# Solved: How to Scan Book, Save as Document?



## Sandycane (Jul 28, 2008)

Hi!

I did some searching and found this information: http://www.wikihow.com/Scan-a-Book-With-a-Digital-Camera

but, I don't understand what the heck they are talking about.

I have acquired a copy of a precious book, printed in 1937, author deceased. I want to scan it/ copy it somehow to my computer and save it as a 'book' or document. pdf? Adobe? ...like those I come across on the internet (Scribd).

I have a digital camera and can take the pictures but, how do I save them and put them together as a document and not a bunch of pictures?

Thanks for the help.


----------



## lister (Aug 10, 2004)

You need OCR software to convert the pictures to editable text.
eg: http://www.abbyy.com/

Or did you mean you wanted the images combined into a pdf (but still images)?


----------



## Sandycane (Jul 28, 2008)

That looks like what I need!

Do I want the 'Fine Reader' or the 'Transformer' or the 'Scan to Office'?
What is the difference between the $500 Pro edition and the $49 Express Edition - besides the price? 

Will this also convert a graph, chart or table?


----------



## lister (Aug 10, 2004)

I don't use it, so don't know. I suggest looking through the site and seeing which features suite you best.


----------



## mrss (Jun 13, 2007)

Sandycane said:


> I have a digital camera and can take the pictures but, how do I save them and put them together as a document and not a bunch of pictures?


It's explained in the wiki article. You save each picture as part of a PDF document. You need the right software though. There's lots of free software converters that can convert a single page to a PDF document, but you also need the ability to assemble many pages into a book, make chapters, etc. Can't help you with any recommendations on freebies. I use store software (Adobe Acrobat) and it's expensive.

The article also talks about shrinking the pictures. Considering that a typical image size from a modern digicam is 2MB, a 200 page book is still only 400MB, which fits on a CD. maybe not so important.

You might take a couple of pictures and ask yourself if the results are worth the work.

Edit: I assumed you wanted the original representation rather than OCR text.

I had a free copy of Abby circa 2000 that came with my scanner. It took me a couple of hours to scan one page out of a newsletter and convert it to text for a website back then. Most of that was correcting errors. I suppose a $200 program is better than the freebie I had back then.


----------



## Sandycane (Jul 28, 2008)

lister said:


> I don't use it, so don't know. I suggest looking through the site and seeing which features suite you best.


I'm sorry but, I've got to ask you...if you don't use it, why on earth would you recommend it to someone who knows absolutely nothing about it?


----------



## Sandycane (Jul 28, 2008)

Thanks mrss.
This book is definitely worth it - it is borrowed and I may never see it again.

I'm going to try the 'free' trial version of Abbyy. 
This is a completely new area for me ('ocr') so, please excuse my density.


----------



## lister (Aug 10, 2004)

I do use Finereader, but by no means on a frequent basic and only for basic OCR.

However I did used to OCR a lot a few years back, and then it was a toss up between Omnipage and Finereader - but Omnipage started getting much worse while Finereader kept producing a consistently good product.

I also did a little online 'research reviews on trusted sites.

Bear in mind that no OCR is perfect, so expect a certain amount of manual editing and correcting.


----------



## Noyb (May 25, 2005)

If you have M$ Office .. It can OCR scan to Word from a scanner ... or read a tiff Image file to Word.
Programs >> M$ Office >> M$ Office Tools >> Microsoft Office Document Imaging (or Scanning)
Abbyy not needed

I've used Abbyy and M$ Office .. There doesn't seem to be much difference.
Pictures/Charts in the "book" can be a problem using either.
This can require some Image editing to capture just the Picture ... 
Then reassemble the Word document, inserting the picture(s) manually.

I hope you only have a few pages, or they're just simple text pages.
If using a camera and M$ office .. shoot the highest resolution picture you can take .. and save it as a tiff Image file.
Do you have an Image editor program ??
some pre-editing of the page picture can be very helpful.


----------



## Noyb (May 25, 2005)

Another Way ... non OCR ..
Take the picture (or scan) ... Do some Image editing ... 
To crop the image to the page picture you want.
The freeware Irfanview can do this.
http://www.irfanview.com/

Then "print" the picture to a pdf file.
I'd use the freeware pdfCreator to Print to a pdf file.
http://sourceforge.net/projects/pdfcreator/

The problem here is that the pdf file will still be a large file size... 
but smaller than the Camera or Scanner picture file.


----------



## Sandycane (Jul 28, 2008)

Thanks for the explanation, lister...that makes sense.

Noyb,

I have MS Word, Open Office. I can open a picture with: MS office Picture Manager, Paint, Windows Picture and Fax Viewer or, Picture it! I also have Print Master.

Can any of these be used for what I want to do?

I took some pictures last night but, I need to rig up better lighting.
When I copy images from the camera to the computer, what program should I use to open them and save them as tiff? I was able to do that from Paint.
What is the process of converting them from tiff to a document and can I use any of the programs I already have?

Thanks for your help. 

The book is 350 pages.  here is a sample image:


----------



## Sandycane (Jul 28, 2008)

I was trying while you were posting your last reply. I'll try your suggestion.


----------



## Noyb (May 25, 2005)

??? I'm not familiar with Print Master ???

To OCR that page will require some proof reading and editing.
For example .. All OCRs have a problem reading 0,o or Os

For what you want .. I'd guess that you just need a readable picture or pdf file...
and some basic image editing is all that you need, before printing to a pdf file.

The question here .. do you just want to keep the original picture ..
or convert it to a pdf.

I'd use Irfanview to crop the picture, any resizing you need and save it to any Image format you want.

maybe something like this ...


----------



## Noyb (May 25, 2005)

350 pages  I hope you're not lazy 

Irfanview can batch process all 350 page image files... in one process.
I might suggest shooting on a black background to reduce the bleed thru

The advantage of converting the 350 page pictures to a pdf ...
They can be assembled into one 350 page pdf file.

It'll be a biggie


----------



## Sandycane (Jul 28, 2008)

Noyb said:


> 350 pages  I hope you're not lazy
> 
> Irfanview can batch process all 350 page image files... in one process.
> I might suggest shooting on a black background to reduce the bleed thru
> ...


 I know! ...don't go on any long trips, I'm going to need your help. 

Time is what has me worried...it has to go back in two weeks. 

The conversion you posted is exactly what I want...with all 350 pages in one contunuous document. 
I'll work on it today and see how it goes.


----------



## Sandycane (Jul 28, 2008)

Ha! I just figured out your username. Good one!


----------



## Sandycane (Jul 28, 2008)

Okay, I'm ready...I've got two cameras and 4 sets of batteries.
I'm going to look at those programs you suggested and get started.


----------



## Noyb (May 25, 2005)

SHHHH ... Don't tell anyone ... since it's None of their Business.

Looks like you have a 3 step process here.
1) Get the best, Highest resolution, pictures you can and while you have the book

2) I'd suggest getting Irfanview ... There'll be a learning process here.
I've always replaced anything M$ provides .. such as Image n Fax Viewer or Photo Gallery ..
with Irfanview as my system default Image Viewer and Editor... starting back in my Windows 98 days
Irfanview is Very popular here at TSG ... You'll have no problem getting help with it.
http://2noyb.home.comcast.net/

3) Get pdfCreator .. There'll be another learning process here.

You might want to make a backup of the original 350 page image files... in case of a goof in this process.

Keep us informed on your progress.


----------



## Noyb (May 25, 2005)

Just another wild thought (I'm on my 3rd cup of morning coffee) ... and a very long shot ...
Have you checked Google books to see if this has been done already ???
http://books.google.com/bkshp?hl=en&tab=wp


----------



## Sandycane (Jul 28, 2008)

Question with the Irfanview...I just installed it and there was an option to 'associate' it with other applications ('optional'). I clicked 'all' and then durring the install process it asked 'ARE YOU SURE?' ...I clicked 'no'.  Should I have selected 'all'?

Irfanview has got to work (from Austria)...the original book was written in Copenhagen. 

I'm on to the pdf program instal...


----------



## Sandycane (Jul 28, 2008)

Noyb said:


> Just another wild thought (I'm on my 3rd cup of morning coffee) ... and a very long shot ...
> Have you checked Google books to see if this has been done already ???
> http://books.google.com/bkshp?hl=en&tab=wp


Yes. I've been searching for this book for 5 months. I contacted to original publisher and new and used book stores in Europe. This book is a true GEM and nearly every scientific study on fluoride makes reference to it but, the actual book is impossible to find - nearly.  It is no where on the internet...yet.


----------



## Sandycane (Jul 28, 2008)

ps, I'm playing hookey from work today to get this done (don't tell)...so you keep drinking that coffee!!!


----------



## Noyb (May 25, 2005)

Sandycane said:


> Should I have selected 'all'?


I check "Images Only"
No problem .. this is easily undone .. by check None.


----------



## Noyb (May 25, 2005)

Sandycane said:


> ...so you keep drinking that coffee!!!


All Coffeed up now ... Time to go play with my John Deer
I'll be outa the "office" for a while


----------



## Knotbored (Jun 5, 2004)

http://www.gutenberg.org/wiki/Main_Page

Check this site for a potential that someone has already scanned and posted the book, and do post it to that site if not, when you are done. That free site is extremely interesting for viewing antique books online.


----------



## Sandycane (Jul 28, 2008)

Noyb said:


> All Coffeed up now ... Time to go play with my John Deer
> I'll be outa the "office" for a while


 Brrrrrr!
So far, we're just getting lots of rain here in TN.

I've been 'playing' too. I think I have a basic understanding of how the irfan works but, I also think I now have 4 or 5 or 6 copies of the same pictures on my computer.
I love the way irfan edits! I'm a little fuzzy on where to go from there and how to save them and where to.

While you're away, I'll finish photographing the book and get with you later on the next step.
Thank you Soooo much for your help.


----------



## Sandycane (Jul 28, 2008)

Knotbored said:


> http://www.gutenberg.org/wiki/Main_Page
> 
> Check this site for a potential that someone has already scanned and posted the book, and do post it to that site if not, when you are done. That free site is extremely interesting for viewing antique books online.


I think that was one source I checked before but, I checked it again:
*"Search on Titles > Results*

No record found. Please retry."

When I get through with this project, this book will be online everywhere! 

Here is what I have so far: I know this didn't come out exactly how I want it. Eventually, I'll get it! This is Fantastic!


----------



## Noyb (May 25, 2005)

Burrrrrr .. Now if I can get my fingers to work again.
Our 8 inches of rain was cold.

Irfanview will save the pics where ever you tell it to and what ever name you supply.
It is not a Browser/Organizer ... I'd suggest you Create your working Folders first.

I might suggest doing all the even pages to one folder named by page number ..
then the odd pages to another folder.

I'm thinking this may help the cropping because your camera will be set differently (take different pictures) for the even/odd pages.
Save the originals ... and always work on a copy.

Since this is going to be a huge project .. You may also want to organize by Chapters to Chapter folders...
and work in smaller chunks.

This make any sense ??


----------



## Sandycane (Jul 28, 2008)

Makes sense.:up:

Btw, it quit raining here:


----------



## Noyb (May 25, 2005)

irfanview is great, But there's a few things it can't do.
It's too bad you don't have Adobe Photoshop Elements to go with your Sony Cybershot.

I'm afraid it will be difficult to batch process this whole procedur and some manual editing might be needed.

This pdf book might be a little too large to publish on the internet.

It quit raining here also .. and sample pdf attached


----------



## Sandycane (Jul 28, 2008)

I can buy online and download Adobe Photoshop Elements ...

Would that be better than what I am doing now? Why?

I am getting ready to start shooting Chapter 3. Should I continue with what I'm doing or 'upgrade' to another method?

I noticed your pdf is b&w. Should I save my photo images as B&W when I edit? Do I need to resize the images?


----------



## Noyb (May 25, 2005)

Adobe Elements might make some processes easier ... and any manual editing that might be needed.
But you should not really need it here.
But a Sony without Elements is like Peanut butter without Jelly.

Continue on .. I converted to B/W in Irfanview before I made the pdf .. to keep the final file size down.

NO .. do not resize "yet" ... just get the best picture you can.
is 1280x960 the best picture your Cybershot can take ??


----------



## Noyb (May 25, 2005)

PS .. When you take a break .. I'd like for you to Email me a couple more pages.


----------



## Sandycane (Jul 28, 2008)

Noyb said:


> Adobe Elements might make some processes easier ... and any manual editing that might be needed.
> But you should not really need it here.
> But a Sony without Elements is like Peanut butter without Jelly.
> 
> ...


 Well then, I've just got to have jelly with my peanut butter!!! ...but, if I can do without for now, I'll wait on that.

I don't know about the 1280x960...what should it be and how do I change it?

I'm almost 1/3 through - finished chapter 9 on to Part II. 

How many pages do you want/ A whole chapter, perhaps?


----------



## Noyb (May 25, 2005)

What model Cybershot do you have ???
I thought a 539kb file was kinda small.
My Cybershot H5 takes about a 2mb picture @ 2272x1712 pixels

If the quality of the last pdf I uploaded is OK .. no need to change anything

3 or 4 pages will do ... If you think you can email a Chapter go for it ...


----------



## Sandycane (Jul 28, 2008)

I borrowed one from work that I'm using also- same as mine - both are DSC P71 3.2 mega pixels.
I sent you 6 pages of the intro.


----------



## Noyb (May 25, 2005)

3.2 mpixels answers my file size confusion.
How does this look ???
http://2noyb.home.comcast.net/Book.pdf

If you want .. send more pages.


----------



## Sandycane (Jul 28, 2008)

Noyb said:


> 3.2 mpixels answers my file size confusion.
> How does this look ???
> http://2noyb.home.comcast.net/Book.pdf
> 
> If you want .. send more pages.


Woo-hoo!

You can not imagine how thrilled I am to see this book on the internet!!

Imagine you want to study the Word of God (or some such thing) and there are only 10 printed books on earth and they are all privately owned and they are out of print... you get the idea....

The photographer could have done a better job but ... the more I did, the better they look. (I hope)
It's great to be able to see the texture of the 70-year-old paper, too!:up:

Let me tell you, this book is fragile, the paper is so brittle, I doubt the library will let it out again.

I am finished taking pictures, have them organized into chapter-folders, saved a copy of all to disk.
Ready for the next step, which is...what?

Can I open each folder with irfanview to edit? How do I save the edited pictures?

I'll send you some more but, I'm having too much fun to let you do too much! 

I'm going to look over the pictures now and I'll be back here tomorrow afternoon.

Thank You (where's the 'kissy' smile?) 

