# There Was Zero Evidence Election Fraud?



## Chawbacon

Just a thread to track and discuss the accusations/rebuttals resulting from forensic audits and other investigations of the 2020 Election that are ongoing in Arizona and Georgia with potentially more States to be added.

*Please note that this is not intended to be another Bash Trump thread. As in, I do not care about inflammatory statements that Trump, Biden, or their surrogates, have to say about any process, organization, or individual involved in the audit process. Rather this is a thread to seriously look at election integrity and to analyze reported information when it comes to the various State voting processes. So please try to stay on topic. *



> Audit team reports 74,000-ballot discrepancy in Arizona mail-in votes (wnd.com)
> According to Cyber Ninjas...
> 
> 74,243 ballots were counted for which there is no corresponding record that they were mailed out.
> 3,981 people who voted who were registered to vote after an Oct. 15 deadline
> 11,326 people who voted who were not on the rolls on Nov. 7, but were on Dec. 4
> 18,000 voted, but were removed from the rolls after the election







> New Evidence Indicates Enough Illegal Ballots in Georgia to Tip 2020 Results (electionwiz.com)
> After excluding moves with effective dates within 30 days of the general election, and by using data available from the Georgia Secretary of State's Office, Davis identified nearly *35,000 Georgia voters* who indicated they had moved from one Georgia county to another, but then voted in the 2020 general election in the county from which they had moved...
> 
> ...Davis's work is consistent with an earlier analysis conducted by the Voter Integrity Project (VIP) which showed more than 20,000 people who voted in Georgia did not meet the state's residency requirements.


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## Johnny b

Interesting sources. ( lol )

Personally, I think Infowars is a lot more....err.....colorful.


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## Wino

Porn sites have better political info than either of these sources ! LOL


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## Johnny b

Chawbacon said:


> ...................
> 
> ..............................* this is a thread to seriously look at election integrity and to analyze reported information when it comes to the various State voting processes. *


About all that will get posted here at the present time, are the headlines of news outlets and the resulting articles.
And at that, some with intense bias.

Claims seem to come and go with Trumplicans.

IMO, better to review from a broad spectrum approach to get a more complete understanding and view of the election.
That means the reading of more than just Trumplican shills.
Focusing on claims made by a group employed by Trump backers will only bring out an incredibly biased result.

Trump lost.
Get over it.


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## Johnny b

Wino said:


> Porn sites have better political info than either of these sources ! LOL


lol.

Well, the header at Election Wizard says it all
https://electionwiz.com/
* The #1 Source for Populist News & Wizardly Takes  *

Currently, context of the term 'populist' would be an appeal to Trumplicans.
You know...Qanon, radical anarchist libertarians, Maga Nationalists ( fascists ), and elements of the Fundamentalist movement, and illegal militias.

I wonder what a 'Wizardly Take' is? 
Some kind of bizarre logic, I suspect


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## Wino

JB - I'll check with the ghost of Carlos Castaneda to get "Wizard Take" clarified for ya and get back atcha!!


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## Johnny b

lol.

I had to do a search of Carlos. Never heard of him before your post.

( Good one  )


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## Wino

Have couple of his "brujo" books - from my Hippie days.🤪


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## Johnny b

Chawbacon said:


> ............................* Rather this is a thread to seriously look at election integrity and to analyze reported information when it comes to the various State voting processes. .......................*


*" analyze reported information " *......what does that even mean?

Trump's people early on in his administration used sophistry to replace 'facts' with 'alternate facts'. A non sequitur.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Formal_fallacy
Apparently an attempt to present lies frequently enough, until they are accepted as truth.



> While a logical argument is a non sequitur if, and only if, it is invalid, the term "non sequitur" typically refers to those types of invalid arguments which do not constitute formal fallacies covered by particular terms (e.g., affirming the consequent). In other words, in practice, "_non sequitur_" refers to an unnamed formal fallacy.


We continually see Trump backed claims of evidence that are too often not presented, flawed or shown to be absurd.
Shouldn't you be calling the Ninja Cyber claims ....." alternate evidence" ?
Seems fitting, imo. Just more BS from the DJT cult. Endlessly repeated.
Don't seem to be any more correct than the sophistry of 'alternate facts".

Anyway:



> *AP: Few AZ voter fraud cases, discrediting Trump's claims*


https://apnews.com/article/business...lection-2020-e6158cd1b0c6442716064e6791b4c6fc

Interesting article at Slate:

* We Now Know Exactly What the Trump-Backed Arizona "Audit" Is Going to Do *
https://slate.com/news-and-politics/2021/07/trump-declares-victory-arizona-audit-debunked.html

Both articles are current.
Jack....read them or not read them. In the scheme of things, it doesn't matter whether you do or don't.....


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## Johnny b

Hey Jack......the news outlet you love to hate 

* 'A propaganda tool' for Trump: A second federal judge castigates attorneys who filed a lawsuit challenging the 2020 results *

https://www.washingtonpost.com/poli...392266-e661-11eb-b722-89ea0dde7771_story.html


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## Johnny b

Shocking 

* 'This is really fantastical': Federal judge in Michigan presses Trump-allied lawyers on 2020 election fraud claims in sanctions hearing *

https://www.washingtonpost.com/poli...cd2_story.html?itid=lk_interstitial_manual_10


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## Johnny b

Oh my goodness!!!!!

* Inside the 'shadow reality world' promoting the lie that the presidential election was stolen *
https://www.washingtonpost.com/poli...on-was-stolen/?itid=lk_interstitial_manual_14

Shocking, just shocking I tell you!


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## Johnny b

The courts aren't pleased with the lies:

* Trump Lawyers Who Spread False Election Claims Are Now Defending Themselves In Court *
https://www.npr.org/2021/07/16/1016...tion-claims-are-now-defending-themselves-in-c


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## Johnny b

*Texas attorney general says bar probe is unconstitutional*
https://news.yahoo.com/texas-attorney-general-says-bar-200519054.html

Texas attorney general Paxton was involved in attempting to overturn the 2020 election, now attempts to place himself above the law.
Perhaps even like a 'mini Trump' with executive like privileges that could potentially appear to result in a defacto dictator at a state level.



Chawbacon said:


> Just a thread to track and discuss the accusations/rebuttals resulting from forensic audits and other investigations of the 2020 Election that are ongoing in Arizona and Georgia with potentially more States to be added.
> 
> *Please note that this is not intended to be another Bash Trump thread. As in, I do not care about inflammatory statements that Trump, Biden, or their surrogates, have to say about any process, organization, or individual involved in the audit process. Rather this is a thread to seriously look at election integrity and to analyze reported information when it comes to the various State voting processes. So please try to stay on topic. *


There is a flaw in the logic of your opening post, Jack.
How can we discuss the 2020 election integrity with out realizing the integrity of those making/presenting the wild claims of fraud that you allude to?

Paxton not only has the fraud issue to address, according to that article, he also has a checkered past.

From the article:


> Paxton pleaded not guilty in a state securities fraud case, which has been stalled since 2015. He has broadly denied wrongdoing in the separate criminal probe launched after his then-top deputies reported him to the FBI last year for alleged bribery and abuse of office.


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## Johnny b

Interesting article at Slate.
Cruelty, the Big Lie and proof of loyalty.
With Trump, it starts with hilarious lies and traverses easily to dangerous ones.
The clueless whopper and the sly distortion become immaterial.
The issue is one of the followers proving loyalty.
And their repetition to breed acceptance in others.
It's about creating the power to do what ever they damn well want to do.

* The Lies Were Always the Point *
https://slate.com/news-and-politics...oblem-republicans-sidney-powell-lin-wood.html

IMO, a good read and explains the mentality behind the plot for acceptance of Trump's Big Lie about election fraud.

Lead paragraph:


> If Adam Serwer is correct and the cruelty was the point for Trump's Republican Party from 2016 to 2020, then post-2020, it is possible that the lie has become the point. Incubating, amplifying, and polishing lies is now the full-time occupation of much of the GOP. Faced with the choice between governing and lying, they have decided to be purveyors of fiction.


* Adam Serwer On New Book: 'The Cruelty Is The Point' In Trump's America *
https://www.npr.org/2021/06/27/1010...ook-the-cruelty-is-the-point-in-trump-america

This stands out:


> Trump is not essential to Trumpism. The politics of cruelty that Trump's employed are a product of a system that encourages a minority of the country to engineer the government so that they are no longer accountable to the public. And what - Trump's real innovation was showing how much of that the Republican Party can get away with.


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## Wino

Fascism personified !🤬


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## valis

Johnny b said:


> lol.
> 
> I had to do a search of Carlos. Never heard of him before your post.
> 
> ( Good one  )


That surprises me....i know you are well read (even outside of engine manuals). Ive read him but never really understood him.

Fairly certain he wasnt one of the more sober persons in any given situation.


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## Johnny b

valis said:


> That surprises me....i know you are well read (even outside of engine manuals). .......................


lol!
Yes, a lot of motorcycle manuals, indeed


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## Johnny b

OMG.....Jack, you need to read this.
Two of your buds appear to be in serious trouble because of the Arizona allegations you've presented:

* Donald Trump and Rudy Giuliani could face criminal investigation in Arizona over their attempts to overturn election *
https://news.yahoo.com/donald-trump-rudy-giuliani-could-131459980.html

Will Rudy be able to plead diminished capacity?

* Rudy Giuliani was so 'incredibly drunk' on election night that Trump aides worried he'd smash valuable White House china, Michael Wolff says *
https://news.yahoo.com/rudy-giuliani-incredibly-drunk-election-092831367.html










Shocking.....Just shocking I tell you!!!!!!

[ LOL! ]


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## Johnny b

Interesting development.

It was a tossup as to whether put the news article here or over in the 'Nutter' thread.
So here it is.

The GOP is trying to put advocates of falsifying 2020 election results in favor of Trump, on the select committee investigating the Jan. 6 siege of the U.S. Capitol.
Ohio Rep. Jim Jordan, of Ohio State University sports sexual molestation fame, is one chosen by House Minority Leader Kevin McCarthy.
Advocates of overthrowing the legal election process, that led to the insurrection, will obviously be investigating the crimes they initially supported.
Pelosi will, no doubt, not approve.

*Rep. Jim Jordan named to Jan. 6 select committee *
https://www.daytondailynews.com/ohi...-select-committee/JZIPPKZWZVDTBGNY3EGX32RQCA/

The GOP should be officially renamed the Trumplican Party.


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## Johnny b

Trumplicans again:

Now comes the call for no more elections until the GOP gets their way.
Even though all the claims by Trump and his lawyers have been rejected/refuted so far, in court and even by Republican election officials.

*Trump spokeswoman says no 'next election' without 2020 'fix' *
https://news.yahoo.com/trump-spokeswoman-says-no-next-015400430.html



> Liz Harrington, a former Republican National Committee official, told One America News Network there would not be another election without a "fix" to the November contest, which election authorities have defended against Trump's allegations of widespread fraud.


And that's a call for the overthrow of an elected government likely leading to an authoritarian dictatorship.
They either 'win' an election or you lose your right to vote.
Trumplicans....:down:


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## Wino

May as well appoint Trump to committee, too. Hopefully, Pelosi will not accept any member that opposed the election and supported the insurrectionist. That eliminates 158 twits +/-.


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## Johnny b

Interesting side issue on who should be eligible to be Speaker of the House.
(And that relates to voting issues, just not a public issue  )
It's about who has the credentials be elected to that position.

* Democrat proposes boxing out Trump by limiting speaker to House members only *
https://news.yahoo.com/democrat-proposes-boxing-trump-limiting-234200541.html

[QUOTEAs it stands now, the U.S. Constitution does not require the speaker of the House to be a member of Congress, though every speaker in U.S. history has been an elected member.] [/QUOTE]

According to the proposal, Trump would need to be elected to the House of Representatives rather than as a citizen or even re-elected as President.



> In recent weeks, there has been chatter about Trump replacing Rep. Nancy Pelosi as speaker if Republicans win back the House in 2022.
> 
> "My commitment to you is that my vote for the U.S. House of Representatives will go to Donald J. Trump," Rep. Matt Gaetz, a Trump ally, told a crowd on July 3.
> 
> Minority Leader Kevin McCarthy appeared to say in a June 18 Fox News interview that Trump wanted to be speaker, which he later clarified to mean Trump wants McCarthy to become speaker.
> 
> The former president has even teased the possibility himself, calling the notion "very interesting."


From the Washington Examiner, which has seemed pro Trump in the past:

* Trump says congressional run to become speaker and impeach Biden is 'very interesting' idea  *
https://www.washingtonexaminer.com/news/very-interesting-trump-mulls-congressional-bid-2022



> Former President Donald Trump said running for the U.S. House of Representatives is a "very interesting" prospect as he continues to tease a 2024 presidential run.
> 
> "You know, it's very interesting," Trump said when conservative commentator Wayne Allyn Root pitched the congressional bid idea.
> 
> "Why not, instead of waiting for 2024, and I'm hoping you'll run in 2024, but why not run in 2022 for the United States Congress? A House seat in Florida. Win big. Lead us to a dramatic landslide victory taking the House by 50 seats. And then, you become the speaker of the House, lead the impeachment of Biden, and start criminal investigations against Biden," Root said.
> 
> "You'll wipe him out for this last two years," the radio host added.


Winston Churchill wrote, "Those that fail to learn from history are doomed to repeat it."

Mein Kampf 2.0 ?
hmmmm...... looking like it.


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## Johnny b

* Pennsylvania decertifies county's voting machines after 2020 audit *
https://news.yahoo.com/pennsylvania-decertifies-countys-voting-machines-205156699.html



> Acting Secretary of State Veronica Degraffenreid said on Wednesday that Fulton County violated the state election code by giving a third party access to its election databases and other certified equipment in an audit of the 2020 results.


Realistically, how can those in the employ of a group trying to overthrow a government, be trusted?


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## Johnny b

It appears Trump is turning against Fox in a current rant over his losses in Arizona.

Dated July 20, 2021

* Fox News' Bret Baier Fact-Checks Trump Statement Attacking His Election Coverage *
https://news.yahoo.com/fox-news-bret-baier-fact-045304274.html



> Fox News anchor Bret Baier threw facts at Donald Trump on Monday after the former president went on a tirade against him for reporting that President Joe Biden fairly won Arizona in the 2020 election.
> 
> Trump attacked Baier, his show, Fox News and other media outlets Friday for "siding with" the Maricopa County Election Board in reporting that there was no fraud in the 2020 election.
> .............
> Trump fumed that the media wouldn't report on the "findings" presented by the third-party auditors at the hearing, which one Arizona columnist said was akin to "one of MyPillow Guy Mike Lindell's informercials" or a Trump press release.


Ouch!

* 
Was that a Senate hearing on Arizona's election audit or a Trump infomercial?
*
https://www.azcentral.com/story/opi...ng-sounded-like-trump-infomerical/7985985002/



> *It was long on innuendo (perfect for the MAGA crowd)*


(sigh! Trumplicans....  )


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## Wino

Watching this democratic republic slowly crumble on a daily basis is disheartening.


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## Johnny b

Time for some perverse humor 

* Mike Lindell is offering $5 million to anyone who can disprove his allegations of voter fraud - if they show up to his cyber symposium *
https://news.yahoo.com/mike-lindell-offering-5-million-145221602.html



> Kevin Skoglund, president and chief technologist of Citizens for Better Elections, told The Dispatch that Lindell's data theory is "technically incoherent and wrong in several ways." According to Skoglund, Lindell claims that his team of anonymous experts collected internet traffic from foreign computers that infiltrated US voting systems.


Consider......Lindell is trusting enemy nations that were trying to damage our electoral process and apparently accomplished that trust by hacking enemy hackers.

And now, he is willing to pay $5 million to the person that can disprove the data he stole from enemy hackers.

* From crack cocaine to Mar-a-Lago: The unusual journey of the MyPillow man *
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news...o-the-remarkable-journey-of-the-mypillow-man/



> The pillow salesman had so much crack cocaine pounding through his bloodstream he hadn't slept for two weeks, he would later say. Even the drug dealers were counseling Mike Lindell to slow down.


Now it's starting to make sense 



> As Lindell tells it, his success has the classic Horatio Alger shape - with cocaine and infomercials and divine inspiration.


https://news.yahoo.com/mike-lindell-offering-5-million-145221602.html


> Lindell said he wants the symposium to be the most-watched live event in history and is aiming for 1 billion people to watch it via his website, Salon's Zachary Petrizzo reported.


lol!

I might just watch it for the incredible bizarre humor


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## Wino

Lindell gives crack users a bad rep.

jb - you might wanna reconsider watching his bizarreness - that's time you will never recover !


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## Johnny b

Wino said:


> .............................
> 
> jb - you might wanna reconsider watching his bizarreness - that's time you will never recover !


True lol!

I could record a screen capture for later viewing pleasure at my convenience.

But it could also be good evidence for a Lindell competence hearing that no one could challenge as 'fake news'


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## Johnny b

This is interesting.

The man credited with being the 'director' of the audit in Arizona has shared audit data with 'outside experts' that supports the official count.

What are Trump supporters to do with this new dilemma, you might ask?
Why ban him from where the audit is being held.......lol!

*Arizona GOP Audit Director Barred From Recount After Sharing Data Supporting Trump Loss*
https://www.newsweek.com/arizona-go...er-sharing-data-supporting-trump-loss-1612791



> Ryan Randazzo, a reporter for the Arizona Republic, summed up the situation in a Friday evening tweet: "The liaison for the Arizona election audit gave some data to outside experts who want to check the Cyber Ninjas' work, and then he was locked out of the audit. Also it looks like the ninjas miscounted and the roof on the budget building is leaking."


Same old...same old.


