=C000-CFFF
device=dva.386
COM2FIFO=1

MinSPs=8
KeyBoostTime=.005
ConservativeSwapfileUsage=1

[NonWindowsApp]
TTInitialSizes=4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 18 20 22

[power.drv]

[drivers]
wavemapper=*.drv
MSACM.imaadpcm=*.acm
MSACM.msadpcm=*.acm
MSVideo.VfWWDM=vfwwdm.drv
wave=mmsystem.dll
midi=mmsystem.dll

[iccvid.drv]

[mciseq.drv]

[mci]
cdaudio=mcicda.drv
sequencer=mciseq.drv
waveaudio=mciwave.drv
avivideo=mciavi.drv
videodisc=mcipionr.drv
vcr=mcivisca.drv
MPEGVideo=mciqtz.drv
MPEGVideo2=mciqtz.drv
QTWVideo=C:\WINDOWS\SYSTEM\MCIQTW.DRV

[vcache]
MinFileCache=0
maxfilecache=353869

[Password Lists]
DEFAULT=C:\WINDOWS\DEFAULT.PWL

[PI]
AutoRun=-1

[MSNP32]

MSACM.trspch=tssoft32.acm

[ScreenTime]
Password Value=0
previousProjectorProcessID=4294603491

[Display]

[drivers32]
msacm.lhacm=lhacm.acm
VIDC.VDOM=vdowave.drv
vidc.CVID=iccvid.dll
VIDC.IV31=C:\WINDOWS\SYSTEM\IR32_32.DLL
VIDC.IV32=C:\WINDOWS\SYSTEM\IR32_32.DLL
vidc.MSVC=msvidc32.dll
VIDC.MRLE=msrle32.dll
msacm.msg723=msg723.acm
vidc.M263=msh263.drv
vidc.M261=msh261.drv
VIDC.IV41=IR41_32.AX
VIDC.IV31=ir32_32.dll
VIDC.IV32=ir32_32.dll
vidc.dvsd=dvc.dll
VIDC.CVID=iccvid.dll
VIDC.VQC2=vqdecode.dll
MSACM.imaadpcm=imaadp32.acm
MSACM.msadpcm=msadp32.acm
MSACM.msgsm610=msgsm32.acm
MSACM.msg711=msg711.acm
VIDC.NSVI=NSVIDEO.dll
VIDC.IYUV=iyuv_32.dll
msacm.sl_anet=sl_anet.acm
msacm.voxacm160=vct3216.acm
vidc.DIV3=DivXc32.dll
vidc.DIV4=DivXc32f.dll
vidc.DIVX=DivX.dll
vidc.XVID=xvid.dll
vidc.MPG4=MPG4c32.dll
vidc.MP42=MPG4c32.dll
vidc.MP43=MPG4c32.dll
msacm.l3acm=L3codeca.acm
msacm.l3codec=L3codecp.acm
msacm.vorbis=vorbis.acm
vidc.3ivx=3ivxVfWCodec.dll
msacm.msaudio1=msaud32.acm
VIDC.IV50=ir50_32.dll
msacm.divxa32=divxa32.acm
VIDC.wmv3=wmv9vcm.dll
msacm.iac2=C:\WINDOWS\SYSTEM\IAC25_32.AX

Yes it has...

BTW, I'm running AIM, K-Lite, Aida32, and this window, and have been multitasking for about 15 minutes, and it has not frozen. However, the memory is back around 84% now. So there was no change in the memory, but I can't seem to make it freeze. I don't think Medal of Honor would work under this configuration, so I haven't tried. (I'm doing the VGA experiment)


----------



## Rollin' Rog (Dec 9, 2000)

Well that's interesting, it would point to a video card problem or perhaps heat generated by the card.

But Lol, here it is again 

ConservativeSwapfileUsage=1

Now with that much memory, it really shouldn't matter that this is there and might even be a useful tweak to speed things up.

But how is it happening? Are you seeing any error messages on bootup concerning registry errors or system files?

And look, your maxfilecache setting has changed too:

maxfilecache=353869

This could only happen if you were running an optimizer or cache and memory "booster" of some kind, but I never saw anything in startups.


----------



## MHYoshimitzu (Jul 1, 2003)

Okay, about the whole VGA thing... after running a ridiculously large amount of windows and programs, it finally froze. I am in the middle of the second test, and everything seems to be running much smoother. I saw an "<unknown> file pop up at start up in this start up. Memory is MUCH lower in this stage, at a mere 32%. (It's still 122 mb of RAM, very high if I still had 128 mbs of RAM) Whatever is doing this is reacting quickly to the upgrade I gave it. 
Should I delete conservativeswapfileusage? Oh, and I put the maxfilecache to the number you wanted, whatever it was, so that didn't attract my attention.


----------



## Rollin' Rog (Dec 9, 2000)

That's not the figure I gave (65536), which was for half the amt of ram I thought you had installed at the time.

You can experiment with the conservativeswapfileusage at this point, try to discover if it is freezing more with or with out it.

I'd delete the min and maxfilecache entry though, it's not doing anything for you one way or another.

Very puzzling about the reduced ram usage in "compatibility mode".


----------



## MHYoshimitzu (Jul 1, 2003)

Like the first time, the compatibility mode froze after about 6 windows were opened. Also the RAM is down to 32% again, and it is in normal mode now. Kilowatt1 had an interesting theory above, is there a way to test it?


