# The Trump Thread



## Tabvla

There are two questions that Forum Members might like to think about and then give their view.

Q1. How many days will Trump serve as US President?
Q2. For what reason will his presidency be ended?

------------------------- Some info to help answer the questions -------------------------

Minimum number of days : 1 day
Maximum number of days : 2,922 days (8 x 365 + 2)

Possible reasons for presidency to be terminated (in Alphabetical order)

Completes both terms and therefore must leave office

Completes first term and does not get re-elected
Impeachment
Loses the support of the Republican Party
Resignation due to perceived threat of danger

Resignation due to personal issues

Scandals
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

T.

[Edited to reflect Littlefield's suggestion]


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## Johnny b

Too many volatile considerations for me to speculate.
Obama faced many and finished 2 terms.
Bush faced incredible odds of being tried as a war criminal, and finished 2 terms.
Clinton faced impeachment proceedings and finished 2 terms.

Nixon resigned teaching future politicians just how important it was to consider plausible deniability as a cover up.

Time will tell. 


John 


(edited to reflect Littlefield's concerns and my intent )


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## Littlefield

Maybe if they have Trump OCD. Also, probably not too good of an idea to talk about the first one on the internets.


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## Johnny b

Agree with that whole heartedly.


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## Phantom010

Well, maybe the answer is "none of those answers"...

Only 9 days as president and we're already heading toward World War III... 

Never thought the US of A would stoop that low... And some still wonder why so many people hate us so much...


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## Phantom010

Trump on Twitter:
_
"Our country needs strong borders and extreme vetting, NOW. Look what is happening all over Europe and, indeed, the world - a horrible mess!" _

Our country needs a president, not a clown. The only thing horribly messed up is his head, inside and outside...


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## Phantom010

But if we make it long enough before WWIII, an impeachment in the first year would be the logical outcome, IMO.


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## Tabvla

Two thumbs up for the comments made by Phantom010........right on the spot.

However, the REAL problem with Trump is not that he has been elected President.....

The REAL problem with President Trump is that he was able to bully the Republican Party to accept him as their candidate. If he had stood as an independent and had won the election..... then if that was the choice of the electorate in a free-and-fair election, then that is Democracy - it is not a perfect system.

But to have this person as the representative of the Republican Party will overshadow the party for many years to come. This is more than an embarrassment, it is a failure to uphold the trust of the electorate, a trust that is not only an American-thing but a trust that the entire world has in America. That trust has been violated.

T.


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## Phantom010

Americans, and especially Republicans, had plenty of time to see what they were getting into, but still... I get it why they did not vote for Hillary. Hell, I don't like her either. I was a Bernie supporter myself. How many voted for Trump only because he was head of the Republican party? The guy is an opportunist. He wasn't even a conservative! He chose that party because he knew it would be the only one who would get him elected. And too many voters will vote Republican no matter what (like women, for instance... go figure...) ... They'd vote for Putin if he came along! Not saying Dems are prefect though, as many chose to vote for Trump (and Hillary)... I believe both Trump and Clinton should have been disqualified from the start. The whole campaign was a joke!


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## 2twenty2

This link just about says it all


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## Phantom010

knucklehead said:


> This link just about says it all


Yeah, I think that pretty much sums it up!.


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## HamRman

Well here's my two cents worth. We should add a category to ALL ballots called none of the above. If "none of the above" gets the majority of votes there has to be a new election, and all previous candidates are not allowed to run. If we did it this way maybe the "parties" would have to start putting reasonable choices on the ballots.


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## Ent

HamRman said:


> Well here's my two cents worth. We should add a category to ALL ballots called none of the above. If "none of the above" gets the majority of votes there has to be a new election, and all previous candidates are not allowed to run. If we did it this way maybe the "parties" would have to start putting reasonable choices on the ballots.


Having a "none" vote is plausibly a good idea, but fundamentally it would have the same issue as third parties. The expectation would be that it would finish a distant third, which means that people who strongly object to A would still feel that only B has a plausible chance of stopping them. The best way out of this would be a voting system (such as IRV) that allows people to vote first for what they really believe, and then without penalty for a lesser of two evils backup answer.

Not that the US voting system is at all complicated enough as it is...


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## Johnny b

As long as a largely uneducated general voting populace responds more to emotionalism and polarization than critical thinking, few good choices will emerge, as demonstrated in this last election, a political race that wound up between two poor choices.
There were more than 2 parties on this last Presidential 'ticket' and none but the Reps and Dems had any mathematical significance.

A 'none of above' is an objection to the leading party candidates.
IMO, there is a lot of logic to a scenario where a 'noa' majority forces political parties to nominate more viable candidates.
Mathematically, even an IRV system could 'elect' a noa minority with a large enough plurality  ...... 

I chose not to vote the Presidential ticket.
( none of 'this' is my fault  )



Don't worry
be Happy.


John


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## Tabvla

HamRman said:


> Well here's my two cents worth. We should add a category to ALL ballots called none of the above. If "none of the above" gets the majority of votes there has to be a new election, and all previous candidates are not allowed to run. If we did it this way maybe the "parties" would have to start putting reasonable choices on the ballots.


How about yet another category.... "All of the above".

Could you imagine Trump and Hillary sharing the Oval Office.... Executive Orders requiring two signatures.... Invitations to visit other countries could be halved, first half Hillary (she got more votes), second half Trump; whatever agreements Hillary had made with the Brits or the Chinese or that Chubby guy who wants to nuke the world, Trump could nullify. And they could take it in turns who goes first.... next time after you.

Trump could build a wall and Hillary could knock it down. Hillary could issue everyone on the planet with a Green Card and Trump could make them wait forever in the immigration halls...... the ideas are endless. This is truly a brave new world.

Am I Einstein's great-great-grandchild or what..? This idea must be up their with Relativity... and that Quantum Stuff... and Big Bangs.... great-great-grandpapa would be proud of me....

T.


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## Drabdr

Johnny-be-Good said:


> As long as a largely uneducated general voting populace responds more to emotionalism and polarization than critical thinking, few good choices will emerge, as demonstrated in this last election, a political race that wound up between two poor choices.
> There were more than 2 parties on this last Presidential 'ticket' and none but the Reps and Dems had any mathematical significance.
> 
> A 'none of above' is an objection to the leading party candidates.
> IMO, there is a lot of logic to a scenario where a 'noa' majority forces political parties to nominate more viable candidates.
> Mathematically, even an IRV system could 'elect' a noa minority with a large enough plurality  ......
> 
> I chose not to vote the Presidential ticket.
> ( none of 'this' is my fault  )
> 
> Don't worry
> be Happy.
> 
> John


Good morning, John!

I believe it's critical that everyone vote. In 2016 roughly 1/2 (by the number I saw) of eligible voters didn't show up to vote. 1/2 the country did not let their voice be heard.

From this link:
http://www.businessinsider.com/trump-voter-turnout-records-history-obama-clinton-2016-11



> In 14 states, more people voted in the Senate races than voted for president. The overall results show that nearly 2.4 million people nationwide cast ballots but left the presidential line blank


That is deeply troubling to me.

For the November 2016 Presidential Election, I would say roughly 20% on each side were... "enthused" about each candidate. And IMO, the rest kind of held their nose so to speak and voted. I get that.

But I think every single person needs to vote for somebody; even if it's Libertarian/ Independent/ or whatever. Because.... when people don't vote, their opinion really is meaningless; their opinion really cannot be objectively measured. If there is a bus full of people and we need to vote where to go lunch. Out of 50 people, only 15 are raising their hands voting (even when I ask "something else"). However, if 20 hands go up on the "something else" option, I know we need to redo the choices. But without that 20 raising their hand, that tells me they are ambivalent and checked out; so they really don't care what choice the 15 make. So... no, I don't want to hear a peep out of the 35 that never raised their hand. 

If 20-30% consistently voted for an independent candidate, now... that means something. They're going to have to start to be taken seriously. Then... they can start to garner money and position.

Even between Clinton/ Trump, I would think even if people couldn't stand them as people (which is easy to do...  ) something about their platform ( scope of gov't; immigration reform; makeup of the SCOTUS; Foreign Policy; economic concerns; etc.) would influence individuals to pick one of them.


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## Drabdr

Tabvla said:


> How about yet another category.... "All of the above".
> 
> Could you imagine Trump and Hillary sharing the Oval Office.... Executive Orders requiring two signatures.... Invitations to visit other countries could be halved, first half Hillary (she got more votes), second half Trump; whatever agreements Hillary had made with the Brits or the Chinese or that Chubby guy who wants to nuke the world, Trump could nullify. And they could take it in turns who goes first.... next time after you.
> 
> Trump could build a wall and Hillary could knock it down. Hillary could issue everyone on the planet with a Green Card and Trump could make them wait forever in the immigration halls...... the ideas are endless. This is truly a brave new world.
> 
> Am I Einstein's great-great-grandchild or what..? This idea must be up their with Relativity... and that Quantum Stuff... and Big Bangs.... great-great-grandpapa would be proud of me....
> 
> T.


Ha!!

Kind of Old School election stuff, where the most popular/ second most popular person became POTUS and VP!!

Boy I bet there were some arguments to be remembered!! LOL!!

I saw a documentary that alluded to the idea that Roosevelt did not like Truman; and shared virtually nothing with him.


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## Johnny b

Good morning Dr 

Indeed.
With the possible exception of Cheney, most VP's went into the history books largely unknown unless/until elected as POTUS.

It was a bad idea in the 1800's and still is 
That's why the system gave it up.


John


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## Johnny b

Drabdr said:


> Good morning, John!
> 
> I believe it's critical that everyone vote. In 2016 roughly 1/2 (by the number I saw) of eligible voters didn't show up to vote. 1/2 the country did not let their voice be heard.
> .............................


I decided to vote my conscience in this last election.
Too many times I've chosen the lesser of two evils and regretted it even when choosing a loser.
If a party wants my vote, it has to be on a candidate suitable for the office even if I disagree on many positions.
I saw NO honesty in either the Dem or Rep candidates and the other two candidates were irrelevant.

The Dem was a dishonest leftwinger to the point of being a socialist and the Rep was/is a dishonest RINO opportunistic populist.

IMHO (of course) 

There's enough 'alternative facts' by both that make them look like political buffoons ( dangerous ).

The real danger is assuming there is a justification to make me choose either 'poison'.
This may be an extreme analogy, but consider it any way:
If the only choice you ( Brad ) had at the ballot box in a free election was between Hitler and Stalin, do you think someone has any reason or justification to argue that you ( Brad ) should make a choice between the two for the betterment of our nation and it's society?

I made a choice I can live with. 'None of the Above'.

John


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## Drabdr

Johnny-be-Good said:


> I decided to vote my conscience in this last election.
> Too many times I've chosen the lesser of two evils and regretted it even when choosing a loser.
> If a party wants my vote, it has to be on a candidate suitable for the office even if I disagree on many positions.
> I saw NO honesty in either the Dem or Rep candidates and the other two candidates were irrelevant.
> 
> The Dem was a dishonest leftwinger to the point of being a socialist and the Rep was/is a dishonest RINO opportunistic populist.
> 
> IMHO (of course)
> 
> There's enough 'alternative facts' by both that make them look like political buffoons ( dangerous ).
> 
> The real danger is assuming there is a justification to make me choose either 'poison'.
> This may be an extreme analogy, but consider it any way:
> If the only choice you ( Brad ) had at the ballot box in a free election was between Hitler and Stalin, do you think someone has any reason or justification to argue that you ( Brad ) should make a choice between the two for the betterment of our nation and it's society?
> 
> I made a choice I can live with. 'None of the Above'.
> 
> John


Much wisdom in there. ESPECIALLY about alternative facts.

So why not just vote Independent/ Libertarian and speak that way?


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## Drabdr

Forgot one thing, John....

I do like that you took the time to actually research things and formulate a reasonable response about voting....

People that just vote out of fear, or worse, total/complete ignorance about anything... bothers me.


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## Johnny b

Drabdr said:


> ........................
> 
> So why not just vote Independent/ Libertarian and speak that way?


Hi Brad 

LOL!
As I get older, idealism seems to have taken a backseat to pragmatism.

The 'Green' party is largely irrelevant because it hinders technology in a technological society.
I've taken a poor view to Libertarian-ism after reading Ron Paul's 'Liberty Defined' and his views on a democratic society.....while not an absolute for all Libertarians, is a strong voice within the movement. I do not agree with his favoritism of an intellectual autocracy which also exists in one of Trump's advisors.....Thiel ( see his position here:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peter_Thiel#Quotes )
Ironically, Theil, an advisor to Trump, is also a citizen of New Zealand.
Is this his escape route?  LOL!

Simply, IMO, you can't begin to be free if your destiny is chosen for you as an absolute.

As far as the TEA party, I see little constructive but much destructive as their position seems to eradicate government rather than correcting the over reaches of the past and streamlining for efficiency.

I went 'Independent' this election and chose 'no one' for President, but I did go to the poll and vote on other seats and issues.

John


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## Johnny b

Drabdr said:


> ..................
> 
> People that just vote out of fear, or worse, total/complete ignorance about anything... bothers me.


:up:

It bothers me too, Brad.

And when someone disagrees with me, I like to know why as it expands my view.

John


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## Tabvla

In a previous Post on this Thread I wrote.....

"......_The REAL problem with President Trump is that he was able to bully the Republican Party to accept him as their candidate._...."

This unfortunate chapter in history will always be a stain on the Republican Party. It matters not which political ideology you subscribe to, even if you have been a loyal Republican since you were eligible to vote, the fact that the Republican Party did not have the courage to stand up and say "*Not in our name*", will always haunt them for a long time to come.

T.


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## Drabdr

Tabvla said:


> In a previous Post on this Thread I wrote.....
> 
> "......_The REAL problem with President Trump is that he was able to bully the Republican Party to accept him as their candidate._...."
> 
> This unfortunate chapter in history will always be a stain on the Republican Party. It matters not which political ideology you subscribe to, even if you have been a loyal Republican since you were eligible to vote, the fact that the Republican Party did not have the courage to stand up and say "*Not in our name*", will always haunt them for a long time to come.
> 
> T.


Huh???

This makes no sense. He beat the socks off of every other republican in the primaries and beat Hillary. The Republican voters (that is the party) put him there.

The only "Republicans" who weren't happy were career politicians who wanted someone they could control.

But the people who put him there, are seeing a man get things done. We couldn't be happier.


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## Tabvla

Brad, it does make sense if you took the time to read the Post that I referred to (Post #8). In that Post I also wrote....

"......_If he_ (Trump) _had stood as an independent and had won the election..... then if that was the choice of the electorate in a free-and-fair election, then that is Democracy_....."

The issue is not about Trump winning the election. The issue is that he supposedly represents one of the two major parties - in this case the Republicans, but my comments would have been exactly the same had it been the Democrats.

Trump does not represent the political philosophy of the Republicans and therefore should never have been allowed to be their candidate. An independent - yes. Win the election as an independent - no problem. It is a disgrace and a stain on the image of the Republican party to have Trump as their flag-bearer.

T.


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## Drabdr

Tabvla said:


> Brad, it does make sense if you took the time to read the Post that I referred to (Post #8). In that Post I also wrote....
> 
> "......_If he_ (Trump) _had stood as an independent and had won the election..... then if that was the choice of the electorate in a free-and-fair election, then that is Democracy_....."
> 
> The issue is not about Trump winning the election. The issue is that he supposedly represents one of the two major parties - in this case the Republicans, but my comments would have been exactly the same had it been the Democrats.
> 
> Trump does not represent the political philosophy of the Republicans and therefore should never have been allowed to be their candidate. An independent - yes. Win the election as an independent - no problem. It is a disgrace and a stain on the image of the Republican party to have Trump as their flag-bearer.
> 
> T.


I see what you're getting at.
I think that's a fair analysis. Although, republicans in the primary resoundingly voted for him. I voted for Cruz.

He is a different bird. But it was the bird that one of the major parties wanted to go with.

The Dems could have picked Bernie, but rather chose Hillary.


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## Tabvla

Brad, you wrote.... "....._He is a different bird. But it was the bird that one of the major parties wanted to go with_.....".

I would like to rephrase what you wrote to reflect the way I interpreted the situation.

"......_the Republicans was the party that the different bird wanted to go with because he knew he would never be elected as an independent. The Republicans were so desperate to take the White House that they would have gone with Mickey Mouse if he had stood_....."

The stain on the integrity of the Republican party is that Donald Trump does not represent Republican values, neither in his personal life, his business life nor his now political life. If we cannot trust the major parties to endorse candidates that truly represent their stated (and very long-standing) values then who can we trust?

This is a serious question because it calls into doubt the one thing that one expects from the major political parties and that is - integrity. Never, until now, have I doubted the ability of either the Republicans or the Democrats to govern, but now there is an element of doubt in my mind, which is difficult to come to terms with.

T.


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## Drabdr

I can certainly respect that view on things.  I however, see it differently.

In my mind we would be no better off with Hillary.


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## Tabvla

Hillary who....??....I always thought that Mickey's partner was Minnie........

T.


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## Johnny b

Tabvla said:


> .....................
> 
> ................
> The issue is not about Trump winning the election. The issue is that he supposedly represents one of the two major parties - in this case the Republicans, but my comments would have been exactly the same had it been the Democrats.
> 
> Trump does not represent the political philosophy of the Republicans and therefore should never have been allowed to be their candidate. An independent - yes. Win the election as an independent - no problem. It is a disgrace and a stain on the image of the Republican party to have Trump as their flag-bearer.
> 
> T.


I see your point, however, there was nothing that could be done legally to prevent a onetime Liberal, Trump from running in the primaries as a populist. Nothing stops Libertarian Ron Paul from running as a Republican.

Same with the Dems. Sanders seems an unlikely Democrat, more of a communist, imo. But he was one of their options.

Our form of government is a republic and we the people decide who represents us.
Any blame about not conforming to party platforms goes directly to the deciders.

IMO, both parties have black eyes and history won't wave a patriotic flag for either (edit) for this time.

John.


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## Drabdr

Tabvla said:


> Brad, you wrote.... "....._He is a different bird. But it was the bird that one of the major parties wanted to go with_.....".
> 
> I would like to rephrase what you wrote to reflect the way I interpreted the situation.
> 
> "......_the Republicans was the party that the different bird wanted to go with because he knew he would never be elected as an independent. The Republicans were so desperate to take the White House that they would have gone with Mickey Mouse if he had stood_....."
> 
> The stain on the integrity of the Republican party is that Donald Trump does not represent Republican values, neither in his personal life, his business life nor his now political life. If we cannot trust the major parties to endorse candidates that truly represent their stated (and very long-standing) values then who can we trust?
> 
> This is a serious question because it calls into doubt the one thing that one expects from the major political parties and that is - integrity. Never, until now, have I doubted the ability of either the Republicans or the Democrats to govern, but now there is an element of doubt in my mind, which is difficult to come to terms with.
> 
> T.


I wanted to respond to this better, because you make some really good points here.

I've been following Trump for a few years now on Twitter. And I was noticing that he had a big following. A huge following. It didn't surprise me when he announced his office.

So when I thought he might have a chance, I started researching his stances and viewpoints. What I found was a guy who spent A LOT of his own money having strategists develop potential plans for healthcare, education, etc. While I didn't agree with everything 100%, I liked what I saw.

Like I stated, I didn't vote for him in the primaries. I voted for Cruz. However....by pretty large numbers, the Registered Republican voters in this country voted for Trump to be their candidate. They had several other really good candidates they could have picked; Carson and Rubio among them. But they chose Trump.

And yes...this is a contest, and the registered republicans did not want Hillary to win.

I had someone tell me one time that a preacher "can't" do both. They're either good in the pulpit and terrible at interpersonal skills; or a great people-person, and lackluster as a public speaker.  Trump has said some really stupid and gross things. However... being a student of Humans.. LOL, I happen to have on good knowledge that everybody has done the same. They just may not have got recorded doing it.  I do expect Trump to learn and adapt, and realize that it's not a Reality Show; but real life and he is a Leader. I don't want him to tame his fire; just be a little more Strategic in how he says things.

It's kind of hard (for me) to really state what is "republican"; or for that matter, what is "Democrat". What is the Democratic Party right now? Obama? Hillary? Schumer? Pelosi? 9th Circuit Court of Appeals? The National Platform? I'm sure there will be a leader rise in the party soon and the party then will begin to take the shape of that individual.

So on the Republicans, what is the party?? As the leader of the Party, Trump will (for better or worse) form what the party is about; and what it represents. Right now... I would like to see it be the party that tries to bring jobs back to America, and put people back to work. Others may not agree with that, and I'll respect that. But I do like Trumps vision; and for a while, will give him a chance.


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## Johnny b

Brad....Twitter?.......That is just so sad in soooo many ways


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## Johnny b

J/K


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## Drabdr

Johnny-be-Good said:


> Brad....Twitter?.......That is just so sad in soooo many ways


Well... I only have about 50 followers and stuff. I had to spice it up!  LOL!!

I'm not plugged into Twitter right now. There are some friends here I like to read and follow.


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## Johnny b

Hi Brad 

I never got into a social media site as a member. Some seem too vicious and I prefer a smaller setting.
Was at the Yahoo site. Got tired of the crazies like their 'chemtrail' insanity where the Kardasians and movie types were used as credible sources 


John


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## Drabdr

Johnny-be-Good said:


> Hi Brad
> 
> I never got into a social media site as a member. Some seem too vicious and I prefer a smaller setting.
> Was at the Yahoo site. Got tired of the crazies like their 'chemtrail' insanity where the Kardasians and movie types were used as credible sources
> 
> John


I like Facebook. I just try to stay away (as much as I can) from political discussions.

And yes... there is so much junk reporting out there. Trump (in my opinion) yells wolf a bit on Fake News; but on another turn, there is merit in his point. It's so incredibly difficult to find legitimate reports on anything.

Some of the larger news sources are the worst.


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## Johnny b

Drabdr said:


> .............
> 
> ...................
> 
> Some of the larger news sources are the worst.


I'll second that! :up:


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## Tabvla

Firstly, I would like to thank Brad for the well-thought-out and equally well-written Post #32....

But, if all other things are ignored there is one thing that disqualifies Trump from public office. Please be patient and open-minded while I explain.

I have two sons, both now independent adults. I hope that I guided them well on many things, but there is one thing that I always implanted into their beings and that was.....

"...._treat all woman with the same respect as you would expect others to treat your mother and if for some reason you find it difficult to do that with a particular woman then remove yourself from that woman's company, but do not treat her with disrespect_....."

Trump's attitude to woman is not the type of role-model that we want boys and young men to emulate.

Many young people today are in need of role-models. And when their parents, teachers and others with similar status give tacit approval to persons in leadership roles then we had best be sure that the personal characteristics of those persons are the characteristics of a role-model that we want our successors to follow.

T.


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## Drabdr

Tabvla said:


> Firstly, I would like to thank Brad for the well-thought-out and equally well-written Post #32....
> 
> But, if all other things are ignored there is one thing that disqualifies Trump from public office. Please be patient and open-minded while I explain.
> 
> I have two sons, both now independent adults. I hope that I guided them well on many things, but there is one thing that I always implanted into their beings and that was.....
> 
> "...._treat all woman with the same respect as you would expect others to treat your mother and if for some reason you find it difficult to do that with a particular woman then remove yourself from that woman's company, but do not treat her with disrespect_....."
> 
> Trump's attitude to woman is not the type of role-model that we want boys and young men to emulate.
> 
> Many young people today are in need of role-models. And when their parents, teachers and others with similar status give tacit approval to persons in leadership roles then we had best be sure that the personal characteristics of those persons are the characteristics of a role-model that we want our successors to follow.
> 
> T.


The things that Trump stated on video were disgusting and rude. I do not give him a pass on them. He apologized for it, said he is working on things, and I for one will be watching him closely to make sure he is working on things.

I hate to paint with a broad brush, and if I'm wrong, anyone can correct me.  But I think all of us have said and did things we should be ashamed of; and as such, I won't hold Trump to some higher level of morals on that.

To be intellectually fair, I also don't hold that on other candidates. Whether Obama's birth certificate was real or fake; whether he smoked weed or not; whether Bill inhaled or not; whatever Hillary did (or did not) do during Watergate hearings or whatever; what Hillary did (or did not do) 8 years before running for President; or even the women Bill chased around prior to taking office. People are human, and I am more concerned with their behaviors a few years before taking the office, and more importantly while they are in office.
********
I really like your points about role models, and is almost worthy (in my opinion) of its own discussion.

I myself have had a difficult time trying to present people (other than Christ in my religious beliefs) role models. There are some really good men and women in sports that would make good role models. However, they are behind the scenes, and you really don't hear anything about them. We just seem to hear about the loud mouths and troublemakers.


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## Johnny b

Tabvla said:


> .....................
> 
> But, if all other things are ignored there is one thing that disqualifies Trump from public office. Please be patient and open-minded while I explain.
> 
> I have two sons, both now independent adults. I hope that I guided them well on many things, but there is one thing that I always implanted into their beings and that was.....
> 
> ..........................
> 
> Trump's attitude to woman is not the type of role-model that we want boys and young men to emulate.
> 
> Many young people today are in need of role-models. And when their parents, teachers and others with similar status give tacit approval to persons in leadership roles then we had best be sure that the personal characteristics of those persons are the characteristics of a role-model that we want our successors to follow.
> 
> T.


Ethics and morality do define the character of leadership.
Obviously, Trump has little of either.
But if only men of the highest levels were to have been leaders of our society, I suspect the big wars we won would likely have been lost. Reality....it sometimes takes a leader to consider the morally unthinkable to defeat an enemy. His character comes to question in what limits he'll cross to protect that society with out harming it at the same time.
So, there is an issue of trust.

Do I trust Trump.....no.
Does that disqualify him?
No.
Many do trust him, however.
Only illegal implications and/or the vote count can/should 'disqualify' a candidate.

If morality was the only yard stick, I suspect most nations wouldn't have had leaders 

It's not a perfect world and never will be.

John


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## Marymoz

Tabvla said:


> Two thumbs up for the comments made by Phantom010........right on the spot.
> 
> However, the REAL problem with Trump is not that he has been elected President.....
> 
> The REAL problem with President Trump is that he was able to bully the Republican Party to accept him as their candidate. If he had stood as an independent and had won the election..... then if that was the choice of the electorate in a free-and-fair election, then that is Democracy - it is not a perfect system.
> 
> But to have this person as the representative of the Republican Party will overshadow the party for many years to come. This is more than an embarrassment, it is a failure to uphold the trust of the electorate, a trust that is not only an American-thing but a trust that the entire world has in America. That trust has been violated.
> 
> T.


I'm outside the US and it seems like people are blaming Trump for this and that when really he was put there - who put him there, that's the real question.


----------



## Drabdr

Hello Marymoz! Welcome to the forum!!



Marymoz said:


> I'm outside the US and it seems like people are blaming Trump for this and that when really he was put there - who put him there, that's the real question.


I am in no way arguing or debating anything... just clarifying.

When you say:


> like people are blaming Trump for *this *




What do you mean? People are blaming Trump for bullying the party, or the embarrassment, or all of it??


----------



## Tabvla

How much longer can this circus be endured...???

The best solution right now is for the Republican party to persuade Trump to resign "_for personal family undisclosed reasons_" and for Vice-President Mike Pence to become President.

That way the Republicans would retain control the White House for at least the next 4 years and possibly 8 years. I would also suggest that "President" Pence look to appointing a woman as his Vice-President. My choice would be the Republican Senator Susan Collins from Maine - very experienced, very popular and most importantly respected by both the Republican and Democrat parties.

A White House consisting of Mike Pence and Susan Collins is one that would restore respectability to these the two most important political appointments in the world.

T.


----------



## Johnny b

The 25 Amendment spells out succession.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Presidential_Succession_Act#Twenty-fifth_Amendment.



> Section 2 of the Twenty-fifth Amendment allows the President to nominate a new Vice President when the office of Vice President is vacant. The nominee becomes Vice President if confirmed by each house of the Congress.


So if Trump were out, it's Pence's choice with conformation by both Houses.

I'm doubtful Trump will leave on suggestions (  ) and I don't like the idea of overthrowing democratically elected governments with out legal cause.
I am suspicious of his Russian connections, so we'll just have to wait and watch to see how that shakes out.

John.


----------



## Brigham

My feelings are that this is an American issue, and although everyone has a right to their opinion, non Americans should mind their own business.


----------



## Tabvla

Brigham said:


> My feelings are that this is an American issue, and although everyone has a right to their opinion, non Americans should mind their own business.


The reality of the world order is that this is the President of the United States of America that we are talking about, not some tin-pot dictator in a country that you have never heard of. What he (or she) does affects all of us therefore all of us are entitled to express our concerns, citizens and non-citizens alike.

T.


----------



## Johnny b

No one minds their own business, these days 


Why worry
Be happy


John


----------



## poochee

Tabvla said:


> The reality of the world order is that this is the President of the United States of America that we are talking about, not some tin-pot dictator in a country that you have never heard of. What he (or she) does affects all of us therefore all of us are entitled to express our concerns, citizens and non-citizens alike.
> 
> T.


...


----------



## Brigham

When Obama came to Britain and threatened us with "back of the queue" I'm convinced that made a lot of undecided, exiteers. A similar sort of thing might happen if foreigners are too vociferous about Trump.


----------



## Tabvla

Perhaps its time to pull out the instruction booklet on.. "How to Impeach a President"...?

http://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/world...speech/ar-AAnKWZT?li=BBoPWjQ&ocid=mailsignout

T.


----------



## Guyzer

Brigham said:


> My feelings are that this is an American issue, and although everyone has a right to their opinion, non Americans should mind their own business.


If you think for one moment that what he does won't effect Canada you're sadly mistaken. Because of that we at least have a right to speak on anything that buffoon might offer up. Matter of fact the entire world has that right because he's a threat to all of humanity in one way or another. To think otherwise is foolish.


----------



## Tabvla

Guyzer said:


> If you think for one moment that what he does won't effect Canada you're sadly mistaken. Because of that we at least have a right to speak on anything that buffoon might offer up. Matter of fact the entire world has that right because he's a threat to all of humanity in one way or another. To think otherwise is foolish.




"...... Post #47..... _The reality of the world order is that this is the President of the United States of America that we are talking about, not some tin-pot dictator in a country that you have never heard of. What he (or she) does affects all of us therefore all of us are entitled to express our concerns, citizens and non-citizens alike_......."

T.


----------



## Wino

The US has elected a mad, angry lunatic of a man - it's that simple. He stands for nothing other than himself. He is corrupt, illiterate, crude and vile. This nation will rue the day he was elected. Guyzer has nailed it - the world is at risk.


----------



## Johnny b

Indeed, Wino.

Even more discouraging is that, while not a majority but a large chunk, of our society blindly follows him as if he can do no wrong and Congress is full of weak willed 'do nothing' sycophants only following party lines.

http://www.dictionary.com/browse/sycophant


----------



## Wino

Johnny-be-Good said:


> Indeed, Wino.
> 
> Even more discouraging is that, while not a majority but a large chunk, of our society blindly follows him as if he can do no wrong and Congress is full of weak willed 'do nothing' sycophants only following party lines.
> 
> http://www.dictionary.com/browse/sycophant


Yes, "orange nosing" is added to the vocabulary right after "brown". Sad.

Trump supporters follow:


----------



## Drabdr

Wino said:


> Yes, "orange nosing" is added to the vocabulary right after "brown". Sad.
> 
> Trump supporters follow:


Ok... I do have to hand it to you. That one's funny.


----------



## Tabvla

Posting that image in the same Thread as one discussing "Trump", might be considered by some to be an personal insult to Stanley Kubrick....

You could not imagine two men with more opposing intellects - the one a visionary of the great cosmos, the other a narcissistic egoist whose vision is no further than the nearest mirror.

T.


----------



## Johnny b

Don't forget the author, Arthur C Clark.
Neither Kubrick nor Clark could be accused of violating critical thinking


----------



## Wino

Both Clark & Kubrick are so far out of league with Turnip it is sacrilegious to mention him in the same sentence. My bad!!


----------



## Tabvla

Brigham said:


> My feelings are that this is an American issue, and although everyone has a right to their opinion, non Americans should mind their own business.


You will understand that I don't share your sentiments.

If your comment was directed at me (among others), then it may interest you to know that my wife and I lived for many years in the US. We worked hard, we payed our taxes, we contributed to the society through a few hours of volunteer work each week....... the fact that we chose to relocate to London is irrelevant.

We have family and many friends in the US and one day, when we are ready to retire, we might just buy a little place down in Florida and enjoy the sun, sea and sand. We want America to be led by a sane, balanced, non-bigoted person who we can respect as a role-model that others can aspire to follow.

It is our business.

T.


----------



## Guyzer

The whole situation just makes me want to walk up to a brick wall and bang my head against it
lots and lots and lots. And when I'm done bang it some more. How an individual Trump supporter...
no make that massive amounts of Trump supporters can be that foolish is beyond me. The man is like an Ever Ready battery. 
He just keeps on going and they keep banging their drum. 

I cringe when I say I have family in the USA that are citizens and they actually approve of him. At one time
they were pretty smart but I think they've been hanging around too many.... oh skip it.


----------



## Guyzer

Tabvla said:


> You will understand that I don't share your sentiments.


Um...... ( scratch... scratch... scratch... ) a Trump supporter will not understand. That's what got ya'll in so much trouble as it is.


----------



## Johnny b

Good morning Guyzer 

The US has always been a nation of extremes,
It's been leading us into failed wars that become more and more intense, foreign and domestic economic/social policies that swing like a pendulum and an educational base not only declining but about to be gutted.
In this scenario, add in emotionalism and mix with ignorance till you are witnessing the rise of a populist that promises everyone everything that bothers them but delivers only what benefits his personal agenda.

imo, everyone has the right to make comments. But only citizens have the right to change the system. And as you can see, that isn't working out well at all. Sooooo.....that's my comment.



> a Trump supporter will not understand.


Anything! They are blind believers in the same way as those that supported Bush and Obama.
Facts=alternative facts
Lies = truth
Tell a lie long enough and someone believes.

It's a brave new world


----------



## Tabvla

One can hope can one not....?

"._......Donald Trump's claims that Barack Obama ordered a wiretap of his phones during the presidential campaign could lead to the Republican being impeached, a leading US law professor has said. _

_Noah Feldman, a professor at Harvard Law School, said the unsubstantiated claims, if proved false, could be a "major scandal" that "could get the current president impeached"....._"

And if you have never heard of Feldman then how would you like this as a CV...

_Feldman grew up in Boston, Massachusetts, where he attended the Maimonides School.[1]_

_Feldman graduated from Harvard College in 1992 and earned a Rhodes Scholarship to the University of Oxford, where he earned a D.Phil in Islamic Thought in 1994. Upon his return from Oxford, he received his J.D., in 1997, from Yale Law School, where he was the book review editor of the Yale Law Journal. He later served as a law clerk for Associate Justice David Souter on the U.S. Supreme Court. In 2001, he joined the faculty of New York University Law School (NYU), leaving for Harvard in 2007. In 2008, he was appointed the Bemis Professor of International Law.[2]_

_Feldman is a senior adjunct fellow at the Council on Foreign Relations, a previous fellow at New America Foundation, and regularly contributes features and opinion pieces to The New York Times Magazine[3] and Bloomberg View columns.[4]_

_He is fluent in Hebrew, Arabic, and French, besides English.[5]_

T.


----------



## Wino

Johnny-be-Good said:


> ...................................................................*.Anything! They are blind believers in the same way as those that supported Bush and Obama.*
> Facts=alternative facts
> Lies = truth
> Tell a lie long enough and someone believes.
> 
> It's a brave new world


Au contraire my friend. I've never in my life fawned over a presidential candidate nor believed they could walk on water as supporters do the Orange Cheeto. I've voted against republicans because there is little they espouse that I give a flip about and the majority seem to hate everything and everyone. I'm not a single issue voter nor do I vote against my own self interest as the right seems to do repeatedly.

The right lost me completely about 2/3 rds way thru Clinton's first term during the era of Newt. Bush II was the nail in the coffin. Obama was a huge disappointment in that he did not push for single payer and instead settled on ACA, and the republicans were quite successful in quashing just about anything good he tried to do.


----------



## Johnny b

> Au contraire my friend.


lol! 
Feeling a little guilty over the past?
Bush------the compassionate conservative
Obama-----our savoir to bring 'change'
Trump-----wisdom and progress through 'the art of the deal'
What a load.......
But,
I too have made mistakes
but learned with experience not to drink the kool-aid. 

My worst was voting for Reagan the first time around.
Did vote for Clinton both times ( meh )
Opposed Bush
Opposed Obama
Skipped the ticked this time, done voting for lesser of 2 evils when all they seem to be are different shades of doom.

John.


----------



## Tabvla

Trump is an avid user of "Twitter".

The Merriam-Webster dictionary gives the following definition for "_*twit*_".

"...._ *a silly annoying person, a foo*l_.....".

Is it just coincidental or is there an underlying self-fulfilling prophesy in this...

T.


----------



## Guyzer

Why is it that so many US voters say something along the lines of...

My daddy was a Republican / Democrat. My grand daddy was a Republican / Democrat. 
The rest of my family are Republicans / Democrats so I'm going to be a Republican / Democrat. I've done that
all my life and there's no way I'd ever vote Republican / Democrat. 
You'd think as a voter they could vote for the outfit that on the surface sounds like it will do the most 
for you instead of following along blindly just because that's the way it's always been done. 

Canadian voters as a rule don't do that. I've switched my party vote I don't know how many times
not that it's done me any good.


----------



## Wino

I use to vote for the best qualified candidate (in my estimation) until I realized I had absolutely so little in common with the right or republican party I would be voting against my own self interest. I think I posted the following here at one time or another:

"I live in a political "purgatory" of sorts - not conservative enough for radical right nor liberal enough for the far left. On the one hand, there isn't a republican alive today that I would consider voting for to any office. When you balance things left and right, I'm a moderate independent in my eyes.

I support the 2nd, but believe in controls and conditions.
I'm anti abortion, but believe it should be a woman's decision or choice - not law nor man's.
I'm for the death penalty in most circumstance - only when there is no doubt in guilt.
I'm anti union, but believe they should and need to exist.
I do not mind paying taxes - small price to pay to live here.
I believe most of Wall St. should be in prison - not holding my breath.
I believe most of the GWB administration should be in prison for war crimes - yet don't care how they plied info from the enemy - shouldn't have been caught.
I have no patience for the likes of Rancher Bundy or anyone that steps outside the norms - felt the same way in the 'past about the SDS, SLA, Black Panthers - any group or individual that threatens violence to get their way - nuke 'em. Waco should have lasted about 72 hours max rather than 53 days.
I believe we should have single payer health insurance - or Medicare for all. Was disappointed in the ACA, but better than nothing.
I believe the Roberts court is at the top of the list of being the worst thing that has happened to this country in a 100 years - don't look forward in refighting past wrongs.
I bough grapes when Cesar Chavez said not to - I hate boycotts."

About the only thing that has changed is that Roberts SCOTUS is now second to Turnip!


----------



## Johnny b

Wino......if I ever get to Texas, first rounds on me


----------



## Tabvla

T.


----------



## Drabdr

Wino said:


> I use to vote for the best qualified candidate (in my estimation) until I realized I had absolutely so little in common with the right or republican party I would be voting against my own self interest. I think I posted the following here at one time or another:
> 
> "I live in a political "purgatory" of sorts - not conservative enough for radical right nor liberal enough for the far left. On the one hand, there isn't a republican alive today that I would consider voting for to any office. When you balance things left and right, I'm a moderate independent in my eyes.
> 
> I support the 2nd, but believe in controls and conditions.
> I'm anti abortion, but believe it should be a woman's decision or choice - not law nor man's.
> I'm for the death penalty in most circumstance - only when there is no doubt in guilt.
> I'm anti union, but believe they should and need to exist.
> I do not mind paying taxes - small price to pay to live here.
> I believe most of Wall St. should be in prison - not holding my breath.
> I believe most of the GWB administration should be in prison for war crimes - yet don't care how they plied info from the enemy - shouldn't have been caught.
> I have no patience for the likes of Rancher Bundy or anyone that steps outside the norms - felt the same way in the 'past about the SDS, SLA, Black Panthers - any group or individual that threatens violence to get their way - nuke 'em. Waco should have lasted about 72 hours max rather than 53 days.
> I believe we should have single payer health insurance - or Medicare for all. Was disappointed in the ACA, but better than nothing.
> I believe the Roberts court is at the top of the list of being the worst thing that has happened to this country in a 100 years - don't look forward in refighting past wrongs.
> I bough grapes when Cesar Chavez said not to - I hate boycotts."
> 
> About the only thing that has changed is that Roberts SCOTUS is now second to Turnip!


That's kind of surprising... you and I would align in a large part at least on some of the first few points. We're exactly in line on the union thing. We veer apart pretty heavily about most everything after the letters GWB!!


Wino, I have a lot of respect for you. We don't agree on many things, but you have always brought critical, original thought here on political issues. 

If I could just get you over in the football/baseball threads and wax philosophic there....


----------



## Wino

Tony Romo is the Trump of football - dazed, confused, damaged goods and a choker. Both look good on paper but are nothing other than empty shells of humanity. Hopefully, it doesn't take the USA as long as the Cowboys to dump Romo to dump Turnip. How's that?? Not too snarky?

Brad, I respect everyone, even those unfortunates that don't believe, or partially believe, as I do. So you're in. I still miss the days of rousingly raucous debate of the past here, but that's life.

As for baseball, I'd rather watch grass grow (actually that goes for most sports today with exception of women's beach volleyball!).


----------



## Drabdr

I do miss the days with skivvy, Mulder, Bill, Derek, and Stoner. This thread would be totally different if we had a few more enlightened conservatives!


----------



## Tabvla

Drabdr said:


> I do miss the days with skivvy, Mulder, Bill, Derek, and Stoner. This thread would be totally different if we had a few more enlightened conservatives!


True..... but back then neither did we have woman's beach volleyball.....

If Wino makes it to the White House I am definitely moving back to Florida.

T.


----------



## Wino

"Enlightened conservative" is an oxymoron if ever they was one.


----------



## Tabvla

This Thread started way back at Post #1 with the question "_How many days will Trump serve as US President?_"

As no one has as yet answered that question I suppose it is only right that I venture an answer.... I am suggesting that he will leave office before the first 100 days, which means that it is possible that Mike Pence may be President by April 29.

T.


----------



## poochee

I hope so!


----------



## Tabvla

Keep up the good work Donald..... impeachment is just around the corner.... (with apologies to a duck with the same name).

"........_The United States has made an official apology to Britain for bizarre claims Barack Obama may have used UK spies at GCHQ to listen to Donald Trump's calls. White House Press Secretary Sean Spicer has personally apologized after he repeated the claim in an official briefing, triggering a major diplomatic incident._

_It prompted a rare and furious response from GCHQ, which is Britain's high-tech global listening post that monitors communications around the world. _

_Intelligence sources said both Mr Spicer and General McMaster, the US National Security Adviser, have now apologised over the claims. Britain's ambassador to the United States Sir Kim Darroch spoke directly to Mr Spicer about the incident_......."

T.


----------



## Wino

We're being led by dumb and dumber and stupid.


----------



## Tabvla

Wino said:


> We're being led by dumb and dumber and stupid.


And can you believe that in the press conference with Angela Merkel today, Trump put the blame for the entire incident on Andrew Napolitano and Fox News..... the mind boggles.

I really hope that they did not give him the actual nuclear codes...... help us all if they did.

T.


----------



## poochee

Wino said:


> We're being led by dumb and dumber and stupid.


Yep!!


----------



## Tabvla

Is it true that tens-of-thousands of parents who called their little one "Donald" have filed for a name change...?

No, probably not, but Fake News is all the rage these days so thought that I would contribute my little share.....

T.


----------



## Tabvla

On March 18 Trump tweeted the following....

"_Despite what you have heard from the FAKE NEWS, I had a GREAT meeting with German Chancellor Angela Merkel. Nevertheless, Germany owes vast sums of money to NATO & the United States must be paid more for the powerful, and very expensive, defense it provides to Germany_!"

Wrong again Donald....... (is this moron ever going to get anything right?)

The NATO countries don't pay each other or owe NATO money. Each partner in the NATO alliance decides for themselves the level of funding that they want to contribute to the alliance. That is both a political and financial decision that is the sole remit of each country - it is not a demand by other partners nor even a dictate of NATO itself.

If the US Administration is of the opinion that the US contribution to NATO is disproportionately high then there is nothing stopping Congress from reducing the US contribution.

But none of the 28 NATO countries go around demanding that one of the other countries "owes them money".

Donald, you are an embarrassment to the intelligence of the American people.

T.


----------



## poochee

Tabvla said:


> Donald, you are an embarrassment to the intelligence of the American people.
> 
> T.


Yep!


----------



## Tabvla

Update.....

"......._FBI Director James Comey stated unequivocally that he has 'no information' to back up President Trump's claim that President Obama wiretapped Trump Tower. Rep. Adam Schiff (D-Calif.), the top Democrat on the House Intelligence Committee, questioned Comey at a blockbuster public hearing Monday morning, asking whether Trump's tweet alleging that he had his phone tapped was a 'true statement.'_

_Schiff read the entirety of the quote from Trump's tweet, including Trump's claim that 'this is McCarthyism.'_

_'Director Comey, was the president's statement that Obama had his wires tapped in Trump Tower a true statement?' Schiff asked the FBI director. 'With respect to the president's tweets about alleged wiretapping directed at him by the prior administration, I have no information that supports those tweets,' he said._

_Comey went further, stating that the Justice Department had asked him to share that the answer is the same for DOJ and 'all its components,' he said. The Department also 'has no information that supports those tweets.'_

_Comey also took the unusual step of confirming the existence of a counterintelligence investigation at the House hearing on Russia meddling in the 2016 election. He said the FBI is looking at possible links and coordination between President Donald Trump's 2016 campaign and the Russians. The investigation includes an assessment of potential crimes that were committed. _

_Because the investigation is ongoing, and it deals with classified information, Comey said he could not share additional details about who the target of the probe is and what conduct is under scrutiny in a public setting._

_'I know that is extremely frustrating to some folks, but it is the way it has to be,' he said_......"

Impeachment must surely now be almost inevitable....?

T.


----------



## steppenwolf

Completes both terms and therefore must leave office

why about trump? -ask about corrupt democrats in congress


----------



## Johnny b

steppenwolf said:


> Completes both terms and therefore must leave office
> 
> why about trump? -ask about corrupt democrats in congress


Why about Trump? He's the President and many people, Republicans too, are concerned about his Russian connections.......and his mental health.

Why not Democrats? They aren't in power. The focus is on who is running our country.

John.


----------



## Tabvla

steppenwolf said:


> Completes both terms and therefore must leave office
> 
> why about trump? -ask about corrupt democrats in congress


I am surprised that you ask this question, I thought that the reason would have been obvious. Therefore my apologies if I did not pose the question in a manner that was clear.

The question is about Trump because he is currently the President of the US, which, as an American, you will know is the most powerful political appointment on earth. The question has nothing to do with which of the two major parties he supposedly represents. And for anyone who has followed the path that he traveled from NY businessman to the Republican candidate will know that a very large contingent of experienced and respected Republicans were against him being the Republican candidate. And are still vociferously against him being President.

The question would have been identical had he supposedly represented the Democrats or any other party. The question is about the madness that gripped a certain segment of the American electorate and the capitulation of the Republican party which has resulted in a totally incompetent individual degrading the sanctuary of the Oval Office.

Hopefully the above answers your question, if not I am willing to explain further.

T.


----------



## Tabvla

http://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/world...waters/ar-BByzTTd?li=BBoPWjQ&ocid=mailsignout

And if you think that this is a "Democrat thing", then think again because the highly respected Republican Senator, John McCain, has intimated exactly the same sentiments.

T.


----------



## Littlefield

Tabvla said:


> http://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/world...waters/ar-BByzTTd?li=BBoPWjQ&ocid=mailsignout
> 
> And if you think that this is a "Democrat thing", then think again because the highly respected Republican Senator, John McCain, has intimated exactly the same sentiments.
> 
> T.


You are delusional if you really think a Rep Congress will impeach Trump. Lol


----------



## steppenwolf

3 branches of government and youre obsessed with one

he just got in-give him a chance!


----------



## steppenwolf

if you cant see the good trump has done ,you cant be helped


----------



## steppenwolf

hurray for Russia fighting isis and who cares about senile senator McCain who supports dumb sryian rebels


----------



## steppenwolf

ten senate seats up for grabs in trump won states -well see how that goes in 2018 in 20 months


----------



## Johnny b

Littlefield said:


> You are delusional if you really think a Rep Congress will impeach Trump. Lol


Depends what the Russian investigations expose.


----------



## Johnny b

steppenwolf said:


> hurray for Russia fighting isis .......................


Thanks for stating your patriotism,.......to a foreign nation lead by an x-member of the KGB.
Not many US citizens would do that.


----------



## Johnny b

steppenwolf said:


> if you cant see the good trump has done ,you cant be helped


How about posting that list?


----------



## ekim68

Littlefield said:


> You are delusional if you really think a Rep Congress will impeach Trump. Lol


You said before that we would never have a Black President if my memory is correct.....


----------



## Littlefield

Anybody is in the Land of the Borogoves thinking seriously Trump will be impeached by a Rep Congress. Lol


----------



## Littlefield

Ekim, said over a Clinton and Hillary blew it just like she did with Trump. Lol


----------



## Johnny b

Littlefield said:


> Anybody is in the Land of the Borogoves thinking seriously Trump will be impeached by a Rep Congress. Lol


Again, it depends what the investigation finds about any collusion between Trump and the Russians concerning the election.
If nothing, Trump deserves an apology, if guilty I expect to read of a lot more whiney jibber jabber from the alt-right mixed in with lunatic rantings he was framed.
But guilty, I do expect he'll resign or legally be removed from office. It would be a stain, otherwise, that the Republican Party would hardly survive.


----------



## Littlefield

You be sure to post when it happens. The FBI have been investigating since July. If they had anything I am pretty sure it would have came out during the election.


----------



## Johnny b

Littlefield said:


> You be sure to post when it happens. The FBI have been investigating since July. If they had anything I am pretty sure it would have came out during the election.


Please, don't insult me with alternative facts 

No, I wouldn't rub it in your face, but I would smile at the incredible lack of thought given to who Trump actually is....before the primaries.

Why anyone accepts Trump as a Rep is beyond me.
He used to be a phony liberal. Now he's a phony conservative.
He's always been an opportunistic populist that says what ever he thinks the crowds want to hear.

And a successful businessman?
He's played a game of risky investments on a grand scale. Empire building with massive business deductions for tax write downs and bankruptcies to manage debt.
That's hardly a fiscally conservative position and mostly manipulation for self interest that doesn't translate into healthy national economic policies. Do the numbskulls that voted for Trump actually believe the US can bankrupt itself into wealth?
His budget plans seem to be, cut as many social, educational and scientific programs as possible while spending the difference on military and then...taxing the middle class with punitive tariffs on imports that come out of the consumer's budget while massive income tax write downs for the wealthy.
All the reports I've read lead to greater deficits and insanely greater Federal debt. 
As if enough damage hasn't already been done.

Time for some more alternative fact rebuts....fire away 
( the wishing light is on )


----------



## Johnny b

steppenwolf said:


> if you cant see the good trump has done ,you cant be helped


Having trouble with that list?

Let me get you started.

1.Trump aids the legal profession.

https://www.google.com/search?sclie...G=Search&q=trump+lawsuits+since+taking+office

Dated Feb 3, 2017
http://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/trump-named-more-50-lawsuits-inauguration-n716191


> Since being sworn in Jan. 20, Trump has been named in 52 federal cases in 17 different states, according to the Administrative Office of the United States Courts. Comparatively, Barack Obama was named in three and George W. Bush and Bill Clinton were each named in four cases between Jan. 20 and Feb. 1.


----------



## Johnny b

steppenwolf said:


> if you cant see the good trump has done ,you cant be helped


#2 on the list:

Trump cares about health care coverage and it's costs.

http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/...would-cost-more-not-expand-coverage/99553348/


> Changes made Monday to the Republican health care bill would add billions of dollars to the bill's cost without increasing the number of people who would have insurance or reducing premiums, according to the nonpartisan Congressional Budget Office.


http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/...acare-repeal-bill-vote-negotiations/99527734/


> President Trump called for a vote on the Republican plan to repeal and replace Obamacare - even if it doesn't pass - and Speaker Paul Ryan, R-Wis., complied, scheduling a Friday vote on a bill that may not have enough Republican support to pass.


----------



## Johnny b

Littlefield said:


> You are delusional if you really think a Rep Congress will impeach Trump. Lol


Looks like there is a lot of conflict in the Rep party.
http://www.daytondailynews.com/news...lays-health-care-vote/veczwXHMxQbnN6xzPVJoNK/



> Despite a full-court press from President Donald Trump and heavy pressure from GOP leadership, a conservative group of House Republicans Thursday effectively delayed a vote aimed at overhauling the nation's health care system.
> 
> In response, Trump threw down the gauntlet in what one Republican called a game of "high stakes poker": Vote Friday or he'd leave Obamacare in place.


Trump---------->Leave Obamacare in place?



Guess I'd better start stocking up on popcorn.
Looks like anything is possible.


----------



## Johnny b

steppenwolf said:


> if you cant see the good trump has done ,you cant be helped


#3 on that list could be modesty.

http://www.cnn.com/2017/03/23/politics/trump-time-interview-wiretaps-falsehoods/index.html



> President Donald Trump defended some of the most controversial claims of his young political career in a wide-ranging interview with Time magazine published Thursday, in which he offered a simple and absolute defense of his method:
> "I'm a very instinctual person, but my instinct turns out to be right. Hey, look, in the meantime, I guess I can't be doing so badly, because I'm President, and you're not," he told Time's Washington bureau chief, Michael Scherer.


LOL!


----------



## Johnny b

steppenwolf said:


> if you cant see the good trump has done ,you cant be helped


Same link as above:
http://www.cnn.com/2017/03/23/politics/trump-time-interview-wiretaps-falsehoods/index.html

#4 An incredible grasp of context and sophistry



> Trump was unrepentant about his charge that former President Barack Obama "wiretapped" his phones at Trump Tower during the 2016 election -- an allegation soundly refuted by FBI Director James Comey in testimony before the House Intelligence Committee earlier this week. Trump defended the claim by shifting its focus.
> "When I said wiretapping, it was in quotes. Because a wiretapping is, you know, today it is different than wire tapping. It is just a good description. But wiretapping was in quotes. What I'm talking about is surveillance," Trump told Time.


----------



## Tabvla

Littlefield said:


> You are delusional if you really think a Rep Congress will impeach Trump. Lol


Those in the Republican Party who believe that Trump is a credible and legitimate representative of the Party - it is they who are _delusional_. And I sincerely believe that only a very small number of Republicans, in both the House and the Senate, would actually use the words "credible" and "legitimate" in the same sentence as the word "Trump".

These words are mutually exclusive.

T.


----------



## Tabvla

Has anyone else noticed something really disturbing..... Those who gather in the rear behind Trump in the Oval Office are increasingly starting to look and behave like those who gather in the rear behind Kim Jong-un on his various photo-shoots.

You don't believe me? Well just watch the videos. 

T.


----------



## Littlefield

You really have Trump OCD. Lol


----------



## Wino

Littlefield said:


> You really have Trump OCD. Lol


C'mon, Littlefield, Turnip is gonna make Shrub look like a neophyte when it comes to being a bumbling idiot!

So how are things going in the Carolina's these days. Any voter remorse yet??


----------



## Tabvla

Littlefield said:


> You really have Trump OCD. Lol


This Thread is not about me, it is about the current incumbent of the Oval Office.

T.


----------



## Johnny b

Tabvla said:


> This Thread is not about me, it is about the current incumbent of the Oval Office.
> 
> T.


Just pointing out a spelling error.

It's spelled i n c o m p e t a n t.......not 'incumbent'



John


----------



## storage_man

Jonny-be-good acts like one of those snowflakes that are so disappointed that Hilary Lost and just can't get over it. Trump is going to make America Great again with or with out you !


----------



## Johnny b

storage_man said:


> Jonny-be-good acts like one of those snowflakes that are so disappointed that Hilary Lost and just can't get over it. Trump is going to make America Great again with or with out you !


Storage man is ignorant and needs to further read my positions on the last election.

You've just witnessed the fracturing of the Republican party.
How deep it goes and for how long is going to be interesting.

Moderates rebelled because Trump had nothing to offer positively in replacing Obamacare, the rino wild-eyed anarchistic Tea Party faction rebelled because Trump's position wasn't draconian enough......and the Democrats sat back laughing their socialist arses off while the Libertarian dreams of Ron Paul's 'Intellectual Autocracy ( that is what most people recognize as a dictatorship) ' get flushed along with Trumpcare..

Trump is incompetent on top of being a known high stakes grifter.
The stock market is reacting negatively because it's looking like Trump's tax plans are not assured ....because of the current schism in the Rep party.

You are delusional and just as much a fool as those that supported Obama, believing his rhetoric about 'Change' with out defining it before being elected.

You are a 'Trump groupie' 

As far as Clinton goes, she's a loser by her own doing, imo. And I certainly didn't vote for her 

John


----------



## Johnny b

storage_man said:


> .......................... Trump is going to make America Great again with or with out you !


I forgot to mention....I've already got mine and your future isn't looking very good


----------



## Couriant

I did not vote... actually I can't vote... but honestly there was no real good candidate for president; I feel that Trump is infinitely worse than the others and the next 3 years 10 months will show that... or even less if he somehow gets impeached.


----------



## storage_man

Johnny-be-Good said:


> I forgot to mention....I've already got mine and your future isn't looking very good


My future is just fine, but if you really think Trump fractured the Republican Party, where have you been for over 20 years. Its been broken for a long time, and has not represented any conservative values or the values of 90% of real Americans in that time. The Republican party died during this period. They thing they ever did was to give us re-treaded candidates for every office. When you hear #Nevertrumpers/Uni-Party members , state that they would rather vote for HRC than vote for Trump, they certainly were NOT and NEVER HAVE BEEN Republicans. A prime example is what happened last week with the RYANCARE bill. When only 17% of the polled Americans believe that the bill will fix what it was set out to be, that is pathetic. I don't give a S***T about the Republican/Uniparty, because they still are not recognizing that America is Pissed and will not take it anymore from them !


----------



## Johnny b

storage_man said:


> My future is just fine, but if you really think Trump fractured the Republican Party, where have you been for over 20 years. Its been broken for a long time, and has not represented any conservative values or the values of 90% of real Americans in that time. The Republican party died during this period. They thing they ever did was to give us re-treaded candidates for every office. When you hear #Nevertrumpers/Uni-Party members , state that they would rather vote for HRC than vote for Trump, they certainly were NOT and NEVER HAVE BEEN Republicans. A prime example is what happened last week with the RYANCARE bill. When only 17% of the polled Americans believe that the bill will fix what it was set out to be, that is pathetic. I don't give a S***T about the Republican/Uniparty, because they still are not recognizing that America is Pissed and will not take it anymore from them !


You are 73 years old from your bio.
Being in IT, likely on a pension from a company at best, stuck on SS at the least.



> but if you really think Trump fractured the Republican Party, where have you been for over 20 years.


Watching the party I am a registered member of deteriorate to the point that a Republican President with a majority in both houses of congress can't even get a vote on legislation that been in the works since Obama rammed it through a Democrat Congress.
No other President in recent times has had such an advantage and told to go shove it by his own party. 
Odds are the great recession did you no good, more likely a world of hurt.
I would not want to be in your position.

Being a retired businessman, I was aware of the coming 'hard times' and planned for it.
I survived decades of stupid/corrupt leaders. Hopefully, this is the zenith of such poor choices, but I do expect a leftwing/socialist backlash in the near future.



> The Republican party died during this period.


I'll give you credit for realizing that the Republican party is now so radically diverse, it's lost it's goals, from the growing strength's within bythe Tea Party and Libertarians ( many of whom are really neo-cons in hiding)....and not much more.



> They thing they ever did was to give us re-treaded candidates for every office.


That's just worn out Trumpster rhetoric.
Some are, some aren't.
The Dems have had an ever increasing support of socialism.
But this last primary, the Rep party had a field of quality mainstream Republicans, asside from, Trump, lying Ted, crazy Ben.
Trump bullied and pushed all the right buttons for attention and the voters never gave much thought to what the man was like, his moral and ethical codes. They wanted change, just like Obama argued for. "Change' with out any thought as to what that meant to Trump.



> When you hear #Nevertrumpers/Uni-Party members , state that they would rather vote for HRC than vote for Trump, they certainly were NOT and NEVER HAVE BEEN Republicans.


You seem to be loosing control of your thoughts.
You are trying to claim an absolute that isn't.
Myself, I didn't vote for Trump or Clinton. Neither was worthy of the position and the other two parties were irrelevant. But I did go and vote in the Reps in my Ohio district.
And I intend to stay a registered Republican so I can vote against him in the next Primary 



> When only 17% of the polled Americans believe that the bill will fix what it was set out to be, that is pathetic.


Maybe you ought to read more 'news', especially what the CBO had to say about it 



> I don't give a S***T about the Republican/Uniparty, !


I believe you. You are a supporter of an opportunist populist with a bad history of ethics and morality. Was once a liberal to the masses and now a conservative(?) to the masses that want to hear only goodness and light rather than reality, no matter the consequences. Supporting Trump, you're arguing to further dumb down education ( which is a means of control) and kill off the sciences in what is a high tech society dependent upon a strong educational base to further it's economic survival in a competitive world. 
You and other Trumpsters simply do not think ahead on what your actions do in the future.

Example....many tech sites are discussing the impact of robotics and AI on future employment. Estimates are at about 38% of the job force is at risk in the next 20 years....and the morons for Trump want to kill off educational support.
No one that I'm aware of in either party is addressing this growing problem.



> because they still are not recognizing that America is Pissed and will not take it anymore from them !


You have been losing credibility the more you post, but that really tops it.
Have you bothered to read what public opinion is of Trump?
Historic lows.

Get educated


----------



## Johnny b

Be interesting to see how Trump's approval rating fares after the public reads this:

http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/...es-russian-mobsters-organized-crime/98321252/


----------



## Tabvla

storage_man said:


> ....... Trump is going to make America Great again ! .......


That is probably one of the most disturbing sentences in this Thread.

Storage_Man, you are obviously intelligent. I say that because I have read many of your technical Posts on TSG and those Posts show that you are not some lame-brain that believes that there are fairies at the bottom of the garden.

If intelligent people really believe that someone (Trump) with values that rightly belong in the sewer will make "America Great Again", then there is real cause for concern. Do Americans really want their children to grow up believing, copying and sharing the Trump-values...?

T.


----------



## bomb #21

> Make America Great Again™


Fixed it.


----------



## Johnny b

Tabvla said:


> That is probably one of the most disturbing sentences in this Thread.
> 
> Storage_Man, you are obviously intelligent. I say that because I have read many of your technical Posts on TSG and those Posts show that you are not some lame-brain that believes that there are fairies at the bottom of the garden.
> 
> If intelligent people really believe that someone (Trump) with values that rightly belong in the sewer will make "America Great Again", then there is real cause for concern. Do Americans really want their children to grow up believing, copying and sharing the Trump-values...?
> 
> T.


Let's get right to the point.
Do we want a 'next' generation whose best opportunities in life lie as members of the Russian mafia and being lackeys in an autocratic society?


----------



## Johnny b

June 2, 2016

https://www.cato.org/publications/commentary/trumps-dangerous-war-press-freedom

* Trump's Dangerous War on Press Freedom *

(What a respected think tank that caters to libertarian viewpoints presents)



> Within the past 10 years Trump partnered with Felix H. Sater, a convicted felon with ties to the Russian mob. Sater had previously been convicted of racketeering for his part in a stock manipulation scheme. Sater, who had also served a prison sentence for stabbing a man in the face with a broken margarita glass, was issued a Trump Organization business card identifying him as a "senior advisor" to Trump. Sater worked with Trump on a condo project in lower Manhattan that resulted in a civil fraud lawsuit. *A criminal investigation was opened that was only closed after Trump agreed to settle the civil case.*


storageman, do you understand that paragraph?
An example of Trump above the law as he does business in a criminal fashion with a mobster as a partner and trusted advisor.



> "If we are to demand that other countries respect the tradition of a free press, we must also practice that here at home."
> 
> But don't expect any such demands from Trump if he's elected president. He has defended Russian President Vladimir Putin against accusations of involvement in state-sanctioned violence against journalists.


And now there is no 'If'.


----------



## Johnny b

In an effort to make "America Great Again"............

* Energy Department's Climate Office Banned From Using Phrase "Climate Change" *

http://www.iflscience.com/environment/energy-department-climate-office-banned-phrase-climate-change/



> As reported by Politico, a supervisor at the DoE's Office of International Climate and Clean Energy told the staff in no uncertain terms that the phrases "climate change", "emissions reduction", and "Paris agreement" are not to be used in written memos, briefings, or any form of communication.


Censorship is obviously a necessity for Trump's brave new world


----------



## Littlefield

Wino said:


> C'mon, Littlefield, Turnip is gonna make Shrub look like a neophyte when it comes to being a bumbling idiot!
> 
> So how are things going in the Carolina's these days. Any voter remorse yet??


Hey,Wino do not go on this dead forum much and never be the same as seems some are TSTTT. LOL. UNC Tar Heels baby ! Trump will get a win when he gets Gorsuch on Supreme Court. Check out my aircraft photos in that forum.


----------



## Wino

Littlefield said:


> Hey,Wino do not go on this dead forum much and never be the same as seems some are TSTTT. LOL. UNC Tar Heels baby ! Trump will get a win when he gets Gorsuch on Supreme Court. Check out my aircraft photos in that forum.


Gorsuch is a shoo in, but wouldn't call it a win for The Cheeto. Seems NCAA still won't be coming to NC any years soon - guess they are worried about being molested in restrooms by transgenders same as your Lege even with the "change" in law that really wasn't a change. Texas is about to join the boycotts as fairly sure our Lege will pass similar bill. What forum has aircraft photos? As for Tar Heels, I guess a one point win is still a win. LOL


----------



## Littlefield

Wino, in the Photo Album part of this site. Yea, man and Obama was right about UNC. LOL


----------



## Wino

First was WSJ, now LA Times - should be an interesting few days as they publish the rest of their accounts. We have elected a man baby, petulant, ignorant of most all things, vindictive (makes Nixon look like a non-paranoid amateur) - and all the other adjectives this poor excuse of a human is called in the article(s).

http://www.latimes.com/projects/la-ed-our-dishonest-president/#nt=oft02a-2la1


----------



## Wino

Previous post was Part 1; following is Part 2

http://www.latimes.com/projects/la-ed-why-trump-lies/

They have his number. It's a shame the minority can't comprehend this fact.


----------



## poochee

Wino said:


> Previous post was Part 1; following is Part 2
> 
> http://www.latimes.com/projects/la-ed-why-trump-lies/
> 
> They have his number. It's a shame the minority can't comprehend this fact.


*...*


----------



## Tabvla

As this is April, which kinda goes down as the silly-month in the Northern hemisphere.... the thoughts of warm days, sunshine, cold beer..... and Wino's favorite, woman's beach volley ball.... makes us all just a little silly.

I thought that this may be a good moment to add a little madness to this discussion.

My April conspiracy theory is that Donald is actually a Democrat stooge. Firstly the Dems find an ego-driven narcissist, with a poor record when it comes to woman; students; migrants; poor; environment..... and who knows little about how the political world works. Next they select an opponent in Hillary, who let us be truthful about this - if you cannot beat Hillary, then you really should not be in the political arena.

And therefore in this no-contest scenario, Donald (apologies to a duck by the same name) becomes President. Everything that DT has accomplished so far has made the Republican party look bad; has divided the Republican party like no other President (Democrat or Republican); has dismayed, angered and disappointed millions who voted for him; has become a uncomfortable embarrassment to his international counterparts and has befouled the sanctity of the Oval Office. Surely a great win for the Dems.

But wait a moment....... the above actually makes some sense..... hmmmm..... perhaps this isn't a silly-month conspiracy theory after all....

T.


----------



## Wino

Part 3:

http://www.latimes.com/projects/la-ed-trumps-authoritarian-vision/

Aside to Tabvla - Trump nor Democrats are intelligent enough to pull off something like that - neither are the reptilians.


----------



## Tabvla

Aside to Wino - careful what you say about the Reptilians. Since 1983 I have shown only the greatest respect and humility in the presence of alligators, crocodiles and even little gecko's...... you never know what may be hiding beneath....

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/V_(1983_miniseries)

And thanks for the LA Times article. Just phoned Elon Musk and booked a spot on his one-way trip to Mars.

T.


----------



## Johnny b

I'll have to agree with Wino.
I doubt either party is slick enough to get away with stealing an election the likes of what we've just seen, on their own.
Now it's become obvious that the Republican primary contestants were also spied upon, with the Rubio and ex-FBI statements recently coming out.

Seems to me it's obviously a coordinated action against both parties to install one candidate, Trump. With his intense business ties to Russian mobsters on a global scale who also coordinate with Putin, it's even more obvious the Russians have corrupted our election process to put a man they have strong influences with, in the WhiteHouse.


----------



## Wino

I remember past days the right abhorred all things communist and accused any Dem in the White House of being a communist pinko - now it's all okay to kiss Putin's butt and we actually have a REAL communist residing in the White House (if and when Melania ever moves in) rather than a pseudo leftist communist as the right has always claimed.


----------



## Guyzer

Has anyone besides me ever thought that DT did not expect to and did not want to win the election
nor did his wife want him to win. He knew he was out of his league then and it's becoming more of a 
fact daily. 
With reference to his wife it's apparent she has zero interest in being first lady.


----------



## bomb #21

Guyzer said:


> Has anyone besides me ever thought that DT did not expect to and did not want to win the election
> nor did his wife want him to win. He knew he was out of his league then and it's becoming more of a
> fact daily.
> With reference to his wife it's apparent she has zero interest in being first lady.


I believe he thought he _might_ win. I believe he 100% *wanted* to win because everything to him is a competition and he has a compulsion to be #1 - whether in reality or in his mind. I believe it never occurred to him that should he win, he might actually have to do the job.

Melania: I doubt what she wanted came into it much. IMO "First partner" is what you make it, no-one will die if all she does is make an appearance once a month.


----------



## Wino

Guyzer, I think Trump was probably more shocked and surprised than I was, but frankly don't believe for one minute he ever felt unqualified and out of his league or depth - he's too arrogant and ignorant to face those realities.


----------



## Johnny b

Guyzer said:


> Has anyone besides me ever thought that DT did not expect to and did not want to win the election
> nor did his wife want him to win. He knew he was out of his league then and it's becoming more of a
> fact daily.
> With reference to his wife it's apparent she has zero interest in being first lady.


Simply....no.
I could go indepth, but it would be repetition of what's been posted before.

I think what he didn't expect was the resistance to his orders that we're seeing, the follow up on his connections to Russian mobsters and Putin.


----------



## Johnny b

I've posted my current thoughts.
I'm disgusted with both political parties and especially this new Trump party.
Anything more is simply repetition on a theme.
I'll still read this forum, but right now, I'd rather be a spectator than a participant to history with a bad ending.

Bye for now
John.


----------



## Wino

Part V:

http://www.latimes.com/projects/la-ed-conspiracy-theorist-in-chief/


----------



## Tabvla

Johnny-be-Good said:


> I've posted my current thoughts.
> I'm disgusted with both political parties and especially this new Trump party.
> Anything more is simply repetition on a theme.
> I'll still read this forum, but right now, I'd rather be a spectator than a participant to history with a bad ending.
> 
> Bye for now
> John.


John...... come back. What are we going to do without your wisdom if he nukes NK or... starts WWIII with Russia in Syria.....or is impeached or.... decides he doesn't want to do the job anyway or....

Times are just getting interesting. This Thread will be poorer without your input.

All in favor of John's return, please vote now....!!

T.


----------



## Tabvla

Is all this apparent sabre-rattling with the Big Bear simply a tactic to divert attention away from the Russian involvement with the US election and the new investigation into potential huge loans by the T-organization from unnamed Russians. Reliable sources have repeatedly speculated that an ex-KGB chief and not BG is the world's richest person.... and by a large margin at that.

T.


----------



## Wino

Absolutely. Putin's plan to cover for the Mango Mussolini, instructing Assad to use gas so the Golden Blob could look presidential for a few days. Classic tail wagging the dog.


----------



## bomb #21

Johnny-be-Good said:


> I've posted my current thoughts.
> I'm disgusted with both political parties and especially this new Trump party.
> Anything more is simply repetition on a theme.
> I'll still read this forum, but *right now, I'd rather be a spectator than a participant to history with a bad ending*.


Sometimes it's just exhausting.


----------



## Johnny b

bomb #21 said:


> Sometimes it's just exhausting.


In many ways, bomb. Many ways.

So many contradictions are coming to light, so many lies exposed, so many of Trump's faithful double crossed ( the art of the deal LOL! ).....I often find myself laughing. But not for long.

bomb....half of our society appears insane. Half ignorant. Half socialist. Half fascist. Obviously there's a lot of overlap 
It's difficult arguing/debating/discussing with ignorant crazy people 

Currently it's Cirque Du Trump playing DC.

ATM, I'd rather spectate.

John.


----------



## Tabvla

Have we all gone stark, staring, raving bonkers.....?????

Here we are organizing marches and rallies and street demos and hilarious days at the fun fare to do what...? Demonstrate against WW3...?....  No..... to demand DT's tax returns, while this narcissistic egotist's hand hovers menacingly over the Nuclear Button.

Are we crazy or is it that we just don't we want to see reality..?

This is no longer amusing. 

T.


----------



## steppenwolf

damn how many times must i click here to get to last page?


----------



## Johnny b

Once ought to do it


----------



## Johnny b

Tabvla said:


> Have we all gone stark, staring, raving bonkers.....?????
> 
> Here we are organizing marches and rallies and street demos and hilarious days at the fun fare to do what...? Demonstrate against WW3...?.... No..... to demand DT's tax returns, while this narcissistic egotist's hand hovers menacingly over the Nuclear Button.
> 
> Are we crazy or is it that we just don't we want to see reality..?
> 
> This is no longer amusing.
> 
> T.


While he's risking conflict, whether deserved or not, notice how the press has less to report on his criminal connections and election interference?
I think it's further evidence of the public's short attention span and the press' focus on selling the moment.


----------



## steppenwolf

Johnny-be-Good said:


> In many ways, bomb. Many ways.
> 
> So many contradictions are coming to light, so many lies exposed, so many of Trump's faithful double crossed ( the art of the deal LOL! ).....I often find myself laughing. But not for long.
> 
> bomb....half of our society appears insane. Half ignorant. Half socialist. Half fascist. Obviously there's a lot of overlap
> It's difficult arguing/debating/discussing with ignorant crazy people
> 
> Currently it's Cirque Du Trump playing DC.
> 
> ATM, I'd rather spectate.
> 
> John.


oh and its nothing Hillary or democrats did to cause us to vote for any damn republican yeah sure

can you guess why?


----------



## Johnny b

steppenwolf said:


> oh and its nothing Hillary or democrats did to cause us to vote for any damn republican yeah sure
> 
> can you guess why?


All you are doing is proving my points to the forum.
If you bothered to read the forum on a regular basis you'd discover I'm not a Democrat, I'm a registered Republican that found both H Clinton and D Trump too repulsive to vote for either.

I've made derogative comments about Clinton, too but as she didn't win the election and Trump is center stage, he has most of the attention at the moment.

What negative acts the Democrats have done in the past is not logical justification for what negative acts Trump is doing now, nor is any negative act Trump does now justification for negative acts Democrats do in the future.

One of my points, the intelligence of the general public is dismal.
It's stupidity unforgivable.

Thank you for posting.

John.


----------



## Johnny b

A follow up to my last post in this thread:

Commentary by Tom Nichols, a professor of national security affairs at the Naval War College and an adjunct professor at the Harvard Extension School:

https://www.usatoday.com/story/opin...ruining-america-tom-nichols-column/100926836/

* Are Trump voters ruining America for all of us? *

( not feeling well these days and as I mentioned before, most of these discussions are repeated facts I don't feel up to repeating even though I agree. The above article says it all for me! No doubt there will be new issues.)

John


----------



## Tabvla

Good day Mike Pence..... it may be time to start working on your acceptance speech..... hmmm.... next problem, who will be your VP...?

"......._US President Donald Trump has been talking about his previous life and how surprised he is that his new job at the White House is not less taxing. He "loved" his old lifestyle because he "had so many things going", the former property mogul told Reuters news agency from his desk in the Oval Office._
_"This is more work than in my previous life," he said. "I thought it would be easier_."......"

BBC US and Canada

T.


----------



## Wino

During the campaign and before the orange blob was elected, I stated many times he was in for a rude awakening if elected to find running a country isn't as easy as a closed corporation where you have complete control and decision making. That he was going to be frustrated at every turn when he couldn't just "order" it done. The man boy is a walking talking ignoramus. I'm just hoping he doesn't get most of us killed before he is out of office - for what ever reason.


----------



## Wino

I had great expectations Turnip would be bad - he exceeded my expectations - worse than even I thought he would be.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/opin...3fc6ff7faee_story.html?utm_term=.8a20a2cad582


----------



## poochee

Wino said:


> I had great expectations Turnip would be bad - he exceeded my expectations - worse than even I thought he would be.
> 
> https://www.washingtonpost.com/opin...3fc6ff7faee_story.html?utm_term=.8a20a2cad582


I turned off on him in the first Rep debate.


----------



## Johnny b

poochee said:


> I turned off on him in the first Rep debate.


:up:

I thought he was a schmuck decades ago before he started pretending he was a Republican.


----------



## bomb #21

The phrase "fake news" is relatively new. Relative to "Faux News", that is.

Apparently a certain news outlet has been running a graphic which highlights that in recent years Republican presidents have tended to leave things in a mess. SAD!

*'misleading' graphic on Donald Trump's unemployment record*


----------



## bomb #21

The guy tweeted "Ask Sally Yates, under oath, if she knows how classified information got into the newspapers soon after she explained it to W.H. Counsel."

Someone else tweeted "witness intimidation - illegal?"

I don't know. What I *believe* is, if the POTUS wants some question asked, he has the power to have a word with someone to make sure that's what happens. Instead he has to go off on his customary "hey twits, (don't look at xyz,) look at MEE!" schtick.

Needs professional help. Sad.


----------



## bomb #21

Everyone read the Comey letter already? Here's the bit that does my head in.

"While I greatly appreciate you informing me, on three separate occasions, that I am not under investigation, I nevertheless concur"

What does informing him on three separate occasions even have to do with anything?

A few years back the Donald stated "I don't like firing people". Reading between these latest lines, my gut feeling is he actually feels guilty about it - sorta like "you've been good to me before X 3, but Bert and Ernie think you're not all that so ... y'know".

This one will run and run, probably.


----------



## poochee

bomb #21 said:


> *This one will run and run, probably*.


Yep!


----------



## poochee

*The Daily 202: Firing FBI director Comey is already backfiring on Trump. It's only going to get worse*
James Hohmann By James Hohmann May 10 at 10:24 AM

*VIDEO*

*THE BIG IDEA: After the president fired James Comey, the cloud hanging over the White House just got bigger and darker.*

*-- Donald Trump has surrounded himself with sycophants and amateurs who are either unwilling or unable to tell him no. *He lacks a David Gergen-like figure who is wise to the ways of Washington and has the stature to speak up when the president says he wants to fire an FBI director who is overseeing the counterintelligence investigation into whether his associates coordinated with Moscow. Without such a person, Trump just walked headlong into a political buzz saw.

*-- Senior officials at the White House were caught off guard by the intense and immediate blowback to the president's stunning decision to fire James Comey.* They reportedly expected Republicans to back him up and thought Democrats wouldn't complain loudly because they have been critical of Comey for his handling of the Hillary Clinton email investigation. Indeed, that was the dubious excuse given publicly for his ouster.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news..._term=.50b76938b96a&wpisrc=nl_daily202&wpmm=1


----------



## poochee

May 10 2017, 8:39 am ET
*Trump Wades Into Uncharted Waters With Comey Ouster*
by Chuck Todd, Mark Murray and Carrie Dann

*VIDEO*

Trump wades into uncharted waters with Comey firing

Every time President Trump has faced the choice between advancing his own interests and upholding the country's separation of powers, traditions and norms, he's picked the former. *Consider

http://www.nbcnews.com/politics/fir...ers-comey-ouster-n757301?cid=eml_pol_20170510*


----------



## poochee

May 10, 2:15 PM EDT
*Comey sought more Russia probe resources before firing*
By JULIE PACE, EILEEN SULLVIAN and ERIC TUCKER
Associated Press

WASHINGTON (AP) -- In the days before his firing by President Donald Trump, FBI Director James Comey told U.S. lawmakers he had asked the Justice Department for more resources to pursue the bureau's investigation into Russia's interference in last year's presidential election, three U.S. officials said Wednesday.

The officials said Comey met last week with Rod Rosenstein, the deputy attorney general, to make the request. Comey then alerted lawmakers with ties to the concurrent congressional investigations into Russia's meddling, according to the officials, who insisted on anonymity in order to disclose the private conversations.

Justice Department spokeswoman Sarah Isgur Flores said it was false that Comey had asked Rosenstein for money for the Russia investigation.

The revelations raise new questions about what prompted Trump's decision to fire Comey. The White House has cited a memo from Rosenstein, in which he criticizes Comey's handling of last year's investigation into Democrat Hillary Clinton's email practices.

https://forums.techguy.org/threads/the-trump-term-of-office.1183765/page-12#post-9368788


----------



## Wino

David Brooks nails it!! Our president is a child.

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/05/15/opinion/trump-classified-data.html?partner=msft_msn


----------



## Tabvla

Does no one on Capitol Hill know how to spell "impeach"...? Perhaps they should ask Wino, he has been practicing writing that word since January.

How much longer can we (and by "we" I mean the World) endure this 7-year old at the helm...

T.


----------



## poochee

I truly hope he has hung himself this time!


----------



## Tabvla

Mike Pence, it is time to polish up the Acceptance Speech and to start giving a lot of thought as to who will be your Vice...... the President is running scared, very scared.

"WASHINGTON (AP) - _President Donald Trump lashed out Thursday at the appointment of a special counsel to investigate allegations his campaign collaborated with Russia as Congress confronted an apparent setback in its own probes: A lawyer for Michael Flynn said the fired national security adviser would not provide documents for an intelligence panel's inquiry.

Trump began the day by tweeting that he is the victim of "the single greatest witch hunt of a politician in American history," a claim ignoring impeachment efforts and blistering verbal attacks on previous presidents and other political leaders.

He has made similar complaints before, but this one came the day after the Justice Department appointed former FBI Director Robert Mueller to lead the federal Trump-Russia investigation. Mueller will have sweeping powers and the authority to prosecute any crimes he uncovers_......"

And on Mike Pence, also from Associated Press....

"......_Throughout the upheavals, Pence has maintained political life as usual. He has carved out a role as the administration's top lobbyist on Capitol Hill and was instrumental in helping Republicans pass a health care plan in the House. While Trump is away on his first foreign trip, Pence will be addressing graduates at a Pennsylvania Christian college and at Notre Dame while working on budget and policy issues in Washington_.......

T.


----------



## Wino

Trump saying he'd tell his tale under oath re Comey - I expect that will happen about the same time the idiot releases his tax returns, admits his inauguration crowd was much smaller than Obama's and that he is a pathological liar and that no one should believe anything he says. Not holding my breath. LOL


----------



## Tabvla

Can anyone explain how we actually got here...?

As with most countries, the US has its fair share of dumb folk, but it also has a good number of very smart folk. So how is it that we gave the most important job in the world to the champion of the dumb..?

T.


----------



## Johnny b

Tabvla said:


> Can anyone explain how we actually got here...?
> 
> As with most countries, the US has its fair share of dumb folk, but it also has a good number of very smart folk. So how is it that we gave the most important job in the world to the champion of the dumb..?
> 
> T.


Apparently they believe in campaign promises/sound bytes and the more extreme they ( the promises and claims ) become, the more they believe them.
Losers are like that....and to them, 'it's someone else's fault'.


----------



## Wino

Rage, fear, economy, terrible candidates, lies and promises for the gullible - then 40% of voters didn't vote and the electoral college finished the deed as the Blob was 3 Mil short in actual vote. Never have so many voted against their own self interest in my life time - well other than Nixon, Reagan, Bush I & II and now the Orange Spore.

My sole satisfaction is that should Spore exceed my expectations and become successful (which I seriously doubt will happen) I will benefit. Or on the other hand, takes the nation down the tubes to Sewerville, at least the morons that voted for him (with exception of the 1%) will suffer, too - and I can say "I told you so!!"


----------



## Tabvla

Perhaps this may be the start of the impeachment process...... then again, probably not, but without hope what does one have..?

_".....President Donald Trump is being investigated by special counsel Robert Mueller for possible obstruction of justice, US media reports say._

_They say senior intelligence officials will be interviewed on whether Mr Trump tried to end an inquiry into his sacked national security adviser, and about the firing of FBI chief James Comey. Mr Trump tweeted that the move was the latest action in a "phony story"._

_Mr Mueller is leading an FBI inquiry into Russian meddling in the election. President Trump has repeatedly denied any collusion with Russia, describing the ongoing inquiry as a "witch hunt"._

_The latest development was first carried in the Washington Post. Later the New York Times and Wall St Journal reported the story, citing their own sources. The Washington Post said the decision by Mr Mueller to investigate President Trump's own conduct is a major turning point in the investigation, which until recently focused on the Russian angle....."_

T.


----------



## Wino

I hold out no hope of salvation from this maniacal twit the US semi-elected.


----------



## Tabvla

And today he is Tweeting about what a bad person HC is...... That might be quite true, but would any reasonably sane person not share the view that the President of the most influential country on Earth, that such a person, holding such an important office, would have more important things to do...? 

T.


----------



## bomb #21

OMW, haven't you guys fired Trump yet? Do hurry up, Brexit starts next week, it would be really handy if we could hire the planet's premier negotiator.


----------



## Johnny b

My goodness how things have progressed since the previous post.

Obamacare? What?

Now it's hookers, whores, golden showers and wishes to be 'on' Mt.Rushmore.

 

And the Russian connection still maintains attention as one Trump election associate after another gets indicted.

This is like a reality show on the Fox network


----------



## Phantom010

Johnny-be-Good said:


> My goodness how things have progressed since the previous post.
> 
> Obamacare? What?
> 
> Now it's hookers, whores, golden showers and wishes to be 'on' Mt.Rushmore.
> 
> 
> 
> And the Russian connection still maintains attention as one Trump election associate after another gets indicted.
> 
> This is like a reality show on the Fox network


I watched a Fox video last night about a recent phone interview they had with Trump. I couldn't believe they were talking to the president (I still can't say it) of the United States! I was so ashamed! The guy is a complete narcissist ignorant moron! He actually believes he's the best president we ever had!


----------



## Johnny b

Phantom010 said:


> I watched a Fox video last night about a recent phone interview they had with Trump. I couldn't believe they were talking to the president (I still can't say it) of the United States! I was so ashamed! The guy is a complete narcissist ignorant moron! He actually believes he's the best president we ever had!


Indeed.
It's difficult to comment in a serious manner because his tenure has been so absurd.

He made/makes his fortune as a property developer.
In general, they plead and argue to take for themselves without ethical boundaries.
They need to believe their own bs inorder to convince others.
'Truth' becomes what ever is needed to convince others.
A lot like politicians 

Trump obviously does it well.

What disturbs me more is how large segments of the population believe him unquestioningly.


----------



## Johnny b

Example of the above:

* Trump Wrong on Comey 'Leak,' McCabe Funds *
https://www.factcheck.org/2018/04/trump-wrong-on-comey-leak-mccabe-funds/

There was simply no truth to Trump's accusations.
But he acts outraged as if innocent.
And I suspect he'll keep on acting outraged no matter how much evidence is provided to the contrary. Why? Because that's the pattern he's set since arguing the size of the inaugural crowds.

He's become a buffoon and those closest are probably too scared of him to tip him off.


----------



## steppenwolf

trump brought peace in the koreas


----------



## Johnny b

steppenwolf said:


> trump brought peace in the koreas


Trump probably should get some credit.
But I suspect NK's nuke site becoming geologically unstable, the Chinese influence and the constant extreme poverty of NK has had significantly more influence.

Seriously, the only thing Trump can do is make things worse.
And until there is an actual agreement, signed and adhered to, there is no concept of peace in play. Only the same stale promises of the past that NK repeatedly reneged on.

Here's a thought.....will Trump be allowed to even continue holding his Presidency to see peace in the Korean Peninsula after Mueller gets done with those 50 or so questions he intends to have Trump explain?


----------



## Phantom010

Maybe Trump's gonna get a Noble Peace Prize... If Obama got one (never understood that one), I wouldn't be surprised if Trump got one too. While we're at it, why not give one to Kim Jong-un as well!? I don't believe Trump had much to do with peace in Korea, especially the way he was talking about the "Rocket Man".... I think he's just lucky Kim decided it was time to stop pissing off China... He's not doing it for Trump.


----------



## Johnny b

The Nobel Peace Prize became a joke after giving one to Arafat.
To give one to Trump is meaningless.
Just another trophy for the mindless to admire.


----------



## Johnny b

This could just as easily been out of Ripley's Believe it or Not!



* Trump, not his doctor, wrote glowing 2015 letter on his health, physician now says *

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news...mp-dictated-glowing-rump-doctor-sa/572038002/

This came about because the doctor commented that Trump used a proscribed hair growth prescription and thusly had his office raided by several of Trump's goons to remove all files on Trump including the alias Trump was using.

I wonder if the good doctor's office was diligent in making backups in safe and undisclosed location/s? 

Common side effects of Propecia:

https://www.rxlist.com/propecia-side-effects-drug-center.htm


> impotence,
> loss of interest in sex,
> trouble having an orgasm,
> abnormal ejaculation,
> swelling in your hands or feet,
> swelling or tenderness in your breasts,
> dizziness,
> weakness,
> feeling like you might pass out,
> headache,
> runny nose, or
> skin rash.


https://newatlas.com/finasteride-hair-loss-sexual-dysfunction/48350/
* Popular hair-loss drug Propecia could be linked to long-term mojo meltdown *


> Can you save your hair and keep your mojo, too?


Maybe the Donald was simply seeing Stormy for medical reasons? LOL!

http://abcnews.go.com/Health/baldne...g-possibly-permanent-sexual/story?id=16758123


> For Some Men, Propecia's Sexual Side Effects May Be Long-lasting


Well la de da!

But that's no reason to take it out on us!

And the grand winner is.......
https://www.drugs.com/sfx/propecia-side-effects.html



> More common
> 
> Chills
> cold sweats
> 
> --------> *confusion*
> 
> dizziness, faintness, or lightheadedness when getting up from a lying or sitting position


Yeah  That third one is why the public should be concerned about how large the doses were of Propecia and how long he's been taking it and no doubt the real reason the doctor's office was raided and Trump's files confiscated.

Gotta wonder what else was there we should know.


----------



## Phantom010

Johnny-be-Good said:


> Gotta wonder what else was there we should know.


Viagra?


----------



## Phantom010

Trump in front of the NRA... Who cares about kids in schools! He's not gonna bite the hand that fed him so generously...

I say, a massive student (peaceful) strike throughout the whole country. We don't go back to school until real significant changes are made, period! We've seen this in other countries... Otherwise, the status quo will remain...


----------



## Phantom010

What did I tell you? What an IDIOT!

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/...orea-summit-us-denuclearisation-a8338631.html

He actually thinks HE's the guy who made it all happen!  He's gonna ruin everything!


----------



## Johnny b

With Trump there is always the issue of him being serious with public statements.
His objectives aren't necessarily in the interests of a peaceful lasting settlement.

Trump's entire life seems built around his imagery.
Consider, who needs a trash talking bully if there is no villain to confront?

And his promotion of a new military unit, Space Force, is right out of the Neo-Con's version of PaxAmericana, where the US rules the world from military superiority in outer space.

Now his comments about the concept of 'President for Life' being a worthy goal takes on new realizations.

Mt. Rushmore just isn't enough.


----------



## Wino

Turnip is one trait away from list of ten that applies to dictators:

http://deadline.com/2018/02/bill-maher-donald-trump-hbo-real-time-dictator-checklist-1202283808/

Does anyone know the schedule for his military parade?? He's a bit obese to wear the Shah's old garb, but bet Idi Amin's would fit just fine. LOL


----------



## Johnny b

*Did I say Chinese jobs? I meant American jobs says new Trump Tweet *

https://www.theregister.co.uk/2018/05/15/trump_zte_tweet_2/



> Jobs, schmobs: ZTE's about national security, stupid, say Republicans


Did anyone else realize that Trump changed his mind about saving ZTE in order to save Chinese jobs and now claims saving ZTE is about saving US jobs?

And what about the security issues with ZTE from a National Security aspect?

https://www.digitaltrends.com/mobile/senate-intelligence-committee-huawei-zte-news/

Why is Trump so destructive to American morality and national security? (rhetorical)


----------



## Johnny b

Well, here we go with a potential reason Trump changed his mind about ZTE:

* China Contributing $500 Million to Trump-Linked Project in Indonesia *
https://www.nationalreview.com/news/china-contributing-500-million-trump-linked-project-indonesia/



> The Chinese government is extending a $500 million loan to a state-owned construction company to build an Indonesian theme park that will feature a Trump-branded golf course and hotels.
> 
> A subsidiary of Chinese state-owned construction firm Metallurgical Corporation of China (MCC) signed a deal last week with the Indonesian firm MNC Land to build an "integrated lifestyle resort," as part of Beijing's global influence-expanding "Belt and Road" infrastructure initiative.


I'm not exactly shocked at this. 
This was expected, considering Trump's reputation.
A question that should be considered is: how much other corruption has Trump put into play or has planned that hurts the US while enrichening himself?


----------



## Johnny b

Better get that Nobel Peace Prize nomination locked in now Donald 

* North Korea threatens to cancel Donald Trump-Kim Jong Un meeting *
https://www.usatoday.com/story/news...l-donald-trump-kim-jong-un-meeting/612350002/


----------



## Phantom010

Carrying out those military exercises was surely going to have that effect. It wasn't very brilliant considering what was at stake. Idiots!


----------



## Johnny b

IMO, if it hadn't been that, I suspect it would have been something else.


----------



## Wino

.............in addition his motor mouth and agile fingers, Cheetolini would find a way to screw up a one car funeral.


----------



## Johnny b

While I agree Trump is a screwup, I don't think North Korea is capable of honest negotiations on any level.

A little history:
* North Korea's threat to cancel Trump-Kim summit is just the latest of broken promises *

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news...es-have-broken-promises-over-years/612530002/



> After meeting with South Korean President Moon and releasing three American detainees last week, North Korea agreed to a meeting with Trump on June 12 in Singapore to discuss the nuclear issue.
> 
> A week later, a North Korean official announced on the country's official KCNA news channel that meeting may be nixed if it is going to be pushed into giving up its nuclear arsenal.


In case anyone missed it, the reason for the NK-US negotiations centers around NK giving up their nuclear arsenal.
The 'joke' is Trump accepting credit for something that probably isn't going to happen while his minions cheer him on and the trump worshipers go blind to reality.


----------



## Johnny b

And now a few eloquent words from our President:

In regards to undocumented immigrants.......

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news...-mexico-democrats-sanctuary-cities/617252002/



> "These aren't people. These are animals."


Says the guy that has cheated on ALL his wives, imposed himself on women, had sexual relations with a porn star and reportedly involved in golden showers possibly caught on tape by his good ex KGB buds now in the GRU.

And that's not even mentioning all the law suits, bankruptcies, payoffs by his fixer Cohen, secret real estate deals in Florida nor the new revelation of having his new resort in Indonesia financed by the Chinese shortly before recommending the Feds now help out the CHINESE tech company ZTE after imposing sanctions.

hmmmm.....!


----------



## Phantom010

Even scarier are the people who voted for him and STILL supporting him!


----------



## Littlefield

*'They Aren't People.' President Trump Calls Deported Gang Members 'Animals'*

*Looks like Time got it right ! Lol *
*On iPad*
*http://time.com/5279995/they-arent-people-president-trump-calls-deported-gang-members-animals/*


----------



## Johnny b

Littlefield said:


> *'They Aren't People.' President Trump Calls Deported Gang Members 'Animals'*
> 
> *Looks like Time got it right ! Lol *
> *On iPad*
> *http://time.com/5279995/they-arent-people-president-trump-calls-deported-gang-members-animals/*


And yet, this is Trump's quote in that article:



> "We have people coming into the country, or trying to come in, we're stopping a lot of them. And we're taking people out of the country, you wouldn't believe how bad these people are. These aren't people, these are animals," he told the group of California public figures. "And we're taking them out of the country at a level, at a rate, that's never happened before."


Nothing in the article about gangs other than the headline that the reporter wrote......

Whoops


----------



## Littlefield

You really have reading comprehension problems if you do not realize he was talking about MS 13 gang members. LOL
Even the Time reporter got the context. Try and read your link again to get the gist. LOL


----------



## Johnny b

But since you are using a Time article as a proof statement, let's see what Jerry Brown has to say 



> "[Trump] is lying on immigration, lying about crime and lying about the laws of CA," he tweeted. "Flying in a dozen Republican politicians to flatter him and praise his reckless policies changes nothing. We, the citizens of the fifth largest economy in the world, are not impressed."


I think we all know Trump is a liar. The press has presented his contradictions endlessly 

So let's compare to see just how animalistic these illegals are.

https://www.migrationpolicy.org/new...nal-convictions-who-might-be-priority-removal
800 thousand out of 11 million illegals had criminal records. Lets round up and call it 8%

Now to legal citizens

http://www.politifact.com/new-york/...yes-one-three-us-adults-have-criminal-record/

That's 73.4 million out of 249.4 million, have criminal records.
that's 29.4% +

Not only does that show illegals aren't the big issue Trump claims, it shows the US has too much crime and US citizens are the main problem.

So...what is Trump doing about it as he, himself, skates from one personal scandal to many as President?

Nothing!!!!


----------



## Johnny b

Littlefield said:


> You really have reading comprehension problems if you do not realize he was talking about MS 13 gang members. LOL
> Even the Time reporter got the context. Try and read your link again to get the gist. LOL


You posted the link. Now you add context that wasn't reported. LOL!


----------



## Littlefield

Are you really that much an idiot that you do not apply what your own link says too ? Face it Trump was taken out of context as he was clearly talking about MS - 13 in response to her.


----------



## Johnny b

Littlefield said:


> Are you really that much an idiot that you do not apply what your own link says too ? Face it Trump was taken out of context as he was clearly talking about MS - 13 in response to her.


I think you have vision problems and it's confusing you 

This was the head line:
* Trump ramps up rhetoric on undocumented immigrants: 'These aren't people. These are animals.' *

And the mention of MS 13 was whining to go beyond deporting criminal illegals and deporting all as a generality for this reason......* 'These aren't people. These are animals.' *

BTW, Trump's comment was incredibly racist at the same time.


----------



## Johnny b

Littlefield said:


> Are you really that much an idiot .........................


Nice! 

Can't win on facts so you resort to name calling.....


----------



## Littlefield

Nope, I said if you did not use the facts in your USA Today link you are an idiot.
I hope you did. LOL


----------



## Johnny b

Littlefield said:


> Nope, I said if you did not use the facts in your link you are an idiot.
> I hope you did. LOL


No you didn't 

You presented a variable scale when you used the terms * that much an idiot *.
That definitely implied variable (edit) value to the term, *idiot*......which still shows desperation 

You'll need to be a much better spin artist if you intend to defend Trump 

LOL!!


----------



## Johnny b

So, if 8% of a group of people are criminals and the group is designated as * Animals *, what does that make a group that is comprised of 29% criminals?

And why isn't the government doing something about it?


----------



## Johnny b

This is interesting.

It appears the Obama administration was tougher on undocumented criminal illegals than Trump currently is.

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news...n-criminal-undocumented-immigrants/620361002/

If Trump was truly concerned about our safety as he claims, shouldn't he be doing a better job of deporting more of the criminal element than Obama did rather than a lesser attempt?


----------



## Wino

Context?? Forming any type of context from the mouthings of the Orange Blob is like herding cats or rats - an impossible task. Hell, he doesn't even know what he's talking about most times, unless it's about himself, then it's mostly exaggerated lies of his pseudo greatness. What a putz! Difficult to believe this great nation elected this despicable human as our leader - says more about the nation than "his greatness"! Sad.


----------



## Johnny b

In my youthful college days back in the late 60's, there was a term bandied about that became popular for a short while.

*"Tell it like it is" *

This article in USAToday does that 100% even though it's an op-ed piece.
To say the US has had a string of poor choices for the Oval Office is an understatement, but I suspect our history will be written up as these are the worst of times and I suspect there are more hardships to come with Trump.

Telling it like it is:

https://www.usatoday.com/story/opin...ox-news-republican-enablers-column/630559002/

* Easy questions only for Donald Trump: President Snowflake loves his safe space. *



> Donald Trump is a coward enabled by Fox News and the GOP. Never has a modern president so carefully avoided pointed questions or had so much to answer for.


Too much to quote even though it's a condensed review of Trump's escapades.
IMO, worth the read.


----------



## Phantom010

Trump on NAFTA:

https://www.ctvnews.ca/politics/tru...led-difficult-to-deal-with-on-nafta-1.3941862



> OTTAWA - U.S. President Donald Trump is taking aim at Canada, calling his neighbour to the north "very difficult to deal with" and "very spoiled."


Hell of a way of maintaining good relations with main trade partners... It's no wonder that clown accumulates bankruptcies...


----------



## steppenwolf

https://www.yahoo.com/lifestyle/chelsea-clinton-trump-degrades-apos-135250848.html Chelsea Clinton skewered President Donald Trump&#39;s character in a recent Chelsea Clinton skewered President Donald Trump's character in a recent interview, accusing him of degrading "what it means to be an American." Clinton, a philanthropist and the daughter of former President Bill Clinton and former Secretary of State Hillary Clinton, tore into Trump when asked about his planned July visit to Britain during an interview published Saturday in The Guardian. "If I lived in Britain I would show up to protest, because I don't agree with what he's doing to degrade what it means to be an American," Clinton said. Clinton, 38, also told the newspaper that she's been the target of "vitriol" for as long as she could remember and credited Trump for prompting her decision to start firing back at people who say "hateful" things to her.

theres a certain sect of "liberals"in USA which includes her who are so bad that when they talk about trump i laugh

cant stand them


----------



## Wino

Well, have a laugh on me. Dear Chelsea is dead on about the Orange Scumbag being bad for the nation. I hope when he goes to Britain they revoke his visa, confiscate his passport and he isn't allowed to return to USA. LOL


----------



## Johnny b

steppenwolf said:


> .......
> 
> theres a certain sect of "liberals"in USA which includes her who are so bad that when they talk about trump i laugh
> 
> cant stand them


I agree with your point. 
She's merely the pot calling the kettle black.
But then, that's her mom Trump is constantly denigrating so I don't pay any attention to her.
Trump and Hilary are merely two sides of the same coin, one a corrupt left winger of socialist ilk and the other a corrupt opportunist pushing a fascist national socialist agenda.

a 'Bad penny', a currency of extremists.


----------



## steppenwolf

i dont have an engineering degree or a scientist but i think i have a certain level of intelligence and i get sick of people *****ing about trump and the voters who took a chance in 2016-in five months maybe ill vote for another party

im disgusted at trumps do nothing stuff in palestine


----------



## Johnny b

steppenwolf said:


> i dont have an engineering degree or a scientist but i think i have a certain level of intelligence and i get sick of people *****ing about trump and the voters who took a chance in 2016-in five months maybe ill vote for another party
> 
> im disgusted at trumps do nothing stuff in palestine


If you think it's bad now, consider how volatile it's going to get as one after another of Trump's 
election henchmen are addressed in court and Trump goes ballistic as the realization sinks in his tenure as President isn't as secure as he once thought. 2020 isn't that far away and as those indited face trial, Trump is likely to go intensely paranoid wondering who will turn on him first.

If you think the press has been unfair, you probably won't like what's coming.


----------



## steppenwolf

I DOUBT ALL that JBG and dems lost 1100 seats in last 9 years

dream away


----------



## Johnny b

steppenwolf said:


> I DOUBT ALL that JBG and dems lost 1100 seats in last 9 years
> 
> dream away


No dream 

Trump is already showing intense paranoia as Mueller's investigation gets closer and closer to Trump's door step 

He's been making up claims he can't or even won't back up and they are getting wilder and wilder.
Spygate? LOL!


----------



## steppenwolf

and you were ok with obama bombing more than bush and running up deficit?

the same scum that overthrew Ukraine president 4 years ago are capable of anything


----------



## Johnny b

steppenwolf said:


> and you were ok with obama bombing more than bush and running up deficit?
> 
> the same scum that overthrew Ukraine president 4 years ago are capable of anything


I'm pretty sure collusion with a nation that is our mortal enemy shouldn't be overlooked as you seem intent to do.

Crimes of the past are no excuse to defend crimes of the present.

I don't need to defend Obama. I didn't vote for him nor am I a member of the Democrat Party.

As far as deficits go, Bush, Obama and Trump have been fiscally irresponsible to extremes leaving the US tax payer and their children with a dim future.

As far as bombing goes, you must have been asleep for several decades.


----------



## steppenwolf

"our mortal enemy "you say--Who?Russia?why are they the "enemy" ?what a joke...speak for yourself..they're fighting ISIS in Syria -they beat the nazis probably more than we did...in fact wall st financed Hitler and Bolsheviks , the Russians surely did not--you get your news from CNN and msnbc i think


----------



## steppenwolf

and as for economics who is our enemy? and which country is buying up property in USA at a fast rate ? and which political party ignores all this?

"asleep for several decades"? i voted for Kerry because i was sick of bush and his war and i never liked obama and i voted for dole because i was sick of b clinton and his evil

why do i even reply

and im not sure ill vote for trump in 2020 or even republicans in 5 months


----------



## Johnny b

steppenwolf said:


> "our mortal enemy "you say--Who?Russia?why are they the "enemy" ?what a joke...speak for yourself..they're fighting ISIS in Syria -they beat the nazis probably more than we did...in fact wall st financed Hitler and Bolsheviks , the Russians surely did not--you get your news from CNN and msnbc i think


Bingo!

Thank you for those comments.

Kinda puts you in the support camp of dictators and Russian oligarchs.
A major point against Trump.
America can not be great as Trump projects if it is dominated as you apparently argue.


----------



## Johnny b

steppenwolf said:


> and as for economics who is our enemy? and which country is buying up property in USA at a fast rate ? and which political party ignores all this?
> 
> "asleep for several decades"? i voted for Kerry because i was sick of bush and his war and i never liked obama and i voted for dole because i was sick of b clinton and his evil
> 
> why do i even reply
> 
> and im not sure ill vote for trump in 2020 or even republicans in 5 months


The enemy is anyone that attempts to steal our freedoms and rights guaranteed by the Constitution.

Internally, that is Trump on many levels.

Externally, it's currently the Russians whom have been shown to be disrupting our society and corrupting our election processes, all the while those actions ignored by our President who has strong financial ties to Russian oligarchs and Russian political leaders.
Many of Trump's actions are currently under investigation. And it should be noted there are indictments of Trump's inner circle in association with illegal campaign manipulation. And there are ties being investigated between Trump and the wealthy oligarchs of Russia.

I couldn't care less who you voted for in the distant past.
It doesn't prove your position today.

I suggest you start reading all the news, not just the fake news out of the Trump camp!



> why do i even reply


Better yet, why do you argue in support of a President that's been dividing America?


----------



## steppenwolf

Christ said he came to divide, and not bring peace

and why dont you and neocons FROM BOTH PARTIES ever condemn repressive Chinese overt brutal dictators and pick on christian PUTIN?god bless Putin and assad


----------



## Johnny b

steppenwolf said:


> Christ said he came to divide, and not bring peace
> 
> and why dont you and neocons FROM BOTH PARTIES never condemn repressive Chinese overt brutal dictators and pick on christian PUTIN?god bless Putin and assad


I think you are confused.


----------



## steppenwolf

oh really!!?? i think im a prophet from GOD


----------



## Johnny b

steppenwolf said:


> oh really!!?? i think im a prophet from GOD




Not much I can say to that I haven't just posted


----------



## valis

do you honestly, with every fibre of your being, believe that you are a prophet sent from god? All honesty, now; lying is a sin after all.


----------



## steppenwolf

could be with velco fiber anyway





 Howard Beale Rant - Network


----------



## Johnny b

Do you get most of your political positions from fictional movies?


----------



## Johnny b

The fool on the hill:

Bye bye Nobel Peace Prize and hello burger franchise (  )

* Report: North Korea won't give up nukes but may allow U.S. fast food *

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news...but-may-allow-u-s-fast-food-report/654703002/



> A new CIA intelligence assessment concludes North Korea has no plans to relinquish its nuclear weapons program even though denuclearization is the centerpiece of the summit tentatively planned for next month, NBC News reported Tuesday.
> 
> But North Korean leader Kim Jong Un may be willing to bring a U.S. burger outlet to Pyongyang as a show of good faith, the assessment suggests.


Is anyone other than Trump surprised by this?


----------



## Johnny b

What happened to all the free market supporters?

* President Trump reportedly poised to ban German luxury carmakers from US market *

https://www.usatoday.com/story/mone...-german-luxury-carmakers-us-report/658745002/



> President Donald Trump is preparing to impose a total ban on German luxury carmakers from the U.S. market, according to an exclusive report by German magazine WirtschaftsWoche.
> 
> Citing several unnamed U.S. and European diplomats, the weekly business magazine reported that Trump told French President Emmanuel Macron last month he would maintain his trade policy with the aim of stopping Mercedes-Benz models from driving down Fifth Avenue in New York.


This attitude is obviously not the imagery of capitalism.
It is governmental intrusion and control of markets and an economy, an example of socialism.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Socialism

It's rather obvious far right wing Republicans do it too.


----------



## Johnny b

https://www.nbcnews.com/business/economy/u-s-hits-e-u-canada-mexico-steel-aluminum-tariffs-n878881

* U.S. hits E.U., Canada and Mexico with steel, aluminum tariffs, sparking trade war *

Too much to copy and paste.
It's become a trade war and consumers are losers.


----------



## glendmar

Hi sir I'm trying to contact you but I can't. I hope you can read this message. I'm still new with this website that is why I don't know how to PM you directly.


----------



## Johnny b

Hello glendmar.

Are you addressing me or the thread starter?


----------



## Johnny b

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news...p-thinks-g-7-flap-help-kim-jong-un/689388002/

*Donald Trump thinks G-7 flap will help with Kim Jong Un; others aren't so sure *

The artist associated with The Art of the Deal, just allowed a Communist dictator to drive a wedge between our best allies and the US with out a threatening comment or demand. 
In Trump's twisted mind, it was important to break friendly relation with allies as a means to impress a Communist dictator that has consistently in the past called for a nuclear attack on the US.

And Trump did this on his own initiative with out any input from Kim Jong Un, as a means to impress the dictator.

Apparently the term 'negotiate' means something other than the definition of the term, in Trumptopia.

https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/negotiate

Maybe that 'famous' book should be rewritten and titled The Art of Surrender (to dictatorships)


----------



## Wino

The fiasco at G6-1 shows weakness, not strength in our Excellance of Petulance and how petty he can be. If I were Un I'd not give up my nukes to this idiot. Me thinks Turnip worshipers are confusing "deft" with "daft" !!


----------



## Guyzer

Wino said:


> The fiasco at G6-1 shows weakness, not strength in our Excellance of Petulance and how petty he can be. If I were Un I'd not give up my nukes to this idiot. Me thinks Turnip worshipers are confusing "deft" with "daft" !!


It is my Canadian opinion that anyone that thought Trump was actually coming to participate in a positive manner has rocks in their head.
I believe his intentions were to thump his chest and put on a show for his republican supporters back home. To that end he succeeded.
His Twitter tirade on Sunday was the cherry on top for ya'll R's ( whoever you may be ). What a fool he made of himself. He wanted world attention he sure got it.
Nothing more.... Nothing Less...
I feel sorry for you... I really do.


----------



## ekim68

And Mitch does nothing and yet it's supposed to be His Job....So much for Democracy...


----------



## Johnny b

Guyzer said:


> It is my Canadian opinion that anyone that thought Trump was actually coming to participate in a positive manner has rocks in their head.
> I believe his intentions were to thump his chest and put on a show for his republican supporters back home. To that end he succeeded.
> His Twitter tirade on Sunday was the cherry on top for ya'll R's ( whoever you may be ). What a fool he made of himself. He wanted world attention he sure got it.
> Nothing more.... Nothing Less...
> I feel sorry for you... I really do.


I am sorry to see such malevolence in our current government expressed to our good neighbors and allies.

Watching the news, it appears Trump is already giving away concessions to Kim with out any reciprocity or even a hint of negotiations.

It certainly has the appearance of intentionally dividing/weakening our society, alienating our allies and good friends and supporting dictatorships.

I suspect this will not end well.


----------



## Wino

It does appear Little Rocketman has fleeced the Dotard.


----------



## Guyzer

Johnny-be-Good said:


> I suspect this will not end well.


It will only end well when he's out of office.

It's the ordinary joe like you and I that are going to suffer because of the things he's undoing. To
make matters worse he favors a tyrant over his decades long true allies. Maybe it's because he's one and can identify easily with him???
You guys are in a " HOLE " heap of troubleand we're getting slowly sucked into it.
Oy Vey!


----------



## 2twenty2

https://www.thestar.com/opinion/editorial_cartoon/2018/06/12/moudakis-june-12-2018.html


----------



## Johnny b

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news...on-accused-illegal-conduct-lawsuit/701494002/

* N.Y. attorney general sues Donald Trump, Trump Foundation, accusing them of illegal conduct *



> New York's attorney general is seeking to shut down President Donald Trump's charitable foundation, accusing the president of using the charity to advance his self-interests and boost his 2016 presidential campaign.


Shocking, just shocking I tell you 

Wait a minute.

That's a lawsuit against our current President. Maybe not so shocking......LOL!


----------



## Johnny b

* President Trump directs Defense Department to 'immediately begin the process' of establishing 'space force' as sixth military branch *

https://www.cnbc.com/2018/06/18/pre...ing-space-force-as-sixth-military-branch.html

All that and tax cuts, Too. 

Maybe Trump can coerce the Mexicans to pay for it


----------



## Wino

I'm surprised the idiot didn't call them 'Starship Troopers' or 'Space Storm Troopers'. LOL Little Donnie playing with his Star Wars toys, again. Gag a maggot!!


----------



## Johnny b

Bizarre beyond belief on many counts, the US government declares baby formula is better for infants than a mother's milk and is even ready to go to implementing foreign policy to enforce it.

https://www.usatoday.com/story/life...g-resolution-world-health-assembly/766516002/

* U.S. threatens nation over world breastfeeding resolution, shocking health officials *



> United States delegates sought to weaken a World Health Assembly resolution encouraging breast-feeding this spring, the New York Times reported Sunday, backing the interests of infant-formula manufacturers instead.





> If Ecuador didn't drop the resolution, Washington would withdraw military aid and issue punishing trade measures.


What a wack-a-doodle President the US has.

Kidnapping and disappearing children seeking asylum to demanding babies be fed according to baby-formula industry standards.
Turning friendly allies into trade war combatants.
Embracing our enemies as if they are friends.
Threatening US businesses that are harmed by a trade war and won't comply to modeling their business models in destructive manners.

A President so immoral, evangelicals seem to see it as a positive.

wack-a-doodle indeed.


----------



## Wino

I'm not speechless, I just have no words I can post here.


----------



## Johnny b

This is rich.

Using twisted logic, Trump argues it was all Obama's fault that let the Russian hackers elect Donald Trump.

Ha ha?

* Trump blames Obama for Russian hacking of Democratic email server *

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news...sian-hackings-before-putin-meeting/785205002/

What really puzzles me is how the Trump supporters could be so gullible as to believe such an incredible spin.


----------



## valis

Nothing puzzling about that. These are the type of folk who unabashedly believe in an omnipotent invisible being, yet when seeing a sign that says 'wet paint' have to touch it to verify.

AND they elected him.


----------



## Johnny b

valis said:


> Nothing puzzling about that. These are the type of folk who unabashedly believe in an omnipotent invisible being, yet when seeing a sign that says 'wet paint' have to touch it to verify.
> 
> AND they elected him.


(sigh!)

Yeah, many say they believe and many can recite or paraphrase out of a Bible the reasons why you and I must agree to their demands.

For the weak minded, it seems very easy to become motivated by the politics of the day that support their religious quests.

Acting with out thinking makes them look more like cults than religious groups.


----------



## Johnny b

Under the Trump administration, detaining the children of families and children on their own, seeking asylum has grown into a very large business.

* Detaining Immigrant Kids Is Now a Billion-Dollar Industry *

http://time.com/5338098/family-separation-immigration-trump-billion-dollar-industry/


----------



## valis

that cult comment is not, IMO, that far from the truth, sadly.


----------



## Chawbacon

Yikes! It appears that I have stumbled into an Anti-Trump rant thread. Admittedly, some of the vitriol is deserved.

However, you guys need to stop accepting liberal news articles as gospel and exercise more objective judgement and intellectual honesty when it comes to the immigration detainment issues. No one here observed that the reported time frame of increased border spending spanned 10 years, while our President has only been in office for one year and six month. Also, no one here has noted that spending for border enforcement was bound to increase significantly with the zero tolerance policy enforcement on illegal border crossings (a fact that our President probably overlooked prior to monetary impact).

Regardless, all news media (left and right) are downright disingenuous about why the reported detainment and separation actions are occurring. Now before you light up your flame throwers, please put on your critical thinking hats and actually read the Flores vs. Meese agreement, then consider what the base issue was in 1997 (Bill Clinton Era) and what precipitated the lawsuit. 
Hint - There is some interesting historical reading on this subject.

Flores vs. Meese Agreement
https://www.aclu.org/files/pdfs/immigrants/flores_v_meese_agreement.pdf

Have fun.


----------



## Johnny b

Denying reality is irrational.

And I suggest you read all of the pdf yourself.
Especially V1-14, V11-19

And I found that in less than a 2 minute skim 



> Yikes! It appears that I have stumbled into an Anti-Trump rant thread. Admittedly, some of the vitriol is deserved.


Yes, you do appear to be stumbling. 



> However, you guys need to stop accepting liberal news articles as gospel and exercise more objective judgement and intellectual honesty when it comes to the immigration detainment issues.


And I think you need to be honest with yourself.
Trump has admitted to his draconian legislation he wrote from the Oval Office( or was it Twitter  ) when he ordered seized children tobe reunited. A Judge even put a deadline on it, but officials are dragging their feet in complying.

Regurgitating the mantra of a paranoid politician as investigations into Russian interference of our electoral process only get closer and closer to the Oval Office is only the helpless plea to ignore his awkward situation and continue to 'do business' as planned.



> Regardless, all news media (left and right) are downright disingenuous about why the reported detainment and separation actions are occurring.


So, your argument is to ignore the situation because you don't trust news gathering and want to fall back on cherry picking a document written over 20 years ago?

And then call it 'critical thinking'?

How about there is something wrong with our society that has allowed the immigration problem get to the point of abusing children and their families seeking asylum as a solution for a problem not as intense 20 some years ago?



> Have fun.


Reality doesn't seem to work that way.


----------



## valis

If you think I need a lesson in critical thinking to know that Trump is quite literally a menace to society, I have no idea what to say. The man is rolling back decades of progress over his ego.


----------



## Chawbacon

Jo,

I hate to do this; but, I will have to give you a D. Simply because I laughed at the stumbling comment!

Skimming or reading Cliff Notes will not suffice to reach a substantive argument, or conclusion, for this assignment. Since I am a nice guy, I will allow you to resubmit your assignment, minus one letter grade.

Now to address some of your specific concerns:



Johnny-be-Good said:


> And I suggest you read all of the pdf yourself.
> Especially V1-14, V11-19


I have read the PDF in it's entirety several times, and you skim out 2 paragraphs, not in total context. And then accuse me of cherry picking later on in your response… Nice Trick!



Johnny-be-Good said:


> Trump has admitted to his draconian legislation he wrote from the Oval Office( or was it Twitter
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ) when he ordered seized children tobe reunited. A Judge even put a deadline on it, but officials are dragging their feet in complying.


I have never agreed with the long-standing policy of separating illegal alien children from their illegal alien parents; however, our President's executive action that reunites these children with their parents is a violation of the Flores Agreement, which opens the government up to unnecessary litigation. This is an issue that must be set aright by congress, where the subsequent political/legal systems can validate the created law.



Johnny-be-Good said:


> Regurgitating the mantra of a paranoid politician as investigations into Russian interference of our electoral process only get closer and closer to the Oval Office is only the helpless plea to ignore his awkward situation and continue to 'do business' as planned.


Russia has nothing to do with this specific assignment. Stay focused. You can do it!



Johnny-be-Good said:


> So, your argument is to ignore the situation because you don't trust news gathering and want to fall back on cherry picking a document written over 20 years ago?


I never said, or insinuated, that ignoring this subject is the solution and I firmly believe in fact checking both sides of the argument; because, I often find that the truth often lies somewhere in the middle.

Even though the Flores Agreement is over 20 years old, it is the focal point of the problem. Understanding the circumstances surrounding the creation of this document, the motives of the players, expectations of the results, and the popular response of the time; will allow you to see the truth through the Republicans and Democrats.



Johnny-be-Good said:


> How about there is something wrong with our society that has allowed the immigration problem get to the point of abusing children and their families seeking asylum as a solution for a problem not as intense 20 some years ago?


I agree; but, Asylum is a different subject…. Hmmm… Might make that a future class.



valis said:


> If you think I need a lesson in critical thinking to know that Trump is quite literally a menace to society, I have no idea what to say. The man is rolling back decades of progress over his ego.


Valis,

I have to give you an F on your assignment.

I am nowhere near fond of the man that constitutes our President; however, the assignment is on the specific issue of the separation of illegal alien families, not an open invitation for judgments on his questionable ego.

I will offer you the same opportunity to resubmit the assignment, minus one letter grade.

Now try again guys, I have confidence that you can root this one out.


----------



## valis

And I give you an F for ego, seeing as we are happily judging each other on arbitrary conditions. You do not know me, nor I you; this is the reason I've not made any knee-jerk statements as to what I think of the grey matter between your ears. 

Once I get to know you better, then I might sound off. I may be dense enough to bend light but I eventually figure it out. 

Bottom line? Trump is an egomaniacal disaster looking for a landing spot. 

Again, nothing personal, I just dislike being judged on something I wasnt aware was a contest.


----------



## Chawbacon

valis said:


> And I give you an F for ego, seeing as we are happily judging each other on arbitrary conditions. You do not know me, nor I you; this is the reason I've not made any knee-jerk statements as to what I think of the grey matter between your ears.
> 
> Once I get to know you better, then I might sound off. I may be dense enough to bend light but I eventually figure it out.
> 
> Bottom line? Trump is an egomaniacal disaster looking for a landing spot.
> 
> Again, nothing personal, I just dislike being judged on something I wasnt aware was a contest.


Hey Valis,

No contest here and no offense was intended. Just using a little humor to keep the subject matter from straying off course. But an F for ego... Gee... Even I reserve that for Trump.

Just FYI the grey matter between my ears is undoubtedly convoluted, dense, and well... grey.

Later!


----------



## valis

IMHO, and only mine, he is among the most dangerous people on the planet. The fact that my compatriots elected him not only astounds me, but it also very much depresses me and shows how little I know of my compatriots. Trump operates on hate.

I seem to recall a lot of dictators doing just that.

Again, and I cannot stress this enough; the fact that he was lawfully elected really shows how divided and immature this country is.


----------



## Johnny b

> jo,
> 
> I hate to do this; but, I will have to give you a D. Simply because I laughed at the stumbling comment!






> Skimming or reading Cliff Notes will not suffice to reach a substantive argument, or conclusion, for this assignment.


You posted the source, not me.
And now you find your position difficult to defend because you obviously cherry picked elements.
But the elements I pointed out obviously conflict with the current mentality of the alt-right and Trump.
Ignoring them doesn't make you correct, only disingenuous. 



> Since I am a nice guy


How can the trait of condoning abusing another human being make one a 'nice guy'?
Is this a logic 'trick' like in a logical fallacy or 'critical thinking' gone insane? (  )



> Now to address some of your specific concerns:


I don't see a list.



> I have read the PDF in it's entirety several times, and you skim out 2 paragraphs, not in total context.


Are you claiming those two issues are not in context to the issue of how the INS conducts it's policies towards children held on issues of illegal immigration?
I have hole in my head the size of my fist and easily figured that out 
What's your excuse ? 



> And then accuse me of cherry picking later on in your response… Nice Trick!


Exceptions to broad claims are such a hassle.
Too bad for you I caught them 



> I have never agreed with the long-standing policy of separating illegal alien children from their illegal alien parents;


So?
I don't see anything posted in this thread claiming you did.
However, it is a good question to ask of you. Do you agree with all the results Trump is trying to impose?



> however, our President's executive action that reunites these children with their parents is a violation of the Flores Agreement,



Wow. what a poor representation of 'critical thinking'.
Hint: Trump violated the Flores v Meese agreement before rescinding his draconian 'desktop' legislation. He admitted to it by rescinding what essentially was kidnapping and disappearing of many of those children even it happens to only be temporary. 

That was exactly what I referred to in V1-14, V11-19.

Typical Trumptonian logic.



> which opens the government up to unnecessary litigation.


In your opinion, which has become suspect because of various logical fallacies and committing crimes against critical thinking 



> Russia has nothing to do with this specific assignment.


It does relate to your whining about news sources 



> I never said, or insinuated, that ignoring this subject is the solution and I firmly believe in fact checking both sides of the argument; because, I often find that the truth often lies somewhere in the middle.


Isn't a little late to start being reasonable?  



> Even though the Flores Agreement is over 20 years old, it is the focal point of the problem.


I'm all 'ears'.



> Understanding the circumstances surrounding the creation of this document, the motives of the players, expectations of the results, and the popular response of the time; will allow you to see the truth through the Republicans and Democrats.


Ah, avoiding the inhumane treatment of human beings has just left the 'stage' 
and now you want to compare politicians of the past to politicians of the present while seeking 'truth'......through the eyes of said politicians. And sources should not be accessed from the news media.

Do you really understand the concept of 'critical thinking' as you keep trying to lead this discussion astray? 

Take a hint at the title of this thread and the topic being currently discussed.

And you presented Trump's irrational claims of the news media had nothing to do with the current topic. If you can't resource information, how in the world are you going to even be able to discuss: * the truth through the Republicans and Democrats. *?



> I agree; but, Asylum is a different subject…. Hmmm… Might make that a future class.


WOW!
The topic revolves around the issue of considering those seeking asylum being the same as those just seeking better finances and living conditions and those with criminal intent.
Trump argues to punish all the same with 'ZERO tolerance' as a means to stop all illegal immigration.

That is THE POINT!

Trump's legislating from Twitter and his desktop has been toxic to our society and many of our society approve of it.



> Now try again guys, I have confidence that you can root this one out.


Cute, but full of holes


----------



## Johnny b

valis said:


> IMHO, and only mine, he is among the most dangerous people on the planet. The fact that my compatriots elected him not only astounds me, but it also very much depresses me and shows how little I know of my compatriots. Trump operates on hate.
> 
> ............................


Disturbing indeed.

On the world front.

'National Security' claims to attack trade partners many of them allies in long standing while appeasing the Russians while their attempt at globalization continues( sorry Paq ) and initiating a trade war with China that can potentially hurt the US more than help it.

Trump is probably the most divisive President to hold office and that says a lot after GW Bush and Obama.


----------



## Johnny b

Someone's getting too big for their britches.

* Donald Trump vs. CNN ... again. Now on a world stage and with a hint of totalitarianism. *

https://www.usatoday.com/story/opin...terview-cnn-president-trump-column/786369002/



> "CNN is fake news. I don't take questions from CNN. ... Let's go to a real network." At which point he called on John Roberts of ... Fox News.


Even John Roberts, a reporter from Fox isn't buying that.

https://www.thedailybeast.com/fox-n...n-after-trump-refuses-question-from-fake-news

The issue seems to have started here:
* 
Trump takes war on 'fake news' to UK - and tells towering, easily debunked lies
*
https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2018/jul/13/trump-fake-news-fox-cnn-theresa-may


> Donald Trump took his war against "fake news" to the UK on Friday, using the term as a means to row back on his criticisms of the British prime minister in an interview with the Sun, and to refuse once again to take a question from CNN at a press conference.





> Standing next to May, Trump opened the event by saying the interview he had given to the British tabloid newspaper the Sun, in which he criticised May's handling of Brexit and threatened to kill a prospective US-British trade deal, was "fake news".
> 
> Trump had done so, and the Sun had audio tape to prove it. But for the president, when he uses the term "fake news", it does not only mean news whose accuracy he questions; it also means any news that is negative for him.


That last line says it all.
And propagandists and small minds carry on as if the reported news in question is actually faked.


----------



## steppenwolf

8 years i guess then 32 more years of "worse"republicans


----------



## Johnny b

steppenwolf said:


> 8 years i guess then 32 more years of "worse"republicans


I might respond if I could figure out what you are trying to convey.


----------



## steppenwolf

40 years of republicans


----------



## Johnny b

steppenwolf said:


> 40 years of republicans


Don't keep it a secret, what are you trying to tell us


----------



## Johnny b

* Trump says doesn't 'see any reason why' Russia would have meddled in 2016 U.S. election *

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news...eddling-2016-presidential-election/788219002/

Says the guy that benefited from the Russian attack on our electoral process.


----------



## Johnny b

Just on CNN TV, video of Trump standing next to Putin on a podium, argued it was more important to know where H Clinton's email server went and what was on it ....than information already known about Russia's cyber attack on our electorial process.

Chuck Hagel on CNN:


> Trump failed America today


----------



## Johnny b

* Republicans blast Trump meeting with Putin as 'shameful' and 'sign of weakness' *

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news...-call-trump-putin-meeting-shameful/788752002/

Too much to copy and paste.
Well worth the read.


----------



## Johnny b

arrested Russian spy, NRA, and Trump

Connections?
* Russian who operated pro-gun group arrested for acting as foreign agent *
https://www.marketwatch.com/story/r...rested-for-acting-as-foreign-agent-2018-07-16



> The Justice Department charged a Russian national with conspiracy to act as an agent of the Russian Federation within the United States without prior notification. Mariia Butina, 29, who lives in Washington, D.C., was arrested on Sunday and charged with developing relationships with U.S. persons and infiltrating organizations having influence in American politics, for the purpose of advancing the interests of the Russian Federation. Butina ran a Russian pro-gun group that was investigated over whether it helped funnel money to President Donald Trump via the National Rifle Association, according to a McClatchy report.


And remember, Reagan's fixer in the Iran Contra deal was Ollie North who is now the head of the NRA. Maybe important 

The McClatchy article:

* FBI investigating whether Russian money went to NRA to help Trump *
https://www.mcclatchydc.com/news/nation-world/national/article195231139.html



> WASHINGTON
> 
> The FBI is investigating whether a top Russian banker with ties to the Kremlin illegally funneled money to the National Rifle Association to help Donald Trump win the presidency, two sources familiar with the matter have told McClatchy.
> 
> FBI counterintelligence investigators have focused on the activities of Alexander Torshin, the deputy governor of Russia's central bank who is known for his close relationships with both Russian President Vladimir Putin and the NRA, the sources said.
> 
> It is illegal to use foreign money to influence federal elections.


Further:


> The extent to which the FBI has evidence of money flowing from Torshin to the NRA, or of the NRA's participation in the transfer of funds, could not be learned.
> 
> However, the NRA reported spending a record $55 million on the 2016 elections, including $30 million to support Trump - triple what the group devoted to backing Republican Mitt Romney in the 2012 presidential race. Most of that was money was spent by an arm of the NRA that is not required to disclose its donors.


Such a sweet young thing to be going to prison.


----------



## Johnny b

steppenwolf said:


> 8 years i guess then 32 more years of "worse"republicans


Obviously you don't intend to explain what you meant.

So I''ll guess.

John Boehner, former Republican who served as the 53rd Speaker of the United States House of Representatives from 2011 to 2015 and was considered a well respected conservative had this to say about the politics of the current Republican party, which I happen to currently be a member of, but not for long.

* Boehner: 'There is no Republican Party,' only a 'Trump Party' *
https://www.cnn.com/2018/05/31/politics/john-boehner-republican-party/index.html

CNN fake news? Well, try this out:

https://www.politico.com/story/2018/05/31/john-boehner-republican-trump-party-615357


> Former House Speaker John Boehner declared Thursday that the Republican Party as he once knew it is gone, replaced by what he called the "Trump party."


More fake-o news?

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news...says-theyre-being-held-hostage/?noredirect=on


> Boehner's message appears to be twofold, with an implicit criticism directed at his former colleagues: That President Trump has taken over the Republican Party, and that Republicans are letting him do it.


Can't be fake news because even Fox posted this:

http://insider.foxnews.com/2018/06/01/john-boehner-there-no-republican-party-theres-trump-party
In big bold letters:
* Former Speaker Boehner: There Is No Republican Party, There's Only a 'Trump Party' *

Perhaps you meant 40 more years of the Trump party.

I have doubts the US could last that long with his kind of leadership 
He appears to love dictatorships too much and he's actually not a very good businessman on top of that.


----------



## Johnny b

Lay it on thick for your 'true' believers, Donald.

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/politics/2018/07/17/trump-addresses-summit-criticism/790354002/



> During his walk-back attempt at the White House, Trump said he misspoke during his news conference with Putin, and that he meant to say he saw no reason why it "wouldn't" be Russia that interfered in the election. "In a key sentence in my remarks, I said the word 'would' instead of 'wouldn't,'" Trump told reporters.


I wonder if he realizes where he's going other than looking more foolish with that kind of back-pedaling?

If anyone really believes that, please then explain how someone that intellectually incompetent should be responsible for the future of our society and those living in it.


----------



## Johnny b

A thought....

Donald's quotes of late are likely to come back on him with a vengeance the next presidential election and I suspect his contradictions and denials are all caught on video tape . Oh my!


----------



## valis

I mean, for the USA to cone to this state....I would laugh if I wasnt crying. It is soooo comical watching this. George Carlin would have LOVED this.


----------



## Johnny b

'Laughter' in this case is a result of truly dark humor.

On a dark tone, there seems to be some chatter by the Russian military that Trump has made some deals with Putin during their private talks concerning at least Syria and our intel and defense officials seem to know nothing of it at this time.


----------



## Wino

Would; wood; wooden; wouldn't?? Doubt our traitorous ignorant POTUS can distinguish the difference. What a putz - not to mention a stain on humanity.


----------



## Johnny b

^^^^^ Indeed.


----------



## Littlefield

Russia's redhead girl above - Red Sparrow. LOL


----------



## Johnny b

Littlefield said:


> Russia's redhead girl above - Red Sparrow. LOL


Yep


----------



## Chawbacon

Y


Wino said:


> Would; wood; wooden; wouldn't?? Doubt our traitorous ignorant POTUS can distinguish the difference. What a putz - not to mention a stain on humanity.


Yeah! This is quite ugly for our Country.

Personally, I do not believe that our President misspoke during the conference. It is painfully obvious that our President does not have confidence in our intelligence agencies leadership groups to produce intelligence products without significant political bias. While not having this confidence is a sad situation that has been further exacerbated by the public display of said lack of confidence, only the future will tell if our Presidents concerns are justified. I understand the desire to set a positive tone at these international press conferences; however, our President would have been better off to clearly state his obvious bias on this subject and move on.


----------



## Johnny b

More on Trump's Red Sparrow:

* Accused Russian agent Mariia Butina tried to trade sex for influence, say prosecutors *

https://www.nbcnews.com/news/crime-...-butina-tried-trade-sex-influence-say-n892426



> WASHINGTON - The gunslinging Russian woman accused of cozying up to American officials to infiltrate the U.S. political system - at the behest of her Kremlin-linked mentor and with the help of her American boyfriend - allegedly tried to trade sex for influence.
> 
> The "Red Sparrow" scenario was unveiled Wednesday in a government memorandum that laid out the reasons why prosecutors believe Mariia Butina, 29, should remain jailed until trial.


* Accused Russian Spy's Boy Toy Is a Serial Fraud: Lawsuits *
https://www.thedailybeast.com/accused-russian-spys-boy-toy-is-a-serial-fraud-lawsuits



> This isn't the first time Paul Erickson, the Republican political consultant at the center of a Russian espionage probe, has found himself in middle of some drama.
> 
> Erickson-who served as a media adviser to a famously emasculated porn actor, a producer for one of Hollywood's schlockiest anti-communist movies, and a lobbyist for one of Africa's most brutal dictators-has also been sued multiple times after two business partners say he defrauded them on investments in his company.


* Alleged Russian Spy Maria Butina Romanced GOP Powerbroker, Feds Say *
https://www.thedailybeast.com/maria...russian-intelligence-prosecutors-say?ref=home


> The revelation of Butina's arrest and charging this week opened another front in a multifaceted saga of Russian influence in American politics. While Butina and her alleged work on behalf of Russia touched the Trump campaign (she tried to set up a 2016 meeting between Trump and Vladimir Putin and in 2015 prompted Trump to say he would "get along very nicely with Putin"), her activities in America went deeper. Through essentially infiltrating the NRA over her stated interest in Russian gun rights, Butina sought to use the supremely influential U.S. gun lobby to pivot U.S. right-wing politics in a pro-Russia direction, an FBI affidavit alleged Monday.


* 'Putin's Favorite Congressman' Now Engulfed in NRA Spy Case *
https://www.thedailybeast.com/maria...arges-touch-reps-rohrabacher-meeks?ref=author

That would be GOP Congressman Dana Rohrabacher.
Too much to copy and paste. 
But an interesting read.

Looks like Trump may be sharing treason with some other fellow Trumpsters.


----------



## Johnny b

Chawbacon said:


> Y
> 
> Yeah! This is quite ugly for our Country.
> 
> Personally, I do not believe that our President misspoke during the conference. It is painfully obvious that our President does not have confidence in our intelligence agencies leadership groups to produce intelligence products without significant political bias. While not having this confidence is a sad situation that has been further exacerbated by the public display of said lack of confidence, only the future will tell if our Presidents concerns are justified. I understand the desire to set a positive tone at these international press conferences; however, our President would have been better off to clearly state his obvious bias on this subject and move on.





> our President would have been better off to clearly state his obvious bias on this subject and move on.


It would have been honest to do so.
But Trump is in a unique situation. His bias could be construed as evidence of treason by the general public as Mueller's indictments get closer to the President with implications of collusion with Russian officials for election support.

I don't see Trump doing much more than constantly playing a smoke and mirrors game.
Politically, and from a legal perspective, it's probably his only practical move.


----------



## Johnny b

Interesting thought comes to mind.

Trump has claimed he can pardon himself.
Does anyone think he can pardon himself if found guilty of treason?


----------



## Chawbacon

Johnny-be-Good said:


> His bias could be construed as evidence of treason by the general public as Mueller's indictments get closer to the President with implications of collusion with Russian officials for election support.


I hear what you are saying Johnny. To be clear though, having a bias, or opinion, towards an agency's trustworthiness would not be considered a treasonous act within the US Justice system. An established bias could be used as a piece of evidence in an overall effort to investigate, and as a supporting piece of evidence towards other crimes.


----------



## Chawbacon

Johnny-be-Good said:


> Interesting thought comes to mind.
> 
> Trump has claimed he can pardon himself.
> Does anyone think he can pardon himself if found guilty of treason?


In a strict legal setting, yes, a sitting U.S. President has the power to their own self. With the only exceptions being impeachment and the inability to pardon an individual breaking law of another Country.

ARTICLE II, SECTION 2, CLAUSE 1 of the U.S. Constitution reads:

"The President...shall have Power to grant Reprieves and Pardons for Offences against the United States, except in Cases of Impeachment."

Should any U.S. President choose to self pardon, Congress would have to take actions towards amending the U.S. Constitution preventing this type of occurrence. Note this would not stop a warranted impeachment should this type of event ever manifest.


----------



## Littlefield

Treason against the United States," reads Article III, Section 3, "shall consist only in levying war against them, or in adhering to their enemies, giving them aid and comfort."

Trump will never be found guilty of treason and Mueller will not bring charges against him for it.
We are not at war with Russia and even though some pundits say cyber crimes aganist us are war the US is not in an armed conflict with Russia. Nobody has been killed by hacking and there has not been physical destruction against our cities.
Also, we still work with Russia on the International Space Station.
It is laughable to think Trump will be charged with treason.


----------



## Wino

sTrump says he chastised Pooty in their private 2 hr. conversation. It would be a first for this belligerent bellicose dip who always openly chastises our allies or his enemies, so I doubt the liar said jack to Pooty. He did, however, give Pooty's butt a virtual French kiss in their presser for all the world to see.

LF - you are correct he will never be impeached for treason, nor suffer any consequences for his actions against this nation nor will Mueller bring charges - outside of possibly a non-indicted co-conspirator. Regardless of the outcomes, he will remain a scum bag forever.


----------



## Johnny b

Chawbacon said:


> I hear what you are saying Johnny. To be clear though, having a bias, or opinion, towards an agency's trustworthiness would not be considered a treasonous act within the US Justice system. An established bias could be used as a piece of evidence in an overall effort to investigate, and as a supporting piece of evidence towards other crimes.


That's exactly why I phrased it


> construed as evidence of treason by the general public


And as to legalities, your posting


> An established bias could be used as a piece of evidence in an overall effort to investigate, and as a supporting piece of evidence towards other crimes.


Would present motive for those crimes.

As I pointed out, Trump has two issues to address, the politics of re-election and the law.
And being open and honest hurts him in both.


----------



## Johnny b

Chawbacon said:


> In a strict legal setting, yes, a sitting U.S. President has the power to their own self. With the only exceptions being impeachment and the inability to pardon an individual breaking law of another Country.
> 
> ARTICLE II, SECTION 2, CLAUSE 1 of the U.S. Constitution reads:
> 
> "The President...shall have Power to grant Reprieves and Pardons for Offences against the United States, except in Cases of Impeachment."
> 
> Should any U.S. President choose to self pardon, Congress would have to take actions towards amending the U.S. Constitution preventing this type of occurrence. Note this would not stop a warranted impeachment should this type of event ever manifest.




An bsolutely correct answer.

And you probably knew there is a 'but' coming LOL!

With the upcoming possibility to stack the Supreme Court in his favor, A President that already challenged Constitutional Law and often slapped down for it, is likely to try a 'pardon' maneuver.
But could he pull it off?
Will Trump even now be able to install Kavanaugh?

Not being a lawyer, or soothsayer,I really don't know.
A lot of questionable events have gone on for decades, unchecked, though not to this extreme.

I never thought or even considered a US President could give duplicitous support to an enemy nation and survive longer than a day in office with out resigning.
But times change


----------



## Johnny b

Littlefield said:


> Treason against the United States," reads Article III, Section 3, "shall consist only in levying war against them, or in adhering to their enemies, giving them aid and comfort."
> 
> Trump will never be found guilty of treason and Mueller will not bring charges against him for it.
> We are not at war with Russia and even though some pundits say cyber crimes aganist us are war the US is not in an armed conflict with Russia. Nobody has been killed by hacking and there has not been physical destruction against our cities.
> Also, we still work with Russia on the International Space Station.
> It is laughable to think Trump will be charged with treason.





> Treason against the United States," reads Article III, Section 3, "shall consist only in levying war against them, or in adhering to their enemies, giving them aid and comfort."


The first element already exists with Russia.
Not on a battlefield in conventional terms.
In a technological world dependent upon computerization. The networking of civilian businesses, civilian utilities and military endeavors and strategies. And of course the concept of a democratic society that depends on the same technology in the election process.
It's called a cyber war.
Fewer individuals die, but societies can be pressured to submit under such circumstances.

This is what Trump faces.



> Trump will never be found guilty of treason and Mueller will not bring charges against him for it.


It could play out that way.
Nixon took that path and it was better for our nation.
Resignation.
But I don't expect that to happen with Trump.
He does present the image of being above the law in all regards and many supporters seem to agree.



> We are not at war with Russia


Thank you.
You have just shown blind support by denying reality.

Perhaps that is the greatest danger to our free and democratic society, even beyond the duplicity of Trump and the aggressions of Russia.
Denial.



> It is laughable to think Trump will be charged with treason.


Thank you, comrade.


----------



## Johnny b

Wino said:


> ...................... Regardless of the outcomes, he will remain a scum bag forever.


It's how he built his business empire, how he manages his private life and how he does his duties as President.

Even his obvious contradictions on tape are consistent to his character


----------



## Johnny b

Never thought I'd see anything like this, either.

* Why is Trump open to letting Russia interrogate Americans, including former U.S. ambassador McFaul? *

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news...oning-former-u-s-ambassador-mcfaul/799041002/

Way too much interesting material to copy and paste.
Definitely worth reading.


----------



## Johnny b

So?
Is this an invitation to Russia to interfere and dominate one NATO member after another until the US is, as they say, 'The Last Man Standing' ?
From a practical standpoint, it would be easier and more efficient for the Russians to take on one member at a time rather than face a consolidated rebuttal by all NATO members as a unified force.

*Trump Questions the Core of NATO: Mutual Defense, Including Montenegro *

https://www.nytimes.com/2018/07/18/world/europe/trump-nato-self-defense-montenegro.html



> In an interview that aired Tuesday evening with the Fox News host Tucker Carlson, Mr. Trump appeared to suggest that the NATO mutual defense compact is confusing, particularly the question of why an American would have to defend a small country like Montenegro, which is more than 5,000 miles away.
> 
> Mr. Trump has long raised questions about the future of the United States' commitment to NATO, a defense treaty that was established to stave off aggression from what was then the Soviet Union. Montenegro joined the alliance in 2017, a year after Russia plotted a coup to overthrow Montenegro's government and replace it with one that would be hostile toward NATO.


So the question arises:
Can/should Donald Trump sit as the President of the United Stated, a leader of the free world, and be an agent working for the benefit of Russian aggression....all at the same time?

Seems to me there is a conflict of interest. ( understatement  )

And what about a news source that advances Trump's position?
Have they been invaded by, perhaps, one or more Russian agents, and like the NRA, even a red sparrow ?

Maybe that news program should be retitled 'Fox and ex-comrades' 

Just say'n lol!


----------



## RT

Not going to participate in this thread, other than to say I have an opinion...
Don't recall a President of the USA doing so much back tracking, changing horses in mid stream, and straddling the the fence...

"fake news" and all that BS.
If ever he's criticized, simply points the finger at some one else.

Some folks like him, I don't.
Just my opinion, you like him or you don't.
Just don't see why anyone would like him.


I respect this country and all that it stands for...I just don't think the right man for the job is at the helm...
Just my two centavos worth,
and that is all I have to say, without going ballistic, and then becoming nasty.


----------



## Johnny b

Interesting article here:
* President Trump continues to blame media for avalanche of criticism over his Vladimir Putin summit *
https://www.usatoday.com/story/news...-media-his-vladimir-putin-problems/799301002/

where Trump blames his woes on the 'Fake News' reporting on what he's actually up to.



> "The Fake News Media wants so badly to see a major confrontation with Russia, even a confrontation that could lead to war," Trump said at the start of a morning tweet storm. "They are pushing so recklessly hard and hate the fact that I'll probably have a good relationship with Putin. We are doing MUCH better than any other country!"
> 
> Analysts pointed out that there are many options between embracing Putin and going to war, and that Trump has provided conflicting signals about whether he believes the U.S. intelligence on Russian efforts to undermine the 2016 U.S. election.


It seems rather odd to claim that the stance to uphold national sovereignty in the face of rampant Russian aggression is a call to war. That would be the Russian call to war.
But Trumpsters do seem to rely on their blinders and never question what is really going on.



> The day after that, asked whether Russia posed a threat to the United States, Trump said "no" - though hours later he told CBS News in an interview he gave a stern warning to Putin not to interfere in this year's congressional elections, a different take on the meeting than he provided previously.


It's not that confusing. The public is simply being played by Trump.


----------



## Johnny b

RT said:


> Not going to participate in this thread, other than to say I have an opinion...
> ..............................


Absolutely your right. I'd like to see more expression in the forum and that means from all angles.
Doesn't mean I'll agree, though 

IMO, there are factors at play that have always been with us, but have now entered the realm of extremisms.
Both right and left wing extremisms.
There's a lot of rationalizations on both sides to attack each other, while too often ignoring the problems of our times. Even creating more.

There is too much support for/in both particular parties just to have that party in power rather than addressing our problems in a practical manner.

Sensible compromise no longer exists. Hasn't even before Trump.

From believing in 'Change' with a halo to the bizarre Hermit Kingdom of Trump, there are no or at least few, positives.


----------



## Littlefield

Sorry, Johnny we are not at war with Russia and are not in an armed conflict with them. Under the law they are not our enemy. Trump has not waged war aganist the United States.
You keep that hope alive only by his foolish actions he will be charged with treason as it will never happen. LOL


----------



## Johnny b

Littlefield said:


> Sorry, Johnny we are not at war with Russia and are not in an armed conflict with them. Under the law they are not our enemy. Trump has not waged war aganist the United States.
> You keep that hope alive only by his foolish actions he will be charged with treason as it will never happen. LOL


That's only denial of reality and your interpretation of law.
Are you a constitutional lawyer? 
Didn't think so 

Trump has even had to backpedal about his original and many stated claims on Russia's interference in our elections. And he's done it in front of a cameras that even recorded those events 

Whether he is guilty of treason is yet to be determined by the Justice Department, but he's obviously sweating bullets as Mueller's investigation get's closer to his desk.
Those had better be American made bullets 

There's just no way you can put a happy face on this comrade 

Can/should Donald Trump sit as the President of the United Stated, a leader of the free world, and be an agent working for the benefit of Russian aggression....all at the same time?

Seems to me there is a conflict of interest.

If I take the term 'treason' out of the dialog, does that satisfy you Trumpsters?


----------



## Littlefield

Well at least you are backpedaling some about treason.
Maybe Bastiat our resident lawyer will come here and school why you are so wrong about the law. I have wasted enough time past my 3 post limit about the ludicrous idea of Trump being charged for treason. LOL
Also, you cannot defend Trump’s stupid actions but it is hilarious to see MSM go crazy and think our national security is so much at risk against Russia and the sky is falling.


----------



## Johnny b

Littlefield said:


> Well at least you are backpedaling some about treason.
> Maybe Bastiat our resident lawyer will come here and school why you are so wrong about the law. I have wasted enough time past my 3 post limit about the ludicrous idea of Trump being charged for treason. LOL
> Also, you cannot defend Trump's stupid actions but it is hilarious to see MSM go crazy and think our national security is so much at risk against Russia and the sky is falling.




And yet you avoided my question:


> Can/should Donald Trump sit as the President of the United Stated, a leader of the free world, and be an agent working for the benefit of Russian aggression....all at the same time?
> 
> Seems to me there is a conflict of interest.




All I did was delete the term, not the action.



> I have wasted enough time past my 3 post limit about the ludicrous idea of Trump being charged for treason. LOL


Yes, you did waste your time 



> Also, you cannot defend Trump's stupid actions


I think you must be confused. 
I've never defended Trump's duplicitous actions or his stupidity, really.



> but it is hilarious to see MSM go crazy and think our national security is so much at risk against Russia and the sky is falling


That's your opinion and you are welcome to own it. 
But, unfortunately for Trump, his statements have been caught on video for all to see and hear.And he seems to be only digging his hole deeper since Helsinki and his love fest with Putin.
True believers will always believe and it's accomplished by denying reality.

But of course, reality....she's a real..witch 
Just ask Manafort as he rattles his tin cup behind bars 

* Special counsel has nearly 500 pieces of evidence for Paul Manafort trial *
https://www.washingtonpost.com/loca...e8-a345-a1bf7847b375_story.html?noredirect=on

He seems to be looking a little green around the gills.










With all of Trump's current problems, will Manafort's pardon materialize?
That question has just got to be eating away at Paul.

So sad......

I forgot, who's up next after Paul


----------



## Chawbacon

Johnny-be-Good said:


> Can/should Donald Trump sit as the President of the United Stated, a leader of the free world, and be an agent working for the benefit of Russian aggression....all at the same time?


If it can be proven that any sitting U.S. President is an actual agent of Russia, evidence will be brought before Congress and that President will be impeached. Additionally, potential criminal actions are a possibility after completion of the impeachment process.

At this time, neither Congress nor the U.S. public have been presented with concrete evidence proving that our current President committed treason as defined by the laws of the U.S. If that evidence were available, I am positive that information would be out in the public way faster than a viral "covfefe" tweet and subsequent news coverage. 

While we are at it, shouldn't we also accuse our previous sitting U.S. President of treason? After all, he lied to Congress and the American public by not making a total of 1.7 billion dollar payoff to Iran public (under the guise of an interest payment and a failed contract delivery of military equipment from the 1970's), when Iran publicly advocates the destruction of the United States? The answer is no; because, no matter our opinion on the matter or that the U.S. is definitely not on friendly terms with Iran, the U.S. is/was not under a declaration of war with Iran. At this time, those payoffs to Iran are much closer to the conceptual spirit of aiding and abetting than a yet to be proven Russian collusion accusation.


----------



## Johnny b

Chawbacon said:


> If it can be proven that any sitting U.S. President is an actual agent of Russia, evidence will be brought before Congress and that President will be impeached. Additionally, potential criminal actions are a possibility after completion of the impeachment process.
> 
> At this time, neither Congress nor the U.S. public have been presented with concrete evidence proving that our current President committed treason as defined by the laws of the U.S. If that evidence were available, I am positive that information would be out in the public way faster than a viral "covfefe" tweet and subsequent news coverage.
> 
> While we are at it, shouldn't we also accuse our previous sitting U.S. President of treason? After all, he lied to Congress and the American public by not making a total of 1.7 billion dollar payoff to Iran public (under the guise of an interest payment and a failed contract delivery of military equipment from the 1970's), when Iran publicly advocates the destruction of the United States? The answer is no; because, no matter our opinion on the matter or that the U.S. is definitely not on friendly terms with Iran, the U.S. is/was not under a declaration of war with Iran. At this time, those payoffs to Iran are much closer to the conceptual spirit of aiding and abetting than a yet to be proven Russian collusion accusation.





> If it can be proven that any sitting U.S. President is an actual agent of Russia, evidence will be brought before Congress and that President will be impeached. Additionally, potential criminal actions are a possibility after completion of the impeachment process.


Agreed. It can't just be suggested. It has to be proven and beyond doubt.
A call for an investigation isn't proof.



> At this time, neither Congress nor the U.S. public have been presented with concrete evidence proving that our current President committed treason as defined by the laws of the U.S.


The investigation isn't over. A rush to judgment serves neither justice nor the person/s of interest. A good question is how long should an investigation go on. Certainly not for ever.
That's unfair to the persons of interest and it can be unfair in delaying judgment till it's deemed moot.
But indictments have been handed down on men surrounding Trump's election management, Russians that acted to influence the election in favor of Trump and now it's recently been found out that a gun rights advocacy group, the NRA, was infiltrated by a female Russian agent and possibly other Russian agents acting as spies, to illegally funnel NRA monies into Trump's election coffers.
So, there is concrete evidence that provides a reason to continue the investigation into how far our society has been infiltrated by an enemy nation currently in a cyber war with the US and many democratic nations of the world.



> I am positive that information would be out in the public way faster than a viral "covfefe" tweet and subsequent news coverage.


I'm not convinced. Obviously not all the potential information has been discovered as shown by the Red Sparrow-NRA connection to Trump's election.
I'm unaware of any set standard that requires a prosecutor or any investigation to have to exhibit any partial information that potentially risks the integrity of the investigation before it's completed.



> While we are at it, shouldn't we also accuse our previous sitting U.S. President of treason?


If there's a case to be made, sure.
But how does that affect the current situation?
Are you claiming that because a past President has run afoul of our laws, Trump should get a Mulligan?



> After all, he lied to Congress and the American public by not making a total of 1.7 billion dollar payoff to Iran public (under the guise of an interest payment and a failed contract delivery of military equipment from the 1970's), when Iran publicly advocates the destruction of the United States?


Go for it. But I don't see any logic that equates your claim to absolving Trump of possible crimes.
I don't even see a connection between the two events other than a a possible abstract.

Reality, that and Clinton's email problems are simply diversions away from Trump's problems.



> The answer is no


I agree.
But you committed a fallacy of comparisons in your argument and even rectified it as if it's a proof to Trump's situation. Iran is obviously an enemy. They simply haven't had the impact of Russian aggression nor the ability.
Think about it. If Iranian monies flowed illegally into any US election campaign, especially on the scale of Russia's influence, that candidate would be toast  ( and should be)



> At this time, those payoffs to Iran are much closer to the conceptual spirit of aiding and abetting than a yet to be proven Russian collusion accusation.


You could start a thread on why a Russian Manchurian candidate is preferable to an Iranian sympathizer, but I just don't see it as justification to end an ongoing investigation especially as it still has concerns to investigate.


----------



## Chawbacon

Johnny-be-Good said:


> You could start a thread on why a Russian Manchurian candidate is preferable to an Iranian sympathizer, but I just don't see it as justification to end an ongoing investigation especially as it still has concerns to investigate.


I like it!  Please understand that I was not attempting to justify an ending of the current investigation; rather, I was attempting to point out to the individuals that hate others solely based on a political agenda, that the prior holder of the office was probably more culpable of aiding and abetting; therefore, those individuals should take a step back and go forward with a clear mindset instead of voicing blind hatred.



Johnny-be-Good said:


> I'm unaware of any set standard that requires a prosecutor or any investigation to have to exhibit any partial information that potentially risks the integrity of the investigation before it's completed.


I concur. However; keeping in mind the historic amount of leaks surrounding this issue (from within the investigation, within the President's cabinet/staff, and from some highly questionable sources), do you really think information of a provable impeachment would be kept a secret for longer than a frog's hop? Hmmm... Now if there is a political advantage to be gained by the Democrats... perhaps you are correct. 



Johnny-be-Good said:


> So, there is concrete evidence that provides a reason to continue the investigation into how far our society has been infiltrated by an enemy nation currently in a cyber war with the US and many democratic nations of the world.


Well, there appears to be proof that the NRA has been compromised by the Russian backed money and that should be investigated; but, that does not mean that the President was complicit with the act. As for the indictments, there have been three U.S. Citizens indicted that I am aware of and none of the indictments can pin the tail on the Donkey (with the Donkey being Trump - in so many ways). 

1. Flynn - Plead Guilty. Lied concerning discussions with Russian officials during the Presidential transition period. I am not sure that having the discussions during the transition is really a big deal; but, it did occur.

2. Manafort - Accused of money-laundering and tax evasion many years prior to Trump running for office.

3. Gates - Plead guilty. Lied to Federal Agents and committed conspiracy (working as a government agent of behalf of Ukraine). I did not realize that the Russian collusion case included Ukraine collusion? Not that I mind the investigation if Gates is guilty; however, there is some scope-creep concerns here.


----------



## Johnny b

Chawbacon said:


> I like it!  Please understand that I was not attempting to justify an ending of the current investigation; rather, I was attempting to point out to the individuals that hate others solely based on a political agenda, that the prior holder of the office was probably more culpable of aiding and abetting; therefore, those individuals should take a step back and go forward with a clear mindset instead of voicing blind hatred.
> 
> I concur. However; keeping in mind the historic amount of leaks surrounding this issue (from within the investigation, within the President's cabinet/staff, and from some highly questionable sources), do you really think information of a provable impeachment would be kept a secret for longer than a frog's hop? Hmmm... Now if there is a political advantage to be gained by the Democrats... perhaps you are correct.
> 
> Well, there appears to be proof that the NRA has been compromised by the Russian backed money and that should be investigated; but, that does not mean that the President was complicit with the act. As for the indictments, there have been three U.S. Citizens indicted that I am aware of and none of the indictments can pin the tail on the Donkey (with the Donkey being Trump - in so many ways).
> 
> 1. Flynn - Plead Guilty. Lied concerning discussions with Russian officials during the Presidential transition period. I am not sure that having the discussions during the transition is really a big deal; but, it did occur.
> 
> 2. Manafort - Accused of money-laundering and tax evasion many years prior to Trump running for office.
> 
> 3. Gates - Plead guilty. Lied to Federal Agents and committed conspiracy (working as a government agent of behalf of Ukraine). I did not realize that the Russian collusion case included Ukraine collusion? Not that I mind the investigation if Gates is guilty; however, there is some scope-creep concerns here.





> However; keeping in mind the historic amount of leaks surrounding this issue (from within the investigation, within the President's cabinet/staff, and from some highly questionable sources), do you really think information of a provable impeachment would be kept a secret for longer than a frog's hop? Hmmm... Now if there is a political advantage to be gained by the Democrats... perhaps you are correct.


The case of Nixon set the pace for credible denyability by not building a 'Chinese wall' within his henchmen.
Leaks occurred as loyalty was broken down by the investigation.
IMO, most Presidents since Nixon observed this and put them selves in positions giving themselves the appearance of non involvement while underlings carried out wanted policy.
That requires a lot of mutual loyalty and trust.
Trump's loyalty appears to exist only when the advantage is wholly his own.
It becomes vapor under scrutiny and he distances himself.

So, unhappy drones result with whispers of disdain and contempt, thus secrets escape an inefficient 'Chinese wall'.

Mueller seems to have no such situation, thus potential leaks out of his office would more likely be planned by Mueller. And it's not happening.

Reality again: any negatives derived from Mueller's investigation will be advantageous to Democrats. Logically, how could it be otherwise?
The same applies in reverse to any controversy involving Democrats.
But it's not a logical argument to disregard either investigation.
How could justice exist if exclusion was demanded because someone benefited from the results of justice? Think about it. Everyone benefits from justice.

Except the guilty and those that support the guilty 



> Well, there appears to be proof that the NRA has been compromised by the Russian backed money and that should be investigated; but, that does not mean that the President was complicit with the act.


My goodness. Another fallacy 
Absence of evidence isn't evidence.