> Although Trump and many of his Republican allies continue to claim that there was widespread fraud in the 2020 election, they have not provided evidence to substantiate this extraordinary allegation. On the contrary, dozens of election challenge lawsuits have failed in state and federal courts. Even judges appointed by Trump and other Republicans have rejected the often bizarre claims.


IMO, looks like all the fraud is the doings of Trumplicans after the election ...

Hey Jack...you can check mark this thread solved


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## Johnny b

> IMO, looks like all the fraud is the doings of Trumplicans after the election ...


Wow, this article at USAToday was timely:

*'Just say that the election was corrupt': Handwritten notes show Trump pushed DOJ to back voter fraud claims *
https://www.usatoday.com/story/news...-election-fraud-claims-notes-show/5430207001/



> The disclosures provide insight into how Trump tried to use the country's top law enforcement agency to back fraud claims
> Former Acting Attorney General Jeff Rosen pushed back, telling Trump the Justice Department has found no evidence of widespread fraud.
> 
> "Just say that the election was corrupt + leave the rest to me and the R. Congressmen,'" Trump said in a December phone call with former Acting Attorney General Jeff Rosen, according to handwritten notes of the conversation. ( edit: LOL! )


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## Wino

The law and courts are beginning to stack up trump law breaking like cordwood - he may actually someday be punished for his criminality and crimes against humanity. IRS ordered to release his tax returns. His egress from his wrongs are diminishing daily.


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## Johnny b

An interesting interview with the ex-drug addict and pillow manufacturer, Mike Lindell, that claims among other things involving the 2020 election, Chinese hackers altered results in a county, overseen by Republicans, that had no internet connection in regards to voting or the vote count.
Mike's argument simply resolves into the plea, 'just believe me'.

https://www.cnn.com/videos/politics...ell-election-claims-griffin-dnt-ac360-vpx.cnn


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## Johnny b

I wonder what Jack thinks of this? :

*Florida man catches COVID, delaying $6M Arizona vote "audit" *
https://arstechnica.com/tech-policy...jas-got-covid-delaying-6m-arizona-vote-audit/

Although the focus is on the Cyber Ninja getting Covid and not being able to present their findings, this stands out:



> The company is legally based in Florida, though CNN discovered that its business address sits vacant, while the address on its contract with the Arizona Senate is a rented UPS mailbox.


Read it first and then the rest of the article.

That description seems to look like a 'fly by night' operation to me lol.
The rest of the article is merely the details of Cyber Ninja's lack of professionalism.

'Stop the Steal'. A lot to do about nothing, other than a movement to overthrow a legal government, led by a President about to vacate the Office by way of a legit election.


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## Johnny b

Almost funny what's being exposed.
And it happened in Florida, a Republican stronghold, at state level elections.
And the perpetrator of vote fraud turned out to be a Republican State Senator.

* Candidate pleads guilty in alleged Florida vote scam *
https://news.yahoo.com/candidate-pleads-guilty-alleged-florida-164408055.html



> FORT LAUDERDALE, Fla. (AP) - A sham candidate for the Florida Legislature pleaded guilty Tuesday to being part of a vote siphoning scheme in last year's election and will testify against a former Republican state senator who prosecutors say ran it.
> 
> Alex Rodríguez agreed to testify against former Sen. Frank Artiles after pleading guilty in Miami-Dade County to accepting illegal campaign donations and lying on campaign documents.
> 
> Prosecutors charged Artiles in March with felony campaign fraud charges, saying he secretly gave more than $44,000 to Rodriguez so that he could run in the 2020 election to confuse voters and siphon ballots from then-Democratic incumbent, Sen. Jose Javier Rodríguez. The funds allegedly came from a dark money source.


I am shocked! ( lol! )


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## Johnny b

Headline says it all.

* Lawyers allied with Trump penalized over Michigan lawsuit *
https://news.yahoo.com/lawyers-allied-trump-penalized-over-224024931.html



> DETROIT (AP) - Nine lawyers allied with former President Donald Trump face financial penalties and other sanctions after a judge Wednesday said they had abused the court system with a lawsuit that challenged Michigan's election results in favor of Joe Biden.


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## Johnny b

Oh my.....this is going to upset Jack.

* Draft of Cyber Ninjas GOP-led audit confirms Biden won, Maricopa County says *
https://news.yahoo.com/maricopa-county-draft-cyber-ninjas-041918195.html



> The "draft report from Cyber Ninjas confirms the county's canvass of the 2020 General Election was accurate and the candidates certified as the winners did, in fact, win," Maricopa County tweeted Thursday night.


Let the denials and excuses begin.


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## Johnny b

In a perverse way, this makes sense.....just deny everything and you prove your point.
( yeah!  )

* Trump releases misleading statement falsely claiming GOP audit in Arizona uncovered 'undeniable evidence' of fraud after the audit confirmed Biden won *
https://news.yahoo.com/trump-walks-back-statement-praising-142650585.html



> Former President Donald Trump backpedaled hard from praising a group of "highly respected" GOP auditors in Arizona after their "audit" of the state's election results confirmed that Joe Biden won in the general election. He also released a misleading statement Friday morning falsely claiming the audit found "significant and undeniable evidence of FRAUD!"
> 
> The statement was contradicted by a spokesperson for the Cyber Ninjas, who earlier told an NPR affiliate in Arizona, "Was there massive fraud or anything? It doesn't look like it."


Somebody....please... punch Trump's 'TS' card......Biden won, Trump's the loser.
Long past time to get over it.

edit ( LOL! )


> The Cyber Ninjas' partisan audit concluded that Biden won by a slightly higher margin than was previously known, according to a draft of its findings obtained by media outlets. The official report will be presented to Arizona state Senate at 1 p.m. Friday.


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## Johnny b

Some more interesting news on the election fraud fiasco.
One of Qanon's characters apparently is suing Dominion Voting Systems because judgement went against her in dropping a suit Dominion brought against her.....for defamation, essentially lying about the integrity of Dominion with claims of fraud.....that still go unproven after recounts and legal maneuvering.
Further damaging her argument is the release of results from Cyber Ninja that Biden won by an even greater count in Maricopa County, Arizona.

Suing because she got caught lying?
Her argument in court will be interesting. Perhaps humorous in a perverse manor.

*Ex-Trump Campaign Lawyer Powell Sues Voting Firm for Suing Her *
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/arti...-lawyer-powell-sues-voting-firm-for-suing-her


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## Wino

The right wing ignorance and general goofiness grows exponentially day by day. Orange pustule is the poster child for goofus. 🤪


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## Chawbacon

Well, I knew that you guys would be unable to avoid going down the Orange Man BAD! road. I heard a pundit say something along the lines of "Trump lives in the brains of liberals rent free, and they don't know how to evict him." I guess that may be true afterall.

So here is some fact based information for you guys to digest. Again, I ask for you to stick to the facts concerning the integrity of our voting system, instead of unnecessary rhetoric about the Evil Agent Orange.

Below is the Summary Findings Table from the Cyber Ninjas Report Volume III
This is minus the 0ver 17,000 duplicated votes. 
So we are talking about some 46,000 ballots still in question, numerous (some potentially illegal) procedural activities that occurred, and problematic system configuration issues that need to be addressed..



> Cyber Ninjas Report | azsenategopcaucus (azsenaterepublicans.com)


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## Johnny b

The full Cyber Ninja report can be found here:
https://www.azfamily.com/full-repor...pdf_e1967608-1d99-11ec-9f0f-c394f7c3dc5f.html

pdf here:
https://bloximages.newyork1.vip.tow...-11ec-9f0f-c394f7c3dc5f/614e7177ca92c.pdf.pdf

Posted on the website:


> *  Cyber Ninjas releases findings on Maricopa County election audit*
> 
> The partisan review came up with a vote tally that would not have altered the outcome, finding that Biden won by 360 more votes than the official results certified last year.


What a mess.
Skipping through all the jargon and 'if' recommendations, eventually you come to 6.2 in the report.Digital Analysis Summary.
From there you'll run in to paragraphs describing deleted files, corrupt ballot images with a lot of redaction.
It's more of a story about an inept team stumbling through a maze of suggested recommendations on how an election ought to be run using a lot of 'if' arguments. 
How the hell it can be regarded as a forensic investigation is beyond me.

But ...here's the final word
https://www.azfamily.com/news/polit...cle_d36f347a-1d6c-11ec-9bcd-3f7997be88dd.html



> *Ballot Tally*
> The findings by Cyber Ninjas revealed that Biden received 99 more votes than the original canvass conducted by Maricopa County. It also said Trump got 261 fewer votes. According to the audit report, 1,040,873 votes went to Biden while 995,404 went to Trump. So Biden won by 45,469 votes.


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## Johnny b

It just keeps getting stranger and stranger.

* Arizona Audit Backers Turn on Each Other After Recount Flop *
https://www.thedailybeast.com/arizona-audit-backers-turn-on-each-other-after-recount-flop

Like this:


> Ron Watkins, the one-time 8chan administrator who's been accused of running the QAnon conspiracy theory, shared a video suggesting Arizona state Sen. Wendy Rogers (R), one of the audit's most prominent supporters, was in fact blocking a real investigation of the 2020 ballots.


And this:


> Jovan Hutton Pulitzer, the controversial inventor whose supposed technology analyzing folds in ballot paper had promised, according to audit supporters, to detect some kind of voter fraud. Instead, the final audit report contained no mention of Pulitzer's imaging technology, a change Pulitzer attributed on Twitter to "deep state" malfeasance.


Cyber Ninjas were 'deep state'?

Drugs. It just has be drug abuse.
I told you guys many moons ago, legalizing drug abuse wouldn't end well (  )


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## Wino

Trump, opiate of the ignorant and befuddled.


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## Johnny b

Wino said:


> Trump, opiate of the ignorant and befuddled.


Given all his negative history before his Presidential aspirations, it is amazing he has supporters outside the realm of the clown suited Qanon and red hatted national socialist MAGA cultists.

Now elements within those groups are are attacking supposed infiltrators of their madness. Their own kind.

And with elements of Congress shutting down government in the midst of a pandemic and disrupted economy, what ever else could go wrong?

I remember the crazy talk back in the GW Bush days when elements of the neo-con faction presented the idea of letting society fail on it's own and rebuilding fresh.
This is it, now.
But it's taking a fascist movement during a pandemic to force it.
And the irony is .....there will be no room for those old neo-cons in the new Trump state.
Unless they obediently wear the clown suits or red hats and march to a new tune.

And even then, since history repeats itself, they should worry about what happened to their brothers in brown shirts happening again, Unternehmen Kolibri.
The leaders of the Trump movement have no loyalties other than to themselves.


----------



## Wino

An unruly orangish comb over head mop is replacing the short black mustache as a symbol of fascism. Merriam-Webster defines as: 
" a political philosophy, movement, or regime (such as that of the Fascisti) that exalts nation and often race above the individual and that stands for a *centralized autocratic government* headed by a dictatorial leader, severe economic and social regimentation, and forcible suppression of opposition." 
Describes the TS'ers and leader to a tee. Always amuses me that RWN's miss the irony and that they clearly haven't a clue that fascism constitutes their side of the spectrum. TS'ers see a fascist every morning in their bathroom mirror without recognition. Projection in it's purest form.


----------



## Johnny b

Giuliani admits some of his evidence about fraudulent voting was based on claims he read on Facebook and didn't fact check 

* Rudy Giuliani admits under oath that he got some of his 'evidence' of alleged election fraud from Facebook *
https://news.yahoo.com/rudy-guiliani-admits-under-oath-100908876.html



> Rudy Giuliani admitted under oath that his "evidence" of voter fraud in the 2020 election came partly from Facebook and that he did not interview or fact-check his sources, reports say.


And it gets better.....Rudy wasn't even sure where some of that evidence came from.



> In the deposition, Giuliani admitted that he got some of his information about Coomer's alleged role in the election fraud from his social media posts but couldn't be sure if it was Facebook or another platform, MSNBC said.
> 
> "Those social media posts get all one to me," Giuliani said.


I can see Trump turning red and doing a face-palm in disgust. 
When Rudy proclaimed, just pay me what I'm worth....I wonder how much he was really paid lol!


----------



## Johnny b

Even stranger things are now happening in the Qanon/Trump 'Stop the Steal' show.

* Lin Wood Goes Off the Deep State Deep End, Accuses Trump Lawyer Sidney Powell and Stop the Steal of Grifting *
https://news.yahoo.com/lin-wood-goes-off-deep-192119371.html

The story line also notes an issue of unrequited love . wild claims by an acquitted killer, and this statement by Lin Wood:


> "After doing the research and connecting the dots, I have reached the conclusion that the Stop the Steal organization is a Deep State organization to raise money for purposes other than to FIX 2020. … WATCH OUT for anyone affiliated with Stop the Steal. Every lie will be revealed,"


LOL!!!


----------



## Johnny b

It just keeps getting better and better lol!

* QAnon Hero Michael Flynn Secretly Said QAnon Is 'Total Nonsense' *
https://news.yahoo.com/qanon-hero-michael-flynn-secretly-114722304.html



> Former Trump national security adviser Michael Flynn has embraced his position as a hero to QAnon conspiracy theorists. He took the QAnon oath, sold QAnon T-shirts, and even auctioned off a QAnon quilt. He appeared at a QAnon convention and signed books with a QAnon slogan. Some QAnon followers even believe that Flynn is "Q," the mysterious figure behind QAnon.
> 
> But a recording released late Saturday night by a one-time Flynn ally suggests that the retired three-star general privately believes QAnon to be "total nonsense."


( I think I heard DJT chocking on that one lol )


----------



## Johnny b

What a circus


----------



## Johnny b

Hey, Jack.

Looks like a lot of conflict among your buds at MAGA and QAnon.
Civil war among the crazies?

* The Big MAGA and QAnon Civil War Keeps Getting Nuttier and Sleazier *
https://www.yahoo.com/entertainment/big-maga-qanon-civil-war-090337786.html


----------



## Chawbacon

Johnny b said:


> The full Cyber Ninja report can be found here:
> https://www.azfamily.com/full-repor...pdf_e1967608-1d99-11ec-9f0f-c394f7c3dc5f.html
> 
> pdf here:
> https://bloximages.newyork1.vip.tow...-11ec-9f0f-c394f7c3dc5f/614e7177ca92c.pdf.pdf
> 
> Posted on the website:
> 
> What a mess.
> Skipping through all the jargon and 'if' recommendations, eventually you come to 6.2 in the report.Digital Analysis Summary.
> From there you'll run in to paragraphs describing deleted files, corrupt ballot images with a lot of redaction.
> It's more of a story about an inept team stumbling through a maze of suggested recommendations on how an election ought to be run using a lot of 'if' arguments.
> How the hell it can be regarded as a forensic investigation is beyond me.
> 
> But ...here's the final word
> https://www.azfamily.com/news/polit...cle_d36f347a-1d6c-11ec-9bcd-3f7997be88dd.html


Ok... I am about 6 months late responding to this. My apologies for dropping the ball on the response. Between school, work, family, etc... very little time for the forum.

Wow Johnny! I cannot believe that you can be so incredibly obtuse here. Yes, when you count the *stuffed* *ballot box*, Biden received 99 more votes. Your focus should be on the *massive amounts of irregularities* noted from the forensic analysis. I get it that from within your hate Trump mindset, you will do what is within your ability to smear and defame the man; but, your _nothing to see here_ attitude is truly troubling.

How can you expect the citizens of this country to have faith in our elections, when the Democrat leadership deliberately obstructs any attempt to audit the election results? And then when significant problems are unearthed, the Democrat party line is to ridicule the findings without any attempt to truly determine if the breaking of multiple election laws was committed and what that significance might be.

If Biden won the election without cheating... Fine
If Trump won the election without cheating... Fine
Just stop obstructing already and let the actual votes (all legal votes) speak for themselves.

You can continue to delude yourself; however, I know that the citizens of this country are not that stupid, and they have seen the ugly and blatant deceit that is flowing from the Democrat party (And yes the Republican party has their fair share similar issues). I fully expect the Democrats and RINOs to encounter a _come to Jesus meeting_ during the midterm elections.


----------



## Chawbacon

Johnny b said:


> Hey, Jack.
> 
> Looks like a lot of conflict among your buds at MAGA and QAnon.
> Civil war among the crazies?
> 
> * The Big MAGA and QAnon Civil War Keeps Getting Nuttier and Sleazier *
> https://www.yahoo.com/entertainment/big-maga-qanon-civil-war-090337786.html


Yeah. QAnon is a strange group. Kind of like the 30% of Democrats polled last week that think Biden is doing a good job on the economy. Oh my, I hope that 30% of Republicans are not QAnon affiliated.


----------



## Johnny b

Chawbacon said:


> ...............
> 
> Wow Johnny! I cannot believe that you can be so incredibly obtuse here.
> 
> ..................
> [blah. blah, blah lol! (edited for brevity) ]


Obtuse?

Jack...Trump lost. You just need to come to grips with reality.



> You can continue to delude yourself; however, I know that the citizens of this country are not that stupid,


With a civil war brewing among the crazies of your Trump Party, it does look like there are a lot of stupid people.
Some even think JFK jr is going to be resurrected and something about him as a running mate with DJT in 2024.
( Jack....the guy is not only dead, he was a liberal Democrat....I mean....what the hell....would intelligent people think like that? )



> Your focus should be on the *massive amounts of irregularities* noted from the forensic analysis.


Are you well these days?
I've noticed some tell tale signs you are living in a different reality from the rest of humanity.
Well.....you and that 'pillow' guy. ( massive amounts lol! )



> If Trump won the election without cheating... Fine


If?
Jack, there is no 'If' to consider. Trump lost.



> I fully expect the Democrats and RINOs to encounter a _come to Jesus meeting_ during the midterm elections.