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## MHYoshimitzu (Jul 1, 2003)

Wait... did you mean uncheck them through msconfig, or actually delete them through system.ini? I deleted conservativeswapfileusage=1, so it probably won't come back for a while. But when it does, and if it shows in msconfig, would it be worth it to delete it through there?


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## Rollin' Rog (Dec 9, 2000)

either/or should work fine; if you deleted it from System.ini it should not show up at all in msconfig.

Oops, I didn't see his post...

It certainly can't hurt to delete the swap file; although it was hardly being used.

Do do it, click Start> Shutdown > Restart in MS-DOS mode. You should be at the c:\windows\> prompt. From there enter each line:

del win386.swp
exit


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## MHYoshimitzu (Jul 1, 2003)

Done. There was no real change in the RAM, but it hasn't frozen yet. I've only been on a few minutes though. Any more suggestions would be appreciated. I thought we were really getting somewhere with the VGA and compatibility tests.


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## Rollin' Rog (Dec 9, 2000)

I was just covering the bases with those, the fact that you froze anyway seems to rule out there being anything there other than some relation to ram usage or possibly heat. If it didn't occur in VGA mode at all it would have made the video card very suspect. In "compatibilty mode", I'm not sure what to have made of that other than perhaps loose controller cables or bad hardware. Maybe unchecking DMA mode on the hard drive properties might have had some effect.

Let's see what happens with the fresh swap file; if you run Aida32 now that you have deleted the conservativeswapfile thing once again, is it showing any swapfile usage? You can also use Taskinfo which I think you downloaded to monitor this in real time as well.


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## MHYoshimitzu (Jul 1, 2003)

Swap file usage is at 4% as I'm typing this. I'll uncheck DMA mode and see what happens.

Edit- Where do you go to uncheck DMA mode?


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## Rollin' Rog (Dec 9, 2000)

Wait on that so as not to complicate the issue; testing one configuration at a time eliminates confusion as to what is happening.

It would be found through the Device Manager's properties > settings page for the hard drive. Not all BIOS configurations make it available, but if it's there it might be interesting to test. With this as with "compatibilty mode" you may see a performance loss with out it.


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## MHYoshimitzu (Jul 1, 2003)

I can't find it, so I either must be doing something wrong, or it doesn't exist in this configuration.


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## Rollin' Rog (Dec 9, 2000)

Don't worry about it then; it's either there or not; the motherboard/BIOS must enable it by default and not provide any mode to disable.


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## MHYoshimitzu (Jul 1, 2003)

Well, just a quick update. It's been freezing a lot more lately, and for no good reason. Ex: I load Windows, it freezes before the background programs and icons load. Then, I restart it, and it's fine, but freezes when I do something else. Based on everything I've said and tried here, where do you think my problem is (hardware or software), and would reformatting my hard drive do anything? This is an absolute last resort for me, as I have many programs that cannot be backed up.


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## Rollin' Rog (Dec 9, 2000)

I think it's a hardware problem as I can't see any software source for it.

One thing you might try is removing your original ram module and just running on the newly installed ones. You might have to move one to the slot occupied by the original.

Also try again to see if you can get any more life out of it by keeping a fan on the open case.


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## MHYoshimitzu (Jul 1, 2003)

I did try the fan thing, and it worked for a little bit. I guess I'll try that again, I've run out of options.


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## Rollin' Rog (Dec 9, 2000)

The freezing without any error messages is really most symptomatic of a heat problem; there might be one other troubleshooting idea to explore, and that would be to disable the L2 (external) cache in the BIOS, this has the effect of stabilizing the processor, making it run somewhat slower and also reducing the heat generation. But it would be hard to determine from that, if successful, whether the problem was actully due to heat, processor instabilty, or a damaged L2 chip on the motherboard.


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## MHYoshimitzu (Jul 1, 2003)

Here's something I just noticed that may have a connection to the freezing. Sometimes, it doesn't matter what I am doing, my computer will "glitch up". That is, icons would become garbled, and information would become difficult to read. I have to hit "Show Desktop" about two or three times before it returns to normal, however, some glitching is still apparent. Also, sometimes the window I am currently using will suddenly become shaded, almost as if something else is loading in the background. The loading only happens with Internet Explorer, and it's usually after the page has finished loading.

Below is an example of glitching on my computer. In fact, as I'm typing this, it is very glitched up. I'm going to restart after this post. This is a problem that started around the same time as the freezing, so it might have something to do with it.


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## Rollin' Rog (Dec 9, 2000)

Normally I would say that is a display driver problem and say reload those or test with lower acceleration. But I think we've already been there.

I can't recall whether you have reinstalled or updated Video drivers though, did you?


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## MHYoshimitzu (Jul 1, 2003)

I did not, only because I wasn't exactly sure what drivers to install.


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## EALA-KMornes (Aug 29, 2003)

I'm betting you have a VIA chipset motherboard. This causes all kinds of somewhat unresolvable problems, particularly with more graphically intensive games.