It does definitely mean there was a connection between Russian operatives, the NRA and the Trump campaign.
And that is what is being investigated.
At risk from Trump's pov is if his 'Chinese wall' has cracks in it that incriminate him and will those cracks come back to haunt him.
An investigation will/would clear that up one way or the other.



> As for the indictments, there have been three U.S. Citizens indicted that I am aware of and none of the indictments can pin the tail on the Donkey (with the Donkey being Trump - in so many ways)


There's actually 4 so far. Note: so far.
Add George Papadopoulos.
From recent articles about that Red Sparrow, expect the list to grow.
If there ever is discovery from those 12 Russians ( I don't expect it ) the list could lengthen quite a bit more.

I seem to remember Trump made a statement something along the lines of..... like, 'I was convinced Putin was truthful, honest to a fault,the boss of Russia and responsible for his people, and so am I.'
What? 

As to the Donkey analogy, Trump certainly relates to the southern end 

Whisper the term 'collusion' and paranoia becomes an entity that spreads through out the Trump-o-sphere followed with sweats and consternation.


----------



## Wino

Interesting read

http://www.journalgazette.net/news/...lion-cash-deal-with-iran-prohibited-by-us-law

Comparing Obama's Iran money exchange to anything sTrump has done is ludicrous at best. While I do not agree with what was done, from what I've read it seems all above board and legal. As for Iran wanting the destruction of America, while I know we are the Great Satan I'm unsure I've seen where they wanted us destroyed (probably do), but seems that was wished for Israel by one of their past presidents which have little authority to take any action, unlike the idiot we have as POTUS.


----------



## Johnny b

Indeed.
I have read that elsewhere, recently.

I think the constant attempt to bring in these elements is mostly for diversion.
Trump constantly refers to Clinton's email as some kind of rationale to not be investigated.
Maybe I've missed something, but I know of no H Clinton connection/collusion in the current investigation into Russia and it's intrusion into our electoral process nor can imagine there is one because of the animosity that exists between Clinton and Putin.
Her missing email is a different topic/issue.


----------



## Johnny b

More diversion.
A call to patriotism from a President that can at least be said, is teetering on the brink of treason after bootlicking the dictator of an enemy nation, jeopardizing US national security and foreign interests ( NATO ), initiating a trade war at the peril of our economy and furthering the divisions within our society and historic allies.

This may be an opinion piece, but it does show the incredible hypocrisy of the above individual that commands obedience in a sport, based on patriotism, while committing what is obviously among the worst of offenses against our nation, our freedoms, our security and our society.

* Trump has no right questioning patriotism of NFL players *

https://www.usatoday.com/story/spor...rumps-latest-criticism-nfl-players/811007002/

The title says it all, but here's a sample:



> Trump teed off on the NFL once again Friday night. He called on Commissioner Roger Goodell to kick players out of a game if they kneel during the national anthem and to suspend them without pay for the season if they do it again.


(Does Trump really think we'd forget about the Russian connection to our elections that obviously helped put Trump in office, and his disgraceful meeting with Putin. I haven't )

If an NFL player could be fired for being unpatriotic by kneeling, why couldn't the President for his unpatriotic transgressions that do look incredibly like treason be fired?
(BTW, that's a rhetorical argument of comparison not an invitation to Trumpsters to provide spastic logic from cherry picked law)


----------



## Chawbacon

Johnny-be-Good said:


> My goodness. Another fallacy
> Absence of evidence isn't evidence.


Ummm.... Yeah...... Glad we agree there. 



Johnny-be-Good said:


> There's actually 4 so far. Note: so far.
> Add George Papadopoulos.
> From recent articles about that Red Sparrow, expect the list to grow.
> If there ever is discovery from those 12 Russians ( I don't expect it ) the list could lengthen quite a bit more.


Thanks for the additional information! As for discovery... Don't forget that Muller's team argued to not allow discovery by one of the Russian firms that actually sent legal counsel to the court.



Johnny-be-Good said:


> I think the constant attempt to bring in these elements is mostly for diversion.
> Trump constantly refers to Clinton's email as some kind of rationale to not be investigated.
> Maybe I've missed something, but I know of no H Clinton connection/collusion in the current investigation into Russia and it's intrusion into our electoral process nor can imagine there is one because of the animosity that exists between Clinton and Putin.
> Her missing email is a different topic/issue.


My take is that Trump believes that there has been an unequal application of the law between himself and Hillary. If Trump is guilty of collusion with Russia, then these statements are a definite distraction tool; however, if Trump is innocent, the statements are an attempt to shed light on the perceived, ongoing injustice. Only time will tell.

As for Hillary collusion with Russia... Hillary has been accused of collusion with Russia and with tampering with our election process; but, no investigation has been opened.


----------



## Johnny b

Chawbacon said:


> Ummm.... Yeah...... Glad we agree there.
> 
> Thanks for the additional information! As for discovery... Don't forget that Muller's team argued to not allow discovery by one of the Russian firms that actually sent legal counsel to the court.
> 
> My take is that Trump believes that there has been an unequal application of the law between himself and Hillary. If Trump is guilty of collusion with Russia, then these statements are a definite distraction tool; however, if Trump is innocent, the statements are an attempt to shed light on the perceived, ongoing injustice. Only time will tell.
> 
> As for Hillary collusion with Russia... Hillary has been accused of collusion with Russia and with tampering with our election process; but, no investigation has been opened.





> As for discovery... Don't forget that Muller's team argued to not allow discovery by one of the Russian firms that actually sent legal counsel to the court.


From a practical point of view, Russia already holds their operatives being charged and is unlikely to hand them over. The US and Russia have no extradition treaty and the offer by Russia amounted to an unacceptable loss of US sovereignty that Trump supported and seemingly most of Congress didn't along with many Trump advisors. 
What kind of 'discovery' are you considering? The investigator's investigation from which charges aren't likely to be effectively brought unless the 12 are turned over to face charges?
What does that even mean?
There is a difference between 'discovery' from an ongoing investigation and 'discovery' during depositions.
The indictments are in place and the indicted not in custody or accessible.
There is no way for a discovery process to even occur in the legal sense of the term because of that.

Any actions taken in such a 'discovery' are likely to be more of a Russian propaganda event in a 'believe it or not' atmosphere.



> My take is that Trump believes that there has been an unequal application of the law between himself and Hillary.


So?
You'd have an argument if the perceived offenses were of the same scope and nature.
Only with sophistry could such a comparison be made.
Collusion with Russia by Clinton is absurd.
Campaign-finance laws were probably broken by Clinton, but that's not equivalent to a treasonous act.
Were any of her questionable acts in those emails of a treasonous nature with Russia? None that I'm aware of. But there is a reality that the Clinton Foundation took in vast amounts of 'donations' and favoritism was probably an issue. I'm unaware of any attempt to subjugate the US sovereignty in return. If you have evidence, I'd like to know.
Her email client and server were unofficial for government work and poorly protected from intrusion. A violation, indeed, Again, not a treasonous act.
Benghazi was a trouble spot, imo. She tried a cover-up to obviously protect her political image. She didn't protect her people in the field. It was expedient to lie about the event.
For that there are issues of trust. Would she defend the US if her political image was at risk?
That was an issue for me.
But again, that also doesn't fall under the definition of a treasonous act to intentionally give aid to or support for an enemy.

It's rather obvious the Actions of Trump and H Clinton do not compare well.
There are good arguments why neither should hold the office of the Presidency.
But they are different reasons and I didn't vote for either one because neither were suitable,

So what we have is an issue of enforcement, not an issue of discrimination.
Greater violations logically take greater observance and Trump's situation obviously trumps Hillary.

If you want to go after H Clinton for her indiscretions, have at it.
But Trump arguing he's being discriminated is pure BS.



> Hillary has been accused of collusion with Russia and with tampering with our election process; but, no investigation has been opened.


Probably never will be. It's an absurd accusation by a desperate despot facing accusations of a treasonous nature.
And he does lie a lot. A very big lot 
Even one of his own lawyers has him on tape


----------



## Johnny b

Using inedible twisted logic, Trump claims documents used as evidence to get a wiretap on Carter Page, a campaign aide, is an 'illegal scam'.

* President Trump claims FISA court documents point to 'illegal scam' at FBI *

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news...cuments-vindicate-his-position-doj/799660002/

It should be noted the FISA Court is used in the Patriot Act for the purpose Trump is whining about. Uncovering high crimes against the US.
Usually terrorism, however.
It just wasn't expected to be needed in the example of a potentially treasonous US President.
Info discovered points to Trump's foreign policy advisor being involved in collusion with Russia.

It begs the questions:
What is fake news?
What is fake evidence?

Why is Trump sweating bullets?

Apparently anything Trump doesn't like to be accused of.


----------



## Johnny b

Maria Butina (Red Sparrow) + billionaire Konstantin Nikolaev + Donald Trump

The connections?
Russian spy Butina is in the employ of Nikolaev.


> Nikolaev also sits on the board of a Houston-based ethane company called American Ethane. That company was applauded by President Donald Trump at an event in China last year for striking a trade deal to supply liquid ethane to Beijing.


A little too cozy after seeing the performance art of Trump-Putin last Monday?

* Report: Alleged spy Maria Butina paid by Russian billionaire Konstantin Nikolaev *
https://www.usatoday.com/story/news...an-billionaire-konstantin-nikolaev/815856002/

Anyone remember the fake claims Trump made about Clinton selling a uranium mining company to Russia?
Here we have a Russian billionaire, who hires at least one Russian spy that infiltrates into the NRA in order to move illegal campaign funds into Trump's election campaign, and following up with at least this example of Trump, endorsing the sale of US resources to China by said Russian.

Hypocrisy?
Conflict of interest?
Opportunist?
All of the above and more? Collusion?


----------



## Chawbacon

Chawbacon said:


> My take is that Trump believes that there has been an unequal application of the law between himself and Hillary.





Johnny-be-Good said:


> So?
> You'd have an argument if the perceived offenses were of the same scope and nature.
> Only with sophistry could such a comparison be made.
> Collusion with Russia by Clinton is absurd.
> Campaign-finance laws were probably broken by Clinton, but that's not equivalent to a treasonous act.
> Were any of her questionable acts in those emails of a treasonous nature with Russia? None that I'm aware of. But there is a reality that the Clinton Foundation took in vast amounts of 'donations' and favoritism was probably an issue. I'm unaware of any attempt to subjugate the US sovereignty in return. If you have evidence, I'd like to know.
> Her email client and server were unofficial for government work and poorly protected from intrusion. A violation, indeed, Again, not a treasonous act.
> Benghazi was a trouble spot, imo. She tried a cover-up to obviously protect her political image. She didn't protect her people in the field. It was expedient to lie about the event.
> For that there are issues of trust. Would she defend the US if her political image was at risk?
> That was an issue for me.
> But again, that also doesn't fall under the definition of a treasonous act to intentionally give aid to or support for an enemy.
> 
> It's rather obvious the Actions of Trump and H Clinton do not compare well.
> There are good arguments why neither should hold the office of the Presidency.
> But they are different reasons and I didn't vote for either one because neither were suitable,
> 
> So what we have is an issue of enforcement, not an issue of discrimination.
> Greater violations logically take greater observance and Trump's situation obviously trumps Hillary.
> 
> If you want to go after H Clinton for her indiscretions, have at it.
> But Trump arguing he's being discriminated is pure BS.


Hey John... You read way too much into that statement pal. I was just saying that IF Trump is innocent, pointing out a disparity is only a natural defense mechanism. 



Johnny-be-Good said:


> https://www.usatoday.com/story/news...cuments-vindicate-his-position-doj/799660002/


A concern here is what the article glosses over as inconsequential and does not fully report on all of the concerns voiced by Hillary's opposition.

"The records confirm that the FBI based its surveillance requests in part on the work of Christopher Steele, a former British intelligence officer hired by a research firm working for Clinton."

A few of the accusations by the Republicans here are:
1. The Steele Dossier was used as the primary piece of evidence to issue the FISA warrant and subsequent FISA warrant renewals. An initial FISA warrant without the Steel Dossier was turned down.
2. The Steel Dossier was not confirmed as fact, which is required when obtaining a FISA warrant.
3. The FISA warrant only contained a footnote, stating that the information may be politically motivated when the FBI and DOJ knew that the information was paid for by Hillary and the DNC. Full disclosure of this nature is required for a FISA warrant.
4. Christopher Steel obtained his information from Russian agents.
5. Fusion GPS was paid millions for this research. Did Steel or Fusion GPS pay the Russian agents for the dossier information?
6. Isn't working with Russians, receiving Russian intelligence, and possibly paying Russian operatives for intelligence considered treason? Is this not tampering with our election process?

Now, most of these points are fact and some of the points are conjecture/accusations and I am not sure who is telling the truth on this issue Hillary/Trump. For all I know they may both be innocent, or they may both be guilty of collusion. I do not think that either wing of the news media are presenting full stories on either front. So, I will continue to review both sides and try to determine where I believe the truth lies. On the legal front though, only time will tell.

Note - This is not an attempt to say that Trump should not be investigated. Rather that Hillary has legitimate collusion concerns also, which are being largely ignored by most media outlets. There should probably be an investigation on both Trump and Hillary, and I really do not care if they end up as cell mates.

BTW - I did not pull the lever for either of the last Presidential candidates. Like John, I just could not find enough reasons to vote for either one.


----------



## Johnny b

Chawbacon said:


> Hey John... You read way too much into that statement pal. I was just saying that IF Trump is innocent, pointing out a disparity is only a natural defense mechanism.
> 
> A concern here is what the article glosses over as inconsequential and does not fully report on all of the concerns voiced by Hillary's opposition.
> 
> "The records confirm that the FBI based its surveillance requests in part on the work of Christopher Steele, a former British intelligence officer hired by a research firm working for Clinton."
> 
> A few of the accusations by the Republicans here are:
> 1. The Steele Dossier was used as the primary piece of evidence to issue the FISA warrant and subsequent FISA warrant renewals. An initial FISA warrant without the Steel Dossier was turned down.
> 2. The Steel Dossier was not confirmed as fact, which is required when obtaining a FISA warrant.
> 3. The FISA warrant only contained a footnote, stating that the information may be politically motivated when the FBI and DOJ knew that the information was paid for by Hillary and the DNC. Full disclosure of this nature is required for a FISA warrant.
> 4. Christopher Steel obtained his information from Russian agents.
> 5. Fusion GPS was paid millions for this research. Did Steel or Fusion GPS pay the Russian agents for the dossier information?
> 6. Isn't working with Russians, receiving Russian intelligence, and possibly paying Russian operatives for intelligence considered treason? Is this not tampering with our election process?
> 
> Now, most of these points are fact and some of the points are conjecture/accusations and I am not sure who is telling the truth on this issue Hillary/Trump. For all I know they may both be innocent, or they may both be guilty of collusion. I do not think that either wing of the news media are presenting full stories on either front. So, I will continue to review both sides and try to determine where I believe the truth lies. On the legal front though, only time will tell.
> 
> Note - This is not an attempt to say that Trump should not be investigated. Rather that Hillary has legitimate collusion concerns also, which are being largely ignored by most media outlets. There should probably be an investigation on both Trump and Hillary, and I really do not care if they end up as cell mates.
> 
> BTW - I did not pull the lever for either of the last Presidential candidates. Like John, I just could not find enough reasons to vote for either one.





> Hey John... You read way too much into that statement pal. I was just saying that IF Trump is innocent, pointing out a disparity is only a natural defense mechanism.


Yeah, when 'disparity' is the act of a weak mind 
or a child 



> A concern here is what the article glosses over as inconsequential and does not fully report on all of the concerns voiced by Hillary's opposition.


Ah, the 'WHAT IF' game that makes sense when there is no evidence and goes counter to reality, logic and human nature?
Yeah  
No doubt Clinton had formulated some kind of political dirty tricks program, but buddying up with Putin for a win does kinda fail in the above 3 aspects. I think you need a better 'WHAT IF'.



> A few of the accusations by the Republicans here are:


Clinton didn't present any evidence to the FISA Court.
All data was chosen and presented by the FBI and turned over to a secret court whose judges were chosen by past Republican Presidents.
The worst you could say is that verified elements of Steele's document were used to further the investigation into other evidence which was used to also further the investigation.



> The FISA warrant only contained a footnote, stating that the information may be politically motivated when the FBI and DOJ knew that the information was paid for by Hillary and the DNC.


Secret investigations have a built in safe guard in that respect. If the investigation leads no where, political careers in this case, wouldn't be affected.
Unlucky for Trump, further investigations have led to indictments within his circle of election support and still expanding into the very heart of what makes us a free nation, an open election process. Not so much, obviously, as the evidence keeps pouring in on Russian involvement.
That's what the concept of FISA judges are for. To determine the validity of an investigation, of there being an investigation.



> 4. Christopher Steel obtained his information from Russian agents.


And others.
Total bummer for Trump.

So, are you claiming your 'WHAT IF' game entails Putin ordering his agents to offer evidence up to a Clinton investigator as a means to destroy Trumps chances at the Presidency, or perhaps to discredit Trump after Putin installs Trump as President, or even something to do with that secret NAZI base on the other side of the Moon?
Honestly, your 'WHAT IF' is sounding more like one of Alex Jones' crazy conspiracy theories.



> Isn't working with Russians, receiving Russian intelligence, and possibly paying Russian operatives for intelligence considered treason?


Working with Russians could be considered treasonous depending on intended results.
Fighting a mutual enemy like ISIS or al Qaeda would be mutual cooperation that benefits both. Trump did that. Not a treasonous act
But a US citizen, or President, working with Russians to overthrow our democracy for the benefit of Russia, an enemy of our nation, would be an act of treason.

Please, don't treat the forum as ignorant.



> Fusion GPS was paid millions for this research. Did Steel or Fusion GPS pay the Russian agents for the dossier information?


And how do you think this proves, in any way, Clinton colluded with Putin in a treasonous manner ?
The act of seeking evidence is not a matter of treason.
Planting false evidence could be, but only verified elements of Steele's document were used by the FBI for FISA warrants and the idea that Clinton paying for a personal investigation into Trump is treasonous is incredibly disingenuous after the considerable numbers of questionable and treasonous events within Trump's campaign.

Spin, spin and spin some more. That's all I see in your argument to stop the investigation into the Trump campaign.
As an old saying, he 'doth protest too much' really only makes him look the more guilty.
Well, maybe not to 'True Believers' 



> Note - This is not an attempt to say that Trump should not be investigated. Rather that Hillary has legitimate collusion concerns also, which are being largely ignored by most media outlets. There should probably be an investigation on both Trump and Hillary, and I really do not care if they end up as cell mates.


You wouldn't mind if the more serious crime was dealt with first, would you?
I haven't argued Clinton is an innocent, but colluding with Russia for the purpose of installing Russian domination certainly is not evident in logical theory or deed.


----------



## Johnny b

More diversions from treason accusations?

*Trump to Iranian president: 'Never ever threaten' U.S. again, or 'suffer consequences' *

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news...asts-iran-president-all-caps-tweet/817552002/



> Trump tweeted Iran would face dire consequences for making hostile threats against the United States after Rouhani said that "American(s) must understand well that peace with Iran is the mother of all peace and war with Iran is the mother of all wars."
> 
> Trump responded with a tweet in capital letters that warned: "NEVER EVER THREATEN THE UNITED STATES AGAIN OR YOU WILL SUFFER CONSEQUENCES THE LIKE OF WHICH FEW THROUGHOUT HISTORY HAVE EVER SUFFERED BEFORE."
> 
> Rouhani cautioned Trump to stop "playing with the lion's tail or else you will regret it."
> 
> Trump pulled the U.S. out of the deal between Iran and world powers in May despite objections from China, France, Germany, Russia and the United Kingdom. The deal was intended to prevent Tehran from developing a nuclear weapon.


Interesting comparison to Trump's 'Rocket Man' saga.
Serious threats were traded over NK's nuclear program.
Both seem to go 'kissy-huggy'.
Trump declared US is now safe from NK aggression while NK goes back to their nuke and rocket program.

I get the terrible feeling Trump is either using a ouiji board for foreign policy or someone is telling him to be obtuse on purpose.
.
Well, a war would certainly be a distraction from current events on our home front


----------



## Wino

We would be safer if her were using a Ouija Board in lieu of his "stable geniosity".


----------



## Johnny b

Wino said:


> We would be safer if her were using a Ouija Board in lieu of his "stable geniosity".


Stable geniosity?

It's easy to prove he isn't using fantastic intellectual abilities when article like this pop up:

* Donald Trump says, without evidence, Russians want to influence 2018 elections for Democrats *

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news...want-sway-2018-elections-democrats/826460002/



> Trump made the comment Tuesday in a tweet, but gave no evidence for his claims. Trump has been criticized for inconsistent statements about whether he accepts the U.S. intelligence community's conclusion that Moscow meddled in the 2016 campaign.
> 
> "Based on the fact that no President has been tougher on Russia than me, they will be pushing very hard for the Democrats," Trump tweeted en route to Kansas City, Missouri, for a speech to the Veterans of Foreign Wars. "They definitely don't want Trump!"


Seriously....anyone really believing that just has to be mentally challenged.
Sad thing is, there are a lot of insane conspiracy theories out there that have large followings.


----------



## Johnny b

* Trump offers help to farmers hit by escalating China trade war *

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news...port-farmers-caught-trade-disputes/825940002/

Looks more like buying the ag vote with our tax dollars and increasing the deficit.
Guess who gets to cover that element of the increased deficit? Same as the rest of the deficit, eventually the tax payer.

If the farmers get their way, will the Big 3 auto manufactures and other business entities hurt by Trump's 'wonderful' trade war get a piece of our tax dollars also?

Why would anyone ever think Trump was /is a conservative let alone a good businessman?

Seriously, isn't this a form of (shudder) socialism on a grand scale?


----------



## Johnny b

Seems I remember a British economist ho-humming the situation of Harley Davidson.

* Harley-Davidson puts tariff loss at $150 million as sales slump *

https://www.usatoday.com/story/money/2018/07/24/harley-davidson-motorcycles-earnings/824866002/

So ask yourself, would a good businessman welcome a trade war?
Would an intelligent leader welcome a trade war?
Could a compromised leader intentionally start a trade war?


----------



## valis

i got that reference.....


----------



## valis

Trump is not a good businessman. He was gifted all and managed to lose it all a few times. He isnt even lucky, he just has enough chips to bully his way around the table.

He is soooo far from an intelligent leader; again, just the fact the he WAS elected shows just how far and fast the US has fallen. Nixon was at least intelligent. I can handle intelligent crooks; it is the room temp IQ homophobic racist colluding dingalings I have an issue with.

And I think we are seeing a compromised leader intentionally starting a trade war. He is in Putin's pocket. And we freaking elected him.

Yikes.


----------



## Chawbacon

Johnny-be-Good said:


> Clinton didn't present any evidence to the FISA Court.
> All data was chosen and presented by the FBI and turned over to a secret court whose judges were chosen by past Republican Presidents.
> The worst you could say is that verified elements of Steele's document were used to further the investigation into other evidence which was used to also further the investigation.


Correct in part. Clinton did not present evidence to the FISA Court and most of the FISA Judges were chosen by Republican Presidents; however, the proven facts are that Clinton paid for the development of the Steel Dossier, the CIA circulated and leaked the documents to news agencies (against CIA internal policies and U.S. Law) which were used as multiple source proof by the FBI, then the FBI lied to the FISA Court Judge by not fully disclosing the political connections to the Steel Dossier and presented the Steel Dossier as fact without verifying the information (against FBI internal policies and U.S. Law). IMHO the individuals involved in pulling off this charade all deserve to be behind bars for abusing the power that they were entrusted with... regardless of political party.



Johnny-be-Good said:


> Secret investigations have a built in safe guard in that respect. If the investigation leads no where, political careers in this case, wouldn't be affected.
> Unlucky for Trump, further investigations have led to indictments within his circle of election support and still expanding into the very heart of what makes us a free nation, an open election process. Not so much, obviously, as the evidence keeps pouring in on Russian involvement.
> That's what the concept of FISA judges are for. To determine the validity of an investigation, of there being an investigation.


Safeguards do not protect an investigation that is launched under false pretenses. Fabricating evidence, or planting false evidence, for any investigation conducted by U.S. law enforcement entities would be grounds for dismissal of criminal charges. Historically, quite a few police officers/detectives have been sent to jail for similar actions and the accused set free.



Johnny-be-Good said:


> So, are you claiming your 'WHAT IF' game entails Putin ordering his agents to offer evidence up to a Clinton investigator as a means to destroy Trumps chances at the Presidency, or perhaps to discredit Trump after Putin installs Trump as President, or even something to do with that secret NAZI base on the other side of the Moon?
> Honestly, your 'WHAT IF' is sounding more like one of Alex Jones' crazy conspiracy theories.


What??? Nazi base on the moon... Now who made the logical fallacy here pal? 

All kidding aside though, there is more proof that Hillary colluded with Russian agents (albeit indirectly) than Trump.

Now also consider that when hiring individuals that run international businesses, it would be expected for the same individuals to have political, law enforcement, and legal connections to numerous countries. Simply having these connections is not proof of a criminal act; however, looking into the connections to make sure everything is above board is fine by me, as long as other privacy laws are not violated in the process.



Johnny-be-Good said:


> Working with Russians could be considered treasonous depending on intended results.
> Fighting a mutual enemy like ISIS or al Qaeda would be mutual cooperation that benefits both. Trump did that. Not a treasonous act
> But a US citizen, or President, working with Russians to overthrow our democracy for the benefit of Russia, an enemy of our nation, would be an act of treason.
> 
> Please, don't treat the forum as ignorant.


Such accusations! I would never treat the forum as ignorant. Too many intelligent people here!  But I love the exchange of ideas.

Exactly how was our Representative Republic seriously threatened of being overthrown? A bunch of Twitter and Facebook ads swayed the election that much? Are you saying that the Democrat electorate, or independents, are so ignorant that they cannot fact check?  Poking the bear!

Well, if the accusations towards Hillary concerning the Uranium One deal are proven to be factual, then yeah, pay for play. I find it strange that Russia was able to purchase U.S. Government owned uranium when the U.S. has to import approximately 90% of their uranium. A good way to help win the cold nuclear standoff would be to control the uranium, right? Pondering... Why would Russia want to get rid of Clinton when they knew she could be bought? If the Trump accusations are correct, I guess Russia thought that Trump could be bought cheaper. A distinct possibility!



Johnny-be-Good said:


> And how do you think this proves, in any way, Clinton colluded with Putin in a treasonous manner ?
> The act of seeking evidence is not a matter of treason.
> Planting false evidence could be, but only verified elements of Steele's document were used by the FBI for FISA warrants and the idea that Clinton paying for a personal investigation into Trump is treasonous is incredibly disingenuous after the considerable numbers of questionable and treasonous events within Trump's campaign.
> 
> Spin, spin and spin some more. That's all I see in your argument to stop the investigation into the Trump campaign.
> As an old saying, he 'doth protest too much' really only makes him look the more guilty.
> Well, maybe not to 'True Believers'


Sorry pal, even James Comey referred to the Steele Dossier as "salacious and unverified." Exactly what accusation within the Steele Dossier has been proven? Everything I have read (alot of it claiming verification) from both sides, claims verification; but, in the end contains language indicating unnamed sources, or some other extenuating caveat, that seriously clouds the outcome. The closest that I have seen relates to the Russia - NRA connection; but, so far there is no evidence supporting that Trump directly sought the support, or gave directives to seek the underlying support.



Johnny-be-Good said:


> You wouldn't mind if the more serious crime was dealt with first, would you?
> I haven't argued Clinton is an innocent, but colluding with Russia for the purpose of installing Russian domination certainly is not evident in logical theory or deed.


Nope, I do not mind, as long as other U.S. Laws are not broken in the pursuit of justice. The problem with the Trump investigation is that the facts used to open the investigation were not proven when presented to the FISC. Regardless, if the allegations have been subsequently proven true, the investigation teeters on illegality from the start. And yes, I know that is not an ideal answer; however, that is how U.S. Law works by design.

How does this work? Let's say an individual is falsely accused of embezzlement, but, during the investigation the individual is found to have stolen a car. Once it is determined that the embezzlement claim was based on false statements, the information collected on the stolen car becomes inadmissible in court as evidence. This falls under U.S. Privacy Law and established case law covering illegal search and seizure.


----------



## valis

this would be where I grab a chair and some popcorn.


----------



## Chawbacon

valis said:


> this would be where I grab a chair and some popcorn.


I love your sense of humor Valis! Or is that an unhealthy obsession with the political blood splatter? Either way thanks for the laugh!


----------



## valis

oh definitely humor....


----------



## Johnny b

valis said:


> this would be where I grab a chair and some popcorn.





Chawbacon said:


> I love your sense of humor Valis! Or is that an unhealthy obsession with the political blood splatter? Either way thanks for the laugh!


It may not be what you think, Chewy


----------



## Johnny b

Chawbacon said:


> Correct in part. .........whew...edited for brevity
> 
> .... This falls under U.S. Privacy Law and established case law covering illegal search and seizure.





> however, the proven facts are that Clinton paid for the development of the Steel Dossier


Irrelevant.
Only verified facts were used. Nothing sinister there no matter who paid for the investigation or who did the investigating.
Also note, Steele never knew who initially ordered the investigation. All he knew was that FusionGPS subcontracted the investigation to Steele. Steele did not know the client was Clinton's campaign and the DNC.
Not knowing the client eliminated any bias that could have been established by pleasing a client.
(see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trump–Russia_dossier)



> the CIA circulated and leaked the documents to news agencies (against CIA internal policies and U.S. Law) which were used as multiple source proof by the FBI


Non-sequitur. The object in question is a dossier, not not a series of documents.
A dossier is not a 'multiple source proof'.
The proofs are the verifications of elements within the dossier.

When BuzzFedd published the Steele dossier, it was the unverified form.
So, who leaked it?
https://www.newsweek.com/trump-dossier-steele-comey-frustrated-1040408
Steele did. ( Didn't expect that did you Chewy  )


> "In or about late October 2016, however, after the director of the FBI sent a letter to Congress, which stated that the FBI had learned of new information that might be pertinent to an investigation that the FBI was conducting of Candidate #2, Source #1 told the FBI that he/she was frustrated with this action and believed it would likely influence the 2016 U.S. Presidential election," the footnote on page 26 of the April 2017 application explained.
> The application also said Steele "independently, and against the prior admonishment from the FBI to speak only with the FBI on this matter, released the reporting discussed herein to an identified news organization."
> 
> The official revelation of Steele's frustration with Comey and the FBI confirmed The Washington Post's report in February 2017, which cited people familiar with the former spy's thinking.
> 
> Despite the leak, the FBI stated it still believed that Steele's "reporting is reliable" but that it had since "closed" him as "an active source."


WOW! Never saw that coming, did ya? 



> then the FBI lied to the FISA Court Judge by not fully disclosing the political connections to the Steel Dossier and presented the Steel Dossier as fact without verifying the information


Don't you feel a bit silly now? 



> IMHO the individuals involved in pulling off this charade all deserve to be behind bars for abusing the power that they were entrusted with... regardless of political party.


From a debate pov, sometimes the less said the better LOL!



> Safeguards do not protect an investigation that is launched under false pretenses. Fabricating evidence, or planting false evidence, for any investigation conducted by U.S. law enforcement entities would be grounds for dismissal of criminal charges. Historically, quite a few police officers/detectives have been sent to jail for similar actions and the accused set free.


It would help to confine your remarks to the topic at hand.
So far little of your comments go to fact.
You've made another of your logical fallacies.
A non-sequitur.
Your statement doesn't follow logic because you are comparing criminal activity to the history of the Steele dossier and it's importance, while your logic is based on false claims and accusations of impropriety.
Admit it, you're a Trumpian 



> All kidding aside though, there is more proof that Hillary colluded with Russian agents (albeit indirectly) than Trump.


Did Alex Jones convince you to post that? 



> Now also consider that when hiring individuals that run international businesses, it would be expected for the same individuals to have political, law enforcement, and legal connections to numerous countries. Simply having these connections is not proof of a criminal act; however, looking into the connections to make sure everything is above board is fine by me, as long as other privacy laws are not violated in the process.


Paq would admonish you for being a ( shudder ) 'Globalist' (  )
I think just getting tired and forgot the issues.
It's not who a leader knows, it's an issue of who controls the leader.



> Such accusations! I would never treat the forum as ignorant.


That was just one example. I expected better from you.
But you have also made claims in this post that simply do not hold up.



> Well, if the accusations towards Hillary concerning the Uranium One deal are proven to be factual, then yeah, pay for play.


See what I'm referring to?
It takes only a few seconds using Google to disprove your IF .
Very first hit using search terms 'H Clinton + uranium sale'
https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/hillary-clinton-uranium-russia-deal/ 


> Among the ways these accusations stray from the facts is in attributing a power of veto or approval to Secretary Clinton that she simply did not have. Clinton was one of nine cabinet members and department heads that sit on the CFIUS, and the secretary of the treasury is its chairperson. CFIUS members are collectively charged with evaluating proposed foreign acquisitions for potential national security issues, then turning their findings over to the president. By law, the committee can't veto a transaction; only the president can.
> 
> All nine federal agencies were required to approve the Uranium One transaction before it could go forward. According to The New York Times, Clinton may not have even directly participated in the decision. Then-Assistant Secretary of State Jose Fernandez, whose job it was to represent the State Dept. on CFIUS, said Clinton "never intervened" in committee matters. Clinton herself has said she wasn't personally involved.


You post as if your imagination has value 



> Sorry pal, even James Comey referred to the Steele Dossier as "salacious and unverified.


No need to apologize, I never posted anything in reference to Comey's opinion.
I will point out that Clinton's people don't seem to like him either.
There is however an argument that Comey's comments only apply to a specific portion of the Steele dossier.
Not concerned and not interested.
I think the guy looks a bit too self serving.



> accusation within the Steele Dossier has been proven


The term is 'verified.
Because it's an ongoing investigation, details haven't been posted to my knowledge and Bob tells me mums the word.
But here's the link to the original dossier in both text and pdf
https://www.documentcloud.org/documents/3259984-Trump-Intelligence-Allegations.html

The yellow underlined passages in the pdf will sound familiar 



> The problem with the Trump investigation is that the facts used to open the investigation were not proven when presented to the FISC.


 sophistry.
There was no 'problem'.
The FBI claimed the dossier had enough verified concerns to request a warrant from a FISA Court to continue investigation. The FISA Court agreed.



> Regardless, if the allegations have been subsequently proven true, the investigation teeters on illegality from the start. And yes, I know that is not an ideal answer; however, that is how U.S. Law works by design.


You forgot the 'IMO' 



> How does this work? Let's say an individual is falsely accused of embezzlement, but, during the investigation the individual is found to have stolen a car. Once it is determined that the embezzlement claim was based on false statements, the information collected on the stolen car becomes inadmissible in court as evidence. This falls under U.S. Privacy Law and established case law covering illegal search and seizure.


Aside the fact your analogy has no similarity to Trumps predicament, you obviously haven't read Steele's dossier.
Add to the fact, that treason is the only crime defined in the US Constitution likely because of the severity of it's nature, comparing it to any criminal or civil law statute seems, well, illogical.
To even consider absolving an act of treason in such a bizarre manner seems illogical.

Yeah, when searches exceed warrants, evidence gathered in that manner is excluded. Usually, often, but not as an absolute.
https://www.law.cornell.edu/wex/exclusionary_rule
see good faith exception paragraph

However 3 FISA courts granted warrants to continue investigations.
Hint, that's NOT the same as your analogy.


----------



## Johnny b

valis said:


> oh definitely humor....


I think we both know there's an unhealthy attraction to 'watching a train wreck'


----------



## Johnny b

OMG!
I forgot to address this:



> Exactly how was our Representative Republic seriously threatened of being overthrown? A bunch of Twitter and Facebook ads swayed the election that much? Are you saying that the Democrat electorate, or independents, are so ignorant that they cannot fact check?  Poking the bear!


Ah, another 'IF' game this time based on ignoring causality. 
This is a 'How' argument.

Causality. Cause and effect.
Our society has already experienced 'effect' to study. From that 'cause', scenarios can be projected,

So, here's one.

Your question 'How' revolves around the constant decline of our society, both in economic and moral regards.
But those two elements are not distinct and separate concerns. Degradation of one induces the degradation of the other. Nothing mystical. Just human nature responding to negative influences.

The US economy has been under stress for a decade. Morality and ethics have suffered to the point extremisms exist claiming to be the path to better living.
Currently, two major groups.
One, the Left, using socialism to solve problems, the other, the alt right focusing on disenfranchising, nationalizing, national socialism as a means to placate those that think their problems are generated wholly by the actions of anyone but themselves.
Neither side provides stability.
Now to your 'IF' game.
Speculate how easy it could be to carry this imbalance of irrational thinking to the point of social and political reformation by changing the character of how a society is governed.
All it needs is a series of events that induces greater economic destruction. A series of events that cause a greater rejection of morality and ethics. A political leader that favors the concept of President for Life.
An enemy nation to use appealing propaganda in social campaigns to intensify the extremisms. To create greater social turmoil. Create further economic decline. Then use it's success to formulate our type of government to further advance their domination.

The 'IF' game for a potential 'How'.

And all of that is more than just familiar at the present. 
Do I need to be repetitive and supply a list of events? They are constantly in news reporting.

Or has this discussion simply been designed a time waster more than a discussion?

So far, all I've seen you post are repetitious and discredited claims and 'IFs' originating from a discredited President and his immediate supporters, many of whom are being investigated for possible collusion with a foreign power that also 'happens' to be an enemy of the US.



> Are you saying that the Democrat electorate, or independents, are so ignorant that they cannot fact check?


It's rather obvious you seem to be denying the checking of facts 

edit: Will there be follow-ups with 'Fake News' claims? (  )


----------



## Johnny b

I mentioned this before, here's some more detail:

* Trump is buying votes, not helping farmers *
https://finance.yahoo.com/news/trump-buying-votes-not-helping-farmers-202958144.html



> A classic motif of comedy is the small lie that requires ever-bigger lies to maintain the deceit, until the whole fraud collapses with the deceivers exposed.
> 
> This is what President Trump's trade policy is starting to feel like.





> If affected nations retaliate, it will compound the damage, and easily cross the threshold at which financial markets quake.


Interesting read.


----------



## Johnny b

OK...this one did make me laugh 

* Trump Proposes Mueller Interview With No Obstruction Questions *
https://finance.yahoo.com/news/trumps-lawyers-submit-proposal-mueller-001732921.html



> The president's legal team is concerned that Mueller and his staff might believe witnesses who contradicted Trump's account, such as former FBI Director James Comey, Giuliani said. That could leave the president vulnerable to a perjury charge, he added.


Interpretation: Don't ask because we aren't telling LOL!


----------



## Chawbacon

Johnny - You are killing me here. 

After reading through all of those references (most of them I was already familiar with), I am sure that your are aware that there are counter sources to almost all of the left leaning references that you provided (even Snopes unfortunately, tends to lean left when possible on political issues), which you are not interested in; however, those disparate resources do feed into your fake news request.  Would the real fake news please stand up? 

Both sides of this issue are pumping out fake news, or at least less than fully factual news. The problem I encounter on a routine basis is that two separate news agencies will have completely different spins on any political related event and support their story with a different set of facts. Both sides are true to an extent and both sides are disingenuous to an extent. All that I am saying is that at this time in history, we all need to look at any news article with an extremely critical eye and review multiple disparate sources to determine what we believe to be the true story. 

On this particular issue, I believe that we will have to agree to disagree... and at least we are agreeing to not be disagreeable. 

As for being a Trumpian? Definitely not! 

I served in the U.S. Armed Forces for just under 12 years and dealt with classified information on a daily basis. So the misuse and abuse of the intelligence tools used to protect the U.S. bothers me greatly. I have grave concerns with the accusations towards both Clinton and Trump and I perceive that there has been a demonstrable legal double standard implemented at the top of our intelligence agencies. This bothers me more than the accusations towards any political candidate. Perhaps this perceived double standard taints my view on any collusion/conspiracy accusations towards Trump, a possibility that I cannot deny. Either way, one of us will be on the wrong side of history when this is all said and done. 

As for Trump... I agree with most of his economic policies; but, tend to disagree on most many of his social issues. 

I have enjoyed the commentary and exchange of ideas Johnny.


----------



## Johnny b

Yep, and there goes the rebuttal, 'Fake News' just as I expected. LOL!



> On this particular issue, I believe that we will have to agree to disagree... and at least we are agreeing to not be disagreeable.



I don't have to do anything, Jack.
I was fully aware you weren't likely to accept reality in the discussion.
My posts addressed a response for readers of this thread to consider. Reality. Not polarized driven political rhetoric.



> I served in the U.S. Armed Forces for just under 12 years and dealt with classified information on a daily basis. So the misuse and abuse of the intelligence tools used to protect the U.S. bothers me greatly.


I make no claims of myself. I let my words and arguments stand on their soundness, and state my opinions as such.



> I have grave concerns with the accusations towards both Clinton and Trump and I perceive that there has been a demonstrable legal double standard implemented at the top of our intelligence agencies.


Concerns aren't the same as actual events.
You speak of double standards, but events don't back up the claim.
To be a double standard, the considerations need to have equivalence.
Your claims Clinton colluded with the Russians concerning the election and even the uranium sale were so incredibly obviously a fiction, I was surprised you even tried. It's straight out of the Alex Jones universe of conspiracy theories and repetitious blogger nonsense.
Is she a crook? Of course. She's a politician. Dirty tricks? Indeed. Probably even breaks campaign financing laws. 
But treasonous collusion with the Russians? Your intelligence background now seems rather limited and influenced by political bias. 



> Either way, one of us will be on the wrong side of history when this is all said and done.


Again with the fallacious logic .
If history goes sideways, everybody is affected.
If it doesn't, it will show attempts ( by what ever source/s, but you are aware I obviously mean Russia ) to dominate the US failed and our individual fates are back to our own making.



> As for Trump... I agree with most of his economic policies


I suggest you keep watching market trends and especially the health of personal finances.
It's been going south for the middle class for so long there isn't much left of an economy that supports the class.
Trump's economic plans reflect the mindset of the opportunist he's always been.



> I have enjoyed the commentary and exchange of ideas Johnny.


Glad you enjoyed it.


----------



## Johnny b

This ought to be interesting:

* Michael Cohen says Trump knew, approved of meeting with Russians to get dirt on Clinton: report *

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news...eller-approved-trump-tower-meeting/846902002/



> Michael Cohen, the president's former longtime attorney and fixer, is claiming that Donald Trump knew and approved of a meeting at Trump Tower with a Russian lawyer - and he is willing to tell investigators about what he knows, according to multiple reports.
> 
> Cohen alleges he was in the room with a number of others when Donald Trump Jr. informed then-candidate Trump of the planned meeting with a Russian lawyer promising dirt on Hillary Clinton, CNN and NBC News reported Thursday evening, both citing anonymous sources.


One thing leads to another.
A never ending saga


----------



## Wino

I'm shocked!! I tell you, SHOCKED!!!

LOL


----------



## Johnny b

Here's some more unexpected news developments ( Not!  )

* Avenatti: Hush money paid before election to 3 more women who claim affairs with Trump *

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news...-more-women-claiming-affairs-trump/849051002/



> The California attorney for porn actress Stormy Daniels said he now represents three more women who were allegedly paid hush money before the election to silence them about affairs with Donald Trump.


Stay tuned for more info about this trail of tears 

I wonder, how many Mulligans will the evangelicals hand out before they realize what's been going on??


----------



## Littlefield

Wonder how hot they are ? LOL


----------



## Johnny b

Littlefield said:


> Wonder how hot they are ? LOL


Probably in the realm of $130K each 

Maybe even more.
Maybe even less.

Time will tell.


----------



## Littlefield

But Stormy said she did not want Trump to pay her for sex. LOL


----------



## Johnny b

Littlefield said:


> But Stormy said she did not want Trump to pay her for sex. LOL


In her line of work, probably holding out for a bigger payday.
The other three, likely also.

The concept of blackmail seems to work like that


----------



## Johnny b

Apparently sanctions and tariffs aren't Trump's favorite means of diplomacy against Russian oligarch friends of Putin for crimes against the US. 
Better to alienate our allies?

* Sanctions on Russia's Rusal could be lifted, Mnuchin says *

https://www.cnn.com/2018/07/27/politics/mnuchin-russia-sanctions-rusal/index.html



> The Trump administration is looking into lifting sanctions against a major Russian aluminum company founded by one of Vladimir Putin's closest allies.
> The Treasury Department is considering relieving Rusal of penalties even though its former owner, oligarch Oleg Deripaska, was sanctioned this year by the US in an attempt to punish the Kremlin for interfering in the 2016 US presidential election.


----------



## Johnny b

* US economy grows at fastest pace since 2014 *

https://money.cnn.com/2018/07/27/news/economy/us-gdp-economic-growth/index.html



> Second-quarter economic growth came in at an annual rate of 4.1%, the government said Friday. That was the best showing since the third quarter of 2014.
> 
> By many metrics, the United States economy is in excellent shape: Unemployment is near an 18-year low, factories are seeing more orders, and exports are surging.


But will voters this fall see this as offsetting Trump's apparent collusion with Russia and potential subservience to a Russian dictator?

The question is, how much is freedom for sale and how many are sellers?


----------



## Johnny b

So, what is Trump doing to protect our elections?
Apparently nothing.

* Lacking direction from White House, intelligence agencies scramble to protect midterm elections from hackers *

https://www.cnn.com/2018/07/27/politics/agencies-midterms-election-security/index.html


----------



## Wino

Johnny-be-Good said:


> * US economy grows at fastest pace since 2014 *
> 
> https://money.cnn.com/2018/07/27/news/economy/us-gdp-economic-growth/index.html
> 
> But will voters this fall see this as offsetting Trump's apparent collusion with Russia and potential subservience to a Russian dictator?
> 
> The question is, how much is freedom for sale and how many are sellers?


Obviously his worshipers care not about Russia, collusion, lying, morals, honesty etc.

The economy, like his wealth, was inherited. sTrump should thank his predecessor. Like him or not, Obama pulled us out of the great recession with little to no help from sTrumps repulsive party. Cheetolini will own the economy come July 2019 onward. For the sake of our nation I hope he is successful, but will be very surprised if he succeeds with his crazy, erratic and idiotic economic policies - and this doesn't even come close to describing his seemingly non existent hodgepodge foreign policies.

Brings back memories of the start of the cold war and Lucky Strikes LSMFT. For those too young to recall - Luck Strick Means Fine Tobacco - was transformed to mean - Lord Save Me From Truman - applies today to Trump - for those with a religious bent.


----------



## Johnny b

Wino said:


> Obviously his worshipers care not about Russia, collusion, lying, morals, honesty etc.
> .................................
> 
> .......................... For the sake of our nation I hope he is successful, but will be very surprised if he succeeds with his crazy, erratic and idiotic economic policies - and this doesn't even come close to describing his seemingly non existent hodgepodge foreign policies.
> 
> ...........................


Trump as a businessman, has often risked bankruptcy with questionable 'deals', and sometimes failing, leaving his creditors and investors with the losses.
His questionable grandstanding with economic and foreign policies puts the US to questionable risks, but where he bailed out of his business ventures leaving his partners poorer, he would be bailing out of the Presidency leaving a broken nation to face potential domination by an existing enemy nation, Russia.

Trump is a self serving opportunist. Win big or lose with everyone else taking the losses seems to have been his motto in life.


----------



## Johnny b

On and on and on:

* President Donald Trump threatens to shut down government over border wall funding *

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news...-over-wall-funding-before-midterms/858890002/



> President Trump threatened Sunday to shut down the federal government unless Democrats in Congress support his immigration initiatives, including funding for a wall on the border with Mexico.
> 
> Trump also lashed out at the immigration policy that allows up to 50,000 immigrants to receive visas each year and the practice of arresting migrants for crossing the border illegally and freeing them until their case are adjudicated.
> 
> "I would be willing to 'shut down' government if the Democrats do not give us the votes for Border Security, which includes the Wall!"


Amazing.
Close down a government over illegal immigration, which is declining, but embrace an enemy that is actively still engaging in a cyber war against our democratic processes and our economic infrastructure.

Whose side is Trump on?


----------



## valis

His own side. He is self-serving and as such unfit as president. Thought this was obvious.


----------



## Johnny b

Hi Tim.

It was obvious to me long before I was aware Trump had political aspirations.
But I ask the question anyway, for those on the fence to consider the incredible governing that is occurring from the highest office in the US.

So, why does Trump have such fanatical support?
Why are a segment of American citizens so aligned with policies that will likely result in their own destruction of freedom?
Do they think their economic futures are better served by a dominating foreign nation, or their own free expression?

Is this a tipping point for a free society?


----------



## valis

you may as well ask why racism is an issue, or marijuana or gay people. Americans are, for whatever reason, apparently so happy with their personal lives that they can tell everyone else how to live theirs.

Honestly? I put a LOT of this on the media. And people who are waaaay overly entitled.

Religion and its blind followers dont help either.


----------



## Johnny b

I suspect a lot of combinations of reasoning.



> Honestly? I put a LOT of this on the media. And people who are waaaay overly entitled.


My sister and I were just discussing that this morning. Unreasonable expectations in an indulgent society, too focused on consumerism and supported by dicey credit and entitlements. Add disastrous economic events of great recessions and expenses of middle eastern war and spreading terrorism to the economic pressures and topping that off we seem to have too many individuals on a beer budget that want to live like kings 

Another one to add is dissatisfaction with their own lives and everyone but them selves is seen as the culprit.

But fixing what is wrong doesn't seem their goal. Destroying the system does.


----------



## valis

we seem to think we are entitled to riches and lose our minds when life reminds us we are not. It is frustrating when keeping up with the Jones' means more than familial happiness. I just don't, and never will, understand that. Be happy with who you are and let others do the same.

It is not hard to do.


----------



## valis

and honestly? 

The system may very well need destroying. ANY system that puts this sort of entitled doofus in charge of it needs some SERIOUS looking at. If not a complete freaking overhaul.


----------



## Littlefield

I am glad you can say freaking on this forum now. LOL


----------



## Johnny b

valis said:


> and honestly?
> 
> The system may very well need destroying. ANY system that puts this sort of entitled doofus in charge of it needs some SERIOUS looking at. If not a complete freaking overhaul.


There definitely seems a need to reevaluate the way things have played out.
The Constitution as written is logical. Interpretations, however, too often reflect political influence.
Rebuilding a society with newly written laws from scratch, with those influences still present,
with input, likely builds another flawed pattern of justice and injustice.
And the Trumpian plan doesn't seem to embrace equality for all let alone the concept of a democratic society.

The current mentality to surrender to a hostile foreign power in the name of peace is probably the worst of it, lack of intellectual capabilities with in a society a close second and obviously inducing the acceptance of the former.


----------



## Johnny b

Littlefield said:


> I am glad you can say freaking on this forum now. LOL


Is this something Like Trump making it legal to say 'Merry Christmas' ?


----------



## valis

Littlefield said:


> I am glad you can say freaking on this forum now. LOL


if that is what you take from that, glad you learned something.

But....there is a deeper message there.


----------



## Littlefield

I am laughing at all the freaking hysteria. LOL


----------



## valis

Johnny-be-Good said:


> There definitely seems a need to reevaluate the way things have played out.
> The Constitution as written is logical. Interpretations, however, too often reflect political influence.
> Rebuilding a society with newly written laws from scratch, with those influences still present,
> with input, likely builds another flawed pattern of justice and injustice.
> And the Trumpian plan doesn't seem to embrace equality for all let alone the concept of a democratic society.
> 
> The current mentality to surrender to a hostile foreign power in the name of peace is probably the worst of it, lack of intellectual capabilities with in a society a close second and obviously inducing the acceptance of the former.


Pegged it with the 'current interpretations'. Correct me if I am wrong, but our Constitution is one of the longer serving ones out there. It may need some updating.

And again, and I cannot stress this enough; any system that elects a Grand Cheeto as the boss, AND gives someone as utterly unqualified as a sea anemone the keys to the nukes, has serious, if not fatal, flaws.


----------



## valis

Littlefield said:


> I am laughing at all the freaking hysteria. LOL


in that case, you missed the joke. But hey, glad you are laughing. Beats the alternative.


----------



## Johnny b

valis said:


> Pegged it with the 'current interpretations'. Correct me if I am wrong, but our Constitution is one of the longer serving ones out there. It may need some updating.
> 
> And again, and I cannot stress this enough; any system that elects a Grand Cheeto as the boss, AND gives someone as utterly unqualified as a sea anemone the keys to the nukes, has serious, if not fatal, flaws.


Agreed.
There are technologies the Founders had no ability to consider.

And interpretations on top of interpretations seem to risk opportunity for abuse.

To that last comment....yeah. Sad commentary


----------



## Johnny b

Johnny-be-Good said:


> * US economy grows at fastest pace since 2014 *......................


And now the hard fact that much of that growth is illusionary.

* The hole in the Trump economy *

https://finance.yahoo.com/news/hole-trump-economy-175730768.html



> Economist Bernard Baumohl of the Economic Outlook Group argues that temporary factors accounted for a considerable portion of the latest GDP numbers, and that without those effects, the economy would have grown just 2.5%, not 4.1%. Three temporary factors pumped up the latest numbers, Baumohl says: the Trump tax cuts, a surge in government spending, and a rush to ship some exports out of the country before new tariffs went into effect.


----------



## Johnny b

Incredible logic by Trump's lawyer, Giuliani.
And Comey's sophistry not much better.

*Giuliani says he's not sure collusion is a crime despite Mueller investigation *

https://www.cnn.com/2018/07/30/politics/rudy-giuliani-collusion-crime-cnntv/index.html



> President Donald Trump's lawyer, Rudy Giuliani, said Monday that he's not sure collusion with Russia would be considered a crime.





> The President has repeatedly denied that there was any collusion between his campaign and Moscow. But he has made a similar argument to that of Giuliani's, telling The New York Times in December that "There is no collusion, and even if there was, it's not a crime."
> At a CNN town hall in April, former FBI Director James Comey, whom Trump fired, said collusion "is not actually a thing that exists under the federal laws of the United States."
> Instead, Comey continued, the question is whether any Americans conspired with a foreign government to commit crimes against the US, which is a crime.


However, it's rather obvious people on Trump's election team did involve themselves in 'collusion' by the mere fact of:



> Since Mueller's investigation began in spring 2017, the probe has resulted in criminal charges against several Russian nationals, five Americans and one Dutch citizen and three corporate entities. One of those people has already been sentenced and served a month in prison, while three others pleaded guilty and await sentencing.


Bottom line, Trump's lawyer seems to be trying to marginalize treason.


----------



## Johnny b

So much for Trump's 'kissy-huggie' bromance with the North Korean dictator, Kim Jong Un.

Trump: "there is no longer a Nuclear Threat from North Korea."

* North Korea reportedly developing new missiles, after pledging denuclearization *

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/world/2018/07/31/north-korea-missiles/869632002/



> The Washington Post, which first reported the development, said Monday that U.S. intelligence agencies are seeing signs that Pyongyang is building the missiles in the same research facility that manufactured the country's first intercontinental ballistic missiles (ICBMs) that are capable of reaching the U.S. mainland.
> 
> Evidence indicates that work has begun to build at least one and possibly two liquid-fueled ICBMs at the site in Sanumdong, on the outskirts of the capital Pyongyang, WaPo reported, citing officials speaking on condition of anonymity because they are not authorized to discuss classified intelligence.


----------



## Johnny b

This is how bad our society has gotten when sizable proportions of Trump followers have no problems backing a foreign power, an enemy, in deciding who leads our government:

* Some Republicans approve of Russia's help in elections *

https://finance.yahoo.com/news/republicans-want-russia-influence-us-elections-202847050.html



> American intelligence officials say Russia is still trying to interfere with U.S. elections, as the November midterms approach. And Russian dictator Vladimir Putin has said he prefers Donald Trump in the White House.
> 
> That's okay with some Republicans, according to a Yahoo Finance/SurveyMonkey poll of 2,509 Americans conducted July 25-27. In the survey, 11% of people who identify as Republican or lean Republican say it's "appropriate" for Russia to help Republicans keep control of Congress in the upcoming elections. Another 29% say it's "not appropriate, but wouldn't be a big deal" for the Russians to help. So combined, 40% of Republicans either approve of Russian interference, or don't strongly object to it.


----------



## Johnny b

* Trump claims you need ID to buy groceries. You do not. *

https://www.cnn.com/2018/08/01/politics/trump-grocery-shopping-id/index.html



> "We believe that only American citizens should vote in American elections, which is why the time has come for voter ID, like everything else. Voter ID," Trump told the crowd of supporters gathered at the Florida State Fairgrounds.
> .........
> "You know, if you go out and you want to buy groceries, you need a picture on a card, you need ID," Trump continued. "You go out and you want to buy anything, you need ID and you need your picture."


And his Florida supporters went wild with cheerful support 

That is just so sad and so wrong.

So. How about this?
Trump is pulling out the stops with sanctions on Turkey to free an American religious leader held on spy charges while at the same time ordering session to stop the investigation into Russian involvement in corrupting/influencing our elections which is still occurring!!!

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news...kish-officials-over-pastors-arrest/881022002/

https://www.cnn.com/2018/08/01/politics/donald-trump-jeff-sessions/index.html

Evangelicals love him and so do the Russians 
What a pair!


----------



## valis

why does the phrase 'may we see your papers' come to mind?


----------



## Johnny b

Why, it was just a day or so ago I read Trump was trying to work something out with the Chinese in order to stave off further tariffs.

Well, here we go:

* Donald Trump threatens billions more in China trade tariffs; Beijing says it won't respond to U.S. 'blackmail' *

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news...re-than-double-china-trade-tariffs/882232002/



> President Donald Trump's administration threatened Wednesday to more than double tariffs on $200 billion of Chinese goods, escalating a trade war hours after a Chinese official warned Beijing would not respond to U.S. "blackmail."
> 
> Even as many Republicans on Capitol Hill have grown increasingly wary of Trump's trade policies, Trump asked U.S. Trade Representative Robert Lighthizer to increase tariffs on the Chinese goods to 25 percent, up from the 10 percent announced earlier this year, according to a statement from the USTR office.


I get the strangest feeling of this being created in either the Far Side or the Twilight Zone as some kind of perverse joke.
(sigh!)
If only it weren't real.


----------



## Johnny b

valis said:


> why does the phrase 'may we see your papers' come to mind?


I doubt many know what that means, Tim.

I seem to remember sometime in the mid 80's or so, there was a proposal to do exactly that at state borders but was quickly dismissed.

With cars GPS chipped, smart phones the same now and a trail of credit card receipts 
marking our travels, I suspect the government knows who travels when and where.
The paper would be permission and a final act of control.


----------



## valis

I disagree; I believe anyone who knows who Hitler is knows that phrase. I would hope so at least.

I guess this is where I say something about learning or repeating history; hope everyone gets that. 

I guarantee, with todays technology, we are tracked and have been for a while. Not a shock there.

Gotta say, graduated HS in the 80s and while I freely admit that decade is fuzzy at best in my memory, I never heard of showing papers to cross state borders. That would sort of invalidate the 'US' part of the USA in my opinion.


----------



## valis

Also, as for the Twilight Zone; again, 'we' elected him.

(cues the theme song)


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## Johnny b

valis said:


> I disagree; I believe anyone who knows who Hitler is knows that phrase. I would hope so at least.
> ..............................


I would hope so, too.

But how many people think first of Hitler and travel documents?
Realistically, it's history represented in Movies and TV shows of the distant past and mostly (edit) of the war years..

I don't, not first that is.
I think of the USSR(Russia) and it's imposition on nations it conquered and made into satellite nations. Travel docs were a big thing there also.
And in existence during my life.....and yours.
Now consider an earlier post of mine where 40% of Republicans have no issue over Russia influencing our elections.
They forgot about travel docs? Selective amnesia? Don't know? Never knew?

This is what I first think of when the term is used:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soviet_Union_passport

And note, from the Wiki article, still in effect in Russia today.


----------



## Chawbacon

Interesting. Naturally, I am against the requirement for travel documents when simply traveling (non-air travel) within the U.S.; however, I have zero issues with a voter ID requirement? It just makes sense to minimize voter fraud that could affect the outcome of any election within the U.S.


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## Johnny b

These are the requirements for voter ID in Ohio and I have no issue with them:

https://www.sos.state.oh.us/elections/voters/id-requirements/

But all Walmart wants is my money


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## Johnny b

Incredible propaganda and sophistry from a Trump that also happens to be involved with Russian collusion in our electoral process:

* Trump Jr. says the Democratic Party platform is similar to the Nazis' *

https://www.cnn.com/2018/08/02/politics/donald-trump-jr-dinesh-dsouza/index.html



> President Donald Trump's eldest son said the platform of the Democratic Party is similar to that of the Nazi Party in Germany during the early 1930s and that history classes are biased against conservatives.
> In a video posted Thursday by the pro-Trump One America News Network, Jack Posobiec -- a prominent right-wing voice online who supported the Pizzagate hoax -- spoke with Donald Trump Jr., who compared the present-day Democratic Party to Nazis and disparaged history taught by academics.


Says the guy supporting his father that has used neo-Nazis, the KKK and Supremacist groups in a similar fashion to Hitler's use of Brown Shirts as Hitler rose to power. ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unite_the_Right_rally )

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sturmabteilung

Is Trump a new 'Hitler' ?
IMO, NO!

IMO, Trump is a puppet of Putin, using tactics of the past to disrupt the power of the US in favor of Russia.

BTW, the leftists of the Democratic party are obviously socialist oriented, but not the form of National Socialism that Hitler promoted.

It's been said, if a lie is told often enough, it becomes the 'truth'.
The issue is, how many weak minds realize the differences.


----------



## Johnny b

As rosy and fantastic Trump claims the economy to be, consider this article and keep watching and reading financial reports that do not come from politicians:

* Trump's tax cuts will widen the trade deficit and hurt GDP *

https://finance.yahoo.com/news/trumps-tax-cuts-will-widen-trade-deficit-hurt-gdp-151536871.html



> The U.S. trade deficit in June widened by $3.2 billion and Trump's own policies could be to blame.
> 
> After narrowing for three straight months, the U.S. trade balance with the rest of the world expanded in June to $46.3 billion as exports slowed. Exports rose sharply in prior months as the potential impacts from tariffs imposed by the Trump administration were front-run.
> 
> Economists at Barclays see Friday's report as a harbinger of things to come, as the tax cuts boosting the U.S. economy will continue to grow imports while exports growth is likely to slow as firms deal with the impact of tariffs. Imports subtract from the GDP calculation while exports add to GDP growth.


imo, a lot more of interest there but too much to copy and paste.


----------



## Johnny b

* AP FACT CHECK: Trump says US Steel opening mills. Not so. *

https://finance.yahoo.com/news/ap-fact-check-trump-says-us-steel-opening-003432360.html



> "U.S. Steel just announced that they're building six new steel mills."
> 
> .......
> The Pittsburgh-based company has made no such announcement. U.S. Steel spokeswoman Meghan Cox declined to comment on Trump's claim but said any "operational changes" such as the opening of new mills would be "publicly announced" and "made available on our website" if it occurred.


Sooooo....
Anyone wonder where Trump keeps pulling his fake news out of?


----------



## Wino

Wish I could get some of whatever he's smoking, although I believe Cheech and/or Chong would be a better POTUS as even they are not more delusional than the Orange Pus Pocket.


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## Chawbacon

Sigh... And this is where my confidence in this president falls short. 

He either intentionally lied, misunderstood the data set, confused the information with a different data set, or was hoodwinked by U.S. Steel into making this statement. Either way this is an embarrassment. 

Should be interesting to see the spin on this one though. I am guessing something to the tune of... He meant US steel as a collective statement, not the company named U.S. steel. Better hope there are seven startup steel mills then Mr. President; because, the Democrats will be counting.


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## Wino

Trust me - it's the first in your list. The misunderstood, confused or hoodwinked only applies to citizens watching this slow motion train wreck.


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## valis

yup, option a there; he is solely self-serving. The sad part is we will be paying for the checks his ego writes.


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## Johnny b

Chawbacon said:


> Sigh... And this is where my confidence in this president falls short.
> .....................................)


As most things in life are relative, so are the impacts of politics on our lives.

There is little impact of how many steel mills are being built other than Trump's reputation for truthfulness. Trump's record with fact checks was already incredulous before his BS claim about new steel mills.

Confidence? 
Seriously, what does that mean beyond the definition of the term?
Confidence to do what?
Defend our society, or support an aggressor?
Polls do show there is an element in our society, of citizens that approve of Russian influence in our electoral process.
The Russians have great confidence in Trump. Just ask Putin 

Is a misrepresentation of newly constructed steel mills more disturbing than a 2 hour secret meeting between Trump and Putin, given that, despite all the evidence of Russian intrusion into our elections and the position of all our intel services, Trump denies Russian involvement and acts as if a proxy for the Russians.

Confidence.

Obviously it depends on point of view and what is expected.

IMO, Trump's lies about immigration issues are a greater concern.
IMO, Trump's tariff policies are a greater concern.
IMO, Trump's apparent connection to alt right, neo Nazi, KKK and white supremacist groups is a greater concern.
IMO, the current legal problems of many within Trump's campaign including even members of his own family, are a greater concern.

Then add my previous comments about his buddy Putin, and the 'confidence' factor seems to relate to how efficient Trump is at being a 'wrecking ball'.



Collusion, collusion, collusion 
Great confidence


----------



## Chawbacon

Johnny-be-Good said:


> Confidence?
> Seriously, what does that mean beyond the definition of the term?
> Confidence to do what?


Confidence to communicate without sounding like a liar, complete idiot, or a total butt head.



Johnny-be-Good said:


> Is a misrepresentation of newly constructed steel mills more disturbing than a 2 hour secret meeting between Trump and Putin, given that, despite all the evidence of Russian intrusion into our elections and the position of all our intel services, Trump denies Russian involvement and acts as if a proxy for the Russians.


Lets be clear here, the meeting was not secret; however, it was a private meeting. It would have been nice if the meeting had been more open; however, with all of the leaks (false and valid) that have spawned from previous communications between Trump and other foreign leaders, I can comprehend the allure of conducting private meeting with other heads of state. Regardless, simply because a meeting is private, that does not mean that the meeting was nefarious (as many liberals pointed out in the past over the Clinton-Lynch tarmac meeting). Also it does not mean that the private meeting was not for nefarious measures either. I am of the opinion, for all of the obvious reasons, that this was definitely not one one of Trumps better decisions.



Johnny-be-Good said:


> IMO, Trump's lies about immigration issues are a greater concern.
> IMO, Trump's tariff policies are a greater concern.
> IMO, Trump's apparent connection to alt right, neo Nazi, KKK and white supremacist groups is a greater concern.
> IMO, the current legal problems of many within Trump's campaign including even members of his own family, are a greater concern.


I have no problem with using tariffs to create a more equitable economic playing field between the U.S. and other nations.
I am admittedly not up to speed on the mentioned neo Nazi , KKK, and white supremacist group concerns. Care to elucidate? 
Seems like every administration has individuals with legal problems since the Reagan years and in all honesty, said legal problems probably reach back much further than my knowledge of events. That in no way makes potentially illegal actions acceptable and hopefully the U.S. Justice system will be able to sort out the riffraff.



Johnny-be-Good said:


> Collusion, collusion, collusion
> Great confidence


Just remember that collusion in not a Federal crime (minus some narrowly defined exceptions surrounding anti-trust law). Granted, there could be some other type of illegal activity related to collusion that occurred, which again, we will have to let the U.S. Justice system sort out the riffraff.


----------



## Johnny b

> Confidence to communicate without sounding like a liar, complete idiot, or a total butt head.



Thank you for making it personal. 
I finally get to see the real 'you'.



> Lets be clear here, the meeting was not secret; however, it was a private meeting.


LOL!
What was discussed is still a secret between Trump, Putin and their interpreters.

So, your game seems to be sophistry. Shocking.



> It would have been nice if the meeting had been more open



More open? Like someone that could report on it?

Hint.....that's what made everything conversed between the two secret, no one to comment on what was discussed after Trump prostrated himself to a dictator in front of cameras for all the world to see.



> however, with all of the leaks (false and valid) that have spawned from previous communications between Trump and other foreign leaders, I can comprehend the allure of conducting private meeting with other heads of state.


And yet, If Obama or H Clinton were to do the same, you and I both know the whining would be heard from coast to coast with claims of conspiracy and <shudder> collusion LOL!

Take the hint, even Trump's people around him aren't trusted to keep secrets. Some might even be patriots LOL!



> Regardless, simply because a meeting is private, that does not mean that the meeting was nefarious


I think you have issues with reading comprehension.
This was my point:
* "Trump denies Russian involvement and acts as if a proxy for the Russians. "*
And has a meeting with Putin where the conversations are *secret*.
Those are facts, not fake news out of Prison Planet or Fox News.



> I have no problem with using tariffs to create a more equitable economic playing field between the U.S. and other nations.


I fully realize that.
That's on you.



> I am admittedly not up to speed on the mentioned neo Nazi , KKK, and white supremacist group concerns. Care to elucidate?


Sure.
One word explains a lot. Charlottesville. Unite the Right Rally where Trump initially got caught up defending the groups as 'decent people'.
But you left out the 'alt right'. Bannon and Breitbart are the nationalists connected to Trump during the election with Bannon being a close confidant. But like many, they've lost favor. But the imagery remains.
Is Trump the 'new Hitler'? I don't think so.
I see him as an opportunistic proxy of Putin, using any angle that benefits himself.



> Seems like every administration has individuals with legal problems since the Reagan years and in all honesty, said legal problems probably reach back much further than my knowledge of events.


And it seems that Trump is the first to be installed as President with the aid of a foreign enemy that all our intel services claim were interfering.
Not even Nixon colluded with an enemy.



> Just remember that collusion in not a Federal crime


Again with the sophistry.
Collusion has no legal definition in Federal law,
But obstruction to hide collision is a crime and accepting aid from a foreign nation for electoral advantage is both collusion and a crime.

The way it's looking, you are going to be crying in your Klinskoye Svetloe for a long time, comrade. [/b][/b]


----------



## Chawbacon

Johnny-be-Good said:


> LOL!
> What was discussed is still a secret between Trump, Putin and their interpreters.
> 
> So, your game seems to be sophistry. Shocking.


Per Merriam-Webster the definition of the words in question are:

Secret: 1a : kept from knowledge or view. (Hidden)
Private: 1a : intended for or restricted to the use of a particular person, group, or class (a private park).

The meeting was not secret; because, anyone who follows U.S. or Russian politics at all would have known about the meeting. That makes the meeting private.

So definitely not sophistry; because, there was nothing fallacious within my statement. I believe that an argument of semantics would have more success on this particular topic.



Johnny-be-Good said:


> Sure.
> One word explains a lot. Charlottesville. Unite the Right Rally where Trump initially got caught up defending the groups as 'decent people'.
> But you left out the 'alt right'. Bannon and Breitbart are the nationalists connected to Trump during the election with Bannon being a close confidant. But like many, they've lost favor. But the imagery remains.
> Is Trump the 'new Hitler'? I don't think so.
> I see him as an opportunistic proxy of Putin, using any angle that benefits himself.


OK. On Charlottesville... Yeah... A terrible statement by Trump without adequate qualifiers. However, after reading up on this subject, I do not see where Trump supported a group on either side, in fact Trump later condemned the violent groups on both sides of the protest. Trump's statement targeted good individuals on either side of the issue concerning the removal of historic monuments associated with the Confederacy. Is it reasonable to believe that there were non violent individuals and non-white supremacists that were present to protest the removal of a monument? Is it reasonable to believe that there were non violent individuals and non-ANTIFA related individuals present to advocate for the removal of a monument? The obvious answer is YES to both questions.

As for Bannon and Breitbart - I agree the imagery remains. The question here is did Trump know about and hire these individuals based upon their views on race (accusations), or on other policy and agenda stances.



Johnny-be-Good said:


> And it seems that Trump is the first to be installed as President with the aid of a foreign enemy that all our intel services claim were interfering.
> Not even Nixon colluded with an enemy.


Nope! Bill Clinton is the reason we have such vague campaign finance laws where foreign nationals and other foreign entities are concerned.
If memory serves me correctly, a little something about 100 million dollars of illegal campaign finance funds, with a significant amount originating from China. 

By the way, here is a nice quote from then VP Al Gore on that subject:

"My counsel advised me that there is no controlling legal authority or case that says that there was any violation of law whatsoever in the manner in which I asked people to contribute to our reelection campaign." Furthermore, Gore confessed that, "On a few occasions, I made some telephone calls, from my office in the White House, using a DNC credit card. I was advised there was nothing wrong with that practice. The Hatch Act has a specific provision saying that, while federal employees are prohibited from requesting campaign contributions, the president and the vice president are not covered by that act because, obviously, we are candidates." (Al Gore White House press conference, 3/3/97; _The Washington Times_, 3/4/97)


----------



## valis

Nice dodge. As Johnny did not technically ask a question, let me ask it; do you disagree with all the facts pointing to Russian assistance in getting Trump into office? 

He is TOTALLY in Putin's pocket.


----------



## valis

Btw, Chawbacon, I do enjoy your replies; well thought out with obvious thought put into them. Just because they are wrong (I kid here; we all know what opinions are like) is no reason for me not to say welcome, and again, they are appreciated.


----------



## Johnny b

> Per Merriam-Webster the definition of the words in question are:
> 
> Secret: 1a : kept from knowledge or view. (Hidden)
> Private: 1a : intended for or restricted to the use of a particular person, group, or class (a private park).


Sophistry:
https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/sophistry
*subtly deceptive reasoning or argumentation *

You've nailed the definition of 'Secret' and used sophistry to advance a fallacious image. 
I explained it earlier, and yet you ignored it, so again:
My earlier statement: * "What was discussed is still a secret between Trump, Putin and their interpreters." *

That was a secret conversation , nothing is known of what transpired. The meeting was secret. All that is known is two leaders and their interpreters were in the same room for several hours.

So, contextually, you have not been honest with me or those reading this thread.



> So definitely not sophistry; because, there was nothing fallacious within my statement.


Really? 



> OK. On Charlottesville... Yeah... A terrible statement by Trump without adequate qualifiers.


What would be an 'adequate qualifier' that rationalizes embracing violence, racial hatred and National Socialism?
I think your game plan is to rationalize away Trump's detractors.
IMO, not working.



> Trump's statement targeted good individuals on either side of the issue concerning the removal of historic monuments associated with the Confederacy.


You are straying from the reasons behind the rally.
It was to 'Unite the Right'. A gathering of extremists opposed by extremists resulting in violence as the Nation watch a spectacle Trump gave no disapproval of,
His comments actually were silent approval which he later denied, a common tactic of Trump, make absurd claims and contradict them later for the obvious purpose of rebuttal.



> The obvious answer is YES to both questions.


But you are dodging how Trump factored into Charlottesville.
The issue is about Trump and the alt right ( Nationalists, Neo Nazis, KKK and White Supremacist groups) , not about the general public and monuments. 
Interesting attempt at a dodge, but imo, not very creative.



> The question here is did Trump know about and hire these individuals based upon their views on race (accusations), or on other policy and agenda stances.


This is about the only good point you've brought up 
But not for what you might think.
If Trump is that incredibly stupid, he had no right to be considered for nomination in the primaries. Only an ignorant and more likely stupid voter would over look those associations before casting votes in a primary.
Your point is a good argument that Trump is/was never suitable for the most important job in the US government.

My comment:
*"And it seems that Trump is the first to be installed as President with the aid of a foreign enemy that all our intel services claim were interfering. " *



> Nope! Bill Clinton is the reason we have such vague campaign finance laws where foreign nationals and other foreign entities are concerned.
> If memory serves me correctly, a little something about 100 million dollars of illegal campaign finance funds, with a significant amount originating from China.


No doubt China had influence on Clinton.
But the 'pay for play' seems to have bought influence in the decisions of B Clinton's administration ( imo, an obvious criminal act in accepting the 'donations' ) , there was no apparent intrusion by China into our electoral process as the Russians have done.
If you'd like to arrest B Clinton, I wouldn't object 

But I'm sticking with my original statement.
*" it seems that Trump is the first to be installed as President with the aid of a foreign enemy that all our intel services claim were interfering'* DIRECTLY!



> By the way, here is a nice quote from then VP Al Gore on that subject:


In case you are confused (  ) the issue before us is the connection ....of direct interference by Russian operatives within the US and through cyber warfare in relation to our 2016 election and connections to Trump's election campaign and Trump himself.

Comrade, you're spinning out of control


----------



## Johnny b

valis said:


> Nice dodge. As Johnny did not technically ask a question, let me ask it; do you disagree with all the facts pointing to Russian assistance in getting Trump into office?
> 
> He is TOTALLY in Putin's pocket.


I was having too good of a time with details 

Yeah, 'assistance'.
Collusion?


----------



## valis

I was trying to be polite.


----------



## Chawbacon

valis said:


> Nice dodge. As Johnny did not technically ask a question, let me ask it; do you disagree with all the facts pointing to Russian assistance in getting Trump into office?
> 
> He is TOTALLY in Putin's pocket.


Thanks! And guilty as charged on the dodge job. 

I definitely do not disagree with all of the facts linking Trump to receiving Russian assistance and I have some grave concerns on some of the specific Russian ties. I am just not sure that Trump actively sought to undermine the U.S. election process.

I have listened to the dedicated Democrats claim that Trump is a buffoon, an idiot, a womanizer, an unfaithful cheat, a racist, and a total moron (just to name a few descriptors), that inherited his money, and that he is unqualified to do anything except wash car windows on the corner of Mission and 10th Street while looking for a sympathetic handout; but, these individuals claim at the same time that Trump is the mastermind of a gigantic collusion scheme designed to disenfranchise the entire electoral system. In my mind, both versions of an observed truth cannot be true.

Conversely, the dedicated Trump supporters ignore, or justify, gross political missteps made by Trump and think that he poops golden bricks; but, several of his actions should make everyone who punches a ballot pause and consider whether their support for Trump is justified, while keeping in mind that many issues go beyond their personal orbit (regardless of the lack of oxygen).

My biggest problem, as you have heard me echo before, is that the media on both sides amplify, play down, lie, intentionally misreport and misrepresent, or completely omit facts that are relevant to the issues at hand. Forcing me to waste too much time in a determination process that results in what I think is the truth. They need to leave out the opinion politics and just report the facts.

Sorry for the long answer/rant pal.


----------



## Johnny b

Those are reasonable concerns Chawbacon.


----------



## valis

and please remember; Trump is just an end-result of a complete failure in sooo many aspects of US society. Capitalism gone mad. Some will say this will lead the media to say what they are paid to say, and I am glad to say I am one of those people.

If one cannot think for themselves and make rational decisions, generally they will be willingly led. Hence the media. Motto: If you dont have an opinion we can provide several.


----------



## Johnny b

Speaking of providing 'opinions', here's the type of opinion the RNC and Trump would like to share.
As a paid up member of the RNC, I get quite a lot of it (  )

(disclaimer: I have removed anything that would identify me thus saving me the indignities of death threats (   ) )

It might take several posts to upload it all, please be patient


----------



## Johnny b

Now for the survey itself:


----------



## Johnny b

Nothing like absolutes and extremes to set opinions


----------



## Chawbacon

Johnny-be-Good said:


> Nothing like absolutes and extremes to set opinions


Well, there was an "UNSURE" option; but, this is definitely a survey that uses political outrage as a conduit for obtaining monetary support.


----------



## valis

again; capitalism gone mad.


----------



## Johnny b

Chawbacon said:


> Well, there was an "UNSURE" option; but, this is definitely a survey that uses political outrage as a conduit for obtaining monetary support.


You miss the point of being a 'conservative'.
To be one is to never be unsure, otherwise we'd never have had the tragic decisions of the GW Bush administration to invade Iraq under questionable claims, executed, along with 70% of the US population convinced Saddam had something to do with 911 and agreeing.

You just read a propaganda piece and didn't recognize it as such.
I'm pretty sure left wing Democrats are distributing their own versions, also.

Both are logical fallacies. It's called 'begging the question'.
Deriving a premise that supports itself.


----------



## Johnny b

valis said:


> again; capitalism gone mad.


Please, no Balkanization claims in this thread  LOL!


----------



## Chawbacon

Johnny-be-Good said:


> You miss the point of being a 'conservative'.
> To be one is to never be unsure, otherwise we'd never have had the tragic decisions of the GW Bush administration to invade Iraq under questionable claims, executed, along with 70% of the US population convinced Saddam had something to do with 911 and agreeing.
> 
> You just read a propaganda piece and didn't recognize it as such.
> I'm pretty sure left wing Democrats are distributing their own versions, also.
> 
> Both are logical fallacies. It's called 'begging the question'.
> Deriving a premise that supports itself.


There is no need to be rude or accusatory here.

Also, please note that I easily passed Logical Thinking 101 in college; therefore, I do not need a lesson in the multiple fallacies that can be pointed out legitimately, or created through convoluted logic, on any given subject which are used to _muddy the waters._ 

Personally, I tend to avoid micro-analyzing statements for fallacies, or I may run the risk of sounding extremely sophomoric to other readers. Instead, I attempt to respond with an organized thought process that supports my point-of-view. And if I disagree with a posters comment, I do not brand them as a liar, or as suffering from some type of mental disorder, etc... I prefer to point out my disagreement through polite discourse; because, I understand that just because someone states that something is a lie, or makes an derogatory comment, that does not make said statement true (especially when dealing with political opinion). 

Back on your topic... I fully realize that was a propaganda piece. A viewpoint which I clearly indicated through the statement of "a survey that uses political outrage as a conduit for obtaining monetary support". Now, we should be careful to not brand any group as being of one mind and one goal. Although, assuming that your percentage is correct above, it is a sad state of affairs when a large percentage of any group believes in a provable untruth. Similar to people that believe that Saddam did not have, and that the U.S. did not find, weapons of mass destruction in Iraq (just a little research will prove otherwise). This gets back to the media not being fully honest on both sides. People tend to pick a side and only listen to that particular viewpoint, resulting in this type of falsehood propagation.


----------



## valis

Johnny-be-Good said:


> ...You just read a propaganda piece and didn't recognize it as such.
> .....


this. This is the core issue here. The USA is being led by the all-mighty dollar and 90% of the populace either dont care about it, or are unaware of it.

We put a billionaire in office and are upset he is taking care of other billionaires. As Carlin said, think about how stupid the average human is, and then remember half of them are dumber than that.


----------



## Johnny b

Rude?
Accusatory?
Me?

Perhaps you are merely too sensitive and rather hypocritical on top of it.
Would you like me to point out the personal descriptions you threw at me out of the blue?

Let's compare:
You posted at me.....


> Confidence to communicate without sounding like a liar, complete idiot, or a total butt head.


This is what I just posted to you:


> You miss the point of being a 'conservative'.
> To be one is to never be unsure.....
> .....
> You just read a propaganda piece and didn't recognize it as such.


And you think that's offensive? 

And to the fallacy I pointed out, get used to it.
That was a major example of one.
Personally, I find common sense is easier to work with, but now I'm wondering if you'd understand.



> I do not brand them as a liar, or as suffering from some type of mental disorder, etc... I prefer to point out my disagreement through polite discourse; because, I understand that just because someone states that something is a lie, or makes an derogatory comment, that does not make said statement true


So far, about all I'm seeing in rebuttal is a regurgitation of talking points from the Trump camp and their supporters that are constantly in contention with fact checking as I have pointed out and you seem to desperately redefine as fake news in subtle ways.
Jigs up on 'fake news'. It's what Trump doesn't like to read.



> Back on your topic... I fully realize that was a propaganda piece.


A little late to go from a 'donations piece' to agreeing what it really was after I challenged you, don't you think?
BTW, that is exactly the trick Trump thinks he's playing on his followers as he makes secondary claims for denial of many of his initial positions. Charlottesville a prime example.



> Now, we should be careful to not brand any group as being of one mind and one goal.


And you claimed to handle intel in the military? Really?
I think it can be done.
Each and every administration has had one leader with an agenda sold to the voters.
TRUMP has his, he calls it 'Make America Great'. Only his actions seem to betray him.
Obama had his. 'Change'. And he embrace elements of socialism that many thought slowed down economic progress.
GW Bush was a 'Compassionate Conservative' that bombed the hell out of Iraq and set off further resistance we're still dealing with. Ignored the financial health of our economy to the abuses by the banking and securities industry.
B Clinton had his goals.
GH Bush had his goals.
Reagan had his goals.
Even Carter had his goals.

And they were largely followed till out of office.
So Stop with the BS. It doesn't sell. 



> Although, assuming that your percentage is correct above, it is a sad state of affairs when a large percentage of any group believes in a provable untruth.


Don't be shy, if you want to challenge me on something, don't be so wishy washy about it.
Challenge me outright. I do make mistakes. But I'm not interested in discussing your present 'Ifs'.



> Similar to people that believe that Saddam did not have, and that the U.S. did not find, weapons of mass destruction in Iraq (just a little research will prove otherwise).


Been there, done that.

*So I challenge you to show Saddam had the weapons of mass destruction that the Bush administration claimed.*

Remembering that lack of evidence is not evidence, this is an issue wholly in your court to prove they existed.



> This gets back to the media not being fully honest on both sides. People tend to pick a side and only listen to that particular viewpoint, resulting in this type of falsehood propagation.


And that proves, what?
There are either the WMD that the Bush Administration claimed existed, or there is no proof.

So, please back up your claim with proof.


----------



## Johnny b

OK, Jack, I'll help you out in the interests of preventing you wasting your time 

From the mouth of GW Bush


----------



## Johnny b

Dayamn.....must be fake news


----------



## Johnny b

Sadly I couldn't find the 60 Minutes interview where Bush was asked where the WMDs were and looked under his desk and shrugged his shoulders.

That was a hoot.
( Dark humor, nothing really funny about it )


----------



## Chawbacon

... And thus my point is proven... Sigh.



Johnny-be-Good said:


> Confidence?
> Seriously, what does that mean beyond the definition of the term?
> Confidence to do what?





Chawbacon said:


> Confidence to communicate without sounding like a liar, complete idiot, or a total butt head.


Since the point was where my confidence in trump deviated, my response was obviously directed at Trump and was answering your question. This comment was in no way directed towards you.



Johnny-be-Good said:


> And you think that's offensive?


Actually, I was thinking of the many other occasions that your posts attempt to paint my character in a negative light, or degrade any intelligence level I may possess; but, after seeing your response to my last post... I understand.



Johnny-be-Good said:


> *So I challenge you to show Saddam had the weapons of mass destruction that the Bush administration claimed.*
> 
> Remembering that lack of evidence is not evidence, this is an issue wholly in your court to prove they existed.


Yep. Republicans decided to not go public on the WMD's. Big mistake in my opinion.

https://www.nytimes.com/interactive...casualties-of-iraq-chemical-weapons.html?_r=0

Have to be able to read between the lines on the above. The below sums it up a bit better.

https://thepoliticalinsider.com/bombshell-new-york-times-reports-wmds-found-iraq/


----------



## Chawbacon

valis said:


> this. This is the core issue here. The USA is being led by the all-mighty dollar and 90% of the populace either dont care about it, or are unaware of it.
> 
> We put a billionaire in office and are upset he is taking care of other billionaires. As Carlin said, think about how stupid the average human is, and then remember half of them are dumber than that.


Have to agree with you and Carlin on this one.


----------



## Johnny b

Chawbacon said:


> ... And thus my point is proven... Sigh.
> 
> Since the point was where my confidence in trump deviated, my response was obviously directed at Trump and was answering your question. This comment was in no way directed towards you.
> 
> Actually, I was thinking of the many other occasions that your posts attempt to paint my character in a negative light, or degrade any intelligence level I may possess; but, after seeing your response to my last post... I understand.
> 
> Yep. Republicans decided to not go public on the WMD's. Big mistake in my opinion.
> 
> https://www.nytimes.com/interactive...casualties-of-iraq-chemical-weapons.html?_r=0
> 
> Have to be able to read between the lines on the above. The below sums it up a bit better.
> 
> https://thepoliticalinsider.com/bombshell-new-york-times-reports-wmds-found-iraq/


That is just so sad


----------



## Johnny b

Seriously, Jack, do you even read the links you post?

In your first link:



> All had been manufactured before 1991, participants said. Filthy, rusty or corroded, a large fraction of them could not be readily identified as chemical weapons at all. Some were empty, though many of them still contained potent mustard agent or residual sarin. Most could not have been used as designed, and when they ruptured dispersed the chemical agents over a limited area, according to those who collected the majority of them.
> 
> In case after case, participants said, analysis of these warheads and shells reaffirmed intelligence failures. First, the American government did not find what it had been looking for at the war's outset, then it failed to prepare its troops and medical corps for the aged weapons it did find.


What does that mean to you?
Do you even know what the Bush Administration was referring to as WMD?


----------



## Johnny b

As to your 'proven point', look again.

Saying you were addressing Trump is incredulous. 
It's called a non sequitur.
The 'logic doesn't follow'.
You couldn't be referring to Trump because he obviously displays those traits publicly.
So you had to be referring to someone else.
If you'd like to apologize, I accept  



But you whine about me being rude and accusatory. 
Rude, I think not, but I do call it as I see it. 
You just don't seem to like owning up to your mistakes 

Well, no one does, actually 

See you tomorrow


----------



## Johnny b

Chawbacon said:


> .................
> 
> Also, please note that I easily passed Logical Thinking 101 in college; therefore, I do not need a lesson in the multiple fallacies that can be pointed out legitimately, or created through convoluted logic, on any given subject which are used to _muddy the waters._
> .................................


I saw this just as I was about to log off.

OK, you have taken a college level introductory course in Logic.
I haven't.
I do have a college degree in a science.

The question: why an I seeing you post so many logical fallacies that are obvious .
A logical fallacy is an error in reasoning.
I mean, it's not like I make them up out of the blue or they don't apply.

So why keep making them?


----------



## Johnny b

Well, here we go again.

* 'Unite the Right' anniversary: White nationalists planning to rally in D.C. *

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news...t-rally-washington-charlottesville/796998002/



> When hundreds of neo-Nazis and white supremacists rallied a year ago in Charlottesville, Virginia, the demonstration turned into a riot that left one woman dead and shocked the nation.
> 
> For the August anniversary, the torch-carrying, swastika-bearing protesters wanted to repeat their demonstration in Charlottesville and in Washington, D.C.


I don't doubt Trump's comments to that effect will be closely watched and critiqued.



Chawbacon said:


> ...............
> 
> OK. On Charlottesville... Yeah... A terrible statement by Trump without adequate qualifiers. ............................


Maybe we'll get to see some of those 'adequate qualifiers' that rationalize hatred, racism and National Socialism this time around 

(In our nation's capital, of all places. What the world will think of us after that? )


----------



## Johnny b

* Russia calls new U.S. sanctions over ex-spy's poisoning 'draconian' and 'far-fetched' *

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news...-sergei-skripal-novichok-poisoning/944303002/

Unfortunately for Trump, looks like someone in the GOP grew a spine.



> The administration's announcement came after Rep. Ed Royce of California, the GOP chairman of the House Foreign Affairs Committee, called on the administration to hold Russia accountable for the Skripals' poisonings and publicly chastised the president for not acting more quickly on the matter.
> 
> "Your findings were due to the committee within 60 days," Royce wrote in a July 26 letter to Trump. "Ninety-three days have now passed since my request, yet we have not received the statutorily required determination."
> State Department spokeswoman Heather Nauert said Wednesday the administration would impose the sanctions later this month, on or around August 22.





> Russia's currency the rouble slid by over 1 percent on Thursday against the dollar.


That probably upset Trump the most


----------



## Johnny b

Chawbacon said:


> ...............
> 
> I have no problem with using tariffs to create a more equitable economic playing field between the U.S. and other nations...................................


How do you feel about destructive tariff policies?
Such as results mentioned in this news article:

* These companies might close, lay off US workers because of Trump's trade war *

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news...lay-off-american-workers-trade-war/929019002/












> Here's a list of some of the companies, sorted by state, who have announced effects from the tariffs:


Too much to copy and paste.
No doubt the list will grow.
It grows too big and our economy goes into a recession.

BTW, the list is incomplete. It doesn't address agriculture and likely other concerns yet to get attention.


----------



## Johnny b

No doubt this is only going to generate more paranoia in the White House whether it's true or false 

Scenario: Trump, unhinged conversations, recorded on Omarosa's smartphone.
Trump sure knows how to hang out with women he winds up regretting. lol!
From prostitute porn stars to Playmate concubines to reality stars.
What could ever go wrong 

* Omarosa's White House book: Did she secretly tape Trump? *

https://www.usatoday.com/story/life...e-book-did-she-secretly-tape-trump/939683002/



> The latest semi-juicy tidbit about the forthcoming "Unhinged: An Insider's Account of the Trump White House," landed Wednesday in The Daily Beast, which reported that the flamboyant former reality-TV star secretly taped her conversations with President Donald Trump on her smartphone.
> 
> Omarosa could not e reached for comment on whether or not this is true about the book, out on Aug. 14. But her publisher, Gallery Books, a division of Simon & Schuster, said in a statement to USA TODAY:
> "Without commenting on the specific contents of "Unhinged," we are confident that Omarosa Manigault Newman can substantiate her highly-anticipated account of life inside the Trump White House."


Sure, it could all be a hoax to generate book sales, but the imagery of search and seizure, any form of telecommunications and anyone in the presence of Trump is now likely to go down as a footnote in history.

Hope my library gets several copies


----------



## Johnny b

(edited because of new info)

This gets more interesting

https://finance.yahoo.com/news/omarosa-manigault-secretly-recorded-donald-170002385.html

This photo is associated with the article:










Look at the expression of the guy that Trump is apparently talking to.
Gotta wonder what was said.


----------



## Johnny b

And now the dark side of Omarosa's book:

* Omarosa claims tapes exist of Trump using N-word and her quest to find them got her fired *

https://www.usatoday.com/story/life...cist-who-used-n-word-tapes-reports/956915002/



> In her new book "Unhinged," Omarosa Manigualt Newman claims she was let go by the White House because she was trying to prove there are tapes with President Trump using the N-word on "The Apprentice."
> 
> .......
> In the book, obtained by USA TODAY, Omarosa says she is now convinced her former mentor is a "racist."
> 
> The former White House aide and reality TV star says she has not heard the tapes herself, but claims sources have told her that audio exists and that Trump uses the racial slur.
> 
> "Apprentice" producer Bill Pruitt first claimed in October 2016 that there were tapes of Trump using the N-word and other slurs on the reality TV program. Omarosa competed in the show's first season.


----------



## Wino

I'm SHOCKED!! I Tell you, SHOCKED!!!!


----------



## Johnny b

Time for some humorous news 

* Americans believe Stormy Daniels more than President Trump, poll says *

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/politics/2018/08/10/stormy-daniels-donald-trump-poll/958509002/



> A new study indicates that Americans are more likely to believe porn actress Stormy Daniels than President Donald Trump.
> 
> The poll - from YouGov/The Economist - asked 1,500 respondents between Aug. 5-7, "who do you believe more?"
> 
> In total, 34 percent said they believe Daniels, according to the poll. 30 percent said they believed Trump, 30 percent said they don't believe either of them and 6 percent said they're both "equally trustworthy."


Imagine that, a porn star has more credibility than our President. 

I'll bet even Putin chuckled at that LOL!


----------



## Johnny b

Omarosa has a contradiction to deal with:

* Omarosa tells NPR she heard tape of Trump using the N-word, contradicting her book *

https://www.usatoday.com/story/life...cist-who-used-n-word-tapes-reports/956915002/

Hmmmmm! , she could wind up with even less credibility than Trump 
This is getting even more interesting.


----------



## valis

It is interesting like a train wreck. And mind you; this is our current societal interests AND our duly elected leader. Generally, I would assume, this is cause for concern.

Reminds me of Keeping Up With Those Idiots to be quite honest.

I'm just going to find a baseball game to watch and read a Sandford book. When the news begins to resemble reality TV time to stop watching the news.


----------



## Johnny b

valis said:


> It is interesting like a train wreck. And mind you; this is our current societal interests AND our duly elected leader. Generally, I would assume, this is cause for concern.
> ................................


I've got little to say, other than at least the press exposed her contradictions in short order and
I doubt this is going to be explained away. She's got a serious problem of credibility now.


----------



## Chawbacon

Johnny-be-Good said:


> Time for some humorous news
> 
> * Americans believe Stormy Daniels more than President Trump, poll says *
> 
> https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/politics/2018/08/10/stormy-daniels-donald-trump-poll/958509002/
> 
> Imagine that, a porn star has more credibility than our President.
> 
> I'll bet even Putin chuckled at that LOL!


This poll readily demonstrates how the media (Liberal Democrat - in this case) will take every opportunity to distort reality and push a particular agenda.

So…. Let's look at the juicy numbers behind this poll. Here. (Pg 243 & 244)

Party Affiliation:
Democrat: 521
Independent: 574
Republican: 379
Total: 1,474

Hmmm… Polling Democrats over Republicans by 10%. Shocker!

Gender:

Female: 798
Male: 676

And females (who typically vote predominately Democrat) are polled over men by 8%. Not to mention that Stormy, being a female, is much more likely to be viewed as credible by females when viewing past statements made by Trump. 

Ideology:
Liberal: 429
Moderate: 424
Conservative: 498
Not Sure: 123

When you consider that Liberals and Moderates (which are supposed to be Trump haters according to the media) are polled over Conservatives by 24% - 26% (depending on how the "Not Sure" category is evaluated), this poll exposes a huge potential problem for the Democrat Party.

2016 Vote:
Clinton: 509
Trump: 482

At least the 2016 vote was only polled for Clinton over Trump by 2%, which lends this poll some credence and could indicate a potential problem for the Republican party; but, in light of the other poll differences that may be unlikely.

Obviously, this poll had to be significantly skewed in order to obtain a slight 4 point margin in favor of Daniels credibility.

So much for the media and intellectual honesty.


----------



## Johnny b

Chawbacon said:


> This poll readily demonstrates how the media (Liberal Democrat - in this case) will take every opportunity to distort reality and push a particular agenda.
> (edited for brevity )
> 
> So much for the media and intellectual honesty.


Again, reading the links gives a more accurate depiction of the contents lol!
If you had read it, you could have saved yourself a lot of silly effort.
The poll is what it is:



> The biggest divide, predictably, was between political parties. Among Republicans, 72 percent said they believe Trump more compared to 5 percent for Daniels, while 63 percent of Democrats said they believe Daniels more compared to 4 percent Trump.


In case you haven't figured it out, of 1500 respondents, there were more Democrats than Republicans responding lol!

Like I said, a little bit of humor 

Student of logic, huh? 

In case you missed a big point in the numbers, a prostitute ( woman that's paid to perform sexual acts) and the President of the Unites States both lack a lot of credibility about the same topic lol.

(But Trump did transfer a lot of money into her financial accounts ha ha ha ha !)

What is missing with these Stormy articles is not that the President hires hookers, it's about who's money he used to buy her services and silence 
If campaign finances, he's got a legal problem.
That's the issue.

But it was a fun article


----------



## Johnny b

Hey Chawbacon 

You spent a lot of time on those poll numbers, and polls never do prove much till the final one comes when we cast our votes during elections,
have you given any thought to what the Bush administration defined 'WMD' as in regards to their claims against Saddam?
Any position on destructive trade tariffs as I pointed out several posts ago?

Or is the morality of hookers and their tricks more interesting? 

edit: BTW, what kind of an "adequate qualifier" would rationalize hatred, racism and National Socialism?
googled the term 'qualifier' and got this:


> Grammar.
> 
> a word that qualifies the meaning of another, as an adjective or adverb; modifier.
> an adverb that modifies adjectives or other adverbs and typically expresses degree or intensity, as very, somewhat, or quite.


A 'qualifier' seems to refer to the status of a claim, be it as an absolute or specified degree.
Is even a little bit of hatred, racism, or National Socialism acceptable in a President?

Your thoughts, please.


----------



## valis

This is gold....https://www.huffingtonpost.com/entr...trump-space-force_us_5b6e90c8e4b0ae32af9843f7


----------



## Johnny b

Yeah.

Puppets 


Maybe you remember, that idea, military weapons platforms in space was also a neo-con Pax Americana concept back in the Bush era.

Looks like Trump is going for the neo con vote


----------



## Wino

Valis, thanks for the laughs. Almost peed myself!!


----------



## valis

Yah, that was far too good not to share. There are some talented artists in there. 


(pew pew) LOL.


----------



## Chawbacon

Been quite busy as of late. I will try to take a few minutes to answer your questions though.


Johnny-be-Good said:


> have you given any thought to what the Bush administration defined 'WMD' as in regards to their claims against Saddam?


IMO Bush was an idiot.
A WMD as defined by the military is a Chemical, biological, nuclear weapon. Said weapon can be military grade, or when it comes to chemical weapons, produced in your bathroom sink (dangerous and not recommended). It does not matter when the weapons were made, what matters is that Saddam possessed the weapons and hid said weapons from U.N. inspectors. Even though a majority of the weapons were old, the contents within the weapons were still leathal and can be transferred into new munitions. I seem to remember that a few Iraqi mobile chemical labs were also found; but, I do not have the time right now to hunt that down.


Johnny-be-Good said:


> Any position on destructive trade tariffs as I pointed out several posts ago?


First, I do not agree with the premise of the question. Yes, all tariffs are destructive to some extent and will be painful to all nations involved; however, that does not mean that an imposed tariff was purposefully designed to harm a specific industry within the U.S. Is it possible? Yes. Is it plausible? Not if Trump wants to be reelected. 


Johnny-be-Good said:


> edit: BTW, what kind of an "adequate qualifier" would rationalize hatred, racism and National Socialism?
> googled the term 'qualifier' and got this:
> A 'qualifier' seems to refer to the status of a claim, be it as an absolute or specified degree.
> Is even a little bit of hatred, racism, or National Socialism acceptable in a President?


Again, I disagree with the premise of the question. Simply because someone displays a viewpoint, believing that there are good people within any organization (not wanting to categorize people as a group), that does not mean the individual making the statement is a racist, etc... Personally, I think that Trump was speaking without realizing who was actually protesting. No, I have no proof; but, even the vast majority of the base supporting Trump will not tolerate blatant racism. An adequate qualifier would be something along the line of "The individuals who were there to peacefully protest the destruction of historic monuments are good people and the people that were there to peacefully protest against hate groups are good people." The way I see it, there is more concern from this event than just racism. During this event we also saw a suppression of the exercise of free speech, we saw people resorting to violence on both sides when their opinions are not shared by individuals with differing opinions, we saw police not performing their jobs (have to look deeper into that one) by not creating a safe procession path, and we saw the media ignore everything except Trump and his possibly racist comments.


----------



## valis

Just to verify; you do not think Trump is racist, correct?


----------



## Johnny b

Chawbacon said:


> ...........edited for brevity..............





> IMO Bush was an idiot.


No argument from me.



> A WMD as defined by the military is a .....


That's not the issue at hand.
The issue at hand are the claims of the Bush administration that claimed WMD, not evident.
Nuclear , biological and chemical weapons along with industrial capabilities to produce those weapons.
NONE was found.
Your claims are irrelevant. If you provide proof that the claims of the Bush administration are valid, then you've made a point.
In addition, the link you posted contradicted your claim that the Bush Administration found the WMD, that they claimed.
Your invitation to read between the lines was incredible 
Just imagine if I had used that kind of 'logic' LOL!
I'd never hear the end of it 
In addition, I would have embarrassed my self in front of my fellow TSG members and lost honor.
You obviously are unaware of those considerations.

GW Bush will never go down as A great American President.
I have never in the past expressed anything but contempt for the man.
But I have to say because it is necessary, it takes a big man to admit to such a big mistake that has cost hundreds of thousands of lives and many many billions of dollars with the effects still with us.

You? .....well.



> Even though a majority of the weapons were old, the contents within the weapons were still leathal and can be transferred into new munitions.


You are misrepresenting your own 'proof'.
Go back, read that NYTimes article ( you know, one of the media outlets Trumpsters call an enemy of the people, read especially the excerpt I provided, even between the lines and then consider how well your 'logic' stands up to scrutiny.
It doesn't. You seem to be in some makeup world of your own imagination.



> I seem to remember that a few Iraqi mobile chemical labs were also found; but, ......


I remember neither chem nor bio labs were found, relating to WMD claims.
And get this, it was B Clinton's 'secret little war' on Iraq years before the Bush blow up, that had our air force destroy those sites.
Only remains of those sites were found, and they had been previously destroyed by Clinton.

You posted you were in the Air Force. Something to do with intel. Why don't you know this?
It was published in the mass media.

The issue is.....the Bush Administration made claims about WMD in Iraq as part of an argument to invade.
The WMD were not found.
The US Government verified no claimed WMD were found.

But you claimed there was to my specific challenge:


> * So I challenge you to show Saddam had the weapons of mass destruction that the Bush administration claimed. *


Your linkage wasn't proof. Your suggestion to 'read between the lines' wasn't proof.
And the post I'm addressing isn't a proof.
A pathetic dodge, yes 

Jack, do you really think you can pull off a typical Trump stunt?

If so, you don't know 'Jack' LOL!



> First, I do not agree with the premise of the question.


And why should I care if you agree or not?
Just address my inquiry.



> Yes, all tariffs are destructive


Not as an absolute.
Often startup technologies are protected to prevent a foreign competitor that has an advanced form, from intensionally overwhelming the market place for superiority.



> and will be painful to all nations involved


No, see above. All you are doing is regurgitating Trumptonian nationalism.
And the issue, if you bothered to read the link I posted, which I seriously doubt, is in relation to the damage generated on our own economy by Trump's tariff war.
Trump did start it, not the intended victims, many being our allies.



> ...... that does not mean that an imposed tariff was purposefully designed to harm a specific industry within the U.S. Is it possible? Yes. Is it plausible? Not if Trump wants to be reelected.


I looked at that several times. Are you claiming Trump's actions aren't intentional?
If not, what?
The question is begged, should a President reside in the most important position of the US government .......that makes intentional decisions that lead to destruction of an economy, or .....is too stupid to understand his decisions have great potential to destroy an economy and too ignorant too reassess the issue?



> Again, I disagree with the premise of the question. Simply because someone displays a viewpoint, believing that there are good people within any organization (not wanting to categorize people as a group), that does not mean the individual making the statement is a racist, etc...


Non responsive.
You posted earlier that



> OK. On Charlottesville... Yeah... A terrible statement by Trump without adequate qualifiers.


And I'm asking you what 'qualifier' is adequate to rationalize hatred, racism and National Socialism?

Do you think you can dodge everything.
Seriously, you aren't that good with a spin.


----------



## valis

Just to verify one more thing (so two definitive answers from you, CB); do you think Trump is a good leader?


----------



## Chawbacon

valis said:


> Just to verify; you do not think Trump is racist, correct?


Well... To be honest, I am not sure one way or the other. I give people a benefit of a doubt and let their actions, words, and deeds determine what file within my brain that they need to be logged under. So far, the jury is still out on Trump. 


valis said:


> Just to verify one more thing (so two definitive answers from you, CB); do you think Trump is a good leader?


Have to make this a conditional answer.
On economic matters, yes. 
On social issues, about half & half
On communication to the public, almost completely no.

BTW - How is that popcorn?


----------



## Johnny b

I'm enjoying the popcorn, myself


----------



## Chawbacon

Johnny-be-Good said:


> That's not the issue at hand.
> The issue at hand are the claims of the Bush administration that claimed WMD not evident.
> Nuclear , biological and chemical weapons along with industrial capabilities to produce those weapons.
> NONE was found.
> Your claims are irrelevant. If you provide proof that the claims of the Bush administration are valid, then you've made a point.
> In addition, the link you posted contradicted your claim that the Bush Administration found the WMD that they claimed.
> Your invitation to read between the lines was incredible
> Just imagine if I had used that kind of 'logic' LOL!
> I'd never hear the end of it
> In addition, I would have embarrassed my self in front of my fellow TSG members and lost honor.
> You obviously are unaware of those considerations.





Johnny-be-Good said:


> You are misrepresenting your own 'proof'.
> Go back, read that NYTimes article ( you know, one of the media outlets Trumpsters call an enemy of the people, read especially the excerpt I provided, even between the lines and then consider how well your 'logic' stands up to scrutiny.
> It doesn't. You seem to be in some makeup world of your own imagination.


Let's see… The Iraqi government keeping the WMD's was a violation by Iraq. It is called refusing/failing to disarm.

For those who have not read the article, here are a few Excerpts from the previously cited NYT article.

"It was August 2008 near Taji, Iraq. They had just exploded a stack of old Iraqi artillery shells buried beside a murky lake." Turned out to be chemical munitions and the explosion exposed more unexploded munitions.

"In all, American troops secretly reported finding roughly 5,000 chemical warheads, shells or aviation bombs, according to interviews with dozens of participants, Iraqi and American officials, and heavily redacted intelligence documents obtained under the Freedom of Information Act."

"…more than 2,400 nerve-agent rockets unearthed in 2006 at a former Republican Guard compound."

"The public, he said, was misled for a decade. "I love it when I hear, 'Oh there weren't any chemical weapons in Iraq,' " he said. "There were plenty."

"But nearly a decade of wartime experience showed that old Iraqi chemical munitions often remained dangerous when repurposed for local attacks in makeshift bombs, as insurgents did starting by 2004."

Enough said?


Johnny-be-Good said:


> I remember neither chem nor bio labs were found relating to WMD claims.
> And get this, it was B Clinton's 'secret little war' on Iraq years before the Bush blow up, that had our air force destroy those sites.
> Only remains of those sites were found, and they had been previously destroyed by Clinto


This is from your vaunted CNN side of the house.
http://edition.cnn.com/2003/WORLD/meast/04/14/sprj.irq.labs/
"*KARBALA, Iraq (CNN) --* *U.S. troops have found 11 mobile laboratories buried south of Baghdad that are capable of biological and chemical uses, a U.S. general said Monday."*


Johnny-be-Good said:


> The issue is.....the Bush Administration made claims about WMD in Iraq as part of an argument to invade.
> The WMD were not found.
> The US Government verified no claimed WMD were found.


Nice try on redefining the issue. I never commented on the Bush administrations claims, or lack thereof, concerning WMD's. Feel free to go back and reread my original statement if you need clarification. 


Johnny-be-Good said:


> I looked at that several times. Are you claiming Trump's actions aren't intentional?
> If not, what?
> The question is begged, should a President reside in the most important position of the US government .......that makes intentional decisions that lead to destruction of an economy, or .....is too stupid to understand his decisions have great potential to destroy an economy and too ignorant too reassess the issue?


I am not going to dignify ridiculous questions with answers. Especially when the questions are front loaded with blatant and mischaracterized accusations. Go back and read the statement in context please. 


Johnny-be-Good said:


> And I'm asking you what 'qualifier' is adequate to rationalize hatred, racism and National Socialism?


I understand that the premise of your statement is designed to generate outrage. No one should rationalize the concerns you listed. The real question is how should the statement have been made when all of the facts may not have been known. As I stated earlier... here is a potential example "The individuals who were there to peacefully protest the destruction of historic monuments are good people and the people that were there to peacefully protest against hate groups are good people."


----------



## valis

Chawbacon said:


> Well... To be honest, I am not sure one way or the other. I give people a benefit of a doubt and let their actions, words, and deeds determine what file within my brain that they need to be logged under. So far, the jury is still out on Trump.


that is an answer in and of itself, and in my opinion, a chicken one. You can give all the benefit if the doubt you wish, but from the facts (emphasize; facts) I have read, he is not only racist, but openly homophobic and expressly misogynistic. I mean, 'grab them by the blank'? This is a comment ANY world leader shouldnt make, least of all OUR world leader? It is disgusting. Hell, if my son made that comment both my ex and I would knock him into next week. That is not how we raised him. And yet, we have to explain to him that yes, this doofus is our leader.

So you begin to see my frustration.

But yeah, CB, in my view and my view only, that was chicken.



> Have to make this a conditional answer.
> On economic matters, yes.
> On social issues, about half & half
> On communication to the public, almost completely no.
> 
> BTW - How is that popcorn?


Just baffled by this. You seem like an intelligent person, but you still make these comments. Can you not see you are defending him, and can you not see you should NEVER have to do that with a leader? I can find faults with every President, but I should NEVER have to defend them from such basic questions.

He is a racist. He is a horrible leader. He is setting this country back decades and creating a social rift the likes of which havent been seen since the race riots of the 60s.

I mean no discourse towards you, but man, are you seeing these facts differently than I?

I do not think so. I think you are defending him.


----------



## Johnny b

Chawbacon said:


> .... edited for brevity....





> Let's see… The Iraqi government keeping the WMD's was a violation by Iraq. It is called refusing/failing to disarm.


And no WMD were found to exist as the Bush administration originally claimed.
That's been verified by the US government and admitted by GW Bush. I even provided evidence of that which you ignore.



> For those who have not read the article, here are a few Excerpts from the previously cited NYT article.
> 
> "It was August 2008 near Taji, Iraq. They had just exploded a stack of old Iraqi artillery shells buried beside a murky lake." Turned out to be chemical munitions and the explosion exposed more unexploded munitions.
> 
> "In all, American troops secretly reported finding roughly 5,000 chemical warheads, shells or aviation bombs, according to interviews with dozens of participants, Iraqi and American officials, and heavily redacted intelligence documents obtained under the Freedom of Information Act."
> 
> "…more than 2,400 nerve-agent rockets unearthed in 2006 at a former Republican Guard compound."
> 
> "The public, he said, was misled for a decade. "I love it when I hear, 'Oh there weren't any chemical weapons in Iraq,' " he said. "There were plenty."
> 
> "But nearly a decade of wartime experience showed that old Iraqi chemical munitions often remained dangerous when repurposed for local attacks in makeshift bombs, as insurgents did starting by 2004."


Indeed, and no WMD's existed in that list of excerpts that the Bush administration had been claiming or looking for..
Mostly junk from a past war wit Iraq, gone to waste. Much simply lost to time and forgotten till the US discovered it,
Where's the yellow cake? 
Where were the enrichment centrifuges?
Where were the ballistic missiles?
Where were the chem factories?
Where were the stock piles of Chem agents?
Where were the biologicals?
Where were th bio agent factories?
etc, etc, etc?
Couldn't be found.
And yet you weasel lost and defective weapons buried in the deserts, lost to antiquity as the Bush claims for war.

Well, Bush apologized.
And there are still no traces of those WMD that are in question.



> Enough said?


That there is no proof to WMDs existing as Bush claimed, not much else to say.



> This is from your vaunted CNN side of the house.
> http://edition.cnn.com/2003/WORLD/meast/04/14/sprj.irq.labs/
> "KARBALA, Iraq (CNN) -- U.S. troops have found 11 mobile laboratories buried south of Baghdad that are capable of biological and chemical uses, a U.S. general said Monday."


Seriously, did you read the whole article?
Confusing and contradictory within itself.


> Powell said the evidence included firsthand accounts from four sources -- among them, an Iraqi chemical engineer who supervised one of the facilities and an Iraqi civil engineer "in a position to know the details of the program."
> .....................
> U.N. weapons inspection chief Hans Blix said his inspectors never found evidence of such labs.
> ........................
> On March 7, Blix told the U.N. Security Council, "Several inspections have taken place at declared and undeclared sites in relation to mobile production facilities. Food-testing mobile laboratories and mobile workshops have been seen, as well as large containers with seed-processing equipment. No evidence of proscribed activities have so far been found."
> 
> ......................
> Last week, troops from the 101st Airborne found a stash of chemicals, which was investigated as possible nerve agents, but the material turned out to be pesticides, Freakly said. The United States will further examine the latest find, he said.


Interesting how your links never seem be exactly 'iron clad proof'   of anything.
First hand accounts?
That was embarrassing for Powell.

I remember a lot of reports out of Santorum in the same vein. Wait a short while and and the evidence became a phantom.

But you are only being dishonest with the forum and treating it as if we are ignorant of the facts.

Here the fake mobile lab story:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mobile_weapons_laboratory

Here's Powell's retraction:


> Powell retraction
> 
> I looked at the four [sources] that [the CIA] gave me for [the mobile bio-labs], and they stood behind them, ... Now it appears not to be the case that it was that solid. At the time I was preparing the presentation, it was presented to me as being solid.[21] April 3, 2004 I feel terrible ... [giving the speech] ... It's a blot. I'm the one who presented it on behalf of the United States to the world, and [it] will always be a part of my record. It was painful. It's painful now.


Jack, Jack, Jack.......you don't know 'Jack' 



> Nice try on redefining the issue. I never commented on the Bush administrations claims, or lack thereof, concerning WMD's. Feel free to go back and reread my original statement if you need clarification.


Now don't you feel foolish for posting that? 



> I am not going to dignify ridiculous questions with answers. Especially when the questions are front loaded with blatant and mischaracterized accusations. Go back and read the statement in context please.


I did. Still makes little sense. And apparently you can't explain.
Fine by me 



> I understand that the premise of your statement is designed to generate outrage.


You posted it, You own it. 



> The real question is how should the statement have been made when all of the facts may not have been known.


It would have been easier to admit you misspoke. But it appears you don't admit to anything 



> "The individuals who were there to peacefully protest the destruction of historic monuments are good people and the people that were there to peacefully protest against hate groups are good people."


The only issue is.....that's not what happened and the imagery from the beginning was not one of peaceful intent by either the alt-righ t(racists, neo Nazis, KKK and white supremecists) and the antifa( leftwing socialists)
It's rather obvious the intent on both sides included violence on each other.

But you are the one here in this form, going on about everything else other than explaining your statement"


> OK. On Charlottesville... Yeah... A terrible statement by Trump without adequate qualifiers.


What kind of a qualifier could Trump present that is adequate enough to rationalize racism, neo Nazis and and the KKK?
It's not that complicated of a question.
You wrote it. You own it. Please explain it.

Oh yeah, and about Powell and those mobile labs. Do you think that's really forgotten?


----------



## valis

curious to see that answer as well....


----------



## Wino

Cannot believe we're still arguing 14+ yo non-existent debunked WMD in Iraq nor that anyone still believes they existed at the time. As for WMD, fairly confident Stalin and Osama are dancing a jig (IF I believed in the hereafter) watching Cheetolini (a WMD unto himself) succeed where they failed. Like a slide down a never ending razor blade into a vat of alcohol. Potus suffers greatly from Dunning–Kruger effect amongst other short comings.


----------



## Johnny b

Morning Wino 

It's all about those 'alternative facts' we hear about since Trump fever infected the US.


----------



## Johnny b

This is what dictators do:

* Trump backs boycott of Harley Davidson in steel tariff dispute *

https://finance.yahoo.com/news/trum...-steel-tariff-dispute-150215038--finance.html



> The Wisconsin-based motorcycle manufacturer announced a plan earlier this year to move production of motorcycles for the European Union from the United States to its overseas facilities to avoid the tariffs imposed by the trading bloc in retaliation for Trump's duties on steel and aluminum imports.
> 
> In response, Trump has criticized Harley Davidson, calling for higher, targeted taxes and threatening to lure foreign producers to the United States to increase competition.


This is hardly the action of what is supposed to be an administration friendly to business.
The message from Trump, 'Obey me or I will destroy you'.

:down:


----------



## Chawbacon

valis said:


> But yeah, CB, in my view and my view only, that was chicken.


Hey Valis,

I understand and can appreciate your point of view here. Especially since it is an opinion that both Democrats and Republicans have expressed towards me over the years.

I defended Reagan, G. Bush and G.W. Bush in a similar manner when they were similarly accused of being racist, xenophobic, hating the environment, wanting children to starve, and wanting old people to die from lack of medicine. I also defended Clinton similarly when he was accused of being a sexual assaulter and rapist. I also defended Obama in a like manner when he was accused of not being experienced enough to be president, being an incompetent moron (I reserve that for G.W. Bush - as an overall evaluation of his presidency), not being a native born American, hating America, trying to destroy America, being a closet Muslim, etc... While there were accusations aplenty against all of these individuals, there was not enough proof to sway my personal opinion one way or another.

I truly try to look at most things in life with a conditional mindset; that is, until I receive enough concrete information to make an informed decision. Admittedly though, I have not looked deeply into the _Trump is a racist_ accusations, since I chalked the accusations up to the typical political rhetoric that accompanies any individual (regardless of political party) who is curently holding, or seeking, political office, or political influence. That being said, I will take some time to research this subject in depth and perhaps reach a different conclusion.

Ok... Enough of the mind of Jack.


----------



## valis

All I can ask of ANYONE is research thoroughy and make an intelligent call.


----------



## Chawbacon

Johnny-be-Good said:


> This is hardly the action of what is supposed to be an administration friendly to business.
> The message from Trump, 'Obey me or I will destroy you'.


Believe it or not Johnny, we agree on this one. The United States government should never pick and choose who the winners are in a free market economy.

Now, if this was a blanket policy towards any company that moves a headquarters to a foreign country (with which a trade dispute is currently ongoing) I might be able to understand; but, I doubt that I would reach a favorable opinion of that categorical type of decision.


----------



## Johnny b

Chawbacon said:


> Hey Valis,
> 
> I understand and can appreciate your point of view here. Especially since it is an opinion that both Democrats and Republicans have expressed towards me over the years.
> 
> I defended Reagan, G. Bush and G.W. Bush in a similar manner when they were similarly accused of being racist, xenophobic, hating the environment, wanting children to starve, and wanting old people to die from lack of medicine. I also defended Clinton similarly when he was accused of being a sexual assaulter and rapist. I also defended Obama in a like manner when he was accused of not being experienced enough to be president, being an incompetent moron (I reserve that for G.W. Bush - as an overall evaluation of his presidency), not being a native born American, hating America, trying to destroy America, being a closet Muslim, etc... While there were accusations aplenty against all of these individuals, there was not enough proof to sway my personal opinion one way or another.
> 
> I truly try to look at most things in life with a conditional mindset; that is, until I receive enough concrete information to make an informed decision. Admittedly though, I have not looked deeply into the _Trump is a racist_ accusations, since I chalked the accusations up to the typical political rhetoric that accompanies any individual (regardless of political party) who is curently holding, or seeking, political office, or political influence. That being said, I will take some time to research this subject in depth and perhaps reach a different conclusion.
> 
> Ok... Enough of the mind of Jack.


Nice words
But contradict your earlier efforts.


----------



## Johnny b

Chawbacon said:


> Believe it or not Johnny, we agree on this one. The United States government should never pick and choose who the winners are in a free market economy.
> 
> Now, if this was a blanket policy towards any company that moves a headquarters to a foreign country (with which a trade dispute is currently ongoing) I might be able to understand; but, I doubt that I would reach a favorable opinion of that categorical type of decision.


US Presidents should never be active in destroying legitimate businesses anywhere in the world, no matter their original point of origin.
Common sense dictates enticement with advantages is more productive than the reality of mutual destruction that trade wars bring.

Economic coercion under the threat of destruction is not the hallmark of a free and democratic society.
It's the mark of despots.


----------



## valis

pegged it with despots.


----------



## Johnny b

Between Trump's derogatory comments and constant lying and Omarosa's contradictions, I did nail it with paranoia becoming interesting theater 

https://www.cnn.com/2018/08/13/politics/omarosa-white-house-paranoia/index.html

*White House paranoia deepens after Omarosa tapes *

And absurdities again become footnotes in history LOL!



> The revelations surrounding Omarosa Manigault Newman's new memoir, and the ensuing fallout, are underscoring a level of dysfunction many now see as just part of life under President Donald Trump.
> 
> .....
> 
> Now, aides are wondering who else might be using a recording device to capture audio from private conversations. And they are girding for Manigault Newman to release more of her tapes, which she has teased at in a string of television interviews.
> ................
> 
> What is contained in the remainder of Manigault Newman's tapes is a mystery, at least for now. The recordings she has released so far are shocking only because they were created by a White House employee; the content is enlightening but not scandalous.
> .....





> Nevertheless, the tapes have only deepened a pre-existing sense of paranoia among Trump staffers, according to senior administration officials, fueling an underlying suspicion that everyone inside the West Wing is out for themselves.


With all the problems Trump should be addressing, paranoia shouldn't be on his list as a distraction.

Like a train wreck, it's hard to not focus on this.
But that's the legacy Trump is creating.


----------



## Wino

Never thought reality TV could get any worse than it's always been nor thought my government would ever be in it. Damn shame we ALL have to suffer for it and not just the faithful fawners.


----------



## Johnny b

I try to avoid editorial content, but I identify with this one and I think it's fairly balanced.

*Both political parties are rejecting capitalism *

https://finance.yahoo.com/news/political-parties-rejecting-capitalism-145632855.html



> Which would you prefer: Economic authoritarianism? Or domineering socialism?


Too much to copy and paste, but this sums up the last couple of decades.
Please read it if you care.


----------



## Chawbacon

Johnny-be-Good said:


> White House paranoia deepens after Omarosa tapes


Just an observation: I have watched the media beating the White House Paranoia drum since March of 2017. So, I am not sure if there is fact behind that headline, or if it is a narrative that the media wants to push. Shrug.

We shall have to wait and see if this scandal sticks to the wall.

Should be interesting to watch.


----------



## Johnny b

Chawbacon said:


> Just an observation: I have watched the media beating the White House Paranoia drum since March of 2017. So, I am not sure if there is fact behind that headline, or if it is a narrative that the media wants to push. Shrug.
> 
> We shall have to wait and see if this scandal sticks to the wall.
> 
> Should be interesting to watch.


<shrug>

If you're looking for someone of integrity in that sordid story, I suspect you won't find one.

But the paranoia has been pretty obvious......


----------



## valis

The problem is that Trump is the scandal. The bigger problem is that he was duly (more or less) elected by the public. Absolutely nothing will stick to the wall.

Well, maybe his ego when it doesnt get built.


----------



## Johnny b

valis said:


> The problem is that Trump is the scandal. The bigger problem is that he was duly (more or less) elected by the public. Absolutely nothing will stick to the wall.
> 
> Well, maybe his ego when it doesnt get built.


Agreed.

Trump has played this character long before his political ambitions.
There's really nothing new. He's the same guy now as when the once McCarthy and then mob lawyer Roy Cohn represented his real estate development schemes.

Seldom has anything stuck.


----------



## valis

After all, he who has the gold, makes the rules, correct?


----------



## Johnny b

valis said:


> After all, he who has the gold, makes the rules, correct?


Seems that way.


----------



## Johnny b

And now back to those destructive Trump tariffs.

* Clear evidence Trump's trade war is hitting U.S. farmers *

https://finance.yahoo.com/news/trumps-trade-war-starting-hurt-us-farmers-184608387.html



> Prices for agricultural exports fell 5.3% in July, the biggest drop since 2011. The price of soybeans fell 14.1%, accounting for most of the overall drop.


I live in Ohio. Corn and soybeans are the big crops here. Locally, farmers are already worried.



> Beginning July 6, China imposed 25% tariffs on a variety of American agricultural products, including soybeans, corn, poultry and pork. Tariffs are a tax that instantly raise the cost of the targeted product, so $100 of soybeans would cost $125 with China's 25% tariff. The tariffs have led some purchasers in China to cancel orders for U.S. agricultural products and seek cheaper commodities from other nations not subject to the new tariffs. Diminished demand pushes down prices and lowers farmers' incomes.
> 
> Trump, of course, has said that "trade wars are good, and easy to win." But nobody's winning, so far.





> Trump has an incentive to resolve his trade disputes by Election Day in November, since damage caused by tariffs could turn voters against Republicans when they head to the polls. But the Trump administration doesn't even appear to be negotiating with China, suggesting more pain is coming.


----------



## Johnny b

And as glorious as the stock market is by Trumptonian standards:

* The Dow just registered its longest stint in correction territory in nearly 60 years *


> The Dow marks its 131st straight session in correction territory
> 
> ......
> The Dow Jones Industrial Average notched a dubious distinction on Wednesday, as U.S. equity benchmarks fell firmly lower.
> 
> The blue-chip benchmark failed to move 10% above the closing low hit earlier in the year (something that appears increasingly unlikely in current trade), and has now spent the longest period in correction territory-131 trading sessions-since the 223 sessions in 1961, according to Dow Jones Market Data.


Today:



> An escalating fright about a recent plunge in the Turkish lira USDTRY, -0.4426% has rattled investors' nerves and helped to spark a selloff on Wall Street. The Dow closed down about 140 points, or 0.5%, the S&P 500 index SPX, -0.76% slumped by 0.8% at 2,818, while the Nasdaq Composite Index COMP, -1.23% shed 1.2% at about 7,774.


These 'little things' do add up and the guy leading us hasn't a clue about economics. Only the buffoonery he's gotten away with in the past with a mob lawyer (Roy Cohn) to guide him through legal loopholes.


----------



## Johnny b

It's hard to imagine a lawyer actually said this. But since it's Giuliani representing Trump, it's the only sound byte that can explain all of Trump's outrageous lies and Rudy's backing of them.
IMO, a lie is a lie no matter who is looking at it.

* Rudy Giuliani says Trump is 'honest' because facts are 'in the eye of the beholder' *

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news...t-trump-honest-facts-eye-beholder/1002853002/



> Rudy Giuliani made the comment while defending Trump's harsh words for former White House aide Omarosa Manigault Newman. Cuomo said other presidents faced criticism and adversity without resorting to insults.
> 
> "Maybe nobody has been as honest as him," Giuliani said.
> 
> "If fact-counting is anything, we've never had anybody with the level of mendacity that he has," Cuomo replied. "Not even close."
> 
> "It's in the eye of the beholder," said a chuckling Giuliani.
> 
> "No, facts are not in the eye of the beholder," Cuomo said, shaking his finger.
> 
> "Yes, they are," Giulini said. "Nowadays they are."


I suspect both Rudy and Donald are secretly laughing at anyone foolish enough to believe that.
And I suspect a lot of Trump followers accept Rudy's logic.


----------



## Johnny b

Don't say I don't give credit where credit is due.
There is however so little, it's lost among Trump's apparent collusion with Russia that put him in office.
So here is one:

* President Trump threatens to sue opioid makers, says crisis is 'warfare' *

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news...makers-could-face-federal-lawsuit/1008957002/



> WASHINGTON - President Donald Trump on Thursday threatened to sue drug makers that manufacture opioids, mimicking an approach embraced by several states wrestling with huge increases in overdose deaths.
> 
> Speaking during a Cabinet meeting, the president asked Attorney General Jeff Sessions to bring a lawsuit against companies marketing opioids and also tasked him with looking into drug trafficking from China and Mexico, which he accused of "sending their garbage and killing our people."


This I applaud. But it is his job to start with.


----------



## Chawbacon

valis said:


> All I can ask of ANYONE is research thoroughy and make an intelligent call.


Hey Valis.

So I invested some time looking into the Trump/racist allegations and I am not ready to pull the trigger and call him a racist.

Now, there are many more accusations of racism and other malign actions than what have been leveled at previous Presidents (regardless of party affiliation); however, accusations are not proof. Additionally, I have not seen where Trump has been found to be a card carrying member of a racist organization, where he has admitted to being a racist, or where he has been filmed participating in a racist meeting/gathering. BTW - If you have information to the contrary, I will gladly evaluate that information accordingly.

What I see is a 70 year old President who is a non-politician, is not _socially correct,_ is set in his ways, and simply speaks the way he speaks (quite often without thinking it through); because, he does not care about sympathizing/understanding the nuances of today's political climate. While these personal qualities are NOT positives to have in a President, I do not feel that they establish a threshold of being a racist.

If you wish to discuss some of the specific accusations, I will be glad to review and respond to those observations.

Take care Valis and thank you for being patient while waiting for my reply.


----------



## valis

man, if you did the research and cannot decide if he is a racist, misogynistic homophobe I cant help. Heck, my dad voted for him (and proudly so), and he is a decade older than Ttump. And he agrees he is a horrible person.

Im on mobile this weekend, but will find you some specific instances to send you on Monday.

Actually, probably not. JBG will probably beat me to it. 

He quite literally setting race relations back 70 years. And again, if you cannot see that, I cannot assist. 

'Grab them by the blank'. Do you dispute that this is not a good look for the leader of the US? Or is that a 'product of different times'? 

Again, hate is taught.


----------



## Chawbacon

I hear you Valis.

Please understand that I was only replying to the question of Trump being a racist. 

As for being misogynistic... I agree with you. 
As for being a homophobe... Not to my knowledge. I probably need to look into that also.

You are right that JBG will probably beat you too a response. 

Hey JBG a request/plea from me:  Please try not to post a list covering a variety of accusations. If you would please keep it to one or two examples per reply, it will keep this discussion much more orderly. I will be glad to reply in turn.

Thanks!


----------



## valis

what about this?

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news...etoric/?sw_bypass=true&utm_term=.a845bd6d6966

that work for you?


----------



## Johnny b

Hi Tim.

Can't spend much time on this right now.
The racism, the misogyny is self evident.

What you and I are experiencing is called a time waster.
Marginalize everything while demanding proof.

Trump has made the tweets, had his speeches video recorded, blustered from the Oval Office for all to hear.
Trump obviously uses race to create social tension and animosity while impressing the alt-right (neo nazis, KKK and white supremacists) and those of bias to follow his lead and support his own radicalism, even though he may not necessarily be a hater himself.

BUT, he has lost a racial discrimination suit in the past. And it was about the only one his mob lawyer, Roy Cohn, ever lost.

So, past history does show he is personally capable of racial discrimination, ie, racism.

Deny Trump is a misogynist ? Really ? Well, the worst of it is on tape for all to hear and it's been played even on TV.
He deprecates women openly in ugly terms. Even men 

Trump is what he is and always was.
Anyone denying that is simply not honest with themselves.


----------



## valis

Hope all is well my friend.


----------



## Chawbacon

The article is a bit far ranging and is mostly an accusatory; but, I will address the primary points.

As related to Haiti: I cannot find where the President admitted to using the specific phrase in question. Even so, describing primarily low skilled, low economic, and high crime countries with shall we say colorful language is quite detestable in my point of view, that does not make an individual a racist.

As related to Muslims: I personally see Trump as an individual that is against the Muslim religion, without understanding that NOT every Muslim supports Sharia Law and the subsequent associated violence. That would make him Muslimphobic on religion; but, not a racist. If Trump is Muslimphobic though, would not his so called _Muslim-ban_ have included all 49 Muslim majority countries and not just the selective seven that were named?

On _undocumented immigrants_: I have heard Trump on many, many, many occasions stipulate that he is referring to illegal aliens that enter the U.S. illegally and commit deliberate criminal acts. Additionally, the specific quote referenced in the article was Yes, Trump has been critical of the monetary resources required to support the estimated 20 million illegal (not sure if that estimate is correct) aliens in the U.S.; but, again, that does not make him a racist.

On black people kill more white people, etc... : Trump is completely wrong. White people are responsible for the majority of white murders. Although in intellectual fairness, I should point out that since the 1980's (per DOJ and FBI statistics), it is true that blacks (I think... 13 percent of the country) commit the majority of murders within the U.S.

On Taylor Michael Wilson: If you are going to condemn one terrorist, condemn them all!!!! But again, I see this a a religious bias, rather than a race bias.


----------



## Johnny b

valis said:


> Hope all is well my friend.


Thanks for asking 
All is well.
Had a friend over today I hadn't seen in years and had to reminisce. 

As to Jack's reluctance to accept Trump's character....I would expect it from past posts.

Any debate limited to inspection a point at a time, can often defend a bias. Until a defining moment occurs. And it becomes obvious.
For racism, it was that racial discrimination lawsuit that Trump lost.
This was a US Department of Justice lawsuit. Followed up by a second suit for non compliance of agreements in the first lawsuit.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Racial_views_of_Donald_Trump#Housing_discrimination_cases

And of course, there are his speeches where claims that Mexicans are rapists, murderers, and drug dealers.

A list of Trump's comments about race:
https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2018/01/15/opinion/leonhardt-trump-racist.html

Trump truly hasa spectrum of bias spread through out much of his adult life.

Misogynist?
Many moments of Trump's attitudes towards women.






or
A Brief History of Trump Insulting Women Who Call Him Out
https://www.thecut.com/2018/03/donald-trump-insulting-women-appearance-history.html

or
Donald Trump sexism tracker: Every offensive comment in one place
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/women/p...tracker-every-offensive-comment-in-one-place/

Trump is what he is and what he always has been. Actually very consistent in a very perverse manner.


----------



## valis

Johnny-be-Good said:


> Thanks for asking
> All is well.
> Had a friend over today I hadn't seen in years and had to reminisce.


hope tomorrow is kind. 



> Any debate limited to inspection a point at a time, can often defend a bias. Until a defining moment occurs. And it becomes obvious.


Wordy and the grammar sucks but very, very accurate. Just spot-on. That exact moment is usually when I start to grin. Trick is seeing it prior to your opponent.


----------



## Johnny b

valis said:


> ..................
> 
> Wordy and the grammar sucks .................. ................


Probably a left over from my operation


----------



## valis

Okay, that made me laugh. There is a joke in there somewhere that involves Kesey, but this is probably not the time or the place.


----------



## valis

@Chawbacon ; I am surprised that you can see Trump is wrong about blacks killing more whites and yet not think he is racist. That statement, which you qualify as 'completely wrong' and yet say he is not racist.

I simply cannot explain it any simpler than this. The answer is right freaking there. It is akin to a flat-earther saying 'we have people all around the globe'.


----------



## Chawbacon

On the discrimination law suit... Trump never admitted guilt. Neither did Trump loose lawsuit, rather, Trump settled out of court (potentially to avoid loosing this lawsuit). However, this did give me the greatest pause when evaluating the charge of racist. Racism is a very serious accusation and; as such, should require a high bar of proof. This case was why I stated that the jury was still out on his being a racist. 

On Trump insulting women who call him out... The accused and the accuser deserve to be believed until a court of law levels a verdict. As I stated previously, I agree with Valis on the misogynist accusations. We should also be able to agree that Bill and Hillary are misogynists too, when evaluating astonishingly similar insults towards female accusers. 

Never said he wasn't a sexist pal.


----------



## Johnny b

valis said:


> @Chawbacon ; I am surprised that you can see Trump is wrong about blacks killing more whites and yet not think he is racist. That statement, which you qualify as 'completely wrong' and yet say he is not racist.
> 
> I simply cannot explain it any simpler than this. The answer is right freaking there. It is akin to a flat-earther saying 'we have people all around the globe'.


Indeed.
Trump claimed:



> - Donald Trump on Sunday, November 22nd, 2015 in a tweet
> Pants on Fire!
> Trump's Pants on Fire tweet that blacks killed 81% of white homicide victims


https://www.politifact.com/truth-o-...mp/trump-tweet-blacks-white-homicide-victims/

Talk about trying to incite a race war. :down:
It's statements like this that draws support from the alt-right.


----------



## Chawbacon

valis said:


> I simply cannot explain it any simpler than this. The answer is right freaking there. It is akin to a flat-earther saying 'we have people all around the globe'.


Way too funny analogy Valis! 

I should elucidate though... I believe that Trump often speaks authoritatively while using only partial information, or without validating the information prior to opening his mouth. In the case of the blacks killing whites, yes he was completely wrong; but, I cannot determine if he was making a racist statement or falling prey to his lack of knowledge (AKA level of stupid). This would be similar to people falling prey to internet rumors, or believing everything that Fox News puts on the air.


----------



## valis

again; if you have to defend him....i mean, i got nothing. i believe you see it but are deluding yourself for some reason. probably a hatred of hillary. 

I mean, you KNOW Trump is a doofus but he is better than the alternative, so you defend his actions.

Just my nickels worth.


----------



## Chawbacon

"- Donald Trump on Sunday, November 22nd, 2015 in a tweet
Pants on Fire!
Trump's Pants on Fire tweet that blacks killed 81% of white homicide victims"

Just an observation... If you take out the word _white _from that statement, the aggregated percentage is probably close.


----------



## Johnny b

Chawbacon said:


> On the discrimination law suit... Trump never admitted guilt. Neither did Trump loose lawsuit, rather, Trump settled out of court (potentially to avoid loosing this lawsuit). However, this did give me the greatest pause when evaluating the charge of racist. Racism is a very serious accusation and; as such, should require a high bar of proof. This case was why I stated that the jury was still out on his being a racist.
> 
> On Trump insulting women who call him out... The accused and the accuser deserve to be believed until a court of law levels a verdict. As I stated previously, I agree with Valis on the misogynist accusations. We should also be able to agree that Bill and Hillary are misogynists too, when evaluating astonishingly similar insults towards female accusers.
> 
> Never said he wasn't a sexist pal.


See what I mean, Tim.
Denial of guilt is argued as a fact of innocence.
Bizarre logic.

And treating this forum as if it's more than a court of opinion is ridiculous.

And beating up on the Clintons has no relevance to Trump's lack of character, even if they are a pair of misogynists 

And then implying I'm his pal, what's up with that


----------



## Johnny b

Chawbacon said:


> "- Donald Trump on Sunday, November 22nd, 2015 in a tweet
> Pants on Fire!
> Trump's Pants on Fire tweet that blacks killed 81% of white homicide victims"
> 
> Just an observation... If you take out the word _white _from that statement, the aggregated percentage is probably close.


Maybe you ought to do some fact checking


----------



## valis

my observation? why the hell are we are we STILL ARGUING ABOUT RACE IN 2018.


Jesus that annoys me.

This is very rapidly looking like the race riots of 50 damn years ago and all I can think of is something about learning or doomed to repeat it.


----------



## Johnny b

valis said:


> again; if you have to defend him....i mean, i got nothing. i believe you see it but are deluding yourself for some reason. probably a hatred of hillary.
> 
> I mean, you KNOW Trump is a doofus but he is better than the alternative, so you defend his actions.
> 
> Just my nickels worth.


My 2 cents...... Jack is a defender of Trump because he agrees with Trump's agenda.
in addition, it is difficult to defend a guy with such close ties to Putin and Russia's oligarchs because of that agenda.
Thus an awkward balancing act between denial and acceptance.


----------



## Chawbacon

valis said:


> again; if you have to defend him....i mean, i got nothing. i believe you see it but are deluding yourself for some reason. probably a hatred of hillary.
> 
> I mean, you KNOW Trump is a doofus but he is better than the alternative, so you defend his actions.
> 
> Just my nickels worth.


Fair enough Valis.

Again though, I think the accusation of racist should have a very high bar to meet.

Let's look at it from a different perspective... Many liberals out there claim to hate white people; because; white people will always be guilty of being a racist due to institutionalized racism. Does that make these liberals racist themselves? What if they will not condemn the Black Panthers as being a hate organization? What if they settled a lawsuit where white people accused them of refusing employment, or not renting to them in a black neighborhood?

Trump may well be a racist, and his character is anything but favorable; but, in my opinion, branding anyone as a racist needs almost irrefutable proof.


----------



## Chawbacon

Johnny-be-Good said:


> My 2 cents...... Jack is a defender of Trump because he agrees with Trump's agenda.
> in addition, it is difficult to defend a guy with such close ties to Putin and Russia's oligarchs because of that agenda.
> Thus an awkward balancing act between denial and acceptance.


Had to edit... messed up the quote.

Nice how you regularly apply rule number 5 of Alinski's Rules for Radicals. 

But to be clear, I agree with Trump's agenda when it comes to economics and I generally agree on protecting our borders, having a strong and prepared military, and revamping our immigration system into something functional. There are fine points within those agenda items on which I disagree though.


----------



## Johnny b

Chawbacon said:


> .............irrefutable proof.


I've already addressed that.


----------



## valis

Johnny, that is faaar beyond my scope to answer. I dislike labels so much that I have no clue what a liberal is nor why they claim to hate black people. I also do not care.

People are people. Simple. My dad classifies me as a libertarian and I guess that is close. My ex wife, who spends WAAAAAY too much time worrying about this crap (seriously, she could easily have her own show) gave up on labelling me 20 years ago.

Trump is in it for his own and that is it.


----------



## valis

btw, +1 for Alinsky. -1 for him also being a doofus.


----------



## valis

Johnny-be-Good said:


> Thus an awkward balancing act between denial and acceptance.


Hence my statement. I can see no other logical reason to defend Trump.


----------



## Johnny b

Chawbacon said:


> Had to edit... messed up the quote.
> 
> Nice how you regularly apply rule number 5 of Alinski's Rules for Radicals.
> 
> .............................


I had to google that 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rules_for_Radicals



> 5 "Ridicule is man's most potent weapon."


LOL!

However, the premise of the 'book is


> Primer for Realistic Radicals is a 1971 book by community activist and writer Saul D. Alinsky about how to successfully run a movement for change.


And that is Trump's alt-right and Russian task. Change America.

Me, I want correction. 

Nice try, but as I posted much earlier, you really aren't proficient with the spin


----------



## Johnny b

valis said:


> Hence my statement. I can see no other logical reason to defend Trump.


Indeed.


----------



## valis

really? you hadnt read him?

beat generation 2.0. Sorta like windows ME. Didnt work so well.


----------



## valis

Chawbacon said:


> But to be clear, I agree with Trump's agenda when it comes to economics ..


just to clarify; you agree with the tariffs? You realise this is not going to end well? Car prices will skyrocket.

Again; you agree with his economic policy?


----------



## Chawbacon

Johnny-be-Good said:


> Maybe you ought to do some fact checking


Well, let's look at this as a math problem.

At that time (pulling on memory here): Around 50% of convicted murders were black males within the age range of 15 - 45.
11% - 13% of the population was black
9% at most were males

So acknowledging that 9% of the population has committed 52% of the actual homicides, means that you have about an 80% chance of being murdered by that specific demographic. Now that in no way equates to the actual homicide statistics; but, if you don't investigate the underlying data, a person ends up speaking an untruth.

Either way Trump was wrong on this one.


----------



## Chawbacon

valis said:


> just to clarify; you agree with the tariffs? You realise this is not going to end well? Car prices will skyrocket.
> 
> Again; you agree with his economic policy?


Yes. I agree with the Tariffs. I fully understand the potential for this to get very ugly, very fast; but, continuing the trade inequities at the rates of billions of dollars is economically unsustainable by the U.S. Which I believe is one of the reasons we have such an astronomic amount of National debt and National deficit spending.


----------



## Johnny b

valis said:


> Johnny, that is faaar beyond my scope to answer. I dislike labels so much that I have no clue what a liberal is nor why they claim to hate black people. I also do not care.
> 
> People are people. Simple. My dad classifies me as a libertarian and I guess that is close. My ex wife, who spends WAAAAAY too much time worrying about this crap (seriously, she could easily have her own show) gave up on labelling me 20 years ago.
> 
> Trump is in it for his own and that is it.


I have absolutely no idea where Jack picked up the comment or idea:


> Many liberals out there claim to hate white people; because; white people will always be guilty of being a racist due to institutionalized racism.


It sounds like prefetch.
A ready made response written as if to have significance for special occasions.
A bit propagandistic.

We've known each other for quite some time and I've always thought of you as a pragmatic centrist as I do myself.

Agree with that last comment.


----------



## Johnny b

Chawbacon said:


> Well, let's look at this as a math problem.
> 
> At that time (pulling on memory here): Around 50% of convicted murders were black males within the age range of 15 - 45.
> 11% - 13% of the population was black
> 9% at most were males
> 
> So acknowledging that 9% of the population has committed 52% of the actual homicides, means that you have about an 80% chance of being murdered by that specific demographic. Now that in no way equates to the actual homicide statistics; but, if you don't investigate the underlying data, a person ends up speaking an untruth.
> 
> Either way Trump was wrong on this one.


No, I meant pull up statistics from an acceptable source.
Not make them up


----------



## valis

i have no clue what a pragmatic centrist is. Nor does that bother me.

I have known you for 14 years and respect the hell out of you so I will say thanks. 

I agree with the propoganda statement BUT I still think it is a case of voting for the lesser evil.


----------



## Chawbacon

Johnny-be-Good said:


> I have absolutely no idea where Jack picked up the comment or idea:


"Many liberals out there claim to hate white people; because; white people will always be guilty of being a racist due to institutionalized racism."

Well, I just typed that term into the good ole search engine and it returned over 25 million hits.


----------



## Johnny b

valis said:


> really? you hadnt read him?
> 
> beat generation 2.0. Sorta like windows ME. Didnt work so well.


Never heard of him till now.

Took another look at his rules.
Looked like he cribbed a bit from The Art of War.


----------



## valis

just out of curiousity, CB, were you aware that blacks had white slaves, back in the day? Humans are jerks; people are different. 

Hate is bad. And I dont understand it. Life is so cool, being a parent is freaking awesome, why the hell would you hate a person unless they did you harm?

Neil Tyson...case in point. Also Michio Kaku. Both non-white. Both men I trust.

Trump is racist and just breeds hate.


----------



## Johnny b

Chawbacon said:


> "Many liberals out there claim to hate white people; because; white people will always be guilty of being a racist due to institutionalized racism."
> 
> Well, I just typed that term into the good ole search engine and it returned over 25 million hits.


Proving an issue by the number of hits LOL!
I got no hits with the quotes and
I only got 101,000 with out the quotes.

Try it again.

I'll post a screen shot if you want.


----------



## valis

Johnny-be-Good said:


> Never heard of him till now.
> 
> Took another look at his rules.
> Looked like he cribbed a bit from The Art of War.


now that you mention it, yes. I always looked at him as a Ginsberg fanboy and I never cared for Ginsberg.


----------



## Johnny b

Here it is anyway


----------



## valis

i cant paste from mobile but i got 500k with that exact quote. which is depressing enough.


----------



## Johnny b

What search engine did you use?


----------



## valis

me? FF on android.


----------



## Johnny b

Search engine.

I'm using Google and browser is FF


----------



## valis

https://www.google.com/search?ie=UTF-8&client=ms-android-sprint-us-revc&source=android-browser&q="Many+liberals+out+there+claim+to+hate+white+people%3B+because%3B+white+people+will+always+be+guilty+of+being+a+racist+due+to+institutionalized+racism."


----------



## valis

nope didnt work.


----------



## valis

again, IMHO, it is not Trump that is the issue. It is the society that elected him that is my problem.


----------



## Johnny b

I'm going to turn in for the night,

See you tomorrow


----------



## valis

ditto. asta all and be well.


----------



## Chawbacon

The term I searched for was "institutionalized racism". My apologies for not clarifying that in the post.


----------



## Chawbacon

Ok. My numbers from memory were a little off, not much though. 

Homicide stats for 2014:

Pulled from: https://www.ojjdp.gov/ojstatbb/ezashr/asp/off_selection.asp

By Race:
Committed by Whites: 4,358 = 42.9%
Committed by Blacks: 5,450 = 53.7%
Committed by All Others: 339 = 3.3%
Total = 10,147

Between the ages of 12 - 49
Committed by white Males: 3,733 = 41.7%
Committed by Black Males: 4,912 = 54.9%
Committed by Other Males: 287 = 3.2%

The closest census stats I could find are for 2010:

Pulled from: http://www.censusscope.org/us/chart_race.html

Total Black population: 11.52 %

I could not easily find a race, gender, and age breakdown; but we can say that my earlier estimate of 9% Black male (total U.S. population) between the adjusted age of 12 - 49 at the end of 2014 is more than generous for this evaluation; otherwise, the results are a bit more bleak.

Analysis: 9% of the entire U.S. population committed 55% of the homicides in 2014. *IF* you look at only the numbers, anyone murdered in 2014 would have had around an 80% plus chance of being murdered by a black person; however, the actual race-on- race crime stats do not match up with that analysis. This is what I mean by not researching and throwing out numbers, or statements, without prior critical analysis (like Trump is known to do). Trump may be book smart, economic smart, security smart; but, when it comes to _speaking without knowing_, he is the biggest…. well, I am sure that the filters will not let me type in that description.


----------



## Johnny b

Chawbacon said:


> The term I searched for was "institutionalized racism". My apologies for not clarifying that in the post.


What, you thought we wouldn't double check your silly claim? 
And do you think I haven't compared your associations?



> Many liberals out there claim to hate white people;


and then a because statement


> white people will always be guilty of being a racist due to institutionalized racism.


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Institutional_racism


> Institutional racism is a form of racism expressed in the practice of social and political institutions. Institutional racism is also racism by individuals or informal social groups,[1] governed by behavioral norms that support racist thinking and foment active racism.


example:



> "When white terrorists bomb a black church and kill five black children, that is an act of individual racism, widely deplored by most segments of the society. But when in that same city - Birmingham, Alabama - five hundred black babies die each year because of the lack of power, food, shelter and medical facilities, and thousands more are destroyed and maimed physically, emotionally and intellectually because of conditions of poverty and discrimination in the black community, that is a function of institutional racism.


Institutional racism is an issue of mass defacto determination, not individual acts of racial hatered as you projected.
The result of the sum of lesser elements resulting in apparent racism.

The 'institution' that causes the effect is the guilt bearer and the reality of that is the individual within that 'institutional scenario' is often too obtuse to realize cumulative cause and effect.

And that's apparent in the following example:


> When a black family moves into a home in a white neighborhood and is stoned, burned or routed out, they are victims of an overt act of individual racism which most people will condemn. But it is institutional racism that keeps black people locked in dilapidated slum tenements, subject to the daily prey of exploitative slumlords, merchants, loan sharks and discriminatory real estate agents. The society either pretends it does not know of this latter situation, or is in fact incapable of doing anything meaningful about it.


As usual, you've misapplied meanings to create a distortion.



> Many liberals out there claim to hate white people;


'_Many liberals hate racism and those that embrace racism_' would make more sense, imo.
Could say the same for many Conservatives, too.
Trumpsters, not so much 

What you ignore, is that Trump has brought institutionalized racism back into our society with a vengeance with his favoritism with the alt-right ( neo Nazis, KKK and white supremacists ).
It's become acceptable.


----------



## Johnny b

Chawbacon said:


> Ok. My numbers from memory were a little off, not much though.
> 
> Homicide stats for 2014:
> 
> edited for brevity


Thank you 

Now consider the numbers you posted concerning homicide by race.
Specifically the 'Committed by All Others: 339 = 3.3%'
Hispanics are not 'Blacks' and of the 'All Others', Hispanics would be but a portion of that 3.3%.

Your argument and your source just denied another Trump claim about Mexicans.


----------



## Johnny b

Chawbacon said:


> ..............
> 
> So acknowledging that 9% of the population has committed 52% of the actual homicides, means that you have about an 80% chance of being murdered by that specific demographic. Now that in no way equates to the actual homicide statistics; but, if you don't investigate the underlying data, a person ends up speaking an untruth.
> 
> .........................


 
Again with the spin this time for fear factor.

Demographics, what are they one might ask.
Simple search, first hit out of About 537,000,000 (  )



> relating to the structure of populations.
> a particular sector of a population.


Your claim


> means that you have about an 80% chance of being murdered by that specific demographic


the demographic being


> 9% of the population has committed 52% of the actual homicides


But, your second statement isn't a demographic. Really. It's a statistic relating to populations living in a demographic.
It's rather obvious that with Blacks, with smaller populations living more frequently in concentrated 'demographics', non Black people would not be experiencing that same frequency of homicides by Blacks.
They'd be experiencing the the rate associated with their own demographic.

Think.
Seriously. 
This is an example of 'institutionalized racism'.

Now you appear to be using fear mongering in your spins.
Sad.


----------



## Johnny b

Chawbacon said:


> Yes. I agree with the Tariffs. I fully understand the potential for this to get very ugly, very fast; but, continuing the trade inequities at the rates of billions of dollars is economically unsustainable by the U.S. Which I believe is one of the reasons we have such an astronomic amount of National debt and National deficit spending.


Yep, simply ignore the corruption within the banking and securities scandal of 2008 that devastated economies around the world and in the US resulting in the 'Great Recession'..
Or the hellacious costs from ongoing unrest in the Middle East ( ISIS ) derived from a bogus war based on non existing WMD.
Add in a social loss of morality and ethics.
Consider the current work ethics of a population that wants to live like Kings on a paupers income, abusing credit and blaming their station in life on designated targets.

Conservatives like to blame unions of the past, and there are issues there.
But there has also been corruption in board rooms and management on large scales.

And now tariffs are rationalized by using 'National Security' arguments against our allies.

It's an issue of absolutes and trade agreements.
There are times when a tariff can be beneficial in protecting a sector of business.
Harley Davidson experienced this back in the days of Reagan.
The Japanese mc industry was dumping excess production on the US as a means to hurt HD.
Reagan pushed for a tariff on Japanese mc's that made HD price competitive.
And it worked, with out a trade war.
HD flurished.

Today, all HD sees from Trump are threats. Cooperate or else.

Today, Trump uses tariffs as a trade weapon, breaking trade agreements, penalizing both export nations along with the US consumer, plus threatening any and all Nations that resist with more tariffs......with the exception apparently of Russia.

So, I call BS on your position


----------



## Johnny b

And there is also the vindictive aspect to Trump's tariffs.

*This week in Trumponomics: Economic warfare gets personal *

https://finance.yahoo.com/news/week-trumponomics-economic-warfare-gets-personal-185936589.html

Too much to copy and paste.
The gist of the article is: Turkey has economic problems and Trump made them worse by imposing unrealistically harsh tariffs over a political issue.


----------



## valis

this....a thousand times this. We have a leader who is wholeheartedly willing to start a war over a personal slight. 

As does NK.

Again...this person has the keys to launch nuclear weapons. 

Also again; he was elected. This society is truly screwed.


----------



## Chawbacon

Johnny-be-Good said:


> Institutional racism is an issue of mass defacto determination, not individual acts of racial hatered as you projected.
> The result of the sum of lesser elements resulting in apparent racism.
> 
> The 'institution' that causes the effect is the guilt bearer and the reality of that is the individual within that 'institutional scenario' is often too obtuse to realize cumulative cause and effect.


Unfortunately, you have misunderstood my meaning here and I may have not been clear enough in my comment. My point is that no individual is a racist based solely upon their skin tone.


Johnny-be-Good said:


> What you ignore, is that Trump has brought institutionalized racism back into our society with a vengeance with his favoritism with the alt-right ( neo Nazis, KKK and white supremacists ).
> It's become acceptable.


Too bad that the unemployment numbers for minorities in the U.S. do not agree with your analysis, eh? 


Johnny-be-Good said:


> Thank you
> 
> Now consider the numbers you posted concerning homicide by race.
> Specifically the 'Committed by All Others: 339 = 3.3%'
> Hispanics are not 'Blacks' and of the 'All Others', Hispanics would be but a portion of that 3.3%.
> 
> Your argument and your source just denied another Trump claim about Mexicans.


I understand your argument of outrage here; but, I think that you are mixing apples and oranges. I agree that Trump conflates the actual illegal alien crimes being committed for political gain; however, there is a significant legal difference between illegal aliens that are allowed to stay in, or renter into, the U.S. after having committed violent crimes vs. U.S. citizens of Hispanic descent that commit violent acts. It is the responsibility of the U.S. to properly adjudicate (through the U.S. Legal system) violent crimes that are committed by U.S. citizens. The contention with illegal alien crime, is that the crime should have never happened to start with; because, the individual should not have been in the country when the crime was committed. Thus, the concept is that controlling the border and obtaining a better handle on legal immigration will prevent unnecessary deaths of U.S. citizens.


Johnny-be-Good said:


> But, your second statement isn't a demographic. Really. It's a statistic relating to populations living in a demographic.
> It's rather obvious that with Blacks, with smaller populations living more frequently in concentrated 'demographics', non Black people would not be experiencing that same frequency of homicides by Blacks.
> They'd be experiencing the the rate associated with their own demographic.
> 
> Think.
> Seriously.
> This is an example of 'institutionalized racism'.
> 
> Now you appear to be using fear mongering in your spins.
> Sad.


Sigh... Ok... I guess you do not understand the whole statement about "the actual race-on- race crime stats do not match up with that analysis. This is what I mean by not researching and throwing out numbers, or statements, without prior critical analysis (like Trump is known to do)." So, I shall clarify... This means that data was interpreted incorrectly to create a flawed analysis.  


Johnny-be-Good said:


> Yep, simply ignore the corruption within the banking and securities scandal of 2008 that devastated economies around the world and in the US resulting in the 'Great Recession'..
> Or the hellacious costs from ongoing unrest in the Middle East ( ISIS ) derived from a bogus war based on non existing WMD.
> Add in a social loss of morality and ethics.
> Consider the current work ethics of a population that wants to live like Kings on a paupers income, abusing credit and blaming their station in life on designated targets.


Please justify your accusation of my ignoring past corruption, etc... I have never made such claims and besides for the personal accusations that you have stated, I agree with the points provided. Additionally, I have never stated that I like tariffs, or a trade war; however, at this stage in history, I do believe that tariffs are the correct vehicle needed to correct the trade imbalances.


----------



## Johnny b

Chawbacon said:


> Unfortunately, you have misunderstood my meaning here and I may have not been clear enough in my comment. My point is that no individual is a racist based solely upon their skin tone.
> 
> .


Obviously. You initially stated some bizarre liberal/whites hating themselves comment associated with a term you obviously either didn't understand or unintentionally misused, ' institutionalized racism '.
I hope you've been able to understand the concept after I've explained it. 



Johnny-be-Good said:


> ...........
> 
> What you ignore, is that Trump has brought institutionalized racism back into our society with a vengeance with his favoritism with the alt-right ( neo Nazis, KKK and white supremacists ).
> It's become acceptable.


To which you replied:


> Too bad that the unemployment numbers for minorities in the U.S. do not agree with your analysis, eh


Perhaps you are having a mental breakdown? 
I just explained what institutionalized racism is and you seem to have a total disconnect with Trumps association with the alt-right. You remember, those race hating groups, like the KKK, the Neo Nazi movement and the various white supremacist groups?
They are the centers of and for creating, get this, institutionalized racism.
Or is this above you?





> I understand your argument of outrage here; but, I think that you are mixing apples and oranges.


And now begins a tirade of denial. 



> I agree that Trump conflates the actual illegal alien crimes being committed for political gain; however, there is a significant legal difference between illegal aliens that are allowed to stay in, or renter into, the U.S. after having committed violent crimes vs. U.S. citizens of Hispanic descent that commit violent acts.


But, but, but......you provided the statistics that go against your argument. 
It's all about the 'math' and you did provide percentages and hard numbers that are incredibly difficult to back pedal from.



> It is the responsibility of the U.S. to properly adjudicate (through the U.S. Legal system) violent crimes that are committed by U.S. citizens. The contention with illegal alien crime, is that the crime should have never happened to start with


To make that statement is to infer that crimes committed by legal citizens have a right to be committed.
NO CRIMES have a right to be committed by anyone. Legal citizen or other wise.
All CRIMES should never happen.