Jack.....go look in a mirror.
You belong to the GOP, now the Trump Party. MAGAs, Qanon, seditionists, insurrectionists, anti-vaxxers, some racists , Tea Party fanatics , libertarian anarchists, Nationalists and a host of militant militias.
Sincerely, currently, your group doesn't look very republican.
Your leader did at one time suggest it would be a good idea if the US was to be led by a President for Life.

So who is the RINO? ( that's a rhetorical question, Jack  )

As far as the midterms go, I'm not expecting much.

Hope you feel better.


----------



## Johnny b

Chawbacon said:


> Yeah. QAnon is a strange group. Kind of like the 30% of Democrats polled last week that think Biden is doing a good job on the economy. Oh my, I hope that 30% of Republicans are not QAnon affiliated.


Let me guess.
You're in debt to the hilt.
You invested poorly and your new job isn't panning out because of the pandemic.
And it's all someone else's fault.

Sour grapes?

( go ahead...deny it lol )


----------



## Johnny b

Trump people .....(sigh! ) .......lol.

* Pro-Trump lawyer Lin Wood shared a screenshot on Telegram that he says proves Tucker Carlson and Hunter Biden have a 'buddy-buddy' relationship *
(repost from Business Insider)
https://news.yahoo.com/pro-trump-lawyer-lin-wood-032016906.html

https://t.me/linwoodspeakstruth/7890

Is it true or merely the rantings of the insane? ( I don't know...yet.... but it's worth a lol! )

However, this thread has taken on the aura of 'Believe It or Not' with imaginary 'evidence'.
Poor Rudy


----------



## Johnny b

Poor Rudy?

Poorer Powell, Wood and other 'Kraken' lawyers.

A Federal Judge wasn't amused at their attempt to overturn the 2020 election.

* Judge orders Sidney Powell, Lin Wood, and other 'Kraken' lawyers to pay more than $175,000 in legal fees to Michigan officials *
https://www.businessinsider.com/jud...s-to-pay-175000-to-michigan-officials-2021-12



> A federal judge on Thursday ordered Sidney Powell, Lin Wood, and seven other attorneys to pay thousands of dollars in attorneys fees to Michigan officials and the city of Detroit as a result of the lawyers' attempt to overturn the 2020 presidential election results in the state.
> 
> ...............
> The Michigan lawsuit was one of four post-election cases Powell brought in battleground states - all of which eventually failed.


https://www.businessinsider.com/sid...ed-michigan-georgia-arizona-wisconsin-2020-12


> .......unsubstantiated claim that voting machines switched votes from President Donald Trump to President-elect Joe Biden in the 2020 election.


(imaginary evidence)


> US District Judge Linda Parker issued a harsh opinion in the Michigan case, saying: "This lawsuit seems to be less about achieving the relief Plaintiffs seek - as much of that relief is beyond the power of this Court - and more about the impact of their allegations on People's faith in the democratic process and their trust in our government."


hmmmm? Much like the intent of this thread?
Trump people. :down:


----------



## Johnny b

Not a surprise:

* Revealed: how Sidney Powell could be disbarred for lying in court for Trump *
https://news.yahoo.com/revealed-sidney-powell-could-disbarred-080019508.html



> Sidney Powell, the former lawyer for Donald Trump who filed lawsuits across the US for the former president, hoping to overturn the results of the 2020 presidential election, has on several occasions represented to federal courts that people were co-counsel or plaintiffs in her cases without seeking their permission to do so, the Guardian has learned.


No wonder L Wood is upset.


> Powell's misrepresentations to the courts in those particular instances often aided fundraising for her non-profit, Defending the Republic. Powell had told prospective donors that the attorneys were integral members of an "elite strike force" who had played outsized roles in her cases - when in fact they were barely involved if at all.


Sounds like he didn't get a share of her grift.



> A federal grand jury has also been separately investigating Powell, Defending the Republic, as well as a political action committee that goes by the same name, for fundraising fraud, according to records reviewed by the Guardian.


Shocking, just shocking I tell you!! ( lol )


----------



## Chawbacon

Johnny b said:


> With a civil war brewing among the crazies of your Trump Party, it does look like there are a lot of stupid people.


This is about the only intelligent statement that I could find from your post; however, I prefer to not joke about this matter; because, it scares the living daylights out of me.

I agree that there are enough crazies on the right who could lash out towards the crazies on the left; because, the Biden Administration is protecting the crazies on the left, encouraging lawlessness, and prosecuting crazies on the right for significantly minor lawbreaking. Yeah, yeah, I know. You will reverence Jan 6th as being much more dangerous than the looting, burning, destruction, assaults, and murders that happen in primarily Democrat run cities. So tell me, how many of the people that were arrested in association of the Jan 6th protest have actually been charged with insurrection? I can give you a hint... It rhymes with hero.

Not to mention Critical Race Theory, pornography being peddled in school libraries as literature, allowing biological boys in girls bathrooms, destroying girls sports by allowing biological boys to obliterate biological female competition, attempting to define parents demanding accountability from school officials as domestic terrorists, forcing people to loose their jobs over a so called vaccine with extremely questionable efficacy, forcing kids to take an experimental shot for Covid-19 when they have a greater risk of serious negative health reaction to the shot than a serious negative health reaction to actually contracting Covid-19, and the list can go on and on and on.

So yeah, this is really serious. Crazy liberals pushing crazy conservatives into a corner is stupid and dangerous, and I pray to GOD that the U.S. does not devolve into complete chaos.


----------



## Chawbacon

Here you go Johnny. Please take the time to actually listen to what Jovan Pulitzer has to say and the data he provides. I would love to hear how you rationalize this completely above-board election process that took place in Maricopa, Arizona.

Voter fraud 2020 exposed of Maricpoa County shown in detail by Jovon Pulitzer sourced (rumble.com)

Just a high level summary here:

Sharpies/markers were highly discouraged for mail-in ballots
Sharpies/markers where required on election day
The State only sent Sharpies/markers to the voting precincts for election day
The Sharpies/markers caused bleed through, resulting in ballots requiring a manual, or AI, adjudication process 
Ballot scanning sensitivity levels were not consistent across the voting precincts
The correct voting paper was NOT used
Voters were not informed when their ballot was adjudicated
Voters were not allowed an opportunity to fix/cure/correct the adjudicated vote
Almost every ballot batch in Maricopa County required hand, or AI, modification with up to 1 out of every five votes being affected in some batches.


----------



## Johnny b

Chawbacon said:


> This is about the only intelligent statement that I could find from your post; however, I prefer to not joke about this matter; because, it scares the living daylights out of me.
> 
> I agree that there are enough crazies on the right who could lash out towards the crazies on the left; because, the Biden Administration is protecting the crazies on the left, encouraging lawlessness, and prosecuting crazies on the right for significantly minor lawbreaking. Yeah, yeah, I know. You will reverence Jan 6th as being much more dangerous than the looting, burning, destruction, assaults, and murders that happen in primarily Democrat run cities. So tell me, how many of the people that were arrested in association of the Jan 6th protest have actually been charged with insurrection? I can give you a hint... It rhymes with hero.
> 
> Not to mention Critical Race Theory, pornography being peddled in school libraries as literature, allowing biological boys in girls bathrooms, destroying girls sports by allowing biological boys to obliterate biological female competition, attempting to define parents demanding accountability from school officials as domestic terrorists, forcing people to loose their jobs over a so called vaccine with extremely questionable efficacy, forcing kids to take an experimental shot for Covid-19 when they have a greater risk of serious negative health reaction to the shot than a serious negative health reaction to actually contracting Covid-19, and the list can go on and on and on.
> 
> So yeah, this is really serious. Crazy liberals pushing crazy conservatives into a corner is stupid and dangerous, and I pray to GOD that the U.S. does not devolve into complete chaos.





> This is about the only intelligent statement that I could find from your post; however, I prefer to not joke about this matter; because, it scares the living daylights out of me.


Your abilities with reading comprehension are definitely scary, Jack.
And you do seem prone to conspiracy theories.

Like this:


> the Biden Administration is protecting the crazies on the left, encouraging lawlessness, and prosecuting crazies on the right for significantly minor lawbreaking.


That comment is typical in the realm of extremist rightwing circles.



> Yeah, yeah, I know. You will reverence Jan 6th as being much more dangerous than the looting, burning, destruction, assaults, and murders that happen in primarily Democrat run cities.


There is that. And it is relative.
Actions for a civil war, actions to overthrow a legally elected government are more serious than street crime.
Your quest for an authoritarian ruler affects each and every citizen and does so in a way that usurps our freedoms.



> So tell me, how many of the people that were arrested in association of the Jan 6th protest have actually been charged with insurrection?


Good point.
A failure of our legal system.
Worst of all, the leader of that attempted insurrection still walks as a free man, still participating in national politics.



> Not to mention Critical Race Theory


Why not mention it?
The original activity of the Republican Party addressed slavery and ended the practice.
But today, racism persists.
And it's obviously centered in the ranks of the Trump party with white supremacist support even in news outlets like Fox News.
Early on in your presence at TSG, you accused liberals of institutional racism.
Institutional racism is an element of CRT.
You believe in CRT when it's convenient.
Attack it when it's convenient.
However, racism exists.
And that's inconvenient for you.
You obviously want to pin it on someone other than those you support.



> pornography being peddled in school libraries as literature


I had to do a search on that one.
It's not something being done in my community.
I agree it should be removed.
And I think pedophiles in Congress should be removed, but I notice that they are protected by the Trump Party, even with Qanon presence.



> destroying girls sports by allowing biological boys to obliterate biological female competition


Welcome to a society being degraded by extremist groups, and that includes the people on your side of the political fence.
Degrading society further with fascism is not a solution, Jack.



> attempting to define parents demanding accountability from school officials as domestic terrorists,


And there you go....defending those that are violent, make threats and carry them out at school board meetings.
In my community, we voted solutions.
Radicals that tried to impose their anti-vaxx, covid denial and historical revisionism....were simply voted down for our school boards.
And my community is not of a liberal mentality  It's Ohio 



> forcing people to loose their jobs over a so called vaccine with extremely questionable efficacy, forcing kids to take an experimental shot for Covid-19 when they have a greater risk of serious negative health reaction to the shot than a serious negative health reaction to actually contracting Covid-19, and the list can go on and on and on.


Yes, you do go on and on.
You have made various claims in the past like the above, only to be outed for the denier you are. 
I see you've become wise enough not to post linkage to your false claims.
Your mask denial and the link you used really came back to bite you in the rump 
Just on keep posting the BS, looking for acceptance. 
BannedPeter got hung up on that.

Get over it. Trump is a loser.


----------



## Johnny b

Chawbacon said:


> Here you go Johnny. Please take the time to actually listen to what Jovan Pulitzer has to say and the data he provides. I would love to hear how you rationalize this completely above-board election process that took place in Maricopa, Arizona.
> 
> Voter fraud 2020 exposed of Maricpoa County shown in detail by Jovon Pulitzer sourced (rumble.com)
> 
> Just a high level summary here:
> 
> Sharpies/markers were highly discouraged for mail-in ballots
> Sharpies/markers where required on election day
> The State only sent Sharpies/markers to the voting precincts for election day
> The Sharpies/markers caused bleed through, resulting in ballots requiring a manual, or AI, adjudication process
> Ballot scanning sensitivity levels were not consistent across the voting precincts
> The correct voting paper was NOT used
> Voters were not informed when their ballot was adjudicated
> Voters were not allowed an opportunity to fix/cure/correct the adjudicated vote
> Almost every ballot batch in Maricopa County required hand, or AI, modification with up to 1 out of every five votes being affected in some batches.


Is this a joke? 

Dude, do a search on Jovan Pulitzer. lol!

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jovan_Pulitzer

I don't think even BannedPeter would have used such a clown as an authority.

Ha ha ha ha ha!!

Jack, Trump lost. Trump is a loser. lol. Get over it.
Your mental health is at stake.

Ha ha ha!

I hope everyone that reads your post follows up on who J Pulitzer is.....great humor! :up:


----------



## Johnny b

Well well well.......

This will be interesting:
*Trump-allied lawyer Rudy Giuliani baselessly claims that he has '900 death certificates' on hand to prove that thousands of dead people voted in the election *
https://news.yahoo.com/trump-allied-lawyer-rudy-giuliani-041641450.html

But doesn't show them.

And this is interesting:

*Kanye West publicist urged Georgia worker to confess to fake election fraud charges *
https://news.yahoo.com/kanye-west-publicist-urged-georgia-145658856.html

Imagine that, a Trump supporter threatened an election worker to admit to something they didn't do.

And yet, none of the above surprises me.
Just SOP for the Trump Party.


----------



## Johnny b

I often wonder how the 'talking heads' over at Fox News can keep a straight face and not double over in laughter when interviewing Trump these days.
I suspect Jack will repeat it as fact.

* Donald Trump Defies Belief With New Spin On 'We Fight Like Hell' Speech From Jan. 6 *
https://news.yahoo.com/donald-trump-defies-belief-spin-082555407.html



> The former president, during an interview with Fox News' Laura Ingraham, claimed the incendiary address that whipped his supporters up into storming the U.S. Capitol in a bid to overturn the 2020 election was "extremely calming."


Wow.

I don't remember any historical revisions being this comical and deadly, at the same time.

Edit.....well....there was Baghdad Bob  He was probably pretty close.


----------



## Johnny b

* Capitol attack panel obtains PowerPoint that set out plan for Trump to stage coup *

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2021/dec/10/trump-powerpoint-mark-meadows-capitol-attack



> Former Trump White House chief of staff Mark Meadows turned over to the House select committee investigating the 6 January Capitol attack a PowerPoint recommending Donald Trump to declare a national security emergency in order to return himself to the presidency.
> 
> The PowerPoint, titled "Election Fraud, Foreign Interference & Options for 6 Jan", made several recommendations for Trump to pursue in order to retain the presidency for a second term on the basis of lies and debunked conspiracies about widespread election fraud.
> 
> Meadows turned over a version of the PowerPoint presentation that he received in an email and spanned 38 pages, according to a source familiar with the matter.


Hey Jack.......what do ya think.......kinda late to be claiming Trump's January 6th get-together was just a 'calming event'?



> The fact that Meadows was in possession of a PowerPoint the day before the Capitol attack that detailed ways to stage a coup suggests he was at least aware of efforts by Trump and his allies to stop Joe Biden's certification from taking place on 6 January.


edit:

Another interesting article about Trump, January 6th and overthrowing the election:

* Election denier who circulated Jan. 6 PowerPoint says he met with Meadows at White House *
https://www.washingtonpost.com/inve...a67938-59df-11ec-9a18-a506cf3aa31d_story.html


----------



## Johnny b

Election fraud, January 6th Insurrection and Trump.
jail him.

* Meadows Jan. 5 email indicated Guard on standby to 'protect pro Trump people,' investigators say *
https://www.politico.com/news/2021/12/12/meadows-jan-6-national-guard-trump-524133

Just the thought of Trump attempting to incite a revolution is disgusting.
And here he is instructing the National Guard to protect the mob as they attacked. 
Jail him.

An email here, an email there. Emails-emails every where.
Jail him.


----------



## SeanLaurence

Chawbacon said:


> This is about the only intelligent statement that I could find from your post; however, I prefer to not joke about this matter; because, it scares the living daylights out of me.
> 
> I agree that there are enough crazies on the right who could lash out towards the crazies on the left; because, the Biden Administration is protecting the crazies on the left, encouraging lawlessness, and prosecuting crazies on the right for significantly minor lawbreaking. Yeah, yeah, I know. You will reverence Jan 6th as being much more dangerous than the looting, burning, destruction, assaults, and murders that happen in primarily Democrat run cities. So tell me, how many of the people that were arrested in association of the Jan 6th protest have actually been charged with insurrection? I can give you a hint... It rhymes with hero.
> 
> Not to mention Critical Race Theory, pornography being peddled in school libraries as literature, allowing biological boys in girls bathrooms, destroying girls sports by allowing biological boys to obliterate biological female competition, attempting to define parents demanding accountability from school officials as domestic terrorists, forcing people to loose their jobs over a so called vaccine with extremely questionable efficacy, forcing kids to take an experimental shot for Covid-19 when they have a greater risk of serious negative health reaction to the shot than a serious negative health reaction to actually contracting Covid-19, and the list can go on and on and on.
> 
> So yeah, this is really serious. Crazy liberals pushing crazy conservatives into a corner is stupid and dangerous, and I pray to GOD that the U.S. does not devolve into complete chaos.


It seems you have really been drinking the conservative cool-aid.
Biden has condemned Violent BLM protests.
https://www.usatoday.com/story/news...ed-violent-protests-several-times/6576824002/
The Jan 6th insurrection is of great concern to your democracy, one would think you would take it more seriously.
You can find a list of people charged in the insurrection here:
https://www.insider.com/all-the-us-capitol-pro-trump-riot-arrests-charges-names-2021-1
129 federally charged rioters have entered guilty pleas so far.
It will take more time for the big fish to be charged - the wheels of justice turn slowly when you are building cases that will stand up to appeal.

CRT? What is that? Every time I hear that question asked I get stammering as a response.

On Pornography: Arron Sorkin Scripted this exchange on The West Wing:


> John Van ****:
> If our children can buy pornography on any street corner for five dollars, isn't that too high a price to pay for free speech?
> 
> President Josiah Bartlet:
> No.
> 
> John Van ****:
> Really?
> 
> President Josiah Bartlet:
> On the other hand, I think that five dollars is too high a price to pay for pornography.


In a country that is experiencing a population decline, what have you got about arousing interest in procreative activity?

Conservatives seem to care a lot about excluding transgendered people from sports. It is such a rare problem, I wonder why it gets the attention. Isn't the point of sports to promote healthy physical activity? Nobody cares who won last weeks junior soccer game.