(I got a warning: had to remove 30 extra smilies)


----------



## Noyb (May 25, 2005)

Sandycane said:


> Can I open each folder with irfanview to edit? How do I save the edited pictures?


I batch processed all 6 pics at once.
This opened each pic .. edited it and saved the new pic in a new folder.
the pic was cropped .. rotated .. enhanced a little .. converted to gray scale and saved.

Get it setup .. press the start batch button ... and watch it fly thru the pics

This requires some experimenting with the numbers and process ... 
So work on a copy of the originals ... and save the processed pic to a new folder.
I probably could have done a better job at cropping if I would have worked separately on the even/odd pages.

I noticed your page numbers started with 1 .. probably should have been 001
You will need a numbering system that will sort itself properly ... I have another way to batch process the page/file renumbering.
After the batch process .. you may need to fix individual pics with a manual edit - replace

Are you sure you want to do this yourself .. or send then to me.
Why should you have all the fun ???


----------



## Noyb (May 25, 2005)

See what I mean by the file name sorting ???
http://2noyb.home.comcast.net/Book2.pdf


----------



## Noyb (May 25, 2005)

Double Wides are going to be a problem ???
I had to process these individually .. Using Photoshop ...
Precise rotating is easier in PS .. and these couldn't be batch processed.

Do you want these in a landscape (look at it sideways) ...
or a profile mode as linked to ... ??
http://2noyb.home.comcast.net/Book3.pdf


----------



## Sandycane (Jul 28, 2008)

I like the way they are in the link.

Looks like you'll be finished with the whole book before I finish reading the 'help' section for the individual programs!


----------



## Noyb (May 25, 2005)

I'm running into some small problems .. and the solution(s) may not be in "the book"
Being ... Some pages might need individual editing.

The next problem will be the pdfCreator .... I'm not sure it'll handle all 350 pages.
And this will probably be a construction nightmare.
We're up to 24 pages and a 2.29mb pdf file.
I'm thinking .. If this is in one pdf file .. It will be about 35mb .. can you put that on the web ??

Maybe splitting it into several smaller pdfs will help ??

For some display consistency .. I've edited the 2 wides .. so they're all 1100 pixels wide ..
http://2noyb.home.comcast.net/Book4.pdf

You sure picked a tough one to learn on.
I've done something similar before .. and I'm still scratching my head


----------



## Sandycane (Jul 28, 2008)

Noyb said:


> I'm running into some small problems .. and the solution(s) may not be in "the book"
> Being ... Some pages might need individual editing.
> 
> The next problem will be the pdfCreator .... I'm not sure it'll handle all 350 pages.
> ...


This looks better.
I don't know a 2.29mb from a 35mb so, I'll take your word on this subject. 
I know it took 38 minutes to copy all the photos to a disk.

Maybe, like you suggested, "we"  could split it into chapters or, 'Part I', 'Part II' and Part III" adding the preface, intro and table of contents to Part I and the Summaries and bibliography to Part III?



> You sure picked a tough one to learn on.
> I've done something similar before .. and I'm still scratching my head


'It' picked me! 

I just looked over all the pictures...I need to re-do about 50 of them,...a couple I forgot to move the light and the pages were bright orange, the black & white plates had a strange purple and green striping on them, and the others, the edge of my bathrobe sleeve got in the shot. 

I'll work on those when I get home and then I'll send you another batch.

Thank YOU!


----------



## Sandycane (Jul 28, 2008)

STOP THE PRESSES! 

Can_ we_ do_ this_: http://octavo.com/  http://www.rarebookroom.org/Control/tryhra/index.html

That's what I want!


----------



## Noyb (May 25, 2005)

HUMMMM ???? ...How much cost ???

After a quick look .. it doesn't look much different than doing it this way ...
http://picasaweb.google.com/1958ahs/Sandy?authkey=sZ68FNaAwI0#

I'm wondering how readable they will be .... 
and what the file size (download time) will be.

Looks like you still need the pictures first ... so back to the presses


----------



## Sandycane (Jul 28, 2008)

Whatever program they use, I'll bet it cost a fortune.
Between Picasa and what you've done so far, I like the first method better...I think. Let's stick with Plan A. 

On the previous page you mentioned there may be a problem with the Pdf converter... isn't that what you've been using to put the images all together in document form?


----------



## Noyb (May 25, 2005)

Sandycane said:


> On the previous page you mentioned there may be a problem with the Pdf converter... isn't that what you've been using to put the images all together in document form?


YES ... But 22 pages is sorta simple ... 350 will get a little messy ...

BTW .. Many print houses will want a pdf file .. to make a book.
That's what I was doing with this procedure previously.


----------



## Sandycane (Jul 28, 2008)

Oh, I see what you mean now.
If it took 38 minutes for the pictures to copy to a disk, will it take that long to open the pdf doc from a web site?

I LOVE my new avatar!

I'm going to clean up Chapter 1 and send it to you tonight.


----------



## mrss (Jun 13, 2007)

If going online, I assume the copyrights on the book have lapsed?


----------



## Noyb (May 25, 2005)

If you've donated to support TSG .. your Avatar can be ~30% bigger - but I'd need an original to work from.

Guessing the full pdf book will be about 35mb ... It may take someone on dial-up about a half hour to DL the full book.
The pdf book will be smaller than you pictures - but not as much as I'd like.
Since we're working from pictures .. and not text .. the pdf will be bigger - I don't know any way around this.
I've tried to cut the pdf file size down ..but I need to keep it readable .. tough decisions here.

You page numbering should be something like P1230 for page 123.
Then a figure 1 after page 123 (for example) can be P1231 .... Page 1 would be P0010 .. 
I can handle the renumbering/organizing .. But I need to know where fig 1 goes... etc ...
(I have more renaming software) 

pdfcreator will organize the pages by the "sorted" file name.

You said the author was deceased and the book is no longer in print.
I don't think we have a copyright problem here... but you might want to check at the library when you take the book back.
You also might want to ask the library if they would "host" your computer copy.
This will be too big to Email as an attachement.

In the meantime, I can host our work in one of my Comcast personal web pages, like I've been doing.
I had a hunch it was going to get big .. so I started using one of my pages ... It'll hold a gig of stuff.
This is the same as linking to a web site.


----------



## Sandycane (Jul 28, 2008)

I did a quick search on 'copyright laws' but, I'll worry about that after we get the project finished. It's not like I plan on selling the copies.

I'll rename my copies tonight to match yours. I'd like to be able to identify them beyond just page numbers, though. Can I name them: 'fi (fluoride intoxication) ch1 (chapter and number) p0090' ? 
The figure numbering system might not work since there may be more than one figure per page. Should I just eliminate the 'figure' numbers and stick with a page number? Although the figure pages aren't numbered in the book, they are accounted for; meaning, text page 1, text page 2, non-numbered page with figure, text page 4...and so on.

What do you suggest?
I don't want to spend too much time on renaming all the pictures (again).


----------



## Noyb (May 25, 2005)

Just press on .. We can figure out the sequence later.
Don't forget to get a picture of the cover... and maybe the back.

I'm working on something right now .. I'll be asking your opinion soon.


----------



## Sandycane (Jul 28, 2008)

Noyb said:


> Just press on .. We can figure out the sequence later.


 Sounds good to me. :up:


> Don't forget to get a picture of the cover... and maybe the back.


 I took a pic of the front (same as the back): standard red textbook material, nothing fancy or identifying about it.



> I'm working on something right now .. I'll be asking your opinion soon.


 Goody!

Can we get an effect like this:
http://www.ajph.org/cgi/reprint/28/9/1114.pdf


----------



## Noyb (May 25, 2005)

Sandycane said:


> Can we get an effect like this:
> http://www.ajph.org/cgi/reprint/28/9/1114.pdf


I Wish .. but sorry to say - NO
That link is a pdf file created from a text document ... like M$ word.
Notice that the text is selectable ... (Not unless you wanted to Re-Write the whole book)

We're creating a pdf from Pictures ... not Text.
This is why the file will be a large pdf file.

What I'm working on ... in an attempt to make it more readable ..
Is to crop the pics better .. to get more text and less page.
This will require that each page be edited individually.
We got all winter .. Right ???


----------



## Sandycane (Jul 28, 2008)

Noyb said:


> I Wish .. but sorry to say - NO
> That link is a pdf file created from a text document ... like M$ word.
> Notice that the text is selectable ... (Not unless you wanted to Re-Write the whole book)
> 
> ...


 ...the daffodils have buds already...but, I'm in no hurry just as long as the pictures are good before I have to return the book.

Since you have started on chapter 1 already, I'll take the even chapters and get busy editing.
How much border do we need around the text after cropping?


----------



## Noyb (May 25, 2005)

As compared to .... http://2noyb.home.comcast.net/Book4.pdf
Here's one edited a little better ... http://2noyb.home.comcast.net/Book5.pdf
A little more text .. less page.
Whatcha think ??

How much cropping is a tough question to answer ???
Better let me do it.

I'm a little confused on the pages .. There was some duplicates ..
Do I have all that you've sent so far ?? .. I left out some "non pages" 
Probably should start this out with a color cover .. you think ??
We can sort later .. or whenever.


----------



## Sandycane (Jul 28, 2008)

What's a 'non-page'?

The edited version looks fabulous!!

I wish I had used a better overhead lighting...the pages go from light to dark, top to bottom. But, that's okay with me. I'll know better next time. 
I'll check when I get home to see if you have all I've sent so far.

Should we move this project to private message or email or, do you think it might have educational value to other members? 



> Better let me do it.


 I think you're enjoying this as much as I am!


----------



## Noyb (May 25, 2005)

Educational ... Or maybe someone has other suggestions ?? .. for a while.
I gladly accept suggestions .. or additional proof reading - sometimes I miss things.

Sure beats shoveling Snow

Do you want ALL Pages .. I'd call this a non-page ..


----------



## Sandycane (Jul 28, 2008)

Noyb said:


> Educational ... Or maybe someone has other suggestions ?? .. for a while.
> I gladly accept suggestions .. or additional proof reading - sometimes I miss things.
> 
> Sure beats shoveling Snow
> ...


'Non-page'???? That has the library reference number AND the publisher information!!

I skipped the pages that were completely blank - that's why there may be some page numbers missing.


----------



## letchworth (Jul 2, 2005)

Sandycane said:


> Should we move this project to private message or email or, do you think it might have educational value to other members?


I'm enjoying the process and perhaps, as noyb suggests, a bit of kibitzing, if I may.

I did try Abbyy Fine Reader on your .jpg files- and a lot of unrecognized letters. I'm not sure if a scanner would have made it easier to OCR- however, as Sandycane suggests- nice to capture the age/texture of the paper which would have been lost in OCR. The OCR (Abbyy Fine Reader scanner) would have done a nice job of allowing someone to highlight and copy text for use in quotation purposes. (So, each method has its advantages. My experiences with Abbyy Fine Reader is that I routinely get 95-98%, or more, recognition. Not 100%, but very good- Again, each has its advantages and this project is looking nice).

Noyb, nice job of editing- and Sandycane- I'm pleased with how readable the project is; much better than I would have imagined.

The .pdf Thumbnail panel (navigation panel to the left) looks a lot like the view that Sandycane suggested; I think you will be happy with it. Also, if you wish to add bookmarks, Foxit Reader allows you to create bookmarks- giving them the titles you wish to use as another guide through the document. 
http://www.foxitsoftware.com/downloads/index.html

Noyb, You mention the possible problem of creating a book of 350 pages. Like you, I haven't done one that large- however, I do routinely do approximately 200 page documents as compilation of many smaller documents using a simple program called *PDF Split and Merge* (A free open source tool to split and merge pdf documents)
http://www.pdfsam.org/

I merge the several documents and then go in and add bookmarks (with the free version of Foxit) so I can find a document quickly using either thumbprints or bookmarks.

Keep up the good work
letchworth


----------



## Noyb (May 25, 2005)

*Great *.. I wasn't looking forward to assembling 350 pages.
Split/Merge sounds like a savior here ... Can work in parts .. Then join the parts.

I'm going to have to think about bookmarks .. and Foxit .. which I have...
but never fooled with Bookmarks.

*Don't leave town* .. I may holler for help.

*EDIT .. That was an easy Merge .. Many thanks again*


----------



## Sandycane (Jul 28, 2008)

Letchworth,
Thank you for the added info! Now I have 4 different programs to learn. 
I'm glad someone else noticed the nice paper texture; I think that is important for this book.

No need to tell you what I'll be doing from now on 'till Sunday night.:up:

Noyb,
I'll get busy emailing more pages.  I'll also try to see if I can get my picture copies to look like yours.
Are you using the irfanview to crop?


----------



## Noyb (May 25, 2005)

YES .. All done with Irfanview and pdfCreator
I used the Create Custom Selection for the cropping - to fix the image size.

Just played with M$ Office "MODI" to OCR three of your pages.
Higher resolution images would probably result in better text reading accuracy.
Not sure I would want to try this on the charts.
Attached is a first pass output .. unedited.


----------



## Sandycane (Jul 28, 2008)

OCR.doc - 

OCR.pdf -  ...but, not for this book. I want to keep the look and 'feel' of the original book.


----------



## Noyb (May 25, 2005)

The difference .. 
OCR will be a LOT more work .. easier reading ... and will be a smaller pdf file.
to keep the "feel" - will be pictures .. and a MUCH bigger pdf file

Letchworth's tip sure made adding your latest pics to the pdf REALLY easy.
http://2noyb.home.comcast.net/Book6.pdf


----------



## Sandycane (Jul 28, 2008)

I'm still working on editing with irfanview....

Do what you think is best and we'll compare.

What you have so far looks great, I think.:up:


----------



## Sandycane (Jul 28, 2008)

Help!

I edited and saved several pages with the irfanview. After they were cropped, I 'saved as' tif and went on to the next picture. I now have a folder with tif images in 'My Documents'.

I opened the Pdf converter, clicked on documents, then 'add'. I changed the default printer to Pdfconverter. I then opened the tif folder and clicked on one of the images to 'open'. When I do this, the image opens in Windows Picture and Fax Viewer.

What am I doing wrong?


----------



## Noyb (May 25, 2005)

pdfcreator wants a jpg ... 100% quality

Select n Drag the jpegs to the pdf creator Window .. You may have to choose "Wait".
Then select all >> choose combine >> then print.

The arrangement in the pdf will be as the file names are sorted.


----------



## Sandycane (Jul 28, 2008)

So, first of all, I need to rename/number all the images as you suggested earlier, right? Otherwise they won't be sorted in the pdf converter in the correct order, right?

I was able to make one pdf. I opened the tif saved image (open with) irfanviewer. Then I clicked 'print' to the pdfconverter.