Is that 'common sense' enough for you? 

Seriously, imo, you ought to be suing that college that offered that logic course, for your money back.



> Thus, the concept is that controlling the border and obtaining a better handle on legal immigration will prevent unnecessary deaths of U.S. citizens.


It's about absolutes and how far you argue to achieve reasonable control.
To create a closed society is to give up the freedoms to a dictatorial government.
The 'Iron Curtain' of the USSR and the Berlin wall of East Berlin are examples.
Trump is essentially engineering a white's only society. The tells are his dislikes of Hispanics and people of color and his favoring of the alt-right. And of course that impenetrable wall he wants to build. Even where it's not needed. The argued Muslim restrictions seemed a bit extreme, and the courts agreed.



> I guess you do not understand the whole statement about "the actual race-on- race crime stats do not match up with that analysis.


Nah 
You simply screwed up when you posted a fallacious representation 


> So acknowledging that 9% of the population has committed 52% of the actual homicides, means that you have about an 80% chance of being murdered by that specific demographic.


It's a fallacy of equivalence. Not all demographic areas are equal. Inner city black neighborhoods do not equate to white suburban neighborhoods as far as demographics.
It's also an improper the way you used the term 'demographic ' as I pointed out earlier.
Sorry, just a 'common sense' explanation just wouldn't cut it  

For the ratios to apply, the participants must exist with in the demographic of a specific area that has that 80% chance..
The 80% chance could not apply to me because I don't live in a demographic area where an 80% chance exists.
I explained that earlier, Must have gone over your head.

Thus, all you offered was fear mongering.



> Please justify your accusation of my ignoring past corruption,


The fact that you did ignore those factors that relate to our economy.
How more obvious could it be?


----------



## Johnny b

Chawbacon said:


> ....................
> 
> Please justify your accusation of my ignoring past corruption, etc... I have never made such claims and besides for the personal accusations that you have stated, I agree with the points provided. Additionally, I have never stated that I like tariffs, or a trade war; however, at this stage in history, I do believe that tariffs are the correct vehicle needed to correct the trade imbalances.


After considering your challenge over night, I think you need a more comprehensive reply than


> The fact that you did ignore those factors that relate to our economy.
> How more obvious could it be?


even though it's concise and to the point.

It's about addressing issues as a big picture, or using snapshots as absolutes.
The issue is Trump's application of tariffs in a capitalistic economic system.

You seem to be here to defend the Trump agenda.
Personally, nothing wrong with that.
But I've felt you've been using misleading arguments to do that, thus my responses that address them, and are likely to continue to address what are seen as fallacies.

What do you think a capitalistic economic system is all about as a generality?
At it's core, imo, it's about value. Creating value. Increasing value. Respecting value. Using and respecting value as a means of commerce. Respecting the efforts of creating and increasing value by rewarding those that create it and those that add value, That's both business and labor.

Tariffs can be a means to balance transactions so that efforts do not go unrewarded when one party to a transaction tries to unjustly reward themselves.

But that's not the situation with Trump's 'tariffs'. He's taken actions in response to lesser economic concerns, for unjust rewards on differing economic activity. Even to the point of using National Security as rationale and politicizing the concept.
What is he doing? (rhetorical) He's destroying 'value' as a means of negotiating trade balances in strategic areas of commerce where the US in non competitive.

Rather than work to achieve the ability to compete, you, and Trump, are arguing to negotiate that trading partners compete disadvantaged against the US.

Let's look at your claim again.



> I fully understand the potential for this to get very ugly, very fast; but, continuing the trade inequities at the rates of billions of dollars is economically unsustainable by the U.S. Which I believe is one of the reasons we have such an astronomic amount of National debt and National deficit spending.


What is missing?
Logic for one.
Trade deficits are not issues of National debt or National deficit spending.
You posted pure BS.
National debt and National deficit spending are issues of government spending while trade inequities are issues of business and consumer spending.
Pure and simple.
And yet, here you are, regurgitating some of the worst logic right out of the Trump camp. Recognizable propaganda.



> trade inequities at the rates of billions of dollars is economically unsustainable by the U.S


Not as long as value is created at a greater rate than lost in trading. All nations face this dilemma.

My post that seems to upset you:



Johnny-be-Good said:


> Yep, simply ignore
> 
> edited for brevity
> 
> So, I call BS on your position


It's about destroyed value.
And this is likely the biggest cause of both our current economic woes within and our trading issues with other nations, the way and volume of value has been destroyed.

You choose Trump's method for correction that's based on destroying more value.

Perhaps the concept of 'The art of the deal' is neither friendly to capitalistic economies nor democracies.



Johnny-be-Good said:


> .................
> 
> The fact that you did ignore those factors that relate to our economy.
> How more obvious could it be?


----------



## Johnny b

Let the spinning commence


----------



## Johnny b

Back to reality 

This is an opinion piece, but it is backed up with data showing Trump's budgets are leading the US economy into a critically poor condition.

*Trump trillion-dollar-plus deficits are putting America on a path to fiscal ruin *

https://www.usatoday.com/story/opin...r-plus-deficits-fiscal-ruin-column/986236002/



> It happened when the Treasury, the official keeper of Washington's financial results, issued its monthly statement for the first 10 months of fiscal 2018 about federal revenue, spending and, therefore, the budget deficit.
> 
> Treasury showed what no president ever wants to admit: The deficit is spiking. The federal government's red ink this year is already 21 percent above what it was in 2017, and there are few prospects that the bottom line will improve anytime soon.


See attachment below:


----------



## Chawbacon

Johnny-be-Good said:


> Let the spinning commence


The only thing spinning is my head from all of the circular logic and misdirection statements employed above. That being said Johnny, I see you to be a person of absolutes, where there can be no shades of gray for a wide range of issues on which you have reached a pointed determination. Unfortunately, life is rarely black and white in those terms; but, it does help me to somewhat understand your perspective.


Johnny-be-Good said:


> Obviously. You initially stated some bizarre liberal/whites hating themselves comment associated with a term you obviously either didn't understand or unintentionally misused, ' institutionalized racism '.


Nope. I stand completely behind my statement. I just cannot bring myself to hate any group of people based upon the conditions of their birth. Although, I do have an internal distrust of the Russian government and Russian businesses; but, that is based more on Russian laws and the opportunity for compromise of U.S. computer systems.


Johnny-be-Good said:


> I just explained what institutionalized racism is and you seem to have a total disconnect with Trumps association with the alt-right. You remember, those race hating groups, like the KKK, the Neo Nazi movement and the various white supremacist groups?
> They are the centers of and for creating, get this, institutionalized racism.
> Or is this above you?


Again, Trump on personal level is of very questionable character; but, where is your irrefutable proof of racism? I am not talking about this-or-that accusation which could be actual smoke, or it could be a smoke machine. Show me where Trump is a member of a racist organization, or has attended a racist meeting, or even on tape deliberately denigrating an entire group of people solely based on the color of someone's skin. As it is, I acknowledge that Trump may be racist; but, so far, I have not seen Trump use the Office of the Presidency to intentionally punish an entire race based upon color.


Johnny-be-Good said:


> But, but, but......you provided the statistics that go against your argument.
> It's all about the 'math' and you did provide percentages and hard numbers that are incredibly difficult to back pedal from.





Johnny-be-Good said:


> Nah
> You simply screwed up when you posted a fallacious representation





Johnny-be-Good said:


> It's a fallacy of equivalence. Not all demographic areas are equal. Inner city black neighborhoods do not equate to white suburban neighborhoods as far as demographics.
> It's also an improper the way you used the term 'demographic ' as I pointed out earlier.
> Sorry, just a 'common sense' explanation just wouldn't cut it
> 
> For the ratios to apply, the participants must exist with in the demographic of a specific area that has that 80% chance..
> The 80% chance could not apply to me because I don't live in a demographic area where an 80% chance exists.
> I explained that earlier, Must have gone over your head.
> 
> Thus, all you offered was fear mongering.


Sigh... Again with the misguided accusations.

I stand by the numbers and percentages that I provided. I also acknowledged that the the conclusions reached by others was done so without reflecting/understanding the underlying data, making the conclusion incorrect, unless you are looking solely at the math. I do not understand why you are arguing nuance on this issue when the discussion was about math (and my math was correct); but, if it makes you happy, I agree with the nuance argument, which was my point to start with. 


Johnny-be-Good said:


> To make that statement is to infer that crimes committed by legal citizens have a right to be committed.
> NO CRIMES have a right to be committed by anyone. Legal citizen or other wise.
> All CRIMES should never happen.
> 
> Is that 'common sense' enough for you?
> 
> Seriously, imo, you ought to be suing that college that offered that logic course, for your money back.


And more unfounded accusations....

If you really think that I am inferring that "crimes committed by legal citizens have a right to be committed" there is some professional help that you may want to consider. 


Johnny-be-Good said:


> The fact that you did ignore those factors that relate to our economy.
> How more obvious could it be?


Again... an accusation based upon nothing. The fact that I did not address disparate issues reflecting on the economy in my original post, in no way means that those facts were ignored by myself. If you will please look at the statement in question, it is clearly indicated that the trade disparity was _ONE_ of the pressures affecting our National Debt and National Deficit (BTW - I blame both Democrats and Republicans equally for our economic difficulties on these fronts).


Johnny-be-Good said:


> It's about absolutes and how far you argue to achieve reasonable control.
> To create a closed society is to give up the freedoms to a dictatorial government.
> The 'Iron Curtain' of the USSR and the Berlin wall of East Berlin are examples.
> Trump is essentially engineering a white's only society. The tells are his dislikes of Hispanics and people of color and his favoring of the alt-right. And of course that impenetrable wall he wants to build. Even where it's not needed. The argued Muslim restrictions seemed a bit extreme, and the courts agreed.


Had to go back and grab this as the response bounced around a bit. 

I think you are misunderstanding a basic difference behind the _Iron Curtain_ and the _East Berlin Wall_ and the wall proposed for the U.S southern border. Yes, the walls built by the USSR were designed to keep out invading armies; however, they were also implemented to keep the populace from departing, or escaping, the USSR. Similar to how North Korea uses security at it's borders to keep a populace from escaping, should individuals decide to depart. No one is attempting to stop U.S. citizens from leaving the U.S. (valid passport of course). Should the U.S. begin a policy to only allow authorized government officials to depart the country, then I would have a completely different take on the issue.


----------



## Johnny b

Chawbacon said:


> The only thing spinning is my head from all of the circular logic and misdirection statements employed above. That being said Johnny, I see you to be a person of absolutes, where there can be no shades of gray for a wide range of issues on which you have reached a pointed determination. Unfortunately, life is rarely black and white in those terms; but, it does help me to somewhat understand your perspective.


You're just upset 



> Nope. I stand completely behind my statement.


Of course you do. Have you ever done otherwise when shown your position was illogical or full of holes?



> I just cannot bring myself to hate any group of people based upon the conditions of their birth.


I have no idea how that relates to your statement about 'liberals claiming white people hate themselves'.



> Although, I do have an internal distrust of the Russian government and Russian businesses; but, that is based more on Russian laws and the opportunity for compromise of U.S. computer systems.


Why do you waffle and weasel on known facts about Russian involvement in our elections?
All of the US Intel services have agreed on Russian involvement. Involvement on government levels.



> but, where is your irrefutable proof of racism?


And the denial continues 
I posted irrefutable proof Trump is a racist.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Racial_views_of_Donald_Trump#Housing_discrimination_cases

As I mentioned to another member, you appear to be a time waster. 
You challenge what's already been proven as if it's never been discussed and expect a repeat discussion. Despicable.



> Show me where Trump is a member of a racist organization, or has attended a racist meeting, or even on tape deliberately denigrating an entire group of people solely based on the color of someone's skin.


And you just completely ignore the actions of Trump and make up a demand avoiding an issue that does define the man as a racist. Racial discrimination.

Or do you exclude racial discrimination being a determining trait of a racist?

WOW!



> I stand by the numbers and percentages that I provided.


I do too 



> I also acknowledged that the the conclusions reached by others was done so without reflecting/understanding the underlying data, making the conclusion incorrect, unless you are looking solely at the math.


Translation: _ ' I wish I'd never posted that ' _


I've noticed you do a lot of searches with out reading the full content and implications of the articles.
'Googleing for a headline'.
You learned this in an intro logic course?



> I do not understand why you are arguing nuance on this issue when the discussion was about math (and my math was correct)


The math was good, I agree. But it contained a mathematical aspect that does not help with your support of Trump. I pointed that out and you act like it's a nuance. It's obviously more 



> If you really think that I am inferring that "crimes committed by legal citizens have a right to be committed" there is some professional help that you may want to consider.


It's your post, not mine.
You presented an example of institutionalized racism, people of color seeking sanctuary you deemed the same as murders, thieves, and actors of violence. You argue to remove them all ( as an absolute ) to prevent potential crime with out any legal charges other than illegal entry.
Think.
Your logic completely removes the rights illegals do have under our legal system.
But you hold no such restriction concerning legal citizens as ridiculous as that may seem.
You are giving legal citizens a defacto right to commit crimes with out mass deportation ..
Sounds incredibly stupid to me, too.
But that's your post, not mine.
You just engineered a blatant example of institutionalized racism and on a massive scale.

And to top it off, the percentages of homicides you posted show Hispanics have a lower rate of committing homicide than whites or Blacks.

And you think I need professional help? 
You don't even understand what you post. LOL!



> The fact that I did not address disparate issues reflecting on the economy in my original post, in no way means that those facts were ignored by myself.


You are only denying what YOU posted.
You tried to connect Federal debt and deficits to trade imbalances.
It doesn't. Again, Federal debt and deficits relate to the spending practices of the Federal Government. 
Trade issues are of a commercial nature.
And I called BS on you 



> I think you are misunderstanding a basic difference behind the Iron Curtain and the East Berlin Wall and the wall proposed for the U.S southern border. Yes, the walls built by the USSR were designed to keep out invading armies; however, they were also implemented to keep the populace from departing, or escaping, the USSR.


True.
Of course there were differences. 
They were built in a totalitarian environment.
The effects were extreme.

We have a current President that thinks a President for Life might be a good thing for the US. And he has stated that publicly in front of Chinese officials.

A wall to keep 'others' out is is simply half way to the totalitarian model.
And using institutionalized racism to achieve that halfway point, is an example of a society with grave social problems.



> Should the U.S. begin a policy to only allow authorized government officials to depart the country, then I would have a completely different take on the issue.


I don't doubt that one bit.

Late edit: BTW, the 'Iron Curtain' wasn't a physical wall, thus the reason I used the high commas to denote a consideration  It wasn't a physical wall. But it was a notational boundary like a 'line in the sand'.


----------



## Johnny b

New Russian hacking attempts directed at Republicans that don't agree with Trump's pro Russian position.

* New Russian hacking attempts targeted conservative groups, Microsoft says *

https://www.usatoday.com/story/tech...m-elections-conservative-politics/1049556002/



> Microsoft has uncovered new Russian hacking attempts targeting U.S. political groups ahead of the midterm elections, the technology giant reported Tuesday.
> 
> This attempt, tied to a hacking group affiliated with the Russian government, spoofed a pair of conservative think-tanks, the Hudson Institute and the International Republican Institute .
> 
> ....................
> 
> The New York Times reported that the latest hacking attempts underscore the Russian intelligence agency's goal to disrupt any political challenges to Moscow and President Vladimir Putin.
> 
> ..................
> 
> The hacking attempts mirror similar Russian attacks ahead of the 2016 election, which U.S. intelligence officials have said were focused on helping to elect Republican Donald Trump to the presidency by hurting his Democratic opponent, Hillary Clinton.


It will be interesting to see what Trump's comments are about these new findings other than mere 'ifs'.


----------



## Johnny b

WOW!
Even Fox News isn't impressed with Trump's latest claims.

* Russia Investigation
Trump floats possibility of taking over Mueller probe: 'I can go in and I could do whatever, I could run it if I want' *

http://www.foxnews.com/politics/201...d-could-do-whatever-could-run-it-if-want.html



> President Trump asserted on Monday that he would be "totally allowed" to take over Special Counsel Robert Mueller's probe if he wanted to, in another thinly veiled broadside against an investigation he has repeatedly derided as a partisan "witch hunt."
> 
> "I can go in, and I could do whatever - I could run it if I want," Trump told Reuters. "But I decided to stay out. I'm totally allowed to be involved if I wanted to be. So far, I haven't chosen to be involved. I'll stay out."


From the linked Reuters article:

*Exclusive: Trump worries that Mueller interview could be a 'perjury trap' *

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-...ew-could-be-a-perjury-trap-idUSKCN1L526P?il=0



> WASHINGTON (Reuters) - U.S. President Donald Trump said on Monday he was worried that any statements under oath he provides to Special Counsel Robert Mueller could be used to bring perjury charges against him as part of the probe into Russia's electoral interference.
> 
> In an interview with Reuters, Trump echoed the concerns of his top lawyer in the probe, Rudy Giuliani, who has warned that any sit-down with Mueller could be a "perjury trap."


Looks like Trump is sweating bullets


----------



## Wino

Would be a perjury trap ONLY if the Orange Puke lies - and that is 100% sure he will do as he can't open his mouth without lying. In any case, Trump will testify before mueller about three days after submitting his tax returns for inspection - which means NEVER!!! will he go before Mueller or a grand jury.


----------



## Johnny b

Cohen pleads guilty to campaign finance fraud stemming from hush money payments to porn actress Stormy Daniels and ex-Playboy model Karen McDougal.

Now Trump has a problem.

* Ex-Trump lawyer Michael Cohen pleads guilty to federal fraud charges *

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news...trump-lawyer-feds-reach-plea-deal/1053562002/



> Donald Trump's former personal lawyer and "fixer" Michael Cohen, has pleaded guilty to charges including campaign finance fraud stemming from hush money payments to porn actress Stormy Daniels and ex-Playboy model Karen McDougal.
> 
> The 51-year-old Cohen entered the plea in federal court in New York on Tuesday. The other charges involve bank fraud and income tax evasion.
> 
> As part of his plea agreement, Cohen agreed not to challenge any sentence from 46 to 63 months.


Avenatti to Giuliani:


> "Buckle Up Buttercup," he wrote. "You and your client completely misplayed this.."




LOL!


----------



## Johnny b

Stupid Trump comment of the day.

* President Trump attacks ex-lawyer: 'I would strongly suggest that you don't retain services of Michael Cohen' *

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news...onald-trump-attacks-michael-cohen/1060194002/

Not only will Cohen be serving time in jail, he's obviously going to be disbarred.



> Meanwhile, the attorney for Cohen said the president's former lawyer is ready to provide testimony linking Trump to another case: Russian efforts to influence the 2016 election via hacked Democratic emails.


----------



## Wino

The day is young - I expect he will out stupid this comment before midnight!


----------



## Littlefield

> Money paid to people who come out of the woodwork and shake down people under threat of revealing bad sexual stories are not legitimate campaign expenditures. They are personal expenditures. That is true for both candidates we like and candidates we don't. Just imagine if candidates used campaign funds instead of their own money to pay folks like Stormy Daniels to keep quiet about affairs; they would get indicted for misuse of campaign funds for personal purposes and for tax evasion.
> 
> There appear to be two payments involved in this unusual plea - Cohen pleaded guilty to a campaign finance violation for having "coordinated" the American Media Inc. payment to Karen McDougal for her story, not for actually making the payment. So he is pleading guilty over a corporate contribution he did not make.
> 
> Think about this for a minute: Suppose ABC had paid Stormy Daniels for her story in coordination with Michael Avenatti or maybe even the Democratic National Committee's law firm on the eve of the election; by this reasoning, if the purpose of this money paid, just before the election, would be to hurt Trump and help Clinton win, this payment would be a corporate political contribution. If using it not to get Trump would be a corporate contribution, then using it to get Trump also has to be a corporate contribution. That's why neither are corporate contributions and this is a bogus approach to federal election law. (Note that none of the donors in the 2012 John Edwards case faced any legal issues and the Federal Election Commission [FEC] ruled their payments were not campaign contributions that had to be reported - facts that prosecutors tried to suppress at trial.)
> 
> Now, when it comes to Stormy Daniels, Cohen made a payment a few days before the election that Trump attorney Rudy Giuliani says was reimbursed. First, given that this payment was on Oct. 27, it would never have been reported before the election campaign and so, for all intents and purposes, was immaterial as it relates to any effect on the campaign. What's clear in this plea deal is that, in exchange for overall leniency on his massive tax evasion, Cohen is pleading guilty to these other charges as an attempt to give prosecutors what they want - a Trump connection.
> 
> The usual procedures here would be for the FEC to investigate complaints and sort through these murky laws to determine if these kinds of payments are personal in nature or more properly classified as campaign expenditures. And, on the Daniels payment that was made and reimbursed by Trump, it is again a question of whether that was made for personal reasons (especially since they have been trying since 2011 to obtain agreement). Just because it would be helpful to the campaign does not convert it to a campaign expenditure. Think of a candidate with bad teeth who had dental work done to look better for the campaign; his campaign still could not pay for it because it's a personal expenditure.


Interesting read by Mark Penn and Alan Dershowitz said same.



> Paying for nondisclosure agreements for perfectly legal activities is not a crime, not a campaign contribution as commonly understood or ruled upon by the Federal Election Commission. Squeezing guilty pleas out of vulnerable witnesses does nothing to change those facts.
> 
> http://thehill.com/opinion/white-ho...a-deal-is-prosecutors-attempt-to-set-up-trump


Now if Cohen really has evidence Trump actually worked with Russians hacking then that is trouble. Davis going on TV begging money for Cohen still cracks me up. LOL


----------



## Johnny b

Penn and Dershowitz can only offer their opinions and I don't see any criteria for Penn being an expert on law.
And I don't see a link to Dershowitz's opinion.



> Now, when it comes to Stormy Daniels, Cohen made a payment a few days before the election that Trump attorney Rudy Giuliani says was reimbursed. First, given that this payment was on Oct. 27, it would never have been reported before the election campaign


Doing IF scenarios. LOL!

Buying off Daniels about 2 weeks before an election confirms the fear of exposure in the press and those crazy fundamentalists are just so volatile on those scenarios 
Trump effectively bought silence in the press 
But only for a short time.

And it's likely going to take the courts to decide the legalities of the payments, not Dershowitz or a pollster.

I'm more interested in what Cohen has to say about Trump and his connections to the Russians


----------



## Littlefield

It will not go to court now. LOL
Penn said , on the Daniels payment that was made and reimbursed by Trump, it is again a question of whether that was made for personal reasons (especially since they have been trying since 2011 to obtain agreement).
Look at the MSNBC girl get all flustered. LOL
https://www.realclearpolitics.com/v...y_hush_money_committed_no_election_crime.html


----------



## Johnny b

Littlefield said:


> It will not go to court now. LOL
> Penn said , on the Daniels payment that was made and reimbursed by Trump, it is again a question of whether that was made for personal reasons (especially since they have been trying since 2011 to obtain agreement).
> Look at the MSNBC girl get all flustered. LOL
> https://www.realclearpolitics.com/v...y_hush_money_committed_no_election_crime.html


I personally don't know. And I strongly suspect neither do you.
But I am aware there are pro and con links all over the net.
Google is your friend


----------



## Littlefield

Mueller has already said he will not indict a sitting President now and will follow Justice Dept. guidelines. LOL


----------



## Johnny b

Littlefield said:


> It will not go to court now. LOL
> Penn said , on the Daniels payment that was made and reimbursed by Trump, it is again a question of whether that was made for personal reasons (especially since they have been trying since 2011 to obtain agreement).
> Look at the MSNBC girl get all flustered. LOL
> https://www.realclearpolitics.com/v...y_hush_money_committed_no_election_crime.html




LOL this:



> MSNBC HOST: Can I ask about a couple things, Alan? .. You said last night, 'All Cohen has to do is say the president directed me to do it. That's the kind of embellishment people put on a story when they want to avoid dying in prison.' Are you suggesting Cohen lied under oath?
> 
> ALAN DERSHOWITZ: Well, we don't know.
> ........
> 
> I have no idea whether Cohen is telling the truth or not, but the interesting thing is, if Cohen is telling the truth it's a catch-22 for the prosecution.
> 
> .................
> 
> It's convoluted. The law is convoluted.
> 
> ................
> 
> DERSHOWITZ: Candidates violate election laws all the time, go back to any campaign's campaign violations.
> 
> MSNBC HOST: But does that make it okay?
> 
> DERSHOWITZ: No, it doesn't, but let be very clear.
> 
> ( No, let's be clear LOL! )
> .......
> 
> only crime is if a third-party, namely, Cohen, on his own, contributed to a campaign, that would be a campaign contribution. So it is a catch-22 for the prosecution. iI they claim that the president authorized him to do it or directed him to do it, it is not a crime for anybody. If Cohen did it on his own, then it is a crime for Cohen but not the president.
> 
> This is going to be a very difficult case for the prosecution to make, precisely because the laws on election are so convoluted.


About the only claim that doesn't appear to be sophistry or convoluted is the last half of that final comment.

And it will likely take the courts to make a determination.


----------



## Johnny b

Littlefield said:


> Mueller has already said he will not indict a sitting President now and will follow Justice Dept. guidelines. LOL


So?

You really think that makes Trump innocent?

You think Trump can easily be reelected if traitorous collusion becomes evident?

I think you are dreaming.


----------



## Littlefield

It will not be up to the courts but Trump better pray the Dems do not get the House. Now you are speculating and still sound confused about treason. LOL


----------



## Johnny b

Littlefield?

Do you think Trump is safe from impeachment if Mueller's investigation shows Trump committed traitorous collusion with Russians?

If Mueller does show traitorous collusion with the Russians and Congress doesn't react, what does that tell you of the integrity of Congress?


----------



## Johnny b

Johnny-be-Good said:


> Littlefield
> ..........
> If Mueller does show traitorous collusion with the Russians and Congress doesn't react, what does that tell you of the integrity of Congress?


That they are all Trump supporters LOL!


----------



## Johnny b

Littlefield said:


> It will not be up to the courts but Trump better pray the Dems do not get the House. Now you are speculating and still sound confused about treason. LOL


I think you have issues with reading comprehension LOL!


----------



## valis

He wont be impeached. Should, but I doubt it will happen. Sadly, our best hope is not re-electing him.

Do we really have to question the integrity of Congress? They are politicians. That should be answer enough.

And the fact that I say that is sooo depressing.


----------



## Johnny b

Littlefield said:


> It will not be up to the courts but Trump better pray the Dems do not get the House. Now you are speculating and still sound confused about treason. LOL


Impeachment is up to Congress. 
Impeachment defines the charges.
Any trial concerning guilt/innocence that follows the charges, goes to the courts.

Yes, Trump had better pray the House is as corrupt as he himself is


----------



## Johnny b

valis said:


> He wont be impeached. Should, but I doubt it will happen. Sadly, our best hope is not re-electing him.
> 
> Do we really have to question the integrity of Congress? They are politicians. That should be answer enough.
> 
> And the fact that I say that is sooo depressing.


I think the issue of collusion with an enemy nation won't be overlooked by most of the House because the general public won't see it favorably if collusion is evident.
It simply goes too far with the imagery of the selling out of our freedoms.
Holdouts will obviously be staunch Trump supporters.
 The weak will fold to maintain their base 



> Sadly, our best hope is not re-electing him.


Perhaps.

I think the timeliness of Mueller's investigation and what he finds might short cut that.


----------



## valis

I hope so.....but I am not holding my breath.


----------



## Johnny b

I've been noticing that Trump supporters evade a lot of what should be easy questions.

So I'll repeat it again to all those that defend Trump.



Johnny-be-Good said:


> ...............
> 
> Do you think Trump is safe from impeachment if Mueller's investigation shows Trump committed traitorous collusion with Russians?
> 
> If Mueller does show traitorous collusion with the Russians and Congress doesn't react, what does that tell you of the integrity of Congress?


If Mueller can't provide evidence of an illegal Trump connection to Russia( an enemy btw) by the time the investigation is over, to me, the issue is settled. There is no impeachable offense.

But, to the Trumpsters, if the findings are positive, why shouldn't Trump face an impeachment?


----------



## Wino

As valis stated, not re-electing in 2020 and burying republican candidates under a blue wave in November 2018 to block as much as possible his destruction of the nation would be by far the best way to go. Chances of impeachment are slim to none regardless of what Mueller uncovers and no matter who controls congress IMO. His rabid followers will NEVER accept he did anything wrong, no matter how egregious the proof may show he is a traitor or treasonous - it will always remain a "witch hunt" in their eyes.

To a certain extent, I feel some sympathy for the fetid fervor fans - it must really suck to defend such an obvious corrupt, crime ridden first family, led by an incompetent and illiterate whiner who never accepts responsibility for bad things he causes, and takes credit for those he had little to do with to the good.

I'm wondering how Melania is handling the on going crop of extra-marital affairs now proven to be true. Sad.


----------



## Johnny b

Wino said:


> As valis stated, not re-electing in 2020 and burying republican candidates under a blue wave in November 2018 to block as much as possible his destruction of the nation would be by far the best way to go. Chances of impeachment are slim to none regardless of what Mueller uncovers and no matter who controls congress IMO. His rabid followers will NEVER accept he did anything wrong, no matter how egregious the proof may show he is a traitor or treasonous - it will always remain a "witch hunt" in their eyes.
> 
> To a certain extent, I feel some sympathy for the fetid fervor fans - it must really suck to defend such an obvious corrupt, crime ridden first family, led by an incompetent and illiterate whiner who never accepts responsibility for bad things he causes, and takes credit for those he had little to do with to the good.
> 
> I'm wondering how Melania is handling the on going crop of extra-marital affairs now proven to be true. Sad.


All good points.
There is a political reality and it's often at odds with accepted ethics and morality.

But some questions go unanswered and they pivot on how honest individuals are with themselves. And it's interesting to watch them sweat out the contradictions 

As far as Melania and her marriage. The ultra wealthy don't necessarily share the same ethics and morality of the rest of society. None of Trump's past wives have publicly complained. 
Their meal tickets in divorce probably overwhelm their grief of betrayal.
Could be the same for wife # 3. It's not like she walked into her situation with a blindfold.

Common knowledge:

https://www.businessinsider.com/trump-melania-stormy-daniels-affairs-marriages-timeline-2018-3


----------



## Johnny b

Unhinged?

Trump's diversions are becoming a lot more desperate.

* Trump attempts to shift focus to white South African farmers before posting furious 1.10am tweet, as pressure grows on president *

https://finance.yahoo.com/news/trump-attempts-shift-focus-white-103051380.html



> "I have asked Secretary of State [Mike Pompeo] to closely study the South Africa land and farm seizures and expropriations and the large scale killing of farmers," he wrote on Twitter.
> 
> Alongside the announcement, he posted a quote from the channel alleging the South African government was "now seizing land from white farmers". Mr Trump tagged Mr Carlson in his tweet.
> 
> .....
> 
> All major political parties in South Africa have said they agree reform is needed in a country where 72% of the land is in the hands of white people, according to the Land Audit Report, despite just 8% of the population being white.
> 
> Earlier this week, South African president Cyril Remaphosa suggested the country would become unstable if the state failed to speed up land reform.
> 
> "If we do not address it‚ it is going to cause instability in our country. If there is any risk‚ it will be around the land issue‚" Mr Ramaphosa told an audience at an agribusiness conference.


And then there is this:

https://www.nytimes.com/2018/08/23/world/africa/trump-south-africa-white-farmers.html



> Are there widespread killings of farmers?
> 
> There is no evidence of this.
> 
> The number of killings of farmers is at a 20-year low, 47 in 2017-18, according to research published in July by AgriSA, a farmers' organization in South Africa. That is down from 66 the year before. The figures were consistent with a steady decline of violence since a peak in 1998, when 153 were killed.


Our President is a liar.
And this is not the first time.


----------



## Johnny b

* Trump: 'If I ever got impeached, I think the market would crash' *

https://finance.yahoo.com/news/trump-ever-got-impeached-think-market-crash-120503051.html



> "If I ever got impeached, I think the market would crash," Trump told Fox News. "I think everybody would be very poor. Because without this thinking you would see, you would see numbers that you wouldn't believe in reverse."


Doubtful on it's own, but taken as a vindictive threat, it becomes more possible.
Classical case of fear mongering, imo.


----------



## Johnny b

> Donald Trump Sparks Outrage By Tweeting White Nationalist Talking Point


https://finance.yahoo.com/news/donald-trump-sparks-outrage-tweeting-075653628.html



> President Donald Trump faced more accusations of racism late Wednesday after he tweeted about white farmers in South Africa.


Shocking......


----------



## Johnny b

Time for a little dark humor 
Enjoy.

*If Trump shot Michael Cohen in broad daylight, here's what Republicans would say *
https://finance.yahoo.com/news/trump-shot-michael-cohen-broad-080038116.html

(disclaimer: this never happened  )



> Breaking news: in an eerie echo of Donald Trump's infamous campaign trail remark - "I could stand in the middle of Fifth Avenue and shoot somebody and I wouldn't lose voters" - many witnesses report, and CCTV footage obtained by the Times confirms, that early this morning the president drew a handgun on his former lawyer Michael Cohen and shot him dead on a street in midtown Manhattan.


The responses are hilarious 



> House speaker Paul Ryan:
> 
> "If these reports are true - I emphasize IF - then yes, I'm very concerned. I don't think the president should be killing people in broad daylight in front of Tiffany's. But I'm not a legal expert, I could be wrong."
> ...............
> 
> White House press secretary Sarah Sanders:
> 
> Associated Press: "Ms Sanders, did the president shoot his former lawyer in an effort to stop him from testifying against the president?"
> 
> Sarah Sanders: "No, he did not."
> 
> AP: "Are you saying that the shooting was not motivated by Mr Cohen's recent plea deal, or rather that the president did not shoot him?"
> 
> SHS: "You've got my answer, Jim. No, no, no."
> 
> AP: "Ms Sanders, I'm still not clear what -"
> 
> SHS: "The answer is no. No as in no. N. O. It's these kinds of questions that have turned the American people against the press."


And much more.

Of course, the Trump tweet is classic Trump:



> Tweet from @realDonaldTrump:
> 
> "Back from GREAT chat with members of NYPD--the finest! Brand new police station. Very NICE. They want a wall too. Was NEVER taken into custody. FAKE NEWS cooked up by Crooked Hillary and FAILING NYT and CONFLICTED Mueller! Keep our borders strong - JUST SAY NO to murdering and raping Mexicans."


----------



## Lanctus

Here is my take on it all. If Trump really is a victim as he so claims, and had no control of everything going on, he is incompetent and weak at best, and should be removed. If Trump is lying, really did commit treasonous acts with his cohorts, and is blustering to cover himself now, he is a criminal and should be removed. 

Either way, incompetent in his own house or a criminal, he should be removed from Office.


----------



## valis

as a COMPLETE aside, McCain has ceased treatment for his cancer, which generally means the end is nigh. 

Sucks that he will pass with the idiot who said he was only a war hero because he was captured.

I may not agree with McCain on some things but I respect the hell out of ANYONE who has served this country. Plus, IMO, he really strived for change.

I have zero respect for Trump.


----------



## Lanctus

Trump may think great about himself, but I take solace in the knowledge of how history will remember him. Nixon was a great strategist, but his fumbles and criminality are what come to the surface in remembrance. Just like the name Benedict Arnold is associated with traitor, the name of Trump will forever be associated with corruption, ineptitude, and the cancer of his presidency.


----------



## Johnny b

Here we go again.

While Trumpsters were joyous over Trump potentially winning the Nobel Peace Prize, reality intervened as usual.

* Trump nixes North Korea trip by Secretary of State one day after Pompeo announced it *

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news...ompeos-announced-north-korea-trip/1085748002/



> President Donald Trump on Friday nixed a planned trip to North Korea by Secretary of State Mike Pompeo, suggesting Kim Jong Un's regime had not made good on promises to relinquish its nuclear weapons arsenal.


Didn't anyone ask: 'What happens when two leaders no one trusts, negotiate'?
A lot of press and not much else


----------



## valis

Johnny-be-Good said:


> .... 'What happens when two leaders no one trusts, negotiate'?.....


Wasnt that the plot of The Godfather?


----------



## Lanctus

valis said:


> Wasnt that the plot of The Godfather?


Considering he's a wannabe mob boss, makes sense. Everyone lived happily in the end of Godfather. Oh wait....


----------



## valis

plus the whole horse thing....https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.wa...p-donald-trumps-lone-foray-into-horse-racing/


----------



## Johnny b

* Rudy Giuliani: Americans would 'revolt' if Trump impeached 'for political reasons' *

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news...giuliani-trump-impeachment-revolt/1083706002/



> Fresh from his declaration that "truth isn't truth," President Donald Trump's personal attorney, Rudy Giuliani, said Thursday that Americans would "revolt" if Trump was impeached "for political reasons."


Translation: '_ Those with the swastikas in the front ranks, white hoods to the rear _'


----------



## valis

you the funny thing? I have never seen that movie and yet it permeates the pop culture so significantly that I could make that horse reference. Shows how big a flick that was.


----------



## Wino

Johnny-be-Good said:


> * Trump: 'If I ever got impeached, I think the market would crash' *
> 
> https://finance.yahoo.com/news/trump-ever-got-impeached-think-market-crash-120503051.html
> 
> Doubtful on it's own, but taken as a vindictive threat, it becomes more possible.
> Classical case of fear mongering, imo.


I wouldn't mind taking a shot at that hypothesis - I'd jump back in the stock market in a heartbeat if he were impeached.


----------



## valis

Wino said:


> I wouldn't mind taking a shot at that hypothesis - I'd jump back in the stock market in a heartbeat if he were impeached.


Agreeance. That is a bet I would take, and outside of poker, I am not a betting man.


----------



## Johnny b

* Judge rules against Trump's attempt to weaken federal unions *

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news...rikes-down-three-executive-orders/1098451002/



> A federal judge struck down significant sections of three executive orders on government workers, dealing a blow to President Donald Trump's attempts to curtail the power of labor unions representing federal employees.
> 
> In an opinion Saturday, U.S. District Judge Ketanji Brown Jackson said Trump exceeded his authority because Congress has established collective bargaining rights for federal employees through the Federal Service Labor-Management Relations Act.


For too long, Presidents have been legislating from the Oval Office.


----------



## Chawbacon

Johnny-be-Good said:


> * Judge rules against Trump's attempt to weaken federal unions *
> 
> https://www.usatoday.com/story/news...rikes-down-three-executive-orders/1098451002/
> 
> For too long, Presidents have been legislating from the Oval Office.


I had to look a little bit deeper on this one, and my viewpoints are mixed. But I agree with Johnny on the base point that "For too long, Presidents have been legislating from the Oval Office," for the good, or the bad, depending on each individual's viewpoint

I am not sure about the Judge's ruling concerning the ability of one Federal Agency to view performance rating from another Federal Agency during the hiring process. These Federal Agencies are almost like separate companies with how they are essentially stand alone silos; however, these same Federal Agencies could also be considered as separate business units, or separate companies, that fall under one parent corporation. Lots of grey area there.

I agree with the Judge's ruling on the issue of reducing the time span for all existing CBA's to one year. This portion of the Executive Order will probably not stand up in court. Once the CBA's expire, or are up for renegotiation, then Trump would be able to properly move forward with this agenda through the negotiation process.

I disagree with the Judge's ruling concerning the implementation of a merit based pay system, speeding up the process to terminate under-performing workers, and limiting the amount of time workers can spend performing union activities while on-the-clock. No need to expand on why here, as it is pretty easy for anyone to figure out.


----------



## Johnny b

Censorship?

*Trump aide says president weighing regulations on Google search engine that he considers 'rigged' *

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news...lations-google-search-engine-aide/1108261002/



> White House economic adviser Larry Kudlow said Tuesday that President Donald Trump is considering new regulations on Google's search engine to address his concern that it turns up too many stories that are critical of him.
> 
> Pressed by reporters at the White House on Tuesday about a tweet the president wrote criticizing Google's search engine as "rigged," the director of Trump's National Economic Council said the administration is "taking a look" at federal regulations for the company.


If Trump quit Twitter, imo, at least 90% of the negative news stories on him would probably go away


----------



## Chawbacon

Johnny-be-Good said:


> Censorship?
> 
> *Trump aide says president weighing regulations on Google search engine that he considers 'rigged' *
> 
> https://www.usatoday.com/story/news...lations-google-search-engine-aide/1108261002/
> 
> If Trump quit Twitter, imo, at least 90% of the negative news stories on him would probably go away


Naaaaah! The negative news _might_ drop 10%.  The television media coverage is already hovering around a similar disparity, so, I would be surprised to see a significant difference; but, who really knows.

My analysis: Trump is dead wrong on this issue.

Twitter and Google are privately owned companies and can censor/promote whatever content the company desires. Similar to our so-called television News channels (left and right), which are also privately owned companies. Now, my understanding is that free speech extends to the public square; but, not to private business. In order for Trump to have a legitimate case here, Congress would have to pass laws defining the Internet (or at least Twitter and Google) as a symbolic part of the public square. This is a slippery slope though, and reeks of how the Democrats have sought to pass laws requiring equal air time for liberal ideology specifically on talk radio stations. I have no problem with any individual pointing out a perceived inequality (whether I agree, or disagree with their position); but, I will always remain staunchly against any voiced idea that forces private companies to equalize ideology.


----------



## Johnny b

Chawbacon said:


> ........
> 
> Twitter and Google are privately owned companies and can censor/promote whatever content the company desires. Similar to our so-called television News channels (left and right), which are also privately owned companies. Now, my understanding is that free speech extends to the public square; but, not to private business. In order for Trump to have a legitimate case here, Congress would have to pass laws defining the Internet (or at least Twitter and Google) as a symbolic part of the public square. ............


Agree on this ^^^.

But I do think Trump's comments without thinking first, gets him more negative attention than positive. 
He wouldn't have such a long list of contradictions repeated endlessly


----------



## Chawbacon

*IF* this ends up being true, the Muller probe could have a big credibility problem. But, we will have to wait and see what corroborating evidence (if any) Mr. Ohr has to offer.

https://www.wsj.com/articles/what-bruce-ohr-told-congress-1535668660

"...I'm told Mr. Ohr made clear that these conversations variously included all the heavyweights in the FBI investigation-former lead investigator Peter Strzok, former FBI senior lawyer Lisa Page, and former Deputy Director Andrew McCabe. So senior people were very aware of his role, information and conflict."

"As for Mr. Ohr's interaction with the FBI, he told congressional investigators this week that while initially he reached out to the FBI, the bureau also later came looking for information about Mr. Steele. That outreach happened after the FBI had terminated Mr. Steele as a source in October 2016 for violating bureau rules about talking to media. So even after having been warned of Mr. Steele's motivations, even after having fired him for violating the rules, the FBI continued to seek his information-using Mr. Ohr as a back channel. This surely violates the FBI manual governing interaction with confidential human sources.

That Mr. Ohr came shopping the Steele info should have on its own set off FBI alarm bells. Mr. Steele was already in direct contact with the FBI by early July. Why would Mr. Steele then go to work on a Justice Department source, and refunnel the same allegations to the bureau?"


----------



## Johnny b

Chawbacon said:


> *IF* this ends up being true, the Muller probe could have a big credibility problem. But, we will have to wait and see what corroborating evidence (if any) Mr. Ohr has to offer.
> 
> https://www.wsj.com/articles/what-bruce-ohr-told-congress-1535668660
> ......................................


Unfortunately, that link has a paywall and the complete article isn't readily available with out a subscription.

The Washington Post had this relevant article and I don't see anything already known that has changed or anything new found out.

* Trump suggests Bruce Ohr, Justice official linked to Russia dossier, should be fired *

https://www.washingtonpost.com/worl...e8-b1da-ff7faa680710_story.html?noredirect=on

What we do know for certain is that there was a Russian influence in the 2016 election, in Trump's favor and Mueller's investigation has been turning up participation by US citizens, Russian troll farms and Russian spies working within the NRA to funnel campaign funds into Trump's election efforts..

As far as Ohr's duty to supply corroborating evidence, that's not his responsibility.
It's the responsibility of the investigation to discover relevant facts.
And that appears to worry both Trump and radical elements of the GOP.


----------



## Johnny b

In another one of his tantrums, Trump again threatens to investigate himself (  )
( Pretty sure how that would work out  )

* Trump threatens to 'get involved' in law enforcement investigations into his own campaign *

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news...d-fbi-probe-mueller-investigation/1152113002/



> President Donald Trump threatened to "get involved" in law enforcement decisions at the Justice Department Thursday, telling supporters at an Indiana campaign rally that the investigations into his campaign were "disgraceful."


Oh...the problems of the rich and infamous.....


----------



## Johnny b

Trump claims things he said in taped interview didn't happen, it's all fake news. And offers no proof. (  )

* President Trump accuses NBC of 'fudging' interview with him *
https://www.usatoday.com/story/news...lester-holt-interview-james-comey/1142245002/

* Trump accuses NBC News' Lester Holt of 'fudging' tape of interview about Comey firing, as legal pressures mount *
https://www.cnbc.com/2018/08/30/trump-accuses-nbc-host-of-fudging-tape-about-comey-firing.html

( video of Holt interviewing Trump at above link)

(too much to copy and paste)


----------



## Johnny b

Trump claims glorious economy and freezes federal worker pay.
Why you may ask?

* Trump freezes federal worker pay, citing 'serious economic conditions' *
https://www.usatoday.com/story/news...ral-workers-citing-budget-deficit/1145355002/



> WASHINGTON - President Donald Trump said he would freeze the pay of federal workers next year, saying the nation can't afford the 2.1% raises that would have gone into effect without presidential action.
> 
> In a notice to Congress Thursday, Trump cited "serious economic conditions" in cutting pay to civilian workers. "We must maintain efforts to put our nation on a fiscally sustainable course, and federal agency budgets cannot sustain such increases," Trump said.
> 
> ...........
> 
> But Trump's pay freeze comes even as he touts a booming economy. "The news from the Financial Markets is even better than anticipated," Trump tweeted just hours before announcing the pay freeze. "More good news is coming!"


More good news, eh?  !!!!.........


----------



## Lanctus

You see this one? https://www.yahoo.com/news/man-charged-threatening-kill-journalists-014403393.html The guy has been on SSI, while his party is actively trying to cut those benefits. A classic example of people voting against their own interests. Here's another example: https://www.washingtonpost.com/news...band-from-deportation/?utm_term=.8c6b84ff4ec6 Woman voted for the orange con, thinking they wouldn't take away her undocumented husband because he wasn't a criminal. "I understand when you're a criminal and you do bad things, you shouldn't be in the country," Helen Beristain told the CBS TV affiliate WSBT. "But when you're a good citizen and you support and you help and you pay taxes and you give jobs to people, you should be able to stay." This is what I mean when I've said that so many of these knee-jerk reacting people lack critical thinking.


----------



## Johnny b

Chawbacon said:


> *IF* this ends up being true, the Muller probe could have a big credibility problem. But, we will have to wait and see what corroborating evidence (if any) Mr. Ohr has to offer. ........................


An Associated Press article popped up in my local paper:

* AP sources: Lawyer was told Russia had 'Trump over a barrel' *

https://www.daytondailynews.com/new...had-trump-over-barrel/vmgsXB4WmxqZXG6yHu7R8H/

What stood out but not new, was:



> The FBI's investigation was already under way by the time it received Steele's dossier, and Ohr was not the original source of information from it.


Kinda makes your 'IF' irrelevant.


----------



## Lanctus

Kind of like when Trump kept saying Obama had wiretapped his hotel before the elections, without any kind of proof to back it up. Turns out his hotel WAS under surveillance by the govt, but lo and behold, it was a two year sting watching the Russian mafia and money-laundering operation right under Trump's nose. Literally three floors from Trump's suite. 30 people were indicted.
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/...on-us-money-laundering-alimzhan-a7642851.html


----------



## Johnny b

The truth is in the eye of the beholder 

( not )


----------



## Johnny b

This is what Trump doesn't want the public to know and it's so bad, even Fox News is reporting on it.

*NAFTA talks rocked by media leak of off-record Trump comments on Canada *

http://www.foxnews.com/politics/201...leak-off-record-trump-comments-on-canada.html



> But The Toronto Star reports that it obtained comments from an off-the-record portion of an Oval Office interview between Trump and Bloomberg News. In those remarks, Trump said he isn't making compromises with Prime Minister Justin Trudeau's government, but isn't going to say so publicly because "it's going to be so insulting they're not going to be able to make a deal."
> 
> "Here's the problem. If I say no, the answer's no. If I say no, then you're going to put that, and it's going to be so insulting they're not going to be able to make a deal ... I can't kill these people," he said of Trudeau's government.
> 
> In another remark he did not want published, Trump said the deal would be "totally on our terms" and reportedly suggested he had tried to spook the Canadians with the threat of auto tariffs.





> On the record, Trump told Bloomberg that a deal was "close."
> 
> "I think Canada's going to make a deal at some point. It may be by Friday, or it may be within a period of time. But ultimately they have no choice," he said.
> 
> But then, according to The Star he reportedly said, "Off the record: totally on our terms. Totally."
> 
> The comments have since made their way to Trudeau's government, causing problems for the talks.


That's from Fox News. Gotta wonder what other sources report.


----------



## Johnny b

Ford, a company already in financial difficulty, takes a further beating on Trump's trade war with China.

* The Ford Focus is dead in the US because of Trump's trade war *

https://www.theverge.com/2018/8/31/17805604/ford-focus-trump-china-tariff-mustang



> Ford just announced that it's abandoning plans to sell the Focus Active - which the company makes in China - in the United States because of tariffs imposed by the Trump administration. The car was supposed to be one of two models that Ford planned to sell in the US going forward as it shifts its lineup to be almost exclusively SUVs and trucks. Now, the only car Ford will sell in the US is the Mustang.
> 
> ...............
> 
> Most leading car companies operate on a global scale, and production plants are increasingly being placed in areas where costs can be kept low. GM - one of the only other major automakers that currently imports Chinese-built cars - has also warned that it might stop importing the Buick Envision SUV if the company is not granted an exemption to the tariff.
> 
> .............
> It's not just the wholesale import taxes on cars that are affecting automakers. The Trump administration has placed tariffs on commodities like steel and aluminum that are crucial to building cars. While automakers have been reticent to speak out against these moves, many have adjusted their outlooks and warned investors of potential negative effects. Trump's ongoing attempt to renegotiate the North American Free Trade Agreement has also thrown a heavy amount of uncertainty into the mix.


Trade wars obviously create more problems than they solve.


----------



## Lanctus

Johnny-be-Good said:


> Trade wars obviously create more problems than they solve.


Just like Trump.


----------



## Chawbacon

Johnny-be-Good said:


> NAFTA talks rocked by media leak of off-record Trump comments on Canada...


Yeah. You would think that Trump would know better _*BY NOW*_! Nothing is off-the-record when there is such a combative media (against the President) in the mix. It is sad that the responsible media outlet would break this long standing agreement to not publicize comments made off-the-record. Accordingly, I will not be surprised to see White House press credentials revoked over this incident; which, will make the whole situation even sadder.


----------



## Johnny b

Chawbacon said:


> Yeah. You would think that Trump would know better _*BY NOW*_! Nothing is off-the-record when there is such a combative media (against the President) in the mix. It is sad that the responsible media outlet would break this long standing agreement to not publicize comments made off-the-record. Accordingly, I will not be surprised to see White House press credentials revoked over this incident; which, will make the whole situation even sadder.


You do realize that you're sounding like sour grapes because an inconvenient truth has been exposed.
There is no such thing as an honorable long standing agreement with a liar. The only honorable action is to expose them.


----------



## Chawbacon

Johnny-be-Good said:


> You do realize that you're sounding like sour grapes because an inconvenient truth has been exposed.
> There is no such thing as an honorable long standing agreement with a liar. The only honorable action is to expose them.


Nah... Not sour grapes. Just amazed at Trump's lack of situational awareness (stupidity) at times and the damage that the leaking news agency has done to the negotiating process.

Then again, Trump could have orchestrated this occasion as a setup to further implicate most news agencies as untrustworthy, thereby, further implicating that the public should be distrustful of any negative reporting on Trump and forcing Canada to endure a longer trade war that Canada cannot hope to win.

_Respectable_ reporters have historically honored off-the-record requests and signed agreements (as was this case) and not produced a story or leaked the information to another news agency. This is true regardless of one's political views. There are some caveats though that typically deal with potentially illegal activities. Breaking the off-the-record trust is just plain wrong. It was wrong when that ABC reporter revealed that Obama called Kanye West a Jack-expletive and it is wrong in this instance also.

And it is disappointing to see that the pool reporters respect the off-the-record implication when Trump's statements were positive for the President accomplishments:

https://money.cnn.com/2017/07/13/media/white-house-pool-donald-trump-france/index.html


----------



## Johnny b

Still sounds like sour grapes 
Would you like some cheese with the whine LOL!

Your idol simply got outed because of his arrogance


----------



## valis

chawbacon, if I didnt know better, I'd say you were starting to see reason...


----------



## Chawbacon

valis said:


> chawbacon, if I didnt know better, I'd say you were starting to see reason...


From you Valis, I will take that as a compliment. 

I will always listen to new information and make a determination accordingly; but, that determination can be changed by new and verified information.


----------



## Johnny b

New information (  )

Poor Georgie. He was just misunderstood 
Is there such a thing as 'innocence' when conniving?
Must be an issue of 'truth in the eye of the beholder'? 

* George Papadopoulos: Trump 'nodded' at suggestion of Putin meeting *
https://www.usatoday.com/story/news...vestigation-trump-campaign-russia/1169753002/



> Lawyers for George Papadopoulos are seeking probation, saying the foreign policy adviser misled agents during a January 2017 interview not to harm an investigation but rather to "save his professional aspirations and preserve a perhaps misguided loyalty to his master."


uhmm.....errr...huh.
He lied to save his.....skin?

Probably a lot of that going around


----------



## Johnny b

Food for thought.
This is an opinion piece, but, imo, worthy of consideration.

* Is Donald Trump About to Become NAFTA's Savior? *
https://slate.com/business/2018/08/donald-trump-may-be-about-to-save-nafta.html

Last sentence of the article:



> The lunatic president who threatened to destroy NAFTA may be the one who actually makes America learn to love it.


Sounds bizarre, but the article is a good read.


----------



## Johnny b

* Lobbyist pleads guilty in Mueller probe *

https://www.cnn.com/videos/politics...video/playlists/robert-mullers-investigation/



> Washington lobbyist W. Samuel Patten pleaded guilty to acting as an unregistered foreign lobbyist, and admitted to lying to the Senate Intelligence Committee and funneling a Ukrainian oligarch's money to Donald Trump's Presidential Inaugural Committee.


Looks like Mueller's investigation is 'connecting the dots' of a collusion scenario.


----------



## Johnny b

Trump wants to jail H Clinton because of missing emails, but has no shame in keeping secret 100K pages of documents concerning his nomination to the Supreme Court.

And this is a surprise?

*Trump officials withhold 100K pages of Kavanaugh's records *

http://thehill.com/homenews/adminis...-withholds-100000-pages-on-kavanaughs-records



> The White House has pushed to withhold more than 100,000 pages of records related to Supreme Court nominee Brett Kavanaugh's time as White House lawyer during the George W. Bush administration.


Begs the question, what is Kavanaugh's position on legalizing torture and the extent of Presidential powers?

Maybe the rally cry should include jailing Trump


----------



## Johnny b

Some of those 'little' facts about Trump that popped up, of interest:

https://www.newsweek.com/trump-taxpayers-pay-political-events-nearby-golf-course-1100506



> As of last week, the president had spent 150 of his nearly 600 days in office at a golf club bearing his own name. That is a quarter of his time in office.


Days Obama spent golfing in his 8 years of his Presidency:

https://trumpgolfcount.com/


> Total times Obama played golf during his *eight year Presidency*: 306


Costs of Trump's outings:


> Days Trump has spent at Mar a Lago:
> 
> 72
> 
> Cost of flights to Mar a Lago (17 so far):*
> 
> ~$35,209,000
> 
> Days Trump has spent at Bedminster:
> 
> 56
> 
> Cost of flights to Bedminster (18 so far):*
> 
> ~$12,850,000





> Trump has visited his clubs once every this many days since his inauguration:
> 
> 4.2


----------



## Johnny b

And now things seem to get strange concerning the Trump-Canada comments posted earlier.

* Journalist says Bloomberg not source of Trump's off-the-record Canada remarks *

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news...rump-canada-remarks-reporter-says/1175212002/



> The Canadian journalist who published President Donald Trump's disparaging, off-the-record remarks about trade talks with Canada flatly rejected the president's charge that the Bloomberg journalists who had conducted the Oval Office interview had leaked the material.
> 
> "I'd said I wasn't going to say anything about my source for the quotes Trump made off the record to Bloomberg," Daniel Dale, the Washington correspondent for the Toronto Star, wrote on Twitter Saturday. "However, I don't want to be party to the president's smearing of excellent, ethical journalists. So I can say this: none of the Bloomberg interviewers was my source."
> 
> ..................
> 
> The Bloomberg News journalists included editor-in-chief John Micklethwait and reporters Jennifer Jacobs and Margaret Talev.
> 
> Also present were White House Press Secretary Sarah Sanders and presidential assistant Dan Scavino, Vox reports.
> 
> Trump was also in the room.


If not Bloomberg, who was the leak?

https://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/2018/9/1/17808706/trump-off-the-record-toronto-star-canada


> Bloomberg put out a transcript of the sit-down, but that excluded portions of the conversation that were "off the record," meaning there was a clear understanding between Trump and the reporters that what he said could not be made public. Asking for remarks and information to be off the record - and journalists granting it - is common practice in journalism.


A mystery


----------



## Johnny b

Maybe it was John Baron?


----------



## Chawbacon

Johnny-be-Good said:


> * Lobbyist pleads guilty in Mueller probe *
> 
> https://www.cnn.com/videos/politics...video/playlists/robert-mullers-investigation/
> 
> Looks like Mueller's investigation is 'connecting the dots' of a collusion scenario.


Possibly. Keep in mind though that the plea agreement did not mention that Trump had direct/indirect knowledge of the illicit donation. Therefore, plausible deniability remains in play for Trump.

I did find it interesting how CNN tries to innuendo the Russia government into a story about the Ukraine government. I seem to remember that the Ukrainian and the Russian governments were not exactly on speaking terms during the last U.S. Presidential election campaign. Some little thing about the Russians invading Ukraine to annex Crimea back in 2014, that the Ukraine government was/is still sore about. *However*, considering how Obama did not step up to the table and help Ukraine during a time of attack from a foreign country, I can find Ukrainian collusion much more plausible concept than Russian collusion.


----------



## Johnny b

Chawbacon said:


> ..................
> 
> I did find it interesting how CNN tries to innuendo the Russia government into a story about the Ukraine government. ............................


Not a connection to the Ukraine government , the article links illegal funding from a Ukrainian oligarch.

But that's not all Patten has to answer to.

This link shows Patten receiving $1 million from the Ukrainian party known as the Opposition Bloc.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/loca...e8-a8d7-0f63ab8b1370_story.html?noredirect=on

The issue there:


> Prosecutors contended that Patten formed a company with a Russian national, identified only as "Foreigner A," to engage in lobbying and political consulting services.
> 
> The company has received about $1 million since 2015 for its Ukraine consulting work, which included advising a Ukrainian party known as the Opposition Bloc, as well as some of its members, one of whom is a prominent Ukraine businessman identified only as "Foreigner B."


Patten is merely the smallest link in the chain of illegal funding and probably the weakest.
But his services along with his association with Manafort is another matter.


----------



## Johnny b

It becomes obvious under the Trump administration that corrupt Republican politicians should be exempt from the 'draining of the swamp'.

* Trump levels a new blast at Sessions for not shielding indicted GOP lawmakers, including Hunter *

http://www.latimes.com/politics/la-na-pol-trump-sessions-lawmakers-20180903-story.html



> President Trump intensified his criticism of Atty. Gen. Jeff Sessions on Monday, this time suggesting that the Justice Department should not have brought indictments against two Republican members of Congress, one of them from California, before the midterm elections in November.
> 
> The congressmen he referred to in two combative tweets were Reps. Duncan Hunter of Alpine, who was charged last month with spending campaign funds on personal expenses and falsifying federal reports on his political finances, and Chris Collins of New York, who two weeks earlier was accused of insider trading and lying to the FBI. The two were the first members of Congress to endorse Trump after he announced his bid for president in 2015, at a time when few others did.


As often noted, Trump presents a lie to rationalize his own corruption:



> Trump also falsely referred to the investigations of the two congressmen as being "long running, Obama era" matters.
> 
> Collins was indicted for alleged insider trading that he conducted in 2017, including a phone call from the White House lawn while he was attending a social function with Trump. The investigation into Hunter's campaign spending began in 2016 with inquiries by the Federal Election Commission. The FBI first conducted a search of Hunter's office in February 2017, shortly after Trump was inaugurated.


----------



## Johnny b

The reality of that utterly fantastigorical Trump economic recovery:

* The gaping hole in Trump's economic boom *
https://finance.yahoo.com/news/gaping-hole-trumps-economic-boom-2-192314032.html



> Corporate profits are at new highs, and the stock market keeps hitting new records, as well. There's just one problem: Ordinary people aren't seeing the same gains in their own paychecks. Not even close, in fact.


Interesting article, but ask any Trumpster about the economy and all you get is a fantasy scripted by Donald, himself.


----------



## Wino

There are few, if any, pragmatic Trumpsters - they seem to be in some mystical parallel mythical universe.


----------



## Johnny b

It appears Giuliani had three conditions concerning a Trump interview by Mueller.

https://www.sfgate.com/technology/b...-out-3-conditions-Mueller-has-to-13205271.php

Translation:
1. Don't ask Trump about anything he's done in the past.

2. Don't ask Trump about anything he's currently doing.

3. Don't ask Trump about anything he's considering to do.

I could be wrong, but with Giuliani's definition of 'truth', I don't see how it even matters  (  )


----------



## Johnny b

The Life and Times of Trumptonian politics in Washington DC

Titled "Fear" with a potential subtitle, Trump's Crazytown.

* In 'Fear,' Bob Woodward Pulls Back the Curtain on President Trump's 'Crazytown' *
https://www.nytimes.com/2018/09/05/books/review-fear-trump-in-white-house-bob-woodward.html

None of it appears to be 'new' news to those that actually read the news every day, but put it all together in a book and, honestly, in my humble opinion, it reads like bizarre fiction.
And one might ask themselves, why did this happen and why is it allowed to continue? (rhetorical of course  )

I listen to political commentators project that Trump likely won't loose a single supporter no matter how bad this gets. Or, no matter how much worse it can get (  )

Maybe the issue isn't surviving Trump, but rather surviving elements of a society bent on self destruction. He was 'legally' elected.


----------



## Chawbacon

*Donald Trump just wondered why protests are allowed. Yes, really.*
https://www.cnn.com/2018/09/05/politics/donald-trump-protest/index.html

_*"*(CNN)President Donald Trump has made no secret of his disdain for NFL players protesting police treatment of African-Americans by kneeling during the playing of the National Anthem. "As far as the NFL is concerned, I just find it hard to watch, and always will, until they stand for the FLAG!" Trump tweeted on Wednesday morning._

_But, in an interview with the conservative Daily Caller site on Tuesday afternoon, Trump took his views on protests even further -- raising the question as to whether protests should even be allowed._
_"I think it's embarrassing for the country to allow protesters, you don't even know which side the protesters were on," Trump said. "But to allow someone to stand up and scream from the top of their lungs and nobody does anything about it is frankly - I think it's an embarrassment."_

I am really disappointed in CNN for publishing an article in this particular manner. While the quote by Trump is correct, the Trump quote (when read in context) had nothing to do with the NFL player protests. The quote was garnered in response to how the Democrats and liberal protesters were behaving at the Kavanaugh confirmation hearing (a context that CNN does not address until after the outlandish accusation has been made). Understanding that most people will not read beyond a few paragraphs of a story, CNN is intentionally slanting the news in a very unprofessional way. Granted... FoxNews does this also; but, not normally to this degree of deception.


----------



## valis

Nothing personal, but you are really reaching with that statement.

First, that is a direct freaking quote. How can that be 'out of context'? This is akin to him calling Woodward's book 'fiction'.

Second, we all know Fox and CNN are both biased. That is not news and neither are they. That has 'opinion' written all over it, including the media.

Finally, gonna laugh hard if Woodward does it again.


----------



## Johnny b

Imo, too much whining 

Trump is known for being obtuse and obnoxious.
He's already posted he expects 'his people' to be as respectful as North Korea's citizen-slaves are to Kim Jong-un. 

That said, there is no excuse to allow protesters to physically interfere in legal operations of the government.


----------



## Chawbacon

I believe that Woodward wrote similar books on Bush and Obama that were also greeted with much skepticism and condemnation (respective of party affiliation); however, Trump is significantly more verbal (painfully so!) in opposition to the book.

Back on topic... Correct... That is a direct quote! Which your response caused me to ponder a bit. I think that there is a substantial thought difference between the Trump supporters and the Media along with many liberals that follow mainstream media outlets. And that difference is not a display of idiocy, or moronic traits, on either side.

I have observed that the mainstream media tends to take everything that Trump says literally, without any context; but, they also tend to not take Trump's comments seriously, except to develop articles of outrage. That is not to say that the articles are not factual at times; however, the constant pulling of the fire-alarm begins to feel like The Boy Who Cried Wolf. 

On the other hand Trump supporters tend to not view Trumps comments literally, instead the Trump supporters focus on the substance that they read within his comments. The Trump supporters seem to view Trump as not well spoken; but, they can see the meaning (or issue) that Trump's is attempting to put emphasis on. 

On this particular issue, I am reading comments indicating that it is embarrassing for out country to allow protesters access to a senate confirmation hearing (on which I have not developed an opinion at this point).


----------



## Johnny b

Chawbacon said:


> ......................
> 
> On this particular issue, I am reading comments indicating that it is embarrassing for out country to allow protesters access to a senate confirmation hearing (on which I have not developed an opinion at this point).


On this. I agree.
Protesters should not have the right to disrupt legitimate government processes.
But they do have the right to openly disagree.


----------



## Johnny b

* Anonymous senior Trump official blasts president as erratic and amoral: 'I am part of the resistance' *

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news...atic-amoral-anonymous-times-op-ed/1205832002/



> A senior administration official penned an anonymous essay in The New York Times on Wednesday describing President Donald Trump as erratic and amoral and said his aides were actively working to thwart him on decisions that are detrimental to the nation.


Reality: If you take the job, and accept the pay, you're onboard.
If conditions are that bad, resign. 
Why didn't he resign and expose his identity ?

It's obvious Trump's circle has been dysfunctional from the beginning and this will only make current critical decision making all the worse with a President already expressing paranoia.

This scenario is exactly a major reason why a man of Trump's character never should have been chosen in a primary to run for office.

It's also a scenario that's questionable because the source is secret.


----------



## Johnny b

Reality check.

This is an opinion piece, but it definitely demonstrates how poorly Trump reacts to the same barrage of political attacks that he used and still uses against Obama , H Clinton and all those that oppose his policies.

* Trump sees treason from within *
https://www.cnn.com/2018/09/06/politics/donald-trump-white-house/index.html

Old saying that still holds true to today:
What comes around, goes around.

Politics isn't for the weak of mind or the weak of character. But it does seem to draw from that pool of incompetence. It was bad enough before Trump entered politics.

And now Trump faces essentially the same political ethics that put him in office and whines about it.

Can't please everybody


----------



## Johnny b

Chawbacon said:


> .........
> 
> ......................
> 
> I have observed that the mainstream media tends to take everything that Trump says literally, without any context; but, they also tend to not take Trump's comments seriously, except to develop articles of outrage. That is not to say that the articles are not factual at times; however, the constant pulling of the fire-alarm begins to feel like The Boy Who Cried Wolf.
> 
> On the other hand Trump supporters tend to not view Trumps comments literally, instead the Trump supporters focus on the substance that they read within his comments. The Trump supporters seem to view Trump as not well spoken; but, they can see the meaning (or issue) that Trump's is attempting to put emphasis on.
> 
> ........................


You seem to ignore the reality of political promises often ending as soon as power is achieved.
This is true for both Republicans and Democrats.
Add in propaganda that appeals to segments of a population, ignore cause and effects that drive nefarious agendas that hide from plain sight and rationalize those actions as moral and ethical goals.

Trump was never a Republican. Nor a Democrat.
Purely an opportunist that appeals to the basest moral and character flaws of humanity.

He's a real estate developer. Was and still is.
He'll do anything, say anything to make a profit. And make his followers believe it's merely the 'way the game is played'. 'The art of the deal.'
All one has to do is give him full control of our lives. Our freedoms. Our wealth.

Some people see that as a dictatorship.


----------



## Wino

Johnny-be-Good said:


> * Anonymous senior Trump official blasts president as erratic and amoral: 'I am part of the resistance' *
> 
> https://www.usatoday.com/story/news...atic-amoral-anonymous-times-op-ed/1205832002/
> 
> *Reality: If you take the job, and accept the pay, you're onboard.
> If conditions are that bad, resign.
> Why didn't he resign and expose his identity ?*
> 
> It's obvious Trump's circle has been dysfunctional from the beginning and this will only make current critical decision making all the worse with a President already expressing paranoia.
> 
> This scenario is exactly a major reason why a man of Trump's character never should have been chosen in a primary to run for office.
> 
> It's also a scenario that's questionable because the source is secret.


Whilst I would normally agree with this (bold above), this is a different situation than normal. We need some sane adults in this administration that MAY prevent this POTUS from taking the nation over the brink into the abyss he seems hell bent on taking us.

Would be hilarious if the "insider" turned out to be Pence.

Regarding Woodward's book and the WH Insider and Trump when it comes to being truthful and believable, I'll take the two former over the POTUS anytime. I'll also add Wolfe and Amarosa to that group to be believed before Trump.

This all would be quite funny if it weren't reality. This is like watching a novel unfold chapter to chapter, becoming crazier than reality, then realizing it is exactly that. Scary stuff.


----------



## Johnny b

I agree.
There is NOTHING normal about the Trump administration.

As all thing are relative, Trump holds down the totally unbelievable position and moves every one else up a notch lol!

What makes Woodward's book interesting is that it's credible from what is already known.


----------



## Johnny b

More tariffs with China?

* Trump says he's ready to hit China with another $267 billion in tariffs *

https://www.cnbc.com/2018/09/07/tru...r-267-billion-in-china-goods-ready-to-go.html



> President Donald Trump told reporters on Air Force One Friday that he was "ready to go" on tariffs for another $267 billion in Chinese goods "if he wants," which would come on top of the $200 billion in goods already targeted, according to Bloomberg and Reuters.


"*if he wants*"?
Looks like he's doubling down on failure, imo.


----------



## Lanctus

Johnny-be-Good said:


> More tariffs with China?
> 
> * Trump says he's ready to hit China with another $267 billion in tariffs *
> 
> https://www.cnbc.com/2018/09/07/tru...r-267-billion-in-china-goods-ready-to-go.html
> 
> "*if he wants*"?
> Looks like he's doubling down on failure, imo.


I'm sure he's used to being a "big shot" and having people give him what he wants. China is not going to bow down though. Saving face is important, and have enough international backing to go head to head and survive. Trump has alienated us from our allies, and China owns $1.18 Trillion of the U.S.'s debt, with Japan holding $1.03 Trillion of additional U.S. debt. We don't have a leg to stand on, and he wants to play chicken with China?
https://www.thebalance.com/u-s-debt-to-china-how-much-does-it-own-3306355


----------



## Wino

I'll weigh in on this later - on my way out to buy some Nike Swoosh stuff!!! Screw you Donald!!


----------



## steppenwolf

"I'll weigh in on this later - on my way out to buy some Nike Swoosh stuff!!! Screw you Donald!!"

yeah made by slaves in asia at 3 cents an hour

youre a great man!!!


----------



## Johnny b

steppenwolf said:


> "I'll weigh in on this later - on my way out to buy some Nike Swoosh stuff!!! Screw you Donald!!"
> 
> yeah made by slaves in asia at 3 cents an hour
> 
> youre a great man!!!


IMO, Nike's are over priced.


----------



## Lanctus

steppenwolf said:


> "I'll weigh in on this later - on my way out to buy some Nike Swoosh stuff!!! Screw you Donald!!"
> 
> yeah made by slaves in asia at 3 cents an hour
> 
> youre a great man!!!


Why in the world do you care about shoes?


----------



## Littlefield

The irony of Nike using Asian "slave labor" while pretending to be SJW's is rather fricking funny. LOL


----------



## Johnny b

The Trumps project themselves as social justice warriors also.
And this is their abuse of slave labor where they can find it, including Asia.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news...erseas-heres-the-complete-list/?noredirect=on

Pretending seems to be profitable.

Thanks for bringing that up.


----------



## Lanctus

He also has made his clothing line in China (his hat is a different issue). He blames CHINA for making his clothes. https://abcnews.go.com/Politics/donald-trump-admits-gear-made-china-labels/story?id=13472355
Has anyone ever heard him admitting the blame for a mistake or wrong doing?


----------



## Johnny b

It appears Trump disapproves of tariffs on what he imports:

* Trump Tariffs Spare Clothing Industry -- Including Ivanka's Chinese-Made Products *

https://www.huffingtonpost.com/entr...shoes-ivanka-safe_us_5b42a597e4b09e4a8b2e72c3



> Despite the president's mantra to "buy American and hire American" the Trump family retains major business operations overseas, and the Trump Organization continues to manufacture most Trump products in foreign factories.


Shocking......(  )


----------



## Johnny b

Lanctus said:


> .......
> Has anyone ever heard him admitting the blame for a mistake or wrong doing?


Well, he did hire Cohen as a lawyer and admitted to regretting it


----------



## Lanctus

Johnny-be-Good said:


> Well, he did hire Cohen as a lawyer and admitted to regretting it


But he only hires the BEST people! The BEST, believe me! He has so many GREAT people, the White House should have a revolving door they enter and leave so quickly!


----------



## Johnny b

Looks like Donald might be going to try to solve his problems with a lie detector.

And it hasn't even been 2 years.


----------



## Johnny b

Back to Trump's lack of business sense:

*This car is the poster child for Trump's trade folly *

https://finance.yahoo.com/news/car-poster-child-trumps-trade-folly-185935773.html



> President Trump wants Ford to lose money. And Apple to hike prices.
> 
> As Trump's protectionist trade policy intensifies, inevitable economic distortions are materializing. And the Ford Focus subcompact has become the poster child for what can go wrong when politicians try to dictate what private-sector companies should do.


A good article, imo.
Too much to copy and paste, but explains why Trump's tariffs aren't much more than political extortion and at the same time, damaging to many US based businesses.


----------



## Wino

....................but, but.......................I understand he is a stable genius. Is this not so?? The P.T. Barnum of sales and deals?? Has he lied to me??


----------



## Johnny b

It will be interesting to see how effectively these new sanctions are enforced, being so close to mid term elections and that Trump has been hesitant to enforce sanctions on Russia in the past.

* Trump signs new order to sanction countries that meddle in U.S. elections *
https://www.usatoday.com/story/news...sh-foreign-meddling-u-s-elections/1279596002/

Hollow words?
Only time will tell.


----------



## Lanctus

But I thought Russia didn't hack us, and there was "no collusion"? If as he says they didn't (despite a mountain of evidence from intelligence agencies), why would this order need to be in place? If nothing happened, why the sanctions?


----------



## Johnny b

Could be to try to offset the coming Democrat response at the mid term election, but that's just cynical me


----------



## Wino

The EO doesn't specifically name Russia, which I presume is an attempt not to upset Putie. I also suspect Agent Orange is fearing they may help the left in November 2018 elections as they did him in 2016.

Received my copy of "Fear: Trump in the White House" - put it on bookshelf rather than read as stomach upset already. LOL

As I recall, he hasn't enacted many, if any, of the sanctions against Russia in past. An EO doesn't really carry force of law - kinda just going thru motions he is concerned - he must have "shorted" when he signed. LOL


----------



## Johnny b

It appears Brett Kavanaugh is merely another of Trump's ilk, a wrecking ball of democracy and an enemy of a free society.

* Brett Kavanaugh misled the Senate under oath. I cannot support his nomination. *

https://www.washingtonpost.com/opin...e8-b79f-f6e31e555258_story.html?noredirect=on

To much detail to copy and paste.
But this sums it up:



> Time and again, Kavanaugh appears to have misled the Senate under oath.
> 
> Just as troubling is that there is still much we do not know. With the rush to confirm Kavanaugh, the Senate has vetted only 7 percent of his White House record. And Republicans are intent on keeping the rest hidden. On Thursday, Republicans repeatedly blocked subpoenas that would have answered these questions. And the White House is withholding an outrageous 102,000 pages of records, the "most significant portion" of which relates to judicial nominations.


----------



## Johnny b

Trump has just got to be sweating bullets about now:

* Paul Manafort to plead guilty as part of deal with special counsel Robert Mueller: reports *

https://www.daytondailynews.com/new...obert-mueller-reports/mwAiqArKJiVbKMfqaAkchI/



> WASHINGTON -
> 
> President Donald Trump's former campaign chair Paul Manafort is expected to plead guilty Friday to charges connected to work he did for pro-Russia political forces in Ukraine, according to court filings obtained Friday morning by several news outlets.


https://apnews.com/cc5a0e1911e243ab833b63b75e0ceabb

https://www.washingtonpost.com/worl...e8-a7b5-adaaa5b2a57f_story.html?noredirect=on


> Another conviction would cap a dramatic fall for the international power broker and confidant of Republican presidents dating to Ronald Reagan. Manafort's decision could be mixed news for Trump, who tapped the consultant to serve as his campaign chairman in June 2016 as he was securing the GOP presidential nomination.
> 
> If Manafort were to cooperate with Mueller, that could provide investigators new evidence or leads to chase; a guilty plea, however, would prevent weeks' worth of headlines about the trial in the month before congressional elections.


In other words, screw Trump, he did it for the Party


----------



## Johnny b

Trump: Inconsistant with truth, a denier of reality and insensitive to pain and death of others caught up in tragedies:

* Trump says Puerto Rico death toll rose 'like magic' and was in 'no way' possible *

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news...co-no-way-tropical-storm-florence/1313371002/



> "Over many months, it went to 64 people," Trump tweeted. "Then, like magic, '3,000 people killed."
> 
> Trump's rhetoric on Maria has been persistent in the last two days. On Thursday he claimed that the death toll in Puerto Rico was a Democratic ploy to "make me look as bad as possible."


How inconvenient 

Apparently tossing rolls of paper towels to the crowds in Puerto Rico didn't save anyone afterall. 

https://www.huffingtonpost.com/entr...er-towels-at-them_us_59d3db64e4b0218923e5b4f7

From the mouth of Trump:


> "I hate to tell you, Puerto Rico, but you've thrown our budget a little out of whack," he said.


About the budget and Trump deficits:

* Trump trillion-dollar-plus deficits are putting America on a path to fiscal ruin *
https://www.usatoday.com/story/opin...r-plus-deficits-fiscal-ruin-column/986236002/
Simply tax the wealthy less and spend more.

Trump built his empire on risking the bankruptcy of his various corporations ( not his personal wealth ) and obviously somehow convinced America that we should, also, as a nation.

Anyone really believe wealth and prosperity is merely a bankruptcy away? 

While American citizens of Puerto Rico suffered, insanity in DC figures out how build wealth on trade tarriffs and tax breaks for the ultra wealthy.
The 'swamp' in DC was never drained, mental retardation in voters (  ) merely replaced some of the players with new villains.


----------



## Johnny b

And now.....a reason for the high death count in Puerto Rico:

Spousal abuse.
No, I'm not making this up, it's what one of Trump's shills at FEMA claims.

* FEMA administrator defends President Trump's comments about Puerto Rico death toll, says 'spousal abuse goes through the roof' in aftermath of storms *

https://finance.yahoo.com/news/fema...nt-trumps-comments-puerto-rico-191036468.html

Shameful.
Shameful to claim it.
Shame on those that believe it.

A google image search of Puerto Rico after Hurricane Maria

https://www.google.com/search?tbm=i...VC1IMKHf3bC8wQ4lYIKCgC&biw=1228&bih=686&dpr=1


----------



## Johnny b

More on Kavanaugh:

Character traits often follow through out a life span.
There is more to Kavanaugh to be concerned about, later in his life, as a member of the judicial community.

* We Know Brett Kavanaugh Has Lied Already *

https://www.huffingtonpost.com/entr...ld-kavanaugh-lies_us_5ba020f6e4b013b0977defff



> ....there's clear evidence showing that Kavanaugh lied under oath during the 2006 confirmation hearing for his spot on the U.S. Court of Appeals for the D.C. Circuit.......
> .....
> Kavanaugh played a decisive leadership role in managing Pickering's nomination and then lied to me about it. [
> 
> .......
> In another example, Kavanaugh had worked to advance multiple controversial judicial nominations from President George W. Bush during a time when a Republican Senate staffer named Manuel Miranda accessed and downloaded thousands of computer files belonging to Democratic senators. Because Kavanaugh could have been in receipt of the stolen documents, he was grilled by senators of both parties on the matter at his first confirmation hearing in 2004 and he denied any involvement.
> 
> But emails released this year show that Kavanaugh received material from numerous emails, draft letters and memos laying out the legal arguments Democrats were going to make regarding Bush's judicial nominees, including talking points written by a staffer to Sen. Patrick Leahy (D-Vt.).


With 100k+ documents withheld concerning Kavanaugh, it becomes courious what else needs to be known of the man before he becomes responsible for defending the US Constitution. 
Is he defending the bedrock of our society, or a President that tilts toward national socialism?


----------



## Johnny b

I don't thinkI've ever seen as much open disrespect as what's happening with Trump. Not with any President of the past. Hopefully never again in the future.
But the public believed his 'song and dance' sound byte about making America great again, and this is what we got.....

It's a big mistake for any politician or office seeker to pay for the services of a prostitute, and for many reasons.
Ridicule is an obvious one.
On a personal level about physical appearence especially.
Especially by the prostitute.

Stormy Daniels has a book out.
Full Disclosure. 
I can't even post a link because of the descriptor used about Trump's appearence, but if you google 
"Stormy Daniels Full Disclosure + mushroom" with out the quotes, you'll see what I mean.

After all the personal mean and bullying tactics Trump has used against his rivals in the past, he just got trumped 


Trump, the mushroom man.


----------



## Wino

A true mushroom would be a better POTUS than this human stain.


----------



## Chawbacon

*"Poland's new tactic for getting a U.S. military base? Pitch it as Fort Trump."
*
https://www.washingtonpost.com/worl...ory.html?noredirect=on&utm_term=.78c37c497a88

"After months of pushing for a permanent U.S. military presence in Poland as a bulwark against Russia, the Polish president offered President Trump a new incentive tailored to his real estate sensibilities: naming rights."

Ya know??? I have to say that The WP (edit) has a point here.


----------



## Johnny b

* Trump wants Spain to build a wall across the Sahara desert, which is in Africa, to address the European migration crisis *

https://www.businessinsider.com/tru...ara-desert-to-address-migration-crisis-2018-9



> President Donald Trump's obsession with building walls has apparently gone global.
> 
> Trump recently suggested to the Spanish government it should build a wall in the Sahara desert to address the migration crisis, according to Spain's foreign minister Josep Borrell.
> 
> ........
> 
> Beyond the sheer size of the Sahara, the other challenge to building such a wall is the fact Spain would need permission to do so from the African countries the massive desert stretches across.


Idiot.


----------



## Wino

His mind is as arid as the Sahara.


----------



## Johnny b

Wino said:


> His mind is as arid as the Sahara.


I would have said vacant but that isn't exactly true with all the wild and curious things that inhabbit his intellect


----------



## Johnny b

Psycho Ben is in the news again, now bringing fresh conspiracy theories apparently as a rationale to justify abusing women.

* Trump HUD Secretary Ben Carson claims Kavanaugh allegations are part of a centuries old socialist plot *

https://www.cnbc.com/2018/09/21/hud...ugh-allegation-is-part-of-a-socialist-plot.ht



> Secretary of Housing and Urban Development Dr. Ben Carson told an audience of conservative activists on Friday that the sexual assault allegations facing President Donald Trump's nominee to the Supreme Court are part of a plot by socialists to take over America that dates back more than a century.


Looks like the Republican Party has become the party of 'Loons are Us'


----------



## Johnny b

If it hasn't been noticed already (  ) , this is how tryanny censors a free press.
This example, social media and news aggrigates.

* White House proposes executive order to Trump that would examine tech companies' practices *

https://thehill.com/policy/technolo...utive-order-for-trump-that-would-examine-tech



> The White House is drafting an executive order to look into the business practices of top tech companies like Google and Facebook, Bloomberg reported Saturday.
> 
> https://www.bloomberg.com/news/arti...for-trump-would-crack-down-on-google-facebook
> 
> A copy of the draft order obtained by Bloomberg directs federal antitrust and law enforcement officials to "thoroughly investigate whether any online platform has acted in violation of the antitrust laws."
> 
> Other government agencies are then asked to provide recommendations on how to "protect competition among online platforms and address online platform bias."


The bias would obviously be what Trump doesn't like seeing in electronic print.


----------



## Johnny b

Kavanaugh appears to have more problems involving alcohol and abuse of women.

* Second woman accuses Brett Kavanaugh of sexual assault in New Yorker report *
https://www.usatoday.com/story/news...im-sexual-assault-deborah-ramirez/1406607002/

* The Kavanaugh nomination just got even more complicated *
https://www.cnn.com/2018/09/24/politics/kavanaugh-new-allegation-supreme-court-future/index.html

And this one at Fox News:
* Kavanaugh denies 2nd accuser's sexual misconduct allegation as Avenatti claims 'evidence' of 'targeting' women for gang rape *
http://www.foxnews.com/politics/201...ugh-exposed-himself-to-her-at-yale-party.html


> Supreme Court nominee Brett Kavanaugh faced a storm of new sexual misconduct allegations Sunday after attorney Michael Avenatti said he had knowledge that Kavanaugh and high school friend Mark Judge targeted women with drugs and alcohol in order to "allow a 'train' of men to subsequently gang rape them."


----------



## Littlefield

After six days of carefully assessing her memories and consulting with her attorney, Ramirez said that she felt confident enough of her recollections to say that she remembers Kavanaugh had exposed himself at a drunken dormitory.......

She was at first hesitant to speak publicly, partly because her memories contained gaps because she had been drinking at the time of the alleged incident. LOL


Avenatti, LOL , yea that unsubstantiated gang rape may backfire with Collins and Flake.


----------



## Johnny b

Well, that was constructive 

Evangelical?


----------



## Littlefield

Sounds like Ramirez is a real credible witness. Maybe she had so many men in her face when she was smashed thinking she thought oh yea one had to be Kavanaugh’s.
But she said she had never touched seen a real penis before. LMAO


----------



## Johnny b

Littlefield said:


> Sounds like Ramirez is a real credible witness. Maybe she had so many men in her face when she was smashed thinking she thought oh yea one had to be Kavanaugh's.
> But she said she had never touched seen a real penis before. LMAO




You're only making yourself the next poster boy for the #MeToo movement LOL!

Yea Trump


----------



## Johnny b

Scandal here, scandal there, scandal scandal every where.......or so it seems. 
And they seem to be Trump's best of friends. Go figure.

* CNN's Pro-Trump Commentator Jason Miller Exits After Abortion Pill Accusations *

https://www.thewrap.com/cnn-jason-miller-pressure-drop-abortion-pill-accusations/



> Pro-Trump CNN political commentator Jason Miller announced Saturday that he has "decided to step away" from the network after a recent accusation in a legal filing that he slipped abortion pills to a former lover without her knowledge.


Of course he denies it


----------



## Wino

Jason Miller - another prime example of conservative "family values". LOL Following in the manner of their glorious leader, Orange Mushroom! Bruhahahaha!!!


----------



## Johnny b

CNN TV is reporting Rosenstein is turning in his resignation.

edit: seems to be some confusion over this claim

edit #2 Looks like Rosenstein meets his fate with Trump this thursday 
https://www.cnbc.com/2018/09/24/deputy-attorney-general-rod-rosenstein-is-reportedly-resigning.html

( maybe, lol  )


----------



## Wino

Resigned, fired, either way he's history. We're probably heading for a constitutional crisis that will roil this nation to it's core. All because an idiot was elected president by a minority of voters.


----------



## Lanctus

"It's always darkest before the light." This has played true throughout human history. Short of the Second Coming, there will always be liars, manipulators, and abusers, and those that actively fight against them. Keep your heart and your character. You cannot take back actions and words once done and said. The proof blankets the headlines.


----------



## Lanctus

"President Trump on Tuesday strode to the podium at the United Nations General Assembly in New York City to "share the extraordinary progress" the U.S. has made during his time in office. The reaction he received from the assembled world leaders wasn't what he was expecting.

"In less than two years, my administration has accomplished more than almost any administration in the history of our country," Trump proclaimed. There was a smattering of audible laughter from the assembled diplomats, representing 193 countries.

The president paused his prepared remarks.

"So true," Trump said with a tight-lipped smile, adding: "Didn't expect that reaction, but that's OK."

More laughter and applause followed."

https://www.yahoo.com/news/trump-touts-achievements-u-n-laughs-153255266.html


----------



## Drabdr

Littlefield said:


> Sounds like Ramirez is a real credible witness. Maybe she had so many men in her face when she was smashed thinking she thought oh yea one had to be Kavanaugh's.
> But she said she had never touched seen a real penis before. LMAO


Not to take away from the fun and excitement... Littlefield.. I edited out a couple of words from this post. We certainly want to allow free-flow discussion/ debate. But please do try to avoid foul language/ words in posts.

OK, back to the ranch.


----------



## Johnny b

Still good as a poster boy


----------



## Chawbacon

Now, if this article is proven to be true, how can any Democrat, or Republican, find a logical reason to cast a Nay vote for Kavanaugh based on the issue of an _accused_ sexual assault from 36 years ago? To do so would tantamount to a trial conducted without a jury. If so, we might as well be on that episode of The Orville, where the planet visited has a justice system based solely upon social media UP and DOWN votes, and whether or not you can generate a successful apology tour. An episode that I found entertaining and slightly concerning.

*All named eyewitnesses dispute Kavanaugh accuser Christine Blasey Ford's story*
https://legalinsurrection.com/2018/...that-all-her-eye-witnesses-dispute-her-story/


----------



## Johnny b

Chawbacon said:


> Now, if this article is proven to be true, how can any Democrat, or Republican, find a logical reason to cast a Nay vote for Kavanaugh based on the issue of an _accused_ sexual assault from 36 years ago? To do so would tantamount to a trial conducted without a jury. ..........................[/URL]
> [/SIZE]


Flawed argument.
The decision is not based on a trial. Kavanaugh has not been charged with a crime and it's unlikely to happen.
The decision is a choice based on morals, ethics and especially his judicial positions concerning Constitutionality.

The issue with Kavanaough is centering around his moral character.
And if the accusations are believable, he's a gonner.

And note, if the accusations are believable, the FBI didn't do a thorough background check.
And it's looking like a rush job created exactly that.


----------



## Chawbacon

Johnny-be-Good said:


> Flawed argument.
> The decision is not based on a trial. Kavanaugh has not been charged with a crime and it's unlikely to happen.
> The decision is a choice based on morals, ethics and especially his judicial positions concerning Constitutionality.
> 
> The issue with Kavanaough is centering around his moral character.
> And if the accusations are believable, he's a gonner.


I have to politely disagree with you here Johnny. While the issue is a question about moral character, the issue is also about essentially deciding that someone is guilty of a past crime (thereby preventing a judicial nomination), when the accuser has not presented any proof that the allegations are true. It is an injustice to try anyone in the court of public opinion, or the court of media bias, based solely upon an accusation. Even Hillary, who I personally believe is guilty of several crimes; but, who I also believe is an an individual that deserves her day in court.



Johnny-be-Good said:


> And note, if the accusations are believable, the FBI didn't do a thorough background check.
> And it's looking like a rush job created exactly that.


Just FYI - It is my understanding that Kavanaugh has already passed up to six FBI background checks over his years within the political arena. Not really a rush job, ya know.


----------



## Johnny b

Chawbacon said:


> I have to politely disagree with you here Johnny. While the issue is a question about moral character, the issue is also about essentially deciding that someone is guilty of a past crime (thereby preventing a judicial nomination), when the accuser has not presented any proof that the allegations are true. It is an injustice to try anyone in the court of public opinion, or the court of media bias, based solely upon an accusation. Even Hillary, who I personally believe is guilty of several crimes; but, who I also believe is an an individual that deserves her day in court.
> 
> Just FYI - It is my understanding that Kavanaugh has already passed up to six FBI background checks over his years within the political arena. Not really a rush job, ya know.


As the relative seriousness of the position being filled increases, so does the depth of the background checks.
Trump gained office because FBI background checks do not define a political position, campaigning and voting does define who sits in office other wise we wouldn't have the racist, misogynistic, narcissistic, egotistical, potentialy psycho and worldly buffoon of a president that sits in that position. 
As to Hillary, she's not even a consideration in the discussion.
If you want to file charges against her, have at it. I didn't support her in the last Presidential election 

The public does not get to vote on who becomes a Supreme Court Justice.
It's a final decision made by elected politicians.

The position is a choice presented by the President by nomination and approved by a majority of the Senate.
There is no trial.
Your argument is only a wish obviously driven by political affiliation.
A convenience of argument  

Because allegations are increasing in volume, it's obvious the FBI background check wasn't efficient, in the same vein that 100,000+ documents pertaining to Kavanaugh's past judicial history have been withheld from review.
Kavanaugh's early years of maturity were not reviewed efficiently. If they had been, these issues would have been addressed and either confirmed or found without merit. But until Ford spoke out, the public and Senate knew nothing of Kavanough's drunken past.
Now we learn more of that past as the press reveals more.

It is interesting there are those that think a background check belongs in a court room even though no charges have been filed.

Maybe mean drunks simply make poor judges 

What comes around, goes around, how ironic.

https://int.nyt.com/data/documenthe...b9a46ab055ee2458fd5/optimized/full.pdf#page=1

I guess it sucks to be a Trumpite


----------



## Lanctus

No one believed Bill Cosby, once one of America's most beloved and iconic "Dads", could have been capable of drugging and raping women, until women came forward and investigations were made. Now he is going to prison. Trump has currently 19 different women that tell similar stories about him. That Trump supports Kavanaugh and says he's "a gem", makes me question this guy even more. As we know, Trumpster only hires the WORST people. These 23 people as of July who have resigned or been fired can attest to Trump's amazing ability to judge character (since he has none): https://www.businessinsider.com/who-has-trump-fired-so-far-james-comey-sean-spicer-michael-flynn-2017-


----------



## Johnny b

Looks like there is a lot more to investigate about Kavanaugh.

* Michael Avenatti reveals Julie Swetnick as client making claims against Brett Kavanaugh *

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news...n-michael-avenatti-julie-swetnick/1431133002/



> Julie Swetnick, a client of attorney Michael Avenatti, alleged in a signed statement released Wednesday that Supreme Court nominee Brett Kavanaugh would drink to excess and "engage in abusive behavior" toward teenage girls while he was in high school.
> 
> In an explosive statement released by Avenatti, Swetnick said in the 1980s, she witnessed efforts by Kavanaugh and Mark Judge to get teenage girls "inebriated and disoriented so they could then be 'gang raped' in a side room or bedroom by a 'train' of numerous boys."
> 
> "I have a firm recollection of seeing boys lined up outside rooms at many of these parties waiting for their 'turn' with a girl inside the room," she said in the statement. "These boys included Mark Judge and Brett Kavanaugh."
> 
> ......................
> 
> Avenatti called for an FBI investigation into Swetnick's allegations.
> 
> "Under no circumstances should Brett Kavanaugh be confirmed absent a full and complete investigation," he said on Twitter.


Looks like there should have been a trial a long time ago


----------



## Johnny b

And now a time to review Trump.
Facts and fact checking.

No, I'm not going to list all the lies and distortions, too much to copy and paste (  )
But here is a link to about 5000 of them:
https://www.washingtonpost.com/graphics/politics/trump-claims-database/?utm_term=.0f7d97f02993

And notice the graph. The rate increases with time LOL!

And btw, that's only since he took office


----------



## Johnny b

It was frequently said Obama didn't like businesses, big or small.
Let's look at how much Trump likes big businesses:

* Ford CEO Says Trump Metals Tariffs Took $1 Billion of Profit *

https://finance.yahoo.com/news/ford-ceo-says-trump-metals-121230013.html



> Ford Motor Co. Chief Executive OfficerJim Hackett encouraged the Trump administration to resolve trade disputes quickly or it could do "more damage" to his company, which is already suffering losses from tariffs imposed by PresidentDonald Trump.
> 
> "The metals tariffs took about $1 billion in profit from us -- and the irony is we source most of that in the U.S. today anyways," Hackett said in an interview on Bloomberg Television. "If it goes on longer, there will be more damage."
> 
> ...............
> Ford reported net income in 2017 of $7.6 billion, the most since 2013, but with *analysts estimating a29 percent drop in profit this year*, it's embarked on an $11 billion restructuring effort to improve margins in the core automotive business while investing billions in electric and autonomous-vehicle technology.


Well....that doesn't look friendly at all.


----------



## robd53

Johnny-be-Good said:


> In another one of his tantrums, Trump again threatens to investigate himself (  )
> ( Pretty sure how that would work out  )
> 
> * Trump threatens to 'get involved' in law enforcement investigations into his own campaign *
> 
> https://www.usatoday.com/story/news...d-fbi-probe-mueller-investigation/1152113002/
> 
> Oh...the problems of the rich and infamous.....


Or Legends in his own Mind


----------



## Johnny b

While not acceptable evidence in a courtroom, this does weigh in favor of Ford being truthful.

*Here's the polygraph test Christine Blasey Ford took on her allegations against Kavanaugh *

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news...anaugh-sexual-assault-allegations/1434270002/



> Hanafin, who lists online that he provides polygraph services in Arlington, Va., wrote in his report that two other analysis' was conducted, both concluding Ford's answers showed no signs she was lying. One concluded the probability of deception was less than .02.


Seems a reasonable situation that begs for more investigation.


----------



## Chawbacon

Johnny-be-Good said:


> Your argument is only a wish obviously driven by political affiliation.
> A convenience of argument


I actually agree with the majority of your post; however, there are a few exceptions. The first being that my argument is driven by political affiliation. This is simply not true. I do not believe that anyone should be pronounced by the media, or political parties, as an abhorrent individual that is guilty of a crime based upon a lack of provable facts. Once those facts are proven true my opinion will naturally change. Accordingly, I argued in favor of Bill Clinton on the Lewinsky issue, until the supposed_ blue dress with DNA_ appeared, forcing The President to essentially admit that he had lied under oath.



Johnny-be-Good said:


> Kavanaugh's early years of maturity were not reviewed efficiently. If they had been, these issues would have been addressed and either confirmed or found without merit. But until Ford spoke out, the public and Senate knew nothing of Kavanough's drunken past.
> Now we learn more of that past as the press reveals more.


However, here you are falling into this group think mindset that Kavanaugh is guilty without the accuser supplying any proof, or without any individuals that can corroborate her version of events. I personally don't mind an additional FBI investigation (probably a Democrat stall tactic IMHO); regardless, it is simply wrong to label Kavanough as having a "drunken past" based upon unproven accusations.



Johnny-be-Good said:


> What comes around, goes around, how ironic.
> 
> https://int.nyt.com/data/documenthe...b9a46ab055ee2458fd5/optimized/full.pdf#page=1
> 
> I guess it sucks to be a Trumpite


Not the same circumstances with Billy. This memorandum was published after the blue dress and DNA match became public knowledge... BTW... This is what proof looks like. Now I still cannot say that Billy was guilty of sexual harassment; because, this appeared to be more of an affair between two consenting adults, and there was really not any proof that Lewinsky had been harassed. However, it was painfully clear that Billy lied under oath to cover his political hind end.

Actually, I could say the same about Democrats in Congress. I seem to recall the Democrats claiming that an FBI investigation was worthless (in relation to the Clarence Thomas hearings); because, the FBI only investigate and that they do not make a judgement. SHRUG


----------



## Chawbacon

Johnny-be-Good said:


> *Michael Avenatti reveals Julie Swetnick as client making claims against Brett Kavanaugh *
> 
> https://www.usatoday.com/story/news...n-michael-avenatti-julie-swetnick/1431133002/


Here again... We are talking about a presumption of guilt, without a presentation of proof. Until the proof arrives, people should suspend labeling the individuals involved. The sad part here, is that even if the accuser and her supporting accusers are correct, if they cannot establish some concrete proof, then Lindsey Graham has shed a significant amount of doubt upon her/their version of truth.

https://www.hannity.com/media-room/...on-latest-accusation-against-brett-kavanaugh/
(Sorry for the Hannity reference; but, the site had the most readable rendition.)

I also find it hard to believe that zero people stepped forward while these supposed atrocities were ongoing over a two year period.

Of particular note:

_"I have a difficult time believing any person would continue to go to - according to the affidavit - ten parties over a two-year period where women were routinely gang raped and not report it. I also find it curious these charges were not brought forward until 2018, two days before a confirmation vote._

_"Why would any reasonable person continue to hang around people like this? Why would any person continue to put their friends and themselves in danger? Isn't there some duty to warn others?_

_"This is outrageous, internally inconsistent, and I hope the U.S. Senate will see this for the smear campaign that it is._

_"It is outrageous to suggest that Brett Kavanaugh at any time in his life behaved this way. His life is inconsistent with any of these allegations. All women who have worked with and for Brett Kavanaugh when he was in a position of power have nothing but glowing things to say about the way he has conducted himself._ "


----------



## Johnny b

Chawbacon said:


> I actually agree with the majority of your post; however, there are a few exceptions. The first being that my argument is driven by political affiliation. This is simply not true. I do not believe that anyone should be pronounced by the media, or political parties, as an abhorrent individual that is guilty of a crime based upon a lack of provable facts. Once those facts are proven true my opinion will naturally change. Accordingly, I argued in favor of Bill Clinton on the Lewinsky issue, until the supposed_ blue dress with DNA_ appeared, forcing The President to essentially admit that he had lied under oath.
> 
> However, here you are falling into this group think mindset that Kavanaugh is guilty without the accuser supplying any proof, or without any individuals that can corroborate her version of events. I personally don't mind an additional FBI investigation (probably a Democrat stall tactic IMHO); regardless, it is simply wrong to label Kavanough as having a "drunken past" based upon unproven accusations.
> 
> Not the same circumstances with Billy. This memorandum was published after the blue dress and DNA match became public knowledge... BTW... This is what proof looks like. Now I still cannot say that Billy was guilty of sexual harassment; because, this appeared to be more of an affair between two consenting adults, and there was really not any proof that Lewinsky had been harassed. However, it was painfully clear that Billy lied under oath to cover his political hind end.
> 
> Actually, I could say the same about Democrats in Congress. I seem to recall the Democrats claiming that an FBI investigation was worthless (in relation to the Clarence Thomas hearings); because, the FBI only investigate and that they do not make a judgement. SHRUG





> I do not believe that anyone should be pronounced by the media, or political parties, as an abhorrent individual that is guilty of a crime based upon a lack of provable facts.


I suggest you quit reading all news and live in a cave with out any communication with society.
BTW, all that has been in the links posted relate to allegations that need to be investigated.
It's merely uncomfortable for you thinking of possible outcomes 



> Once those facts are proven true my opinion will naturally change.


Good for you. So why the negativity about further investigations concerning the expanding allegations? 



> Accordingly, I argued in favor of Bill Clinton on the Lewinsky issue


And that relates to how you seem to argue that no further investigation be carried out with Kavanaugh?
BTW, Clinton's impeachment was a trial before Congress with punishment a possibility.
Not so with Kavanaugh. He's being reviewed for a job, not a criminal action such as lying to Congress.
There is no punishment for Kavanaugh if the allegations are supported and believed. No trial. He merely does not get the job of being a Justice on the Supreme Court.

That's an incredibly weak analogy.



> However, here you are falling into this group think mindset that Kavanaugh is guilty without the accuser supplying any proof, or without any individuals that can corroborate her version of events.


Of course you think that.
I wouldn't expect otherwise.
You are an apologist for Trump. 
I'm not. (  )



> I personally don't mind an additional FBI investigation


Glad to see you changing your mind 



> probably a Democrat stall tactic IMHO)


Probably.
Anticipating the outcome? 
I am.



> Not the same circumstances with Billy. This memorandum was published after the blue dress and DNA match became public knowledge... BTW... This is what proof looks like.


Did I mention Clinton's situation was irrelevant?
He was being tried in front of Congress.
Kavanaugh is up for a job interview 

And now he's already admitted to having a drinking problem as early as in high school lol!



> Actually, I could say the same about Democrats in Congress. I seem to recall the Democrats claiming that an FBI investigation was worthless (in relation to the Clarence Thomas hearings); because, the FBI only investigate and that they do not make a judgement. SHRUG


Sounds like you are arguing that mistakes of the past are a rationale for intentionally ignoring problems of the present.
Where's the logic in that?

Me still thinks you are a Trumpite


----------



## Johnny b

Chawbacon said:


> Here again... We are talking about a presumption of guilt, without a presentation of proof. Until the proof arrives, people should suspend labeling the individuals involved. The sad part here, is that even if the accuser and her supporting accusers are correct, if they cannot establish some concrete proof, then Lindsey Graham has shed a significant amount of doubt upon her/their version of truth.
> 
> https://www.hannity.com/media-room/...on-latest-accusation-against-brett-kavanaugh/
> (Sorry for the Hannity reference; but, the site had the most readable rendition.)
> 
> I also find it hard to believe that zero people stepped forward while these supposed atrocities were ongoing over a two year period.
> 
> Of particular note:
> 
> _"I have a difficult time believing any person would continue to go to - according to the affidavit - ten parties over a two-year period where women were routinely gang raped and not report it. I also find it curious these charges were not brought forward until 2018, two days before a confirmation vote._
> 
> _"Why would any reasonable person continue to hang around people like this? Why would any person continue to put their friends and themselves in danger? Isn't there some duty to warn others?_
> 
> _"This is outrageous, internally inconsistent, and I hope the U.S. Senate will see this for the smear campaign that it is._
> 
> _"It is outrageous to suggest that Brett Kavanaugh at any time in his life behaved this way. His life is inconsistent with any of these allegations. All women who have worked with and for Brett Kavanaugh when he was in a position of power have nothing but glowing things to say about the way he has conducted himself._ "


Your formatting needs attention.



> Here again... We are talking about a presumption of guilt, without a presentation of proof.


You're just whining. 
Of course the allegations are pointing to individuals.
That's what allegations do.
https://www.google.com/search?q=allegations&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&client=firefox-b-1
definition of allegation:


> a claim or assertion that someone has done something illegal or wrong, typically one made without proof.


You seem simply offended that allegations have been brought against a choice by Trump.
I get that.
But your argument looks silly.



> Until the proof arrives, people should suspend labeling the individuals involved.


ie. Nobody should be allowed to make allegations.
Really? 
Lots a luck with that lol!



> The sad part here, is that even if the accuser and her supporting accusers are correct, if they cannot establish some concrete proof, then Lindsey Graham has shed a significant amount of doubt upon her/their version of truth.


I wouldn't worry about Graham.
You should be worrying about what the rest of the Senate is thinking 
There are about 9 Reps up for re-election and I suspect in this close issue, the position of their constituents might be on their minds if the worst that could be exposed, still allows Kavanaugh a seat.  !

And if this issue passed the elections, Mr K just isn't likely to get that seat regardless of how compelling those allegations turn out to be.


----------



## Johnny b

Oh my goodness.
Two more allegations have popped up that need to be checked out.

* Kavanaugh questioned about, denies 2 additional accusations of assault *

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news...d-alleged-physical-sexual-assault/1437715002/



> One of the allegations, accusing Kavanaugh of assaulting a woman while drunk in 1998, was made in an anonymous letter. The other was made by a Rhode Island man who says an acquaintance of his was the victim of a sexual assault by Kavanaugh.
> 
> The accusations were relayed to the Senate Judiciary Committee, which questioned Kavanaugh. USA TODAY has not vetted these claims and it's unclear if they were ever reported to law enforcement or investigated.
> 
> ........
> 
> The letter was sent to Sen. Cory Gardner, R-Co. alleging Kavanaugh shoved a woman against a wall in Washington, D.C. while he was drunk in 1998.
> 
> The person who wrote the letter said their daughter socialized with Kavanaugh and was hanging out in a group of four in a Washington bar when the incident happened.
> 
> "Her friend was dating him, and they left the bar under the influence of alcohol," the person wrote in the letter. "They were all shocked when Brett Kavanaugh shoved her friend up against the wall very aggressively and sexually."
> 
> .......
> The letter noted there were at least four witnesses, including the author's daughter. The victim of the incident called the author's daughter and said she was "still traumatized" and decided to report it.


I think I'm starting to see a pattern


----------



## Chawbacon

Johnny, I hope that you are not deliberately reading meaning into my posts that I have not stated; because, I am not sure where our disconnect is.

I fully realize that Kavanaugh is not the subject of a judicial trial; however, people calling anyone a rapist based upon unproven allegations is simply wrong. There is a big societal problem when someone makes an allegation (for legal, or personal reasons), and then significant portions of the media and public label the accused when no supporting proof has been provided by the accuser. This is a primary tenant of the U.S. society, derived from the U.S. Constitution, _that anyone accused of a crime is innocent until proven guilty_; however, while this particular subject is not a criminal trial, the underlying tenant of Jurisprudence remains.

I have no problem with the accusations, or subsequent investigations; but, I do believe that the the media and the general public need to reserve judgement (regardless of the accusation) until at least some proof has been established. At the same time, I find the timing and dribbling out of the allegations to be a planned political tactic, which we will have to wait and see what the political consequences are (possibly brilliant, possibly suicidal). But, I have to wonder, how many allegations do we have to investigate for Kavanaugh? Where do the allegations end? Do we continue to investigate every future accusation in perpetuity? If so, do the Democrats realize that the shoe will be on the other foot one day in the future, and we all know what payback is.... Well, Republicans will have to grow a spine before then.

At this point I am waiting for the Democrats to accuse Kavanaugh of being a dog killer; after all, a lot of people still hate and are unwilling to forgive Michael Vick for his past dog fighting activities, even after he paid his debt to society.


----------



## Johnny b

Chawbacon said:


> Johnny, I hope that you are not deliberately reading meaning into my posts that I have not stated; because, I am not sure where our disconnect is.
> 
> I fully realize that Kavanaugh is not the subject of a judicial trial; however, people calling anyone a rapist based upon unproven allegations is simply wrong. There is a big societal problem when someone makes an allegation (for legal, or personal reasons), and then significant portions of the media and public label the accused when no supporting proof has been provided by the accuser. This is a primary tenant of the U.S. society, derived from the U.S. Constitution, _that anyone accused of a crime is innocent until proven guilty_; however, while this particular subject is not a criminal trial, the underlying tenant of Jurisprudence remains.
> 
> I have no problem with the accusations, or subsequent investigations; but, I do believe that the the media and the general public need to reserve judgement (regardless of the accusation) until at least some proof has been established. At the same time, I find the timing and dribbling out of the allegations to be a planned political tactic, which we will have to wait and see what the political consequences are (possibly brilliant, possibly suicidal). But, I have to wonder, how many allegations do we have to investigate for Kavanaugh? Where do the allegations end? Do we continue to investigate every future accusation in perpetuity? If so, do the Democrats realize that the shoe will be on the other foot one day in the future, and we all know what payback is.... Well, Republicans will have to grow a spine before then.
> 
> At this point I am waiting for the Democrats to accuse Kavanaugh of being a dog killer; after all, a lot of people still hate and are unwilling to forgive Michael Vick for his past dog fighting activities, even after he paid his debt to society.





> I fully realize that Kavanaugh is not the subject of a judicial trial; however, people calling anyone a rapist based upon unproven allegations is simply wrong.


This is an interesting attitude you're taking.
It appears it upsets you to read of someone making a claim of wrong doing against themself when politics is a side issue.
There is certainly nothing I can do to alleviate your mental stress over this.
That is one of the claims by alleged victims concerning Kavanaugh, some of his friends and sadly prevalent in elements of our society.
It's obviously wrong that this type of behavior occurs and even worse to cover it up for those that perceive social privilege beyond our moral and ethical codes.
Correction will not likely occur with your argument to cover up these extended perverted privileges.



> There is a big societal problem when someone makes an allegation (for legal, or personal reasons),


Of course there is. A perpetrator with a high standing runs the risk of exposure.
For malicious accusations with out merit, libel laws exist.
Our system of laws isn't perfect, but it better serves our society than your argument of prohibiting victims from speaking out. That appears to be a Trumptonian model of social control, imo.



> This is a primary tenant of the U.S. society, derived from the U.S. Constitution, _that anyone accused of a crime is innocent until proven guilty_


IMO, you are confused.
The concept and context of 'guilt' you are referring to exists as a legal term where a court has determined an issue of guilt or innocence.
There is no such concept occurring with Kavanaugh.
Allegations have been made concerning an individual seeking a job, that has importance to individual freedoms. Those allegations go to the character and moral/ethical codes of that individual and can have serious negative impacts on our safety and freedoms.
If the accusations are believable, and the only way to determine that is to investigate, then he's unfit for the job.
This seems both simple and practical.
The only reason I can surmise your opposition is politics.
Trump, a man with issues as has been pointed out many times, is backing a dubious job applicant. It's not the first time, either.



> But, I have to wonder, how many allegations do we have to investigate for Kavanaugh?


LOL!
Well, that says a lot of the issue, now, doesn't it 



> Where do the allegations end? Do we continue to investigate every future accusation in perpetuity?


Enough to make a decision 
But really, now, Jack. Just one instance could do that.
But your argument is to ignore the problem and make a decision on limited considerations. 
Apparently the potential issue of culpability is a problem for you and like minded Trumptonians.



> I have no problem with the accusations, or subsequent investigations


Hmmmm. (  )
In other words, your previous posts were all about nothing? lol!



> At this point I am waiting for the Democrats to accuse Kavanaugh of being a dog killer; after all, a lot of people still hate and are unwilling to forgive Michael Vick for his past dog fighting activities, even after he paid his debt to society.


That's an interesting comment.
A bit too much drama, imo.
Do you think Vick would be an acceptable candidate for a Supreme Court Justice after all that? (that was rhetorical btw  )


----------



## Johnny b

What a mess.

* Ahead of pivotal Senate hearing, witnesses surface to say Christine Ford may have mistaken them for Kavanaugh *

http://www.foxnews.com/politics/201...ord-may-have-mistaken-them-for-kavanaugh.html

If a thorough investigation does occur, it seems possible the mid term elections could come and go before a decision is made on Kavanaugh.
Now there are needed investigations on allegations that contradict allegations that need to be investigated.

All this could have been avoided with a thorough FBI background check, to start with.


----------



## Johnny b

Back to Trump 
Of him there is no question lol!

* Trump claims he rejected a meeting with Trudeau over NAFTA - but Canada says it never asked to meet *

https://www.cnbc.com/2018/09/26/trump-i-rejected-a-meeting-with-canadas-trudeau.html



> President Donald Trump claimed Wednesday that he rejected a meeting with Canadian Prime Minister Justin Trudeau this week as the countries struggle to reach a new trade deal.
> 
> However, "no meeting was requested" by the Canadian government, Trudeau spokeswoman Eleanore Catenaro said.


----------



## Littlefield

Julie Swetnick the college girl who had a knack for finding wild high school parties looked a little rough on HBO’s The Circus. LOL


----------



## Johnny b

Littlefield said:


> Julie Swetnick the college girl who had a knack for finding wild high school parties looked a little rough on HBO's The Circus. LOL


If this is what you're referring to, I don't see it.






Her credibility is probably more suspect from the lawyer she's using than her appearance.
A guy claiming he's going to run for president and is probably looking more for political attention than fact finding.
Whether truthful or not, I doubt she'll be taken seriously with out further corroboration.

But you never know. Stranger things have happened in politics


----------



## Littlefield

Got to love the big hoop earrings on a show called The Circus. LMAO.


----------



## Johnny b

Littlefield said:


> Got to love the big hoop earrings on a show called The Circus. LMAO.


I take it you're more comfortable with less? ( snicker )


----------



## Littlefield

Guess I just notice details since I am into photography.


----------



## Lanctus

She doesn't look rough. She looks like a woman of her age and complexion normally looks.


----------



## Littlefield

Yea, not much makeup and just wanting to look her plain best for The Circus. LOL


----------



## Lanctus

Littlefield said:


> Yea, no makeup much and just wanting to look her plain best for The Circus. LOL


Would you think better of her if she was decked out in makeup and expensive clothes? Does she need to be groomed like a show horse? Do you make the same remarks regarding the judge and Senate men? Several of them look like drunken ghouls, but I don't hear your same standards about them.


----------



## Johnny b

Littlefield said:


> Guess I just notice details since I am into photography.


So, you judge women on their appearance.

What did you find offensive about the earrings other than their size?

Is there something wrong with her appearance in the photo you posted?










Something a person that isn't a photographer, wouldn't immediately recognize?


----------



## Littlefield

Guess you did not get I thought the last photo was well done and she looked nice. Too bad she is a publicity whore


----------



## Johnny b

Littlefield said:


> Guess you did not get I thought the last photo was well done and she looked nice. Too bad she is a publicity whore.


I'm not understanding much beyond ......you judge her worth on the size of her earrings .
IMO, her choice of a lawyer is a bigger detractor.


----------



## Littlefield

Her credibility is laughable now going on The Circus. LOL


----------



## Johnny b

Littlefield said:


> Her credibility is laughable now going on The Circus. LOL


Those big earrings 

This is like an Alex Jones moment LOL!


----------



## Johnny b

Littlefield said:


> ................................... Too bad she is a publicity whore


If a short youtube video makes her a publicity whore, what do all the Kavanaugh commercials on TV make Kavanaugh?
The job is not open to a public vote.


----------



## Lanctus

Littlefield said:


> Her credibility is laughable now going on The Circus. LOL


I notice you haven't answered any of my questions.


----------



## Johnny b

Normally I don't like youtube videos for discussion, but this is an interview with Liz Swisher, a Yale classmate of Kavanaugh.
It goes to his character and his ability to lie under oath.






Kavanaugh has a problem with alcohol and lied about it.

edit: and Liz Swisher has no large hoop earrings. (  )


----------



## bomb #21

It's entirely possible she does have large hoop earrings but simply chose not to wear them for that particular interview.

(shades of candidate Trump's "Look at that face. Would anyone vote for that?")

I'm surprised this is still going on. Surely the logical thing for Mr K to do is to withdraw. Retire from working entirely, even. So that he can devote all his time to addressing the whole "my family's been totally and permanently destroyed" scenario.

Rolleyes, whiny baby is whiny.


----------



## valis

of COURSE it is the logical thing.

We elected Trump. As I said earlier, we Americans are not reknowned for that particular skill.


----------



## Johnny b

It's already starting to look like a white-wash.

( I didn't expect much to start with )

*FBI's Kavanaugh investigation narrow in scope *
https://www.cnn.com/2018/09/30/politics/fbi-brett-kavanaugh-investigation/index.html



> A source with knowledge of the investigation told CNN that the FBI would take its direction from the White House, not the Senate, and that the agency would interview a handful of people.
> Kavanaugh's drinking history, the source said, which has come up in the allegations, is not part of the probe, which was being managed by the FBI's security division at the agency's headquarters in Washington.


Interpretation: No newly found sources to the allegations against Kavanaugh will be considered in the investigation and the main cause of the allegations ( alleged drunkenness ) can not be inquired about.

This will be a stain for the history books.


----------



## Johnny b

* Kellyanne Conway says she is a victim of sexual assault *

https://abcnews.go.com/Politics/kellyanne-conway-victim-sexual-assault/story?id=58187504

IMO, it's interesting to see an individual that claims that lies are 'alternative facts', inject a statement of personal experience comparable to the alleged abuse by Kavanaugh.
She is not a 'Dr. Ford' with an upstanding reputation for expressing the truth.
So how believable would she be infront of an investigation?

This was posted as one of her quotes to the subject of being a victim: 


> "I'm a victim of sexual assault. I don't expect Judge Kavanaugh or Jake Tapper or Jeff Flake or anybody to be held responsible for that. *You* have to be responsible for *your* own conduct," she said.


"You" or 'They"? That is the question.
Responsibility for assault falls on the perpetrator, not the victim.

Except in the Trump/Kellyanne universe. 
There, it appears to be a political issue.


----------



## Lanctus

Johnny-be-Good said:


> * Kellyanne Conway says she is a victim of sexual assault *
> 
> https://abcnews.go.com/Politics/kellyanne-conway-victim-sexual-assault/story?id=58187504
> 
> IMO, it's interesting to see an individual that claims that lies are 'alternative facts', inject a statement of personal experience comparable to the alleged abuse by Kavanaugh.
> She is not a 'Dr. Ford' with an upstanding reputation for expressing the truth.
> So how believable would she be infront of an investigation?
> 
> This was posted as one of her quotes to the subject of being a victim:
> 
> "You" or 'They"? That is the question.
> Responsibility for assault falls on the perpetrator, not the victim.
> 
> Except in the Trump/Kellyanne universe.
> There, it appears to be a political issue.


Wow. I just...wow. I only bring this part up because of the gross discrepancy coming out of Conway's mouth. I was sexually assaulted (molested) as a child. The only thing I did that invited such abuse was being a young kid. According to her "logic", a 7 year old should be responsible for their own sexual conduct? A child is to blame instead of the attacker? What kind of twisted country is this that seeks to blame the victim of abuse? I never reported it (I was 7), and my parents did nothing about it (they knew). So who gets the blame here, the victim, the attacker, or the parents that let it slide?

This country is becoming more and more corrupt.


----------



## Johnny b

Lanctus said:


> ...................
> 
> This country is becoming more and more corrupt.


Indeed.

I remember a time when the concept 'the end justifies the means' was used as a Communist slogan to rationalize using immoral extremes to get positive results.

Now it appears it's the motto of Trump, his associates and like minded supporters.
Even evangelicals seem to have latched on.


----------



## Wino

This is scary to even consider - in discussing Kavanaugh:



> Still, Trump did get one thing right - about his own drinking habits.
> "I'm not a drinker. I can honestly say I never had a beer in my life, okay. It's one of my only good traits. I don't drink," Trump said.* "Can you imagine if I had, what a mess I'd be? I would be the world's worst."*
> Indeed, there is no evidence that the president has ever indulged in a drink.


Let us hope he never falls off the wagon!!! I wouldn't think he could get worse, but I may be wrong. Personally, I don't trust anyone that doesn't drink and doesn't like dogs.


----------



## RT

Wino said:


> Personally, I don't trust anyone that doesn't drink and doesn't like dogs.


----------



## Johnny b

Trump doesn't need to be inebriated to be confused, aggressive and insulting.
At a Rose Garden press conference:

* Trump insults female reporter: 'You're not thinking. You never do' *

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news...rter-cecilia-vega-you-never-think/1493105002/

Even the White House transcript was altered to make Trump 'look good'.

IMO, these are the actions of a wanna-be tyrant.


----------



## RT

said i wasn't going to get involved in all this,
but I really didn't get any sleep, so am a grumpy, crotchety old guy this morn...
so let me just say this...
Thinking about Trump for more than a few seconds just makes me want to puke.
so there.


And a very good morning to you all!


----------



## Wino

RT, I feel your pain. Turnip is truly a repulsive nauseating human. Since TSG is a PG site, all I can say is that he's better than any laxative on the market and I'll probably have ulcers by the time he is perp walked. I continue to detest GWB for the damage he did to our nation and will never forgive him. It's difficult to accept the nation elected so vile a person as Turnip. He is truly a stain on this nation and his policies (foreign & domestic) will take generations to correct, if ever. I NEVER thought or even considered that this nation would become the laughing stock of the world.
In 20 days early voting starts in Texas. I'm hopeful we have one new senator when it's all over, but Texas has a propensity to elect right wing idiots that will vote against their constituents best interest, except when it comes to guns. It sucks to be a blue dot in a sea of red.


----------



## RT

Mr Wino, I feel we're on the same page.
I said I wasn't going to get involved in a political discussion, and I'll not get involved in religion either.

Obviously, I have just broken one of my own rules 
However, You have definite opinions, which seem to reflect mine. You are well spoken, my friend!
Hmm,
for now I'll just raise a glass in your general direction, til I break my own rules next time


----------



## Wino

.........................don't get me started on religion!!!


----------



## Johnny b

I seem to remember this being considered the 'kiss of death' for a close Trump associate.

* President Trump on Supreme Court nominee Brett Kavanaugh: 'I don't even know him' *

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news...rett-kavanaugh-dont-even-know-him/1505741002/



> "I don't even know him," Trump said of Kavanaugh, whose confirmation is on hold pending an FBI background investigation requested by Senate Republicans. "I met him for the first time a few weeks ago...So it's not like, oh, gee, I want to protect my friend."


Don't legal problems usually commence after one of those Trumptonian statements?

And after all those glowing endorsements


(  )


----------



## Wino

Kavanaugh is a partisan hack, unstable, vindictive, narrow minded religious zealot - about the last thing we need as a justice on the SCOTUS. If he is not approved, there will be another RW minion selected, and there is nothing that can be done to prevent - UNLESS Dems take the Senate next month. Hopefully, both Houses, so a strait jacket can be applied to POTUS.


----------



## Wino

My Trump Derangement is in full bloom today as I await my test cell phone national emergency message from the Grand Puke. If ever there was a prez that would ABUSE the system, this orange blob would be it. I can only imagine the "emergency" calls we'll all be getting for a week before Nov. 6, 2018.


----------



## Johnny b

Wino said:


> Kavanaugh is a partisan hack, unstable, vindictive, narrow minded religious zealot - about the last thing we need as a justice on the SCOTUS. If he is not approved, there will be another RW minion selected, and there is nothing that can be done to prevent - UNLESS Dems take the Senate next month. Hopefully, both Houses, so a strait jacket can be applied to POTUS.


Kavanaugh's reputation has taken such a turn for the worse and the general public is aware of it, I suspect his nomination will be withdrawn.

I think there should be an FBI investigation of those Senators that supported Kavanaugh to sort out who knew of his disreputable past and sought to hide it during conformation hearings.

As far as the Dems go, just another group of politicians looking to regain lost power.


----------



## Johnny b

Wino said:


> ...................... I can only imagine the "emergency" calls we'll all be getting for a week before Nov. 6, 2018.


LOL!

Indeed


----------



## Lanctus

VERY interesting article from the New York Times that just came out. The clothes of the Emperor are not his own.
https://www.nytimes.com/2018/10/02/insider/donald-trump-fred-tax-schemes-wealth.html


----------



## Johnny b

Very interesting.

This should be considered an impeachment moment by most US citizens.


----------



## Lanctus

Johnny-be-Good said:


> Very interesting.
> 
> This should be considered an impeachment moment by most US citizens.


Notice how *he doesn't say* that 97% of their stories are untrue, but that "97% of their stories on me are bad".
https://www.yahoo.com/news/trump-responds-times-tax-bombshell-97-stories-bad-142449997.html


----------



## Johnny b

Lanctus said:


> Notice how *he doesn't say* that 97% of their stories are untrue, but that "97% of their stories on me are bad".
> https://www.yahoo.com/news/trump-responds-times-tax-bombshell-97-stories-bad-142449997.html


There simply isn't much good to be said about Trump.

There will be those that don't comprehend the meaning of words and think it's a positive statement of himself and a negative of the reporting.


----------



## Lanctus

Trumpster has experienced very few consequences for his behavior over his life. Just look at his entitled history, and all the money he got from his dad. He's a child tyrant, throwing tantrums. I've never seen or heard him take responsibility for anything he's failed at (and historically there are MANY). Regardless of the November results, history already remembers him as an uneducated, insecure, clownish imbecile. Each day as he sticks his foot further into his mouth, the world jots each note down in the history books. His memory will certainly not be kind about him. After all, with over 5,000 recorded (and proven) lies uttered from his maw, to the way he disgraces women, the disabled, anyone he doesn't like, and his love for white supremacists, his name will be a dark stain on our history for decades to come. I'm good with that.


----------



## Johnny b

Looks like the press and the public are going to be restricted from seeing elements of the FBI report on Kavanaugh:

* Republicans plan careful steps to protect secrecy of FBI report on Brett Kavanaugh *

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news...-one-copy-safeguarded-republicans/1509040002/


----------



## Lanctus

Johnny-be-Good said:


> Looks like the press and the public are going to be restricted from seeing elements of the FBI report on Kavanaugh:
> 
> * Republicans plan careful steps to protect secrecy of FBI report on Brett Kavanaugh *
> 
> https://www.usatoday.com/story/news...-one-copy-safeguarded-republicans/1509040002/


This feels like Trumpster not releasing his tax reports. Why go to great lengths (ahead of the report) to stifle it? I trust no one in politics anymore.


----------



## Johnny b

* FBI finishes Kavanaugh investigation as Senate sets up procedural vote *

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news...h-fbi-probe-could-completed-today/1507799002/



> "This evening, the Senate will receive the results of the FBI's supplemental background investigation of Judge Brett Kavanaugh," McConnell said on the floor. "This is now the seventh time the FBI has looked into Judge Kavanaugh's background. And this information comes on top of what has already been one of the most thorough and most exhaustive Senate reviews of any Supreme Court nominee in the entire history of our country."


This simply isn't true.
There wouldn't have been a 7th if the first 6 had been all encompassing. With the investigation ending early, leads restricted, several major accusers not interviewed, claims by secret identities that have been refuted, and now the 'plan' is for the report on the investigation into the background of a potential Supreme Court Justice to be kept secret .
The 7th obviously falls short.


----------



## Johnny b

Hell NO ....We won't Glow??

* Experts say Trump's EPA moving to loosen radiation limits *

https://www.washingtonpost.com/poli...ffaf6d422aa_story.html?utm_term=.6d90d85144ab



> The EPA is pursuing rule changes that experts say would weaken the way radiation exposure is regulated, turning to scientific outliers who argue that a bit of radiation damage is actually good for you - like a little bit of sunlight.
> 
> The government's current, decades-old guidance says that any exposure to harmful radiation is a cancer risk. And critics say the proposed change could lead to higher levels of exposure for workers at nuclear installations and oil and gas drilling sites, medical workers doing X-rays and CT scans, people living next to Superfund sites and any members of the public who one day might find themselves exposed to a radiation release.


Make America Great?
3rd World here we come.


----------



## Johnny b

3rd World justice, here we come.

* GOP leaders, White House says Kavanaugh report shows no wrongdoing; Democrats say FBI's hands tied *

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news...naughs-fbi-report-released-senate/1514879002/

Trump:


> "I could stand in the middle of 5th Avenue and shoot somebody and wouldn't lose any voters, ok? It's, like, incredible."


Incredible that our society has degraded to the point even evangelicals support his mentality. And now it appears he'll have the courts to back it.

Some of his Congressional supporters ought to rethink what the Rohm Purge was all about


----------



## Chawbacon

Hey there guys. Been busy with work; so, just a few comments on the most recent posts. 



Wino said:


> Kavanaugh is a partisan hack, unstable, vindictive, narrow minded religious zealot - about the last thing we need as a justice on the SCOTUS.


I am truly pleased to see a somewhat intellectually honest objection to Kavanaugh in this thread, with presumptions based upon Kavanaugh's perceived political views; however, I would like to better understand how you came to the conclusion that Kavanaugh is "unstable" and "vindictive."



Wino said:


> My Trump Derangement is in full bloom today as I await my test cell phone national emergency message from the Grand Puke. If ever there was a prez that would ABUSE the system, this orange blob would be it. I can only imagine the "emergency" calls we'll all be getting for a week before Nov. 6, 2018.


Please understand that contrary to the alert title of "Presidential Alert," these alerts will not be sent by President Trump himself. President Trump may have to authorize the alert; but, the alert process begins after FEMA identifies that an alert is needed, FEMA then consults with the pertinent government agencies affected by the alert, and will then use predefined templates (which may need some adjustment to address the current situation) to send the alert in question out to the masses.

All that being said, IF, we see a Presidential Alert for something that is a non-emergency situation, I will fully back Wino's opinion here. 



Johnny-be-Good said:


> Kavanaugh's reputation has taken such a turn for the worse and the general public is aware of it, I suspect his nomination will be withdrawn.


Not a chance of withdrawal. In fact, I heard one news agency speculate that if the Kavanaugh vote is unsuccessful, President Trump could renominate Kavanaugh and appeal the decision to the American voters pending the midterm election results. I am not sure of the legality on that course of action; but, it would be interesting historical first (as far as I know).


----------



## Johnny b

Chawbacon said:


> .........................
> 
> Not a chance of withdrawal. In fact, I heard one news agency speculate that if the Kavanaugh vote is unsuccessful, President Trump could renominate Kavanaugh and appeal the decision to the American voters pending the midterm election results. I am not sure of the legality on that course of action; but, it would be interesting historical first (as far as I know).


With today's commentary about the FBI findings, I agree.

 News agencies. They all speculate to advance their own biases and agendas 
That's why I tend to avoid opinion articles and op eds
Look for authoritative sources. Like constitutional lawyers.



> and appeal the decision to the American voters pending the midterm election results. I am not sure of the legality on that course of action; but, it would be interesting historical first (as far as I know)


Doubtful.


----------



## Lanctus

Do republicans really think that no moderate or left-leaning voters carry weapons? Making threats to kill those who don't agree with you seems to be a hallmark of trumpster fire's core base. Not only threatening Senators who don't vote for Kavanaugh, but also law enforcement that may respond to your threats? This is the type of person drawn to trumpster, and only reinforces the resolve to vote, and get everyone I know to do the same. May he never get out of jail.
https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/crim...against-brett-kavanaugh/ar-BBNXYog?li=BBnbfcL


----------



## bomb #21

"Retired Supreme Court Justice John Paul Stevens said Supreme Court nominee Brett Kavanaugh does not belong on the nation's highest court".

Republican, apparently.

ION, 45 tweeted about "very rude" protesters. That would be the same 45 who publicly referred to NFL kneelers as SOBS.

Spotted a pic of 2 middle-agers with "I stand with Brett" signs. There was a comment "shouldn't that be 'I lie with Brett'?". So that was witty. "Drinking game" indeed.


----------



## Littlefield

I doubt this outside her Senate offices in Portland helped Sen. Collins getting her to vote no. LOL








​


----------



## Lanctus

Maine is a reliable swing state. Considering she is up for reelection in 2020, her state (and the women) will remember her vote, and they will reflect that.


----------



## Chawbacon

Lanctus said:


> Do republicans really think that no moderate or left-leaning voters carry weapons? Making threats to kill those who don't agree with you seems to be a hallmark of trumpster fire's core base. Not only threatening Senators who don't vote for Kavanaugh, but also law enforcement that may respond to your threats? This is the type of person drawn to trumpster, and only reinforces the resolve to vote, and get everyone I know to do the same. May he never get out of jail.
> https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/crim...against-brett-kavanaugh/ar-BBNXYog?li=BBnbfcL


Truly, a very disturbed person who need to be behind bars and heavily medicated.

To be honest on both sides though, the same could be said about the Trump hater (James Hodgkinson) who shot up the Republican charity baseball practice.

All people with this type of evil intent are a blight on on the planet.


----------



## valis

and yet we elected one.


----------



## Johnny b

valis said:


> and yet we elected one.


Agreed.

This path isn't new in history, and yet it gets repeated through out it.


----------



## valis

and we never freaking learn.


----------



## Johnny b

Chawbacon said:


> Truly, a very disturbed person who need to be behind bars and heavily medicated.
> 
> To be honest on both sides though, the same could be said about the Trump hater (James Hodgkinson) who shot up the Republican charity baseball practice.
> 
> All people with this type of evil intent are a blight on on the planet.


You are assuming there are only two sides.
Lanctus referred to moderate and left leaning voters.
The issue of violence does not reside with moderate Republicans or moderate Democrats.
It resides in the extremes, the radicals that identify with the fringe elements of both political ideologies.

Hodgkinson was not even a Clinton supporter. He supported Sanders.
While Sanders has been associated with the Democrat Party of recent, he's been more affiliated with the Liberty Union Party in the past.
These are hard core socialists.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liberty_Union_Party

And it is noted in that link that Sanders left the LUP to go Independent because:


> At the time of his resignation from the party in October 1977, he was party chairman.[9] Sanders quit due to the inactivity of the party between elections.[10]


Just as radical elements of Republican party have embraced an opportunistic fascist real estate developer that draws the attention and support from violent radicals, so do radical elements of the Democrat party support socialism and express violence in support of it. Such as Antifa.

As valis points out, correctly, it's the general public that chooses these examples in the primaries and elections. 'We' wind up getting no more than what we deserve. It's been 'our' choice.

And when ignorance abounds (  ) 'we' don't get much of value out of the system.


----------



## Johnny b

Probably far from being complete, a list of domestic terrorism and the groups behind them:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Domestic_terrorism_in_the_United_States


----------



## bomb #21

On Tuesday 45 stated "Somebody could accuse you of something and you're automatically guilty".

Within days he stated that a couple of "elevator screamers" were "paid professionals". He didn't clarify that "oh, that thing I said the other day, the somebody I referred to was/is me".

The only thing necessary for the continuation of trump is that sufficient sycophants keep giving him a pass. So much for checks and balances.


----------



## bomb #21

Of course we're *not* all equal. Example: I don't have a degree. I even dropped out of "high school". So, many folks are way smarter than me. But one thing that does grind my gears is, boasting. "Fortunately" I was there at just the moment when the self-proclaimed genius ... well, can you spot it?

(I'm not even American)


----------



## Johnny b

As bad as Kavanaugh's seating is and it's implications, I suspect the political conflict will only intensify if/when radical right wingers are replaced by reactionary left wingers that do as Trump has done with Obama's legislation, and undo Trump.

Think I'm going to sit this out now. I don't see much positive either way.

Wasn't worth the effort I put into arguing about GW Bush. 
Several of you guys probably probably know me....Paq certainly does now 

I've argued against the middle east policies of GW Bush.
The socialism of Obama.
Of legalizing pot (  )
I've even argued against a lefty by the screen name of 'Mick Jagger', learned the conservatives here didn't have a clue as to what the 2nd Amendment meant any more than that lefty LOL! 

I think our society has just about finished it's tour swirling down a giant toilet and it's everyone out for themselves 

My political views haven't changed. I just don't care what the audience is thinking anymore LOL!

Sooooo...this is my last post about national politics 


Live long and prosper.
( if you are allowed to  )


----------



## valis

Last post about politics? I will believe that roughly a month after pigs grow wings.

And twas you and I that went round about the pot legalisation.

IMHO you are both too intelligent and too invested in our country (which is indeed swirling down the toilet) to give it up.

That said, I aint you. I can only see you from the outside and Lord that is bad enough.


----------



## Johnny b

Observation from a safe distance is my new motto


----------



## valis

Uh huh. And if I buy that, I am guessing you have some beachfront property in Wichita I should look into, correct?


----------



## Johnny b

Actually, beach front in the Rockies just west of Denver. 

Lanmaster should have taken me seriously lol!


----------



## valis

LOL!


----------



## bomb #21

D Trump has said his daughter would be “incredible” as a replacement for Nikki Haley as the US ambassador to the UN – but that he can “already hear the chants of nepotism”.

Gotta be honest. It pains me to say so but, I'm a tiny bit impressed he knows the word "nepotism".


----------



## Lanctus

bomb #21 said:


> D Trump has said his daughter would be "incredible" as a replacement for Nikki Haley as the US ambassador to the UN - but that he can "already hear the chants of nepotism".
> 
> Gotta be honest. It pains me to say so but, I'm a tiny bit impressed he knows the word "nepotism".


If only he could look up the word illiterate.


----------



## Chawbacon

*"Trump's list: 289 accomplishments in just 20 months, 'relentless' promise-keeping"*
https://www.washingtonexaminer.com/...-in-just-20-months-relentless-promise-keeping

So there have been a few achievements by Trump after all? Who would of guessed?

Happy reading. 


> Economic Growth
> 
> 4.2 percent growth in the second quarter of 2018.
> For the first time in more than a decade, growth is projected to exceed 3 percent over the calendar year.


----------



## Johnny b

Now convince the 20,000 Ford workers about to be laid off.


----------



## Johnny b

BTW, it's proper etiquette to post a link and a short summary when quoting an article.

Also btw......tldr....... 



(edit...darn keyboard )


----------



## Chawbacon

Johnny b said:


> Now convince the 20,000 Ford workers about to be laid off.


Yep! I hear you loud and clear.

The road that President Trump has traveled (and is following) has many bumps and significant potholes; however, that road is not a drive off the cliff as we are normally led to believe. The list is really meant to show that many accomplishments are being achieved by the Trump administration and that those accomplishments are significantly under reported to the American public.


----------



## Johnny b

Chawbacon said:


> Yep! I hear you loud and clear.
> 
> The road that President Trump has traveled (and is following) has many bumps and significant potholes; however, that road is not a drive off the cliff as we are normally led to believe. The list is really meant to show that many accomplishments are being achieved by the Trump administration and that those accomplishments are significantly under reported to the American public.


All any one has to do is wait 3 or 4 days for a published itemized rebuttal.


----------



## Chawbacon

Johnny b said:


> BYW, it's proper etiquette to post a link and a short summary when quoting an article.
> 
> Also btw......tldr.......


Yeah, I felt bad about that too. I wanted to use a summation; unfortunately, the Washington Examiner has way too many advertisements that often results in a continuous load loop. Wanted to save everyone that headache.


----------



## Johnny b

No Problem, I Probably wouldn't have read it either, anyway


----------



## Johnny b

Chewey, those lists pop up from time to time, that's not the first and won't be the last.
And there's usually a rebuttal somewhere, following shortly.


----------



## Chawbacon

Very true. And a portion of the identified _accomplishments_ are only accomplishments when viewed through a specific political lens.


----------



## bomb #21

Johnny b said:


> All any one has to do is wait 3 or 4 days for a published itemized rebuttal.


Funny.


----------



## bomb #21

Chawbacon said:


> Yeah, I felt bad about that too. I wanted to use a summation; unfortunately, the Washington Examiner has way too many ...


bogus "achievements", duplications, continuations from previous admin(s), whatev. Official "Trump Administration Accomplishments" page has 50-something, & even that lists "kept Gitmo open". That must've taken a lot of effort. 

https://www.whitehouse.gov/trump-administration-accomplishments/


----------



## Johnny b

And now comments on the state of the US's financial responsibilities:

* The national debt and the federal deficit are skyrocketing. How it impacts you. *

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news...ral-debt-deficit-impact-americans/1589889002/



> The deficit hit $779 billion in the fiscal year that ended Sept. 30 because tax revenues are not keeping pace with government spending, the Treasury Department announced Monday. That's a 17 percent increase over the previous year - the highest deficit in six years.
> .................
> Treasury Secretary Steven Mnuchin suggested that the rising deficit was the result of "irresponsible and unnecessary spending." But a separate report released earlier this month by the nonpartisan Congressional Budget Office said the jump was fueled in part by the tax cuts Congress approved last year.
> .............................
> As for the national debt, it continues to climb at a staggering pace. Right now, it's more than $21 trillion
> ......................
> In 2000, the federal government had a surplus of $236 billion and the national debt was less than $6 trillion, according to the Treasury Department.
> .........................
> Interest on U.S. debt is projected to total $7 trillion over the next decade and, by 2026, will become the third largest category of the federal budget


Spend it while you got it because it isn't going to be worth much in the future 

3rd world here we come.


----------



## Wino

Deficits are only important when a lefty is POTUS. Bush torpedoed the national debt ship; Obama did his best to salvage with little to no help from the opposition; and the Orange Stain will probably send it to the bottom of the Mariana Trench depths. Sad.


----------



## Johnny b

IMO, most politicians are now out to over spend, just different agendas.


----------



## Wino

I most definitely agree about spending, but you don't cut your sources of funding by cutting taxes for those than can afford paying them, i.e. corporations and 2%'ers. The rights goal is to end SS, Medicare or any safety net program, be it welfare or VA related.


----------



## Johnny b

Wino said:


> I most definitely agree about spending, but you don't cut your sources of funding by cutting taxes for those than can afford paying them, i.e. corporations and 2%'ers. The rights goal is to end SS, Medicare or any safety net program, be it welfare or VA related.


The Trump cuts in services are to appease the Tea and Libertarian elements.
It eliminates one of the main purposes of a government, that being to protect it's society.
The less protection, the greater the abuses that enhance the status of those Tea and Libertarian elements.
It's not rocket science.

A while ago, I read Ron Paul's Liberty Defined.
Never could find his definition of it.
But I remember one small paragraph where he commented he didn't trust a democratic form of government, but preferred an Intellectual Autocracy.

I have often wondered how many people that read that book and supported his politics, not knowing what the term meant.

https://legaldictionary.net/autocracy/

Essentially, 'you' are too stupid to to decide your own future. 'Someone' needs to do it for you.

At that point, I understood better why Don Black at Stormfront was a supporter 
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Don_Black_(white_supremacist)]


> In December 2007, Black gained attention for donating money to Ron Paul's 2008 presidential run.


----------



## Johnny b

* Trump increases deportations to Mauritania, where slavery still dominates culture *

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news...nia-where-slavery-culture-remains/1649202002/



> From fiscal years 2014 to 2017, Immigration and Customs Enforcement averaged just seven deportations to Mauritania each year based on those concerns. But in 2018, the agency deported 79 people to Mauritania, and ICE says another 22 are in custody awaiting deportation.


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mauritania#Human_rights

Real Christian of him.


----------



## bomb #21

45 tweets "Great, now I can go after Horseface and her 3rd rate lawyer in the Great State of Texas."

Meanwhile, his wife continues to work on some anti-cyber bullying initiative, probably. Didn't there used to be a puking smiley?


----------



## Johnny b

bomb #21 said:


> ....................................Didn't there used to be a puking smiley?


There was one used quite a while ago, but I think it was out sourced.

If this works, just copy the code from a reply window.


----------



## Wino

Wino said:


> I most definitely agree about spending, but you don't cut your sources of funding by cutting taxes for those than can afford paying them, i.e. corporations and 2%'ers. *The rights goal is to end SS, Medicare or any safety net program*, be it welfare or VA related.


Well, that didn't take long!!

https://www.newsweek.com/deficit-bu...ecurity-medicaid-medicare-entitlement-1172941



> "It's disappointing, but it's not a Republican problem," McConnell said of the deficit, which grew 17 percent to $779 billion in fiscal year 2018............................


----------



## Johnny b

Wino said:


> Well, that didn't take long!!
> 
> https://www.newsweek.com/deficit-bu...ecurity-medicaid-medicare-entitlement-1172941


This doesn't come as a surprise to me, but I didn't expect it so close to an election.


----------



## Wino

Timing surprises me, too. I expect they expect to win big in November and can be as brazen as the wish. I certainly hope they are over confident and eat crap when it's all over. Not optimistic the electorate will see it my way.


----------



## bomb #21

steppenwolf said:


> now its "guilty until proven democrat"


_"Here we go again with you're guilty until proven innocent," Mr Trump told the Associated Press in an interview._

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/...ggi-brett-kavanaugh-accusations-a8587581.html

Funny, I don't remember 45 being so reticent over Syria air strikes.

Follow the money.
_
_


----------



## Cookiegal

Chawbacon,

I had to edit your lengthy post no. 753 as we cannot post entire articles or even too many paragraphs due to copyright laws. We can only post a link and one or two short paragraphs from the content so users have to visit the site to read the rest.


----------



## Johnny b

Trump approves of assaulting news reporters.
There is NO upside to this kind of mentality in a free society.
It's a call for violence.

* Trump praises GOP congressman who assaulted reporter: 'Any guy that can do a body slam - he's my guy.' *

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news...-bodyslammed-reporter-my-kind-guy/1690729002/


----------



## bomb #21

_"All Americans should recoil from the President's praise for a violent assault on a reporter doing his Constitutionally protected job"_, said some guy. Who is in wilful denial. Because he's surely aware that many Trump-ites probably think it's hilarious, or something. SMH.


----------



## Chawbacon

Wino said:


> I most definitely agree about spending, but you don't cut your sources of funding by cutting taxes for those than can afford paying them, i.e. corporations and 2%'ers. The rights goal is to end SS, Medicare or any safety net program, be it welfare or VA related.


I have to say that I am diametrically opposed to this viewpoint.

1st - It is a misnomer to think that corporations pay taxes. End consumers pay the taxes. Any tax, or increase due to regulatory requirements, will be built into the overall cost of the product, or service being presented to the public for purchase (if the owner/CEO is doing their job correctly). Sometimes the product price increase is obvious on the price tag; however, it is often disguised via layoffs, suspended pay increases, reduction in benefits, and reduction in product portions (Even though the box is bigger!). In full disclosure though, I do think that only corporations should pay taxes based upon consumption. Then kick the government local/state/federal out of our paychecks!

2nd - The programs listed are essential to many individuals who truly need assistance. It believe that it would be more prudent to insert modular review processes into many government programs, with a design to identify who/what help is needed for individual's to successfully gain employment and subsequently move away from government assistance.


----------



## Johnny b

> 1st - It is a misnomer to think that corporations pay taxes. Any tax, or increase due to regulatory requirements, will be built into the overall cost of the product, or service being presented to the public for purchase (if the owner/CEO is doing their job correctly).


But the reality seems to be that consumer price cuts aren't following with the corporate tax cuts.
Tax cuts have mostly improved the size of distributed profits to stock holders and/or increases in the value of the stock itself.

This is one of the reasons the stock market has risen under Trump and dividends have increased........so far.

Conceptually, corporate taxation is double taxation because the owners of the corporation ( stock holders ) have to also pay income tax on dividend distributions that were already taxed at the corporate level.
The problem is, how much of a reduction of taxation is too much?



> I do think that only corporations should pay taxes based upon consumption.


I think you are arguing for a flat tax, yes?
Highly discriminatory. Favors the wealthy too much. Puts the burden of taxation on the middle class.
The concept of taxation has no fairness, it's the only practical way to pay for the functioning of a government.
A progressive model penalizes the middle class to a lesser degree. They make less, the pay smaller tax rates. Other wise, it becomes an issue of the wealthy keeping a greater percentage of their earnings and the middle class keeping a smaller percentage of their income.



> Then kick the government local/state/federal out of our paychecks!


<yawn>
Never happen 
The funds for a government to operate will be collected one way or another, but that money will still be separated from the citizen, one way or another.



> It believe that it would be more prudent to insert modular review processes into many government programs, with a design to identify who/what help is needed for individual's to successfully gain employment and subsequently move away from government assistance.


It's not up to the government to supply jobs.
And with Trump's claims of low unemployment, unnecessary.
Improving education would be logical, but the Trump agenda appears to headed in the wrong direction.

As far as government assistance goes, don't make me laugh. It's political on all sides.
Libs feel for the impoverished to get votes.
And now Trumpians feel for the farmers who just got screwed on trade barriers. Same logic....votes.
Even Lyndsey Graham is said to have gotten concessions for industries affected by enacted tariffs, in his state. Similar logic, support of Trump.


----------



## Johnny b

Trump, his henchmen, the FCC, deregulation and the public's safety.

* Ajit Pai killed rules that could have helped Florida recover from hurricane *
https://arstechnica.com/tech-policy...d-have-helped-florida-recover-from-hurricane/

Too much to copy and paste.
But it's rather obvious, again, the Trump administration is blind as to it's duties to protect citizens in times of disaster and favors profiteering.


----------



## Chawbacon

Johnny b said:


> Trump, his henchmen, the FCC, deregulation and the public's safety.
> 
> * Ajit Pai killed rules that could have helped Florida recover from hurricane *
> https://arstechnica.com/tech-policy...d-have-helped-florida-recover-from-hurricane/
> 
> Too much to copy and paste.
> But it's rather obvious, again, the Trump administration is blind as to it's duties to protect citizens in times of disaster and favors profiteering.


I have to agree with you here Johnny.

Pondering.. Since Verizon did/does not desire to allocate resources that will restore, or that would better enable the restoration of, wireless communications in a timely manner, I wonder which competitor will come in and take over the market space.


----------



## Johnny b

A buddy of mine ( a Trump supporter <shudder> ) was bragging to me just days ago how stable the boat industry and sales were.
He buys and sells used boats.
At least he had the tense correct ( as in past tense ).

* As tariffs continue, panic beginning to sink in among Wisconsin manufacturers*
https://www.usatoday.com/story/mone...re-rattle-wisconsin-manufacturers/1700316002/


----------



## bomb #21

The "President", w/r/t State-sponsored murder of a journalist (& referencing back to His Supreme-ness Kavanaugh): "here we go again with the guilty until proven innocent!"

The "President" w/r/t 7,000 migrants: "this Dem-organised & funded caravan contains bad people, tough people, terrorists in fact. Sorry, what? Where's the proof? Don't be a baby!"

(contains paraphrasing)


----------



## Lanctus

Another supporter of trumpster caught red-handed (so to speak).

*Exclusive: In Leaked Audio, Brian Kemp Expresses Concern Over Georgians Exercising Their Right to Vote*

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/poli...ing-their-right-to-vote/ar-BBONcbW?li=BBnb7Kz


----------



## Chawbacon

Lanctus said:


> Another supporter of trumpster caught red-handed (so to speak).
> 
> *Exclusive: In Leaked Audio, Brian Kemp Expresses Concern Over Georgians Exercising Their Right to Vote*
> 
> https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/poli...ing-their-right-to-vote/ar-BBONcbW?li=BBnb7Kz


Caught red handed? Exactly how? A candidate expresses concern over an opponents early voting turnout and it is considered red handed? I just don't see the connection.


----------



## Lanctus

Chawbacon said:


> Caught red handed? Exactly how? A candidate expresses concern over an opponents early voting turnout and it is considered red handed? I just don't see the connection.


I take it you do not live in Georgia then. Brian Kemp has been the Georgia Secretary of State since 2012, and the top elections official in that position. Since 2012, Georgia has cut the overall number of voters by over 1 million, with a large part of that being black voters. Georgia has been a bad state for gerrymandering, by politicians who redraw their districts to help ensure re-election. However, Georgia doesn't really have a direct path of democracy for these issues. The only ways for Georgia to enact a similar system would be for the General Assembly to cede its redistricting power or for the courts to rule that redistricting for partisan purposes is unconstitutional. So far, those proposals have been dead in the water, and that's because the fox has the keys to the hen house.

In Trump's 2016 election, nearly 51% of Georgian voters voted for him. However, Republicans control nearly two-thirds of the General Assembly and every statewide office. That gives them a stranglehold on the way districts are drawn, what "map" goes to which state official, and an iron hand over voter rules and regulations. Republicans and Democrats have both been guilty of this, but the U.S. Supreme Court is the major deciding factor in those cases, if they even deem to hear them. That is a long road before arriving there.

I live in North Carolina where federal court has had to step in, sending it up to the Supreme Court. North Carolina was already forced by a 2011 Supreme Court decision to redraw its congressional districts because they were found to be illegally gerrymandering the state's maps along racial lines. The Republican-controlled legislature's solution? An explicitly partisan, but not racial, gerrymander that packed Democrats (but, ostensibly, not black North Carolinians) into as few House districts as possible. "In that case, a federal court ruled that the state's congressional districts violate the Constitution's guarantees of equal protection and freedom of speech. Republicans control 10 of North Carolina's 13 districts even though overall, GOP candidates running for Congress won just 53 percent of the vote in 2016."

https://politics.myajc.com/news/sta...ering-message-georgia/tD9SnBF6iSey2FjSYFnFSK/

In Georgia, for a state official that has sway over election and voters who also happens to be running for Georgia Governor, in a state already known for voter suppression issues, to say what he did in "private", reeks of partisianship and ongoing voter suppression. At Kemp's insistence, more than 53,000 voter applications have been suspended indefinitely. More than two-thirds of those applications were filed by black people. A lot of people in Georgia don't even know that this has happened to them. One woman, while trying to demonstrate to her college students how Georgians can verify their registration, discovered that she had been removed from the rolls, herself.

So yes, once you have a clearer image of the history and ongoing issues rife in Georgia's elections system, there is cause for alarm. Where there's smoke there's fire.


----------



## Wino

Busy week for Trumpers - KY killing black people at Krogers and sending bombs to Trump hit lists by the MAGAbomber - I expect it is going to get much worse since Turnip has released the Dogs of Hatred.


----------



## Chawbacon

Lanctus said:


> ...So yes, once you have a clearer image of the history and ongoing issues rife in Georgia's elections system, there is cause for alarm. Where there's smoke there's fire.


Yep. I am acutely aware of those concerns and I agree with gerrymandering concerns; however, a comment indicating a concern about the opposition political party's potential voter turnout on election day still does not meet the level of "caught red handed."

Just for edification, after not voting for two election cycles, it takes 7 years to be dropped off the voter rolls in GA. In the particular concern over suspended voter registrations, the vast amount of the suspension occurred due to incorrect social security numbers, followed by misspelled names, addresses, and incorrect birth dates. Per GA law, this information must match the information that is currently maintained within the DMV, or State ID card system, and is evaluated independent of race. Additionally, this does not prevent an individual from voting. The voter simply casts their vote as a provisional (possibly absentee) ballot that hopefully contains correct information, which is then matched against the DMV and State ID card systems during the vote counting process. It is an extermely misleading statement to say that voter suppression is occurring at Kemp's insistence when Kemp is simply following and enforcing the voter registration laws of GA, which is his job. Also, I seem to recall that Kemp's office was sued over this very issue several years ago (possibly the last election cycle) and the case fell flat on it's face.


----------



## Chawbacon

Wino said:


> Busy week for Trumpers - KY killing black people at Krogers and sending bombs to Trump hit lists by the MAGAbomber - I expect it is going to get much worse since Turnip has released the Dogs of Hatred.


Now Wino, come on, that is a very disingenuous way to look at things. The exact same thing can be said about Democrat leaders and their fanatics that have committed horrible acts. Remember the letters filled with ricin that were sent to Republican leaders about a month ago. 
https://www.usatoday.com/story/news...ts-trump-administration-officials/1686948002/

Fanatical individuals that harm, or attempt to harm, others should be locked away for a very long time, regardless of their purported cause. That being said, both Republicans and Democrats need to back off on the heated rhetoric, insinuating that the opposition is essentially in league with the devil. Thankfully no one was injured by these horrible acts.


----------



## Wino

That was non-toxic base from which ricin is made. You can go back in time to Tim McVeigh 1995 through today. I can match you and out number you on left vs. right atrocities - your side is leading the way, sadly.


----------



## Johnny b

Chawbacon said:


> ............... That being said, both Republicans and Democrats need to back off on the heated rhetoric, insinuating that the opposition is essentially in league with the devil. Thankfully no one was injured by these horrible acts.


I agree in principle, but the reality is that Trump leads the nation with vociferous rhetoric at heightened levels not seen in opponents.
And when I write 'leads', I also mean 'governs'.


----------



## bomb #21

So, some people got murdered. Then there was a tweet:

"All of America is in mourning over the mass murder of Jewish Americans at the Tree of Life Synagogue in Pittsburgh ..."

Now, one could say the first three words are false cos, y'know, it's a safe bet that >1 person in America hates Jews. But it's kind of a "customary" statement so, NM.

6 (six) hours later there's another tweet:

"Watching the Dodgers/Red Sox final innings. It is amazing how a manager ..."

, etc. Needless to say, there's plenty of reaction. Such as:

"Did you forget about what happened earlier?"

Or:

"Shut up, he's allowed to watch sports".

Or (even):

"I agree/disagree with your tactical critique".

Of course he IS allowed to watch sports. But the point is, there was *zero* need for the second tweet *on the same day* as the massacre since, anyone with half a brain could've predicted it would create a good deal of "you're a disrespectful jerk with no capacity for sympathy" negative feedback at the very time people are saying "we need to come together".

I'm just saying, here's a guy who's in charge of bombs displaying an immense lack of restraint. Be afraid if you like, but that won't change things.

ION, I read that self-appointed militias are planning trips to the southern border. Oh joy.


----------



## bomb #21

"With what happened early today, that horrible, horrible attack in Pittsburgh, I was saying maybe I should cancel both this and that. And then I said to myself, I remembered Dick Russell, a friend of mine, great guy, he headed up the New York Stock Exchange on September 11th, and the New York Stock Exchange was open the following day".

Three things.

1. "I said to myself" - possibly because nobody in your administration has the strength to listen/any interest in listening to you.

2. Dick Russell, friend & great guy, was an NYSE big wig? Actually, the "head of the NYSE at the time was Dick *Grasso*. Dick *Russell* was a senator from Georgia who defended segregation".

3. The exchange was closed from September 11-17.

Is POTUS a compulsive liar, or senile? Would be a prime example of a loaded question.


----------



## Johnny b

Not a fan of Trump, and I've seen/heard him lie and imo, no doubt senility an issue........but there was a Richard L Russell that was associated with the Wall St financial community,

https://www.prnewswire.com/news-releases/richard-russell-the-passing-of-an-icon-300183991.html

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Richard_Russell_(Dow_Theory)

And he wasn't a Senator nor from Georgia.


----------



## bomb #21

That one's an error by the source. If you listen to the audio, it's possible he says Grasso, not Russell.


----------



## Johnny b

* President Trump says he plans to end birthright citizenship with an executive order *

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news...right-citizenship-executive-order/1816666002/

"Make America Great Again"
What a joke.
America will only be a Third World Nation as long as it retains a Third World mentality in the leaders it elects. And that is Trump and Company.


----------



## Johnny b

"Make America Great Again"

So......think everyone is living the good life like Donald Trump?

* The Opportunity Index: Ranking Opportunity in Metropolitan America *

https://www.thirdway.org/report/the-opportunity-index-ranking-opportunity-in-metropolitan-america

Too much to copy and paste.


----------



## Wino

MAKE AMERICA GREAT AGAIN 2020
.................DUMP TRUMP......................


----------



## bomb #21

Johnny b said:


> "Make America Great Again"
> 
> So......think everyone is living the good life like Donald Trump? ...


People in sub "middle class" jobs are the backbone of any country. One of my pet peeves is people who say "if you can't make ends meet, quit whining and get a better-paid job". Imagine if you went to a restaurant and had to clean the restroom yourself. All job *rates* should be living wage minimum with the "living" part actually feasible.