Only a few people have been threatened with job loss over not getting vaccinated. People who are work in environments where a covid infection could easily spread to a vulnerable person. Given how safe and effective the vaccines actually are (despite what you might have read) this is perfectly reasonable.

Nobody is forcing kids to get covid-19 vaccinated in North America. Period.

And the vaccines are not "experimental" since the FDA approved their use a year ago.


----------



## Johnny b

It's a long article. A complicated story of two people caught up in their past history and looking for a way out.
Apparently, this is their solution. Not a good one for them, but no other options.

This paragraph near the end says a lot to the credibility of their own claims of personal innocence:


> Their attempted self-rehabilitation is at odds with the reckless swashbuckling personas they developed during their years working with Bannon and on the bus tour ahead of the election. On that tour, both Stockon and Lawrence made statements that at least could be interpreted as promoting or threatening violence.


So read the following with that in mind:

* Two Jan. 6 Organizers Are Coming Forward and Naming Names: 'We're Turning It All Over' *
https://news.yahoo.com/two-jan-6-organizers-coming-025927382.html



> Dustin Stockton and Jennifer Lynn Lawrence are set to testify next week before the House select committee investigating the attack on the U.S. Capitol. The pair will deliver testimony and turn over documents, including text messages, that indicate the extensive involvement members of Congress and the Trump administration had in planning the House challenge to certifying Biden's election and rally near the White House where Donald Trump spoke - efforts that ultimately contributed to a massive and violent attack on the Capitol.


I wonder how many Congressional names will be presented that we don't already suspect?

Stay tuned


----------



## Johnny b

OMG, after all the millions spent on verifying vote counts, 3 more people got caught down in Florida for voting more than once.
It appears they voted for Trump.

So....what changed?

* 3 Florida residents arrested after casting multiple votes in 2020 election *
https://news.yahoo.com/3-florida-residents-arrested-casting-221100739.html


----------



## Wino

There's a sucker born every minute !! attributed to P.T. Barnum.


----------



## Johnny b

pooh-pooh it all you want.

It's been written in the Book of Trump....
3 fraudulent votes could upset the balance of the universe.


----------



## SeanLaurence

https://fortune.com/2021/12/14/trum...-states-only-475-potential-voter-fraud-cases/

An Associated Press review of every potential case of voter fraud in the six battleground states disputed by former President Donald Trump has found fewer than 475 - a number that would have made no difference in the 2020 presidential election.

Democrat Joe Biden won Arizona, Georgia, Michigan, Nevada, Pennsylvania and Wisconsin and their 79 Electoral College votes by a combined 311,257 votes out of 25.5 million ballots cast for president. The disputed ballots represent just 0.15% of his victory margin in those states.


----------



## Johnny b

SeanLaurence said:


> https://fortune.com/2021/12/14/trum...-states-only-475-potential-voter-fraud-cases/
> 
> An Associated Press review of every potential case of voter fraud in the six battleground states disputed by former President Donald Trump has found fewer than 475 - a number that would have made no difference in the 2020 presidential election.
> 
> Democrat Joe Biden won Arizona, Georgia, Michigan, Nevada, Pennsylvania and Wisconsin and their 79 Electoral College votes by a combined 311,257 votes out of 25.5 million ballots cast for president. The disputed ballots represent just 0.15% of his victory margin in those states.


All well and good.....but 3 votes!!!! ......shocking, just shocking I tell you .

Oh well.

And the beat goes on:

* Meadows and the Band of Loyalists: How They Fought to Keep Trump in Power *
https://www.nytimes.com/2021/12/15/us/politics/trump-meadows-republicans-congress-jan-6.html

Like no one suspected


----------



## Johnny b

Chawbacon said:


> This is about the only intelligent statement that I could find from your post; however, I prefer to not joke about this matter; because, it scares the living daylights out of me.
> 
> ........................... Yeah, yeah, I know. You will reverence Jan 6th as being much more dangerous than the looting, burning, destruction, assaults, and murders that happen in primarily Democrat run cities. ........................


You argue not to wear a mask during a deadly pandemic, and to self treat Covid-19 with ineffective and dangerous substances...... while inferring a civil war is a lesser threat to society than street crimes. Not examples of critical thinking.

But this article just appeared and provides a pov you should consider, you being ex-military.

Even military leaders are concerned about a repeat of Trump's attempt to overthrow our government after a decisive loss in the 2020 Presidential election.

* Opinion: 3 retired generals: The military must prepare now for a 2024 insurrection*

https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/2021/12/17/eaton-taguba-anderson-generals-military/

You have argued that your Constitutional rights are violated by covid mandates, but don't seem to support the Constitution.


----------



## Johnny b

Why post the following in this thread?
Because he was doing the bidding of DJT and this thread is about fraud and what the out going President was doing about it.

* 'QAnon Shaman' Jacob Chansley compared himself to Gandhi, Martin Luther King Jr., and Jesus Christ in interview from prison *
https://www.businessinsider.com/qan...view-compares-himself-to-jesus-christ-2021-12












> Capitol rioter Jacob Chansley, known as the "QAnon Shaman," compared himself to Gandhi, Martin Luther King Jr., and Jesus Christ in a podcast interview from prison.
> 
> Chansley, who gained notoriety for attending the Capitol riot while wearing a horned, furry headpiece, was sentenced to 41 months for his role in the insurrection last month.


Just your typical fundamentalist QAnon shaman! 

And he has a motto to live by:


> The 'QAnon Shaman' went on to say that he could be "whatever the country needs me to be."


He needed to be jailed lol! :up:


----------



## Chawbacon

Johnny b said:


> Is this a joke?
> 
> Dude, do a search on Jovan Pulitzer. lol!
> 
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jovan_Pulitzer
> 
> I don't think even BannedPeter would have used such a clown as an authority.
> 
> Ha ha ha ha ha!!


Yes I am serious. Even a broken clock is correct twice a day. I am not saying that he is correct; however, what he has uncovered here (and has filed suit accordingly) should not be ignored by responsible people. 


Johnny b said:


> Hey Jack.......what do ya think.......kinda late to be claiming Trump's January 6th get-together was just a 'calming event'?


Since you like to bring up Steve Bannon all the time, I decided to look up what the Gateway Pundit had to say on this. Seems like they are claiming this was a set up by the deep state. Personally, I am not sure; however, I will wait to see how things shake out. Lots for you to read here Johnny. Have fun!

PART 1: EXCLUSIVE EXPOSING THE DEEP STATE TIES TO JAN 6: The Origin of the Russia Sham - Don Berlin's Original Russia Dossier (thegatewaypundit.com)

PART 2: EXPOSING THE DEEP STATE TIES TO JAN 6: Origin of the Russia Sham - Real Russian Collusion with Robert Eringer (thegatewaypundit.com)

PART 3: WE CAUGHT THEM: Deep State Operative Don Berlin Presented Bogus Election Dossier to President Trump Before 1-6, Now Jan 6 Committee is Using This to Claim Insurrection and Take Down President Trump (thegatewaypundit.com)

PART 4: - It Was a Set-Up: As Soon as Jan 6 Committee Obtained Deep State Operative Don Berlin's Bogus Election Dossier Claims, They Were Leaked to the Mainstream Media to Claim 'Trump Insurrection' (thegatewaypundit.com)



Johnny b said:


> You argue not to wear a mask during a deadly pandemic, and to self treat Covid-19 with ineffective and dangerous substances...... while inferring a civil war is a lesser threat to society than street crimes. Not examples of critical thinking.


Have you started snorting that blue Jello again? You know that stuff is bad for ya, right? Just Kidding. 

Exactly what are you barking about here? Are you saying that the January 6th protest equated to a civil war, where the aggressors did not bring firepower (this mean lots and lots of guns) to accomplish their designated mission? As I tried to make clear, an actual civil war scares the living daylights out of me and I have no desire to see that happen.


----------



## Johnny b

Chawbacon said:


> Yes I am serious. Even a broken clock is correct twice a day. ...........................


I think that's the wisest thing I've ever seen you post


----------



## Johnny b

Chawbacon said:


> .................I decided to look up what the Gateway Pundit had to say on this. ...........................


Thanks for posting that.
It explains a lot.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gateway_Pundit#False_stories_and_conspiracy_theories

Jeeze, Jack......what happened to that open mind you used to claim you had?
Everything spill out?


----------



## SeanLaurence

Chawbacon said:


> Since you like to bring up Steve Bannon all the time, I decided to look up what the Gateway Pundit had to say on this. Seems like they are claiming this was a set up by the deep state. Personally, I am not sure; however, I will wait to see how things shake out. Lots for you to read here Johnny. Have fun!
> 
> PART 1: EXCLUSIVE EXPOSING THE DEEP STATE TIES TO JAN 6: The Origin of the Russia Sham - Don Berlin's Original Russia Dossier (thegatewaypundit.com)
> 
> PART 2: EXPOSING THE DEEP STATE TIES TO JAN 6: Origin of the Russia Sham - Real Russian Collusion with Robert Eringer (thegatewaypundit.com)
> 
> PART 3: WE CAUGHT THEM: Deep State Operative Don Berlin Presented Bogus Election Dossier to President Trump Before 1-6, Now Jan 6 Committee is Using This to Claim Insurrection and Take Down President Trump (thegatewaypundit.com)
> 
> PART 4: - It Was a Set-Up: As Soon as Jan 6 Committee Obtained Deep State Operative Don Berlin's Bogus Election Dossier Claims, They Were Leaked to the Mainstream Media to Claim 'Trump Insurrection' (thegatewaypundit.com)


As Johnny b said - The Gatewaypundit is EXTREMELY unreliable. 
Looking at just the first story that you linked, it would be exhausting to try to debunk.
It was well known before the 2016 election that Trump had interests in Russia, and that Russia was a rival nation. It was also well known that there was Russian mob activity surrounding New York commercial real estate, and of course Trump was there as well. So... Would it not bear investigation to see if there are links between Trump and Russia?
And behold: A serious (and yet handcuffed) Mueller investigation did find evidence of Russian election interference in the 2016 election. It also found that the justice department should look into Trump after he left office - and not soon because of the OLC opinion on not indicting sitting presidents.
There is a real stench around 45 and he and his cronies have done everything they can to avoid accountability. For the sake of your nation, I hope they fail.


----------



## Johnny b

SeanLaurence said:


> As Johnny b said - The Gatewaypundit is EXTREMELY unreliable.
> Looking at just the first story that you linked, it would be exhausting to try to debunk.
> It was well known before the 2016 election that Trump had interests in Russia, and that Russia was a rival nation. It was also well known that there was Russian mob activity surrounding New York commercial real estate, and of course Trump was there as well. So... Would it not bear investigation to see if there are links between Trump and Russia?
> And behold: A serious (and yet handcuffed) Mueller investigation did find evidence of Russian election interference in the 2016 election. It also found that the justice department should look into Trump after he left office - and not soon because of the OLC opinion on not indicting sitting presidents.
> There is a real stench around 45 and he and his cronies have done everything they can to avoid accountability. For the sake of your nation, I hope they fail.


Hi Sean.

Yep.
And yet the issue seems to popup periodically.
IMO, it's merely a tactic to wear down the opposition, a debate tactic.
Repetition.
I saw a lot of that in my early days here at TSG, in what used to be a more aggressive debate forum.
And it's still popular today.
Earlier this year, I came across a YouTube video by Joshua Ellis of MyMilitia that proposed using that tactic as a means to detour debate.
Challenge everything, keep making the same claims, demand responses endlessly, to wear down your debate opponent till they give up in frustration.

If you have a couple of minutes, do a google search using the term "MyMilitia".
It's an eye opener.


----------



## SeanLaurence

Johnny b said:


> Hi Sean.
> 
> Yep.
> And yet the issue seems to popup periodically.
> IMO, it's merely a tactic to wear down the opposition, a debate tactic.
> Repetition.
> I saw a lot of that in my early days here at TSG, in what used to be a more aggressive debate forum.
> And it's still popular today.
> Earlier this year, I came across a YouTube video by Joshua Ellis of MyMilitia that proposed using that tactic as a means to detour debate.
> Challenge everything, keep making the same claims, demand responses endlessly, to wear down your debate opponent till they give up in frustration.
> 
> If you have a couple of minutes, do a google search using the term "MyMilitia".
> It's an eye opener.


I just had a look at a rolling stone article on MyMilitia. Nothing too surprising in it. Reminds me of stuff I read after the OK Federal building bombing. 
The question that I have about your country/constitution is: When do you get to use the guns? 
The 2nd amendment clearly was written to support the idea of an armed insurrection to overthrow a corrupt government, but who decides if the the government is corrupt enough to warrant overthrowing?
You will always find instances of malfeasance and overreach. When does it become too much? 
Trump and his cronies would have people believe that the election results were corrupted. How can Joe Citizen be assured one way or another? Do I have to audit the results of every county myself?


----------



## Johnny b

SeanLaurence said:


> I just had a look at a rolling stone article on MyMilitia. Nothing too surprising in it. Reminds me of stuff I read after the OK Federal building bombing.
> The question that I have about your country/constitution is: When do you get to use the guns?
> The 2nd amendment clearly was written to support the idea of an armed insurrection to overthrow a corrupt government, but who decides if the the government is corrupt enough to warrant overthrowing?
> You will always find instances of malfeasance and overreach. When does it become too much?
> Trump and his cronies would have people believe that the election results were corrupted. How can Joe Citizen be assured one way or another? Do I have to audit the results of every county myself?





> The question that I have about your country/constitution is: When do you get to use the guns?


For self defense, that's largely been a vague cultural assumption.
The Supreme Court decision on District of Columbia vs Heller seems to nail down the legality of gun ownership for self defense.
So, it's not really the Constitution that originally granted the gun rights of today, it was a recent Supreme Court ruling.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/District_of_Columbia_v._Heller



> The 2nd amendment clearly was written to support the idea of an armed insurrection to overthrow a corrupt government,


Well....not quite.
Historically, right after the Revolution when the concept of a nation of states was being kicked around, there was considerable concern about the loyalties of the many private armies/militias that might be involved in their own power plays in support of their home state.
This is why the term 'well regulated' appeared in the finished amendment. 
It was a consideration and demand for loyalty to a legitimate federal government and protection of it.

As you can likely see, most militias in the US today fail that test.


----------



## SeanLaurence

Johnny b said:


> For self defense, that's largely been a vague cultural assumption.
> The Supreme Court decision on District of Columbia vs Heller seems to nail down the legality of gun ownership for self defense.
> So, it's not really the Constitution that originally granted the gun rights of today, it was a recent Supreme Court ruling.
> 
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/District_of_Columbia_v._Heller
> 
> Well....not quite.
> Historically, right after the Revolution when the concept of a nation of states was being kicked around, there was considerable concern about the loyalties of the many private armies/militias that might be involved in their own power plays in support of their home state.
> This is why the term 'well regulated' appeared in the finished amendment.
> It was a consideration and demand for loyalty to a legitimate federal government and protection of it.
> 
> As you can likely see, most militias in the US today fail that test.


Heller was decided with a 5 - 4 vote. And a convincing argument could be made that it was decided incorrectly. 
Also, Heller didn't speak to a "Militia", it only discussed home defence. So does this mean you get to use a gun only for participation in a well regulated militia OR to defend your home? No sport shooting or hunting for you?
This should probably be discussed over on "guns"


----------



## Johnny b

SeanLaurence said:


> Heller was decided with a 5 - 4 vote. And a convincing argument could be made that it was decided incorrectly.
> Also, Heller didn't speak to a "Militia", it only discussed home defence. So does this mean you get to use a gun only for participation in a well regulated militia OR to defend your home? No sport shooting or hunting for you?
> This should probably be discussed over on "guns"


I think it means a close vote doesn't count for much 
Convincing or not, close or not, it seemed to settle the issue of gun ownership.
Now it's about circumstances and mentality of the gun owner. Such as registration, felony arrests or spousal abuse. There are many that shouldn't be allowed to own firearms and that's the issue few want to discuss rationally.

As far as any 'militia' comment from the SC, I haven't heard/read of any challenges one way or another. But I haven't been looking, either.
But if you want to know about how the 2nd addressed it originally, you'll need to do some reading up on the mentality and concerns of the times when it was written.


----------



## Wino

How long do we have to wait for verifiable voting fraud in 2020?? Still trying to centrifuge it out of some secret sauce or just a idle (or is that addled) minds imagination??


----------



## Johnny b

How long you ask?

'Stupidity' is forever.
'Ignorance'.......well ....we'll just have to wait and see....

lol!


----------



## Johnny b

I have read recently that a majority of the Trump Party ( aka GOP ) thinks the election was stolen.

Doesn't say much for public education.


----------



## Wino

That's depressing !! I'm running out of daylight - they need to really hyper speed this conviction of insurrectionist so I can get in some major gloating before cremation.😤


----------



## Johnny b

BTW.......Happy Birthday.


----------



## Johnny b

Seeing how this thread was generated in support of conspiracy theories, this news article became worthy in response:

* Conspiracy theories paint fraudulent reality of Jan. 6 riot *
https://apnews.com/article/televisi...ies-congress-0ddc173391135ac2cdaa335e3c9b4881

And here's the transcript of Trump's speech just before the January 6th attack"

* Transcript of Trump's speech at rally before US Capitol riot *
https://apnews.com/article/election...-siege-media-e79eb5164613d6718e9f4502eb471f27

An enormous collection of lies followed by:


> And we fight. We fight like hell. And if you don't fight like hell, you're not going to have a country anymore.


----------



## Johnny b

Broken or not, the 'clock' still tics   

* Key Trump adviser Bernard Kerik hands Jan. 6 panel trove of documents *
https://thehill.com/policy/national...rd-kerik-hands-jan-6-panel-trove-of-documents



> Former New York City Police Commissioner Bernard Kerik, an adviser to former President Trump, provided the House select committee investigating the Jan. 6 riot with a trove of documents in response to a subpoena by the panel for efforts involving overturning the election.


