# Solved: House repair/remodel projects



## Farmgirl22 (Jun 12, 2006)

OK, we're looking at this house that's going up for auction--it used to be what looked like an old schoolhouse or church that someone converted into a house. It's got these SUPER high ceilings (probably 20-25 feet high) that aren't particularly pretty(?) as far as "vaulted" ceilings go, but I think it would be awesome to put in like a "floor" up there (with a railing) and make it overlook half of the living area. I think it would make a particularly neat office area, and it would take up some of the massive wasted space in that house.

Is that sort of thing possible? How "un-Budget Friendly" is it probably going to be? Has anyone done anything like that? Did it work for you like you'd hoped?

Also, what about redoing electrical wiring in an entire house? Is that possible to DIY, or does a professional need to be called in? Is it pretty expensive? How long does it take either way?

Lastly, the kitchen in this house, while large enough....isn't exactly what I'd call "efficient". How hard is it to match new cabinets to "vintage" ones...ya know, like from the 20's where they all had those tacky handles and had thin flat wooden doors?? I'll look for a picture, but in the meantime if you just think about "grandma's kitchen" I'm pretty sure that it had those same cabinets. I don't mind the cabinets themselves, (just the hardware mostly) but there simply aren't ENOUGH cabinets, and I'd have to find some to put above appliances. Would they probably match if I just put new doors on maybe?? 

Thanks for your help, the answers you provide will help us determine whether or not we actually want to bid on the house or not.


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## Farmgirl22 (Jun 12, 2006)

Here's some similar cabinetry that I found online...blech!









The countertops in the house we are looking at aren't anywhere NEAR that nice--but as far as ugly cabinets go, this is pretty close. The handles are slightly different though.


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## hewee (Oct 26, 2001)

Looks like the cabinets at my dads. His home is a track home made about 1970. But the cabinets were all made at the site and not pre-made and then put in like they do today. They are just cabinet grade plywood. So the hard part will be finding the same type of wood with the same looking grain and getting it the same stain. 
I would take off a door and get more pictures of the grain and take to home centers, cabinet shops etc and ask around and tell them what you want to do and see if you can find the same looking wood, stain etc. Also find out just how it should be stain. Like if a sanding sealer goes on first etc. Sanding sealer make it so things stain more even.


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## buck52 (Mar 9, 2001)

Howdy Farmgirl22... 



Farmgirl22 said:


> OK, we're looking at this house that's going up for auction--it used to be what looked like an old schoolhouse or church that someone converted into a house. It's got these SUPER high ceilings (probably 20-25 feet high) that aren't particularly pretty(?) as far as "vaulted" ceilings go, but I think it would be awesome to put in like a "floor" up there (with a railing) and make it overlook half of the living area. I think it would make a particularly neat office area, and it would take up some of the massive wasted space in that house.
> 
> Is that sort of thing possible? How "un-Budget Friendly" is it probably going to be? Has anyone done anything like that? Did it work for you like you'd hoped?


Your idea about a loft type of area is a great idea and very doable but... lots of things to consider and be concerned about... How will it be supported? It is doubtfull that you could hang it from the roof...the roof construction is probably not such that it could carry the "live load" of a living space. You could support it from below with columns, but their placement could be in the way of the floor plan and would need to continued down to a footing in the cellar... very doable but fairly expensive and not easy for anyone but a pro or acomplished do it yourselfer



Farmgirl22 said:


> Also, what about redoing electrical wiring in an entire house? Is that possible to DIY, or does a professional need to be called in? Is it pretty expensive? How long does it take either way?


rewiring an entire house is nothing short of a nightmare unless the house is gutted and even then a daunting task...



Farmgirl22 said:


> what I'd call "efficient". How hard is it to match new cabinets to "vintage" ones...ya know, like from the 20's where they all had those tacky handles and had thin flat wooden doors?? I'll look for a picture, but in the meantime if you just think about "grandma's kitchen" I'm pretty sure that it had those same cabinets. I don't mind the cabinets themselves, (just the hardware mostly) but there simply aren't ENOUGH cabinets, and I'd have to find some to put above appliances. Would they probably match if I just put new doors on maybe??


The house I'm in now is vintage 1950 and had the same basic kitchen that the picture shows... You will never match the stain/patina of the existing cabinets. I made new razed panel doors and painted everything inside and out white...It made the space look and feel bigger and brighter.... inexpensive and a very worthwhile project...

Don't know where you are located but remember most of these projects with the exception of paint require inspection of the local authorities

buck


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## blues_harp28 (Jan 9, 2005)

In addition to the above.