All of the images I cropped in irfanview, I saved as 'tif'. Do I need to go back and change them to 'jpg'?


----------



## Noyb (May 25, 2005)

Sandycane said:


> Do I need to go back and change them to 'jpg'?


YES ... to drag them to the creator window ..
http://2noyb.home.comcast.net/Chptr2.pdf


----------



## Sandycane (Jul 28, 2008)

Looking good!

How'd you like my pdf??? I'm kinda proud of it. 

Question: When I number the pages, does the program read from left to right ot right to left?

Will it read 'fich1p0090' first or, 'fich2p0200? Will it read the numbers on the right first?

As you see, the first page of the book does not start with #1. There are some not numbered ('Fluoride Intoxication' page) and there are some numbered with Roman numerals. Page #1 starts the Introduction but, there are 9 actual pages before that.
How should I 'number' those before page #1??


----------



## Noyb (May 25, 2005)

They have to be named .. So they sort properly in the folder Window ..
in the order you want them in the pdf.

Warning .. I'm having trouble with pdfCreator.
Some jpgs won't take the first time.
Have to back .. re-crop them .. then reinsert.

Sometimes .. Have to do CRTL+ALT+DEL to kill pdfCreator ... before I can restart it.
See Ya in the Morning @ 1cupO:clock

See my naming convention ... left to right sorting order.


----------



## Sandycane (Jul 28, 2008)

Okay. So, the 'pre-numbered' pages will be 'a...' and 'b...' and then start page 1 with 'p001'.
What did you do with the 'fig' pages? Did you number them inplace of using the 'fig' number?
That will work since there is a list of illustrations.

I just sent you up to and including chapter 7. 
That should keep you busy 'till tomorrow. 

Nite.


----------



## Sandycane (Jul 28, 2008)

Stop the presses, again.

I just printed up the page I made and one of yours...very dark background behind the text. They are definitely readable but, it will use an enormous amount of ink to print these pages.

Back to the OCR drawing board


----------



## Noyb (May 25, 2005)

I didn't know where to put the figs .. or what to number them ???
Maybe lighten up in your printer settings ???

I hope you don't want to go the OCR route


----------



## Sandycane (Jul 28, 2008)

Noyb said:


> I didn't know where to put the figs .. or what to number them ???
> Maybe lighten up in your printer settings ???
> 
> I hope you don't want to go the OCR route


 Let me rename my images before I send anymore to you...I'll insert the 'figs' in the order they are in the book. For those you already have, you can probably use the 'Illistrations' page for reference.

Lets just finish what we've started for now and then you can teach me how to convert it into OCR. 

I tried to lighten it but, it also lightened the text and was difficult to read. This will be a good way to save the book in image form to maintain the feel of the original.
For copying/printing purposes we'll need to go with the OCR, I think.


----------



## Noyb (May 25, 2005)

I don't think you want to print this at home ... maybe a print house.

I have the figures .. figured out .. and all revised so far.
I cheated .. and read the index ... No work needed on your part.

I think I still need a color photo of the cover .. and maybe the back.

If you want to print this anywhere ... I need individual photos of the charts on two pages (By each Page)
Page 12 thru 25 ... as a separate page ... that I see so far.

All new ... keeping the pdfs to about 3>4mb each
http://2noyb.home.comcast.net/Ch01.pdf
http://2noyb.home.comcast.net/Ch02-06.pdf

Again .. Many thanks to Letchworth .. being able to assemble the parts (chapter pdfs) .. makes this really easy.


----------



## Sandycane (Jul 28, 2008)

Many thanks, to both of you!

I'll rephotograph the pages with the tables and send them to you.

This is coming along nicely - although, I still don't know how to do it myself.


----------



## Noyb (May 25, 2005)

That's OK ... I have the procedures ... Probably quicker for me to do it.
But you're getting really close in such a short time ... I'm impressed.
So far .. I haven't had to cheat and call up my Professional Photoshop.
As Tim the Tool man would say ... More Power !!!

I really don't think you want to OCR from the pictures you have.
Can you get a much higher resolution camera .. maybe better lighting ... and do it again ??
Even then .. I hope you know M$ word .. And can really type fast.

When I do this .. I get a free "Text to Speech" program ...
Have it read the OCR results ... While I proof read the original.
Lottsa editing involved.

I didn't size these pictures for a printed page .. But was trying to optimize for a pdf.


----------



## Sandycane (Jul 28, 2008)

I am learning A Lot! I'm sure it will all come together in my mind sooner or later. 

I just took the pictures of the two-page tables, one page at a time...sending them to you - zip!


----------



## Noyb (May 25, 2005)

I&#8217;m setting here with this humorous image in my mind..
Of you trying to take a drink from a Fire Hydrant .. 
And you&#8217;re getting more on you .. Than in you.
Don&#8217;t worry .. It&#8217;ll soak in soon.

The double wide charts might be a special situation.
If you want to print to paper .. You&#8217;ll want the individual pages &#8230; 
at the original resolution of one page .. and not zoomed out.
If you send a pdf to the printer &#8230; They&#8217;ll want these individual pages rotated .. and on adjacent pages.

I could also tell you how to merge these two pages into one &#8230; Using Irfanview ..
and resize for the pdf.
But what you have should work for the pdf as it is now.


----------



## letchworth (Jul 2, 2005)

Sandycane said:


> Stop the presses, again.
> 
> I just printed up the page I made and one of yours...very dark background behind the text. They are definitely readable but, it will use an enormous amount of ink to print these pages.
> 
> Back to the OCR drawing board


I am a bit taken aback- but then, how long will you have this book in your possession?

Somehow I had thought you were wanting to either have this on CD (like an e-book) or online availability for scholars & researchers. If it is something you want to print- oh, my! Yes, lots of ink.

As Noyb has stated the file sizes (& ink requirements) will vary as dramatically as the inverse of the amount of work you will need to do (more work, less ink and smaller files-- however, realize that the character of the finished work will much less like the borrowed volume- but more accessible for lookup & copying purposes). The typical page now is in the range of 100-150 K (I was surprised they are this small in the .pdf file Noyb is producing- but 2.5 meg for 25 pages in one of the files). An OCR rendered file will probably be 1/10 of that or slightly larger- ink will be typical 5% in the OCR version- 60-70% coverage (even 90% on some of the really dark pages) for the "antique-look".

The reason I asked how long you will have the book in your possession is that if you intend to pursue the OCR route- you really should use a scanner (perfect lighting, viewing angles, etc. for superior OCR rendering)- all of that to say it will vastly cut down on the amount of typing you will have to do.

You might consider posting what you currently are working on for scholarly/research purposes and see where that will lead. If copyrights permit, sell CDs to finance the OCR project- if the current energy for the project persists.

It looks very good- you are the one who has to decide if the additional work of the OCR process is something you want to tackle beyond what you have achieved so far.

I continue to enjoy reading your progress
letchworth


----------



## Noyb (May 25, 2005)

That's why I keep mentioning a Printhouse .. 
They charge by the page ... Not the gallons of Ink 
I'm wondering .. how much would Stapes, Officemax ..etc .. Charge to print these ??

Here I set with fancy printers, software .. And my wife still goes to Wal-Mart for her pictures.

http://www.blurb.com/


----------



## Sandycane (Jul 28, 2008)

I'm so confused. 

This reminds me of my first time snow-skiing...I took the lift and got off at the 'advanced' slope my mistake. I ended up in a snow bank and had to be pulled out. 

I started to watch the Blurb tutorial and saw that you have to use a Word doc. We're not doing that, are we?

Letchworth,
My dilemma is I don't know what my options are or, what techniques are involved in using them.

What I want to do is publish this information to the web in a format that can be copy/pasted from and/or printed by others. I don't want to sell it.
Ideally, it would be nice to have two versions: one, like we are working on, that has the actual image of the book and two, an easily readable, workable copy.

The book is due back to my library by the 14th so they can ship it back to the Cincinnati library by the 16th. It is non-renewable. I doubt I will ever see this book again. 

This is one place I'd like to place it: http://www.scribd.com/doc/10229864/Global-Risks-Report-2009
and here: http://www.archive.org/details/boronfluorideand031253mbp

Noyb,

I have my images renamed. Can you give a list of the next steps?
Do I open irfanview and edit from there, save as jpg? What is a good size to crop the pages to? I was using 1400x1860 yesterday for the sample I posted here.

I need a step by step explanation:
1) Do this....
2) Then do this....
3) etc....

You don't have to go into great detail on each step. If I get stuck, I'll ask for more info.


----------



## Sandycane (Jul 28, 2008)

ps:
I have installed the irfanview, PdfCreator and Pdfsam.
Do I need to use all of these? Which one does what and in what order?


----------



## Noyb (May 25, 2005)

For Now .. Just Irfanview.
Keep sending Pics ... 5 at a time per address will be OK.
You've changed the picture resolution .. This will add a procedure.
I just got very busy .. Will have to continue with instructions tomorrow.
I should be able to keep up with the Email shipments.


----------



## Sandycane (Jul 28, 2008)

The change in resolution must be a result of using camera #2. I haven't done anything to those pictures other than save them to the computer.
Didn't realize the two cameras had different settings.  Sorry.


----------



## Sandycane (Jul 28, 2008)

Noyb,
email glitch - I think my isp has some kind of anti-spam feature. I can't send too many at one time, this has happened before.
I'll try again in about an hour.


----------



## Sandycane (Jul 28, 2008)

You should have 13 chapters now.


----------



## Sandycane (Jul 28, 2008)

Woo-hoo! I figured it out - almost. 

As you can see from the attachment, I need help with the editing/cropping. I know how to do it but, I don't know what the dimensions should be.
In the 'custom crop' box, what should be the 'X' & 'Y' & pixel numbers 
How do I get them to all be the same size?

That Pdfsam IS a handy gadget.

Oops. I just tried to upload the pdf and it is 944KB - max allowed here is 200. How do I reduce the size?


----------



## Noyb (May 25, 2005)

Sandycane said:


> I need help with the editing/cropping. I know how to do it but, I don't know what the dimensions should be.


http://2noyb.home.comcast.net/Size.htm


----------



## Noyb (May 25, 2005)

However .. Let me say that Im cheating .. Go ahead and call me lazy if you want
Youve sent me two different sized pictures from the two cameras.
The first camera took pictures 1280 pixels wide.
The second camera took pictures 2048 pixels wide.

With Irfanview .. Im batch processing the editing steps 
Rotate left > Convert to Gray scale > Auto adjust Color >> (Saving in a bmp format) to a new working folder.
(Working/Editing) in an uncompressed bmp picture format)
Then I batch process the 2048 pixel wide pictures and resize them to 1280 pixels wide
(To match the pic size from the smaller camera)

Now .. All I have to do is reframe each picture manually with the Create Custom Crop tool.
The double wides (charts) will have to be edited manually .. Let me do these with Photoshop.

Ive been using the aspect ratio of 725x1150  for the single wides.
This is leaving all the pictures the same height  And many pages have a lot of blank page height.

I think the pdfs look better if all the Single wide (or double wide) pics are the same width.

How come TN isnt in the Super Bowl ???
Im going to throw a red flag, and demand a Referee review 
*Should we crop the pdf picture height to show only the printed material in the pdf's ?? *


----------



## Sandycane (Jul 28, 2008)

Excellent instructions!
That's what I was doing - without your numbers.

It is still not working for me though. 
Following your instructions, resizing to 725w and custom cropping to 725w, I am not cropping any of the page. There is a background border (about 1/8") on the top, right and bottom of page...and it's not centered.
How do I adjust this?


----------



## Sandycane (Jul 28, 2008)

> *Should we crop the pdf picture height to show only the printed material in the pdf's ?? …*


I think so.
Now, give me new cropping/resizing numbers, please.

When I master the individual picture process, I'll try it the 'lazy' way.


----------



## Noyb (May 25, 2005)

Apply the custom Crop window .. as described ... this can get a little tricky ..
RIGHT click in the crop window to position it as desired .. (Re-Frame it - Center it)

To Resize it (without changing the aspect Ratio) hold the CTRL key while you adjust each edge.

You can go back ... Right click - and re-center the crop window.
Warning .. Resizing it with the CTRL key .. will change the picture pixel width/height.
This is re-sampling the picture .. you only want to do this once.
Too many re-samples will turn the picture into a rumor.

725 wide .. 1150 tall ... is my final size for the pdfs (single wides)

Here's chapter 1 .. full pic height 
http://2noyb.home.comcast.net/Ch01.pdf

and with the height cropped
http://2noyb.home.comcast.net/Play.pdf

Is it me .. my ISP … or is TSG getting a little sluggish ??


----------



## Sandycane (Jul 28, 2008)

Sluggish here too.

Here's what I did while waiting for your reply...

Rotate left
manual crop with cursor to 'trim' (remove fingers, seam, etc...)
Crop Selection
Resize to 725w
Custom crop: 720x925
Crop Selection
Grayscale
Auto Adjust Colors
Save as: jpg/100% (saved to: My Document 'cropped' folder)

From 'cropped' folder:
open folder
Right click on image
'Create Pdf' (Pdf Creator opens)
'Save'
'Save'

Create new 'Pdf' folder in My Documents
Drag new pdf's into folder

Open Pdfsam
'Merge Extract'
'Add': (open 'pdf' folder) open and add each pdf
Destination: fipdf folder
'Run'

Open new pdf doc from pdf folder.

Voila! 

Any suggestions for 'shortcuts' in my process?
Is there a way to save the list of added pdf's in the Pdf Creator program?


----------



## Sandycane (Jul 28, 2008)

Finished pdf doc:


----------



## Sandycane (Jul 28, 2008)

I just looked at your 'Playpdf'. Don't like that effect. I like consistancy.


----------



## Sandycane (Jul 28, 2008)

Just found a shortcut:
If I don't need to 'save as jpg' - which I don't think I do - I can skip this step and click 'Print' and go directly to the Pdf Creator.


----------



## Noyb (May 25, 2005)

I don't like the Manual crop .. then the Custom crop.
This almost guarantees that a (resample) will be required .. and maybe two.
One resample will be needed on the bigger pics to make them the same size as the first set of smaller ones.
This means that all pics will have the same resolution as the original smaller set.

You should be able to do this all with the custom Crop.

You should be able to drag a set of pictures to pdfCreator ..
select all ... tell it to combine with a right click ..
wait til it processes all .. then print

Rebooted my Modem/Router .. It seems better now.


----------



## Noyb (May 25, 2005)

Special problem with pages 104 -105

I can merge the text from 104-104 to one page then add the chart on a 2nd page.
Or make one wider page to include the cart .. but with smaller text pages ???