* Former NYC police commissioner hands papers to Capitol riot committee detailing schemes to keep Trump in power *
https://news.yahoo.com/former-nyc-police-commissioner-hands-190859560.html



> Bernard Kerik, a former New York City Police commissioner and an ally of both Mr Trump's and of former New York City mayor Rudy Giuliani, reportedly also gave investigators a "privilege log" that outlines everything he did not provide to the panel.
> 
> Politico reported that one of the documents not included in the trove is titled "DRAFT LETTER FROM POTUS TO SEIZE EVIDENCE IN THE INTEREST OF NATIONAL SECURITY FOR THE 2020 ELECTION."


----------



## Johnny b

About those lies concerning voter fraud in Georgia.......
(hey Jack, didn't you once live there?)

* Debunked: Trump claimed thousands of 'dead' voters in Georgia. The state election board found only four *
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/...mp-dead-voters-georgia-election-b1983011.html



> The findings were revealed after _The Associated Press_ analysed a recording of the hour-long call and checked Mr Trump's claims against actual facts.
> 
> Shortly after the election, Mr Trump called Georgia Secretary of State Brad Raffensperger trying to convince him to "find" enough votes for him to win the state. During the call, Mr Trump gave the official a sales pitch filled with erroneous information in an attempt to convince him to step in and manipulate the results to his benefit.


I am shocked. Just shocked I tell you!

* AP FACT CHECK: Trump's made-up claims of fake Georgia votes *
https://apnews.com/article/ap-fact-...ions-atlanta-c23d10e5299e14daee6109885f7dafa9

Wow.....what an incredible liar.

Hey Jack......I read where Trump is going to give a press conference on January 6th to commemorate/celebrate his attempt to overthrow our government and his struggle to retain power.
Be sure to not miss it.
But if you do, I suspect this thread ( your thread ) will contain some interesting info about it


----------



## Wino

Trumps "My Struggles" to be published soon. Not sure if this will be before or after burning down the Capitol.🤪


----------



## Johnny b

Chawbacon said:


> ........................... You will reverence Jan 6th as being much more dangerous than the looting, burning, destruction, assaults, and murders that happen in primarily Democrat run cities. ............................


Indeed I do.
Sedition, insurrection, revolutions and civil wars that follow are much more serious than street crimes.

This came up in USAToday:

* Fact check roundup: Debunking false narratives about the Jan. 6 Capitol riot *
https://news.yahoo.com/fact-check-roundup-debunking-false-080008061.html

It kinda looks like the article is addressing much of what you've claimed.



My position: arrest all criminals.


----------



## SeanLaurence

Arrrg. This is why people don't trust the news media. The Yahoo News article you shared states:
"Biden legally won the presidential race by more than 7 million votes"
As I am sure you know, despite this being an accurate representation of the disparity in the number of votes cast, Biden's win was based on his wining 306 electoral college votes vs Trump's 232. This detail was presented below the (read more) fold, and still leaves the reader ignorant as to how US presidents are selected.


----------



## Johnny b

Sean?
I went back to that link:

This is what I read:



> Biden legally won the presidential race by more than 7 million votes, and his victory was certified by the Electoral College.


And if you follow the link in that quote you come to this:



> As vote counts continued to add up in the days after Election Day, President-elect Joe Biden's lead in several key battleground states grew, pushing him to his Electoral College victory over President Donald Trump.


I don't see any issues.


----------



## SeanLaurence

Johnny b said:


> Sean?
> I went back to that link:
> I don't see any issues.


I do. The reader shouldn't have to click the link to get that clarification. 
I understand the urge to paint the election as a landslide, but it does not serve the electorate if the point that the electoral college victory was uncomfortably close is not clear.


> If Trump picked up the right mix of 42,921 votes in Arizona (10,457), Georgia (11,779), and Wisconsin (20,682), the Electoral College would have been tied at 269 all. The House would have then decided the election. Republicans will hold the majority of state delegations in the new Congress, and they undoubtedly would have chosen Trump.
> https://www.cfr.org/blog/2020-election-numbers


There are so many issues with how a president is elected in the US., and yet, nobody is talking about overhauling the system.


----------



## SeanLaurence

It is like they were reading my mind over at the NYT:
https://www.nytimes.com/2022/01/03/opinion/us-democracy-constitution.html


----------



## Johnny b

SeanLaurence said:


> I do. The reader shouldn't have to click the link to get that clarification.
> I understand the urge to paint the election as a landslide, but it does not serve the electorate if the point that the electoral college victory was uncomfortably close is not clear.
> 
> There are so many issues with how a president is elected in the US., and yet, nobody is talking about overhauling the system.


Sorry, I simply see no need for a clarification.
IMO, it wasn't muddled to start with when fully viewed.



> There are so many issues with how a president is elected in the US., and yet, nobody is talking about overhauling the system.


Currently, there are changes being made to voting laws on the state level and you might have seen the last of a an election that represents the will of the voter in the US.

Here's a thought....even with the perfect method of electing an official, all it takes is a corrupt effort to void it. 
Trump has tried just that. Fortunately he failed.But it has shown there is a dangerous mood in the US that no longer supports the concept of a free and democratic society let alone a system of laws.

The problem is, who decides what is fair and not fair?
And even if fair, how do you restrict the attempts of a 'Trump' to corrupt it?

The US is in such turmoil, the out going 2016 President hasn't even been arrested for an attempted insurrection.


----------



## Johnny b

SeanLaurence said:


> It is like they were reading my mind over at the NYT:
> https://www.nytimes.com/2022/01/03/opinion/us-democracy-constitution.html


Interesting article.

IMO, the biggest problem is that there is a sizable portion of the US, large but not yet a majority, that no longer want a democratic society.
They appear to favor authoritarian/dictatorial leadership.


----------



## Johnny b

Peter Navarro on how to overthrow a legal government:

* 'Do you realize you're describing a coup?': MSNBC host challenges Trump aide after he described plans to overturn the 2020 election *
https://www.businessinsider.com/ari-melber-challenge-peter-navarro-says-describing-coup-2022-1



> Peter Navarro described Trump allies' plans to decertify the 2020 election results to MSNBC.
> He detailed the plans to challenge the results in battleground states.
> Host Ari Melber shot back, asking: "Do you realize you are describing a coup?"


Interview posted on Twitter ( a video ) :

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1478531569459646467
And Peter has even figured a way to monetize his efforts:

* Former Trump adviser Peter Navarro is promoting an election fraud board game *
https://www.businessinsider.com/for...ro-election-fraud-board-game-2022-1?r=US&IR=T



> "Want to know how the Democrats stole the 2020 election? Play the game. Want to know how Tony Fauci likely helped create a deadly virus in a communist Chinese bioweapons lab? Play the game. Want to get to the bottom of the Russia collusion hoax? Yep. Play the game," Navarro says in the video.


So save your nickles and dimes and order your own personal copy of the game......for only $49.95.....making Peter wealthier and rationalizing the destruction of your freedom. (  )

( Jack: hope you enjoy the game as much as I did reading about it lol )


----------



## Johnny b

Chawbacon said:


> .............................
> 
> Since you like to bring up Steve Bannon all the time, I decided to look up what the Gateway Pundit had to say on this. Seems like they are claiming this was a set up by the deep state. Personally, I am not sure; however, I will wait to see how things shake out. Lots for you to read here Johnny. Have fun!
> .....................................


No, actually, 'all the time', it's Trump 
But anyway, I've found it interesting the consistency of the comments you make, only to be eventually shown in a negative light.

You post and this pops up:

* Election Falsehoods Surged on Podcasts Before Capitol Riots, Researchers Find *
https://www.nytimes.com/2022/01/04/...-spotify-podcast-election-misinformation.html

And guess whose image is above the article?












> The biggest offender in Brookings's analysis was Stephen K. Bannon, Mr. Trump's former adviser.


........................



> I decided to look up what the Gateway Pundit had to say on this


Yeah


----------



## Johnny b

Chawbacon said:


> Here you go Johnny. Please take the time to actually listen to what Jovan Pulitzer has to say and the data he provides................


Jack...lol.
Another of your wonderful sources just popped up in the news.

Yep. Jovan Pulitzer.

This is a news article .....but the language Mr Pulitzer uses is so foul, it would drive the TSG censor into fits and get me a warning if I quoted certain content lol!!!!

* Election-Fraud Stars Vow to Stab Each Other-'With the Truth' *
https://www.thedailybeast.com/elect...clements-vow-to-stab-each-otherwith-the-truth

I can quote this mild statement:
Jovan:


> "I will stab you in the face with the truth," inventor Jovan Pulitzer warned a rival.


And this:


> The crackup between Clements and Pulitzer mirrors the larger chaos in the world of election-fraud personalities on the right. While the false claims of election tampering have provided great fodder for conservative media and Republican lawmakers looking to limit voting, the personalities behind the conspiracy theories have found themselves holding the bag.


I almost fell out of my chair I was laughing so hard.

Thanks, Jack 
Love your source material


----------



## Johnny b

tic-toc Jack.

About that Arizona recount by those zany Cyber Ninjas:

*Election officials rebut claims in Republican-led Arizona review of Trump's 2020 loss*
https://www.reuters.com/world/us/el...d-arizona-review-trumps-2020-loss-2022-01-05/



> "We determined that nearly every finding included faulty analysis, inaccurate claims, misleading conclusions and a lack of understanding of federal and state election laws," the report says of the audit, which Arizona Republican senators contracted out to a private company called Cyber Ninjas.
> 
> According to the report, the county analysis identified 22 claims that were misleading, 41 that included flawed or misstated analysis and 13 that were demonstrably false.


Heartbreaking, eh?


----------



## Johnny b

Hey Jack......your buds over at Cyber Ninja are getting a lot of press these days and now it appears they are closing shop along with the decision by a judge to impose a $50,000 a day fine until certain documents are presented to his court.

Sounds like your authoritative source might have been working with a busted clock (  )

*Cyber Ninjas, company that led Arizona GOP election 'audit,' is shutting down *
https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/po...ona-gop-election-audit-shutting-down-n1287145



> Cyber Ninjas, the company that led a partisan review of 2020 ballots in Arizona, is closing down following a scathing report by election officials and the threat of $50,000 a day in fines.
> 
> "Cyber Ninjas is shutting down. All employees have been let go," Rod Thomson, the company's representative, said in a text message Thursday evening.


Further:


> ...............Trump's top cybersecurity official at the time said the election was "the most secure in American history." Then-Attorney General William Barr also said the Justice Department had found no evidence of widespread voter fraud.


Busted clocks and a new meaning to a 'Pulitzer' Prize?


----------



## Johnny b

Chawbacon said:


> Just a thread to track and discuss the accusations/rebuttals resulting from forensic audits and other investigations of the 2020 Election that are ongoing in Arizona and Georgia with potentially more States to be added.
> 
> *Please note that this is not intended to be another Bash Trump thread. As in, I do not care about inflammatory statements that Trump, Biden, or their surrogates, have to say about any process, organization, or individual involved in the audit process. Rather this is a thread to seriously look at election integrity and to analyze reported information when it comes to the various State voting processes. So please try to stay on topic. *


LOL!!!

And here we are....the backers of sedition and insurrection scammed?
Fitting..............

* MAGA Audit Fans Turn on Cyber Ninjas After Court Ruling *
https://www.thedailybeast.com/cyber-ninjas-attacked-by-maga-audit-fans-after-court-ruling



> After a disastrous day in court on Thursday, the company behind Arizona's chaotic Maricopa County election "audit" is disbanding, and now some rightwing fans are furiously wondering if it was all just a big scam.
> ............
> The move comes as a blow to audit dead-enders who have long insisted that Cyber Ninjas secretly has proof of Donald Trump's 2020 victory-but who are now smearing the group as "grifters."
> ...........
> Hannah, however, warned that the $50,000 sanctions would begin on Friday, and were applicable to individuals, not just the now-defunct company. (edit: ouch!  )


No kind words for Jovan Pulitzer, either.
Shocking, just shocking lol.


----------



## Labrador101

Wino said:


> Porn sites have better political info than either of these sources ! LOL


Hey I auditioned and got the part, in a PORNO movie, I'm the Husband that goes to Work


----------



## Johnny b

* Swing State Trumpers Forged Letters to National Archives in Harebrained Scheme to Overturn Election *
https://news.yahoo.com/swing-state-trumpers-forged-letters-145502210.html



> Pro-Trump groups in Arizona and Michigan attempted to fool the National Archives by sending forged certificates of ascertainment declaring Trump the recipient of the state's 2020 electors. The Jan. 6 committee now has those fake certificates, thanks to the secretaries of State for both swing states, Politico reported on Monday.
> 
> The National Archives shared the forged documents with state officials, informing them it would not accept the fakes.


Hey Jack.....I gotta say.....this has been a fantastic thread


----------



## Johnny b

OK....if a broken clock is correct two times a day, Mike Lindell needs a psychiatric intervention. Maybe even arrested.

* MyPillow Guy Mike Lindell Just Made His Most Bonkers Claim Yet *
https://news.yahoo.com/mypillow-guy-mike-lindell-just-035542309.html



> "We already have all the pieces of the puzzle," Lindell said on Real America's Voice this week. "We have enough evidence to put everybody in prison for life, 300-and-some million people."


* MyPillow CEO Mike Lindell says he has evidence to put 300 million in jail for election fraud *
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/...llow-mike-lindell-2020-election-b1991885.html


> "It's so amazing, all the things that we have," he told conservative news channel Real America's Voice in an interview that aired on Tuesday. "We have all the pieces of the puzzle. You talk about evidence. We have enough evidence to put everyone in prison for life, 300 and some million people, we have that back all the way to November and December."


No doubt, even pundits at Fox are likely confused:










Just say 'No'.

tic-toc!
No worries, Donald, Mike's got yer back......lol!


----------



## Johnny b

Chawbacon said:


> .........................* Rather this is a thread to seriously look at election integrity and to analyze reported information when it comes to the various State voting processes. So please try to stay on topic.
> ..................*


It is amazing the path this thread has taken.
From false claims of fraud done by Biden supporters to actual fraud committed by the Trump camp.
And here we are with some more info about a recent post I made:

* Michigan AG says scheme to overthrow election with fake electors 'may go all the way to the top' *
https://news.yahoo.com/michigan-ag-...lectors-may-go-all-the-way-top-090042716.html



> Michigan Attorney General Dana Nessel appeared on _The Rachel Maddow Show_ Thursday, where she spoke about the scheme in which Republicans in several states that President Biden won forged election documents in an attempt to give the election to former President Trump. Fraudulent electors in Michigan, Wisconsin, Arizona, Nevada and Georgia sent documents to the National Archives to certify the election for Trump, despite Biden having won.


I remember a long time ago when conservative Republicans were pragmatic.
I remember a Richard Nixon that stepped down from office because......
he lied to Congress about wire tapping.

And here we are....with an x-President that openly led sedition and insurrection, was impeached twice...still active in national politics....and, some claim, if not a driving force in the next Congressional elections, a likely candidate in the 2024 Presidential election. 
And inept....from his death cult policies concerning the Covid-19 pandemic to the degradation of our infrastructure. 
The guy lies to everyone ....every day.
And pie in the sky promises he makes and doesn't accomplish.

The public still loves him. Well, those that elected him still love him.
Yeah, from Qanon to white supremacists, Tea Party radicals to Libertarian anarchists. And let's not forget the religious right and all the militant militias.

A promise here, a promise there, promises-promises everywhere.

I remember a long time ago when conservative Republicans were pragmatic.
A long time ago.

Now they aren't even good at faking election results


----------



## Johnny b

Chawbacon said:


> .......................
> 
> Exactly what are you barking about here? Are you saying that the January 6th protest equated to a civil war, where the aggressors did not bring firepower (this mean lots and lots of guns) to accomplish their designated mission? As I tried to make clear, an actual civil war scares the living daylights out of me and I have no desire to see that happen.


And yet this doesn't seem to bother you in the least.

* Tucker Carlson repeatedly interviewed a man he described as a disabled veteran. The FBI is accusing the same man of organizing an Oath Keepers militia to aid the Capitol insurrection. *
https://www.businessinsider.com/tuc...oath-keeper-aided-capitol-insurrection-2022-1



> According to the indictment, Caldwell was one of the coordinators of the Oath Keepers' quick reaction force teams on January 6, readying members to rapidly transport stockpiled firearms into Washington, DC, "in support of operations aimed at using force to stop the lawful transfer of presidential power."
> 
> "If we had someone standing by at a dock ramp (one near the Pentagon for sure) we could have our Quick Response Team with the heavy weapons standing by, quickly load them and ferry them across the river to our waiting arms," Caldwell said, according to the indictment.


And this:

https://www.justice.gov/opa/pr/lead...dicted-federal-court-seditious-conspiracy-and



> Exactly what are you barking about here?


----------



## Johnny b

For all those that aren't visually challenged:


----------



## Johnny b

Chawbacon said:


> ........................
> 
> *Please note that this is not intended to be another Bash Trump thread. As in, I do not care about inflammatory statements that Trump, Biden, or their surrogates, have to say about any process, organization, or individual involved in the audit process..............*


Jack, just how is it you want to address reality?
Trump was not only an element of the 2020 election ( a candidate ), we're now finding out his campaign was also involved in attempting to seat fraudulent electors in 7 states.

The 'count' has ended. Trump lost. Period.
But fraud is still a concern in that 2020 election process.

* Michigan GOP co-chair says Trump campaign directed fake electors, per CNN audio *
https://news.yahoo.com/michigan-gop-co-chair-says-004310038.html



> Michigan Republican Party Co-Chair Meshawn Maddock said that the Trump presidential campaign directed Republicans in Michigan to seat fake GOP Electoral College delegates, according to audio obtained by CNN.