Hi here in the UK many old church type building fall into the category called grade 1 listed building.
Meaning that no interior or exterior alteration can take place without Local Authority approval.
All alterations need to pass prior approval to keep the the property as much as possible in it's
original state.

Would be worth you checking if this property falls into that sort of category.

As for cost of installing a false floor in the loft space the floor would need to be supported from the
external brick walls with either RSJ [Roll Steel Joist] or very large timbers to carry the weight of the 
floor across the ground floor.

None of this comes cheap.
I was working on an old Chapel a few years back [Lead flashings to the roof] and the cost of a 
raised floor to cover half of the floor space came in at £12.000.
Floor space was approx 40ft x 20ft.
Raised floor was approx 40ft x 12ft.
Can you get local builder to give at least a verbal estimate of possible costs?


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## kiwiguy (Aug 17, 2003)

In most countries you will need planning permission and an engineers design report for structural work as described.


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## hewee (Oct 26, 2001)

Buck my dad cabinets look just like it and my day added more where the seting over was and where the riffer was because the riffer got put into another wall and the space now has a dishwasher and the added cabinets. He made the cabinets but don't know how hard he looked for the wood. The place where the over used to be he did first and that wood is not even close and the others he did was better but still no way the same wood or grain. Then the staining does not even come close. But also doing things like this is the way my dad is. Made my mom so mad too because he will just do it but the looks of it is well you know tacky.


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## Knotbored (Jun 5, 2004)

Lots of luck on your bidding for the building.
I wonder if you should consider it only temporary housing with few alterations but convert it for a future antique or botique store where the high ceilings would be a benefit instead of a problem.
Another thought is to lower the whole roof-I am serious-just chainsaw a 10 foot section the whole perimiter and use house jacks to lower the whole roof down onto a new sill directly under the existing rafters. Check the price with a house mover contractor-they do similar work and have all the equipment-maybe get a rough bid over the phone even.
Cabinets-hmmm-I lived with almost identical cabinets in a house built in '63. I liked them but wife thought they made the kitchen dark and gloomy. I suggest getting some trim (like picture frame) around the perimiter and paint them a light color-not bright white but a very light cream. You can find doors cheap at building products salvage stores to match the shape if you want to stay with the same doors-about $5 a door- and $10 a drawer.
Keep us informed how you make out with the bidding.


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## Farmgirl22 (Jun 12, 2006)

blues_harp28 said:


> In addition to the above.
> 
> Hi here in the UK many old church type building fall into the category called grade 1 listed building.
> Meaning that no interior or exterior alteration can take place without Local Authority approval.
> ...


Yikes!! Surely the local authorities don't care anymore--it's not a historical site or anything like that. We don't even know for sure what it was--no one seems to remember for sure, but they are pretty sure it was an old school or church. I'm leaning to school personally, but it could also have been a church with the way the walls are set at funky angles.



kiwiguy said:


> In most countries you will need planning permission and an engineers design report for structural work as described.


Sheesh....I didn't think this would really count as "structural work"....that sounds like it would be more expensive than we can afford to take on. 



Knotbored said:


> Lots of luck on your bidding for the building.
> I wonder if you should consider it only temporary housing with few alterations but convert it for a future antique or botique store where the high ceilings would be a benefit instead of a problem.
> Another thought is to lower the whole roof-I am serious-just chainsaw a 10 foot section the whole perimiter and use house jacks to lower the whole roof down onto a new sill directly under the existing rafters. Check the price with a house mover contractor-they do similar work and have all the equipment-maybe get a rough bid over the phone even.
> Cabinets-hmmm-I lived with almost identical cabinets in a house built in '63. I liked them but wife thought they made the kitchen dark and gloomy. I suggest getting some trim (like picture frame) around the perimiter and paint them a light color-not bright white but a very light cream. You can find doors cheap at building products salvage stores to match the shape if you want to stay with the same doors-about $5 a door- and $10 a drawer.
> Keep us informed how you make out with the bidding.


It wouldn't really make a good "store" being as it's in the country about 3 miles from town.

The cabinets are from the 20's or earlier--I know this for a fact. They are (or were) in a LOT of old farmhouses around here. I know that we had similar ones in our old farmhouse and they were from 1900--the old lady that owned it before us said that her parents put them in a couple of years before she was born. The picture was just a reference--they aren't exactly the same ones.


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## buck52 (Mar 9, 2001)

Farmgirl22 said:


> Sheesh....I didn't think this would really count as "structural work"....that sounds like it would be more expensive than we can afford to take on.