I think I'd prefer page 1 and 2 … as compared to page 3 …

http://kcug.home.comcast.net/Try1.pdf

Whatcha think ???


----------



## Sandycane (Jul 28, 2008)

Well, as we previously discussed, neither is acceptable from a publishers stand point, right?
Since the chart has to be wider than the previous text page anyway, I prefer to keep p104-105 together in one shot/page...but, do what works for you.

I already exchanged all the 'double-wide's' for individual pages but, I think I'm going to use the double-wides in my pdf and not worry about a publishers problem at this point in time. I have both versions saved.

I don't know what you mean by a 'resample' being required.


----------



## Noyb (May 25, 2005)

Resampling ... 
To reduce the size of the image .. like cutting the total pixels in half...
The computer must determine what one pixel to replace the previous 2 pixels with.

It will "resample" the image trying to interpret what 1 pixel to replace 2 horizontal pixels with ..
Then what 1 pixel to replace 2 vertical pixels with.
The end result is 1/4th the total pixels and a best "mathematical" guess.
And the resolution is cut in half.

If you have to do this .. It's best to do it only once.
You know what happens to rumors after several generations ??


----------



## Noyb (May 25, 2005)

Do I see that you've been using the Irfanview Fine Rotation tool ??
This must be soaking in !!

Have you tried the Image > Create Panorama Image tool .... 
to assemble single pages to double wides ??


----------



## Sandycane (Jul 28, 2008)

Noyb said:


> Do I see that you've been using the Irfanview Fine Rotation tool ??
> This must be soaking in !!
> 
> Have you tried the Image > Create Panorama Image tool ....
> to assemble single pages to double wides ??


 Nope, haven't used either of those...but, I did see them and was curious about how they work. 

So far, I've been displaying the charts/tables as two seperate pages. I may go back and try the panorama feature later.


----------



## Sandycane (Jul 28, 2008)

Pdf Creator S T I N K S !! 

last night it kept giving me error boxes, went to their web site, uninsulated and attempted to reinstall 'download files corrupted'. Finally was able to get it to run through Soft82 link...still getting error boxes.

I just installed it on the office computer...on the 4th image - there's the error box and then it just quit altogether. Can't open from shortcut either.

Since I am now familiar, somewhat, with the process involved in putting this together, *is there a program (free or not) that will do everything these three programs (irfanview, PdfCreator, Pdfsam) do separately* 

There is nothing more frustrating than now knowing what to do and how to do it but, not having the proper/reliable software to do it with!


----------



## Noyb (May 25, 2005)

The problem is in the 4th Image ... And the way pdfCreator reacts to it.
Open the 4th Image in Irfanview .. Select the whole image and crop it .. again .. and re-save it.

If pdfCreator doesn't respond to the shortcut ...
Do a CRTL+ALT+ DEL .. applications ... and shut down the pdfCreator.
Then you can restart it from the Shortcut.
At this point .. You maybe be able to pick up where you left off.

You may have to fix and Image or two .. I think it's in the Irfanview cropping.


----------



## Sandycane (Jul 28, 2008)

I just finished cropping all the images...but now, for some strange reason, I can't copy anything to a disk. 
Here is what I get:


----------



## Sandycane (Jul 28, 2008)

Oh, and I opened Task Manager and there were THREE PdfCreator's running - eventhough I uninstalled it (several times).

I think I better start a new thread on the 'copy to disk' issue.


----------



## Noyb (May 25, 2005)

Can you copy to another folder ... Instead of Cropped ???
What is the properties of your C drive .. How much free space do you have ??


----------



## Sandycane (Jul 28, 2008)

Thanks for showing me how to 'save screen'. :up:

I uninstalled Record Now and then reinstalled it - don't ask why. 

This morning I was able to 'send to D:' but, when I click on 'copy to disk' I get a message that says Windows is busy (I'll show that screen in the next post)


----------



## Sandycane (Jul 28, 2008)

here's what happens when I try to copy to disk:


----------



## Noyb (May 25, 2005)

Are you trying to append a file to a previously written CD ??
Record Now has always served me good ???


----------



## Sandycane (Jul 28, 2008)

Noyb said:


> Are you trying to append a file to a previously written CD ??
> Record Now has always served me good ???


 I don't think so... I just right click, send to, D:
I never had a problem with this before.

This might have something to do with it: when I first put in the new blank CD, 'something', I think, was installed on my computer. I can't remember what it was. It had something to do with 'how' a file was copied, like - 'Copy using....'.

How long should it take to copy all these to a disk? Would it take 38 minutes as it did for the original images? Maybe it was still 'working' on the copy process 

I left it open and I'll check it when I get home.


----------



## Sandycane (Jul 28, 2008)

I'm still looking for a good program that will do all of and more than what the irfanview. PdfCreator and Pdfsam does.

I looked at Adobe  $1700 - $400 - choke.

Then I came across this 'suite': http://www.software995.com/

Has anyone used this? Is it safe?


----------



## Noyb (May 25, 2005)

Not Me.

You shouldn't be having any big problems with pdfcreator or pdfsam.
I think Sometimes .. the Irfanview custom crop tool doesn't work right ... 
and the picture must be re-cropped to prevent psdCreator from getting upset about it.

Working in smaller groups, like chapters .. This shouldn't be a big problem.
Once the picture, or pictures, is fixed ... The rest is easy.
Keep the smaller groups to make fixing something easier .. then assemble the final product, however you want it, with pdfasm

Adobe Elements 7 can be found under a hundred .. I think I've seen it on sale as low as $79.
For what you want to do .. Elements will do 99% for about 1/10 the price .. but it has a steep learning curve.
It can open a pdf and save as a pdf .. But this wont save you much work.

The only thing you'll gain is some special editing chores that Irfanview can't do.
Like this special repair of the cover .. Blemishes removed and the color fixed.


----------



## Noyb (May 25, 2005)

FYI .. I've reported the Custom Crop tool problem to the Irfanview support forum.
See the bug reports .. http://en.irfanview-forum.de/vb/index.php?langid=1
I think I have enough evidence that this is the problem now.


----------



## Sandycane (Jul 28, 2008)

I don't want to waste time with bugs.

I'm going to give software995 a try and see what happens.


----------



## letchworth (Jul 2, 2005)

Sandycane said:


> I'm still looking for a good program that will do all of and more than what the irfanview. PdfCreator and Pdfsam does.
> 
> I looked at Adobe  $1700 - $400 - choke.
> 
> ...


I have used it in the past- but abandoned it because I liked pdfCreator better (& if memory serves me- 995 seemed to "take over" some things I didn't want to let it do). I do know folks who like and use it- but it wasn't for me.

It will not replace all three programs: 
Irfanview is an image editor
pdfCreator transfers files from current format into .pdf format
pdfSam merges or splits .pdf files into page or chapter segments

Sometimes I have been asked, "PC or Mac?" or "What version of Linux?" (or other similar questions).
My general answer is, "What is your support system? and what are they using?" 
By that I mean, when you get into trouble,or try to venture off in a new area- who is going to help you? If you use the tools that your support people know well- they can readily help you- but are they willing to learn a brand new system in order to help you with something thy have never used?

You have accomplished so much- don't panic

For what it is worth
letchworth


----------



## Sandycane (Jul 28, 2008)

Software995 = No Good.

Besides all the extra steps involved in the conversion process, you have to wait 15 seconds for the 'sponsor ad' to load and pop up before it will convert your image.

Of course, you can remedy this by paying a fee...$30 for keys to cover all programs. It's not worth it. 
Back to the drawing board. 

Thank,s letchworth 

I am my own 'support system' and I am willing to learn whatever I need to get the job done right. 

I was happy with the three I've been using - except for the darn error-bug-box that won't let me convert to pdf!! And then I couldn't even reinstall it.

I'm stuck.
I have 365 pages edited and ready for pdf conversion and no way to do it.


----------



## letchworth (Jul 2, 2005)

Sandycane said:


> Software995 = No Good.
> 
> I'm stuck.
> I have 365 pages edited and ready for pdf conversion and no way to do it.


I'm a bit dumbfounded- not sure why pdfCreator is not working for you? What version of Windows are you using? XP? (I use it all the time- and many of the people I work with also use it all the time to produce hundreds upon hundreds of .pdf files- and have over several years. It maybe of little comfort to you, but in all the years I have used it, there was only one file that "just didn't work right"). But, like I said- that may be of little comfort.

I do know that many people on this forum use CutePDF- a very similar product to pdfCreator. But you mentioned at one point having three (3) instances of pdfCreator??? Are all three listed in the Add/Remove Programs list under Control Panel? I might be tempted to start there- Is it still listed there?

You are right, of course, in the final analysis we have to be our "own support system"- My point was that when tempted to panic, listen patiently to Noyb- he is certainly your support system in this project (and a good one to listen to in this arena). You are fortunate to have him in your corner and for him to have the time.

The two questions I bring up:
What version of Windows are you using (you may have stated this already- if so my apologies).
When you have uninstalled pdfCreator (& having a difficult time reinstalling it) does it still show up under Control Panel> pdfCreator? (& is there more than one instance listed?)

thanks for your response- and I hope this snag gets resolved easily
letchworth


----------



## Noyb (May 25, 2005)

Sandycane said:


> I'm stuck.I have 365 pages edited and ready for pdf conversion and no way to do it.


Send them to me ... or ....
You need to find which pictures cause the pdfCreator problems.
Then open the problem pic in Irfanview .. select the whole picture .. (CTRL+A) ... Crop and re-save.

When pdfCreator gets messed up ... (CTRL+ALT+DEL) .. and kill the task.
Then run pdfCreator again .. Using the fixed pic.
of the 175 pictures I did ... I think there was only 3-4 problem pictures.

It got a little simpler with pdfsam .. cause I was working in small batches at a time.


----------



## Sandycane (Jul 28, 2008)

Hi letchworth,
I really appreciate your help (and of course, Noyb).
I have XP and no, PdfCreator is not in the Add/Remove list. From Task Manager, I clicked 'end process' and got rid of them there.

I have two problems:
1) Can't get Pdf Creator to work properly (haven't tried it yet today. I was able to install it at work and it did just fine there)

2) I can't get anything to copy to my CD E: drive.

Right now, I think #2 is more urgent since I want to make sure I have a copy of all my work done so far saved on a disk...but, I'll keep working on the PdfCreator issue, too.

Here is what the screen looks like in the CD E: properties. When I try to copy, the message is that Windows is using it.


----------



## Sandycane (Jul 28, 2008)

Okay, I just tried to copy to disk again...
I opened the 'cropped' folder and right clicked on each individual chapter folder - send to CD E:. Went through all of them. Then opened the CD drive from My Computer. Clicked on Copy these files to Disk.
This is what I get...every time:

What the heck is Windows using in the CD drive
Should I start a new thread for this or post a Hijack This log


----------



## Noyb (May 25, 2005)

Try using your HP supplied - Sonic Record Now - program .. and not Windows.
Might be called Roxio in your computer.

choose "Data Disc" and drag your folders to the Window


----------



## Sandycane (Jul 28, 2008)

I did a search on Sonic Recorn Now and - nothing.

I checked Properties on the drives and this is what I get:

They all say 'device is working' but, for the location of the first one and the Sony CD, it says '0'.

What did I do  

Btw, when I click on the attached thumbnail, the picture is all blurry. Is that normal?


----------



## Sandycane (Jul 28, 2008)

Oh goody, here's something new:

(I can't read the thumbnail...it says Drive not accessible - Inaccurate location')


----------



## Noyb (May 25, 2005)

What's the model number of your HP ??
Not to scare you, But have you made the recovery DVDs Yet ???


----------



## Sandycane (Jul 28, 2008)

Noyb said:


> What's the model number of your HP ??
> Not to scare you, But have you made the recovery DVDs Yet ???



It's an Hp pavilion a200y...why? 

By 'recovery disks' do you mean the set of 6 I made when I first set up the computer? Yes...haven't touched them since I made them. 

This just keeps on getting crazy - 
I went through the troubleshooting questions and at the end was told, in other words, I have a problem they can't fix.

So, I put in two other disks, one a Sony Nero (whatever that is) and along with the program folders guess what else was there - the cropped folders.
Then I put in a disk from April 2005 with eBay pictures and guess what was there along with the eBay pictures - the cropped folders.

They seem to be jammed - somewhere - like they are waiting to be copied but, they won't.

How do I get rid of them without deleting the original cropped folders? 

here is what came up on the eBay disk:


----------



## Sandycane (Jul 28, 2008)

The previous thumbnail was from 'Picture it!'

I had to open and close the tray three times before the little 'autoplay' box with the flashlight opened. Then the next box that opens and asks what you want to do had these options:

Copy to folder
View slideshow
Print
Open/edit with Picture it!
Open to view using Windows Explorer
Take no action

I know Picture it! didn't used to be there and I don't think Windows Explorer was either. I always used something else...I think it was Picture/fax viewer.

Here is what the Windows Explorer option gave me:

"Cropped' files above 'waiting to be copied'
eBay pictures below 'currently on disk'


----------



## Noyb (May 25, 2005)

Sandycane said:


> It's an Hp pavilion a200y...why?


I thought maybe I could see what recording software HP supplied .. they usually tell ..
http://h10025.www1.hp.com/ewfrf/wc/prodinfoCategory?lc=en&dlc=en&cc=us&lang=en&product=345344

Looks like you could use more RAM
Don't see the recording software listed ... Should be able to find it under Sonic - maybe Roxio

Ever thought about getting a 2 or 4 gig USB Flash Drive ??


----------



## Sandycane (Jul 28, 2008)

I think I fixed it - whatever 'it' was.

From the eBay disk, I right clicked and deleted all the folders 'waiting to be copied' then emptied the trash bin.

Both eBay and Nero disk opened fine.

NOW, I want to copy the cropped folders to a disk...what is the best way to do this?
I have one folder called 'cropped' this folder contains individual folders with chapters. Should I do one chapter at a time?


----------



## Sandycane (Jul 28, 2008)

> Ever thought about getting a 2 or 4 gig USB Flash Drive ??


One problem at a time, please.


----------



## Sandycane (Jul 28, 2008)

Oh, it's Windows Office Picture Manager and Picture and Fax Viewer that I always use...(to open and view pictures)
and fyi, the folder with the original photos is: 486MB and 510,878,946 bytes.


----------



## Noyb (May 25, 2005)

You didn't say if you have the originals saved to CD .. That I remember ??
I've never used Windows to burn a CD ?? .. I've always had a HP computer.