Please read this article:

http://www.nocrash.com/ncbbs/msgs/1153.shtml

I experienced the same exact problem with many games when I had an AMD system on a VIA chipset motherboard a GeForce card about a year ago. Both of these machines have the same problem. My solution was to replace the computer with a P4 system? I experienced mine with Neverwinter Nights and I learned that lower resolution also prolonged the amount of time I could play before crashing. I tried fans and opening the case didnt matter. Switching video cards to Radeon doesn't fix it either.

You can try this fix:
http://www.amd.com/gb-uk/Processors/TechnicalResources/0,,30_182_871_2336,00.html

Download the Windows® 2000/XP AGP Driver - Microsoft Digitally-Signed, Version 5.33 (Windows® 2000/XP only) - and install it.

Increasing to a more powerful powersupply might help too, but didn't in my case.


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## MHYoshimitzu (Jul 1, 2003)

Chipset Properties	
Motherboard Chipset	VIA VT8363(A) Apollo KT133(A)
CAS Latency	3T
RAS To CAS Delay	3T
RAS Precharge	3T

Memory Slots	
DRAM Slot #1	128 MB (SDRAM)
DRAM Slot #2	128 MB (SDRAM)
DRAM Slot #3	128 MB (SDRAM)

AGP Properties	
AGP Version	2.00
AGP Status	Enabled
AGP Aperture Size	64 MB
Supported AGP Speeds	1x, 2x, 4x
Current AGP Speed	4x
Fast-Write	Supported, Enabled
Side Band Addressing	Supported, Disabled

Chipset Manufacturer	
Company Name	VIA Technologies, Inc.
Product Information	http://www.via.com.tw/en/apollo/chipsetindex.jsp
Driver Download	http://www.viaarena.com/?PageID=2

You'd be right about the VIA chipset motherboard, but I'm using Windows 98:SE. Would the update work on 98, or is it only a 2000/XP solution?


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## Rollin' Rog (Dec 9, 2000)

I don't think that particular update would take at all. The others there, just my 2c/ look to be the same type of update you applied from the Via 4in1 site, just in a different package from AMD. However the Via site does note that some people with Win98 systems might fare better installing one of the older updates. That is something that could be done, but I'd suggest going for the Display driver update first.

I thought I had posted the correct update for you previously, but if not, just repost the current adapter/driver information. I think if you get that from Aida32 it might have a direct link to the Vendor's site as well.

Also, if Aida32 lists the motherboard vendor, post that. That site, above all, would be the best one to get updates from.


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## MHYoshimitzu (Jul 1, 2003)

I think this is what you want:

Motherboard Properties	
Motherboard ID	06/26/2000-VT8363-VT686A-6A6LMF09C-00
Motherboard Name	FIC AZ11/AZ31

Front Side Bus Properties	
Bus Type	DEC Alpha EV6
Bus Width	64-bit
Real Clock	100 MHz (DDR)
Effective Clock	200 MHz
Bandwidth	1600 MB/s

Memory Bus Properties	
Bus Type	SDR SDRAM
Bus Width	64-bit
Real Clock	100 MHz
Effective Clock	100 MHz
Bandwidth	800 MB/s

Chipset Bus Properties	
Bus Type	PCI
Bus Width	32-bit
Real Clock	33 MHz
Effective Clock	33 MHz
Bandwidth	133 MB/s

Motherboard Manufacturer	
Company Name	First International Computer, Inc.
Product Information	http://www.fic.com.tw/product/motherboard
BIOS Download	http://www.fic.com.tw/support/motherboard

Video Adapter Properties	
Device Description	NVIDIA GeForce4 MX 440
Serial Number	nvdisp.drv

Video Adapter Manufacturer	
Company Name	NVIDIA Corporation
Product Information	http://www.nvidia.com/view.asp?PAGE=products
Driver Download	http://www.nvidia.com/drivers


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## Rollin' Rog (Dec 9, 2000)

These are the latest Ge Force drivers here; I would select the primary download site. Download them to a permanent folder and run the setup file from there after closing all programs naturally

http://www.nvidia.com/object/win9x_45.23

As for the motherboard drivers, we installed a later version than those provided on the Fic page. I don't know if that is a problem but it should be possible to install the version they have there, but I would try that only when entirely out of options. I'm not sure how the process goes when you have to uninstall a higher version. You may see the option to uninstall previous drivers as a part of the setup routine; or they may simply do that automatically, but it's just not something I've had any direct experience with.


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## MHYoshimitzu (Jul 1, 2003)

I updated the drivers, but it did nothing. Currently, this problem has become MUCH MUCH worse, as I cannot load Windows AT ALL. It freezes almost always after loading the background items (Explorer, Systray, and my scanner, which I just recently added). When it doesn't, it lets me get so far in IE before freezing (i.e. One or two pages). Currently I am using both of the "experimental" options we used before (Force Compatility and the one that looks like you're in safe mode). This is the ONLY way I've gotten it to stop freezing for even a brief moment. In safe mode, I ran Adaware, Norton Antivirus (updated as of 8/27), and Scandisk. Nothing worked. My dad and I are seriously thinking of reformatting the hard drive, as we've never done that before on this computer. It might do something, we hope. I wanted to know your feelings on reformatting, and if you had any other suggestions that we could try before doing so.
My one theory about this freezing is that there is a rather large program running in the background that is taking up mass amounts of RAM and generally wreaking havoc on this computer. Evidence that points to this is after finishing running Norton's Antivirus for about an hour and a half in safe mode, I checked Aida32, and to my surprise, my computer was using 100% of our 384 mbs of RAM. And yet it did not freeze. When I loaded both of the experimental options, and loaded Windows, I noticed three clear window sillouettes loading in the background. All through this the mouse was an hourglass. I have not checked Aida32 yet for RAM in this state, as I want to get this out to you before my computer decides it's time to freeze again. If you have anything to suggest, please say it soon as school is starting and I need this computer for word processing as well as going online and playing games.