Not to sound rude but.... my guess is that it would be...

you did not seriously think adding a loft and rewiring an entire house would be considered cosmetic...

building codes... as they are called in the US... are in place and enforced to prevent people/homeowners from killing themselves or the next person to own the home

as a note... I am a licensed construction supervisor in the US and have seen injury and mayhem caused buy unsupervised and shoddy work...

Do It Yourself projects around the home are very rewarding but safety must always be at the top of the list... 

buck


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## JohnWill (Oct 19, 2002)

I"m at a loss as how rewiring the house counts as "structural" work. Do you really think you're holding up the house with the wires? Obviously adding a loft will easily fall into that category, since it's a load bearing floor.


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## buck52 (Mar 9, 2001)

JohnWill said:


> I"m at a loss as how rewiring the house counts as "structural" work. Do you really think you're holding up the house with the wires?


silly comment... did you realy think I was refering to the wiring as structual... you know as well as I that it's not structural but as important if not more so than the loft idea...


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## Farmgirl22 (Jun 12, 2006)

buck52 said:


> Not to sound rude but.... my guess is that it would be...
> 
> you did not seriously think adding a loft and rewiring an entire house would be considered cosmetic...
> 
> ...


No I didn't think they would be cosmetic, however, I didn't think of them as being "structural" enough to require a permit--that's what I meant. And in any instance that I've ever encountered the word "permit", it implies "bend over"...

I agree about the safety part--I'm not trying to get anyone hurt with this idea, obviously. I'm also anti-shoddy workmanship (that's why I won't buy new furniture....that glorified cardboard crap just doesn't work for me. I save my pennies and selectively purchase antique furniture which suits my taste better, and is going to last more than a few years.  ) and I would have someone who knew what they were doing working on it, but they wouldn't be "paid contractors". I have a few friends that do this sort of thing for a living--but if it's going to be a HUGE project I would feel bad asking them to do it, even though they'd do it in a heartbeat.


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## muppy03 (Jun 19, 2006)

Just a quick aside. If the work is not 'certified' or had its building code inspection (not sure what you call it in US) then it probably wont be covered by insurance if anything should go wrong or someone should get hurt down the track. Insurance co's will happily take your money but if a probem arises eg 12 months down the track they will find the loop hole to not pay out as it was not 'an approved structure'.


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## hewee (Oct 26, 2001)

Plus if you do thing yourself no matter what it is and don't have a permit and they find out they can make you take it all out and redo it so get someone that knows what they are doing.


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## Soundy (Feb 17, 2006)

Farmgirl22 said:


> No I didn't think they would be cosmetic, however, I didn't think of them as being "structural" enough to require a permit--that's what I meant. And in any instance that I've ever encountered the word "permit", it implies "bend over"...


The addition of a loft in itself wouldn't be a structural issue, but as has been noted, SUPPORTING that loft would necessarily have structural implications. You can't just put some posts from it down to the floor, for example, if there's nothing directly under that floor to support that (of course, if it's a solid concrete slab, there's no issue).

Permits MAY NOT be needed for the renovations you want to make, but as has also been noted, if they are, and you don't have them, it can lead to all manner of other issues down the road.

You should ideally get quotes from at least three reputable contractors for how they would make these changes, and what they would charge. Usually, you could then contact the city planning department with the level of changes you want to make, along with the contractors' suggestions of how they would do it, and ask if these will require permits. It's possible, if the changes aren't too extensive, no permits will be needed... but at least then you've covered your ***.


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## buck52 (Mar 9, 2001)

Soundy said:


> (of course, if it's a solid concrete slab, there's no issue).
> .


The footing required under any post, that is carrying a live load above, in most if not all cases would need to be much thicker than a standard slab pour


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## hewee (Oct 26, 2001)

buck52 said:


> The footing required under any post, that is carrying a live load above, in most if not all cases would need to be much thicker than a standard slab pour


Yep and be so thick and go down below the frost line and more if the load is more.


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## buck52 (Mar 9, 2001)

hewee said:


> Yep and be so thick and go down below the frost line and more if the load is more.


Hi hewee 

the frostline is not an issue if the post is inside the existing structure but the width and depth as well as the rebar required is important


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## hewee (Oct 26, 2001)

buck52 said:


> Hi hewee
> 
> the frostline is not an issue if the post is inside the existing structure but the width and depth as well as the rebar required is important


Still if it is just a slab now you can not just put anything on top of the same no matter what the width and depth or how much rebar there is.