You should also have the original camera pictures saved somewhere.
If you want to experiment .. use the first chapters .. 1 > 12.
I have copies from your Emails for a backup - safely saved in two other HDDs

I'd just burn the individual folders to a CD.
A CD of Originals ... and another CD of the Cropped folders
I think each group will fit on a 700mb CD

I'd make two CDs of group .. and check each one.
It's been said here at TSG many times ... 
any Data you don't care about ... is data you only have one copy of.


----------



## Sandycane (Jul 28, 2008)

Turns out, the only problem I 'solved' was to delete the files waiting to be copied...I Still Can't Copy to a disk. I started a new thread for this issue in the 'Multimedia' section.

I can open and view the contents of a disk but, nothing will copy to a disk.
Also, I can't open HpDirector.

Something keeps coming to mind: when you told me how to save screen, the first time I did it, I 'copied' the file from my desktop and 'pasted' to this text box (instead of 'attaching' as I discovered how to do the next time). A warning popped up and said the action might damage my computer - I did it anyway.  Could this have caused the problem?

I have the original pictures saved on disk...I'd also like to have all the 'cropped' files saved, too and then the pdf's and then the finished product.
The 'cropped' folder is only about 176MB - 1/4 of the originals.


----------



## Noyb (May 25, 2005)

Also, I can't open HpDirector.
That's OK .. I never install it anyway .. Irfanview can run my HP AIO scanner better than HP anyway.
The IE7 update can kill the HP director .. I'm still using IE6
Are you using IE7 or have you applied the HP patch ??
What's the model number of your HP AIO ??

A warning popped up and said the action might damage my computer - I did it anyway.
That doesn't really make any sense to me .. I don't really know ???


----------



## Sandycane (Jul 28, 2008)

AIO = All-in-one...took me a minute to figure that one out. 

I think it's the series 1315. I'll check when I get home (couldn't leave at lunch).

I read about the IE7 Hp director problem in a newsletter on your web site. :up: Yes, I recently installed IE7 - here and at home. I'm getting used to it but, I did like IE6 better.

Is it possible that my problem could be with the disk?
 I feel stupid telling you this but, the disk I was trying to copy to is a Maxell DVD-RW (bought a pack of them at WallMart Sunday). The one I was able to copy to is a Maxell CD-RW.

I read the label and thought it said it was good for video, music or, text documents.


----------



## Noyb (May 25, 2005)

When you get the AIO number, go here and see if HP has an IE7 fix for HP director.
http://welcome.hp.com/country/us/en/support.html
Better yet .. Use Firefox .. and go back to IE6

Even Better Yet ..
I never install all that HP Junk .. But get only the basic drivers for the AIOs from the site above.
Then use Irfanview to run the Scanner.
Besides other reasons .. I hate it when a scanner or other routine puts the picture somewhere .. 
then I have to find n fetch it to see it - or fix it .. then store it where I want it.

The Irfanview scanner routine will acquire the scan directly to Irfanvew ..
then I can fix it if needed and store it where I want it stored.
If you didn't see it in all your reading ... attached is my Irfanview Scan shortcut .. (zipped)
then I drag it to my start menu.

I'm pretty sure that your HP only burns DVD+R .. Note the *(+)*
The only brand I'll get at Wally-World is Sony.
I won't say who .. But once upon a time I know someone who had three support Emails to HP before they asked him (+) or (-) R ??


----------



## Sandycane (Jul 28, 2008)

I'm getting waaaay off track here. 

I ran the HP AIO Check and this is what came up: http://h10025.www1.hp.com/ewfrf/wc/...roduct=374575&lang=en&softwareitem=mp-24061-2

Do I want to do this uninstall? Do I need a disk to reinstall? Sounds risky to me. 

I'm going to try to work on the PdfCreator.
I feel better now that I know (think) I can save everything to the flash drive.

(I'm really enjoying this screen saver and Irfanview combo  )


----------



## Sandycane (Jul 28, 2008)

Nevermind...Geesh, this HP AIO Checker is 'more stupider' than me. 
It wanted me to go jump all those hoops because a 'wrong driver' was installed...

The USB cable was unplugged! LOL
I'm about to take a long vacation from this computer!


----------



## Noyb (May 25, 2005)

Don't think so ... Looks like this is what you need ..
http://h10025.www1.hp.com/ewfrf/wc/...en&dlc=en&cc=us&lang=en&os=228&product=374575

I backed up to IE6 .. also cures the IE7 - HP Director problem.
Then like I said .. Just don't use HP director and use Irfanview instead.
HP Director is still working .. You just can't see it with IE7 installed.

Actually .. you probably don't need any of the HP Image Zone junk
If you want to use Irfanview to run the scanner .. you can remove all the HP Image zone ..
and install this .. http://h10025.www1.hp.com/ewfrf/wc/...en&dlc=en&cc=us&lang=en&os=228&product=374575
This is just the basic drivers needed to run the printer scanner.

You might want to wait till you get the book done before you mess with any of this.

One thing you wont find in the Irfanview help ... (the center mouse key shortcut)
I like to double click on the image to see it full screen without the tool bar
Then you can right or left click to scroll thru the images in a folder.
To return to the normal screen viewing mode .... click your center mouse key .. 
(press on the scroll wheel .. it's also a mouse key)


----------



## Sandycane (Jul 28, 2008)

> You might want to wait till you get the book done before you mess with any of this.


Absolutely. 

I've got good news and bad news:

The bad news is - I am such an idiot sometimes. You know why Pdf Creator wouldn't install or work properly?? I didn't have the printer connected to my computer (USB cable).

The good news is - I'm Finished!!! 
I plugged in the USB, turned on the printer, reinstalled Pdf Creator (I LOVE PDF CREATOR  ) and Bam! not one snag, error or glitch!

Total: 34,239KB 

Now, after I proof-read tomorrow, I'll be ready to find out how to upload it to web sites.

Thank you - everyone who helped, especially Noyb - never could have done this without you!
I'll post a link to the finished product when I have one.

Sandy


----------



## letchworth (Jul 2, 2005)

You're done???

Congratulations!!!!

letchworth


----------



## Noyb (May 25, 2005)

Fantastic news.
Weird ... I never had to have my AIO turned on to get pdfCreator to work ??
But HP Image zone can create strange problems ... That's why I refuse to install it.
I really get upset when a program tries to hijack my computer.

Maybe IE 7 is the reason you can't upload to the site .. some strange setting somewhere ?? 
I'm still using IE6 to upload.

Hurry up .. I'm dying to see it.
Anyone know where else Sandy could host this 34mb pdf file ??


----------



## Sandycane (Jul 28, 2008)

Thanks, Guys. 

I just had a crazy idea...don't shoot me.
Since I have a week left with the original book and since the quality of the final product is dependent on the quality of the photos....
I'm going to rig up better lighting and maybe a tripod and see if there is any improvement.

I'm happy with what I have but, I know it can be better.  I also know Dr. Roholm is smiling somewhere (or laughing?)


----------



## Noyb (May 25, 2005)




----------



## letchworth (Jul 2, 2005)

Noyb said:


> Anyone know where else Sandy could host this 34mb pdf file ??


http://www.mediafire.com/about.php
In fact I have a recipe on that one as a place keeper that you might enjoy (Title is lame, but recipe is delicious)
http://www.mediafire.com/file/zzlglmutbiz/Zucchini Casserole.doc

http://www.filemojo.com/
(I have over 300 megs of custom recorded audio material there)

Both are free. One of them you have to at least check every 30 days or files are removed until you upload them again.

There are lots of recommendations for other sites on Tech Support Guy- but these are two I have used over the last year as result of recommendations here.

If memory serves me- limit for each file is 100 meg- so no problems there.

Sandy; burn your current file to at least 2 CDs- and double check them before making changes-- but I applaud your diligence in trying to improve the images before release-- (Even though they look great now)

Good luck
letchworth


----------



## Sandycane (Jul 28, 2008)

Noyb said:


>


 
Did you make that???

Maybe instead of retaking photos, you can instruct me on how to use Irfanview to scan them? :up:


----------



## Sandycane (Jul 28, 2008)

> Sandy; burn your current file to at least 2 CDs- and double check them before making changes-- but I applaud your diligence in trying to improve the images before release-- (Even though they look great now)
> 
> Good luck
> letchworth


 I'm having a problem with CD's right now...but, I will save them to a flash storage.
Thanks for the encouragement.


----------



## Noyb (May 25, 2005)

No .. I stole that from the internet .. I liked it.

To scan a copy of a photo will not make it better.
You can only do that with better pictures.


----------



## Sandycane (Jul 28, 2008)

I meant scan directly from the book page into the scanner.


----------



## Noyb (May 25, 2005)

Sandycane said:


> I meant scan directly from the book page into the scanner.


Yes .. If you have a lot of HDD space ... I'd use at least 300dpi scan setting and full color .. and make new "originals"

I was thinking the book was too fragile


----------



## Noyb (May 25, 2005)

Turn your scanner on.
Run Irfanview >>> go to File >> Select Twain source 
Choose WIA-HP Photosmart (.. etc ..) >> Select.
You should only have to do this the first time.

Now Fetch my shortcut .. attached .. unzip it to your desktop ...
put the book page in the scanner and hit my shortcut ...

You will have a chance now to set the scan dpi and color mode.


----------



## Sandycane (Jul 28, 2008)

Noyb said:


> Turn your scanner on.
> Run Irfanview >>> go to File >> Select Twain source
> Choose WIA-HP Photosmart (.. etc ..) >> Select.
> You should only have to do this the first time.
> ...


...if only I could ...some of us have to 'work' for a paycheck, Mr. 'no occupation'. 
I'll try it as soon as I get home.
The book is 'fragile' but, after handling it for the photo shoot, I think it will do okay in the scanner. I'll lay a heavy towel over the book instead of trying to close the lid.


----------



## Noyb (May 25, 2005)

At least the fruits of my labor are constructive now .. I hope.

PS .. I'd save the scans as a BMP .. Do all the editing and saving in a bmp format.
these will be your new edited "originals"
Then .. I'd batch process the bmp "originals" to a downsized jpg for pdfCreator.

It does not surprise me at all ... That GM is going bankrupt.
After what I saw going on in engineering all day long ... 
I'd about faint when my car started and the radio would play ... 
No way that could happen.


----------



## Sandycane (Jul 28, 2008)

I couldn't wait to try my new toy...
(I love all these cool tips you've been showing me :up::up: ...I didn't know I could change the 'dpi' on my scans!!)

I think this is going to be much better than the cybershot images!


----------



## Sandycane (Jul 28, 2008)

...I forgot to reduce the size before posting attachment...

I just opened the attachment:

Oh No...what happened??? I saved it as BMP and reduced the size to 725w.


----------



## Noyb (May 25, 2005)

(I didn't know I could change the 'dpi' on my scans!!)

Yes .. dpi is the resolution ... You want to keep it as high as possible during the capture - editing process.

At 300dpi resolution and a good contrast ratio scan .... 
Do you have a hunch what might come next ???

Hint ... ocr


----------



## Sandycane (Jul 28, 2008)

Goody!! Something new. 

Why did my pdf get turned cockeyed???


----------



## Noyb (May 25, 2005)

Don't Know ???
When you get a good page scan in a bmp format .. with lots of text .. 
Email it to me


----------



## Sandycane (Jul 28, 2008)

okay...I'll be home in 30 minutes.


----------



## Noyb (May 25, 2005)

Letchworth .. 
Cant attach images to a PM .. So heres the procedure to customize a shortcut with pictures
The scan shortcut is an Ifranview shortcut with a command line appended to the path to start Irfanview in the acquire mode.
This is done by appending the command line  (space)/scan .. to the target of the Irfanview shortcut.

Create a shortcut to Irfanview on the desktop  then right click on it .. and choose properties.
Append a (space)/scan to the target path .. OK

Now to change the icon to look like a scanner ..
Right click on the shortcut .. choose properties .. Change Icon 
Browse to  C:\Windows\system32\SHELL32.dll .. find the scanner icon .. OK

See Irfanview Help > Overview > Command Line Options


----------



## Noyb (May 25, 2005)

Just for grins .. and because Sandy's 30 minutes are up ... actually well over due .. 
I always use Irfanview for screen shots.
after I copy the screen shot ... with a PrtScr or ALT+PrtScr ..
I open Irfanview and do a PASTE .. then save the screen shot.

Now that Letchworth has me thinking .. Why not make a shortcut that will open Irfanview and do a PASTE with one click.

I was looking for a picture of Elmers Glue for the "Paste" shortcut .. but couldn't find one.
My next choice is attached


----------



## letchworth (Jul 2, 2005)

Works sweet--

By-the-way, how difficult is it to create an icon from a picture or clip art??



letchworth


----------



## Noyb (May 25, 2005)

Open mouth .. Insert glue 
I have Microangleo .. and have made icons before .. but that was some time ago.
My Wetware has got dusty .. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wetware


----------



## Sandycane (Jul 28, 2008)

Sorry I'm late...Bosses birthday party. 
I'm finished proofreading. What next?

I'll look back in the emails and try to log on to your web site.


----------



## Noyb (May 25, 2005)

Next .. I'd make sure I had a copy on a CD or in a Flash Drive.
When you try to upload .. Send me a screen shot of the IE error.
You might also try an upload from work.
Just upload the pdf file ... or files you have.

After that .. I'd like to the result of a scan or two.
Depending on how much work you want to put into this ... 
We might be able to OCR the scanned pages.
Then you'll probably have a pdf that's small enough to Email.

I'll PM you the upload link again .. just in case.


----------



## Sandycane (Jul 28, 2008)

I have two copies o the pdf finished book...maybe that's why my computer is bogging down???

I was able to open the links from your emails, from Firefox but, don't see how to upload the file.

This is nice...
http://kcug.home.comcast.net/~kcug/


----------



## Sandycane (Jul 28, 2008)

I wish I could afford a better computer...then I could do ten thousand things at once!


----------



## Noyb (May 25, 2005)

I have the IE addon to Firefox.
https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/addon/1419

Using FF ... 
I click on the upload link .. switch to IE .. and drag to the web window.

5000 things requires twin screens .. drag to this window


----------



## Sandycane (Jul 28, 2008)

I'm thoroughly confused.

I'll check with you for my name and password tomorrow.
Nitey-nite.


----------



## Sandycane (Jul 28, 2008)

Okay, now I can sleep peacefully...

http://www.scribd.com/doc/11757791/Fluorine-Intoxication-Kaj-Roholm-1937-Copenhagenhttp://www.scribd.com/share/upload/8619779/1xqg3ydzwzn3meyygu99

Comments and critiques welcomed.