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## Rollin' Rog (Dec 9, 2000)

Did you check the system.ini file again to see if that conservativeswapfile usage had somehow mysteriously returned?

But either way, something is beyond my understanding here. It doesn't seem to me like it is fundamentally a software issue, but that software can aggravate it.

The only way you are going to know this for sure though is to see if it persists after a format.

By the way, I don't know if we ever tried the BIOS option of disabling L2 cache for a test. Do you know how to access the BIOS.


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## MHYoshimitzu (Jul 1, 2003)

I don't think it's there, but you can check to see if I skipped it:

[boot]
oemfonts.fon=vgaoem.fon
Shell=Explorer.exe
system.drv=system.drv
drivers=mmsystem.dll power.drv
user.exe=user.exe
gdi.exe=gdi.exe
sound.drv=mmsound.drv
dibeng.drv=dibeng.dll
comm.drv=comm.drv
mouse.drv=mouse.drv
keyboard.drv=keyboard.drv
*DisplayFallback=0
fonts.fon=vgasys.fon
fixedfon.fon=vgafix.fon
386Grabber=vgafull.3gr
;Rem TShoot: display.drv=pnpdrvr.drv
display.drv=vga.drv

previousProjectorProcessID=0
SCRNSAVE.EXE=C:\WINDOWS\WEBSHOTS.SCR
original_display.drv=pnpdrvr.drv

[keyboard]
keyboard.dll=
oemansi.bin=
subtype=
type=4

[boot.description]
system.drv=Standard PC
mouse.drv=Standard mouse
keyboard.typ=Standard 101/102-Key or Microsoft Natural Keyboard
aspect=100,96,96
display.drv=NVIDIA GeForce4 MX 440

[386Enh]
ebios=*ebios
woafont=dosapp.fon
mouse=*vmouse, msmouse.vxd
device=*dynapage
device=*vcd
device=*vpd
device=*int13
device=*enable
keyboard=*vkd
display=*vdd,*vflatd
EMMExclude=C000-CFFF,C000-CFFF
device=dva.386
COM2FIFO=1

MinSPs=8
KeyBoostTime=.005
MinPagingFileSize=392656
PagingDrive=C:

[NonWindowsApp]
TTInitialSizes=4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 18 20 22

[power.drv]

[drivers]
wavemapper=*.drv
MSACM.imaadpcm=*.acm
MSACM.msadpcm=*.acm
MSVideo.VfWWDM=vfwwdm.drv
wave=mmsystem.dll
midi=mmsystem.dll

[iccvid.drv]

[mciseq.drv]

[mci]
cdaudio=mcicda.drv
sequencer=mciseq.drv
waveaudio=mciwave.drv
avivideo=mciavi.drv
videodisc=mcipionr.drv
vcr=mcivisca.drv
MPEGVideo=mciqtz.drv
MPEGVideo2=mciqtz.drv
QTWVideo=C:\WINDOWS\SYSTEM\MCIQTW.DRV

[vcache]

[Password Lists]
DEFAULT=C:\WINDOWS\DEFAULT.PWL

[PI]
AutoRun=-1

[MSNP32]

MSACM.trspch=tssoft32.acm

[ScreenTime]
Password Value=0
previousProjectorProcessID=4294603491

[Display]

[drivers32]
msacm.lhacm=lhacm.acm
VIDC.VDOM=vdowave.drv
vidc.CVID=iccvid.dll
VIDC.IV31=C:\WINDOWS\SYSTEM\IR32_32.DLL
VIDC.IV32=C:\WINDOWS\SYSTEM\IR32_32.DLL
vidc.MSVC=msvidc32.dll
VIDC.MRLE=msrle32.dll
msacm.msg723=msg723.acm
vidc.M263=msh263.drv
vidc.M261=msh261.drv
VIDC.IV41=IR41_32.AX
VIDC.IV31=ir32_32.dll
VIDC.IV32=ir32_32.dll
vidc.dvsd=dvc.dll
VIDC.CVID=iccvid.dll
VIDC.VQC2=vqdecode.dll
MSACM.imaadpcm=imaadp32.acm
MSACM.msadpcm=msadp32.acm
MSACM.msgsm610=msgsm32.acm
MSACM.msg711=msg711.acm
VIDC.NSVI=NSVIDEO.dll
VIDC.IYUV=iyuv_32.dll
msacm.sl_anet=sl_anet.acm
msacm.voxacm160=vct3216.acm
vidc.DIV3=DivXc32.dll
vidc.DIV4=DivXc32f.dll
vidc.DIVX=DivX.dll
vidc.XVID=xvid.dll
vidc.MPG4=MPG4c32.dll
vidc.MP42=MPG4c32.dll
vidc.MP43=MPG4c32.dll
msacm.l3acm=L3codeca.acm
msacm.l3codec=L3codecp.acm
msacm.vorbis=vorbis.acm
vidc.3ivx=3ivxVfWCodec.dll
msacm.msaudio1=msaud32.acm
VIDC.IV50=ir50_32.dll
msacm.divxa32=divxa32.acm
VIDC.wmv3=wmv9vcm.dll
msacm.iac2=C:\WINDOWS\SYSTEM\IAC25_32.AX

I have no idea how to access the BIOS. I'd probably need a step by step guide.