[/sermon]


----------



## bomb #21

"Two weeks before voters headed to the polls, the President promised middle-class Americans another tax cut, saying it would be introduced by Congress in a week or two ... President Trump and the top Republican tax-writer in Congress conceded on Wednesday there was zero chance that middle-class Americans will see their taxes cut this year."


----------



## Johnny b

bomb #21 said:


> ................. All job *rates* should be living wage minimum with the "living" part actually feasible.
> 
> [/sermon]


I disagree.
There are job classifications oriented towards supplementing endeavors such as education, even starting out in life while living with parents.

Service work like fast food restaurants, cleaning, farm work, lawn care.

In a capitalistic economic model, they simply don't rate the value of a living wage.
To elevate them in status is to impose socialism.
And socialist economic models haven't been seen through out history as being very beneficial to their societies.

One problem in the US is that with declining education, now a conservative directive and the liberal fascination with experimentation till educational systems falter, too many entering the job market aren't worth much more than a minimum wage, and some not even that!

Simply put, an educated mind is worth more than a pair of hands to employers.


----------



## bomb #21

I disagree with much of that. New thread?


----------



## Johnny b

Do what ever you want.
Even disagree 

In a capitalistic economic model, a living wage, regardless of the work value associated with it, for everyone is a contradiction.
Arbitrarily raising wages is a contradiction.

To guarantee a living wage is a step towards socialism.



> "if you can't make ends meet, quit whining and get a better-paid job".


Yep 
That's a driving force in a society, that advances progress 
Education is key.

Currently, legalizing social participation in pot, and addictive drugs is driving the US in the wrong direction. 
Greed doesn't help, nor the whiners that are not satisfied with their station in life not interested in improving it beyond freebies.
And other stuff, I'm sure 

If I remember correctly, you are English.
I'm not, and my comments go to the situation in the US.


----------



## Chawbacon

*As Election Nears, Black Approval Rating of Trump Hits Historic High*
https://www.westernjournal.com/ct/black-approval-rating-trump-high/


> "An increasing number of black Americans have begun to reject the liberal dogma they've been force-fed for years and have, at the very least, become open-minded with regard to Trump, the Republican Party and conservatism in general....
> 
> Among likely U.S. voters who are black, some 25 percent "strongly approve" of President Trump while 54 percent "strongly disapprove." The fact that roughly a quarter of black voters "strongly approve" of a president who is routinely smeared as being a hateful racist is rather significant, but the news gets even better.
> 
> Factoring in soft approval with the strong approval, Rasmussen found that about four out of every ten likely black American voters support the president..."


Granted... this is a Rasmussen poll, and Rasmussen polls are highly criticized by liberal media; however, if Rasmussen is even halfway correct and likely black voter supporter for President Trump is only at 20%, this could indicate a concern for Democrats on election day.


----------



## bomb #21

johnny b said:


> That's a driving force in a society, that advances progress
> Education is key.


OK, IMO there's some fundamentally flawed thinking. So I'll just check ; if I hive it off will you participate?


----------



## Johnny b

bomb #21 said:


> OK, IMO there's some fundamentally flawed thinking. So I'll just check ; if I hive it off will you participate?


Like I posted, you do what you want to do.
I'll decide afterwards if I want to get involved in one of your circular rants 

If you don't think a society progresses from educated industrious citizens wanting to improve their well being, standards of living and culture......well... .....there you go.

Pot city USA is for you LOL!

Seriously, though....I can't fathom any scenario where lack of a work ethic and lack of a desire to improve one's self improves anything......but go ahead if you wish.


----------



## Chawbacon

Johnny b said:


> Seriously, though....I can't fathom any scenario where lack of a work ethic and lack of a desire to improve one's self improves anything......but go ahead if you wish.


Well... It improves the size of the wellfare roles.


----------



## Johnny b

Chawbacon said:


> *As Election Nears, Black Approval Rating of Trump Hits Historic High*
> https://www.westernjournal.com/ct/black-approval-rating-trump-high/
> 
> Granted... this is a Rasmussen poll, and Rasmussen polls are highly criticized by liberal media; however, if Rasmussen is even halfway correct and likely black voter supporter for President Trump is only at 20%, this could indicate a concern for Democrats on election day.


Just wait a few days.
Disappointment will strike one side or the other....


----------



## Johnny b

Chawbacon said:


> Well... It improves the size of the wellfare roles.


I'll leave that for bomb to respond to


----------



## bomb #21

Johnny b said:


> I'll leave that for bomb to respond to


Better education might lead to a wider understanding that there's only one "l" in "welfare".


----------



## bomb #21

Johnny b said:


> Like I posted, you do what you want to do.
> I'll decide afterwards if I want to get involved in one of your circular rants  ...


*If* that's a reference to the Kavanaugh thread ... my case was closed at post 2.


----------



## bomb #21

Maybe I missed it - have we covered the theory about POTUS amending the constitution by executive order? Despotic?

In many jobs it's standard for performance to be evaluated after a trial period. Yet the "President" continues to whinge about being treated "unfairly".


----------



## Johnny b

bomb #21 said:


> *If* that's a reference to the Kavanaugh thread ... my case was closed at post 2.


LOL!

At least


----------



## Johnny b

bomb #21 said:


> Maybe I missed it - have we covered the theory about POTUS amending the constitution by executive order? Despotic?
> .........................


It was introduced in this thread.
I know because I posted it.

https://forums.techguy.org/threads/the-trump-term-of-office.1183765/page-54#post-9552965


----------



## Johnny b

Chawbacon said:


> Well... It improves the size of the wellfare roles.


There you go. Deadly typo


----------



## Wino

Disappointing election results, but lots of good things did happen - many women and ethnics elected - some scumbags gone (Kobach of Kansas gone one notable + Scott Walker of WI) - House may be able to slow the runaway train wreck aka Trump Administration. Very disappointed Ted Cruz won, but he came close to not, but almost impossible in bright red Texas for a Dem to win.


----------



## Johnny b

Trump fires Sessions

* Trump fires Attorney General Jeff Sessions, names Matthew Whitaker as interim replacement *

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news...ons-resigns-attorney-general-trump/512600001/

Shocking, just shocking I tell you (  )


----------



## Wino

Gearing up for a "Wednesday Night Massacre" - Sessions just the first shoe to drop.


----------



## Johnny b

White House caught promoting a doctored video done by the people at Infowars.

* White House shares edited video to justify revoking press pass of CNN's Jim Acosta *

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news...a-white-house-video-sarah-sanders/1929569002/

Some might say, big deal.....most of the Trump administration is an illusion.


----------



## Chawbacon

Johnny b said:


> White House caught promoting a doctored video done by the people at Infowars.
> 
> * White House shares edited video to justify revoking press pass of CNN's Jim Acosta *
> 
> https://www.usatoday.com/story/news...a-white-house-video-sarah-sanders/1929569002/
> 
> Some might say, big deal.....most of the Trump administration is an illusion.


This is a legitimate complaint by USA Today, since the video has obviously been sped up for emphasis. _Correction - It appears that the video may be legitimate:

 https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1060540143973687297 _

However, any denial that Acosta did not touch/push/shove (whatever word you want to use) the intern arm while attempting to recover the microphone has been proven to be an outright lie. I have to wonder if this was a Trump concocted response to bait the liberal media into a situation where showing the actual footage in question was required? If yes, this was brilliant. If no, then Trump is really lucky.

I also found it interesting that while watching the initial CNN segments broadcasting Acosta's rebuttal, that CNN omitted showing the actual contact between Acosta and the intern. And to be intellectually honest, conservative media is making the physical contact a bigger deal than it really is. Was Acosta rude and unprofessional to the intern... well.... yeah.

Regardless, this is a documented and probable situation where a MAN has physically prevented a FEMALE intern from doing her job. Where is the call to stop the abuse of women? Where is the call for Acosta to seek counseling and medication to prevent his future testosterone laden reactions? Where is the expected outrage from the liberal media, that would be seen if the subject of the matter was a conservative? Where is the HASHTAG dang it all????


----------



## Chawbacon

Wino said:


> Gearing up for a "Wednesday Night Massacre" - Sessions just the first shoe to drop.


Has that other shoe dropped yet? Just checking.


----------



## Johnny b

Chawbacon said:


> This is a legitimate complaint by USA Today, since the video has obviously been sped up for emphasis. _Correction - It appears that the video may be legitimate:
> 
> https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1060540143973687297 _
> .................


Using an unverified post from twitter is always risky
And it should be noted that from the USAToday article I posted, this quote stands out:



> Tom Richell, a video producer at The Independent, reports the precise frames where the video was edited.


Referring to a post I made in another thread, you've just been had by BS Receptivity  ........

And here's who Jack Posobiec is, your source:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jack_Posobiec


> John Michael Posobiec III (/pəˈsoʊbɪk/ pə-SOH-bik; born December 14, 1985)[1] is an American alt-right[2][3][4] internet troll[5] and conspiracy theorist[6] known primarily for his controversial and pro-Donald Trump comments on Twitter. He has promoted fake news, including the debunked Pizzagate conspiracy theory that high-ranking Democratic Party officials were involved in a child sex ring.


Congratulations, Jack. You've just won the first ever TSG 'BS Receptivity' award. 

( https://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=3023545 )

(edit: seriously, Jack_Posobiec is probably one of the worst aspects of Trumpism and a major factor of what is wrong in our political culture. I suggest a full read of that Wikipedia article about him to understand just how perverted politics in general and the Republican Party have become.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jack_...ories,_falsehoods,_and_unsubstantiated_claims
This is one of the best examples promoting BS Receptivity )


----------



## Johnny b

Chawbacon said:


> .............
> 
> Regardless, this is a documented and probable situation where a MAN has physically prevented a FEMALE intern from doing her job......................


Silly liberal 

Probable situations aren't in the realm of documentation, they are only speculation. 
Documenting speculation is in the realm of conspiracy theory.

Maybe you are trying too hard with the propaganda?


----------



## bomb #21

"President Trump believes in a free press and expects and welcomes tough questions of him and his Administration. We will, however, never tolerate a reporter placing his hands on a young woman just trying to do her job as a White House intern."

If "placing hands" on someone's intolerable, how come Trump lauded some guy who body-slammed a journo?


----------



## Johnny b

* Donald Trump says he may revoke press credentials for other reporters, not just CNN's Jim Acosta *

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news...eporters-white-house-press-passes/1942013002/



> Defending his decision to revoke a CNN reporter's White House press pass, President Donald Trump said Friday he may take the same action against other reporters who have questioned his administration.


Looks like dark times for freedom of the press and possibly the 1st Amendment.


----------



## Chawbacon

Johnny b said:


> Using an unverified post from twitter is always risky
> And it should be noted that from the USAToday article I posted, this quote stands out:


Thus the reason I typed "_Correction - It appears that the video may be legitimate:" _I suppose that I gave you too much intellectual credit and figured that you would pick up on the word *MAY *within that sentence. 


Johnny b said:


> Referring to a post I made in another thread, you've just been had by BS Receptivity  ........


 Yeah.... see above.



Johnny b said:


> Probable situations aren't in the realm of documentation, they are only speculation.
> Documenting speculation is in the realm of conspiracy theory.


Touche! It was a typo. I meant to type provable. Regardless, there should be outrage from ALL of the liberals concerning Acosta's behavior towards this intern.


----------



## Johnny b

Chawbacon said:


> Thus the reason I typed "_Correction - It appears that the video may be legitimate:" _I suppose that I gave you too much intellectual credit and figured that you would pick up on the word *MAY *within that sentence.
> Yeah.... see above.
> 
> Touche! It was a typo. I meant to type provable. Regardless, there should be outrage from ALL of the liberals concerning Acosta's behavior towards this intern.


There was no 'May' possible.
The editing has been proven.

Don't feel bad about it, just question what and who you're quoting from social media and guys like me won't have to hand out awards so often 

There should be outrage from all concerning Trump's new claim for censoring the press from Acosta and beyond.
But, reality strikes.
I suspect most of his followers are cheering the threat 

I will give some credit for the typo 
But the editing created a bogus event and Sander's claim Acosta put a hand on that gal never happened. Gentle arm block maybe, but that's hard to tell from the unedited video.

Mountains out of mole hills.


----------



## Chawbacon

Johnny b said:


> There should be outrage from all concerning Trump's new claim for censoring the press from Acosta and beyond.
> But, reality strikes.
> I suspect most of his followers are cheering the threat


I think that this is one of those situations where liberals are taking Trump literally, instead of seriously and Trump supporters atre taking Trump seriously, instead of literally. Yes, I hear Trump supporters agreeing with the ousting of Acosta. And, I also hear Trump's supporters stating that journalists that refuse to conduct themselves with civility should have their press credentials revoked by the White House; however, his supporters generally do not believe that this will happen.

As a personal thought - The claims that Trump is attempting to dismantle/destroy "Freedom of the Press" is nothing but an over-hyped load of crud. Nothing is stopping CNN from sending a different individual (who can hopefully conduct themselves better) to attend the White House briefings. If anything I blame many past presidents for allowing the White House press corps to become such badgering snits. If any president says "No more questions." the press corp should respectfully shut up and consider the meeting to be over.



Johnny b said:


> Mountains out of mole hills.


This is my point exactly! Democrats see the molehill; but, refuse to make the mountain, since the subject is within the Democrat fold. I guess Democrat molehills can only be built upon if there is only an accusation and not actual facts... Granted, this applies to quite a few Republican molehills also.


----------



## Johnny b

Chawbacon said:


> I think that this is one of those situations where liberals are taking Trump literally, instead of seriously and Trump supporters atre taking Trump seriously, instead of literally. Yes, I hear Trump supporters agreeing with the ousting of Acosta. And, I also hear Trump's supporters stating that journalists that refuse to conduct themselves with civility should have their press credentials revoked by the White House; however, his supporters generally do not believe that this will happen.
> 
> As a personal thought - The claims that Trump is attempting to dismantle/destroy "Freedom of the Press" is nothing but an over-hyped load of crud. Nothing is stopping CNN from sending a different individual (who can hopefully conduct themselves better) to attend the White House briefings. If anything I blame many past presidents for allowing the White House press corps to become such badgering snits. If any president says "No more questions." the press corp should respectfully shut up and consider the meeting to be over.
> 
> This is my point exactly! Democrats see the molehill; but, refuse to make the mountain, since the subject is within the Democrat fold. I guess Democrat molehills can only be built upon if there is only an accusation and not actual facts... Granted, this applies to quite a few Republican molehills also.





> I think that this is one of those situations where liberals are taking Trump literally, instead of seriously and Trump supporters atre taking Trump seriously, instead of literally.


Did you get a headache from dreaming that up 
Leaders are supposed to be literal and taken seriously.
All you infer is that Trump lacks the ability to confer his thoughts.
I disagree, but he does frequently act like a buffoon.



> And, I also hear Trump's supporters stating that journalists that refuse to conduct themselves with civility should have their press credentials revoked by the White House; however, his supporters generally do not believe that this will happen.


The real issue is Trump does not like the questions asked of him and conflict occurs when avoided questions are repeated. Trump 'loses his cool".
There are questions still asked about the Presidential election and Russia.
That will probably never go away.



> As a personal thought.....


You're still allowed to have them.



> This is my point exactly! Democrats see the molehill; but, refuse to make the mountain, since the subject is within the Democrat fold. I guess Democrat molehills can only be built upon if there is only an accusation and not actual facts... Granted, this applies to quite a few Republican molehills also.


Sorry.
I can not fathom your logic or it's direction.
The concept I was promoting relates to making an argument out of 'nothing of significance'.
I see no logic to the inverse of that concept if that is what you intend.
Actually, I see no logic at all no matter whose molehills they are.


----------



## Johnny b

Looks like Trump was made a fool of.......again.
Molehill or mountain?

* North Korea running at least 13 secret operating bases for ballistic missile program, new study shows *

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news...13-secret-ballistic-missile-bases/1976942002/

Looks like Rocket Man just stuck it to Captain Chaos.


----------



## Johnny b

This article was posted In USAToday:

* 
California politicians take Trump to task for threatening to withhold federal fire funds
*
https://www.usatoday.com/story/news...at-state-lawmakers-slam-president/1983429002/

tweet by Trump:


> "It's a disgraceful thing," he said. "Old trees are sitting there, rotting and dry. And instead of cleaning it up, they don't touch them. I think California ought to get their act together and clean up their forests and manage their forests."


This quote from Rep. Ted Lieu, D-Calif.


> Dear @realDonaldTrump: What is wrong with you?" tweeted Rep. Ted Lieu, D-Calif. "Disaster victims deserve help & sympathy. Oh, and guess who owns much of the forest land in CA? Your federal agencies. CA only owns 2%.


So, how true is it that the Federal Government owns many forests?
Obviously a lot.
Posted below are screen shots of the National Forests and another of the major fires ongoing in California.
And it's obvious that the Federal Government hasn't been as active in fire management as it should have.

While Trump has been in office short of two years and this problem didn't just spring up, what justification is there for the Feds to now cut funding and back away from a problem they now wish to ignore on their lands?


----------



## Johnny b

This lawsuit looks interesting, but I doubt it will do much.

* CNN sues Trump administration, demands return of reporter Jim Acosta's White House press credentials *

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news...tion-over-jim-acostas-credentials/1986533002/

I find it surprising that Trump still holds press conferences let alone be interviewed by anything other than Fox News or a conspiracy outfit like Alex Jones' Info Wars.


----------



## Wino

They just need to continue pointing out how childish and petty this ignorant human stain is to the general welfare of the citizens.


----------



## Chawbacon

Johnny b said:


> This article was posted In USAToday:
> 
> *
> California politicians take Trump to task for threatening to withhold federal fire funds
> *
> https://www.usatoday.com/story/news...at-state-lawmakers-slam-president/1983429002/


Yeah! This is one of those times where the President does not know his head from a hole in the ground!


----------



## Chawbacon

Johnny b said:


> This lawsuit looks interesting, but I doubt it will do much.
> 
> * CNN sues Trump administration, demands return of reporter Jim Acosta's White House press credentials *
> 
> https://www.usatoday.com/story/news...tion-over-jim-acostas-credentials/1986533002/
> 
> I find it surprising that Trump still holds press conferences let alone be interviewed by anything other than Fox News or a conspiracy outfit like Alex Jones' Info Wars.


Well... I don't know.... If they take it to the 9th Circuit, I am sure there will be an injunction issued.


----------



## Johnny b

Chawbacon said:


> Well... I don't know.... If they take it to the 9th Circuit, I am sure there will be an injunction issued.


Unless I'm missing something, injunctions are issued to stop a process.
For Acosta, relinquishing his press pass is already a done deal.
He can still request an interview, but that's not realistically in the cards for him 

I suspect the courts will look at the press pass as an invitation rather than a right.


----------



## Wino

What if Turnip held a press conference and no one came?? Except right wing pundits, Fox, Info Wars, WND, KKK, Proud Boys News, American Nazi, White Supremacist, etc. He says nothing of import. Touts nonexistent or embellishes accomplishments and tells outright lies. Blabbers about his greatness and generally talks in psycho babble. Pathetic little man.


----------



## Johnny b

Nothing much different other than Trump doesn't get asked the difficult questions


----------



## Wino

Wino said:


> What if Turnip held a press conference and no one came?? Except right wing pundits, Fox, Info Wars, WND, KKK, Proud Boys News, American Nazi, White Supremacist, etc. He says nothing of import. Touts nonexistent or embellishes accomplishments and tells outright lies. Blabbers about his greatness and generally talks in psycho babble. Pathetic little man.





Johnny b said:


> Nothing much different other than Trump doesn't get asked the *difficult *questions


Any question asked is a difficult question for Turnip to answer, unless the topic is himself.


----------



## Johnny b

Wino said:


> Any question asked is a difficult question for Turnip to answer, unless the topic is himself.


And even that he lies about.


----------



## Wino

Chawbacon said:


> Has that other shoe dropped yet? Just checking.


Actually, this was the second shoe to drop in this slow moving train wreck. No doubt more will follow as the Fake Prez gradually goes more crazy by the day.

https://slate.com/news-and-politics...saturday-night-massacre-matthew-whitaker.html

Excerpt:



> Maybe, maybe not. But whatever the outcome of Mueller's investigation, America is establishing new precedents. One precedent is that President Trump fired the FBI director-and Congress did nothing. Another is that Trump admitted the FBI's investigation of his campaign motivated the firing-and Congress did nothing. A third precedent is that Trump fired the attorney general after having railed against him publicly for refusing to intervene in the investigation-and Congress has done nothing. A fourth precedent is that Trump circumvented the Justice Department's order of succession so he could replace the attorney general with an individual who has directed partisan attacks at the special counsel, has described publicly how a new attorney general could undermine the investigation, has had a personal and political relationship with an individual involved in the investigation, and has been associated with a company that is the focus of a separate FBI investigation.


----------



## Chawbacon

Wino said:


> Actually, this was the second shoe to drop in this slow moving train wreck. No doubt more will follow as the Fake Prez gradually goes more crazy by the day.
> 
> https://slate.com/news-and-politics...saturday-night-massacre-matthew-whitaker.html
> 
> Excerpt:


Ok... If I look at this through a _without proof_ prism and assume that President Trump colluded with Russia to influence the election, or with a design to discredit President Trump at any cost, then I can understand the point of the article.

Back in Realityville, it is concerning; but not unusual, or unexpected, that these positions have been restocked with Presidential loyalists; however, I would prefer to see more of a neutral, Constitutional minded, individual heading up the Justice Department. Accordingly, the situation will requiring monitoring for actual abuse of positional authority. If action is taken towards the Russia investigation, I would expect a very thorough explanation on the reasoning behind any (as-of-yet to occur) said action. At the very least, the AG should not be someone that feels a need to recuse themselves from, or is conflicted towards, all things related to Russian election collusion.

As an observation, I do find it interesting that people who assume, or heap, guilt (so far unfounded) by the President concerning Russia and interference to sway the election, are generally the same people that refuse to listen to/believe provable evidence that implicates Hillary of actually colluding with a foreigner (prior intelligence agent) to influence the election. In reality, the jury is still out on both of these concerns.


----------



## Johnny b

Chawbacon said:


> ................
> 
> As an observation, I do find it interesting that people who assume, or heap, guilt (so far unfounded) by the President concerning Russia and interference to sway the election, are generally the same people that refuse to listen to/believe provable evidence that implicates Hillary of actually colluding with a foreigner (prior intelligence agent) to influence the election. In reality, the jury is still out on both of these concerns.


Can you point to actions by H Clinton that involve her in election fraud?
I ask because I don't remember any but I have heard that complaint elsewhere.


----------



## Chawbacon

Johnny b said:


> Can you point to actions by H Clinton that involve her in election fraud?
> I ask because I don't remember any but I have heard that complaint elsewhere.


Hmmm... Let's see... I did not accuse Hillary of "election fraud." My concern on that front is more in the vein of laundering money to a foreign intelligence agent to create a fraudulent narrative (based on Russian sources), that was later released to the media (so as to be corroborated from multiple sources), that was then used when lying to the FISC (not indicating source payment by a political opposition party), in order to obtain a spying warrant on a political opposition party (plus a lot, lot, lot more). To prevent this from becoming an extremely lengthy post, I will point you to a couple of links that diagram the concerns (Granted these are very Right Leaning sources). Also, some of these diagrams have an assumption that there is lease a certain familiarity with the issue, and one is a bit dated since we now have a better understanding of the amount of money involved. If you have additional questions after digesting the information, I can attempt to explain further.

https://www.theepochtimes.com/assets/uploads/2018/01/18/Fusion-GPS-Map_The-Epoch-Times.jpg
https://cdnews-pull2-mvaqgu6sx.netd...loads/2017/10/Fusion-GPS-connections-12-1.png
https://theconservativetreehouse.files.wordpress.com/2018/01/russian-dossier-fisa-diagram.png


----------



## Johnny b

Chawbacon said:


> ..........................
> 
> As an observation, I do find it interesting that people who assume, or heap, guilt (so far unfounded) by the President concerning Russia and interference to sway the election, *are generally the same people that refuse to listen to/believe provable evidence that implicates Hillary of actually colluding with a foreigner (prior intelligence agent) to influence the election.* In reality, the jury is still out on both of these concerns.





Chawbacon said:


> Hmmm... Let's see... I did not accuse Hillary of "election fraud." ..................................


^^Sophistry.

In reality, you didn't provide what I asked for.

Can you point to actions by H Clinton that involve her in election fraud?
Simple request.
If emails, what specific emails of hers are evidence of election fraud ( illegal election manipulation  ) ?

And please, no silly schematics or even cartoons.
Can you provide any news reports directly relating to H Clinton illegally manipulating an election by colluding with a foreigner agent or foreign entity?
And if you choose to cite Steele, provide the logic of why investigating a political opponent is illegal.

Other than Trump revving his followers into a fever pitch at his rallies by screaming at the top of his lungs, "Jail Hillary", and raising his fist in a power salute.......what investigations are currently underway by any US government authority into allegations of H Clinton's involvement in illegal election manipulations ( election fraud ) ?


----------



## Chawbacon

Johnny b said:


> ^^Sophistry.
> 
> In reality, you didn't provide what I asked for.
> 
> Can you point to actions by H Clinton that involve her in election fraud?
> Simple request.
> If emails, what specific emails of hers are evidence of election fraud ( illegal election manipulation  ) ?


I believe you misunderstand my intent here. I am not making an attempt at sophistry. Election fraud/manipulation normally covers illegal activities; such as, changing ballots, ballot stuffing, intentional loss of ballots, voter intimidation, and other direct election interference. In my opinion, neither Hillary, nor Trump, have taken actions that meet that definition.



Johnny b said:


> And please, no silly schematics or even cartoons.


Please understand that the schematics provided were not meant to be humorous. The intent was to provide insight into how key entities interacted concerning potential political cover-ups and other potential violations of Federal Law. Unfortunately, we are often required to read past the rhetoric (on both sides) in an attempt to fully understand a given situation.

My specific election concerns are more centered around violations of 2 USC 441e.
https://law.justia.com/codes/us/2001/title2/chap14/subchapi/sec441e

*



§441e. Contributions by foreign nationals

Click to expand...

*


> (a) It shall be unlawful for a foreign national directly or through any other person to make any contribution of money or other thing of value, or to promise expressly or impliedly to make any such contribution, in connection with an election to any political office or in connection with any primary election, convention, or caucus held to select candidates for any political office; or for any person to solicit, accept, or receive any such contribution from a foreign national.


Yes this is in reference to the Steele Dossier. The potential violation here is obvious to any intelligent observer; however, Hillary deserves her day court to explain how the Steele Dossier boon-dogle should be considered legal.



Johnny b said:


> Can you provide any news reports directly relating to H Clinton illegally manipulating an election by colluding with a foreigner agent or foreign entity?


Well, since you asked here are links to four articles concerning this very issue, with the last link being a very balanced article, giving argument and counter argument to both sides:
https://www.yahoo.com/news/watchdog...ign-of-election-law-violations-214054242.html
https://theblacksphere.net/2016/10/breaking-hillary-clintons-campaign-violate-election-laws/
https://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2017/oct/25/fec-complaint-accuses-clinton-dnc-violations/
https://www.washingtonexaminer.com/did-hillary-clinton-break-the-law-hiring-trump-dossier-author



Johnny b said:


> And if you choose to cite Steele, provide the logic of why investigating a political opponent is illegal.


I agree completely that opposition research should not be considered illegal, unless the research originates from a foreigner, who is paid for the research... See the bit about 2 USC 411e above. That being said... Is the liberal news media still holding onto the same concerns over Trump and Russia? Oh yeah... that whole Muller thingy that is supposed to be looking into foreign election interference (but not by the Democrats) and has only resulted in tax fraud charges and unrelated perjury traps. Sigh...


----------



## Johnny b

Chawbacon said:


> I believe you misunderstand my intent here. I am not making an attempt at sophistry. Election fraud/manipulation normally covers illegal activities; such as, changing ballots, ballot stuffing, intentional loss of ballots, voter intimidation, and other direct election interference. In my opinion, neither Hillary, nor Trump, have taken actions that meet that definition.


But there was manipulation by way of Russian propaganda, on our last Presidential election. That's not been refuted.
And there are concerns Trump was involved.
That would be illegal.
Very illegal.



> Please understand that the schematics provided were not meant to be humorous. The intent was to provide insight into how key entities interacted concerning potential political cover-ups and other potential violations of Federal Law. Unfortunately, we are often required to read past the rhetoric (on both sides) in an attempt to fully understand a given situation.


They do not represent factual events with references to the validity of their claims.
Typical 'Alex Jones' journalism.
I'm not interested in opinion passing as fact.



> My specific election concerns are more centered around violations of 2 USC 441e.
> https://law.justia.com/codes/us/2001/title2/chap14/subchapi/sec441e


That's an issue of illegal campaign funding, not an issue of election fraud/manipulation in conjunction with foreign agents..
Clinton may be in violation of campaign funding, but you certainly are not addressing what I requested.



> Yes this is in reference to the Steele Dossier. The potential violation here is obvious to any intelligent observer; however, Hillary deserves her day court to explain how the Steele Dossier boon-dogle should be considered legal.


I haven't seen any explanation why the Steele Dossier was generated illegally.

Clinton did not initiate the investigation.
She and the DNC did fund it after the conservative news outlet Washington Free Beacon backed out.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fusion_GPS#Trump_dossier_and_Christopher_Steele



> Well, since you asked here are links to four articles concerning this very issue, with the last link being a very balanced article, giving argument and counter argument to both sides:
> https://www.yahoo.com/news/watchdog...ign-of-election-law-violations-214054242.html
> https://theblacksphere.net/2016/10/breaking-hillary-clintons-campaign-violate-election-laws/
> https://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2017/oct/25/fec-complaint-accuses-clinton-dnc-violations/
> https://www.washingtonexaminer.com/did-hillary-clinton-break-the-law-hiring-trump-dossier-author


Those first 3 are campaign financing issues, and the last looks more like an oped with this standing out:


> "The law prohibits accepting contributions from foreigners or providing substantial assistance to foreigners in making independent expenditures," Hasen said. "It does not prohibit paying foreigners at market value to perform services."



A lot to do about nothing.

I'll repeat:


> Can you provide any news reports directly relating to H Clinton illegally manipulating an election by colluding with a foreigner agent or foreign entity?


So far all you have done is provide sophistry and a dodge. 



> I agree completely that opposition research should not be considered illegal, unless the research originates from a foreigner, who is paid for the research... See the bit about 2 USC 411e above. That being said... Is the liberal news media still holding onto the same concerns over Trump and Russia? Oh yeah... that whole Muller thingy that is supposed to be looking into foreign election interference (but not by the Democrats) and has only resulted in tax fraud charges and unrelated perjury traps. Sigh...


You sound bitter 

BTW, I didn't vote for Hillary. 
I just see all the above nonsense as a poorly thought out diversion away from Trump's ongoing Russian issues.


----------



## Wino

"This is what happens when a *stable genius *leads a *stupid country*!"

https://www.washingtonpost.com/opin...34a2b33be52_story.html?utm_term=.e04be6a92df1


----------



## Johnny b

That was one hell of a read!


----------



## Chawbacon

Johnny b said:


> So far all you have done is provide sophistry and a dodge.


Ok... On the accusation of sophistry... Once again, I never accused Hillary of election fraud. If there is any sophistry occurring, it is this demand for a justification, or proof of an accusation, that I did not make. However, I will admit that this attempt at topic redirection was nicely crafted. 



Johnny b said:


> But there was manipulation by way of Russian propaganda, on our last Presidential election. That's not been refuted.
> And there are concerns Trump was involved.
> That would be illegal.
> Very illegal.


I see you finally found the magic words... "there are *concerns* Trump was involved." I agree there are concerns; but, after 18 months, or so, of a Federal Investigation, no proof has been brought forward that this occurred. I also agree, that if there was proof that Trump paid Russia, or Russian Agents, to interfere with the US election process, then the same statute that I quoted as potentially applying to Hillary would also potentially apply to Trump.



Johnny b said:


> You sound bitter
> 
> BTW, I didn't vote for Hillary.
> I just see all the above nonsense as a poorly thought out diversion away from Trump's ongoing Russian issues.


Nah, not bitter. Just extremely disappointed and concerned that our legal system has a huge perception issue, where justice appears to not be proportioned equally. If an individual, or entity, is concerned about potential Trump and Russian collusion, then the same individual, or entity, should be equally concerned about potential Hillary and Russian collusion.



Johnny b said:


> I haven't seen any explanation why the Steele Dossier was generated illegally.
> 
> Clinton did not initiate the investigation.
> She and the DNC did fund it after the conservative news outlet Washington Free Beacon backed out.
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fusion_GPS#Trump_dossier_and_Christopher_Steele


There is nothing illegal about the simple generation of the Steele Dossier. The potential illegalities begin with campaign financing violations (as you also observed), paying a foreigner for the research, using the dossier to commit fraud on the FISC (lying by omission on the payment source of the dossier, not verifying the contents of the dossier before presenting the information as fact), the leaking of the dossier by Federal agencies to news media outlets, and collusion between Federal Agencies (why not technically illegal, definitely immoral in the implementation). All this for the purpose of obtaining a spying warrant on so that an opposition party leader can be discredited.


----------



## Johnny b

I think the Trumptonion angst against H Clinton too often boils down to repetitive BS Receptivity.


----------



## Johnny b

Chawbacon said:


> ....................... However, I will admit that this attempt at topic redirection was nicely crafted.


Not really. 
It's always expected of you 



> I see you finally found the magic words... "there are *concerns* Trump was involved." I agree there are concerns; but, after 18 months, or so, of a Federal Investigation, no proof has been brought forward that this occurred.............



I wasn't aware you were involved in the investigation.
And Mueller hasn't been receptive in going public on the ongoing investigation.
But it does appear to be trashing some of Trump's henchmen lol!
Be patient 



> Nah, not bitter. Just extremely disappointed and concerned that our legal system has a huge perception issue, where justice appears to not be proportioned equally. If an individual, or entity, is concerned about potential Trump and Russian collusion, then the same individual, or entity, should be equally concerned about potential Hillary and Russian collusion.


There you go , again lol
What collusion with Russia?
Are you merely repeating yourself for the post count? 



> There is nothing illegal about the simple generation of the Steele Dossier. ...........


I didn't bother with the rest of the blather.....irrelevant BS Receptivity.

But going back, this was incredible:



> I also agree, that if there was proof that Trump paid Russia, or Russian Agents, to interfere with the US election process, then the same statute that I quoted as potentially applying to Hillary would also potentially apply to Trump.


I think you are incredibly out of phase with reality.
It seems rather obvious the concerns are of Russia installing Trump for their own advantage, not Trump buying Russian support for his own advantage.
The monies flowed out of Russia and into our election process, not into Russia for their support.
Even the NRA got caught involved in transferring Russian funds into the GOP

Some reading for you:
https://www.dallasnews.com/opinion/...-proxies-helped-funnel-millions-gop-campaigns

https://www.nytimes.com/interactive...ssia-interference-election-trump-clinton.html

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news...vement-in-trump-election-campaign-simon-kukes

Even a nice twist here of Trump laundering Russian money 
https://www.washingtonpost.com/opin...e8-a679-b09212fb69c2_story.html?noredirect=on
.

And of course a Wikipedia article

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_interference_in_the_2016_United_States_elections

And you propose to argue the issue is about lack of proof, of Trump paying Russians?

Maybe you've been watching too many Alex Jones videos


----------



## Chawbacon

Johnny b said:


> I think you are incredibly out of phase with reality.
> It seems rather obvious the concerns are of Russia installing Trump for their own advantage, not Trump buying Russian support for his own advantage.
> The monies flowed out of Russia and into our election process, not into Russia for their support.
> Even the NRA got caught involved in transferring Russian funds into the GOP


I can understand that perspective, and I can see that Congress should address the issue to both strengthen and simplify applicable laws surrounding campaign financing.


Johnny b said:


> And you propose to argue the issue is about lack of proof, of Trump paying Russians?


Yep. That is exactly my point. Let us look closer at the links you provided; because, I believe that you may have overlooked a couple of key sentences that were embedded within these articles.


Johnny b said:


> https://www.dallasnews.com/opinion/...-proxies-helped-funnel-millions-gop-campaigns
> *How Putin's oligarchs funneled millions into GOP campaigns*
> And thanks to changes in campaign finance laws, the political contributions are legal. We have allowed our campaign finance laws to become a strategic threat to our country.


And there is the admission that nothing illegal occurred.


Johnny b said:


> https://www.nytimes.com/interactive...ssia-interference-election-trump-clinton.html
> *The Plot to Subvert an Election - Unraveling the Russia Story So Far*
> Mr. Trump's frustration with the Russian investigation is not surprising. He is right that no public evidence has emerged showing that his campaign conspired with Russia in the election interference or accepted Russian money.


And there is the admission that there is no proof to support "The Plot to subvert and Election." 


Johnny b said:


> https://www.theguardian.com/us-news...vement-in-trump-election-campaign-simon-kukes
> *Russian-US tycoon boasted of 'active' involvement in Trump election campaign*
> Blavatnik said his donations were made "at his sole discretion as an American citizen" and "in full compliance with the law". He declined to say whether he went to the Trump dinner and said he had donated to both Democrats and Republicans in support of a "pro-business agenda".


No where does the Guardian refute this statement concerning an individuals right to donate to an election campaign.


Johnny b said:


> https://www.washingtonpost.com/opin...e8-a679-b09212fb69c2_story.html?noredirect=on
> *Follow the Russian money, and tighten your seatbelt*
> The Alexandria proceeding is not about possible coordination between the Russian government and individuals associated with Donald Trump's presidential campaign. Manafort is being prosecuted pursuant to Deputy Attorney General Rod J. Rosenstein's separate mandate to the special counsel to investigate "any matters that arose or may arise directly from the investigation..."
> ...It's important to stop and note that there's nothing necessarily illegal about any of these real estate transactions.


And there is the admission that the article was written without proof of "possible coordingation between the Russian Goverment..." and that nothing illegal occurred with the real estate transactions.

As for Wiki - Can be used as a starting point; but, Wiki should never be used as a credible source (obvious editing issues).

After reading all of this crud, it simply deepens my disgust towards the media and the obvious use of smoke machines to make individuals believe that there is a fire.


----------



## Johnny b

Chawbacon said:


> I can understand that perspective, and I can see that Congress should address the issue to both strengthen and simplify applicable laws surrounding campaign financing.
> 
> Yep. That is exactly my point. Let us look closer at the links you provided; because, I believe that you may have overlooked a couple of key sentences that were embedded within these articles.
> 
> And there is the admission that nothing illegal occurred.
> 
> And there is the admission that there is no proof to support "The Plot to subvert and Election."
> 
> No where does the Guardian refute this statement concerning an individuals right to donate to an election campaign.
> 
> And there is the admission that the article was written without proof of "possible coordingation between the Russian Goverment..." and that nothing illegal occurred with the real estate transactions.
> 
> As for Wiki - Can be used as a starting point; but, Wiki should never be used as a credible source (obvious editing issues).
> 
> After reading all of this crud, it simply deepens my disgust towards the media and the obvious use of smoke machines to make individuals believe that there is a fire.


And all you have done is beat around the bush overlooking the issue of massive amounts of Russian money flooding into the Trump election camp, whether technically legal or illegal.......showing the 'support by an enemy nation' in the election of Trump, who by the way is involved in their economy ......initially denied Russian interference on the word of an ex-Communist KGB official acting as President of Russia.
By way of Trump, many political decisions have been made to weaken the US from national to world stages....from simple blustering, bullying, broken trade agreements, broken foreign treaties, trade wars, polarizing our society to an even greater degree socially/racially/politically, threatening US businesses that refuse his intervention in their business models, intense buffoonery and lying + much more.
All to the detriment of our society and to the advantage of his oligarch associates behind Putin.

You and other Trumpites simply do not want an investigation into any possible connections/collusion between the head of the Trump Party and Russia concerning the last Presidential election.

Why? (rhetorical- not expecting an accurate response)

Why focus on the above 'one liners' while ignoring the totality of the situation?
And those links did express a lot of the issues of concern to the Trump presidency and Russia.

Look closely at your post. All you've promoted is an argument of collusion being legal through sophistry.
An investigation is a better way to determine if laws were broken than sophistry.


----------



## Johnny b

* Trump again warns he may shut down southern border *
https://www.usatoday.com/story/news...exico-migrant-caravan-immigration/2086291002/



> President Donald Trump on Thursday again threatened to close the southern border if the Mexican government fails to do more to secure its side of it.
> ..............
> "We are either going to have a border, or we're not," he said. "When they lose control of the border on the Mexico side, we just close the border."
> 
> Any closing of the border could cause economic damage to not only the four border states but throughout the country. *The State Department estimates that $1.7 billion in goods and services, and hundreds of thousands of people, legally cross the border each day*.


Trade wars, threats to close an entire border. Embracing dictators. Stirring divisiveness in our society. Economic insanity from a racist property developer that made an empire initially based on inherited wealth and guidance/protection from a mob lawyer.
Not seeing much positive leadership.


----------



## Johnny b

Not unexpected. Here we are with hidden threats to another major US manufacturer that has had to change it's business model to meet consumer buying.
Typical Trumptonian economic policy to exhibit his image as a master economic wizard at the expense of industry and business.......so long as it isn't his own.

* Trump blasts GM plan to cut plants, says he was 'tough' on CEO Mary Barra *
https://www.usatoday.com/story/news...ot-happy-gm-plan-cut-cars-workers/2118193002/



> President Donald Trump blasted a proposal by General Motors on Monday to sharply reduce the company's workforce and close plants in Ohio, Michigan and other states where the president has touted the auto industry's strength.
> 
> "This country has done a lot for General Motors," Trump said as he departed the White House for a series of campaign events in Mississippi. "They better get back to Ohio and soon. So we have a lot of pressure on them."
> 
> .........................
> "They say the Chevy Cruze is not selling well. I said, 'Well, get a car that is selling well and put it back in,' " Trump said. "I'm not happy about it."


It's rather obvious GM needs to build what the public wants to buy (not cars so much now) rather than product that won't sell well.

President T has muscles for brains and they're obviously atrophied.


----------



## Johnny b

LOL.....even the Democrats are upset with GM.

* Democrats say General Motors gets Trump tax cut, workers get shafted *

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news...sherrod-brown-tim-ryan-blast-cuts/2117103002/

If building cars and trucks is so easy, why don't politicians build them instead of habitually wasting those tax dollars? (rhetorical  )



> "GM received record tax breaks as a result of the GOP's tax bill last year, and has eliminated jobs instead of using that tax windfall to invest in American workers," Brown said in a news release put out Monday by his office.


When those new factories do get built and AI is a factor, I suspect there will be a lot of crying and screaming in Congress and finger pointing as actaul job creation doesn't meet their promised ( imaginary ) expectations 



> Brown wasn't the only member of Congress complaining about GM's move: Rep. Tim Ryan, D-Ohio, said that when Trump visited the state last year, he promised that jobs were coming back and urged people to stay.


And they believed him?
Democrats in Ohio ( where I live ) must be dumber than they look 



> "So far, President Trump has been asleep at the switch and owes the community an explanation," said Ryan. "We tried to get his attention on this issue two years ago. He promised us that his massive corporate tax cut would lead to dramatic reinvestments."


----------



## Johnny b

Mobile computing and iPhone consumers aren't going to like this:

* Donald Trump on iPhone tariffs: 'maybe' *

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news...fs-increase-could-include-iphones/2119866002/



> President Donald Trump said he is considering raising tariff levels on a number of Chinese-made goods and levying duties on others, including iPhones and mobile computers.
> 
> In an interview with the Wall Street Journal out Monday, Trump said he would increase tariffs on $200 billion worth of China goods to 25 percent, effective Jan. 1.
> 
> "Maybe. Maybe. Depends on what the rate is," Trump said of the phones and computers. "I mean, I can make it 10 percent, and people could stand that very easily."


*" I can make it 10 percent, and people could stand that very easily." *
said the Billionaire born with a silver spoon in his mouth. 

BTW....this is where those fantastical tax cuts start disappearing......everything costs more in a trade war


----------



## Johnny b

So....Trump and some Democrats think they know the auto business better than auto industry leaders.
Ford survived the Bush and Obama administrations only to wind up vulnerable to Trump's tariffs on steel and aluminum. Ford is investing some $11 billion + to remake their operations while Trump threatens them to hold the line and bow to his own version of a nationalist economy.
The new GM has shed much of the bad habits of it's old bankrupt version and is spending some $6 billion + to revamp it's operations.
Both are cutting their workforce at the moment as their business models change in order to continue in the business world and remain profitable.

But this won't get votes for certain politicians.

So the dilemma for businesses like Ford and GM.......do they exist to please politicians that know nothing of their business models, or create a product that provides a profit for their efforts?

This article popped up at USAToday this morning showing how GM is adjusting their business model for success.
The 'art of the deal' doesn't work well here. Corruption seldom does.

* Why GM CEO Mary Barra killed Chevrolet cars, approved likely plant closures *
https://www.usatoday.com/story/money/cars/2018/11/27/mary-barra-gm-general-motors/2116833002/

It's rather obvious Trump is neither the friend of Business nor the American public.
He's a lot of things but little more than a 21st century version of a carpetbagger that's currently doing all of the US. The ultimate unscrupulous opportunist.


----------



## Johnny b

Flogging the global warming controversy:

* Trump says he doesn't believe his own administration's report on the economic impact of climate change *

https://www.businessinsider.com/tru...e-report-multibillion-economic-impact-2018-11

Too much to copy and paste.
GW is real.
And of course, Mr Know Nothing Trump knows nothing about it.



> "Mr. President, have you read the climate report yet?" a reporter asked Trump outside the White House.
> 
> "I've seen it, I've read some of it, and it's fine," Trump responded.


It's fine?


----------



## Johnny b

And now, back to Trump and his latest threat.

* Trump warns U.S. may cut off GM subsidies after job cuts *

https://finance.yahoo.com/news/trump-warns-u-may-cut-192818304.html



> "The U.S. saved General Motors, and this is the THANKS we get! We are now looking at cutting all @GM subsidies, including ... for electric cars," Trump said on Twitter.


First, the electric car 'subsidy' isn't a subsidy, it's a Federal Tax Credit for the *consumer* of an electric car.

Second, there is already a phase out of Tax Credits, per manufacturer, when annual manufacturing of electric cars exceeds 200,000 units.

The idea was to establish a market for electric cars.
Now Trump is using a deletion of the Credit, to the consumer, as a way to punish a manufacturer for disobeying his ignorant orders.

* OCTOBER UPDATE - 5 Automakers Closest To Losing The Federal Tax Credit *
https://insideevs.com/top-6-automakers-200000-federal-tax-credit-limit/

* "The U.S. saved General Motors, and this is the THANKS we get! *
And now Trump is ready and willing to destroy the progress GM has made on the tax payer's 'dime' simply to prove he's an alpha that's in absolute control of our society. Or is there more? President Trumpski?

I imagine VW is now looking at Ford as a potential albatross in a merger and as a partner, the plans to sell/develop electric platforms to/for Ford potentially a problem in the near future.

Trump...the guy touted to be a business man suitable for making America great again. Looks more like a wrecking ball 

Trumpski? 
Starts a trade war that injures a large segment of manufacturing and creates further economic havoc by punishing those trying to survive his stupidity.
Shameful.

Putin smiles.


----------



## Johnny b

A common sense article:

* Trump has the GM problem backward *

https://finance.yahoo.com/news/trump-gm-problem-backward-211449005.html



> President Trump wants General Motors (GM) to continue building money-losing cars nobody wants to buy in order to save several thousand industrial-era jobs. It's the exact opposite of what Trump should be encouraging American companies to do, and it's the wrong message for workers, too.


----------



## Johnny b

Interesting article relating to the fears of the Trump/Russian relationship and obvious why the Mueller investigation needs to proceed:

*Trump's Russia connections are becoming clearer *

https://finance.yahoo.com/news/trumps-russia-connections-becoming-clearer-183421875.html

( too much to copy and paste )


----------



## Johnny b

* Report: Trump Organization planned to give $50 million penthouse to Putin amid Moscow deal *

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news...on-vladimir-putin-penthouse-suite/2156031002/

Shocking, just shocking I tell you


----------



## Johnny b

A reminder of old news coming back to haunt the Trumpites

* Trump's business network reached alleged Russian mobsters *

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news...es-russian-mobsters-organized-crime/98321252/



> President Trump and his properties have been linked to at least 10 wealthy former Soviet businessmen with alleged ties to criminal organizations and money laundering.


And some people wonder why Trump and his connection to Russia is being investigated? Go figure.


----------



## Johnny b

Another article on Trump's connections to Russia, but this paragraph literaly jumped up and off the page:

*Trump's business ties to Russia stretch back more than 30 years, from big building projects to beauty pageants *

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news...-scrutiny-amid-michael-cohen-plea/2149518002/



> Sater, according to the New York Times, wrote a series of emails in 2015 to Trump's lawyer - Cohen - in which he boasted about his ties to Russia's President Vladimir Putin. "Our boy can be president of the USA and we can engineer it," Sater wrote in one of the emails. "I will get all of Putin's team to buy in on this."


Read the article and then realize just how big a liar our President is from his quotes at the bottom of this article.
How America can be so blind as to elect such a person is beyond me.
One incredible lie after another.


----------



## Johnny b

Interesting article at Salon:

* Sex, lies and videotape: Is the Trump drama nearing its climax? *

https://www.salon.com/2018/11/30/sex-lies-and-videotape-is-the-trump-drama-nearing-its-climax/



> If our national drama is a bad gangster movie, are we finally close to the antihero's inevitable downfall?
> 
> There is international intrigue, corruption and greed............
> 
> There is sex, lies and videotape. .............
> 
> The violence, racism, bigotry and hate Donald Trump has encouraged mirror the images and sounds of history. ...............
> 
> The age of Trump is dark comedy. .................
> 
> In many ways Donald Trump is like Cobra Commander from the G.I. Joe cartoon. ...................
> 
> ____________________________________
> 
> Coming days and weeks will see more political tumult as Robert Mueller continues to tighten his grip on Trump and his inner circle.
> 
> What happens next?..........................
> 
> America has been stained and sullied by a scandal right out of a horrible novel or screenplay.


----------



## Chawbacon

Johnny b said:


> Another article on Trump's connections to Russia, but this paragraph literaly jumped up and off the page:
> 
> *Trump's business ties to Russia stretch back more than 30 years, from big building projects to beauty pageants *
> 
> https://www.usatoday.com/story/news...-scrutiny-amid-michael-cohen-plea/2149518002/
> 
> Read the article and then realize just how big a liar our President is from his quotes at the bottom of this article.
> How America can be so blind as to elect such a person is beyond me.
> One incredible lie after another.


Lots and lots and lots of generated smoke here. So let us look closer at reality:

Trump - International business man with business deals around the world. 
Surprising that Trump sought to build in Russia over the last 30 years... No.

There are no U.S. laws that require a candidate to halt international business dealings while running for a party nomination; but...
Per Cohen - Business negotiation with Russia continued until June of 2016; but...
Trump was not nominated as the official Republican candidate until July of 2016.; but...
Can you say "Manufactured Problem?"

I do not disagree with the potential concern; however, it is remiss to not include the response to the quote on Sater's e-mail:
"The Times noted that Cohen never replied to the emails and viewed them as "puffery." Sater said he was simply expressing "enthusiasm" for the Trump Organization."

As for our President being a liar (in respect to the quotes at the bottom of the article), this is a perfect example where the liberal media has purposefully portrayed the Presidents comments out-of-context. Those comments were directly related to concerns that the Trump campaign colluded with Russia, and as some like to say "Steal the election" (by the way, still no concrete evidence that Russina Collusion happened on that front). Those quotes were obviously not comments on business dealings that may have occurred over the last 30 years. In all honesty, Trump has enough credibility issues with making less than factual statements without the media adding to the deliberate distortion of history and history as it is occurring.


----------



## Johnny b

Chawbacon said:


> Lots and lots and lots of generated smoke here. So let us look closer at reality:
> 
> Trump - International business man with business deals around the world.
> Surprising that Trump sought to build in Russia over the last 30 years... No.
> 
> There are no U.S. laws that require a candidate to halt international business dealings while running for a party nomination; but...
> Per Cohen - Business negotiation with Russia continued until June of 2016; but...
> Trump was not nominated as the official Republican candidate until July of 2016.; but...
> Can you say "Manufactured Problem?"
> 
> I do not disagree with the potential concern; however, it is remiss to not include the response to the quote on Sater's e-mail:
> "The Times noted that Cohen never replied to the emails and viewed them as "puffery." Sater said he was simply expressing "enthusiasm" for the Trump Organization."
> 
> As for our President being a liar (in respect to the quotes at the bottom of the article), this is a perfect example where the liberal media has purposefully portrayed the Presidents comments out-of-context. Those comments were directly related to concerns that the Trump campaign colluded with Russia, and as some like to say "Steal the election" (by the way, still no concrete evidence that Russina Collusion happened on that front). Those quotes were obviously not comments on business dealings that may have occurred over the last 30 years. In all honesty, Trump has enough credibility issues with making less than factual statements without the media adding to the deliberate distortion of history and history as it is occurring.


LOL!

The old 'fake news' excuse. 

I suspect you'll be reading a lot of news reports upsetting to Trumpites in the near and distant future


----------



## Johnny b

Chawbacon said:


> Lots and lots and lots of generated smoke here. So let us look closer at reality:..............( edited for brevity)...............


Oh my goodness, even Fox News is pointing out the massive concerns about Trump and only following up with a very short, limp and whiny rebuttal. How odd of Fox to do that ( LOL!)

(in really big font)
* Cohen's guilty pleas proof that Russians had 'leverage' over Trump, Dem rep says *

https://www.foxnews.com/politics/co...russians-had-leverage-over-trump-dem-rep-says

Is Fox hedging their bets? !



> Sen. John Barrasso, R- Wyo., who also appeared on "Meet The Press," downplayed Cohen's guilty plea and his revelations about Trump's role in the process.
> 
> "The president is an international businessman. I'm not surprised he was doing international business,"


Hmmmm?
If that last line were to be restated in a manner to reflect reality and still be IN context with the article, it could look like this:

* "The president has had in the past, vast financial connections to oligarchs in Russia with questionable ties to the Russian mob...... I'm not surprised he was currently doing business with them" *

Shocking


----------



## Johnny b

What's really going on? (rhetorical question)

* Trump's description of the China trade deal doesn't match the official White House version *

https://www.cnbc.com/2018/12/03/us-...ps-claims-dont-match-white-house-version.html



> The president's broad conclusions about the trade agreement also didn't mesh with Chinese state media's more measured descriptions.


As for the Chinese:
Chinese descriptions-------> *What Beijing and its state-controlled media are saying about the Trump-Xi deal *
https://www.cnbc.com/2018/12/03/trump-xi-trade-deal-what-chinese-state-media-is-saying.html

Sounds like the hero of the book, 'The Art of the Deal', should have chosen a different title.
Maybe 'The Art of the Lie' ?


----------



## Wino

Turnip is a deal maker in his own mind, not in reality. The NAFTA replacement USMCA is more name change than actual benefit, nor is Twits G20 agreement with China. As in all things he does, he creates a problem where there was none so he can take credit for resolving a problem he caused and blames some other entity for it's creation. Twit cannot utter one sentence without lying. Flimflam man to the end, snake oil sales at best.


----------



## Johnny b

Some on the extreme far right will poo-poo this opinion piece, but note that it comes from someone with experience in the Federal judicial system.

* Mueller is building a conspiracy case that's likely to ensnare Trump and his family *

https://www.usatoday.com/story/opin...-trump-tower-moscow-russia-column/2183355002/


----------



## Johnny b

Trump strikes a trade agreement that no one other than Trump seems to know much about. Sound familiar?

* Trump's Aides Struggle to Detail Deal He Says He Cut With Xi *

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/arti...ruggle-to-explain-deal-he-says-he-cut-with-xi


----------



## Johnny b

Who is Scott Free and what did he ever do to Donald Trump? (  )

https://people.com/politics/donald-trump-typo-scott-free/


----------



## Johnny b

Johnny b said:


> Trump strikes a trade agreement that no one other than Trump seems to know much about. Sound familiar?
> 
> * Trump's Aides Struggle to Detail Deal He Says He Cut With Xi *
> 
> https://www.bloomberg.com/news/arti...ruggle-to-explain-deal-he-says-he-cut-with-xi


WOW! 
Yesterday the stock market was up on Trump's China announcement.

Today, the market realized it might be his typical boasting ( fake news ) and at 1:10 today it's down 600 points.

Gotta wonder if there is some intentional market manipulation going on.

edit 9:04 12-5-2018___ that wound up being an 800 point drop at the end of the trading day


----------



## Johnny b

* China is reportedly 'puzzled and irritated' by Trump administration's words of triumph after trade truce *
https://www.cnbc.com/2018/12/04/china-confused-by-trumps-words-of-triumph-after-trade-truce.html

How could this be?
We all know the Prez is an financial wizard and the very best negotiator in the whole wide world that always tells the truth....... because he tells us so.

I wonder how much of this year's soy bean crop gets plowed back into the ground as fertilizer?


----------



## Johnny b

The Presidential cybersecurity adviser
https://www.usatoday.com/story/news...-rudy-giuliani-russia-cybersecurity/96482616/

appears to be a fool:
* Rudy Giuliani accuses Twitter of anti-Trump conspiracy, editing his tweet to add typo *

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news.../giuliani-twitter-typo-conspiracy/2212492002/

Like we didn't already know that


----------



## Chawbacon

Johnny b said:


> Oh my goodness, even Fox News is pointing out the massive concerns about Trump and only following up with a very short, limp and whiny rebuttal. How odd of Fox to do that ( LOL!)
> 
> (in really big font)
> * Cohen's guilty pleas proof that Russians had 'leverage' over Trump, Dem rep says *
> 
> https://www.foxnews.com/politics/co...russians-had-leverage-over-trump-dem-rep-says
> Is Fox hedging their bets? !


Nah, not hedging bets. Fox does allow news reporting that is contrary to the commentary agenda. Of course, it will probably be buried by other articles in fairly short order.

Now, this is a problem for Trump. Naturally, the counter argument will claim that Cohen is an unreliable witness due to changing stories, etc... However, if Cohen has enough documentation to prove his claims, that will be a BIG problem for Trump. For now this will probably be a significant annoyance for the Trump legal team; but, form a legal point of view, not an insurmountable problem. Only time will tell.


----------



## Chawbacon

Johnny b said:


> WOW!
> Yesterday the stock market was up on Trump's China announcement.
> 
> Today, the market realized it might be his typical boasting ( fake news ) and at 1:10 today it's down 600 points.
> 
> Gotta wonder if there is some intentional market manipulation going on.


Yeah. IMHO - The stock market is really just very high stakes, legalized gambling operation. I mean where else can you gain and loose millions of dollars simply based upon the words of individuals in powerful positions. Especially when there is no official deal and no dried ink on a contract.

Everyone involved (Trump included) should have put on the brakes, until the dust had settled.


----------



## Johnny b

Chawbacon said:


> Yeah. IMHO - The stock market is really just very high stakes, legalized gambling operation. I mean where else can you gain and loose millions of dollars simply based upon the words of individuals in powerful positions.
> 
> .........................


Depends on your investment strategy.
And as a generality, the stock market has historically grown in value at a faster rate than inflation.
It is a speculation and consideration of success.
Speculate with out knowledge or with false information and it too often becomes a tale of a fool and his money becoming separated.
Consideration of value can be very rewarding.
But add in corruption and it becomes a sure thing for the manipulators, to the cost of all investors. If they don't get caught 



> Especially when there is no official deal and no dried ink on a contract.


?
What you are referring to?


----------



## Wino

I thought Turnips tweets were official??

Don't appreciate disparaging comments regarding people buying stocks and participating in the American Dream!! 

I'm buying pot stocks - By the time Turnip is out of office I expect pot sales will be through the roof - legal or illegal - Zeus only knows!


----------



## Johnny b

Wino said:


> ............................
> ............
> 
> .......... By the time Turnip is out of office I expect pot sales will be through the roof - legal or illegal - Zeus only knows!


LOL!


----------



## Johnny b

Wino said:


> ....................
> 
> Don't appreciate disparaging comments regarding people buying stocks and participating in the American Dream!!
> 
> ...................


Already reading it's going to be a bloody day on Wall Street.
Time to start following those favorites closely for good buys.

* 'Sell All' Battle Cries Heard Across Markets Ahead of U.S. Open *
https://finance.yahoo.com/news/sell-battle-cries-heard-across-122216878.html

You just know Trump is going to blame this on the Dems as a conspiracy against all that is holy in the Trump-o-sphere ....


----------



## Wino

Bloody isn't strong enough!! I'm getting whiplash. Have made some bad buys; made some good buys; got screwed with multiple backward splits that diluted holdings in some; buys outs screwed me in some; couple of corp bankruptcies; have gone from 90% above water to 75% below. The volatility caused by a sober stable genius that bounces around like silly putty from confusion to down right stupid economic policies and hasn't a clue. But, hey, hey, the unwashed elected this idiot. I'll ride this storm out and hope for the best, but it's looking more like the movie "Perfect Storm" - with 'gut feeling' outpacing actual intelligence - on the part of the POTUS senility and genius. I feel a Tsunami of stupid is flooding the world.


----------



## Johnny b

Sorry to hear that Wayne.

It's unfortunate that reasonable people are going to be hurt along with those that support what's going on.

I wish there was really a way to wave a magic wand and make everything right, but every time a schemer comes up with a grand plan and promises, it seems to eventually get worse.

When a society can not tell the difference between senility and intelligence, it's in trouble.........like now.
Add in a Tsunami of stupid and it gets worse very quickly.


----------



## Johnny b

Looks like either Kelly has had enough of Trump or Trump has had enough of Kelly.
Or maybe they just can't get along 



> White House chief of staff John Kelly expected to resign soon


https://www.cnn.com/2018/12/07/politics/john-kelly-chief-of-staff-donald-trump/index.html

These days, that's probably a good career move.


----------



## Johnny b

Chawbacon said:


> Nah, not hedging bets. Fox does allow news reporting that is contrary to the commentary agenda. Of course, it will probably be buried by other articles in fairly short order.
> 
> Now, this is a problem for Trump. Naturally, the counter argument will claim that Cohen is an unreliable witness due to changing stories, etc... However, if Cohen has enough documentation to prove his claims, that will be a BIG problem for Trump. For now this will probably be a significant annoyance for the Trump legal team; but, form a legal point of view, not an insurmountable problem. Only time will tell.


Another Fox News talking head speaks out. What's going on? (  )

* Tucker Carlson says Trump is 'not capable' and hasn't kept his promises *

https://www.washingtonpost.com/poli...ed-nothing-tucker-carlson-says/?noredirect=on



> Fox News Channel host Tucker Carlson set straight any misinformation concerning his views on President Trump: "I don't think he's capable,"
> 
> .......
> 
> Carlson said he cannot stand Trump's self-aggrandizement and boasting. Then, when asked whether Trump has kept his promises, the usually quick-witted and long-winded Carlson had just one word: "No."


The interview can be read here:
https://www.weltwoche.ch/ausgaben/2...ot-capable-die-weltwoche-ausgabe-49-2018.html

But there is more to Carlson :



> I mean let me just be clear. I'm not against an aristocratic system. I'm not against a ruling class. I think that hierarchies are natural, people create them in every society. I just think the system that we have now the meritocracy, which is based really on our education system, on a small number of colleges has produced a ruling class that doesn't have the self-awareness that you need to be wise. I'm not arguing for populism, actually. I'm arguing against populism. Populism is what you get when your leaders fail. In a democracy, the population says this is terrible and they elect someone like Trump.


Talk about a conflicted position.
In the late 1700's, The United States began an experiment of a free and democratic society while much of the world was mired down in despotic aristocratic control.
But Carlson has no issue with 'aristocracies'. 
He claims to come from a privileged class, a product of those colleges he disparages.
And then look at the twisted logic of the last two statements.

Reality, the populism he speaks of was a creation of propaganda, a movement spurred on by dictatorial oligarchs in a foreign nation whose goals run counter to the existence and influence of the US, which has implications of a Presidential candidate leveraging for his own elect-ability with possible collusion.
Carlson damns Trump's 'failure' while building a case for the needed success of Trump's promises.

Steve Bannon would be proud.

So ...what is Tucker up to in criticizing Trump?
Most likely that the US needs a more efficient dictator.

These Nationalists are definitely tricky people. Interesting propaganda piece.


----------



## Johnny b

*Yeah, but I won't be here *



> Trump on Coming Debt Crisis: 'I Won't Be Here' When It Blows Up


https://www.thedailybeast.com/trump...lows-up?utm_source=feedly&utm_medium=webfeeds



> The president thinks the balancing of the nation's books is going to, ultimately, be a future president's problem.


And that folks, is the 'Art of the Deal' played out Trumptonian style.
He walks away with the US on the hook for his 'life style' of playing leader.


----------



## Wino

Actually, what we have now is a kakistocracy with an accidental oligarch at it's head who wishes it were a aristocracy. In any case it is Idiocracy regardless of any other "-cracy" !!


----------



## Chawbacon

*Automakers rise on report of China moving to cut U.S. car tariffs*
https://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-trade-china-autos-idUSKBN1OA1AC


> China is moving to cut import tariffs on American-made cars to 15 percent from the current 40 percent, Bloomberg reported on Tuesday citing people familiar with the matter.


Hmmm.... Still have to wait for this to be verified; but, some of you guys might want to consider warming up the oven for the looming serving of humble pie.

For me, I will wait for this to be finalized before I give it actual credence. Too much can change between now and any projected implementation.


----------



## Johnny b

Chawbacon said:


> *Automakers rise on report of China moving to cut U.S. car tariffs*
> https://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-trade-china-autos-idUSKBN1OA1AC
> 
> Hmmm.... Still have to wait for this to be verified; but, some of you guys might want to consider warming up the oven for the looming serving of humble pie.
> 
> ..........................


Rather hypocritical of you after all the times your claims have been shown to be less than poo and not a single comment from you to follow 



> Still have to wait for this to be verified


And how many times has that gone deaf? 
I heard Little Rocket man lost weight laughing his arse off LOL!

And it should be pointed out the auto makers have less trouble from China than they do from Trump threatening victimization for not embracing his lunatic business models.

And there are soy bean crops still in storage from the 2017 season, going unsold....to the Chinese, spoiling....while farmers wonder what they are going to do with the majority of the 2018 crops.

Humble pie?......if Trump gets his way, expect to be eating smelly bean sandwiches next summer LOL!


----------



## Chawbacon

Johnny b said:


> Rather hypocritical of you after all the times your claims have been shown to be less than poo and not a single comment from you to follow


Nah. After stating my point, I often decline to weigh into the mass insanity and outlandish rhetoric contained within many responses.


----------



## Johnny b

And now for some reality.

Before the trade war, who was exporting the most cars ?
China to the US, or the US to China?

The US was before the trade war.
http://fortune.com/2018/04/09/donald-trump-china-car-tariffs/



> The U.S. imported 58,000 passenger cars from China worth $1.5 billion last year, according to the International Trade Administration, a federal agency within the Department of Commerce. That was a fraction of the number of cars the U.S. exported to China: 267,000 passenger vehicles worth $9.9 billion.


Now compare the Chinese auto imports into the US to the total number of auto Imports into the US from other nations:



> Chinese-made cars made up just 0.76% of the $191.7 billion in new automobiles and light trucks that the U.S. imported in 2017, according to the International Trade Administration data. Canada, Mexico and Japan were the top exporters of cars to the U.S.


*" Chinese-made cars made up just 0.76% of the $191.7 billion in new automobiles and light trucks that the U.S. imported in 2017" * and Trump goes into a trade war with the nation that appears to export the least vehicles.

When Wino states the Trump administration is a kakistocracy, it's not only dead on accurate, it's down right embarrassing.

Mountains out of molehills .
BS receptivity.
So sad (  )


----------



## Johnny b

Chawbacon said:


> Nah. After stating my point, I often decline to weigh into the mass insanity and outlandish rhetoric contained within many responses.


In other words....you got nothin'


----------



## Johnny b

All the noise from the Trumptonian Party about 'boarder' (  ) walls and all it takes is a fiction writer with one simple question to demonstrate how useless it is:

* Stephen King Taunts Trump With The 1 Simple Question He Won't Answer *
https://www.huffingtonpost.com/entr...trump-border-wall_us_5c1098bce4b084b082fddce1



> Wait a minute, wait! Wasn't...um, Mexico going to pay for Trump's useless, just-tunnel-under-it wall?


Some examples of Trump's stupidity?
For your reading pleasure:
https://www.google.com/search?sourc.....0j0i131j0i10j0i22i30j0i22i10i30.vNRXL3CiGJE

( simply google ' tunnels under the us mexico border ' )

These represent the worst of criminal intent from south of the US border, and a new $18 billion wall is irrelevant in stopping them.

example:
* Authorities along U.S., Mexico Border Find Tunnel With Rail System, Solar-Powered Lighting Under California *
https://www.newsweek.com/mexico-us-...erground-wall-trump-solar-power-train-1162022

It's rather obvious the inhuman approach Trump and his legion of fools are taking, does not address the above.


----------



## Johnny b

Chawbacon said:


> *Automakers rise on report of China moving to cut U.S. car tariffs*
> https://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-trade-china-autos-idUSKBN1OA1AC
> 
> Hmmm.... Still have to wait for this to be verified; but, some of you guys might want to consider warming up the oven for the looming serving of humble pie.
> 
> For me, I will wait for this to be finalized before I give it actual credence. Too much can change between now and any projected implementation.


https://finance.yahoo.com/news/stocks-continue-fall-global-growth-concerns-195720955.html

* Stocks continue to fall on global growth concerns *

today' close:
S&P 500
2,599.95
-50.59(-1.91%)

Dow 30
24,100.51
-496.87(-2.02%)

Nasdaq
6,910.67
-159.67(-2.26%)

How's the crow sandwich? 

Smile, there's always next week


----------



## Johnny b

Johnny b said:


> .............
> 
> .....
> 
> How's the crow sandwich?
> 
> Smile, there's always next week


But for now, it's the weekend and there is a fog lifting as the view of a Trumptonian empire discloses elements of it's corruption.

A brief script of Trump drama as currently known:

* His worst nightmare: Trump's life under a legal microscope *

https://www.cnn.com/2018/12/15/politics/donald-trump-robert-mueller-investigations-russia/index.html

Too much to copy and paste.
But this stands out:


> This trail of dishonesty and deceit is evident even before Mueller has delivered what could ultimately be his most explosive findings -- whether he has found evidence that the President's campaign cooperated with Russia and whether he obstructed justice in the firing of former FBI chief James Comey and a bid to thwart Mueller.


While much of this has been discussed here in this forum, when assembled on one web page, it's amazing Trump still retains his office.


----------



## Wino

Johnny b said:


> But for now, it's the weekend and there is a fog lifting as the view of a Trumptonian empire discloses elements of it's corruption.
> 
> A brief script of Trump drama as currently known:
> 
> * His worst nightmare: Trump's life under a legal microscope *
> 
> https://www.cnn.com/2018/12/15/politics/donald-trump-robert-mueller-investigations-russia/index.html
> 
> Too much to copy and paste.
> But this stands out:
> 
> While much of this has been discussed here in this forum, when assembled on one web page, it's amazing Trump still retains his office.


What's ironically sad is The Orange Scourge brought this on himself. Had he not fired James Comey, we probably wouldn't be having this conversation. Difficult to feel any pity or empathy for this moron. He'd still be a scam artist / grifter / flimflammer lying CiC, we just wouldn't know as much as we do currently. He has created near all of his problems all by his lonesome with little outside help.


----------



## Chawbacon

Thought you guys might like this article. 

*Witches to Trump: Stop Calling the Mueller Investigation a 'Witch Hunt'*


> Actual witch hunts have left what witchcraft author Kitty Randall, who uses the name "Amber K." in the witching world, calls a "traumatic emotional imprint" on modern-day witches.
> 
> "To have him compare his situation to the worst period in our history is just infuriating," Randall said.


https://www.thedailybeast.com/witches-to-trump-stop-calling-the-mueller-investigation-a-witch-hunt


----------



## Johnny b

* Russia 'meddled in all big social media' around US election *

https://www.bbc.com/news/technology-46590890



> The report, released today by the US Senate, exposes the scale of Russian disinformation efforts.


https://comprop.oii.ox.ac.uk/research/ira-political-polarization/
Too much to copy and paste at this link.
However this stood out:


> Surprisingly, these campaigns did not stop once Russia's IRA was caught interfering in the 2016 election. *Engagement rates increased and covered a widening range of public policy issues, national security issues, and issues pertinent to younger voters. *


And to think, Trump supporters consider Russia a friend to the USA.

The Trump administration turns a blind eye to election interference.

Putin smiles.


----------



## Johnny b

* Trump approves additional financial help for US farmers hurt by ongoing trade war *

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news...l-aid-coming-farmers-hurt-tariffs/2341596002/



> President Donald Trump said Monday he has authorized Agriculture Secretary Sonny Perdue to launch the second and final round of payments from a $12 billion aid package he promised last July to farmers slammed by tariffs.
> 
> "Today I am making good on my promise to defend our Farmers & Ranchers from unjustified trade retaliation by foreign nations,"


First, this situation occurred because Trump started a global trade war.
Second and just as important, the Trump administration has by it's actions, imposed a form of socialism which goes counter to both free market philosophy and capitalism.
While the liberal left was accused of and did gradually move our economic model toward a socialist model, so have supposed Republicans but from a different aspect.
Where liberal leftists 'fixed' things till they were broken, the new radical fascist alt right in the Republican ranks, breaks things in order to claim their own 'fixes'.

The result is the citizen/consumer is further taxed directly and/or through liability for the increasing debt loads these administrations generate.

And the citizenry keeps on electing both polarizing elements.


----------



## Johnny b

Not seeing a lot of commentary in the forum about the current 4000 point drop this year in the DOW.

Someone mentioned humble pie.
Was it 'tasty'? (  )

Or was a 'crow' sandwich all that was on the menu? (  )


----------



## Johnny b

America seemed to want a businessman as President.
And here we are with the 'Home Office of the USA' in shut down mode because an incompetent leader is refused funding for a capricious project and a boardroom of directors ( Congress ) too wimpy to say 'You're fired'.

America wanted a businessman for President.
But all we seemed to get was a lousy malevolent opportunist that wouldn't last long on his own reality TV show for pulling the same stunts. 

Maybe real estate developers/third rate reality TV actors don't make the best leaders of a society after all


----------



## Wino

Whilst few and far between, not all "businessmen" are grifters nor imbecils such as DJT. Hopefully, this trial by fire will cure the nation of "experimenting" when electing a POTUS - I'm not optimistic they will learn from this enormous (as in YUGE) error in judgement.


----------



## Guyzer

Johnny b said:


> * Russia 'meddled in all big social media' around US election *
> 
> Putin smiles.


um...... pardon my ignorance but imo anyone that gets their news from anti-social media is a fool.


----------



## Johnny b

Guyzer said:


> um...... pardon my ignorance but imo anyone that gets their news from anti-social media is a fool.


Indeed, agreed!

But it's a reality in the US.
Hope things go better for you guys in Canada.


----------



## Wino

Guyzer said:


> um...... pardon my ignorance but imo anyone that gets their news from anti-social media is a fool.


Never underestimate the gullibility of the average American WASP, Trump worshipers, white supremacist, Nazis, Republicans and other crazies.


----------



## Johnny b

* The real reason Trump hates Fed rate hikes *

https://finance.yahoo.com/news/real-reason-trump-hates-fed-193435519.html

Too much to copy and paste, but it's obvious there is a conflict of interest.



> every quarter point rate hike by the Fed could raise Trump's borrowing costs by more than $1 million per year. So the seven rate hikes since Trump took office may have raised his borrowing costs by at least $7 million, on a rolling basis, with the bill getting bigger as rates rise further.


What benefits Trump hurts those that try to save for their own futures.


----------



## Johnny b

A closer look:

* Trump's Tax Cut One Year Later: What Happened? *

https://www.nytimes.com/2018/12/27/us/politics/trump-tax-cuts-jobs-act.html



> Many corporations made good on promises to raise wages and pay bonuses. But others announced layoffs, even as the $1.5 trillion tax cut added billions to their bottom lines.


----------



## Johnny b

This is sure to be popular with the Federal workforce 

* Trump moves to freeze pay for federal workers amid government shutdown *

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news...pay-federal-workers-amid-shutdown/2439801002/



> Amid the current partial government shutdown, President Donald Trump signed an executive order to freeze pay for federal workers in 2019.


'Making America Great One Back-stab at a Time'


----------



## Johnny b

Making America Great = Inhumanity Trump style
Does anyone care?
Obviously not Trump and his supporters
Not the Evangelicals that grant him mulligans
Congress? if so what have they done to stop it. Nothing to not much.

Of course a segment of our society cares.
But Trump leads and followers enthusiastically obey.

So here we are, in the season of rejoicing the birth of Christ, in a nation that prides itself in being a nation of Christians... and this is one of today's headlines:

* Two migrant children recently died in Border Patrol custody. There were documented warning signs *

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news...-deaths-jakelin-caal-felipe-gomez/2436448002/



















I was never taught to treat people like wild animals.
What has changed so drastically in the Christian communities as to allow the above to happen let alone continue?


----------



## Johnny b

Welcome to Trumptonian Newspeak.
Trump blames Democrats for the abuse Trump causes.

* Trump blames child border deaths on Democrats *

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news...mes-child-border-deaths-democrats/2440175002/


----------



## Johnny b

Those 'dots' keep coalescing into a clearer picture of collusion and potentially treason.

* 'I know Putin': How a drumbeat of 2018 revelations shadows Trump's presidency *

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news...-trumps-presidency-robert-mueller/2347032002/

This is a longish article, too long with important revelations to be broken down to simple extracts.
It's about the depth and complexity of Russian and Trump relations.

Read it and consider: How many people involved in Trump's campaign did so for the best interests of our society / how many did so in the best interests for themselves and how many did so for the best interests of a foreign nation many consider an enemy?

Pretty damn chilling, imo.


----------



## Guyzer

Johnny b said:


> Indeed, agreed!
> 
> But it's a reality in the US.
> Hope things go better for you guys in Canada.


Na.... It's the same here. 
I've had Facebook " Friends " unfriend me for me pointing out some of the BS they've posted.
I'm ok with that cuz the more stupid outa my life the better.


----------



## Johnny b

The Wall.
How Trump was convinced we need it.
Why we don't need it.

* 
Where The Idea For Donald Trump's Wall Came From
*
https://www.forbes.com/sites/stuart...re-the-idea-for-donald-trumps-wall-came-from/



> Illegal entry by individuals from Mexico has plummeted by more than 90% since FY 2000, according to Border Patrol apprehensions data. Changed demographics and improved economic conditions mean large-scale illegal migration by Mexicans to the U.S. - the original public justification for building a wall - is over.
> 
> The idea for building a wall along the U.S.-Mexico border came from political consultants seeking a way to keep Donald Trump's mind focused on illegal immigration.


----------



## Johnny b

Well well well!

This is interesting.

* More coal plants shut down in Trump's first two years than in Obama's entire first term *

https://thinkprogress.org/more-coal...han-in-obamas-entire-first-term-e6b72f354330/



> The U.S. Energy Information Administration (EIA) reports that while 15 gigawatts of coal-fired plants were shut down in Obama's first four years, Trump's first two years have seen some 20 gigawatts retired (with more than two thirds of those occurring last year).
> 
> As a result, U.S. coal use dropped 4 percent in 2018 to a level not seen since 1979, according to the U.S. Energy Information Administration (EIA).
> In fact, the EIA now projects that the decline in coal consumption will speed up in 2019 - with power sector coal use forecast to drop a whopping 8 percent this year.
> 
> So what went wrong? After all, Trump had said he would end Obama's supposed "war on coal."
> 
> The answer is there never was any such war. The fundamental problem for coal was - and still is - economics, not politics. Indeed, as one leading industry analyst explained back in May, "the economics of coal have gotten worse" under Trump.
> 
> But coal also has another problem. While the administration is run by climate science deniers, including the president himself, the utility industry is increasingly reality-based.


----------



## Johnny b

What with positive proof that Trump lies about a supposed worsening immigration problem, he says he's considering to declare a national emergency to get the funding to build his wall.

*Trump is weighing declaring emergency to get border funding without Congressional approval *

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news...onal-emergency-get-border-funding/2484744002/



> President Donald Trump said Friday that he was considering declaring a national emergency to secure money for a border wall - a move that would curtail Congress on an issue that led to the ongoing government shutdown.
> 
> * "I can do it if I want." *


And that folks, is how a dictatorial malevolent opportunistic alt right fascist works.


----------



## Wino

The courts anxiously await this stupid decision.


----------



## Johnny b

*Trump tells Democrats shutdown could last for months, years as talks fail to yield deal *

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news...wall-immorality-ahead-trump-talks/2480361002/



> President Donald Trump told Democrats Friday he is prepared to allow the partial government shutdown to go on months or even years if that's what it takes to get a border wall.
> 
> "I will do whatever I have to do," Trump said at a news conference after a budget meeting that he and Democratic lawmakers described as contentious.
> 
> Democrats emerged from the meeting say the president had threatened a long shutdown if they continued to reject his demand for a wall along the U.S.-Mexico border.
> 
> Trump acknowledged telling Democrats that the shutdown could last months or years. "Absolutely I said that," he told reporters.


IMO....that really does make Trump appear to be an 'Enemy of the State'.


----------



## Johnny b

When crazy people with extremist agendas are put in power, this is one of the results........the people that provide the food for a nation wind up being put at risk and so do those dependent upon them for food sources.

* Government shutdown could wreak havoc on farmers - and the timing could hardly be worse *

https://www.usatoday.com/story/mone...utdown-farmers-agriculture-impact/2481655002/

When a nation winds up dependent upon insane/crooked politicians with extremist agendas, it's future is going to become questionable.
And now, that's where we are.


----------



## Wino

Diverting defense money to other causes isn't going to be as simple as the Stable Genius believes he can do. I suspect we're in for another Orange Scourge temper tantrum.

https://www.reed.senate.gov/news/re...gency-and-use-defense-dollars-to-pay-for-wall


----------



## Johnny b

Looks like the 'F' bomb variant seen recently is becoming popular in diplomatic circles.
Trump speaks down to those using it....but he's used it in the past, also.

Civilization takes a big hit ( imo ) as this becomes acceptable behavior.

( I'll skip the headline and post only the url )

https://www.newsweek.com/donald-tru...-time-3-days-time-canadas-first-woman-1281336

And that goes hand in hand with:

* CNN Host Breaks Out in Laughter When Trump's Chief of Staff Says Nobody Blames President for Debasing Politics *
https://www.newsweek.com/cnn-host-b...trumps-chief-staff-says-nobody-blames-1280845


----------



## Wino

Live by the sword, die by the sword. The rhetorical discourse from this presidency and the loss of decorum and respect for the position is pretty much dead because of the man currently holding the office. A pure scourge if ever there was one.


----------



## Chawbacon

Johnny b said:


> Looks like the 'F' bomb variant seen recently is becoming popular in diplomatic circles.
> Trump speaks down to those using it....but he's used it in the past, also.
> 
> Civilization takes a big hit ( imo ) as this becomes acceptable behavior.
> 
> ( I'll skip the headline and post only the url )
> 
> https://www.newsweek.com/donald-tru...-time-3-days-time-canadas-first-woman-1281336


100% agree. Regardless of the speaker's political affiliation, this type of language and discourse may be protected speech; however, it in no way brings individuals together.



Johnny b said:


> *CNN Host Breaks Out in Laughter When Trump's Chief of Staff Says Nobody Blames President for Debasing Politics *
> https://www.newsweek.com/cnn-host-b...trumps-chief-staff-says-nobody-blames-1280845


That even made me laugh!!! It is readily apparent that the most of the media, almost all Democrats, every Never Trumper, and some Republicans feel that the President is responsible (at varying levels) for the current lack of civilized dialog on political issues.


----------



## Chawbacon

Johnny b said:


> *Trump is weighing declaring emergency to get border funding without Congressional approval *
> 
> https://www.usatoday.com/story/news...onal-emergency-get-border-funding/2484744002/
> 
> And that folks, is how a dictatorial malevolent opportunistic alt right fascist works.


Have to disagree on this one. Constitutionally, the U.S. President clearly has the authority to perform this action. As long as Trump does not exceed discretionary funds allocated to the Departments that the President oversees, there is a very slim chance that a legal challenge would overturn the action, existing laws for border security, and existing legal precedence concerning border security. Well, at least outside of the 9th Circuit. 

As for Trump being a "dictatorial malevolent opportunistic alt right fascist...," if this were truly the case, the media and every elected Democrat would have been marched to a mass grave for summary execution within a month of assuming office. To ues a more realistic and less inflammatory example/question though..., Would a true dictator have placated the opposition party and the court system, by enduring 5 attempts at a travel ban? Very, very, very doubtful.


----------



## Johnny b

Chawbacon said:


> ..........................
> 
> That even made me laugh!!! It is readily apparent that the most of the media, almost all Democrats, every Never Trumper, and some Republicans feel that the President is responsible (at varying levels) for the current lack of civilized dialog on political issues.


Good one. Made me laugh too lol!
You appear to know little about the antics of Trump, not only while President, but through out most of his miserable adult life


----------



## Johnny b

Chawbacon said:


> ...............
> As for Trump being a "dictatorial malevolent opportunistic alt right fascist...," if this were truly the case,..........................


I forgot to include racist, sorry .


----------



## Johnny b

In addition, I did think of adding 'lying' but the sentence simply didn't flow well, too many adjectives (  ) so I kept it short


----------



## Wino

Johnny b said:


> In addition, I did think of adding 'lying' but the sentence simply didn't flow well, too many adjectives (  ) so I kept it short


The number of adjectives to describe The Orange Bloviator's repulsive and vile existence are endless.


----------



## Johnny b

Wino said:


> The number of adjectives to describe The Orange Bloviator's repulsive and vile existence are endless.


Indeed.
Seriously.
I could have listed misogyny and adultery. Racism. His incredibly lengthy criminal past. Abuse of bankruptcy laws.
And that's not even going into his instigation and support of the torture of people fleeing Central America seeking sanctuary.

Lying? Well....he's supposed to have a TV special focusing on that 'Wall'. No doubt much if not most of his hateful rhetoric will be refuted.

I recently read where Trump was even more unpopular than Nancy Pelosi.
That is pretty sad 
I see where our resident Trumpster realizes a majority of our citizens see Trump for what he is:


> almost all Democrats, every Never Trumper, and some Republicans feel that the President is responsible (at varying levels) for the current lack of civilized dialog on political issues.


Even many of the tweety birds don't buy into his fascist lunacy.

At the end of his term, I wonder if Trump will still be welcome at major wrestling events?


----------



## Wino

Re reference to wrestling match welcome for our fearless leader - absolutely, he will be welcomed with open arms by the low brow wrestling crowd - he acts, dresses and looks like Gorgeous George of old.


----------



## Johnny b

Wino said:


> Re reference to wrestling match welcome for our fearless leader - absolutely, he will be welcomed with open arms by the low brow wrestling crowd - he acts, dresses and looks like Gorgeous George of old.


I'm not so sure.
Many of those at that economic level are likely taking the recent economic hits more seriously given they live closer to the fringes of economic survival.
But, the question would be, whom do they recognize responsible for their plight?

The way education has deteriorated over the past few decades, the rise of facebook and twitter propaganda machines and the recent love for a retired KGB officer now leading an enemy nation......hard to tell.


----------



## Johnny b

Chawbacon said:


> Have to disagree on this one.  Constitutionally, the U.S. President clearly has the authority to perform this action. As long as Trump does not exceed discretionary funds allocated to the Departments that the President oversees, there is a very slim chance that a legal challenge would overturn the action, existing laws for border security, and existing legal precedence concerning border security. Well, at least outside of the 9th Circuit.
> .................
> 
> ..........................


Interesting spin, but rather irrelevant.
Perhaps you remember I've called Trump a liar?

This just popped up and it's data presented to Congress:

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news...ing-tie-terrorism-southern-border/2512115002/



> According to CBP data provided to Congress, the agency encountered 41 people on the Terrorist Screening Database from Oct. 1, 2017, to March 31, 2018, along the U.S.-Mexico border, with 35 of them being American citizens or lawful permanent residents and only six of them classified as non-U.S. persons.


That's 6 individuals screened as terrorists that were non-US persons.....out of Trump's claimed 4000.

There is no national emergency at our southern border other than the physical abuse ordered by Trump and his associates on immigrants seeking safety.
Trump and his supporters obviously lie.


----------



## Wino

Appears the networks will allow rebuttal to his lies tonight. I'm kinda hoping he goes for the emergency order to build his stupid wall so we can watch the wheels come off this republic he is so determined to destroy.


----------



## Johnny b

Wino said:


> Appears the networks will allow rebuttal to his lies tonight. I'm kinda hoping he goes for the emergency order to build his stupid wall so we can watch the wheels come off this republic he is so determined to destroy.


Looked like Trump intentionally dodged the National Emergency he claimed he 'could do if he wanted'.

The fact checking I heard pretty much tore apart his arguments. But that was to be expected.

About all I got out of it was his heart and soul felt badly for all the abuse he ordered on those immigrants and their children.

Fortunately for the audience, his act only went about 10 minutes. Nothing new.


----------



## Wino

DANG!! He stayed on script - that has to be a first!!!


----------



## Johnny b

Yeah 

He did look a bit squinty eyed as he read the teleprompter.....must have been a first for him lol.


----------



## Johnny b

Fact checking Trump:

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/politics/2019/01/08/fact-checks-donald-trump/2512842002/

I wonder if there is data on how many times he has repeated those lies.


----------



## Johnny b

I came across this opinion piece that does explain why Trump has a large following.

* "He's not hurting the people he needs to be": a Trump voter says the quiet part out loud *

https://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/2019/1/8/18173678/trump-shutdown-voter-florida



> A Trump voter hurt by the shutdown reveals the real reason the president attracts hardcore supporters.
> ....................
> "I voted for him, and he's the one who's doing this," Minton told Mazzei. "I thought he was going to do good things. He's not hurting the people he needs to be hurting."
> 
> * He's not hurting the people he needs to be hurting. *
> ....................
> Minton is declaring that one aim of the Trump administration is to hurt people - the right people. Making America great again, in her mind, involves inflicting pain.
> ...................
> Trump supporters don't so much love the Republican party as they hate Democrats, a phenomenon political scientists call "negative partisanship." They like Trump not because he sells them on the GOP, but because they believe he'll stick it to the Democrats harder than anyone else.


The point being:



> This is what makes Trumpism work. This is the dark heart of our political moment. Even people who are tremendously vulnerable themselves, like Crystal Minton, support Trump because of his capacity to inflict pain on others they detest. The cruelty, as the Atlantic's Adam Serwer says, is the point.


Trump's appeal is about cruelty. And he does wear it well.


----------



## Wino

That IS the republican party - has been for years since Gingrich. Plus they are enamored by ignorant, incurious candidates.


----------



## Johnny b

That's been the trend, but under Trump it's been glorified, accepted and accelerated.
The Democrats have negative elements also.

Trump was never really the liberal he once professed anymore than he's currently a Republican.
Politically, he's probably more of an agnostic whose main concern is his own status.

I think that attitude has grown in time within both political parties. Trump is merely the worst possible example.


----------



## Wino

I'm a left leaning Independent with little patience for either party. Admittedly, today there isn't a conservative or republican under the sun for which I would waste a vote. Trump is for Trump. His comment from the past regarding the republican party being so stupid is why he ran as one. I like to think that he would not have won the democratic nomination had he decided differently due to his total incompetence - but that may be wishful thinking. At any rate, Trump is the nadir of presidency.


----------



## Johnny b

Wino said:


> ....................
> 
> .................................. At any rate, Trump is the nadir of presidency.


Indeed. 
I have no doubt history will record him as the worst the US has experienced.

Well.....I get my 'mask' made tomorrow and another MRI. I've been told the treatments start in a week or two depending on scheduling.
Those around me have been advised of a potential ( most likely small ) personality change............so look out world !


----------



## Johnny b

Trump let the Puerto Ricans ( also American citizens ) suffer from a hurricane and now intends to punish California.
This is taking that Vox article I posted, to extremes.

* President Trump says he's cutting off FEMA money for California fires *

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news...d-trump-fema-california-wildfires/2523581002/

Little to nothing to help those in the above disasters while shutting down/holding hostage a large segment of the federal Government in order to fulfill a campaign promise that does little for security or improve the lives of US citizens at the cost of $5.6 Billion.

That's the character, the morality and ethics of Trumpism. :down:


----------



## Johnny b

I suspect Trump's worries about funding the Wall are pretty insignificant compared to this:

*Trump's team had over 100 contacts with Russian-linked officials, report shows *

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news...mp-team-contact-russian-officials/2530829002/

To much to copy and paste it all, but summing it up:


> Members of President Donald Trump's campaign and transition team had more than 100 contacts with Russian-linked officials, according to a new report.
> 
> The milestone illustrates the deep ties between members of Trump's circle and the Kremlin. The findings, tracked by the Center for American Progress and its Moscow Project, come amid reports that special counsel Robert Mueller is nearing the conclusion of the two-year investigation into Russian collusion in the 2016 election and possible obstruction of justice by the president.


Gee......collusion anyone?


----------



## Johnny b

Chawbacon said:


> ............................
> 
> As for Trump being a "dictatorial malevolent opportunistic alt right fascist...," if this were truly the case, the media and every elected Democrat would have been marched to a mass grave for summary execution within a month of assuming office. To ues a more realistic and less inflammatory example/question though..., Would a true dictator have placated the opposition party and the court system, by enduring 5 attempts at a travel ban? Very, very, very doubtful.


I almost forgot to address this 
Almost. 

Do you understand the difference in the meaning of the adjective 'dictatorial' and the noun 'dictator' ?

Let me help you (  )


> dic·ta·to·ri·al
> /ˌdiktəˈtôrēəl/
> adjective
> adjective: dictatorial
> 
> of or typical of a ruler with total power.
> "a dictatorial regime"
> synonyms:	autocratic, monocratic, undemocratic, totalitarian, authoritarian; More
> despotic, tyrannical, tyrannous;
> absolute, unrestricted, unlimited, unaccountable, arbitrary, omnipotent, all-powerful, supreme;
> rareautarchic, autarchical
> "he wanted to retain dictatorial leadership"
> antonyms:	democratic
> having or showing a tendency to tell people what to do in an autocratic way.
> "his dictatorial manner"
> synonyms:	tyrannical, domineering, despotic, oppressive, draconian, iron-handed, iron-fisted, imperious, lordly, magisterial, officious, overweening, overbearing, bossy, repressive, peremptory, high-handed, authoritarian, autocratic, dogmatic, high and mighty; harsh, strict, severe, rigid, inflexible, unyielding;
> informalpushy, cocky;
> rareNeronian
> "she became irritated by his dictatorial manner"


(See any resemblance to Trump? LOL! )

and now 'dictator'


> dic·ta·tor
> /ˈdikˌtādər/
> noun
> noun: dictator; plural noun: dictators
> 
> a ruler with total power over a country, typically one who has obtained control by force.
> synonyms:	autocrat, monocrat, absolute ruler; More
> tyrant, despot, oppressor, absolutist, totalitarian, authoritarian;
> informalsupremo, Big Brother;
> rareautarch
> "the country was ruled by a brutal military dictator"
> a person who behaves in an autocratic way.
> (in ancient Rome) a chief magistrate with absolute power, appointed in an emergency.
> 
> Origin
> late Middle English: from Latin, from dictat- 'dictated', from the verb dictare (see dictate).


Simply....one is a style of governing, the other is a person with absolute power.

Sadly for you, Trump doesn't have absolute power, and sadly for the rest of humanity, Trump rules in a dictatorial manner.

Now see how silly your statement becomes:


> if this were truly the case, the media and every elected Democrat would have been marched to a mass grave for summary execution within a month of assuming office.


Does that clear up your mind fog on the difference?


----------



## Johnny b

Trump's shut down of many Federal Government activities has also put many of the .gov web sites open to security issues that involve online visitors:

* U.S. Government Shutdown Leaves Its Sites Insecure, TLS Certs Expired *

https://www.bleepingcomputer.com/ne...-leaves-its-sites-insecure-tls-certs-expired/



> The websites of the U.S. Department of Justice, NASA, and the Court of Appeals are some of the ones hit by the government's failure to extend around 80 TLS certificates used on .gov domains.
> 
> *.gov websites with expired certificates on the HSTS preload list now inaccessible*


Earlier I quiped, how does Trump shutting down government services make us safer? Obviously it doesn't, won't and I expect worse to follow if Trump doesn't back off his dictatorial rampage.

(omg...I used the term 'dictatorial'. At least I didn't call him a dictator. Hope that isn't in the near future ) (  ) (  )


----------



## Johnny b

This ought to be interesting:

* Former Trump lawyer Michael Cohen to testify before Congress in February before heading to prison *

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news...er-lawyer-testify-before-congress/2539820002/



> ......scheduled to testify Feb. 7.....
> 
> "In furtherance of my commitment to cooperate and provide the American people with answers, I have accepted the invitation by Chairman Elijah Cummings to appear publicly... before the Committee on Oversight and Government Reform," Cohen told USA TODAY in a text message
> 
> "I look forward to having the privilege of being afforded a platform with which to give a full and credible account of the events which have transpired."


With the issue of collusion coming to a head with recent reports of malfeasance in the Trump campaign, perhaps the 'Wall' controversy is merely one of Trump's diversions?


----------



## Johnny b

Ekim68 posted this in the News thread.
I think it needs additional attention in discussion threads.

https://www.npr.org/2019/01/09/683642605/how-is-the-shutdown-affecting-america-let-us-count-the-ways

I could be snarky and post 'Putin Smiles', but that is exactly the point.
We now have a President that has the appearance of being elected with the help Russian interference, now weakening our society economically, morally, it's internal security off the job at a period in time when Russia is rebuilding it's influence.

Trump publicly claimed responsibility for the shut down.
It's Trump's wall, it's Trump's shut down of important government functions, and it's Trump's doing of the destruction of our society as outlined in this link:

https://www.npr.org/2019/01/09/683642605/how-is-the-shutdown-affecting-america-let-us-count-the-ways

This is what the alt-right has been arguing for since before the 2016 Presidential campaign started.

I suspect Steve Bannon is also smiling.


----------



## Johnny b

And now we go to one of Trump's henchmen, Treasury Secretary Steven Mnuchin.

* Mnuchin Defends Lifting Sanctions on Firms Tied to Putin Ally *
https://finance.yahoo.com/news/mnuchin-defends-lifting-sanctions-firms-211140380.html

It's of interest that the Russian oligarch in question was being sanctioned for interfering in the 2016 Presidential election, to the favor and advantage of Trump.

Should we do business to en-richen this enemy of the US?
Common sense suggests 'no'.

https://www.nytimes.com/2018/12/19/us/politics/sanctions-oleg-deripaska-russia-trump.html



> Representative Lloyd Doggett, a Texas Democrat who has criticized the administration for being soft on Rusal, said the move to lift sanctions amounted to Mr. Trump "sliding another big gift under Vladimir Putin's Christmas tree," referring to the Russian president.
> 
> Saying that the plan "appears to be a shell game brokered by a sanctioned Russian bank, VTB Bank, involving one of Putin's closest buddies, Oleg Deripaska," Mr. Doggett said it "only encourages Putin to pursue his destabilizing activities around the world."
> 
> He called for a rigorous congressional review of the deal, and said that if it "is what it appears - a Rusal ruse - then we should reject this latest Trump scam."


Scam? A sellout? Or more like both.


----------



## Johnny b

It's apparently that time of the day and Trump has again changed his mind on how to screw us over concerning the wall.

* Shutdown: Trump says he's not looking to declare emergency for border wall 'right now'*

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news...emergency-declaration-border-wall/2544632002/

Apparently the Democrats didn't blink.
I guess he's going to have to read up on his book, The Art of the Deal' in order to figure out what to do next


----------



## Wino

Appears now they are quietly giving a pass to various closed departments to operate cause it's starting to look bad for Orange Slime's shutdown.

As for him reading "The Art of the Deal", it would require he have a longer attention span than a normal cocker spaniel. Had he ACTUALLY written the book, he wouldn't have to read it now.


----------



## Johnny b

Those that support Trump's wall.......Mo Brooks and their rejection of facts.

* Mo Brooks's CNN interview shows how detached from reality Trump's GOP has become *
https://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/2019/1/11/18178797/mo-brooks-cnn-border-wall-trump



> Rep. Mo Brooks (R-AL) is totally supportive of President Donald Trump's border wall, including the possibility that Trump will declare a national emergency in hopes of building it without congressional approval. But during a CNN interview on Friday, Brooks revealed that his position, like Trump's, isn't rooted in the facts.





> Berman's producers displayed the following chart, which, using data from the libertarian Cato Institute, shows that undocumented immigrants commit crimes at lower rates than native-born Americans.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> "That's false. That's false," Brooks said. "I have looked at those studies, and you want political propaganda, you go ahead and use it!"
> 
> Later, Berman highlighted another graphic suggesting that the number of unauthorized border crossings has in fact steadily declined over the past decade
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> "I disagree with that data you have thrown out there," he said, without specifying what exactly he disagreed with.
> 
> Brooks also said he would support Trump if he declares a national emergency in an attempt to build the wall without congressional approval, even though he signed an amicus brief in 2015 that criticized then-President Barack Obama's use of executive authority.


The above has played out in this forum with much the same results ......denial of reality.


----------



## Johnny b

Wino said:


> Appears now they are quietly giving a pass to various closed departments to operate cause it's starting to look bad for Orange Slime's shutdown.
> 
> As for him reading "The Art of the Deal", it would require he have a longer attention span than a normal cocker spaniel. Had he ACTUALLY written the book, he wouldn't have to read it now.


It wouldn't do him any good.

This popped up and I remembered your post and thought it appropriate to post the thoughts of those that worked with Trump back in the day, when Trump claimed he was so great.

* Former Trump Organization VP Spills Beans On Donald Trump's Awful Dealmaking Skills *
https://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/donald-trump-terrible-negotiator_us_5c386d28e4b045f6768ae1f1



> "It is always someone else's fault."
> 
> I never thought he was a great dealmaker
> 
> "most of the deals in that book were failures."
> 
> "And the number of deals he's made over the years since then have overwhelmingly been failures," Schwartz added. He said Trump was "really one of the worst" dealmakers he's ever come across.


----------



## Wino

His pseudo deal making abilities are now quietly and overtly shown to be non-existent. Since becoming POTUS he's broken more deals than made and his NAFTA replacement is more a name change than anything consequential. In short "The Donald" is a LOSER !!


----------



## Johnny b

Wino said:


> ...................
> 
> ....................... In short "The Donald" is a LOSER !!


Indeed!

And now he's whining about being all alone in the Oval Office over the weekends, which he's calling Congressional 'vacations'.

* Trump wants credit for staying at the White House over weekends while the shutdown drags on *
https://www.vox.com/2019/1/12/18180047/trump-tweets-white-house-shutdown



> I am all alone (poor me) in the White House waiting for the Democrats to come back and make a deal on desperately needed Border Security. At some point the Democrats not wanting to make a deal will cost our Country more money than the Border Wall we are all talking about. Crazy!
> - Donald J. Trump (@realDonaldTrump) December 24, 2018
> 
> ...................
> 
> TRUMP: If you don't have a barrier, whether it's a steel barrier or a concrete wall, substantial and strong, you never are going to solve this problem. You are never going to solve - and I don't need this.
> 
> Look, I could have done something a lot easier. I could have enjoyed myself. I haven't left the White House because I'm waiting for them to come over in a long time. You know that. I stayed home for Christmas. I stayed at the White House for New Year's.
> ......................
> 
> I just watched a Fake reporter from the Amazon Washington Post say the White House is "chaotic, there does not seem to be a strategy for this Shutdown. There is no plan." The Fakes always like talking Chaos, there is NONE. In fact, there's almost nobody in the W.H. but me, and...
> - Donald J. Trump (@realDonaldTrump) January 12, 2019
> 
> ......................
> 
> I am in the White House waiting for the Democrats to come on over and make a deal on Border Security. From what I hear, they are spending so much time on Presidential Harassment that they have little time left for things like stopping crime and our military!
> - Donald J. Trump (@realDonaldTrump) December 29, 2018


However:



> So far, Trump's meetings with congressional leaders have dissolved in chaotic tantrums. He's stormed out of meetings, got into a shouting match on TV, and gone on profanity-laden rant while repeatedly referring to the shutdown as a "strike." He took a trip to the southern border, where he paraded Border Patrol agents as props for his photo ops pushing for the wall.


Poor guy, his life must be pretty tough 
And yeah....a real deal maker


----------



## Johnny b

Insanity rules the Trump Administration. Or is it merely the directives from Putin?

An enemy nation installs an American President that cozys up to the Russians that installed him, starts a worthless bromance with the Dictator of North Korea, breaks trade treaties with allies while insulting and threatening them, breaks a nuclear treaty with Iran and now his National Security Council plans a war with Iran.

Our foreign policies are obviously in the toilet since Trump became President.

* National Security Council asked for military options to strike Iran, report says *
https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/politics/2019/01/13/john-bolton-iran-strike-plans/2563890002/


----------



## Johnny b

The other 'Trump Tower', a Trump linked to Putin and the email claims against H Clinton to tilt the election in favor of Trump......connected.

* Congress now interested in that other Trump Tower once planned for Russia *
https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/co...other-trump-tower-once-planned-russia-n954801



> Two Congressional aides told NBC News Trump's proposed Moscow development with Aras Agalarov is drawing new scrutiny from House and Senate investigators.
> ................
> The Russians dubbed the proposed suburban development "Manhattan," and a "Trump Tower" would have been its centerpiece, according to congressional testimony and news reports.
> 
> Trump's partner in this earlier project was Aras Agalarov, an oligarch with close ties to Russian President Vladimir Putin, and the same man whose promise of dirt on Hillary Clinton set in motion the infamous June 2016 meeting at the original Trump Tower in New York.





> "For the record, I have ZERO investments in Russia," Trump tweeted in July 2016.
> ..............
> He also said, "I have nothing to with Russia. I have nothing to do with Russia - for anything."


BUT! Sure looks like he's tried 
And no doubt there is still much to find out .


----------



## Johnny b

I find news reports like the following very disturbing.
Yes, I understand leaders of nations do sometimes need to discuss sensitive topics in private. Ongoing negotiations could be side tracked if publicized.

But, when high ranking officials are kept out, it becomes curious and with proof that Putin's Russia did interfere in our Presidential election with the appearance of collusion with Trump , it becomes suspicious.
Evan more so when it happens 5 times when Trump and Putin have met.
And having the interpreter's notes destroyed only adds to the mistrust.

* President Trump went to 'extraordinary lengths' to hide details of Putin meetings, report says *
https://www.usatoday.com/story/news...-putin-meetings-interpreter-notes/2565471002/



> No detailed record exists from five of Trump's interactions with the Russian leader since taking office
> ................
> "When he takes the interpreter's notes and wants to destroy them so no one can see what was said in written transcript, you know it raises serious questions about the relationship between this president and Putin," Sen. Dick Durbin said Sunday on ABC's "This Week."
> 
> Sen. Mark Warner, D-Va., said if the Post's report is accurate, Trump "broke all protocol.


We are now in the longest gov't shutdown and our security has been weakened. By Trump.
The purpose of a government is to protect the health and security of a society.
Under Trump, that is declining.


----------



## Johnny b

It's '1984' and the official language is DoubleSpeak.

* Trump Adviser Suggests Unpaid Government Workers Are 'Better Off' During Shutdown *
https://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/kevin-hassett-government-shutdown_us_5c3be402e4b01c93e00b0640



> White House economic adviser Kevin Hassett said some furloughed workers didn't have to use their vacation days over the holidays.
> ............
> "A huge share of government workers were going to take vacation days, say, between Christmas and New Year's," Hassett said during a "PBS Newshour" interview. "And then we have a shutdown, and so they can't go to work, and so then they have the vacation, but they don't have to use their vacation days. And then they come back, and then they get their back pay."
> 
> He continued: "Then they're, in some sense, they're better off."


'We bring you relief by destroying your lives'
Sounds like that's going to be the new Trumptonian party platform


----------



## Johnny b

So....just how well has that trade war with China improved the trade balance?

Here's a Wall Street Journel article addressing just how well Trump's 'Let's make a deal' is working out.

* China's Annual Trade Surplus With U.S. Hits Record Despite Trump's Tariff Offensive *
https://www.wsj.com/articles/chinas...d-despite-trumps-tariff-offensive-11547439977



> China's trade surplus with the U.S. hit a record last year, as robust American demand for Chinese goods undercut the Trump administration's tariff offensive aimed at narrowing the countries' lopsided trade gap.
> 
> China recorded $323.32 billion in surplus with the U.S. in 2018, representing a 17% jump from the figure in the previous year, according to Chinese government trade data released Monday.


Apparently the trade war wasn't doing enough damage to the US economy so Trump shut down the government 

I wonder what's next?


----------



## Johnny b

Trump and Putin have secret meetings with all records destroyed and this is suddenly added to suspicions:

* Trump repeatedly mulled leaving NATO military alliance, report claims *
https://www.usatoday.com/story/news...ing-nato-military-alliance-report/2578184002/



> The revelation that the president did not see the point of the alliance and discussed withdrawing from it last year, reported in the New York Times on Monday evening, comes amid allegations that Trump deliberately concealed details of his meetings with Russian President Vladimir Putin, even from his own aides.
> ....................
> A weakened NATO is one of Putin's major geopolitical goals.





> President Donald Trump is issuing a staunch denial Monday that he ever worked for Russia,


The problem with Trump's denial is that it's more than just common knowledge he lies a lot, he demonstrates it frequently by denying he's made public claims that everyone had already been able to see and hear. 
Trump has no honor, his words are worthless.


----------



## Johnny b

An OpEd:
Telling it like it is........and backing up the claim.

* Donald Trump and His Team of Morons *
https://www.nytimes.com/2019/01/14/opinion/government-shutdown-trump.html



> the point isn't that people in Trump's circle don't care about ordinary American families, and also talk nonsense - that's only to be expected. What's amazing is that they're so out of it that they don't know either how to pretend to care about the middle class, or what nonsense to spout in order to sustain that pretense............
> 
> So what's wrong with Trump's people? Why can't they serve up even some fake populism?
> 
> There are, I think, two answers, one generic to modern conservatism, one specific to Trump.
> 
> On the generic point: To be a modern conservative is to spend your life inside what amounts to a cult, barely exposed to outside ideas or even ways of speaking. Inside that cult, contempt for ordinary working Americans is widespread
> ...............
> Then there's the Trump effect.
> ............
> Trump's presidency, however, is so chaotic, corrupt and potentially compromised by his foreign entanglements that anyone associated with him gets tainted
> .......................
> So who is willing to serve him at this point? Only those with no reputation to lose
> ...............
> There are, no doubt, conservatives smart and self-controlled enough to lie plausibly, or at least preserve some deniability, and defend Trump's policies without making fools of themselves. But those people have gone into hiding.


The Trump administration is almost like a 'ship of fools'

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ship_of_fools


----------



## Wino

A plain old simple Kakistocracy bordering on Idiocracy.


----------



## Johnny b

There are so many news reports presenting the same negatives of the Trump administration, as a group, they would swamp this forum.

But this OpEd spells it out clearly in the last paragraph.

* Donald Trump has been compromised by Russia *

https://www.bostonglobe.com/opinion...ised-russia/V66kiNZWtOE8T9UrfNYJwK/story.html



> Over the next several weeks, Mueller will likely fill in the blanks, but the larger picture will be unchanged. The president of the United States has for the past two years - and in plain sight - been a de facto agent of the Russian government. No matter what Mueller ends up revealing, that fact will not change, and America will have to come to grips with how we allowed this to happen.


----------



## Johnny b

* Democrats demand investigation after report that Trump ordered Michael Cohen to lie to Congress *

https://www.washingtonpost.com/nati...congress-about-russian-project/?noredirect=on



> Democratic leaders reacted with fury and demanded an investigation late Thursday following a new report that President Trump personally directed his former attorney, Michael Cohen, to lie to Congress about the president's push for a lucrative condo project in Moscow in the lead-up to the 2016 election.


* ".....Trump personally directed his former attorney, Michael Cohen, to lie to Congress ......"*
All that from the guy that kept yelling 'Jail Hillary' 

And now, like we hadn't realized, Rudy is trying to sell imaginary 'bridges':


> Rudolph W. Giuliani, Trump's attorney, responded to the report by saying, "If you believe Cohen I can get you a great deal on the Brooklyn Bridge."


Rudy said recently:


> if "the collusion happened, it happened a long time ago."


Is that in weeks or months?
Or still going on?

How times have changed. I remember a time when Republican leadership was opposed to Russian domination.


----------



## Johnny b

Here's a thought.....perhaps Rudy Giuliani is our version of a 'Baghdad Bob'?

Maybe he should be nicknamed Rushin' Rudy


----------



## Littlefield

MSM is going nuts over unsubstantiated speculation if’s from BuzzFeed News !
If Trump is that stupid he deserves to be impeached. LOL


----------



## Johnny b

Rushin' Rudy ...... a tale of Trumptonian denials, fake claim of H Clinton 'collusion' with Russians and apparently redefining the term 'collusion' so that it doesn't mean *" secret or illegal cooperation or conspiracy, especially in order to cheat or deceive others."*

* Rudy Giuliani Backs Off Remarks on Potential Collusion by Trump Aides
*
https://www.nytimes.com/2019/01/17/us/politics/giuliani-collusion.html



> Mr. Giuliani also went a bit further on the collusion defense, telling Fox, "Even if he did it, *it's not a crime*."


----------



## Johnny b

Littlefield said:


> MSM is going nuts over unsubstantiated speculation if's from BuzzFeed News !
> If Trump is that stupid he deserves to be impeached. LOL


No if about it LOL!


----------



## Johnny b

Make America Great Again = Trump is about to clobber the auto industry



*Trump is about to clobber the auto industry *
https://finance.yahoo.com/news/trump-is-about-to-clobber-the-auto-industry-131337763.html



> The possibility of new tariffs on nearly $200 billion worth of automotive imports, which would kill jobs and send car prices soaring if Trump imposes them.
> 
> Last year, Trump directed the Commerce Department to investigate whether automotive imports pose a threat to national security, with a report due no later than Feb. 17 of this year. If the report finds cause for concern-as everybody expects-it would give Trump the authority to impose tariffs within 90 days. And he has already proposed a 25% tariff on imported autos.
> 
> The premise is ridiculous
> ...............
> 
> If Trump did impose the tariffs, it would immediately hit the economy. "A 25% tariff could lead to a decline in sales volume larger than what a recession would produce," says Jonathan Smoke, chief economist at Cox Automotive, owner of Kelley Blue Book and other services. "It could be autos that create the next recession."


...................



> If Trump is that stupid ......


Stupid or intentional, the results would be about the same.


----------



## Wino

Stole these off a UTube news feed response.

(T)reasonous (R)epugnant (U)nstable (M)oronic (P)sychopath

MAGA : MOSCOW AGENT GOVERNING AMERICA


----------



## Littlefield

Special Counsel spokesman Peter Carr: “BuzzFeed’s description of specific statements to the Special Counsel’s Office, and characterization of documents and testimony obtained by this office, regarding Michael Cohen’s Congressional testimony are not accurate.”
LOL


----------



## Johnny b

Shame on them........

That's one, what is Trumps score?.......LOL!


----------



## Wino

Don't rush to judgement - Mueller said the report was not "accurate", he didn't say it was not "true".

I suspect the odds are 99.9% that he did tell lawyer to lie in some fashion or thru intermediaries. Frankly, if Turnip says it's false, it's not.


----------



## Johnny b

Wino said:


> ................................
> 
> Frankly, if Turnip says it's false, it's not.




True that.


----------



## Chawbacon

Johnny b said:


> There are so many news reports presenting the same negatives of the Trump administration, as a group, they would swamp this forum.
> 
> But this OpEd spells it out clearly in the last paragraph.
> 
> * Donald Trump has been compromised by Russia *
> 
> https://www.bostonglobe.com/opinion...ised-russia/V66kiNZWtOE8T9UrfNYJwK/story.html





> Over the next several weeks, Mueller will likely fill in the blanks, but the larger picture will be unchanged. *The president of the United States has for the past two years - and in plain sight - been a de facto agent of the Russian government. No matter what Mueller ends up revealing, that fact will not change, *and America will have to come to grips with how we allowed this to happen.


Hello all! Phew! Took awhile to catch up on all the Trump Derangement Syndrome going on in this thread. 

While skimming over the posts, this one jumped out at me. The above quote, especially the blue text, shows a disturbing mindset that the liberal media is pushing. It bothers me that if (and this is a big IF)... IF the Muller report should completely exonerate President Trump from Russian collusion, the liberal media is telling the public to continue believing that President Trump is a Russian agent. It looks like the press has reached a new all-time low.


----------



## Wino

Chawbacon said:


> ............................................ It looks like the press has reached a new all-time low.


Yes, I remember hearing that same comment during Watergate. We all know how that turned out - _"nattering nabobs of negativism." _


----------



## Chawbacon

Wino said:


> Yes, I remember hearing that same comment during Watergate. We all know how that turned out - _"nattering nabobs of negativism." _


I am not sure how that relates to the issue of President Trump and the alleged Russian collusion. 
I was not alive during the Nixon presidency; however, IF the press was making the same outlandish accusations of assumed guilt, regardless of an investigative outcome, then the press has equaled their all-time low.


----------



## Wino

The parallels between Watergate and Trump today is almost a replay in regards to the lying coming out of the WH. Nixon says he wasn't a crook, Trump says he didn't collude, isn't a Russian useful tool and doesn't kowtow to Putin. Nixon, it turns out was quite the crook and I expect the same results with Orange Man. The biggest or largest difference is Nixon wasn't a totally incompetent president and actually did some good for the nation. If OM ever does, it will be by accident, not purpose.


----------



## Johnny b

Chawbacon said:


> Hello all! Phew! Took awhile to catch up on all the Trump Derangement Syndrome going on in this thread.
> 
> While skimming over the posts, this one jumped out at me. The above quote, especially the blue text, shows a disturbing mindset that the liberal media is pushing. It bothers me that if (and this is a big IF)... IF the Muller report should completely exonerate President Trump from Russian collusion, the liberal media is telling the public to continue believing that President Trump is a Russian agent. It looks like the press has reached a new all-time low.





> Hello all! Phew! Took awhile to catch up on all the Trump Derangement Syndrome going on in this thread.


You'd sound a lot more sincere if you'd wave the American flag as hard as you can patriotically..........LOL!



> While skimming over the posts, this one jumped out at me. The above quote, especially the blue text, shows a disturbing mindset that the liberal media is pushing.


The most disturbing aspect of it is, it's closer to the truth than any commentary from Rushin' Rudy or his boss.
Really now, do you expect Trump's political opponents to sit on the sidelines and be silent while Trump spews lie after lie and puts the security of the US at risk?
Well.....main stream news just happens to report on it.
That's a Trumpian problem in a free and democratic society.



> IF the Muller report should completely exonerate President Trump from Russian collusion,.....


LOL!
You mean...." If wishes were wings, pigs could fly ' kind of " IF " 



> the liberal media is telling the public to continue believing that President Trump is a Russian agent.


Reality is certainly difficult for you Trumptonians as more and more of Trump's involvement is exposed.
All I'm reading above is a lot of whining


----------



## Johnny b

Wino said:


> The parallels between Watergate and Trump today is almost a replay in regards to the lying coming out of the WH. Nixon says he wasn't a crook, Trump says he didn't collude, isn't a Russian useful tool and doesn't kowtow to Putin. Nixon, it turns out was quite the crook and I expect the same results with Orange Man. The biggest or largest difference is Nixon wasn't a totally incompetent president and actually did some good for the nation. If OM ever does, it will be by accident, not purpose.


With all the faults of Nixon, and there were many, he never intentionally did harm to the US for the advantage of a foreign enemy.
Trump certainly appears to have an opposite agenda. And it keeps on becoming more and more obvious.


----------



## Johnny b

Chawbacon said:


> I am not sure how that relates to the issue of President Trump and the alleged Russian collusion.
> I was not alive during the Nixon presidency; however, IF the press was making the same outlandish accusations of assumed guilt, regardless of an investigative outcome, then the press has equaled their all-time low.


What?

There was no "IF"
Nixon's plight was accurately depicted in the news media.
He was a crook. 
Think Bebe Rebozo.
And he tried to get away with stealing an election using stolen Democrat strategy documents. And then lied about it. And then tried an abuse of power in concealing his lies.
He got what he deserved, but he never sought power or influence from an enemy of the US.
As far as I know, Trump is the first President of the US to be installed as president by an enemy nation.


----------



## Chawbacon

Amazing, at how some individuals have difficulty processing nuance. 

Let us get a couple of things straight. 

1. Not a Trumptonian (as I think Johnny puts it).  To many things that I do not agree with him on. 
2. So far, there is not enough concrete evidence to convict President Trump of Russian collusion. 
3. If concrete evidence is revealed, I have no problem with reveling in your collective TDS on this issue. 
4. Any time the press tries to dictate to the public how they should think and act, the actions of said press leaves journalism behind and devolves into political ravings.


----------



## Johnny b

Chawbacon said:


> Amazing, at how some individuals have difficulty processing nuance.
> 
> Let us get a couple of things straight.
> 
> 1. Not a Trumptonian (as I think Johnny puts it).  To many things that I do not agree with him on.
> 2. So far, there is not enough concrete evidence to convict President Trump of Russian collusion.
> 3. If concrete evidence is revealed, I have no problem with reveling in your collective TDS on this issue.
> 4. Any time the press tries to dictate to the public how they should think and act, the actions of said press leaves journalism behind and devolves into political ravings.


1. I'd deny it too LOL!

2. That's what the investigation is about. You know. The one you Trumptonians want to stop.

3. You are obviously confused.

4. Dictate? Who ever made a Trumpite ever read or accept reality? Well, unless the version came from Trump himself, Fox News or Alex Jones <snicker>


----------



## Johnny b

Wino said:


> Don't rush to judgement - Mueller said the report was not "accurate", he didn't say it was not "true".
> 
> I suspect the odds are 99.9% that he did tell lawyer to lie in some fashion or thru intermediaries. Frankly, if Turnip says it's false, it's not.


I almost was going to post this is amazing how Rushin' Rudy's claims have changed, but it's been a common example lately rather than the exception.

Rudy does the backpedal:

* Giuliani says Trump might have talked to Cohen about testimony *
https://www.cnn.com/2019/01/20/politics/rudy-giuliani-trump-cohen-cnntv/index.html



> President Donald Trump's attorney Rudy Giuliani argued Sunday he did not know for sure if Trump spoke with Michael Cohen about his congressional testimony, but that it would not have been significant if Trump did.


I feel some lack of confidence in Rudy's position. 



> "I don't know if it happened or didn't happen. It may be attorney-client privilege if it happened, where I can't acknowledge it. But I have no knowledge that he spoke to him, but I'm telling you I wasn't there then," Giuliani said on CNN's "State of the Union" with Jake Tapper.


That's right, Rudy wasn't there then and I see imagery of rats leaving a sinking ship and a new legal team on the horizon. Time will tell.



> He continued, "So what if he talked to him about it?"
> Giuliani said as far as he knew, Trump had not had discussions with Cohen where Trump "told him or counseled him to lie."


Imagine that. (rhetorical  )
Trump's legal team had to build a "Chinese Wall "( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chinese_wall  ) between themselves and Trump in order to represent their client 

Oh my, Rudy. Look at the mess you got yourself involved in.


----------



## Johnny b

A legal opinion from a notable conservative Republican attorney, George Conway

(George who?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_T._Conway_III
excerpt:
an American attorney and a graduate of Harvard College and Yale Law School. He clerked for a judge on the U.S. Court of Appeals for the Second Circuit before becoming a partner at Wachtell, Lipton, Rosen & Katz. )

https://www.huffingtonpost.com/entr...-perfectly-insane_us_5c450129e4b027c3bbc2dc1b


> Critics erupted Sunday after Rudy Giuliani insisted that any discussion that may have occurred between President Donald Trump and Michael Cohen concerning Cohen's testimony before Congress would be "perfectly normal." George Conway, the husband of top White House aide Kellyanne Conway, blasted it as "perfectly insane" for the potential target of an investigation to be talking about testimony with a witness.


----------



## Johnny b

Most favorite President.......Ha!


----------



## Johnny b

But what about Pence?

* Pence's shocking use of Martin Luther King's words *
https://www.cnn.com/2019/01/20/opinions/mike-pence-shocking-use-of-mlk-words-zelizer/index.html

Incredible spin. Totally absurd comparison.
And with a straight face. Something Trump isn't capable of.

Too much to copy and paste.

Something has gone terribly wrong in our society where professed Christians elected to office have become leading 'haters' and would claim such distortions as in that article, as positive political leadership.


----------



## Johnny b

Is the bromance over?
Unrequited love, anyone? 

* New CSIS report reveals another of 20 undisclosed North Korean missile sites *

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news...s-csis-report-secret-missile-base/2641579002/

No doubt the Trumpites will call this a win in the diplomatic column 

Really....was that unexpected of NK?
It's what they do.


----------



## Johnny b

Again, Trump twists reality for his own fakery.

* Trump backs students from Lincoln memorial confrontation *
https://www.cbsnews.com/news/trump-backs-students-from-lincoln-memorial-confrontation/

If you haven't followed the progression of events around this confrontation, Trump's claims of fake news might stick if it weren't for his reputation for being a story teller of lies.

From the above article:


> Nick Sandmann and the students of Covington have become symbols of Fake News and how evil it can be. They have captivated the attention of the world, and I know they will use it for the good - maybe even to bring people together. It started off unpleasant, but can end in a dream!
> - Donald J. Trump (@realDonaldTrump) January 22, 2019


What I read and saw reported was first, the false claim against the students followed hours later by a video showing the event from a better perspective.

First. I could not hear the claimed chant, 'Build the Wall', in either the first video or the latter.
Neither video appeared to be recorded by newsmen.
The mother of the student in question claimed the problem was coming from 'Black Muslims'. They were black men but definitely not Muslim as they were yelling and professing claims obviously out of a Christian-Judaic source and including racist commentary.
Then there is the Native American and his gang of followers that barged into the already excited crowd to essentially try to shout down the students with drum beats and chanting.

This is what our society is coming to....hate fests...and it's intensified by the head of the current gov't administration.

Haters from ....a Black religious group, students too ignorant to realize they were being played, to expose their emotions and Native Americans trying to impose their will at a rally.

The only innocent in that confrontation was the student at the center of it that stood still while Native Americans chanted and yelled at him in noises English speaking people wouldn't understand.
And even his mother showed her own bias.

I read and saw that all within one day and here is the most incredulous of liars claiming 'fake news':



> Nick Sandmann and the students of Covington have become symbols of Fake News and how evil it can be.


It's rather obvious to me, the biggest hater in DC is intentionally dividing our society further into opposing hostile hate groups.

That rally is an example of what Trumptonian goals are. Divide and weaken our society.

:down:

Moral leadership strives to solve problems, not intentionally create more for political advantage.
:down: with the Russian intervention and the man they put in the Oval Office.


----------



## Chawbacon

Johnny b said:


> A legal opinion from a notable conservative Republican attorney, George Conway
> 
> (George who?
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_T._Conway_III
> excerpt:
> an American attorney and a graduate of Harvard College and Yale Law School. He clerked for a judge on the U.S. Court of Appeals for the Second Circuit before becoming a partner at Wachtell, Lipton, Rosen & Katz. )
> 
> https://www.huffingtonpost.com/entr...-perfectly-insane_us_5c450129e4b027c3bbc2dc1b


Ok. To put this the perspective of reality... George is a staunch anti-Trumper, so his opinion must be evaluated through that filter of hatred. However, *IF* (Not sure about the current status of this accusation.) President Trump, or his legal team, talked to Mr. Cohen concerning his upcoming testimony, then I have to agree with George.


----------



## Johnny b

Chawbacon said:


> Ok. To put this the perspective of reality... George is a staunch anti-Trumper, so his opinion must be evaluated through that filter of hatred. However, *IF* (Not sure about the current status of this accusation.) President Trump, or his legal team, talked to Mr. Cohen concerning his upcoming testimony, then I have to agree with George.


You forgot ...you mean as your opinion as a Trump supporter LOL!
Which has seen a lot of filtering in this forum


----------



## Chawbacon

Johnny b said:


> I read and saw that all within one day and here is the most incredulous of liars claiming 'fake news':
> 
> It's rather obvious to me, the biggest hater in DC is intentionally dividing our society further into opposing hostile hate groups.
> 
> That rally is an example of what Trumptonian goals are. Divide and weaken our society.


Hey Johnny, I agree with you that the Kentucky school kids were the individuals behaving as adults in the face of such obvious racial/political harassment originating with the Black Hebrew Israelites and the American Indian native - Nick Sandman.

The Fake News accusation though is apparent with the overreaction from the media and liberal socialites without learning the facts. Then after learning the facts, many of the media organizations and most of the socialites refused to apologize for their slanderous comments, and instead continued to blame the Kentucky students as the instigators for simply wearing MAGA hats, or only deleted social media comments without any acknowledgement of remorse for falsely accusing the children involved. The media outlets that have apologized by stating that the situation was "more complicated than originally though" without correcting the record is a truly deplorable action.


----------



## Chawbacon

Johnny b said:


> You forgot ...you mean as your opinion as a Trump supporter LOL!
> Which has seen a lot of filtering in this forum


YUP! Cannot deny that I do support Trump on many issues.


----------



## Johnny b

Chawbacon said:


> Hey Johnny, I agree with you that the Kentucky school kids were the individuals behaving as adults in the face of such obvious racial/political harassment originating with the Black Hebrew Israelites and the American Indian native - Nick Sandman.
> 
> The Fake News accusation though is apparent with the overreaction from the media and liberal socialites without learning the facts. Then after learning the facts, many of the media organizations and most of the socialites refused to apologize for their slanderous comments, and instead continued to blame the Kentucky students as the instigators for simply wearing MAGA hats, or only deleted social media comments without any acknowledgement of remorse for falsely accusing the children involved. The media outlets that have apologized by stating that the situation was "more complicated than originally though" without correcting the record is a truly deplorable action.


I only followed the major online news sites. But I did see them present that second video that obviously told a more accurate account, in short order.
There were groups bent on making something out of it other than what really happened.
And I didn't see 'that many' red hats in the youth group. They merely stuck out because they're red.
I think the confrontation was complicated when not listing the events as the crowd reacted, and yet pretty simple taken as a whole.
Our society has elements becoming unstable.

And my point is that leadership is not acting in a calming factor for the various factions that are radicalized. That includes the far left and far right.


----------



## Johnny b

Mike Pesca of Slate Magazine had this to say about the Lincoln Memorial confrontation and presented much more clearly that all the buffoonery of politicians and their claims of fake news media reporting or the reactionaries on the left with their own accusations:

* Covington Boys: The Difference Between Jerks and Monsters *

https://slate.com/news-and-politics/2019/01/covington-catholic-the-scandal-that-isnt-a-scandal.html

Too much to copy and paste, but this is the general idea:



> The clash between the rowdy teens of Covington Catholic and the stoic drumming of Native American activist Nathan Phillips is a perfect Magarorschach test-that's when you somehow work an image of a MAGA hat into one of Hermann Rorschach's original inkblots.* The standoff and resulting social media meltdown syncs with America's fault-lines better than any meme or post dreamt up by the fanciest of bears working inside the Russian disinformation machine.
> 
> As good as that machine has become at inflaming America, it has nothing on Americans ourselves.
> 
> ............
> 
> It had everything: Trump, white kids, a Native American elder, black cultists in the background throwing anti-gay invective, abortion, (remember, the teens were there for the March for Life), and forensic videography. The only way it would have been more polarizing would be if the footage had been found on Anthony Weiner's hard drive.


----------



## Johnny b

Chawbacon said:


> ................
> 
> The Fake News accusation though is apparent with the overreaction from the media and liberal socialites without learning the facts. ........................


The push back you encounter is from making statements that appear as absolutes.
There are 'news outlets' that are obviously biased and need to be compared to main stream media for correctness.
Huffington Post is one of the liberal examples, but certainly doesn't scale to the extremes of your favorite, Alex Jones and Prison Planet (  ).

Saw this link to Huff Post this morning and they obviously presented the initial distorted version with more 'weight' than the comprehensive video published.

https://www.huffingtonpost.com/entr...guthrie-interview_us_5c4a1215e4b0e1872d422186

A point, they didn't create the fake news, they reported a version given to them that was essentially distorted to present a fabricated controversy.
'News' sources like AJ simply fake it themselves ( LOL!  )

But of course, there are lefties out there that fake news, also.
That's why it's important to read many sources deemed reputable.
And Trump doesn't want you to do that 
Trump has even been quoted as saying Fake news is anything he does not agree with.

Of interest in that Huff Post, it appears that Native American was not a Vietnam Veteran as has been claimed in many reports.


> Guthrie questioned Phillips' veteran status during the interview because of previous reports falsely stating he was a Vietnam veteran. Phillips responded that he was in the Marine Corps Reserve during that time and that "what I've always said is I've never stepped foot in South Vietnam."


.


----------



## Johnny b

Seems the Republican controlled Senate can't agree on shutdown/spending bills.

*Shutdown continues: Senate blocks bills to fund government amid fight over Trump border wall*

https://www.cnbc.com/2019/01/24/senate-votes-on-government-shutdown-and-trump-border-wall-bill.html

Looks like the hero in the book 'Art of the Deal' is practicing the 'Art of the Wail' (  )


----------



## Johnny b

Trump has claimed he's hard on Russian concerning sanctions. Harder than previous Presidents.
I posted to this several month's ago.
By law, Trump was to sign off on sanctions against Russia related to the Skripal poisoning.
But he hasn't and the deadline for the Russians becoming responsive and responsible passed in November.

Trump is obviously soft on Russian transgressions.

* Trump Administration Neglects to Implement Required Russia Sanctions, Saying There's 'No Deadline' *

https://www.newsweek.com/trump-required-russia-sanctions-no-deadline-1304549

Perhaps a request from Trump's Boss, Vladimir Putin? (  )


----------



## Johnny b

Surprise surprise 

Another one for the history books and criminal charges.

* Roger Stone indictment: Top takeaways from the 24-page report *

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news...s-indictment-donald-trump-adviser/2675841002/



> The 24-page, seven-count indictment against Roger Stone accuses the longtime Donald Trump adviser of making false statements, witness tampering and obstruction in an alleged attempt to throw off investigators regarding his communications with the Trump campaign over WikiLeaks' dissemination of stolen emails from the Hillary Clinton campaign.
> 
> While it does not mention WikiLeaks by name, referring to the group instead as "Organization 1," the indictment makes clear that the outfit, headed by Julian Assange, is at the heart of the case.


And the circle tightens around you know who LOL!
Looks like stripes might be the coming fashion statement in DC at the highest of levels 

Copy of the indictment:

https://assets.documentcloud.org/documents/5694738/Stone-Indictment-012419.txt

Donald Trump no longer knows Roger Stone (  )

*Donald Trump's White House distances itself from Roger Stone's indictment: 'This this has nothing to do with the president'*

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news...tance-him-roger-stones-indictment/2676348002/










Sound familiar?


Another edit:

* Armed FBI agents storm Roger Stone's home in CNN video of his arrest *

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news...ideo-shows-fbi-storm-florida-home/2675857002/

Wow!
Pretty severe.
They must have wanted him pretty badly


----------



## Wino

Another domino bites the dust. Not long before the Grande Cheeto goes down !!


----------



## Johnny b

His turn seems inevitable.

I now see where he's going to agree with a 3 week opening of gov't services with out the Wall being part of his extortion agreement that he was seeking.
Apparently airlines are shutting down rapidly and he got cold feet.

Gotta wonder what happens in 3 weeks, though.


----------



## Wino

I fully expect he will issue the pseudo emergency order and let the courts sort it out. Such a waste of time for this entire fiasco and totally unnecessary except to build his phallic symbol wall.


----------



## Johnny b

And now that Trump caved:

* 'Biggest wimp ever to serve as president': Conservatives bash Trump on ending shutdown without border money *

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news...g-government-without-border-funds/2682535002/

This is what happens when radicals take over a political party. Insane positions to the detriment of a society becomes goals. 
They'll even back a Russian appointed leader to achieve them and whine about his failures.


----------



## Johnny b

Poor Roger.
I wonder if he'll cave or simply disappear into the criminal justice system wearing newly popular prison stripped apparel that's becoming a fashion statement in the Trump circle?

* Roger Stone indictment: Mueller pushes deeper into Trump campaign; highlights effort to use Russia hacks to derail Clinton bid *

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news...ueller-deeper-into-trump-campaign/2679032002/



> Every criminal case brought against a senior member of the Trump campaign as part of special counsel Robert Mueller's investigation has revealed a new attempt to conceal contacts with Russia or intermediaries linked to the Kremlin.


Perhaps Mueller's investigation is just starting to get serious? 

They are closing in.
Run Donald, run away quickly (  )


----------



## Johnny b

The dangers of polarization.

IMO, Newt is pretty much a nationalist scum bag, but In this article, he makes a valid point. Obviously not what he intended.
And it happens to be how radical national socialists came to power in the Republican Party through a minority position. Over time, the influence of traditional conservatism, the mainstream and centrist positions were destroyed.
Neo-conservatism.
Libertarianism.
The Tea Party.
All they had to do was wave a patriotic Flag a lot harder.
So now we have the Trumptionian flag flying above many if not most of these radical groups and they hate anyone in the GOP that thinks differently.

Now, the concept that began WWII, Nationalism, is becoming acceptable to the detriment of free and democratic societies, as an alternative to left wing socialism.

https://www.foxnews.com/opinion/new...ump-back-in-the-white-house-in-2020-heres-why

( I know....<cringe> )

* Newt Gingrich: Democrats and Never Trumpers will put Trump back in the White House in 2020 -- Here's why *

excerpt:


> The left will do for Trump what it did for President Reagan and Prime Minister Margaret Thatcher, and what it is currently doing for Prime Minister Theresa May (who is surviving because the alternative is so terrible). A few more proposals for 70 percent tax rates, sanctuary states, tax paid health care for everyone including illegal immigrants, open borders, anti-Semitism, and anti-Israeli hostility, and the Democrats will begin driving away everyone but the hard left.


*" A few more proposals for .......and the Democrats will begin driving away everyone but the hard left. "*

And we're back to a scenario of 'the lesser of evils' decision.
And there is no good outcome from either.

And just to show how blind Newt is to his own condition, he wrote:


> There is a point where smiling while saying things that are factually false simply doesn't sustain a national movement.


But it can and does polarize voters to the point wise decisions aren't made and majority positions are marginalized.

It's the historical machinery of dictators and despots.


----------



## Littlefield

Dems getting Stacey Abrams to give Democratic response to State of the Union is a good start. LOL


----------



## Johnny b

Littlefield said:


> Dems getting Stacey Abrams to give Democratic response to State of the Union is a good start. LOL


That's likely going to be a problem for the Dems if it becomes a pattern. And with with the likes of E Warren and B Sanders, the Dems will likely march to a socialist drum beat or at the least have a negative impact to some degree.
.
There appears to be a majority of voters that currently won't vote for Trump. But that doesn't automatically mean they will vote Democrat.

Where Trump's Nationalist Alt Right base appears steady in spite of allegations and arrests with in the Trump circle, the Dems whose present core is left wing, seems more dependent on pleasing independents for political gain. Are they too polarized to address/consider moderation? I suspect so.

But then there is that 'Mueller' effect we are all breathlessly waiting for 
Could be a lot of screaming and crying there


----------



## Johnny b

The big plans, the big claims of Trump seldom seem to match reality.

Such as:
There were his claims of USS Steel mills opening and being built, didn't happen.
His war on H-D over foreign investments that didn't adhere to this trade wars.
His attempt to bankrupt Ford and the auto industry in general over his trade wars.
His new NAFTA that looked like the old NAFTA.

etc, etc, etc.....you get the picture.

Add Foxtconn to that list.

* Foxconn may not build $10B Wisconsin plant Trump touted *
https://www.nbcnews.com/business/bu...uild-10b-wisconsin-plant-trump-touted-n964411



> Announced at a White House ceremony in 2017, the 20-million square foot campus marked the largest greenfield investment by a foreign-based company in U.S. history and was praised by President Donald Trump as proof of his ability to revive American manufacturing.
> 
> Foxconn, which received controversial state and local incentives for the project, initially planned to manufacture advanced large screen displays for TVs and other consumer and professional products at the facility, which is under construction.
> ............
> Rather than a focus on LCD manufacturing, Foxconn wants to create a "technology hub" in Wisconsin that would largely consist of research facilities along with packaging and assembly operations, Woo said. It would also produce specialized tech products for industrial, healthcare, and professional applications, he added.
> 
> "In Wisconsin we're not building a factory. You can't use a factory to view our Wisconsin investment," Woo said.


In other words, Foxconn is building a research and development center that will be more dependent upon intellectual input from a scientific aspect at a time when Trump's alt right Nationalist movement discourages advanced education.

I suspect there won't be many recognizable Anglo American names in the employment rolls. Mostly Asian 

Thanks, Donald, for making Foxconn greater.
( I wonder how much that cost the American tax payer  )


----------



## Johnny b

Putting the Trump/Russian conspiracy into perspective.
Salon:

* Mueller closes the circle of Russian collusion on Trump *

https://www.salon.com/2019/01/30/mueller-closes-the-circle-of-russian-collusion-on-trump/

Too much to quote, but the basics:


> .......Michael Flynn, Roger Stone, Michael Cohen, George Papadopoulos, Alex van der Zwaan, and Rick Gates all were either indicted or pled guilty to lying, along with some other charges (Paul Manafort was found guilty of tax evasion, money laundering, and other financial crimes
> 
> ..............
> But what everyone has forgotten is that Mueller's indictments of the Russians were not for "process crimes" at all, but rather for various specific crimes surrounding the underlying crime of conspiring to defraud the United States of America.The indictments of 13 Russians from the Internet Research Agency in St. Petersburg, and 12 Russian intelligence agents working for the Russian intelligence agency the GRU in Moscow are at the heart of Mueller's overall strategy.
> .............
> Mueller is after this conspiracy: At one end were the Russians in Moscow and St. Petersburg, and at the other end were the "persons known and unknown" in the United States, all of whom are associated with the Trump campaign. Facilitating the two ends of the conspiracy was WikiLeaks, located in the Ecuadorian Embassy in London.
> ............
> Mueller's indictment of the Republican bad boy and former Trump political adviser Roger Stone was less of an allegation that Stone committed crimes like lying to the congress and tampering with a witness, than it was the exercise of an elaborate search warrant for all of Stone's houses and offices. Mueller wanted Stone's electronic devices, because he needs to confirm what he already knows about Stone's connections to WikiLeaks.


IMO, it's worth reading all of this article.


----------



## Wino

Re Foxconn - the 'great' negotiator and his minion Scott Walker got conned, again. Simpletons, plain and simple.

https://www.esquire.com/news-politi...scott-walker-foxconn-wisconsin-jobs-billions/

I'm never ceased to be amazed by all the Turnip worshipers that believe all the 'great' things he says he's done as fact. When you ask for a list they give you half baked EO's, tax cuts, N. Korea, Iran, killing NAFTA, EPA, Education, HUD and AMA, the list is endless - all of which are detrimental to the nation and our national interest. A nation run by an imbecile and elected by same.


----------



## Johnny b

Wino said:


> .................... A nation run by an imbecile and elected by same.


(sigh! )

It bothers me deeply that so much of the general public can't or won't bother to understand how negative Trump-o-mania is and has been to our society.


----------



## Chawbacon

Johnny b said:


> Putting the Trump/Russian conspiracy into perspective.
> Salon:
> 
> * Mueller closes the circle of Russian collusion on Trump *
> 
> https://www.salon.com/2019/01/30/mueller-closes-the-circle-of-russian-collusion-on-trump/
> 
> Too much to quote, but the basics:
> 
> IMO, it's worth reading all of this article.





> Mueller wanted Stone's electronic devices, because he needs to confirm what he already knows about Stone's connections to WikiLeaks.


OR... The Muller investigation into Trump-Russia Collusion is still an allegation looking for proof of the specific crime. Just saying.


----------



## Chawbacon

Wino said:


> Re Foxconn - the 'great' negotiator and his minion Scott Walker got conned, again. Simpletons, plain and simple.
> 
> https://www.esquire.com/news-politi...scott-walker-foxconn-wisconsin-jobs-billions/
> 
> I'm never ceased to be amazed by all the Turnip worshipers that believe all the 'great' things he says he's done as fact. When you ask for a list they give you half baked EO's, tax cuts, N. Korea, Iran, killing NAFTA, EPA, Education, HUD and AMA, the list is endless - all of which are detrimental to the nation and our national interest. A nation run by an imbecile and elected by same.





Johnny b said:


> (sigh! )
> 
> It bothers me deeply that so much of the general public can't or won't bother to understand how negative Trump-o-mania is and has been to our society.


Let's be intellectually honest here. You have voiced _opinions_ above. As with every decision and every policy put forth by any politician, there are always resulting positives and negatives. Granted the negatives may outweigh the positives, or just the opposite may be true. Only time will reveal the overall success of said policies.


----------



## Johnny b

Chawbacon said:


> OR... The Muller investigation into Trump-Russia Collusion is still an allegation looking for proof of the specific crime. Just saying.


Of course you're just saying....what other kind of a rationalization could you possibly promote with a straight face?


----------



## Johnny b

Chawbacon said:


> Let's be intellectually honest here. You have voiced _opinions_ above. As with every decision and every policy put forth by any politician, there are always resulting positives and negatives. Granted the negatives may outweigh the positives, or just the opposite may be true. Only time will reveal the overall success of said policies.


Let's be intellectually honest and present opinions as such rather than facts of the alternative kind that turn out to be obviously bogus.



> Only time will reveal the overall success of said policies.


And that is an opinion, not an absolute.



> Let's be intellectually honest here




LOL!

After all the specific comments and lists of screwups and lies ( lists of them ) by the Trump administration......it's now time for some intellectual honesty?

Ha Ha Ha!


----------



## Chawbacon

Johnny b said:


> Let's be intellectually honest and present opinions as such rather than facts of the alternative kind that turn out to be obviously bogus.


Yep! Thank you for reinforcing my original point! 



Johnny b said:


> And that is an opinion, not an absolute.


Ahhh.... I see that I should have clarified that I was not referring to TIME the magazine.

Rather (not Dan Rather), I was referencing TIME as a nonspatial continuum, which is about a close to absolute as man can conceive.


----------



## Chawbacon

Littlefield said:


> Dems getting Stacey Abrams to give Democratic response to State of the Union is a good start. LOL


Oh yeah! The same Stacy Abrams that continued to blame the Kentucky school kids for the viral Lincoln Memorial confrontation. YEP! That's a Winner!


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1091364275468333057


----------



## Johnny b

Chawbacon said:


> Yep! Thank you for reinforcing my original point!
> 
> Ahhh.... I see that I should have clarified that I was not referring to TIME the magazine.
> 
> Rather (not Dan Rather), I was referencing TIME as a nonspatial continuum, which is about a close to absolute as man can conceive.


You're in the wrong forum


----------



## Chawbacon

Chawbacon said:


> Oh yeah! The same Stacy Abrams that continued to blame the Kentucky school kids for the viral Lincoln Memorial confrontation. YEP! That's a Winner!
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1091364275468333057


Ok... Had to circle back around to this one.

Stacy Abrams gave a very good rebuttal speech to the SOTU. Granted, I personally disagreed with most of her opinions categorically; but, she was compelling and she provided a decent counterpoint to the President.


----------



## Johnny b

I got more out of the fact checking of Trump's address.


----------



## Johnny b

* Cascade of lies from the prince of lies: But don't kid yourself, his fans loved it *

https://www.salon.com/2019/02/06/ca...lies-but-dont-kid-yourself-his-fans-loved-it/



> Throughout his State of the Union speech Trump either lied outright or distorted the facts on a wide range of issues, including immigration, his imaginary border wall, crime, the economy, the war against ISIS, North Korea, women's rights and the drug crisis.


!
I am shocked and appalled!

Damn those fact checkers and the truth !  



> Predictably, Trump's address was grotesque and full of pornographic violence. Babies are being torn from their mother's wombs and killed by Democrats. Natural-born rapists and other nebulous brown people in "Mad Max"-like "caravans" are coming to America to commit horrific crimes against white people -- especially white women. The Democrats believe in "open borders" and want such crimes to occur.


!!!!



> Commentator Van Jones described Trump's address afterward as "a psychotically incoherent speech mixing cookies with dog poop." That is largely accurate, yet Trump supporters and Republican voters in general will devour it as though it were a wonderful meal.


Wow! That was an unsettling image burned into my retina. (  )


----------



## Chawbacon

Johnny b said:


> *Cascade of lies from the prince of lies: But don't kid yourself, his fans loved it*
> 
> https://www.salon.com/2019/02/06/ca...lies-but-dont-kid-yourself-his-fans-loved-it/


Sound more like a Trump Derangement Syndrome rant to me.  Granted, the author is entitled to submit their opinionated hit piece for publishing; and that ability to share a viewpoint is part of what makes America great.



> Predictably, Trump's address was grotesque and full of pornographic violence. Babies are being torn from their mother's wombs and killed by Democrats. Natural-born rapists and other nebulous brown people in "Mad Max"-like "caravans" are coming to America to commit horrific crimes against white people -- especially white women. The Democrats believe in "open borders" and want such crimes to occur.


Sad, sad, sad... The subjects here (late term abortions, after birth abortions, the certain amount of crime inherent with any migrant group throughout history, and an unwillingness by Democrat leadership to create a comprehensive layered approach to border security) all appear to be loosing issues for the Democrat party. I do not see how doubling down and amplifying these over-exaggerated claims will help the overall cause of Democrat driven social revolution based upon victim-hood politics.



> Commentator Van Jones described Trump's address afterward as "a psychotically incoherent speech mixing cookies with dog poop." That is largely accurate, yet Trump supporters and Republican voters in general will devour it as though it were a wonderful meal.





Johnny b said:


> Wow! That was an unsettling image burned into my retina. (  )


Yeah. What Johnny said!

The statement by the author though, shows where a basic disconnect for the Democrats lies right now. The claims that the President lies about everything, and then deriding the intelligence of Trump supporters and insinuating guilt by association for anyone who displays support for any Trump policy, is definitely not a good recipe to win over moderate voters.


----------



## Johnny b

Chawbacon said:


> Sound more like a Trump Derangement Syndrome rant to me. ..................


* Cascade of lies from the prince of lies: But don't kid yourself, his fans loved it *

Amazing how accurate the title of that article was. 



> I do not see how doubling down and amplifying these over-exaggerated claims will help the overall cause of Democrat driven social revolution based upon victim-hood politics.


I do believe you, and that you don't understand what's going on 
Let me help (  )
It's simply a confrontation of the Alt-Right National Socialists on one side and the Left Wing Socialists on the other.

BTW....Trump used to be an advocate of pro choice, originally with no intent to make abortion illegal.
He'll say and do what ever it takes to assume power.






Little to no moral stability when decisions vary from acceptable killing to rejection based 
on public mood.
His current stance on abortion gets him the support of hypocritical fake christians.

Killing the unborn as a means of birth control is just as morally wrong as killing the children of parents seeking sanctuary, for the purpose of scaring them into desisting their attempted flights to freedom.
Or has institutionalized racism affected you so much you ignore it?
Trump has been 'all over the map' on morality, supporting what he thinks sells him into power.

Left wing Democrats do it too, however, it's an alt-right nationalist currently sitting in the Oval Office. The attention is naturally focused on what he's doing now,


----------



## Johnny b

Chawbacon said:


> ..................
> 
> ............... The claims that the President lies about everything, and then deriding the intelligence of Trump supporters and insinuating guilt by association for anyone who displays support for any Trump policy, is definitely not a good recipe to win over moderate voters.


Interesting opinion, it was exactly that methodology that put Trump into power to start with, only Trump was never able to secure a majority of the popular vote.
Now he's caught up in his own lies and the majority of voters are aware of who he really is 
The coming Presidential election is the Democrat's to lose if they choose a socialist as a candidate.

But it won't change a thing about those that support the alt right nationalist movement and Trump's machinations of being the First Oligarch of the US. 
You lay with swine, you smell like them 
Now, that's real association


----------



## Chawbacon

Johnny b said:


> Interesting opinion, it was exactly that methodology that put Trump into power to start with, only Trump was never able to secure a majority of the popular vote.
> Now he's caught up in his own lies and the majority of voters are aware of who he really is
> The coming Presidential election is the Democrat's to lose if they choose a socialist as a candidate.


Possibly so, but keep in mind that Hillary also failed to win the popular vote. 

As for 2020 - I respect your opinion, but, politically speaking, I see the Democrats in a fairly significant hole right now, and I think that they really are facing an uphill fight. But... yeah... You are right... Supporting a socialist candidate is a pathway to failure.



Johnny b said:


> But it won't change a thing about those that support the alt right nationalist movement and Trump's machinations of being the First Oligarch of the US.
> You lay with swine, you smell like them
> Now, that's real association


Funny! Thanks for the laugh.


----------



## Johnny b

Chawbacon said:


> Possibly so, but keep in mind that Hillary also failed to win the popular vote.
> .................................
> 
> Funny! Thanks for the laugh.


Laughs on you... Hilary won the popular vote by almost 3 million votes 

It was the Electoral College vote she lost 

That is so sad


----------



## Johnny b

Chawbacon said:


> ..........
> 
> As for 2020 - I respect your opinion, but, politically speaking, I see the Democrats in a fairly significant hole right now, and I think that they really are facing an uphill fight. But... yeah... You are right... Supporting a socialist candidate is a pathway to failure.
> 
> ...................


Indeed.
I'm not expecting much in the way of them presenting needed common sense solutions with the current imagery .


----------



## Chawbacon

Johnny b said:


> Laughs on you... Hilary won the popular vote by almost 3 million votes
> 
> It was the Electoral College vote she lost
> 
> That is so sad


Ummm.... To win the_ *popular vote*_ an individual must garner over 50% of the total available votes. Since neither Hillary, nor Trump, achieved this mark, it can be factually stated that there was not a popular vote winner during the last U.S. Presidential election.

Hillary did win a _*plurality of the vote*, _and yes... she ultimately lost in the electoral college.


----------



## Johnny b

Chawbacon said:


> Ummm.... To win the_ *popular vote*_ an individual must garner over 50% of the total available votes. Since neither Hillary, nor Trump, achieved this mark, it can be factually stated that there was not a popular vote winner during the last U.S. Presidential election.
> 
> Hillary did win a _*plurality of the vote*, _and yes... she ultimately lost in the electoral college.


No...you are confusing the concepts of popular versus majority.
A popular vote win can be a plurality, meaning less than a majority in cases where there are more than 2 choices. A popular vote win is simply who receives the most votes.

Hillary won the popular vote.
And it drives Trump bonkers 

Google the terms


----------



## Johnny b

It just keeps getting closer and closer to the next presidential primary and what does Trump have to look forward to?

* New Trump Probe Looks a Lot Like a RICO Investigation *

Surprise! 

https://www.thedailybeast.com/new-trump-probe-looks-a-lot-like-a-rico-investigation



> Referring to a cooperator as a "rat," President Trump sometimes sounds like a mob boss. He may ultimately be prosecuted like one, too.
> While some reports ( https://www.thedailybeast.com/where-are-feds-going-with-two-new-trump-investigations ) say that Special Counsel Robert Mueller's investigation is winding down, it appears that another investigation is just gearing up.
> 
> According to reports in The Wall Street Journal and The New York Times, a grand jury in the Southern District of New York recently issued a subpoena to the Trump inaugural committee, seeking documents relating to donors and spending. According to reports, the subpoena indicates that prosecutors are investigating conspiracy against the United States, false statements, mail fraud, wire fraud, money laundering and violations of campaign finance and inaugural committee laws. In addition, CNN has reported that federal prosecutors in Manhattan have expressed interest in interviewing executives from the Trump Organization.


Humpty Dumpty sat on a wall,. Humpty Dumpty had a great fall;. All the king's horses and all the king's men. Couldn't put Humpty together again.


----------



## Chawbacon

Johnny b said:


> No...you are confusing the concepts of popular versus majority.
> A popular vote win can be a plurality, meaning less than a majority in cases where there are more than 2 choices. A popular vote win is simply who receives the most votes.


Aahh... I stand corrected. Thank you for catching and correcting my brain fart there. 

Good thing that we have an electoral college then.


----------



## Johnny b

For me, it didn't matter


----------



## Johnny b

Chawbacon said:


> Good thing that we have an electoral college then.


Good thing we still have a Department of Justice ......

tic toc........there's a Primary coming


----------



## Johnny b

I suspect farmers still loyal to the Republican Party are thinking about the coming Primary and who they won't vote for 

* 'This One Here Is Gonna Kick My Butt'-Farm Belt Bankruptcies Are Soaring *

https://www.wsj.com/articles/this-o...arm-belt-bankruptcies-are-soaring-11549468759

That's right.....the Wall Street Journal....not some liberal lefty fake news outlet.



> Bankruptcies in three regions covering major farm states last year rose to the highest level in at least 10 years. The Seventh Circuit Court of Appeals, which includes Illinois, Indiana and Wisconsin, had double the bankruptcies in 2018 compared with 2008. In the Eighth Circuit, which includes states from North Dakota to Arkansas, bankruptcies swelled 96%. The 10th Circuit, which covers Kansas and other states, last year had 59% more bankruptcies than a decade earlier.
> 
> States in those circuits accounted for nearly half of all sales of U.S. farm products in 2017, according to U.S. Department of Agriculture data.


With Trump's tax plan that appears to mirror the trickle down scam of Reagan and Stockman, but on steroids, middle class tax payers are next to take an economic hit from lost deductions while deficit spending rages on and the Federal debt sets new records.

tic toc.......there's a Primary coming.
( probably Mueller's report too  )


----------



## Johnny b

A significant part of the Trump economic plan, wallowing in debt.
Note: This article is not from some left wing wanna-be's.

Reuters:

* U.S. farm debt soars to levels seen during 1980s farm crisis: Agriculture secretary *
https://www.reuters.com/article/us-...rm-crisis-agriculture-secretary-idUSKCN1QG24Y



> The amount of debt held by America's farmers has risen rapidly to 1980s-levels at $409 billion from $385 billion last year, with loan demand remaining "historically high," U.S. Agriculture Secretary Sonny Perdue said on Wednesday.


Too much to copy and paste. 
There are serious concerns and projections in the article.


----------



## Idontknow.

Phantom010 said:


> Well, maybe the answer is "none of those answers"...
> 
> Only 9 days as president and we're already heading toward World War III...
> 
> Never thought the US of A would stoop that low... And some still wonder why so many people hate us so much...


It's 2019. Ready to eat some shinola?


----------



## Brigham

It's 2019. Ready to eat some shinola?
This is I feel, an American colloquialism, could somebody enlighten me as to it's meaning.


----------



## Johnny b

Brigham said:


> It's 2019. Ready to eat some shinola?
> This is I feel, an American colloquialism, could somebody enlighten me as to it's meaning.


That it is.

It's in reference to knowing the difference between polishing shoes with shoe polish (shinola ) or dung.

As you can see, the poster doesn't know the difference


----------



## Idontknow.

Johnny b said:


> That it is.
> 
> It's in reference to knowing the difference between polishing shoes with shoe polish (shinola ) or dung.
> 
> As you can see, the poster doesn't know the difference





Johnny b said:


> That it is.
> 
> It's in reference to knowing the difference between polishing shoes with shoe polish (shinola ) or dung.
> 
> As you can see, the poster doesn't know the difference


The exact term is You don't know squat from Shinola but I was being polite.


----------



## Johnny b

Idontknow. said:


> The exact term is You don't know squat from Shinola but I was being polite.





Idontknow. said:


> It's 2019. Ready to eat some shinola?


Makes no sense


----------



## Idontknow.

Johnny b said:


> Makes no sense


Now at least your being honest you don't understand .


----------



## Johnny b

Idontknow. said:


> Now at least your being honest you don't understand .


LOL!


----------



## Wino

IDK version is that which I was familiar with, but I feared the wrath of Cookiegal more than anything else, so didn't respond as I couldn't be nice - dung just doesn't cut it!


----------



## Johnny b

Wino said:


> IDK version is that which I was familiar with, but I feared the wrath of Cookiegal more than anything else, so didn't respond as I couldn't be nice - dung just doesn't cut it!


No....it doesn't do justice to that old cultural phrase 

But it was the most adult sounding alternative I could think of with out looking silly......
I mean....
How would this sound?

You don't know poopie from shoe polish? 
Too much like kindergarten.

But 'eating shinola'? .........I mean, really? 
Makes no sense. lol!


----------



## Wino

Well, for sure the "poopie" thing is too Trumpish. LOL


----------



## Wino

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/poli...e/ar-BBUHPWg?li=BBnbcA1&srcref=rss&ocid=iehrs

I'm curious what Conway believes about the entire D. Trump clans college entrances went down from Dummy Dad to youngest adult? I'll give 10-1 odds that most, if not all, got bribed into college and I'll bet there are records to prove it.


----------



## Johnny b

Trump, personally, is getting sued.

* NY appeals court rules President Donald Trump must face Summer Zervos' defamation lawsuit *

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news...os-defamation-case-ny-court-rules/3162078002/



> President Donald Trump cannot dismiss the defamation lawsuit filed against him by Summer Zervos, a former contestant on his "Apprentice" reality show who accuse him of sexual groping, a New York appeals court ruled Thursday.


Imagery.
A fat man with small hands wearing a red MAGA ball cap being sued for sexual imposition and defamation.
And the crowds cheer him on as he also claims his payoffs to prostitutes was legal.

Something is terribly wrong in our society....with our society ..... 