----------



## Noyb (May 25, 2005)

Great ... That site is very fast 
It's also here now ... http://kcug.home.comcast.net/
or the direct link .. http://kcug.home.comcast.net/Fluorine.pdf

No logging in required

Looked like pdf pages 274 and 289 could be rotated.
That's all I saw on a quick first pass thru


----------



## Noyb (May 25, 2005)

Nice find on that hosting site :up: .... Just like my kid ..
I taught him what little I know .. Then he rushed off and learned more 

What's next ???
I'm thinking maybe see if scanning the book can be used to make a better pdf
It should be more readable.
I'd like to see how a page or two will look when scanned.
The procedures will probably change a little.

I really doubt that you will want to try to OCR this.
The editing (doc reconstruction) will be a huge chore.


----------



## Sandycane (Jul 28, 2008)

Sheesh...I've had computer trouble all day...I just got rid of IE7, and will do the same on mine later. This shouldn't affect the new programs I've installed, should it?

You are being modest - you know A Lot! and thanks to you, I know more than I did one week ago. :up: - three new programs and a bunch of other tips.

I'm thinking...
I'll try scanning a few pages but, I doubt they will look any better than what I have. I think I'll have better results though if I set up better lighting, get the images centered better with less background and use the same camera for all of the photos. 

I had trouble opening the pdf from Scribd today so, I couldn't look at the pages you said need rotating but, I'm pretty sure I know what they are - two B&W plates?
I wanted to keep all the pages in the 'portrait' view for this pdf.


----------



## Noyb (May 25, 2005)

NOPE ... I had no trouble dumping IE7
The scanner will take higher resolution pictures and lighting will not be a problem.
obviously .. your choice and work .. 
apparently you haven't wore that mouse out yet .. must be a good one 

I wanted to keep all the pages in the 'portrait' view for this pdf.
I understand

two B&W plates?
Two sideways illustrations .. text rotated .. but they would not be portrait then.


----------



## Sandycane (Jul 28, 2008)

I'll bet if you give me a page number, I can tell you what chapter it's in. 

So much better with IE6. :up:

I set up a table-top easel, used three 75watt lamps, with a ceiling light and this is what I got:
(no better than the first batch, I think )

Then I tried with two 75watt lamps, the ceiling light and the camera flash. Better but, in the 100% view in pdf, I don't like the grainy look of the text. Is this because of the cropping and resizing???

I'm going to play with the scanner next.


----------



## Noyb (May 25, 2005)

In the attached .. see the noisy halo around the sharp edges of the text ??
this is the jpg compression creating the noise.
I'm not sure if it's coming from the camera or the processing procedures you're using.
Always use 100% jpg quality when saving a picture .. for these procedures.

If you scan .. save the scan as a bmp .. edit the bmp ...
and only convert to jpg when you make the pdf .. it should look a lot better.


----------



## Sandycane (Jul 28, 2008)

Noyb said:


> In the attached .. see the noisy halo around the sharp edges of the text ??
> this is the jpg compression creating the noise.
> I'm not sure if it's coming from the camera or the processing procedures you're using.
> Always use 100% jpg quality when saving a picture .. for these procedures.
> ...


'Noisy halo' = grainy 

Okay, I'll try that next.
Question about your scanner shortcut:
Do I have to re-open and close Iview for every scan???
Is there a way to scan from Iview?

here is the 1st scan using this proceedure:
Scan @ 300dpi, crop scan, 'accept'.

From Iview, resize to 725w, custom crop to 700x920, grayscale, save as jpg 100%.

Shortcuts?

I am also having to reset the dpi for every scan, too.

(the page is whiter but, I've still got the halo)


----------



## Noyb (May 25, 2005)

????
I'd save the original scans .. or camera pictures ... 
then edit them layer ... always keeping the originals.

The scan shortcut will start Irfanview and the scanner.
It's up to you to save the scan somewhere .. then close Irfaview.

I'd custom Crop to a fixed ratio ... Then resize to a pixel size.
Maybe this is why some of your book pages are not a consistent width .. 
but they're close

Is it me ... or is the noise less ??
Can you Email me an original scan ??


----------



## Sandycane (Jul 28, 2008)

Ooooh, this is looking better! 

From scan, I clicked on B&W before saving - saves a step in Iview. Should make the file size much smaller, too, right?

The scanning process takes longer but, saves steps elsewhere. :up:

What do you think?


----------



## Noyb (May 25, 2005)

Yes B/W should be smaller .. But I wouldn't worry bout files size here .. 
But I have BIG HDs

Not sure about saving steps .. but should be better


----------



## Sandycane (Jul 28, 2008)

I know y'all must think I'm nuts...but, I think this is a HUGE improvement. Pages aren't 'warped' like they are in the photos.
There is still a bit of halo but, it's much easier to read than the 'grayscale' pdf - don't you think?

Take my word for it - definitely saving steps. but...I'm not saving an original scan...just the finished crop and the pdf. Don't need the original scan.

Back to work.


----------



## Noyb (May 25, 2005)

If you find a goof .. or decide to change procedures .. such as the crop ...
You may want to go back to the originals.

Also look like they have a better contrast ratio ... 
White is whiter .. and black is blacker


----------



## Sandycane (Jul 28, 2008)

Had to make a judgment call...

The 'crack' between the pages are scanning too dark unless I smush the book down flat. After doing 14 pages, I decided this would be too much stress for this old book. 

Isn't there some way to get the B&W effect with Iview??? I tried the color adjustment features and couldn't quite get it right. 
If I could use the original photos and swap them to B&W, I think that would be an improvement.

Is there some way to open these images with the scanner viewer and edit the color (switch to B&W) from there?


----------



## Noyb (May 25, 2005)

I'm a little confused ??
Converting to B/W - is what convert to grayscale is.
Grayscale is B & W and all shades of gray in between.

In Photoshop .. I can set a threshold where the shades of gray are split to all B - or all W
Don't think that's possible in the scanner or Irfan.
Setting a threshold and converting to all B - or all W .. may not be what you want to do. 

Smushing will be a problem with the scanner more than a camera.
The reason the scanner looks better .. it takes higher res pictures and has better lighting.

Is there somewhere where you can borrow a higher resolution camera ..
Like about 8 mega pixels or better ??
And - I'd guess that more light will help the camera you have.

Right now .. It'd be my objective .. to get the best picture you can .. 
and save any processing procedures or decisions for later.


----------



## Sandycane (Jul 28, 2008)

Grayscale in Iview = gray pages
B&W in scanner options = white page with black text

The three 75watt lights I used didn't get it light enough...I need to be able to convert the image to straight B&W - like I can do with a scanned image.

I may buy a new camera today.

Another link to book: http://www.archive.org/details/FluorineIntoxication


I'm going to the Gutenberg page next.
edit: didn't see where I could upload to Gutenberg or, Google books.
I'll keep searching.
Any other suggestions?


----------



## letchworth (Jul 2, 2005)

Noyb said:


> I'm a little confused ??
> Converting to B/W - is what convert to grayscale is.
> Grayscale is B & W and all shades of gray in between


I think what Sandycane is referring to (if my Scan Wizard is anything like hers- mine is from Microtech, but sounds similar) is that the ScanWizard (or whatever HP calls it) on mine has four options: True Color, Web Color, Gray, and B&W.

Using the B&W setting as you scan the image creates much smaller files- but loses a LOT of information- therefore the text, although on an almost pure white background, is raggedy & harder to read. (That is why OCR software recommends using Grey to have as much to work with as possible).

Indeed, Irfanview has the option of converting a photo into Grayscale- but that keeps all the photo information just converting it to shades of gray rather than color or whatever the original was.

Sandycane, my thought is that if you scan in Gray- you will find it much more readable- and can even consider OCR at a later date if you scan at 300 dpi. The individual file sizes will be larger but can be trimmed down by post-processing. Since you have the book for such a short time, get the best possible pictures you can now (scanner will take care of a lot of the lighting problem) and worry about file size later.

The only caveat to that is that the paper aging (yellowing) will also be picked up in gray scan- but if you try it, I think you will be very pleased with what you see (lots more readable than the B&W scans).

Also, Sandycane, if you would send me an original scan in .jpg at 300 dpi- I'd love to try OCR on it (just for my own curiosity). I did run OCR on the B&W- and found about 90-95% accuracy- but I think gray will raise that even higher.

Once the book is returned you will have all kinds of time to play with your images- and, in the meantime, you have already posted a pretty nice copy of the book for anyone interested.

Just my thoughts
letchworth


----------



## Noyb (May 25, 2005)

Morning Letchwort .. I was about to say the same thing .. sorta ??

B/W only may reduce the readability .. I'm thinking the human eye/mind is a better filter that any software.
I was avoiding saying that the scanner can be set to do B/W only.

Also .. if you get the best color/grayscale photo to start with .. B/W conversion can be done later .. if you decide to do this.

Which camera are you thinking about ??? .. and how big is the toy budget ??
Do NOT load any software than comes with the camera.


----------



## Sandycane (Jul 28, 2008)

Good morning, letchworth. 
Yes, that is what I was trying to describe about the difference between scanning in B&W and converting to grayscale.

However, as much as I would love to do it, I just can't bring myself to 'man-handle' this book by using the scanner.

Is there some kind of 'wand' scanner? Even if there is, it would be impossible to order one and have it delivered before the week is out. 

Send me your email in a PM and I'll send you an original photo image to 'play with'.


----------



## Sandycane (Jul 28, 2008)

Noyb said:


> Morning Letchwort .. I was about to say the same thing .. sorta ??
> 
> B/W only may reduce the readability .. I'm thinking the human eye/mind is a better filter that any software.
> I was avoiding saying that the scanner can be set to do B/W only.
> ...


 How big is the toy budget? ...I have a credit card. 

But, the question is: How much of an improvement will I get using an 8mp camera vs the 3.5mp I have now?


----------



## Noyb (May 25, 2005)

Like letchworth said .. and I'll say again .. Keep - and do NOT edit the originals.

I've been wishfully watching ...
http://www.bestbuy.com/site/olspage.jsp?skuId=8757268&type=product&id=1202650703335
or 
http://www.bestbuy.com/site/olspage.jsp?skuId=8757286&type=product&id=1202650191119

But only because I have 2 Sony's and I'm familiar with them.
Now may not be the time to buy a Camera .. I suspect the new models are about ready to come out.
The last time this happened .. (about this time last year) ..
The price went down and the performance went up.

I'll see if I can shoot you a sample at 7.2 Mpixels with my Sony DSC H5
http://www.dcresource.com/reviews/sony/dsc_h5-review/


----------



## Noyb (May 25, 2005)

Ambient lighting from my patio door ... 
Could have set up a little better and got better lighting.
My favorite subject ... Original shot ... http://kcug.home.comcast.net/H5.JPG
After Grayscale and auto adjust ... http://kcug.home.comcast.net/H5.2.jpg

Notice .. No noise ...


----------



## Sandycane (Jul 28, 2008)

On sale for $313...that's not bad.

I'm satisfied with the photos I have...but, there has got to be a way for me to convert them to the B&W image I get with a scanned image.
I'd like to make the file size smaller, to load quicker. I also want to eliminate all the background color from the text...just black on white.

Come on, Noyb, put on your thinking cap and tell me how to do this! 

When I use the scanner, a scanner 'wizard' opens and I can convert to B&W. Is there some way to open the photo image with the scanning wizard?
You can do it!


----------



## Noyb (May 25, 2005)

After a fine rotation and downsizing to 800x1096 ..
http://kcug.home.comcast.net/H5.3.jpg
Still almost no noise .. better lighting might have helped


----------



## Noyb (May 25, 2005)

Thinking cap on ... and using Photoshop to threshold (split Black n Whites)
you can see there's a problem.
To cut out the background noise .. the text is getting a little thin.
http://kcug.home.comcast.net/H5.4.jpg
Increasing the threashold for better text brings up the background noise.
http://kcug.home.comcast.net/H5.5.jpg

I can usually manually erase the noise (splatter) ... in Photoshop.
But .. I'm thinking at this point it's better to let the readers eye/mind do the filtering.

A lot has to do with the background color of the original page .. sorta gray with this sample


----------



## Noyb (May 25, 2005)

> I'd like to make the file size smaller, to load quicker. I also want to eliminate all the background color from the text


The instant you said "File Size" .. You jumped to an OCR project.
This will also convert to B/W since the OCR reader will read only text... (Hopefully)
This will be a massive editing job that will need the highest res pics you can get ... un-edited.
Maybe you can enlist some TSG volunteers for the 350 pages.

Using Photoshop ... I can split out the pictures .. improve them a little ..
then you'll have better pics for the M$ word reassembly of the OCRed pages.

You may also need to figure out how to upload the originals to the kcug site ..
so we can fetch the originals ... they will be way too big to Email


----------



## Noyb (May 25, 2005)

If you decide on the DSC H50 .. may I suggest ..
You'll need a bigger memory card.
I'd suggest getting a faster one .. I have a 1GB Scandisc Extreame III .. that I got from Newegg.
I can feel the difference over the slower one.

The lithium-ion batteries are nice .. They last longer and don't self discharge as quick.
But they're not cheap and you'll probably want a spare.
Photoshop Elements 7 is also a nice accessory.


----------



## Sandycane (Jul 28, 2008)

I'll be in the poorhouse if I listen to you much longer!

I just sent you 4 new pictures to play with. Let me know if you have any luck.
It appears that scanning is the best way to go but, I can't do that with this book. 
I sent the link to the Fluoride Alert web site and the owner said, 'Terrific!' and would post it for me.
I'm happy. 

Now, back to the mundane chores I've put off all week.


----------



## Noyb (May 25, 2005)

Here's what happens if you OCR a higher res. scan ..
This will be a very small file and only Black or White.
But .. You'll have a lot of editing (formatting) and correcting to do.

The resulting pdf file will also be very small.

How's your Microsoft word skills ??


----------



## Noyb (May 25, 2005)

Here's what happens if the picture gray scale is split to all back or all white.
this will take some costware image editing.
Above the red line is the original .. below is "fixed"
My Eye/Mind likes the original better.

The resulting picture will still be a large file ..


----------



## Sandycane (Jul 28, 2008)

Noyb said:


> Here's what happens if you OCR a higher res. scan ..
> This will be a very small file and only Black or White.
> But .. You'll have a lot of editing (formatting) and correcting to do.
> 
> ...


This is perfect! ...but, I can't scan this book.  If it belonged to me, I would but, I don't want to risk ruining a library book.


----------



## Sandycane (Jul 28, 2008)

Noyb said:


> Here's what happens if the picture gray scale is split to all back or all white.
> this will take some costware image editing.
> Above the red line is the original .. below is "fixed"
> My Eye/Mind likes the original better.
> ...