On a lighter note, my computer has not frozen since I initiated the experimental options. Aida32 reports that I'm using 52% of 384 mbs of RAM. This safe mode stuff is beginning to hurt my eyes. This might be the mini solution I've been waiting for until we can afford a new computer, if this holds up. I'm confident it can word process in this state, and use the internet, but not play games. That's good enough for me, as long as it holds up. My eyes however, will not survive this mode for long. I've been on for 2 hours and 10 minutes, doing different things online, which is a good sign. Maybe we're onto something if it didn't freeze in this mode. It froze seperately, and in normal mode, but not in safe mode or this mode. If the BIOS thing doesn't work, then I'll consider reformatting again. Anyway, good night, it's almost a day before school starts and I want to sleep in.


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## Rollin' Rog (Dec 9, 2000)

Let's just try re-enabling one of those troubleshooting options then. Put the video driver back to normal mode and see how it goes by unchecking VGA mode in the msconfig > advanced section. If it starts freezing recheck that and uncheck "force compatibility mode" see if you can isolate it to just one of those areas.

Maybe we should go back to a previous set of video drivers if the current ones made things worse.

Also delete these lines from system.ini:

MinPagingFileSize=392656
PagingDrive=C:

And make sure under System Properties > performance > virtual memory, that it is set to "let Windows manage".


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## MHYoshimitzu (Jul 1, 2003)

I thought I told you that I was using both troublshooting options and that it was working fine. Of course, my computer has a tendency to stop whatever solution's working, forcing me to another temporary one. Are you telling me to just check one of those and see if it freezes now? If both of them are checked and it's working, but neither one did before, wouldn't it be a combination of problems? I'll try it anyway.


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## Rollin' Rog (Dec 9, 2000)

I didn't remember whether you had tried one at a time before. I just find it difficult to conceive of what the real problem is when it requires both those items to be checked for you not to freeze.

I'm wondering if the power supply might be an issue.

Also, here's something we haven't looked into. If you start up in Safe Mode, and look through the Devices listed in the Device Manager, do you see duplicates for any devices, such as Hard Disk controllers and video adapters or any installed cards?


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## MHYoshimitzu (Jul 1, 2003)

Yes! Many, many things are repeated. Since I couldn't copy and paste the whole thing, I included the most interesting ones, the ones that I thought were affecting the problem, repeating ones, and the ones that were very similar to each other. 

Monitors:

Default Monitor (2)
Delta DC-770
Plug and Play Monitor (3)

Network Adapters:

Dial Up Adapter
Dial Up Adapter #2
MS Visual Private Networking Adapter

(As far as I know, we only use one of these.)

Disk Drives:
Generic IDE DISK TYPE 47
Generic NEC Floppy Disk
10 Mega Zip 100

(10 MegaZip is a zip drive that we're going to save all our information on when we reformat.)

Display Adapters:
NVIDIA GeForce4 MX 440
NVIDIA Vanta

CD-ROM:
(Unintelligble charcters, "|" and an Euro symbol alternately)
48x12x50 CD-RW
DVDROM 1 Ox (2)
DVDROM 0x
DVDROM 8x (2)
Hitachi DVD-ROM GD-5000
" " -7000
" " -7500
MTK 1221 BTC BDV212B (2)

(I have one CD-RW drive and one DVD/CD-ROM drive.)

And the big one...

Sound, video, and game controllers:

ESS Allegro PCI Audio (WDM) (4)
Gameport Joystick (4)
HID-compliant game controller (4)
MPV-401 Compatible MIDI device (4)

System Devices:
ACPI IRQ Holder for PCI IRQ steering (4)
Direct memory access controller (2)
IRQ Holder for PCI steering
Motherboard Resources (2)
Numeric Data Processor (2)

Some of them, like Direct Memory Access Controller, really caught my eye. Could this have something to do with the freezing?


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## Rollin' Rog (Dec 9, 2000)

Yes that certainly is a mess. And you might be right about the DMA access controller too.

I am one to proceed conservatively when confronted with problems like that.

I would start by removing the multiple default and plug and play monitors and the Vanta video adapter; leaving the identified monitor IF that is your current Monitor. If not remove that too and Windows will probably just give you a plug and play monitor driver which usually is adequate. 



The Disk drives look ok.

As for DVD drives, what is actually currently installed and what you see in the Device Manager in Normal mode? I would leave that and delete the others.

Sound, Video and Game controllers could be a challenge if Windows does not reinstall the drivers for them, but I think we should be able to track it down if not.

I would leave the DMA controller for last and see how we progress up to there.

I would do this in sets, not all at once, so as not to give Windows too much to figure out at once.

I'm also ignoring the dialup adapters and Virtual Private Networking for now, as no need to gamble on losing that and not being able to get back on line, though if you have your Windows CD, it should theoretically not be a problem to reinstall.