> Filed in January 2017, Zervos' lawsuit alleges that Trump "ambushed" her more than once in 2007, nine years before he was elected president, by kissing her on the mouth, touching her breast, and pressing his genitals against her.
> 
> Zervos also accused Trump of defaming her during presidential campaign rallies and via Twitter. During an Oct. 15, 2016, campaign stop in Maine, Trump alluded to Zervos by referring to "false allegations and outright lies, in an effort to elect Hillary Clinton President," the lawsuit charges.


----------



## Chawbacon

*Supreme Court sides with Trump on detention of immigrants*
https://www.washingtonexaminer.com/...with-trump-on-detention-of-illegal-immigrants


> The Supreme Court on Tuesday ruled in favor of the Trump administration by deciding federal officials can detain immigrants at any time for possible deportation after they have served their time in the U.S. for other crimes.
> 
> The 5-4 decision reversed the 9th Circuit Court of Appeals, which said officials have to detain these immigrants immediately or they are exempt from ever being detained.


Big win for Tump here and another loss for the 9th Circuit.


----------



## Johnny b

Chawbacon said:


> *Supreme Court sides with Trump on detention of immigrants*
> https://www.washingtonexaminer.com/...with-trump-on-detention-of-illegal-immigrants
> 
> Big win for Tump here and another loss for the 9th Circuit.


As written, practical. 
But Trump's orders have been to detain all those seeking sanctuary that cross the border illegally, including children. And the conditions of detention have been responsible for several recorded deaths. Known deaths.

Statistics are often reflective of intent.

Of felony convictions, about 2.7% of illegal residents are at risk of deportation. That's 2.7% of 11 million. Or about 300,000.
https://www.migrationpolicy.org/new...nal-convictions-who-might-be-priority-removal

In Georgia, your home state, about 15% of the adult population in 2010 was a felon.
10 percent in Florida, Indiana, Louisiana and Texas. And rising.

With rampant crime in Georgia by legal citizens, what is the response by Georgian officials?
https://www.pewtrusts.org/en/resear...viction-rates-have-risen-sharply-but-unevenly


> In Georgia, a February 2017 report by a state commission called for shorter probation sentences and lighter caseloads for probation officers. (The Pew Charitable Trusts, which also funds Stateline, assisted with the paper.) Almost 3 percent of Georgia's adult population was on felony probation as of 2015 - far more than any other state and a 12 percent increase from 2010, according to the latest federal figures from the Bureau of Justice Statistics.
> 
> Georgia already has taken action to reduce felony convictions. For example, as part of sentencing and classification changes enacted in 2012, the state raised its felony theft threshold from $500 to $1,500.


https://countrymeters.info/en/Georgia#facts
The adult population ( 15 and up) is about 85% of the general or about 3.2 million.

Using 2010 Georgia stats, that would be almost a half a million felons.

There are about 300,000 illegal immigrants with felony convictions the Federal Government wants deported.
There are about 500,000 legal citizens in Georgia with felony convictions. And the State government of Georgia is trying to reduce their numbers by raising the criteria for felony convictions.

Say it ain't so, Jack 

Deportation is for non citizens.
Perhaps we need to start exiling Georgians to make America safe  !

So, what is the intent/reason of this obvious lopsided execution of our legal system?
Well, you did originally bring up the concept of institutionalized discrimination.
That could be a part of these new ethics. A large part.


----------



## Chawbacon

Johnny b said:


> As written, practical.
> But Trump's orders have been to detain all those seeking sanctuary that cross the border illegally, including children. And the conditions of detention have been responsible for several recorded deaths. Known deaths.


Well... A bit of misdirection eh? 

The case ruled on by the U.S. Supreme Court concerned a legal challenge claiming that illegal aliens could not be detained for deportation if Federal Agents were not at the local jail location when the illegal alien was released. Thankfully, the U.S. Supreme Court saw through this sham of a legal challenge.


Johnny b said:


> Of felony convictions, about 2.7% of illegal residents are at risk of deportation. That's 2.7% of 11 million. Or about 300,000.
> https://www.migrationpolicy.org/new...nal-convictions-who-might-be-priority-removal


More misdirection???  Apples and oranges here... I am sure that this was an unintentional oversight on your part Johnny. 

In reality, ALL illegal aliens are technically eligible for deportation just by unlawfully entering the United States. Trump is just focusing on the more serious offenders. 


Johnny b said:


> In Georgia, your home state, about 15% of the adult population in 2010 was a felon.
> 10 percent in Florida, Indiana, Louisiana and Texas. And rising.


I would not really call Georgia my home state; rather, I simply reside here until a better job opportunity is presented.

Even more misdirection????? So your point is that there are a large amount of U.S. citizens residing in Georgia that have chosen a life of criminal activities; therefore, Georgia and the entire country should turn a blind eye to criminal activities being conducted by illegal aliens? Have you started working for CNN? 


Johnny b said:


> Deportation is for non citizens.
> Perhaps we need to start exiling Georgians to make America safe  !


This is a fantastic idea Johnny!!!! We can ship all of the Georgia criminals to California with instructions to claim sanctuary from prosecution by the U.S. Government. This would relieve significant fiscal pressure to house, clothe, and feed all of the reprobates within the Georgia prison system. Absolutely Brilliant!!!!!!!!!


----------



## Johnny b

The misdirection was in your previous post 

The SC decision only involved a minor element of Trump's immigration strategy and was fronted as a security solution.

As shown and scoffed at...the major problem is with those that break laws.
And that is obviously evident where you live 
It's your legal citizen neighbors. !!

And if you weren't aware, exile results from prosecution and involves removal from a society, not just from the hell hole of Georgia or off loading into the land of nuts California......just send them elsewhere in the world that they can't come back :up:
That is, if you implement the logic of trumpsters. Of course, that's not likely to happen, after they are exiled, who's left to vote for national socialism and the trumtonian way of life 
Those that worship Trump as the emissary of God?
I suspect Mike Pence is jealous.



> So your point is that there are a large amount of U.S. citizens residing in Georgia that have chosen a life of criminal activities


One of several points for an example. Lesser percentages exist in other states.
Trumpites are hypocrites.
They ( and obviously you  ) aren't interested in security or applying the law equally to all residents.
Otherwise you would object to your state letting future felons run free of prosecution by redefining what a felony was to start with, in order to try to claim a lower felony rate. lol!



> In reality, ALL illegal aliens are technically eligible for deportation just by unlawfully entering the United States.


As usual, you repeat misconceptions.
Illegal entry for sanctuary is eligible for appeal, and those that are or being of criminal intent the reason for entry are supposed to be eliminated at this point.

The issue of sanctuary cities is but a mere act of sophistry by trumpsters and abuse of the concept by leftists.



> I would not really call Georgia my home state; rather, I simply reside here until a better job opportunity is presented.


I get it.
You chose to live next to murderers, thieves, drug dealers and rapists so long as they are legal citizens.

You made my point 

As shown, the numbers of US citizens that are felons just in Georgia, alone, is greater than all of the illegal immigrant felons residing in all of the US.
You appear to ignore that situation as you project security as an issue of immigrants being here.



> We can ship all of the Georgia criminals to California with instructions to claim sanctuary from prosecution by the U.S. Government. This would relieve significant fiscal pressure to house, clothe, and feed all of the reprobates within the Georgia prison system.


You are confused ( well, we already knew that  )
The issue, the felons that live among us versus security.
And my point was, because security is the issue, the current policies of the Trump administration are not addressing our security as they direct their ire at immigrants to the pleasure of those afflicted with ......institutionalized discrimination.
A hallmark frequently of history's past and present dictators.
The ability to influence hate for the purpose of social control.

Welcome to Georgia 
Land of many 'legal' felons. lol!
Where your smiling neighbor may be thinking of bad things to do to 'you'. ......
And trumptonians look the other way.



> Absolutely Brilliant


Thank you


----------



## Johnny b

Chawbacon said:


> Well... A bit of misdirection eh?
> ............................


So, what is the intent/reason of this obvious lopsided execution of our legal system?
Well, you did originally bring up the concept of institutionalized discrimination.
That could be a part of these new ethics. A large part. 
Could you explain why Georgians accept outrageous numbers of felons living among you that are citizens?
Since security obviously is not a factor, you know  with restating (increasing) the criteria for prosecution, your interests in removing immigrants that run afoul of the law must be something different.

And we're back to that idea you floated of institutionalized discrimination.

BTW, Trump and his father were hauled into Federal Court on civil charges of racial discrimination, found guilty and fined.
That wasn't institutionalized discrimination. It was intentional.
How do you feel about it?
You've already blamed women for national unemployment issues, I'd like to understand how you blame immigrants for all the non immigrant felons living in Georgia.
Do immigrants induce criminality into the Georgian way of life?
Or is it simply what you do?

I have an inquiring mind and I'd like to know


----------



## Johnny b

Chawbacon said:


> ...............
> 
> Trump is just focusing on the more serious offenders.
> .......................
> 
> ........


Really?

And yet I haven't read any news reports of felonious citizens of Georgia being treated in the same manner.
What's up with that?

I keep remembering all those 'disappeared' children and families broken up.
Remind me, how does committing crimes against humanity bring security to our society?

If crimes are a security issue ( they are and should be ) why are there news articles like this ( and others of the same nature )
* Trump's New Defense: Congress Can't Investigate Because There Are Too Many Crimes *

http://nymag.com/intelligencer/2019/02/trump-so-many-crimes-investigate-congress-russia-mueller.html

And the oddity of it all, except for impeachment, nothing can be done about them till Trump leaves office.

evolution: from brown shirts to red MAGA ball caps.
The trumpite crowds cheer him on.


----------



## Chawbacon

You seem a little bitter there Johnny.  I know it hurts you liberals deep in the soul when Trump has a win; but, I will try to make it feel warm and fuzzy for you by responding to some your concerns. 


Johnny b said:


> The SC decision only involved a minor element of Trump's immigration strategy and was fronted as a security solution.


Exactly my point. This was a narrowly defined decision that focused on when illegal aliens could be detained for deportation after being released from prison. While your other concerns are worth discussion, they only muddy the waters concerning the specific topic. 


Johnny b said:


> And if you weren't aware, exile results from prosecution and involves removal from a society, not just from the hell hole of Georgia or off loading into the land of nuts California......just send them elsewhere in the world that they can't come back


Oh... I am very aware of what deportation is and means. I truly appreciate the inspiration of sending the criminals to California and letting them stay in California where their criminal activities are welcomed by existing state policies.


Johnny b said:


> They ( and obviously you  ) aren't interested in security or applying the law equally to all residents.
> Otherwise you would object to your state letting future felons run free of prosecution by redefining what a felony was to start with, in order to try to claim a lower felony rate. lol!


I do object to the redefinition of felonies as you have described here. I deal with information and physical security opportunities on a daily basis and the number of felons in the state of GA is very concerning. 


Johnny b said:


> As usual, you repeat misconceptions.
> Illegal entry for sanctuary is eligible for appeal, and those that are or being of criminal intent the reason for entry are supposed to be eliminated at this point.


You are correct to an extent; however, it should be noted that individuals that have claimed sanctuary and are subsequently residing in the U.S. legally do not fall under my original definition of Illegal Alien (obviously). If these individuals commit a felony, or other serious crime, then they become subject to immediate deportation. Also a failure to show up for their sanctuary status hearing... then they are reclassified as illegal aliens and are technically subject to immediate deportation.


Johnny b said:


> As shown, the numbers of US citizens that are felons just in Georgia, alone, is greater than all of the illegal immigrant felons residing in all of the US.
> You appear to ignore that situation as you project security as an issue of immigrants being here.


Nope. Not ignored at all! That is why I am always... ahem... adequately protected. 


Johnny b said:


> You are confused ( well, we already knew that  )
> The issue, the felons that live among us versus security.
> And my point was, because security is the issue, the current policies of the Trump administration are not addressing our security as they direct their ire at immigrants to the pleasure of those afflicted with ......institutionalized discrimination.
> A hallmark frequently of history's past and present dictators.
> The ability to influence hate for the purpose of social control.


I thought we determined that the term "institutionalized discrimination" was a misstatement on my part? But, I have slept a few times since then.  You may be very correct here; but, every security problem cannot be fixed at once and we need to start somewhere. With the hundreds of thousands illegal entries that are occurring on an annual basis, it seems logical to start by plugging the hole in the boat. Once the hole is plugged, then we can work on pumping out the excess water, and then we can start cleaning the bilges.


Johnny b said:


> And we're back to that idea you floated of institutionalized discrimination.
> 
> BTW, Trump and his father were hauled into Federal Court on civil charges of racial discrimination, found guilty and fined.
> That wasn't institutionalized discrimination. It was intentional.
> How do you feel about it?


I think that at a minimum, the apartment manager definitely discriminated against minorities and there is a decent possibility that senior management (Donald and Frank Trump) were complicit; however, your statement is incorrect in the fact that the Trump organization was not found guilty and fined. The Trump organization reached a settlement with the DOJ, which involved employee training, equality advertising, etc.


Johnny b said:


> You've already blamed women for national unemployment issues, I'd like to understand how you blame immigrants for all the non immigrant felons living in Georgia.


Now this is simply wrong of you Johnny and I am disappointed in your deliberate misrepresentation of that conversation. As you are well aware, I never blamed women for national unemployment issues. The context of that conversation revolved around the unintentional results of women becoming a large part of the work force, resulting in deflated wages across the board; because, companies determined that they could pay individual workers (males and females) less wages for the same job; thereby, requiring two incomes to sustain a moderate living condition. Go re-familiarize yourself with the post any time you like.
https://forums.techguy.org/threads/minimum-living-wage.1218718/page-5#post-9556642


Johnny b said:


> And yet I haven't read any news reports of felonious citizens of Georgia being treated in the same manner.
> What's up with that?
> 
> I keep remembering all those 'disappeared' children and families broken up.
> Remind me, how does committing crimes against humanity bring security to our society?


Think of it this way... You can only eat an elephant one bite at a time. 

"Disappeared children and families broken up," you are going there? Do the research... I'll make it a bit simpler for you.

Trump was enforcing the law
The law/detainment agreement was created by liberals (could not have little Jose locked up with mom and dad - bad imagery)
Obama tried to change it (liberal courts said NO WAY!) 
And those initial pictures of kids in cages that sparked outrage against President Trump... that was from the Obama Presidency... How embarrassing. 

Stop the families from entering illegally and these types of problems go way down.


----------



## Johnny b

Chawbacon said:


> You seem a little bitter there Johnny.  I know it hurts you liberals deep in the soul when Trump has a win; but, I will try to make it feel warm and fuzzy for you by responding to some your concerns.


LOL!
I remember when conservative Republicans had pragmatic qualities. That seemed to change as you Dixiecrats were embraced during the Reagan administration, gaining a lot of influence.
I even remember the Republican party working toward equality, but that was back in the days of Eisenhower.
Why do I remember....because I have been and still am a card carrying member of the Republican Party. For over 50 years. That's ending LOL! 
Am I bitter about the infusion of national socialism into the GOP? Of course.
It's now the Party of Trump but still called the GOP.



> Exactly my point.


No, you and your Trumptonian Party are moving in stages toward greater and greater fascism. It's even in the lettering of your red hat. Make America Great Again. It's no secret you people mean Nationalism. Trump campaigned on it.



> Oh... I am very aware of what deportation is and means. I truly appreciate the inspiration of sending the criminals to California and letting them stay in California where their criminal activities are welcomed by existing state policies.


That's just a silly quip. It sounds good to your fans, but only those with the intelligence of a box of rocks 



> I do object to the redefinition of felonies as you have described here. I deal with information and physical security opportunities on a daily basis and the number of felons in the state of GA is very concerning.


And yet until now, you, like Trump, have argued security is an issue of immigrant control.
It's an element, but a much smaller one than the issues I've presented, and significant..... as you, like Trump, avoid.
Equal justice does not exist.
On Trump, there exists a racist element to please the masses ( for votes ) while the trait you brought up ( institutional racism ) is quite evident in the general public. And that's not even considering the racist groups that support Trump's national socialist policies.



> You are correct to an extent; however, it should be noted that individuals that have claimed sanctuary and are subsequently residing in the U.S. legally do not fall under my original definition of Illegal Alien (obviously). If these individuals commit a felony, or other serious crime, then they become subject to immediate deportation. Also a failure to show up for their sanctuary status hearing... then they are reclassified as illegal aliens and are technically subject to immediate deportation.


I'm correct (period).
You are only repeating details already known. And I have no issue with.
The issue is.....inequality in the judicial system that I presented.
Presently, the fascist element in DC claims our safety lies in removing these residing immigrants if they commit a felony.
This is a lie.
Security resides in all felons being separated from society.
And the State you live in is one of the worst for citizen felons that do their 'short' time and yet still walk among us still comiting crime. Repetition of crimes are high and the courts deal with crowding with early release.

It's the disparity of justice I show you and you still embrace the inequalities.
My posts don't argue to ignore immigrant criminals, they point out our society rots from within and current leaders use misdirection which pleases the racists and institutional racists......along with the out right fascist national socialist elements.



> Nope. Not ignored at all! That is why I am always... ahem... adequately protected.


You carry for your own protection but ignore the dangers society in general faces.
I also do concealed carry. But it has no effect on the crime rate, only my own protection and possibly someone with me.
I call BS.



> I thought we determined that the term "institutionalized discrimination" was a misstatement on my part?


LOL! I almost fell off my chair!
Yeah, I think you didn't know what you were talking about 



> But, I have slept a few times since then.  You may be very correct here; but, every security problem cannot be fixed at once and we need to start somewhere. With the hundreds of thousands illegal entries that are occurring on an annual basis, it seems logical to start by plugging the hole in the boat. Once the hole is plugged, then we can work on pumping out the excess water, and then we can start cleaning the bilges.


BS....
Pragmatism dictates the worst elements are addressed first because they have the greatest impact. 
The courts have been soft on crime for decades.
It's rather obvious Trump is starting a war on immigrants for reasons other than the safety of our citizenry. 
There has been no serious attempt to reduce crime in the US. 
To the contrary, some drug abuse is even becoming legal to reduce the prison populations and raise taxes on the sale of it 



> I think that at a minimum, the apartment manager definitely discriminated against minorities and there is a decent possibility that senior management (Donald and Frank Trump) were complicit; however, your statement is incorrect in the fact that the Trump organization was not found guilty and fined. The Trump organization reached a settlement with the DOJ, which involved employee training, equality advertising, etc.


WOW!
It was shown in court Father and Son were not just complicit ( involved with others in an illegal activity or wrongdoing. ) they ordered it 



> Now this is simply wrong of you Johnny and I am disappointed in your deliberate misrepresentation of that conversation. As you are well aware, I never blamed women for national unemployment issues. The context of that conversation revolved around the unintentional results of women becoming a large part of the work force, resulting in deflated wages across the board; because, companies determined that they could pay individual workers (males and females) less wages for the same job; thereby, requiring two incomes to sustain a moderate living condition. Go re-familiarize yourself with the post any time you like.
> https://forums.techguy.org/threads/minimum-living-wage.1218718/page-5#post-9556642


Here's a direct quote from that link:
*" The introduction of women into the general workforce allowed employers to gradually reduce job position pay in relation to inflation. 
.....
Again, I am not denigrating women in any fashion, just observing the byproducts of a society where every adult is expected to leave the home for work. "*

Looks to me like weasel words, Jack. 
Just because you posted words to the effect you weren't denigrating women..... you did.



> Think of it this way... You can only eat an elephant one bite at a time.


I've seen some pretty poor analogies, but the eating of elephants and comparing crime reduction is truly one of the most bizarre. Kudos.



> "Disappeared children and families broken up," you are going there? Do the research... I'll make it a bit simpler for you.


Of course I go there. Even the courts have ruled on those issues. 
We've discussed them frequently.
I'll present what you obviously intend to ignore:

Linkage:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trump_administration_family_separation_policy

https://www.google.com/search?ei=N0...131i67j0i22i30j0i13i30j0i22i10i30.hALQ6joEgdg
( search 'Trump + missing children )

https://www.google.com/search?ei=U0...i30j0i13i10i30j0i13i30j0i22i10i30.aMwIeKOMy34
( Trump + disappeared children)

https://www.google.com/search?ei=L0...72.1602.17j1......0....1..gws-wiz.GIbF8tzaviw
( Court decisions + Trump + disappeared children)

Trump's policies even wound up losing
parents of children held in custody
https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/im...reunite-kids-parents-separated-border-n889301

That is what research returns. Not your bogus lists.


----------



## Chawbacon

Johnny b said:


> And yet until now, you, like Trump, have argued security is an issue of immigrant control.
> It's an element, but a much smaller one than the issues I've presented, and significant..... as you, like Trump, avoid.
> Equal justice does not exist.
> On Trump, there exists a racist element to please the masses ( for votes ) while the trait you brought up ( institutional racism ) is quite evident in the general public. And that's not even considering the racist groups that support Trump's national socialist policies.


Illegal immigration is a National security issue; but, Ok... Let us say that I agree with your analysis here. What is your proposed solution please? How do we prevent people from making bad decisions and becoming felons? How do we tell/convince U.S citizens that illegal alien felons deserve better protections under the law than U.S. citizens regardless of their felony status? These types of questions/answers can be spun in numerous directions depending on political bias; however, regardless of all the name calling, this is not about racism, rather this boils down to people needing to enter the U.S. legally. 


Johnny b said:


> You are only repeating details already known. And I have no issue with.
> The issue is.....inequality in the judicial system that I presented.
> Presently, the fascist element in DC claims our safety lies in removing these residing immigrants if they commit a felony.
> This is a lie.
> Security resides in all felons being separated from society.


Well... The issue was a win for Trump on illegal immigration and deportation after being released from prison; but, you are admirably deflecting the subject towards "inequality in the judicial system."  Personally, I agree with a lot of what you have to say on the subject, just not in context with my original post.

Oh.. On the "This is a lie"... I started looking around for Professor Umbridge with her black quill. 


Johnny b said:


> WOW!
> It was shown in court Father and Son were not just complicit ( involved with others in an illegal activity or wrongdoing. ) they ordered it


I have only seen a statement made by one of the property managers making that claim, which could easily be the individual attempting to deflect the onus of discrimination onto the employers. If there is a documentation trail to prove the statement, my opinion would definitely be swayed. 


Johnny b said:


> Looks to me like weasel words, Jack.
> Just because you posted words to the effect you weren't denigrating women..... you did.


Come on Johnny. Weasel words? This is really disingenuous of you. I know that you have enough intellect to differentiate between a deliberate insult directed towards a group of people and an objective analysis on cause and affect. 


Johnny b said:


> Of course I go there. Even the courts have ruled on those issues.
> We've discussed them frequently.
> I'll present what you obviously intend to ignore:


Not ignored at all Johnny. The separation of children from their parents is tragic and it saddens my heart when it occurs. My point is that this specific condition of children being separated from parents (and subsequently lost) at the border is a direct result of past liberal policies AND Trump telling DHS to enforce the law on illegal entries into the U.S. I sincerely hope that DHS personnel were doing the best they could under the circumstances; but, after these types of events DHS should have implemented procedures and controls to prevent a recurrence. Granted, the loss of children could have been prevented if the controls had been in place from the start (for which I do blame DHS and the Administration), or if existing liberal polices didn't tie the hands of law enforcement officials that are only attempting to enforce the law.


----------



## Johnny b

Chawbacon said:


> Illegal immigration is a National security issue;


No, it's not. Never has been, either.
It's an economic/social problem not of National Security consideration.
Again you post nonsense that aligns with the acceptance of institutionalized racism.
It's not just an issue of you embracing it, much of society does and that's where the power of Trump originates. Fear. But as I keep pointing out, inaction to address the real problems is going ignored out of emotionalism.
A greater threat to our economy has been Federal deficit spending which has increased under Trump....and yet his bobble head followers are focused on immigration.



> but, Ok... Let us say that I agree with your analysis here.


You and I both know you don't. 
Why say you do?
It'll probably only lead to a fallacy.
Begging the question.



> What is your proposed solution please? How do we prevent people from making bad decisions and becoming felons?


Yep, there's one right now.
The discussion currently is about equal justice for all.
Now you want to equate equal justice to social problems and education under a corrupt government and a society tending to sway toward accepting discrimination.

The problem is with society, itself.
What needs to be done is monumental at this point as the scenario above has been growing for more than decades, centuries and much of it acceptable by elements of our society that at one time even led to a civil war. The worst of it being slavery, which exists today in the form of human trafficking (forced prostitution) .
And it's not just a Trump problem, this immorality has become acceptable to the point whole cities are involved.
Portsmouth, Ohio has been exposed recently as a situation in my State that has existed for decades and it started with a lawyer influencing the courts and law enforcement.

* There's a dark secret in Ohio *
https://www.usatoday.com/story/news...cebook-mueller-thursdays-top-news/3233451002/

As in Georgia and the rest of the nation, the above scenario plays out to varying degrees and is a far greater danger to our society than immigrants seeking sanctuary.

Our nation's drug habit is a greater danger to our society than immigrants seeking sanctuary.
Trump has been a greater danger to our economy with his trade wars than immigrants seeking sanctuary.

And you want me to provide a simple solution?
I can give you a simple answer.
Work on curing society's ills.
Education is a good start.
Eliminating corruption a noble endeavor.

Ignorant/stupid people make poor choices in life and expose us all to their foibles to the point of acceptance.
And you have demonstrated acceptance.



> How do we tell/convince U.S citizens that illegal alien felons deserve better protections under the law than U.S. citizens regardless of their felony status?


Thank you for the example of my above comment.
Again a fallacy.
The issue I brought is the intentional abuse of illegal immigrants that are not felons, and point out that as far as security and safety issues, there is a greater problem within our own society with our own legal citizens that Trumpies intentionally ignore.

Ignoring the source of problems within our society and blaming it on immigrants is simply another issue of racism and institutional racism for the purpose of political control through propaganda and emotionalism.
Stop promoting hate.



> These types of questions/answers can be spun in numerous directions depending on political bias; however, regardless of all the name calling, this is not about racism, rather this boils down to people needing to enter the U.S. legally.


That's your opinion and it does not follow events that lead to Trump being elected.
Trump was obviously elected on hate and propaganda while ignoring anything that could possibly define needed policy changes that had a negative influence on his targeted base.
Trump is and has been a racist through out most of his life.
Politically, Trump is an opportunist. A malevolent opportunist that presents a facade of appeal that changes upon his needs for support.
He once claimed to be a liberal Democrat. Later it was reported he claimed to be an Independent. In the present he presents himself as conservative Republican.
But when you look closer, mostly what is seen is a corrupt businessman that performs as a malevolent opportunist.

He ran on the quip," I could stand in the middle of 5th Avenue and shoot somebody and I wouldn't lose voters"

Acceptance is the problem. How is a society convinced that quip is not suitable for a national leader?
Maybe you ought to study the history of Germany and the rise of National Socialism there?



> Well... The issue was a win for Trump on illegal immigration and deportation after being released from prison; but, you are admirably deflecting the subject towards "inequality in the judicial system."  Personally, I agree with a lot of what you have to say on the subject, just not in context with my original post.


You make me laugh 



> Oh.. On the "This is a lie"... I started looking around for Professor Umbridge with her black quill.
> 
> I have only seen a statement made by one of the property managers making that claim, which could easily be the individual attempting to deflect the onus of discrimination onto the employers. If there is a documentation trail to prove the statement, my opinion would definitely be swayed.


The obvious seems invisible to you.
Trump's property policy was not a one time situation and Fred and Donald were apprised of the situation over several decades with few changes in policy. And those seem to be more from Court orders.

It's a long read, but the conclusion is obvious:
https://www.nytimes.com/2016/08/28/us/politics/donald-trump-housing-race.html

The Trump fortune was initially built on racism.
With Donald and Fred at the helm making thos long term decisions.
Of course you don't like it. Neither does the Trump family.



> Come on Johnny. Weasel words? This is really disingenuous of you. I know that you have enough intellect to differentiate between a deliberate insult directed towards a group of people and an objective analysis on cause and affect.


Jack, you do it a lot and I have caught you at it and corrected you many times 
You really aren't proficient at the propaganda game.



> Not ignored at all Johnny. The separation of children from their parents is tragic and it saddens my heart when it occurs. My point is that this specific condition of children being separated from parents (and subsequently lost) at the border is a direct result of past liberal policies AND Trump telling DHS to enforce the law on illegal entries into the U.S. I sincerely hope that DHS personnel were doing the best they could under the circumstances; but, after these types of events DHS should have implemented procedures and controls to prevent a recurrence. Granted, the loss of children could have been prevented if the controls had been in place from the start (for which I do blame DHS and the Administration), or if existing liberal polices didn't tie the hands of law enforcement officials that are only attempting to enforce the law.


Your heart cries out in anguish over the abuse by the Trump administration......but wait, why then have you supported Trump's policies of abuse?
And why do you ignore the more serious issues to the safety of our society?

Weasel words?
( words or statements that are intentionally ambiguous or misleading. ) 

The logic of "Liberals made me do it" is one of the funniest excuses yet  :up:


----------



## Johnny b

Swiss cheese for brains.

* Pompeo says it's 'possible' President Trump raised to 'save the Jewish people' *

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news...e-trump-raised-save-jewish-people/3244678002/



> "Could it be that President Trump right now has been sort of raised for such a time as this, just like Queen Esther, to help save the Jewish people from an Iranian menace?"
> 
> "As a Christian, I certainly believe that's possible," Pompeo answered.


As a Christian, Pompeo should be living by the teachings of Christ and I'm unaware of any that included persecuting Hispanics seeking sanctuary.
How can a person be Christian while rejecting Christ?
( that's where the 'swiss cheese for brains' comes in )

So it looks like the Trumpites are going to play the 'false prophet' angle this next election 

sigh!

GW Bush sat at the right hand of God and look where that got us.
I suspect this 'emissary' bs will be much worse.


----------



## Chawbacon

*Immigration Court Backlog Up 300%, System 'On Brink Of Collapse*
https://www.washingtonexaminer.com/...rt-backlog-up-300-system-on-brink-of-collapse


> "Crucially, the number of cases pending before the immigration courts (which were about 262,000 cases at the time of the 2010 Report) has increased to unprecedented levels. There were more than 760,000 pending cases at the end of FY 2018 and an additional 330,000 cases that could be returned to active dockets in short order," it said in revealing the latest accurate numbers.


Yep. No emergency here.


----------



## Johnny b

Yep, there has been reported an intentional slow down in the Immigration courts creating a massive boondoggle.
Surely you haven't forgotten the government shut down Trump ordered?
That included the operations of the courts in question.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/opin...e9-8938-5898adc28fa2_story.html?noredirect=on

https://www.rollcall.com/news/policy/immigration-case-backlog-keeps-growing-as-shutdown-drags-on

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/govern...ts-adding-to-record-high-800000-case-backlog/

Even Fox News:
https://www.foxnews.com/us/partial-shutdown-delayed-60000-immigration-court-hearings

It's all Trump's fault


----------



## Chawbacon

Johnny b said:


> Yep, there has been reported an intentional slow down in the Immigration courts creating a massive boondoggle.
> Surely you haven't forgotten the government shut down Trump ordered?
> That included the operations of the courts in question.


How long was that shut down again? Also, does the length of the shutdown account for a 300% increase?


----------



## Johnny b

Chawbacon said:


> How long was that shut down again? Also, does the length of the shutdown account for a 300% increase?


34 days certainly added to it 
Add to that an almost 50% slowdown of processing by policy and the crowding does become an emergency in the making.

* USCIS Immigration Delays Grow Longer And Longer *

https://www.forbes.com/sites/stuart...is-immigration-delays-grow-longer-and-longer/


----------



## Johnny b

* CBP Detains 9-Year-Old US Citizen For 36 Hours, Accuses Her 14-Year-Old Brother Of Sex Trafficking *

https://www.techdirt.com/articles/2...her-14-year-old-brother-sex-trafficking.shtml

another link:
https://www.nbcsandiego.com/news/lo...uses-Her-of-Being-Someone-Else-507394941.html

Interesting: If I use the search terms at Google
* "Fox News" + CBP Detains 9-Year-Old US Citizen *

I don't find any mention at Fox of this incident.

Nor using the search terms
*CBP Detains 9-Year-Old US Citizen *
At the Fox News web site.

I wonder why. (  )


----------



## Johnny b

Darn those facts!

* Trump administration losing 94 percent of lawsuits over illegal policy changes *

https://www.salon.com/2019/03/22/tr...cent-of-lawsuits-over-illegal-policy-changes/



> Federal judges have ruled against the administration at least 63 times since Trump took office, The Washington Post reported. Two-thirds of those cases involved complaints that the administration violated the Administrative Procedure Act, a 1946 law that set procedural requirements that federal agencies must follow when unilaterally changing policies or regulations.
> 
> The normal "win rate" for the government in such cases is about 70 percent, the Post reported, but according to the Institute for Policy Integrity at the New York University School of Law, the Trump administration's win rate in these cases in just 6 percent.


Shocking, just shocking I tell you ............


----------



## Johnny b

Wall Street Journal:

* Mueller Report Concludes, But Other Investigations Loom *

https://www.wsj.com/articles/mueller-report-concludes-but-other-investigations-loom-11553289647



> The conclusion of special counsel Robert Mueller's Russia investigation leaves in its wake about a dozen other probes into President Trump and his associates by an array of federal, state and congressional investigators.


That's not much of a surprise


----------



## Johnny b

Chawbacon said:


> How long was that shut down again? Also, does the length of the shutdown account for a 300% increase?


Policies that result in actions similar to the posted link add to the administrative boondoggle.
Simply the hidden racist agenda of trumpies that hide in the shadows of incompetence.

* Texas flight attendant detained by ICE for weeks after airline's 'administrative error' *

https://www.usatoday.com/story/trav...ed-after-being-detained-ice-weeks/3255849002/

All the while, an upstanding member of her community who worked in a reputable career and paid taxes to the Federal Government, sat in Federal detention for a month with out ever committing a crime, Georgia felons roamed free committing crimes against humanity repeatedly as they pass through the revolving door of the judicial system.
That would be Georgian murderers, rapists and drug dealers, and the Federal government does little to protect the innocent.

Trump....loving to live the life of immorality so long as he doesn't have to live next to it 

Say it ain't so, Jack


----------



## Johnny b

* Mueller report: Investigation found no evidence Trump conspired with Russia, leaves obstruction question open *

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news...vestigation-barr-deliver-congress/3256025002/

Putin smiles.


----------



## Johnny b

So, just how great is Trump at creating jobs, or is he just coasting on Obama's coat tails?

Bureau of Labor statistics compiled at http://www.economagic.com/
would indicate Trump is doing no better than Obama, just continuing the trend of reducing unemployment.








From 1980 to today

I suspect American business is responsible for most of both claims


----------



## Johnny b

The big lie and Mo Brooks.
Or how a propagandist uses reverse logic from past propaganda of a 'Big Lie'.

It now appears trumpies are pushing to eliminate the fundamental right in a free society to question their leaders when their activities appear in conflict with their constitutional rights, national and economic security.

Mo Brooks welcomes in '1984' where fascism becomes the 'good guy'.

But there are no 'good guys' in either fascism or socialism. They are simply polar opposites competing for tyranny.

Mo Brooks presents his own 'Big Lie'

* Alabama Rep. Mo Brooks reads from Hilter's 'Mein Kampf' while bashing Democrats, media *

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news...hitler-house-floor-bash-democrats/3282595002/

Politicians Lie. It's simply what they do.
And Trump seems to have out done all others in recent past.

In the legal sense, he didn't 'collude' with the Russians, he let others around him do it for him.
It's called plausible deniability and it was both Nixon's downfall and a political lesson to those that followed in a political career. It's something needed in order to be an effective despot.

And now Mo tells us the President shouldn't be questioned about the appearance of collusion, which could have been taken as a treasonous act.

And many Americans seem to agree and support Trumpism.
Propaganda works.

Trump dodged a 'bullet'
Putin smiles.


----------



## steppenwolf

looks like Mueller was right all along


----------



## Chawbacon

Johnny b said:


> * CBP Detains 9-Year-Old US Citizen For 36 Hours, Accuses Her 14-Year-Old Brother Of Sex Trafficking *
> 
> https://www.techdirt.com/articles/2...her-14-year-old-brother-sex-trafficking.shtml
> 
> another link:
> https://www.nbcsandiego.com/news/lo...uses-Her-of-Being-Someone-Else-507394941.html
> 
> Interesting: If I use the search terms at Google
> * "Fox News" + CBP Detains 9-Year-Old US Citizen *
> 
> I don't find any mention at Fox of this incident.
> 
> Nor using the search terms
> *CBP Detains 9-Year-Old US Citizen *
> At the Fox News web site.
> 
> I wonder why. (  )


I was able to find your missing article on Fox by simplifying the search criteria to "fox news - CBP 9 yo detained" however, I will agree that this event was severely under reported by Fox News. Just another example of the political bias that infects all of our media today (Liberal and Conservative).
https://www.foxnews.com/us/cbp-defe...ore-than-30-hours-despite-being-a-u-s-citizen


----------



## Chawbacon

Johnny b said:


> Wall Street Journal:
> 
> * Mueller Report Concludes, But Other Investigations Loom *
> 
> https://www.wsj.com/articles/mueller-report-concludes-but-other-investigations-loom-11553289647
> 
> That's not much of a surprise


Ahh... So this really means that the WSJ is continuing to throw a temper tantrum over the results from the Mueller investigation. Thankfully they have a backup investigative plan to help sustain the outrage. I guess that it is asking to much for the WSJ to simply shut up, stomp up the stairs to their room, slam the door, and then sulk in silence for awhile.


----------



## Johnny b

Chawbacon said:


> Ahh... So this really means that the WSJ is continuing to throw a temper tantrum over the results from the Mueller investigation. Thankfully they have a backup investigative plan to help sustain the outrage. I guess that it is asking to much for the WSJ to simply shut up, stomp up the stairs to their room, slam the door, and then sulk in silence for awhile.


Uhmmm, conservatives don't usually do that, Jack.

Oddly, the same guy that owns Fox News also owns WSJ.
Maybe he's hedging his bets? 

https://www.investopedia.com/ask/an...rnal-considered-be-conservative-publisher.asp

WSJ has always been a conservative news outlet LOL!


----------



## Chawbacon

Johnny b said:


> Uhmmm, conservatives don't usually do that, Jack.
> 
> Oddly, the same guy that owns Fox News also owns WSJ.
> Maybe he's hedging his bets?
> 
> https://www.investopedia.com/ask/an...rnal-considered-be-conservative-publisher.asp
> 
> WSJ has always been a conservative news outlet LOL!


Fair enough! My brain was kind of stuck on all of the Liberal media Trump non-collusion denial that I have seen over the last day.
But still... I tip my hat to you.


----------



## Johnny b

Trump is again making threats to close the US-Mexican border

* Trump threatens to seal the border if Mexico doesn't 'immediately stop' immigrants *

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news...-s-mexico-border-over-immigration/3311303002/


----------



## Bastiat

Johnny b said:


> Trump is again making threats to close the US-Mexican border
> 
> * Trump threatens to seal the border if Mexico doesn't 'immediately stop' immigrants *
> 
> https://www.usatoday.com/story/news...-s-mexico-border-over-immigration/3311303002/


Not sure how that helps since the vast majority of illegals don't cross at check points. So essentially he is going to stop legal crossings and shutdown legitimate business between our and other countries. The man is brilliant, brilliant I tell you......just ask him.


----------



## Wino

The Orange Scourge is hell bent on turning Texas Blue. LOL


----------



## Chawbacon

*Trump tees up a health care fight with an uncertain outcome*
https://www.cnn.com/2019/03/31/politics/trump-health-care-political-fight/index.html


> It's with that in mind that Trump backed his White House chief of staff Mick Mulvaney's arguments that the administration should support a federal judge's ruling in Texas invalidating Obamacare in its entirety, a senior White House official and Republican close to the campaign told CNN.


I disagree completely with this decision by the Trump administration. Regardless of my personal opinion about the ACA, it is the responsibility of Congress to create, dismiss, or redefine laws. The Department of Justice is supposed to uphold and defend our existing laws, not pick and choose which laws to support.


----------



## Johnny b

So few seem to give a damn beyond what their take home pay amounts to and buys, here's one for 'you guys'.

* Want your avocados, tomatoes and berries? Trump shutdown of Mexico border could cause shortages *

https://www.usatoday.com/story/mone...tdown-mexico-border-produce-sales/3338165002/



> Closing off trade would disrupt the flow of $26 billion of food imports in the U.S. from Mexico - threatening U.S. shoppers with potential shortages and higher prices for their groceries. Consumers would see the biggest impact at the produce section, which imports nearly $14 billion of fruits and vegetables from Mexico annually.


It wasn't enough to tax the US citizen further through trade tariffs, now you are going to have to pay more for foods, some of which will become scarcer with a border closure. 
Hello demand, meet supply 

In the end, you might just need that red cap as a food source 
A little salt and pepper and I suspect it's almost as good as eating crow.

On the other end of the political scale, potential nominees are promising everything will be free. Just elect them and find out.


I'm doubtful.


----------



## Johnny b

I grew up on a family farm.
We raised and sold tomatoes through our own fruit and vegetable stand.
A pound at a time, 10 cents.
For those that canned, we had specials from time to time and sold by the bushel.
I don't mean those baskets not much bigger than a bucket, I mean the legal size bushel.
In heavy production, $1 a bushel and that included the bushel basket.

Today, I buy tomatoes for about $1.50 a pound and then, only one at a time.


Sure, times change.
But there's something really wrong with our economy and it's spelled 'p-o-l-i-t-i-c-a-l p-r-o-m-i-c-e-s'.

Well, that and the ignorant that believe and elect those that make them.

Any one for a 'Liberty Garden'? Could become a thing, again


----------



## Johnny b

So you say you're on a diet and you don't like Mexican foods to start with.
( This one is for the mouth breathers that don't believe anything could go wrong )

* Trump's threat to close border stirs fears of economic harm *
https://finance.yahoo.com/news/more-officers-may-reassigned-help-border-crush-170813905.html



> "Let's hope the threat is nothing but a bad April Fools' joke," said economist Dan Griswold at the Mercatus Center at George Mason University in Virginia. He said Trump's threat would be the "height of folly," noting that an average of 15,000 trucks and $1.6 billion in goods cross the border every day.
> 
> "If trade were interrupted, U.S. producers would suffer crippling disruptions of their supply chains, American families would see prices spike for food and cars, and U.S. exporters would be cut off from their third-largest market," he said.


I know, I know. Trump just recently screwed over Ford with a $1 billion loss because of tariffs.......and yet they are still building vehicles.
But what happens when/if Ford can't buy the imported parts it needs to build vehicles? hmmm?

BTW, George Mason U is very conservative 



> In California's Imperial Valley, across from Mexicali, Mexico, farmers rely on workers who come across every day from Mexico to harvest fields of lettuce, carrots, onions and other winter vegetables. Shopping mall parking lots in the region are filled with cars with Mexican plates.


Seriously. Trump is worse at economics than each of the last 6 Presidents 
Apparently all he knows about are shyster deals which he uplifted to an art form.
He is a worse friend to business than Obama.

So, think mindless thoughts have a blessed day


----------



## Johnny b

Say What?

It's been less than a day, and all of a sudden, Trump doesn't want the border closed.

* Trump now says Congress must act to keep southern border open *
https://www.cnn.com/2019/04/02/politics/donald-trump-immigration-congress-border-closure/index.html

Apparently his strategy is to confuse everyone.

Putin frowns. That wasn't in the script.


----------



## Chawbacon

Johnny b said:


> Say What?
> 
> It's been less than a day, and all of a sudden, Trump doesn't want the border closed.


This is what you took from that article. Surely your are not being intentionally obtuse??? 

Guess I need to break this down for our other readers.

Trump obviously does not want to close the southern border. If that was his true intention, Trump has the authority to shut down the border (including all immigration if desired) at any time of his choosing. Trump realizes that the root cause of the crisis on our southern border is due to a combination of enforcement of our existing immigration laws, existing bad immigration laws (chain migration, immigration lotteries, etc.) and loopholes in laws specifically designed to address claims of sanctuary status. Only congress can has the authority to change these laws.

And, yes, I understand that a significant part of the problem is due to societal upheaval and wars/insurrections being conducted in some South American countries. Regardless, the U.S. cannot continue to absorb and support the South American poverty problem. Throwing money to the countries having issues, is problematic at best, since much of the money has been historically diverted to the receiving countries ruling class, or military departments, instead of the intended citizenry. I truly wish that I had a solution for this mess... a solution that does not involve open borders, or catch and release policies for illegal aliens.


----------



## Johnny b

Chawbacon said:


> This is what you took from that article. Surely your are not being intentionally obtuse???
> 
> Guess I need to break this down for our other readers.
> 
> Trump obviously does not want to close the southern border. If that was his true intention, Trump has the authority to shut down the border (including all immigration if desired) at any time of his choosing. Trump realizes that the root cause of the crisis on our southern border is due to a combination of enforcement of our existing immigration laws, existing bad immigration laws (chain migration, immigration lotteries, etc.) and loopholes in laws specifically designed to address claims of sanctuary status. Only congress can has the authority to change these laws.
> 
> And, yes, I understand that a significant part of the problem is due to societal upheaval and wars/insurrections being conducted in some South American countries. Regardless, the U.S. cannot continue to absorb and support the South American poverty problem. Throwing money to the countries having issues, is problematic at best, since much of the money has been historically diverted to the receiving countries ruling class, or military departments, instead of the intended citizenry. I truly wish that I had a solution for this mess... a solution that does not involve open borders, or catch and release policies for illegal aliens.


Amazing. 
Do you ever think for yourself?

There is no imminent national security issue because of illegal immigration.
There are no statistics that support the concept of their presence being a national security issue. It's a made up lie that Trump used when a candidate, to rally those institutional racists through out the US. And it turned out to be effective.

There does exist a resulting national economic crisis from what Trump first claimed he sought. You obviously wore your blinders as so not to be contaminated with reality (  )
It's rather obvious someone got to Trump and brought clarity to him, that a failed second run at the Presidency would likely be the result of closed borders.

Destroying an economy is not a logical solution to a non existent national security problem. But it would certainly create one.

This is merely the idiot Trump backpedaling after realizing what a fool he is and is desperate to save face.
He's looking for someone else to take the blame for a resulting economic crisis that obviously would result from a closed southern border, while satisfying his racist base..



> I truly wish that I had a solution for this mess... a solution that does not involve open borders, or catch and release policies for illegal aliens.


A closed society is what you're seeking.
Little Rocket Man has the solution you're looking for 



> Guess I need to break this down for our other readers.


There have been comments that this forum isn't what it used to be.
There used to be challenges between members.
Logic.
I miss it.
As to the number of readers? Only a handful day to day and apparently too apathetic to post their thoughts.
And you are simply wrong most of the time


----------



## Johnny b

Chawbacon said:


> ...................
> 
> Trump obviously does not want to close the southern border.................


Trump obviously does LOL!
Trump obviously does not have the backing of the Congress in his quest to close the southern border.
And taking all the heat from creating a national economic emergency isn't lost on him.
At least not after it was explained what could happen.

* White House looks to minimize economic impact of Trump's threatened closure of Mexico border *

https://www.washingtonpost.com/busi...e9-8ef3-fbd41a2ce4d5_story.html?noredirect=on

Trump has lost influence in the House and now the powers that be, in the Senate, are showing some backbone when it comes to issues that directly affect their constituents economically. ( an issue of being re-elected, obviously  )



> Senate Republicans have also begun sounding alarms about what might happen if Trump follows through on his threat, focusing on the economic impact because that often resonates with Trump.
> 
> "Closing down the border would have a potentially catastrophic economic impact on our country, and I would hope that we would not be doing that sort of thing," McConnell told reporters Tuesday.
> 
> Sen. John Neely Kennedy (R-La.) said shutting down the border could cost the U.S. economy $1 billion to $2 billion each day.


According to the above article, even those in the White House are trying to convince Trump, his plans for a closed border is a bad idea that adversely affects the US economy.

Another Republican President once quipped, *"If this were a dictatorship, it'd be a heck of a lot easier, just so long as I'm the dictator." *

Apparently Trump believed in the idea.

Now he's even backpedaling on eliminating Obamacare on the assumption there will be more support in Congress after the next election.

I wonder how Trump feels today about being President for Life?


----------



## Johnny b

Wino said:


> The Orange Scourge is hell bent on turning Texas Blue. LOL


That reminds me.......
There's a new video out about Trump and oranges








Damn those oranges!  LOL!


----------



## Wino

Hey, I remember reading the "Oranges of Species" years ago !! 

Turnip has never been very bright, slow thinker, unread and signs of dementia are setting in. Before it's over, he will be worse than Reagan at the end of his second term.


----------



## valis

And now his dad is from Germany....I am wondering about that dementia claim nowadays as well.


----------



## Chawbacon

I know that OAN News leans conservative pretty hard in their overall support of Trump; but, I wanted to know what you guys make of their Illegal Alien Cost chart?

Not a video link... Just grabbed a snip off the main page.

https://www.oann.com/


----------



## Johnny b

Dementia?

You can add Trump's belief that noise from wind farms causes cancer.

* Donald Trump said wind turbines cause cancer. Chuck Grassley called that 'idiotic.' *
https://www.desmoinesregister.com/s...bines-chuck-grassley-iowa-idiotic/3356122002/

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news...ent-donald-trump-claim-blown-away/3352175002/

Imagine a job like this:

* Imagine Being the White House Staffer Who Has to Pretend Windmill Noises Might Cause Cancer *

https://www.spin.com/2019/04/trump-windmills-nice-cancer-white-house/


----------



## Chawbacon

Johnny b said:


> Dementia?
> 
> You can add Trump's belief that noise from wind farms causes cancer.
> 
> * Donald Trump said wind turbines cause cancer. Chuck Grassley called that 'idiotic.' *
> https://www.desmoinesregister.com/s...bines-chuck-grassley-iowa-idiotic/3356122002/
> 
> https://www.usatoday.com/story/news...ent-donald-trump-claim-blown-away/3352175002/
> 
> https://www.spin.com/2019/04/trump-windmills-nice-cancer-white-house/


Very Funny! Ever consider that the President was making a joke here? We will have to wait for the White House follow-up to these left-wing hit jobs. However, if Trump doubles down... Yeah... I will agree with you on this one.


----------



## Wino

Chawbacon said:


> I know that OAN News leans conservative pretty hard in their overall support of Trump; but, I wanted to know what you guys make of their Illegal Alien Cost chart?
> 
> Not a video link... Just grabbed a snip off the main page.
> 
> https://www.oann.com/
> View attachment 269264


I suspect the cost $$$'s also include the cost of Turnips ill thought out war on immigration, cost of some replaced walls, sending military to the border for no legit reason and Zeus only knows what else was thrown in to make it look bad.


----------



## Johnny b

Chawbacon said:


> ........... I wanted to know what you guys make of their Illegal Alien Cost chart?
> 
> ......................
> 
> https://www.oann.com/
> View attachment 269264


Looks bogus to me.
That's the only claim I've ever seen of 26 million illegal aliens in the US.
More than twice all the other claims.
Stats show the illegal population has been declining, not increasing.

You don't like Wikipedia, but this is not opinion, it's backed up in footnotes.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Illegal_immigration_to_the_United_States
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Illegal_immigrant_population_of_the_United_States

* File:Selected Unauthorized Immigration Statistics.png *










There in no National Security Threat.


----------



## Wino

Dementia?? I'm starting to believe he's just plain old stupid.


----------



## Johnny b

Wino said:


> I suspect the cost $$$'s also include the cost of Turnips ill thought out war on immigration, cost of some replaced walls, sending military to the border for no legit reason and Zeus only knows what else was thrown in to make it look bad.


I suspect the costs posted are as bogus as the number of illegal immigrants posted.
Just made up BS, alternative facts.....ie, Trumptonian math.


----------



## Johnny b

Chawbacon said:


> Very Funny! Ever consider that the President was making a joke here? We will have to wait for the White House follow-up to these left-wing hit jobs. However, if Trump doubles down... Yeah... I will agree with you on this one.


It was no joke.
It actually began because of golf. The game.

You can do the leg work. Hint, it began in Scotland


----------



## Chawbacon

Johnny b said:


> I suspect the costs posted are as bogus as the number of illegal immigrants posted.
> Just made up BS, alternative facts.....ie, Trumptonian math.


Yale - MIT Report = Est. 22.1 Million 
https://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0201193#sec006​
As for the cost, I am pretty close to agreeing with you; but, I have not looked closely into how the sourced information was determined. 
​Here is a graph from that report since you like them so much Johnny.


----------



## Johnny b

Chawbacon said:


> Yale - MIT Report = Est. 22.1 Million
> https://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0201193#sec006​...................
> 
> ..........


I liked this:



> While our analysis delivers different results, we note that it is based on many assumptions.


Yeah buddy 

More than a 200% difference.
And they admit it disagrees with everybody else, including the Gov't stats, which I provided in those graphs.

But here's a fallacy.

Stated:


> The most widely accepted estimate of this number currently is approximately 11.3 million [1, 2]. This estimate is based on variants of the residual method [2-4]. In this method, the size of the unauthorized immigrant population residing in the United States is set equal to the estimate of the total foreign-born population minus the legally resident foreign-born population. The total foreign-born population estimate is derived from surveys that ask respondents whether they were born outside of the United States (and whether they are American citizens), specifically either the American Community Survey or the Current Population Survey.


However, the above was used to establish the base illegal population in 1990.



> An alternative approach to estimating the size of the undocumented population follows directly from basic demographic principles. Starting from a known population size at a given date


Which was derived in what manner?



> We employ this approach to estimate the number of undocumented immigrants in the U.S. for each year from 1990 to 2016, using the best available data and parameter values from the academic literature and government sources.


Government sources would be * American Community Survey or the Current Population Survey. *
But what would the academic sources be?

The 1990 base line coincides with accepted values. 
This is the first fallacy. The argument is that all data has been under reported. While that doesn't help my argument, it shows the sloppiness of their methodology.
If the 1990 data posted is the same as the gov'ts, academic input would be
the same as the gov't. If the same, how can it be claimed as under reported?
Starting a statistical representation with fallacious reasoning is only a flawed representation.

Skipping much further. another misrepresentation occurred.
And this is the biggie.

Visa overstays. They are included

The topic is illegal immigrants.
The title of this research article contains these words:


> The number of undocumented immigrants in the United States


Visa overstays are not immigrants. Even if they come from the same country. Different data.
Visa overstays are documented temporary residents that didn't go home.

*For 7th Consecutive Year, Visa Overstays Exceeded Illegal Border Crossings [*
https://www.npr.org/2019/01/16/6860...erstays-exceeded-illegal-border-crossings[/b]

In your mad dash search for a similar data to prove a bogus point , you only wasted my time.
To boot, I've brought up this separate Visa overstay problem before.

Jack, you are an official TSG time waster 

And I'll add the assumptions made were incredibly astounding 
Especially the Voluntary emigration rates. Just make 'em up and assume they are written in stone 

Sigh. Even Mulder made sense some of the time 
I wonder what he's up to?


----------



## Johnny b

Chawbacon said:


> .
> Here is a graph from that report since you like them so much Johnny.
> .................


Correction, that wasn't a report.
That was a peer reviewed research article built on assumptions and stated as such.

I noticed the peer review is by an open access scientific journal. ie......something on the Internet.
I am astonished no one there noticed the discrepancy between the title and the inclusion of elements not germane to the stated subject.


----------



## Chawbacon

Thanks for the response Johnny. You bring up some very salient points to which I would like to reply.



Johnny b said:


> The 1990 base line coincides with accepted values.
> This is the first fallacy. The argument is that all data has been under reported. While that doesn't help my argument, it shows the sloppiness of their methodology.


I understand your argument here; however, I can also understand that the current model being used by most agencies may have a wider range of inaccuracy than anticipated. We should keep in mind that the purpose of the analysis was to challenge the standard methodology for counting illegal immigrants residing inside the U.S. You rightly pointed out the fallacies; however, we should also look at how Yale-MIT implemented the updated methodology. Here is the high level overview:


> The model works as follows (mathematical formulation, parameter values, and data sources underlying this model are detailed in the Supporting Information). For our conservative estimate we begin with a starting 1990 population of 3.5 million undocumented immigrants, in agreement with the standard estimate [1]. The estimate of 3.5 million undocumented immigrants in 1990 is based on applying the residual method (using the 1980 and 1990 censuses), described previously, which we argue systematically underestimates the population. Thus in assuming an initial population of 3.5 million, and centering our simulations around this value, we are almost certainly underestimating the size of the undocumented immigrant population at this date. In the simulations we assume that the starting population is drawn from a Poisson distribution with a mean of 3.5 million. It then follows that the population size at a future date equals the starting value plus the cumulative inflows minus the cumulative outflows.


I find no issues with the overall concept of measurement; however, challenging the math behind the computations is definitely fair game for argument. Moving on...


Johnny b said:


> If the 1990 data posted is the same as the gov'ts, academic input would be
> the same as the gov't. If the same, how can it be claimed as under reported?
> Starting a statistical representation with fallacious reasoning is only a flawed representation.


 The 1990 data was simply used as as a starting point. Obviously the starting point was not zero; therefore, using the widely accepted baseline as the starting point is logically sound. Otherwise you are implying that the graphs that you posted, which are based upon the same methodology, are also flawed by default. 


Johnny b said:


> Visa overstays. They are included
> 
> The topic is illegal immigrants.
> The title of this research article contains these words:
> Visa overstays are not immigrants. Even if they come from the same country. Different data.
> Visa overstays are documented temporary residents that didn't go home.


Very true! Granted, I believe that the focus should be on illegal aliens within the U.S., so I see the word-smithing as mostly an argument over semantics. Regardless, your point is accurate.


Johnny b said:


> In your mad dash search for a similar data to prove a bogus point , you only wasted my time.
> To boot, I've brought up this separate Visa overstay problem before.


Such an accusation! "Mad Dash" indeed. The paper (since the word report seems to offend you here  ) that I have referenced is one of the computational source for the original topic about the OANN illegal immigration cost calculator.


----------



## Johnny b

Chawbacon said:


> ................
> 
> Such an accusation! "Mad Dash" indeed. The paper (since the word report seems to offend you here :.................


No. That's all on you .
Shame on you 
You presented an argument inclusive of a different issue of illegal residency. 
BTW...it's generally thought that the number of Visa overstays is slightly greater than the number of illegal undocumented immigrants.
With the undocumented added to the documented visa overstays, the number does come out to equal to or greater than 22 million.
Check out the other graph.

1.Far left is the standard undocumented
2.Middle conservative estimate.
3.But the far right while labeled 'undocumented immigrant population' actually represents both undocumented and visa overstays.
And the resultant is about the same that is currently accepted 










You either missed that, or ignored it.
Simply put, imo, the research paper was crapola with a heavy dose of gobbele-de-**** 

You obviously are a Google search warrior 
You saw a graph that looked good. To you LOL!
You copied and pasted it into a discussion about Hispanics illegally immigrating into the US.
And you went blind to reality 
The article was flawed in at least 2 ways, one incredibly, as noted.

Sigh, you've done this before. 
Keep it up and I'll have to call you Mike !


----------



## Chawbacon

Johnny b said:


> No. That's all on you .
> Shame on you
> You presented an argument inclusive of a different issue of illegal residency.


What???? I did not make that argument concerning the OANN reporting. I simply asked for opinions of the individuals reading in this thread "Trump Term of Office" and the OANN chart is titled "The Cost of Illegal Immigration." Personally, I have not made up my mind on this one, due to the costs appearing to be quite exorbitant.


Johnny b said:


> 1.Far left is the standard undocumented
> 2.Middle conservative estimate.
> 3.But the far right while labeled 'undocumented immigrant population' actually represents both undocumented and visa overstays.
> And the resultant is about the same that is currently accepted


And yet (using Johnny logic here) you willingly ignore that the upper end of the graph indicates illegal aliens totaling upwards of 33 million within the U.S.?  Might want to lay off the hard stuff for a few days.  Just kidding. Drink up! It makes this forum more entertaining.  And just so that we are clear, that is a joke and I am not calling you an alcoholic.


Johnny b said:


> You obviously are a Google search warrior
> You saw a graph that looked good. To you LOL!
> You copied and pasted it into a discussion about Hispanics illegally immigrating into the US.


Sigh... Again... The graph was within the "paper" that OANN used as one of it's sources.


----------



## Johnny b

Chawbacon said:


> ....................
> The 1990 data was simply used as as a starting point. Obviously the starting point was not zero; therefore, using the widely accepted baseline as the starting point is logically sound. Otherwise you are implying that the graphs that you posted, which are based upon the same methodology, are also flawed by default. ...................
> 
> ..................


Surely you realize that made no sense? 
They started with what they claimed was flawed data and used it as a base line LOL!


----------



## Johnny b

And the back pedaling begins 



Chawbacon said:


> What???? I did not make that argument concerning the OANN reporting. I simply asked for opinions of the individuals reading in this thread "Trump Term of Office" and the OANN chart is titled "The Cost of Illegal Immigration." Personally, I have not made up my mind on this one, due to the costs appearing to be quite exorbitant.


But you referred to it and held it up for all to see ....and obviously not knowing how silly it looked 

Ah...i see you're going 'strawman'
Coldn't prove your point? 


> And yet (using Johnny logic here) you willingly ignore that the upper end of the graph indicates illegal aliens totaling upwards of 33 million within the U.S.?  Might want to lay off the hard stuff for a few days.  Just kidding. Drink up! It makes this forum more entertaining.  And just so that we are clear, that is a joke and I am not calling you an alcoholic.


Why are you referring to 'OANN'?
I've been discussing the article you referred to here:
https://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0201193#sec006

I think you are confused 


> Sigh... Again... The graph was within the "paper" that OANN used as one of it's sources.


Bad source


----------



## Johnny b

Mike......errrr....I mean Jack (  ) I'm disappointed you had no come back logic last night.
I waited in anticipation. Really 
Well.....I get up early and all I have to comment on is what i saved for today 

But anyway:


> And yet (using Johnny logic here) you willingly ignore that the upper end of the graph indicates illegal aliens totaling upwards of 33 million within the U.S.?


Really. You didn't see the misdirections in that graph?
I've seen your posts helping others with math issues in Excel and thought it would be obvious.

First, there is only a 'range' expressed with their own data. That blue area under the curve expresses a 'high' and a 'low'. You recognized the 'high' but ignored the 'low'.
That blue area expresses 'range of data' or more simply, the error built into their mathematical model.....all those 'assumptions' 
But nothing expressing the range of the currently accepted value.
This is a pretty big fallacy. 
The fallacy of Suppressed Evidence is categorized as a Fallacy of Presumption because it creates the presumption that the true premises are complete.
And it passed peer review LOL! (  )

But that really isn't the worst of it.
Did you bother to consider that error rate? The difference between their 'high' and their 'low' estimate.

My goodness! Its about +/- 50% LOL!
And it even has a sliding scale associated with it!



> As for the cost, I am pretty close to agreeing with you; but, I have not looked closely into how the sourced information was determined.


I suspect blindfolded


----------



## Johnny b

This could be interesting 

Has the poop just hit the fan for all those Trumpies?

* Michael Cohen says he's found an old hard drive with 14 million files of potentially damaging evidence on Trump *

https://www.businessinsider.com/coh...with-14-million-files-harmful-to-trump-2019-4



> "Mr. Cohen has recently obtained a hard drive with 14 million files from his computers and phones over the past 10 years, which we believe has significant value to the various congressional oversight and investigation committees."


Cohen could ( and probably will ) write a book about his memoirs and call it:

'The Art of the Deal, part Two' LOL!


----------



## Johnny b

I hope Trump doesn't read this, he's paranoid enough as it is .

* 'Dozens' of Whistle-Blowers Are Secretly Cooperating With House Democrats *
https://www.theatlantic.com/politic...ion-whistleblowers-democrats-congress/586459/

Poor guy. As it it wasn't enough for his fixer to turn on him. ( LOL....just kidding )


----------



## Johnny b

Unbelievable.

Well, under the current circumstances maybe not.

* Trump Picks Herman Cain for Fed Seat *
https://www.wsj.com/articles/trump-...position-on-federal-reserve-board-11554399187

This is insanity.
Herman obviously has had a break with reality some time in his life and it's questionable whether he ever came back.

The 9 9 9.
That's the Herman solution for tax reform.

* Herman Cain's 9-9-9 Plan Straight Out of SimCity? *
https://www.forbes.com/sites/insertcoin/2011/10/14/herman-cains-9-9-9-plan-straight-out-of-simcity/










And now Trump wants Herman on the Federal Reserve's board of governors?
The Donald must really hate our guts


----------



## Wino

NEIN! NEIN! NEIN!!!


----------



## Johnny b

Herman's back in the news even before he's had a chance to screw us over 

*Herman Cain Opens a New #MeToo Minefield for Republicans *

https://www.nytimes.com/2019/04/05/business/herman-cain-federal-reserve.html



> Payments to women who complained of sexual harassment. Accusations of groping. Allegations of a 13-year extramarital affair.
> 
> As President Trump moves ahead with his plan to nominate Herman Cain, a 2012 Republican presidential candidate, for a seat on the Federal Reserve's board of governors, Republican lawmakers are being forced to confront a fresh round of uncomfortable allegations of sexual misconduct against women as the 2020 campaign begins.


Yep. Trump really knows how to pick 'em.


----------



## Johnny b

Just can't get enough of Herman 

* Herman Cain says he faces 'cumbersome' vetting for Fed board seat *
https://www.yahoo.com/news/herman-c...me-vetting-fed-board-232915432--business.html



> In a video posted on Facebook late Friday, Cain said he must turn over records from 50 years in business, including numerous professional jobs, service on boards, and extensive speeches.
> 
> The 73-year-old said it was not clear if he will pass the ongoing FBI background check, a standard practice before a high-ranking nomination.


----------



## Johnny b

Don the shyster is back to his trade war with new targets.

* Trump Threatens New EU Tariffs on Helicopters, Motorcycles, Cheese and Wine *
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/arti...u-airbus-subsidies-with-threat-of-new-tariffs


----------



## Johnny b

*Multi-state lawsuits against Trump in 2 years exceed those against Obama, Bush in 8 years *

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news...ften-democratic-attorneys-general/3143366002/

Title says it all 

But I got a chuckle out of this:



> President Donald Trump had high praise for the nation's attorneys general when he invited them to the State Dining room in March.
> 
> "You are very special people and doing a very special and important job," Trump told the gathering.
> 
> Increasingly, however, their job is suing Trump.


----------



## Johnny b

* Poll: Americans say Trump has made race relations worse *

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news...bad-and-trump-has-made-them-worse/3418375002/

No surprise there.



> A new survey by the non-partisan Pew Research Center reveals nearly six in 10 Americans believe race relations in the country are bad, and 56% think President Donald Trump has made them worse.


----------



## Wino

Is there anything more gullible than a Trump supporter???


----------



## Johnny b

Shyster Don again refuses to release his past tax returns.
Meanwhile, 'evangelicals' worship him as God's emissary.

A real and wise Republican President once said


> You can fool all the people some of the time, and some of the people all the time, but you cannot fool all the people all the time.


* Trump says he will not release his tax returns *

https://finance.yahoo.com/news/trump-says-not-release-tax-returns-134728026.html

I wonder how this one works out


----------



## Bastiat

So I read but can not vouch for the accuracy of this story. Supposedly Trump was visiting Mount Vernon with the president of the Mount Vernon Society. Trump told the gentleman that George Washington screwed up by not naming Mount Vernon after himself. He explained that is how people will remember you, naming something after yourself. The president of the Mount Vernon Society explained to Trump that George has a city named after him so he doubted people would forget Washington.


----------



## Couriant

Bastiat said:


> So I read but can not vouch for the accuracy of this story. Supposedly Trump was visiting Mount Vernon with the president of the Mount Vernon Society. Trump told the gentleman that George Washington screwed up by not naming Mount Vernon after himself. He explained that is how people will remember you, naming something after yourself. The president of the Mount Vernon Society explained to Trump that George has a city named after him so he doubted people would forget Washington.


And he has roads named after him everywhere....


----------



## Johnny b

And in his first term, no less.
Trump essentially has his minions break the law for him with a promise to pardon in advance.
If he does this, and 'gets away' with it, he's become a defacto dictator.

* Reports: Trump offered to pardon Homeland Security head if law broken while closing border *

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news...d-security-secretary-close-border/3450995002/



> President Donald Trump reportedly offered to pardon Kevin McAleenan, the acting Homeland Security secretary, if he violated the law and was arrested for blocking entry into the U.S. along the southern border, CNN and The New York Times reported.
> 
> While touring the border, Trump told McAleenan to close the border and he "would pardon him if he ever went to jail for denying US entry to migrants," CNN reported. The Times reported the conversation centered on closing the entirety of the southwest border, not just migrants seeking entry.


----------



## Johnny b

While this is an opinion piece, the subject matter is of importance.
Trump has been pushing the idea that it is treason to question his actions.
Trump has verbally attacked and made false claims on anyone that disagrees with him, Democrats and Republicans, past Presidents and war heroes included. His conduct has been suspicious in regards to his election, his leadership, his conduct, ethics and morality as a citizen.
And now a Washington Post columnist puts together Trump's attempt to further polarize our society in an attempt to cement his power.

* For Trump, the name of the season is treason *
https://www.washingtonpost.com/opin...e9-a00e-050dc7b82693_story.html?noredirect=on



> Trump has publicly invoked "treason" or "treasonous" on 26 occasions, according to the Factba.se compilation of Trump utterances. That's in addition to various and sundry "traitor" references. He began by accusing the likes of Bowe Bergdahl, Edward Snowden and Chelsea Manning, then moved on to include the executives of Univision and Macy's, Republicans who didn't support him, Democratic lawmakers who didn't applaud him, the failing New York Times, the media generally, people in his administration who leak, and Barack Obama, Bill Clinton, Hillary Clinton, John Podesta, Eric Holder, Loretta E. Lynch, Huma Abedin, James B. Comey, James R. Clapper Jr., Rod J. Rosenstein, Robert S. Mueller III, Andrew McCabe, Lisa Page and Peter Strzok.





> The Constitution specifically says treason "shall consist only in levying war against" the United States "or in adhering to their enemies, giving them aid and comfort," and it requires two witnesses. The U.S. Criminal Code requires that those guilty of treason "shall suffer death, or shall be imprisoned not less than five years."


Two witnesses? The whole world has been watching Trump and commenting and many of those comments seem to make him very nervous and irrational


----------



## Idontknow.

Tabvla said:


> There are two questions that Forum Members might like to think about and then give their view.
> 
> Q1. How many days will Trump serve as US President?
> Q2. For what reason will his presidency be ended?
> 
> ------------------------- Some info to help answer the questions -------------------------
> 
> Minimum number of days : 1 day
> Maximum number of days : 2,922 days (8 x 365 + 2)
> 
> Possible reasons for presidency to be terminated (in Alphabetical order)
> 
> Completes both terms and therefore must leave office
> 
> Completes first term and does not get re-elected
> Impeachment
> Loses the support of the Republican Party
> Resignation due to perceived threat of danger
> 
> Resignation due to personal issues
> 
> Scandals
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> 
> T.
> 
> [Edited to reflect Littlefield's suggestion]


How humiliating not to see your fantasies come to life.


----------



## Johnny b

Idontknow. said:


> How humiliating not to see your fantasies come to life.


Do you have any original thoughts of your own other than a short sound byte? 
More importantly,
Do you practice goose stepping when Fox News comes on?


----------



## Johnny b

Some of the Trump/Russian investigation is starting to actually see the light of day, well other than the redactions.

* Mueller report documents links between Trump campaign and Russia, steps to thwart probe; finds no conspiracy *

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news...elease-investigation-trump-russia/3330151002/



> The report also detailed steps by the president and those around him to thwart the investigation that shadowed the first two years of his administration. Mueller's office did not conclude that Trump's actions were illegal, but also pointedly refused to clear him of wrongdoing, stating *"if we had confidence after a thorough investigation of the facts that the president clearly did not commit obstruction of justice, we would so state."*


----------



## Idontknow.

Johnny b said:


> Some of the Trump/Russian investigation is starting to actually see the light of day, well other than the redactions.
> 
> * Mueller report documents links between Trump campaign and Russia, steps to thwart probe; finds no conspiracy *
> 
> https://www.usatoday.com/story/news...elease-investigation-trump-russia/3330151002/


People think they have some privilege to govt secrets. They don't!


----------



## Idontknow.

Johnny b said:


> Do you have any original thoughts of your own other than a short sound byte?
> More importantly,
> Do you practice goose stepping when Fox News comes on?


I watch FOX about ten minutes a week. Any other not so brilliant observations coming from that left wing way?


----------



## Johnny b

So you admit to watching Fox?


----------



## Johnny b

Idontknow. said:


> People think they have some privilege to govt secrets. They don't!


looks like you are wrong.
And more to come


----------



## storage_man

Just go to the DOJ site to view the Fake Collusion Report -> https://www.justice.gov/storage/report.pdf


----------



## Johnny b

I removed the link I posted.
It was incomplete by 1/2

Thanks for the correction.


----------



## Idontknow.

Johnny b said:


> So you admit to watching Fox?


Yeah and CNN and local news. And?


----------



## Johnny b

Idontknow. said:


> Yeah and CNN and local news. And?


Shame on you LOL!


----------



## valis

Idontknow. said:


> Yeah and CNN and local news. And?


I do not, but I dont like my opinion being given to me. And IMHO, that is what ALL the major 'news' channels do. Absolutely everything has a 'breaking news' banner.

I trust few websites and fewer people; if I cannot find the data to fit my belief it may be time to change my belief. But the bottom line is I do my own research prior to coming to an opinion.

Having said that, I trust and regard Trump about as far as I could throw a city bus. Having said THAT, your view is just that; a view. My pop loves him and we have come to an agreeance not to mix politics and Scotch.


----------



## Johnny b

valis said:


> I do not, but I dont like my opinion being given to me. .........
> 
> ..............


That's the problem with most if not all the TV and cable news outlets. 
They are more like endless round table discussions, rerun on the hour.
Not enough world news, imo.


----------



## Idontknow.

Johnny b said:


> Shame on you LOL!


And about 10 other sources.


----------



## valis

Idontknow. said:


> And about 10 other sources.


Agreeance on that.


----------



## Johnny b

Idontknow. said:


> And about 10 other sources.


Obviously


----------



## Bastiat

valis said:


> I do not, but I dont like my opinion being given to me. And IMHO, that is what ALL the major 'news' channels do.


Watch the BBC or BBC America. First thing you notice is the young lady isn't sitting in a dress with her legs displayed center of your TV. FOX sells sex in the form of "newscasters". Second is you'll notice that they are fairly neutral when it comes to reporting on the US. I'll know when FOX has turned the corner when it has an ugly woman broadcasting the news. Who was hired for her brains and talent.


----------



## valis

I check bbc.com daily; everything stateside seems juuuussst a bit biased across the board.


----------



## Bastiat

valis said:


> I check bbc.com daily; everything stateside seems juuuussst a bit biased across the board.


Just goes to show that one mans' bias is another mans' neutral.


----------



## Johnny b

* Trump, business organization sue Democratic House chairman *

https://finance.yahoo.com/news/trump-business-organization-sue-democratic-134642819.html



> President Donald Trump and his business organization sued the Democratic chairman of the House oversight committee on Monday to block a subpoena that seeks years of the president's financial records.
> 
> The complaint, filed in federal court in Washington, says the subpoena from Rep. Elijah Cummings "has no legitimate legislative purpose" and accuses Democrats of harassing Trump and wielding their new majority in Congress to try to stain the president's standing.


A natural response:
I wonder what Trump is trying to hide?

It certainly isn't his buffoonery.
His Russian connection come back to bite him in his posterior?
Or just mundane criminal business activity in the shadows, on a world scale?

Maybe the Donald needs investigating, again.
Oh, wait......it's being done as I type this post


----------



## Johnny b

How to beat the system. Your minions don't follow all their orders from the 'boss'.

*Trump says 'nobody disobeys my orders.' Here are 15 recorded instances of exactly that. *

https://www.washingtonpost.com/poli...y-orders-heres-how-wrong-he-is/?noredirect=on



> By essentially ignoring the boss on potentially obstructive acts, the narrative holds, these aides may have saved Trump from himself.
> 
> Toward the bottom of the list, we have also added previously known incidents of top aides declining to carry out Trump's orders.
> 
> The list:


The list is 15 examples.
How many more that go unreported is probably due to staff wanting to keep their jobs. But it's been reported that documents and written concerns have been pulled from Trump's desk before he could read them.

ie......many around Trump working for the government do not trust him and his ironic state of ignorance became a perfect alibi for collusion. Perhaps even obstruction.


----------



## Lanctus

Trump is the avatar for the Dunning-Kruger Effect. https://www.verywellmind.com/an-overview-of-the-dunning-kruger-effect-4160740


----------



## Wino

Trump broke the Dunning-Kruger scale (plunging to abysmal) plus given a whole new meaning to kakistocracy.


----------



## Johnny b

Add BS Receptivity to Trump's mental problems.


----------



## Drabdr

valis said:


> I do not, but I dont like my opinion being given to me. And IMHO, that is what ALL the major 'news' channels do. Absolutely everything has a 'breaking news' banner.
> 
> I trust few websites and fewer people; if I cannot find the data to fit my belief it may be time to change my belief. But the bottom line is I do my own research prior to coming to an opinion.


I'm not sure why I stuck my head in this quilting bee full of old, whiny ladies, , but I did want to say I totally agree with this. 
Honestly.. to me, there is no real news anymore. Someone comes out with a story, and everyone else just runs with the EXACT same story. Same words; same everything. Does anyone do journalism anymore? Maybe... just maybe... the front page of the Wall Street journal is OK... (just the facts). Otherwise, I have to google whatever it is, and read two pages of cover to see if I might could figure out the truth (or reality). It's really kind of sad.

Having said that, I trust and regard Trump about as far as I could throw a city bus. Having said THAT, your view is just that; a view. My pop loves him and we have come to an agreeance not to mix politics and Scotch.[/QUOTE] Tell your pops he has a fan in Arlington!


----------



## valis

LOL! Can do, Brad. Can do.


----------



## Johnny b

Drabdr said:


> I'm not sure why I stuck my head in this quilting bee full of old, whiny ladies, ,........................
> 
> .............




Just checking up on us lol


----------



## Wino

Drabdr said:


> I'm not sure why I stuck my head in this quilting bee full of old, whiny ladies, , but I did want to say I totally agree with this.
> Honestly.. to me, there is no real news anymore. Someone comes out with a story, and everyone else just runs with the EXACT same story. Same words; same everything. Does anyone do journalism anymore? Maybe... just maybe... the front page of the Wall Street journal is OK... (just the facts). Otherwise, I have to google whatever it is, and read two pages of cover to see if I might could figure out the truth (or reality). It's really kind of sad.
> 
> Having said that, I trust and regard Trump about as far as I could throw a city bus. Having said THAT, your view is just that; a view. My pop loves him and we have come to an agreeance not to mix politics and Scotch.


I suspect it has something to do with your seeking absolution for past sins of omissions - many republicans are morphing into concerned citizens - unfortunately, too late for it to be meaningful. Like the dog that finally caught the car - now what????


----------



## Drabdr

Wino said:


> I suspect it has something to do with your seeking absolution for past sins of omissions - many republicans are morphing into concerned citizens - unfortunately, too late for it to be meaningful. Like the dog that finally caught the car - now what????


Ha! More like sticking my head in a bees nest! 

I hope you've been well.


----------



## Drabdr

Johnny b said:


> Just checking up on us lol


By the looks of things... I might have to check up a little more often.


----------



## Johnny b

* Trump vows to hit back at EU as tariffs bite Harley-Davidson *

https://finance.yahoo.com/news/trump-vows-hit-back-eu-tariffs-bite-harley-141133614.html

Trump started a trade war.
The EU returned the favor.
Trump warned US business to grin and bare it while following his demands.

HD's business model was adjusted to include building factories in and for the EU and Southeast Asia markets to avoid crippling taxes.
Trump warned HD he'd hurt them with more taxation if they did.

And now the buffoon's position is: It's all their ( the EU ) fault so he vows to 'get back' at the EU for starting the mess he created.


----------



## Wino

Drabdr said:


> Ha! More like sticking my head in a bees nest!
> 
> I hope you've been well.


Well, your head better off than where it's been!!

Doing OK for a curmudgeon, outside of the political crisis we are all mired in up to our ears. Hope you and yours doing well.


----------



## Johnny b

* Trump: White House considering asserting executive privilege to hinder congressional probes *

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news...ivilege-halt-congressional-probes/3557072002/



> President Donald Trump on Tuesday said he did not see the point of cooperating with congressional oversight investigations, did not want current and former aides to testify before Congress and was seriously considering asserting executive privilege to hinder such appearances.


And the first thing a rational person would consider is: what is Trump fearful of the public finding out. Trump supporters, not so much.
Getting closer to the primaries and no doubt the Democrats are going to play this up.

IMO, a bad move on Trump's part, unless he does have something serious to hide.



> The president, while speaking with the Post, said Democrats should be happy with the Mueller report and the level of cooperation he and his administration offered to the special counsel's office.


Really?


----------



## Bastiat

He (Trump) is pushing the democrats into a corner in an attempt to force them to impeach because he knows they can't win in the Senate (at least with what we know so far) and he'll use that to incite his base for the next presidential race.


----------



## Johnny b

Thanks, good point.

He seems to incite his base on just about anything.

edit: and his base seems provocable over just about anything


----------



## Lanctus

I take solace in the fact that, despite how much of a "stable genius" he thinks he is, international history books will remember him for the corrupt blowhard he is.


----------



## Johnny b

* Donald Trump denies he tried to fire Mueller, disputing account from a former senior White House aide *

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news...fire-mueller-disputing-don-mcgahn/3571595002/

Really? 



> President Donald Trump insisted Thursday that he did not try to fire Robert Mueller, disputing a central finding in the special counsel's report that was based on extensive interviews with Trump's own former White House counsel, Don McGahn.


https://www.usatoday.com/story/news...n-mcgahn-mueller-report-testimony/3543259002/


> The subpoena, issued by House Judiciary Committee Chairman Jerrold Nadler, D-N.Y., follows revelations that McGahn had cooperated extensively with special counsel Robert Mueller, offering investigators detailed information about steps by the president to intercede in the investigation that shadowed the first two years of his administration.


----------



## storage_man

So I need to ask some questions. Do you ever call your House Representatives/Senators ? Do all of the you tell them the only solution is to investigate Trump ? Do you all tell them continue to try to IMPEACH Trump ? I have a House Rep who is Republican & a Senator who is a Democrat. I always have tried to communicate with them on legislative issues ie: Social Security Reform, Unwanted/needed proposed illegal gun control laws, I encourage them to balance the Federal budget (Which will be the next big issue), I encourage them to address Illegal immigration/change the laws that encourages illegal immigration. 

In all of the 8 years President Obama was in office not once did I request that my representatives try to IMPEACH him. Do all of you want to see Trump impeached and do you enforce those requests to your Representatives ? 

I just find it hard to believe that the majority of the Democrats would want their members in the House/Senate to only focus on IMPEACHMENT ? There are so many other issues that this country is facing both Financial & cultural that need to be addressed. 

If this is true, our country is mostly lost !


----------



## Johnny b

I'm in Ohio.
I get questionnaires about every other month.

But only from the RNC.
Never seen one from the DNC.

Probably because I'm a member of the Republican Party.

My black card from 2017 even has the statement above my name:

*Presidential Advisory Board * ( and it's in gold font  )


----------



## storage_man

Johnny b said:


> I'm in Ohio.
> I get questionnaires about every other month.
> 
> But only from the RNC.
> Never seen one from the DNC.
> 
> Probably because I'm a member of the Republican Party.
> 
> My black card from 2017 even has the statement above my name:
> 
> *Presidential Advisory Board * ( and it's in gold font  )


HARD TO BELIEVE ?


----------



## Johnny b

storage_man said:


> HARD TO BELIEVE ?


Indeed.

Makes me laugh too. LOL!

When Trump took power in the primaries, I quit donating.

I keep telling myself I'm leaving the Party, but the primaries are coming and someone other than Trump might just need my vote


----------



## storage_man

Johnny b said:


> Indeed.
> 
> Makes me laugh too. LOL!
> 
> When Trump took power in the primaries, I quit donating.
> 
> I keep telling myself I'm leaving the Party, but the primaries are coming and someone other than Trump might just need my vote


SO you never answered my question about call/mailing your reps on items that would benefit the country ?


----------



## valis

Of course it would help. The other problem is deceiving ones self that it would make a difference. Ive done it and have the responses (all from a secretary with the boss's stamped sig). 

Bottom line, 1% of folk control 40% of the income. That is an issue, as in this day, the golden rule indeed means who has the gold, rules. Hence Trump.

It is a rigged system. IMHO of course.

And no, I dont have a fix. At this point, I think we are just along for the ride.


----------



## Johnny b

storage_man said:


> SO you never answered my question about call/mailing your reps on items that would benefit the country ?


Are you insane? 

Not to the RNC under Trump.

To Mike Turner's questionnaires, yes. I've responded. And I have answered in ways of showing disapproval of Trump and Congress's lack of backbone in standing up to him ( that was when Trump had both Senate and House).

It would be of immense benefit to the US and our society to reject Trump's behavior as a malevolent opportunist!
Republican he isn't, even if he 'owns' the Party.

Is that clear enough?


----------



## Wino

Sure I've contacted my congress people. Only one (Rep) is responsive to my wants and we agree upon most points; the two senators (Trump acolytes) are like having discussions with a rock or a black hole. Have never broached impeachment of Trump with any of them. On the other hand, nothing would please me more than seeing Trump perp walked out of the White House, but I'll have to settle for hope that he will be a one term fiasco - THAT would be the best benefit for this nation.


----------



## storage_man

I know that "Never Trumper's" will never change (I know of a few personally), because to them he is not the perfect politican and and not one of them. But dreaming of watching PDJT being "Perp Walked" out of the White House is not going to happen not in your lifetime nor mine. He didn't get elected because he was the perfect politician, he got elected because he WASN'T ! His supporters know that, and they don't really care if he didn't pay any income taxes in 2004 (Or what ever year). Why release any personal info to a corrupt Federal Gov't when you know there will be endless investigations by every members of the congress ? 

Since PDJT is not one of the DC Elite, they don't like him, and want him to begone. He has been exposing the corruption that has been going on for more years than any of us can remember. Way to many business entities over the years have bought and paid for influence over congressional/presidential candidates. For any President that has positive approval ratings, impeachment is a zero end game !


----------



## Johnny b

storage_man said:


> I know that "Never Trumper's" will never change (I know of a few personally), because to them he is not the perfect politican and and not one of them. .........................


There's no such thing as a perfect politician.
My decision not to vote for him came from reading his shady business exploits for some 30 years before running for President. His lack of humanity. And insufferable arrogance,
And all I've seen of him in office is at least 10 times that with public lies obvious as he contradicts himself.

All those 'bad' politicians in office.......they were chosen by the voters in the primaries. 
There have always been choices to make and those 'bad' politicians were the choice of the party voters. Nobody to blame but themselves.

And I didn't vote for Hillary. A lot of shady history in her background.

I made the decision to not vote on the concept of choosing the lesser of two evils when imo neither were appropriate for the office.

I won't vote for Trump in the next election.
And the direction the Democrats are going, won't vote the Presidential ticket again.

But I will complain


----------



## Lanctus

trump has no morality, kindness, compassion, or even the most basic of human decency when dealing with Americans, much less anyone else. If he was a Democrat I would say the exact same. Country over party. He is not someone I would trust to run a PTA meeting, least of all running the country. He leaps before he thinks, lies about even the most mundane and stupid things, incites violence against those he doesn't like, and cares more about how many followers he has on Twitter than being a decent president. 

None of this is even about politics or policies. He doesn't have a leg to stand on when criticizing others, and lacks the backbone and intellect to be a good leader. THIS is why many don't want him.


----------



## Bastiat

All true but he is a stable genius, ask him.


----------



## Johnny b

Or ask God.










* God 'wanted Donald Trump to become president,' Sarah Sanders says *

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news...ted-donald-trump-become-president/2727530002/


----------



## Johnny b

* Donald Trump says God helped him get through 'witch hunt' investigations *

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news...-through-witch-hunt-investigation/3650818002/



> "People say, 'How do you get through that whole stuff?'" Trump said at a Rose Garden event marking the National Day of Prayer. "How do you get through those witch hunts and everything else?"
> 
> "And you know what we do, Mike?" he said, referring to Vice President Mike Pence. "We just do it, right? And we think about God."


More like, please God, don't let 'them' find out about that porn star.
And then he got a mulligan.



> "When I first started campaigning, people were not allowed or in some cases foolishly ashamed to be using on stores 'Merry Christmas,' 'Happy Christmas,'" he said. "Take a look at your stores nowadays - it's all Merry Christmas again."


With all the killings and violence going on, I hadn't noticed


----------



## Wino

I suspect Turnip has never broke open a bible in his life, but if he did, didn't read anything cause he wasn't personally mentioned, just foretold in Revelation 6:8 KJV:



> And I looked, and behold a pale horse: and his name that sat on him was Death, and Hell followed with him. And power was given unto them over the fourth part of the earth, to kill with sword, and with hunger, and with death, and with the beasts of the earth.


----------



## Johnny b

Interesting.

*Good jobs report shows there is still no Trump boom *

https://www.marketwatch.com/story/g...rump-boom-2019-05-03?siteid=yhoof2&yptr=yahoo


----------



## Wino

Johnny b said:


> * Donald Trump says God helped him get through 'witch hunt' investigations *
> 
> https://www.usatoday.com/story/news...-through-witch-hunt-investigation/3650818002/
> 
> More like, please God, don't let 'them' find out about that porn star.
> And then he got a mulligan.
> 
> With all the killings and violence going on, I hadn't noticed


On second thought - Actually, your post should have been in the "Trump - Laugh of the Day" thread.


----------



## Johnny b

Nincompoop economics:

* Farmers get impatient with Trump's trade war: 'This can't go on' *

https://www.cnn.com/2019/05/13/politics/farmers-china-tariffs-trump/index.html

Too much to copy and paste, but this stands out:



> Speaking to reporters Monday, Trump said he would use some of the tariff revenue -- which is paid by US importers -- to help subsidize farmers.
> "They can sell for less and make as much money until it's straightened out. Our farmers will be happy. Our manufacturers will be happy. And our government will be happy because we're taking in tens of billions of dollars," he said.


*"They can sell for less and make as much money until it's straightened out. "*

Entitlements.
Trump's trade war is producing agricultural welfare recipients.
As much as Trumpites hate the Democrats for welfare politics, Trump is actually doing much of the same. Just new and different victims.


----------



## Johnny b

Worth the read:

* Trump Is Considering Deputizing the Military as a Civilian Police Force. That Is Terrifying. *

https://slate.com/news-and-politics/2019/05/trump-insurrection-act-military-troops-police-ice.html

It involves the National Emergencies Act and there is too much of importance to copy and paste.


----------



## steppenwolf

i didnt want obama because he wanted a national security force in 2008

i guess im voting for william weld


----------



## Johnny b

steppenwolf said:


> i didnt want obama because he wanted a national security force in 2008
> 
> i guess im voting for william weld


I read one of his quotes


> I think government has a major role to play in helping us with the pursuit of happiness.


Doesn't sound very Libertarian. A bit like socialism. Big Brother and all.
Do you think, like Weld, it's the Governments job to make us happy?
And if so, what would that look like?

Some people are happy with a despot like Trump.
Some like the hard core socialism of AOC and B Sanders.
Others even enjoy the concept of a democracy.

How would Weld make all those people happy?

More free stuff?


----------



## steppenwolf

no need to ask me questions endlessly -i just said i may vote for weld

american politics is exasperating -im bored

if you get trump again then thank the Democrats


----------



## Johnny b

steppenwolf said:


> no need to ask me questions endlessly -i just said i may vote for weld
> 
> american politics is exasperating -im bored
> 
> if you get trump again then thank the Democrats


If you are going to post you favor Weld, why not ask why? it is a discussion forum after all.

If you're bored with politics, why keep posting about politics? 

Are you trying to get us bored, too? LOL!


----------



## Johnny b

So, how many of the middle class Trumpites actually got richer from Trump's so called tax reform? An how much?

Let's review>

*Your paltry savings from the Trump tax cuts *
!
https://finance.yahoo.com/news/your-paltry-savings-from-the-trump-tax-cuts-184709029.html



> The law slashed the average corporate tax rate companies actually pay by 48%,


Wow, that was certainly significant and nice of Trump.


> while cutting the average rate for individuals by just 4%. The tax cuts had a minimal impact on GDP growth last year, and overall incomes rose just 2% when adjusted for inflation.


What?
Must be lies.

But wait, the stats come from the Congressional Research Service (the CRS).
http://www.loc.gov/crsinfo/about/
Maybe Trump hasn't bought them off yet?

Anyway>



> "On the whole," CRS found, "the growth effects [of the tax cuts] tend to show a relatively small (if any) first-year effect on the economy.


Too much more to copy and paste, but this stood out:


> The overall cost will be about $1.5 trillion in foregone federal revenue through 2027, with annual deficits already soaring toward $1 trillion.


I wonder how much influence Trump's disastrous trade war will affect the purchasing power of those gigantic (  ) tax savings for the middle class?


----------



## Wino

I'm beginning to feel that I now know how the passengers on Titanic felt as their haven slowly sank into the sea and there was nothing they could do to prevent it from happening.


----------



## Wino

> Trump called impeachment "a dirty, filthy, disgusting word."


Seems apropos for a "dirty, filthy, disgusting POTUS".

I can add a few more adjectives - corrupt, amoral, xenophobic, ignorant, 1000 x past Peter Principle, incompetent, hateful - one nasty disgusting human.


----------



## Johnny b

Trump admits Russia helped him win the election:


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1134066371510378501









What a buffoon.


----------



## Johnny b

Interesting article to follow up on the buffoon's twitter comment:

* 8 U.S. Intelligence Groups Blame Russia for Meddling, but Trump Keeps Clouding the Picture *

https://www.nytimes.com/interactive...erence-statements-comments.html?module=inline

Stable genius??


----------



## Bastiat

Johnny b said:


> Stable genius??


Now, according to him, he's a "very stable genius" or a "extremely stable genius". Of course if you have to tell us, you aren't.


----------



## Johnny b

The 'very stable genius' and his trade war with China:

* China Strikes Defiant Stance on Trade Against Trump *
https://www.nytimes.com/2019/06/02/business/china-trump-trade-fedex.html

Too much to copy and paste.
Looks like everyone will be taking large losses.

No wonder Trump has a history of bankruptcies.


----------



## Johnny b

The economy from a point of view.
Trump brags about how much he's done for the economy, but looking back in time presents a different 'picture'.

* Can Trump's trade tussle sink a chance at the longest economic expansion in history? *
https://www.marketwatch.com/story/c...gest-economic-expansion-in-history-2019-06-01



> The longest economic expansion in U.S. history is within striking distance but a period of escalating tariff animus between the U.S. and some of its closest global trade partners is producing headwinds to etching a record span of growth, exceeding 120 months.
> 
> According to the official arbiter of U.S. economic health, the National Bureau of Economic Research, at the end of this month, the current expansion that began in June of 2009 will match the longest on record, March 1991 to March 2001.
> ..................
> Tariffs are a tax on U.S. consumers because they theoretically translate into higher costs on products if they are passed on by importers, but a tariff tussle on multiple fronts also makes it difficult for American multinational corporations to make investment plans amid the threat of a full-blown war and retaliation by international trade partners (as the following tweet by asset manager Nuveen reflects).
> ....................
> "If these economic tariffs are set to continue, this will undoubtedly impact the US economy, and thus by extension the US consumer."
> ...................
> "Whilst the US economy performed well in Q1, we mustn't use this as a barometer for the remainder of the year. The global economy remains weak, and the US does not exist in the bubble. Indeed, the US Treasury market is telling us that the economy will slow.


Personally, I thought recovery was slow under Obama, but it seems obvious Trump's current actions will reverse the trend.


----------



## Johnny b

Interesting article here:

* A war is brewing between Trump and corporate America *

https://finance.yahoo.com/news/a-war-is-brewing-between-trump-and-corporate-america-130242396.html

Too much to copy and paste, but it's worth reading.
This stands out:


> But Trump is making enemies out of allies in the corporate sector, much as he has done with diplomatic allies in Europe, North America and elsewhere. The companies he's feuding with and forcing into global workarounds are the key to the economy he wants to ignite.


----------



## Johnny b

Trump tweet :

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1140252529428717568


> .news is that at the end of 6 years, after America has been made GREAT again and I leave the beautiful White House (do you think the people would demand that I stay longer? KEEP AMERICA GREAT), both of these horrible papers will quickly go out of business & be forever gone!





> do you think the people would demand that I stay longer? KEEP AMERICA GREAT


Starting to look like he's begging for a way to rationalize a President for Life scenario.

The 21st Amendment to the Constitution:
https://www.law.cornell.edu/constitution/amendmentxxii

Sounds like the Trump movement would be chucking out the Constitution they so righteously proclaim, in their feigned respect of it.


----------



## Chawbacon

Johnny b said:


> Sounds like the Trump movement would be chucking out the Constitution they so righteously proclaim, in their feigned respect of it.


That's a mighty bold statement and you sound a little bit paranoid there Johnny. 

No need to worry though. The Constitution is very clear on how long a President may hold office and the specific condition sets where a President may serve longer than 8 years. Plus there are so many supporters of the Constitution (way more than you probably imagine), that your nightmare scenario will never come to pass without a legitimate armed revolt as a result.


----------



## Johnny b

Chawbacon said:


> That's a mighty bold statement and you sound a little bit paranoid there Johnny.
> 
> No need to worry though. The Constitution is very clear on how long a President may hold office and the specific condition sets where a President may serve longer than 8 years. Plus there are so many supporters of the Constitution (way more than you probably imagine), that your nightmare scenario will never come to pass without a legitimate armed revolt as a result.


I wouldn't expect anything less from a Trump apologist


----------



## storage_man

boy lots of HATE in this thread. Quoting the NYTimes is the premier distributor of FAKE NEWS. Its only wasting every bodies download data counts. Unfortunately this country no longer has any unbiased "news print/online print" journalists. I love the quotes "Unidentified sources stated" ? How does one know its true info ? No way to verify it ? I just can't buy that crap. I need proof in black and white. How about iding the unidentified person ? They probably found this story on Twitter just like all of the other fake news organization. Sad that they have turned into this. Time will tell.

Turmp 2020 don't get to upset when it happens.


----------



## valis

Bob Woodward good enough for you? Or is he 'fake news' as well?

Me, personally, I respect the heck out of him.


----------



## valis

I dont hate the guy, as hate is a pretty strong word in my lexicon. I do think he is a misogynistic homophobe with an IQ around room temperature though. I am also no businessman, but I believe that if one has to declare 4 bankruptcies in 18 years of running businesses, maybe look for a different line of work. Which he did.

And again, it is highly representative of the collective US intellect that he was elected.

That said, he was. He is truly a representation of America in the first quarter of this century. We are diving headfirst for the ground at Mach Infinity and it is always 'someone else's problem'.

But again...that is just my opinion.


----------



## Johnny b

storage_man said:


> boy lots of HATE in this thread. Quoting the NYTimes is the premier distributor of FAKE NEWS. Its only wasting every bodies download data counts. Unfortunately this country no longer has any unbiased "news print/online print" journalists. I love the quotes "Unidentified sources stated" ? How does one know its true info ? No way to verify it ? I just can't buy that crap. I need proof in black and white. How about iding the unidentified person ? They probably found this story on Twitter just like all of the other fake news organization. Sad that they have turned into this. Time will tell.
> 
> Turmp 2020 don't get to upset when it happens.


You're just upset with reality.
Most of the news is actual reporting of events, with the exception of op ed pieces which are opinions, some biased, some to the point.

You and the Trump media have long ago worn out the term 'fake news' for what simply isn't liked.

Here's something to worry about: Bernie Sanders leads Trump in Trump's own poll.
That choice would be between a hard core socialist and a malicious opportunist posing as a nationalist ( ie fascist ).


----------



## Johnny b

valis said:


> I dont hate the guy, as hate is a pretty strong word in my lexicon. I do think he is a misogynistic homophobe with an IQ around room temperature though. I am also no businessman, but I believe that if one has to declare 4 bankruptcies in 18 years of running businesses, maybe look for a different line of work. Which he did.
> .....................


Don't underestimate him.
He does have a goal and has been manipulating a sizable portion of public into supporting his views on nationalism.
He is so arrogant, his mouth runs ahead of his brain. As a real estate developer, he's been used to selling BS and in his early days, getting away with it using a mob lawyer.
Roy Cohn, the lawyer that backed Joe McCarthy back in the '50s and had to turn to the mob when the gig was up with McCarthy. And then along came Trump.

IMO, he lies and contradicts himself so much because he thinks the public buys it. And to many, it does sell.
That's a real danger. There is a portion of the public that can not/will not see Trump for what he is.
A malevolent opportunist.


----------



## valis

Oh trust me, I do not underestimate him. He has managed to divide this country and set it back 50 years in a very short amount of time.

I did, however, underestimate the IQ of the general populace.


----------



## Chawbacon

valis said:


> Oh trust me, I do not underestimate him. He has managed to divide this country and set it back 50 years in a very short amount of time.
> 
> I did, however, underestimate the IQ of the general populace.


Howdy Valis,

Glad to see that you and Johnny are willing to not underestimate our sitting President.

But, I am curious on how the President has set the country back 50 years. A very good economy, the lowest unemployment rates in about 50 years, is renegotiating trade deals that resulted in horrible trade imbalances against American interests, reduced taxes for individual and business and filings, massive reductions in regulation that inhibited business growth, etc. So, I just do not see the set back.

If the set back is in reference to social issues... then I can see definitely some merit in those concerns.


----------



## Johnny b

Chawbacon said:


> ....................
> 
> Glad to see that you and Johnny are willing to not underestimate our sitting President.
> 
> But, I am curious on how the President has set the country back 50 years. A very good economy, the lowest unemployment rates in about 50 years, is renegotiating trade deals that resulted in horrible trade imbalances against American interests, reduced taxes for individual and business and filings, massive reductions in regulation that inhibited business growth, etc. So, I just do not see the set back.
> 
> If the set back is in reference to social issues... then I can see definitely some merit in those concerns.


I suggest you read and absorb news accounts.

bastiat turned me on to a very concise view of the Trump administration and how it has undermined the government's ability to manage and reduce it's responsibilities to protect our society. The book, The Fifth Risk by Michael Lewis.

Much has been posted in this forum about it, but it's the details that leaves a chilling realization that the US is not being reconfigured to be 'Great Again' in terms of our society, our economy or our government function . It's a dismantling of it.



> Glad to see that you and Johnny are willing to not underestimate our sitting President.


It's the intelligence of the general populace supporting Trumpism that's been overestimated. Too much credence to emotionalism and political promises. 
Trumpism is essentially an appeal to ignorance.



> If the set back is in reference to social issues... then I can see definitely some merit in those concerns.


And that is exactly what I'm referring to. The blindness to the totality of the destruction occurring. Have you not read the posts concerning our economy? Of Trump's anti- capitalist attitude toward the American farmer with trade wars and meager entitlements handed out to placate their new hardships?
Or, haven't you paid attention to how the trade wars have imposed upon US industries as Trump orders them to 'grin and bear' it?

Ever wonder what the Department of Energy does and why Trump has stripped it's abilities?
Think nuclear policies and foreign politics. Think nuclear regulation within the US.
Think something really scary like the nuclear exposure at Hanford along the Columbia River with little to no oversight because of Trump.

As bad as the collusion looked with Russia, it's the unseen, the unexpected from ignorance and the tendency to ignore long term problems because of short term thinking. In Lewis' book, the reference is to shortcuts. Inefficient shortcuts that merely delay the problem while it intensifies in the 'background', oblivious.

The Democrats have focused on particular illegalities in the Trump administration.
There is so much more.



> But, I am curious on how the President has set the country back 50 years. A very good economy, the lowest unemployment rates in about 50 years, is renegotiating trade deals that resulted in horrible trade imbalances against American interests, reduced taxes for individual and business and filings, massive reductions in regulation that inhibited business growth, etc. So, I just do not see the set back.


Of course you don't.
You have accepted the lies and rejected reality as 'fake news'.


----------



## storage_man

Johnny b said:


> You're just upset with reality.
> Most of the news is actual reporting of events, with the exception of op ed pieces which are opinions, some biased, some to the point.
> 
> You and the Trump media have long ago worn out the term 'fake news' for what simply isn't liked.
> 
> Here's something to worry about: Bernie Sanders leads Trump in Trump's own poll.
> That choice would be between a hard core socialist and a malicious opportunist posing as a nationalist ( ie fascist ).


Now there is the same problem with fake reporting. Polls and what do they really mean. How accurate are they ? A while back there were many polls that said she had it in the bag, leading by X, etc etc. How well did that work out ? 50 years ago, polls were quite accurate. 99% of the house holds had a land line. You could voter rolls and perform a really accurate job at predicting the future. Today not so much. You have no idea who your talking to on a cell phone (there aren't many cell phone number directories) ?

Enjoy.

Great rally 20k inside (Full house) and at least that many were outside. The man sure can get his based fired up. Not like sleepy Joe (who is going to be your nominee - its pr-determined already).


----------



## Johnny b

storage_man said:


> Now there is the same problem with fake reporting. Polls and what do they really mean. How accurate are they ? A while back there were many polls that said she had it in the bag, leading by X, etc etc. How well did that work out ? 50 years ago, polls were quite accurate. 99% of the house holds had a land line. You could voter rolls and perform a really accurate job at predicting the future. Today not so much. You have no idea who your talking to on a cell phone (there aren't many cell phone number directories) ?
> 
> Enjoy.
> 
> Great rally 20k inside (Full house) and at least that many were outside. The man sure can get his based fired up. Not like sleepy Joe (who is going to be your nominee - its pr-determined already).


Amazing 
You even deny the polls Trump commissioned because they didn't favor him LOL!

That is truly sad 

Trumpmania!


----------



## Johnny b

storage_man said:


> .........
> 
> Great rally 20k inside (Full house) and at least that many were outside. The man sure can get his based fired up. Not like sleepy Joe (who is going to be your nominee - its pr-determined already).


Jokes on you 
I'm a registered Republican 

Sleepy Joe can't be my nominee


----------



## valis

I aint registered anything. Maybe anti-idiot, but sadly, as this is America, that is NOT a choice.


----------



## storage_man

Johnny b said:


> Jokes on you
> I'm a registered Republican
> 
> Sleepy Joe can't be my nominee


Ah I forgot, your a "Never Trumper".

I really don't care who commissioned a poll, polling today is totally inaccurate. Show me where a poll that accurately predicted the end result ? However they are bound to get 1 right after 100 misses. I can't count that as success. With today's use of cell phone technology so wide spread, the pollster has no idea where that individual live's, and doesn't represent that area of the country. My neighbor has a Los Angeles exchange on her cell phone (She has a reason), but she has lived in Arizona for 20 years. The pollster would never know it if they call that number. Online polls are even worse due to the use of VPN's again the pollster does not know where that individual is located. Its not what PDJT says, its whats real. I'm just a realist. Actually I should of been from Missouri, the show me state, but I'am not.


----------



## Johnny b

storage_man said:


> Ah I forgot, your a "Never Trumper".
> ......................


Indeed.
I would never vote for Trump.


----------



## Johnny b

storage_man said:


> ................
> 
> I really don't care who commissioned a poll.................


A lot easier to deny the results that way


----------



## Chawbacon

Johnny b said:


> I suggest you read and absorb news accounts.
> 
> bastiat turned me on to a very concise view of the Trump administration and how it has undermined the government's ability to manage and reduce it's responsibilities to protect our society. The book, The Fifth Risk by Michael Lewis.
> 
> Much has been posted in this forum about it, but it's the details that leaves a chilling realization that the US is not being reconfigured to be 'Great Again' in terms of our society, our economy or our government function . It's a dismantling of it.


Oh, I definitely read and absorb news accounts from both the Liberal and Conservative viewpoints. However, the "chilling realization" seems to be a bit of overkill when placed beside the cause and affect meter. Similar statements were made by Republicans about the Obama administration, which I also found to be overkill. These types of generalities insinuating that the SKY-IS-FALLING normally fall well short of reality. Granted, policies enacted by U.S. Presidents do change the business, political, economic, and social landscapes; however, our system of checks and balances and periodic election cycles will typically correct the swing of the pendulum. Then the cycle repeats and the pendulum will eventually swing back in the other direction. This is just how our system has historically worked.

Now, on the specific issue of the Trump economy... I cannot see where you would have big complaints, lowering business and personal taxes has historically resulted in a dramatic increase in taxes collected by the U.S. Treasury (in the long run), while increasing taxes has had exactly the opposite effect (in the long run). More money for the people, more profit for the businesses, more money collected by the Government. Seems like a win-win to me.


Johnny b said:


> It's the intelligence of the general populace supporting Trumpism that's been overestimated. Too much credence to emotionalism and political promises.
> Trumpism is essentially an appeal to ignorance.


Personally, I would refrain from insulting the intelligence of a general populace, which is the same advice I gave to my Republican friends when President Obama was elected. Most people find this type of statement to be a very elitist, or very stupid, viewpoint (based upon the political party supported, and the political party that the speaker supports). Admittedly, there is an underlying concern that is being brought forward; however, most people that are willing to consider alternate viewpoints, will typically stop listening to, or reading, the message being communicated and then completely disregard the entire message upon hearing this type of attitude.


Johnny b said:


> And that is exactly what I'm referring to. The blindness to the totality of the destruction occurring. Have you not read the posts concerning our economy? Of Trump's anti- capitalist attitude toward the American farmer with trade wars and meager entitlements handed out to placate their new hardships?
> Or, haven't you paid attention to how the trade wars have imposed upon US industries as Trump orders them to 'grin and bear' it?


Yes, there are sectors of the country that will, and are, being harmed by the tariffs implemented by President Trump; however, the majority of the affected individuals seem to believe that a short term hardship can be endured, with an end result of a more level playing field when it comes to trade. This is very similar to the Affordable Care Act... Many people liked the idea and many people hated the idea; but, most people took a wait and see approach. If the tariffs fail to work as designed, similar to the Affordable Care Act, we will see a shift in public opinion on the tariffs. Then the pendulum will swing back in the other direction.


Johnny b said:


> Ever wonder what the Department of Energy does and why Trump has stripped it's abilities?
> Think nuclear policies and foreign politics. Think nuclear regulation within the US.
> Think something really scary like the nuclear exposure at Hanford along the Columbia River with little to no oversight because of Trump.


This sounds like more scare tactics. Neither the Democrats, nor the Republicans, want a nuclear disaster to occur; which is why most people place this claim into the realm of conspiracy theory. If there was really a significant risk here, I would expect for there to be a significant outcry from both the Democrats and Republicans. Plus, it is my understanding that President Trump is looking to upgrade the technology supporting our nuclear facilities and arsenal. 


Johnny b said:


> As bad as the collusion looked with Russia, it's the unseen, the unexpected from ignorance and the tendency to ignore long term problems because of short term thinking. In Lewis' book, the reference is to shortcuts. Inefficient shortcuts that merely delay the problem while it intensifies in the 'background', oblivious.


Just a reminder here... Muller and three other government probes found no Russian collusion. Again, the reference to Lewis is worth discussion; however, I would suggest blowing a different dog whistle (other than Russian Collusion), to prevent readers from tuning out on your message.  


Johnny b said:


> The Democrats have focused on particular illegalities in the Trump administration.
> There is so much more.


So far, it appears that the Democrat leadership has focused almost solely on the desire for there to be an impeachable crime (real or imagined). Unfortunately, most of the Democrat leadership is unwilling to give Trump any type of a win unless absolutely necessary. I understand the thought process; but, I believe this will hinder, more than it will help, the Democrat's election outlook. Only the outcome of the next election will tell though.


----------



## Chawbacon

Back on the topic of Trump Term of Office....

*Trump halted military response to Iran because it was 'not proportionate'*
https://nypost.com/2019/06/21/trump...nse-to-iran-because-was-it-not-proportionate/


> President Trump confirmed Friday that the US was "cocked & loaded" to launch a retaliatory strike against Iran shooting down a drone - but canceled it with 10 minutes to spare when told 150 people would die, saying it was not "proportionate" and he was "in no hurry."[Quote/]


----------



## Johnny b

Chawbacon said:


> Oh, I definitely read and absorb news accounts from both the Liberal and Conservative viewpoints. However......( edited for brevity)..............


No, seriously, I meant reading and absorbing reality rather than projecting the same constant apologetic political position.



> Now, on the specific issue of the Trump economy... I cannot see where you would have big complaints, lowering business and personal taxes has historically resulted in a dramatic increase in taxes collected by the U.S. Treasury


Your statement simply does not reflect the reality of today's environment. The Trump administration has decided to not collect enough of a revenue stream to support government activity and it's been forecast to increase deficits to the point this Trump model is no longer economically viable.
As I mentioned more than a year ago, you simply aren't that good with spin and propaganda.

Let me explain further:


> our system of checks and balances and periodic election cycles will typically correct the swing of the pendulum. Then the cycle repeats and the pendulum will eventually swing back in the other direction. This is just how our system has historically worked.


You just made a statement in support of political radicalism by rationalizing the current 
nationalistic/fascist mentality and arguing it's acceptable in a democratic society.



> Personally, I would refrain from insulting the intelligence of a general populace,


Personally, I obviously do not have a problem calling the situation as I see it. The difference is I explain my position. Reality. With examples. Like I do when I call you out .



> Yes, there are sectors of the country that will, and are, being harmed by the tariffs implemented by President Trump; however, the majority of the affected individuals seem to believe that a short term hardship can be endured, with an end result of a more level playing field when it comes to trade.


Better said, there are few sectors of the economy that are benefiting from the current trade war and your assessment does not reflect reality. Additionally, the US consumer is also taking an economic hit as the costs of the trade war are passed onto them, in reality , a tax on foreign consumption.
And yet you bragged earlier about lowering taxes.



> This sounds like more scare tactics. Neither the Democrats, nor the Republicans, want a nuclear disaster to occur; which is why most people place this claim into the realm of conspiracy theory.


You are only avoiding discussing the responsibilities of the current administration.
No one wants a nuclear accident. 
When oversight is removed, 'wants' are irrelevant.

To your simple minded logic (  ) no one wants traffic accidents. Remove traffic lights from intersections, and incidents of traffic accidents will increase. Simple logic.

Same with the handling of nuclear materials and even volatile/hazardous chemicals. 
With out oversight, the likelihood of accidents increases.
It has nothing to do with conspiracies.

Again, you only argue in a manner to rationalize the absurd. ( Trumpism  )



> Just a reminder here... Muller and three other government probes found no Russian collusion.


Again the spin. 
Mueller wasn't tasked to investigate Trump.
He was tasked to investigate Russian involvement in our elections and presented findings that did include improper connections between Trump's campaign machine and Russians.
And a reminder to you, there was an insidious appearance of collusion that will never be forgotten. 
Not finding guilt is not necessarily the same as being innocent.


----------



## Johnny b

Chawbacon said:


> Back on the topic of Trump Term of Office....
> 
> *Trump halted military response to Iran because it was 'not proportionate'*
> https://nypost.com/2019/06/21/trump...nse-to-iran-because-was-it-not-proportionate/


There is much still unknown about the incident.
The problem with saber rattling and backing down is....loss of credibility.
When something serious happens in the future, a macho posture might not be taken seriously.

This incident could have been handled better if more thought was put into Trump's initial responses. But when a buffoon rules, anything can happen


----------



## Johnny b

Chawbacon said:


> ...........................
> 
> So far, it appears that the Democrat leadership has focused almost solely on the desire for there to be an impeachable crime (real or imagined). Unfortunately, most of the Democrat leadership is unwilling to give Trump any type of a win unless absolutely necessary. I understand the thought process; but, I believe this will hinder, more than it will help, the Democrat's election outlook. Only the outcome of the next election will tell though.


Maybe you ought to be focusing more on the leader you and others chose to begin with?

This is our President, the emissary from God, adored by fascists and evangelicals alike. Mr Morality himself. Now in charge of protecting our society:

* E. Jean Carroll: "Trump attacked me in the dressing room of Bergdorf Goodman." *
http://nymag.com/intelligencer/2019/06/president-donald-trump-faces-new-rape-accusation.html

This is so graphic, so ugly, TSG censorship would prevent me from posting the worst of 
the article.



> Carroll says that she disclosed the Trump incident to two friends at the time. One, whom Carroll describes as "a journalist, magazine writer, correspondent on the TV morning shows, author of many books, etc.," told her to go to the police: "'He raped you,' she kept repeating when I called her. 'He raped you. Go to the police! I'll go with you. We'll go together.'" The other, who is also a journalist, was sympathetically cautious: "'Tell no one. Forget it! He has 200 lawyers. He'll bury you.'"
> ...........
> New York has verified that Carroll did disclose the attack to these friends at the time, and has confirmed that Bergdorf Goodman kept no security footage that would prove or disprove Carroll's story.


No doubt Trump bobble heads will deny this.


----------



## Johnny b

Chawbacon said:


> Back on the topic of Trump Term of Office....
> 
> *Trump halted military response to Iran because it was 'not proportionate'*
> https://nypost.com/2019/06/21/trump...nse-to-iran-because-was-it-not-proportionate/


Comment by George Conway:



> "Resign. If you didn't know this until it was almost too late, you're even more of an idiot than people think you are," Conway tweeted.
> 
> "Do the country and the world a favor. Go back to real estate, where the worst you can do is kill banks."


LOL!

hat tip to Fox News (  )
https://www.foxnews.com/politics/george-conway-donald-trump-resign

Other comments by Conway:



> Conway seemed flabbergasted that Trump didn't receive a casualty assessment earlier in the planning process, saying that it was unclear if he did because Trump "lies about everything."
> 
> "Incompetent and misleading--that's our president in a nutshell," he said in another tweet. At one point, Conway seemed to express remorse for initially supporting the president.
> 
> "I didn't realize how incompetent -- and ill -- he was. I couldn't have dreamed he was this bad. He's actually worse than many of his critics said he would be."


Shocking, just shocking I tell you


----------



## Johnny b

Chawbacon said:


> ..........
> 
> Now, on the specific issue of the Trump economy... I cannot see where you would have big complaints, lowering business and personal taxes has historically resulted in a dramatic increase in taxes collected by the U.S. Treasury (in the long run), while increasing taxes has had exactly the opposite effect (in the long run). More money for the people, more profit for the businesses, more money collected by the Government. Seems like a win-win to me.
> ..............................


Win-win?
We've discussed economic issues and it's obvious there is no win-win to the lies of the Trump economy.
You obviously object to Washington Post opinion articles, but this has been brought up before from other sources in the past, so I'll refresh your memory and bring you up to date anyway.

* 
The Trump economy house of cards collapses*
https://www.washingtonpost.com/opin...e9-aadb-74e6b2b46f6a_story.html?noredirect=on

And note, even though an opinion piece, Milbank backs up his claims with linkage to authoritative sources, unlike all the crap and bogus claims I see by Trumpites.


----------



## Chawbacon

Johnny b said:


> No, seriously, I meant reading and absorbing reality rather than projecting the same constant apologetic political position.





Johnny b said:


> As I mentioned more than a year ago, you simply aren't that good with spin and propaganda.





Johnny b said:


> You just made a statement in support of political radicalism by rationalizing the current
> nationalistic/fascist mentality and arguing it's acceptable in a democratic society.





Johnny b said:


> Personally, I obviously do not have a problem calling the situation as I see it. The difference is I explain my position. Reality. With examples. Like I do when I call you out .





Johnny b said:


> To your simple minded logic (  ) no one wants traffic accidents. Remove traffic lights from intersections, and incidents of traffic accidents will increase. Simple logic.





Johnny b said:


> Again, you only argue in a manner to rationalize the absurd. ( Trumpism  )





Johnny b said:


> No doubt Trump bobble heads will deny this.


So... All of the above statements were made since my post in this thread yesterday.
I am just wondering Johnny, do you ever tire of constantly insulting people simply because their opinion of politics differs from yours?
You know, it kind of surprises me that you are not a Trump advocate when you use the same argument tactics that the President does:

Constant insults
Name calling
Dismissive comments
Insinuating stupidity, low IQ, or intelligence
Spamming responses to bury the initial comment
Just seems like you and Trump have a lot more in common than you may realize.


----------



## Chawbacon

Johnny b said:


> Your statement simply does not reflect the reality of today's environment. The Trump administration has decided to not collect enough of a revenue stream to support government activity and it's been forecast to increase deficits to the point this Trump model is no longer economically viable.


I do agree with this statement in part. President Trump is spending our tax dollars at an alarming rate, which is very concerning. As I have previously indicated, the US Government needs to take control of their spending problem.


Johnny b said:


> Better said, there are few sectors of the economy that are benefiting from the current trade war and your assessment does not reflect reality. Additionally, the US consumer is also taking an economic hit as the costs of the trade war are passed onto them, in reality , a tax on foreign consumption.
> And yet you bragged earlier about lowering taxes.


Yes. As history has shown, low taxes are always better for individuals and businesses and leads to a robust economy. The tariffs are a separate issue that impact our economy directly; however, I made clear my observations on a short term hardship being endured with an end goal of long term benefit.


Johnny b said:


> Again the spin.
> Mueller wasn't tasked to investigate Trump.
> He was tasked to investigate Russian involvement in our elections and presented findings that did include improper connections between Trump's campaign machine and Russians.


More specifically, Muller was tasked to investigate to determine if there was any coordination between Donald Trump's campaign team and the Russian government (as an affect on 2016 presidential election). So, I have to politely disagree and say that President Trump was a target. 


Johnny b said:


> And a reminder to you, there was an insidious appearance of collusion that will never be forgotten.
> Not finding guilt is not necessarily the same as being innocent.


Again, I have to respectfully disagree. An appearance of wrongdoing is not proof of wrongdoing. Additionally, since our justice system operates under the assumption of "Innocence until proven guilty," YES, not finding guilt equates to innocence (at least in the eyes of the law). Similar to the O.J. Simpson trial, I personally think that he was guilty; but, he was found innocent and I have to accept that judgement as a responsible citizen. If you do not like that analogy.... think of it as being similar to stop-and-frisk, should an individual be considered as guilty until proven innocent by the stop-and-frisk process?


----------



## Johnny b

Chawbacon said:


> So... All of the above statements were made since my post in this thread yesterday.
> I am just wondering Johnny, do you ever tire of constantly insulting people simply because their opinion of politics differs from yours?
> You know, it kind of surprises me that you are not a Trump advocate when you use the same argument tactics that the President does:
> 
> Constant insults
> Name calling
> Dismissive comments
> Insinuating stupidity, low IQ, or intelligence
> Spamming responses to bury the initial comment
> Just seems like you and Trump have a lot more in common than you may realize.


Whine, whine, whine.
Ever think you are simply an easy target? 
Of course I'm going to leverage it.
Differences are, I back it up.
It's not name calling, Jack.
It's descriptive. 

Do I tire? No.
You just don't like being challenged.
And let's face a reality.
Trying to rationalize Trumpism is one daunting task.
Trying to humanize Trumpism borders on insanity.....imho of course


----------



## Johnny b

Chawbacon said:


> I do agree with this statement in part. President Trump is spending our tax dollars at an alarming rate, which is very concerning. As I have previously indicated, the US Government needs to take control of their spending problem.
> 
> Yes. As history has shown, low taxes are always better for individuals and businesses and leads to a robust economy. The tariffs are a separate issue that impact our economy directly; however, I made clear my observations on a short term hardship being endured with an end goal of long term benefit.
> 
> More specifically, Muller was tasked to investigate to determine if there was any coordination between Donald Trump's campaign team and the Russian government (as an affect on 2016 presidential election). So, I have to politely disagree and say that President Trump was a target.
> 
> Again, I have to respectfully disagree. An appearance of wrongdoing is not proof of wrongdoing. Additionally, since our justice system operates under the assumption of "Innocence until proven guilty," YES, not finding guilt equates to innocence (at least in the eyes of the law). Similar to the O.J. Simpson trial, I personally think that he was guilty; but, he was found innocent and I have to accept that judgement as a responsible citizen. If you do not like that analogy.... think of it as being similar to stop-and-frisk, should an individual be considered as guilty until proven innocent by the stop-and-frisk process?





> President Trump is spending our tax dollars at an alarming rate, which is very concerning.


It appears what I've referred to either went over your head or it's intentional.
No, that's not what I addressed.
Trump intentionally collects less tax than what is needed to efficiently operate our government.
The revenue stream isn't sufficient. The result is the reduction of functions. Functions ( Departments like EPA, DOE, Education ) whose discontinuance was a rallying cry during the last election and a political promise.
And you wonder why I don't respect many of your responses? 
Your spin is childish.



> Yes. As history has shown, low taxes are always better for individuals and businesses and leads to a robust economy. The tariffs are a separate issue that impact our economy directly; however, I made clear my observations on a short term hardship being endured with an end goal of long term benefit.


There is no such observation for what Trump is currently inflicting upon our economy.
Trump has lowered the tax revenue stream to the point government function is impaired and our capitalist economic model at risk in the future because of excessive and uncontrolled debt.
And Tariffs are not a separate issue. They've become a tax on foreign goods that the consumer experiences. Those tariffs are collected by the government, and what manufacturers and resellers don't absorb, is passed on to the US consumer.
There have always been tariffs.
But Trump has been expanding the concept into a trade war and often claiming National Security as the rationale. At a time when that argument has no credibility.



> So, I have to politely disagree and say that President Trump was a target.


You can disagree all you want.
Freedom of speech is still allowed.
But Mueller simply wasn't tasked to investigate Trump.
And impropriety was found between Russians and the Trump camp.
Interesting outline here:
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-40709270

Obviously, Trump learned the value of plausible deniability.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plausible_deniability



> Again, I have to respectfully disagree. An appearance of wrongdoing is not proof of wrongdoing.


As I posted, free speech is still allowed. You can believe what ever your politics dictate.

But I'll remind you that absence of evidence isn't evidence. Basic logic.
Not finding evidence of guilt is not necessarily the same as being innocent.
But there is certainly the appearance of an association in the case of the Russian's support of Trump and it will be there as recorded history for future generations to peruse.



> Similar to the O.J. Simpson trial, I personally think that he was guilty; but, he was found innocent and I have to accept that judgement as a responsible citizen.


Legally, you and everyone else have no choice but to accept the verdict.
But you did judge OJ. You think he was guilty. So do I.

And yet, somehow, you seem to think that analogy requires me to think Trump was innocent?
I think you are very confused.
I can think anything I want. But I present good reasons.

Maybe you ought to review your post
https://forums.techguy.org/threads/the-trump-term-of-office.1183765/page-82#post-9614112
You are a Trump apologist.


----------



## Johnny b




----------



## Johnny b




----------



## storage_man

Johnny b said:


> Ever wonder what the Department of Energy does and why Trump has stripped it's abilities?
> Think nuclear policies and foreign politics. Think nuclear regulation within the US.
> Think something really scary like the nuclear exposure at Hanford along the Columbia River with little to no oversight because of Trump.


Johnny b. Have you or any of your sources of information, ever check to see if any or all standards at our nuclear plants have been rescinded ? Or was the quote above just a scare tactic ?


----------



## storage_man

Boy it would be great if congress would vote on further saving by eliminating all welfare for all of the illegal immigrants that are collecting it today. But that will never happen, why they are their future voters.


----------



## Johnny b

storage_man said:


> Johnny b. Have you or any of your sources of information, ever check to see if any or all standards at our nuclear plants have been rescinded ? Or was the quote above just a scare tactic ?


Not my claim, but nice try.

I did follow up on the Columbia River at Hanford, though.
As I mentioned it, you too could have googled the situation:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hanford_Site

And if you followed up on that, you'd learn that instead of a cleanup of collapsing radioactive storage tunnels, concrete like grout was simply used to fill them.

https://www.tri-cityherald.com/news/local/hanford/article229789389.html

Think it's safe for people working in the immediate area?

https://www.tri-cityherald.com/news/local/hanford/article230705504.html

Once in the water table, it's just a matter of time before migration winds up in public drinking water.

This has been a long term issue, too long ignored and now it's merely a mess being buried, literally, rather than cleaned up.

.................



> ever check to see if any or all standards at our nuclear plants have been rescinded ?


That's not the issue. Over site and response is.
Being invested in utilities, I'm often aware of safety violations and accidents.
You can google that if you are actually interested.

Use the search terms: 
* nuclear power plant safety violations *
or this list of accidents:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nucle...United_States#List_of_accidents_and_incidents

You are simply arguing to ignore regulation.
With out responsible oversite and regulation, more of the same will occur as has happened at Hanford. Simplistic coverups. Out of sight, out of mind. Until the dying starts.


----------



## Johnny b

storage_man said:


> Boy it would be great if congress would vote on further saving by eliminating all welfare for all of the illegal immigrants that are collecting it today. But that will never happen, why they are their future voters.


That's a fair complaint.

But I've not seen any monetary statistics in the past on how much public aid is given to illegal immigrants.

So I did a search:

https://immigrationforum.org/article/fact-sheet-immigrants-and-public-benefits/


> Are undocumented immigrants eligible for federal public benefit programs?
> 
> Generally no. Undocumented immigrants, including DACA holders, are ineligible to receive most federal public benefits, including means-tested benefits such as Supplemental Nutrition Assistance Program (SNAP, sometimes referred to as food stamps), regular Medicaid, Supplemental Security Income (SSI), and Temporary Assistance for Needy Families (TANF). Undocumented immigrants are ineligible for health care subsidies under the Affordable Care Act (ACA) and are prohibited from purchasing unsubsidized health coverage on ACA exchanges.
> 
> Undocumented immigrants may be eligible for a handful of benefits that are deemed necessary to protect life or guarantee safety in dire situations, such as emergency Medicaid, access to treatment in hospital emergency rooms, or access to healthcare and nutrition programs under the Special Supplemental Nutrition Program for Women, Infants, and Children (WIC).


hmmmm?
So, there doesn't seem t be a lot of coverage they are eligible for under the Federal system.



> Are immigrants eligible for state benefit programs?
> 
> In some states, yes. Twenty-six states make immigrants eligible for state-funded benefit programs.


This link has a graphical representation of state funded benefit programs and a lot of further information.
https://www.pewtrusts.org/en/resear...-public-benefits-for-immigrants-in-the-states

Looks like your argument is mostly a state issue if you live in one of those 26 states.

This was interesting:
https://immigrationforum.org/article/fact-sheet-immigrants-and-public-benefits/


> According to Institute on Taxation and Economic Policy, undocumented immigrants contribute an estimated $11.74 billion to state and local economies each year. However, undocumented immigrants are not eligible for many of the federal or state benefits that their tax dollars help fund.
> 
> Additionally, a few states have completed studies demonstrating that immigrants pay more in taxes than they receive in government services and benefits. A study in Arizona found that the state's immigrants generate $2.4 billion in tax revenue per year, which more than offsets the $1.4 billion in their use of benefit programs. Another study in Florida estimated that, on a per capita basis, immigrants in the state pay nearly $1,500 more in taxes per capita than they receive in public benefits.


Amazing how much hate has been generated by the Trump administration.


----------



## Chawbacon

Johnny b said:


> Whine, whine, whine.
> Ever think you are simply an easy target?
> Of course I'm going to leverage it.
> Differences are, I back it up.
> It's not name calling, Jack.
> It's descriptive.
> 
> Do I tire? No.
> You just don't like being challenged.
> And let's face a reality.
> Trying to rationalize Trumpism is one daunting task.
> Trying to humanize Trumpism borders on insanity.....imho of course


Actually Johnny, I was not whining. This was a light hearted; but, serious attempt to provide you with constructive criticism concerning your responses. Unfortunately, my intent seems to have missed it's mark. So I shall be more direct and point out the same systematic behavior of insults that have occurred since my last post.


Johnny b said:


> Trying to humanize Trumpism borders on insanity.....imho of course





Johnny b said:


> It appears what I've referred to either went over your head or it's intentional.





Johnny b said:


> And you wonder why I don't respect many of your responses?
> Your spin is childish.





Johnny b said:


> I think you are very confused.





Johnny b said:


> You are a Trump apologist.


You often post very relevant information that warrants consideration; however, these types of responses are simply not conducive to civil conversations. I have no problem with responses that poke a little fun at each other; however, the above responses are simply becoming abusive (especially when considering the body of responses that I have seen from you since becoming a member here). I am not, and will not, submit a formal complaint concerning your posts; because, I do not want to stifle discussions about political discussions. Please understand though, that there may be members in the future that do not have my constraint. Plus, while you and I have differing political views, I truly do not want to see you chastised, or banned, for pushing the envelope too far. Simply put, I believe that you are better than this.


----------



## Chawbacon

Johnny b said:


> Trump intentionally collects less tax than what is needed to efficiently operate our government.
> The revenue stream isn't sufficient. The result is the reduction of functions. Functions ( Departments like EPA, DOE, Education ) whose discontinuance was a rallying cry during the last election and a political promise.


In all honesty this is a fair complaint; however, we have to apply this standard to every President since Andrew Jackson. Yes some presidents have presided over a balanced budget (taking in more revenue than what was spent during a fiscal year); but both political parties have allowed our debt and deficit to soar to unprecedented heights. If a proven fiscal conservative ran against President Trump in a primary or general election, I would support that candidate in a heart beat.


Johnny b said:


> There is no such observation for what Trump is currently inflicting upon our economy.
> Trump has lowered the tax revenue stream to the point government function is impaired and our capitalist economic model at risk in the future because of excessive and uncontrolled debt.
> And Tariffs are not a separate issue. They've become a tax on foreign goods that the consumer experiences. Those tariffs are collected by the government, and what manufacturers and resellers don't absorb, is passed on to the US consumer.
> There have always been tariffs.
> But Trump has been expanding the concept into a trade war and often claiming National Security as the rationale.


Well, we will have to disagree on whether a tariff is a tax, although I agree that a costs from tariffs are passed onto the end consumer, so it can be considered as a hidden tax; however, the bigger question is if the tariffs will work in the favor of the U.S. in the long run. We shall have to wait and see.


Johnny b said:


> You can disagree all you want.
> Freedom of speech is still allowed.





Johnny b said:


> As I posted, free speech is still allowed. You can believe what ever your politics dictate.


I am not sure how disagreeing, or respectfully disagreeing, on my part is an attempt to restrict free speech; but, OK, you are entitled to your opinion. 


Johnny b said:


> But Mueller simply wasn't tasked to investigate Trump.
> And impropriety was found between Russians and the Trump camp.


I would like to refer you to Rod Rosenstein's letter concerning the appointment of special the council in question.
https://www.nytimes.com/interactive...nt-Robert-Mueller-Special-Counsel-Russia.html

Specifically, paragraph (B), sub paragraph (i). 
*"any links and/or coordination between the Russian government and individuals associated with the campaign of President Donald Trump."*


Johnny b said:


> But I'll remind you that absence of evidence isn't evidence. Basic logic.
> Not finding evidence of guilt is not necessarily the same as being innocent.
> But there is certainly the appearance of an association in the case of the Russian's support of Trump and it will be there as recorded history for future generations to peruse.


You are correct that absence of evidence isn't evidence, and to take the next logical step, the absence of evidence means a big fat prosecution loss in a court of law.


----------



## Chawbacon

Johnny b said:


> I did follow up on the Columbia River at Hanford, though.
> As I mentioned it, you too could have googled the situation:
> 
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hanford_Site
> 
> And if you followed up on that, you'd learn that instead of a cleanup of collapsing radioactive storage tunnels, concrete like grout was simply used to fill them.
> 
> https://www.tri-cityherald.com/news/local/hanford/article229789389.html
> 
> Think it's safe for people working in the immediate area?
> 
> https://www.tri-cityherald.com/news/local/hanford/article230705504.html
> 
> Once in the water table, it's just a matter of time before migration winds up in public drinking water.
> 
> This has been a long term issue, too long ignored and now it's merely a mess being buried, literally, rather than cleaned up.


I am a bit confused here. How is this President Trump's fault?

The facility was built during World War II and dismantling/cleanup of the facility (which was described as very complex) began shortly after the end of the Cold War. The grout situation referenced above was used as an emergency fill to prevent further ground contamination after the first tunnel (filled with contaminated equipment) collapsed from the top, and was similarly used when a second similar tunnel's probability of collapse was upgraded to imminent. Additionally, the intent is to revisit cleanup of the tunnels. Admittedly, the future date for review was not specified, which is very concerning.

Seems to me that the emergency steps taken may have been proper; however, I am nowhere near an expert in this area. I would like to know if there is a planned date to revisit the cleanup of the tunnels. Seems to me that this should be an important priority.


----------



## Johnny b

Chawbacon said:


> I am a bit confused here. How is this President Trump's fault?
> 
> The facility was built during World War II and dismantling/cleanup of the facility (which was described as very complex) began shortly after the end of the Cold War. The grout situation referenced above was used as an emergency fill to prevent further ground contamination after the first tunnel (filled with contaminated equipment) collapsed from the top, and was similarly used when a second similar tunnel's probability of collapse was upgraded to imminent. Additionally, the intent is to revisit cleanup of the tunnels. Admittedly, the future date for review was not specified, which is very concerning.
> 
> Seems to me that the emergency steps taken may have been proper; however, I am nowhere near an expert in this area. I would like to know if there is a planned date to revisit the cleanup of the tunnels. Seems to me that this should be an important priority.


I agree you are confused.

Blame doesn't go to trump for the Hanford site to exist.
But the way current conditions are addressed, does.
Trump does not rely on educated professionals with experience. 
It's his trademark. He's a stable genius, just ask him.
Many of the Gov Department heads are now chosen through fealty rather than intelligence and experience.



> Additionally, the intent is to revisit cleanup of the tunnels.


And that Jack, is 'passing the buck' and ignoring a proper solution out of convenience.
And ignoring it is exactly the problem.
Hanford is just one extreme example.
Global warming another.
Economics another.
World politics another.

Trump does excel in incompetence.



> Seems to me that the emergency steps taken may have been proper; however, I am nowhere near an expert in this area. I would like to know if there is a planned date to revisit the cleanup of the tunnels. Seems to me that this should be an important priority.


It should.
But going to the effort of concreting in tunnels, likely means not in the foreseeable future.


----------



## Johnny b

Chawbacon said:


> Actually Johnny, I was not whining. This was a light hearted; but, serious attempt to provide you with constructive criticism concerning your responses. Unfortunately, my intent seems to have missed it's mark. So I shall be more direct and point out the same systematic behavior of insults that have occurred since my last post.
> 
> You often post very relevant information that warrants consideration; however, these types of responses are simply not conducive to civil conversations. I have no problem with responses that poke a little fun at each other; however, the above responses are simply becoming abusive (especially when considering the body of responses that I have seen from you since becoming a member here). I am not, and will not, submit a formal complaint concerning your posts; because, I do not want to stifle discussions about political discussions. Please understand though, that there may be members in the future that do not have my constraint. Plus, while you and I have differing political views, I truly do not want to see you chastised, or banned, for pushing the envelope too far. Simply put, I believe that you are better than this.


You are still whining 

As far as banning, Tony seemed to have tried that angle.
And he 'walked away' rather unsettled.

Jack, I enjoy the repartee.
I'm just better at it than you appear to be 

Jack. Your issue is with name-calling.

https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/name-calling


> Definition of name-calling
> 
> : the use of offensive names especially to win an argument or to induce rejection or condemnation (as of a person or project) without objective consideration of the facts


Read that last passage again:
* without objective consideration of the facts *

You entered Controversial Topics claiming an open mind. Several times restating that position.
Jack (  ) it's rather obvious you have your biases as do I and everyone else here (and I've pointed out the errors of your way).
You happen to be a Trump apologist and I'm not


----------



## Johnny b

Chawbacon said:


> ...................
> If a proven fiscal conservative ran against President Trump in a primary or general election, I would support that candidate in a heart beat.
> 
> Well, we will have to disagree on whether a tariff is a tax, although I agree that a costs from tariffs are passed onto the end consumer, so it can be considered as a hidden tax; however, the bigger question is if the tariffs will work in the favor of the U.S. in the long run. We shall have to wait and see.
> 
> I am not sure how disagreeing, or respectfully disagreeing, on my part is an attempt to restrict free speech; but, OK, you are entitled to your opinion.
> 
> I would like to refer you to Rod Rosenstein's letter concerning the appointment of special the council in question.
> https://www.nytimes.com/interactive...nt-Robert-Mueller-Special-Counsel-Russia.html
> 
> Specifically, paragraph (B), sub paragraph (i).
> *"any links and/or coordination between the Russian government and individuals associated with the campaign of President Donald Trump."*
> 
> You are correct that absence of evidence isn't evidence, and to take the next logical step, the absence of evidence means a big fat prosecution loss in a court of law.





> Well, we will have to disagree on whether a tariff is a tax, although I agree that a costs from tariffs are passed onto the end consumer, so it can be considered as a hidden tax; however, the bigger question is if the tariffs will work in the favor of the U.S. in the long run. We shall have to wait and see.


So?
A hidden tax somehow isn't really a tax?

Shades of '1984' eh?

I thought the 'wait and see' mentality was a Liberal trait.
Must be Trump channeling his past when he associated with those crazy liberals (  )
Change for the sake of change on a whim and hope that everything 'works out'.

^^^^^
Kinda contradicts yourself, don't you think?

....................



> "any links and/or coordination *between the Russian government and individuals associated with the campaign* of President Donald Trump."


I read it.
Looks valid.
Where is the order to directly investigate Trump?
So?



> You are correct that absence of evidence isn't evidence, and to take the next logical step, the absence of evidence means a big fat prosecution loss in a court of law.


Indeed.
And as you noted in example of the OJ trial, in your opinion, OJ was guilty, and justice was denied.
If justice is denied, the concept of 'innocence' becomes a fallacy.
And that is where obstruction of justice raised it's ugly head for all to see in regards to Trump and his Russian pals


----------



## Johnny b

Trump is back to blaming Obama for Trump's abuse of immigrants:

* Trump defends conditions for detained migrant kids, blames Obama for family separations; fact checkers call foul *

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news...s-obama-started-family-separation/1540733001/


----------



## Johnny b

From CNN, the news site Trumpites love to hate 

* Why Trump can't fill the gaping holes in his government *
https://www.cnn.com/2019/06/23/politics/trump-cabinet-vacancies-apprentice/index.html



> You're fired! You're hired! That's it.
> It was so seamless on The Apprentice.
> But that was TV. In the real world, as President, things are are much more difficult for Donald Trump, which is how the US comes to be facing the possibility of military action against Iran without a confirmed Secretary of Defense.
> It's also how the US is facing what Trump calls a national emergency at the border with Mexico without a permanent Secretary of Homeland Security.
> ..................
> Recall that early in Trump's presidency he surrounded himself with former generals -- James Mattis at the Pentagon, Michael Flynn and then H.R. McMaster as National Security Adviser, and John Kelly first as DHS Secretary and then as White House chief of staff.
> All of them are gone now.
> ..................
> Nearly 40% of Senate-confirmable positions are not permanently filled, according to the Partnership for Public Service, a nonprofit that tracks these things. More than 50% of such positions are not filled at the Justice Department. Of the 24 top-level roles listed at the DHS website, 12 are either acting or vacant.
> 
> ( and more, so much more)


Shocking.
But Trump is a very stable genius......just ask him


----------



## storage_man

You are going after the wrong President again in your attacks about Hanford pollution. It was started by FDR, it was then wrapped up by the Carter administration in 1977. It looks like it went down hill from there on. Yes lets just blame Trump for this problem. 

I beginning to believe, you really are not a "Never Trumpter". With all of your links over (Just the last 3 days - That was enough for me) quoting all of the FAKE NEWS generators (CNN, NYTIMES, WAPO, TODAY) maybe I should list web sites that don't generate FAKE NEWS. It would be much easier 

But seriously. I believe you have TDS. You should get an appointment with your current doctor (If you have one ?). For the sake of the children.


----------



## Johnny b

storage_man said:


> You are going after the wrong President again in your attacks about Hanford pollution. It was started by FDR, it was then wrapped up by the Carter administration in 1977. It looks like it went down hill from there on. Yes lets just blame Trump for this problem.
> 
> I beginning to believe, you really are not a "Never Trumpter". With all of your links over (Just the last 3 days - That was enough for me) quoting all of the FAKE NEWS generators (CNN, NYTIMES, WAPO, TODAY) maybe I should list web sites that don't generate FAKE NEWS. It would be much easier
> 
> But seriously. I believe you have TDS. You should get an appointment with your current doctor (If you have one ?). For the sake of the children.


Seriously, you must have issues with reading comprehension.

I posted to Chewbacon:

https://forums.techguy.org/threads/the-trump-term-of-office.1183765/page-83#post-9614378

excerpt:


> Blame doesn't go to trump for the Hanford site to exist.
> But the way current conditions are addressed, does.


Yours is a typical example of intellectual dishonesty that too frequently comes in response from Trump supporters.
And I use the term 'intellectual' loosely.


----------



## Johnny b

storage_man said:


> .................
> 
> I beginning to believe, you really are not a "Never Trumpter". With all of your links over (Just the last 3 days - That was enough for me) quoting all of the FAKE NEWS generators (CNN, NYTIMES, WAPO, TODAY) maybe I should list web sites that don't generate FAKE NEWS. It would be much easier
> 
> But seriously. I believe you have TDS. You should get an appointment with your current doctor (If you have one ?). For the sake of the children.


Thank you for that 

It really defines who and what you are


----------



## Wino

I'm in need of a good laugh - please post your links to your web sites that never post fake news - I suspect WND, Breitbart, Info Wars, Fox along with other trash news sites.


----------



## Johnny b

hmmmmm! Info Wars


----------



## Johnny b

Wino said:


> I'm in need of a good laugh - please post your links to your web sites that never post fake news - I suspect WND, Breitbart, Info Wars, Fox along with other trash news sites.


It is amazing how gullible so many of these Trumpites are.


----------



## Johnny b

This is interesting:

* 'She's not my type': Trump again denies E. Jean Carroll's sexual misconduct allegation *

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news...p-e-jean-carroll-shes-not-my-type/1554116001/

Trump is using the logic that he's only attracted to prostitutes and loose women as a rationale that he didn't rape E. Jean Carroll.
How about those other known 15 women he accosted?

I wonder what his wife thinks of that?
I wonder what his ex-wives think of that?
Will evangelicals give him another mulligan?
As an emissary of God, shouldn't he be delivering a different message?

I have an inquiring mind and I want to know


----------



## Johnny b

Looks like the Iranian's aren't taking Trump's sanctions seriously:

* Iran's President Hassan Rouhani calls new US sanctions 'outrageous and idiotic' *

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/world/2019/06/25/iran-calls-sanctions-outrageous/1556050001/



> Rouhani noted that Western banking restrictions are unlikely to affect Ayatollah Seyed Ali Khamenei, saying the 80-year-old leader of the Islamic Revolution isn't getting rich off of Western bank accounts. Imposing sanctions on Foreign Minister Mohammad Javad Zarif doesn't equate with Trump's stated willingness to negotiate without preconditions, Rouhani added.
> 
> "You sanction the foreign minister simultaneously with a request for talks" he would lead, Rouhani said. "The White House is afflicted by mental retardation and does not know what to do."


This is a serious problem. Trump is a buffoon, not taken seriously and mocked. This is when really bad decisions are apt to occur under the duress of emotionalism.


----------



## storage_man

Wino said:


> I'm in need of a good laugh - please post your links to your web sites that never post fake news - I suspect WND, Breitbart, Info Wars, Fox along with other trash news sites.


No WND for me along with Info Wars. Fox is a bit more reliable than the NYTimes. But just about anybody can be more reliable than the NYTimes. LOL (Even my totally local dis functional daily newspaper) But that would be a stretch.


----------



## storage_man

Johnny b said:


> Looks like the Iranian's aren't taking Trump's sanctions seriously:
> 
> * Iran's President Hassan Rouhani calls new US sanctions 'outrageous and idiotic' *
> 
> https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/world/2019/06/25/iran-calls-sanctions-outrageous/1556050001/
> 
> This is a serious problem. Trump is a buffoon, not taken seriously and mocked. This is when really bad decisions are apt to occur under the duress of emotionalism.


Yep - it maybe idioctic, but as long as in the end they say "UNCLE", works for me. But I still blame FDR + Truman + IKE + Kennedy + every following PREZ, for supporting a puppet gov over there since WWII. They are all complicit !

Do you guys ever wonder what PDJT sent in that letter to KIM ? Its been really quiet here about that.


----------



## Johnny b

Back to reality:

* Trump's fatal flaw *
https://finance.yahoo.com/news/trumps-fatal-flaw-200739213.html



> The law of unintended consequences is a well-understood phenomenon
> .................
> President Trump is remarkably cavalier about consequences
> .................
> Delivery giant FedEx has sued the government-the U.S. government, not the Chinese one-saying the Huawei policy shift imposes a burden no shipper can comply with.
> ......................
> The Huawei ban is hurting other American companies that supply software or components to Huawei, including Google, Intel, Qualcomm and Micron, and are losing business.
> .......................
> Trump's policies could make Chinese tech firms more fearsome in the future, not less.
> .....................
> Trump didn't campaign for president by promising to put American farmers out of business, yet his tariffs are pounding farmers, too.
> .......................
> Trump didn't intend for these consequences to occur, but an army of economists and trade experts predicted they would. He didn't care.
> ........................
> ........................
> Soaring budget deficits.
> ..........................
> Loss of faith in the Federal Reserve.
> ..........................
> Faster global warming. Trump isn't just inert on climate change; he's abetting it, by promoting policies that lead to more fossil fuel use, not less.
> ................................
> A showdown with Iran. ..................
> ..........................
> Experts predicted many if not all of the unintended consequences Trump has brought to pass. Trump ignored those experts, probably because he doesn't fear the consequences or he thinks they won't affect him.
> .......................
> Trump famously postulated that he could shoot somebody on Fifth Avenue in New York City and his supporters wouldn't care. But they would care if he shot them..............


----------



## Johnny b

Or maybe they were intended.


----------



## storage_man

My analysis of that is "IF you deal with the Devil, you may receive JUST Rewards". Yes an poor Google will no longer supply OS to this banned CO. 

Next the Federal Reserve is run by a bunch of Rich M.F.ers. They have lost their original purpose to maintain a safe monetary policy. Instead the invented and implemented "Quantitative Easing", which only propped up wall street and crapped on the working class. Even though I personally invest in the markets, I'm fully aware of the pit falls. Every time some Newbee asks me about investing. I tell them its no different than putting your money on the PASS Line in a Vegas Crap table. One has to be aware ! So the Federal Reserve invested billions and received $.10 on a dollar when they sold it. Then just printed more paper to make up the loss. Tell me how that works ?


----------



## Johnny b

> .....crapped on the working class.


Careful, you're sounding a bit like a whinny liberal 

As you point out, the general public takes 'the hit'. So does industry and commerce.

So, why do you support a businessman that has abused the bankruptcy courts as a mechanism to protect his own assets but puts a whole nation at risk as he legislates like a loon, from a Twitter account?


----------



## Johnny b

Interesting article on the BS of Donald Trump:

* What Trump Did in Osaka Was Worse Than Lying *

https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2019/07/on-trumps-bull****/593062/
(edit: the TSG censor astericked the above url, so it does not work
google: * https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2019/07/on-trumps * )

Too much to copy and paste (  ) but this stands out:



> Trump has fueled a cottage industry of fact-checkers who point out his demonstrable lies, but reporters haven't figured out how to respond when Trump is simply bull****ting.......
> .....
> philosopher Harry Frankfurt:
> 
> 
> 
> Someone who lies and someone who tells the truth are playing on opposite sides, so to speak, in the same game. Each responds to the facts as he understands them, although the response of the one is guided by the authority of the truth, while the response of the other defies that authority and refuses to meet its demands. The BSer (edited) ignores these demands altogether. He does not reject the authority of the truth, as the liar does, and oppose himself to it. He pays no attention to it at all. By virtue of this, BS (edited) is a greater enemy of the truth than lies are.
Click to expand...

ie the malevolent opportunist that tells enough people what they want to hear in order to sit in power over them.


----------



## Johnny b

storage_man said:


> .......................
> 
> Do you guys ever wonder what PDJT sent in that letter to KIM ? Its been really quiet here about that.


 Obama was accused of groveling before terrorists and yet many of the same critics welcome Trump embracing dictators and terrorist nations as besties?

Ever wonder why?

The letter to Kim? 
He just wants to be friends? ....
Probably another 'Love' letter


----------



## Johnny b

storage_man said:


> Yep - it maybe idioctic, but as long as in the end they say "UNCLE", works for me. ............


Kinda like the rhetoric the Soviets were pushing when in power: The End justifies the Means.

A lot of right wing extremists seem to be pushing that logic since the USSR collapsed.

Go figure


----------



## storage_man

Johnny b said:


> Kinda like the rhetoric the Soviets were pushing when in power: The End justifies the Means.
> 
> A lot of right wing extremists seem to be pushing that logic since the USSR collapsed.
> 
> Go figure


I'm not a extremist, but as I stated, if it works use it !

As far as Trump lying, OK, name a political office holder that doesn't lie ?

As far as bankruptcy's, sometimes that is necessary. Since I did it once, I understand. since a business makes wrong term does not mean you need to surrender. If you personally never owned a business, you would never know what the feeling is like. You hate to see the company you started and worked 80hrs a week to get it going and then, either you or a subordinate makes a huge mistake, there is no place to go. You either surrender your wealth to the partners that invested with you, who have turned into wolf's, or you try to escape and then later pay them back after making something successful. Simple survival. Until you are there, you can't understand it.

As far as dictators, I know that, but he/Trump is just trying to fix something that has been a problem to the world for 60-70 years. Will he be successful, who knows. I give him credit for trying, better than the rest of the CEO's charged with protecting the world. My self, I think we should not be involved in fixing the world, but that is his decision.

As far as the link you posted in Post #1251, I only get a 404 error, link not found. (Maybe that is why Mgmt got rid of your first link). Your snip you posted doesn't tell me anything other than the author hates PDJT and will write what ever he wants. Sad !

Well so much for Tuesday. Got to go raise the stars and stripes. Freedom celebration comes Thursday ! Have a good week + end.


----------



## Johnny b

storage_man said:


> I'm not a extremist, but as I stated, if it works use it !
> ....................


Thank you comrade


----------



## Johnny b

storage_man said:


> .....................
> 
> As far as Trump lying, OK, name a political office holder that doesn't lie ?
> 
> As far as bankruptcy's, sometimes that is necessary. Since I did it once, I understand. since a business makes wrong term does not mean you need to surrender. If you personally never owned a business, you would never know what the feeling is like. You hate to see the company you started and worked 80hrs a week to get it going and then, either you or a subordinate makes a huge mistake, there is no place to go. You either surrender your wealth to the partners that invested with you, who have turned into wolf's, or you try to escape and then later pay them back after making something successful. Simple survival. Until you are there, you can't understand it.
> 
> As far as dictators, I know that, but he/Trump is just trying to fix something that has been a problem to the world for 60-70 years. Will he be successful, who knows. I give him credit for trying, better than the rest of the CEO's charged with protecting the world. My self, I think we should not be involved in fixing the world, but that is his decision.
> 
> As far as the link you posted in Post #1251, I only get a 404 error, link not found. (Maybe that is why Mgmt got rid of your first link). Your snip you posted doesn't tell me anything other than the author hates PDJT and will write what ever he wants. Sad !
> 
> Well so much for Tuesday. Got to go raise the stars and stripes. Freedom celebration comes Thursday ! Have a good week + end.





> As far as Trump lying, OK, name a political office holder that doesn't lie ?



Trump sets records LOL!
And the article was actually focusing on Trump's BS.



> As far as bankruptcy's, sometimes that is necessary. Since I did it once.....


How many hundreds of millions did you stick it to your creditors/banks for?
And you compare your situation to Trump? Seriously?



> If you personally never owned a business, you would never know what the feeling is like.


Many people never do.
Trump never filed for personal bankruptcy.
His risky corporate activities did. His personal wealth was never in jeopardy. Only his creditors.



> Until you are there, you can't understand it.


But you are no 'Donald Trump' nor operate on any scale near.
So you wouldn't understand either.
Trump's bankruptcies were failures of massive proportions, repeatedly.



> As far as the link you posted in Post #1251, I only get a 404 error, link not found. (Maybe that is why Mgmt got rid of your first link).


Well duh!
Why do you think I posted the edit? So the URL could be found  .
BTW, Management didn't edit the URL, the TSG site software did, so I gave a hint to the intelligent peeps that might want to read it, how they could find it.
Reading comprehension ( sigh! )

I already knew you wouldn't read it. 
Too much like reality


----------



## Bastiat

Bankruptcy is for the purpose helping those who have gotten in over their head and that would included businesses. Chapter 11 giving businesses a little breathing space to hopefully revive the business. Trump on the other hand used bankruptcy as a business strategy to screw over not only his creditors but his co-business owners and investors as well as to increase his wealth. Legal? Generally yes. Ethical or moral? No.


----------



## Johnny b

storage_man said:


> .......................
> 
> Do you guys ever wonder what PDJT sent in that letter to KIM ? Its been really quiet here about that.


Looks like that love-fest has hit a stumbling block, again!

* US 'hell-bent' on hostility despite talks, North Korea says *

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-48863401



> North Korea has accused the US of being "hell-bent on hostile acts", despite a recent agreement between the two countries to resume nuclear talks.
> ...............
> "[It] speaks to the reality that the United States is practically more and more hell-bent [on] hostile acts against the DPRK [North Korea]."
> 
> "All UN member states will have to keep vigilance against deliberate attempts by the United States to undermine the peaceful atmosphere that has been created on the Korean Peninsula," it said.





> Mr Trump - who once referred to Mr Kim as "little rocket man" - called their friendship "particularly great" and said it was a "great day for the world".


Really? 
I sense a pattern 
Unrequited love lol!
IMO, looking like a fool


----------



## storage_man

Well if that is the way they (NK UN Reps) feel, maybe the should figure out how to behave and if they are pissed, then they should inform their supreme leader. The UN has a whole bunch of sanctions that are effecting them. Looks like they are not following the rules. To bad !

But maybe they are getting close to say UNCLE or they want to start a war


----------



## Johnny b

storage_man said:


> ..................
> 
> But maybe they are.......................


But maybe? LOL!

Is that like a hope?

Interesting concept, foreign policy built on a hope, maybe. Why not lock it in with a hope and a prayer?


----------



## valis

storage_man said:


> Well if that is the way they (NK UN Reps) feel, maybe the should figure out how to behave and if they are pissed, then they should inform their supreme leader. The UN has a whole bunch of sanctions that are effecting them. Looks like they are not following the rules. To bad !
> 
> But maybe they are getting close to say UNCLE or they want to start a war


Alternatively, maybe we could focus on local issues, as opposed to fighting other countries fights for them.

Last I checked our infrasteucture is collapsing, and our education system sucks. Healthcare is ludicrously expensive.

Just my view, though.

All that said, happy and safe 4th everyone.


----------



## Johnny b

Good post, Tim.

July 4 is supposed to be about celebrating our success in establishing a free and democratic society.
About honoring the men and women that continue to protect those freedoms.

Mirroring the celebrations of dictatorships doesn't seem very patriotic to me.


----------



## Wino

I kept hoping that Mother Nature would end this self-adulation project to be cancelled or greatly curtailed.


----------



## valis

I seem to recall some dude named Teddy who said patriotism is about loving the country, not its leader. 

I agree Johnny; thanks to those who fought and died for these liberties. 

Trump trumpeting (lol) the military presence makes me laugh.


----------



## Johnny b

Interesting opinion article over at The New York Times:

* Why Trump Likes Tanks *

https://www.nytimes.com/2019/07/04/opinion/trump-tanks.html


----------



## Wino

I find it amusing and a bit sad hearing our fearless feckless bone spurred POTUS praise that which he abhorred in the past and went to great lengths to avoid. I recall his bravado that he would have entered, unarmed, to confront the Stoneman Douglas school shooter; would reduce our enemies to rubble as never before seen in our history (make that HIS make believe history); increase the national debt at unheard of amounts to give HIS people tax breaks and once again proving trickle down economics didn't work in the past and won't now. The man is totally void of any intellect; has no tact; no plans (except for him personally); no solutions; does know how to punish those of color and putting children in cages. He is a typical ignorant overweight mall ninja that somehow sits in the most powerful position in the world, while diminishing the status of USA in the eyes of the world.

Make America Great Again - Dump Trump !!


----------



## Johnny b

These are the words and thoughts of a monster:

* Trump says detention facilities 'beautifully run' after report describes dangerous conditions *

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news...utifully-run-detention-facilities/1660455001/

The above goes on while evangelicals worship him as an emissary of God.

And all you need to do to make America Great is wear a red MAGA ball cap and cheer the monster 

Something is seriously wrong with our society.


----------



## storage_man

I really don't give a Hoot about the conditions that anybody that commuted a crime by entering the USA illegally is in. If they don't like the conditions, there is the door strait across the border, go someplace else. If you don't like the conditions that they are being held in, why don't you just buy some plane tickets for them back to their home country, or better yet, take them in to your residence. Feed them, Cloth them, but don't expect any welfare, child support. Help them to become citizens of the USA. I'm sure everybody that complains about their conditions will do that. Let me know when that happens.


----------



## valis

Gonna have to change the plaque on Statue Of Liberty then....


----------



## Wino

valis said:


> Gonna have to change the plaque on Statue Of Liberty then....


No, just change president - problem solved.


----------



## Johnny b

storage_man said:


> I really don't give a Hoot about the conditions that anybody that commuted a crime by entering the USA illegally is in. If they don't like the conditions, there is the door strait across the border, go someplace else. If you don't like the conditions that they are being held in, why don't you just buy some plane tickets for them back to their home country, or better yet, take them in to your residence. Feed them, Cloth them, but don't expect any welfare, child support. Help them to become citizens of the USA. I'm sure everybody that complains about their conditions will do that. Let me know when that happens.


It's a given that you approve the inhumane conditions Trump has imposed upon immigrants seeking sanctuary.
I never thought your position otherwise.


----------



## Johnny b

A dictator speaketh?