* Trump campaign officials, led by Rudy Giuliani, oversaw fake electors plot in 7 states *
https://www.cnn.com/2022/01/20/poli...icials-rudy-giuliani-fake-electors/index.html


> Trump campaign officials, led by Rudy Giuliani, oversaw efforts in December 2020 to put forward illegitimate electors from seven states that Trump lost, according to three sources with direct knowledge of the scheme.


Why aren't those involved arrested and awaiting trial?
According to the accusations and other news reports, they're obviously not innocent.

In the past, you have made an issue about jailing H Clinton for supposed email infractions.
( btw, I didn't vote for H Clinton )
But your position for sedition and insurrection by Trump seems more like acceptance.

Would you please explain why those supposed email infractions are a more serious crime/offense than the actual attempt to overthrow a legal government.


----------



## SeanLaurence

Johnny b said:


> Why aren't those involved arrested and awaiting trial?


I am sure that you are old enough to remember Watergate. 
Back then it took a long time to see everyone prosecuted, much more time than we have seen elapse on this case.
And this case is a different animal: The events of Jan 6 2021 at the Capital still need to be prosecuted from the bottom up. This takes a ton of resources for the DOJ, which I believe was eviscerated by the former guy's administration. And in the mean time this pandemic thing is slowing down everything, with people working remotely and others off sick with Omicron.
Patience grasshopper (Another 70's reference)


----------



## Johnny b

My question was rhetorical lol.


----------



## SeanLaurence

Johnny b said:


> My question was rhetorical lol.


I am wondering if the prosecutions are being timed to do the most damage to Republicans prior to the 2022 midterms.

I sometimes ask myself if Republicans are really that bad, and it does not take long to remember the reasons why they are. 
Would it be fair game for Trump to be in trial on election day? Sure.


----------



## Johnny b

SeanLaurence said:


> .................
> 
> I sometimes ask myself if Republicans are really that bad, and it does not take long to remember the reasons why they are.
> Would it be fair game for Trump to be in trial on election day? Sure.


I'd rather it be immediate.

Are they really that bad?

Well, here's the evidence:

* Read the never-issued Trump order that would have seized voting machines *
https://news.yahoo.com/read-never-issued-trump-order-172157363.html

This pdf:
https://www.politico.com/f/?id=0000017e-7db3-d1fc-ad7f-fff3fd720000

And imo, every member of Congress that has backed and continues to promote Trump's play for power is just as culpable and responsible for sedition and acts of insurrection as Trump himself.


----------



## Johnny b

Well...well...well.........

* A former Trump official admitted he helped Rudy Giuliani with the fake electors scheme *
https://news.yahoo.com/former-trump-official-admitted-helped-061415234.html



> A former Trump campaign adviser admitted to playing a role in a scheme to have illegitimate pro-Trump supporters falsely certify the election for him in seven states won by President Joe Biden.


What a shock! 

edit:


> * Rather this is a thread to seriously look at election integrity and to analyze reported information when it comes to the various State voting processes. So please try to stay on topic. *


:up:

lol!


----------



## Johnny b

> *Rather this is a thread to seriously look at election integrity and to analyze reported information when it comes to the various State voting processes. So please try to stay on topic. *


* Pro-Trump Death Threats Prompt Bills in 3 States to Protect Election Workers *
https://www.usnews.com/news/top-new...bills-in-3-states-to-protect-election-workers



> In all, Reuters documented more than 850 threats and hostile messages https://graphics.reuters.com/USA-ELECTION/THREATS/mopanwmlkva to U.S. election officials and workers. Nearly all the communications echoed Trump's baseless claims that he lost the 2020 election because of fraud. More than 100 of the threats could meet the federal threshold for criminal prosecution, according to law professors and attorneys who reviewed them.


Time and time again, it's primarily Trump and his followers committing/attempting fraud.
And not a simple majority of examples, almost exclusively all 'Trump' all the time. And it's done with violence, the threat of violence, misinformation and lies.
Worst of all.....a large segment of the population approves. 
Even Congress.


----------



## Johnny b

And the beat goes on...........

* Poll: Nearly 6 in 10 Republicans say they will not vote for any candidate who admits Biden won 'fair and square' *
https://news.yahoo.com/poll-nearly-...mits-biden-won-fair-and-square-162231610.html



> Despite a mountain of evidence showing the 2020 presidential contest wasn't rigged against Donald Trump, nearly 6 in 10 Republicans and Republican-leaning independents (57 percent) now say they will not vote in upcoming elections for any candidate who admits that Joe Biden won the presidency "fair and square."


----------



## Johnny b

No doubt Jack will be in shortly 
So I'll post this so that we have an inkling of what's about to happen and get it over with lol!

Conspiracy theories here we come!

* Judge Won't Budge as Voting Machine Report Fuels Conspiracies *
https://www.thedailybeast.com/judge-wont-budge-as-voting-machine-report-fuels-conspiracies

And now all we have to do is equate 'possibility' to 'fact'.
( and the logic that follows........ screw the facts, theories are the evidence  )


----------



## Johnny b

Arizona in the 'election' news again.

* US Senate candidate Jim Lamon explains why he falsely claimed to be an Arizona elector *
https://www.azcentral.com/story/new...xplains-false-trump-elector-claim/9280572002/



> "The Republican electors put forth a valid document that said, in the event that the election certification was overturned, there would be no excuse not to recognize those electors," Lamon said during an interview that aired Sunday on KTVK-TV's "Politics Unplugged" program.


However:



> The document Lamon signed contained no language that explained it was a backup plan.
> 
> Rather, the document described Lamon and the other 10 signees as the "duly elected and qualified electors" from Arizona.
> 
> They were not.


Time and time again, Trump supporters are shown to be liars intending to corrupt the election process.


----------



## Johnny b

* Trump backer, 4 others charged with voter fraud in Wisconsin *
https://apnews.com/article/business...ns-elections-f7e490e5a73b54110e077c824c4e3bb3


----------



## Johnny b

Of interest to those living and voting in Ohio:

* Ohio refers 27 election fraud cases involving 2020 votes *
https://www.10tv.com/article/news/p...otes/530-a925be36-d6c8-40b5-868a-0687d8d97b91



> Ohio's elections chief said Tuesday that his office's routine review of potential voter fraud has turned up 62 new potential cases, involving a tiny fraction of nearly 6 million votes cast in the 2020 general election.
> 
> .....................
> 
> Of those, 31 are non-citizens who registered to vote but did not cast a ballot. The other 31 may have cast illegal ballots, including 27 in the 2020 general election, he said.


Stop the Steal?
Really?

Time and time again......nothing has been found and verified to have stolen Trump's title as President.
He was simply a loser.


----------



## Johnny b

* Colorado election official Tina Peters indicted as part of 2020 election probe *
https://www.axios.com/colorado-elec...ion-dec46c5c-21be-45a8-b367-a4c56d2b7861.html



> A grand jury indicted a Colorado election official on 1o counts as part of an investigation into tampering with the results of the 2020 election.
> ..............
> *Why it matters:* Peters is a nationally known promoter of debunked election fraud conspiracies and a Republican candidate for secretary of state, the Colorado office that oversees elections.
> ........................
> 
> Deputy clerk Belinda Knisley is charged with six criminal counts, including five felonies, and a warrant was issued for her arrest.


----------



## Johnny b

Michigan's 74th district sounds like a cesspool.

*Michigan House primary winner wants to 'decertify' the 2020 election. His victory could be a sign of Trump's influence *
https://www.fox17online.com/news/po...s-victory-could-be-a-sign-of-trumps-influence



> Robert "RJ" Regan prides himself in being a grassroots conservative and thinks his ground game helped lead him to a close victory in Tuesday's 74th district GOP special primary


And here comes the 'cesspool' issue:

* Michigan GOP Candidate Tells Daughters 'If Rape Is Inevitable, Lie Back And Enjoy It' *
https://www.yahoo.com/news/michigan-gop-candidate-tells-daughters-190734197.html

What the hell is wrong with those people?


> *His victory could be a sign of Trump's influence*


How can any person so amoral ever be trusted with a political office?

A grassroots conservative?

Must be 1984 all over again.


----------



## Johnny b

An off-shoot from the fraudulent voter claims that lead to the failed insurrection:

* Wisconsin lawsuit accuses 3 Republican lawmakers of insurrection *
https://news.yahoo.com/wisconsin-lawsuit-accuses-3-republican-183025728.html



> Wisconsin liberals on Thursday filed a federal lawsuit alleging that Republican Sen. Ron Johnson and two other GOP congressmen are insurrectionists in violation of the U.S. Constitution for their words and actions in support of Donald Trump leading up to the riot at the U.S. Capitol on Jan. 6, 2021.


It makes interesting press, and it's something to follow. But I doubt it'll get much serious attention. Putin's war on Ukraine and our far right supporting Putin is center stage.

Something bizarre is happening within the GOP.
https://news.yahoo.com/people-cant-agree-whats-most-111848952.html
This video is posted where Greene not only incoherently attacks Democrats, she also briefly states the US should get out of the global economy.
Check out her spiel at :50


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1502370961840029698
I wonder if the few capitalists left in the GOP, are scratching their heads over that one 
I suspect/expect a lot of CEOs, industrialists and bankers are going 'What the...."
Hey baby, you can't make America great that way lol.


----------



## Johnny b

Something bizarre is happening within the GOP. And it didn't just start.

For quite a while, descriptions of the GOP tossed around have included extremist positions from excessive nationalism ( aka fascism ) to white supremacy, libertarian anarchists, militant militias to a host of criminal opportunists.

After reviewing MT Greene's video, above, and the crowd's reaction, I think there is another element being overlooked.
Listen to Greene, what she's promoting and the crowd's approval.
IMO, that's the resurgence of the Dixiecrat.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dixiecrat

And their flag has been seen at many Trump events, including the failed insurrection of Jan 6th.
The Dixiecrat Party Flag.










Derived from Wikipedia: Dixiecrats were once part of the Democrat Party,
Rejecting the Democrat position on segregation, they structured as an independent party in support of it and even ran a candidate for the Oval Office, but primarily functioned within State governments in the south.
Their failed national candidate, Thurmond, flipped over to the Republican Party in 1964.

Now an element of US society that had at one time focused on destroying the concept of a national government of united states, ( their official name was *"States' Rights Democratic Party"*) infused themselves into the political party that had at one time defeated them and their goals.
The quip, 'The South will rise again' should have been taken more seriously, imo.

To the bizarre:
Dixiecrats being loyal to and lead by an opulent New York 'carpet bagger'.

Funny ( but not ha ha ) how such distinctly opposed mentalities that at one time were at odds with each other, can embrace each other to accommodate the same goal. The end of a republic.

It's no wonder the current GOP is so vehemently opposed to discussing CRT.
It's looking like influence from that old Dixiecrat mentality.


----------



## Johnny b

It figures 

* Trump backers push election change that would make counting slower, costlier and less accurate  *
https://www.politico.com/news/2022/03/26/trump-allies-elections-vote-counting-00020574



> Trump supporters are pushing to prohibit machine counting of ballots in future elections around the country, which election officials say could make vote-counting slower, more expensive and - most importantly - less accurate.
> 
> Legislators in at least six states this year have introduced proposals to prohibit the use of ballot tabulating machines.


Adrian Fontes, former Arizona Maricopa County recorder said:


> "At well over 2.6 million voters, if we got 80 percent turnout, you could expect a hand count to take something in the neighborhood of two to three months, at best," he continued. "It would probably cost into the tens of millions of dollars."


Trump backers push election change that would make counting slower, costlier and less accurate.....and easier to overthrow.


----------



## Johnny b

Interesting how this thread was intended to display a fraudulent election and Democrats as the bad actors.

And then judges threw out the liars and recounts reinforced the validity of the original results.

But a danger persists:

*  Lawmakers worry 2020 will provide a blueprint for stealing a future election *
https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/el...-blueprint-stealing-future-election-rcna24568


> Officials fear that unless Congress changes the 19th century law controlling presidential elections, a future election could be overturned. Legally.
> 
> Both a federal judge and the top Republican on the House committee investigating the Jan. 6 riot have now reached the same stark conclusion: There is evidence to suggest Donald Trump's effort to overturn the 2020 election could be a crime.
> 
> After watching 2020 unfold, some elected officials and election experts fear the Electoral Count Act could be exploited in ways that might give Trump or someone else a victory in 2024, whether they win enough votes or not. No laws even need be broken.


----------



## Johnny b

More to the above:

* Trump Allies Continue Legal Drive to Erase His Loss, Stoking Election Doubts *
https://www.nytimes.com/2022/04/18/us/politics/trump-allies-election-decertify.html



> Now, some of the same confidants who tried and failed to invalidate the results based on a set of bogus legal theories are pushing an even wilder sequel: that by "decertifying" the 2020 vote in key states, the outcome can still be reversed.


An important article.
But too much to copy and paste.

It's about continued sedition by Trump supporters.


----------



## Johnny b

Guilty Oath Keeper cuts a deal.

* Second Oath Keepers member pleads guilty to seditious conspiracy *
https://www.washingtonpost.com/dc-md-va/2022/04/29/ulrich-oathkeepers-guilty-jan6/



> Ulrich pleaded guilty to two of five felony counts, seditious conspiracy and obstructing an official proceeding. The certification of the 2020 election results in Congress was on the day of the attack. Each count is punishable by up to 20 years in prison.
> 
> ..............
> Ulrich said in plea papers that he "and others agreed to take part in the plan developed by Rhodes" to "stop the lawful transfer of presidential power," by force if necessary, and that he acted "to influence or affect the conduct of the United States government and to retaliate" against it.


----------



## Johnny b

Details continue to mount of the attempted overthrow of the US government.

* Evidence mounts of GOP involvement in Trump election schemes *
https://apnews.com/article/capitol-...mark-meadows-296ddf04ffaacec07f548a2a997af448

Obviously sedition and insurrection.

History will also record the events and actions of Trump, extremist legislators of the GOP and supporters ( aka libertarian anarchists, white supremacists, national socialists/MAGA, militant militias, Dixiecrats and of course Qanon ).......as treason.

For the purpose of authoritarian rule.


----------



## Johnny b

So the saying goes, 'once an addict, always an addict'.

Lindell is in the news.... again. 

* MyPillow CEO Mike Lindell wants to file lawsuits in all 50 states to keep pushing election fraud claims *
https://www.businessinsider.com/mike-lindell-lawsuits-50-states-voting-fraud-2020-election-2022-5

Same old line of crap.

an aside in the article:


> Dominion filed a defamation lawsuit in February against Lindell seeking $1.3 billion in damages. However, Lindell told Insider that Dominion had "zero, zero, zero" chance of succeeding and claimed the lawsuits were part of cancel culture.


Cancel culture?.......it's about damages from his libelous and idiotic claims.

You should have taken Nancy Reagan's advice, just say no to drugs.


----------



## Wino

Lindell, like Trump, is a loser, with or without drugs.


----------



## Guest

Hello Everyone,

First time here and, worse, I'm not a citizen of the US of A. Strictly speaking, then, I have no real reason to intrude into a conversation, no matter how interesting, between Republicans and Democrats. As someone who is interested in the subject, however, I cannot help but notice that this appears to be an echo chamber of sorts, with the more vociferous dominating. Where are the Republican arguments to balance those of the Democrat-leaning and -supporting voices here?

I find Wino's signature quotations (and I am not singling her/him out in regard to the comments above) interesting. While H.L. Mencken's is arguably justifiable (I confess to sitting on the fence in regard to that one, it being dependent on the definition of the term "public"), I would hesitate to use Dilbert's, no matter how astute a cartoon character may appear to be. Would Ellison's observation, in the context of this thread and in light of the Durham investigation, that "You are not entitled to your opinion. You are entitled to your informed opinion. No one is entitled to be ignorant." may be more apt? May one mention Clinesmith and Sussmann in polite society?

As for a previous comment in this thread about conspiracy theories, well, a law undergraduate at Yale, Christopher Reid Cooper, had a friend and room-mate, John Rice, while there. John's sister, Susan, in time became President Obama's National Security Adviser and Cooper (I almost wrote "naturally") a judge, appointed to the federal bench by Mr Obama in 2014 - despite his tender years, as Bill Shakespeare almost said. And how does any of this matter? Well, Christopher Cooper is presiding over the Sussmann's trial.

I wrote a paper in early January 2021, before President-Elect Biden assumed office, in which I said that the faith of a very significant portion of the American public in the country's electoral system had been badly damaged because of perceptions of abuse. That those perceptions exist, whether correct or otherwise, is irrefutable. Given those perceptions, therefore, should Cooper recuse himself or is he ethically-justified in adjudicating the Sussmann trial?

The point of this missive is to demonstrate that the people who are major cogs in the "System" do not help themselves in situations such as this one and add to the perceptions of its abuse and cries of conspiracy, the same cries that the Democrat-leaning members of this thread hold in high contempt

As I said at the outset, I am not a US citizen, and could be justifiably told to go away and procreate. I would like to read, however, the replies of the Democrat-supporters to these observations.

Thanks in advance.


----------



## Johnny b

lmh44 said:


> Hello Everyone,
> 
> First time here and, worse, I'm not a citizen of the US of A. Strictly speaking, then, I have no real reason to intrude into a conversation, no matter how interesting, between Republicans and Democrats. As someone who is interested in the subject, however, I cannot help but notice that this appears to be an echo chamber of sorts, with the more vociferous dominating. Where are the Republican arguments to balance those of the Democrat-leaning and -supporting voices here?
> 
> ( edited for brevity )
> 
> Thanks in advance.