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## MHYoshimitzu (Jul 1, 2003)

Windows gives me a default monitor (which is probably the one I'm using now) and an AOC A770. This make sense because we once used a monitor from our old Gateway 2000 (over 10 years old) to see if the monitor was the problem. We couldn't see if it was the problem because that monitor wasn't working correctly either. Is it okay to remove the AOC A770 one too? Delta SC-770 was not on the list. 

Something else to note is that now the Standard Floppy Disk Controller, the Primary Bus Master IDE Controller, and the Secondary IDE Controller all have yellow exclamations next to them. When I try to update the drivers, they fail. I think that updating Windows would be a good idea as it changed my homepage to the Windows Update page the other day and I ignored it.


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## MHYoshimitzu (Jul 1, 2003)

Update- my computer has done this a few times in the past, but it can't recognise the CD-ROM drives right now. They are completely gone from the system, almost as if they never existed. They don't show up in My Computer or the System Properties, and yet they open. It's a very strange phenomenon that only happens every once in a while, but I think removing those other ones once they are recognised again might help.


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## griffinspc (Nov 16, 2001)

Jumping in here Rog. A long shot but simple to determine. What would you say to deleting the APPLOG folder and rebooting. Is it possible that the original problem was a corrupted file or files in APPLOG? That would account for IE and scandisk.

I admit to not reading every word in the entire 9 pages but most. LOL.


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## Rollin' Rog (Dec 9, 2000)

You will see the yellow exclamation points in "force compatibility mode" because it doesn't load those drivers. The IDE drivers were the ones you updated from VIA, so if that continues in normal mode, just reinstall those or get the older version from the motherboard site.

The monitor won't be a serious problem one way or another you can remove all of those, Windows will find something for you and you can always hunt down the drivers for your current model at your leisure.

The issue with the CD-rom drive may also relate to the "force compatibility mode". Some how you are opening it through real mode drivers; I don't remember if your autoexec.bat and config.sys files loaded those or not.

Once you've cleaned up the Device Manager a little bit, be sure you go back to msconfig and uncheck force compatibility mode and see if there is any improvement.

We may need to work our way down to system devices as you really should not have multiples of those other than the pci steering, which is normal

>> Griff: while it certainly wouldn't hurt, the issue has persisted during clean boots when Taskmon would not be running and accessing the applog folder.


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## griffinspc (Nov 16, 2001)

Makes sense. I was looking back at his first post statement, "The one thing I can say it always freezes in is when I try to run a full systems diagnostic using Ad-aware or Nortons.".

If I'm not mistaken Norton references the APPLOG in all it's diagnostic and speed disk functions. Ad-Aware, I'm not sure of of what it accesses.


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## MHYoshimitzu (Jul 1, 2003)

That doesn't apply to safe mode, Griff. I ran a full virus check a few days ago in that mode. No viruses. But I haven't unchecked Force Compatibility and VGA yet because it seems to be working, and I don't want to mess with something that works. I'll change back once I remove the extra stuff under device manager. (Waiting for my dad to get home so I can show him this weird phenomeneon and see if he can shed some light on it.


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## griffinspc (Nov 16, 2001)

Luck to you MHY :~)


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## MHYoshimitzu (Jul 1, 2003)

I removed all the monitor things except for one Plug and Play in Safe mode, unchecked the two options in msconfig, and restarted. Nothing has happened yet, but I'm guessing this was the cause of my glitching problem. I'm moving on to the video and then the DVD drivers. the CD-ROM drives still haven't shown up, but hitting the reset button on the tower usually brings it back. I'll let you know what happens from there.

(Edit- normal mode still shows the default monitor and the one monitor thing that did not appear in safe mode.)


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## MHYoshimitzu (Jul 1, 2003)

I unchecked the CD-Rom stuff and the NVIDIA thing, and everything seems to be running okay. I got my CD-ROM drives recognised after it froze once. The problem isn't solved, but other than that, there are no feasable problems. Now I'm ready for the sound, video, and game controllers as well as the system devices.

Well, we didn't solve the problem exactly, but at least I can load Windows normally now. It's back to the way it was. We're slowly backtracking it seems, so we're making progress.


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## Rollin' Rog (Dec 9, 2000)

It may well prove to be boom or bust on the system devices duplicates (other than the pci steering which is just a traffic cop for shared IRQs).

But I'm glad to hear you've got back to "normal" Windows, I think the Vanta adapter must have been claiming resources needed by the Geforce one.


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## MHYoshimitzu (Jul 1, 2003)

Should I remove all the ones that are duplicated, minus the PCI Steering one then?


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## Rollin' Rog (Dec 9, 2000)

All I can tell you is I don't have any duplicates in mine other than pci steering; so if you really want to try normalizing things, yes. I just can't guarantee it is risk free, but Windows should be expected to reinstall system devices like that without so much as a prompt.


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## MHYoshimitzu (Jul 1, 2003)

Nothing is ever risk free with this computer, so I'll try it soon enough. The next time it freezes tonight, I'll go and change it.


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## Rollin' Rog (Dec 9, 2000)

Good idea, it always helps to develop a reference to evaluate changes from.