* Trump tells congresswomen to 'go back' to the 'crime infested places from which they came' *

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news...swomen-go-back-counties-they-came/1728253001/

( I wonder what applies to those US citizens that elected them? Put to death as supposed traitors?  )


----------



## Chawbacon

Johnny b said:


> A dictator speaketh?
> 
> * Trump tells congresswomen to 'go back' to the 'crime infested places from which they came' *
> 
> https://www.usatoday.com/story/news...swomen-go-back-counties-they-came/1728253001/
> 
> ( I wonder what applies to those US citizens that elected them? Put to death as supposed traitors?  )


Seems to me that both sides are just being stupid about this whole twitter back and forth.

These particular Democrats look for racism behind every curtain, and Trump will be Trump and will tweet responses that will be interpreted as racist regardless of the content, or intent, of the tweet in question.

Let's face it. 
These Democrats could say that they love puppies and Trump would find a way to say the loving puppies is hating the country AND
Trump could say that he loves puppies and these Democrats would find a way to say that Trump loving puppies is racist.

Personally, I think that Trump should have kept out of the issue. The Democrat leadership was doing a fine job of calling each other racist, or overzealous freshmen, without his direct involvement.


----------



## Johnny b

Chawbacon said:


> Seems to me that both sides are just being stupid about this whole twitter back and forth.
> 
> These particular Democrats look for racism behind every curtain, and Trump will be Trump and will tweet responses that will be interpreted as racist regardless of the content, or intent, of the tweet in question.
> 
> Let's face it.
> These Democrats could say that they love puppies and Trump would find a way to say the loving puppies is hating the country AND
> Trump could say that he loves puppies and these Democrats would find a way to say that Trump loving puppies is racist.
> 
> Personally, I think that Trump should have kept out of the issue. The Democrat leadership was doing a fine job of calling each other racist, or overzealous freshmen, without his direct involvement.


Personally, I don't think there is any rationalization that can erase the imagery of a racist President and the racists that support him.
Racism is nothing new to the Trump nationalist platform.
Racism was an element of the Trump Empire going at least, back into the early 1970's as an element of their business model.
It's what they are.


----------



## Brigham

When I think of Trump, the Oscar Wilde quote comes to mind.
. "The only thing worse than being talked about, is not being talked about."


----------



## Johnny b

Trump is a racist.

He has a long history of expressing it.

Vox has put together a list of examples of his racist attitude.

* Donald Trump's long history of racism, from the 1970s to 2019 *

https://www.vox.com/2016/7/25/12270880/donald-trump-racist-racism-history

There are simply too many examples to copy and paste in this post!


----------



## Wino

Does supporting a racist mean one is also a racist, too or just pathetically abysmal??


----------



## Johnny b

Wino said:


> Does supporting a racist mean one is also a racist, too or just pathetically abysmal??


IMO, because of the degree of Trump's racist exposure, those supporting him are of a same mind, racist.

That Vox article is one hell of a long list of examples.


----------



## Johnny b

Here we go again 

* FBI tied Donald Trump and top aides to 2016 effort to silence a porn star, new court files show *

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news...ush-money-payments-stormy-daniels/1757820001/



> A day after the public heard Donald Trump boasting about grabbing women's genitals in a leaked Access Hollywood outtake, the then-Republican presidential candidate and some of his top aides began an urgent effort to silence a pornographic actress, court records unsealed on Thursday show.


God's emissary? Ha!


----------



## Johnny b

Wino said:


> Does supporting a racist mean one is also a racist, too or just pathetically abysmal??


It's an opinion piece, but addresses your question pretty well, imo.

* Column: There's no difference between supporting a racist and being one *

https://www.chicagotribune.com/colu...0190718-ngjm4vqe3vdgrli3eb7kbkw6hy-story.html


----------



## Wino

The orange ogre thinks that you hate the country if you don't support him. I know of no one that hates the nation, but plenty whom abhor him and all he stands for, which isn't the nation. I know I'm not leaving, and I probably dislike him more than the Squad.


----------



## valis

Another thing I would pay good money for....seeing Trump and Omar take the US citizenship together, and results broadcast on live TV.....even though I know the outcome.

Schadenfreude baby...


----------



## Johnny b

Interesting news article at Fox.
Are they hedging their bets in possible anticipation of a negative outcome from Mueller and his report, after all? (rhetorical)

* Nadler: Substantial evidence President Trump 'guilty of high crimes and misdemeanors' contained in Mueller report *
https://www.foxnews.com/media/nadler-trump-impeachment-fox-news-sunday

At the same time, I also notice Chris Wallace of Fox News has come out saying Trump is using racial division as a political tool.

* Fox News host Chris Wallace tells Stephen Miller: 'No question' Trump is 'stoking racial divisions' *
https://www.usatoday.com/story/news...llace-stephen-miller-trump-racism/1790299001/


----------



## Johnny b

As bad as all the fascists, racists and fundamentalists (worshiping Trump as an emissary of God ) that are supporting Trump, I came across this to add to that pile:

* What Is QAnon: Explaining the Internet Conspiracy Theory That Showed Up at a Trump Rally *
https://www.nytimes.com/2018/08/01/us/politics/what-is-qanon.html?module=inline

I've been wondering who the Trumpites were appeasing when complaining about the Deep State.



> Here is the short version: Q claims to be a government insider exposing an entrenched, international bureaucracy that is secretly plotting all sorts of nefarious schemes against the Trump administration and its supporters. The character uses lingo that implies that he or she has a military or intelligence background.
> 
> It's a stew of various, but connecting, conspiracy theories that generally hold Mr. Trump as a conquistador battling a cabal of anti-American saboteurs who have taken over government, industry, media and various other institutions of public life in a plan to … well, the overarching goals of the nefarious actors are not clear.


It seems BS Receptivity reached epidemic proportions with the election of Trump, that covers a wide spectrum of mental illness.


----------



## Johnny b

America has always had it's racists through out history, but now it's mainstream and Trump has obviously brought together those of that mentality as a political force:

* President Trump's job approval rating reaches high mark in NPR/PBS/Marist poll after racist tweets *

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news...-npr-pbs-poll-after-racist-tweets/1796556001/



> In fact, his approval rating among registered voters nationally reached a new high at 44% in an NPR/PBS NewsHour/Marist poll released Monday. But overall, the president is underwater with voters: 52% of those polled disapprove of the job he is doing. The poll was conducted from July 15-17, which was after the tweet he sent on July 14 and was condemned in a House resolution on Tuesday.


----------



## Chawbacon

*READ: Justice Department letter to Mueller about his testimony*
https://www.cnn.com/2019/07/22/politics/doj-letter-to-robert-mueller/index.html


> The Justice Department wrote to Robert Mueller on Monday about his upcoming testimony, saying it "must remain within the boundaries of your public report because matters within the scope of your investigation were covered by executive privilege."


*Justice Dept. Letter Warns Mueller to Stay in 'Boundaries' of His Report*
https://www.nytimes.com/2019/07/22/us/politics/mueller-justice-department-letter.html

*DOJ letter to Mueller instructs him to limit testimony to what was in the report*
https://www.washingtonexaminer.com/...-to-limit-testimony-to-what-was-in-the-report

*Only one small problem here...*

*Barr says Mueller asked DOJ to send letter limiting testimony to 'boundaries' of report*
https://www.foxnews.com/politics/ba...imony-must-remain-within-boundaries-of-report


> Attorney General Bill Barr told Fox News on Tuesday that it was former Special Counsel Robert Mueller's team who asked the Justice Department to send Mueller a letter telling him to keep his upcoming testimony to House lawmakers "within the boundaries" of the public version of his Russia probe report.


----------



## Johnny b

The degree of oppression it's come to under Trump:

*Neo-Nazi SWATters Target Dozens of Journalists *

https://krebsonsecurity.com/2019/07/neo-nazi-swatters-target-dozens-of-journalists/#more-48332


----------



## Johnny b

Moscow Mitch 

* Mitch McConnell lashes out at the media on Senate floor about 'Moscow Mitch' accusation *

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news...sations-being-russian-sympathizer/1862588001/

Really? Why should he be surprised?



> On Friday, MSNBC host Joe Scarborough called McConnell "Moscow Mitch" during a segment of his "Morning Joe" show because the majority leader halted two measures aimed at preventing foreign interference in U.S. elections.
> 
> McConnell blocked the bills on Thursday, a day after former special counsel Robert Mueller appeared before two House committees and reiterated how his 448-page report found the Russian government interfered in the 2016 presidential election.
> 
> Mueller also warned that Russia is planning to interfere in the 2020 election "as we sit here."


Seems fitting.


----------



## Wino

Moscow Mitch is correct that honest elections will elect more Dems:

https://www.commondreams.org/views/...ure-open-elections-would-elect-more-democrats



> Guess what: McConnell is right! Legislation to secure our elections is partisan. And the fact that it's partisan shows just how pathological the Republican Party has become in its determination to hold on to power.
> 
> So here are some things that, in our system today, are "partisan" in the sense that if we were to do them they would advantage the Democratic Party over the Republican Party:
> 
> Securing our voting systems from foreign hacking
> 
> Allowing every American to vote
> 
> Making it as easy as possible for Americans to vote
> 
> Ensuring that all votes count equally
> 
> *Now consider what it says about your party if doing those things would make it much more likely that you'd lose.
> So much of what plagues our election system works to the advantage of Republicans, in part because their voters tend to be older and wealthier, and in part because of all the effort Republicans have put into erecting obstacles in the path of Democratic-leaning constituencies attempting to vote, not to mention the gerrymandering that makes Republican votes worth more and the electoral college that does the same.
> Republicans have quite plainly looked at our current state of electoral dysfunction and concluded that it's working pretty darn well for them. Donald Trump is president, isn't he? Why would we want to mess with a system that's producing such wonderful outcomes? *


----------



## storage_man

Chawbacon said:


> *READ: Justice Department letter to Mueller about his testimony*
> https://www.cnn.com/2019/07/22/politics/doj-letter-to-robert-mueller/index.html
> 
> *Justice Dept. Letter Warns Mueller to Stay in 'Boundaries' of His Report*
> https://www.nytimes.com/2019/07/22/us/politics/mueller-justice-department-letter.html
> 
> *DOJ letter to Mueller instructs him to limit testimony to what was in the report*
> https://www.washingtonexaminer.com/...-to-limit-testimony-to-what-was-in-the-report
> 
> *Only one small problem here...*
> 
> *Barr says Mueller asked DOJ to send letter limiting testimony to 'boundaries' of report*
> https://www.foxnews.com/politics/ba...imony-must-remain-within-boundaries-of-report


Of course, he is still employed by the Justice Dept. That's not repression, just good common sense. If your employer, allowed you to speak to a competitor, I'm sure they would remind you to "stay the course". If you did wander off course, you probably wouldn't be employed anymore and/or subject to a new set of lawsuits. Its just standard operating procedures both in business and Government.


----------



## Johnny b

Trump promises to cure childhood cancer and end the Aids epidemic.
All you have to do is re-elect him (  )

* Trump claims he'll 'end the AIDS epidemic,' 'cure childhood cancer' at Cincinnati rally *

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news...dent-trump-rally-aids-cancer-cure/1896984001/


----------



## Johnny b

How little he knows, how little he cares to know:

* 'Those who died in Toledo': Trump mixes up Ohio cities while giving remarks on mass shootings *

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news...ump-says-shooting-happened-toledo/1920763001/



> "If we are able to pass great legislation after all of these years, we will ensure that those who were attacked will not have died in vain. May God bless the memory of those who died in Toledo. May God protect them," Trump said.


 :down:


----------



## Wino

Turnip is such a classless dip. It was refreshing seeing and hearing Obama comments sounding presidential in comparison to the stunted, unemotional ramblings of orange putz.


----------



## Johnny b

The Russians are coming (again) but now they'll be disguised as 'conservative' Republicans.

* Trump admin reportedly drafting order to counter social media "bias" *

https://arstechnica.com/tech-policy...-drafting-order-to-counter-social-media-bias/


----------



## Johnny b

* FBI agents are livid that Trump is amplifying 'bulls--- theories' about Jeffrey Epstein's death 'that have no basis in reality' *

https://www.businessinsider.com/fbi...onspiracy-theory-jeffrey-epstein-death-2019-8

All we need now to be a banana republic are the plantations 
( https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Banana_republic )


----------



## Chawbacon

Johnny b said:


> * FBI agents are livid that Trump is amplifying 'bulls--- theories' about Jeffrey Epstein's death 'that have no basis in reality' *
> 
> https://www.businessinsider.com/fbi...onspiracy-theory-jeffrey-epstein-death-2019-8
> 
> All we need now to be a banana republic are the plantations
> ( https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Banana_republic )


Cannot say that I disagree with you here Johnny. 

I am sure that Epstein's notes, diary, ledgers, video surveillance systems, etc... contained incriminating information on a lot of powerful people. With that in mind, any of those individuals should be considered a potential conspirator to assist with the suicide, or the designer of an orchestrated of a murder. Of course, unlikely as it seems, this could be a straight up suicide surrounded by government incompetence; but, we will need to wait for more details in order to develop an informed decision.


----------



## Johnny b

Agreed. 
There are many potential suspects of many political persuasions and it could be a suicide.
Evidence will be the determination. 
And it will likely be a long investigation.


----------



## Chawbacon

Yeah. A Federal investigation is being bantered about among the politicians, DOJ, and FBI. Which may not be a good thing... sometimes a Federal investigation is the place where concerns go to die.


----------



## valis

'Concerns'. Like Vincent Foster.

Sadly, you are correct. Obviously in my own view. I am not a tinfoil hat specialist but this stinks even to me.


----------



## Wino

So a cabal of left and right wing wealthy men and women conspired to off Epstein?? How about the dip offed himself rather than face the humilliation of his deeds cause like his associates they are cowards and we all know, most of the rich are above the law. Again, sometimes a suicide is just a suicide.


----------



## valis

Wino said:


> So a cabal of left and right wing wealthy men and women conspired to off Epstein?? How about the dip offed himself rather than face the humilliation of his deeds cause like his associates they are cowards and we all know, most of the rich are above the law. Again, sometimes a suicide is just a suicide.


That was no suicide my friend.

Assisted, maybe. But no suicide.


----------



## valis

Obviously IMHO.


----------



## Johnny b

Chawbacon said:


> Yeah. A Federal investigation is being bantered about among the politicians, DOJ, and FBI. Which may not be a good thing... sometimes a Federal investigation is the place where concerns go to die.


Corruption seems to transcend much of our society.
If not the 'system', who should be responsible for an investigation?

How about a Special Council? 
Where reports can be so redacted, interpretation becomes a game of sophistry.

How about Moscow Mitch? 
or even...
Putin? (  )

Make America Great Again? The above is a symptom of a dying society.


----------



## Johnny b

Early reports of Epstein's death conflict.
Hmmmm?

* The death of Jeffrey Epstein: Fact, fiction, confusion and a warden reassigned *

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news...d-confusion-surrounding-his-death/1996356001/



> CBS News reported that shouting and shrieking was heard from Epstein's cell at the Manhattan Correctional Center on the morning he died. Guards attempted to revive Epstein while saying "Breathe, Epstein, breathe," the news outlet reported - but cited no sources.
> 
> A lawyer for an inmate locked up a few cells away, however, said his client heard nothing out of the ordinary on Saturday morning.
> 
> "Nobody heard anything," lawyer Bruce Barket told NBC News on Tuesday. "It was a silent act."


in addition:


> Guards on the unit are now suspected of falsifying log entries to show they were making the checks, another person familiar with the probe told The Associated Press.


----------



## Johnny b

* Immigration official Ken Cuccinelli: Statue of Liberty poem refers to immigrants from Europe *
https://www.usatoday.com/story/news...berty-poem-refers-migrants-europe/2004455001/

The original plaque at the bottom of the Statue of Liberty:


> "Give me your tired, your poor, your huddled masses yearning to breathe free, The wretched refuse of your teeming shore. Send these, the homeless, tempest-tost to me, I lift my lamp beside the golden door!"


The Trumptonian version according to a Trump puppet:


> "Give me your tired, your poor who can stand on their own two feet and who will not become a public charge,
> 
> "Of course that poem was referring back to people coming from Europe where they had class-based societies, where people were considered wretched if they weren't in the right class,"


Bet that sells well at the next Klan meeting.


----------



## Chawbacon

Johnny b said:


> * Immigration official Ken Cuccinelli: Statue of Liberty poem refers to immigrants from Europe *
> https://www.usatoday.com/story/news...berty-poem-refers-migrants-europe/2004455001/
> 
> The original plaque at the bottom of the Statue of Liberty:
> 
> The Trumptonian version according to a Trump puppet:
> 
> Bet that sells well at the next Klan meeting.


Nice... So you are saying that stating an observed fact about history is somehow racist... Just amazing. 

For those who may not be versed in this portion of history, the Statue of Liberty was basically a gift to the US by France in a recognition of the friendship between France and the US, to recognize a flourishing democracy in America based upon individual freedom, and to observe the appropriateness of the abolition of slavery; as opposed to the caste societies that governed most of Europe through a Monarchical structure. The name that the French gave to the statue was "Liberty Enlightening the World". Even the poem on the base supporting the Statue of Liberty recognizes this; however, individuals with agendas often leave off that little part...


> "*"Keep, ancient lands, your storied pomp!"*" cries she
> With silent lips. "Give me your tired, your poor,
> Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free,
> The wretched refuse of your teeming shore.
> Send these, the homeless, tempest-tost to me,...


Additionally, the POEM on the base, on which the Statue of Liberty stands, was part of a fundraiser to pay for said base and was not added until approximately 20 years after the Statue of Liberty was constructed. And... Yes, the poem does embody many values espoused by America. But, understand that throughout the history of America (minus the last 40 years approximately), immigrants were expected to integrate and adopt American values. With one of those primary values being to become a productive worker, farmer, or business owner, etc., as opposed to a handout taker on the government dole.


----------



## Johnny b

Chawbacon said:


> Nice... So you are saying that stating an observed fact about history is somehow racist... Just amazing.
> ...........................


Again with the reading comprehension.
No...it's the Trump shill that re-interpreted the poem as racist dogma.
Pretty obvious, Jack.

Trumpites hate Hispanics.
And they are bleaching the nation in response.

An excerpt from your post about the poem:


> ""Keep, ancient lands, your storied pomp!""


followed by


> cries she
> With silent lips. "Give me your tired, your poor,
> Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free,
> The wretched refuse of your teeming shore.
> Send these, the homeless, tempest-tost to me


Do you understand the context of 'storied pomp' in association with 'ancient lands'?

Hint: It's the opposite of : "Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free,
The wretched refuse of your teeming shore.
Send these, the homeless, tempest-tost to me ".

The meaning: to the world, send those yearning to be free and willing to embrace the opportunities that a democracy provides. (Rather than their elite that would tend to abuse it.)
It was an invitation to democracy. To join and help build a free society.
Not racist at all.

The opposite of Trump's fascism.

Not the racist, fascist mantra of Trump's nationalism.


----------



## storage_man

Ah another thread about Epstein ! My question is and will remain, "Why did he commit Suicide" ? 

He was awaiting trial (Not like he was already convicted) ? He beat the charges before in Florida, why not here. No reason to commit suicide. That picture that was posted in the other thread here by JB showing a painting in Epstein's Condo in NY of William Jefferson Clinton (In the magic BLUE DRESS) tells it all. It was Arkincide ! Simple an straight forward, and nobody will ever be around to tell the truth !


----------



## Johnny b

storage_man said:


> Ah another thread about Epstein ! My question is and will remain, "Why did he commit Suicide" ?
> 
> He was awaiting trial (Not like he was already convicted) ? He beat the charges before in Florida, why not here. No reason to commit suicide. That picture that was posted in the other thread here by JB showing a painting in Epstein's Condo in NY of William Jefferson Clinton (In the magic BLUE DRESS) tells it all. It was Arkincide ! Simple an straight forward, and nobody will ever be around to tell the truth !


<Yawn>


----------



## steppenwolf

im thinking of voting for Weld


----------



## steppenwolf

trump is for 5g? if so, that will give us cancer


----------



## valis

Why would that give us cancer?


----------



## Johnny b

* Shell Union Workers Had to Choose Between Attending President Trump's Speech or Losing Pay: Reports *
https://time.com/5654772/shell-union-trump-speech-no-pay/
.......................

* Workers Reportedly Told They Would Lose Pay if Didn't Attend Trump Speech *
https://slate.com/news-and-politics...told-lose-pay-failed-attend-trump-speech.html

......................

* Trump's speech at a Shell plant drew thousands of workers. They were paid overtime to be there. *
https://www.washingtonpost.com/busi...-they-were-paid-extra-be-there/?noredirect=on

.......................

* 'No Yelling, Shouting, Protesting': Shell Workers Captive Audience During Trump Visit *
https://www.newsweek.com/shell-pennsylvania-trump-union-ethylene-1454858


----------



## Johnny b

It's about focus.

* Donald Trump is touting voter fraud as 'The' issue in the upcoming 2020 election.*
https://www.usatoday.com/story/news...t-part-election-security-measures/2030487001/

Trump lost the popular vote in 2016 by a large margin and claims voter fraud created a lack of his support, even though no investigations found evidence of his claims.
Trump claimed Russia had no involvement in influencing and corrupting our electoral process, even though evidence was found that there was massive influence in all the states.
That was an attempted coverup of a process that obviously put Trump in power.

Voter ID is merely a diversionary argument from the real problem that still exists. Russian involvement.

* After Robert Mueller's warning, a broad agreement on election threats but not on what to do about them *
https://www.usatoday.com/story/news...plit-fixing-2020-election-threats/1826186001/



> Mueller's two-year investigation of Russia's efforts in 2016 determined that the Kremlin had engaged in a "sweeping" assault on the U.S. political system.
> ....
> "The Russian government's (continuing) efforts to interfere in our election is among the most serious," Mueller told the House Intelligence Committee on Wednesday. "I hope it's not the new normal, but I fear it is."
> ......


And now we come to how McConnell got tagged with the nickname 'Moscow Mitch'.
He's been blocking any potential legislation that addresses securing our election from Russian interference.
(too much to copy and paste, please read the above article)

A little more:
https://thehill.com/blogs/blog-brie...-is-a-russian-trends-after-gop-senator-blocks

Focus.

The American public is an audience experiencing the dying days of democracy.
The perpetrators aren't just 'enemies of the state', they're enemies of our society and many sit in elected offices.

And for the frustrated Trumptionians, siding with fascists is not a logical response to socialism. Both concepts are anti-democratic.


----------



## Johnny b

valis said:


> Why would that give us cancer?


Tin foil poisoning


----------



## steppenwolf

5g? stuff all over youtube about 5g being bad and on *****ute.com..i dont trust it

i dont even like 4g


----------



## steppenwolf

obama had the Yemen war going and now trump keeps it up and kids starve ...well im not voting for him again unless the others are worse...im disgusted


----------



## Johnny b

Trump seems to have been upset with Fox News lately.
I'd like to have seen Trump's facial expression after reading this Fox News article, yesterday:

* Budget agency predicts trillion-dollar deficits for years to come, as red ink explodes *
https://www.foxnews.com/politics/go...on-dollar-deficits-for-the-foreseeable-future



> The CBO report underscores how deficits are rising once again, as Democrats and Republicans in Congress -- and the Trump administration -- show little interest in tackling the red ink.


----------



## Johnny b

A tyrant speaks:

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news...d-u-s-companies-avoid-china-trade/2095301001/



> he "hereby ordered" U.S. companies to "start looking for an alternative to China"


And if that isn't bad enough, he's been arguing for interest rates heading to the 'negative'.

* Negative interest rates are coming and they are downright terrifying *

https://finance.yahoo.com/news/negative-interest-rates-japan-germany-france-150324580.html

So, what is the difference between Bernie Sanders/AOC and Donald Trump?
None seem to support an economy based on capitalism.
They merely demand different economic structures that lead to the financial ruin of the US.
They all lie.
All have radical support from within our society, and one particularly from the outside.
Maybe that's the real difference.

Oligarchs


----------



## Johnny b

The tyrant was just kidding about being the 'chosen one'



* 'It was sarcasm': President Donald Trump changes course on 'chosen one' remark *

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news...hosen-one-sarcasm-china-trade-war/2105649001/



> "You know exactly what I meant," Trump told reporters at the White House late Friday before departing to the G-7 summit in France. "It was sarcasm. It was joking. We were all smiling. And a question like that is just fake news."




Such imagery!

The Emissary of God back pedaling. LOL!


----------



## Johnny b

More on Trump's demands

* Trump Asserts He Can Force U.S. Companies to Leave China *

https://www.nytimes.com/2019/08/24/world/europe/trump-g7-summit.html



> BIARRITZ, France - President Trump asserted on Saturday that he has the authority to make good on his threat to force all American businesses to leave China, citing a national security law that has been used mainly to target terrorists, drug traffickers and outlier states like Iran, Syria and Libya.


----------



## Chawbacon

Johnny b said:


> The tyrant was just kidding about being the 'chosen one'
> 
> 
> 
> * 'It was sarcasm': President Donald Trump changes course on 'chosen one' remark *
> 
> https://www.usatoday.com/story/news...hosen-one-sarcasm-china-trade-war/2105649001/
> 
> 
> 
> Such imagery!
> 
> The Emissary of God back pedaling. LOL!


So Trump makes a sarcastic joke and the over-reacting press takes him literally. I think that this rightfully falls within the category of "Fake News."

Oh... Loved the cartoon though Johnny. Had a nice chuckle there.


----------



## Johnny b

^^^^^ always the apologist 

Yes, Trump fakes a lot


----------



## Chawbacon

Oh. I am the apologist? I beg to differ, I simply prefer to give people the benefit of a doubt.

But lets talk about the double standard here. Let us look at some Newsweek covers from Obama's presidency and consider the polar opposite reaction from the press. The sad part here, is that Newsweek was dead serious in attempting to elevate a man to a godhood like status. Anyone (regardless of party) believing that their supported political candidate is God incarnate has serious issues. 
















And then there is this painting that was displayed at the Boston Gallery. Where was the outrage from the press here?


----------



## Johnny b

And then you whine a lot about it


----------



## Johnny b

Chawbacon said:


> So Trump makes a sarcastic joke and the over-reacting press takes him literally. I think that this rightfully falls within the category of "Fake News."
> 
> Oh... Loved the cartoon though Johnny. Had a nice chuckle there.


* Trump Says Obvious "Chosen One" Remark Was Sarcastic Because He Was Smiling. He Wasn't Smiling. *

https://slate.com/news-and-politics...miling-chosen-one-video-proves-otherwise.html

You trumpies will believe just about anything Trump claims in rebuttal 

Let's go to the tape (  )

https://www.c-span.org/video/?46359...es-questions-reporters-south-lawn-white-house

Start at minute 16.0

No laughs. Trump claims to be the chosen one as he turns and looks upward to, apparently, Heaven.

'Someone had to do it. I am the chosen one' LOL!
And he even claims the trade war with China isn't his war ( ? ) even though he did start it.

And he still seems upset with Obama.


----------



## Johnny b

A tyrant speaks about granting pardons in order to build the wall before the next election.

Everyone's favorite (  .... )





* Trump reportedly promised pardons to aides who break the law to build border wall by 2020 election *

https://www.cnbc.com/2019/08/28/tru...border-wall-built-before-election-report.html

* 'Take the land': President Trump wants a border wall. He wants it black. And he wants it by Election Day. *

https://www.washingtonpost.com/immi...e9-a4f3-c081a126de70_story.html?noredirect=on



> President Trump is so eager to complete hundreds of miles of border fence ahead of the 2020 presidential election that he has directed aides to fast-track billions of dollars' worth of construction contracts, aggressively seize private land and disregard environmental rules, according to current and former officials involved with the project.


I suspect Trumpers will claim it's all a big joke like his blasphemous claim of being 'The Chosen One'.


----------



## Johnny b

These are indeed, strange times 

*'Fox isn't working for us anymore!': Trump slams Fox News for 2020 coverage *

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news...rump-slams-fox-news-2020-coverage/2139749001/



> "I don't want to Win for myself, I only want to Win for the people," he continued. "The New @FoxNews is letting millions of GREAT people down! We have to start looking for a new News Outlet. Fox isn't working for us anymore!"


His royal highness, the Emissary of God, has decreed:
Fox News has become Faux News LOL!
(Like that wasn't already known  )


----------



## Wino

OH, NO!!! Fox sycophants go rogue !!


----------



## Johnny b

> 73-year-old Trump acts as if his frontal lobe is made of Swiss cheese.


* Correction: Trump never said all those things you heard him say *
https://www.washingtonpost.com/opin...a08c2a-da48-11e9-a688-303693fb4b0b_story.html


----------



## SeanLaurence

Tabvla said:


> There are two questions that Forum Members might like to think about and then give their view.
> 
> Q1. How many days will Trump serve as US President?
> Q2. For what reason will his presidency be ended?
> 
> ------------------------- Some info to help answer the questions -------------------------
> 
> Minimum number of days : 1 day
> Maximum number of days : 2,922 days (8 x 365 + 2)
> 
> Possible reasons for presidency to be terminated (in Alphabetical order)
> 
> Completes both terms and therefore must leave office
> 
> Completes first term and does not get re-elected
> Impeachment
> Loses the support of the Republican Party
> Resignation due to perceived threat of danger
> 
> Resignation due to personal issues
> 
> Scandals
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> 
> I like your poll, but I see some inaccuracies in the initial questions and wonder if you would consider tightening it up?
> 
> "Loses support of the Republican Party" should read "Does not win GOP Primaries for second term, so can't run for re-election"
> The two resignation options would be better replaced by these two 25th amendment options:
> 25th Amendment, Section 3: President voluntarily resigns (This covers both your options)
> 25th Amendment, Section 4: President forced to resign by the VP and a cabinet majority
> Remove "scandals" as it is not a means to remove a president beyond what impeachment or the 25th amendment allow.





Tabvla said:


> There are two questions that Forum Members might like to think about and then give their view.
> 
> Q1. How many days will Trump serve as US President?
> Q2. For what reason will his presidency be ended?
> 
> ------------------------- Some info to help answer the questions -------------------------
> 
> Minimum number of days : 1 day
> Maximum number of days : 2,922 days (8 x 365 + 2)
> 
> Possible reasons for presidency to be terminated (in Alphabetical order)
> 
> Completes both terms and therefore must leave office
> 
> Completes first term and does not get re-elected
> Impeachment
> Loses the support of the Republican Party
> Resignation due to perceived threat of danger
> 
> Resignation due to personal issues
> 
> Scandals
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


I like your poll, but I see some inaccuracies in the initial questions and wonder if you would consider tightening it up?

"Loses support of the Republican Party" should read "Does not win GOP Primaries for second term, so can't run for re-election"
The two resignation options would be better replaced by these two 25th amendment options:
25th Amendment, Section 3: President voluntarily resigns (This covers both your options)
25th Amendment, Section 4: President forced to resign by the VP and a cabinet majority
Remove "scandals" as it is not a means to remove a president beyond what impeachment or the 25th amendment allow.


----------



## Johnny b

SeanLaurence said:


> I like your poll,......


What poll?


----------



## SeanLaurence

When this thread was created, the first message appeared in a fashion that looks like a poll.
I am guessing that either the poll feature didn't exist at the time, or maybe he had a poll that expired.


----------



## Johnny b

SeanLaurence said:


> When this thread was created, the first message appeared in a fashion that looks like a poll.
> I am guessing that either the poll feature didn't exist at the time, or maybe he had a poll that expired.


You'd be wrong.
TSG has almost always offered the option, I think all the way back to at least 2002 when I first joined.
Ask Cookiegal.
That was even before Cookiegal was an administrator here, though.
ACA Candy was the administrator then.

The days when Mulder roamed TSG.
Those were the days :up: 
But things change and sometimes they have to/ need to .


----------



## Johnny b

I remember one of my early polls. 

It involved choosing where a person thought serious financial wealth kicked in.
I gave about 5 levels of monetary wealth and some people even objected because I didn't include children or happiness .....

If you search and find that thread I started ( as aka Stoner ) I suspect you'll still find the poll in my opening post. I remember it was there long after the poll closed and the thread was dead.


----------



## SeanLaurence

Well John, I did say I was guessing. But it is so like you to jump all over that instead of just writing that I am correct, there are only those specific mechanisms to remove a president from office.
I would like to start my own poll with those questions, but I feel it would be a repeating this thread.


----------



## Johnny b

SeanLaurence said:


> Well John, I did say I was guessing. But it is so like you to jump all over that instead of just writing that I am correct, there are only those specific mechanisms to remove a president from office.
> I would like to start my own poll with those questions, but I feel it would be a repeating this thread.


Sadly 
You simply weren't correct.
And if you want a poll start a thread with one


----------



## Johnny b

Chawbacon said:


> So Trump makes a sarcastic joke and the over-reacting press takes him literally. I think that this rightfully falls within the category of "Fake News."
> 
> Oh... Loved the cartoon though Johnny. Had a nice chuckle there.


Is this a sarcastic joke or an act of desperation, considering, if Trump loses the next election there is a possibility collusion allegations will bite him where the sun doesn't shine 

* Trump says 'it doesn't matter' if he asked Ukraine to investigate Joe Biden *
https://www.usatoday.com/story/news...e-asked-ukraine-investigate-biden/2383506001/



> President Donald Trump said Friday it "doesn't matter" if he asked the government of Ukraine to investigate Democratic opponent Joe Biden and his son, and that it should be done anyway.
> 
> "Someone ought to look into Joe Biden," Trump told reporters while declining to discuss investigations into whether he and aides are pressuring Ukraine to investigate one of his most prominent political opponents.


Ukraine eh?
Sounds familiar.
Someone in Donald's 2016 campaign?

( Too much to copy and paste. Well worth the read  )

I see muddy waters in the futures of many politicians


----------



## Johnny b

I wonder if anyone is concerned about what he might have asked the Russians for?  ... ....


















!


----------



## Johnny b

I wonder if the tag 'empty seat Trump' will become a thing in future Trump rallies?


----------



## Wino

The scumbaggery of this sick man is astounding. Google Bill Maher on U-Tube for last nights "New Rules" - it's priceless and dead nuts accurate. Anyone supporting this maniac is as sick as he.


----------



## Johnny b

* Trump acknowledges bringing up Joe Biden in phone call with Ukraine president *

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news...-legit-democrats-call-impeachable/2409926001/

I wonder how long it'll take before we see a Presidential announcement denying that ever occurred?



Hello Stormy lol!


----------



## Cookiegal

Johnny b said:


> I remember one of my early polls.


That would be this one:
https://forums.techguy.org/threads/what-does-it-take-to-be-of-the-rich-wealthy.144147/


----------



## Johnny b

Cookiegal said:


> That would be this one:
> https://forums.techguy.org/threads/what-does-it-take-to-be-of-the-rich-wealthy.144147/


Sadly, I can't get the link to work 

All I see is:

Not my day


----------



## Johnny b

I have found a lot of fun stuff of mine posted in that distant past 
but no cigar.

This one was fun.
I agreed with Mulder LOL!
Hope the link works.
https://forums.techguy.org/threads/...side-of-the-issue.1023058/page-4#post-8120697

Wow, I had almost 45000 posts back then.


----------



## Cookiegal

Johnny b said:


> Sadly, I can't get the link to work


Sorry John. The Civilized Debate forum is still there but archived. I thought it was visible as "read only" to everyone but apparently not. Dang super powers are a curse at times.


----------



## Johnny b

LOL.


Darn
I was hoping to reminisce.


----------



## Cookiegal

Johnny b said:


> I was hoping to reminisce


I wasn't.


----------



## Johnny b

I can understand why. lol! I was a bad bad boy in those days.

Was the poll still visible?


----------



## Cookiegal

Johnny b said:


> Was the poll still visible?


Yes.


----------



## Johnny b

Thanks


----------



## Cookiegal

You're welcome. 

Polls don't disappear once they expire. You just can't vote in them any longer.


----------



## Johnny b

It needed updating anyway, inflation and all 

Maybe another time ..............................................


----------



## Cookiegal

Here's a screenshot of the poll:


----------



## Johnny b

Thanks again


----------



## Cookiegal




----------



## Johnny b

Trump's back to whining about not getting a Nobel Peace Prize.
Says he ought to be getting many but it's all unfair.



* Trump says he deserves a Nobel Prize for 'many things' but says selection not fair *
https://www.usatoday.com/story/news...aid-he-deserves-nobel-peace-prize/2420258001/

Personally. I don't think kissy-huggy with a short fat barrel with bad hair counts.


----------



## Johnny b

*Trump ordered hold on military aid days before calling Ukrainian president, officials say *

https://www.washingtonpost.com/nati...93a6ca-de38-11e9-8dc8-498eabc129a0_story.html



> President Trump told his acting chief of staff, Mick Mulvaney, to hold back almost $400 million in military aid for Ukraine at least a week before a phone call in which Trump is said to have pressured the Ukrainian president to investigate the son of former vice president Joe Biden, according to three senior administration officials.


He didn't do anything wrong, just ask him


----------



## Johnny b

* New York prosecutors reject Trump's immunity claim in tax returns case *
https://www.politico.com/story/2019/09/23/new-york-trump-tax-returns-1763041

As evidence of criminality would obviously impede the actions of a criminal President, unfortunately I see a catch 22 to the logic of the prosecutors.

https://www.justice.gov/olc/opinion...enability-indictment-and-criminal-prosecution



> The indictment or criminal prosecution of a sitting President would unconstitutionally undermine the capacity of the executive branch to perform its constitutionally assigned functions.


further:
https://www.justice.gov/sites/default/files/olc/opinions/2000/10/31/op-olc-v024-p0222_0.pdf

IMO, this was a flawed decision made without the foresight of such corruption seen in the Trump administration with a Congress bollixed up so badly it's ineffective.


----------



## Johnny b

Looks like the House is getting involved.

* House Speaker Nancy Pelosi announces formal impeachment inquiry of President Trump *
https://finance.yahoo.com/news/hous...ent-inquiry-of-president-trump-210759517.html



> House Speaker Nancy Pelosi (D-CA) announced a formal impeachment inquiry of President Trump after he acknowledged he withheld military aid to Ukraine, amid allegations that he did so to pressure the country into investigating presidential candidate and former Vice President Joe Biden and his son Hunter Biden. The president says aid was withheld because the United States was contributing more to Ukraine than other European countries.


----------



## Chawbacon

Johnny b said:


> Looks like the House is getting involved.
> 
> * House Speaker Nancy Pelosi announces formal impeachment inquiry of President Trump *
> https://finance.yahoo.com/news/hous...ent-inquiry-of-president-trump-210759517.html


The sad part is that the Democrats impeachment inquiry party came hours after the White House publicly stated that the phone transcript in question would be released tomorrow, in full, and without redaction. This could be another example of Trump working the media to his advantage; however, I will wait for the details to emerge before making any decision, which is probably what the Democrats should have done also.

From a legal standpoint on the accusation though, I do not believe that it would have been illegal for the President to withhold funds to a country due to corruption concerns, regardless of the individuals involved. Now, it could be argued that looking into a political opponent (in this case Biden's son) is morally repugnant; but, the powers given to the Office of the Presidency pretty much gives any President a very wide margin of error. I think that the President's bigger challenge here is in the allegation that the White House delayed the release of the report to Congress, which could actually be a violation of existing law. I don't think that President Trump's base is opposed to Trump toying with the press; however, it would not sit well with me if laws were broken while doing so. Again, this is speculative and is dependent on the transcript of the phone call.


----------



## Johnny b

Chawbacon said:


> The sad part is that the Democrats impeachment inquiry party came hours after the White House publicly stated that the phone transcript in question would be released tomorrow, in full, and without redaction. This could be another example of Trump working the media to his advantage; however, I will wait for the details to emerge before making any decision, which is probably what the Democrats should have done also.
> 
> From a legal standpoint on the accusation though, I do not believe that it would have been illegal for the President to withhold funds to a country due to corruption concerns, regardless of the individuals involved. Now, it could be argued that looking into a political opponent (in this case Biden's son) is morally repugnant; but, the powers given to the Office of the Presidency pretty much gives any President a very wide margin of error. I think that the President's bigger challenge here is in the allegation that the White House delayed the release of the report to Congress, which could actually be a violation of existing law. I don't think that President Trump's base is opposed to Trump toying with the press; however, it would not sit well with me if laws were broken while doing so. Again, this is speculative and is dependent on the transcript of the phone call.


Apologies mean little now, jack.
If tapes exist and show Trump is innocent, so be it. It is what it is.
I'm going to wait on that call 

As far as Trump toying with anything/anybody, a politician positioning himself in a potential scandal so foolishly before the run up of an election, is so stupid, he doesn't deserve the job title 
And we all know he often doesn't listen to his advisors.
Expect to see a lot of subpoenas.


----------



## Chawbacon

Johnny b said:


> Apologies mean little now, jack.
> If tapes exist and show Trump is innocent, so be it. It is what it is.
> I'm going to wait on that call
> 
> As far as Trump toying with anything/anybody, a politician positioning himself in a potential scandal so foolishly before the run up of an election, is so stupid, he doesn't deserve the job title
> And we all know he often doesn't listen to his advisors.
> Expect to see a lot of subpoenas.


Apology? OK...... Question... Do you see apologies when you read the back of a milk carton too?


----------



## Johnny b

Chawbacon said:


> Apology? OK...... Question... Do you see apologies when you read the back of a milk carton too?


I don't drink milk or the Kool Aid 

Just show us the tapes.


----------



## Johnny b

OMG!....Trump showed the transcript and by the headlines, it doesn't seem to look very good for him.

The transcript here:
https://www.usatoday.com/story/news...transcript-call-ukraine-president/2438300001/

Article here:
https://www.usatoday.com/story/news...e-release-whistleblower-complaint/2434388001/


> The White House released Wednesday a transcript of a July phone call with the Ukraine president that showed Trump repeatedly pressing him to re-open an investigation into a Ukrainian energy company to focus on any involvement by Democratic presidential candidate Joe Biden and his son, Hunter.


So, Jack....will there be a rebuke by the current 'Republican' Trump faction as you once projected of Trump's alleged crimes or another denial?

Or just more sophistry?


----------



## Johnny b

Interesting how this feels familiar.

I remember Trump as a civilian openly inviting the Russians to investigate his opponent. I still wonder what it costs us.






https://www.nytimes.com/2018/07/13/us/politics/trump-russia-clinton-emails.html

https://www.cnn.com/2019/09/20/politics/hillary-clinton-donald-trump-ukraine/index.html

And that became this:

https://www.cnn.com/2017/10/12/us/2016-presidential-election-investigation-fast-facts/index.html

And now there is an impeachment investigation involving the Ukraine.


----------



## Johnny b

* Pentagon Letter Undercuts Trump Assertion On Delaying Aid To Ukraine Over Corruption *

https://www.npr.org/2019/09/25/7644...ertion-on-delaying-aid-to-ukraine-over-corrup



> Earlier this week, President Trump cited concerns about corruption as his rationale for blocking security assistance to Ukraine. But in a letter sent to four congressional committees in May of this year and obtained by NPR, Undersecretary of Defense for Policy John Rood informs lawmakers that he has "certified that the Government of Ukraine has taken substantial actions to make defense institutional reforms for the purposes of decreasing corruption [and] increasing accountability."


Pentagon letter follows.


----------



## Johnny b

Interesting article on what the 'transcript' in question represents:

* Trump's Ukraine call: How are records kept for the president's conversations with world leaders? *

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news...esidential-conversations-recorded/2438667001/

Effectively, it's a 'recollection' that's been summarized and could even be influenced by way of bias.



> Such records are typically a rough transcript as a president's phone calls with world leaders are not recorded, according to Richard Haass, president of the Council on Foreign Relations. The formal draft instead relies on National Security Council (NSC) staff who are listening in and taking notes.
> ...................
> 
> The 30-minute call was in fact reduced to a five-page summary released by the Trump administration.


So, who chooses the NSC staff you ask.
Why, effectively, the President.

https://www.whitehouse.gov/nsc/


> The NSC is chaired by the President. Its regular attendees (both statutory and non-statutory) are the Vice President, the Secretary of State, the Secretary of the Treasury, the Secretary of Defense, and the Assistant to the President for National Security Affairs. The Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff is the statutory military advisor to the Council, and the Director of National Intelligence is the intelligence advisor. The Chief of Staff to the President, Counsel to the President, and the Assistant to the President for Economic Policy are invited to attend any NSC meeting. The Attorney General and the Director of the Office of Management and Budget are invited to attend meetings pertaining to their responsibilities. The heads of other executive departments and agencies, as well as other senior officials, are invited to attend meetings of the NSC when appropriate.


And the bias goes in favor of........the guy that staffs the NSC.
No wonder Trump felt so confident 

30 minute call = one brief 'transcript' ( summary ). I wonder what's missing


----------



## Johnny b

I imagine the movie and TV industries are working feverishly, writing scripts for this very topic, the history of a bent President.

How about the title: All the President's Men, Part 2


----------



## Johnny b

* Whistleblower says Trump 'used the power of his office' to solicit foreign help to discredit Joe Biden, complaint says *

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news...er-office-get-ukraine-smear-biden/3772915002/

His complaint :

https://assets.documentcloud.org/documents/6430388/20190812-Whistleblower-Complaint-Unclass.pdf
or
https://assets.documentcloud.org/documents/6430388/20190812-Whistleblower-Complaint-Unclass.txt

( from the article: )


> The whistleblower's complaint that sparked an impeachment inquiry against President Donald Trump was released Thursday, revealing deep concern that the president "used the power of his office to solicit interference from a foreign country to investigate one of the president's main political rivals."
> 
> The complaint, which offers more detail on Trump's efforts to urge Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelensky to investigate Democratic presidential candidate Joe Biden during a July 25 phone call, suggests that Trump's efforts "constitute a serious and flagrant problem."
> 
> The complaint cites the involvement of Trump's personal lawyer, Rudy Giuliani, as a "central figure in this effort."
> "Attorney General (William) Barr appears to be involved as well," the complaint said. A summary of Trump's call with Zelensky indicated that the president repeatedly offered to enlist Barr in the effort to push Ukraine to investigate Biden.


No wonder this was initially 'ignored'.
And there is one hell of a lot there to investigate.


----------



## Johnny b

I wonder if these new allegations have put the fear of opening that door to Russian collusion in All of The President's Men?

No wonder .......the Trumpies are coming with such lame excuses for Trump's phone call. 

Desperation?

Russian collusion all over again?
All because of one phone call.


----------



## Johnny b

lol!
Now Trump is claiming there are spies and traitors in the WhiteHouse and it's 'scum' that's reporting his crimes.

* Trump at private event: 'Who gave the whistleblower the information? Because that's close to a spy *
https://www.latimes.com/politics/st...er-the-information-because-thats-almost-a-spy



> President Trump expressed disgust Thursday morning with the explosive whistleblower complaint, slamming the intelligence officer and the White House aides who helped him or her as "almost a spy" and suggested it was treason.
> 
> Speaking at a private event in New York, Trump described reporters as "scum" and raged at the Democrats' new impeachment proceedings, which were spurred by the whistleblower's complaint alleging that Trump tried to strong-arm Ukraine's leader to interfere in the 2020 election.


And Trump's threat:



> ........ and suggested it was treason.
> 
> "You know what we used to do in the old days when we were smart? Right? The spies and treason, we used to handle it a little differently than we do now."


Looks like a poorly veiled threat to me


----------



## Johnny b

Politics lol!

* As whistleblower report on Trump and Ukraine reverberates through Washington, scandal will test Pence *

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news...hat-trump-ukraine-scandal-mean-vp/3778434002/

Too much to copy and paste all the important/interesting aspects of Pence's future. It's a good read.
Some out takes:



> Pence could be pressed to disclose what he knows about the Trump's dealings with Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelensky and the effort to push Zelensky to investigate former Vice President Joe Bide


And possibly, his involvement.


> Pence is mentioned once in the declassified version of the whistleblower complaint, .........
> Trump instructed Pence to cancel his plans to attend Zelensky's May 20 inauguration. Energy Secretary Rick Perry went instead.
> 
> That detail was given in the context of officials telling the whistleblower that it had been "made clear" to them that Trump didn't want to meet with Zelensky until he saw how the new leader "chose to act" in office.


Hmmm? Zelensky's bribe-ability quotient?


> (Trump: ) "And I think you should ask for VP Pence's conversation because he had a couple conversations also."


And under the bus goes Pence.  A diversion?


> "Why is Trump throwing Pence under the bus? Trying to keep him quiet?"


!........


> When Pence substituted for Trump at the last minute on a trip to Poland this month, he had a private meeting with Zelensky.


Pence? So, what did transpire? 


> "As President Trump had me make clear, we have great concerns about issues of corruption," Pence said as part of his lengthy answer.


And of course, Biden just happens to fit in that purview.

So? Will Pence become part of Team Trump in a potential up and coming impeachment?


> Congressional Democrats have not gone after Pence so far. But he's likely to face questions about his interactions with Zelensky.


Yeah buddy 



> If both the president and vice president are removed from office, the House chooses the next president.


OMG! Pelosi. This would surely upset Republicans and the degenerate (  ) socialists running for President under the Democrat banner, alike.


> Some conservative commentators are wondering if Republican lawmakers will turn on Trump and turn to Pence for self-preservation.
> ...........
> "Trump has to go. Pence can be president for 18 mos and agree not to run for re-election (he'd lose anyway). All of them can run for POTUS instead."
> .............
> senators may reach a breaking point "and just decide they'll take their chances with President Pence and an angry base they won't have to face till 2022 or later."


Politics


----------



## Wino

Just read the Kremlin is hoping that Pooty and Donnie's telcon aren't released. No doubt would shed a lot of light on the treason of DJT scumbag king of all time.. Spent couple days in hospital and just home - had access to cable TV as all this crap came down. Glad to be home and no cable. I hope this is the beginning of the end for this despot.


----------



## Johnny b

Hope you recover quickly, Wayne.


----------



## valis

Indeed, hope all is well....


----------



## Johnny b

* Trump's envoy for Ukraine reportedly resigns as scrutiny of his role in Trump-Zelensky scandal grows *

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news...esigns-after-giuliani-revelations/3792075002/

Is this the start of a ....cascade?


----------



## Wino

Let us all hope this is just the beginning to a cascade to drain this horrible swamp created by the orange ogre. His debasement is boundless.


----------



## Johnny b

Agreed!


----------



## Wino

https://www.factcheck.org/2019/09/trump-wrong-on-european-aid-to-ukraine/

Seems L'il Donnie can't ever get his facts straight or just can't help telling bodacious lies spreading untrue propaganda. This belies one of his many excuses for withholding the funds.

Buckle up folks, this is going to be a bumpy ride. Anyone want to guess what magnitude of stupid Turnip will try to get attention off the impeachment process. More stonewalling? crash the market? order the arrest of congress? kill the whistle blower? war, with just any nation that upsets him or doesn't kiss his butt? The options of his ability to screw us all up whist cornered is absolutely frightening. The man is truly deranged and mentally deficient.


----------



## Johnny b

It's still very early with Trump's escapades in the Ukraine and Jeff Flake had this to say:

* Jeff Flake: 'At least 35' GOP senators would vote to remove Trump if vote was private *
https://www.usatoday.com/story/news...-gop-senators-would-impeach-trump/3792866002/



> Former Republican Senator Jeff Flake said that he thinks at least 35 Republican senators would vote for President Donald Trump to be removed from office if they could vote in private.
> .................
> During an interview with NPR, the Arizona Republican elaborated on his comments, continuing that "anybody who has sat through two years, as I have, of Republican luncheons realizes that there's not a lot of love for the president. There's a lot of fear of what it means to go against the president, but most Republican senators would not like to be dealing with this for another year or another five years.
> ....................
> A two-thirds majority, or 67 senators, is needed to convict and remove the accused from office. Republicans currently hold the majority. For the President to be removed from office by the Senate with impeachment, at least 20 Republicans would need to join the Democrats and independents


Fear. It's also what kills a democratic society.
And Trump has even suggested the concept of a President for Life could be a good thing.

* This may be the scariest thing Donald Trump has said as president *
https://www.cnn.com/2018/03/05/politics/donald-trump-xi-jinping-analysis/index.html



> Speaking about China's President Xi Jinping, who led the charge to repeal the country's term limits law last month, Trump said this:
> *"He's now president for life. President for life. No, he's great. And look, he was able to do that. I think it's great. Maybe we'll have to give that a shot some day." *


And now, it appears the only way Trump can avoid the Ukrainian-Biden episode, that could eventually link him to collusion with Russia and treason......is to extend his Presidency by any means, or at least try.

Unless our elected officials in DC stand up for our freedoms and the Constitution, there are dangerous times ahead for the United States of America from within.

Even if Flake is correct about the numbers, it will take more effort than just cowering in the shadows and whispering, to dislodge a tyrant.


----------



## Johnny b

Wino said:


> https://www.factcheck.org/2019/09/trump-wrong-on-european-aid-to-ukraine/
> 
> Seems L'il Donnie can't ever get his facts straight or just can't help telling bodacious lies spreading untrue propaganda. This belies one of his many excuses for withholding the funds.
> 
> Buckle up folks, this is going to be a bumpy ride. Anyone want to guess what magnitude of stupid Turnip will try to get attention off the impeachment process. More stonewalling? crash the market? order the arrest of congress? kill the whistle blower? war, with just any nation that upsets him or doesn't kiss his butt? The options of his ability to screw us all up whist cornered is absolutely frightening. The man is truly deranged and mentally deficient.


Dangerous times indeed.

Stay well Wayne.


----------



## Johnny b

Shadows of the Nixon 'dilemma'? Missing tapes 

It turns out there is or was, an actual recording of Trump's phone call.

* 
What to know about the secret computer system in the White House and the president's calls *
https://www.cbsnews.com/news/white-...puter-system-in-white-house-presidents-calls/

No doubt Nancy is going to want to listen in


----------



## Johnny b

Oh my goodness!

* White House restricted access to Trump's calls with Putin and Saudi crown prince *

https://www.cnn.com/2019/09/27/politics/white-house-restricted-trump-calls-putin-saudi/index.html

Treason, in for a penny, in for a pound......and so it goes.


----------



## Johnny b

* Secretary of State Mike Pompeo was on July call between Trump, Ukraine President Volodymyr Zelenskiy *

https://abcnews.go.com/Politics/sec...peo-july-call-trump-ukraine/story?id=65969608

I'll bet he wishes he'd been out of the Office. 
Maybe he'll get that wish


----------



## Johnny b

The usual suspects:

*Intelligence community watchdog debunks whistleblower conspiracy pushed by Trump and other Republicans *

https://www.cnn.com/2019/09/30/politics/icig-statement-whistleblower-complaint/index.html



> The intelligence community inspector general is forcefully pushing back against assertions made by President Donald Trump and several Republican lawmakers about the whistleblower complaint that has rocked Washington in recent weeks.
> In a rare statement released Monday, the inspector general addressed a false claim pushed by Trump and some of his allies on Capitol Hill, including House GOP leader Kevin McCarthy of California and Sen. Lindsey Graham of South Carolina, that the whistleblower lacked firsthand knowledge of the conduct outlined in the complaint and therefore the allegations were based on "hearsay." But the statement from the inspector general made clear that the whistleblower was not simply communicating secondhand knowledge.


----------



## Johnny b

* Democrats subpoena Trump's personal attorney, Rudy Giuliani, for Ukraine documents *

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news...bpoena-trump-lawyer-rudy-giuliani/3823681002/



> "In addition to this stark admission, you stated more recently that you are in possession of evidence - in the form of text messages, phone records, and other communications - indicating that you were not acting alone and that other Trump Administration officials may have been involved in this scheme," the House committee chairmen wrote on Monday.
> 
> Giuliani and Trump have also pressed Ukrainian officials to prosecute individuals who helped expose Paul Manafort's lucrative lobbying work on behalf of former Ukrainian President Viktor Yanukovych. The revelations about that work led to Manafort's resignation as Trump's 2016 campaign manager, and he is now serving prison time related to those dealings.
> 
> In the Manafort case, Giuliani has accused Ukrainian officials of trying to undermine Trump's 2016 campaign by revealing payments to Manafort from Yanukovych, a pro-Russia politician.


I sense a door opening. To Russian influence in our elections and Trump's involvement.


----------



## storage_man

All I have to say, With no real evidence, I could with the right resources, convict the POPE of wrong doing. That is how solid this investigation is. "You said previously" ? - "It was reported again by an anonymous source, that this is happening" - "The whistle/blower stated that yade yade etc." - "Oh you can't talk to the whistle/blower, because he/it is in fear of its life ?" - + a whole bunch more. This is really sad that a political party was so believing that they had an election in the bag and they lost. They forgot something, Real Americans Voted in 2016 and will vote again in 2020. Does anybody think that the Democrat party has any chance of winning in 2020 ? All one with moderate thinking has to do is look at their Candidates ? They have lost any chance to win, even if the chosen candidate tries to look as a moderate tomorrow ! Real voters know that there isn't any money for Free Stuff for everybody. I'm sure some people believe it, but by then its to late after all of the primaries are done and the one gets selected. Its almost identical to the 2016 campaign, where the media stated that Trump didn't have a chance. But he really out smarted them, he didn't go moderate, he kept the same promises as before the primary. He hid nothing and that is why he will get elected AGAIN. He is not a real politician that lies to you in the primaries, then lies to you during the general election. 

But you can't fix stupid ? Its not what PDJT says, its not what he does, its not what the media says, its what he has already accomplished against unleashed political/media attacks for 3 years, that has allowed him to maintain and add to his support. I personally would of quit that job long ago. It's unbelievable that he has the fortitude to keep moving forward. He has a profound love of this country and what it stands for and knows that if he quits, this country will be over run with socialists with free everything ! I'm everyday just LMAO on how stupid the media and their followers are. They are making the same mistake over and over and over again.



Johnny B - Have as good day. Enjoy the headlines.


----------



## Johnny b

storage_man said:


> All I have to say, With no real evidence, I could with the right resources, convict the POPE of wrong doing. That is how solid this investigation is. "You said previously" ? - "It was reported again by an anonymous source, that this is happening" - "The whistle/blower stated that yade yade etc." - "Oh you can't talk to the whistle/blower, because he/it is in fear of its life ?" - + a whole bunch more. This is really sad that a political party was so believing that they had an election in the bag and they lost. They forgot something, Real Americans Voted in 2016 and will vote again in 2020. Does anybody think that the Democrat party has any chance of winning in 2020 ? All one with moderate thinking has to do is look at their Candidates ? They have lost any chance to win, even if the chosen candidate tries to look as a moderate tomorrow ! Real voters know that there isn't any money for Free Stuff for everybody. I'm sure some people believe it, but by then its to late after all of the primaries are done and the one gets selected. Its almost identical to the 2016 campaign, where the media stated that Trump didn't have a chance. But he really out smarted them, he didn't go moderate, he kept the same promises as before the primary. He hid nothing and that is why he will get elected AGAIN. He is not a real politician that lies to you in the primaries, then lies to you during the general election.
> 
> But you can't fix stupid ? Its not what PDJT says, its not what he does, its not what the media says, its what he has already accomplished against unleashed political/media attacks for 3 (edited out) years, that has allowed him to maintain and add to his support. I personally would of quit that job long ago. It's unbelievable that he has the fortitude to keep moving forward. He has a profound love of this country and what it stands for and knows that if he quits, this country will be over run with socialists with free everything ! I'm everyday just LMAO on how stupid the media and their followers are. They are making the same mistake over and over and over again.
> 
> 
> 
> Johnny B - Have as good day. Enjoy the headlines.





> With no real evidence, I could with the right resources, convict the POPE of wrong doing.


I doubt it, you lost credibility a long time ago.
All you have is denial as a rationale.



> "Oh you can't talk to the whistle/blower, because he/it is in fear of its life ?"


And you have what credentials that affords you that right?
Not even Trump has that right 
But arrangements are being made for him/her to testify before the House. Tough break for you, eh?



> Real Americans Voted in 2016 and will vote again in 2020.


Yes, and they have to be legal, registered to vote citizens.
Pretty much the same as usual.



> Does anybody think that the Democrat party has any chance of winning in 2020 ?


Not if they put a socialist on the ticket.



> Real voters know that there isn't any money for Free Stuff for everybody.


Indeed. Nice to read that you agree with me 



> He is not a real politician that lies to you in the primaries, then lies to you during the general election.


Really? 
LOL! jokes on you. 
There are even video clips of him lying, and lists of proven lies ( Google is your friend, well maybe not in your case )



> But you can't fix stupid ?


Why the question mark? It's pretty obvious.



> Its not what PDJT says, its not what he does, its not what the media says, its what he has already accomplished against unleashed political/media attacks for 3 (edited out) years, that has allowed him to maintain and add to his support.


Remember what I said about your affliction with denial?
Read the latest news. 
Trump is already involved in an impeachment investigation and by his own words in the supplied transcript and simpleton Rudy's public comments, he obviously has serious legal problems that could even open the door again to Russian interference in our 2016 elections and now Trump's collusion since it couldn't legally be addressed in the Mueller report.
Bad times for fascists and the weak of mind.



> I'm everyday just LMAO on how stupid the media and their followers are. They are making the same mistake over and over and over again.


You sound....rather....desperate?
Smile anyway


----------



## Johnny b

storage_man said:


> .................
> 
> But you can't fix stupid ? Its not what PDJT says, its not what he does, its not what the media says, its what he has already accomplished against unleashed political/media attacks for 3 (edited out ) years, that has allowed him to maintain and add to his support. ...................................


Well, yeah to that last part.
He has maintained the support of like minded people and as you posted, you can't fix stupid.

Which I was reminded of while reading this:

* President Trump talked about shooting migrants, using alligators at the border, according new book *
https://www.usatoday.com/story/news...ent-week-donald-trumps-directives/3836341002/



> According to reporting from the New York Times, President Donald Trump had at times privately talked about "fortifying a border wall with a water-filled trench, stocked with snakes or alligators, prompting aides to seek a cost estimate. He wanted the wall electrified, with spikes on top that could pierce human flesh."
> 
> Additionally, after aides told him that his public suggestion of soldiers shooting migrants if they threw rocks was illegal, he backed down. But, he later suggested that they "shoot migrants in the legs to slow them down."
> 
> "That's not allowed either, (staff) told him," according to the excerpt.


* Shoot Them in the Legs, Trump Suggested: Inside His Border War *
https://www.nytimes.com/2019/10/01/us/politics/trump-border-wars.html

Yes, fixing stupid is obviously a trying endeavour.

And about that trade war?
He did accomplish that.
Notice how the stock market growth slowed up, substantially and became volatile?
And guess what , now impeachment of Trump is being looked on as a positive for investors.
* Why a Trump impeachment would be amazing news for the stock market*
https://finance.yahoo.com/news/trum...zing-news-for-the-stock-market-152347888.html

Let me ask you, is ignorance as blissful as claimed?


----------



## Johnny b

Not unexpected:

* Mike Pompeo may be involved in 'blatant cover-up' Democrats charge in new salvo aimed at top diplomat *

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news...ed-blatant-cover-up-democrats-say/3837338002/



> Secretary of State Mike Pompeo has an "obvious conflict of interest" in the Ukraine scandal and will likely be a key witness in the congressional impeachment inquiry, House Democrats said Tuesday.
> .......
> 
> Given Pompeo's potential role, he should "not be making any decisions regarding witness testimony or document production in order to protect himself or the president," the lawmakers said.
> 
> The extraordinary warning - sent to the State Department's deputy secretary of state, John Sullivan - came after a bitter exchange between Pompeo and House Democrats over the scheduled depositions of five State Department officials involved in communications between Rudy Giuliani, Trump's personal lawyer, and Ukrainian government officials.


edit:

* 'I was on the phone call': Pompeo acknowledges he was listening to Trump's phone call with Ukraine president *
https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/politics/2019/10/02/pompeo-admits-he-trumps-phone-call-


Must be kinda hard to deny


----------



## Johnny b

* Donald Trump claims impeachment inquiry against him is a 'coup' designed to 'take away Power of the People' *
https://www.usatoday.com/story/news...eachment-inquiry-coup-against-him/3836622002/



> "As I learn more and more each day, I am coming to the conclusion that what is taking place is not an impeachment, it is a COUP, intended to take away the Power of thePeople, their VOTE, their Freedoms, their Second Amendment, Religion, Military, Border Wall, and their God-given rights as a Citizen of The United States of America!" Trump claimed in a series of tweets.


Whew!
Talk about running scared.
Perhaps he forgot he didn't win the popular vote, not even close.
If he's depending on the 'power of the people', he's not talking about the majority 

That 'stable genius' is looking major-unhinged.


----------



## Johnny b

The Clinton administration made the terms 'Pay to play' a popular trait of Bill and Hillary, and now we have Donald Trump doing the same and it's even included in the impeachment investigations.

* A Trump hotel mystery: Giant reservations followed by empty rooms *
https://www.politico.com/news/2019/10/02/trump-hotel-empty-rooms-016763



> House investigators are looking into an allegation that groups - including at least one foreign government - tried to ingratiate themselves to President Donald Trump by booking rooms at his hotels but never staying in them.
> 
> It's a previously unreported part of a broader examination by the House Oversight Committee, included in the Democrats' impeachment inquiry, into whether Trump broke the law by accepting money from U.S. or foreign governments at his properties.
> 
> Story Continued Below
> 
> "Now we're looking at near raw bribery," said Rep. Gerry Connolly (D-Va.), a House Oversight Committee member who chairs the subcommittee with jurisdiction over Trump's hotel in Washington.


OK. Trump has spent a lifetime in questionable semi legal ( lol! to that! ) business deals, why would anyone expect him to be anything other than a crooked President?
He's been cast negatively in the news ever since using the McCarthy/mob lawyer, Roy Cohn.
https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Roy_Cohn


----------



## Cookiegal

Storage_man,

I've edited your post for language. This is the second offense in a few months and is even worse than the previous one. There is no excuse for it and it's not necessary to get your point across. It has earned you a 24 hour temporary ban. I suggest you think about it before hitting the "post reply" button in the future.


----------



## Johnny b

The Honorable Unhinged One Speaketh:

* 'I don't care.' Trump dismisses GOP concern over protecting whistleblower *
https://www.usatoday.com/story/news...t-care-gop-concerns-whistleblower/2442994001/



> President Donald Trump dismissed concerns Wednesday - including from some GOP lawmakers - about the need to shield a whistleblower at the center of allegations that he pressured Ukraine to dig up dirt on Joe Biden.
> 
> Asked about those concerns, Trump responded: "I don't care."
> 
> .........................
> 
> Trump also renewed his attacks on House Democrats, including Rep. Adam Schiff, D-Calif. and the chair of the House Intelligence Committee. Trump said Schiff couldn't carry Secretary of State Mike Pompeo's "blank strap," apparently a reference to a "jockstrap."



Shocking, just shocking I tell you! lol!


----------



## Johnny b

An argument that the Republican party has become the party of collusion:

* The Party of Collusion *
https://slate.com/news-and-politics/2019/10/republican-party-collusion.html



> It's true that the chairman of the Judiciary Committee sees nothing wrong with the conversation. Nor do the chairmen of the committees on Homeland Security and Foreign Relations. But that doesn't mean the conversation was perfect. It means that the Republican Party no longer believes it's wrong to enlist the help of foreign governments to win an election. It has become the party of collusion.


----------



## Johnny b

Another whistle blower, a different concern:

* Another whistleblower has come forward, this time alleging 'inappropriate efforts' to influence Trump's tax audit *

https://www.businessinsider.com/whi...priate-action-over-trump-taxe-returns-2019-10



> Another whistleblower complaint has been lodged, this one alleging "inappropriate efforts to influence" the mandatory IRS audit of President Donald Trump's and Vice President Mike Pence's tax returns.


This concerns an audit, not the release of tax returns.

* Rep. Neal: Ways And Means Committee Wants To Speak To Trump Tax Whistleblower *

https://www.wbur.org/news/2019/10/01/richard-neal-irs-audit-trump-taxes-whistleblower



> Massachusetts U.S. Rep. Richard Neal said the House Ways and Means Committee is looking to interview a whistleblower who alleges "inappropriate attempts to influence" a tax audit of President Trump.
> 
> In an Aug. 8 letter to Treasury Secretary Steven Mnuchin, Neal, a Democrat, said the Ways and Means Committee he chairs received an "unsolicited communication" from a federal employee in late July.


What was that quip about 'draining the swamp' all about?


----------



## Johnny b

* The most worrying new survey for Trump has nothing to do with his polling *
https://www.vox.com/2019/10/2/20893767/manufacturing-contracting-trump-trade-war



> The manufacturing sector is contracting and analysts are blaming Trump's trade war.
> .....................
> 
> The latest numbers from the Institute for Supply Management's (ISM) closely monitored survey of the country's manufacturing firms (the Purchasing Managers' Index, or PMI) shows not only that manufacturing activity has contracted for two consecutive months, but that August was the lowest point for the sector since June 2009 - a time in which the economy was mired in the Great Recession.
> 
> "We have now tariffed our way into a manufacturing recession in the US and globally," Peter Boockvar, chief investment officer at Bleakley Advisory Group, told CNBC, alluding to Trump's tariff-heavy trade policy.
> 
> "There is no end in sight to this slowdown, the recession risk is real," added Torsten Slok, chief economist at Deutsche Bank, in a note about the ISM numbers quoted in CNBC's piece.
> 
> In another bad omen, following the release of the ISM number the Dow fell by nearly 300 points on Tuesday.


The Dow fell almost 500 points today, Wednesday.


----------



## Johnny b

Looks like Trump is reverting to his golden era of 'mob lawyer' Cohn litigation.
Sue anybody and everybody that displeases Trump. Then it was business, now it's politics. And business combined.

This could also be labeled, Unhinged The Movie.
No doubt screen writers are paying attention.

* 'Did you hear me?' Furious Donald Trump blasts media over Ukraine, impeachment inquiry *
https://www.usatoday.com/story/news...peachment-ukraine-news-conference/3846655002/



> President Donald Trump threatened to file a "major" lawsuit against his opponents, repeatedly blasted the media as "corrupt" and reached for a barnyard epithet to describe the ongoing impeachment inquiry over his interactions with Ukraine.
> 
> He did all of it within a few dizzying hours at the White House.
> ....................
> 
> "I probably will be bringing a lot of litigation against a lot of people," Trump said, falling back on the legal threats he often used in business. "The whole thing is a scam."











*(^^President Donald Trump speaks during a meeting with Finnish President Sauli Niinisto in the Oval Office of the White House, Wednesday, Oct. 2, 2019. (Photo: Evan Vucci, AP)*


> As the term "TrumpMeltdown" trended on social media, photo agencies moved pictures of an angry-looking Trump with a reddened face.


IMO, Trump's antics have long ago exited the realm of 'dark humor' and he's become a hazard to our society, our safety. A loose canon whose only concerns are retaining his power at any cost. 
Not the imagery of a 'stable genius' at all.


----------



## Wino

The continuing debasement of America by it's own president. I guess thru impeachment or election we will find out just how gullible the electorate is should this scourge remain in office.


----------



## Johnny b

I suspect the biggest hurdle to impeachment is Moscow Mitch 
He has to accept that there would be a Trial in the Senate.
But accepting the responsibility to judge and debating the evidence could be two separate things.
Moscow Mitch hasn't exactly been friendly of the idea of the Russian influence being removed from our elections.

Op ed:
* Mitch McConnell is a Russian asset *
https://www.washingtonpost.com/opin...cf3510-afbc-11e9-a0c9-6d2d7818f3da_story.html

* Why is Mitch McConnell blocking election security bills? Good question. *
https://www.washingtonpost.com/poli...ocking-election-security-bills-good-question/

* McConnell called 'Moscow Mitch' for blocking election security bills *
https://www.courier-journal.com/sto...ough-derides-senator-moscow-mitch/1835931001/

And in response Trump claims the opposite.....exposing Moscow Mitch for refusing to consider election security bills makes the news media Russian Assets.
I've got to wonder about the intelligence of those that believe Trump.

* Democracy Dies in Darkness
Politics
Trump, defending McConnell, claims The Washington Post is a 'Russian asset' *
https://www.washingtonpost.com/poli...498048-b2d5-11e9-8f6c-7828e68cb15f_story.html


> "The Washington Post called Mitch McConnell what?" Trump asked. "I think The Washington Post is a Russian asset by comparison."






Wino said:


> The continuing debasement of America by it's own president. I guess thru impeachment or election we will find out just how gullible the electorate is should this scourge remain in office.


Indeed.


----------



## Johnny b

As if requesting the Ukraine to investigate Biden wasn't enough to get Trump in how water, now he's suggesting China do likewise.

* Impeachment pressure: Trump says China should investigate Joe Biden, family *
https://www.usatoday.com/story/news...stigate-democrat-joe-biden-family/3850191002/



> President Donald Trump is seeking to shift the nation's attention to health care Thursday, but likely gave critics a new target to attack him by calling on China to investigate Joe Biden.
> 
> "China should start an investigation into the Bidens," Trump said.
> 
> Asked if he had requested President Xi Jinping of China to help investigate the Biden family, Trump said: "I haven't but clearly it's something we should start thinking about."
> 
> "I think Biden is going down," Trump said.


It's hard to make this stuff up............
I wonder if any of that was advice from Rudy?

From the same article, this image:










My gosh, look how small his hands are in un-retouched photos!


----------



## Johnny b

Sometimes the most interesting news comes from the least expected sources.

And it's Fox News ( really, no joke )

* Former Clinton spokesman claims White House headed for 'disaster' due to Trump-Pence 'split' *

https://www.foxnews.com/media/trump-pence-white-house-impeachment-disaster



> Internal divisions within the White House are straining staff and should be considered a sign of an "impending disaster," as House Democrats prepare to launch an all-out impeachment effort against President Trump, says Joe Lockhart, a former press secretary for the Clinton administration.
> 
> "[Pence's] aides were putting out yesterday that he had nothing to do with [the Ukraine call]. He didn't know anything about it. He wasn't aware of anything.
> 
> And then the president's aides put out that, not only was his guy on the call, he had the transcript within 24 hours -- and he was given the briefing when he did go over to Poland as part of the mission to meet with Ukraine's president," Lockhart continued.
> 
> "I think the Pence people tried to put out a line that insulated him, and the Trump White House sent a message saying if I'm going down, you're coming down with me," he said.


Interesting.

https://www.apnews.com/be80f14dabc64e41bc847d585ef352b5


> Pence, according to aides, did not listen in on that call.


https://www.washingtonpost.com/worl...3aa9e2-e4a7-11e9-b403-f738899982d2_story.html


> Officials close to Pence insist that he was unaware of Trump's efforts to press Zelensky for damaging information about Biden and his son, who had served on the board of an obscure Ukrainian gas company, when his father was overseeing U.S. policy on Ukraine.


....................

https://www.politico.com/story/2019/09/25/trump-pence-ukraine-phone-calls-1512771


> President Donald Trump said on Wednesday that reporters should ask Mike Pence to release details of his conversations with Ukraine, seemingly drawing his vice president into the scandal that has engulfed the administration.
> 
> "I think you should ask for Vice President Pence's conversation, because he had a couple of conversations also," Trump said at a news conference on the sidelines of the United Nations General Assembly in New York. "I could save you a lot of time. They were all perfect. Nothing was mentioned of any import other than congratulations."


Somebody can't get their story straight


----------



## Johnny b

This is an opinion piece but makes a credible argument for Trump committing treason.

* Donald Trump is much worse than Richard Nixon. He may even have committed treason. *

https://www.usatoday.com/story/opin...es-richard-nixon-look-good-column/3842953002/

Since Trump's impeachment investigation has begun, no doubt lists of the ways he's damaged our society will be forthcoming.


----------



## Johnny b

About that transcript.

* Odd markings, ellipses fuel doubts about the rough transcript of Trump's Ukraine call *

https://www.washingtonpost.com/tech...s-about-rough-transcript-trumps-ukraine-call/



> "This is an exact word-for-word transcript of the conversation, taken by very talented stenographers," Trump said.


Apparently up to half the content was edited out.



> That suggests that the rough transcript of the Zelensky call includes about half the number of words that would be expected if the call had proceeded at the same or similar pace as the previous calls.


And yet, Trump looks guilty.

I wonder if the Ukrainians taped Trump from their side of the conversation?


----------



## Johnny b

Fox News....again!
Perhaps they see the inevitable writing on the wall?

* Judge Andrew Napolitano: Trump's call with Ukraine president manifests criminal and impeachable behavior *
https://www.foxnews.com/opinion/jud...1xu-CtrpxKr99O8M47FMdtjsSzSh0PYAIhix3k24Boj3M



> For heaven's sake, Trump was just investigated by Mueller for two-and-a-half tumultuous years for allegedly bringing the Russian government into the 2016 election and now he has attempted in one phone call to bring the Ukrainian government into the 2020 election! Does he understand the laws he has sworn to uphold?
> 
> It was to remedy just such reckless, constitutionally destructive behavior that impeachment was intended.


IMO, it's worth reading the whole article.

Donald, you have a problem


----------



## Johnny b

A bit of repetition, but reads like a crime novel where everyone knows who the criminal is from the first sentence.
This is the stuff of tv movies.

* Trump publicly urges China to investigate Bidens amid impeachment inquiry *

https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/20...gate-bidens-amid-impeachment-inquiry-n1061956

I suspect few took him seriously here:

* 'I think I'd take it': Trump says he'd accept dirt on an opponent from a foreign government *
https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/donald-trump/i-think-i-d-take-it-trump-says-he-d-n1017031



> "It's not an interference, they have information," Trump said. "I think I'd take it. If I thought there was something wrong, I'd go maybe to the FBI."
> 
> Stephanopoulos then pointed out that FBI Director Christopher Wray said his agency should know about contacts from foreign governments.
> 
> "The FBI director is wrong," Trump said.


Well. he didn't go to the FBI. And now he's been caught dealing inappropriately ( criminally ) with foreign governments.
One of them, China, publicly, while an impeachment investigation is going on for the same reason concerning the Ukraine.

The arrogance and stupidity of Trump is astounding.


----------



## Wino

Johnny b said:


> ..............................................................The arrogance and stupidity of Trump is astounding.


While his arrogance and stupidity is astounding, it is not unexpected from this mouth breathing knuckle dragging xenomorph.


----------



## Johnny b

Another day, more evidence to consider.

* Ukraine: Text messages show U.S. diplomats believed U.S. aid was linked to Trump's demand for Biden probe *
https://www.usatoday.com/story/news...rt-volker-trumps-ex-envoy-ukraine/3851356002/

It's a long article.
Too much to copy and paste all the important aspects so reading it all is necessary.

Briefly:


> At the behest of President Trump and his personal lawyer, U.S. diplomats engaged in a frenetic, months-long effort to push Ukraine's newly elected president to publicly promise he would order an investigation into Joe Biden's son and also probe a conspiracy theory about Ukraine's alleged role in the 2016 U.S. election.
> 
> In exchange, the diplomats believed, Trump would reward Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelensky with a highly sought-after meeting with Trump at the White House and the release of nearly $400 million in U.S. military aid that Trump had put on hold.


What the article shows is that corruption is deep within the Trump administration and many kept silent about it.

One brave soul essentially said, enough is enough, look at 'this'.

As a result, we now have mad dogs like Jordan barking in denial.

Reminds me of a cartoon I posted recently:


----------



## Johnny b

What happens when a diplomat doesn't 'play ball' with a corrupt president?

* Trump Ordered Ukraine Ambassador Removed After Complaints From Giuliani, Others *

https://www.wsj.com/articles/trump-...r-complaints-from-giuliani-others-11570137147



> Marie Yovanovitch dismissed after Trump allies said she was blocking Biden probe and bad-mouthing president, people familiar with the matter say
> 
> President Trump ordered the removal of the ambassador to Ukraine after months of complaints from allies outside the administration, including his personal lawyer Rudy Giuliani, that she was undermining him abroad and obstructing efforts to persuade Kyiv to investigate former Vice President Joe Biden, according to people familiar with the matter.


----------



## Johnny b

* Trump to tell Pelosi that White House won't cooperate on impeachment until the full House votes *

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news...tion-impeachment-until-house-vote/3862599002/



> President Donald Trump and aides plan to tell House Speaker Nancy Pelosi that they will not cooperate with the ongoing impeachment inquiry until the full House votes to authorize it, officials said Friday.
> 
> Democrats have said that Trump's refusal to answer subpoenas and provide documents could constitute an impeachable offense in and of itself as they investigate the president's dealings with Ukraine.


That would be one way Trump could avoid lying to Congress under oath.


----------



## Johnny b

Since the current topic involves Biden and the Ukraine, it's appropriate to post this, here:

* Ukraine to review investigation of company tied to Hunter Biden *

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news...-probe-tied-joe-bidens-son-hunter/3862796002/



> Ruslan Ryaboshapka, Ukraine's general prosecutor, said during a press conference that the review is part of a wider audit of at least 15 high-profile past investigations that were closed or dismissed by his predecessors.


Either way, it will be interesting


----------



## Johnny b

This is ominous.

* McConnell signaling Trump trial to be quick, if it happens *
https://thehill.com/homenews/senate/464307-mcconnell-signaling-trump-trial-to-be-quick-if-it-happens



> "They spent the last three years harassing this president and I gather we're going to get another chapter of that with the impeachment episode. But we need to find other things that actually make a difference for the American people and accomplish as much as we can," he said.


The investigation into Trump has only just begun in it's early stages of fact finding and Moscow Mitch seems to have already made a rush to judgment in favor of Trump. It's harassment. 

This dissension is exactly what the Russians wanted and why they interfered in our election process.


----------



## Johnny b

In a cynical society, this is what morality and ethics have become.

Moscow Mitch is using his position of prematurely finding Trump innocent with out any consideration of evidence.......as a means to fund his re-election as a Senator in a State that's been pro-Trump.

* McConnell fundraises off impeachment, says effort will fail 'with me as majority leader' *
https://www.usatoday.com/story/news...gn-ad-says-trump-impeachment-fail/3881997002/



> "All of you know your Constitution. The way that impeachment stops is a Senate majority with me as majority leader.
> 
> "But I need your help," he adds, standing in front of a picture of an elephant. "Please contribute before the deadline."


One of his ads:


> "Your conservative Senate Majority is the ONLY thing stopping Nancy Pelosi from impeaching President Trump. Donate & help us keep it!" one caption reads.


Moscow Mitch has gone from rejecting legislation to prevent Russian and outside interference in our elections to claiming he will uphold the power of a President no matter what the evidence shows.

If Trump was innocent of the current allegations, there would be no need to ignore the findings of an investigation as Moscow Mitch implies.

McConnell does appear to be a asset of something other than the US.
Perhaps he's almost as afraid of exposure as Trump.


----------



## Johnny b

Something to watch for:

* A second whistleblower on Trump and Ukraine might be coming forward *
https://www.vox.com/2019/10/5/20900088/trump-ukraine-impeachment-second-whistleblower



> A second whistleblower is now considering filing a complaint about President Donald Trump's conduct regarding Ukraine, the New York Times reported Friday.
> 
> This whistleblower has "more direct information about the events than the first whistle-blower," according to the Times. It's a claim that, if true, could bolster the credibility of the initial complaint that triggered the Democrats' impeachment inquiry into whether Trump solicited election interference from Ukraine.


----------



## Johnny b

The 'Hero' backpedals.

* Giuliani plays down role in proposed Ukraine statement on corruption *
https://www.reuters.com/article/us-...ukraine-statement-on-corruption-idUSKCN1WK0LE

Sooner or later I expect Rudy to claim he had nothing to with anything.
Just an innocent bystander.


----------



## Johnny b

Looks like that second whistle blower concerning Trump's call to the Ukraine will be coming forward.

* Second whistleblower on Trump-Ukraine call, reportedly with firsthand knowledge, to come forward *
https://www.usatoday.com/story/news...p-ukraine-whistleblower-announced/3890189002/



> A second whistleblower "in connection to" the call between President Donald Trump and Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelensky, will be coming forward, according to that person's attorney.
> 
> "I can confirm that my firm and my team represent multiple whistleblowers in connection to the underlying August 12, 2019, disclosure to the Intelligence Community Inspector General," tweeted attorney Andrew Bajak, whose firm Compass Rose is also representing the first whistleblower.
> ...........
> 
> ABC News reported that the second whistleblower, "described as an intelligence official - has first-hand knowledge of some of the allegations outlined in the original complaint."


____________________

https://abcnews.go.com/Politics/2nd-whistleblower-forward-speaking-ig-attorney/story?id=66092396


> Zaid tells ABC News' Chief Anchor George Stephanopoulos that the second person -- also described as an intelligence official -- has first-hand knowledge of some of the allegations outlined in the original complaint and has been interviewed by the head of the intelligence community's internal watchdog office, Michael Atkinson.
> 
> The existence of a second whistleblower -- particularly one who can speak directly about events involving the president related to conversations involving Ukraine -- could undercut Trump's repeated insistence that the original complaint, released on Sept. 26, was "totally inaccurate."


I wonder what Moscow Mitch has to say if the above turns out to be accurate?


----------



## Johnny b

And about Lindsey Graham.
Ardent if not irrational supporter of Donald Trump.
But he wasn't always like this.

Back in 2016:









and that was the least of his opposition to Trump:









So what happened with Graham?
He's now leading that charge to destruction he warned would come if Trump was elected.

Who owns Graham?


----------



## Johnny b

The Trump/Ukraine scenario gets a lot more complicated.

* AP sources: Trump allies sought changes at Ukraine utility *
https://apnews.com/d7440cffba4940f5...n=SocialFlow&utm_medium=AP&utm_source=Twitter

A long read, too much to copy and paste but shows how involved Trump and his minions were in the Ukraine. It was more than just ruining Biden as a potential candidate.
There was profiteering to be had.

Briefly:


> As Rudy Giuliani was pushing Ukrainian officials last spring to investigate one of Donald Trump's main political rivals, a group of individuals with ties to the president and his personal lawyer were also active in the former Soviet republic.
> 
> Their aims were profit, not politics. This circle of businessmen and Republican donors touted connections to Giuliani and Trump while trying to install new management at the top of Ukraine's massive state gas company. Their plan was to then steer lucrative contracts to companies controlled by Trump allies, according to two people with knowledge of their plans.


----------



## Johnny b

Now Trump wants to impeach Pelosi and Schiff 

* Donald Trump now accuses Nancy Pelosi of 'treason' (and wants to impeach her) *
https://www.usatoday.com/story/news...-out-pelosi-and-wants-impeach-her/3896006002/



> Members of Congress cannot be impeached. Impeachment is a tool that Congress uses to investigate judges or executive branch officials they believe may have committed crimes.


Talk about desperate.

tic toc, Donald


----------



## Johnny b

Oh my!

Is Lindsey changing sides..........again?

* 'A stain on America's honor': Lindsey Graham says Trump's Syria pullout abandons Kurds, helps ISIS *
https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/world/2019/10/07/trump-defends-syria-withdrawal/3896039002/

I wonder.
As a Senator, does Graham think the future of the Kurds is more important than the future of the US?
Or is this an excuse to back away from Trump .......with his Ukrainian problems?


----------



## Johnny b

From 'a very stable genius' to 'I, in my great and unmatched wisdom'. 

* On Syria, Donald Trump cites 'my great and unmatched wisdom' - others say no way *
https://www.usatoday.com/story/news...rump-unmatched-wisdom-syria-tweet/3898498002/



> "If Turkey does anything that I, in my great and unmatched wisdom, consider to be off limits, I will totally destroy and obliterate the Economy of Turkey (I've done before!)."
> 
> Trump's critics condemned his self-assertion, saying it sounded like something the Wizard of Oz might say.


*"my great and unmatched wisdom"*
Trump just designated himself more intelligent than anyone else in the US.
I wonder if Trump still has thoughts of being President for Life?


----------



## SeanLaurence

Johnny b said:


> This is an opinion piece but makes a credible argument for Trump committing treason.
> 
> * Donald Trump is much worse than Richard Nixon. He may even have committed treason. *
> 
> https://www.usatoday.com/story/opin...es-richard-nixon-look-good-column/3842953002/
> 
> Since Trump's impeachment investigation has begun, no doubt lists of the ways he's damaged our society will be forthcoming.


Except that is impossible: nobody can currently commit treason because the USA has not declared war.

"enemies are defined very precisely under American treason law. An enemy is a nation or an organization with which the United States is in a declared or open war . Nations with whom we are formally at peace, such as Russia, are not enemies. (Indeed, a treason prosecution naming Russia as an enemy would be tantamount to a declaration of war.) Russia is a strategic adversary whose interests are frequently at odds with those of the United States, but for purposes of treason law it is no different than Canada or France or even the American Red Cross"

https://www.washingtonpost.com/opin...9eb3a8-f460-11e6-a9b0-ecee7ce475fc_story.html


----------



## Johnny b

SeanLaurence said:


> Except that is impossible: nobody can currently commit treason because the USA has not declared war.
> ....................................


Except that a declared war is not the only factor:

US Constitution
https://constitutionus.com/

Article 3 Section 3


> 1: Treason against the United States, shall consist only in levying War against them, or in adhering to their Enemies, giving them Aid and Comfort. No Person shall be convicted of Treason unless on the Testimony of two Witnesses to the same overt Act, or on Confession in open Court.
> 
> 2: The Congress shall have Power to declare the Punishment of Treason, but no Attainder of Treason shall work Corruption of Blood, or Forfeiture except during the Life of the Person attainted.


* Treason against the United States, shall consist only in levying War against them, or in adhering to their Enemies, giving them Aid and Comfort. *

The US has many enemies around the world.
Russia is one of them.

So, as you see, a declaration of war is not a necessity.
Even giving aid to a terrorist group (edit:any group) that advances hostilities on the US would be treason.

In addition to the US Constitution, most States also have treason laws.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treason_laws_in_the_United_States


----------



## Johnny b

SeanLaurence said:


> Except that is impossible: nobody can currently commit treason because the USA has not declared war.
> 
> "enemies are defined very precisely under American treason law. An enemy is a nation or an organization with which the United States is in a declared or open war . Nations with whom we are formally at peace, such as Russia, are not enemies. (Indeed, a treason prosecution naming Russia as an enemy would be tantamount to a declaration of war.) Russia is a strategic adversary whose interests are frequently at odds with those of the United States, but for purposes of treason law it is no different than Canada or France or even the American Red Cross"
> 
> https://www.washingtonpost.com/opin...9eb3a8-f460-11e6-a9b0-ecee7ce475fc_story.html


By the way, that's an opinion piece.

Did you bother to read it all?

This stood out:


> Indeed, Trump could give the U.S. nuclear codes to Vladimir Putin or bug the Oval Office with a direct line to the Kremlin and it would not be treason, as a legal matter.


The first I suspect would be interpreted as treason given the current events of intensive Russian influence in our elections and Russia having begun an era of expansion.

And Larson waffles:


> Of course, such conduct would violate various laws and would constitute grounds for impeachment as a "high crime and misdemeanor" - the framers fully understood that there could be cases of reprehensible disloyalty that might escape the narrow confines of the treason clause.


(ie, sometimes it's more expedient to remove a player on less controversial grounds )

And this:


> But enemies are defined very precisely under American treason law. An enemy is a nation or an organization with which the United States is in a declared or open war .


OK....American treason law

CHAPTER 115-TREASON, SEDITION, AND SUBVERSIVE ACTIVITIES
https://uscode.house.gov/view.xhtml?path=/[email protected]/part1/chapter115&edition=prelim



> §2381. Treason
> 
> Whoever, owing allegiance to the United States, levies war against them or adheres to their enemies, giving them aid and comfort within the United States or elsewhere, is guilty of treason and shall suffer death, or shall be imprisoned not less than five years and fined under this title but not less than $10,000; and shall be incapable of holding any office under the United States.


I see definitions of other crimes but nothing on the definition of 'enemy'.

Doing a search for the legal definition:

https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/50/2204
50 U.S. Code § 2204. Definitions 


> (2) the term "enemy" means any country, government, group, or person that has been engaged in hostilities, whether or not lawfully authorized, with the United States;
> (3) the term "person" means-
> (A) any natural person;
> (B) any corporation, partnership, or other legal entity; and
> (C) any organization, association, or group;


And that logically would include the subjugation of our electoral processes under Russian influence, a hostile adversary.

There is no mention of 'open war' or 'declared war'.



> Russia is a strategic adversary whose interests are frequently at odds with those of the United States, but for purposes of treason law it is no different than Canada or France or even the American Red Cross.


Sophistry.
Neither Canada, France nor the American Red Cross seeks to trivialize the power and positive influence of the US by intentionally weakening it for their own gain, by damaging our ethics, moral values and infrastructure.


----------



## Johnny b

If anyone is interested in what 'giving aid and comfort to an enemy' means, here's a link, showing the evolution of the concept as to law.
It's very long. And imo, also very interesting.

https://www.jstor.org/stable/787437?seq=1#metadata_info_tab_contents
( From the Yale Law Journal )


----------



## Johnny b

* Trump bars Gordon Sondland, key player in Ukraine controversy, from testifying in impeachment investigation *
https://www.usatoday.com/story/news...er-ukraine-controversy-testifying/3906183002/



> Gordon Sondland, President Donald Trump's ambassador to the European Union, was scheduled to appear before a trio of committees Tuesday morning to answer questions about his role in pushing Ukraine's president to open investigations aimed at former Vice President Joe Biden.
> 
> But the State Department directed him not to cooperate with the probe, according to Sondland's attorney, Robert Luskin.
> 
> "Early this morning, the U.S. Department of State directed Ambassador Gordon Sondland not to appear today for his scheduled transcribed interview before the U.S. House of Representatives Joint Committee," Luskin said.


I suspect there are many through out government service that Trump doesn't want the House investigation to question


----------



## Johnny b

With a trend of GOPers backing away from Trump over his Syrian extraction,
well....there goes the fundamentalist crowd, too.

Maybe the timing is right to back away from the loser?

* Pat Robertson: Trump could risk 'losing the mandate of heaven' with Syria decision *
https://www.usatoday.com/story/news...andate-heaven-over-syria-decision/3903941002/

Of course, that won't help the Democrats so much as it could hurt Trump in the Primaries.


----------



## Johnny b

* For Trump, Syria Pullout Is a Win. Putin May See It That Way Too *
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/arti...ullout-is-a-win-putin-may-see-it-that-way-too

Why does the topic of Putin keep coming up in association with Trump, who helped him get elected, you might ask?



> President Donald Trump said his decision to shift U.S. troops out of the path of a threatened Turkish military incursion in Syria will be regretted most by Russia and China. They "love to see us bogged down" in expensive military quagmires, he tweeted on Monday.
> 
> To some Russian and U.S. analysts and officials, however, Moscow is likely to be a major beneficiary of the move.
> 
> What's more, with Syria's Kurds no longer protected by the U.S., Russia will face less resistance as it tries to secure its main goal there -- a political settlement that returns the entire country to the control of President Bashar al-Assad. Having swayed the course of the Syrian conflict, Russia is now in the throes of a return to its Cold War days as a power in the Middle East.


Hmmm? Trump is handing the Middle East over to the Russians.
Payback is a wince, just ask Johnson


----------



## SeanLaurence

storage_man said:


> All I have to say, With no real evidence, I could with the right resources, convict the POPE of wrong doing. That is how solid this investigation is.


You are right - you don't have any evidence to back up your claim. I doubt that YOU could convict anybody of anything.



> "You said previously" ? - "It was reported again by an anonymous source, that this is happening" - "The whistle/blower stated that yade yade etc." - "Oh you can't talk to the whistle/blower, because he/it is in fear of its life ?" - + a whole bunch more.


Have you ever heard of an anonymous tip? Same thing. The Whistleblower's role is to notify authorities of wrongdoing. It is up to congress to investigate the allegations.



> This is really sad that a political party was so believing that they had an election in the bag and they lost.


Yes, I can only speculate that many democrats stayed home because they felt that Hillary had it in the bag against Trump,



> They forgot something, Real Americans Voted in 2016 and will vote again in 2020.


"Estimates show more than 58 percent of eligible voters went to the polls during the 2016 election" Kinda low turnout if you ask me. And more of them voted Democrat than voted Republicam



> Does anybody think that the Democrat party has any chance of winning in 2020 ? All one with moderate thinking has to do is look at their Candidates ?


An improvement over the sorry bunch of losers the Republicans fielded in 2016.



> They have lost any chance to win, even if the chosen candidate tries to look as a moderate tomorrow !


We will see



> Real voters know that there isn't any money for Free Stuff for everybody.


Because Republicans already spent it all on their wealthy friends.



> I'm sure some people believe it, but by then its to late after all of the primaries are done and the one gets selected. Its almost identical to the 2016 campaign, where the media stated that Trump didn't have a chance. But he really out smarted them, he didn't go moderate, he kept the same promises as before the primary.


Like releasing his tax returns? 
Repealing the alternative minimum tax`?
Eliminating the carried interest loophole?
Balance the federal budget 'fairly quickly'?
Repeal and replace "Obamacare.?

He hid nothing and that is why he will get elected AGAIN.
He is not a real politician that lies to you in the primaries, then lies to you during the general election. 


> He lies about everything





> But you can't fix stupid ? Its not what PDJT says, its not what he does, its not what the media says, its what he has already accomplished against unleashed political/media attacks for 3 years, that has allowed him to maintain and add to his support.


538 has him underwater for his entire presidency. 53% disapproval today is not as bad as the 57% disapproval when he caused the government to shut down.
https://projects.fivethirtyeight.com/trump-approval-ratings/



> I personally would of quit that job long ago. It's unbelievable that he has the fortitude to keep moving forward.


Yes, you do strike me as a quitter.



> He has a profound love of this country and what it stands for and knows that if he quits, this country will be over run with socialists with free everything !


Does he? I think that he think that you are a bunch of chumps.



> I'm everyday just LMAO on how stupid the media and their followers are. They are making the same mistake over and over and over again.


Which media are you talking about? Surely you are getting your information from some form of media? Or are you a Washington insider?
Or are you getting your information on whats going on from Facebook. Because that is such a bastion of truth.



Johnny B - Have as good day. Enjoy the headlines.[/QUOTE]


----------



## Johnny b

The whistle blower's memo can be read here:

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/the-wh...mp-ukraine-call-described-cbs-news-exclusive/


----------



## Johnny b

New Fox News poll:


----------



## Johnny b

* Two Giuliani associates involved in Trump-Ukraine controversy arrested on campaign finance charges *

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news...v-parnas-igor-fruman-witness-list/3866159002/



> WASHINGTON - Two Ukrainian-born business partners, who showered Republican campaign committees with nearly $500,000 and dined with President Donald Trump at the White House, were arrested late Wednesday on campaign finance charges, federal authorities said Thursday.
> 
> Lev Parnas and Igor Fruman helped Rudy Giuliani meet a Ukrainian prosecutor as the president's personal lawyer pushed for an investigation into Trump's political rival Joe Biden. Both of the men also are among the prospective witnesses House Democrats want to question in their impeachment inquiry.
> 
> The indictment charges Parnas, Fruman, David Correia and Andrey Kukushkin with federal campaign finance law violations.


I am Shocked! Just shocked I tell you.


----------



## 2twenty2




----------



## Johnny b

And here we go again with someone else implicated in the Ukrainian conspiracy, that has ties to the President's personal lawyer, Giuliani and his arrested Ukrainian/Russian associates:

* Arrest of Giuliani associates ensnares 'Congressman 1' *
https://www.apnews.com/bd7b2b04b101440e9a5559b9501e24b4



> Businessmen with ties to Rudy Giuliani lobbied a U.S. congressman in 2018 for help ousting the American ambassador to Ukraine around the same time they committed to raising money for the lawmaker.
> 
> An indictment unsealed Thursday identified the lawmaker only as "Congressman 1." But the donations described in the indictment match campaign finance reports for former Rep. Pete Sessions, a Texas Republican who lost his re-election bid in November 2018.
> 
> Sessions, 64, has denied wrongdoing. But the federal indictment alleges "Congressman 1" was part of what prosecutors described as a coordinated effort to remove Ambassador Marie Yovanovitch at the behest of an unnamed Ukrainian official.


Looks like the Impeachment Inquiry is beginning to 'connect the dots' that will be Trump's legacy in the history books.

There are reports of more whistle blowers in the wings, so that will likely be not just conformation of what has been presented so far, but potentially more and new leads to follow up on.


----------



## Wino

"Trickle Down" criminality to go with orange ogre's likewise economy.


----------



## Johnny b

The arrested Ukrainian ( for illegal campaign contributions ) that Trump claims he doesn't know ( like we haven't heard that before  )

* Indicted Giuliani associate attended private '16 election night party for 'friend' Trump *
https://www.politico.com/news/2019/10/11/lev-parnas-giuliani-trump-private-party-044698



> Donald Trump tried to distance himself from the latest scandal that threatens his presidency on Thursday by saying he didn't know either of the foreign-born Rudy Giuliani associates that his own Justice Department had just indicted for alleged campaign finance violations.
> 
> But that's not what one of the men said three years ago - while attending Trump's invite-only 2016 election night party in New York.
> .....................
> 
> The new detail connecting Trump and Parnas at the same election night party in November 2016 raises fresh questions about the president's insistence that he doesn't know the Ukrainian-born businessman.





















Who's grinning now!  ....


----------



## Johnny b

Wino said:


> "Trickle Down" criminality to go with orange ogre's likewise economy.


I suspect there is a wide circle of Trumpers nervously awaiting subpoenas.


----------



## Johnny b

Trump is threatening to sue Pelosi and Schiff for carrying out their constitutional duties:

* Trump threatens to sue top Democrats Adam Schiff and Nancy Pelosi amid impeachment inquiry *
https://www.cnn.com/2019/10/12/politics/trump-threatens-sue-schiff-pelosi/index.html



> President Donald Trump threatened on Saturday night to sue top congressional Democrats Rep. Adam Schiff and House Speaker Nancy Pelosi amid the House impeachment inquiry into the President.
> Trump, who has a long track record of calling for lawsuits against his critics and not following through, said, "We're going to take a look at it. We're going after these people. These are bad, bad people." The President was speaking at the Values Voter Summit in Washington, DC.





> Trump said he spoke to his lawyers about Schiff and told them, "Sue him anyway, even if we lose, the American public will understand."


I already understand.
Trump is desperate


----------



## Johnny b

It appears Trump had met with Parnas years before being elected President.
At least as long ago as March 8, 2014 when this photo was posted on Facebook:
https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=10151956466308045&set=a.181438183044&type=3&theater










https://www.politico.com/news/2019/10/12/trump-lev-parnas-photo-giuliani-045137


> A photograph of President Donald Trump posing with a recently indicted associate of Rudy Giuliani was posted online in March 2014, two years prior to what had been their first known interaction.
> ........................
> It was posted on March 8, 2014, on the Facebook account of Shawn Jaros, also known as Shawn Jarosovich. Jaros posted the photo again on April 2 with the caption, "the big homies!!!!!!!!!!! for real tho" and then commented on the photo, "salute lev im coming brother!!!!!!!!!"


I suspect there's more to come of this


----------



## Johnny b

The mentality of Trumpism: A call to violence.

* New York Times: Fake video of Trump shooting media and critics played at his resort *
https://www.cnn.com/2019/10/13/politics/trump-fake-video-shooting-media-critics-doral/index.html



> A disturbing video of a fake President Donald Trump shooting, assaulting and stabbing his critics and the media was played at a conference held by a pro-Trump group at his Miami resort last week, according to footage obtained by The New York Times.
> The video, which was shown at Trump's National Doral Miami during a three-day conference held by American Priority, includes the logo for Trump's 2020 reelection bid and showcases a series of internet memes, the Times reported. One part of the video, the Times said, shows a fake Trump's head edited onto the body of a man opening fire in the "Church of Fake News" on a group whose faces were edited to appear as a group of Trump critics and news organizations.


More:
https://www.nytimes.com/2019/10/13/us/politics/trump-video.html



> The most violent clip shows Mr. Trump's head superimposed on the body of a man opening fire inside the "Church of Fake News" on parishioners who have the faces of his critics or the logos of media organizations superimposed on their bodies. It appears to be an edited scene of a church massacre from the 2014 dark comedy film "Kingsman: The Secret Service."
> ..................
> The video depicts a scene inside the "Church of Fake News,"
> 
> As the parishioners try to flee, the president fires at them. He shoots Black Lives Matter in the head, and also shoots Vice News.
> 
> He wrestles a parishioner with a Vice News logo as a face to the ground and then shoots the person at point blank range.
> 
> He strikes the late Arizona senator John McCain in the back of the neck. He hits the television personality Rosie O'Donnell in the face and then stabs her in the head. He strikes Representative Maxine Waters, Democrat of California. He lights the head of Senator Bernie Sanders, a Democratic presidential rival, on fire.
> 
> He takes Senator Mitt Romney, Republican of Utah, hostage before throwing him to the ground. Then he strikes former President Barack Obama in the back and throws him against a wall.
> 
> The clip ends with Mr. Trump putting a stake into the head of a person with a CNN logo for a face. Mr. Trump then stands on the altar, admiring his rampage, and smiles.


----------



## Wino

The orange gargoyle is one sick puppy.


----------



## Johnny b

* Exclusive: Trump lawyer Giuliani was paid $500,000 to consult on indicted associate's firm *
https://www.reuters.com/article/us-...ult-on-indicted-associates-firm-idUSKBN1WU07Z



> President Donald Trump's personal attorney, Rudy Giuliani, was paid $500,000 for work he did for a company co-founded by the Ukrainian-American businessman arrested last week on campaign finance charges, Giuliani told Reuters on Monday.





> Giuliani said Parnas' company, Boca Raton-based Fraud Guarantee, whose website says it aims to help clients "reduce and mitigate fraud",


Yeah, right!
Through illegal campaign contributions and sweetheart deals with Trump's personal lawyer 



> Giuliani told Reuters the money came in two payments made within weeks of each other. He said he could not recall the dates of the payments.


Or....perhaps he's taken so many bribes he's forgotten the timeline?



> According to an indictment unsealed by U.S. prosecutors, an unidentified Russian businessman arranged for two $500,000 wires to be sent from foreign bank accounts to a U.S. account controlled by Fruman in September and October 2018.


Two $500,000 bribes. And from a Russian source.
Wonder how many of these connections link back to the Russian intrusion into our last Presidential election that Trump claimed never happened 

...................
A little more:

* Wall Street Journal: Federal prosecutors examining Rudy Giuliani's business dealings in Ukraine *
https://www.cnn.com/2019/10/14/politics/rudy-giuliani-ukraine-business-scrutiny-trump/index.html



> Federal prosecutors in Manhattan are examining Rudy Giuliani's Ukraine business dealings, including his bank records, The Wall Street Journal reported Monday, citing people familiar with the matter.


* Federal Prosecutors Scrutinize Rudy Giuliani's Ukraine Business Dealings, Finances *
https://www.wsj.com/articles/federa...ealings-finances-11571092100?mod=hp_lead_pos6
(paywall)

.....................

This just popped up on Rudy's past as a mayor:

* Giuliani was always a fraud. Just ask the FDNY *
https://www.salon.com/2019/10/13/giuliani-was-always-a-fraud-just-ask-the-fdny/



> The contract for the new radios was a no bid, non-competitive contract that was, as it turned out, just an extension of an existing contract with Motorola, which has a near-monopoly on emergency communications.
> 
> According to a report issued by the New York City Comptroller the next month, the Giuliani administration had "willfully" violated "city contracting rules…. endangering firefighters in a reckless bid to buy a new type of hand-held radio that it later had to pull from service," according to the New York Times.
> 
> The Times reported that "the new digital radios were never properly tested before being distributed to firefighters." As City Comptroller Alan Hevesi documented, "they were purchased through what he described as an improper process that did not allow competing companies to bid for the contract."


Looks like Rudy was a slick politician long before becoming Trump's personal lawyer.


----------



## Wino

Holy crap Batman - John Bolton was a voice of reason in the WH???? That's one scary, bowel movement inducement when Bolton is less crazy than Trump.


----------



## Johnny b

In this news clip, Giuliani admits to doing 17 years of this type of 'work'.
In just 1 year, he was paid 1/2 a million dollars ( potentially Russian sourced ) by one of his associates , Parnas, that was just arrested.
So here he is, refusing a subpoena.






He's a lawyer. What in the world was he thinking?
I don't think this will end well for Rudy, at all.


----------



## Johnny b

https://www.cnn.com/2019/10/16/politics/impeachment-watch-october-15/index.html



> ......State Department Deputy Assistant Secretary George Kent told lawmakers Tuesday that he was told by a supervisor to lay low after he raised complaints about Rudy Giuliani's efforts in Ukraine undermining US foreign policy. That report came from Rep. Gerry Connolly, a senior member of the House Oversight Committee, who listened to Kent's testimony after he complied with a subpoena and appeared on Capitol Hill Tuesday.
> Kent testified that at a May meeting at the White House organized by acting chief of staff Mick Mulvaney, officials were told that three people would be in charge of Ukraine policy: Volker, Sondland and Energy Secretary Rick Perry.


*State Department official told to lie low after raising complaints about Giuliani*
https://www.cnn.com/2019/10/15/politics/george-kent-rudy-giuliani-ukraine-house-testimony/index.html



> Connolly, a Virginia lawmaker, said Kent described Giuliani's campaign to oust the US ambassador to Ukraine outside of the State Department channels as having "undermined 28 years of US efforts to try to promote the rule of law in Ukraine."
> ............
> Kent's testimony described how he believed Giuliani's efforts to oust the Ukrainian ambassador and conduct a parallel foreign policy was "wrong" and how Ukraine policy-making in the Trump administration had been consolidated into the hands of a few officials, according to Connolly.


The big question is, how long before Trump claims he hardly knew Rudy and Rudy takes one for Team Trump? 
Rudy....the bus cometh


----------



## Johnny b

* Trump says longtime allies the Kurds are 'not angels,' says Turkey's invasion of Syria 'not our problem' *
https://www.usatoday.com/story/news...-not-our-problem-kurds-not-angels/3975582002/

Trump claims his handling of the Turkish/Kurd problem "strategically brilliant".
Putin smiles.



> "It's not our problem," Trump told reporters in the Oval Office ..........


in the meanwhile


> The president, who described his decision to withdraw troops from Syria as "strategically brilliant" despite the bipartisan criticism, brushed aside reports that Russian troops have moved into the territory abandoned by the U.S.





> "They've got a lot of sand over there," Trump said. "There's a lot of sand that they can play with."


Again, Putin smiles. His investment is paying dividends.


----------



## Johnny b

Interesting article at Slate.
Some repetition, but a clearer perspective of recent events:

* Mike Pompeo's Subordinates Are Calling His Bluff in the Impeachment Inquiry *
https://slate.com/news-and-politics...fiona-hill-testify-defy-state-department.html

Too much to copy and paste, but an interesting read.

This one line stands out:


> They're defying his orders and testifying against Trump.


----------



## Johnny b

Wait a minute......didn't we already know Trump was crooked?

* Newly released Trump tax documents show major inconsistencies *
https://www.msn.com/en-us/money/mar...cuments-show-major-inconsistencies/ar-AAIRhGi



> Documents obtained by ProPublica show stark differences in how Donald Trump's businesses reported some expenses, profits and occupancy figures for two Manhattan buildings, giving a lender different figures than they provided to New York City tax authorities. The discrepancies made the buildings appear more profitable to the lender - and less profitable to the officials who set the buildings' property tax.


As I remember, Trump passed off things like that as 'playing the game'.
Wow, who knew it was illegal 

* Newly uncovered tax documents show Trump kept '2 sets of books' and may have committed financial fraud *
https://www.insider.com/propublica-trump-tax-records-financial-fraud-2019-10

Shocking, just shocking I tell you.


----------



## Johnny b

Perks for Trump appointees or......... loyalty for sale? :

* Gordon Sondland, Trump envoy and key figure in impeachment probe, faces criticism over $1 million taxpayer-funded home renovation *

https://www.washingtonpost.com/worl...eece92-ef86-11e9-bb7e-d2026ee0c199_story.html



> The work on the ambassador's home on the outskirts of Brussels includes more than $400,000 in kitchen renovations, nearly $30,000 for a new sound system and $95,000 for an outdoor "living pod" with a pergola and electric heating, LED lighting strips and a remote-control system, government procurement records show.
> 
> The State Department also has allocated more than $100,000 for an "alternate" residence for Sondland for September and October, while work is performed.


----------



## Johnny b

It's jaw dropping time at the White House.

*Mulvaney brashly admits quid pro quo over Ukraine aid as key details emerge -- and then denies doing so *
https://www.cnn.com/2019/10/17/poli...d-pro-quo-donald-trump-ukraine-aid/index.html



> White House acting chief of staff Mick Mulvaney made a stunning admission Thursday by confirming that President Donald Trump froze nearly $400 million in US security aid to Ukraine in part to pressure that country into investigating Democrats.
> 
> "That's why we held up the money," Mulvaney said after listing the 2016-related investigation and Trump's broader concerns about corruption in Ukraine.
> After weeks during which Trump denied the existence of any political quid pro quo in his withholding of security aid to Ukraine, Mulvaney confirmed the existence of a quid pro quo and offered this retort: "Get over it."
> "We do that all the time with foreign policy," Mulvaney said of the influence of politics in the Trump administration.


hmmmm......I think he's probably reviewing his resume since that outburst.

And he even denied making those comments.
Talk about backpedaling:


> "The only reasons we were holding the money was because of concern about lack of support from other nations and concerns over corruption," Mulvaney said in a written statement, adding, "There never was any condition on the flow of the aid related to the matter of the DNC server."





> Trump's attorney Jay Sekulow told CNN's Jim Acosta: "The legal team was not involved in the acting chief of staff's press briefing."


Apparently


----------



## Johnny b

A blowhard President with all roads leading to Putin?

* Sen. Mitt Romney raises a troubling theory about Trump and Turkey *
https://www.washingtonpost.com/poli...ses-very-troubling-theory-about-trump-turkey/



> "It's been … suggested that Turkey may have called America's bluff, telling the president they are coming no matter what we did," said Romney, of Utah. "If that's so, we should know it. For it would tell us a great deal about how we should deal with Turkey, now and in the future."
> 
> Romney then returned to the idea that Turkish President Recep Tayyip Erdogan might have given Trump an ultimatum that was met with acquiescence.
> "Are we so weak and inept diplomatically that Turkey forced the hand of the United States of America? Turkey!?" Romney said. "I believe that it's imperative that public hearings are held to answer these questions, and I hope the Senate is able to conduct those hearings next week."
> 
> "Are we so weak and inept diplomatically that Turkey forced the hand of the United States of America? Turkey!?" Romney said. "I believe that it's imperative that public hearings are held to answer these questions, and I hope the Senate is able to conduct those hearings next week."





> The Washington Post is also reporting that Sen. Charles Schumer (D-N.Y.) said Trump actually admitted to that in their contentious Oval Office meeting on Wednesday. Schumer said Trump recalled Erdogan told everyone "we're going to go in whether you want it or not."


*'All roads lead to Putin': Pelosi questions Trump's loyalty in White House clash*
https://www.washingtonpost.com/powe...87e46784aa_story.html?tid=lk_inline_manual_11


> The now-famous photo captured House Speaker Nancy Pelosi standing up in the Cabinet Room, pointing her finger at a visibly angry President Trump, and, in her telling, questioning his loyalty to the country he leads.
> 
> Why, she asked, did he withdraw U.S. troops from Syria - a geopolitical calculation that allowed a toehold in northern Syria for Russian President Vladimir Putin?
> 
> Why, she asked with lawmakers and aides watching and a White House photographer snapping away, do "all roads lead to Putin"? With that, Pelosi (D-Calif.) told reporters Thursday, she left the White House meeting Wednesday.


----------



## Wino

Mattis cut the orange ogre off at the neck. Particularly liked his "earned spurs" comment.


----------



## Johnny b

looks like Perry has decided to leave that 'sinking ship'.

Energy Secretary Rick Perry To Resign
https://www.npr.org/2019/10/17/593950148/energy-secretary-rick-perry-resigns


----------



## Wino

Johnny b said:


> looks like Perry has decided to leave that 'sinking ship'.
> 
> Energy Secretary Rick Perry To Resign
> https://www.npr.org/2019/10/17/593950148/energy-secretary-rick-perry-resigns


It was sinking when he got on. When I think of Perry and Trump, it reminds me of Dumb and Dumber.


----------



## Johnny b

Now Trump wants to sue CNN 

*Trump presidential campaign threatens to sue CNN, news network calls it a 'PR stunt' *
https://www.usatoday.com/story/news...campaign-threatens-sue-cnn-letter/4022715002/



> Neal Katyal, a former acting Solicitor General, said: "If the legal claims in his letter are any indication, I would think CNN will want him to sue and have a court decide this one."


That would be interesting, but legal threats are a way of life in Trumptopia and often disappear as such.


----------



## Johnny b

Talk about incredible and twisted propaganda from a twisted mind:

* Trump says Kurds are 'very happy' with U.S.-brokered deal and U.S. has 'taken control' of oil *

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news...rds-turkey-trump-syria-cease-fire/4020261002/



> President Donald Trump on Friday defended a U.S.-brokered halt to Turkey's military assault in Syria and made a puzzling assertion that the U.S. had "taken control" of oil fields in the region, even as fighting continued near the Syria-Turkey border.
> 
> The Kurds "are very happy about the way things are going," Trump added. "We've taken control of the oil in the Middle East ... the oil that everybody was worried about."





> The president did not explain what he meant by taking "control of the oil in the Middle East." But he was likely referring to oil fields in eastern Syria, which Kurdish forces gained control over amid the chaos of Syria's civil war.
> 
> The Turkish invasion - which began last week after Trump withdrew U.S. troops from northeast Syria - jeopardized the Kurds' hold on those oil fields, as Russia, Iran and other military forces vied to fill a power vacuum left by the U.S.


* The Kurds "are very happy about the way things are going," Trump added. *
Really? He could repeat that a million times and I'd still doubt it 

edit:

* Fighting continues in Syrian border town despite Turkish agreement to halt offensive *
https://www.washingtonpost.com/worl...2b03ca-f112-11e9-bb7e-d2026ee0c199_story.html


----------



## Johnny b

In Mulvaney's own words about the quid pro quo concerning the Ukraine and it even includes a violation of the emoluments issue within the Constitution.


----------



## Johnny b

More on Giuliani :

* Giuliani pushed Trump administration to grant a visa to a Ukrainian official promising dirt on Democrats *
https://www.cnn.com/2019/10/18/politics/giuliani-shokin-state-visa-george-kent/index.html



> Kent, the deputy assistant secretary of state for European and Eurasian affairs, testified that around January 2019 Giuliani requested a visa for former Ukrainian prosecutor-general Viktor Shokin to travel to the United States. Shokin had been pushed out of his position as Ukraine's top prosecutor in 2016 after pressure from Western leaders, including Biden, over concerns that he was not pursuing corruption cases.
> 
> Kent told congressional investigators the State Department had objected to the request, and State did not grant the visa. Giuliani, Kent said, then appealed to the White House to have State reverse its decision. Shokin's visa was never granted, although Giuliani eventually spoke with Shokin over Skype.
> 
> The incident reveals how Giuliani's work to dig up dirt on Democrats went much further than previously understood -- and included an attempt to directly influence the actions of the federal government.





> Concerns that Giuliani was inappropriately involved in shaping and driving the administration's Ukraine policy form a significant part of the intelligence community whistleblower's complaint, which prompted the ongoing impeachment investigation into President Donald Trump.


----------



## Johnny b

Just more of Trump's administration past catching up to him:

* Trump officials say aid to Puerto Rico was knowingly stalled after Hurricane Maria *
https://thehill.com/homenews/admini...fficials-say-aid-to-puerto-rico-was-knowingly



> Two officials with the Department of Housing and Urban Development (HUD) acknowledged during a hearing this week that the agency knowingly stalled sending hurricane relief funding to Puerto Rico after missing a legally required deadline to do so.


They are US citizens........:down:


----------



## Wino

Johnny b said:


> Just more of Trump's administration past catching up to him:
> 
> * Trump officials say aid to Puerto Rico was knowingly stalled after Hurricane Maria *
> https://thehill.com/homenews/admini...fficials-say-aid-to-puerto-rico-was-knowingly
> 
> They are US citizens........


Yes, but not white.


----------



## Johnny b

Wino said:


> Yes, but not white.


Yeah.

Trump is a stain on our society,


----------



## Wino

.....................and humanity.


----------



## Johnny b

I didn't think a court ruling would go this way while Trump was in office.
His improper involvement in the Ukraine/Biden controversy obviously has had a negative impact for Trump.

* In ruling on Trump finances, court finds broad authority for impeachment inquiry *
https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/tr...-broad-authority-impeachment-inquiry-n1068226

And now, Trump's financial history has become, potentially, a vehicle for impeachment.

I wonder if Rudy will be involved in the appeal 
Or the impeachment lol!


----------



## Johnny b

Looks like even Bannon is disgusted with Trump

* Impeachment a 'Mortal Threat' to Trump, White House Struggling to Combat Inquiry Warns Steve Bannon *
https://www.newsweek.com/steve-bannon-donald-trump-impeachment-mortal-danger-1466505



> Steve Bannon criticised the way the White House was responding to the impeachment crisis, sparked by claims that Trump had pressured his Ukrainian counterpart to get dirt on Democratic 2020 contender Joe Biden and his son Hunter.
> 
> "This is serious. As sure as the turning of the earth, he is going to be impeached by Pelosi in the next six weeks. Nancy Pelosi is very focused,"
> 
> Bannon said a sign of the dysfunction within the Trump administration was the press conference in which Trump's chief of staff confirmed last week that Trump had withheld military aid to Ukraine, pending cooperation in what was part of a quid pro quo, only to later row back on that claim.
> 
> "I don't feel comfortable when I see the chief of staff, Mick Mulvaney," Bannon said.
> 
> "The fake news and witch hunt stuff is not working."


----------



## Johnny b

This is bizarre. It appears the AG, Barr is attempting to exonerate the Russians for their intrusion into our 2016 election and pin it on the Ukrainians, even though all investigations and evidence points to the Russians.

* AG Barr expands mysterious review into origin of Russia investigation *
https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/ju...l-review-origin-russia-investigation-n1068971



> A review launched by Attorney General William Barr into the origins of the Russia investigation has expanded significantly amid concerns about whether the probe has any legal or factual basis, multiple current and former officials told NBC News.
> 
> The prosecutor conducting the review, Connecticut U.S. Attorney John Durham, has expressed his intent to interview a number of current and former intelligence officials involved in examining Russia's effort to interfere in the 2016 presidential election
> 
> When White House chief of staff Mick Mulvaney sought Thursday to justify President Donald Trump's efforts to pressure Ukraine, he called the Durham review "an ongoing investigation by our Department of Justice into the 2016 election."
> 
> Mulvaney appeared to be referencing a conspiracy theory, mentioned by President Trump in his July phone call with the Ukrainian president, that a Democratic National Committee computer server hacked by Russian intelligence agents is actually in Ukraine.
> 
> Under that discredited theory, Ukraine, not Russia, hacked the Democrats in 2016.
> 
> President Trump's first homeland security adviser, Tom Bossert, said on ABC last month that he was frustrated about the president's embrace of that falsehood.
> 
> "It's not only a conspiracy, it is completely debunked," Bossert said.


Extreme desperation seems to take bizarre paths


----------



## Johnny b

* Poll: Majority of Americans lacks confidence in Trump when it comes to making Supreme Court picks *
https://www.usatoday.com/story/news...ump-low-marks-supreme-court-picks/4052155002/

An interesting article with too much to copy and paste.

But this stood out in regards to the debate going on in my 'Gun' thread:



> For example, of seven major rulings the survey asked about, the most popular was one that is widely embraced by conservatives: the finding in "DC v. Heller" that the Second Amendment confers an individual right to bear arms. It was viewed favorably by two-thirds of those polled.


----------



## Johnny b

This is rich 

Trump now claims part of the Constitution is phony.

* 'Phony.' Donald Trump mocks 'emoluments' clause of U.S. Constitution that bans foreign gifts *
https://www.usatoday.com/story/news...stitution-emoluments-clause-phony/4055162002/



> Speaking to reporters in the White House Cabinet Room, Trump dismissed as "phony" a section of the Constitution that bars federal office holders from accepting gifts from foreign governments.
> 
> "You people with this phony Emoluments Clause," he said.


uh huh!



He got caught


----------



## Johnny b

Talk about backpedaling!

Again!

* 'Trump is thinking outside the box': Graham now 'impressed' with White House handling of Syria *

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news...dsey-graham-changes-opinion-syria/4053524002/



> Graham said the situation could lead to "historic security" for the Kurds and the Turks while also keeping the oil fields in northeast Syria out of Iranian hands. He said that "we're on the verge" of a deal that could give the oil revenue to the Kurds.


https://www.nytimes.com/2019/10/21/world/middleeast/turkey-syria-border-erdogan.html

Not seeing it, Lindsey.


----------



## Johnny b

Oh my goodness 

Trump doesn't know this guy? 

https://www.cnn.com/videos/politics...nas-trump-private-instagram-page-lead-vpx.cnn


----------



## Johnny b

Something of interest today concerning Trump and the Ukraine:

* Diplomat who called Trump Ukraine policy 'crazy' to testify in impeachment probe *

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news...aine-diplomat-bill-taylor-testify/4036013002/



> William Taylor, the top U.S. diplomat to Ukraine who called it "crazy" that the United States would condition the release of security assistance to Ukraine on opening an investigation into Democrats, will testify Tuesday behind closed doors in the House impeachment inquiry.
> 
> Taylor, a career diplomat, had raised concerns among diplomats that the administration's Ukraine policy was withholding nearly $400 million in U.S. military aid until Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelensky delivered on President Donald Trump's demands.
> 
> Lawmakers on the three House committees investigating the Ukraine policy - Foreign Affairs, Intelligence, and Oversight and Reform - are expected to ask Taylor about military aid and the role of Trump's personal attorney Rudy Giuliani in Ukraine policy.


----------



## Johnny b

Moscow Mitch has imaged himself as the 'last word' on what the Senate's role is in the trial element of impeachment and he will be Trump's protector.
Turns out, he doesn't have as much power as he'd like the Kentucky voters to realize, in his upcoming campaign for re-election.
Currently, John Roberts will have the first word.

* John Roberts Won't Let Mitch McConnell Derail a Trump Impeachment Trial *
https://slate.com/news-and-politics...-mitch-mcconnell-trump-impeachment-trial.html



> The Constitution explicitly states that the chief justice, in this case John Roberts, "shall preside" over presidential impeachment trials. The rules of the Senate, moreover, require McConnell to take this command seriously. In order to prevent the vice president, who formally presides over the Senate, from refusing to allow the chief justice to play his constitutional role, the Senate rules governing impeachment require the vice president to swear in the chief justice immediately after the House's charges are announced on the floor. The rules then explicitly empower the chief justice to "direct all the forms of proceedings" during the trial. The Senate, in contrast, is granted the "power to enforce obedience" to all these rulings.
> 
> ...............
> 
> The current rules are not written in stone. The existing Senate could change them before the trial begins. But it is unlikely, to say the least, that McConnell could gain the majority support required for a revision


Interesting.


----------



## Johnny b

Talk about a confused foreign policy 

* Trump warns U.S. 'may have to get in wars' *
https://www.politico.com/news/2019/10/21/trump-united-states-wars-iran-053341



> President Donald Trump on Monday offered a confusing description of his foreign policy priorities as commander in chief - insisting that he is working to bring home American soldiers, while warning the U.S. may soon enter into new military conflicts.
> 
> "I'm trying to get out of wars. We may have to get in wars, too. OK? We may have to get in wars," Trump told reporters at the White House.
> 
> Story Continued Below
> 
> "We're better prepared than we've ever been," he continued. "If Iran does something, they'll be hit like they've never been hit before. I mean, we have things that we're looking at."


We obviously have a dangerous loon in charge that will do anything, threaten anyone, lie about anything.....to stay in power.


----------



## Johnny b

A little more depth to Trump's close friendship with Parnas, a man arrested on illegal campaign finance charges, that Trump claims he doesn't know (  )

* Lev Parnas Instagram Reveals Personal Note From Trump Thanking Him For His 'Friendship' *

https://www.thedailybeast.com/lev-p...te-from-trump-thanking-him-for-his-friendship



> a note apparently signed by Trump and first lady Melania Trump, which reads: "To Lev Parnas, Thank you for your friendship and dedication to our cause. Leaders like you in Florida are key to fulfilling our bold agenda to Make America Great Again!"


I hope Lev isn't counting on a pardon !
$350,000 and all Lev got was one stinkin' Instagram?
Call me skeptical


----------



## Wino

Lie down with dogs and get up with fleas - I'm referring to Lev. LOL


----------



## Johnny b

Indeed,Wayne 

And so it goes......

alert.....FAKE NEWS 

* US diplomat says Donald Trump wanted Ukraine military aid linked to probe of Bidens *
https://www.usatoday.com/story/news...aine-diplomat-bill-taylor-testify/4036013002/



> Allies of President Donald Trump made clear to Ukraine last summer that the release of military aid for the country would be contingent on whether it opened an investigation into an energy company that employed former Vice President Joe Biden's son Hunter, a senior diplomat told lawmakers Tuesday in the House impeachment inquiry.
> 
> Bill Taylor, the top U.S. diplomat to Ukraine, said in his opening statement, obtained by The Associated Press, that he was "alarmed" by the linking of aid to investigations of Trump's Democratic rival Joe Biden. A source familiar with the statement confirmed its authenticity.
> 
> ...............
> Taylor said the demand was relayed to him by Gordon Sondland, the U.S. ambassador to the European Union and a key Trump ally, during a phone call the two had.
> .................
> Sondland also said Trump wanted an investigation of a theory about election interference by Ukraine, according to Taylor.


What does it take to convince the 35% of the public that supports Trump, that he's a dangerous liar?

in addition:

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news...e-diplomat-bill-taylors-testimony/2450332001/



> According to Taylor, there were "two channels" of policymaking in Ukraine. One channel was the official State Department channel. The other involved other American officials and Trump's personal attorney, Rudy Giuliani.
> 
> "There was an irregular, informal channel of U.S. policy-making with respect to Ukraine, one which included then-Special Envoy Kurt Volker, Ambassador (Gordon) Sondland, Secretary of Energy Rick Perry, and as I subsequently learned, Mr. Giuliani," Taylor told congressional members and staff.
> 
> Taylor said the irregular channel began in May 2019 after an American delegation returned from Ukraine.
> 
> Taylor says he was told a White House meeting with Zelensky would be conditioned on the opening of investigations


The 'perfect' phone call?
Yeah, my patootie


----------



## Johnny b

And Lindsey Graham has something to say, inadvertently, about his support and commitment to a criminal President.

https://www.usatoday.com/videos/new...-agrees-impeachment-like-lynching/4064245002/

*Graham agrees impeachment like a 'lynching' *



> Sen. Lindsey Graham says he agrees with President Donald Trump that the Democrats' impeachment drive is like a "lynching." While Rep. Al Green calls for the president's impeachment.


Considering current testimony of Taylor, perhaps Graham ought to be investigated for his support of a breach of Constitutional law.
What is his involvement and what is he personally getting in return?


----------



## Johnny b

A new book coming out.
*A Warning *
A tell-all from within the Trump administration.

Might be interesting.

* Anonymous author of Trump 'resistance' op-ed to publish a tell-all book *
https://www.washingtonpost.com/poli...ea2f42-f45a-11e9-ad8b-85e2aa00b5ce_story.html



> The author of an anonymous column in the New York Times in 2018, who was identified as a senior Trump administration official acting as part of the "resistance" inside the government, has written a tell-all book to be published next month.
> 
> The book, titled "A Warning," is being promoted as "an unprecedented behind-the-scenes portrait of the Trump presidency" that expands upon the Times column, which ricocheted around the world and stoked the president's rage
> 
> https://www.washingtonpost.com/poli...f4f84429666_story.html?tid=lk_inline_manual_3
> 
> because of its devastating portrayal of Trump in office.


----------



## Johnny b

Talk about cross purposes and a corrupt President 

* Trump administration sought billions of dollars in cuts to programs aimed at fighting corruption in Ukraine and elsewhere *
https://www.washingtonpost.com/us-p...ams-aimed-fighting-corruption-ukraine-abroad/



> The Trump administration has sought repeatedly to cut foreign aid programs tasked with combating corruption in Ukraine and elsewhere overseas, White House budget documents show, despite recent claims from President Trump and his administration that they have been singularly concerned with fighting corruption in Ukraine.
> 
> Those claims have come as the president and his administration sought to explain away a July phone call between Trump and Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelensky, during which Trump pressured his counterpart to open investigations into Joe Biden and his son Hunter, and into a debunked conspiracy theory involving a hacked Democratic National Committee computer server.


----------



## Johnny b

I recently made a comment about Trump's 'lobotomized' condition in the *'Trump laugh of the day'* thread.

I apologize. It was a cheap shot.

* Donald Trump: 'We're building a wall in Colorado' *
https://www.usatoday.com/story/news...lares-were-building-wall-colorado/4077890002/

And it's going to be a beautiful wall. LOL!



> And we're building a wall in Colorado. We're building a beautiful wall. A big one that really works - that you can't get over, you can't get under," Trump said during a speech at the Shale Insight Conference in Pittsburgh.




I was hoping to visit Pikes Peak next summer.
I wonder what the Coloradians did to deserve such draconian measures?



Well, they'll never get away with it as long as the Donald is President! 

edit: This is the stuff legendary ballads are made of :up:!


----------



## Johnny b

Wow, some of the Twitter comments simply aren't kind at all. This is sad.

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news...lares-were-building-wall-colorado/4077890002/



> Hey @TeamHeinrich & @tomudall
> do one of you want to break it to @realDonaldTrump that Colorado's border is with New Mexico, not Mexico...or should I? https://t.co/8Qqe59Oep4
> - John Hickenlooper (@Hickenlooper) October 23, 2019
> 
> We can confidently say that Mexico is never going to pay for a wall with Colorado. https://t.co/Jwniln1HFT
> - George Conway (@gtconway3d) October 23, 2019
> 
> Is NEW Mexico gonna pay for it? https://t.co/DoSNGfsB9C
> - Rep. Diana DeGette (@RepDianaDeGette) October 23, 2019












(sour grapes?)


----------



## Johnny b

And then there is this to deal with, a loon that thinks he's a king and those that support him.

* Trump's lawyers claim the president is an elected king *

https://www.washingtonpost.com/opin...s-lawyers-claim-president-is-an-elected-king/



> "In court hearing, Trump lawyer argues a sitting president would be immune from prosecution even if he were to shoot someone," The Post reported Wednesday. This is an even more shocking assertion of executive impunity than it initially seems.





> Judge Denny Chin pressed Consovoy about the hypothetical shooting in the middle of Manhattan.
> "Local authorities couldn't investigate? They couldn't do anything about it?" he asked, adding, "Nothing could be done? That is your position?"
> "That is correct," Consovoy answered emphasizing that the immunity applied only while Trump is in office.


(note: as discussed in this forum, that would only apply to the Criminal Courts, not Congress---through impeachment )



> He has called the Democrats' exercise of their authority to conduct impeachment proceedings - a power the Constitution plainly grants the House - a "coup," "crap" and a "lynching," declaring Monday that "it's so illegitimate. This cannot be the way our great founders meant this to be."





> Bloomberg reported Wednesday that the president approved a plan among ultra-partisan House Republicans to storm a secure impeachment hearing, which they did on Wednesday, stopping the testimony of a Pentagon official. In a letter to House Speaker Nancy Pelosi (D-Calif.), White House counsel Pat Cipollone declared earlier this month that the executive branch would not cooperate with the House impeachment inquiry because "the President cannot allow your constitutionally illegitimate proceedings to distract him and those in the Executive Branch."


This is sounding like a Trump drive to over throw the Constitution and position himself as an absolute ruler rather than an elected executive of the administrative branch of our government.
It's essentially a call to a civil war if he doesn't get his way.


----------



## Johnny b

In desperation to obviously focus attention away from Trump's current crimes, the head of the the DOJ is attempting to invent a scenario where the Russian intrusion into our 2016 election in support of Trump was used as a rationalization for the FBI to spy on the Trump campaign in an attempt to illegally drive Trump from office.

How twisted is that?

Perhaps Barr ought to be investigated 

* DOJ inquiry into origins of Russia investigation has shifted to criminal probe *
https://www.usatoday.com/story/news...vestigation-shifts-criminal-probe/4091645002/

It looks like the Russian influence goes deep and along with Trump and his minions, is the 'Deep State'.


----------



## Johnny b

Interesting commentary over at Fox News:

https://www.foxnews.com/media/mark-levin-trump-gets-treated-worse-than-a-terrorist-or-mass-murder



> "So, Nixon and Clinton got treated fairly," Levin said on "Hannity." "Trump gets treated worse than a terrorist or mass murder."


This is why Fox News is so often accused of it's bias.
Obvious propaganda and absurdities presented in support of draconian politics.

Of course terrorists and mass murderers are treated worse than Trump. They are either arrested or extreme methods used to arrest, in order to remove them from society.
Trump has been getting a free pass at creating discord and destruction through out the US. And his fascist supporters seem to love him for it.


----------



## Johnny b

Again, the GOP controlled Senate is complicit in supporting the ability of Russian interference in future elections.

* Republican senators shoot down a triple whammy of proposed election security laws *

https://www.theregister.co.uk/2019/10/24/election_security_bills/



> Who wants to stop Russians from hacking Americans' votes? Not us, thank you
> 
> The US Senate on Wednesday blocked a trio of law bills that aimed to make America's elections more secure and transparent.


That's right, while our focus was on the GOP complaining about how Trump is treated unfairly in regards to his Russian backers and his illegal back-channel connections with the Ukraine, the GOP Senate was making sure the Russians still had the ability to interfere in our elections.


----------



## Johnny b

Earlier in the morning I posted:



> Perhaps Barr ought to be investigated


Now it's looking like the Department of Justice needs to be investigated as to it's loyalty to not just the written law, but also to which nation state it serves.

* As Trump impeachment probe heats up, some say Congress is doing inquiry the Justice Department should've done *
https://www.usatoday.com/story/news...idnt-doj-look-harder-ukraine-call/4024155002/

It's a long article, too much to quote but definitely worthwhile reading.

There is something terribly and fundamentally wrong when functionaries with in our government intentionally choose worst possible decisions seen as favoritisms while being a negatives to our society and its security.

And that would currently be the Department of Justice and elements of the GOP , both aligned with Trump, obviously supporting his questionable relationship with Russia and his involvement with the current Ukrainian conspiracy to affect the next election.


----------



## Johnny b

And now the two issues of the Trump/Russian connection concerning election interference ....and the Ukraine conspiracy to affect another election just got joined.
It will be interesting to see what happens with those facts.

*Impeachment: House Judiciary Committee wins court order for grand jury evidence in special counsel Robert Mueller's report *
https://www.usatoday.com/story/news...o-house-investigators-judge-rules/2458063001/



> The House Judiciary Committee won access Friday to the grand jury evidence behind special counsel Robert Mueller's report about Russian interference in the 2016 election, a key federal court test about the legitimacy of the House impeachment inquiry.
> 
> Judiciary Committee Chairman Rep. Jerry Nadler, D-N.Y., had argued that the panel needed to review the evidence that Attorney General William Barr redacted from the report in order to review possible obstruction of justice by President Donald Trump during Mueller's investigation.
> 
> Howell ordered the Justice Department to disclose by Oct. 30 all portions of Mueller's report that were redacted because of grand jury evidence and underlying exhibits that dealt with the evidence. After the review, the committee could submit further requests for additional grand jury material, Howell said in the two-page ruling.





> "The White House's stated policy of non-cooperation with the impeachment inquiry weighs heavily in favor of disclosure," Howell wrote. "Congress's need to access grand jury material relevant to potential impeachable conduct by a President is heightened when the Executive Branch willfully obstructs channels for accessing other relevant evidence."


You could say, Trump did it to himself


----------



## Johnny b

And we're back to another issue of the emoluments clause and Trump:

* Trump Organization considers selling DC hotel at center of ethics complaints *
https://www.usatoday.com/story/news...mp-international-hotel-washington/4064138002/


----------



## Wino

All this would end if Trump would cooperate and supply all things requested, including tax returns and quit stonewalling everything. If no laws broken the Dems end up with egg on their face - chance that will happen in any case, but I'm guessing Trump has a lot to hide and isn't about to cooperate.


----------



## Johnny b

Yep.

I think those close to him also have a lot to hide.


----------



## Johnny b

* Giuliani probe snowballs *
https://www.politico.com/news/2019/10/25/rudy-giuliani-justice-department-057125

A bit of a rehash of events, but this stands out:



> Notably, Giuliani was not at the White House earlier this week when his fellow Trump lawyers met with the president for a brief impeachment strategy session. Heeding concerns long vocalized by many of the president's aides and outside allies that his media interviews were hurting the president, Giuliani has made no prime-time television network appearances over the past two weeks.


That's usually considered 'persona non grata'. 

Rudy, look out for that bus!!!


----------



## Wino

I'll say one thing - Trump is a fat whiny orange wench with bad hair.

I think buses are out - Turnip will use tanks or MRAP's as he continues to avert justice.


----------



## Johnny b

That's another thing to worry about.

As Commander in Chief, would the military take arms up against civilian authority if ordered to do so? Or even Congress?


----------



## Wino

Johnny b said:


> That's another thing to worry about.
> 
> *As Commander in Chief, would the military take arms up against civilian authority if ordered to do so? Or even Congress?*


I'm thankin' we're gonna find out, unfortunately !!


----------



## Johnny b

Something in the news this morning:

* President Trump to deliver 'major statement' Sunday, White House says *
https://www.usatoday.com/story/news...mp-white-house-major-announcement/2476796001/

And it appears from the article, to be associated with an attack focused on Baghdadi.

From:
https://www.newsweek.com/trump-approves-special-ops-raid-targeting-isis-leader-baghdadi-1467982
* Trump Approves Special Ops Raid Targeting ISIS Leader Baghdadi, Military Says He's Dead *



> The United States military has conducted a special operations raid targeting one of its most high-value targets, Abu Bakr al-Baghdadi, the leader of the Islamic State militant group (ISIS), Newsweek has learned. President Donald Trump approved the mission nearly a week before it took place.


So if you are reading this, be sure to turn on your TV or radio to see what Trump has to say this morning or of course your favorite news web site.


----------



## Wino

I'm guessing he will regale us with his super power genius and how he killed Baghdadi in hand-to-hand combat and the spec ops were just in a support roll, but he personally did all the work.  Maybe the first time a terrorist was killed being smothered with a Big Mac and special sauce.

Holy crap, Batman!! Can anyone stop the prating ??!!


----------



## Johnny b

No doubt.

And now the issue of impeaching a hero becomes a political problem even if proven guilty.


----------



## britekguy

Johnny b said:


> . . . impeaching a hero . . .


Only the dyed-in-the-wool Trumpistas would consider him that. The fact that Trump is a malignant narcissist willing to take credit for anything is utterly unchanged by this small success.


----------



## Johnny b

BriTG said:


> Only the dyed-in-the-wool Trumpistas would consider him that. The fact that Trump is a malignant narcissist willing to take credit for anything is utterly unchanged by this small success.


Agreed.

But logic doesn't seem to rule in our highest office and he does have a lot of like minded followers.


----------



## britekguy

But the fact is that he does not have enough like-minded followers to be re-elected unless those who oppose him do what they did in the last election: sit it out or cast a protest vote [and by protest vote I don't count sincere votes for a third party candidate because you believe in them].

If anyone who doesn't want Trump in office does not turn out at the polls and vote for whoever the Democrats nominate, and that could include my left great toe's toenail clipping, then they are effectively casting a vote for Trump.

Substitute the name of whomever will become the nominee of the Democrats in this quotation from 2016 and it is every bit as applicable in the next election:

*If the next President of the United States is NOT Hillary Clinton, the next President of the United States WILL BE Donald Trump. That is the way it truly is in the real world, and if you do not believe it, then your mind dwells somewhere else, and I have no respect for you or your political views.*
~ _Ferguson Foont_, commenting on petulant Bernie Sanders supporters, 7/28/2016, in _Washington Post_ article: _Winners and losers from the third night of the Democratic convention_

Adults know that they will frequently be faced with choices among candidates that they do not think are anywhere near to ideal. Voting for the one that you believe will do the least damage if elected, and that you believe can be elected, when this is the case is what sensible adults do - holding their noses while doing so if necessary.


----------



## Johnny b

BriTG said:


> But the fact is that he does not have enough like-minded followers to be re-elected unless those who oppose him do what they did in the last election: sit it out or cast a protest vote [and by protest vote I don't count sincere votes for a third party candidate because you believe in them].
> 
> If anyone who doesn't want Trump in office does not turn out at the polls and vote for whoever the Democrats nominate, and that could include my left great toe's toenail clipping, then they are effectively casting a vote for Trump.
> 
> Substitute the name of whomever will become the nominee of the Democrats in this quotation from 2016 and it is every bit as applicable in the next election:
> 
> *If the next President of the United States is NOT Hillary Clinton, the next President of the United States WILL BE Donald Trump. That is the way it truly is in the real world, and if you do not believe it, then your mind dwells somewhere else, and I have no respect for you or your political views.*
> ~ _Ferguson Foont_, commenting on petulant Bernie Sanders supporters, 7/28/2016, in _Washington Post_ article: _Winners and losers from the third night of the Democratic convention_
> 
> Adults know that they will frequently be faced with choices among candidates that they do not think are anywhere near to ideal. Voting for the one that you believe will do the least damage if elected, and that you believe can be elected, when this is the case is what sensible adults do - holding their noses while doing so if necessary.


I'm not sure about that.
With the general Democrat following, tilting toward a socialist economic position ( Warren and distantly Sanders ) with plans that aren't affordable, or not affordable with tax rates unless configured as confiscation, I suspect it's a close call and much of the Democrat influence in Wall Street seems to be pushing back.

Trump got in by way of style over substance and help from the Russians. 
It's not like he was an unknown quantity.
The public ignored it and Trump won by way of the Electoral College.

Me, I've quit on the assumption the lesser of two evils is rationale.
I'm just not interested in choosing between two bad choices.

The primaries are a long way off and much can happen.
A lot to speculate.

If impeached, will Trump be removed from office?
If so, he can't run again.
Will the general public accept the costs of Warren and Sanders economic plans?
With a society embracing more and more entitlements as rights,, voters might.

IMO, politics in the US has become style over substance with a lot of emotionalism. 
Neither is rational.



> If anyone who doesn't want Trump in office does not turn out at the polls and vote for whoever the Democrats nominate, and that could include my left great toe's toenail clipping, then they are effectively casting a vote for Trump.


That's your opinion and you are welcome to it.
For me, it's going to depend on whom the Democrats nominate.


----------



## britekguy

It is my opinion. And the quotation is the reason behind it.

Politics, the art of the possible. And very often the possible is nowhere near what I'd like, but I'll do my duty and choose the "least damage" (in my opinion) option over sitting it out or casting a throw-away vote.

The choice was utterly stark in 2016, and if it isn't even more stark now, with the stakes entirely known, it never will be.

I disagree with your opinion that Trump was not an unknown quantity, at least in the larger sense. He positioned himself as the "blank anger slate" upon which his supporters could (and still do) project whatever they want to project. I do agree with your position, "politics in the US has become style over substance with a lot of emotionalism." It has taken over 40 years of careful cultivation from certain quarters to make facts entirely irrelevant for many, and acceptance of "alternative facts" (read: lies) entirely acceptable bases on which to make decisions. Sad, profoundly sad.


----------



## Johnny b

BriTG said:


> ................
> I disagree with your opinion that Trump was not an unknown quantity, at least in the larger sense. .................


I suspect I'm older than you are......73. I've probably just seen more of his BS through the decades

Why he is unknown to much of general public prior to his campaign is really an issue characteristic of a 'TV audience' that lacks intellectual curiosity and favors gratification.

He puffed himself up into a super capitalist larger than life and essentially promised the same for followers.
He is a real estate developer. It's what they do. Promises made in grand style and too often forgotten in reality.

Of that, he is a master. A malevolent opportunist.


----------



## britekguy

You are a bit older than I am (late 50s). Having lived near NYC for 2 years I got to see Trump "more up close and personal" (even if at distance) than many. Anyone from the metro NYC area knew and knows what a malevolent opportunist Trump is, and tried to warn the country.

But you are right about why he was such a "blank slate" to many. That doesn't change the fact that he was, and that allowed the basket of deplorables, along with many decent but disaffected people, to project on to Trump whatever it was that they wanted to. They're still doing it, too.

He's a grifter of the first order, and always has been.


----------



## Johnny b

Through all the constitutionally illegal crap Trump does, his outrageous tweets and claims in court that he could kill anyone he wanted to and no one can stop him, his abuse of immigrants seeking sanctury, his potentially fraudulent tax returns of the past ( and even more crap ) a new USAToday poll shows his followers do not budge in facing reality by their complete and total support of what he does.

* Poll: Who's sticking with President Trump, through trouble and tweets? His seemingly unshakable base. *
https://www.usatoday.com/story/news...ment-ukraine-call-core-supporters/2478185001/



> Americans are split in the survey about whether Trump should be convicted by the Senate in an impeachment trial and removed from office: 46% in favor and 47% against.
> 
> Despite damaging new testimony, however, 30% to 40% of those surveyed remain solidly on Trump's side.


There is obviously more wrong than just Trump's leadership.
It starts with those that embrace his values and are blind to his egregious negatives.


----------



## Johnny b

About the 'more wrong than just Trump'.
How much does the general public know/realize/suspect about those elected officials that support Trump vociferously? Do they care?

I know of Jim Jordan because of local newspapers. He's an Ohioan. 
Jim Jordan:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jim_Jordan_(American_politician)

This is a politician that almost became Speaker of the House.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jim_Jordan_(American_politician)#Caucus_memberships
To position him as a radical is an understatement.

John Boehner, an Ohioan, a past conservative Republican Speaker of the House had little respect for Jordan, and that's an understatement!!
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jim_Jordan_(American_politician)#Criticism_and_Controversies

Use these search terms 
*" jim jordan + assistant coach + wrestlers abused "*
of which I had read about in my local news, and of his district, and wonder why any one would ever trust their own security and life, to such a schmuck responsible for writing legislation, we as citizens, depend upon!!

Why would any one trust such a man in such an important position as 'legislator'?


----------



## Johnny b

Oh my. The intricacies of Trump's corruption.

* Trump Sides With Indicted Oligarch Over His Own Diplomat * https://www.thedailybeast.com/trump...oligarch-dmytro-firtash-over-his-own-diplomat



> The president of the United States amplified a tweet calling one of his diplomats a liar-and, by implication, absolving a Ukrainian gas mogul of any mob ties.


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dmytro_Firtash


> a Ukrainian businessman who heads the board of directors of Group DF.[1] U.S. federal prosecutors described Firtash in 2017 court papers as an associate of Russian organized crime.[2] He was highly influential during the Yuschenko administration[citation needed] and Yanukovych administration.[3] As a middleman for the Russian natural gas giant Gazprom, Firtash funneled money into the campaigns of pro-Russia politicians in Ukraine.


 And there is a lot more at the Wikipedia link.


----------



## Johnny b

Mums the word with Moscow Mitch these days 

* Mitch McConnell's extraordinary efforts to say nothing at all *
https://www.cnn.com/2019/10/29/politics/mitch-mcconnell-impeachment-inquiry/index.html



> Senate Majority Leader Mitch McConnell went to extraordinary lengths Tuesday to avoid giving substantive answers to direct questions about the allegations made by Army Lt. Col. Alexander Vindman, the first current White House official to testify in the House impeachment inquiry about President Donald Trump's controversial call with the Ukrainian President that is at the heart of the probe.
> McConnell was pressed by a reporter about Vindman's testimony at his weekly news conference in the Capitol, as several other members of the Senate GOP leadership stood stoically -- and silently -- behind him.
> Notably, the Kentucky Republican's nonresponses came just a day after Trump had implored congressional Republicans to spend more energy defending his actions on that phone call, which he has described as "perfect," and not just to complain about the closed-door investigative process by House Democrats.


----------



## Johnny b

Not a surprise, but here is testimony to the issue contrary to Trump's phone call claims:



> Vindman says White House deleted Trump's reference to Biden tapes in transcript of Zelensky call


https://www.cnn.com/2019/10/30/poli...n-testimony-white-house-transcript/index.html



> Lt. Col. Alexander Vindman testified that one example of his attempts to change the transcript was to include Trump telling Ukraine President Volodymyr Zelensky there were tapes of Biden, which The New York Times reported occurred where there's an ellipsis in the transcript that was released. The change was not made. The assertion that some portion of the conversation was replaced by an ellipsis contradicts the White House's statement in September that the ellipses in the transcript did not represent missing words or phrases. It also contradicts the President who has insisted the transcript the White House released was an exact depiction of the call, even though the memo itself describes it as rough.


----------



## Johnny b

A diversion away from impeachment?
Schumer thinks it is a possibility.

* Schumer warns Trump may shut down the government over impeachment *
https://www.politico.com/news/2019/10/29/schumer-impeachment-fueled-shutdown-061179



> As he and Majority Leader Mitch McConnell battle over government funding, the Senate minority leader said on Tuesday that he's fretting that Trump will balk at a short-term spending bill during the Democratic effort to oust him from office.


----------



## Johnny b

Another of Trump's people and a disturbing connection.

If anyone remembers Blackwater Security from the days of GW Bush's Invasion of Iraq and the torture of Iraqis soldiers and citizens by the hand of Blackwater, well it changed it's name to become G4S and is in the news again. Only it's about their presence in our society as security guards.... and that they hire the worst of humanity who inflict abuses they are hired to stop.

And note, there is a connection between the founder of Blackwater and our president, Donald Trump.
Erik Prince.
Erick Prince's sister is Betsy Devos, current Secretary of Education that obviously has no credentials for such a position.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Betsy_Devos#Early_life


> She graduated from Calvin College in Grand Rapids, Michigan, where she earned a Bachelor of Arts degree in business economics in 1979


The current exposure of Prince and his band of mercenaries:

* A security empire deployed guards with violent pasts across the U.S. Some went on to rape, assault or kill *
https://www.usatoday.com/in-depth/n...us-guards-low-cost-security-g-4-s/3994676002/

It's very long article. But all of it important.

This is essentially a silent, almost invisible army, a militia, within the US.
With political tensions as great as they are and Trump positioning a possible civil war over his impeachment,

there should be a concern about any involvement in hostilities from G4S .

Interesting article:
* Blackwater and the Corporate Mercenaries who've changed the rules of war *
https://www.nationofchange.org/2018/02/01/blackwater-corporate-mercenaries-whove-changed-rules-war/

Searching for a list of G4S contracts involving the US government was inconclusive, but their own online pdf stated elements of our government they were involved with:

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct...K_online.htm&usg=AOvVaw2nDgGEvkDfAWkebXEzck3g


> G4S's years of exemplary service to the Federal Government is substantiated by experience with
> the following agencies:
> •
> U.S. Department of Homeland Security
> •
> U.S. Department of the Interior
> •
> U.S. Department of Justice
> •
> Federal Communications Commission
> •
> Federal Protective Services
> •
> General Services Administration
> •
> National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration
> •
> U.S. Department of Veteran's Affairs


And now, Trump controls the quality of education, and has a link to what is essentially a mercenary army.

All in one person that he hired.


----------



## Johnny b

This is rich.
In order to not confuse Trump (  ? ) Nunes pulled out the expert on Ukraine and inserted a 'yes' man with out any qualifications instead, to report to Trump.

* Testimony: Nunes acolyte misrepresented himself to Trump as Ukraine expert *
https://www.politico.com/news/2019/...ted-himself-to-trump-as-ukraine-expert-061763



> Lt. Col. Alexander Vindman also testified on Tuesday that the National Security Council staffer, Kash Patel, fed the president disinformation about Ukraine.
> 
> But he ( edit: Vindman ) was instructed "at the last second" not to attend the debriefing, Vindman told lawmakers, because Trump's advisers worried it might confuse the president: Trump believed at the time that Kashyap Patel, a longtime Nunes staffer who joined the White House in February and had no discernible Ukraine experience or expertise, was actually the NSC's top Ukraine expert instead of Vindman.


The WhiteHouse: Crooks, fools and idiots. Trumpers all.


----------



## Wino

It's simple and easy to fool an ignoramus.


----------



## Johnny b

Especially if he needs a reason


----------



## Johnny b

Donald IVANOVYCH Trump and the Pro-Russian lackey from Ky.

*Thanks to Rand Paul, Russian Media Are Naming the Alleged Whistleblower *
https://www.thedailybeast.com/thank...-are-naming-the-alleged-ukraine-whistleblower



> Outing "the whistleblower" is the most egregious, but certainly not the only, example of Kremlin-funded media cheerleading the fight against impeachment. They love "their" Trump.


What follows in the article is the opinion of Russian state news and propaganda, their media and political personalities supportive of Trump making Russia Great Again.


----------



## Chawbacon

Johnny b said:


> Donald IVANOVYCH Trump and the Pro-Russian lackey from Ky.
> 
> *Thanks to Rand Paul, Russian Media Are Naming the Alleged Whistleblower *
> https://www.thedailybeast.com/thank...-are-naming-the-alleged-ukraine-whistleblower
> 
> What follows in the article is the opinion of Russian state news and propaganda, their media and political personalities supportive of Trump making Russia Great Again.


I agree that Rand Paul should have let this particular dog lie; however, we have to give most of the credit to the RealClearInvestiagtions website, and Adam Schiff's crew of Democrats and their inept attempt at thorough redaction most of the credit. Eric's name has been floating around for a little over a week; but, for Schiff to allow it to be printed in an official transcript is a major unforced error. Granted, I don't like using the below as sources here; but, it appears that the primary references are accurate, once you get past all of the political rhetoric.

https://noqreport.com/2019/11/07/er...rs-testimony-transcript-released-adam-schiff/
https://www.realclearinvestigations...biden_brennan_dnc_oppo_researcher_120996.html


----------



## Johnny b

It appears Ciaramella's name was bandied about in DC circles and known as the whistleblower before Paul and the Russians made it Public.
This is not exactly shocking news.
The general press seemed to be backing away from publicly exposing him for an unspecified time.

About all it does is get Paul off the hook in the eyes of the public and show Schiff as less than competent at keeping secrets.

Not much has changed other than Ciaramella now has a target on his back with a lot of nut case Trumpers a concern of his.
At this point, investigations have proved much more damaging to Trump than the whistleblower's warning that he thought something was wrong between Trump and Zelensky.

It was bound to happen sometime.


----------



## Chawbacon

Johnny b said:


> At this point, investigations have proved much more damaging to Trump than the whistleblower's warning that he thought something was wrong between Trump and Zelensky.


Well... Since the hearings (so far) have been closed and with only selective transcripts/statements/leaks by Schiff's Democrats on the committee having been made public, we will have to wait until the open hearings begin to obtain a better insight into what may/may not actually be damaging to Trump, or the Democrats.

Personally, I think that people really have to deliberately read the guilt into, or deliberately read all potential misconduct out of, the released phone call between Trump and the Ukrainian President for multiple reasons.

The Democrats on the hill need to remember that impeachment of a sitting President is a very serious issue that needs to be very clear-cut for the American electorate to accept the narrative. Using Impeachment as a tool to simply bludgeon the political opposition repeatedly is probably not a good image to put in front of the voters.


----------



## Johnny b

Chawbacon said:


> ...............
> 
> Personally, I think that people really have to deliberately read the guilt into, or deliberately read all potential misconduct out of, the released phone call between Trump and the Ukrainian President for multiple reasons.
> 
> ..............................


I expect nothing less from you, Jack.
Never have from the get go.

You are a Trumper.

All signs so far point to a corrupt President. Except, of course, Trump's denials (  )

Will the Senate find him guilty?
I'm doubting it. 
McConnell passed judgement long ago before current revelations and seems to be sticking with 'innocent'.
Can he keep all the Rep Senators in line? Time will tell.


----------



## Chawbacon

Johnny b said:


> All signs so far point to a corrupt President. Except, of course, Trump's denials (  )


Question: Exactly what did Trump do that was corrupt when it comes to Ukraine?

Answer: He asked Ukraine to investigate probable corruption (billion dollar bribery) that was bragged about by Biden during a speech.

History: For those individual's unaware... Then VP Biden held up a Billion dollars in aid from the US to Ukraine, unless a Ukrainian prosecutor was fired within six hours. The prosecutor was subsequently fired within the six hours and the Billion dollars was provided to the Ukraine; but, the potential corruption arises because Biden's son was serving on the board of a big Energy Company and receiving a $80,000 monthly pay. Oh... by the way, Biden's son had ZERO experience in the oil and gas industry and ZERO experience in Ukraine. Not suspicious at all.

What the Trump haters want the answer to be: Trump held up U.S. aid to Ukraine and used bribery tactics to pressure Ukraine into investigating Joe Biden who is a political rival.

More History: The U.S. had already given anti- tank missiles to the Ukraine before the questionable conversation. The Ukrainian President did not know he was a target of bribery. The additional U.S. aid discussed was provided to the Ukraine, without Ukraine opening an investigation concerning this issue and then VP Biden.

Trump Hater Analysis: Trump wanted and intended to commit a crime. Just because Trump is too stupid to bribe someone correctly, that does not mean he is innocent, and we are going to call it criminal anyways.

Trump Supporter Analysis: So... No understanding of bribery between President Trump and Ukraine and the aid was provided without an investigation of Biden occurring. This means no crime occurred.

My Analysis: This is all a grey area; however, it is very difficult to find someone guilty of a crime without an actual crime having been committed. So basically.... Here we are, back to the thought police claiming to know what you are thinking, then claiming that your thoughts are criminal, and then wanting to convict people for what they think you are thinking.


----------



## Johnny b

Chawbacon said:


> Question: Exactly what did Trump do that was corrupt when it comes to Ukraine?
> 
> Answer: He asked Ukraine to investigate probable corruption (billion dollar bribery) that was bragged about by Biden during a speech.
> ......................


Trump tied economic support of Ukraine, to a Ukrainian investigation of a potential political opponent where the issues appear as an unfounded conspiracy theory.
A political bribe.

It's simply illegal.

As far as corruption, it was Biden seeking to remove the corruption with in Ukrainian 
state owned gas companies, not a bribe for personal benefit as Trump was doing.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/poli...178618-f1cf-11e9-b648-76bcf86eb67e_story.html

Taking in the above article give context to the statement you refer to here:

https://www.realclearpolitics.com/v...to_ukraine_to_force_firing_of_prosecutor.html

Biden was doing what he was supposed to do. He sought an anti corruption stance.
Having his son work for one of the companies certainly looked bad to many, but nothing has surfaced showing anything of impropriety.