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## buck52 (Mar 9, 2001)

Hi again Hewee 


you obviously didn't understand my post... read it again carefully...


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## blues_harp28 (Jan 9, 2005)

Hi guys here in the UK the minimum requirement would be to remove wooden or concrete flooring where the wooden? posts are to be installed.
And dig a hole at least 3-4 foot deep and 2-3 foot wide then fill with a concrete mix.
But that would depend on what lay underneath the existing wooden or concrete floor.
Not a cheap job and would no doubt require some sort of planning permission.


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## Soundy (Feb 17, 2006)

buck52 said:


> The footing required under any post, that is carrying a live load above, in most if not all cases would need to be much thicker than a standard slab pour


Ah, good point... but that too would depend on the design of the loft and the weight load. Another reason to get multiple quotes from multiple contractors, to determine that necessity.

Of course, if there are some existing load-bearing walls on a lower floor, perhaps the loft supports could be aligned with those...


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## buck52 (Mar 9, 2001)

Soundy said:


> Ah, good point... but that too would depend on the design of the loft and the weight load. Another reason to get multiple quotes from multiple contractors, to determine that necessity.
> 
> Of course, if there are some existing load-bearing walls on a lower floor, perhaps the loft supports could be aligned with those...


I agree... this thread was presented as a DIY project...
As I stated earlier it is very doable but there is much thought that needs to be put into it... no offense to farmgirl22 but the average Joe DIY'er would wakeup one morning with a loft on the floor below... and dispite JohnWill's silly coment about the wiring holding the house up it could very well burn to the ground before the loft collapses...


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## Soundy (Feb 17, 2006)

buck52 said:


> I agree... this thread was presented as a DIY project...
> As I stated earlier it is very doable but there is much thought that needs to be put into it... no offense to farmgirl22 but the average Joe DIY'er would wakeup one morning with a loft on the floor below... and dispite JohnWill's silly coment about the wiring holding the house up it could very well burn to the ground before the loft collapses...


True about the DIY aspect... and you're right, it may be a little beyond what your typical DIYer should be wading into. Not that BUILDING the thing is that difficult, but there are just too many other "safety concerns" that come into play with this sort of project.


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## Farmgirl22 (Jun 12, 2006)

buck52 said:


> I agree... this thread was presented as a DIY project...
> As I stated earlier it is very doable but there is much thought that needs to be put into it... no offense to farmgirl22 but the average Joe DIY'er would wakeup one morning with a loft on the floor below... and dispite JohnWill's silly coment about the wiring holding the house up it could very well burn to the ground before the loft collapses...


It's OK...it's not like it's a requirement to put in the loft--it was merely an idea that I had to help utilize some of that space. We aren't even set on buying the house, it was just something we were considering because we weren't finding any other houses in our price range.

We wouldn't actually BE the average DIY'er, because we would have professionals helping do it too--they would just be doing it as friends, NOT professionals (I merely asked you guys before I asked them about it). However, I actually had one of them (the one who does inspections) come through the house with us, and he said that he probably wouldn't even bother with the house--he said that if we wanted a money pit like that, we should buy a boat. 

So I guess the thread is solved....thanks everyone for your help.


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## Soundy (Feb 17, 2006)

Alright, glad that works out anyway  Happy house hunting!


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## JohnWill (Oct 19, 2002)

buck52 said:


> and dispite JohnWill's silly coment about the wiring holding the house up it could very well burn to the ground before the loft collapses...


I don't recall saying that you don't have to be careful or do the wiring properly, do you?


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## buck52 (Mar 9, 2001)

Just as I did not say the wiring was structural... 



JohnWill said:


> I"m at a loss as how rewiring the house counts as "structural" work. Do you really think you're holding up the house with the wires?


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## Farmgirl22 (Jun 12, 2006)

C'mon you two!! Let's play nice, I think this is simply a matter of misinterpretation...it's not worth splitting hairs over. Now let's shake hands and make up.  Unless ya'll are just joking around and this is normal for you two, in which case, carry on.  Hope you both had a happy Easter, I know that I did!! :up:


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## JohnWill (Oct 19, 2002)

Easter was fine, my grandson was here taking the house apart.


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## Farmgirl22 (Jun 12, 2006)

LOL! They are good at that for sure!!


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## buck52 (Mar 9, 2001)

I don't do easter but had a great day working in the yard...


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## Farmgirl22 (Jun 12, 2006)

That's cool too--sometimes I wish we didn't "do" Easter either....family gatherings can be soooooooo tedious.


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