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## MHYoshimitzu (Jul 1, 2003)

Lol, well, it froze, and now I'm confused. This is what's currently running in normal mode under sounds, video, and game controllers:

ESS Allegro PCI Audio (WDM)
VIA AC'97 Audio Controller

That's it. Now take a look up in one of the previous posts at what's installed there. Which ones should I get rid of, if there are only two things running in normal mode? Is it the normal mode, or the safe mode options that are correct?


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## Rollin' Rog (Dec 9, 2000)

Is the ESS allegro an installed Card? The motherboard sound chip is the VIA AC'97 Audio Controler, and the vendor site has different drivers for that. If the ESS Allegro is an installed card, then it must have come with a drivers disk? If so you will need that after removing all the duplicates.

The motherboard site had different sound drivers for the Via chip. I wonder if you need to disable that (not remove it) through the Device Manager to avoid a conflict.


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## MHYoshimitzu (Jul 1, 2003)

The ESS Allegro is the sound card that came with our computer. As for the other one, I have no idea.


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## Rollin' Rog (Dec 9, 2000)

Was the system purchased new from a major vendor? Did it come with a drivers disk for the sound?

Ess has a drivers page here,

http://www.esstech.com/techsupp/drivers.shtm

I'm just not sure which is the correct one, if any. Your motherboard Vendor only shows drivers for the Via audio controller.

http://www.fic.com.tw/support/motherboard/doc/driver_via.aspx


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## MHYoshimitzu (Jul 1, 2003)

Everex (the company that was selling our computer) did not give us any sort of drivers or anything with the computer. We didn't even get a Windows 98 CD with it. Everex doesn't support our computer anymore, so obtaining one through them is unlikely.


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## Rollin' Rog (Dec 9, 2000)

Ess has a pci audio device identifier here, I don't think it will hurt to give it a run and see what data it produces:

http://www.esstech.com/techsupp/faq-identify.shtm#audiodevice

Looks like both could be found here if necessary...

http://www.pbnec.nl/support/drv/cat445.html


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## MHYoshimitzu (Jul 1, 2003)

Well, the Windows update website seemed to update the correct drivers for this computer. Sound, video, everything. I think this computer has a problem with replacing drivers during updating. That would explain the multiple drivers in safe mode, and possibly the freezing. Do you think removing the drivers that aren't the ones normal mode produces is a good idea, and should I back it up beforehand? I can always update windows again and get the drivers back, as long as this won't completely kill the computer if I do it wrong.


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## Rollin' Rog (Dec 9, 2000)

I'm not sure I would count on Windows update to get you the latest, but I'm surprised to hear it works at all in updating your drivers, most people don't have much luck with that.

The "ghost" entried most likely occurred either from switching cards around or just from the process of removing and reinstalling in normal mode, or perhaps when the operating system was reinstalled. Sometimes their are slight differences in what is detected.

To be able to eliminate the duplicates effectively, you are pretty much obligated to remove all or you will likely find it will not do a complete job or will simply reinstall what you removed.

For the Video and Sound Drivers, you can certainly use the Update Driver option, if all is working fine after that, I wouldn't worry about it, even if they aren't the latest and greatest.

Modem drivers are a little more problematic but usually Windows knows where they are on the system unless you have previously changed modems and installed something else.


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## MHYoshimitzu (Jul 1, 2003)

Well, it did exactly what I thought it would do. Last night, it froze in the force compatibility and VGA 640x480 mode. This is typical of my computer's problematic history, these problems following me through every temporary solution that I have. I talked to someone else who bought their computer from HSN (Home Shopping Network) and they said they have to reformat their hard drive every few months because of a similar problem. I'm thinking that's the way to go, even if it's another temporary solution. It'll at least buy us time to save for a new computer.


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## Rollin' Rog (Dec 9, 2000)

Well at this point I'm as curious as you to see whether this will persist after a format. It will certainly reveal whether the problem is software or hardware related.

Did a Microsoft installation CD or an OEM recovery CD come with it? How about a motherboard CD?

The former would probably require you to reinstall the motherboard drivers either from the motherboard CD or the motherboard vendor site. Your video drivers also may not be included in the MS CD.

Make sure you have the ProductKey before you proceed.


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## MHYoshimitzu (Jul 1, 2003)

Our computer came with a bunch of CDs. None of the ones you mentioned were among them. Almost everything was preloaded, with few CDs to back them up.


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## Rollin' Rog (Dec 9, 2000)

You are not going to be able to format then -- unless of course there is a System Recovery CD of some kind among what you got, it will do that job for you and return to the system to its original state. But to do a format, you will need an MS CD to reinstall from. 

Take a close look at what you have. You are looking for anthing that says "recovery" or "restore" on it.

It's possible the recovery method utilizes a hidden partition, but you would still need the software provided by the vendor to access it.


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## MHYoshimitzu (Jul 1, 2003)

What my dad was thinking was to search all of our CDs in the house. He's relatively sure we have a Windows 95 CD, and a Windows 98 upgrade to Windows 95. Then, once we get Windows installed, we go online and download the latest upgrade to Windows 98. This is of course assuming we have the Windows CDs.


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## Rollin' Rog (Dec 9, 2000)

There is no "upgrade" to Win98 that you can download. So if you update to Win98 First Edition through CD's, that's as far as you get. One good thing is that you don't need to install Win95 first if you have the Win98 "upgrade", you just install the Upgrade and when prompted, insert the 95 CD to prove that you have it. 