And this would lead one to think that Trump was perhaps also upset the Russians were losing influence because of Biden's anti corruption position.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/nati...80ee60-fcc5-11e9-ac8c-8eced29ca6ef_story.html



> Some argued that Trump saw Ukraine as an impediment to better U.S. relations with Russian President Vladimir Putin, who was angry about U.S. sanctions imposed on Moscow for its annexation of Crimea and for the Kremlin's ongoing support of pro-Russian separatists in eastern Ukraine.


----------



## Johnny b

Chawbacon said:


> ............
> 
> My Analysis: This is all a grey area; however, it is very difficult to find someone guilty of a crime without an actual crime having been committed. So basically.... Here we are, back to the thought police claiming to know what you are thinking, then claiming that your thoughts are criminal, and then wanting to convict people for what they think you are thinking.


Well, of course, you're the resident Trump apologist.


----------



## Wino

It seems Trumpers can't see the forest for the trees. There is proper quid pro quo and then there is illegal quid pro quo - the orange blob is guilty of the latter and wouldn't know the former if it bit him on the butt.


----------



## Johnny b

Pay to Play.......Trump style.

* Possible pay-to-play scheme for ambassador role in Trump administration uncovered by CBS News *

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/doug-m...sador-role-in-trump-administration-uncovered/

And that was just for a simple ambassadorship.

How many hundreds of millions did the Ruskies commit to electing Trump?
(BTW, that was rhetorical  but I'll bet Rudy knows  )


----------



## Chawbacon

Good Grief! This is an extremely serious issue that could have a significant impact on almost every household in the country. You would think that CNN could grow up for at least one article and cover this as adults instead of acting like 5th graders throwing a tantrum because it's not their turn on the swing set.

While I did not appreciate the signature delay by President Trump, I can also understand that there seems to be a realistic, global, political/economic stability issue with signing these into law. Hopefully, the several day delay tactic will be a net positive with U.S. China relations.

*



Trump's risky move on Hong Kong

Click to expand...

*


> https://www.cnn.com/2019/11/29/opinions/trump-signs-hong-kong-bills-risky-move-bociurkiw/index.html
> 
> (CNN)President Donald Trump's tantrum diplomacy can often be summed up as unpredictable, counterintuitive and self-serving. But his decision to sign two bills supporting the pro-democracy movement in Hong Kong shows that the President can occasionally do the right thing, even if it isn't necessarily for the right reasons.


----------



## Johnny b

Chawbacon said:


> Good Grief! This is an extremely serious issue that could have a significant impact on almost every household in the country. You would think that CNN could grow up for at least one article and cover this as adults instead of acting like 5th graders throwing a tantrum because it's not their turn on the swing set.
> .............................


Huh?



> https://www.cnn.com/2019/11/29/opinions/trump-signs-hong-kong-bills-risky-move-bociurkiw/index.html
> 
> President Donald Trump's tantrum diplomacy can often be summed up as unpredictable, counterintuitive and self-serving.


Well.....yeah.
Trump can also be seen as an erratic fool demanding everyone by a ticket to his 'foolishness'.

*Trump claims Americans have to flush the toilet '10 times, 15 times, as opposed to once' *
https://www.cnn.com/2019/12/07/politics/trump-americans-flushing-toilets-intl/index.html

(once? Like once a day? Or like once every 10 to 15 trips to the bathroom?  )
And for that, he dedicates a rant:


> Trump, speaking in the Roosevelt Room of the White House amid an impeachment inquiry, then turned his attention to Americans attempting to wash their hands.
> "You go into a new building or a new house or a new home and they have standards only you don't get water. You can't wash your hands practically, there's so little water comes out of the faucet. And the end result is you leave the faucet on and it takes you much longer to wash your hands," Trump said.
> He went on: "There may be some areas where we'll go the other route -- desert areas -- but for the most part you have many states where they have so much water -- it comes down, it's called rain. They don't know what to do with it," to laughs from around the table. "So we're going to be looking at opening up that I believe. And we're looking at changing the standards very soon."


Will Trump be impeached with 'dirty hands'? ( lol! )

So?
Who is crazier?
Trump, or those that 'buy' a ticket to ride his train to insanity..... !

I'm just glad I have my own well


----------



## Wino

Trump took alphabet soup speaking lessons from the master, Sarah Palin. Their grasp of subjects is non-existent and nonsensical.


----------



## Johnny b

If the Trump economy was truly as great as Trumpers brag, this would have shown signs of improving:

* 'It's really over': Corporate pensions head for extinction as nature of retirement plans changes *

https://www.usatoday.com/story/mone...ons-defined-benefit-mercer-report/2618501001/

( lock him up 

even if it's only a mental ward  )


----------



## Chawbacon

Johnny b said:


> If the Trump economy was truly as great as Trumpers brag, this would have shown signs of improving:
> 
> * 'It's really over': Corporate pensions head for extinction as nature of retirement plans changes *
> 
> https://www.usatoday.com/story/mone...ons-defined-benefit-mercer-report/2618501001/
> 
> ( lock him up
> 
> even if it's only a mental ward  )


Surprisingly, the USA article was appropriately informative without going into the bash Trump LaLa Land mentality. A very nice change towards civility.

Here we go again. Let's find a way to blame President Trump for everything that can be remotely associated as potentially influenced by the President, regardless of the reality of the situation. We can all agree that President Trump makes enough questionable decisions/statements without deliberate misrepresentations being added into the mix. 
Did you happen to notice that President Trump's name is not referenced once within the article. 

Suggestion... Try reading that link within your referenced document. It just might enlighten you. 



> *Say goodbye to defined-benefit pensions:*4 reasons the corporate pension is on its deathbed


----------



## Johnny b

Chawbacon said:


> Surprisingly, the USA article was appropriately informative without going into the bash Trump LaLa Land mentality. A very nice change towards civility.
> 
> Here we go again. Let's find a way to blame President Trump for everything that can be remotely associated as potentially influenced by the President, regardless of the reality of the situation. We can all agree that President Trump makes enough questionable decisions/statements without deliberate misrepresentations being added into the mix.
> Did you happen to notice that President Trump's name is not referenced once within the article.
> 
> Suggestion... Try reading that link within your referenced document. It just might enlighten you.


And we have the opinion of the resident apologist again, unable to admit to the realities of the Trump economy.

If the Trump economy is so great, why are pension plans showing these signs of increasing financial stress with projected failure?

It's a reality Trumpers seem to hate to address 

Trump is at the helm. There is no one else to blame for his actions. 

Or......
Are you inadvertently claiming he's someone's puppet?

Could be 



> Try reading that link within your referenced document.


Try an attempt at critical thinking 

If you want to brag about something, you need to have something to brag about.
That link you refer to contains considerations Trumpers obviously ignore out of convenience when on the 'brag'.

https://www.usatoday.com/story/mone...ns-defined-benefit-plans-are-dead/3898630002/



> Taken together, the moves illustrate how corporate America has largely ditched pensions, which are swiftly becoming a thing of the past for active employees who don't work for the government.


Oh....the paradox! 
Apparently that's what taxpayers are for


----------



## Chawbacon

Hmm... Looks like I hit a nerve there. 

The bottom line is that the business sector has been slowly moving away from pension plans for many, many years.

But for the other readers of this thread, the information that Johnny dismissed and referred to as "considerations Trumpers obviously ignore out of convenience," happens to be quite relevant to the conversation and clearly indicates that a changed investment landscape and cost savings for the company are the primary forces driving the movement away from pension plans.

Here is the list highlights:

Pensions are seen as expensive, risky
Union power has diminished
401(k)s have been normalized
Public companies are under pressure to reduce pension debt
Feel free to read more on the details: https://www.usatoday.com/story/mone...ns-defined-benefit-plans-are-dead/3898630002/


----------



## Johnny b

Chawbacon said:


> Hmm... Looks like I hit a nerve there.
> 
> The bottom line is that the business sector has been slowly moving away from pension plans for many, many years.
> 
> But for the other readers of this thread, the information that Johnny dismissed and referred to as "considerations Trumpers obviously ignore out of convenience," happens to be quite relevant to the conversation and clearly indicates that a changed investment landscape and cost savings for the company are the primary forces driving the movement away from pension plans.
> 
> Here is the list highlights:
> 
> Pensions are seen as expensive, risky
> Union power has diminished
> 401(k)s have been normalized
> Public companies are under pressure to reduce pension debt
> Feel free to read more on the details: https://www.usatoday.com/story/mone...ns-defined-benefit-plans-are-dead/3898630002/




Nothing has changed, Jack.
What is posted in that link is reality and Trump isn't addressing it, Trumpers ignore those problems and the bragging goes as if there's nothing wrong in the economy.

Pensions are not gifts. They are payments into a fund for employees after retirement, effectively a financial benefit associated with their contractual working agreements.....in effect, a percentage of their salaries paid into a fund for future use.
Elimination/reduction decreases an employees effective salary.
These negative forces have always been there that impose on the viability of funding, but as noted in those links, the pace of failure is increasing.

That in relation to Trump's claimed robust economy is a contradiction.

All you can fabricate are excuses for a reality. 
Trump's economy is a facade.


----------



## Johnny b

And I didn't even address the catastrophic debt load Trump has been manufacturing.


----------



## Chawbacon

Johnny b said:


> And I didn't even address the catastrophic debt load Trump has been manufacturing.


On the above... I agree completely!

Back on topic though, I think you missed a critical line within the original article you referenced:



> https://www.usatoday.com/story/mone...ons-defined-benefit-mercer-report/2618501001/
> 
> The number of *pension plans offering defined benefits - which means the payouts are guaranteed - plummeted by about 73% from 1986 to 2016*, according to the Department of Labor's Employee Benefits Security Administration.


And the decline of pension availability is all President Trump's fault? Right?

The reality here is that the financial investment landscape has changed significantly over the last 30 years. To think that President Trump has the ability to somehow magically restore the viability of pension plans is quite the stretch.


----------



## Johnny b

Chawbacon said:


> On the above... I agree completely!
> 
> Back on topic though, I think you missed a critical line within the original article you referenced:
> 
> And the decline of pension availability is all President Trump's fault? Right?
> 
> The reality here is that the financial investment landscape has changed significantly over the last 30 years. To think that President Trump has the ability to somehow magically restore the viability of pension plans is quite the stretch.


You're simply confused 

You and fellow Trumpies like to brag until the reality of the status of the economy is pointed out and then it's someone else's fault 



> And the decline of pension availability is all President Trump's fault? Right?


Well, I didn't make that claim 
I realize you'd like me to, but it didn't happen, Jack. 

Again, how can the economy be as great as you Trumpies brag when not only has there been no turn around with the pension dilemma, the instability of them is escalating!
If the economy was as wondrous as Trump and his minions claim, we wouldn't be having this discussion. 

Jack, sophistry and spin won't get you any points on this issue.
You are simply using that Trumpian fall back plan of denial and diversion


----------



## Chawbacon

Johnny b said:


> Well, I didn't make that claim
> I realize you'd like me to, but it didn't happen, Jack.


I never said that you did make that claim. That is what is known as a rhetorical question. 


Johnny b said:


> Again, how can the economy be as great as you Trumpies brag when not only has there been no turn around with the pension dilemma, the instability of them is escalating!


Again... The financial landscape has changed significantly in the last 30 years.

When companies look at bottom lines, money managers, and long term financial commitments to pension plans, it should not come as a surprise that pension plans are a dying breed. Companies would rather offer investment matching and let the employees manage their own retirement plans.



Johnny b said:


> If the economy was as wondrous as Trump and his minions claim, we wouldn't be having this discussion.


Well, we are having this discussion; because, I am pointing out that it is unrealistic to think that the financial policy of any President can halt the demise of pension plans. Simply put, pension plans are an outdated mode of retirement planning for a multitude of reasons; but, if you still think that the 8-Track is the best way to listen to music, no one is stopping you from buying them as Christmas presents (assuming that they are available on Ebay)... Boogie Down!


----------



## Johnny b

Chawbacon said:


> ................
> 
> Well, we are having this discussion; because, I am pointing out that it is unrealistic to think that the financial policy of any President can halt the demise of pension plans. Simply put, pension plans are an outdated mode of retirement planning for a multitude of reasons; but, if you still think that the 8-Track is the best way to listen to music, no one is stopping you from buying them as Christmas presents (assuming that they are available on Ebay)... Boogie Down!


In other words, when it's claimed the Trump economy is the greatest ever, it's just BS?
( rhetorical question ... )

First words I posted to this discussion:

https://forums.techguy.org/threads/the-trump-term-of-office.1183765/page-102#post-9658408



> If the Trump economy was truly as great as Trumpers brag, this would have shown signs of improving:
> 
> 'It's really over': Corporate pensions head for extinction as nature of retirement plans changes
> 
> https://www.usatoday.com/story/mone...ons-defined-benefit-mercer-report/2618501001/


From the USAToday link:


> The practice of companies sending monthly retirement checks to their former workers is headed for extinction, and remaining pension funds are in tough financial shape.
> 
> Nearly two-thirds of pension funds are considering dropping guaranteed benefits to new workers within the next five years, according to a human resources consulting firm that studied the matter.
> 
> Despite gains in the stock market this year, U.S. pension plans are near their worst financial state in two years, according to the new report by Mercer, which casts a spotlight on the escalating cost of past promises to employees.


All you have is spin and denial, Jack.
There are no signs of improvement, to the contrary, the situation is deteriorating.
It's a contradiction to the bragging, Jack


----------



## Chawbacon

Ok... There is a lot of information in this article... A big problem that jumps out are the "17 significant inaccuracies and omissions" that occurred during the FISA application and FISA renewal process. Even if all of the 17 issues were accidental (except for one that was referred to the DOJ), at best, this reflects extremely poorly upon the FBI while the Trump Russia collusion investigation was ongoing. At worst, this will result in many individuals within the FBI being indicted.

*IG Horowitz rips FBI 'failure' in Russia probe, says nobody vindicated by report*
https://www.foxnews.com/politics/horowitz-testifies


> Justice Department Inspector General Michael Horowitz declared a "failure" by the entire "chain of command" involved in the FBI's initial Trump-Russia investigation, in blistering testimony Wednesday that called out "basic and fundamental errors" at the bureau while stressing that his newly released report on the probe does not "vindicate" anyone...
> 
> ...His 476-page report faulted the FBI for numerous errors in the FISA process, identifying at least 17 "significant inaccuracies and omissions" in the application and renewals for Page's FISA warrant. The report said that Page's FISA application omitted information that the FBI had obtained from another U.S. government agency detailing its prior relationship with Page, including that he had been "approved as an 'operational contact' for the other agency from 2008 to 2013."


----------



## Johnny b

Chawbacon said:


> .......
> 
> Well, we are having this discussion; because, I am pointing out that it is unrealistic to think that the financial policy of any President can halt the demise of pension plans. Simply put, pension plans are an outdated mode of retirement planning for a multitude of reasons; but, if you still think that the 8-Track is the best way to listen to music, no one is stopping you from buying them as Christmas presents (assuming that they are available on Ebay)... Boogie Down!


I'm pretty sure 8-Track players have nothing to do with pension plans 

Yep, you are confused


----------



## Chawbacon

Johnny b said:


> In other words, when it's claimed the Trump economy is the greatest ever, it's just BS?
> ( rhetorical question ... )
> 
> First words I posted to this discussion:
> 
> https://forums.techguy.org/threads/the-trump-term-of-office.1183765/page-102#post-9658408
> 
> From the USAToday link:
> 
> All you have is spin and denial, Jack.
> There are no signs of improvement, to the contrary, the situation is deteriorating.
> It's a contradiction to the bragging, Jack


How do you manage to ignore the basic tenant in the very quote that you just listed? "Despite gains in the stock market this year, U.S. pension plans are near their worst financial state in two years, according to the new report by Mercer, *which casts a spotlight on the escalating cost of past promises to employees*. "

Ok... I am done with this topic.


----------



## Johnny b

Chawbacon said:


> How do you manage to ignore the basic tenant in the very quote that you just listed? ...............


You are confused, Jack.
I'm not claiming what you want me to post.
I have no intention of making such ignorant claims no matter how hard you try to spin the discussion.

And it seems to frustrate you.



> Ok... I am done with this topic.


You never joined in on the topic.
My point still stands.
The corporate scene simply isn't as healthy as you perceive and the bragging is just that. Puffing.


----------



## Johnny b

It needs to be pointed out that the corporate scene with pension plan disruption isn't the only problematic area of our economy.

* Farm bankruptcies jump to highest level since 2011 as Trump's tariffs bite *
https://markets.businessinsider.com...ump-trade-war-tariffs-bite-2019-10-1028649836



> Farmers filed 580 Chapter 12 bankruptcy filings between January and September, according to the American Farm Bureau Federation, the largest farm advocacy group in the country. That was a 24% increase from the previous year and the highest level since 2011, when there were 676 filings.
> 
> ...................
> 
> Roughly 40% of farm income is expected to come from government aid, according to Department of Agriculture data analyzed by the federation.


But, but, but....I thought only Democrats were socialists.

Let's all blame Pelosi......or maybe Don Lemon


----------



## Chawbacon

Johnny b said:


> It needs to be pointed out that the corporate scene with pension plan disruption isn't the only problematic area of our economy.
> 
> * Farm bankruptcies jump to highest level since 2011 as Trump's tariffs bite *
> https://markets.businessinsider.com...ump-trade-war-tariffs-bite-2019-10-1028649836
> 
> But, but, but....I thought only Democrats were socialists.
> 
> Let's all blame Pelosi......or maybe Don Lemon


As usual... Another one-sided hit job attempt towards President Trump. 

Personally, I agree that President Trump has a lot of skin in the game here; however, there is another side to this coin that further explains the reasons (notice the plurality?) behind the causation of this particular issue. So, let's see what Forbes has to say:

*Here's Why More American Farms Are Going Bankrupt*
https://www.forbes.com/sites/jessec...erican-farms-are-going-bankrupt/#3f2b0cf065a7


> The increase in Chapter 12 filings reflects low prices for corn, soybeans, milk and even beef. The situation for most farmers has worsened since June under retaliatory tariffs that have closed the Chinese market for soybeans and damaged exports of milk and pork.
> 
> Farmers use Chapter 12 bankruptcy because it combines the simplicity of Chapter 13 bankruptcy - usually used by individuals - and the higher debt levels allowed with Chapter 11 bankruptcy - usually used by corporations. The Chapter 12 process typically allows for repayment of debt over three years...
> 
> ...Rising interest rates are the other major reason why more American farms are going bankrupt. After holding interest rates at virtually zero percent for seven years after the Great Recession, the Federal Reserve has been steadily raising interest rates for the past three years. Low interest rates encourage farmers to take on cheap debt, buy farms and expensive farm equipment, and cause farmland prices to rise.
> 
> Unfortunately, when national interest rates rise, the payments on much of that debt increase as well:...
> 
> ...Rising farm bankruptcies are further confirmation of my warnings in a recent _Forbes_ piece called "How Interest Rate Hikes Will Trigger The Next Financial Crisis." In that piece, I explained how recessions, financial crises, and mass business failures have occurred after historic interest rate hike cycles and that the current rate hike cycle wouldn't be an exception...
> 
> ...Many more casualties will come to light as this interest rate hike cycle continues. There has been so much economic distortion from a decade of record low interest rates that it's impossible to determine all of the industries that will be affected by rising rates - as Warren Buffett said, "only when the tide goes out do you learn who's been swimming naked."


----------



## Johnny b

Chawbacon said:


> As usual... Another one-sided hit job attempt towards President Trump.
> 
> Personally, I agree that President Trump has a lot of skin in the game here; however, there is another side to this coin that further explains the reasons (notice the plurality?) behind the causation of this particular issue. So, let's see what Forbes has to say:
> 
> .............


I know you're sure the trade war had absolutely nothing to do with it 

And I'm sure you'll never associate the increase in bankruptcies that began at the same time the Chinese quit buying US ag products more than just a statistical anomaly.


----------



## Johnny b

Chawbacon said:


> As usual... Another one-sided hit job attempt towards President Trump.
> .............................




Looks like I struck a nerve lol!


----------



## Chawbacon

Johnny b said:


> I know you're sure the trade war had absolutely nothing to do with it
> 
> And I'm sure you'll never associate the increase in bankruptcies that began at the same time the Chinese quit buying US ag products more than just a statistical anomaly.


Au Contraire Monsieur! I completely agree that the trade conflict with China has a lot to do with the increase in Chapter 12 bankruptcies affecting the farming industry; however, I can also understand that there are significant other factors that influence causation for these bankruptcies.

Also note that the Chapter 12 Bankruptcy is entered into with the intent of the farmer paying back the debts within 3 years... So, the farmers are anticipating a positive outcome to the U.S./China trade conflict. This may be too optimistic seeing as how China can absorb a large amount of loss over several years; however, the US has the capacity to absorb more loss than China. Regardless, a protracted standoff will not be good for the U.S. farming industry.


----------



## Johnny b

BTW Jack,

I noticed the dates on your links only cover data up to Nov 2018.
(yes, I did read them)

My link references a time period between January and September of this year.


> Between January and September, Chapter 12 bankruptcy filings rose by nearly a quarter to the highest level since 2011.


Jack, Jack, Jack.....you have issues of reading comprehension.
Your link, while correctly describing a period before the trade war,does not address the time period of the article I posted.



> https://www.forbes.com/sites/jessec...can-farms-are-going-bankrupt/#6451423e65a7Nov 29, 2018, 12:49pm
> Here's Why More American Farms Are Going Bankrupt





> http://www.startribune.com/farm-ban...y-that-far-more-are-on-the-way/501157191/Farm bankruptcies are on the rise, and bankers worry that far more are on the way
> 
> By Adam Belz Star Tribune
> November 26, 2018 - 10:29am


This is the dated article I posted:


> https://markets.businessinsider.com...ump-trade-war-tariffs-bite-2019-10-1028649836
> Farm bankruptcies jump to highest level since 2011 as Trump's tariffs bite
> Gina ****
> Oct. 31, 2019, 04:25 PM


You posted old articles that didn't cover the effects of Trump's trade war.

If you had actually read those articles you posted, you would have noticed a large influence missing


----------



## Johnny b

Chawbacon said:


> ................
> 
> Also note that the Chapter 12 Bankruptcy is entered into with the intent of the farmer paying back the debts within 3 years... So, the farmers are anticipating a positive outcome to the U.S./China trade conflict. .......................


No, Jack.
The farmers were painted into a financial corner and survival was Chapter 12.
No one declares bankruptcy as a speculative option.
And I doubt a judge even sign off on such a maneuver.


----------



## Johnny b

Chawbacon said:


> Au Contraire Monsieur! I completely agree that the trade conflict with China has a lot to do with the increase in Chapter 12 bankruptcies affecting the farming industry; however, I can also understand that there are significant other factors that influence causation for these bankruptcies.
> ......................


You disagree with me and you agree me. 

Yes.....confusion. lol!

Trump has made a difficult situation worse.
Do you agree or disagree? 



> I can also understand that there are significant other factors that influence causation for these bankruptcies.


I can too, but you get upset when I point out Trump alone, makes things even worse lol!
And he's the guy 'in charge' !


----------



## Johnny b

Chawbacon said:


> .................
> 
> This may be too optimistic seeing as how China can absorb a large amount of loss over several years; however, the US has the capacity to absorb more loss than China. Regardless, a protracted standoff will not be good for the U.S. farming industry.


Sounds like you are projecting a pyrrhic victory as a solution?
Mutual but unequal destruction.


----------



## Chawbacon

Johnny b said:


> Trump has made a difficult situation worse.
> Do you agree or disagree?


I have already agreed; but, if you need your ego stroked a bit, I will say it again... I agree.

The real question is whether, or not, President Trump's economic stand off with China will be successful in the long run. Unfortunately, I do not have a functional crystal ball, so I will have to wait and see what the actual end game will be here. I have never been a proponent of the* something has do be done *mindset. Especially when the *something actually done* was not adequately analyzed prior to implementation.

Like President Obama's failed Affordable Care Act, If President Trump's strategy is unsuccessful, the U.S/China trade conflict will be a yoke that President Trump will deservedly wear around his neck forever.


Johnny b said:


> I can too, but you get upset when I point out Trump alone, makes things even worse lol!
> And he's the guy 'in charge' !


Nah…. Not upset at all. Just willing to point out that the outrage towards President Trump is usually presented with the most negative interpretation possible without taking into account other factors.

Think of it this way... If someone leaves the dessert at home, it does not mean that the picnic is ruined, that the basket is empty, and that everyone is going to starve as a result. You make the best of the situation by drinking the pop and eating the chips and sandwiches. Now, if the whole picnic basket was left at home, then you give them all kinds of grief. Unless it was Mom's fault of course. Then you better shut your mouth either way!


----------



## Johnny b

Chawbacon said:


> .......... I agree.
> 
> The real question is whether, or not, President Trump's economic stand off with China will be successful in the long run. Unfortunately, I do not have a functional crystal ball, so I will have to wait and see what the actual end game will be here. I have never been a proponent of the* something has do be done *mindset. Especially when the *something actually done* was not adequately analyzed prior to implementation.
> 
> Like President Obama's failed Affordable Care Act, If President Trump's strategy is unsuccessful, the U.S/China trade conflict will be a yoke that President Trump will deservedly wear around his neck forever.
> 
> Nah…. Not upset at all. Just willing to point out that the outrage towards President Trump is usually presented with the most negative interpretation possible without taking into account other factors.
> 
> Think of it this way... If someone leaves the dessert at home, it does not mean that the picnic is ruined, that the basket is empty, and that everyone is going to starve as a result. You make the best of the situation by drinking the pop and eating the chips and sandwiches. Now, if the whole picnic basket was left at home, then you give them all kinds of grief. Unless it was Mom's fault of course. Then you better shut your mouth either way!





> The real question is whether, or not, President Trump's economic stand off with China will be successful in the long run.



Yes, that is a question.
BYW, what is your definition of success ( after the long run of financial pain and suffering is over that is  )





> Unfortunately, I do not have a functional crystal ball, so I will have to wait and see what the actual end game will be here.


In other words, you don't have a clue. (  this is too easy )



> I have never been a proponent of the* something has do be done *mindset. Especially when the *something actually done* was not adequately analyzed prior to implementation.


You mean like...... Trump's trade wars?

I think I'm seeing a contradiction, Jack.
You don't know if a trade war will work, but we are having one anyway?



> Like President Obama's failed Affordable Care Act, If President Trump's strategy is unsuccessful, the U.S/China trade conflict will be a yoke that President Trump will deservedly wear around his neck forever.


That attitude seems a bit cavalier to me.
With failure, the 'yoke' will actually be on the public sector, not so much the politician.
It will be the public that suffers. 
I doubt Trump would even care. It doesn't seem to be in his nature so long as his orders are followed.



> Just willing to point out that the outrage towards President Trump is usually presented with the most negative interpretation possible without taking into account other factors.


Sure 



> If someone leaves the dessert at home, it does not mean that the picnic is ruined, that the basket is empty, and that everyone is going to starve as a result. You make the best of the situation by drinking the pop and eating the chips and sandwiches. Now, if the whole picnic basket was left at home, then you give them all kinds of grief. Unless it was Mom's fault of course. Then you better shut your mouth either way!


So, Trump is your 'mommy' ........and you'll do anything, accept anything with out question?
Well, that explains a lot


----------



## Wino

Stole this from another site:

"There are two types of trump supporters, billionaires and idiots. Check your bank account to see which you are."


----------



## Johnny b

Worth a read:

* We Are Republicans, and We Want Trump Defeated *

https://www.nytimes.com/2019/12/17/opinion/lincoln-project.html


----------



## Wino

Trump has sullied the office of American president forevermore - there is no going back, I fear.


----------



## Wino

Impeached!! The human stain has another stain on his "legacy"!


----------



## Johnny b

This could get interesting and I suspect the Trumpites will whine about it.
Endlessly.
True, it's political tricks, but that's all politics in the US has become.

* Pelosi says House may withhold impeachment articles, delaying Senate trial *
https://www.washingtonpost.com/poli...25814a-21c5-11ea-a153-dce4b94e4249_story.html



> Moments after a historic vote to impeach President Trump, House Speaker Nancy Pelosi said the House could at least temporarily withhold the articles from the Senate - a decision, she suggested, that could depend on how the other chamber chooses to conduct its trial on Trump's removal.
> 
> "We cannot name managers until we see what the process is on the Senate side," she said, referring to the House "managers" who present the case for removal to the Senate. "So far we haven't seen anything that looks fair to us. So hopefully it will be fair. And when we see what that is, we'll send our managers."
> 
> The comments came as a group of House Democrats pushed Pelosi (D-Calif.) and other leaders to withhold the articles - a notion that has gained traction among some on the political left as a way of potentially forcing Senate Majority Leader Mitch McConnell (R-Ky.) to conduct a trial on more favorable terms for Democrats. And if no agreement is reached, some have argued, the trial could be delayed indefinitely, denying Trump an expected acquittal.


Let the whining begin lol!


----------



## Johnny b

It's amazing how the Trump administration keeps repeating the same/similar headlines even with Impeachment looming.
It's said 'history repeats itself', but that used to mean from one generation to the next, not the same calendar year 










* 
Trump administration opposes bill meant to deter Russia
*
https://www.cnn.com/2019/12/19/poli...p-administration-opposition-letter/index.html

BTW.....the guy in the photo is the Russian Foreign Minister.
imo, Trump looks a little too satisfied .


----------



## Chawbacon

Johnny b said:


> This could get interesting and I suspect the Trumpites will whine about it.
> Endlessly.
> True, it's political tricks, but that's all politics in the US has become.
> 
> * Pelosi says House may withhold impeachment articles, delaying Senate trial *
> https://www.washingtonpost.com/poli...25814a-21c5-11ea-a153-dce4b94e4249_story.html
> 
> Let the whining begin lol!


Why whine? If Pelosi wants to delay sending over Articles of Impeachment to the Senate, why should anyone, except the Democrats even care? President Trump will not be found guilty by the Senate based upon the merit within the Articles of Impeachment. But ok, so Pelosi uses delay tactics and accordingly the Senate will not start debate on how the impeachment trial will proceed in the Senate until the Articles of Impeachment have been received from the House.... meh.

All those Trump haters out there need to remember that the Democrats have been calling for and conducting a speedy impeachment process; because, they claim that President Trump is a National Security Threat to the Integrity of the 2020 Election. So, yeah, I get it now. Pelosi delaying the impeachment process; because, the Senate will not conduct a lopsided Impeachment Trial favoring the Democrat agenda, is definitely the best political tactic that will impress, awe, and appease, the majority of the Trump hating political piranhas.


----------



## Chawbacon

Johnny b said:


> It's amazing how the Trump administration keeps repeating the same/similar headlines even with Impeachment looming.
> It's said 'history repeats itself', but that used to mean from one generation to the next, not the same calendar year
> 
> View attachment 273619
> 
> 
> *
> Trump administration opposes bill meant to deter Russia
> *
> https://www.cnn.com/2019/12/19/poli...p-administration-opposition-letter/index.html
> 
> BTW.....the guy in the photo is the Russian Foreign Minister.
> imo, Trump looks a little too satisfied .


Funny comments Johnny. I needed that laugh. 

Of note though, the article covers almost nothing about the reason that there is push back from the Trump White House. there is a high level discussion; but, no real meat explaining what the underlying opposition is:


> The State Department did not immediately reply to a request for comment about the letter, which said the administration opposes the bill because it "risks crippling the global energy, commodities, financial and other markets."


At least the article, by it's existence, shows us that there is a legitimate concern, and contention, surrounding ongoing sanctions against Russia; but, individuals will have to read the underlying documentation to better understand the back and forth here.


----------



## Johnny b

Chawbacon said:


> .........................
> 
> So, yeah, I get it now. ..................


Doubtful.


----------



## Johnny b

Chawbacon said:


> Funny comments Johnny. I needed that laugh.
> 
> Of note though, the article covers almost nothing about the reason that there is push back from the Trump White House. there is a high level discussion; but, no real meat explaining what the underlying opposition is:
> 
> At least the article, by it's existence, shows us that there is a legitimate concern, and contention, surrounding ongoing sanctions against Russia; but, individuals will have to read the underlying documentation to better understand the back and forth here.


I sense that article really got under your skin 

It's merely 'same old, same old' Trump romance with authoritarian rulers that approve his style of destructiveness.
Doesn't hurt, either, to have the support of one in an upcoming election.


----------



## Johnny b

Localized or a coming trend?

* Christianity Today, influential evangelical magazine, says Trump 'should be removed from office' *
https://www.usatoday.com/story/news...-says-trump-should-removed-office/2704963001/



> Influential evangelical magazine, Christianity Today, released an editorial Thursday calling for President Donald Trump to be removed from office.
> 
> "That he should be removed, we believe, is not a matter of partisan loyalties but loyalty to the Creator of the Ten Commandments," the magazine's editor-in-chief, Mark Galli, penned.
> 
> ...........
> Galli wrote, "To the many evangelicals who continue to support Mr. Trump in spite of his blackened moral record, we might say this: Remember who you are and whom you serve. Consider how your justification of Mr. Trump influences your witness to your Lord and Savior."
> 
> "He has hired and fired a number of people who are now convicted criminals. He himself has admitted to immoral actions in business and his relationship with women, about which he remains proud. His Twitter feed alone-with its habitual string of mischaracterizations, lies, and slanders-is a near perfect example of a human being who is morally lost and confused," they stated.


----------



## Johnny b

Interesting poll:

* Cracks appear in Donald Trump's support from evangelicals over impeachment, poll shows *
https://finance.yahoo.com/news/cracks-appear-donald-trumps-support-013301021.html



> More than four in 10 evangelical Christians would approve of Donald Trump being impeached and removed from office following a Senate trial, according to a new poll.
> 
> It came after Christianity Today, a prominent evangelical magazine, called last week for the president's removal and described his actions as "profoundly immoral."


I wonder how many of those evangelicals that support Trump realize they are 
violating the second most important Commandment.
I often wonder if they even know what it is, or even care if they do know.


----------



## Johnny b

Another impeachment?

Or just new charges to be tacked on?

(  )

* House says it needs Don McGahn's testimony for Senate trial and because Trump could face more articles of impeachment *
https://www.cnn.com/2019/12/23/poli...il&utm_term=0_84015bed88-5866cfb423-108237437

* A second impeachment? *
https://www.cnn.com/2019/12/24/politics/impeachment-watch-december-23/index.html

Not exactly earth shattering news......
Never ending crime is what you get when electing mobsters.


----------



## Wino

My understanding, once impeachment approved, no more charges can be added. This would require another impeachment process to cover newer charges. I find it appropriate that Turnip should be impeached multiple times for his putrid legacy of criminality.


----------



## Johnny b

Wino said:


> My understanding, once impeachment approved, no more charges can be added. This would require another impeachment process to cover newer charges. I find it appropriate that Turnip should be impeached multiple times for his putrid legacy of criminality.


I get the impression it would be up to the Senate to investigate new evidence to the House's charges, but under the current circumstances, that's not likely to happen.

All things considered, it would be interesting to see one charge after another leading to the election.
Trump and associates have had almost 3 years to achieve and have committed a lot of nasties.


----------



## Johnny b

In spite of it all, 
Have a Merry Christmas, Wayne
And a Happy New Year


----------



## Wino

Seasons greetings to you and yours!!

I'd love to see impeachments piling up all the way to Nov. 2020. They cannot hound this man enough to satisfy me.

I saw another article today (By Fox) asking what you would give DJT for Xmas - my gift would be a 50T mine truck full of coal be dumped at the entrance to each and every hotel, club, building or property under his ownership and a double dose at the White House, one at front door and one at helipad. I'm in no mood to be magnanimous to this scumbag. BAH !!! HUMBUG!!!!


----------



## steppenwolf

liberals say hes mentally ill at same time threatening him like kathy griffin with severed head-maybe all the negative words drove him over the edge,so he killed the Iranian?possibly


----------



## Johnny b

steppenwolf said:


> ................maybe all the negative words drove him over the edge........................


He seems to have always been like that


----------



## steppenwolf

no grins no smiles


----------



## Johnny b

He seems to have always been like that 

Works either way 
lol.


----------



## Chawbacon

Let's hope that Iran does not make a very bad decision here and retaliate against the United States. If we know anything about how President Trump reacts to threats of any kind, it is to retaliate against the source of the attack.



> *Trump warns Iran: US has targeted '52 Iranian sites' and will 'hit very fast and very hard' if needed*
> https://www.foxnews.com/world/iran-trump-warns-iran-we-have-targeted-52-iranian-sites
> "Let this serve as a WARNING that if Iran strikes any Americans, or American assets, we have targeted 52 Iranian sites (representing the 52 American hostages taken by Iran many years ago), some at a very high level & important to Iran & the Iranian culture, and those targets, and Iran itself, WILL BE HIT VERY FAST AND VERY HARD," Trump said Saturday, explicitly laying out that the U.S. will act if Iran retaliates.


----------



## Johnny b

Chawbacon said:


> Let's hope that Iran does not make a very bad decision here and retaliate against the United States. If we know anything about how President Trump reacts to threats of any kind, it is to retaliate against the source of the attack.





> Let's hope that Iran does not make a very bad decision here and retaliate against the United States.


I think we agree on this, it was a bad decision for Iran to have used Soleimani in planning/organizing an attack on our embassy. Even worse to put him in close proximity, for him that is.



> If we know anything about how President Trump reacts to threats of any kind, it is to retaliate against the source of the attack.


But we don't know that.
Trump achieved the office of the Presidency while an enemy of the US interfered with our democratic election process.
To date, nothing has been done.
Nothing done to secure our elections.
Nothing done to the Russians for their intrusion.
Worse, Trump and supporters not only have denied Russian aggression, they've tried to divert blame to the Ukraine as a political mechanism to further their own political ambitions.

Will Trump respond to further Iranian aggression?
Most likely.
It's an issue that goes beyond defending the US.
It makes him look strong and determined to further the safety of the US, with an upcoming election while facing potential removal from office.

Trump, in reality, is leveraging history to be re-elected.
In a perverse manner, Trump needs a villain worse than himself. 
But a villain he can defeat.

Iran hasn't a nuclear arsenal at this time, but North Korea does.

Little Rocket Man smiles.
For Putin, it's a 'win win' no matter what happens.


----------



## Chawbacon

Johnny b said:


> Will Trump respond to further Iranian aggression?
> Most likely.
> It's an issue that goes beyond defending the US.
> It makes him look strong and determined to further the safety of the US, with an upcoming election while facing potential removal from office.


Well, Iran did do something stupid; however, President Trump deescalated (militarily) instead of knocking the snot out of them.


----------



## Johnny b

Chawbacon said:


> Well, Iran did do something stupid; however, President Trump deescalated (militarily) instead of knocking the snot out of them.


You just contradicted your earlier assessment of Trump. 

https://forums.techguy.org/threads/the-trump-term-of-office.1183765/page-105#post-9664481



> If we know anything about how President Trump reacts to threats of any kind, it is to retaliate against the source of the attack.


* Iran attack: US troops targeted with ballistic missiles *
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-51028954

Fortunately, Trump didn't react to 'threats of any kind' in the manner you earlier suggested.
And how do you think the World now views a blowhard bully after that?
Respectful....or relieved the fool was just spouting off again?

The idiot shouldn't be making that kind of threat to start with and then not backing it up only made him look weak.

Of note: Obama drew 'lines in the sand' in the Ukraine several times and the Russians obviously laughed at him


----------



## Johnny b

Trump seems to fear Bolton testifying to the Senate, where Moscow Mitch has already declared Trump innocent.

* Trump says he may invoke executive privilege if John Bolton is subpoenaed by Senate *
https://www.usatoday.com/story/news...ilege-if-bolton-subpoenaed-senate/4437569002/



> President Donald Trump suggested in a Fox News interview Friday that he would invoke executive privilege if former national security adviser John Bolton was subpoenaed for the Senate impeachment trial.
> 
> Bolton said earlier this week that he is "prepared to testify" in the trial - if he's subpoenaed by the Republican-controlled chamber.
> 
> "I have concluded that, if the Senate issues a subpoena for my testimony, I am prepared to testify," Bolton stated.




Talk about a fraidy cat lol!


----------



## Johnny b

Lev Parnas in the news again 

* Giuliani associate: 'President Trump knew exactly what was going on' in Ukraine *

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news...new-exactly-what-going-on-ukraine/4483807002/

Essentially, Trump lies, lies and lies some more lol!


----------



## Johnny b

Oh my!
Lev............

* Giuliani associate implicates Trump in Ukraine scheme *

https://www.cnn.com/2020/01/16/politics/lev-parnas-cnn-interview/index.html



> Lev Parnas, the Soviet-born businessman whose work in Ukraine with President Donald Trump's personal attorney Rudy Giuliani stands at the center of the impeachment inquiry, implicated the President Wednesday in an interview with CNN in which he said that their efforts were "all about 2020" and not about working in the interest of the United States.
> "That was the way everyone viewed it," Parnas told CNN's Anderson Cooper, disputing Trump's claim that the push to unearth damaging information about his political rival, Democratic presidential candidate and former Vice President Joe Biden, stemmed from concerns about corruption in Ukraine.
> "That was the most important thing," Parnas said, "for him to stay on for four years and keep the fight going.* I mean, there was no other reason for doing it."*


Lev............ I am shocked (  )



> When Trump denied any association with Parnas following the indictment, Parnas turned on him.
> "The truth is out now, thank God," he said. "I thought they were going to shut me up and make me look like the scapegoat and try to blame me for stuff I haven't done," he said.
> Of Trump, he asserted: "He's lying."


Really now, Lev. What did you expect, he is after all Donald John Trump, billionaire real estate developer and malicious opportunist extraordinaire.


----------



## Johnny b

Trump was worried about corruption in the Ukraine concerning Burisma?
Get a load of this:

* Trump wanted to repeal an anti-corruption law so US businesses could bribe foreigners *
https://www.vox.com/2020/1/15/21067426/very-stable-genius-washington-post-bribery-law-trump



> This comes from a new book by Washington Post reporters Philip Rucker and Carol Leonnig, who won a Pulitzer Prize as part of a larger team covering Trump and Russia, titled A Very Stable Genius: Donald J. Trump's Testing of America. ......
> 
> ***************
> 
> Trump and then-Secretary of State Rex Tillerson tussled over the Foreign Corrupt Practices Act of 1977. That law, according to the Justice Department, makes it "unlawful for certain classes of persons and entities to make payments to foreign government officials to assist in obtaining or retaining business."
> 
> Trump, the Post reports, bristled at that restriction.
> 
> "It's just so unfair that American companies aren't allowed to pay bribes to get business overseas," Trump reportedly told Tillerson. "We're going to change that."


* New book portrays Trump as erratic, 'at times dangerously uninformed' *
https://www.washingtonpost.com/poli...45bf44-370f-11ea-a01d-b7cc8ec1a85d_story.html



> "It's just so unfair that American companies aren't allowed to pay bribes to get business overseas," Trump says, according to the book. "We're going to change that."
> 
> The president, they go on to explain, was frustrated with the law "ostensibly because it restricted his industry buddies or his own company's executives from paying off foreign governments in faraway lands."


Shocking, just shocking I tell you! (  )
So unexpected! (  )


----------



## Johnny b

Isn't it time for some denials?


----------



## Johnny b

No denials yet?
Well, here's some more.
Elements have been reported in the media , but here it is again collectively.

A threat to our National Security.

*'You're a bunch of dopes and babies': Inside Trump's stunning tirade against generals *

https://www.washingtonpost.com/poli...dbb8a6-387e-11ea-bb7b-265f4554af6d_story.html

Too much to even try some copy and paste, but imo a must read.


----------



## Chawbacon

Johnny b said:


> Isn't it time for some denials?


Nah. No need for denials. Still waiting for something to be posted worth denying. 


Johnny b said:


> You just contradicted your earlier assessment of Trump.
> 
> https://forums.techguy.org/threads/the-trump-term-of-office.1183765/page-105#post-9664481


I think you are the confused on this time pal. 

Granted, my prognostication about President's Trump expected reaction to an Iranian response/aggression against U.S. assets was incorrect (and I am glad that it was incorrect); however, acknowledging that I was incorrect on the said prediction in no way indicates that I have created a contradiction on the point.

Sometimes it is dizzying how you can read a GOTCHA point into the most innocuous statements. Entertaining though; but, dizzying. 

By the way... My posting here that there is nothing worth denying and then posting a denial on a previous post since my last visit... Now that IS a contradiction.


----------



## Johnny b

Chawbacon said:


> Nah. No need for denials. Still waiting for something to be posted worth denying.
> 
> I think you are the confused on this time pal.
> 
> Granted, my prognostication about President's Trump expected reaction to an Iranian response/aggression against U.S. assets was incorrect (and I am glad that it was incorrect); however, acknowledging that I was incorrect on the said prediction in no way indicates that I have created a contradiction on the point.
> 
> Sometimes it is dizzying how you can read a GOTCHA point into the most innocuous statements. Entertaining though; but, dizzying.
> 
> By the way... My posting here that there is nothing worth denying and then posting a denial on a previous post since my last visit... Now that IS a contradiction.





> No need for denials. Still waiting for something to be posted worth denying.


Denial of denial. 

:up:



> I think you are the confused on this time pal.
> 
> Granted, my prognostication....



https://www.google.com/search?client=firefox-b-1-d&q=prognostication


> prog·nos·ti·ca·tion
> /präɡˌnästəˈkāSHən/
> Learn to pronounce
> noun
> noun: prognostication
> 
> the action of foretelling or prophesying future events.
> "an unprecedented amount of soul-searching and prognostication"
> a prophecy.
> plural noun: prognostications
> "these gloomy prognostications proved to be unfounded"


So, in essence, your debate logic is based on
*" foretelling or prophesying future events "*

That I would agree 



> By the way... My posting here that there is nothing worth denying and then posting a denial on a previous post since my last visit... Now that IS a contradiction.





> however, acknowledging that I was incorrect on the said prediction ( edit: foretelling or prophesying future events )in no way indicates that I have created a contradiction on the point.




Are you trying to confuse us?


----------



## Johnny b

The twisted logic of Senator Lindsey Graham.
Graham claims the right of a President to conceal crimes in the impeachment process.

* Graham, Dershowitz say effort to dismiss articles of impeachment 'dead' as they prepare for trial *
https://www.usatoday.com/story/news...nd-trump-before-impeachment-trial/4517945002/



> As to the charge of obstruction of Congress, Graham said it was an attempt to "put Trump below the law" by impeaching him for attempting to claim his right to executive privilege. He said rushing the process and not giving the court's time to rule on what is protected by privilege posed a threat to the power of the executive branch of government.
> 
> "You impeach a president. You don't let him to exert executive privilege in the House. You deny him or her their day in court," Graham said. "You've destroyed executive privilege through the impeachment process. That would really make the presidency far less effective and would hurt the constitutional balance of power."


----------



## Johnny b

I am astounded management of Fox News allowed this opinion article to be posted:

*Mary Anne Marsh: Impeachment trial's core question: are we still a republic? *

https://www.foxnews.com/opinion/mar...-trials-core-question-are-we-still-a-republic



> The request to interfere in the 2020 election and the denial of aid to Ukraine are the basis for the article on the abuse of power.
> 
> Trump's obstruction of Congress is equally clear.
> 
> From the beginning, Trump has blocked requests for testimony, documents and witnesses. Even the transcript of the call, which the White House claims was complete, was edited.
> 
> If Trump did nothing wrong, he should have let administration officials testify before the House committees investigating the call. It's not too late. Former National Security Advisor John Bolton, Acting Chief of Staff Mick Mulvaney, and other relevant witnesses can still appear before the Senate trial. But as the trial prepares to open this week, there is still no guarantee that witnesses will be called.


And this is the scary part for Russian sympathizers in Congress if a fair trial were held:



> * The fact is a full and fair trial could reveal more evidence of wrongdoing by Trump and members of his administration. This can't be ignored. *





> So what will it be in 2020? We the people? Or one person?
> 
> A republic. Or a monarchy? Or worse?


----------



## Brigham

I just caught Trump's interview at Davos. He was extolling all he had done for America. As a politician I would have expected him to be challenged if it was all lies, but the interviewer did not do so. If it was all lies, how the minority groups in the USA have benefitted from the booming economy, what is going on? Are all the interviewers incompetent?


----------



## Johnny b

As far as the stock market goes, those that own stock are doing well.
But most Americans don't have much, if anything, invested in stocks and bonds.
The fact that many Americans don't have sufficient savings for retirement makes it obvious lower middle class and middle class aren't benefiting from market gains.


> Are all the interviewers incompetent?


Why one reporter would avoid following up on Trump's claim is on that reporter. There are articles too frequent in the main stream media describing my comments.

The economy has been good for some people. Especially those already wealthy.


----------



## Wino

Turnip doesn't normally call on any reporter that may refute or ask questions about his truthiness. If he said it, it's a lie, so what's the use?? He lies upon lies and no one questions him in fear of being berated - bunch of sissies and whiners - IMHO.


----------



## Brigham

Wino said:


> Turnip doesn't normally call on any reporter that may refute or ask questions about his truthiness. If he said it, it's a lie, so what's the use?? He lies upon lies and no one questions him in fear of being berated - bunch of sissies and whiners - IMHO.


That doesn't say much for your media people. (fear of being berated)


----------



## Wino

Tell me about it!!


----------



## Johnny b

Maybe the both of you should try reading more of the various news media?

* Trump Admits to Withholding Evidence From Impeachment Inquiry *
https://www.thedailybeast.com/trump-admits-to-withholding-evidence-from-impeachment-inquiry

Now use the search terms:
* "Honestly, we have all the material. They don't have the material," *

https://www.google.com/search?q=“Ho...AhVNheAKHWGrCVkQ8tMDegQIDBAu&biw=1214&bih=729

If you didn't read any one of those links, news media links, that's on you not the news media.

IMO, Trump is likely to skate through the Senate unhindered , not because of the press, because too much of the general public agrees with Trump's criminal behavior and fascist ( aka Nationalist ) leanings and empower his supporters in the GOP to coverup Trump's criminal activities.

Just look at how open Trump has been.
All he has to do is deny he's made specific statements, deny he's been caught on tape, video, camera and of course Twitter(  ) and his followers automatically chant 'innocent', after those denials are publicly shown otherwise.

Our society is failing.

A response to Trump is a rise in popularity of a hard core socialist.

Our society IS failing.


----------



## Wino

Actually, it's hard core fascism on the rise with a huge plunge toward kakistocracy.

It started with a B actor (Reagan), then GWB and now the rich white trash of Trumpism. Righties are drawn to ignorance like a moth to flame and I expect similar results as the nation continues it's decline at home and around the world.


----------



## Johnny b

Wino said:


> Actually, it's hard core fascism on the rise with a huge plunge toward kakistocracy.
> 
> It started with a B actor (Reagan), then GWB and now the rich white trash of Trumpism. Righties are drawn to ignorance like a moth to flame and I expect similar results as the nation continues it's decline at home and around the world.


Actually, no argument there.

Actually, the response to it is a rise in the support of the other political extreme, socialism.


----------



## Johnny b

Example of that rise in extremist/hard core socialist support:

Dated 01/22/20 05:00 AM EST
* Sanders holds 4-point lead on Biden in new California poll *
https://thehill.com/homenews/campaign/479188-sanders-leads-in-california-poll



> Sen. Bernie Sanders (I-Vt.) is leading the crowded Democratic primary field in California, according to a new poll from the University of Southern California's Rossier School of Education/PACE.
> 
> The survey showed Sanders with a 28 percent lead among California voters who said they planned to vote in the Democratic primary. Former Vice President Joe Biden follows in second place at 24 percent support.


----------



## Wino

Neither Bernie or Biden are my favorites, but anyone is better than Trump. I expect we would survive four years of attempted socialism, but not sure if we would with another four of Trumpism OR it will take decades to correct the damage Trump has done to date while we are still being screwed by the GWB years. A slow slide down a 500 foot razor into a vat of alcohol is a fair analogy.


----------



## Johnny b

I don't do 'lesser of two evils' anymore.

IMO, the current socialist way in the US is only a slower method of societal destruction than fascism.

If you want to go to extreme analogies......which is worse:
A Hitler as a leader or a Stalin?
ie....it doesn't matter, an outcome is horrific either way.

Biden I could tolerate because I do not see him as an intentionally destructive leader.
Not so with Sanders, Warren and those that align with their extreme socialist causes.

The final choices will be through the primaries and if the general public keeps promoting the nomination of destructive candidates, those choices will continue to divide our nation as it sinks into 3rd world status.

What's yours is mine, what's mine me own ......doesn't really work that well


----------



## Johnny b

2020 Congressional District Census
Commissioned by the Republican Party

Comments?


----------



## Wino

I'm on the RNC mailing list because I voted in a reptile primary some years back. I get these polls about 2-3 times a year. They are always good for a bunch of chuckles. I used to complete and return with a request to take me off their mailing list. I drop envelope in street side postal box as I refuse to put a stamp on it and my postman won't pick up if no postage. Haven't received one lately after return of last one several months ago which, in very bold letters and vile wording in the style of their prez, I again asked them to remove me from their mail list.

I expect these are like the "prayer letters" sent to the TV religion con people and hit the trash bin without being read after the check is removed.

Like any poll, the questions are leading and there aren't enough response boxes to mark that would show how one truly feels. In any case, I've not voted for a reptilian since the late 90's and their current candidate insures I never will. I vote in every election - local, state, federal - as it's about the only way I can make a point. Being in red Texas, it seems a bit futile at times, but we must 'persevere' as Chief Dan George says in "Josie Wales".


----------



## Johnny b

Since Trump took office, I get one every other month.
I never respond.


----------



## Johnny b

Attack dog, Jim Jordan:

* Rep. Jordan to become top Republican on Judiciary Committee, reports say *
https://www.daytondailynews.com/new...committee-reports-say/90r13R8WQwLt1fJpAj5lLK/

This is a guy still facing law suits, when as an athletic coach, for ignoring that his wrestlers were being sexually abused by a sports doctor ( who wound up committing suicide).

* New lawsuit further alleges Ohio US Rep. Jim Jordan knew of former Ohio State doctor's abuse *
https://www.wkyc.com/article/sports...abuse/95-0e70134f-5fc9-492f-9a03-cfd3d934a4ab

* Referee says he told Rep. Jim Jordan that Ohio State doctor performed sex act in shower *
https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/referee-says-he-told-rep-jim-jordan-ohio-state-doctor-n1078476

* Lawsuit: Rep. Jim Jordan Knew About Strauss Sexual Abuse During Coaching Tenure at OSU *
https://www.clevescene.com/scene-an...ss-sexual-abuse-during-coaching-tenure-at-osu



> An independent report by law firm Perkins-Coie released in May says that Strauss, who killed himself in 2005, sexually abused at least 177 male students during his 1979-1998 tenure at OSU.


And now he's being rewarded, for supporting Trump and rabidly attacking those that criticize Trump for his illegal, immoral, unethical activities.

This is draining the swamp?

Anyone really think Jordan + Justice is beneficial for our society?

A minimum of 177 victims and he wasn't even a politician at the time


----------



## Wino

Jim Jordan aka "Gym" Jordan, for obvious reasons. Just another Trump acolyte in the fashion of "Moscow Mitch" McConnell and "Lamprey Lindsay" Graham. Toadies all.


----------



## Johnny b

No doubt the Trumpies will cheer this on 

* Amid coronavirus outbreak, Trump proposes slashing CDC budget *
https://arstechnica.com/science/202...-outbreak-trump-proposes-slashing-cdc-budget/



> Amid an explosive outbreak of a novel coronavirus in China that has killed over 1,000 and sickened over 43,000 worldwide, US President Donald Trump proposed a nearly 19 percent budget cut to the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention-the agency primarily tasked with preparing for and responding to such outbreaks and other serious health threats.


Now there's a good argument that Trump and his allies hate humanity.



> Heart disease, cancer, and diabetes are the leading causes of death and disability in the United States. Trump proposes cutting roughly $427 million in funding for the chronic disease category-a roughly 34.5 percent drop from enacted 2020 spending.


Tough love?


hmmmm!

But birds vs. wind turbines Trump cares about.

( third world here we come )


----------



## Johnny b

* Trump says military may consider disciplinary action against Vindman *
https://www.politico.com/news/2020/02/11/trump-military-disciplinary-action-vindman-114161

Said the draft dodger with supposed bone spurs, about a decorated Military Officer that witnessed Trump's 'perfect' ( aka criminal but Senate approved ) attempted quid pro quo shake down of the Ukrainian government in an attempt to implicate a possible opposing Presidential candidate in corruption.

This must really chafe Trump's heinie:
(  )



> And in an interview with Cheddar on Tuesday, U.S. Army Secretary Ryan McCarthy said Vindman was scheduled to come back to the Army in May after completing his detail assignment to the NSC. He said Vindman will be sent to Senior Service College, where he will "learn how to take on greater responsibility and strategic leadership."


The military seems to look favorably on Vindman as they want him to be trained for greater things.

https://www.cs.amedd.army.mil/borde...px?docid=83d7c7e1-e68f-45fa-8653-e800b3240d2b


> This chapter discusses the process for selection to attend Senior Service
> College (SSC) and the available options for completing the training.
> SSC represents the Department of Defense's highest level of officer
> professional military education, military education level (MEL) 1.


----------



## Johnny b

Lindsey Graham takes a shellacking on Face the Nation:

* Transcript: Lindsey Graham on "Face the Nation," February 9, 2020 *
https://www.cbsnews.com/news/lindsey-graham-ukraine-bidens-rudy-giuliani-face-the-nation-2020-02-09/

It is truly amazing the intricate stories 'alternate truthers' weave in their attempt to deceive.
The contradictions are astounding!!


----------



## Johnny b

Jim (aka Gym) Jordan in the news again:

* Ex-OSU wrestler: Rep. Jordan called 'crying, groveling, begging' to deny sexual abuse claims *
https://www.usatoday.com/story/news...-begged-him-deny-osu-abuse-claims/4741555002/

* Rep. Jim Jordan accused of participating in OSU sexual abuse cover-up by ex-wrestler *
https://www.aol.com/article/news/20...exual-abuse-cover-up-by-ex-wrestler/23924478/

* Jim Jordan accused of 'begging' former Ohio State wrestler not to support reports of sexual abuse *
https://www.washingtonpost.com/poli...5e7314-4ded-11ea-bf44-f5043eb3918a_story.html

With all the coverups going on in the Trump administration, the surprise isn't that Jordan committed the above, the surprise is... it's acceptable by so many voters and up to now, Justice.

:down:


----------



## Johnny b

( Jordan again )

* 'He's obviously very proud of his body': All the weird ways Trump complimented his GOP attack dogs *

https://www.politico.com/news/2020/02/06/trump-compliments-republican-supporters-111602

Funny ( in a sick kind of way ) what Trump idolizes .

But then, even that's not a surprise since he's been associated with issues ranging from golden showers to porn stars to Epstein to adultery .

He's a man of the world that gets (it) around.


----------



## Wino

Johnny b said:


> I don't do 'lesser of two evils' anymore..................................................


Me neither under normal circumstances. In this case, I'll make an exception. The daily compounding of criminality by this administration and it's justice department require elimination of this cabal of idiots and gangstas.


----------



## Johnny b

IMO, it depends what the trade off is.
Survivability is an issue, among others.

I don't see it with the likes of a Warren and especially Sanders.
They promise an Eden built on monetary confiscation of targeted groups.
Trump promises an Eden through Nationalism ( fascism ) which is an enrichening of the state.......in effect also a confiscation, just different targets.

Both eventually bring social breakdown.


----------



## Wino

There is NO person on the Dem side that could or would do damage to this nation as the current white trash in four years if elected. Even if the Dems took both houses of congress and presidency, they will spend the entire term attempting to right the ship. If McConnell remains, whether majority or minority, nothing much will get done, but hopefully, at least, Trump will be history and headed for prison along with most of his minions and family (my wet dream).


----------



## Johnny b

Wino said:


> There is NO person on the Dem side that could or would do damage to this nation as the current white trash in four years if elected. ........................


Other than the likes of a Warren or a Sanders.
Just a different vector.

Depravity?

Just look how the extremes of socialism wound up in the USSR and Yugoslavia.
If China hadn't made some concessions to capitalism, they'd likely have wound up the same....but look how poorly they've been addressing the latest epidemic.
Their society still suffers the intolerance of socialist totalitarianism. It's still prone to failure.

And the irony is, socialism needs absolute control to carry out the plans that eventually destroy their social/economic models.

IMO, there is no argument that positions one absolute ( socialism vs fascism ) as better than the other.


----------



## Johnny b

Tucker Carlson seems to have become a protector of the KKK and white supremacist movement. ( and other stuff )
IMO, not much of a surprise.

IMO, just another racist elitist with a lot of spin.

* Fox's Carlson calls white supremacy 'a hoax.' *
https://apnews.com/e0f9f2ea88dc435db914c8e53dcaf59e

*You Know What Tucker Carlson Believes *
https://newrepublic.com/article/155995/know-tucker-carlson-believes


----------



## SeanLaurence

Johnny b said:


> Other than the likes of a Warren or a Sanders.
> Just a different vector.
> 
> Depravity?
> 
> Just look how the extremes of socialism wound up in the USSR and Yugoslavia.
> If China hadn't made some concessions to capitalism, they'd likely have wound up the same....but look how poorly they've been addressing the latest epidemic.
> Their society still suffers the intolerance of socialist totalitarianism. It's still prone to failure.
> 
> And the irony is, socialism needs absolute control to carry out the plans that eventually destroy their social/economic models.
> 
> IMO, there is no argument that positions one absolute ( socialism vs fascism ) as better than the other.


Chin up Johnny. The kind of socialism on offer from the likes of Bernie & Liz is nothing like what was seen in the Communist eastern block. Even with a hypothetical Democrat sweep of both houses in the 2020 election, Bernie wouldn't be able to get his most radical policy ideas passed. There are plenty of Dem congresspeople and senators that need to answer to a more conservative electorate.


----------



## Johnny b

SeanLaurence said:


> Chin up Johnny. The kind of socialism on offer from the likes of Bernie & Liz is nothing like what was seen in the Communist eastern block. Even with a hypothetical Democrat sweep of both houses in the 2020 election, Bernie wouldn't be able to get his most radical policy ideas passed. There are plenty of Dem congresspeople and senators that need to answer to a more conservative electorate.


Chin up, Sean, but you still haven't addressed your claim you had a solution to the problem of hatred and violence within the US. Do you really think you, a supporter of the 'free ride in life' have a solution to our economic and social problems in the US? 

Neither Bernie nor Warren are expected to be able to beat Trump.
If the Democrat party is serious about a win in 2020, the party will avoid the extreme radicalization of Commie Sanders and Pocahontas Liz the fake capitalist .
Nomination of either is a sure win for Trump.
It's just the way it is in a country, you as a foreigner, haven't a clue about.
The majority in the US simply do not like socialism.

As much as Trump is reviled, socialism more so and Sanders and Warren represent not only radical elements, but the most improbable promises possible so far. Well, other than draining a swamp.

Enjoy the free ride you have in Canada.....while you can.


----------



## Johnny b

This one's for you Sean 

* Let's try to protect the 2020 election. Here's how to prove you're not a Russian troll. *

https://www.usatoday.com/story/opin...al-media-how-to-fight-back-column/4749642002/



> But socialism is far less attractive to the American public generally; the same Gallup poll showed that 53% of Americans would oppose a socialist as chief executive. In fact, "socialist" ranked lowest of all the characteristics Gallup tested, whether age, gender, race or religion, and was the only one facing majority opposition.


53% is a majority and I have no doubt those Ruskies playing the long game would have no reservations into backing a loser just to tear apart our society.
Considerations:
Trump would win......a disaster in the making.
A miracle happens and commie Sanders wins, the Ruskies still have an easier path to their objectives with the US economically out of the way.

So, comrade, just how long have you lived in North America? 
I see you still misspell the city you live in LOL! ( oops! )


----------



## SeanLaurence

I don't have a solution to the problem of racism in America. I did however watch an interesting NOVA (PBS) documentary on the subject a few months ago:
https://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/video/the-violence-paradox/

You have a tendency to make assumptions. You have no idea what I know about your country. I live 40 km from the US border, and am inundated with US media.
You also asserted that I hate you. How can I hate you when I don't know you? I have never stated that I hate you. For the record: I do not hate you.

Did you watch the Dem debate last night? Do you think that Bloomberg will buy his way into the White House?


----------



## Johnny b

SeanLaurence said:


> I don't have a solution to the problem of racism in America. ................................


!!!!!!!!!!!


----------



## Johnny b

SeanLaurence said:


> .................
> 
> You have a tendency to make assumptions. You have no idea what I know about your country. .......................


I know how to spell the name of the city I live in. Does that count?


----------



## Johnny b

SeanLaurence said:


> .................
> You also asserted that I hate you. How can I hate you when I don't know you? I have never stated that I hate you. For the record: I do not hate you.
> 
> ......................


Glad to hear that...wheew!!



But about your claims to solve gun violence in the past.
You were rather assertive with out any reasonable explanations.
Don't you think it's proper to understand your neighbors to the south before you suggest/demand arbitrary solutions involving who we ( not you Canadian citizens ) choose to lead??

Let us face it......you *really* don't like my position in support of the 2nd Amendment of our Constitution.
Nor apparently my support of a democracy.


----------



## Johnny b

SeanLaurence said:


> ...................
> 
> Did you watch the Dem debate last night? Do you think that Bloomberg will buy his way into the White House?


Nope, I have a life


----------



## SeanLaurence

From the USA today Article you linked:
"Perhaps the worst part of all this is that we do a lot of the Russians' work for them. While there are hundreds of thousands, if not millions, of online troll accounts, there are also constant accusations across social media that genuine posters (usually ones the accuser disagrees with) are actually Russian trolls. For someone bent on damaging this country, you could not do better than ramping up our paranoia and destroying our sense of trust."

If you wanted, I am sure you could get a moderator to check my IP address to confirm that I always post from my home in Coquitlam, BC. Would that be enough to convince you that I am not a Russian Troll?

There is no equivalent to certifiedvoter.com in Canada, in fact, the page blocks access if I attempt to look at it.

In US election law, there is no restriction on ideas disseminated by non Americans. Restrictions only kick in when money is is involved. It is perfectly legal for me to cross the boarder with some art supplies, and make a poster advocating for Tulsi Gabbard, and stand on a street corner waving it around. If I were to buy you a cup of coffee and tell you to vote for Pete Buttogeg, I would be in violation of the law. 
Not that anyone would come after me - it seems that DJT has left the FEC without a quorum.
https://www.bloomberg.com/opinion/a...mission-needs-members-to-stop-2020-vote-crime


----------



## SeanLaurence

Johnny b said:


> Nope, I have a life


You do? Then why is it that you were available to respond to my message immediately after I posted it?

I know you are not a fan of DJT - wouldn't it be prudent to select someone you could vote for? Or do you plan to sit out the November election, or perhaps just vote downballot.


----------



## Johnny b

SeanLaurence said:


> From the USA today Article you linked:
> "Perhaps the worst part of all this is that we do a lot of the Russians' work for them. While there are hundreds of thousands, if not millions, of online troll accounts, there are also constant accusations across social media that genuine posters (usually ones the accuser disagrees with) are actually Russian trolls. For someone bent on damaging this country, you could not do better than ramping up our paranoia and destroying our sense of trust."
> 
> If you wanted, I am sure you could get a moderator to check my IP address to confirm that I always post from my home in Coquitlam, BC. Would that be enough to convince you that I am not a Russian Troll?
> 
> There is no equivalent to certifiedvoter.com in Canada, in fact, the page blocks access if I attempt to look at it.
> 
> In US election law, there is no restriction on ideas disseminated by non Americans. Restrictions only kick in when money is is involved. It is perfectly legal for me to cross the boarder with some art supplies, and make a poster advocating for Tulsi Gabbard, and stand on a street corner waving it around. If I were to buy you a cup of coffee and tell you to vote for Pete Buttogeg, I would be in violation of the law.
> Not that anyone would come after me - it seems that DJT has left the FEC without a quorum.
> https://www.bloomberg.com/opinion/a...mission-needs-members-to-stop-2020-vote-crime





> If you wanted, I am sure you could get a moderator to check my IP address to confirm that I always post from my home in Coquitlam, BC. Would that be enough to convince you that I am not a Russian Troll?


You're way too sensitive, Sean LOL!
However, I do know how to spell all the cities and villages around *me* 



> In US election law, there is no restriction on ideas disseminated by non Americans. Restrictions only kick in when money is is involved. It is perfectly legal for me to cross the boarder with some art supplies, and make a poster advocating for Tulsi Gabbard, and stand on a street corner waving it around.


But if you wave that poster while wearing a Canadian flag, the attention you get will be different 



> If I were to buy you a cup of coffee and tell you to vote for Pete Buttogeg, I would be in violation of the law.


First, who is * Buttogeg * and then why would anybody want to vote for him? 
But if Pete Buttigieg's past is looked up, you'll find he once supported taxing wealth before he realized it was unpopular and associated with Warren.

Just another politician with promises.



> Not that anyone would come after me .......


You could buy coffee for Donald and I wouldn't care, Sean.

But this is a debate forum and I still haven't seen your solution to gun violence.


----------



## SeanLaurence

Johnny b said:


> You're way too sensitive, Sean LOL!
> However, I do know how to spell all the cities and villages around *me*
> But if you wave that poster while wearing a Canadian flag, the attention you get will be different
> First, who is * Buttogeg * and then why would anybody want to vote for him?
> But if Pete Buttigieg's past is looked up, you'll find he once supported taxing wealth before he realized it was unpopular and associated with Warren.
> Just another politician with promises.
> You could buy coffee for Donald and I wouldn't care, Sean.
> But this is a debate forum and I still haven't seen your solution to gun violence.


I am not sure where this suggestion that I can't spell the name of my hometown thing is coming from. Have you even shared the name of your town? I assume it is somewhere near Dayton Ohio.
And I apologize for spelling "Buttigieg" incorrectly. Not to you, but to Pete and his family.

The topic for this board is "The Trump Term of Office" - so I am not discussing gun violence here. 
You must have missed the part where I posted a link to a Nova episode, and declared that "I don't have a solution to the problem of racism in America" Actually, I meant to say "violence" instead of "racism".


----------



## Johnny b

SeanLaurence said:


> You do? Then why is it that you were available to respond to my message immediately after I posted it?
> 
> I know you are not a fan of DJT - wouldn't it be prudent to select someone you could vote for? Or do you plan to sit out the November election, or perhaps just vote downballot.





> You do? Then why is it that you were available to respond to my message immediately after I posted it?


This is my 'Happy Hour' 



> I know you are not a fan of DJT - wouldn't it be prudent to select someone you could vote for? Or do you plan to sit out the November election, or perhaps just vote downballot.


You seem confused.
Maybe because it's because ....*You don't live in the US.*?

There are only 2 major political parties here.
Trump has seized the Republican Party, structure and support. And after that failed Impeachment in the Senate, I doubt there is anyone that can or will run against him for nomination that has any chance of success.
This coming primary, I'll be declaring myself an Independent.

Who I'll vote for the Presidency depends on whose names are on the ballot.
Definitely not Trump nor Sanders/Warren.
The rest is 'up in the air' so to speak.

Of interest:
I read a while back that the refusal of Sander's supporters to vote for H Clinton was a large factor in her losing.

Old article, but worth considering how loyal socialist democrats are to the Democrat Party 

* Bernie Sanders Voters Helped Trump Win and Here's Proof *
https://www.newsweek.com/bernie-sanders-trump-2016-election-654320

They appear to be 'playing a long game' themselves.


----------



## Johnny b

SeanLaurence said:


> I am not sure where this suggestion that I can't spell the name of my hometown thing is coming from. ................


Your personal page where you state where you live and even link to a map with the correct spelling. 
You actually made 2 spelling mistakes on that page.

The name of the city you live in contains an 'L'


----------



## Johnny b

SeanLaurence said:


> ...................
> 
> The topic for this board is "The Trump Term of Office" - so I am not discussing gun violence here.
> .........................


Obviously.
Still waiting on your solution in the Gun thread.
What? You thought I'd forget?



I wouldn't forget that


----------



## Johnny b

SeanLaurence said:


> ................. Have you even shared the name of your town? I assume it is somewhere near Dayton Ohio.
> ..............................




Keep searching


----------



## SeanLaurence

Johnny b said:


> Your personal page where you state where you live and even link to a map with the correct spelling.
> You actually made 2 spelling mistakes on that page.
> 
> The name of the city you live in contains an 'L'


Thanks for pointing out my misspellings.


----------



## Johnny b

Good catch, Sean. 

Now we all know how to correctly spell 'Coquitlam'


----------



## Johnny b

So, comrade.....how's the weather up north?


----------



## SeanLaurence

Johnny b said:


> So, comrade.....how's the weather up north?


Cold and sunny, but you could have looked up the weather report yourself.

Regarding the old Newsweek article - Yes, There were many people who did not support Hillary in the 2016 election. I blame the unregulated use of Facebook by Russians and unscrupulous opponents to spread outright lies about her. My own mother (formerly very liberal and not american) to this day believes that Pizza-gate was a real thing. She would have voted for Trump in the belief that Hillary was a pedophile!
How do you even counter that? 
https://www.theatlantic.com/magazin...ticle&utm_campaign=10-for-today---4.0-styling


----------



## Johnny b

SeanLaurence said:


> Cold and sunny, but you could have looked up the weather report yourself.
> 
> Regarding the old Newsweek article - Yes, There were many people who did not support Hillary in the 2016 election. I blame the unregulated use of Facebook by Russians and unscrupulous opponents to spread outright lies about her. My own mother (formerly very liberal and not american) to this day believes that Pizza-gate was a real thing. She would have voted for Trump in the belief that Hillary was a pedophile!
> How do you even counter that?
> https://www.theatlantic.com/magazin...ticle&utm_campaign=10-for-today---4.0-styling





> Cold and sunny, but you could have looked up the weather report yourself.






> I blame the unregulated use of Facebook by Russians and unscrupulous opponents to spread outright lies about her. My own mother (formerly very liberal and not american) to this day believes that Pizza-gate was a real thing. She would have voted for Trump in the belief that Hillary was a pedophile!
> How do you even counter that?


Sean, there is a tide of dissatisfaction overwhelming our society.
Truth and facts have become commodities to sell in the form of propaganda.
Sides are forming, directed by these 'truths and facts' but all they wind up being are extremes in support of those seeking power, the source of the propaganda.

Counter it?
Start with improving education.
Teach critical thinking.
Reject absolutism as an argument.

Will that happen?
I don't see it in a near future, Sean.
It seems too many are sold on quick fixes that appeal to emotions.

Our experiment in democracy is in jeopardy because there are extremists on the right and left seeking power by influencing and creating dissatisfaction.

Just look at how Pizza-Gate came about:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pizzagate_conspiracy_theory

Why would a sane person would believe such crap from such despicable sources?
Well, emotions and pre-conceived opinions.

Why do sane people think the expenditures a Sanders or Warrens need are sustainable?
Pretty much the same as above.

So...are they really sane?
Not when their actions are governed in those manners.

These are insane times, my comrade friend


----------



## Johnny b

Hmmmmm?
Is this going to be a 'game changer'?

* Former congressman confirms he offered to broker pardon for Assange *
https://arstechnica.com/tech-policy...irms-he-offered-to-broker-pardon-for-assange/



> A former California congressman confirmed in an interview with Yahoo News' Michael Isikoff that he did offer to broker a pardon for Julian Assange in exchange for information that would exonerate Russia from the theft of emails from the Democratic National Committee and members of the Hillary Clinton presidential campaign organization. Republican Dana Rohrabacher was seeking to prove that the emails were leaked by DNC staffer Seth Rich, who was murdered in July 2016-and were not the product of a hacking campaign by Russian intelligence organizations.


Yahoo News:

https://news.yahoo.com/rohrabacher-...of-russia-didnt-hack-dnc-email-131438007.html



> Former California Republican congressman Dana Rohrabacher confirmed in a new interview that during a three-hour meeting at the Ecuadorian Embassy in August 2017, he told Julian Assange he would get President Trump to give him a pardon if he turned over information proving the Russians had not been the source of internal Democratic National Committee emails published by WikiLeaks.


----------



## Johnny b

* Reports: Intelligence official warned lawmakers that Russia was interfering in 2020 to help Trump *
https://www.usatoday.com/story/news...0-official-told-lawmakers-reports/4825498002/



> First reported by the New York Times, the February 13 briefing led to Trump reprimanding Acting Director of National Intelligence Joseph Maguire, and accused him of being disloyal after aide Shelby Pierson told lawmakers aggressive Russian actors were continuing election-intrusion from 2016.


I can almost see it now:

Trump fisting the air and leading the rabid red hatted MAGAs in a chant to Jail Maguire.....Jail 'em!....Jail 'em!

Welcome to the 'new normal'.



> Pierson addressed Russia's overall efforts, including weaponizing social media, hacking, and diminishing election infrastructures, according to reports. She was not well perceived by House lawmakers who are loyal to Trump, according to CNN.


The crowd roars as the fist pumping begins: Jail Shelby....Jail Shelby!!!!!

Oh well, just another day on Capital Hill


----------



## Johnny b

Looks like Trump's trade war with the world has done more damage to the Agricultural Industry than originally thought.

* Trump promises an even bigger farmer bailout if needed *
https://finance.yahoo.com/news/trump-promises-an-even-bigger-farmer-bailout-193824825.html



> President Trump's latest tweet indicated that more aid could be headed to farmers adversely affected by the U.S.-China trade war.
> 
> In an all-caps tweet, he wrote: "If our formally targeted farmers need additional aid until such time as the trade deals with China, Mexico, Canada and others fully kick in, that aid will be provided by the federal government, paid for out of the massive tariff money coming into the USA!"


Ummmmm....no...that 'tariff money' is coming out of the pockets of the American consumer.
The farmers will simply be awarded funds from obligations on the US taxpayer............ new and greater fiscal deficits.


----------



## Johnny b

And here we go with the Russian 'Long Game'.
The goal, reduce the influence of the US and press forward with unopposed acquisitions ( of other weaker nations ).

Either Russian supported candidate is essentially a win for Putin.

* Bernie Sanders briefed by US officials that Russia is attempting to help his campaign *
https://www.usatoday.com/story/news...ping-presidential-campaign-report/4835049002/



> U.S. officials have reportedly told Sen. Bernie Sanders that Russia is attempting to help his presidential campaign, a revelation that follows U.S. intelligence officials briefing Capitol Hill that the Kremlin may also be attempting to help President Donald Trump in 2020 as they did in 2016.





> "I don't care, frankly, who Putin wants to be president. My message to Putin is clear: stay out of American elections, and as president I will make sure that you do."


Maybe so, but Putin cares a lot. For Russia and their 'Long Game' it's a win-win scenario no matter which one wins.
Putin just needs to get Bernie on the Democrat ballot.
The rest will be Russian history in the making whether Bernie likes it or not.


----------



## Johnny b

Is Rush back to abusing his meds again?
Or merely thinks the general public is stupid?
Or both?

* Rush Limbaugh claims the 'common cold' coronavirus is an effort to 'get Trump' *
https://www.aol.com/article/enterta...ronavirus-is-an-effort-to-get-trump/23933983/



> "It looks like the coronavirus is being weaponized as yet another element to bring down Donald Trump," Limbaugh said at the start of his lengthy, misinformation-filled rant.
> 
> "Now, I want to tell you the truth about the coronavirus. ... I'm dead right on this. The coronavirus is the common cold, folks."


https://www.mediamatters.org/rush-limbaugh/rush-limbaugh-coronavirus-effort-get-trump

Limbaugh claims the deaths in China, the economic destruction going on in China from coronavirus ......is an attempt to bring down the Trump Administration.

Drug abuse often has a lot of deleterious effects. 
Read the above link, Rush seems to be experiencing it.


----------



## Wino

Just his usual unfounded and baseless talking head crap to roil the mullets. Nothing new here. Move along.


----------



## Johnny b

I think it's a new venue for Rush. 
Blaming critics of Trump, for the "common cold"


----------



## SeanLaurence

It appears that Trump feels that he won't be re-elected if markets crash. 
If the markets crash because of a pandemic, then he will need a scapegoat. <Sarcasm>After all, his eviscerating the CDC and other agency's that Obama fortified to guard against pandemics couldn't possibly affect the spread of the virus<\Sarcasm>
https://www.businessinsider.com/trump-cuts-programs-responsible-for-fighting-coronavirus-2020-2
"In 2018, for instance, the CDC cut 80% of its efforts to prevent global disease outbreaks because it was running out of money. Ultimately, the department went from working in 49 countries to just 10."

And since the US has no means to detect the virus, it must not exist. Nothing to see here. Buy more stock.
https://www.reuters.com/article/us-...lop-their-own-coronavirus-tests-idUSKCN20I2G8


----------



## Johnny b

That pretty much sums it up.

"everything the media says is a lie, vote for me and you'll be safe"

Not exactly a new position for Trump and his minions.


----------



## Wino

Not to mention the Fed has no tools in it's toolbox to combat the next big downturn - all wasted on trying to make Orange-A-Tang economy look good - smoke and mirrors.


----------



## Johnny b

The stock market continues on a dive this morning.
I got to wondering...how are Trump's businesses holding up?
He has had a habit of leveraging what he owns, in the past, in attempts to acquire more.

This little tidbit from Wikipedia is interesting:

*The Trump Organization *
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Trump_Organization



> The Trump Organization is a group of about 500 business entities of which Donald Trump is the sole or principal owner.[4] About 250 of these entities use the Trump name.[5][6]


No wonder Trump is upset.
Maybe the Donald has a lot more than re-election on his mind right now.
Like more bankruptcies. His own!
(  )


----------



## Wino

He sure hasn't helped my portfolio - down 25% and sinking. Covid-19 isn't the problem - it's the viral COVFEFE-19 - insidious and evil.


----------



## Johnny b

I think so, too. Wayne.

IMO, the threat of coronavirus merely triggered the run in an already volatile market.. 
There's been talk for quite a while about an inflated market.
For Trump, the unexpected merely upped the timetable to a pre election event.


----------



## SeanLaurence

My impression of the Trump org is that is mostly invested in real-estate, so it is not directly affected by the stock market. 
That is not to say that his political fortunes are not tied to the DOW's index. I maintain that his popularity will drop along with the markets. The only question is if he will get a pass for not being responsible for the Covid-19 virus. 
Most will hold him to account for an inadequate response, but I think his hard-core (evangelical) supporters will see the outbreak as an act of god.


----------



## Johnny b

SeanLaurence said:


> My impression of the Trump org is that is mostly invested in real-estate, so it is not directly affected by the stock market. ....................


Trump is into real-estate as a developer/investor.
The likes of hotels, entertainment, gambling, etc....where big money is spent on things not seen as must have necessities.
If he's leveraged for future and ongoing acquisitions, as in the past, if/when his cash flow is interrupted, he's going to have a lot of creditors looking for him 
And inside investors are likely hip to Donald's predicament.

He'll take a hit 

The question is. how big a hit?


----------



## Johnny b

This will be interesting 

* Judge orders review of unredacted Mueller report, calls AG Barr's account 'misleading' *
https://www.usatoday.com/story/news...ed-report-criticizes-william-barr/4968883002/



> WASHINGTON - A federal judge issued an order on Thursday for the Justice Department to release to the court an unredacted version of the Mueller Report, which contains the findings of former special counsel Robert Mueller's investigation into President Donald Trump and Russian interference in the 2016 election.
> 
> D.C. District Judge Reggie Walton also sharply criticized Attorney General William Barr, accusing him of making "misleading public statements" in advance of the release of the partially redacted version of the full report in April of 2019.
> 
> The George W. Bush-appointed judge wrote on Thursday that Barr's representation of the Mueller report had "inconsistencies" with the report itself, and that the court was "troubled" by the haste with which Barr released his initial letter before releasing the redacted report.
> 
> The inconsistencies, Walton said, caused him to "seriously question whether Attorney General Barr made a calculated attempt to influence public discourse about the Mueller Report in favor of President Trump despite certain findings in the redacted version of the Mueller Report to the contrary."


----------



## Johnny b

A hard dose of financial reality:

* This week in Trumponomics: Jobs don't matter *
https://finance.yahoo.com/news/this-week-in-trumponomics-jobs-dont-matter-195307835.html



> Trump learned a bad lesson from his 18-month trade war with China, when he was generally able to talk markets up with some happy chatter about breakthroughs that were always just around the corner. This time, however, markets are completely ignoring Trump and his minions and paying a lot more attention to public health experts.
> 
> ...........Trump simply fails to instill confidence. Investors know his first instinct is always to blame others, his second instinct is to calculate how he might profit and his third instinct is to see if it's an opportune time to take out an enemy. At some point after that, he might think about solving a problem in a way that's in everybody's interest.
> 
> (Edit: and more bad stuff)
> 
> If you took Kudlow's advice and put $1,000 into an S&P 500 index fund, you'd be down to $939 by now. Kudlow looks like a fool willing to lead investors into a wood chipper if it will please his boss for five seconds.
> 
> The entire Trump White House needs to learn to shut up.


Shocking, just shocking I tell you!!!


----------



## Johnny b

Lawsuits involving gym Jordan and Ohio State U.:

* Ohio State settling some suits over doc abuse; cost unclear *
https://apnews.com/792210f88a76b5a55d9405b2a7f2919b


> COLUMBUS, Ohio (AP) - Ohio State reached an unspecified settlement with nearly half of the roughly 350 men who say they were sexually abused decades ago by a team doctor who was jokingly known among some athletes by nicknames like "Dr. Jelly Paws."
> 
> The settlement announced Friday is the first for accusers of the late Richard Strauss, who say the doctor groped and otherwise mistreated students for two decades while school officials knew about concerns but did little to stop him.


The Jordan connection: *"school officials knew about concerns but did little to stop him."*

Yes, the same gym Jordan:
* Jim Jordan: Why Democrats are 'scared' of Trump's pick for intelligence chief *
https://www.foxnews.com/media/jim-j...ing-over-as-director-of-national-intelligence

He didn't concern himself about the welfare of his students on the OSU wrestling team, why should anyone trust him with their safety, as a politician?


----------



## Johnny b

So....what does a busy President do as COVID-19 advances across the US?
On a weekend, play golf, of course.

https://slate.com/news-and-politics/2020/03/trump-plays-golf-coronavirus-cases-surge.html



> By the Washington Post's estimate, Trump has played around 217 rounds of golf as president and has visited one of his golf clubs on around 250 days. More broadly, Trump has visited one of his properties "a little less regularly than once out of every three days of his presidency," notes the Washington Post. "In other words, for every week he has been president, he has spent, on average, at least part of two days at one of his properties."


Red MAGA hat and a thumps up:


__
http://instagr.am/p/B9fP7XNHPWI/


----------



## Johnny b

With our nation's health a current concern, this is what Trump does:

* Trump campaign announces Wisconsin event shortly after White House advises to 'avoid crowding' *

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news...-event-biden-sanders-drop-rallies/5016939002/



> The president will attend a "Catholics for Trump" event at the Wisconsin Center in Milwaukee on March 19, his campaign said Tuesday.
> 
> About an hour before the campaign announcement, the administration's coronavirus task force held a briefing at the White House in which Vice President Mike Pence and the nation's leading public health officials were flanked by a sign that cautioned people to "avoid crowding" and to consider limiting attendance at large gatherings.


----------



## Johnny b

What a novel way to cut support on Social Security and medicare.
Use a pandemic as the rationale.

* Trump pitched 0% payroll tax rate for the rest of the year, White House official says *
https://www.cnbc.com/2020/03/10/tru...t-of-this-year-white-house-officials-say.html



> There was also discussion of making the payroll tax rollback permanent, said the official, who declined to be named. Payroll taxes are used to fund Medicare and Social Security. When asked about the potential cost of a payroll tax cut, the official pushed back and asked why there is always a focus on the cost of tax cuts.


----------



## Johnny b

I'll bet there's Putin envy at the Oval Office over this article:

* Russian President Vladimir Putin's bid to stay in office until 2036 quickly backed by lawmakers *

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news...w-allow-him-stay-power-until-2036/5019423002/



> Russian President Vladimir Putin, the nation's longest serving leader since Josef Stalin ruled the Soviet Union, has ended any question about his political future by backing a constitutional amendment - quickly approved by the State Duma - that will allow him to stay in power until 2036.
> 
> The Kremlin-controlled Duma passed the measure on third reading Wednesday 383-0, with 43 abstentions, to remove the constitutional barrier to the 67-year-old Putin staying in office beyond 2024.


I guess we'll be listening to Trump whine about how unfair our own Constitution is.


----------



## Johnny b

A long but interesting chronicle of how the Trump Administration botched their role in times of a pandemic.

* The Trump administration's botched coronavirus response, explained *
https://www.vox.com/policy-and-poli.../coronavirus-trump-covid-19-pandemic-response



> From insufficient testing to a lack of coordination, Trump's response has been a disaster years in the making.


Too much to copy and paste.
A good read.

Trump's response: *"I don't take responsibility at all." *


----------



## Wino

An essay on ineptness and ignorance.


----------



## Johnny b

With Trump, everything that goes wrong is someone else's fault.
Never mind the President has an Intelligence Agency, or that the Chinese scrambled to build a massive hospital in two weeks, or because the Chinese government didn't tell The Donald personally back in December they had an epidemic, it's the Chinese's fault that Trump was 'incompetent'. 

*Trump on China: 'I wish they'd told us earlier' about coronavirus *
https://www.cnn.com/2020/03/21/politics/trump-china-told-us-coronavirus/index.html



> "I wish they could have told us earlier about what was going on inside," Trump said during a briefing on the federal government's coronavirus response. "We didn't know about it until it started coming out publicly."


It was publicly known in early February that China had an epidemic of intense proportions:

https://www.cnbc.com/2020/01/31/pic...-hospitals-in-days-to-combat-coronavirus.html


> Trucks line up for the construction site of a field hospital in Wuhan in central China's Hubei province Friday, Jan. 24, 2020. The builders will complete the 1,000-bed hospital by Feb. 3 to cope with the surge of 2019-nCoV patients in the city.


Logically, our intelligence services would have known in January and likely been monitoring the situation since at least early January.

But even all that doesn't cover the Trump Administration's cutbacks in emergency health services that would normally address preparedness for such disasters as COVID-19.

2/16/2020
https://thehill.com/blogs/congress-...out-coronavirus-tell-trump-to-reverse-cuts-to

2/26/2020
*Trump administration budget cuts could become a major problem as coronavirus spreads*
https://fortune.com/2020/02/26/coronavirus-covid-19-cdc-budget-cuts-us-trump/

2/29/2020
https://abcnews.go.com/Politics/trump-cut-cdcs-budget-democrats-claim-analysis/story?id=69233170


> The president introduced his fiscal year 2021 budget proposal on Feb. 10, just 11 days after the World Health Organization declared the coronavirus outbreak a public health emergency of international concerns. The spending plan included a 16 percent reduction in CDC funding from the 2020 spending levels.


3/13/2020
* Amid a Pandemic, Trump Moves Forward With Safety Net Cuts *
https://www.nytimes.com/2020/03/13/us/politics/coronavirus-food-stamps-medicaid.html


> As the coronavirus upends the economy, the Trump administration plans to make changes to the food stamp program that could lead to nearly 700,000 people losing assistance.


Interested in more on Trump and his 'incompetence'?

Simply use the search terms:
*" Trump Administration's cutbacks in emergency health services "*

When Trump was a liberal Democrat, he was really just a malevolent opportunist.
When Trump was an Independent, he was really just a malevolent opportunist.
When Trump bought his way into the Republican Party, nothing changed, he was still the same old Donald, a malevolent opportunist.

And now we're really screwed.

Trump didn't cause the epidemic.
But he did cause a lot of unnecessary misery, pain and suffering, and death than wouldn't have occurred with competent leadership.

And a lot of blame should go to Congress at the same time!


----------



## Johnny b

An interesting read.
Too much to copy and paste.
It explains one of the reasons the US is so short on medical supplies needed to treat Covid-19....or just about any epidemic/pandemic.

* Trump's trade policy is hampering the US fight against COVID-19 *
https://voxeu.org/content/trumps-trade-policy-hampering-us-fight-against-covid-19

This stands out:


> An alarming unintended consequence of President Donald Trump's misguided trade war with China has suddenly threatened to cripple the US fight against the COVID-19 pandemic.


----------



## Wino

Doesn't take a genius to know Trump's trade war was unnecessary and unproductive. He has a knack for reverse Midas Touch!


----------



## Johnny b

Considering the support I see for Trump, maybe it takes an element of intelligence, a spark at least.


----------



## Wino

The people that wanted to "burn it down" and "drain the swamp" got their wish on the former and screwed on the latter. Trump has never met a crisis he couldn't make worse.


----------



## Johnny b

*Trump to Mike Pence: 'Don't call the woman in Michigan,' aka Gov. Gretchen Whitmer *
https://www.usatoday.com/story/news...-pence-not-call-michigan-governor/2931251001/



> President Donald Trump said Friday he has asked Vice President Mike Pence not to call governors he says have not been "appreciative" enough of his efforts on coronavirus - a group of critics that included a governor he referred to only by gender,
> 
> "Don't call the woman in Michigan," Trump said at a press conference while discussing Pence's work as head of the White House Coronavirus Task Force.
> 
> That governor - Gretchen Whitmer - replied on Twitter that "right now, we all need to be focused on fighting the virus, not each other."
> 
> "I'm willing to work with anyone as long as we get the personal protective equipment we need for the people of Michigan," she said.





> "I want them to be appreciative," he said. "I don't want them to say things that aren't true."
> 
> Asked which governors he was referring to, Trump slammed Washington Gov. Jay Inslee, calling him "a failed presidential candidate."
> 
> Whitmer, he said, "has no idea what's going on, and all she does is say it's the federal government's fault."


----------



## Wino

Sad we have an immature old man petty tyrant, vindictive and ignorant scum bag of a president.


----------



## Wino

How pathetically insecure this ignorant lump of coal be:

https://www.tampabay.com/news/healt...-postcards-arrive-in-florida-did-you-get-one/

https://www.huffpost.com/entry/trum...ZbD_fnEjYh7QihAae7_SvuJWj7jXS53PKDA2PpuFAlYHs

He doesn't believe half the stuff on info side of card, but it does get his name on something that he had little to do with at the onset, except lie about it.

Now he wants HIS signature on stimulus checks to be sent out. It's always about HIM.


----------



## Johnny b

While I agree to a large extent, how are his followers to be convinced there is a dangerous pandemic spreading?
They initially didn't listen to or believe the health experts.

My cousin's widow still believes this is the fault of the WHO misinforming Trump. Timelines don't matter to her. She knows because she heard it through gossip. 

Trump initially told the nation not to worry, the pandemic was stopped in it's tracks.
Presenting the recommendations of the CDC would do little to change the mentality of his supporters.

Denial by the hardcore will likely not change, but those with more than 3 brain cells might just start paying attention to what is really going on.


----------



## Johnny b

Trump's tariff war has not been successful.
Trump's initial management of the coronavirus pandemic that's sweeping the US was not a success. Not looking very good now, either.

So...the question?
Why not compound the pair and really stick it to the economy and the health of the nation at the same time?
( Putin smiles )
(Moscow Mitch grins )

*Kudlow Says U.S. Won't Defer Tariffs Because It's Too Hard *
https://finance.yahoo.com/news/kudlow-says-u-won-t-142134407.html

Too hard? 

Get this.....



> White House economic adviser Larry Kudlow said the Trump administration decided against deferring payments for certain tariffs for now, citing the complexity of administering such a plan.
> 
> "We looked a little bit at most-favored nation custom duties and we decided it was too complicated," Kudlow said Friday on Bloomberg Television.
> 
> *Bloomberg News reported earlier this week that President Donald Trump was briefed and signed off on a proposal to delay certain duty payments to help companies with their cash flow crunch. Trump denied on Tuesday that he had approved the plan.*


Back pedal much, Donald?

I wonder how Larry determined it was too hard?

Larry?.....you do realize you're the designated fall guy?
It's never, ever Trump's fault.



> "We never looked in any serious way at rolling back tariffs," Kudlow said.


I'm not surprised.
Incompetence.....it's what you Trumpers do.


----------



## Johnny b

( Our President has a 'bridge for sale' and you need it to survive )

* Trump holds "financial interest" in pharmaceutical company that produces hydroxychloroquine: NYT *

https://www.salon.com/2020/04/07/tr...that-produces-hydroxychloroquine-nyt_partner/

* Trump's Aggressive Advocacy of Malaria Drug for Treating Coronavirus Divides Medical Community *

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/04/06/us/politics/coronavirus-trump-malaria-drug.html

Oh my....the art of the deal.

Would the real Alex Jones please stand up


----------



## Johnny b

Looks like the above Salon and NYTimes article were misleading.

* Trump's personal stake in the malaria-drug maker Sanofi could be as small as $99 *
https://www.marketwatch.com/story/t...all-as-99-2020-04-07?siteid=yhoof2&yptr=yahoo

Guess we'll just have to settle with his stupidity


----------



## Wino

Headline: "Trump spurns mail-in voting, says it 'doesn’t work out well' for GOP"

I can appreciate that sentiment. It's difficult to restrict mail in voters by ending last day voting, shortening early voting days, overly aggressive ID requirements, reducing the number of polls and voting machines and making polls inconvenient for likely Dem voters.


----------



## Johnny b

King Donald:

*Trump threatens to invoke constitutional power to adjourn Congress because of hold-up over nominees*

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news...ens-invoke-power-adjourn-congress/2994045001/

USA: autocracies are us


----------



## Johnny b

Time for a little Snopes:

* Did Trump Praise China for Its 'Transparency' on COVID-19? *

https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/trump-china-transparency/










What?
!



I think the President has the memory of a gnat and the conscience of a ... of a ... a...well, none at all.


----------



## Wino

johnny - you are so kind. LOL


----------



## Johnny b

* Fact check: Trump did host rallies, play golf as as COVID-19 outbreak ramped up *

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news...ies-golfed-covid-19-outbreak-grew/5126918002/

Verdict: True



> On Jan. 22, when CNBC asked him if there were any concerns about the virus spreading in the U.S., Trump said, "We have it totally under control. It's one person coming in from China, and we have it under control. It's going to be just fine."
> 
> During this time, Trump played golf on Jan. 18 and 19, Feb. 1 and 15, and March 7 and 8, according to the Trump Golf Count website.
> 
> He hosted rallies on Jan. 9 (Toledo, Ohio); 14 (Milwaukee), 28 (Wildwood, N.J.) and 30 (Des Moines, Iowa), as well as Feb. 10 (Manchester, N.H.), 19 (Phoenix), 20 (Colorado Springs), 21 (Las Vegas) and 28 (Charleston, S.C.).
> 
> On March 11, the WHO declared COVID-19 a pandemic. Additional European travel bans were implemented on the same day, but restrictions for the United Kingdom didn't come until two days later, after people re-entered the U.S. from Britain and Ireland.
> 
> On March 16, the White House released social distancing guidelines to limit gatherings of no more than 10 people.
> 
> On March 17, Trump changed from his previous statements that the virus would not severely impact the U.S. and said, "This is a pandemic. ... *I felt it was a pandemic long before it was called a pandemic."*


----------



## Johnny b

King Donald J Trump:

Autocracies are us.
( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Autocracy )






All hail!


----------



## Johnny b

Donald Trump and the boogaloo movement.
That might seem a silly term, but it's deadly serious.

Trump has been accused of inciting a revolution in the US, from his attempt to close down Congress to absolute power over governors and States Rights...... during the current pandemic.

*In Trump's 'LIBERATE' tweets, extremists see a call to arms *
https://www.nbcnews.com/tech/security/trump-s-liberate-tweets-extremists-see-call-arms-n1186561

This is more than people upset with the current pandemic protocols.
It's being seen as a call to civil war by home grown terrorists. From Red hatters to Neo Nazis to white supremacists and gun right activists.
It's called the "boogaloo" movement.

* The Boogaloo: Extremists' New Slang Term for A Coming Civil War * 
https://www.adl.org/blog/the-boogaloo-extremists-new-slang-term-for-a-coming-civil-war
Much to read, too much to copy and paste.

* What is the 'boogaloo'? How online calls for a violent uprising are hitting the mainstream *
https://www.nbcnews.com/tech/social...olent-uprising-are-getting-organized-n1138461


> An anti-government movement that advocates for a violent uprising targeting liberal political opponents and law enforcement has moved from the fringes of the internet into the mainstream and surged on social media in recent months, according to a group of researchers that tracks hate groups.
> 
> The movement, which says it wants a second Civil War organized around the term "boogaloo," includes groups on mainstream internet platforms such as Facebook, Instagram, Twitter and Reddit, as well as fringe websites including 4chan, according to a report released Tuesday night by the Network Contagion Research Institute (NCRI), an independent nonprofit of scientists and engineers that tracks and reports on misinformation and hate speech across social media.


All hail King Donald.....or else


----------



## Johnny b

The irony of it all.

I need the protection of the Second Amendment to counter radical gun rights activists.


----------



## Johnny b

> _Don't blame me, the guy who failed to prepare for the pandemic. Blame the governors who are now forced to respond to my failure._


* Trump's Two Horrifying Plans for Dealing With the Coronavirus *
https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2020/04/trump-trading-lives-poor-economic-growth/610264/



> Either he pushes the country to trade poor people's lives for the pursuit of economic recovery, or he gets a cable-TV culture war to distract his supporters from the troubles he himself aggravated by his own negligence.
> 
> Both Trump's Plan A and Plan B intend to turn American against American, in an ugly spirit of rancor and resentment. In pandemic as in prosperity, the Trump way is to punish opponents, reward friends; accuse victims, protect culprits; demand credit, refuse accountability; protect preferred classes and groups of Americans-and sacrifice the rest.


----------



## Wino

Trump plans are CYA for him only. He's setting the states up to take the blame if things go south and to take credit if not although he has done little other than blame others for his failures. He is an outlier, grifter and con man.


----------



## Johnny b

Agreed.
I'd also add malevolent opportunist.


----------



## Johnny b

Moscow Mitch is at it again.
Apparently the infrastructure of the US isn't worthy of his purview.

*McConnell Says He Favors Letting States Declare Bankruptcy*
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/arti...-favors-allowing-states-to-declare-bankruptcy

( Putin smiles )

True, that is one way to kill off state pension funding, but there are other serious consequences from an such an absolute policy, mentioned in the article.

Even Trump seems to disagree with Moscow Mitch, ( for what it's worth  )


> McConnell may also find himself in conflict with President Donald Trump. The president said Tuesday after meeting with New York Governor Andrew Cuomo that states will need assistance. "And I think most Republicans agree too, and Democrats," Trump said. "And that's part of phase four."


----------



## Wino

Post #1681 also applies to Moscow Mitch - whom I believe is the man behind the curtain enabling the inept orange human stain.


----------



## Johnny b

Looks like Trump is trying desperately to punish Bezos.

* Trump threatens to block aid to U.S. Postal Service if it doesn't hike prices for Amazon packages *
https://finance.yahoo.com/video/trump-threatens-block-aid-u-220709297.html



> President Trump said on April 24 that he would not approve a bailout for the Postal Service-which Congress has authorized-unless it raises package delivery fees to four times the current levels.


https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/poli...it-doesnt-hike-prices-immediately/ar-BB139DNj


> "This is about as catastrophically stupid an idea that anyone could ever imagine," said Mark Cohen, director of retail studies at Columbia University Business School.
> 
> Jon Gold, the vice president of supply chain and customs policy at the National Retail Federation, said in a statement that higher prices would "significantly hurt rural communities and small businesses in addition to USPS."
> 
> "Raising rates like that on the post office, which is a thinly veiled attempt to get at Bezos, will merely result in Amazon and other shippers moving their business," Cohen said. "It will kill the post office."


King Trump should stick to what he knows best..........clorox cocktails.


----------



## Johnny b

Does this really surprise anyone?

* 'Can't imagine why': Donald Trump denies responsibility for disinfectant confusion after some states report increased calls *

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news...gine-why-disinfectant-coronavirus/3037761001/



> President Donald Trump said he takes no responsibility for a spike in cases of people misusing disinfectants after he wondered aloud last week about possibly injecting them as a treatment for coronavirus.
> 
> When asked Monday about the increase of people in some states ingesting disinfectants Trump answered: "I can't imagine why."
> 
> When pressed about whether he takes any responsibility, Trump said, "No, I don't."


Being responsible just isn't one of his character traits.
It's not complicated.
It's someone else's fault and likely always will be.


----------



## Johnny b

Leadership at it's Best?

* Trump: Government shouldn't rescue states and cities struggling under pandemic *
https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/do...escue-states-cities-struggling-under-n1193351

When Trump said he wasn't responsible, he really meant he wasn't going to be a responsible leader in times of national tragedies.
This is MAGA....making America great again, Trump style.

The question is.....who's America?



> Why should the people and taxpayers of America be bailing out poorly run states (like Illinois, as example) and cities, in all cases Democrat run and managed, when most of the other states are not looking for bailout help? I am open to discussing anything, but just asking?
> - Donald J. Trump (@realDonaldTrump) April 27, 2020
> 
> Trump's comments came just days after Senate Majority Leader Mitch McConnell, R-Ky., said he would prefer states to be able to declare bankruptcy rather than have the federal government provide hundreds of billions of dollars in relief to state and local governments.


Bankruptcies.......it's been a pattern of doing business through out Trump's life.
And lawsuits.

The 'businessman' that was elected to solve all our problems.
He appears to have found a solution to our current problems at the suggestion of Moscow Mitch 

No Kool-Aid for you. You-all get to chem up with Clorox on the way to the poor house.

(Putin smiles)


----------



## Johnny b

Something to watch:

Will Barr focus attacks on States that Trump is weak in, as a Presidential election approaches?

* Barr tells prosecutors to 'be on the lookout' for state, local coronavirus orders that may violate Constitution *
https://www.washingtonpost.com/nati...5832ce-88b9-11ea-ac8a-fe9b8088e101_story.html


----------



## Wino

Trump and his MAGAts are a national fiasco of stupid. He has no clue to governance. An empty bombastic imbecile of astounding ignorance. He has never met an opportunity that he couldn't screw up. Never admits wrong, plays the blame game like a 5 year old petulant child.


----------



## Johnny b

* McConnell dangles aid to states - with a catch *
https://www.politico.com/news/2020/04/27/mcconnell-aid-states-coronavirus-212424



> "I'm open to additional assistance. It's not just going to be a check, though, you get my point?" McConnell said. "We're not writing a check to send down to states to allow them to, in effect, finance mistakes they've made unrelated to the coronavirus."


What has gone demonstrably wrong in the COVID-19 pandemic in the US, begins with Trump ignoring the seriousness of the situation too long to the point mitigation was limited.
Moscow Mitch is in reality, protecting the Federal Government and especially DJ Trump .
State economic failures begin with Trump.


----------



## ekim68

The Trump Administration Is Suddenly Pretending That It Didn't Blow Up the Iran Nuclear Deal



> While everyone is riveted to the deadly grind of COVID-19, the Trump administration is stepping up its efforts to crush the Islamic Republic of Iran through one of the most squirrely legal arguments that a nation-state has ever devised.
> 
> The move is also a political shot in the foot, because it amounts to an unwitting admission that President Donald Trump was wrong to pull out of the Iran nuclear deal.


----------



## Johnny b

'Things' can always be worse, get worse.
The economy. Life. Suffering.

And they will be, as bad as it already is, much worse if Trump tries to use China as a whipping boy and diversion for what he refused to initially do in protecting the citizenry from COVID-19........as an election approaches.

* Dow losses pick up steam as Washington Post reports U.S. 'crafting' retaliation against China for coronavirus handling *

https://www.marketwatch.com/story/d...avirus-handling-2020-04-30?mod=article_inline



> U.S. stocks midday Thursday took a firm leg lower after the Washington Post reported that U.S. officials were "crafting retaliatory actions against China' as the Trump administration criticizes the world's second-largest economy for its handling of the COVID-19 pandemic.
> 
> ..... the New York Times reported the Trump officials have "pushed American spy agencies to hunt for evidence to support" an unsubstantiated theory that the novel strain of coronavirus was derived from a laboratory in Wuhan.


* U.S. officials crafting retaliatory actions against China over coronavirus as President Trump fumes *
https://www.washingtonpost.com/business/2020/04/30/trump-china-coronavirus-retaliation/


> In private, Trump and aides have discussed stripping China of its "sovereign immunity," aiming to enable the U.S. government or victims to sue China for damages.


More to the point and responsibility for events, perhaps Donald Trump and his administration should be stripped of their sovereign immunity and sued for malicious/criminal incompetence. ( Impeachment for the Prez )

* Trump Officials Are Said to Press Spies to Link Virus and Wuhan Labs *
https://www.nytimes.com/2020/04/30/...istration-intelligence-coronavirus-china.html


> Senior Trump administration officials have pushed American spy agencies to hunt for evidence to support an unsubstantiated theory that a government laboratory in Wuhan, China, was the origin of the coronavirus outbreak, according to current and former American officials. The effort comes as President Trump escalates a public campaign to blame China for the pandemic.


The pandemic started in China. And spread around the world. That is correct.
Trump has acknowledged he knew the severity of the situation from our own intel 3 months before he even admitted to the public there was a pandemic. That would be late November , early December.
Trump knew of the consequences to ignoring the oncoming plague, and ignored it till it was too late to mitigate the severity.
There was no call for a state of readiness. Covid-19 simply over ran our society as Trump disavowed his responsibilities.

China exports much of our generic pharmaceuticals. Many medical products, supplies and testing equipment. Many electronics and electrical devices, from computers to kitchen products to just about anything you can think of and now he wants to go from an existing already devastating trade war to .....something even more punitive.

'Things' are likely to get a lot worse for us if Trump follows through with his threats.

( edited for spelling )


----------



## Johnny b

With a history of lying, spinning facts and utter stupidity....
Here's Donald:

* Trump contradicts US intel community by claiming he's seen evidence coronavirus originated in Chinese lab *
https://www.cnn.com/2020/04/30/poli...ommunity-china-coronavirus-origins/index.html



> President Donald Trump contradicted a rare on-the-record statement from his own intelligence community by claiming Thursday that he has seen evidence that gives him a "high degree of confidence" the novel coronavirus originated in a laboratory in Wuhan, China, but declined to provide details to back up his assertion.
> The comments undercut a public statement from the Office of the Director of National Intelligence issued just hours earlier which stated no such assessment has been made and continues to "rigorously examine" whether the outbreak "began through contact with infected animals or if it was the result of an accident at a laboratory in Wuhan."
> "Yes, I have," Trump said when asked whether he's seen evidence that would suggest the virus originated in the lab. Later, asked why he was confident in that assessment, Trump demurred.
> 
> *"I can't tell you that. I'm not allowed to tell you that," he said.*


(bolding mine)

From the man that claims as President he can do what ever he wants......he suddenly claims an exception?
I'm a bit dubious.

By the way, there is a difference between the concept of where the virus originated ( a laboratory would mean man made but geneticists have ruled that out ) versus an accident in a laboratory where a collected specimen escaped.
The language Trump uses ,"origin", strongly infers gene modification.

origin> * the point or place where something begins, arises, or is derived. *
So far, the only known theory for the 'origin' of SARS-CoV-2 ( COVID-19 ) is from animal transmission to humans.

When a President habitually lies, how can we tell when he doesn't?
Presenting facts could.
And now he's refusing to offer any.
( maybe the link to his YouTube video is broken  )


----------



## Wino

Only his true believers accept whatever comes out of the pie hole of the orange ogre behind the curtain. I can think of only one thing he ever said that was true (not in the way he meant it) - the whole world is laughing at the USA.
At one time (less than four years ago) had we had a pandemic, the whole world looked to the USA for guidance and leadership - now it's a mass of nations doing their best almost singularly. No one looks to USA for any kind of sanity these days.


----------



## SeanLaurence

Wino said:


> Only his true believers accept whatever comes out of the pie hole of the orange ogre behind the curtain. I can think of only one thing he ever said that was true (not in the way he meant it) - the whole world is laughing at the USA.
> At one time (less than four years ago) had we had a pandemic, the whole world looked to the USA for guidance and leadership - now it's a mass of nations doing their best almost singularly. No one looks to USA for any kind of sanity these days.


I would like to think that the world is not actually laughing at the US as a country. There are still a fair number of institutions that the US leads, such as the UN, and the WHO, that are vital to global interests.
I think that the next president will have their hands full, rebuilding relationships around the world, as well as restoring confidence in everyday live after the pandemic is deemed under control.


----------



## Johnny b

SeanLaurence said:


> I would like to think that the world is not actually laughing at the US as a country. There are still a fair number of institutions that the US leads, such as the UN, and the WHO, that are vital to global interests.
> I think that the next president will have their hands full, rebuilding relationships around the world, as well as restoring confidence in everyday live after the pandemic is deemed under control.


I would like to think the world isn't laughing at us, but it bothers me that they are.
The Trump administration has treated too many of our long term allies with disrespect while hurting their economies as well as our own.
It bothers me that so many of my own countrymen support the extreme nationalism that Trump projects that favors an elite group of his support, but not our society as a whole.

The US hasn't had much influence in the UN for several decades and it looks like support of the WHO is a thing of the past with Trump.
I think a lot of support for the health of third world countries will wain, and incredibly difficult and deadly results will be their 'new normal' for decades.

The only thing Trump has been successful at is generating hate and polarizing our society for the purpose of promoting and electing himself.

IMO, I doubt normalcy will be achieved in the next decade.
What we are experiencing, in social and economic considerations is much worse than the Great Recession of 2008.

And now there is even a racial/economic consideration.

* More than 80 percent of hospitalized covid-19 patients in Georgia were African American, study finds *
https://www.washingtonpost.com/heal...1496ea-8993-11ea-8ac1-bfb250876b7a_story.html

I suspect this will haunt us in the future.


----------



## SeanLaurence

Johnny b said:


> I would like to think the world isn't laughing at us, but it bothers me that they are.
> The Trump administration has treated too many of our long term allies with disrespect while hurting their economies as well as our own.
> It bothers me that so many of my own countrymen support the extreme nationalism that Trump projects that favors an elite group of his support, but not our society as a whole.
> 
> The US hasn't had much influence in the UN for several decades and it looks like support of the WHO is a thing of the past with Trump.
> I think a lot of support for the health of third world countries will wain, and incredibly difficult and deadly results will be their 'new normal' for decades.
> 
> The only thing Trump has been successful at is generating hate and polarizing our society for the purpose of promoting and electing himself.
> 
> IMO, I doubt normalcy will be achieved in the next decade.
> What we are experiencing, in social and economic considerations is much worse than the Great Recession of 2008.
> 
> And now there is even a racial/economic consideration.
> 
> * More than 80 percent of hospitalized covid-19 patients in Georgia were African American, study finds *
> https://www.washingtonpost.com/heal...1496ea-8993-11ea-8ac1-bfb250876b7a_story.html
> 
> I suspect this will haunt us in the future.


A decade? That is the most pessimistic outlook I have seen yet!
My view is that if an effective vaccine is developed and administered, all these restrictions can be lifted reasonably quickly... So late 2021?
Once the shelter in place is gone, The economy might bounce back like it did in the "roaring 20's" after the 1918-19 pandemic.

The other thing that can change in the mean time is that some businesses can re-open, provided some kind of physical distancing can be maintained. If people wear masks and space apart, then my impression is that the risk of infection is low.


----------



## Johnny b

SeanLaurence said:


> A decade? That is the most pessimistic outlook I have seen yet!
> My view is that if an effective vaccine is developed and administered, all these restrictions can be lifted reasonably quickly... So late 2021?
> Once the shelter in place is gone, The economy might bounce back like it did in the "roaring 20's" after the 1918-19 pandemic.
> 
> The other thing that can change in the mean time is that some businesses can re-open, provided some kind of physical distancing can be maintained. If people wear masks and space apart, then my impression is that the risk of infection is low.





> A decade? That is the most pessimistic outlook I have seen yet!
> My view is that if an effective vaccine is developed and administered, all these restrictions can be lifted reasonably quickly... So late 2021?


What does that comment have to do with my post that you quoted?
I posted:


> The US hasn't had much influence in the UN for several decades


It hasn't had the support it used to , with Russia, China and many African nations frequently opposing the US in the UN Security Council.
Right or wrong, it's been a long running gripe in the Republican Party, long before Trump.

....................


> My view is that if an effective vaccine is developed and administered, all these restrictions can be lifted reasonably quickly... So late 2021?


Sounds reasonable, but that's a big 'IF'.
My view is that we won't know any kind of a timeline, until a vaccine is discovered.



> Once the shelter in place is gone, The economy might bounce back like it did in the "roaring 20's" after the 1918-19 pandemic.


'Bounce back' is very subjective .
Too much is unknown.
Will there be a second wave?
Can infection occur more than once to an individual?

Politically and socially, there are now problems with enforcing a shelter in place or, a stay at home orders.
Trump calls for 'liberation' in many states. A defying of many governors.
The last week/10 days in Ohio ( where I live ) my observation is the order began to be ignored.
In Michigan, armed militia protest their Governor's orders along with crowds wearing no protection.
Some of these militia do not support the concept of a democratic society.

I think it's wise to slowly open businesses to get a feel for any negative impact.
But the wise will adhere to social distancing till an effective vaccine is developed.
But having said that, merely look at images of crowds at recent protests. Many do not wear masks.
These protests are new vectors of transmitting COVID-19 as protestors go home to friends, families and as businesses start to open, work mates.



> If people wear masks and space apart, then my impression is that the risk of infection is low.


In the US, doing so is a pretty big assumption. There are still many from what I read that believe COVID-19 is just another Flu to contend with.
IMO, Trump is responsible for much of that, along with nutjobs on Youtube channels.


----------



## SeanLaurence

Johnny, you had written: "IMO, I doubt normalcy will be achieved in the next decade."
I responded to that and offered my own opinion, I am allowed that n'est-ca pas?

Absolutely, that is a big if. I am a bit more optimistic than you. It may be a product of where I live. BC does not have nearly the case count that Ohio does. And yes, a vaccine is key, as well as contact tracing.

I understand the freedom loving MAGAs are a small, but loud minority. Perhaps when the infection rates among that group rises they will have a change of heart.


----------



## Johnny b

Edit: Deleted my response Sean. Too much of a rant.

What is going on in the US is disgusting.

I'm taking a break from Controversial Topics for a while.


----------



## Johnny b

SeanLaurence said:


> A decade? That is the most pessimistic outlook I have seen yet!
> ...........................


Short answer.......open your eyes.
First off, the Trump years aren't normal and if reelected, will be less 'normal'.

The US populace is very polarized and Trump is counting on this for reelection.
'Freedom or death' seems one of the battle cries in the current protest marches. The problem being their 'freedom' entails the death of others through needless spreading of the COVID-19 virus.

There are members of our society exhibiting violent tendencies and even violence over
the simplest of concepts to control the spread of COVID-19.
In Ohio, antivaxxers are showing up in protests.
Militias are becoming more aggressive to the point of carrying military styled weapons in marches and even entering into state capital buildings where open carry laws allow, Michigan being an example.
It's becoming acceptable by many.

TeaParty and Libertarian extremism ......where the concept of 'Liberty' is to not be subjected to the laws of a government, but the freedom to impose one's will upon others. Responsibility being governed by one's self.......like Trump initially lying about the dangers of COVID-19 and disavowing all his bad decisions leading up to our crisis by merely stating, 'I'm not responsible', and he's not even a Libertarian!!!

Fascists. MAGA. White Supremacists, Neo Nazis, KKK. They seem more common now, or at least more open.
Their rivals, Antifa and socialists.
What a cross section of America and I almost forgot to mention the radical religious groups pretending to be Christian while worshiping a president as an emissary of God. A president accused of racism, torturing people seeking sanctuary, collusion with a foreign nation. A president that promises everything to anyone that will support him, but all he gives are lies.

Read up on the Great Depression.
Look at some of the similarities of events leading up to it.
I think there is a danger of a greater depression, and that GD was about a decade long and the World wasn't as dependent upon technology as today.
There is a tariff war going on and Trump is looking for reparations from a nation that supplies much of our high tech along with everyday products.
Ramping up replacement industries and factories is not a snap of the fingers, and with capital being destroyed on a massive scale, reconstruction will be slow.

Some financial annalists are considering rising inflation as a potential problem..
There's even consideration being given to the concept of deflation.

I live in a spoiled society.
I don't think it will do well in this crisis.
I think democracy is dying.
I hope I'm wrong.
But a decade to normalcy?
I think I'm being optimistic.

And I rant again.


----------



## SeanLaurence

Johnny,
We didn't define normalcy.
If it means comfortably eating in a restaurant in the same manner that we did 6 months ago, then I would say 2 years.
If you want to see a nation that is much the same as it was under, say, Bill Clinton, then I would say that the nation will evolve, and some things will be better, and some worse. Things will never be the same.

One of the structural problems I see with the US is that one party represents a diminishing white america and is desperately trying everything they can to maintain power while their electorate is shrinking, and the other party needs to appeal to everyone else.
There are irreconcilable differences on issues such as abortion, and gun laws.

What I want to address though, is the concept of the money supply. The fed controls it, and thankfully, Trump has not managed to screw that up. The way you get inflation is when the fed does not "Print" enough money. You get deflation when the fed "Prints" too much. Since there are so many US dollars in circulation, changes in the supply and demand happen very slowly.

The trick right now is to have systems in place so that people don't starve or revolt. Right now, the revolts (protests) are only about perceived loss of freedom and economic loss. If people start to starve because of food supply disruptions, or if people lose their homes (shelter) then the revolts will get worse.

I think Trump gets that, hence his order to keep meat plants running.


----------



## Johnny b

SeanLaurence said:


> Johnny,
> We didn't define normalcy.
> If it means comfortably eating in a restaurant in the same manner that we did 6 months ago, then I would say 2 years.
> If you want to see a nation that is much the same as it was under, say, Bill Clinton, then I would say that the nation will evolve, and some things will be better, and some worse. Things will never be the same.
> 
> One of the structural problems I see with the US is that one party represents a diminishing white america and is desperately trying everything they can to maintain power while their electorate is shrinking, and the other party needs to appeal to everyone else.
> There are irreconcilable differences on issues such as abortion, and gun laws.
> 
> What I want to address though, is the concept of the money supply. The fed controls it, and thankfully, Trump has not managed to screw that up. The way you get inflation is when the fed does not "Print" enough money. You get deflation when the fed "Prints" too much. Since there are so many US dollars in circulation, changes in the supply and demand happen very slowly.
> 
> The trick right now is to have systems in place so that people don't starve or revolt. Right now, the revolts (protests) are only about perceived loss of freedom and economic loss. If people start to starve because of food supply disruptions, or if people lose their homes (shelter) then the revolts will get worse.
> 
> I think Trump gets that, hence his order to keep meat plants running.





> We didn't define normalcy.


Very true.
Our views on it are entirely different.



> If it means comfortably eating in a restaurant in the same manner that we did 6 months ago, then I would say 2 years.


Then I'd say, apparently you'd be easy to satisfy.

I assure you, IMO, it takes one hell of a lot more than a good meal to please me.



> If you want to see a nation that is much the same as it was under, say, Bill Clinton,


Ah, I see. You'd be satisfied with a false sense of security?



> then I would say that the nation will evolve


Your 'IF' statement doesn't logically lead to a satisfactory conclusion as you proposed.
Clinton signed off on legislation that eventually brought about the debacle in 2008 with banks dealing in securities ( derivatives ) as if they actually had value.
Clinton was seen as weak on defending the US. Embassy bombings, attacks on Navy ships.

There was evolution after Clinton. 9/11 and the Great Recession.
Not evolution of 'normalcy', though.



> One of the structural problems I see with the US is that one party represents a diminishing white america and is desperately trying everything they can to maintain power while their electorate is shrinking, ....


Agreed.



> ...... and the other party needs to appeal to everyone else.


LOL!
That's just the socialist in you trying to present imagery of a rosy socialist society 
Antifa looks just as ugly as the right wing extremists I mentioned earlier ( Fascists. MAGA. White Supremacists, Neo Nazis, KKK ) just not as well organized.
And the Sanders/Warren AOC extremes would only mirror what's happening economically now.
With a lack of capital, things either don't get done, or done badly.
The difference is they want to share till there's nothing left lol!



> The way you get inflation is when the fed does not "Print" enough money. You get deflation when the fed "Prints" too much.


Seriously, who taught you that?
Inflation is a rising cost of goods while there is a reduction in the value of money ( purchasing power). 
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inflation


> Economists generally believe that very high rates of inflation and hyperinflation are caused by an excessive growth of the money supply.


For your studies:
https://www.investopedia.com/terms/i/inflation.asp
excerpt:


> The consensus view among economists is that sustained inflation occurs when a nation's money supply growth outpaces economic growth.


ie: too much currency in circulation.
You had it backwards.



> Since there are so many US dollars in circulation, changes in the supply and demand happen very slowly.


Well guess what?
Currently, we don't have abundant supply and most people are debt ridden worse than at the worst moments of 2008/2009.
If you mean 'because there are only so many dollars in circulation' there is a point.
And from what I've read, this is the concern about deflation.
A lack of purchasing power ( what is currently building up ), increased competition by business to lower prices, with a resultant eventually of business groups and sectors failing to achieve needed profitability.

Of course, socialists don't consider that dynamic. They seem to feel ....failure is not an option. Or at least , they seem that way till reality hits them squarely. lol!



> The trick right now is to have systems in place so that people don't starve or revolt.


The 'trick' right now is to survive.
The disease and it's consequences, plus the polarizing of our society into destructive Fascist and Socialist political camps.
If you haven't figured it out yet, I'm opposed to both.



> If people start to starve because of food supply disruptions, or if people lose their homes (shelter) then the revolts will get worse.


All it takes for the protests to take on a revolutionary image is Trump.
And he's already initiated that, and we are seeing the early results.

You've led a sheltered life up there in Canada. 
Enjoy it while you can.


----------



## SeanLaurence

You are right, I did have it backwards: too much money is inflation.... Apologies.
Governments are trying to do something that I don't think has ever been done before: tell people to not work unless really necessary.
The hubris of the communist is to think that they can control the economy and meet demand better than the capitalist.
The capitalist knows his system is more efficient, but does not take into account the public good when seeking personal profit.
Modern western economies attempt to use a blend of both systems to hopefully get a better result than either one gives.

What I was trying to convey is that Democrats need to gather votes from the "Majority Minority" - the large voting block of people of colour, which I believe outnumbers white Americans. 
And I picked Bill Clinton to represent my vision of what normal america was because he was less polarizing a figure than Trump, Obama, and Bush. IMO. Also, he was a peacetime president. I am trying to convey an era rather than discuss the leader himself.
And if the legislation that Clinton signed that brought about the 2008 financial crisis was so bad (and I agree that it was), why didn't Bush fix it in the nearly 8 years he had. (Try no to use 9/11 as an excuse)

Anyway, that is off topic.
The idea that you have brought up again is that of "Capital being destroyed"
I am not sure if I am with you on that idea. When you shutter a business temporarily it should be able to be re-opened with reasonable restart costs.
Human capital can be destroyed if experts in one industry find themselves working elsewhere, thus squandering their special skills.
Sometimes you might find waste full destruction of capital because of inefficiencies in the system - think of a small restaurant that goes out of business, the space gets leased to a new tenant who throws out all that perfectly good restaurant gear and renovates the space for the new business.

You are concerned about the contracting economy. At this stage in the pandemic, I think this is by design. The govt wants everyone to stay at home. If there is no where to spend your money or if you have no money to spend, then that goal is achieved.
Once it is actually deemed safe to go out again, you can bet the treasury will open up the flood gates. This goes especially if Trump is still in. He has no problem spending other peoples money.


----------



## Johnny b

SeanLaurence said:


> You are right, I did have it backwards: too much money is inflation.... Apologies.
> Governments are trying to do something that I don't think has ever been done before: tell people to not work unless really necessary.
> The hubris of the communist is to think that they can control the economy and meet demand better than the capitalist.
> The capitalist knows his system is more efficient, but does not take into account the public good when seeking personal profit.
> Modern western economies attempt to use a blend of both systems to hopefully get a better result than either one gives.
> 
> What I was trying to convey is that Democrats need to gather votes from the "Majority Minority" - the large voting block of people of colour, which I believe outnumbers white Americans.
> And I picked Bill Clinton to represent my vision of what normal america was because he was less polarizing a figure than Trump, Obama, and Bush. IMO. Also, he was a peacetime president. I am trying to convey an era rather than discuss the leader himself.
> And if the legislation that Clinton signed that brought about the 2008 financial crisis was so bad (and I agree that it was), why didn't Bush fix it in the nearly 8 years he had. (Try no to use 9/11 as an excuse)
> 
> Anyway, that is off topic.
> The idea that you have brought up again is that of "Capital being destroyed"
> I am not sure if I am with you on that idea. When you shutter a business temporarily it should be able to be re-opened with reasonable restart costs.
> Human capital can be destroyed if experts in one industry find themselves working elsewhere, thus squandering their special skills.
> Sometimes you might find waste full destruction of capital because of inefficiencies in the system - think of a small restaurant that goes out of business, the space gets leased to a new tenant who throws out all that perfectly good restaurant gear and renovates the space for the new business.
> 
> You are concerned about the contracting economy. At this stage in the pandemic, I think this is by design. The govt wants everyone to stay at home. If there is no where to spend your money or if you have no money to spend, then that goal is achieved.
> Once it is actually deemed safe to go out again, you can bet the treasury will open up the flood gates. This goes especially if Trump is still in. He has no problem spending other peoples money.





> The capitalist knows his system is more efficient, but does not take into account the public good when seeking personal profit.


Capitalism wasn't designed to be a social institution. It's merely a way of designating value. As such, it shouldn't have influence in social structures.
Doing so is often called corruption.
To avoid abuse, laws are generated to protect citizens.
In reality, just another avenue for corruption, thus labor union came into existence.
What we see in the US is merely a corrupt version of capitalism, with socialistic influences too.
Back in the Great Depression, these same influences we see today existed and there was much to do about ditching capitalism.
There arose, briefly, the concept of enlightened capitalism. It still exists today but doesn't get much press.
I haven't read the book
https://www.moralmarkets.org/book/the-enlightened-capitalists/
But I learned about it through my father that lived through the Great Depression.
The concept involves ethical considerations to favor a prosperous society and in turn, enhance capitalism.

Adam Smith is credited for being the father of capitalism.
But the first book he wrote was "The Theory of Moral Sentiments".
Smith taught moral philosophy and those ideas have been credited in formulating capitalism in a later book from which his theory of capitalism came from, " An Inquiry into the Nature and Causes of the Wealth of Nations".

People think of Trump as a 'capitalist' because he ( sometimes ) generates profit.
As I've said many times, Trump is a malevolent opportunist and obviously has no ethics nor morality as he frequently scams the business world and consumers alike.
Business leader of his ilk are the reason why capitalism has a bad image today......corruption.



> What I was trying to convey is that Democrats need to gather votes from the "Majority Minority" - the large voting block of people of colour, which I believe outnumbers white Americans.


You believe wrong. White America is still a majority, barely, but the ratios are changing.
I've heard that by 2050, Hispanics will likely become the majority.
It's the fear of losing prominence and entitlement that Trump manipulates for his own benefit. It works well in a society that is afflicted with institutional racism.



> And I picked Bill Clinton to represent my vision of what normal america was because he was less polarizing a figure than Trump, Obama, and Bush. IMO.


LOL!
Bill was hated by the conservatives of the day.
I remember the tirades by Rush Limbaugh and wondered, who was this new guy on the Radio? 
Whitewater, among other things, was a 'big deal' but all they could get Bill on was lying to Congress about an affair. And there was Paula the trailer park queen lol! And more.
However.....
Everybody is less polarizing than Trump!!!!



> The idea that you have brought up again is that of "Capital being destroyed"
> I am not sure if I am with you on that idea


You haven't been watching the stock market nor the balance sheets of major businesses.
As bad as was the lack of investment capital during the 2008 Great Recession, this recession will be more intense. The fear is another depression.

A bit of reality:
https://www.marketwatch.com/story/h...den-the-gap-dividing-rich-and-poor-2020-04-23



> You are concerned about the contracting economy. At this stage in the pandemic, I think this is by design. The govt wants everyone to stay at home.


?
Yes, I am concerned about the economy. Now and before COVID-19 existed.
I'm also concerned about the health of my society from a political stand point.
I see them as different elements, but of equal importance.

But you are wrong about 'the government' ( the Feds ) wanting the public to stay at home.
Trump wants everyone back to work as soon as possible if not yesterday.
He has an election to win and a dead economy won't look good to many of his current supporters.
The Governors vary from state to state depending on viral status and politics, political depending often on the political party of the Governor.



> Once it is actually deemed safe to go out again, you can bet the treasury will open up the flood gates.


To whom?  ...


----------



## Johnny b

Sean, this is an example of the mentality I mentioned that is self defeating and needs to change.
This individual is an elected Ohio State representative.
Citing his religious beliefs, he refuses to wear a mask on religious grounds.
Doing so, he exposes himself as a potential vector for the spread of COVID-19.
He has the ability to spread a debilitating disease not only among friends and family, but also other members of the Ohio State government.

*Coronavirus: 'I will not wear a mask,' Urbana state rep says *
https://www.daytondailynews.com/new...a-representative-says/hcJi85H5J0QsKBDg8jlXzN/

His logic:


> "This is the greatest nation on Earth founded on Judeo-Christian principles," Vitale's post said. "One of those principles is that we are all created in the image and likeness of God. That image is seen most by our face. I will not wear a mask."
> 
> Vitale said in a video alongside the post that no one is stopping anybody from wearing a face mask, "but quite frankly everyone else's freedom ends at the tip of my nose."
> 
> ................ignore the unelected Dr. Acton's orders, open your counties now before it's too late.............


He's also been associated with the antivaxxer movement.

From https://ballotpedia.org/Nino_Vitale


> What characteristics or principles are most important for an elected official?
> "Honesty and a solid Christian Foundation"


About Christian beliefs:
Mark 12: 29-31 ( often called the Golden Rule--Do unto others as you would have them do unto you )


> 29 And Jesus answered him, The first of all the commandments is, Hear, O Israel; The Lord our God is one Lord:
> 
> 30 And thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind, and with all thy strength: this is the first commandment.
> 
> 31 And the second is like, namely this, *Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. There is none other commandment greater than these.*


It seems obvious that Vitale is simply another fake Christian imposing his personal nut job dogma.
He is a Republican and calls for civil disobedience that entails the risk of death and disease during a crisis. Not in anyway an act of love or caring. To the contrary. 
And he has his office as a podium.

Ohio is not considered part of the Bible Belt, but it does border it and the mentality of Vitale has a lot of influence in parts of Ohio.


----------



## Johnny b

Covid-19 originated in China. 
And Trump knew about it's severity before it got to the US.
And did nothing for months as he denied the coming reality.
And there we were, unprepared.
And here we are today:
1.2 million infected, over 71,000 deaths. And climbing.

https://finance.yahoo.com/news/coro...mp-walks-back-task-force-claim-165942904.html


> The total number of job losses for the month of April alone was more than double the total jobs lost during the Great Recession," said Ahu Yildirmaz, co-head of the ADP Research Institute.


----------



## Johnny b

It's an oped, but worth a read:

* Trump's anti-China theory implodes *

https://www.cnn.com/2020/05/05/opinions/trumps-anti-china-theory-implodes-sachs/index.html


----------



## Johnny b

SeanLaurence said:


> ..................
> 
> ........
> The idea that you have brought up again is that of "Capital being destroyed"
> I am not sure if I am with you on that idea. ..............
> 
> .......


Following up on that aspect, the argument for inflation just popped up in a Bloomberg article:

*Inflation Is the Way to Pay Off Coronavirus Debt *
https://finance.yahoo.com/news/inflation-way-pay-off-coronavirus-103038458.html



> But there's another way that the government can shrink the mountain of debt weighing down the U.S. economy: inflation. Because most interest payments are fixed in nominal terms, inflation makes existing debt less important in real terms. Raising the long-term inflation target from the current 2% to a still-modest 4% would substantially increase the rate at which debt effectively vanishes.


The fallacy of that argument is that once increasing inflation is embraced, how much is too much?
The example used was a period after an expensive World War. 
But the situation was entirely different compared to today.
Then there was a pentup demand for consumer goods, but a strong manufacturing base existed from supporting a war effort and converting back to the production of consumer goods was an entirely different scenario to cash strapped industries and businesses of today facing bankruptcies.
The consumer of that period went into debt ( using credit ) as consumerism ramped up rather than already being heavily in debt, unemployed and often unable to afford necessities, as we are starting to see.

It's a cheap way to pay off debt, but it destroys the value of the currency.
That is the destruction of wealth. The destruction of value.
This is where the government 'prints' more currency.

How much is too much? (rhetorical)

We likely won't see this:
But......
Worst case scenarios, currently Venezuela where street vendors sell cheap trinkets made out of their currency, and in the early 1920's Germany where the US dollar was eventually equivalent to 4,210,500,000,000 German marks.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hyperinflation_in_the_Weimar_Republic#Hyperinflation

............
In 1969, I bought a Chevy Nova SS for $2,660.
In 1997, I bought a Camaro Z28 for $22,000
Today a Camaro SS goes for about $40,000 and up

Well, hold onto your hats auto fans, with inflation, they're going to get even more incredibly expensive.
And I doubt it will be a measly 4%.

Even you every-day Trumpies will be eating beans


----------



## SeanLaurence

If I am remembering my Macro-Economics from 30 years ago correctly, Inflation does what the article says, minimizes the size of the debt by making it worth less. This punishes people who have their savings stored in safe, interest bearing investments. It rewards people with no savings, and their wealth stored in durable, fixed assets.

Guns & Butter. You can easily correlate the money spent on wars with the subsequent inflation following it. Wars need to be paid for. Stuff is manufactured and then consumed with no fixed capital left to show for it.

With a pandemic shutdown, at least you are not getting the destruction of factories, homes, roads, and ships.
If I was a US policymaker I would look at infrastructure spending once everyone can go back to work.
To oversimplify - unemployed waiters and musicians can get jobs paving roads funded (indirectly) by the federal govt.

I think that infrastructure has been poorly maintained lately is that the country has been close to full employment. Who wants to work on a road crew or replace a sewer when there are so many more attractive options available?


----------



## SeanLaurence

Johnny b said:


> Capitalism wasn't designed to be a social institution. It's merely a way of designating value. As such, it shouldn't have influence in social structures.
> Doing so is often called corruption.
> To avoid abuse, laws are generated to protect citizens.
> In reality, just another avenue for corruption, thus labor union came into existence.
> What we see in the US is merely a corrupt version of capitalism, with socialistic influences too.
> Back in the Great Depression, these same influences we see today existed and there was much to do about ditching capitalism.
> There arose, briefly, the concept of enlightened capitalism. It still exists today but doesn't get much press.
> I haven't read the book
> https://www.moralmarkets.org/book/the-enlightened-capitalists/
> But I learned about it through my father that lived through the Great Depression.
> The concept involves ethical considerations to favor a prosperous society and in turn, enhance capitalism.
> 
> Adam Smith is credited for being the father of capitalism.
> But the first book he wrote was "The Theory of Moral Sentiments".
> Smith taught moral philosophy and those ideas have been credited in formulating capitalism in a later book from which his theory of capitalism came from, " An Inquiry into the Nature and Causes of the Wealth of Nations".
> 
> People think of Trump as a 'capitalist' because he ( sometimes ) generates profit.
> As I've said many times, Trump is a malevolent opportunist and obviously has no ethics nor morality as he frequently scams the business world and consumers alike.
> Business leader of his ilk are the reason why capitalism has a bad image today......corruption.
> 
> You believe wrong. White America is still a majority, barely, but the ratios are changing.
> I've heard that by 2050, Hispanics will likely become the majority.
> It's the fear of losing prominence and entitlement that Trump manipulates for his own benefit. It works well in a society that is afflicted with institutional racism.
> 
> LOL!
> Bill was hated by the conservatives of the day.
> I remember the tirades by Rush Limbaugh and wondered, who was this new guy on the Radio?
> Whitewater, among other things, was a 'big deal' but all they could get Bill on was lying to Congress about an affair. And there was Paula the trailer park queen lol! And more.
> However.....
> Everybody is less polarizing than Trump!!!!
> 
> You haven't been watching the stock market nor the balance sheets of major businesses.
> As bad as was the lack of investment capital during the 2008 Great Recession, this recession will be more intense. The fear is another depression.
> 
> A bit of reality:
> https://www.marketwatch.com/story/h...den-the-gap-dividing-rich-and-poor-2020-04-23
> 
> ?
> Yes, I am concerned about the economy. Now and before COVID-19 existed.
> I'm also concerned about the health of my society from a political stand point.
> I see them as different elements, but of equal importance.
> 
> But you are wrong about 'the government' ( the Feds ) wanting the public to stay at home.
> Trump wants everyone back to work as soon as possible if not yesterday.
> He has an election to win and a dead economy won't look good to many of his current supporters.
> The Governors vary from state to state depending on viral status and politics, political depending often on the political party of the Governor.
> 
> To whom?  ...


I enjoyed your writings on how your views on economics etc, have been formed. I have nothing to add or comment on.
Although Rush Limbaugh was quite popular in the 80's, I thought that Clinton enjoyed some level of approval even among conservatives. This chart illustrates that I may be off, but he was still more popular (on average) than GW Bush or Obama:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_presidential_approval_rating

It appears that I am premature in declaring the US a white minority country, but there is definitely a trend in that direction.

Trump was convinced for a while that stay at home orders were the best option. He has always wanted the economy open again.
I am starting to think that he believes that 'his voters' will not be as affected by the virus. For him, it is always about getting re-elected.

In other news: Do you think the appointment of a Trump friend is the first step in rigging a Mail-in vote? Or am I just being paranoid?
https://www.reuters.com/article/us-...or-named-u-s-postmaster-general-idUSKBN22J09T


----------



## Johnny b

SeanLaurence said:


> If I am remembering my Macro-Economics from 30 years ago correctly, Inflation does what the article says, minimizes the size of the debt by making it worth less. This punishes people who have their savings stored in safe, interest bearing investments. It rewards people with no savings, and their wealth stored in durable, fixed assets.
> 
> Guns & Butter. You can easily correlate the money spent on wars with the subsequent inflation following it. Wars need to be paid for. Stuff is manufactured and then consumed with no fixed capital left to show for it.
> 
> With a pandemic shutdown, at least you are not getting the destruction of factories, homes, roads, and ships.
> If I was a US policymaker I would look at infrastructure spending once everyone can go back to work.
> To oversimplify - unemployed waiters and musicians can get jobs paving roads funded (indirectly) by the federal govt.
> 
> I think that infrastructure has been poorly maintained lately is that the country has been close to full employment. Who wants to work on a road crew or replace a sewer when there are so many more attractive options available?





> If I am remembering my Macro-Economics from 30 years ago correctly, Inflation does what the article says, minimizes the size of the debt by making it worth less.


Sophistry.
What high inflation does to due debts is allow the contract to be paid off with 'cheap' money easily obtained, since the debt is often a fixed numerical quantity seldom modified by inflation after the fact. Housing has had exceptions, but there was a lot of grief when interest rates rose.



> This punishes people who have their savings stored in safe, interest bearing investments.


I wouldn't have used the term 'punish', but you're close.
Savings accounts would be hard hit.
But 'interest bearing investments' depends on the type of investment.
Smart money is investing in needful things ( think Buffett ). Their value generally grows with inflation and more, with dividends and stock prices representing the values at inflated prices.
The ultra wealthy get richer during these times because THEY can buy up needful type investment properties on the cheap.
Mostly, the middle class misses out because they can't, they are in a selling mood.



> It rewards people with no savings, and their wealth stored in durable, fixed assets.


Sure, if those investments can keep ahead of their their rising expenses.
The wealthy generally have no problems with this.
But people with no savings, generally don't have many investments to begin with.



> With a pandemic shutdown, at least you are not getting the destruction of factories, homes, roads, and ships.


That's a rather bold statement 
There are major and minor businesses that already have 'been destroyed' and it's still early in the economic doom and gloom cycle of this viral crisis.

So, let me ask you, how many factories in the US were bombed in WW1 and WW2?
I'm not aware of any, but .....are you?

There is an argument that it took a war to get us out of the Great Depression.
Not the start of the war, after the end of it as I projected earlier.

For your intellectual betterment (  )
https://www.forbes.com/sites/peterf...-the-end-of-world-war-ii-not-the-start-of-it/

It's a good read.



> If I was a US policymaker I would look at infrastructure spending once everyone can go back to work.
> To oversimplify - unemployed waiters and musicians can get jobs paving roads funded (indirectly) by the federal govt.


Well....I'm glad you aren't 
But FDR did institute the CCC ( *Civilian Conservation Corps* )
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Civilian_Conservation_Corps
and it seemed to be well received and helped many men struggling to survive.



> I think that infrastructure has been poorly maintained lately is that the country has been close to full employment.


It has been poorly maintained, no argument there.
But imo, from the lack of budgeting for it that extends through many of the past administrations.



> Who wants to work on a road crew or replace a sewer when there are so many more attractive options available?


We in the US do seem spoiled, but what 'attractive options' do you mean?
For those with out a higher education, there is mostly labor. A lot of those jobs in manufacturing were off-shored long ago.
AI has been advancing in manufacturing assembly processes and with COVID among us now, no doubt removing as much of the human factor as possible is being considered for the near future.
AI is even challenging software coders these days. ( small scale, but there )
https://www.enterpriseai.news/2020/02/25/how-ai-is-automating-and-improving-software-programming/
Many professional jobs in the sciences have disappeared as the rest of the world ramped up technology. China becoming a major player in not just manufacturing, but the sciences as well.
'Options'?

[corrected typo]


----------



## Johnny b

SeanLaurence said:


> [edited for brevity]
> 
> In other news: Do you think the appointment of a Trump friend is the first step in rigging a Mail-in vote? Or am I just being paranoid?
> https://www.reuters.com/article/us-...or-named-u-s-postmaster-general-idUSKBN22J09T


It's not paranoia, imo. It could be a factor.
But I think there are there other factors that are on Trump's mind.
One being to punish Bezos, owner of The Washington Post, by raising package rates on Amazon.
I posted an article earlier on this showing that the USPS package rates and Amazon were one of the profitable activities of the USPS and any serious rate increases would likely cause Amazon to change shippers for their overflow. 
And that would only enhance the demise of the USPS.

We have a crazy person for President. He's not logical. Guessing what he's going to do on any one subject at any one time........is problematic 

Maybe he simply doesn't like the USPS


----------



## Johnny b

About that new White House press secretary Kayleigh McEnany .

Just another opportunist that goes with the flow of whoever is in power.
Cute but poisonous.

* Kayleigh McEnany called Trump comment 'racist,' 'hateful' and 'not the American way' in 2015 *
https://www.cnn.com/2020/05/07/politics/kayleigh-mcenany-trump-2015/index.html

It's a short article worth reading.


----------



## Johnny b

With out quality leadership in the midst of a crisis, the worst than can happen likely will.

* U.S. companies kept shipping masks overseas even as hospitals ran out and despite warnings *
https://www.usatoday.com/story/news...g-masks-overseas-despite-warnings/3090505001/



> U.S. companies continued their massive sell-off of medical masks overseas throughout March, well after the coronavirus began infecting Americans and draining hospitals of critical supplies and even as White House officials raised red flags, a USA TODAY investigation found.
> 
> America exported more protective masks - including disposable surgical masks and N95 respirator masks - this March than in any other month in the past decade. In all, $83.1 million worth were sent from the United States to the rest of the world, according to an analysis of the latest U.S. Census Bureau trade data.


Trump blames everything that goes wrong on Obama and Biden.
And yet this happened during his watch, 3 years after being elected to the highest office in the US ( charges and investigations around and about him are no excuse ).



> March's total export figure surpassed the previous high of $74.3 million set in February, when many of the masks went to China. And it far exceeded the average monthly shipment value of $53.3 million over the past decade, USA TODAY's analysis found.


There is a link in the above quote.

* U.S. exported millions in masks and ventilators ahead of the coronavirus crisis *
https://www.usatoday.com/story/news...na-surged-early-phase-coronavirus/5109747002/



> American companies sold more than $17.5 million worth of face masks, more than $13.6 million in surgical garments and more than $27.2 million in ventilators to China during the first two months of the year, far exceeding that of any other similar period in the past decade, according to the most recent foreign trade data available from the U.S. Census Bureau.


Can't blame that on Obama, Biden, Hillary or Pelosi.
The responsibility to look after the security of our nation rests on the President and his advisors.
As much as Trump berates China, he's not adverse to profit making that harms our lives.
It's been reported many times by many sources, even by Trump himself, Trump claims to know better than his advisors. And that started with denials of there being a pandemic in the US, before and during the time frame above.

Is it's Trump's stupidity that's killing us?
Or are his decisions intentional and higher death rates merely an inconvenience to his goals? 

Just think what Trump would be projecting if Hillary had done the same?


----------



## Chawbacon

Ahh.... I see that you guys are still steadily bashing the President at every opportunity. 

It looks like this was a very good News event for the President.



> *DOJ drops criminal case against Michael Flynn*
> https://www.politico.com/news/2020/...-abruptly-withdraws-amid-trump-attacks-243107
> "A review of the facts and circumstances of this case, including newly discovered and disclosed information, indicates that Mr. Flynn's statements were never 'material' to any FBI investigation," read the motion filed Thursday seeking to dismiss the criminal prosecution...
> 
> ..."Even if he told the truth, Mr. Flynn's statements could not have conceivably 'influenced' an investigation that had neither a legitimate counterintelligence nor criminal purpose," Shea's submission says. "A review of the facts and circumstances of this case, including newly discovered and disclosed information, indicates that Mr. Flynn's statements were never 'material' to any FBI investigation."...


----------



## Johnny b

Chawbacon said:


> Ahh.... I see that you guys are still steadily bashing the President at every opportunity.
> 
> It looks like this was a very good News event for the President.


Of course it's good news for Trump.
One more of his cronies ( that even admitted guilt, twice) is back in circulation to do more damage to our society in support of Trump.

At least Trump didn't have to pardon him.
Now that, we could have had a lot of fun with.


----------



## Johnny b

Chawbacon said:


> Ahh.... I see that you guys are still steadily bashing the President at every opportunity.
> ................................


I sense you feel bitter


----------



## SeanLaurence

Chawbacon said:


> Ahh.... I see that you guys are still steadily bashing the President at every opportunity.
> 
> It looks like this was a very good News event for the President.


I don't understand how this helps Trump. I know he really wanted Flynn to walk free but does it help Donald in any way?


----------



## Johnny b

SeanLaurence said:


> I don't understand how this helps Trump. I know he really wanted Flynn to walk free but does it help Donald in any way?


Propaganda.


----------



## Chawbacon

Johnny b said:


> Of course it's good news for Trump.
> One more of his cronies ( that even admitted guilt, twice) is back in circulation to do more damage to our society in support of Trump.
> 
> At least Trump didn't have to pardon him.
> Now that, we could have had a lot of fun with.


Exactly! 


Johnny b said:


> I sense you feel bitter


Nah not bitter at all. Highly amused though.


----------



## Johnny b

Chawbacon said:


> Exactly!
> 
> Nah not bitter at all. Highly amused though.


There seems to be some amusing facts popping up about Flynn's new status and how it was achieved.
Amusing to me (  ) not much for you, Jack lol!

* Filing error adds to twists of Flynn case reversal *
https://www.cnn.com/2020/05/09/politics/filing-error-michael-flynn-case-reversal/index.html

From SNL, some dark Trump humor:
"Surround yourself with with the worst people you can find. That way, you'll always shine. If you don't understand something, just call it stupid. Never wear sunscreen. And live everyday like it's your last because we're gonna let this virus run wild"

The imagery seems to fit him well. .....


----------



## Johnny b

Apparently this is the new 'normal'.
Trump hates the US citizen more than he does China.

* As U.S. meat workers fall sick and supplies dwindle, exports to China soar *
https://finance.yahoo.com/news/u-meat-workers-fall-sick-050948898.html



> CHICAGO (Reuters) - U.S. President Donald Trump ordered meat processing plants to stay open to protect the nation's food supply even as workers got sick and died. Yet the plants have increasingly been exporting to China while U.S. consumers face shortages, a Reuters analysis of government data showed.
> 
> Trump, who is in an acrimonious public dispute with Beijing over its handling of the coronavirus outbreak, invoked the 1950 Defense Production Act on April 28 to keep plants open. Now he is facing criticism from some lawmakers, consumers and plant employees for putting workers at risk in part to help ensure China's meat supply.


Trump damaged US businesses with tariffs to 'level the playing field' ( more like submerging US businesses ) and now he feeds those he calls enemies of the US during a crisis, at the peril of the US. Both the meat packing workers and the consumer.

Trump has been retaining his popularity.
And his supporters cheer him on.
There is something deeply wrong within our society.


----------



## Johnny b

Same old Trump.

Still wanting reporters fired and broadcasters sanctioned.
He's an obviously unhappy wannabe oligarch.
If he wasn't being caught up his constant stream of lies, there probably wouldn't be any negatives of his administration in the news media 
Of course, he'd have to stop with the lies, and that's pretty doubtful 
Apparently that's what he wants, no body catching him on his lies and informing the public.

* Trump again pressures U.S. regulator on news programming *
https://finance.yahoo.com/news/trump-again-pressures-u-regulator-173656160.html

I suspect there's going to be an opening for a new FCC chairman (  )


----------



## Chawbacon

Looks like another win for the Trumpites... and in California of all places. 



> *Republican Mike Garcia picks up Katie Hill's California seat as Dem candidate concedes race*
> https://www.foxnews.com/politics/re...kes-katie-hills-california-congressional-seat
> 
> Democrat Christy Smith conceded the special election race for California's 25th Congressional District to Republican Mike Garcia on Wednesday, marking the first time Republicans will retake a Democratic-held congressional seat in the state since 1998 -- and, Republicans said, indicating that enthusiasm for President Trump is strong heading into the 2020 elections.


----------



## Johnny b

Chawbacon said:


> Looks like another win for the Trumpites... and in California of all places.


Even more interesting, according to Wikipedia, he's the son of immigrants and, unlike Trump, wasn't a draft dodger.
He even saw action in Iraq.
Seems a stable kinda guy.

Some more info here:
https://ballotpedia.org/Mike_Garcia

Nothing like Trump.
Jack? Why would you like him?


----------



## Johnny b

Another victim of the Trump purges:

* State Department watchdog critical of Trump moves fired *
https://www.usatoday.com/story/news...-trump-watchdog-inspector-general/5204743002/



> The decision - made quietly and without explanation - was the latest in a series of purges the White House has undertaken in recent months to remove government overseers who are charged with reporting on government malfeasance and corruption.


Loose lips sink ships 



> "It is vital that I have the fullest confidence in the appointees serving as Inspectors General. That is no longer the case with regard to this Inspector General," President Donald Trump wrote in a letter to House Speaker Nancy Pelosi.


Sad that. Trump lost confidence he could keep his nefarious activities secret.


----------



## Johnny b

This post could have gone to the COVID-19 thread just as well as this one.

Mr. 'I'm smarter than everyone', the 'stable clorox/lysol consuming, fake emissary to God.......has just decreed that Americans have to wear his lies and incompetence that has intensified COVID-19 infection and death as a......*'Badge of Honor'*.

He's 'laughing' at all the misery currently going on in the US and banking on our being as stupid as his advisors.

* Trump calls high number of coronavirus cases in the US a 'badge of honor,' attributes it to testing *
https://www.usatoday.com/story/news...high-us-coronavirus-cases-testing/5225827002/



> "By the way, you know, when you say that we lead in cases, that's because we have more testing than anybody else," the president said at the White House. "When we have a lot of cases, I don't look at that as a bad thing. I look at that in a certain respect as being a good thing, because it means our testing is much better. So, if we were testing a million people instead of 14 million people, it would have far few cases, right?


*" So, if we were testing a million people instead of 14 million people, it would have far few cases, right? "*
Wrong!
You just wouldn't know how many more are infected that go undetected, you lying fool.

Trump will never change. What you see is what you get. Always was and always will be.

A bigger concern is, how many of his followers will nod their heads in agreement and support that argument right up to the election this fall, if he even allows an election.

MAGA.
Make America Great Again.

The US is now third world fodder.










In addition:
Another example of his 'brilliance'


> Trump recently said: "If we did very little testing, [America] wouldn't have the most cases. So, in a way, by doing all of this testing, we make ourselves look bad."


Yep, third world mentality.


----------



## Johnny b

Trump, the stable genius, is at it again.

* Trump threatens to stop funding for Michigan if absentee ballots sent to all voters *
https://www.usatoday.com/story/news...igan-absentee-ballot-applications/5228883002/



> President Donald Trump on Wednesday morning appeared to threaten funding for Michigan amid a global health pandemic if state officials move ahead with plans to send absentee ballot applications to every state voter.
> It was far from clear, however, if the president understood what he was talking about.
> ..................
> But Trump's post on Twitter about 7:50 a.m. appeared to suggest Michigan was in the process of sending absentee ballots themselves - not the applications for people to ask for them if they wish to vote - to voters.
> ...........
> Jake Rollow, Benson's spokesman, also put out a statement saying Trump had it wrong.
> 
> "The Bureau of Elections is mailing absent voter applications, not ballots," he said. "Applications are mailed nearly every election cycle by both major parties and countless advocacy and nonpartisan organizations. Just like them, we have full authority to mail applications to ensure voters know they have the right to vote safely by mail."


Blame it on the Hydroxychloriquine. 






( At the 10 minute mark.......Daddy's got'a ride the 'quine  )


----------



## Brigham

It is probably OK for Trump to take hydroxychloroquine, as he is surrounded by doctors. The problem is when the public try to copy him there maybe many deaths due to cardiac arrhythmias.


----------



## Johnny b

Bet this made Trump's day LOL!


Brigham said:


> It is probably OK for Trump to take hydroxychloroquine, as he is surrounded by doctors. The problem is when the public try to copy him there maybe many deaths due to cardiac arrhythmias.


There is that plus we don't know what dosage he's using.
Those with Lupus and malaria have been using it with a degree of safety, but testing with COVID-19 reports the drug unsafe at what is called 'high doses'.
I haven't found a source that states the size of those 'high doses'.

And there is that nagging question, is he really using the drug?
He lies about a lot of things 
In the scheme of things, this would only be a 'little' lie for him.


----------



## Wino

It's official - he never took the drug. He said yesterday his hydroxychloroquine regime ends in a day or two and wasn't even sure when he started dosing. He lied about taking as is his usual M.O. to bolster his touting the drug and his inability not to lie.


----------



## Wino

https://www.cnn.com/2020/05/21/politics/michigan-attorney-general-trump-ford-plant-cnntv/index.html

Dana Nessel is one of my new heroines for standing up to the whiny morbidly obese petulant child pretend president.


----------



## Johnny b

Wino said:


> https://www.cnn.com/2020/05/21/politSuccinct.ics/michigan-attorney-general-trump-ford-plant-cnntv/index.html
> 
> Dana Nessel is one of my new heroines for standing up to the whiny morbidly obese petulant child pretend president.


I just watch an interview with her on that subject.
Very impressive.
Succinct.


----------



## Wino

If same interview I saw, she sliced and diced the obese idiot with her succinct and sharp tongue lashing - very to the point of matters and his mass of short comings. Her response to his silly tweets of last night twisted the knife. LOL


----------



## Johnny b

Indeed. 
Every comment was upheld with a reasonable explanation.


----------



## Johnny b

Something to remember that I think is important and not seen much in the press.

The results we see at the Johns Hopkins map represents confirmed cases of infection and death.
This data does not represent of the instances missed.

With flu stats, the 64K+ represented total death by an arbitrary mathematical model.
It's been posted that the high number of confirmed deaths was in the 16K+ range, and that adjusted upward to 64K+ to account for missed/incorrect diagnoses.
That's a factor of 4.
To even use a consideration of a factor of 3 for COVID-19 deaths, that would translate to almost 300,000 deaths currently and growing.

This is an issue of reporting.
Confirmed vs actual.

IMO, with a second wave, it's conceivable to lose 1 million or more to COVID-19

And now Trump has declared, if a second wave does hit, nothing will be done to stem those infections and deaths.
Just something he calls, 'putting out the fires', a term with no meaning or explanation.


----------



## Wino

https://www.washingtonpost.com/nation/2020/05/22/trump-ford-mask-coronavirus/


----------



## Wino

With DJT, it's sweep it under the rug and no one will notice. He has little care about others than himself. It's the new republican mantra.


----------



## Johnny b

Wino said:


> With DJT, it's sweep it under the rug and no one will notice. He has little care about others than himself. It's the new republican mantra.


Yes.
And I often get the feeling elements of his support want to believe the disinformation and lies to begin with


----------



## Wino

Johnny b said:


> Yes.
> And I often get the feeling elements of his support want to believe the disinformation and lies to begin with


So true. It's because, like their leader, they are scared and clueless as to what made this country great. I'll never decipher nor understand how we, as a nation, got from FDR to DJT. What really hurts is the realization it was my generation that got us here.


----------



## Johnny b

Wino said:


> ............................... I'll never decipher nor understand how we, as a nation, got from FDR to DJT. .........................


Hard to say.

Even George W Bush doesn't like the guy LOL!!!


----------



## Wino

Johnny b said:


> Hard to say.
> 
> Even George W Bush doesn't like the guy LOL!!!


That's about the ONLY feather in Shrubs bonnet. He is and was a loser in every other way and a precursor to the imbecile we now have. We're still paying for his SNAFU's.


----------



## Johnny b

Indeed. lol!


----------



## Wino

I'm confused. Orange Donnie says twitter is trampling on his 1st amendment rights by labeling some of his tweets as suspect - i.e. outright lie, untruthful, exaggeration, misleading, blatantly incorrect. He still gets to lie and it's left for all to read, just with an added warning that his tweet may be incorrect. They aren't (at least yet) labeling it as an outright lie (which it is). I can't see that his saying he is being denied his rights when the post hasn't been deleted (which it should be IMHO) and still on twitter for all to read - unless like me you have no twitter account or FB or Instagram. I only see his stupid post on forums, newspapers, and internet feeds, which I can easily ignore, which I do, unless it is egregiously idiotic (which is most likely everything he says or posts). Man, you guys really picked a winner !!