I'm with you on this one, the original looks better but, still not as good as the scan.  If there is only slight improvement in the color and clarity of text, I can't see going through the trouble of redoing it. If I could scan it, I would.

ps: I'm pretty good with MS Word.


----------



## Noyb (May 25, 2005)

> This is perfect! ...but, I can't scan this book. If it belonged to me, I would but, I don't want to risk ruining a library book.


A higher res picture will probably work.
But, the worse the pic quality .. The more editing that will be needed.
Do NOT edit the pic after taking it.

Using Irfan .. convert it to a tif image and have M$ Office document Imaging read it ... and convert to a word doc.

If it were me with Photoshop .. I'd edit the picture removing any non text items .. then send it to M$ Office.
You can also crop it to include just the text items.


----------



## Sandycane (Jul 28, 2008)

Woo-Hoo!!!  I knew you'd find a solution!!! 

I didn't know I could do this on my computer!!

I opened image with Iview (no editing at all), saved as Tif, opened with MS doc. imaging, clicked on tools, clicked on 'recognize text using OCR (I had to install it), send text to Word. Voila!!

Now, do I run this Word doc. through Pdf Creator? (after corrections, of course  )

This is fantastic!!!
How much smaller will the file size be?
The one I now have uploaded take quite a while to open...imagine it would be impossible for someone with dial-up. 

Thank You! Thank You! Thank You! :up:


----------



## Sandycane (Jul 28, 2008)

ps: now I understand why a lot of the online documents I've read had so many spelling errors: they were using OCR, and didn't bother to edit in Word, right? 

This will definitely take me the rest of the week...but, well worth it!


----------



## Sandycane (Jul 28, 2008)

I had to change the font size...
I think this will work out perfectly!:up:


----------



## Sandycane (Jul 28, 2008)

You may not hear from me for a few days...unless I run into trouble.


----------



## Noyb (May 25, 2005)

I don't think I've seen anyone get so excited over how much work they've just created for themselves.

You will have some trouble when you get to the charts and pages with illustrations.
Not sure yet, but it might be easier to use Excel on these pages

I do not envy you when you have to edit the last pages of references ...
too bad they're not in English where your Spell checker would have helped.

when you get to the pages with pictures .. let me help.
send me the page and I'll extract the photos.
here .. You will OCR just the text .. and put the pictures back into the word file.

Some pages .. it might be easier to crop to small sections of text .. read it.
then reassemble the final doc from the pieces.
I have a hunch .. You'll see what I mean when you get there.


----------



## letchworth (Jul 2, 2005)

Sandycane said:


> I had to change the font size...
> I think this will work out perfectly!:up:


Your file looks great--- good for you

letchworth


----------



## Noyb (May 25, 2005)

I've been looking ahead to see what problems Sandy might run into.

M$ Document Imaging (MODI) was a complete failure at reading the chart on page 12-13

So I dug around in one of my external Hard Drives .. Found ABBYY Fine Reader Pro .. and installed it.

Then told ABBYY to read .. http://kcug.home.comcast.net/P012-13.jpg

Attached is what ABBYY read.
I'm at a complete loss on how to edit it to look like the original.

*Any M$ Word editing experts out there ??*


----------



## Sandycane (Jul 28, 2008)

letchworth said:


> Your file looks great--- good for you
> 
> letchworth


Thanks!
I'm getting started...now. Let's see how long this version takes.


----------



## Sandycane (Jul 28, 2008)

Noyb said:


> I've been looking ahead to see what problems Sandy might run into.
> 
> M$ Document Imaging (MODI) was a complete failure at reading the chart on page 12-13
> 
> ...


 Actually, that's pretty good. I see that your original was of a double-wide...I have photos of single pages I can send you. Would you be able to splice them together in the middle for a 'seamless' effect?

Yes, I'm very excited!! 
Before you came up with this new process, I must admit, I was ready to call it quits.

Off to work!
(love your Leprechaun ...hope he sends some Luck O' the Irish my way tonight! )


----------



## letchworth (Jul 2, 2005)

Noyb said:


> So I dug around in one of my external Hard Drives .. Found ABBYY Fine Reader Pro .. and installed it.
> 
> Then told ABBYY to read .. http://kcug.home.comcast.net/P012-13.jpg
> 
> ...


What version of Abbyy Fine Reader Pro are you using- that is fantastic for that file. When I tried reading that same file with version 7- it told me the file resolution looked "suspicious"- and wondered if it was 96dpi or below. What I got was nowhere near as good as you got.

I also tried ScanSoft OmniPage 12 on it-- even worse (both programs are far from current versions- but I use Abbyy ver.7 several times a week and it does a great job on "normal" things.)

I turned my back for a few minutes and you guys have done some good stuff. There will obviously have to be some editing on stuff like this, but I got 99% plus recognition on the higher resolution scanning that Sandycane did of straight text.

letchworth


----------



## Sandycane (Jul 28, 2008)

This is no longer a 'project'; it's a career. 

I literally had to rewrite every page...it 'sees' the letter 'e' as a 'c'...do you know how many 'e's there are on a page of text  A lot!  And, the Danish words??? Spellcheck picks them up and I have to double-check the spelling against the photo.

I decided to keep the color jpg photos for the first few pages and the cover.

The table of contents pages are impossible...I may have to insert them as edited/cropped/grayscale jpg from Iview.

I'm wondering about the process:
When I am finished with imaging and send to Word, is there a way to add all the pages to the same Word document? I've been having to close it out and start the whole process new with each image.

There is no way I can finish this in 6 days but, at least I have the original photos to check the accuracy/spelling of the text. This will be a Royal Pain but, I think the results will be worth it. :up:

It's definitely much smaller - I couldn't upload this many pages before! 

Here's what I've got so far:


----------



## Noyb (May 25, 2005)

> What version of Abbyy Fine Reader Pro are you using


Pro 8.0.0.706


> I have photos of single pages I can send you. Would you be able to splice them together in the middle for a 'seamless' effect?


Should be able to edit this in Word ???
maybe I could edit the page picture in Photoshop .. and OCR it again.
If you have better pics .. Send them


> is there a way to add all the pages to the same Word document?


I would think you could open a new doc ... and start Pasting in new pages.
then insert page breaks where needed.


> It's definitely much smaller - I couldn't upload this many pages before!


Do you really need the Pictures of the starting pages ??
To reduce the file size .. I'd remove as many unnecessary pics as possible.
I'm thinking Cover only... and a note somewhere that it was converted to a computer format by Sandy

What is your objective .. to reproduce the book exactly ..
or capture the important information ??
Using OCR, I don't think you'll be able to make an exact copy.
The original publisher was thinking paper .. now your trying to make an eBook ..
there's a difference in the "screens"


----------



## Sandycane (Jul 28, 2008)

The new Word doc is working out.
I decided to do some more scans and compare...a lot less editing required with the scan (I know, you told me that).

Rough draft (more accurate editing needed) This is everything before chapter 1...
On my re-do, I'll skip the page breaks and seperate 'documents' by chapter.
???


----------



## Sandycane (Jul 28, 2008)

I just _had _to try the scanning process again... but, it is no good!
The edge of each page(except those at the very front and back), near the spine will not lay flat - looks worse than the cybershot image.

I'm just going to have to work with the images I have - no way around it.

I'm going outside to play now...and figure this out later.


----------



## Noyb (May 25, 2005)

Back a few posts ago .. You mentioned that with the IV scan shortcut...
You always had to set the dpi to 300.

I've been reading the IV help file .. and I'm getting dangerous.

Here's an IV shortcut that will set the dpi to 300 ... *and* ... start the scan .. in one click.

Also .. a ScreenShot shortcut .. That will capture the whole screen and open in IV .. in one click

I like to drag some of my Shortcuts to my start menu


----------



## Sandycane (Jul 28, 2008)

You've got too much spare time on your hands. 
I have a cure:
I just uploaded ALL of the original images to your site. 
(it's working fine now that I have IE6 back)

The 'cropped' and 'pdf' folders are next. 

I just can't do any more with what I have...I'm passing the torch (or albatross) to you. 

If you can make improvements, great. If not, it'll just have to stand as is. 

let me know if it uploaded the way it should.


----------



## Noyb (May 25, 2005)

I get an error trying to download the original photos folder ???
tried 3 different ways ..still NoGo.
The folders in the cropped folder are empty ???
I wonder if you're uploading as I try to fetch it ??

Just guessing ... Might be better to zip the folders before uploading.


----------



## Sandycane (Jul 28, 2008)

I was able to open the folders from the upload page... original and cropped sent. I'll try to zipper the pdf folder.  I'll wait until I hear from you before I do, though.


----------



## Noyb (May 25, 2005)

Already have the first pdf there ?? ... don't see any reason for the other
Removed the first Cropped folder and renamed the second Cropped folder.
For some dumb reason .. I have to go into the Fluorine folder and pull the sub folders individually ... Got a few so far.

I have my doubts that the OCR work will be a mission possible ??
But maybe you should upload any word docs you have so far

These should upload really fast.


----------



## Sandycane (Jul 28, 2008)

No can do - I've deleted all my 'experiments' ...I was having to do tooooo much rewriting on each page and, like you said, the charts were impossible. 

What you have is all I have.


----------



## Noyb (May 25, 2005)

Maybe the next step will be to edit a few pages as a final touch up.
For example .. The sideways illustrations are tough to read in the pdf format.
Im thinking - Take this one sideways page .. and make two Profile pages.
You do not have the software to do this,

Page 1 of 2 .. of this revised sample attached ... rough draft
First 2 of the 4 pictures shown on this page.
My new text might need editing ??

I'm not done having fun yet.
Whatcha Think ??


----------



## Sandycane (Jul 28, 2008)

That looks fantastic!
You're having more fun because you have better toys. 
...I have several hundred web pages and documents I need to put into some kind of order/book form (same subject as this book)...so, all of the programs and tips I've learned from you will be put to added good use. 
Thank you!


----------



## Noyb (May 25, 2005)

I edited the above page while you were watching .. refresh it.
With a lot of practice .. you could do these edits in Elements.

Let me take some time .. and rework page 2 ... L8r

Any more suggestion for other pages ??


----------



## Sandycane (Jul 28, 2008)

The main thing I'd like to be able to change from my original pdf is to be able to have a true B&W effect.


----------



## Noyb (May 25, 2005)

I know .. But that's not going to happen with the camera pictures.
any extreme messing with these pictures will really "dirty" them up.

If it were me ... I'd prefer a light gray background to reduce eye strain ...
then make the text pure black.
Sorta like this TSG page with a light blue background.

Your cropped folder only had 118 pictures in them .. some were missing including the one I'm playing with.
That's OK .. I'd rather work from the originals anyway.

Attached .. my latest attempt to split the sideways into two portrait pages.
I'll send your working files via Email

I've played some games on these to try to make it not so obvious that they've been messed with.

Read the text carefully .. It may need some edits.


----------



## Sandycane (Jul 28, 2008)

> I know .. But that's not going to happen with the camera pictures.
> any extreme messing with these pictures will really "dirty" them up.


 Yeah, I know.
Your picture pages look very good. :up:
Did you cut and paste the text or, did you have to retype it in there?

Lots of work for a 368 page book...


----------



## Noyb (May 25, 2005)

I opened a new page, mostly blank ... then made it all blank .. for a consistent background ... (shade of gray)
Then I cut the pictures from the original photo .. Edited them (resize .. etc ..) .. 
and Pasted them to the new page.
Then I typed in the new text .. and positioned every thing.
You can't do this with the software you have.

I wouldn't want to do that for 368 pages... but a dozen or so .. ain't bad.


----------



## Noyb (May 25, 2005)

What do you think of this  .... http://kcug.home.comcast.net/Play.pdf


----------



## bp936 (Oct 13, 2003)

following this thread, it is admirable:up::up: how helpful Noyb is and how much patience you both have to finish such a huge task:up::up:


----------



## Sandycane (Jul 28, 2008)

Very Nice! :up: I like that much better than the grayscale...the pages aren't light on top and dark on the bottom.
How'd you do that?
How does the file size compare to the grayscale pdf?


----------



## Sandycane (Jul 28, 2008)

bp936 said:


> following this thread, it is admirable:up::up: how helpful Noyb is and how much patience you both have to finish such a huge task:up::up:


 Thanks!
I'm amazed at how much patience Noyb has, too. 

Have you ever tackled a project like this? Any tips for improvement?


----------



## Noyb (May 25, 2005)

Looks like the file size is going to be about the same.

Your cropped pics, and the pdf, had different widths.
It was also bugging me that the text was different widths on the pages.

I'm thinking .. that for a pdf .. the text should be wider - with less page on the sides.
I tried to make the page width boundary more consistent ....
Since the pages will probably be viewed by scrolling vertically

I also violated one of your previous rules, that I disagree with.
The page height does not need to be a consistent height .. Just for consistencies sake.
Wastes time scrolling to the next page ... if not necessary.

These are my tips (suggestions) for improvement.

I saw some things that Irfan was doing that I didn't like.
It was also a little easier for me to use Photoshop.

I also tossed away some blank pages .. or merged them together.
Have I just created about a weeks worth of work for myself ??


----------



## Sandycane (Jul 28, 2008)

A year??? 
Why, I bet if we had teamed up on that project we could have finished in a week! 
Very nice site :up: The juke box presentation was great.

Just do what you think is best on the FI book...you're the pro!


----------



## Noyb (May 25, 2005)

As far as a pdf format ... and not a paper/book format .. I like the sizing in ... 
http://kcug.home.comcast.net/Play.pdf

Since I'm using Photoshop .. I can precisely straighten the pages.

I'm not sure about the color .. I can make it gray.
Do you see anything wrong with the above sample ???


----------



## Sandycane (Jul 28, 2008)

I like the color...it's almost exactly the color of the actual book pages.

Besides some blurring of some of the text, I see on p9, the top left corner, the text is a bit warped. Other than that, it looks good to me. :up:

Go ahead and delete the inside cover page (2) and the back inside cover.


----------



## Sandycane (Jul 28, 2008)

How about this:
If you can work on the charts/tables/photos (non-normal text pages), pre-chapter 1 and the Danish summary and bibliography pages, I think I can manage to do the editing required to convert the rest of it to Word.
I know it will take me a long time but, a little here and there, it will eventually get done. 
*don't shoot me again


----------



## Sandycane (Jul 28, 2008)

I did an experiment:
from Iview, with an original photo, I cropped out 1/2 of the text on the page and 'sharpened'. OCR was able to pick up most of it - the exception being the last few lines on the page...it even picked up most of the 'e's 
I think if I work with 1/2 to 1/3 of a page at a time, there will be much less editing.