Welcome to the forum.
Interesting commentary.

Essentially the issue you advance concerns the tracks of dirty tricks by the H Clinton 2016 Presidential campaign.
Like all lies, the 'best' ones have a kernel of truth.
That kernel of 'truth' was exposed during the first 2 years of the Trump term.



> Where are the Republican arguments to balance those of the Democrat-leaning and -supporting voices here?


Balance?
What would that be?
Conceptionaly there are reality, BS and lies to advance and address.
How would balance be applied to a scenario involving that kind of mix?

I also suggest that your implication that the diversity of discussion is a Republican vs Democrat concern.... is misrepresented.
It's more an issue of addressing extremism.
The far Left hasn't the hold on the Democrat Party near to the almost absolute control of the GOP by the new Trumpism, a mixture of far right extremist groups I've mentioned in the past.
So it's been mostly the issues brought by Trumpism that are discussed.
Socialist elements of the Democrat Party were addressed in the forum elsewhere several years ago but there wasn't much interest.



> May one mention Clinesmith and Sussmann in polite society?


Certainly.
Just pointing out, this particular thread is about the ways and means the election count was accomplished for the 2020 election, not misdeeds by the Clinton group leading up to the 2016 election.
And it should be noted Biden has allowed the investigation to proceed.



> As for a previous comment in this thread about conspiracy theories.....


So you'll go there, too?
On faith.
meh.



> I wrote a paper in early January 2021, before President-Elect Biden assumed office, in which I said that the faith of a very significant portion of the American public in the country's electoral system had been badly damaged because of perceptions of abuse.


Wow....subtle sophistry .

Faith damaged because of perceptions of abuse.
Some might call it influence by propaganda.
Definitely considerable emotionalism derived from ignorance.
And toss in political extremism and the results are as you project.

It would be interesting to read your paper. Please post it or a link to it 



> The point of this missive is to demonstrate that the people who are major cogs in the "System" do not help themselves in situations such as this one and add to the perceptions of its abuse and cries of conspiracy, the same cries that the Democrat-leaning members of this thread hold in high contempt


Translation, Trump's innocent .
Be bold....you could have saved a lot of time at the keyboard.
You could have made the same impact with a one liner.
It's no secret Trump is trying to make the US into a one party system.
It's no secret his followers and supporters seek the same.

He was videotaped promoting sedition and orchestrating an attack on Congress in an attempt to overthrow an election 

[edited for spelling ]


----------



## Wino

> Where are the Republican arguments to balance those of the Democrat-leaning and -supporting voices here?


Welcome to the fray.
Simple answer. It's rather difficult to defend that which is based on outright lies, half truths and innuendo. Cork screw reasoning, contorted thinking, mixed in with delusional fantasy doesn't make for reasonable and sane intercourse. Personally, I'm not into extremism or conspiracy from either the left or right. Durham's investigation is much ado about nothing when compared to 1/6 no matter what their end determinations are made. Trumpism, in and of it's self, is pure evil, based on autocracy, fascism, isolationism, racism and eventually will lead to tacitly approved genocide in some form - as we've seen from the uptick in racial hate crimes from Trumpites. I reiterate that I've said many times before - IMHO, Electing DJT as president is the worst crime this nation has ever committed in it's entire history as a democratic republic. He may not be the cause, but he is the hypergolic catalyst. I'm hopeful this nation survives this buffoonery and emerges a better place.


----------



## Johnny b

Wino said:


> ..................
> Simple answer. It's rather difficult to defend that which is based on outright lies, half truths and innuendo. Cork screw reasoning, contorted thinking, mixed in with delusional fantasy doesn't make for reasonable and sane intercourse. ..........................


Indeed. :up:

And thus the 'ignore' button became a solution for one particular extremist


----------



## SeanLaurence

lmh44 said:


> this appears to be an echo chamber of sorts, with the more vociferous dominating. Where are the Republican arguments to balance those of the Democrat-leaning and -supporting voices here?


As a Canadian, I have not been made to feel unwelcome on this board - although JohhnyB has called me a Marxist number of times. 
There are a few people with more extreme conservative views that come by from time to time. But as you may have noticed, the GOP has chassed away anyone with moderate views from within their ranks, and so the discourse here reflects that.
I ran a poll here in Sept 2019, asking "Would the USA have been better off under Hillary Clinton?". The results were close. Based on that alone, I would disagree with your observation that this is a democrat leaning board.
https://forums.techguy.org/threads/would-the-usa-have-been-better-off-under-hillary-clinton.1233176/



> May one mention Clinesmith and Sussmann in polite society?


Yes, but why?
Clinesmith has been sentenced to 1 year probation for telling the FBI that Carter Page was not a CIA source when in fact he was. How is that lie relevant to anything? Perhaps he was protecting a source because he did not trust the FBI or his interrogator at the time.
The allegations against Sussmann are equally inconsequential. Durham says he broke the law by falsely telling the FBI official that he wasn't there on behalf of any client. Again, how did this lie change anything?

The Durham inquiry was put in motion by Trump in an effort to find some dirt on Democrats. There is always going to be a bit of dirt to find, but so far it has not amounted to much. So nobody cares. Is it good to have oversight to guard against corruption and malfeasance? Sure. Perhaps the GOP should have vetted Trump a bit better before accepting his candidacy in 2015.


----------



## Johnny b

SeanLaurence said:


> As a Canadian, I have not been made to feel unwelcome on this board - although JohhnyB has called me a Marxist number of times.
> ........................


Nah....you're not that deep into socialism 
But I do wonder sometimes......


----------



## Guest

Hello again,

My thanks to Wino and Johnny b for the welcome to the forum and their replies to my original post and to the others for their replies to it, as well.

In response to SeanLaurence's first point in his post, as a Centrist and Australian, I have not been made to feel unwelcome here, either.

Moving to Johnny b's point about editing my diatribe for the sake of brevity, I recall somebody once said that brevity is the soul of wit. As a research analyst in national security, any vestiges of either of those commendable characteristics have been lost to me over the course of many years in this field. Given that I am required to offer full and complete assessments of situations and themes, I have lost the ability to say in fewer words that which may be elaborated upon for the sake of clarity and unambiguity.

Moving further ahead in Johnny b's post,


Johnny b said:


> Translation, Trump's innocent .
> Be bold....you could have saved a lot of time at the keyboard.
> You could have made the same impact with a one liner.


I fail to see the nexus between what I wrote and your conclusion that I hinted that Trump is innocent. Setting aside the fact that I do not know of what crime he is allegedly guilty, I reiterate that I disdain wit, brevity and sound bites for elaboration. While the latter is generally tedious, it cannot really be replaced by "one-liners" in my field. That said, I also recognise that this medium is not overly conducive to drawn-out theses.

Returning to the first point of your response,


Johnny b said:


> Essentially the issue you advance concerns the tracks of dirty tricks by the H Clinton 2016 Presidential campaign.
> Like all lies, the 'best' ones have a kernel of truth.
> That kernel of 'truth' was exposed during the first 2 years of the Trump term.


Please elaborate, what was the "truth" to which you refer? Was it Trump's alleged association with Putin? I cannot respond to that point without elucidation.

Your next point is, at the risk of causing offence, a perceptive one.


Johnny b said:


> I also suggest that your implication that the diversity of discussion is a Republican vs Democrat concern.... is misrepresented.
> It's more an issue of addressing extremism.
> The far Left hasn't the hold on the Democrat Party near to the almost absolute control of the GOP by the new Trumpism, a mixture of far right extremist groups I've mentioned in the past.


If my reading of the North American press is any indication, the general perception among the 53 per cent of the US citizens who voted for Mr Biden in the last presidential election is that the 47 per cent who did not were influenced to one degree or another by extreme points of view put forward by the Republican party. That view has, if I am correct, given rise in part to the narrative of the "extreme Right", a connotation that is carried further in many instances by the media. Few media sources speak of an "extreme Left". And yet, as I point out to my university students, the Left can be just as vicious as the Right in many instances. Take Nazi Germany, for instance, or the Soviet Union, Cambodia and many others.

But returning to the issue at hand, yes, Trumpism will retain its hold on the Republican party for years to come, just as it will on the USA, as a whole, because of Trump's influence on the country's judicial apparatus, among other things. I do not refer here to only his Supreme Court nominations but to his administration's judicial appointments in the federal courts. That said, the far Left plays no small part in Mr Biden's decision-making. I suggest that the Squad and their affiliates have only a slightly less hold on the Democratic party, no matter what Mrs Pelosi, Messrs Nadler, Schumer and their supporters may think or say, than Mr Trump's supporters do on the Republican party.

If that reasoning is correct, I must ask again, where is the balance in the national discussion? What there appears to be in the USA today, especially in its media, are two polarised and diametrically-opposite factions who no longer wish to talk, discuss and debate these issues but rather seek to dismiss out of hand (I understand that the term used is "cancel") one another. That situation extends to the education sector with one side calling for "free speech" and the other decrying it. Lost in the fog of that war is any agreement as to what "free speech" actually is, a point that Elon Musk was forced to elaborate upon fairly recently.

I think that this post is becoming far too long, and I have not replied to all the points raised. Permit me to end for now with this reminder. I am a political centrist who firmly believes in democracy. The only way that we can have that political system is through educated (in the narrowest sense of that term) discourse. It was the lack of that discourse that led to my observation of a one-sided echo chamber. I trust that the attached paper, which was published on 5 January 2021, will elaborate on that point.

My thanks, once again, for the welcome to this forum and for engaging with me.


----------



## Johnny b

lmh44 said:


> Hello again,
> 
> My thanks to Wino and Johnny b for the welcome to the forum and their replies to my original post and to the others for their replies to it, as well.
> 
> ( edited for brevity )
> 
> My thanks, once again, for the welcome to this forum and for engaging with me.





> In response to SeanLaurence's first point in his post, as a Centrist and Australian, I have not been made to feel unwelcome here, either.


As Sean and I have brought out in discussion, the term 'Centrist' varies in ideology from one political system to the next.
I'm not familiar with Australian politics.



> Moving to Johnny b's point about editing my diatribe for the sake of brevity, I recall somebody once said that brevity is the soul of wit.


It could be but it was nothing other than keeping a reasonable length to posting.
There's little logic in re-posting a lengthy quote that would span the page.
When I finish my reply, I'll be doing the same again.
I assure you, it's not a dodge or slight.



> I fail to see the nexus between what I wrote and your conclusion that I hinted that Trump is innocent.


The subtle sophistry of what the Trump threads have seen as that of an apologist.
And tell us you are Australian and your quest is to understand why there isn't more response from Republicans.
Essentially, you position anyone not supportive of the fascist MAGA movement of being Democrat supporters.

You did post this in your previous post:


> The point of this missive is to demonstrate that the people who are major cogs in the "System" do not help themselves in situations such as this one and add to the perceptions of its abuse and cries of conspiracy, the same cries that the Democrat-leaning members of this thread hold in high contempt


You presented situations that weren't comparable as if they were and rationalized a scenario of innocence.



> Given that I am required to offer full and complete assessments of situations and themes, I have lost the ability to say in fewer words that which may be elaborated upon for the sake of clarity and unambiguity.


So?
Why do I have to repeat your lengthy discourse other than what I'm responding to?



> If my reading of the North American press is any indication, the general perception among the 53 per cent of the US citizens who voted for Mr Biden in the last presidential election is that the 47 per cent who did not were influenced to one degree or another by extreme points of view put forward by the Republican party.


Technically correct.
It would be better said the influence was derived from extremist elements within the Republican party. The supporters of Trump's far right MAGA efforts.



> While the latter is generally tedious, it cannot really be replaced by "one-liners" in my field.


So, is it your 'job' to be influencing us with wordy commentary?



> That said, I also recognise that this medium is not overly conducive to drawn-out theses.


Several things.
We in the forum know each other. A lot is said over time.
Politics is a dynamic. Support waxes and wains. Reasons vary.
And we don't get paid for our efforts. lol!

But that doesn't mean awareness is elusive.
As I've pointed out.



> Few media sources speak of an "extreme Left"


Already addressed.
Currently, their numbers and influence are low.
It's the far right generating the most controversy at the moment.



> But returning to the issue at hand, yes, Trumpism will retain its hold on the Republican party for years to come, just as it will on the USA, as a whole, because of Trump's influence on the country's judicial apparatus, among other things.


Yes, that and other things.
Especially the legislatures.
Trump's control of Justice will accommodate his control of the legislative process.
Sincerely, a pro analyst wouldn't have missed that important consideration.
Do I need to be wordy in presenting that reality?



> That said, the far Left plays no small part in Mr Biden's decision-making. I suggest that the Squad and their affiliates have only a slightly less hold on the Democratic party, no matter what Mrs Pelosi, Messrs Nadler, Schumer and their supporters may think or say, than Mr Trump's supporters do on the Republican party.


That's a pretty bold statement worthy of reams of discourse. lol.



> If that reasoning is correct, I must ask again, where is the balance in the national discussion?


Ah....that old 'If' game......'what if'?

There isn't and never will be 'balance' as long as there are extremes as major players.
The focus in the press is on those that have the most impact.

Extremist news outlets exist. Right and left wing.
Social media seems to have advanced into presenting news and political opinions.
And they seem to embrace the extremism of the far right.



> What there appears to be in the USA today, especially in its media, are two polarised and diametrically-opposite factions who no longer wish to talk, discuss and debate these issues but rather seek to dismiss out of hand (I understand that the term used is "cancel") one another.


There is a lot to that.
But it's rather simplistic at the same time.
There are factions within both political parties.
And they appeal to segments of the general population that are of like minds. It's how they get elected.
It's a hazard of democracy. When one radicalized group decides the concept, democracy, isn't working and chooses authoritarian leadership that present promises of a better future.
This is where we are in the US.

You want to consider balance, well here it is.
A choice. Over throw democracy, retain it.
Which one do you think will get the most press? The most commentary?



> I am a political centrist who firmly believes in democracy. The only way that we can have that political system is through educated (in the narrowest sense of that term) discourse. It was the lack of that discourse that led to my observation of a one-sided echo chamber.


So....why are you addressing us?
In what way am I or Sean or Wino supposed to support what we don't believe in?
And I should point out we don't always agree with each other.

You should be addressing the one far right radicalized member that intentionally posts using the form's ignore function as an excuse not to reply when presenting his commentary.

I suspect the reason you don't read much far right extremism at this site is because of the popularity of congregating at one of the many social media sites where they mindlessly repost each other with misinformation.

So, where is the magical balance at those social media sites?



> My thanks, once again, for the welcome to this forum and for engaging with me.


----------



## Johnny b

I skimmed your article.

It feels like a rightwing apologist's view of a lost election.


----------



## Wino

OMG!! Ken Paxton TX AG !! Accused felon and basically a RWN idiot. In a normal world this man wouldn't qualify for garbage detail. If Paxton had lost lawsuit quills sticking out, he'd look like a porcupine. Citing anything by this individual is ridiculous. May as well cite anything Sean Hannity spouts, albeit he has more intelligence than Paxton.
BTW years ago (circa late 70's) spent some time in Sydney and Hobart on business for my employer Philippine mining operation. Timing was bad on my part - most everyone from telephone to airways to ground transport seemed to be on strike. It seemed many were sympathy strikers unrelated to the ones actually on strike - appeared awfully close to third worldly at the time - has that changed? In addition, racism was rampant - overly and overtly in Hobart. Seems America is headed that direction once more thanks to Trumpism.


----------



## Johnny b

@*lmh44*

Furthermore, looking at hyperlinks in the article used for reference, I found issues that challenge the credibility of any analyst.



> content deleted by Administrator


That third link is a doozie.
It's a link to Navid Keshavarz-Nia and an affidavit he wrote.
An affidavit associated with Sidney Powell.
https://www.documentcloud.org/docum...eshavarz-nia-sidney-powell-michigan-affidavit

Here's a fact check on Keshavarz-Nia and his claims:

https://www.osetinstitute.org/research/2020/08/12/keshavarz-affidavit-analysis
Aside from all the BS exposed, there is this:


> Content deleted.


Good grief, that really stands out.
IMO, for any analyst, this should have been a show stopper.
And yet, there it is, as an authoritative source without challenge in your article.

A lot has happened since you wrote that article. Much shown to be lies generated by those trying to overthrow an election.

When ever you wrote the article is irrelevant.
The dates of your sources are important.
And many seem shortly after the vote count, before much was learned of the collusion about to happen in the extreme far right


----------



## Johnny b

Wino said:


> ......................... Seems America is headed that direction once more thanks to Trumpism.


Sadly, it takes a mass murder to get the attention of the press as to how prevelant racism exists in Trump extremism.


----------



## Wino

Ken Paxton:

https://apnews.com/article/2022-mid...ton-congress-a1a3f06efe608b777c7be0b1d82b4612

Typical Texas politician - including the shyster Cornyn.


----------



## SeanLaurence

When one first encounters Ken Paxton's case, one should immediately note that the states that he cites for having widespread election fraud all happen to be the ones that have the closest results. All three would have to be overturned to give Trump the win. So it should be immediately be obvious without knowing anything else that his assertions were baseless. Any competent lawyer would also know that he did not have standing to bring a case involving another state, so that implies that the whole exercise is a stunt performed for propaganda purposes. 
He should be disbarred for abusing the court in this manner.

I am still upset at the SCOTUS ruling in Bush v Gore, given that the margin in the particular count was too close to call, while as a nation, Gore had a sizeable margin. The electoral college should be abolished for the good of democracy in America.


----------



## Cookiegal

lmh44 has requested their account be deleted and I have complied with that request. Consequently, I've also deleted any quotes from their article that was attached which I also deleted. There's no point in further commenting on their posts as they will not be responding. I didn't see any need to delete those posts. 