It will have IE 4.01, so you will also have to update Internet Explorer (from the IE Homepage). And I don't believe the Windows Update site is any longer available to Win98 users, so it may be difficult to find and install Win98 security fixes. You might want to check that out, I'm not really sure what is happening there.

Although idea is technically feasible, you may find the task of getting things back to be enormously time consuming. I doubt that either your video drivers, sound drivers or motherboard drivers will be reinstalled through that process. So for each you will have to download them through the motherboard vendor's site. At least you know where that is now.

By the way, did you succeed in removing all the "duplicates" from the Device Manager in Safe Mode?


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## MHYoshimitzu (Jul 1, 2003)

I stopped at the Sound, Video, and Game devices because I wasn't sure what to remove.


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## Rollin' Rog (Dec 9, 2000)

You would have to remove all of them, and if something is not reinstalled automatically, then note which device it is and get the drivers from the appropriate vendor site. If you're not sure what that is, I'll tell you, but you won't know until you try.

If you try a format, you're going to end up doing that anyway, and a lot more besides.


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## MHYoshimitzu (Jul 1, 2003)

I've done backing up my files and programs onto CDs. My dad needs to do the same. We found our Windows 98 CD, but there's a catch. Our Windows 95 CD is an upgrade to Windows 3.1. I'm not sure if we have 3.1 around somewhere, but the point is that we don't have an OS to put on the computer once it's wiped clean.

Is using my friend's Windows 98 CD illegal? We bought the computer, and it came with 98: SE, so therefore logic says that I should be able to load any Windows 98:SE CD and use it. 

The other option was to go out and get XP. Now, if this doesn't work, then we just wasted 100 dollars, as any new computer we buy now will come with XP. Is this a good investment, or should we go to something completely different, such as Linux?

I think we're just about ready to reformat, so I'm waiting for the okay from my dad. Reinstalling all the drivers shouldn't be a problem, though I have one question. Can I just install the latest drivers onto the respective programs, or do I have to go and install each individual one?

Thank you for your help through all of this. Once we reformat, we'll be sure to see what the real problem is.


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## Rollin' Rog (Dec 9, 2000)

Technically I have to tell you that using a friends CD is illegal, but you have to make your own ethical judgement. MS has ceased to support Win98 all together, so I really don't think they care a hoot.

I'm not sure about what relationship there is between your Win98 CD and your Win95 upgrade. A full install Win98 CD can be used; and if it is an upgrade, it will just prompt you to insert a previous version for verification.

My preference would be to use a full install Win98 SE CD; some times a "don't ask, don't tell" policy is best when in a pinch.

However, having said all this, let me warn you one last time. Your computer was an OEM install that included drivers that will not be reinstalled from an MS System CD. So you will need to after install such things as motherboard drivers, video drivers, and probably sound as well. Until then you will have only VGA video and probably no sound. And you likely will not be able to play games successfully until the Via 4in1 drivers are installed.


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## MHYoshimitzu (Jul 1, 2003)

The Windows 95 CD is also an upgrade, so 3.1 would be the only one we have a full version of, if any. I think it would be best to just borrow from my friend.


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## MHYoshimitzu (Jul 1, 2003)

Okay, a lot of things have happened since I last posted, so let me fill you in.

For starters, my dad went and bought an XP upgrade. There were problems with the installation, and we ended up getting it to install after the fifth time. It worked beautifully for two days after that. Then the SAME EXACT PROBLEM cropped up again. It's not as frequent as in 98, but I guess that can go to XP's "stability". I'm currently downloading a video card driver for XP as I'm typing. Any suggestions?


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## Rollin' Rog (Dec 9, 2000)

Hard to know what to make of it. This raises an interesting question though, for which I don't know the answer. If you have activated the XP installation on this system, can you move it to another and still get it registered?

If it turns out you have unresolvable hardware problems, that may be your only recourse.

Anyway it may be about time to start an entirely new thread in the XP forum.

Here's a good website to start you off in XP with:

http://www.kellys-korner-xp.com/xp_abc.htm

I'd also recommend promply saving a full log of msinfo32 data to capture a snapshot of the original hardware and software data.

http://support.microsoft.com/?kbid=308549

And do the same with Aida32.


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## MHYoshimitzu (Jul 1, 2003)

I think this might be the problem: My dad ran our Antivirus program, and it found three MSBlaster viruses on our system. Could that have been the cause? There have been no freezes since then. I uninstalled Medal of Honor, mainly because it gave me too much of a headache to figure out. I'll install it again later.


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## Rollin' Rog (Dec 9, 2000)

It might have been; you need to install the latest security patches for XP.

Start with this one:

http://forums.techguy.org/t163821/s.html

You should also enable the firewall.

http://www.microsoft.com/WindowsXP/home/using/howto/homenet/icf.asp


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## MHYoshimitzu (Jul 1, 2003)

Both done. We installed all the updates a few nights ago.


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## MHYoshimitzu (Jul 1, 2003)

http://forums.techguy.org/showthread.php?s=&postid=1152394#post1152394

The new thread I made in the XP section can be found there.


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## Couriant (Mar 26, 2002)

with regards to the MSBlaster worm / virus, that was not around when you had the problem, plus it only targets NT platform computers (W2K, WXP). You probably got it when it first was made aware in september when you installed Windows XP.


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