Here is the text, exactly as OCR picked it up:


----------



## Noyb (May 25, 2005)

Did you notice that I put the library sticker from page 3 on page 2 .. and deleted page 3 ?? 
I also combined Part 1 preview and Chapter 1 .. on one page.
I've also removed the pencil scribbles on some other pages.
I can do about 50 pages a day ... no problem
I was up to C3p047 at shutdown time last nite ... http://kcug.home.comcast.net/Pages59.pdf
pdfCreator works much better if I feed it a Photoshoped bmp file.
but it has to think about it much longer.

The charts may be the OCR stoppers.
There's some Symbols in the text that I can't find in the Character maps.
I also don't know how to work with the Tables.

That's why I experimented with OCRing a chart ... the toughest one first.
Can you edit this page to look like the original ??


----------



## Sandycane (Jul 28, 2008)

I didn't find the ASCii code for the male and female biology symbol (sure it's out there somewhere)

Here is the edit:


----------



## Noyb (May 25, 2005)

It's editing the text boxes ..or deleting the extra rows - columns that I can't get figured out.

Then adding the pre or post text in the right place.
The overall formatting is just too complicated for me


> I didn't find the ASCii code for the male and female biology symbol (sure it's out there somewhere)


Attached .. haven't tried it yet


----------



## Noyb (May 25, 2005)

Works with font installed .. attached


----------



## Sandycane (Jul 28, 2008)

That looks better but, the pdf didn't come out right. 

I'm thinking of doing most of the text pages as the OCR/Word pdf and inserting the charts, pictures and other difficult pages as regular cropped and edited Iview pdf pages.
What do you think?


----------



## Noyb (May 25, 2005)

I don't think you want to make an OCR version.
It would look nice .. But you're responsible for the proof reading and the accuracy of the content ..
Not too mention .. A full time occupation .. Do you want to retire anytime soon 

Soon .. You'll have two pdf versions.
1) your graycale version with photo copies of all pages .. can't get more accurate than that.
2) my newer version in aged color - with the pages edited (sized only) to best fit a pdf reader .. and only pages with information.
I'm up to 157 pages so far... finished 100 more this morning .. Letting my mouse cool off right now.

Since I have the picture pages of my resized versions ...
They can be quickly batch processed .. if you want a gray scale version only.
I'm experimenting with batch processing them right now .. for more readability
I can do some processing in Elements right now ... 
And much more in Photoshop .. But I'm going to have to learn how to do it.

http://kcug.home.comcast.net/157.pdf


----------



## Noyb (May 25, 2005)

Just for grins  .... click here >> http://kcug.home.comcast.net/pdf.htm


----------



## Sandycane (Jul 28, 2008)

Noyb said:


> Just for grins  .... click here >> http://kcug.home.comcast.net/pdf.htm


 Looking good!:up:
My boo-boo ... you have a duplicate of the 'Part 1/ Chapter 1' page. Also, don't forget to delete the library information page - 2.


----------



## Sandycane (Jul 28, 2008)

You need to put your name on the credits page.


----------



## Noyb (May 25, 2005)

That's not your Boo-boo ... I have two pages .. 
one where I added the three lines of the previous page.
I just forgot to leave one page out

There might be something in-between a pdf &#8230; and an OCR version.
Maybe I shouldn't mention this  

You mentioned a Fluorine web site.
I wonder if he would want to host this as a web page ???

This can be made as a web page &#8230;. like I linked to ..
Where you would click on a chapter .. and go to a html page of that chapter.
These will be smaller files.
The 157 pages I just linked you to is only 3.79 mb ... As compared to 15.6 mb for the pdf file.

I can make a rough sample .. As soon as I get the master files (Pictures) made.
I&#8217;ll need to OCR the index - For the front page ... But One step at a time.


----------



## Sandycane (Jul 28, 2008)

Noyb said:


> I don't think you want to make an OCR version.
> It would look nice .. But you're responsible for the proof reading and the accuracy of the content ..
> Not too mention .. A full time occupation .. Do you want to retire anytime soon
> 
> ...


I just looked this over and noticed some things you may be able to fix...

Page 33: is really scary!  (I know you can't fix that.)
Page 52(pdf): Fig.3 - too dark?
Page 133 (pdf): fig.11 - purple/green stripes
Page 157(pdf): fig 19 - too dark?


----------



## Sandycane (Jul 28, 2008)

> There might be something in-between a pdf  and an OCR version.
> Maybe I shouldn't mention this
> 
> You mentioned a Fluorine web site.
> I wonder if he would want to host this as a web page ???


You better not hold back on me!! I'll try anything. 
I have two web sites of my own...can I put it on mine?

Yacket.com
dotnetnews.org


----------



## Noyb (May 25, 2005)

I'll let You 
Just what this topic needed .. another direction


----------



## Sandycane (Jul 28, 2008)

Noyb said:


> I'll let You
> Just what this topic needed .. another direction


 I know...I was thinking the same thing. 
We need to rename this thread: 'The Never-ending How to Copy A Book (and where to put it)Thread'. 

How do I add the pdf to my web site (not just the link)?


----------



## Noyb (May 25, 2005)

Sandycane said:


> How do I add the pdf to my web site (not just the link)?


Upload the pdf .. then add a link to the front page .. or keep the link your secret.

For example .. Here the personal page we're using ... http://kcug.home.comcast.net/
And here's a pdf file contained therein ... http://kcug.home.comcast.net/157.pdf
That not linked to on the front page .. Yet ??

Since you and I have the password and the upload link 
We can use it like a shared Hard Drive for the big stuff .. up to a gig
And I can see what you've put in.


----------



## Noyb (May 25, 2005)

Page 33: is really scary! (I know you can't fix that.) ... Could make baby pacifiers outa them.
Page 52(pdf): Fig.3 - too dark? .... turned the lights on
Page 133 (pdf): fig.11 - purple/green stripes ... removed stripes
Page 157(pdf): fig 19 - too dark? .... turned the lights on

New pdf page numbers ... New version ... 
http://kcug.home.comcast.net/155.pdf


----------



## Sandycane (Jul 28, 2008)

Noyb said:


> Page 33: is really scary! (I know you can't fix that.) ... Could make baby pacifiers outa them.
> Page 52(pdf): Fig.3 - too dark? .... turned the lights on
> Page 133 (pdf): fig.11 - purple/green stripes ... removed stripes
> Page 157(pdf): fig 19 - too dark? .... turned the lights on
> ...


Very good. :up:

I'm working on chapter 1, OCR-style. Breaking up the text on each page and 'sharpening' is eliminating almost all of the text editing (spelling). I started to redo one of the charts, using the table feature in Word but, although it was working, I decided the chance of information transfer error was too great. So, I'm going to try to paste in the charts as jpg. images instead.
I'll post it when it's finished. 
ps: the internetarchive link wasn't working for a couple of days - I emailed them and it's fixed now. :up:

They both (Scribd & IArchive) come up on a google search of 'fluorine intoxication' now.


----------



## Sandycane (Jul 28, 2008)

Chapter 1 - OCR done (except for your inserting the tables and figs  )
How ya gonna do that? 

I uploaded to your site the Word doc.
Here is the pdf:


----------



## Noyb (May 25, 2005)

Sandycane said:


> How ya gonna do that?


open each pic in Irfan ...
Crop it to just the chart ..
convert it to grayscale ..
resize it to something smaller - ?? I used 700 pix wide ??
Save it as a compressed jpg ..

Then drag the figures to the proper place in the doc file ..
something like so ... http://kcug.home.comcast.net/OCR1.doc

You've still got some formatting decisions to make .. and maybe picture sizing


----------



## Noyb (May 25, 2005)

255 pages of the new pdf >>> http://kcug.home.comcast.net/255.pdf
Should I keep going ???


----------



## Sandycane (Jul 28, 2008)

:up:
Can we get the seperate double-wide table pages together on one page in the OCR/pdf doc?
If we used a photo of the entire table?
I think I'll reduce the text size from 14 to 12.
I like it, do you?


----------



## Sandycane (Jul 28, 2008)

Noyb said:


> 255 pages of the new pdf >>> http://kcug.home.comcast.net/255.pdf
> Should I keep going ???


 YES. 

This looks much better than the first grayscale...I like the antique parchment paper effect. The cropping is better, too.


----------



## Noyb (May 25, 2005)

YES .. I'll have to make a double wide pic for each .. no problem
I'm currently making the pdf pages 700 pixels wide.
Will need to decide on a double width - pixel width - that will display the best ??

I found some more sideways pages that I've reconfigured to one page in a profile mode.
I'm custom cropping each pic .. and maybe more edits.

I think I found out why some of your pdf pics got skewed ... the pic was too tall for the width.


----------



## Sandycane (Jul 28, 2008)

Woo-hoo! 
I just received an email from Ellen Connett at Fluoride Alert...she has posted the pdf on the front page of her site (righ-hand column).
I told her I got all my help from you! :up::up:

http://fluoridealert.org/

46 views, 9 downloads already.


----------



## Noyb (May 25, 2005)

Sandycane said:


> 46 views, 9 downloads already.


:up: That's more than I would have expected :up:

Makes this work worthwhile ... 1,696 viewers here so far ..


----------



## Sandycane (Jul 28, 2008)

Noyb said:


> :up: That's more than I would have expected :up:
> 
> Makes this work worthwhile ... 1,696 viewers here so far ..


As I mentioned in my op, this is a precious book...and fluoride is a hot topic. There will be many people who will be glad to have a copy...and thanks to you, they will. 

When I upload the new (your) pdf, I'd like to insert your name at the front as the creator. :up: Okay?


----------



## Noyb (May 25, 2005)

Thanks .. But I'd rather not.
There's been others here who have helped...
And I'm sure if some of the viewers had a suggestion .. They would have jumped in
How bout giving credit to TSG .. Mike's the one who started all of this.


----------



## Sandycane (Jul 28, 2008)

If you insist...(you're so modest!)
I'll credit the Tech Support Guy forum and members. Okay?


----------



## Noyb (May 25, 2005)

That would be good

Got the new pdf made … But I can't figure out why it's bigger than your version …
http://kcug.home.comcast.net/FIcolor.pdf ... 410 pages @ 48.2MB

http://kcug.home.comcast.net/Fluorine.pdf ... 420 pages @ 33.3MB

I've tried a couple of variations .. and it won't go smaller ???
Still need to proof read FIcolor.pdf - if you want to use it.

Anybody got any ideas ??


----------



## Sandycane (Jul 28, 2008)

Noyb said:


> That would be good
> 
> Got the new pdf made  But I cant figure out why its bigger than your version
> http://kcug.home.comcast.net/FIcolor.pdf ... 410 pages @ 48.2MB
> ...


Could the difference in color vs. grayscale be making it larger?


----------



## Noyb (May 25, 2005)

I tried grayscale and it didnt make much difference.

When I made these ..
1) The pictures were re-cropped to make more text and less page width
2) These have been enhanced and sharpened.
Im guessing that this means theres more to print and it takes more file size to print them.

For this one .. I changed the picture size to about match what you were cropping to ..
And made the charts on one page like you asked for earlier
I like it better .. 
http://kcug.home.comcast.net/FI-w.pdf . 405 pages @ 47.4Mb


----------



## Sandycane (Jul 28, 2008)

I just uploaded to you 'copy of chapter 1' in pdf and Word.

I have chapters 1,2 and 3 OCR in Word (looks good ) and the small tables are okay (slightly blurred) and I need to fiddle with the size on the photo/figs a bit but,,,the double-wides are giving me fits. 
I figured out the pamorama feature in Iview and they look good in Word but, when I go to pdf, they are too blurred to read (and run off the page).
I was hoping I could do it so you wouldn't have to...

Do you need any more photos of the book?
I have to return it tomorrow. :down:

Your copy is looking fantastic, btw.


----------



## Noyb (May 25, 2005)

I can't think of anything I need.

Here's the 2 wide charts .. rebuilt
It's easier for me to do it in photoshop than for you to mess with it.
You'll have to decide if you want them in Grayscale or if you want to downsize them.
I try to keep the resolution as high as possible .. till it's needed somewhere
http://kcug.home.comcast.net/2wide.zip


----------



## Sandycane (Jul 28, 2008)

Update, for those interested, in the 'Book Project'. 

The first pdf version has over 280 views and 40 downloads! :up::up: Not bad for just over two weeks.

I'm still working on the OCR version - up to and including chapter 7 completed and uploaded on Scribd. I can revise/ad to as I go along.

I've also uploaded a few other interesting documents... You can view all here:

http://www.scribd.com/violakitty4124


----------



## letchworth (Jul 2, 2005)

You guys have really been hanging in here- the project looks very good (but I can't believe how much work you have accomplished)

letchworth


----------



## Sandycane (Jul 28, 2008)

Thanks, letchworth  
Actually, this book project has been a nice diversion from another I have GOT to get going on: we had a bumper crop of pecans this year and I've gathered about 200lbs. that need to be shelled.
Wish you could help with that project!


----------



## Noyb (May 25, 2005)

I'll be right down .. If I can eat what I shell.

I'm amazed .. I thought you would have given up a long time ago.
Were you ancestors Pit Bulls or Germans ??

It looks like you will be able to retire in this century.


----------



## Sandycane (Jul 28, 2008)

Noyb said:


> I'll be right down .. If I can eat what I shell.


 That's the problem I have...One half goes in the baggie and the other half in my mouth.
 PM me your address and I'll send you some - that's the least I can do for the education you have given me.:up:



> I'm amazed .. I thought you would have given up a long time ago.
> Were your ancestors Pit Bulls or Germans ??


 No, English and Italian. My Dad retired from IBM, maybe I 'got it' from him. 



> It looks like you will be able to retire in this century.


Never happen. I already have my next project on the back burner. 

It's an OCR version of a 600 page document of the testimony recorded at the 1954 Congressional Hearings on the prevention of water fluoridation (Everybody who was anybody at the time testified!).  That one will be a sinch though. All I have to do is 'touch-up' the text cosmetically and proof-read/compare it to the original document.


----------



## letchworth (Jul 2, 2005)

Sandycane said:


> Thanks, letchworth  Wish you could help with that project!


I'll take mine in pie--- with ice cream on the side 

(Actually, several years ago I had a chocolate-pecan pie in Lancaster, OH-- fresh out of the oven with vanilla ice cream on the side-- Mmmmm! I may head back that way soon and see if it is as good as I remember).

600 pages? You don't lack for ambition.

Good luck- I just thought I'd drop by to see how things were coming
letchworth


----------