Lastly, I request that no comments be made about them leaving. Please just let the thread carry on from where it left off before they ever posted. Thanks for understanding.


----------



## Wino

No comment. Moving on.


----------



## Johnny b

It was mentioned that Trump's control of the Judiciary would be the factor for his being re-elected.
It's a factor, but control starts with legislators with support by the judiciary.

This just popped up in the NY Times:

* How Trump's 2020 Election Lies Have Gripped State Legislatures *
https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2022/05/22/us/politics/state-legislators-election-denial.html

Too much to copy and paste, but this stands out:



> The Times's analysis exposes how deeply rooted lies and misinformation about former President Donald J. Trump's defeat have become in state legislatures, which play an integral role in U.S. democracy.
> 
> 357 lawmakers took concrete steps to *discredit or overturn the results of the 2020 presidential election*. That amounts to *44 percent* of the Republican lawmakers in those states.


This is obviously where great fraud occurred in the 2020 election and will be even a greater influence in future elections.

Trumpism + 'MAGA' are anti-democratic and un-American.
And it's done by convincing the citizenry that fascism is a necessary way of life and electing politicians to carry out false promises.


----------



## Johnny b

* DC attorney general sues Mark Zuckerberg, claims CEO was 'personally involved' in privacy failures *

https://finance.yahoo.com/news/karl-racine-sues-meta-ceo-mark-zuckerberg-142552662.html

In support of Trump.



> The attorney general for Washington, D.C. filed a lawsuit against Meta (FB) CEO Mark Zuckerberg on Monday, accusing him of being personally responsible for the massive Cambridge Analytica data breach.
> 
> In the suit, Attorney General Karl Racine, alleges that Zuckerberg's failure to oversee consumers' data privacy led to the Cambridge Analytica scandal, in which a political consulting firm used millions of Facebook users' data, without their knowledge, in an attempt to sway the 2016 election in favor of Donald Trump.


Time and time again, major fraud favored Trump.


----------



## freedave

Deleted member 1032797 said:


> Hello Everyone,
> 
> First time here and, worse, I'm not a citizen of the US of A. Strictly speaking, then, I have no real reason to intrude into a conversation, no matter how interesting, between Republicans and Democrats. As someone who is interested in the subject, however, I cannot help but notice that this appears to be an echo chamber of sorts, with the more vociferous dominating. Where are the Republican arguments to balance those of the Democrat-leaning and -supporting voices here?
> 
> I find Wino's signature quotations (and I am not singling her/him out in regard to the comments above) interesting. While H.L. Mencken's is arguably justifiable (I confess to sitting on the fence in regard to that one, it being dependent on the definition of the term "public"), I would hesitate to use Dilbert's, no matter how astute a cartoon character may appear to be. Would Ellison's observation, in the context of this thread and in light of the Durham investigation, that "You are not entitled to your opinion. You are entitled to your informed opinion. No one is entitled to be ignorant." may be more apt? May one mention Clinesmith and Sussmann in polite society?
> 
> As for a previous comment in this thread about conspiracy theories, well, a law undergraduate at Yale, Christopher Reid Cooper, had a friend and room-mate, John Rice, while there. John's sister, Susan, in time became President Obama's National Security Adviser and Cooper (I almost wrote "naturally") a judge, appointed to the federal bench by Mr Obama in 2014 - despite his tender years, as Bill Shakespeare almost said. And how does any of this matter? Well, Christopher Cooper is presiding over the Sussmann's trial.
> 
> I wrote a paper in early January 2021, before President-Elect Biden assumed office, in which I said that the faith of a very significant portion of the American public in the country's electoral system had been badly damaged because of perceptions of abuse. That those perceptions exist, whether correct or otherwise, is irrefutable. Given those perceptions, therefore, should Cooper recuse himself or is he ethically-justified in adjudicating the Sussmann trial?
> 
> The point of this missive is to demonstrate that the people who are major cogs in the "System" do not help themselves in situations such as this one and add to the perceptions of its abuse and cries of conspiracy, the same cries that the Democrat-leaning members of this thread hold in high contempt
> 
> As I said at the outset, I am not a US citizen, and could be justifiably told to go away and procreate. I would like to read, however, the replies of the Democrat-supporters to these observations.
> 
> Thanks in advance. documentary


Watch the *2000 Mules documentary.*


----------



## Johnny b

freedave said:


> Watch the *2000 Mules documentary.*


It was easier to check out the validity of that documentary:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2000_Mules



> According to the Associated Press, the film relies on "faulty assumptions, anonymous accounts and improper analysis of cellphone location data" provided by True the Vote, a conservative vote-monitoring organization.[6] National Public Radio (NPR) found that True the Vote "made multiple misleading or false claims about its [own] work".[7] AP reported that the film's assertion that True the Vote identified 1,155 paid mules in Philadelphia alone was false. The film presented a single anonymous witness who said she saw people picking up what she "assumed" to be payments for ballot collection in Arizona; no evidence of payments was presented in any of the other four states.[6] According to Philip Bump, the film presents no evidence that ballots were collected from a nonprofit to be deposited in drop boxes


freedave, you really need to check out the validity of your sources before you go believing falsehoods.
That 'documentary' was obviously a waste of time.


----------



## SeanLaurence

freedave said:


> Watch the *2000 Mules documentary.*


No Dave, I am sorry I can't do that.
https://www.npr.org/2022/05/17/1098...are-so-accurate-it-solved-a-murder-thats-fals

Nor will I be watching "Triumph of the Will" or "Birth of a Nation"


----------



## freedave

Johnny b said:


> It was easier to check out the validity of that documentary:
> 
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2000_Mules
> 
> freedave, you really need to check out the validity of your sources before you go believing falsehoods.
> That 'documentary' was obviously a waste of time.


T


Johnny b said:


> It was easier to check out the validity of that documentary:
> 
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2000_Mules
> 
> freedave, you really need to check out the validity of your sources before you go believing falsehoods.
> That 'documentary' was obviously a waste of time.


There is no point in discussing this with you . . .


----------



## Johnny b

I'd rather watch 'Two mules for sister sara'


----------



## Johnny b

freedave said:


> T
> 
> There is no point in discussing this with you . . .


You have a point?

What is it?


----------



## freedave

SeanLaurence said:


> No Dave, I am sorry I can't do that.
> https://www.npr.org/2022/05/17/1098...are-so-accurate-it-solved-a-murder-thats-fals
> 
> Nor will I be watching "Triumph of the Will" or "Birth of a Nation"


Of course . . .


----------



## Johnny b

SeanLaurence said:


> No Dave, I am sorry I can't do that.
> https://www.npr.org/2022/05/17/1098...are-so-accurate-it-solved-a-murder-thats-fals
> 
> ................


Interesting.
Just beat a horse to death with old misinformation and make a 'movie' at the same time.
Trumpism. It's what they do.


----------



## freedave

Johnny b said:


> You have a point?
> 
> What is it?


I have many points, but no point to discuss with you. I only wanted to post the video . . .


----------



## Johnny b

freedave said:


> I have many points, but no point to discuss with you. I only wanted to post the video . . .


Your only point was to post a video?
Why that particular video?
What did it mean to you?


----------



## freedave

Yes, my only point was to post that video.

I will not respond further, except if you wish to reply to me with ONE verifiable fact indicating that the video is false, I will look into it . . .


----------



## Johnny b

freedave said:


> Yes, my only point was to post that video.
> 
> I will not respond further, except if you wish to reply to me with ONE verifiable fact indicating that the video is false, I will look into it . . .


Already done, freedave.
Both Sean and I gave you reasons.

You seem to have a habit of using denial as a tool for rebuttal.

If you don't wish to respond, in light of what Sean and I posted, it's rather obvious can't successfully defend the validity of that 'documentary'.

Or are you just trolling?


----------



## freedave

Johnny b said:


> Already done, freedave.
> Both Sean and I gave you reasons.
> 
> You seem to have a habit of using denial as a tool for rebuttal.
> 
> If you don't wish to respond, in light of what Sean and I posted, it's rather obvious can't successfully defend the validity of that 'documentary'.
> 
> Or are you just trolling?


I discontinue communications with people who are critical or accusative. Goodbye.


----------



## Johnny b

freedave said:


> I discontinue communications with people who are critical or accusative. Goodbye.


I expected something like that.

Exit without explanation.
Says a lot, freedave.


----------



## SeanLaurence

freedave said:


> Of course . . .


What does that mean? My point is that I don't give credibility to movies that promote faciest ideals. Someone elsewhere suggested that I watch 2000 mules, And just as I don't head down to my local cinima without checking the movie reviews, I also don't blindly embark on watching movies that strangers link to on the internet.

You will notice that John & I both linked to written sources. It is easier to have a good faith discussion with such works as you can cite small passages or copy and Google key phrases. You can skim such works much more easily than a video - many of which are filled with puffery.

So you linked to the video... Why? To let it speak for you to convince others of the position that you and its producers believe? Or are you asking in good faith if the ideas in the video are to be belived?

EIther way, John and I have both cited articles clearly stating that "2000 Mules" is conservative propaganda that contains misinformation. So you can either thank us for letting you know that, or you can dig for other evidence that you and the movie are indeed correct.
Running away shows the same lack of character that we have seen many times before when individuals are faced with an argument they can't win.


----------



## Johnny b

Getting back to reality and issues with fraud in elections, Michigan takes center stage.
But it's not about Trump and the 2020 Presidential election, it's about State Politicians ( Republicans ) in Michigan's State elections of this year, 2022.

Fraudulent signatures on nominating petitions. Massive fraud.....on GOP petitions.

* How Trump's Michigan 'giant scams' claims actually proved true - sort of *
https://www.msnbc.com/opinion/msnbc...aud-claims-actually-proved-true-sort-n1295741

* 5 GOP candidates in Michigan ineligible after fraud, election office says  *
https://www.washingtonpost.com/poli...governor-fraudulent-signatures-craig-johnson/

* Two top Republicans in the Michigan governor's race face disqualification over forged petitions, officials say. *
https://www.nytimes.com/2022/05/25/us/politics/disqualified-michigan-governors-craig-johnson.html

Trump was correct.....there is fraud.... Shocking, just shocking I tell you


----------



## Johnny b

For some reason, Michael Sussman's name was posted by an analyst and then referred to in a post by a denialist.
It's nothing to do with the 2020 election but concerns the 2016 election.

So here is the final result:

* Clinton campaign lawyer Michael Sussmann acquitted of lying to the FBI *
https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/do...sussmann-acquitted-charge-lying-fbi-rcna31262

........................

Despite being acquitted, Fox News claims being acquitted is evidence of Clinton campaign plot.
https://www.foxnews.com/politics/de...inton-campaign-plotted-to-tie-trump-to-russia

Do we really need an analyst to translate?


----------



## Wino

I agree with the Sussmann jury foreperson - "We've got better things to pursue" than this political crap show. IMO there is no doubt there was collusion and DJT was the preferred candidate for Putin. This Durham special prosecutor is a nothing burger and has been from the gitgo.


----------



## Johnny b

A Democrat in Arizona has been charged with ballot harvesting.
This was made illegal in Arizona in 2016.

* Arizona woman admits guilt in ballot collection scheme *
https://news.yahoo.com/records-show-coordinated-arizona-ballot-185435492.html



> Guillermina Fuentes, 66, could get probation for running what Arizona attorney general's office investigators said was a sophisticated operation using her status as a well-known Democratic operative in the border city of San Luis to persuade voters to let her gather and in some cases fill out their ballots.
> 
> Prosecutors were apparently unable to prove the most serious charges, dropping three felony counts alleging that Fuentes filled out one voter's ballot and forged signatures on some of the four ballots she illegally returned for people who were not family members.


----------



## SeanLaurence

Johnny b said:


> A Democrat in Arizona has been charged with ballot harvesting.
> This was made illegal in Arizona in 2016.
> * Arizona woman admits guilt in ballot collection scheme *
> https://news.yahoo.com/records-show-coordinated-arizona-ballot-185435492.html


So... 4 ballots.....
And it was fine to do this prior to 2016.
Why would the AG call it a "sophisticated operation"? 4 votes 
Was she just helping some seniours vote? 
3 of the ballots were filled out already, I assume that they had just not been signed. 
So maybe one ballot was filled out in a manner contraryto the voter's wishes? maybe?

Better give the election to Trump then /s


----------



## Johnny b

SeanLaurence said:


> ..................
> 
> Better give the election to Trump then /s


It happened....imo, better to confront an issue like this and it's apparent insignificance in the vote count, than have to explain after it's exaggerated.

She owned it, and importantly, the prosecution was unable to prove forgery.

It is a law and being a retired politician, she would have known what she was doing was illegal.

As far as major fraud goes, this quote in the article says it all:


> But there's no sign her illegal ballot collection went beyond the small-town politics Fuentes was involved in.


----------



## Johnny b

More evidence of attempted election fraud by the Trump camp:

* Fake Trump electors in Ga. told to shroud plans in 'secrecy,' email shows  *
https://www.washingtonpost.com/poli...ors-ga-told-shroud-plans-secrecy-email-shows/



> A staffer for Donald Trump's presidential campaign instructed Republicans planning to cast electoral college votes for Trump in Georgia despite Joe Biden's victory to operate in "complete secrecy," an email obtained by The Washington Post shows.


* Email reveals Trump campaign told fake electors in Georgia to use 'complete secrecy'  *

https://www.cnn.com/2022/06/06/politics/georgia-trump-investigation-fake-electors-email/index.html



> The Trump campaign directed a group of Georgia Republicans to meet in secret and obscure their objectives in an email obtained by federal prosecutors as part of their recent investigation into Donald Trump's efforts to overturn the election in several swing states.
> The email is part of the intensifying Justice Department investigation focused on the Trump campaign's interactions with so-called alternate Republican electors in states Trump lost and whether a scheme to organize them could be charged as a crime.


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## Wino

Looking forward to Thursday with hopes they don't screw this up. Trump dead heads won't be moved, but maybe enough independents and real republicans will comprehend just how dangerous DJT/minions are to our republic.


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## Johnny b

* January 6 Vice Chair Cheney said Trump had a 'seven-part plan' to overturn the election. Here's what she meant *
https://www.cnn.com/2022/06/09/politics/jan-6-hearing-cheney-trump-overturn-election-plan/index.html



> President Trump engaged in a massive effort to spread false and fraudulent information to the American public claiming the 2020 election was stolen from him.
> President Trump corruptly planned to replace the Acting Attorney General, so that the Department of Justice would support his fake election claims.
> President Trump corruptly pressured Vice President Pence to refuse to count certified electoral votes in violation of the US Constitution and the law.
> President Trump corruptly pressured state election officials, and state legislators, to change election results.
> President Trump's legal team and other Trump associates instructed Republicans in multiple states to create false electoral slates and transmit those slates to Congress and the National Archives.
> President Trump summoned and assembled a violent mob in Washington and directed them to march on the US Capitol.
> As the violence was underway, President Trump ignored multiple pleas for assistance and failed to take immediate action to stop the violence and instruct his supporters to leave the Capitol.


Nothing new to anyone reading this forum.
What is amazing is that Trump hasn't been imprisoned for those crimes.


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## Wino

Trump should be arrested, tried, and if convicted, hung and buried next to Osama in some unknown ocean location. No doubt he is a traitor IMO - the worst this nation has ever witnessed.


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## Johnny b

* Judge says Fox News's parent company must face Dominion's defamation lawsuit because of Rupert Murdoch's alleged role in pushing election lies *
https://news.yahoo.com/judge-says-fox-newss-parent-000742965.html



> A Delaware judge on Tuesday said that Fox News's parent company must face a defamation lawsuit from Dominion Voting Systems, ruling that the election company's allegations that Rupert and Lachlan Murdoch intentionally pushed election lies had enough merit to move the case forward.


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## Johnny b

Interesting headline.
Anyone surprised?

* Rudy Giuliani admitted 'we just don't have the evidence' of voter fraud, according to testimony *
https://www.businessinsider.com/rud...-rusty-bowers-testimony-jan6-committee-2022-6


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## Johnny b

* Trump supporters befuddled when confronted by facts from Jan. 6 hearings *
https://news.yahoo.com/trump-supporters-befuddled-confronted-facts-075345658.html


> Attendees were shown testimonies from witnesses, but many were unable to accept the information being presented to them.


It may look funny/silly, but it is a serious mental condition that's destructive to the health of a free society.


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## Johnny b

* Angry Trump Again Demands The Impossible From Jan. 6 Panel After Riveting Hearing *
https://news.yahoo.com/angry-trump-again-demands-impossible-015138572.html



> Former President Donald Trump's reaction Thursday to another powerful day of testimony before the House select committee investigating the U.S. Capitol riot was to again demand the impossible: evidence of a rigged presidential election.














> In a separate post Thursday, Trump asked: "What about the massive ballot stuffing shown ... by the highly respected and credible Patriots of Truth (2000 Mules)." He was referring to a discredited "documentary," which elicited a derisive laugh from the former attorney general during Barr's testimony.


2000 Mules......I laughed, too.


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## Wino

There's nothing stopping the orange man from bringing forth his proof and sitting for the J6 panel, under oath to testify. He should bring along all his sycophants he has convinced not to testify and that have refused to show even after being subpoenaed. He won't, can't do this as he has nothing he can prove. Just keeps on puking trash, lies and made up stories.


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## Johnny b

Wino said:


> There's nothing stopping the orange man from bringing forth his proof and sitting for the J6 panel, under oath to testify. He should bring along all his sycophants he has convinced not to testify and that have refused to show even after being subpoenaed. He won't, can't do this as he has nothing he can prove. Just keeps on puking trash, lies and made up stories.


Trump only has lies to promote.
And he convinces the mindless effectively.

Making America great again won't happen with insanity and corruption at the helm.
And yet, that's what the MAGA movement represents.


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