----------



## Johnny b

Wino said:


> I'm confused. Orange Donnie says twitter is trampling on his 1st amendment rights by labeling some of his tweets as suspect - i.e. outright lie, untruthful, exaggeration, misleading, blatantly incorrect. He still gets to lie and it's left for all to read, just with an added warning that his tweet may be incorrect. They aren't (at least yet) labeling it as an outright lie (which it is). I can't see that his saying he is being denied his rights when the post hasn't been deleted (which it should be IMHO) and still on twitter for all to read - unless like me you have no twitter account or FB or Instagram. I only see his stupid post on forums, newspapers, and internet feeds, which I can easily ignore, which I do, unless it is egregiously idiotic (which is most likely everything he says or posts). Man, you guys really picked a winner !!


Sometimes a photo explains it all.
This is what Trump wants.
This is what radical fundamentalists offer:










IMO, scary.


----------



## Wino

That's enough to make a maggot puke.


----------



## Johnny b

Making America great Trump style......appears to be the removal of the 1st Amendment.


> *Amendment I*
> Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances.


* Trump threatens to 'strongly regulate' or 'close down' social media platforms after Twitter fact check *
https://www.usatoday.com/story/tech...eck-trump-twitter-mail-in-ballots/5265036002/



> After tweeting Tuesday that "Twitter is now interfering in the 2020 Presidential Election" and "stifling FREE SPEECH," Trump tweeted again Wednesday about social media platforms without specifically naming Twitter, which has been his favorite platform to post unfiltered views to his millions of followers.
> 
> Claiming "Republicans feel that Social Media Platforms totally silence conservatives voices," Trump tweeted, "We will strongly regulate, or close them down, before we can ever allow this to happen."


To the militia, that make such a big deal about being patriots, would you oppose the loss of your freedom of speech granted by the Constitution, or support a fascist regime and the destruction of the 1st Amendment?

( rhetorical..... )


----------



## Wino

All he has to do is quit lying every time he opens his mouth - problem solved !!


----------



## Johnny b

Wino said:


> All he has to do is quit lying every time he opens his mouth........................


Thanks for the laugh


----------



## Johnny b

Just another distraction by Trump as death by COVID-19 passes 100,000 and an election approaches:

* Trump news - live: President to sign executive order pursuing social media giants amid silence over US reaching 100,000 dead *
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/...s-briefing-today-us-cases-biden-a9536156.html

Will the militias of today reject Trump's assault on 1st Amendment rights?
Logically, that should be their position if true 'patriots'.

Or, as patriots in a fascist un-American endeavor, ignore on the issue, backing the citizen's right to die as a badge of honor in salvaging the Trump economy and winning one for the future president-for-life?

( I suspect the latter )


----------



## Johnny b

It just gets better and better 

The question "is", who around Trump hasn't been implicated in criminal activity? ( LOL! }

Now it's Trump's new campaign chief of staff, Stephanie Alexander ( aka Stephanie Milligan )

* The Trump campaign's new chief of staff was arrested on campaign finance charges in 2016 after cops busted her boyfriend for cocaine and found incriminating texts on his phone *
https://www.businessinsider.com/tru...arged-with-campaign-finance-violations-2020-5

(charges dropped with out explanation in 2017  )

Her booking photo ( LOL! )










Really now....is anybody surprised or shocked? It is Trump after all. "Only the best of the Best".


----------



## Johnny b

The princess of poison, White House press secretary Kayleigh McEnany, has voted by mail-in ballot for more than a decade, but denies the general pubic the same courtesy.

* Trump press secretary defends her own mail-in votes after attacking expanded absentee ballot access *
https://www.cnbc.com/amp/2020/05/27...e-ballots-after-attacking-voting-by-mail.html

Of course....don't do as I do, do as my boss says.



> A review of state records shows that McEnany has voted by absentee ballot every time she has voted since 2008, a total of 12 times, most recently this March in the 2020 presidential primary.
> 
> In addition to being an absentee voter herself, McEnany is also a high-profile defender of President Donald Trump's recent attacks on expanding mail-in ballots.


Crooks and hypocrites. 
That's most likely how history will look back at Trumpism


----------



## Johnny b

Glory to the King!
( or something  )

* Twitter adds 'glorifying violence' warning to Trump tweet *
https://finance.yahoo.com/news/twitter-adds-glorifying-violence-warning-085047821.html

Hey Big Don--------


----------



## Wino

This nation elected a dodo and now we are in deep doo doo because of the dotard !


----------



## Johnny b

As stupid as Trump appears, and it is one of his great accomplishments, however, the destruction he's accomplished from inauguration day, has been efficient and well planned .

He's essentially convinced the citizens of the US to destroy themselves in controversy.


----------



## Johnny b

Trump cares ( LOL! )

* North Carolina governor: Trump insisted on full convention with no face masks or social distancing *
https://www.cnn.com/2020/05/29/poli...nor-trump-convention-no-face-masks/index.html



> President Donald Trump called Democratic North Carolina Gov. Roy Cooper on Friday and insisted on a full Republican convention this summer with no face masks or social distancing, according to a spokesperson for the governor.
> "The Governor spoke to the President today. When the President insisted on a full convention arena with no face coverings and no social distancing the Governor expressed concerns and suggested a scaled back event with fewer attendees," said Sadie Weiner, a spokeswoman for the governor, in a statement. "They agreed to continue talking about ways to have a safe convention in Charlotte."


Just bring your stash of Clorox and Lysol spray and everything will be peachy keen lol!


----------



## Wino

I'm thinking purple kool-aid spiced with Clorox and Lysol Jello shooters with platters of powdered hydroxychloroquine for snorting.
My suggestion to NC guv is to give Trump his convention his way, but make it like Hotel California - you can check in, but never leave.


----------



## 2twenty2

Spurs coach Gregg Popovich goes off on 'deranged' Donald Trump



> Enraged San Antonio Spurs coach Gregg Popovich sharply criticized the lack of leadership shown by U.S. President Donald Trump and called him a coward in the wake of week-long protests surrounding the death of George Floyd.
> 
> Popovich told The Nation that Trump is "deranged" and incapable of saying "black lives matter" at a time when the nation desperately needs to hear those words from the leader of the country. more>


----------



## Wino

Pop has always been vocal about the stupid mop head - always dead on target about the bottom feeding orange koi.


----------



## Couriant

*American Carnage at Lafayette Square*

If there is a reason to get this complete twat out of office, this should be the tipping point.

All that.. for a photo op.... and even expelled the priest of that church....

Vote this lunatic out once and for all.


----------



## Johnny b

Unidentified armed security are being observed in DC.

* 
"Unacceptable": Democrats sound alarm over unidentified law enforcement patrolling D.C. protests *
https://www.cbsnews.com/news/washington-dc-protests-unidentified-law-enforcement-officers/



> "Unacceptable for uniformed federal officers policing constitutionally-protected assemblies to refuse to identify themselves to people who pay their salaries," Beyer tweeted Wednesday. "Denying accountability to the public they serve ensures abuses."


This begs the question, are they in fact, Federal, State or Local security forces?
Or, are some private contractors (mercenaries)?
Trump has had ties with private security/contractors in the past and even hired the sister of the founder of Blackwater, as US Secretary of Education.

https://prospect.org/power/trump-s-private-security-force-operational-legal-swamp/

https://www.politico.com/story/2016/12/donald-trump-security-force-232797

https://www.pbs.org/newshour/politi...-private-security-firms-election-records-show

https://www.thedailybeast.com/trump-to-keep-his-own-private-security

..............................
And here, Trump's political association with the infamous Erik Prince, brother of Betsy DeVos and founder of the mercenary army(contractors) , Blackwater.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Erik_Prince#Ties_to_Trump_campaigns

...................
Trump, Mattis and Blackwater:
https://www.militarytimes.com/news/...-is-out-and-blackwater-is-back-we-are-coming/

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Erik_Prince#Ties_to_Trump_campaigns

https://www.haaretz.com/middle-east...ks-to-trump-for-a-comeback-in-syria-1.6850563

Will Trump look to Academi ( the old Blackwater mercenaries) for a 'come-back' in the US if the US Military won't play his 'game'?

Are they here already?


----------



## Wino

Shades of Saddam's Elite Republican Guard.

If the military adhere's to the Constitution, Blackwater will be destroyed in moments. If not, we're all screwed.


----------



## Johnny b

Wino said:


> Shades of Saddam's Elite Republican Guard.
> 
> If the military adhere's to the Constitution, Blackwater will be destroyed in moments. If not, we're all screwed.


This current push for 'Nationalism' and MAGA is the promotion of a strong state. Not the promotion of a strong and healthy society.
Those followers are trading Constitutional Rights for a stronger state, at the expense of a free society.

Biden has stated about 10 to 15% of the public are 'bad people'( "not very good people" lol! ).
IMO, since the Trump base is about 35% of the voting public, I think his numbers are low.


----------



## Johnny b

What is banned as a chemical weapon in war, is being used on American citizens that protest peacefully.

* Fact check: It's true tear gas is a chemical weapon banned in war *
https://www.usatoday.com/story/news...ar-gas-chemical-weapon-banned-war/3156448001/


----------



## Wino

Johnny b said:


> This current push for 'Nationalism' and MAGA is the promotion of a strong state. Not the promotion of a strong and healthy society.
> Those followers are trading Constitutional Rights for a stronger state, at the expense of a free society.
> 
> Biden has stated about 10 to 15% of the public are 'bad people'( "not very good people" lol! ).
> IMO, since the Trump base is about 35% of the voting public, I think his numbers are low.


Turnips support is bleeding out. I agree with your premise regarding his supporters and % of bad is about 30% not 15% or so. He has been crotch kicked fairly heavy this week - NFL support is ebbing; Twitter; FB is reevaluating their hands off; Canada, Germany, Mexico questioning; ex-military and civilian office holders saying nasty things (all true, but nasty), Murkowski, Romney, others will follow when they find their spines and decide country over tyrant. Not feeling near as bad about Nov. 2020 as I have been. He keeps tightening his own noose. Definitely feel the worm is turning.


----------



## Johnny b

Wino said:


> Turnips support is bleeding out. ..................


Good post.
Trump is projecting his true nature and notables around him are starting to project criticism.

There is a lot not getting attention, though, that needs exposure.
Exactly, who are the unidentified in Barr's secret army?
The Trump administration has contracts with several private contractors ( mercs ) and Trump himself has used Academi before, during and after being elected for personal security.
Academi seems to have deep contractual involvements in much of our government's security.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Academi#Services_and_products

Qanon is reported to be involved on the sidelines in the current protests.

Boogaloo Bois
( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boogaloo_movement )
are marching with the BLM protesters ( they're the ones carring 'long guns' often wearing Hawaiian shirts), some claiming they're protecting the rights of the protestors, some calling for a war against the left, and some even calling for a race war.
BLM leaders seem aware of the above and cautious, even spooked by the inconsistencies.
What is their 'game plan'?

White supremacists have been seen in the BLM protests, inciting and egging on the violence being seen.
How big is their involvement?

And of course, what are the militias up to, or are they essentially the above?


----------



## Johnny b

I can't link to this particular youtube video because of language used, but explains a lot of the negatives on what is currently going on in law enforcement and why.

Do a search on Youtube for the latest John Oliver vid.
Title:
* Police: Last Week Tonight with John Oliver *
The language is extremely vulgar but the last minutes express the reasons of why there is civil unrest.

(Don't watch if easily offended with crude language. This is reality whether you approve or not.)


----------



## SeanLaurence

Johnny b, You are fron Ohio right?
Is this for real?
Cities are just police departments with some underfunded services on the side.
https://t.co/uvFcH0oT5D">pic.twitter.com/uvFcH0oT5D


----------



## Wino

Don't know about Ohio, but in my city police/fire are 65% of budget with everything else in low one to two digit percentages.


----------



## Johnny b

SeanLaurence said:


> Johnny b, You are fron Ohio right?
> Is this for real?
> Cities are just police departments with some underfunded services on the side.
> https://t.co/uvFcH0oT5D">pic.twitter.com/uvFcH0oT5D


It's sorta close.

Use this for reference:
https://www.columbus.gov/WorkArea/DownloadAsset.aspx?id=2147512557
( it's a slow 76 mb download or if in your browser, page 26 for a precise breakdown.)
Yeah, it's damn big compared to the rest of services, but so is Fire)


----------



## Johnny b

Wino said:


> Don't know about Ohio, but in my city police/fire are 65% of budget with everything else in low one to two digit percentages.


I did the percentages on Columbus.
Police and Fire run about 67% of the budget.
Police ( alone ) 37%


----------



## Johnny b

While racial insensitivity ( let's be real--->racism) has always been buried in American culture and society, the 'dog whistles' of our President are emboldening and bringing out the worst examples.






No white sheets, no militia garb, not even a MAGA hat or attire......someone that could live next door and you'd never really know them till something like the above encounter.
'They' live among us and believe they have entitlements and rights that supersede ethics, morality, Christian beliefs and the US Constitution.
Well dressed scum is all I see.

Fortunately, the white woman in the video wasn't armed.


----------



## Johnny b

The Army of Trump.

This is not a joke, it's real.


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1268570177484001287
Screen shot:










$35 gets you a camo hat and enlistment in an army of fools 

...............................
https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/trump-army-fundraising-email/
True










What a dangerous buffoon.


----------



## Johnny b

Jim Jordan,
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jim_Jordan_(American_politician)

Founding member of the Freedom Caucus and ally of Donald Trump.
His new spiel:

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1270797785672101892*" All life is precious" *

https://www.vox.com/policy-and-poli...th-sides-police-violence-george-floyd-brother


> *Some Republicans seemed more worried about protecting law enforcement than addressing police brutality *
> 
> ......Jordan said that the idea of abolishing or defunding the police is inconsistent with the statement "all life is precious," even though the bill in question wasn't proposing either of those things.
> 
> Jordan continued his back-and-forth with Bongino, hitting on this theme more clearly. "I think in your testimony earlier, you said if police forces are abolished, if police forces are defunded ... we're talking about human beings, we're talking about officers who put on their uniforms and protect our communities," he said. "It will put their lives at risk, won't it?"


But has Jordan always practiced what he preaches?
Or just full of hot air and malice.

As a wrestling coach, protection of the innocent appeared not to be one of his concerns.
And It's costing Ohio State University millions of dollars in settling lawsuits.

https://www.jdsupra.com/legalnews/ohio-state-buckeyes-will-pay-41-million-72538/
* Ohio State Buckeyes will pay $41 million to settle some claims over twisted team doctor *


> Jim Jordan, a onetime OSU assistant wrestling coach and now a leading conservative of extreme views in the U.S. House, has denied knowing about the abuse that occurred during his time at the school. Students have said they told him about the wrongdoing that investigators say may have affected more than 170 youths.
> 
> The announced settlement with 162 parties does not resolve all the claims pending, and those who agreed to accept the payments said the sums were too small and failed to give them a sense of closure or justice.


IMO, when Jordan is speaking about all life being precious, he's only promoting his own at the expense of others.
Just another malevolent opportunist.


----------



## Wino

Speaking of racial insensitivity - Turnip has decided to start his rallies up again on June 19th in Tulsa, OK - that would be Juneteenth at the site of a bloody black massacre in 1921.

You can bet when Miller told Trump of the significance of June 19th and Tulsa, OK (you know he didn't know) rather than saying " That seems such a terrible idea considering the current times. Maybe we should find another date and venue", but wet his pants with glee and shouted "Stephen, you're a genius. I love it. Let's smear their frigging face in it!"

This man and his followers are tone deaf and totally clueless - human stains of history.

You just can't make this crap up:

https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-new...-ought-be-shot-more-police-top-tulsa-n1229981


----------



## Johnny b

Trump has made the once great nation, the US of A, into a third world nation.
Economically, morally, ethically and now racially. And it appeals to like minds.


----------



## Johnny b

But...but....but.....................?
LOL!

* Trump hasn't followed through on plan to withdraw US from WHO *
https://arstechnica.com/tech-policy...owed-through-on-plan-to-withdraw-us-from-who/

Maybe Donald was simply distracted in his efforts to sell camo hats with offers for enlistment into his private army?


----------



## Johnny b

I often wonder how many TSG visitors read the threads in this forum.

Oh well..............


----------



## Johnny b

Trump's swamp buddies:

* Mnuchin secrecy on bailout sparks rift with Congress *
https://www.politico.com/news/2020/06/12/mnuchin-secrecy-bailout-rift-congress-315940



> Mnuchin ignited controversy on Wednesday when he said the Trump administration will not reveal the names of companies and nonprofits that got the so-called Paycheck Protection Program loans, which are guaranteed by the taxpayer and can be forgiven in full if borrowers maintain their payrolls.


----------



## Wino

Johnny b said:


> I often wonder how many TSG visitors read the threads in this forum.
> 
> Oh well..............


Well, there was one guest when I just checked in.............................probably a bot.


----------



## Johnny b

LOL!


----------



## Wino

Now there are six guest....................................................probably bots, too.


----------



## Johnny b

* Too Much And Never Enough *

A new book coming out by the niece of Trump. Mary Trump, a trained clinical psychologist.
Titled:
* "Too Much And Never Enough: How My Family Created the World's Most Dangerous Man," *

Sounds like an interesting read LOL!

* Mary Trump, Donald Trump's niece, dishes on 'toxic family,' 'dark history' in book coming in July *
https://www.usatoday.com/story/ente...y-trump-tells-all-family-new-book/3191031001/



> ......the president's only niece, "shines a bright light on the dark history of their family in order to explain how her uncle became the man who now threatens the world's health, economic security, and social fabric."





> She describes a nightmare of traumas, destructive relationships, and a tragic combination of neglect and abuse."


Ya just gotta wonder how many Trumpites will identify with that in a positive manner


----------



## Johnny b

Wino said:


> Now there are six guest....................................................probably bots, too.


I haven't seen any yet this morning.


----------



## Johnny b

* Trump praises scientists for nonexistent AIDS vaccine, predicts COVID-19 vaccine by the end of 2020 *
https://www.usatoday.com/story/news...-praises-nonexistent-aids-vaccine/3202516001/



> President Donald Trump on Tuesday said he believes there will be a vaccine for the coronavirus ready by the end of this year, and incorrectly stated that scientists and doctors developed a vaccine for AIDS, the most advanced stage of HIV.
> 
> "These are the people, the best, the smartest, the most brilliant anywhere, and they've come up with the AIDS vaccine. They've come up with - or the AIDS, and, as you know, there's various things and now various companies involved. But the therapeutic for AIDS," Trump said from the White House Rose Garden.


Dan Quayle said it best:


> "What a waste it is to lose one's mind. Or not to have a mind is being very wasteful. How true that is."


----------



## Johnny b

So many books, so little time lol!

* 'Driven by re-election': John Bolton book accuses Donald Trump of seeking foreign help for political gain *
https://www.usatoday.com/story/news...urity-adviser-blasts-donald-trump/3208208001/

edit:
* Trump asked China's Xi to help him win reelection, according to Bolton book *
https://www.washingtonpost.com/poli...ea601c-ad7a-11ea-868b-93d63cd833b2_story.html

In 2016 it was Putin and the Russians.
Will Xi Jinping co-operate in 2020? ( LOL! )


----------



## Wino

From what I've seen and read Xi is all in on Turnip winning since it helps boost China around the world as the USA becomes a 3rd world nation with a tin pot dictator at the helm.


----------



## Johnny b

Wino said:


> From what I've seen and read Xi is all in on Turnip winning since it helps boost China around the world as the USA becomes a 3rd world nation with a tin pot dictator at the helm.


That's the reality of Trump's administration.
Sell us out in order to get re-elected.
No doubt all this will all be written off as 'Trump bashing' by his supporters.


----------



## Johnny b

Amazing...Facebook has removed some of Trump's campaign ads.
The claim is.....A NAZI symbol was being used in them.

*Facebook removes Trump campaign ads with symbol once used by Nazis*
https://www.usatoday.com/story/news...campaign-ads-nazi-related-symbols/3215820001/



> The ads called on the president's supporters to sign a petition and "stand with President Trump against ANTIFA," referring to the name for loosely affiliated, left-leaning anti-racist groups that the president has blamed for violence in recent nationwide protests against police brutality and racial discrimination.
> 
> The image attached to the ad was a downward-pointing red triangle, which Anti-Defamation League CEO Jonathan Greenblatt noted on Twitter was the symbol the Nazis used to identify political victims in concentration camps.


----------



## Johnny b

An interesting article at Mother Jones:

* Trump Has a Half Billion in Loans Coming Due. They May Be His Biggest Conflict of Interest Yet. *
https://www.motherjones.com/politics/2020/06/donald-trump-loans-deutsche-bank/



> On financial disclosure forms, Trump has reported holding 14 loans on 12 properties. At least six of those loans, representing about $479 million in debt, are due over the next four years. Some are guaranteed by Trump himself, meaning a creditor could come after his personal-not corporate-assets if he defaults. If he holds onto the White House, the refinancing of these debts could take his conflicts of interest to absurd new heights. How will the public know if these deals are on the up and up or whether Trump is receiving sweetheart terms from a bank that wants an in with the president? And what might a lender desire in return for helping Trump out of a financial jam?


----------



## Johnny b

The oligarch of New York speaketh:

* President Trump threatens 'any protesters' at his rally: Tulsa is a 'different scene' than liberal cities *
https://news.yahoo.com/president-trump-threatens-any-protesters-tulsa-rally-144236794.html



> "Any protesters, anarchists, agitators, looters or lowlifes who are going to Oklahoma please understand, you will not be treated like you have been in New York, Seattle, or Minneapolis," wrote Trump on Twitter Friday morning. "It will be a much different scene!"


Well, there goes his support in the Boogaloo  ( lol )


----------



## Johnny b

The Tulsa rally.
(let the whining begin  )














































************************














(and now for some grumbling and interesting excuses)


----------



## Johnny b

This is what failure looks like:


----------



## Johnny b

'The man that's killing America'

* 'I Don't Kid': Trump Says He Wasn't Joking About Slowing Testing *
https://www.forbes.com/sites/jackbr...p-says-he-wasnt-joking-about-slowing-testing/



> Speaking to reporters on Tuesday, President Trump doubled down on his claim that case numbers are rising in the U.S. because of increased testing, and said he wasn't joking when he said during a rally in Tulsa, Oklahoma on Saturday that he told officials to slow down testing, one day after the White House insisted the president was speaking in "jest."


----------



## Johnny b

This comment was posted in Random.



> trump helps veterans more than obama past........................


Frequently claims like this are made with no source to verify, just typical BS.

So, what about it?

From 
https://budget.house.gov/publications/report/president-trump-s-extreme-budget-cuts-hurt-veterans
* President Trump's Extreme Budget Cuts Hurt Veterans *

Highlights:


> The President's budget cuts $1.6 trillion on net from health care programs over 10 years. This includes a more than $900 billion cut to Medicaid, a half a trillion-dollar cut to Medicare, and more than $200 billion in cuts to other health programs.
> 
> Approximately 1.7 million veterans rely on Medicaid - The budget slashes Medicaid by $900 billion over 10 years. Nearly 1 in 10 veterans
> 
> More than half of all veterans, approximately 9.3 million, rely on Medicare - The budget cuts Medicare by more than $500 billion over 10 years, primarily by cutting payments to hospitals and other providers. Medicare beneficiaries include more than 9.3 million veterans who rely on the program as their primary or supplementary source of insurance coverage.
> 
> Cuts to Social Security Take Benefits Away From Wounded Warriors
> President Trump's budget cuts Social Security benefits by at least $24 billion over 10 years
> 
> Extreme Cuts to SNAP and Other Benefits for Struggling Families Threaten Veterans' Economic Security
> Nearly 1.3 million veterans live in households that participate in SNAP - The President's budget cuts $292 billion over 10 years from mandatory programs that support working and vulnerable families, including $182 billion from SNAP.
> 
> Cuts to TANF and child nutrition programs hurt veterans and their families
> 
> No New Housing Vouchers for Homeless Veterans
> While the President's budget increases the Department of Veterans Affairs' (VA) funding to reduce veteran homelessness, it slashes funding for the Housing and Urban Development's (HUD) rental assistance programs by $3.5 billion in 2021, providing zero new funds for the Veterans Affairs Supportive Housing Vouchers (HUD-VASH) program.


....................



> trump helps veterans more than obama past........................


From the Dan Quayle archives


> "What a waste it is to lose one's mind. Or not to have a mind is being very wasteful. How true that is."


How true that is


----------



## Johnny b

> trump helps veterans more than obama past........................


* Russian bounties to Taliban-linked militants resulted in deaths of U.S. troops, according to intelligence assessments *
https://www.washingtonpost.com/nati...ffaec2-b96a-11ea-80b9-40ece9a701dc_story.html

* Spies and Commandos Warned Months Ago of Russian Bounties on U.S. Troops *
https://www.nytimes.com/2020/06/28/us/politics/russian-bounties-warnings-trump.html

Trumps response:

* Trump denies knowing about intelligence report that Russia put bounty on U.S. troops serving in Afghanistan *
https://www.usatoday.com/story/news...rump-briefed-russia-bounty-report/3272352001/



> "Nobody briefed or told me, @VP Pence, or Chief of Staff @MarkMeadows about the so-called attacks on our troops in Afghanistan by Russians, as reported through an 'anonymous source' by the Fake News @nytimes," Trump wrote. "Everybody is denying it & there have not been many attacks on us....."
> 
> In another tweet, Trump wrote: "Nobody's been tougher on Russia than the Trump Administration."





















And this one :up:










More like 'besties'


----------



## Wino

More like horrid "beasties" IMHO.


----------



## Johnny b

Fox News.

*Pelosi says she doesn't know 'what the Russians have on' Trump after reports of bounties on US troops*

https://www.foxnews.com/politics/pe...mp-following-reports-of-bounties-on-us-troops

When Fox News posts something like that, there must be horrendous implications even they can't over look.

I wonder how long their new vision will last.


----------



## ekim68

Roblox accounts being hacked in support of Trump reelection



> A hacking campaign is targeting Roblox accounts to support President Trump in the upcoming U.S. Presidential elections in November.
> 
> Roblox is an online gaming platform that allows members to create games and publish them for others to play. With over 100 million monthly active users and consistently in the top hundred sites globally, Roblox is an immensely popular gaming platform.


----------



## Johnny b

* AP sources: White House aware of Russian bounties in 2019 *

https://www.daytondailynews.com/new...russian-bounties-2019/5ZVepTL9LM2mO4jGZhS1KP/



> Top officials in the White House were aware in early 2019 of classified intelligence indicating Russia was secretly offering bounties to the Taliban for the deaths of Americans, a full year earlier than has been previously reported, according to U.S. officials with direct knowledge of the intelligence.
> 
> The assessment was included in at least one of President Donald Trump's written daily intelligence briefings at the time, according to the officials. Then-national security adviser John Bolton also told colleagues he briefed Trump on the intelligence assessment in March 2019.


MAGA....BS!


----------



## Wino

They should change MAGA to MRSA - while being a terrible staph infection it also means Make Russia Super Again. How this nation ended up electing a moronic imbecilic traitor as president is simply stupefying. There is no bottom to the abasement this putrid human will subject this nation.


----------



## Johnny b

Agreed!


----------



## Johnny b

Wow!
This news item says a lot about the loyalty of the Senate to the American public and a democratic society:

* Senate removes measure demanding campaigns report foreign election help *
https://www.usatoday.com/story/news...igns-report-foreign-election-help/5351046002/



> A measure requiring presidential campaigns to report any attempts by foreign entities interfering in U.S. elections was stripped by Senate Republicans as a condition of passing the National Defense Authorization Act (NDAA) in a "backroom deal" Sen. Mark Warner, D-VA., said Tuesday.
> 
> The NDAA, which is being debated on the Senate floor this week, will include the Intelligence Authorization Act but not the amendment requiring campaigns to report foreign help to the proper authorities after that provision was stripped from the bipartisan defense bill.


Our troops have bounties put on them by an enemy nation and the President does nothing but deny there is a problem, and now the Senate opens 'the door' to welcome foreign influence on our election process.

:down:


----------



## Johnny b

Well well well 

* Supreme Court to decide if Congress can get secret Russia grand jury materials *

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news...ts-get-russia-grand-jury-material/3260227001/



> The Supreme Court agreed Thursday to consider blocking Congress' access to secret grand jury materials from the probe into Russian interference in the 2016 election.
> 
> The action was a victory for the Trump administration, which is fighting to keep a House committee controlled by Democrats from obtaining material it says could lead to another impeachment inquiry.


That Russian thing again lol!


----------



## Johnny b

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news...a-vintage-shop-attracts-attention/5365403002/


----------



## Johnny b

* Trump Whines He's Not Getting Praised for a Recovery With 25 Million People Still Out of Work *

https://news.yahoo.com/trump-whines-not-getting-praised-075246459.html



> According to three people who've independently spoken to the president, Trump makes a point of regularly complaining that the media has not given him the kudos he deserves for "leading" what he deems to be a smashing economic recovery.


----------



## Johnny b

This is an Opinion piece.
And there is reasonable concern for it's conclusions.

* How Trump Could Lose the Election-And Still Remain President | Opinion *

https://www.newsweek.com/how-trump-could-lose-election-still-remain-president-opinion-1513975


----------



## Johnny b

Over time, Covid seems to be stalking Donald getting closer and closer as the election nears.
Secret Service men close to Trump infected, campaign workers infected and now his son's girlfriend.

* Kimberly Guilfoyle, Donald Trump Jr.'s girlfriend and campaign official, tests positive for coronavirus *
https://www.usatoday.com/story/news...ficial-tests-positive-coronavirus/5374526002/

I wonder if Las Vegas has a betting pool on him making it to November?

Kinda reminds me of a joke book.
50 yards to the Outhouse by Willy Makette.


----------



## Wino

COVFEFE-45 virus is immune to COVID-19 - stronger virus that 19 wants nothing to do with. Kinda like the nation currently.


----------



## Johnny b

Time for a closer look.

Who supports Trump?
What are their goals and how do they advocate doing it?

This is but one avenue of support, but it's a major one.

Fox News.
Of course anyone that criticizes Trump is going to be polarized about the integrity of that outlet to start with, but is it justified? ( , yeah you knowwhat's coming  )

After a national holiday of Trump posing as a patriot, Fox follows it up with
********* Trump should add 'positivity' to election bid: Americans 'want their lives back' *
******** is Charlie Kirk of Turning Point USA 


> President needs to recapture the spark of his 2016 campaign, the Turning Point USA founder says
> 
> Blame the media and the coronavirus for President Trump's current campaign woes, Charlie Kirk said Saturday.
> 
> His advice for the president: Trump should use positivity to jumpstart and reenergize his reelection bid.
> 
> "I think that America right now, because of the propaganda media and the activist wing of the Democrat Party, America feels a little bit down right now," Kirk said during an appearance on Fox News' "Justice with Judge Jeanine."


I often wonder if the readers and viewers of Fox News ever bother to check out the people Fox News uses as authoritative sources.
So who is Charlie Kirk, what are his beliefs and can he be trusted?

I realize the usual suspects will complain and whine if I use the main stream media for info on Charlie, so I'll use Wikipedia. Yes, they will still whine, that's what they do about reality issues that do not favor their politics  .

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charlie_Kirk_(activist)

There is simply too much there to copy and paste.
A few high lights.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charlie_Kirk_(activist)#Professor_Watchlist
This is Charlie doing his rendition of Joe McCarthy.
From a kernel of truth, an exaggeration is argued.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charlie_Kirk_(activist)#Instances_of_racism_and_anti-semitism
The reality of his hidden character ( Charlie and Donald, like minds )

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charl...mation_League_and_Southern_Poverty_Law_Center
The listing of Turning Point USA being associated with political extremists.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charl...nflicts_with_other_conservative_organizations
( LOL! enough said )

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charlie_Kirk_(activist)#Internal_dissension
Not everyone in TPUSA loves Charlie ( LOL )


> "Charlie Kirk can be a little bit of a snowflake - or a lot a bit of a snowflake." Other complaints concerned sexual harassment and assault at TPUSA events.


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charlie_Kirk_(activist)#Alleged_tax_code_violations


> Right Wing Watch has reported that TPUSA has used staff and resources for political action against Congresswoman Ilhan Omar


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charlie_Kirk_(activist)#COVID-19_conspiracy_theories
The Chinese whispers of Charlie and those that use them, right up to King Donald himself.
A quotable 'Alex Jones' 

And of course the topic of false voter fraud claims:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charlie_Kirk_(activist)#False_voter_fraud_claims

........................

And this:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charlie_Kirk_(activist)#Founder_Charlie_Kirk

https://www.foxnews.com/media/charl...-election-bid-americans-want-their-lives-back

That's what you get when you accept authoritative experts at Fox News


----------



## Cookiegal

Kanye West says he's running for President again. You guys could go from one idiot to another. 

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-53297864



> US rapper Kanye West has said he is running for president, potentially pitting him against a man he says he admires, Donald Trump.


----------



## Johnny b

I saw that and immediately went to Wikipedia to check him out.

I think I have a better chance at getting elected with a hole in my head.



edit:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kanye_West#Mental_health


----------



## Cookiegal

Johnny b said:


> I think I have a better chance at getting elected with a hole in my head.


I don't know about that. He could get elected just because he's black and famous or rather infamous.


----------



## Johnny b

He'll likely only appeal to the people that like his music and buy his records.
He's just too unstable ( seriously )


----------



## Cookiegal

Johnny b said:


> He's just too unstable ( seriously )


I agree, totally.


----------



## Wino

Johnny b said:


> He'll likely only appeal to the people that like his music and buy his records.
> He's just too unstable ( seriously )


He's crazy as a loon, but he isn't as deranged as Turnip and much less unstable - I doubt you could shove onion skin paper between their individual insanities - either is a loser as far as humanity is concerned.


----------



## Johnny b

This is what a 3rd world nation looks like:

* Trump claims 99% of US Covid-19 cases are 'totally harmless' as infections surge *
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2...ases-are-totally-harmless-as-infections-surge

The title is bad enough, read the body of the article.



> The coronavirus has infected 2.8m Americans and killed nearly 130,000, the worst tallies in the world.
> 
> We've learned how to put out the flame
> 
> The number of infections now regularly tops 50,000 per day
> 
> Now we have tested almost 40m people. By so doing, we show cases, 99% of which are totally harmless.
> 
> "China's secrecy, deceptions and cover up allowed it to spread all over the world. One hundred and eighty-nine countries and China must be held fully accountable."
> 
> There was applause from the guests


and then there was this from the man that pretends to be a leader:



> "We are now in the process of defeating the radical left, the Marxists, the anarchists, the agitators, the looters, and people who in many instances have absolutely no clue what they are doing,"
> 
> * "In every age, there have always been those who lie about the past in order to gain power in the present *


Welcome to Nineteen Eighty-Four, America 2.0


----------



## Johnny b

No surprise here:

* Trump-connected lobbyists reap windfall in federal virus aid *
https://finance.yahoo.com/news/trump-connected-lobbyists-reap-windfall-094549760.html



> Forty lobbyists with ties to President Donald Trump helped clients secure more than $10 billion in federal coronavirus aid, among them five former administration officials whose work potentially violates Trump's own ethics policy, according to a report.
> 
> The lobbyists identified Monday by the watchdog group Public Citizen either worked in the Trump executive branch, served on his campaign, were part of the committee that raised money for inaugural festivities or were part of his presidential transition. Many are donors to Trump's campaigns, and some are prolific fundraisers for his reelection.


----------



## Johnny b

* Supreme Court says Manhattan prosecutor may see Trump's financial records, denies Congress access for now*
https://www.washingtonpost.com/poli...274352-c1e2-11ea-9fdd-b7ac6b051dc8_story.html

And just in front of an election.


----------



## Johnny b

Well.....no surprise here.

* Trump grants clemency to ally Roger Stone after railing against 'unfair' conviction, sentencing *
https://www.usatoday.com/story/news...-stone-lying-russia-investigation/4762762002/


----------



## Johnny b

Tucker Carlson and his head writer, Blake Neff, of Fox News, exposed for the hatred, racism and misogyny they spread.
Trump embraces it, his followers live it: at the heart of the matter, the manufacture of institutional racism. The culture of extremism. And Fox News.

A caution from the editor:


> Editor's note: This article quotes racist, homophobic and sexist language, much of which has not been censored.


* Tucker Carlson's top writer resigns after secretly posting racist and sexist remarks in online forum *
https://www.cnn.com/2020/07/10/media/tucker-carlson-writer-blake-neff/index.html

..........................

Tucker Carlson, the man the GOP thinks should be the next President after Trump.

https://www.politico.com/news/2020/07/02/tucker-carlson-2024-republicans-348334


> Tucker Carlson's audience is booming - and so is chatter that the popular Fox News host will parlay his TV perch into a run for president in 2024.


----------



## Johnny b

Trump and Carlson....what a pair.

This is an opinion piece, not news.
But the author nails it.

* People who claim to be the only 'real' Americans are the worst Americans *
https://www.businessinsider.com/rea...y-bases-tucker-carlson-tammy-duckworth-2020-7

highlights:


> *
> Beware the person who claims to know who's a "real" American and who's not.
> 
> Especially Trump and Tucker Carlson - who for some reason think demonstrating patriotism involves honoring traitorous losers and calling a Purple Heart recipient a "coward." *


( Let the whining begin lol )


----------



## Johnny b

If you think Trump couldn't do worse with lackeys as advisors you'd be WRONG (  ), he's now using a game show host with absolutely no medical or even scientific background for advice:

* Trump retweets Chuck Woolery rant saying CDC is lying about COVID-19 *
https://nypost.com/2020/07/13/trump-retweets-chuck-woolery-rant-saying-cdc-is-lying-about-covid-19/

I'm not saying a game show host couldn't run the US better than Trump....but I wouldn't vote for Chuck, either lol!


----------



## Wino

Like Alex Jones and others of his ilk, "Chucky Pull the Woolery Over Your Eyes" is a spokesperson for a gold seller - they all give gold a bad name and that includes Turnip. Grifter's all.


----------



## Johnny b

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news...lice-confederate-flag-free-speech/5439043002/



> President Donald Trump claimed Tuesday that "more white people" die at the hands of police......
> 
> "Why are African Americans still dying at the hands of law enforcement in this country?" Herridge asked.
> 
> "So are white people. So are white people," Trump replied. "What a terrible question to ask. So are white people. More white people, by the way. More white people."
> 
> During the interview, Trump also defended displays of the Confederate flag as "freedom of speech."
> 
> "All I say is freedom of speech. It's very simple. My attitude is, freedom of speech. Very strong views on the Confederate flag. With me, it's freedom of speech. Very simple. Like it, don't like it, it's freedom of speech," Trump told CBS.


I hope swastikas aren't next


----------



## Johnny b

I wonder if Moscow Mitch took a lesson from Jeff Sessions?
It doesn't pay to cross King Donald. 

And here he is, doing it.
Look out for the bus, Mitch 

* Mitch McConnell warns Kentucky about coronavirus surge as Trump downplays pandemic *
https://www.cnn.com/2020/07/14/politics/mitch-mcconnell-kentucky-covid-response/index.html


----------



## Johnny b

How incredibly stupid and the same goes for those that believe it:

* Trump says U.S. would have half the number of coronavirus cases if it did half the testing *
https://www.cnbc.com/2020/07/14/tru...navirus-cases-if-it-did-half-the-testing.html

Trump's been claiming that for weeks, but now there is more:



> "Think of this, if we didn't do testing, instead of testing over 40 million people, if we did half the testing we would have half the cases," Trump said at a press conference at the White House. "If we did another, you cut that in half, we would have, yet again, half of that. But the headlines are always testing."


The logic, no testing, no infections.


----------



## Johnny b

Interesting rant ( er, Op Ed  )

* If you aren't filled with rage at Trump, you aren't paying attention *
https://www.washingtonpost.com/opin...d-with-rage-trump-you-arent-paying-attention/

Well written.
But one point should have gone further:



> There are many reasons we have experienced this catastrophe (and it quickly became two catastrophes, an economic crisis added to the public health crisis), but one stands above all others: President Trump.


Certainly Trump is the focus if only because he is the leader of the US.
But those that put him in power, those that still support Trump, Trump's minions in Congress.....those all are responsible for Trump being in power and are also responsible for the damage Trump accomplishes as they keep supporting Trump's policies.

And that is a large portion of our society.


----------



## Wino

Now they have ordered the hospitals to bypass CDC and report directly to White House / HHS. The data is going to be withheld or whitewashed. This damned nation is going to hell in a hand basket all because of one ignorant imbecilic nut bag and his minions. Never in my wildest dreams, even during the volatile 60's and 70's, have I ever felt like we've truly lost it as a nation. Totally unbelievable and sad.


----------



## Johnny b

What with Covid-19 getting so much attention, the negative effects of Trump's trade war has been overlooked and now out of control on the agricultural front:

* 'Here's your check': Trump's massive payouts to farmers will be hard to pull back *
https://www.politico.com/news/2020/07/14/donald-trump-coronavirus-farmer-bailouts-359932

*In no uncertain terms, this is what a failure of socialism looks like!*



> Government payments to farmers have surged to historic levels under President Donald Trump as the Agriculture Department floods the industry with cash to stem the financial losses from Trump's tariff fights and the coronavirus pandemic.
> 
> But as agriculture grows more reliant on unprecedented taxpayer support, farm policy experts and watchdog groups warn the subsidies are growing too big and too fast, with no strings attached and little oversight from Congress - and that Washington could have a difficult time shutting off the spigot.


Imagine that....Trump....a sociopathic socialist LOL! 
'Just vote for me'
And it's free money for everyone.  ( if you don't die from Covid-19 first )


----------



## Johnny b

Wino said:


> Now they have ordered the hospitals to bypass CDC and report directly to White House / HHS. The data is going to be withheld or whitewashed. This damned nation is going to hell in a hand basket all because of one ignorant imbecilic nut bag and his minions. Never in my wildest dreams, even during the volatile 60's and 70's, have I ever felt like we've truly lost it as a nation. Totally unbelievable and sad.


Covid-19 is a terrible situation, but I suspect worse is coming.


----------



## Wino

Johnny b said:


> Covid-19 is a terrible situation, but I suspect worse is coming.


True that! As long as this nation is run by rich right wing white trash we are in trouble. Being in the twilight of life is my only saving grace as I won't have to live in the coming debacle for an extended time. I do pity those that will have to tolerate the coming apocalypse merely for electing a foolish psychopath.


----------



## Johnny b

Wino said:


> Now they have ordered the hospitals to bypass CDC and report directly to White House / HHS. The data is going to be withheld or whitewashed.....................


John's Hopkins relies on the CDC for US statistics.

https://coronavirus.jhu.edu/map-faq

While it's safe to say there will eventually be a down turn in daily cases and deaths, even the Johns Hopkins Covid dashboard becomes questionable in the runup to the election if the White House becomes the only source of data.

Trump lied to the nation since the start of the pandemic in China and it hasn't stopped since.
He has a reason to continue. His re-election.

It's truly amazing the number of people willing to die for this guy.
He did say in his 2016 campaign he could shoot a guy on 5th avenue and not lose any voters.





(psycho Don)

Well, here we are, a nation with the worst Covid-19 statistics of infections and deaths of any nation on Earth, because of Trump's leadership. And the loons still love him.

But now it's dying time.
Amazing, truly amazing.


----------



## Johnny b

Another negative article with far reaching implications and grief.

* The coronavirus pandemic could lead to Social Security cuts happening sooner than you think *
https://www.usatoday.com/story/mone...could-happen-sooner-than-you-think/112154662/

What happens when a society becomes overly dependent upon the good will of a government, and disregards planning for their future in times of extreme economic stress?



> Social Security benefits are a major source of income for millions of retirees, with around one in five married couples depending on their benefits for at least 90% of their income in retirement, according to the Social Security Administration (SSA).
> 
> ...... a report from the Bipartisan Policy Center estimates that because of COVID-19, the trust funds could be depleted as soon as 2028.
> 
> As part of the next coronavirus stimulus package, President Trump is proposing payroll tax cuts. While that may be good news for current workers, it could spell disaster for Social Security.


And all of a sudden, that estimate of 2028 could happen sooner.
Maybe a lot sooner.

Donald Trump and his Covid warriors salute you. Die well. ......:down:.....


----------



## Johnny b

Update on Chuck Woolery.

*Game show host retweeted by Trump deletes his account after announcing his son has coronavirus *
https://thehill.com/homenews/media/...ount-after-announcing-his-son-has-coronavirus



> "To further clarify and add perspective, Covid-19 is real and it is here. My son tested positive for the virus, and I feel for of those suffering and especially for those who have lost loved ones," Woolery tweeted before his account disappeared.


Amazing how insensitive Woolery was until his son contracted Covid-19.

And as far as Trump goes:


> "I didn't make a comment," Trump responded. "I reposted a tweet that a lot of people feel. But all I am doing is making a comment. I'm just putting somebody's voice out there. There are many voices. There are many people that think we shouldn't do this kind of testing, because all we do, it's a trap."


He denies making a comment and then re-enforces the comment.
Well....usually he lies and then denies it lol!


----------



## Johnny b

After the Goya CEO stated political love for Trump, here's the results ( LOL! )

Commercials for beans. Goya of course.


















*"If it's Goya, it has to be good" *

And of course:
https://www.washingtonpost.com/nation/2020/07/16/cuomo-trump-goya/



> "I'm actually drinking my Goya Malta, supporting some people who have some guts in the culture war," said Trump Jr., showing off the nonalcoholic malt beverage.


Ya know. That dude has a really creepy smile.



> "On your dime, in the middle of a pandemic, they're selling beans," said Cuomo, who recovered from covid-19 in the spring. "Are you kidding me? Seriously? Seriously?"
> 
> Cuomo ....... "The guy is sitting on the Resolute desk with a bunch of Goya products." He added, "Proof positive of why we need many Faucis, but we only have one. The idea of him messing with Fauci when he's selling magic beans is crazy."


Yep, that's psycho Don.


----------



## Johnny b

And now the not so funny aspect of Trump and his secret police force:

* 'Secret police force': Feds reportedly pull Portland protesters into unmarked vehicles, stirring outrage *
https://www.usatoday.com/story/news...portland-protesters-unmarked-vans/5457471002/


----------



## Johnny b

* 'A reenactment type-thing.' Weights at Trump's White House event on deregulation were fake *

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news...m-uses-fake-weights-demonstration/5458964002/










Cute message (  )
Until you realize Trump's trade war has been intrusive and now is a potential factor in the agriculture sector facing an economic catastrophe.


----------



## Johnny b

* Analysis: Trump says the pandemic crisis was 'unforeseen' -- but lots of people foresaw it *
https://www.cnn.com/2020/03/15/politics/fact-check-trump-coronavirus-nobody-predicted/index.html

........................

* Ex-Trump economist says White House was warned of potential pandemic disaster in September *
https://www.cnn.com/2020/07/17/business/pandemic-warning-tomas-philipson/index.html



> Former Trump administration economist Todas Philipson said on Friday that his team alerted the White House about the dangers of a looming pandemic outbreak about three months before Covid-19 is believed to have made its way into the United States.
> 
> On Friday, he told CNN's Poppy Harlow that he co-authored and published a CEA report titled "Mitigating the Impact of Pandemic Influenza through Vaccine Innovation" that warned a pandemic disease could kill as many as half a million Americans and cause up to $3.79 trillion in damage to the US economy.


Trump was aware of how the Covid-19 pandemic could play out, and he even lied about that.


----------



## Johnny b

* Trump administration pushing to block new money for testing, tracing and CDC in upcoming coronavirus relief bill *

https://www.washingtonpost.com/us-policy/2020/07/18/white-house-testing-budget-cdc-coronavirus/



> The Trump administration is trying to block billions of dollars for states to conduct testing and contact tracing in the upcoming coronavirus relief bill, people involved in the talks said Saturday.
> 
> President Trump has repeatedly questioned the value of conducting widespread coronavirus testing, arguing that if there were fewer tests conducted, the number of infections would be lower. Coronavirus infections and deaths are on the rise in many states.


Apparently it's a constitutional privilege to die for Psycho Don.


----------



## Johnny b

Same old crap from psycho Don:

*'I'll be right eventually': Donald Trump defends his handling of COVID-19 and the presidency*
https://www.usatoday.com/story/news...ump-defends-his-covid-19-response/5467596002/



> .......his claims that the coronavirus will simply "disappear.......
> "I'll be right eventually," Trump told Chris Wallace, the host of "Fox News Sunday," in the interview taped Friday. "You know, I said, 'It's going to disappear.' I'll say it again."
> 
> Claiming that "mail-in voting is going to rig the election," Trump repeated his mantra from 2016 that he can't be sure he will accept the results of the election: "I'm not going to just say yes. I'm not going to say no, and I didn't last time either."


And then there was this:



> Trump, who has declined to take responsibility for COVID-19 problems, said, "Look, I take responsibility, always, for everything because it's ultimately my job, too.


Even a person with only 3 brain cells should be able to see through that!


----------



## Johnny b

> Even a person with only 3 brain cells should be able to see through that!


Well, looks like I spoke too soon 

* 'It's propaganda': Anti-mask crowd rallies at Ohio capital, derides doctors, claims government overreach *
https://www.usatoday.com/story/news...crowd-rallies-statehouse-saturday/5468011002/



> "It's not connecting to the science. It's propaganda," said Cherrelyn Pierson of Marysville, Ohio, who said she works in a health-related field and understands virus transmission.
> 
> "I trust myself," Pierson said. "I am the science."


And if you do a search for Cherrelyn Pierson of Marysville, Ohio....you wind up with a Sheriff's media release for her arrest 11/16/2019 LOL!
http://www.co.union.oh.us/media/Sheriff/Daily Media/2019/November/November 16, 2019.pdf

And here's her arrest record 

https://ohio.arrests.org/Arrests/Cherrelyn_Pierson_43762015/









She is the science?
Health professional?
Obviously not in the field of dermatology.


----------



## Johnny b

* Trump won't agree to accept election results as his rage over absentee votes continues *

https://www.nydailynews.com/news/po...0200719-34l3yznshfacpe6jxaefuh4sqi-story.html


----------



## Johnny b

Those supposed to be protecting us, are becoming our enemy, an enemy of a free and democratic society.

*President Trump weighing expansion of federal officer deployments; Chicago may be next *
https://www.usatoday.com/story/news...icer-deployments-chicago-may-next/5473100002/



> After bashing political leaders in Portland and describing the city as "out of control," the president went on to suggest that more federal officers could be destined for Philadelphia, Detroit, Baltimore and Oakland, as well as Chicago.
> 
> "Well, I'm going to do something -- that I can tell you," Trump told reporters at the White House. "We're not going to let this happen in our country, all run by liberal Democrats."


*Nationalism:*


----------



## Johnny b

* Trump throws wrench into coronavirus bill negotiations with Senate Republicans *

https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/co...bill-negotiations-senate-republicans-n1234433



> President Donald Trump is throwing a big wrench into negotiations between the White House and Senate Republicans over the next coronavirus relief bill by demanding a payroll tax cut be included and funding for testing be reduced or cut completely.


This is making America great?


----------



## SeanLaurence

I am shocked...
That any republican can get arrested for a white collar crime in Trump's America.
Ohio House Speaker Arrested In Connection With $60 Million Bribery Scheme
https://www.npr.org/2020/07/21/8934...ed-in-connection-to-60-million-bribery-scheme


----------



## Johnny b

LOL.

Probably just a case of greed.
Someone probably figured they didn't get their share and tipped the FBI.


----------



## Wino

If convicted, Turnip will pardon another fellow grifter.


----------



## Johnny b

If Householder gets convicted, we get a new State Speaker of the House.
If he doesn't resign first.
Maybe even a 'new' House lol!

It looks like FirstEnergy needed to 'throw a lot of money around'.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FirstEnergy


----------



## Johnny b

Trump's future for America:






News article here:
https://www.usatoday.com/story/news...david-beaten-federal-agents-video/5477552002/


----------



## Johnny b

SeanLaurence said:


> ..................
> Ohio House Speaker Arrested In Connection With $60 Million Bribery Scheme
> https://www.npr.org/2020/07/21/8934...ed-in-connection-to-60-million-bribery-scheme


I suspect this story has a lot of 'upstream' impact.

No doubt the FBI are looking closer at Rick Perry and Scott Pruitt.

Although dated June 8, 2018
Articles like this have become a lot more interesting ....and no doubt, the contents of interest to authorities.

* FOIAs reveal FirstEnergy meeting with Rick Perry, 30+ corporate jet flights to D.C. since Trump's inauguration *
https://www.energyandpolicy.org/foias-firstenergy-rick-perry-trump/


----------



## Johnny b

* FirstEnergy handed out $1 million in campaign cash before nuclear bailout vote *
https://www.dispatch.com/news/20190...-in-campaign-cash-before-nuclear-bailout-vote

Money money, everywhere.................


----------



## Johnny b

Trump expands Federal jurisdiction over States rights.
This is what dictators do in acquiring absolute power.
In Germany, it grew from the Enabling Act of 1933
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Enabling_Act_of_1933

* Trump to send 'surge' of hundreds of federal agents to cities *
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-53507660

Listen carefully to the video.
It's short and to the point.
(sorry, I can't link directly to the video, you'll need to go to the BBC site to view it )

It's not about protecting Federal properties.
It's about the Federal Government taking over the responsibilities of State and local governments in the run-up to an election, the results of which Trump, by his own words, may or may not accept.

It's about authoritarian rule ( aka a dictatorship )


----------



## Wino

When the shooting starts, and it will, Jerk will have his excuse to screw this nation over. We'll have a domestic "Gulf of Tonkin" incident. I suspect it will be Chicago.


----------



## Johnny b

Wino said:


> When the shooting starts, and it will, Jerk will have his excuse to screw this nation over. We'll have a domestic "Gulf of Tonkin" incident. I suspect it will be Chicago.


I truly hope that doesn't happen......but I, also, suspect it will happen.


----------



## Johnny b

* Trump Defends His Cognitive Testing Results on Fox News. Again. *
https://www.nytimes.com/2020/07/22/us/politics/trump-cognitive-test-results.html

That, from a guy that suggested consuming Clorox as a cure for Covid-19.......


----------



## Wino

Hopefully I can stay out of a Texas reefer long enough to cast my mail in ballot against tyranny. Early voting starts Oct. 19, 2020. I expect I'll have my ballot in my mail box a week or two ahead of the 19th and return mail the next day and dropped off at PO so I'll know it at least made it that far.


----------



## Wino

Johnny b said:


> * Trump Defends His Cognitive Testing Results on Fox News. Again. *
> https://www.nytimes.com/2020/07/22/us/politics/trump-cognitive-test-results.html
> 
> That, from a guy that suggested consuming Clorox as a cure for Covid-19.......


Is sad this self proclaimed Mensan and Stable Genius has to try and convince people he's sane and aware. I've had several cognitive test over the years when admitted to hospital for TIA's and a recent one last month when admitted for gastrointestinal condition in ER. Basic enough - name, age, birth date, birth place, what day is it, city, state, who is president (the last I refuse to answer saying his name will NEVER pass my lips).  In any case, I'd be surprised DJTurd could recall all in spite of his mouthing's since he lies with every breath.


----------



## Johnny b

My cognitive tests went a bit further.
In addition, a drawing of a furnished living room and a kitchen was placed in front of me for about a minute..
From memory, not observation, an object in the drawing was picked and I was supposed to name objects starting immediately from either the right of it or the left of it. No big deal.

I already knew who I was and what animals looked like lol!


----------



## Johnny b

* Trump says Biden listening to Bernie's 'radicalized people,' drifting 'further left' *

https://fox40jackson.com/headlines/...ies-radicalized-people-drifting-further-left/

This stood out:


> The president said he wants to help cities like Chicago - provided the feds are "invited" - calling the violence that's overtaken such cities "a disgrace."
> 
> "We'll go into all of the cities, any of the cities. We're ready. We'll put in 50,000 - 60,000 people that really know what they're doing," Trump said. "And they're strong, they're tough. And we can solve these problems so fast. But as you know, we have to be invited in."


But like Fox News so many times, an element is left out, *an important element*:

https://www.thedailybeast.com/trump-brags-about-siccing-75k-tough-feds-on-cities-like-chicago


> Trump went on to add that "at some point, we have to do something much stronger than being invited in."


From several hundred to a small army. 
Invitations optional.
I wonder if the Pentagon knows of this?
I wonder how many are mercenaries?


----------



## ekim68

Poor little Rich guy can't use his Bots... 


Trump campaign angry that cell carriers blocked spammy texts to voters


----------



## Johnny b

Conspiracy theories....the staple of politics.

Of course this one is interesting. It's about Trump lol!

* 'What does Ghislaine Maxwell have on Trump,' asks new attack ad by Lincoln Project *
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/...ll-female-journalists-attack-ad-a9637796.html



> "I just wish her well, frankly," Mr Trump is heard saying in the briefing.
> 
> A woman narrating the advertisement then says: "Just what does Maxwell have on Donald Trump? Why does he demean other women but treat the head of an alleged sex slave ring with respect? Does Donald Trump want Maxwell to keep quiet? America needs to know."


Shocking


----------



## 2twenty2

> 'Unstable and easily manipulated:' U.S. president's upbringing shaped his leadership, says niece Mary Trump
> 
> Trump's ability to 'destroy alliances, rip-up treaties' has made him 'very dangerous', she says


https://www.cbc.ca/radio/thecurrent...is-leadership-says-niece-mary-trump-1.5662048


----------



## Johnny b

* Fed Will All But Guarantee Negative Real Yields *

https://finance.yahoo.com/news/fed-guarantee-negative-real-yields-100046702.html



> (Bloomberg Opinion) -- Federal Reserve Chair Jerome Powell has likely heard it all about negative U.S. real yields: How they're devastating for pensions and life insurers, causing equity valuations to outpace the economic recovery, encouraging a stampede into gold and out of the dollar and giving the green light for American companies to gorge on cheap debt once again.
> 
> The message he and his colleagues are likely to convey at their meeting this week: That's all fine with us.


----------



## Johnny b

With all the reports showing Russian interference in our elections:

* Barr calls Russia scandal 'bogus,' says he acts independently of Trump in blistering opening statement *
https://www.cnn.com/2020/07/27/politics/barr-hearing-preview-opening-statement/index.html

Between McConnell and Bar, who is Putin's second best American friend?


----------



## Johnny b

* Past D.C. Bar Association chiefs call for probe of William Barr *
https://www.politico.com/news/2020/07/22/bill-barr-bar-association-probe-377272



> Four former presidents of the D.C. Bar Association have signed a letter calling on the group to investigate whether Attorney General William Barr has violated its rules. The District of Columbia Bar authorizes lawyers to practice in the city and has the power to punish them for breaking its rules and to revoke their law licenses.
> 
> The complaint argues that Barr has broken Washington's ethics rules by being dishonest and violating his oath to uphold the Constitution, along with other charges


But:



> Bar associations can take years to review disciplinary complaints, and their processes are kept confidential.


Reality: Don't hold your breath for a new AG


----------



## Johnny b

* Trump is moving forward with his plan to regulate social media *
https://www.cnn.com/2020/07/27/tech/fcc-social-media-petition/index.html

Well.....social media is pretty much a waste land.
But this is about stopping negative comments about a corrupt President.

So long as it doesn't interfere with Putin's plans for the future of the US, I suspect Putin has given the OK to Trump to proceed.


----------



## 2twenty2

https://thehill.com/homenews/admini...-section-on-twitter-really-ridiculous-illegal

Trump blasts 'trending' section on Twitter: 'Really ridiculous, illegal, and, of course, very unfair!'


----------



## Johnny b

Unfair? LOL!

* Twitter removes President Donald Trump's post touting a false 'cure' for COVID-19 *
https://www.usatoday.com/story/news...-post-touting-false-cure-covid-19/5525358002/


----------



## Johnny b

Typical, typical, typical........
Donald Trump, the President and Stella Immanuel, the apparent 'witch doctor' LOL

The 'know nothing' President:



> And Trump defended the video which was later removed and Stella Immanuel, the doctor it featured: "There was a woman who was spectacular in her statements about it and she's had tremendous success with it. And they took her voice off," he said.
> 
> "I thought her voice was an important voice, but I know nothing about her," Trump said......................


----------



## Johnny b

Caution, a bad word is used at this link.
It's not sexist, but it does involve alien DNA.

IMO, the subject matter is relevant....LOL!

https://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl=https://preview.redd.it/r3d2fmde1vd51.jpg?width=960&crop=smart&auto=webp&s=61683cbea8bf77cfcf2104d2a3fc4ae8d7937e1e&imgrefurl=https://www.reddit.com/r/democrats/comments/i08m74/broadcast_to_dr_stella_immanuel/&tbnid=7riL8UpKBggoCM&vet=12ahUKEwjWjsWd-vTqAhUDMN8KHbktB7kQMyhXegUIARCJAQ..i&docid=mOgELmdrt2lNxM&w=960&h=546&q=Stella Immanuel&client=firefox-b-1-d&ved=2ahUKEwjWjsWd-vTqAhUDMN8KHbktB7kQMyhXegUIARCJAQ

(sorry for the massive link)

Was this where the GOP made first contact?


----------



## Johnny b

Is the GOP, which is now Trumpism, putting workers lives in danger just to make profits or is it just Moscow Mitch?

*Column: In GOP plan, you can't sue your employers for giving you COVID - but they can sue you  *
https://www.latimes.com/business/story/2020-07-29/covid-employer-liability



> The GOP proposal would erect almost insurmountable obstacles to lawsuits by workers who become infected with the coronavirus at their workplaces.
> 
> It would absolve employers of responsibility for taking any but the most minimal steps to make their workplaces safe. It would preempt tough state workplace safety laws (not that there are very many of them).
> trying to kill you
> And while shutting the courthouse door to workers, it would allow _employers_ to sue workers for demanding safer conditions.


Looks like the entire GOP. Maybe they ought to change their name.


----------



## Johnny b

Well..................

Totalitarian Don, the future 'President For Life':

* Trump floats idea of election 'delay' amid unsubstantiated claims of voter fraud *
https://finance.yahoo.com/news/trump-floats-idea-election-delay-131104480.html

This is probably what scares Trump the most:



> Five states already rely exclusively on postal votes, and they say they have necessary safeguards in place to ensure that a hostile foreign actor does not disrupt the vote.


I expect the USP system to be trashed by the GOP between now and November.


----------



## Johnny b

*Appeals court will rehear Michael Flynn case, a rare move after 3-year legal, political saga *
https://www.usatoday.com/story/news...lly-michael-flynns-case-rare-move/5358913002/



> Rehearing a case that had already been ruled on is very rare, a request granted only in proceedings that involve "a question of exceptional importance" and when the court feels the need to "maintain uniformity" in its decisions.


----------



## Johnny b

Since Trump is against the concept of Mail in Ballots and wants the election postponed ( which he later denied and one Trump minion called a joke ) here's an FYI on mail in voting:

*All-Mail Elections (aka Vote-By-Mail) *
https://www.ncsl.org/research/elections-and-campaigns/all-mail-elections.aspx

I suspect this is worrying for Trump:



> Turnout-Some reports indicate that because of convenience, voter turnout increases.


----------



## Johnny b

After Trump's failed Tulsa rally, this is no surprise.

* Trump threatens to ban TikTok from operating in the U.S. *
https://www.usatoday.com/story/news...he-plans-ban-tiktok-operating-u-s/5556557002/



> The announcement comes weeks after Trump critics used TikTok to inflate expectations for turnout expected at the president's rally in Tulsa, Oklahoma, a major embarrassment for the president's campaign.


The real surprise is that he didn't do it sooner.
Like the next day ......LOL!

edit:


> In addition, The New York Times reported that Microsoft is in talks to acquire TikTok.


----------



## Johnny b

*Trump praises Jim Jordan and Anthony Fauci after they clashed during coronavirus hearing *
https://www.usatoday.com/story/news...anthony-fauci-after-hearing-clash/5556976002/

If you read it, it's the typical confrontation that Trump seems to love.

But who is Jim Jordan, other than a Tea Party, far right wing extremist?
Perhaps a man with no moral/ethical beliefs.

Linkage to that effect:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jim_J...n)#Ohio_State_University_sexual_abuse_scandal

https://www.cnn.com/2020/03/06/politics/jordan-osu-wrestlers-strauss-invs/index.html

https://www.cnn.com/2020/02/14/poli...dan-ohio-state-abuse-scandal-cnntv/index.html

https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/referee-says-he-told-rep-jim-jordan-ohio-state-doctor-n1078476

https://www.washingtonpost.com/poli...5e7314-4ded-11ea-bf44-f5043eb3918a_story.html

https://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/2018/7/7/17542878/jim-jordan-richard-strauss-ohio


> More than 100 former Ohio State students say they were sexually assaulted by a former university athletic doctor. Jim Jordan maintains he knew nothing.


* Ohio State, 162 survivors finalize $40.9 million settlement in Strauss case *
https://news.osu.edu/ohio-state-162-survivors-finalize-409-million-settlement-in-strauss-case/

_______________________

Who is Anthony Fauci?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anthony_Fauci

Feb 14, 2017
Dr Fauci presents a lecture on the dangers of potential/yet unknown infectious diseases with his "Pandemic Preparedness in the Next Administration" speech.
Complete version:





Short edited version:





________________________

Dr Fauci provided expert advice that Trump ignored. And still mostly ignores.

Trump praises Jim Jordan and seeks his advice?

And now, the Covid-19 infections and deaths continue at an alarming rate while the President continues to revel in denial.


----------



## Wino

"Gym" Jordan is proper for this twit.


----------



## Johnny b

* GOP: Trump renomination vote to be held in private *
https://www.usatoday.com/story/news...ote-renominate-trump-held-private/5565766002/



> The vote to renominate President Donald Trump is set to be conducted in private later this month, without members of the press present, a spokeswoman for the Republican National Convention, citing the coronavirus.


Why bother even having a GOP convention?
Most people seem to know who owns the GOP.



> The subset of delegates in Charlotte will be casting proxy votes on behalf of the more than 2,500 official delegates to the convention. Alternate delegates and guests have already been prohibited.


<yawn>


----------



## ekim68

Anatomy of a Character Assassination: Trump Goes All-In Against Dr. Fauci



> Donald Trump has targeted a new pandemic villain: Dr. Anthony Fauci. Among his transgressions, the nation's leading infectious disease physician relied on facts and science to contradict Trump's talking points and criticize his policies. Even worse, he has outperformed Trump in public opinion polls.
> 
> So rather than declare war on a coronavirus outbreak that he has mismanaged at every turn, Trump has attacked Dr. Fauci and the truth.


----------



## Johnny b

* Trump says he may suspend payroll tax himself *
https://finance.yahoo.com/news/trump-says-may-suspend-payroll-114740480.html

In the midst of a global pandemic where a large segment of the US is about to become dependent up on Social Security and it's services to survive, Trump intends to cut the funding for Social Security support.

MAGA was never about our society.
It was about making the 'leaders' of our society more powerful...... that would be Trump and his minions.

And it certainly looks like Trump is attempting to inhibit the upcoming election.


----------



## Wino

The payroll taxes FICA elimination will help no one and damage Medicare & SS, which is what republicans have been trying to do since their inceptions, as programs to help the citizenry. They have no interest in being constructive - just destructive and it has snowballed under the guidance of our idiot POTUS.


----------



## Johnny b

* Deutsche Bank gave Donald Trump financial records to New York prosecutors - report *
https://www.theguardian.com/busines...-bank-donald-trump-financial-records-new-york



> "These reports describe transactions involving individual and corporate actors based in New York county, but whose conduct at times extended beyond New York's borders. This possible criminal activity occurred within the applicable statutes of limitations, particularly if the transactions involved a continuing pattern of conduct."


Interesting


----------



## Johnny b

Time for some political humor 
(be aware some language is a little on the raw side , but not obscene. )

A closer look with Seth Meyers


----------



## Johnny b

A new low in politics.

Trump, a man with no honor, no morality and no ethics, a man responsible for a large part of the current death and destruction of the society I live in....claims his Democratic opponent, a devout Catholic, is "against God" and even religion itself.

From the man of a thousand lies.

From the man that has cheated on his wives with concubines and porn stars,

the misogynist:

* Donald Trump claims Joe Biden is 'against God;' Biden calls attack 'shameful' *
https://www.usatoday.com/story/news...od-biden-team-calls-trump-divider/3311594001/



> "No religion, no anything," Trump told supporters at a brief airport rally in Cleveland as he visited Ohio for an economic speech. "Hurt the Bible, hurt God. He's against God, he's against guns, he's against energy, our kind of energy."


The fake Christian and his followers:


----------



## Johnny b

Oh my goodness!

What is this guy thinking about?










Could it be?

* Judge nixes Trump bid to delay suit from woman alleging rape *
https://abcnews.go.com/US/wireStory/judge-nixes-trump-bid-delay-suit-woman-alleging-72223186



> A New York judge knocked down President Donald Trump's bid to delay a lawsuit from a woman who accused him of rape, ruling in a decision released Thursday that the presidency doesn't shield him from the case.
> 
> The decision allows Carroll - who's seeking Trump's DNA as potential evidence - to keep pursuing her suit. She says he slurred her in denying her claim that he raped her in the 1990s.
> 
> "We are now eager to move forward with discovery so that we can prove that Donald Trump defamed E. Jean Carroll when he lied about her in connection with her brave decision to tell the truth about the fact that Donald Trump had sexually assaulted her," said her lawyer, Roberta Kaplan.


Probably not


----------



## Johnny b

Donald Trump smiles.
Vladimir Putin is satisfied.

*USPS in 'dire' financial position, says Postmaster General *
https://finance.yahoo.com/news/u-postal-chief-warns-dire-141759097.html


----------



## Johnny b

Trump research.

https://www.politico.com/news/2020/08/07/american-bridge-trump-oppo-book-392536



> "After spending years investigating Donald Trump, his grifter family, and cabinet of cronies, American Bridge 21st Century has compiled the most extensive and exhaustive public file on the president," said Pat Dennis, Research Director for the Trump War Room at American Bridge 21st Century. The website in particular focuses on Trump's response to Covid-19, corruption, and then various other issue areas


Findings here:

https://trumpresearchbook.com/



> Welcome to American Bridge 21st Century's Donald Trump opposition research hub. This website exists to help allies find the research needed to defeat Donald Trump in 2020. It's organized into three main categories, each divided into multiple reports designed to help you tell the full story about Trump's failed presidency. These categories are:


----------



## Johnny b

Well La de da......
Yesterday I posted this in another thread:
https://forums.techguy.org/threads/the-gospel-everybody-is-welcome.1239659/post-9729581
about Jerry Falwell Jr.

And now I've found a rather bizarre connection to Donal Trump and why Falwell supports him.

This find:
* New details revealed in the bizarre story of Jerry Falwell Jr, Michael Cohen, a pool boy and 'compromising photographs*
https://www.alternet.org/2019/06/ne...ohen-a-pool-boy-and-compromising-photographs/

led to this NYTimes article:
https://www.nytimes.com/2019/06/18/us/trump-falwell-endorsement-michael-cohen.html









Such strangeness 

It's a very long read.


----------



## 2twenty2

Trump's demand for cut of TikTok deal is almost 'Mafia-like,' says tech reporter

https://www.cbc.ca/radio/asithappen...lmost-mafia-like-says-tech-reporter-1.5673920


----------



## ekim68

Two decades of pandemic war games failed to account for Donald Trump



> The scenarios foresaw leaky travel bans, a scramble for vaccines and disputes between state and federal leaders, but none could anticipate the current levels of dysfunction in the United States.


----------



## Johnny b

* Trump walks out of news conference after reporter asks him about Veterans Choice lie he's told more than 150 times  *
https://www.cnn.com/2020/08/08/politics/trump-veterans-choice-paula-reid/index.html

I suspect there will be many challenges like this in coming months.
Potentially, many thousands.


----------



## Wino

ekim68 said:


> Two decades of pandemic war games failed to account for Donald Trump


Orange ogre would screw up a one car funeral.


----------



## Wino

Johnny b said:


> * Trump walks out of news conference after reporter asks him about Veterans Choice lie he's told more than 150 times  *
> https://www.cnn.com/2020/08/08/politics/trump-veterans-choice-paula-reid/index.html
> 
> I suspect there will be many challenges like this in coming months.
> Potentially, many thousands.


It's way past time for reporters and other talking heads allowing him a pass on all his lies. He should be fact checked in real time on a daily basis. If he walks out, discussions should continue on why he is incorrect and lying. The Petulant Pustule POTUS has usurped GWB as worst ever.


----------



## Johnny b

* The White House reportedly asked South Dakota's governor how to add another president to Mount Rushmore, and she later gave Trump a 4-foot replica with his face on it *

https://www.businessinsider.com/how-gov-noem-trumps-desire-carved-into-mt-rushmore-2020-8



> Trump's interest in Mount Rushmore, and his desire to be etched in among the four existing presidents, is no surprise to Noem, who says he brought it up during their first meeting in the oval office.


* Mount Trumpmore? It's the president's 'dream,' Rep. Kristi Noem says *
https://www.argusleader.com/story/n...ald-trump-mount-rushmore-trumpmore/544597002/


----------



## Wino

Mt. Rushmore ?? He's going to have to settle for a pinata on Cinco de Mayo at best.


----------



## ekim68

The Art of the Deal.. 


The Biggest Trump Financial Mystery? Where He Came Up With the Cash for His Scottish Resorts.



> Donald Trump dumped $400 million into his clubs in Aberdeen and Turnberry. Now, lawmakers in Edinburgh want to investigate him for money laundering.


----------



## Johnny b

Interesting read. :up:


----------



## Couriant

Wino said:


> Mt. Rushmore ?? He's going to have to settle for a pinata on Cinco de Mayo at best.


With a taco bowl from Trump Tower...


----------



## 2twenty2

Trump denies WH asked about adding him to Mount Rushmore, then calls it a 'good idea'

https://www.msn.com/en-ca/news/othe...n-calls-it-a-good-idea/ar-BB17N7Kd?li=AAggFp4


----------



## Johnny b

ID ten T!

Trump claims The pandemic of 1917 (sic) ended WW2


----------



## Wino

Dang!! I didn't know that !!


----------



## Johnny b

Apparently it's been a little known fact............................lol!


----------



## Couriant

Well I'm impressed... Trump was off by 1... very uncharacteristic of him... lol


----------



## Wino

I expect next he will say the atomic bomb ended the civil war. SIGH


----------



## Johnny b

* Trump calls QAnon conspiracy theory supporter Marjorie Taylor Greene a GOP 'star' after Georgia win *
https://www.usatoday.com/story/news...rjorie-taylor-greene-wins-primary/3351661001/

I should be shocked.........
But.......
So much has happened under Trump....it's not a surprise.

Insanity rules......and a large segment of the US approves.


----------



## Johnny b

* 'Open and shut': Kamala Harris argues case is clear against Trump in introduction as Biden's running mate *
https://www.usatoday.com/story/news...irst-appearance-democratic-ticket/3350901001/



> "The case against Donald Trump and Mike Pence is open and shut," Harris said. "Just look where they've gotten us."





> Harris argued that the Trump administration's mismanagement of the coronavirus pandemic left an American dying every 80 seconds, 16 million people out of work and millions of children unable to return to school - and no confusion about how to vote Nov. 3.


And of course, there are the issues of Russian support of Trump, their interference in our electoral process and the refusal of a GOP led Senate to bring about legislation that addresses that interference.

Simply, Trumpism is autocracy oriented.
And it's mind boggling to believe that one autocrat ( Putin ) has the best interests for our society in mind by setting us up with a puppet he controls.


----------



## Johnny b

Late breaking News!!!!!!!
Trump orders ruling against bad hair days.
(with all the dying and economic problems facing our society, this is what we're subjected to? )

* US proposes change to shower rules after Trump's hair-washing moan *
https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2020/aug/12/us-shower-pressure-trump-hair-water



> President believes shower water does not flow fast enough
> 'My hair … I don't know about you, but it has to be perfect'
> 
> The US president's hair-washing complaints on Wednesday prompted the government to propose an easing of shower pressure standards.
> 
> The Trump administration proposed rule changes that would allow shower heads to boost water pressure, after Donald Trump repeatedly complained that bathroom fixtures do not work to his liking.
> 
> The Department of Energy plan followed comments from Trump last month at a White House event on rolling back regulations. He said he believed water does not come out fast enough from fixtures.












(Wow....that was inspiring  )


----------



## Wino

😭😱😪🤬His priorities kinda suck. Whiner in chief thumb sucking pervert that he be.


----------



## ekim68

It's possible that Trump actually isn't the hardest-working president in history



> That Trump spends a lot of time at properties owned by his personal business is, like his failure to release his tax returns, a remarkable occurrence that has faded into background noise. So it's worth putting a fine point on it when appropriate, as it is here.


----------



## Johnny b

Mark Meadows appears to have been caught in a bald face lie about the US Post office and removal of sorting machines.

* The White House says USPS isn't removing mail-sorting machines. Postal workers say it is. *
https://www.vox.com/2020-presidenti...-machines-trump-meadows-2020-election-ballots


----------



## Couriant

ekim68 said:


> It's possible that Trump actually isn't the hardest-working president in history


doesn't that go against the blind trust? (not sure there is one, just I heard it somewhere were Don Jr was being an idiot about it)


----------



## Johnny b

Caution: Opinion piece.

Sure. it's the typical anti-Trump message......but look at the logic of the title, then read the Op Ed.

* Trump's argument: Look how awful things are - now reelect me *
https://www.washingtonpost.com/opin...nt-look-how-awful-things-are-now-re-elect-me/

Why would anyone want more of the same?


----------



## Johnny b

Conveniently Forgetful Donald:



















* https://occupydemocrats.com/2020/08...taff-miles-taylor-check-out-these-pictures-2/ *



> Donald Trump was not happy yesterday when his former Department of Homeland Security Chief of Staff Miles Taylor endorsed Joe Biden and wrote a scathing op-ed in _The Washington Post _that was a damning indictment of Trump and his record during his presidency to date.
> 
> The president was so unhappy that he expended the energy to launch a Twitter attack belittling Taylor as a "DISGRUNTLED EMPLOYEE" of so limited importance that he was beneath his level of perception.


LOL!


----------



## Johnny b

I'll bet Donald would like to forget this ( lol )

* Senate committee made criminal referral of Trump Jr., Bannon, Kushner, two others to federal prosecutors *
https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/ju...l-trump-jr-bannon-kushner-two-others-n1237155



> The Republican and Democratic leaders of the Senate Intelligence Committee made criminal referrals of Donald Trump Jr., Jared Kushner, Steve Bannon, Erik Prince and Sam Clovis to federal prosecutors in 2019, passing along their suspicions that the men may have misled the committee during their testimony, an official familiar with the matter told NBC News.


All the President's men......shocking.

* Mueller report shows Trump campaign left itself wide open to Russians, officials say *
https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/na...mpaign-left-itself-wide-open-russians-n997716

Well, yeah. That was suspected long before the Mueller Report came out, though.


----------



## Johnny b

Just shocking I tell you!! (  )

* First Thing: senate trumps Mueller with its Russian collusion report *
https://www.theguardian.com/us-news...enate-trumps-mueller-russian-collusion-report



> Among the explosive details is the bald assertion that a Russian national who worked with the president's campaign was in fact a career spy. The senate panel identifies Konstantin Kilimnik, a longtime associate of the then-Trump campaign manager, Paul Manafort, as an officer of the GRU, and cites evidence - some of it redacted - linking him to the hacking of Democratic party emails.


Some interesting Wikipedia history on Kilimnik:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Konstantin_Kilimnik

* US Senate report goes beyond Mueller to lay bare Trump campaign's Russia links  *
https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2020/aug/18/donald-trump-us-senate-report-russia-campaign


> Kilimnik worked for over a decade in Ukraine with Paul Manafort,, Trump's campaign manager. In 2016 Manafort met with Kilimnik, discussed how Trump might beat Hillary Clinton, and gave the Russian spy internal polling data.


Donald: Paul who? I barely knew the guy. (  )

https://www.washingtonpost.com/poli...onships-with-politically-inconvenient-people/


> "I didn't know Manafort well," Trump said in an interview with Fox News. "He wasn't with the campaign long."


LOL!


----------



## Wino

I would contact your county elections board and request a mail in ballot rather than an absentee ballot. One thing I would never do is complete any form with any association with Trump, whether a picture or of any nature that crook is involved. You'd probably get your ballot about a week after election.


----------



## Couriant

Not directly related to Trump... but I would like to offer my thoughts and prayers to the NRA.... lol


----------



## Johnny b

* U.S. judge dismisses Trump's lawsuit to block subpoena for tax records *

https://finance.yahoo.com/news/u-judge-dismisses-trumps-lawsuit-135833720.html



> U.S. District Judge Victor Marrero said granting the relief Trump sought would be an "undue expansion" of presidential immunity.


:up:


----------



## Johnny b

Love it 

* Former Trump adviser Bannon charged with fraud by federal prosecutors *
https://finance.yahoo.com/news/former-trump-adviser-bannon-charged-133827823.html



> Steve Bannon, a former adviser to U.S. President Donald Trump, has been charged with conspiracy to commit wire fraud in relation to a fundraising campaign to support the building of the U.S.-Mexico border wall, the Justice Department said on Thursday.


* Steve Bannon, three others charged with fraud in border wall fundraising campaign *
https://www.cnn.com/2020/08/20/politics/bannon-build-the-wall-indictment/index.html

(details here^^^^ )

:up:....:up:....:up:....:up:....:up:....:up:

Indictment here:

https://www.cnn.com/2020/08/20/politics/bannon-indictment/index.html

:up:....:up:....:up:....:up:....:up:....:up:


----------



## Johnny b

I seldom do op ed pieces, but the timing on this one is certainly precious LOL!

by Kristin Tate

*Why Steve Bannon would fuel Donald Trump toward victory *
https://thehill.com/opinion/campaign/508041-why-steve-bannon-would-fuel-donald-trump-toward-victory

I am surprised the article hasn't been pulled.

LOL!


----------



## Wino

Gets better and better by the day.


----------



## ekim68

On lighter news.. 


Trump asks Supreme Court to let him block critics on Twitter



> The Trump administration on Thursday asked the Supreme Court to reverse a lower court ruling that found President Trump violated the First Amendment by blocking his critics on Twitter.


----------



## Wino

I'm guessing Mary Trump won't be attending her Uncle Roberts funeral (or whatever it is) at the White House today.


----------



## Couriant

ekim68 said:


> On lighter news..
> 
> Trump asks Supreme Court to let him block critics on Twitter


I am not too sure... but I am sure there is a block button in twitter 

EDIT: maybe i should have read the article first  That's what they were talking about ... too early and no coffee yet lol


----------



## Johnny b

* 'It was great': In leaked audio, Trump hailed low Black turnout in 2016 *
https://www.politico.com/news/2020/08/21/trump-black-voters-turnout-2016-398520



> "Many Blacks didn't go out to vote for Hillary 'cause they liked me. That was almost as good as getting the vote, you know, and it was great," the president-elect said, according to an audio recording of the meeting shared with POLITICO.
> 
> Three-and-a-half years later, those comments take on new weight, as Democrats and Republicans battle over restrictions on voting amid an historic pandemic.


It's rather obvious that the current Trump mentality supports restricting voters.


----------



## Wino

Trump and mentality in the same sentence is an oxymoron.

Restricting voting in red / blue states in left lean areas - cater to WASPS, wrong ethnic group, cut quantity of voting polls, make voters jump thru hoops to exercise their voting right, cut voting hours, gerrymandering, damage USPS, cast doubt on legitimacy of absentee/mail in voting - and never say a truth. I find it unconscionable that Biden isn't leading the obese scumbag by 20+ points.


----------



## Johnny b

Wino said:


> ..................
> 
> ........... I find it unconscionable that Biden isn't leading the obese scumbag by 20+ points.


Indeed.
With all that is so incredibly morally and ethically wrong with the character of Trump, of his inhumanity, of his incessant lying, of this ignorance and stupidity, why is there any support?
Short answer, he's a 'reflection' of a large segment of the US.

That is where the danger of Trump, to and of our society, initiated and continues to grow.
Trump learned early in life on how to appeal to the worst of human beings and profit from it.

And he's not alone.


----------



## Johnny b

Some people claim DJ Trump is not a racist.
Give this a read if you are curious.

*Racial views of Donald Trump *
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Racial_views_of_Donald_Trump#White_supremacist_David_Duke


----------



## Johnny b

Interesting article at Washington Post:

* In secretly recorded audio, President Trump's sister says he has 'no principles' and 'you can't trust him' *
https://www.washingtonpost.com/poli...d457f4-e334-11ea-ade1-28daf1a5e919_story.html

That sister would be the Federal Judge, Maryanne Trump Barry.


> Barry, 83, was aghast at how her 74-year-old brother operated as president. "His goddamned tweet and lying, oh my God," she said. "I'm talking too freely, but you know. The change of stories. The lack of preparation. The lying. Holy (edit: bleep )."
> 
> At one point Barry said to her niece, "It's the phoniness of it all. It's the phoniness and this cruelty. Donald is cruel."
> 
> "He went to Fordham for one year [actually two years] and then he got into University of Pennsylvania because he had somebody take the exams."


There is more.
The whole article is worth reading,

edit: Under New York law, it is legal to tape a conversation with the consent of one party, which in this case was Mary Trump.


----------



## ekim68

Trump Comes Up Empty When Pressed for Evidence of Election Fraud in Court



> The Trump campaign's 524-page response to a discovery demand turned up precisely zero instances of mail-in vote fraud.


----------



## ekim68

Trump used the RNC to gaslight America on Covid-19



> Trump argued his response to the coronavirus pandemic was great. Experts, and the data, disagree.


----------



## Wino

Nothing spouted by this liar-in-chief has any basis in fact.


----------



## Johnny b

...


----------



## Johnny b

John Oliver. Last Week Tonight.

If you are sensitive to bad and vulgar language, this video should be avoided.
But Oliver presents a reality. The gritty, darkness of the reality we currently live in and minorities suffer from.
It's not to be enjoyed or entertained or critiqued for political content.

It's a reality to address and correct.


----------



## Wino

Unfortunately, Oliver's truths will never pass the hearing of right wing mullets or magats. He is preaching to the choir, no matter the truthiness of his comments.


----------



## Johnny b

Covid-19 infections and deaths will magically disappear?
Anyone ( other than Trumpies ) really believe that lie?
Or have believed that lie after the stats ramped up this summer?
Is a second wave coming?
Importantly, given the negative responses to infection prevention, will the first wave end or simply carry on into what would have been called the second wave?
As re-infection has been documented, what percentage of the population will continually be infected as a promised but as yet untested (phase 3 trials ) vaccine ( of a proposed acceptable 50% efficacy ) lies in wait only days away from an election.

Ever get the feeling the Feds are doing as little as possible but acting like they have provided a solution and all is well? (Trumpies need not reply, your answer is a given )

The Swedish 'solution' was a dramatic failure.
Why copy failure?

To destroy the functionality of a society leaves a power vacuum to fill.
Historically, that seems to be with authoritative ( dictatorial ) rule.

History repeats itself.
Not word for word.
But actions and results are often similar.

Trump has been pushing MAGA into the realm of radical nationalism which is fascism.
Our society is being fractured.
Conflict is rampant among us.

Covid-19 is but one element of the problems our society faces.
But it's a major player affecting other issues.
From national security to our economy.

So, what is this?

* Trump advisor reportedly wants to let COVID-19 spread, repeat Sweden's mistakes *
https://arstechnica.com/science/202...hing-herd-immunity-idea-lambasted-by-experts/


> A new advisor to President Donald Trump is reportedly advocating that the pandemic coronavirus spread largely unrestrained so that the United States can reach "herd immunity"-an idea that infectious disease experts call "absolutely absurd," "simply wrong," and a strategy that actually amounts to the absence of a strategy, which could leave hundreds of thousands of more Americans dead.


*New Trump pandemic adviser pushes controversial 'herd immunity' strategy, worrying public health officials *

https://www.washingtonpost.com/poli...5e68fe-e93b-11ea-970a-64c73a1c2392_story.html


> The administration has already begun to implement some policies along these lines, according to current and former officials as well as experts, particularly with regard to testing.
> The approach's chief proponent is Scott Atlas, a neuroradiologist and fellow at Stanford's conservative Hoover Institution, who joined the White House in August as a pandemic adviser.


In case you haven't recognized it, an element of the above is the usage of children and young people to act as additional carriers. That would be from Trump's insistence to reopen public schools with in-person teaching.
Which is what we are currently experiencing.
Compounding the situation has been the convincing of a segment of the population that the issue is political and Covid-19 is merely an inconvenience like the common cold.

So what role does Atlas play in History?
A Trumptonian version of Dr Death ( Mengele ) ?


----------



## Wino

Solution is simple - 86/45 Nov. 3, 2020 with prejudice. Put adults in control and end this horrid incompetence.


----------



## Johnny b

Wino said:


> Solution is simple - 86/45 Nov. 3, 2020 with prejudice. Put adults in control and end this horrid incompetence.


I wish.

Sadly, I don't think logic, let alone common sense, will have enough impact.
I truly hope I'm wrong.
With Trump now rationalizing and supporting vigilantism, with the rise of militias that support the destruction of social order, with the unknown future of a Covid-19 prone society.....I don't see much future for the freedoms the US Constitution promised the citizen.

Fascism and autocracies have become too appealing to too many individuals.
Evangelicals worship Trump as an emissary of God.
Lies are presented as facts and truths.

It's '1984'

Soviets became oligarchs.
Trump became a Republican.

And they 'love' each other


----------



## Johnny b

Trump equates police killing unarmed citizens to a bad game of golf:

* Trump tells Ingraham some officers 'choke' during shootings, saying 'They miss a 3-foot putt' *
https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/politics/2020/09/01/trump-missed-putt-analogy-keosha/3454010001/



> "They can do 10,000 great acts, which is what they do, and one bad apple - or a choker, you know, a choker, they choke - shooting the guy in the back many times," Trump told host Laura Ingraham.
> 
> "I mean, couldn't you have done something different? Couldn't you have wrestled him?" Trump asked, wondering how the tragedy could have been avoided. "You know, I mean, in the meantime he might have been going for a weapon and, you know, there's a whole big thing there."
> 
> "But they choke, just like in a golf tournament, they miss a 3-foot putt," Trump said as Ingraham, one his staunchest supporters in the news media, cut him off.
> 
> *"You're not comparing it to golf, because that's what the media would say," *Ingraham said.
> (edit: bolding mine)


It's obvious that is exactly what Trump said and meant.
To Trump, our lives are but a game.

And the muddled mind continues:


> "No, I'm saying people choke. People choke. And people are bad people. You have both," he said. "You have some bad people and you have - they choke. You could be a police officer for 15 years and, all of a sudden, you're confronted. You've got a quarter of a second to make a decision. If you don't make the decision and you're wrong, you're dead."


Amazing, rationalizing 7 shots to the back of a citizen on a made up 'If' scenario based on a golfing term rather than facts.

Extend Trump's logic: 'I have a right to kill you because if I don't, you might do something to me.'
Do you think one of his inspired vigilantes or members of 'Trumps Army' would be more or less considerate?

Some things never change.
Reminds me of a song, Land of Confusion.
(so long ago)



> I must have dreamed a thousand dreams
> Been haunted by a million screams
> But I can hear the marching feet
> They're moving into the street
> 
> Now, did you read the news today?
> They say the danger has gone away
> But I can see the fire's still alight
> They're burning into the night
> 
> There's too many men, too many people
> Making too many problems
> And there's not much love to go around
> Can't you see this is the land of confusion?
> ...............
> ................
> Oh, Superman, where are you now?


Trump's America:
Your life isn't worth much more than a bad round of golf.


----------



## Wino

In Turnips world life is worthless UNLESS it's one of his lemmings. These are truly sad days for this nation I fear has been lost to the fascist DJT regime. Never, in my wildest dreams, would this nation ever succumb to the rantings and raving madness of rich white trash.😭


----------



## Johnny b

The AG William Bar .........................

* 'What happened to the Trump presidential campaign ... must never happen again' *
https://www.usatoday.com/story/news...ules-fbi-surveillance-politicians/3456379001/



> The new rules, which involved requiring the FBI to consider briefing an official, candidate or adviser that they might be compromised by foreign governments, before applying for a surveillance warrant, were part of department-wide changes to address problems in the early stages of the Russia investigation.


Elected officials, candidates, and their staff members and advisers must first be notified that their criminal behavior is going to be investigated before investigations are allowed to be initiated.

Trump sighed in relief .....

lawyers held on massive retainers.....

want ads placed for fixers.......

and Putin smiled.

..............

What the hell good is surveillance if the target get tipped off before hand?


----------



## Johnny b

This is just so believable lol!

Trump denies the claims he had a series of mini strokes and claims fake news........even though no one claimed he had had a series of mini strokes.

https://thehill.com/homenews/administration/514583-trump-denies-mini-strokes-sent-him-to-walter-reed



> President Trump on Tuesday denied that he made an emergency visit to the hospital last year after suffering "a series of mini-strokes" after a new book claimed that Vice President Pence was on standby in the event Trump was incapacitated.
> The president's denial raised eyebrows, as *the book from New York Times correspondent Michael Schmidt did not specifically state that Trump had suffered from a series of small strokes.*
> (edit: bolding mine)


COVFEFE!!!!


----------



## Johnny b

Another unbelievable story, this time from...Sarah Sanders.
A bit surprising considering her own politics.

*Trump told Sarah Sanders to 'take one for the team' after Kim Jong-un wink *
https://www.theguardian.com/us-news...s-take-one-for-the-team-kim-jong-un-wink-book

(Caution: Trump is quoted as to using foul language, I cant quote it in it's entirety. So, if foul language bothers you, you might not want to read the entire article)



> Sanders writes, she looked up "to notice Kim staring at me. We made direct eye contact and Kim nodded and appeared to wink at me. I was stunned. I quickly looked down and continued taking notes.
> 
> "… All I could think was, 'What just happened? Surely Kim Jong-un did not just mark me!?'"
> 
> Later, in the presidential "Beast" limousine on the way to the airport, Sanders relayed the incident to Trump and his then chief of staff, John Kelly.
> 
> "Kim Jong-un hit on you!" Trump said. "He did! He 'bleeping' hit on you!"
> 
> Sanders, a devout Christian who discusses her faith throughout her book, does not spell out the presidential expletive. But she does write that she told Trump that was not what she meant, and said: "Sir, please stop."
> 
> Kelly backed up the president and Trump joked: "Well, Sarah, that settles it. You're going to North Korea and taking one for the team! Your husband and kids will miss you, but you'll be a hero to your country!"
> 
> Trump and Kelly, Sanders writes, "howled with laughter" as the car drove on.


Sarah.....how could you 

I am shocked


----------



## Wino

I'd say Kim is myopic.


----------



## Johnny b

Trump requests North Carolina voters commit voter fraud, a Federal offense.

* Trump encourages North Carolina residents to vote twice to test mail-in system *
https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/20...esidents-vote-twice-test-mail-system-n1239140

Why isn't Trump being arrested? (  )

https://www.fbi.gov/scams-and-safety/common-scams-and-crimes/election-crimes-and-security

https://www.justice.gov/file/1107441/download (pdf file)

https://www.fec.gov/documents/2248/2020-05-27-ELW-Facts-About-Voting-by-Mail.pdf


----------



## Wino

Not sure about NC, but Texas is computerize. If one gets a mail in ballot or is on the list to get a mail in ballot (as I do), if I were to try to vote at a poll regardless of whether I've sent in my ballot, I will not be allowed to poll vote. If I change my mind and decide to vote in person, I must bring my unmarked ballot to poll for disposal and THEN may vote provisional - increasing the possibility my vote against Trump won't be counted. The chances of voting fraud is slim to none and the idiot president knows this as does his criminal AG and the rest of his minions. Never thought this nation would elect an ignorant piece of rich white trash for president.

With my past history of living and working in 3rd world countries, I hope I'm well prepared to work through the future until it ends.

DJT is without doubt the worse virus to have ever infected this planet.


----------



## Johnny b

> DJT is without doubt the worse virus to have ever infected this planet.


Agreed.

Same page, different view.

There is a lust for extreme nationalism that has overtaken a large minority in the US.
It's called 'fascism'.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Far-right_politics

It includes the usual negative elements, like racism, militant militias, elitism, conspiracy theories and especially the embracing of authoritarianism. 
The end justifies the means. Criminal behavior can thus be justified even when the goals are never met.

Long ago, Trump learned how to tap into those mentalities for personal gain.

A once great nation deteriorates while the factions causing it chant 'MAGA'.


----------



## Johnny b

Of course Trump denies this news article, there is an election coming soon 

* Trump: Americans Who Died in War Are 'Losers' and 'Suckers' *
https://www.theatlantic.com/politic...ho-died-at-war-are-losers-and-suckers/615997/



> The president has repeatedly disparaged the intelligence of service members, and asked that wounded veterans be kept out of military parades, multiple sources tell _The Atlantic_.


Why should/would anyone believe his denial?

https://www.washingtonpost.com/poli...e-more-than-20000-false-or-misleading-claims/

https://www.politifact.com/factchecks/list/?speaker=donald-trump&ruling=false

https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2020/08/trumps-lies-about-coronavirus/608647/

The list goes on, but this one was worth quoting:

https://www.forbes.com/sites/davidm...s-lying-more-than-ever-just-look-at-the-data/


> As of early April, Trump has told 23.3 lies per day in 2020, a 0.5-lie increase since 2019. What's more, Trump has averaged 23.8 lies per day since the first case of COVID-19 was reported in the US - another 0.5-lie increase. Even during a pandemic, when the public needs to trust and rely on him the most, deception remains a core part of the president's playbook.


----------



## Wino

Our 'Brave' President Bone Spurs absolutely no doubt said exactly what has been reported. Donald J. Trump is a pathetic excuse of a human being. I reiterate, rich white trash.


----------



## Johnny b

Another article verifying Trump has made disparaging remarks about US Military members killed defending our nation.

* 
Report: Trump disparaged US war dead as 'losers,' 'suckers'*
https://www.usatoday.com/story/news...-dead-losers-atlantic-report-says/5714575002/



> The Defense officials also confirmed to The AP reporting in The Atlantic that Trump on Memorial Day 2017 had gone with his chief of staff, John Kelly, to visit the Arlington Cemetery gravesite of Kelly's son, Robert, who was killed in 2010 in Afghanistan, and said to Kelly: "I don't get it. What was in it for them?"


----------



## Wino

I'm presuming "them" isn't the military dead, but his administration.

This is why I'm so confused as to why such a large swath of the military like or vote for this trash.


----------



## ekim68

'I Keep My Promises,' Trump Said. Let's Check.



> Here's a report card on whether the president met his 2016 campaign pledges.


----------



## Johnny b

Opinion piece from a political analyst at Fox News (  )

* Swamp creature at the White House *
https://thehill.com/opinion/white-house/515334-juan-williams-swamp-creature-at-the-white-house



> ......Trump is king of the swamp.


Worth reading the whole article


----------



## Johnny b

*Lou Dobbs Seethes: 'Even Fox News' Is 'Pushing the Lie' That Trump Disparaged Military *
https://www.thedailybeast.com/lou-d...ushing-the-lie-that-trump-disparaged-military



> "President Trump's actions and demonstration of respect for the military speak for themselves," he added. "Shame on the left. Shame on the radical Dimms. And shame on the fake news and fake journalists who manufacture it."


Shame on Lou Dobbs.
And those that blindly deny reality.


----------



## ekim68

Removal of flag honoring veterans from White House sparks anger



> WASHINGTON (Reuters) - A decision by the Trump administration earlier this year to move the flag honoring missing war veterans from a prominent position atop the White House to a less visible spot on the South Lawn has angered some veterans and lawmakers, who see it as disrespectful and potentially illegal.


----------



## ekim68

A time-line thing..


The Coronavirus According to Donald Trump



> A tick-tock of the President's remarks over the last seven weeks as the COVID-19 viral disease outbreak grew into a pandemic.


----------



## Johnny b

MAGA:

* Roger Stone calls for Trump to declare 'martial law' if he loses the election - and order arrests of Mark Zuckerberg, Tim Cook, and the Clintons *

https://www.businessinsider.com/stone-calls-for-trump-to-declare-martial-law-election-loss-2020-9

Also:
https://www.mediamatters.org/roger-...-trump-seize-total-power-if-he-loses-election


----------



## Johnny b

Is Trump a victim of Mad Cow?
I've heard a lot of comments about Biden's mental acuity, but what would explain Trump's confusion?

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news...ain-asserts-coronavirus-disappear/5812463002/


> ABC News' Chief Anchor George Stephanopoulos asked Trump whether the coronavirus "would go away without the vaccine?"
> 
> "Sure, over a period of time. Sure, with time it goes away --" Trump responded.
> 
> Stephanopoulos interjected: "--And many deaths."
> 
> "And you'll develop, you'll develop herd -- like a herd mentality. It's going to be -- it's going to be herd developed - and that's going to happen. That will all happen," Trump said.


Herd mentality?
LOL!
That would be just sad if it weren't for the fact it's a quote coming from the President of the United States.

The US is approaching a confirmed 200,000 death count from Covid-19 and Trump responds as if his mind has experienced a Sunbeam MixMaster.
If Biden is on enhancement drugs, perhaps Trump ought to give them a try


----------



## Johnny b

LOL.....Stable genius or Mad Cow victim?

* Trump attacks Biden on coronavirus mask mandates. But Biden doesn't hold public office *
https://www.usatoday.com/story/news...09/16/trump-town-hall-biden-masks/5814307002/



> President Donald Trump caused some confusion during an ABC News town hall on Tuesday when he criticized Democratic nominee Joe Biden for not following through on a pledge to institute a mask mandate to control the spread of COVID-19 - even though Biden does not hold office - and citing restaurant servers as a group opposed to the use of masks.


What was he thinking?
(I'll bet there was a lot of groaning among his re-election committee.  )


----------



## SeanLaurence

How big a misstep is "herd mentality" anyway? Will it move the needle?
Both Trump and Biden have been known to misspeak on occasion, the difference is that Biden will correct himself.
The bigger issue is, Will anti abortion evangelicals be moved by this week's "hysterectomy" story? Or do they not care because it has only affected alien women?


----------



## Johnny b

SeanLaurence said:


> How big a misstep is "herd mentality" anyway? Will it move the needle?
> Both Trump and Biden have been known to misspeak on occasion, the difference is that Biden will correct himself.
> ..................


Normally it wouldn't mean anything other than stress was getting at them.

But....Trump has made an issue of attacking Biden's intellect. 
And now Trump is exhibiting brain fade


----------



## Johnny b

These lawsuits are during the period of Trump's Presidency.
There are many thousands before becoming President.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_lawsuits_involving_Donald_Trump#Trump_as_defendant

The listings are numerous.
( The TSG censor rejected the lists )
Below are the categories.


> *Lawsuits around the United States Constitution
> 
> Lawsuits around executive orders and presidential proclamations and memorandums
> 
> Lawsuits around potential legal violations
> 
> Lawsuits around the United States Census
> 
> Lawsuits around Trump political campaigns
> 
> Lawsuits around potential sexual misconduct and assault
> ( Further information: Donald Trump sexual misconduct allegations )
> 
> Lawsuits around financial manipulation and employee payment
> 
> Lawsuits around environmental concerns
> 
> Lawsuits around COVID-19
> 
> All current pending prosecution*


WYSIWYG.


----------



## Couriant

Johnny b said:


> These lawsuits are during the period of Trump's Presidency.
> There are many thousands before becoming President.
> 
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_lawsuits_involving_Donald_Trump#Trump_as_defendant
> 
> The listings are numerous.
> ( The TSG censor rejected the lists )
> Below are the categories.
> 
> WYSIWYG.


Add one more:

Trump being sued for doctored racist tweet

" The White House defended Trump's tweet as sarcastic and funny. White House press secretary Kayleigh McEnany said Trump was making 'a satirical point that was quite funny' and noted his tweet was specifically targeted at CNN, a TV network the president regularly blasts as fake news. "

When is a racist post/picture ever funny?


----------



## Wino

Donald Trump is a truly despicable human specimen of rich white trash.


----------



## Couriant

Wino said:


> Donald Trump is a truly despicable human specimen of rich white trash.


And those who defend this kind of actions.


----------



## 2twenty2

Pro-Trump youth group enlists teens in secretive campaign likened to a 'troll farm,' prompting rebuke by Facebook and Twitter
https://www.adn.com/nation-world/20...arm-prompting-rebuke-by-facebook-and-twitter/


----------



## ekim68

Trump's Manufacturing Record Stinks, Newest Data Shows



> His trade wars backfired. Jobs are leaving the U.S. And Obama has a much better claim to be a friend of workers


----------



## ekim68

On a lighter note.. 


The comedy that got 
inside Trump's head



> It may be hard to spoof such an atypical president, but these 10 creative minds did it best.


----------



## ekim68

A good read..


The unanswered question of our time: Is Trump an agent of Russia?



> The FBI faced a national security nightmare three years ago: It suspected that the new president of the United States was, in some unknown way, in the sway of Russia.


----------



## ekim68

Trump's Taxes Show He's a National Security Threat



> What trade-offs would a president with this level of indebtedness be willing to make to save face?


----------



## ekim68

U.S. Generals are raising the alarm



> Our military has leaned strongly Republican. By law, active military are constrained from political action. Most retired officers are highly politically aware but strive to be non-partisan, and are often not aligned with either party.
> 
> The fact that so many top-ranked former Generals and Admirals have gone on record to speak out against Donald Trump underscores the gravity of the threat he represents to our democracy and, ultimately, what it means to be American.


----------



## Wino

The first debate, like his first term, was nothing more than a yuge dumpster fire. No question now about his racism and radical right wing hate creds. I'd say he scored a perfect 10. Sad and a big sigh!!


----------



## Couriant

I caught the tail end of that so I can't really comment on Biden but if the display of Trump's conduct doesn't sway anyone with an ounce of decency to vote for Biden then the country is smegged.


----------



## Chawbacon

Wino said:


> The first debate, like his first term, was nothing more than a yuge dumpster fire. No question now about his racism and radical right wing hate creds. I'd say he scored a perfect 10. Sad and a big sigh!!


I concur that the debate was essentially an utter fiasco of incoherency. Let's hope that both candidates behave better at the next town hall debate.


Couriant said:


> I caught the tail end of that so I can't really comment on Biden but if the display of Trump's conduct doesn't sway anyone with an ounce of decency to vote for Biden then the country is smegged.


Just remember that decency is not the only, nor should it be the primary, issue at hand. Your vote should be determined on which candidate/party most closely aligns with your views and belief system. Trump is no where near a night in shining armor; but, to be honest, neither is Biden.


----------



## Johnny b

Chawbacon said:


> ..................................
> 
> Just remember that decency is not the only, nor should it be the primary, issue at hand. Your vote should be determined on which candidate/party most closely aligns with your views and belief system. Trump is no where near a night in shining armor; but, to be honest, neither is Biden.


With out morality and ethics being a prime consideration, there is no humanity to leadership.
That is currently our society's biggest enemy. 
The rejection of moral and ethical values.
And not just by the current leadership.
It's a dangerous trait embraced by a large part of our society.

Continued, it will become the downfall of our society as factions compete for leadership using violence.
The militia movement is a prime example.

Moral and ethical leadership is crucial for a healthy and successful society.


----------



## Johnny b

After being infected with the virus SARS-CoV-2 that causes Covid-19, Trump now seems to think he was immune and removes his mask for a photo op.



> *'Maybe I'm Immune': Trump Returns To White House, Removes Mask Despite Infection*


https://www.npr.org/sections/latest...hite-house-removes-mask-after-covid-treatment

Maybe someone in the medical field needs to help Trump understand what the term 'immune' means?
Most likely he's still contagious.

Just another example of acceptable insanity that fronts as a political party.


----------



## Wino

He has learned nothing. Never will.


----------



## ekim68

Facebook removes Trump post falsely saying flu is more lethal than Covid



> Facebook on Tuesday removed a post from President Trump in which he falsely claimed that Covid-19 is less deadly than the seasonal flu.
> Facebook spokesperson Andy Stone confirmed the company removed the post for breaking its rules on Covid-19 misinformation.


----------



## 2twenty2

Its spam!

It has been reported


----------



## Johnny b

2twenty2 said:


> Its spam!


Ya beat me to it LOL!


----------



## Johnny b

2twenty2 said:


> Its spam!
> 
> It has been reported


At least twice


----------



## Wino

3x - I reported it half hour or so ago WITHOUT clicking on link bait!!


----------



## Cookiegal

Johnny,

Just an FYI. I deleted your post cautioning about the "above" link because since the spam post has been deleted it now looks like you're referring to ekim68's post which also contains a link, in order to avoid any confusion.


----------



## Wino

Will it seems cry baby is refusing to do a virtual debate on Oct. 15. I'm guessing he wanted another shot at infecting Biden with CV-19, since it appears he may have missed during last debate. I have absolutely no doubts that Trump knew he was infected during first debate, knowing he could get treatment Biden couldn't. He is that mentally sick. Hope he gets to discuss with Herman soon.


----------



## Johnny b

Cookiegal said:


> Johnny,
> 
> Just an FYI. I deleted your post cautioning about the "above" link because since the spam post has been deleted it now looks like you're referring to ekim68's post which also contains a link, in order to avoid any confusion.


That's A OK with me.  ....:up:


----------



## Chawbacon

Wino said:


> Will it seems cry baby is refusing to do a virtual debate on Oct. 15. I'm guessing he wanted another shot at infecting Biden with CV-19, since it appears he may have missed during last debate. I have absolutely no doubts that Trump knew he was infected during first debate, knowing he could get treatment Biden couldn't. He is that mentally sick. Hope he gets to discuss with Herman soon.


Wino. I understand that you have an intense dislike, hatred even, of President Trump; however, I believe that you are above this type of statement.


----------



## Wino

Obviously, you are mistaken. He easily brings out the worst of people.


----------



## Johnny b

Wino said:


> Obviously, you are mistaken. He easily brings out the worst of people.


Indeed.
As he uses the worst as his henchmen, it's a given.


----------



## Chawbacon

Wino said:


> Obviously, you are mistaken. He easily brings out the worst of people.


Well, that statement is definitely opinion oriented; regardless, we as individuals should strive to do better. than those we view as morally bankrupt.


----------



## Johnny b

Chawbacon said:


> Well, that statement is definitely opinion oriented; regardless, we as individuals should strive to do better. than those we view as morally bankrupt.


Was that for the audience? 
Trump was morally bankrupt long before running for office.
Of course we should do better.
Nominating and electing him was truly a bizarre way of striving to 'do better'.
And here we are......having been subjected to more of the same, only more intense, considering him again for the highest office in our government.


----------



## Johnny b

Trump now suggests Gold Star families infected him.

* Democrats rip Trump for suggesting Gold Star families could have given him Covid-19 *
https://www.politico.com/news/2020/10/08/trump-gold-star-families-coronavirus-427875

With out contact-tracing, it will be difficult to determine who infected Trump and no order was put out to do contact tracing in regards to Trump.
He can blame anyone he wants to, regardless of reality.


----------



## Johnny b

A question of morality and ethics for those that are 'Right to Lifers' and support Trump's usage of Regeneron.

Regeneron is derived from cells of an aborted fetus.

* Trump's antibody treatment was tested using cells originally derived from an abortion *
https://www.technologyreview.com/20...ment-was-tested-using-cells-from-an-abortion/



> The emergency antibody that Trump received last week was developed with the use of a cell line originally derived from abortion tissue, according to Regeneron Pharmaceuticals, the company that developed the experimental drug.


Now imagine a nation using abortion as a means of survival.

Hypocrisy at it's greatest intensity!
Brought to you by a desperate Donald J Trump.

From the above link:


> The Trump administration has taken an increasingly firm line against medical research using fetal tissue from abortions. For example, when it moved in 2019 to curtail the ability of the National Institutes of Health to fund such research, supporters hailed a "major pro-life victory" and thanked Trump personally for taking decisive action against what they called the "outrageous and disgusting" practice of "experimentation using baby body parts."


And now there is this:

* Trump has ties to drugmaker Regeneron -- and now its stock is surging *
https://www.cnn.com/2020/10/05/investing/trump-regeneron/index.html


> Meanwhile, Trump also recently owned shares of Regeneron (REGN)


OK 'Right to Lifers'......do you support Donald J Trump turning the USA into a baby 'chop shop' as a solution to treat Covid-19.


----------



## Johnny b

Op Ed articles aren't news, but sometimes the irascible humor is spot on.
This one involves 'dark humor'.
And it's content should scare the hell out of us.

* Trump on drugs. Who could have seen this coming? *
https://www.washingtonpost.com/opin...219e90-0a4a-11eb-859b-f9c27abe638d_story.html


----------



## 2twenty2

> *BREAKING NEWS:* Nancy Pelosi announces she is launching commission on Donald Trump's 'capacity for office' in move towards using 25th Amendment to remove him - as he goes on twitter rant calling her crazy and accusing her of a 'coup'


https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/ar...cured-interview-COVID-hospital-treatment.html


----------



## SeanLaurence

2twenty2 said:


> https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/ar...cured-interview-COVID-hospital-treatment.html


A couple of things here:
Speaker Pelosi actually " unveiled legislation Friday that would allow Congress to intervene under the 25th Amendment to the Constitution to remove the president", which would have to pass the congress, the senate and, without a supermajority, get Trump's signature. So something for Biden to pass maybe.

https://apnews.com/article/virus-ou...impeachments-735b874cafb7244ff9535b45aa76d435

If Trump were responsible, he would have discussed the side effects of Covid and the treatments that he was on, and invoked the 25th himself.

Try not to use the Daily Mail as a news source:


http://imgur.com/a/N9WWY4a


----------



## Wino

*"MY LIFE OF CRIME" WITH ERIN MORIARTY: A "48 HOURS" ORIGINAL PODCAST*
I just knew this headline was going to be a bio of our wonderful grifter president. Alas, it's about other mass murderers and crime.


----------



## Johnny b

The Trump death cult marches on in step with the 'Great Barrington Declaration'.

* Herd immunity strategy endorsed by White House a 'ridiculous' way to stop COVID, say scientists - it will just kill people *
https://www.usatoday.com/story/news...mp-endorsed-covid-strategy-deadly/3655134001/

You can read about the Great Barrington Declaration here:
https://gbdeclaration.org/#read

What isn't posted there is the connection to rightwing extremist libertarians.
The 'Declaration' came out of the American Institute for Economic Research, that has close ties to various Koch-funded think tanks ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Institute_for_Economic_Research )
Giving one's life in a patriotic act is one thing ( noble ), but this is obviously generated 'for profit' and the public is not invited for that 'benefit'.

Basically, it supports Sweden's attempt at herd immunity.
( It works, as long as you die.  )

* The Swedish COVID-19 Response Is a Disaster. It Shouldn't Be a Model for the Rest of the World *
https://time.com/5899432/sweden-coronovirus-disaster/


> As of Oct. 13, Sweden's per capita death rate is 58.4 per 100,000 people, according to Johns Hopkins University data, 12th highest in the world (not including tiny Andorra and San Marino)


https://www.webmd.com/lung/news/20200813/swedens-no-lockdown-policy-didnt-achieve-herd-immunity

https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/full/10.1177/0141076820945282

https://www.forbes.com/sites/mishag...ens-attempt-at-covid-19-herd-immunity-failed/

The new cult infecting the US, dying for Trump.


----------



## Couriant

hmm i didn't get the notices for these posts... But i agree with Wino... Trump does bring out the worse in people... and i'm a pretty chilled guy.


----------



## Johnny b

I've also noticed that I beat the notices to new replies.
A bit irregular, I don't see a pattern.


----------



## Chawbacon

> *Smoking-gun email reveals how Hunter Biden introduced Ukrainian businessman to VP dad*
> https://nypost.com/2020/10/14/email-reveals-how-hunter-biden-introduced-ukrainian-biz-man-to-dad/


Way too much information in this article; but, this is an October surprise that will please President Trump; because, it just provides political ammunition.

Personally, I think that Trump needs to wait until more information is gathered/confirmed; however, I cannot see Trump restraining himself here.

If the allegations are proven true, this is a really bad look for Joe Biden. Not necessarily illegal though.


----------



## Chawbacon

Couriant said:


> hmm i didn't get the notices for these posts... But i agree with Wino... Trump does bring out the worse in people... and i'm a pretty chilled guy.


Exactly how does Trump wanting the USA to be great, along with a stated desire for every citizen to be successful, become equated to bringing out the worst in people?


----------



## Johnny b

Chawbacon said:


> Exactly how does Trump wanting the USA to be great, along with a stated desire for every citizen to be successful, become equated to bringing out the worst in people?


It's most obvious with your Trumptonian Covid-19 death cult issues.
Death becomes equated to patriotism and success, as profit motivation becomes a replacement for morality and ethics.

Killing us seems to grant you Trumpies 'power'.
Killing yourselves........well.......part of the cult?


----------



## Johnny b

Chawbacon said:


> ...................
> 
> If the allegations are proven true, ...........................


There you go with those 'If's again 
And so close to the election.


----------



## Couriant

Chawbacon said:


> Exactly how does Trump wanting the USA to be great, along with a stated desire for every citizen to be successful, become equated to bringing out the worst in people?


I don't have time to list them all but to sum it up, the biggest thing that made me want to punch him was his disrespect to not only Joe but to Chris in the first televised debate. He's nothing more than a man-child that does not radiate any presidential qualities. All he cares about are law suits to anyone who makes him pouty.


----------



## Chawbacon

Couriant said:


> I don't have time to list them all but to sum it up, the biggest thing that made me want to punch him was his disrespect to not only Joe but to Chris in the first televised debate. He's nothing more than a man-child that does not radiate any presidential qualities. All he cares about are law suits to anyone who makes him pouty.


You do realize that Joe and Chris repeatedly interrupted President Trump first, right?  Obviously, Trump was not going to allow Chris and Joe to create a repeat of Joe's VP debates back in the day, and Trump simply dominated the debate stage moving forward as a countermeasure.


----------



## Chawbacon

Johnny b said:


> It's most obvious with your Trumptonian Covid-19 death cult issues.
> Death becomes equated to patriotism and success, as profit motivation becomes a replacement for morality and ethics.
> 
> Killing us seems to grant you Trumpies 'power'.
> Killing yourselves........well.......part of the cult?


So wanting the country and everyone in the country to prosper equals "death cult issues" eh? 🤨 You might want to work on your priorities a bit bub.


----------



## Johnny b

Chawbacon said:


> So wanting the country and everyone in the country to prosper equals "death cult issues" eh? 🤨 You might want to work on your priorities a bit bub.


In Trumptonian terms, you nailed it precisely, dude 
Getting wealthy by way of sacrifice is Trump's priority.
The issue is of course, who gets to be wealthy and who gets to die.
Who exists in luxury and who endeavors to survive.

Let me guess, you think you're on the 'A list'. LOL!


----------



## Johnny b

Chawbacon said:


> You do realize that Joe and Chris repeatedly interrupted President Trump first, right?  Obviously, Trump was not going to allow Chris and Joe to create a repeat of Joe's VP debates back in the day, and Trump simply dominated the debate stage moving forward as a countermeasure.


I missed the first 6 or 7 minutes, but I didn't see any debate with Trump talking over Biden and going off topic.
It wasn't worth my time, just noise. I only listened for a couple minutes and turned off the TV.

From what I read of the 'debate' all Trump dominated was the audio volume.


----------



## Wino

I watched cover to cover. Trump was his usual ill informed, obnoxiously bloviating and hadn't a clue what he was talking about. He sure has turned into a whiney needy candidate, begging people to vote for him that he has taken a huge dump on. He cancelled the second debate cause they weren't going to allow him to roughshod over moderator or Biden.
I expect he will not show for 3rd debate. I do not agree with their silencing mikes for candidates while candidates are speaking - I want Trump to make an idiot of himself once more as he did in first debate.
Watching the first debate was a real challenge not to puke at the asininities of your prez.
I also wholeheartedly believe Trump knowingly was covid-19 positive at first debate and tried his best to infect Biden. Which was why he arrived too late to debate to be tested. I think Biden is a fool for being anywhere near this walking talking incoherent festering human stain.


----------



## Johnny b

It's rather obvious after the last 4 years of Trumpism, it's not a concept that dovetails with a democratic society.
Biden's going to take a hit at the polls because of the latest claims, which are a distraction as this article points out:

* Enough about Hunter Biden. What about Ivanka Trump? *
https://www.bostonglobe.com/2020/10/19/opinion/enough-about-hunter-biden-what-about-ivanka-trump/

But....read the last line first:


> Voters are smart enough to see that and won't be distracted by Hunter Biden - right?


There are elements that belong to both parties that do not keep up with current events and vote blindly.
There are some that vote from the influence of emotionalism.
And then there are elements that vote for radical agendas. Both Democrats and Republicans.
The Democrat Party chose to largely reject the socialist element this election, however, the Republican Party chose to embrace the fascism, racism and criminal activity that exists in the Trump realm.
The last part of the above sentence is what poses a threat to our Constitutionally guaranteed rights and freedoms.

There is a large segment of what is called 'The Republican Party' that has no reluctance to violence and criminality in order to impose it's rule.
Where the left has it's 'Antifa' as a response to right-wing subversion, Trumpism has the Tea Party, the Libertarian faction, armed white supremacists, armed Neo Nazis, armed illegal militias .....not in response to 'Antifa, but in a determination to rule, often destroying the mechanisms of a free society, in order to do that.

I suspect Trump's Civil War will come, either way, from losing or winning the coming election. 
The first will likely happen in short order.
The latter depends on how long and severely the general public suffers under extended Trumpism.

Biden has to do more than win the election.
He needs to heal a nation that currently has a sizable population that embraces violence as a solution to their wants.

As much as the welfare culture has been seen as entitlement oriented, so have these 'New' Republicans. 
The first is the entitlement of a cushy life through government handouts.
The other involves a a cushy life by being the 'New" rulers.
What those lemmings forget, only the leaders get that entitlement.


----------



## Couriant

Chawbacon said:


> You do realize that Joe and Chris repeatedly interrupted President Trump first, right?  Obviously, Trump was not going to allow Chris and Joe to create a repeat of Joe's VP debates back in the day, and Trump simply dominated the debate stage moving forward as a countermeasure.


 I didn't watch the beginning so I cannot say... but judging from the part i did start watching him from, my guess he was going off subject or some wild tangent while taking too much time... who knows. Not planning to watch it.

Besides he could have taken the high ground (not that he would) and shown the respect but he is clearly incapable of that.


----------



## Couriant

haha


----------



## Johnny b

Trump invests in China's future.
Biden doesn't.

The tip of the 'iceberg'.

* New York Times: Tax records show Trump maintains Chinese bank account  *
https://www.cnn.com/2020/10/20/politics/trump-china-taxes-financial-records/index.html


----------



## Johnny b

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news...election-special-trump-did-pay-taxes-in-china



> The New York Times recently revealed that Donald Trump paid no personal income tax to the IRS in 10 of the 15 years before he won the presidency. But the newspaper has now revealed that from 2013 to 2015 he paid almost $200,000 in taxes to China, where he still maintains a bank account and spent years pursuing business deals - a potentially major conflict of interest for a president who has fought both of his election campaigns on a promise to stand up to Beijing.


----------



## Johnny b

LOL!
Trump...the 'Manchurian candidate' 

* Trump Records Shed New Light on Chinese Business Pursuits *
https://www.nytimes.com/2020/10/20/us/trump-taxes-china.html


----------



## Johnny b

While Trump focuses on China as an enemy, his friends and supporters in Russia are promoting this:

* Hackers behind life-threatening attack on chemical maker are sanctioned *
https://arstechnica.com/information...ho-hit-chemical-maker-with-dangerous-malware/



> The attack drew considerable concern because it's the first known time hackers have used malware designed to cause death or injury, a prospect that may have actually happened had it not been for a lucky series of events. The hackers-who have been linked to a Moscow-based research lab *owned by the Russian government*-have also targeted a second facility and been caught scanning US power grids.


(bolding mine)

'MAGA'
Make America Great Again.

Really? How's that work?

Racism. 
Economic disruption through tariffs. 
Economic disruption by ignoring a pandemic.
Death by ignoring a pandemic.
Attempted collusion with a foreign government leading to impeachment.
Unhealthy relationships with dictators and oligarchs. 
Unhealthy support from extremist right wing militias.
The lies.

And it only took 4 years.

And now hacker/terrorists are sanctioned by his 'buds' in the Russian government to not only destroy our infrastructure, but also kill us as they do it.

With friends like that........


----------



## Johnny b

Trump has tried to placate the US with one lie after another concerning the Covid-19 pandemic.

From chugging bleach, swallowing uv light bulbs, voodoo medical 'doctors' to a promised vaccine in several weeks.

And now there is this:

* Huge COVID study finds remdesivir doesn't work-FDA grants approval anyway *
https://arstechnica.com/science/202...vid-19-but-global-study-finds-it-doesnt-work/


----------



## 2twenty2

Trump says 'nobody gets hacked' but forgot his hotel chain was hacked - twice

https://techcrunch.com/2020/10/19/nobody-gets-hacked-trump-hotel-chain-twice/


----------



## ekim68

The Rust Belt boom that wasn't: Heartland job growth lagged under Trump



> (Reuters) - The voters of Monroe County, Michigan, may have expected an economic windfall when they flipped from supporting Democrat Barack Obama to help put Donald Trump in the White House in 2016.
> 
> But it went the other way:


----------



## ekim68

The Trump administration is burying dozens of studies detailing the promise of renewable energy, impeding a transition away from fossil fuels



> In all, the department has blocked reports for more than 40 clean energy studies. The department has replaced them with mere presentations, buried them in scientific journals that are not accessible to the public, or left them paralyzed within the agency, according to emails and documents obtained by InvestigateWest, as well as interviews with more than a dozen current and former employees at the Department of Energy, or DOE, and its national labs.


----------



## Couriant

ekim68 said:


> The Trump administration is burying dozens of studies detailing the promise of renewable energy, impeding a transition away from fossil fuels


I am not surprised since he has Bob Murray in his pockets.


----------



## Johnny b

Murry died recently.


----------



## Couriant

Johnny b said:


> Murry died recently.


I was not aware of this... I can't say I would share a tear though


----------



## Johnny b

Couriant said:


> I was not aware of this... I can't say I would share a tear though


I wouldn't shed a tear either.

Coal mining was a dirty business in too many ways.

I suspect most of the influence from Trump is focused on giving the oil industry advantages/perks.
There are big changes coming to that business model with the electrification of cars, pkup trucks and even the big rig tractor trailer rigs.


----------



## Couriant

Well PA looks like it will vote trump.... although it looks like MI will be blue with 99% votes in.... if that is the case then we will be adding another pumpkin to the pile.


----------



## ekim68

Trump's DOJ Still Pretending Everything Has An 'Interstate' Nexus To Throw Federal Charges At Protester



> The Trump Administration's desire to turn protests against police brutality into an antifa conspiracy have failed. But not for a lack of trying. Federal officers have been sent to major cities still experiencing unrest, but arrest data and DOJ press releases show there's very little evidence that coordinated groups of anarchists are behind the violence and property destruction witnessed around the nation. Instead, it appears to be a loose assortment of white dudes who've spent too much time talking themselves up on social media.


----------



## Johnny b

This is an opinion piece but relevant.

* Trump's huge vote total breaks my heart. I recognize this America and I wish I did not. *
https://www.usatoday.com/story/opin...donald-trump-heartbreaking-column/6165245002/

Our nation won't succeed just by electing Biden.
As a society, it needs to reject what Trumpism stands for.
Trump didn't invent it.
He simply took the time and effort to gather, en masse, those that already accept it's core beliefs.



> Yes, former Vice President Joe Biden may squeak out a victory. But even if he does, we've been slapped with the heartbreaking reality that nearly half our country voted for President Donald Trump after spending four years watching him spew unbridled bigotry, engage in blatant corruption, and tell so many lies you'd need a magnifying glass to read the Washington Post's running list of false and misleading claims.


----------



## Couriant

I'm surprised that @steppenwolf hasn't spewed the false claims that have been going around Trumpettes FB pages so I will post them here.

*Fairfax Virginia has switched 100,000 votes from Trump to Biden stating a "clerical error" *
Election officials say a spreadsheet error led to Biden receiving an extra 100,000 votes, but it was quickly corrected. Votes were not taken from President Donald Trump

*Michigan has gained 138.339 ballots for Biden since they stopped counting last night. A whopping zero for Trump *
This was corrected quickly because it was a clerical error.

*Wisconsin suddenly discovers over 112k Biden ballots between 3:30 am and 4:30 am *
Milwaukee didn't finish counting absentee ballots until 3 a.m. The outstanding ballots at that point -- including 169,000 from Milwaukee -- overwhelmingly broke for the Democrat.

Still checking the others but this one caught my eye:

*6 states trump has sizable leads, all six states decided to stop counting ballots on election night (unheard of) and they all have blue strong holds *
Well they shouldn't be stopping the counts (even though Trump is trying to do this)... even they are stopping the counts, it's because of the idiots that are going to the ballot counting locations and causing problems.
Arizona polling center is forced to CLOSE as armed Trump supporters lay siege


----------



## Johnny b

And so it goes.
I suspected this would start.

*Fox and CNN covered President Trump's falsehood-laden speech but MSNBC quickly drops coverage *
https://www.usatoday.com/story/ente...od-laden-speech-msnbc-pulled-away/6182029002/

edit:

* Facebook Removes Pro-Trump Group Urging 'Boots On The Ground' *
https://www.npr.org/2020/11/05/931794937/facebook-removes-pro-trump-group-urging-boots-on-the-ground

edit:

* Trump levels baseless claims about effort to 'steal' the election as Biden's lead grows *
https://www.usatoday.com/story/news...raud-as-biden-election-lead-grows/6101703002/

edit:

* Trump prepares to launch a second term early, even without winning *
https://www.politico.com/news/2020/11/05/trump-second-term-without-winning-434464


----------



## Wino

Dead man walking, and he will never know or understand.


----------



## Johnny b

Criminal, ex-Trump advisor and national socialist, Steve Bannon calls for the beheading of Fauci and Wray.

* Twitter bans ex-Trump aide Steve Bannon for encouraging violence against Anthony Fauci *
https://www.usatoday.com/story/news...is-fbi-christopher-wray-beheading/6185284002/



> A Twitter account belonging to President Donald Trump's former White House chief strategist Steve Bannon was permanently suspended late Thursday after he suggested Anthony Fauci, America's top infectious-disease expert, and FBI Director Christoper Wray, should be beheaded for failing to adequately back the president.
> 
> "I'd put the heads on pikes. Right. I'd put them at the two corners of the White House as a warning to federal bureaucrats. You either get with the program or you are gone," Bannon said during a livestream of his online podcast show "War Room: Pandemic."


----------



## Couriant

Johnny b said:


> Criminal, ex-Trump advisor and national socialist, Steve Bannon calls for the beheading of Fauci and Wray.
> 
> * Twitter bans ex-Trump aide Steve Bannon for encouraging violence against Anthony Fauci *
> https://www.usatoday.com/story/news...is-fbi-christopher-wray-beheading/6185284002/


*smh* though I am not surprised.


----------



## Johnny b

* Philadelphia police detain two after tip about armed group at ballot-counting site *

https://www.washingtonpost.com/nation/2020/11/06/philadelphia-attack-plot-vote-count-election/

I suspect there will be many more reports of this type.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/nati...itid=ap_robertklemko&itid=lk_inline_manual_24


----------



## Couriant

The WP requires me to subscribe bud..  But I agree, I would also think we will be seeing these types of stories for the next few months.


----------



## Cookiegal

Couriant said:


> The WP requires me to subscribe bud


That's odd. I was able to access and read the articles.


----------



## Couriant

Cookiegal said:


> That's odd. I was able to access and read the articles.


hmm maybe it detected that I have read a few free articles... or I have adblock lol


----------



## Cookiegal

I have AdBlock too. 

Using Firefox.


----------



## Johnny b

Cookiegal said:


> That's odd. I was able to access and read the articles.


Same here.


----------



## Johnny b

Cookiegal said:


> I have AdBlock too.
> 
> Using Firefox.


Same here.
I do have NoScript set at default which is to block.


----------



## Couriant

Cookiegal said:


> I have AdBlock too.
> 
> Using Firefox.


Chrome here lol maybe if i clear my cache it will allow me.... anyways I viewed it on FF.


----------



## Johnny b

It's looking like Trump can only wish for this:

* Russian lawmakers consider bill that would give Putin lifelong immunity from prosecution *
https://www.cnn.com/2020/11/06/europe/russia-presidential-immunity-bill-intl/index.html


----------



## Cookiegal

Johnny b said:


> I do have NoScript set at default which is to block.


Me too.


----------



## Johnny b

Trump may have a point about election fraud.

(By the Republican Party, that is)

* Wisconsin Republicans caught apparently encouraging voter fraud in Pennsylvania *
https://news.yahoo.com/wisconsin-republicans-caught-apparently-encouraging-141226986.html


----------



## Wino

Their scumbaggery knows no bounds.


----------



## Johnny b

Johnny b said:


> * Philadelphia police detain two after tip about armed group at ballot-counting site *
> 
> https://www.washingtonpost.com/nation/2020/11/06/philadelphia-attack-plot-vote-count-election/
> 
> I suspect there will be many more reports of this type.
> 
> https://www.washingtonpost.com/nati...itid=ap_robertklemko&itid=lk_inline_manual_24


A followup of the above articles posted earlier.

* Report: Armed men arrested in Philadelphia were trying to deliver fake ballots  *
https://www.cnn.com/2020/11/07/us/pennsylvania-convention-center-arrests/index.html

These were not supporters of Biden or the Democrat Party.
They were, however, supporters of Trump with a Qanon hat positioned on the dashboard of their vehicle, for all to see.


----------



## Johnny b

* Philadelphia: Evacuations underway after bomb threats near vote counting centre *
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/...lection-pennsylvania-vote-count-b1649814.html


----------



## valis

the trump term of office?


well....it is OVER. About damn time too


----------



## Wino

Talking with my daughter awhile ago. Told her I felt like Trump stole or wasted 4 years of my life.


----------



## Couriant

valis said:


> the trump term of office?
> 
> well....it is OVER. About damn time too


Well it's not over until the fat man gets dragged out kicking and screaming... lol


----------



## valis

and sadly it is gonna take that...but man...its over...

and a woman veep....all good


----------



## Johnny b

Good golly it got quiet in this thread. (  )

Well, here's something to watch for 

* 'Vulnerable to prosecution': When Trump leaves White House, presidential 'cloak of immunity' goes away *
https://www.usatoday.com/story/news...its-without-presidential-immunity/6056288002/

Just think....everyone he stiffed before becoming President is lining up and what about those unpaid/fake tax returns? (  ------>  )


----------



## Couriant

Johnny b said:


> Good golly it got quiet in this thread. (  )
> 
> Well, here's something to watch for
> 
> * 'Vulnerable to prosecution': When Trump leaves White House, presidential 'cloak of immunity' goes away *
> https://www.usatoday.com/story/news...its-without-presidential-immunity/6056288002/
> 
> Just think....everyone he stiffed before becoming President is lining up and what about those unpaid/fake tax returns? (  ------>  )


Maybe Steppenwolf is finally taking that break lol


----------



## Johnny b

Tabvla said:


> There are two questions that Forum Members might like to think about and then give their view.
> 
> Q1. How many days will Trump serve as US President?
> Q2. For what reason will his presidency be ended?
> 
> ------------------------- Some info to help answer the questions -------------------------
> 
> Minimum number of days : 1 day
> Maximum number of days : 2,922 days (8 x 365 + 2)
> 
> Possible reasons for presidency to be terminated (in Alphabetical order)
> 
> Completes both terms and therefore must leave office
> Completes first term and does not get re-elected
> Impeachment
> Loses the support of the Republican Party
> Resignation due to perceived threat of danger
> Resignation due to personal issues
> Scandals
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> 
> T.
> 
> [Edited to reflect Littlefield's suggestion]


Tabvia is no longer around to mark this thread solved.

Number two on his list would be the main reason, but who knew four years ago that Trump's administration could cause so much damage to a society from draconian policies and incredible incompetence.

Our greatness will be measured in our ability to overcome what Trump and a pandemic have imposed.


----------



## Wino

The transition is already becoming a childish game playing. Peventing access, no monies, no facilities, access to info. All because the orange pile of puke is butt hurt over his loss. I so look forward to the mega maga incompetence finally being out of power. Also look forward to citizen Trump being prosecuted for many wrongs done before his chaotic reign as wannabe despot and any he can be nailed for treason against the nation.


----------



## Johnny b

Wino said:


> ..............................Also look forward to citizen Trump being prosecuted for many wrongs done before his chaotic reign as wannabe despot and any he can be nailed for treason against the nation.


:up:...:up:...:up:...:up:...:up:


----------



## Johnny b

Looks like Trump's backers in Russia are still trying to sway the election and inject their man.

* Russia refuses to acknowledge Biden's election win because of Trump's 'ongoing legal processes' *
https://www.businessinsider.com/rus...en-election-win-trump-legal-processes-2020-11


----------



## Johnny b

Meanwhile, the fat man sweats:

* Legal problems galore await Trump now that he's lost reelection - and, soon, his presidential immunity *
https://www.businessinsider.com/tru...-indictment-doj-mueller-new-york-2020-11?r=rr



> President Donald Trump could face criminal and civil investigations at the federal and state levels for many years to come now that he's lost the White House and, soon, the immunity from prosecution he's enjoyed.
> New York state officials could prove to be Trump's biggest and longest-lasting headache, given that multiple investigations are already well underway.





> Joe Biden has been noncommittal on whether he would pursue federal charges against Trump using the evidence detailed in the Mueller report.


----------



## Wino

I truly hope Biden doesn't pull a Gerald Ford and give Trump a pass / pardon on ANYTHING. I'm 100% sure that if the political tables were turned rethugs would chase a dem to the gates of hell over every tiny thing true or not - say had Obama just done 10th of the crap Trump has done. We need to insure this perverseness NEVER happens again by any future president regardless of party. Trump, his enablers and his family need to be legally convicted and imprisoned to make this past four years accountable.


----------



## Johnny b

Wino said:


> I truly hope Biden doesn't pull a Gerald Ford and give Trump a pass / pardon on ANYTHING. I'm 100% sure that if the political tables were turned rethugs would chase a dem to the gates of hell over every tiny thing true or not - say had Obama just done 10th of the crap Trump has done. We need to insure this perverseness NEVER happens again by any future president regardless of party. Trump, his enablers and his family need to be legally convicted and imprisoned to make this past four years accountable.


I agree with the sentiment and if the US was really a nation of laws, Trump, much of his immediate family and all of his enablers would be incarcerated.

But.
And this is where reality comes in.
The factions that have supported Trump and...the fascism ( national socialism in the guise of MAGA ) are of a violent mentality. And they are a large portion of our society.

I hate to say it, that 'But' might entail a worsening of our society because of the violent and cruel nature of Trumpism.

Getting rid of Trump is an issue of the calendar.
Ending Trumpism is a different problem.
They are co-joined.

Making him a martyr could result in worse conditions than Trump has already delivered. 

Biden has some really tough decisions to make.


----------



## Johnny b

Trump just fired Esper.

* President Trump fires Defense Secretary Mark Esper after contentious tenure *
https://www.usatoday.com/story/news...ires-defense-secretary-mark-esper/5539760002/


----------



## Wino

Not sure if Wray or Fauci next. Trump will binge fire for the next 72 days along with doing his best to destroy this nation, flaunting norms and being the total ass he has been from the gitgo - in short, nothing changes until he's out of the White House.


----------



## steppenwolf

https://www.youtube.com/hashtag/maidengate


----------



## Johnny b

steppenwolf said:


> https://www.youtube.com/hashtag/maidengate


This seems typical of you, steppenwolf.
A link to a youtube web page full of different content, different themes.
Currently at the top of the web page you posted, is this video.






I stopped at about the 10 minute mark with his crazy math theory.

So...who are the R&R Law Group that made the video?
According to their web page, they appear to be what many people consider the despicables of the legal profession, getting the guilty set free.

https://rrlawaz.com/

excerpt:


> At R&R Law Group, lead attorneys Ryan W. Cummings and Robert F. Gruler created a team of criminal defense attorneys who afford you and those you care about aggressive and experienced representation in DUI, felony, and misdemeanor cases.


(That's Gruler in the video)

A screen shot:
(notice that 'beating' the law seems a priority)










And now R&R are seen defending Trump 
( whether they ever see a paycheck is another matter, with Trump stiffing all that he can)

So what?

Jumping ahead in the video I came across the Pennsylvania law suit that experts say is dead before it got started.

* Nine legal experts say Trump's lawsuit challenging election results in Pennsylvania is dead on arrival *
https://www.usatoday.com/story/news...ion-lawsuit-pennsylvania-baseless/6228914002/

So far, the only voter fraud discovered in Pennsylvania was attempted by Republicans from Wisconsin.

https://news.yahoo.com/wisconsin-republicans-caught-apparently-encouraging-141226986.html

Even Trump suggested violating voter laws before the election.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/poli...633260-ed73-11ea-ab4e-581edb849379_story.html

IMO, that BS video is simply .....well .........loser BS for whinny Trumpers.


----------



## Wino

Everyone knew this would be a difficult transition. Orange puke is doing everything we expected to overthrow our legal votes. He is reinforcing the fact he is the most non American president ever and will do, say, act out on anything that will be detrimental to the nation. Nothing different than last four years. Entitled rich white trash. This nation will be ruing his election for generations, provided the nation continues to exist.


----------



## 2twenty2

*False claims that Biden 'lost' Pennsylvania surge, and tech companies struggle to keep up.*

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/11/10/technology/biden-lost-pennsylvania-claim.html


----------



## Johnny b

In a thread that should be dead or at least winding down, news reports are signifying essentially the destruction of our national defense and a new power base.

And it's by Trump.

* Turmoil at Pentagon as President Trump shakes up leadership team, 'something that should alarm all Americans' *
https://www.usatoday.com/story/news...nior-leadership-enemy-instability/6242106002/

* Trump administration removes senior defense officials and installs loyalists, triggering alarm at Pentagon  *
https://www.cnn.com/2020/11/10/politics/pentagon-policy-official-resigns/index.html

* 'Devastating': Top Pentagon leadership gutted as fears rise over national security  *
https://www.politico.com/news/2020/11/10/pentagon-top-policy-official-resigns-435693


> In quick succession, top officials overseeing policy, intelligence and the defense secretary's staff all had resigned by the end of the day Tuesday, replaced by political operatives who are fiercely loyal to Trump and have trafficked in "deep state" conspiracy theories.


IMO, this has the mark of the end of a democratic society and heralds in the fascism of Trumpism.

A military supported dictatorship now awaits in our future.
Trump fist pumps and Putin smiles.


----------



## Johnny b

Anyone really believe all those extremist militia groups have the best interests of a free society existing in North America?

It will be interesting to see how those fake, chest beating 'patriots' react.


----------



## Wino

Placing loyalist at the top positions. What could go wrong??









He's decapitating leadership in Pentagon and will move on to FBI, CIA, NSA etal to remove non loyalist. Police, Marshalls, Sheriffs across the country are on his side or in his pocket. At least 30-40% of his 71 mil voters would jump at the chance to kill for their dear leader. No doubt a coup is brewing in his feeble small mind. Whether he will be successful or not, I think we are headed for some blood letting

The crap show we all expected is becoming a reality.


----------



## Johnny b

Wino said:


> Placing loyalist at the top positions. What could go wrong??
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ......................
> 
> The crap show we all expected is becoming a reality.


It's like watching a train wreck. 
You know it's a bad situation but nothing you can do to stop it.
Too many extremists want the destruction of our present society in order to build their 
rightwing national socialist utopia.

Bannon promoted it. Trump follows his lead.

(written in August 2017, after Trump was elected)

*Taking Bannon's Economic Nationalism Seriously *
https://prospect.org/economy/taking-bannon-s-economic-nationalism-seriously/



> Much of Trump's anti-immigrant and racist lashing out, and his coddling of neo-Nazis, seems mere spite and impulsivity. But there was a method in this madness, and Bannon was the architect of the method.
> 
> At Breitbart, Bannon realized, much as Hitler did in the 1920s, that masses of people, consigned to the fringes of society, displaced from the economy, appalled by the avant garde culture of the era (as in Weimar), could be turned into a political force that would punch far above its weight.


There is much more to the article that feels familiar with how 'things' are turning out.
IMO, worthy of a full read.


----------



## valis

a train wreck indeed...hard to look away....


----------



## valis

Wino said:


> Placing loyalist at the top positions. What could go wrong??
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> He's decapitating leadership in Pentagon and will move on to FBI, CIA, NSA etal to remove non loyalist. Police, Marshalls, Sheriffs across the country are on his side or in his pocket. At least 30-40% of his 71 mil voters would jump at the chance to kill for their dear leader. No doubt a coup is brewing in his feeble small mind. Whether he will be successful or not, I think we are headed for some blood letting
> 
> The crap show we all expected is becoming a reality.


gotta say....those are scary stats and I believe them wholeheartedly...does not bode well.

this will take years to repair...


----------



## Johnny b

Interesting Opinion piece here:

*Trump wants to make money off the fake 'stolen election' crisis he created. Don't let him. *
https://www.usatoday.com/story/opin...ofit-false-election-claims-column/6239950002/


----------



## Wino

Grifter to the end.


----------



## Johnny b

*Trump campaign adviser Corey Lewandowski tests positive for COVID-19, latest in a series of cases *

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news...ser-trump-tests-positive-covid-19/3762313001/



> His is the latest in a series of announcements of positive test results among those close to Trump, including David Bossie, another adviser to the president, and Mark Meadows, the president's chief of staff. Another campaign aide, Nick Trainer, also tested positive for the virus, according to several media reports.


----------



## SeanLaurence

Am I the only one that finds the polling error in Florida to be suspicious? How is it that polling was off by so much in such a key state? Was polling off by that much anywhere else?


----------



## Johnny b

A little dark humor from Rep. Denver Riggleman, a Republican congressman from Virginia.

https://news.yahoo.com/trump-and-hi...es-republican-congressman-says-213451478.html



> As President Trump's claims of election cheating fall apart in court filings, he is taking his followers down a path of increasingly unhinged conspiracies about millions of votes being altered by mysterious forces manipulating computer systems and voting machines.
> 
> "That really is, really, I think, the Island of the Misfit Toys at that point. You have crossed the Rubicon, you jumped on the crazy train and you're headed into the cliffs that guard the flat earth at that time, brother,"


 so true.


----------



## Wino

Biden should be suing and demanding a Florida recount and audit. Considering their guv is a Trumpian robot, I'd suspect a ton of nefarious actions behind the curtain.


----------



## Johnny b

IMO, the imagery of what's going on in Florida looks like Hell is about to start for the elderly.

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news...tions-state-list-orders-lockdowns/3761230001/


> Republican Gov. Ron DeSantis loosened restrictions on visits to nursing homes, saying increased risk of infection is outweighed by positive mental health benefits of increased social interaction.


Where many of the states are imposing or about to impose stricter public safety, DeSantis is opening up visitation to the nursing homes.
That's going to be a death sentence for many.

Hey Wayne. Remember all those chest pounding neo-con Republicans that bragged about family values? I wonder where they went?


----------



## Wino

Probably learned the hard way they were on the wrong side of history and their chosen leader(s) had no family values - and haven't - long before Trump.


----------



## Johnny b

* 130 Secret Service Officers Are in Quarantine or Have COVID After Trump's Reckless Campaign *
https://www.thedailybeast.com/130-s...-or-have-covid-after-trumps-reckless-campaign

Headline says it all


----------



## Johnny b

* Exclusive: Top official on U.S. election cybersecurity tells associates he expects to be fired *
https://www.reuters.com/article/us-...-he-expects-to-be-fired-sources-idUSKBN27S2YI

Essentially, Christopher Krebs, director of the Department of Homeland Security's Cybersecurity and Infrastructure Security Agency has been told to stop investigating election fraud, by the White House. Obviously Trump.
He has been reporting that the claims of fraud are not valid.

* Report: White House pressuring CISA to stop debunking election nonsense  *
https://arstechnica.com/tech-policy...ing-cisa-to-stop-debunking-election-nonsense/



> *There is no evidence that any voting system deleted or lost votes, changed votes, or was in any way compromised*.


CISA rumor control:
https://www.cisa.gov/rumorcontrol
(worth a look-see)


----------



## Johnny b

Never forget.
Trumpism.

The mentality of Trump:

*Trump tweets 'liberate' Michigan, two other states with Dem governors *
https://www.detroitnews.com/story/n...other-states-democratic-governors/5152037002/


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1251169217531056130









..........................

The mentality and goals of the extremist militia in Michigan:

* Michigan AG details extremist plot to kidnap Gov. Whitmer, including plan to burn Capitol building *
https://www.usatoday.com/story/news...ice-gretchen-whitmer-plot-details/6269455002/

Without an honest election, that could have become the future of the US.
With out the determination to keep the US a free nation that adheres to the Constitution, it's still a possibility.


----------



## 2twenty2

> Joint Statement from Elections Infrastructure Government Coordinating Council & the Election Infrastructure Sector Coordinating Executive Committees
> 
> *"The November 3rd election was the most secure in American history*. Right now, across the country, election officials are reviewing and double checking the entire election process prior to finalizing the result.


https://www.cisa.gov/news/2020/11/1...ture-government-coordinating-council-election


----------



## 2twenty2

*Trump had a very bad Friday in court* with his election cases. They're headed for more action next week

https://www.msn.com/en-ca/news/news...-headed-for-more-action-next-week/ar-BB1b0NvL


----------



## 2twenty2

Trump Says Biden Won, But Only Because the 'Election Was Rigged'

https://www.newsweek.com/trump-says-biden-won-only-because-election-was-rigged-1547551

https://torontosun.com/news/world/t...gged/wcm/ed19f256-019f-4a63-a024-fa2e49198739


----------



## Wino

Trump and his minions tried their best to rig this election but fell way short of succeeding. Stupid and incompetent come to mind.


----------



## Johnny b

Indeed.

I lost count on how many times the RNC, Trump, his wife and even his sister sent me forms to request a mail-in ballot here in Ohio.

What a fraud.
He just didn't win.


----------



## Wino

Thankfully his reign of terror is coming to an end. Hoping his later days end in an orange jump suit w/NYDC in large letters on it's back and his number ID on the front.


----------



## Johnny b

Trump's shill suggests my neighbors to the north, Michigan, simply shut the hell up and embrace the coming deaths that Trump has been offering since last February.

First, the rising infection rate in Michigan:










Like many states, including Ohio where I live, Michigan is experiencing a new wave of infection and common sense measures are needed which the Governor of Michigan proposed.

https://www.clickondetroit.com/heal...ct-under-michigans-new-covid-19-restrictions/

These restrictions are now needed because of Trump's lies, denials and absurd suggestions since the pandemic hit the US.

The shill:

* Trump coronavirus adviser Scott Atlas urges Michigan to 'rise up' against new Covid-19 measures *
https://www.cnn.com/2020/11/15/politics/scott-atlas-coronavirus-michigan/index.html


> "The only way this stops is if people rise up," Atlas said. "You get what you accept. #FreedomMatters #StepUp"


IMO, those look like the words of a domestic terrorist.
All he offers to the public is death.
Domestic terrorist or a promoter of a death cult?
Maybe even both.
Trump does have a entourage steeped heavily in both camps.

Atlas' best interests do not parallel the public's.
What he does for Trump is underwrite and project Trump's authority into a lost election.


----------



## Johnny b

This goes beyond being simply mean spirited, it's a malicious assault on our society and form of government by a loser that's lived a life as a degenerate, morally and ethically.

* President Trump stays mostly out of view after election but is working, taking steps to, in part, poke Biden *
https://www.usatoday.com/story/news...ents-working-white-house-meetings/6324505002/


----------



## Johnny b

The Covid-19 pandemic continues while Trump focuses on gutting the US.



















https://www.usatoday.com/story/news...home-covid-19-cases-all-time-high/6323312002/

Almost half of our society doesn't seem to give a damn what happens.
And denial is often on their dying breaths.

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news...-doering-covid-19-patients-denial/6330791002/

^ The result of the cult, Trumpism.


----------



## Wino

Since my birth on Jan. 1, 1942, this nation has gone thru major turmoil - wars (needed and unneeded), assassination's, cold war, catastrophic natural disasters, pandemics - all horrible, all over come, albeit leaving scars on the national psyche. Of all these, the worse thing this nation has done was electing Donald J. Trump - and we have and will pay dearly for this massive national screw up. The following picture says it all:








To my death bed, I'll never forgive those that allowed this to happen. I care not how well educated, the number of degrees, well read, intelligent, well spoken - if you voted for this POS you are no better than he - scumbag life sucking idiots. And you all can kiss my saggy wrinkled butt.


----------



## Johnny b

Agreed.


----------



## Wino

Trumpism aka republican party is actually nothing more than a death cult.


----------



## Johnny b

Wino said:


> Trumpism aka republican party is actually nothing more than a death cult.


Bizarre as that sounds, that is certainly what has resulted.
The mindless repetition of Trump's false claims. The Covid-19 situation is the most obvious.
Denial of the disease even in the face of death from it.
Positioning the elderly as acceptable collateral damage.
The treatment of Hispanics seeking sanctuary was inhuman.
The idea of cutting out health care during a pandemic, diabolic.
Positioning himself as an emissary of God and with followers actually worshiping him a travesty.

The GOP is now the Party of Trump.
Lies and misrepresentations have become their party platform.
Wild eyed Tea Partiers wanting a return to the late 1700's, Libertarian anarchists wanting all governing removed from society and of course the extreme fundamentalists that worship Trump with out realizing ( edit) or accepting that he's more like the anti-Christ than God's emissary.

Yeah. A death cult.

What other rational explanation could there be for such absurdities?


----------



## Johnny b

* As COVID surges, Americans remain divided on the threat. What will it take to bring them together? *
https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2020/11/19/covid-political-partisanship/6309868002/



> "We thought once they saw more people in their states, their towns and their communities get sick with this, once they started hearing from doctors and nurses and those images started to show up in the local news, that the partisan gap would go away and they would take it more seriously," Van Bavel said. "And if anything, we've seemed to find the opposite."
> .................
> 
> Gadarian's data shows how someone feels about COVID-19 and responds to it is less about where they live, their age or their education and more about their political identity.
> 
> .........................
> 
> But only half of U.S. adults said they would get a vaccine to prevent COVID-19 if it were available today, a drop from 72% in May, according to the Pew Research Center. Experts worry that if trust in a vaccine continues to erode, then there will not be a level of vaccination that produces herd immunity - when enough people build up protection against a pathogen either through natural infection or a vaccine.


----------



## Wino

Read article this morning re ex follower of Jim Jones saying Trumps mouthings sound just like Jones. Get the purple Kool-Aid ready. I wonder how many of the 74 million would actually drink it. I'd guess at least 10-15%.


----------



## Johnny b

I suspect a higher percentage. Hard to quantify, though.

This deal with Trump refusing to allow Biden access to Covid-19 data goes beyond being a stubborn/poor loser.
He's obviously trying to set Biden up for a catastrophic failure that results in even greater deaths.

https://finance.yahoo.com/news/hhs-...biden-record-coronavirus-cases-141351745.html


----------



## Johnny b

* INSANE IN THE MEMBRANE

Here's How Hugo Chavez, Dead Since 2013, Became Responsible for Trump's Election Loss *
https://www.thedailybeast.com/heres...3-became-responsible-for-trumps-election-loss

And if you think that's not crazy enough, Trumpers have been noticed chanting:


> release the kraken





> Conservative pundit and "Intellectual Dark Web" member *Dave Rubin *went further, arguing that Powell and Giuliani can't be lying, because they'd look nuts if it's fake. As a result, Rubin said, the voter fraud claims obviously must be true.


Intellectual? Really?

Even Tucker Carlson seems to have distanced himself from those lunatics.


----------



## Johnny b

Bananas for sale?

* Keilar explains why CNN didn't air Giuliani's 'bananas' briefing *


----------



## Johnny b

As Trump continues to focus on cementing his position as an autocrat, the Covid-19 infections and deaths continue to escalate.

Infections: A new record.










Deaths:


----------



## Johnny b

* Rudy Giuliani suggested someone 'cut the head off' Democrat leaders in Fox News interview *
https://www.usatoday.com/story/news...one-should-cut-head-off-democrats/6361521002/

Looks like Rudy just declared himself a domestic terrorist.


----------



## steppenwolf

https://www.theepochtimes.com/domin...ce-before-pennsylvania-lawmakers_3587425.html

cuban Venezuela commie dominion-cancels-planned-appearance-before-pennsylvania-lawmakers


----------



## steppenwolf

https://www.infowars.com/posts/voting-equipment-found-dumped-on-roadside-in-georgia/

*Voting Equipment Found Dumped On Roadside In Georgia*
Infowars.com
November 20th 2020, 3:56 pm


----------



## steppenwolf

*POTUS: Dominion Voting System "Deleted" 2.7 Million Trump Votes*
https://thenewamerican.com/potus-dominion-voting-system-deleted-2-7-million-trump-votes/


----------



## steppenwolf

https://thespectator.info/2020/11/14/kanyes-michigan-votes-were-stolen-by-joe-biden/

Thousands of Kanye votes *stolen*!

*Votes that were clearly marked for Kanye West were, instead, given to Joe Biden* *in Michigan, witnesses allege. *

Kanye started a low-key run for President over the past year, failing to fulfill the many onerous and restrictive ballot access requirements in many states, including Michigan. Michigan requires independent candidates for President to collect 12,000 petition signatures in order to appear on the ballot, a requirement that Kanye did not meet back in July.

But many still preferred Kanye, and voted for him.


----------



## steppenwolf

Johnny b said:


> * Rudy Giuliani suggested someone 'cut the head off' Democrat leaders in Fox News interview *
> https://www.usatoday.com/story/news...one-should-cut-head-off-democrats/6361521002/
> 
> Looks like Rudy just declared himself a domestic terrorist.


 you really think youre funny


----------



## Johnny b

steppenwolf said:


> you really think youre funny


I can be 

IMHO, you Trumpies are just a bunch of petulant whiners lol!
Biden won.
Trump's a loser.
So far none of the claims by Trump's lawyers have been able to show any fraud in the election.
Irrational claims were made but no evidence of fraud has been presented to the courts.
At one point, Rudy even admitted to a judge that a particular lawsuit wasn't about fraud even though he kept referring to fraud.
Even Fox news is reporting that Trump's lawyers make claims but won't present any evidence.

But it does look like Graham was trying to commit fraud.
Shameful lol!.....

Biden has won in both the popular vote and electoral count.

Your master is a loser.


----------



## Johnny b

steppenwolf said:


> https://thespectator.info/2020/11/14/kanyes-michigan-votes-were-stolen-by-joe-biden/
> 
> Thousands of Kanye votes *stolen*!
> 
> *Votes that were clearly marked for Kanye West were, instead, given to Joe Biden* *in Michigan, witnesses allege. *
> 
> Kanye started a low-key run for President over the past year, failing to fulfill the many onerous and restrictive ballot access requirements in many states, including Michigan. Michigan requires independent candidates for President to collect 12,000 petition signatures in order to appear on the ballot, a requirement that Kanye did not meet back in July.
> 
> But many still preferred Kanye, and voted for him.





> But many still preferred Kanye, and voted for him.












Shocking


----------



## Johnny b

LOL!

https://www.foxnews.com/politics/bidens-electoral-college-victory-same-trumps-2016

* Biden's Electoral College victory projected to be same as Trump's in 2016 *



> Biden is ahead by about 6 million votes.












lol!


----------



## Johnny b

steppenwolf said:


> ..........................
> 
> cuban Venezuela commie dominion-.................


Wow, that was a mouth full.

And you got that where? Epoch Times?
Kinda proves my point about Trumpies being a cult.
It's an extremist far right religious organization that promotes Trumpism.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Epoch_Times


> The Epoch Media Group's news sites and YouTube channels have spread conspiracy theories such as QAnon and anti-vaccination propaganda.


They are known to lie a lot.

steppenwolf....are you a follower or member of the Qanon conspiracy cult?


----------



## Wino

You have to ask ???


----------



## Johnny b

It's laughable, but there are many people believing those nut-job claims.


----------



## Johnny b

Just another fact that Trumpies deny.
Covid-19 exists and is spreading in greater intensity:










Almost 12 million recorded infections ( and note: that's confirmed, not actual which is much greater)
Over a quarter million deaths from Covid-19.

From this alone, Trump should have lost by a landslide.


----------



## Johnny b

According to this CNN article, as the recount progresses, Biden's lead over Trump increases. It's now by more than 6 million votes.

* Biden's margin of victory over Trump surpasses 6 million votes *
https://www.cnn.com/2020/11/20/politics/biden-6-million-votes/index.html

Does Donald have visions of being fitted for jailhouse attire? ( LOL! )
He certainly seems very desperate.


----------



## Johnny b

Not a surprise.

* In scathing ruling, judge dismisses Trump campaign's effort to overturn election results in Pennsylvania *
https://www.usatoday.com/story/news...g-election-pennsylvania-dismissed/6360749002/



> A Pennsylvania federal court on Saturday denied President Donald Trump's request to block certification of the state's 2020 election results in order to give his campaign lawyers time to find evidence to support their claims of a fraudulent election system and improper ballot counting.
> 
> In a scathing ruling, U.S. District Court Judge Matthew Brann criticized the lack of evidence the Trump campaign presented to support its argument to potentially disenfranchise every voter in the commonwealth who cast a ballot in the 2020 elections - nearly 7 million in all.


----------



## Johnny b

This link is for steppenwolf because he probably won't read anything at USAToday 

* Pennsylvania judge throws out Trump lawsuit, clearing way for Biden win *
https://www.foxnews.com/politics/pennsylvania-judge-throws-out-trump-lawsuit-biden-win


----------



## Couriant

steppenwolf said:


> you really think youre funny


you're  



Wino said:


> You have to ask ???


Haha I am waiting for hyperlinks from Parler....   I never click links from Infowars because they have 0 credibility and all they really do is peddle useless stuff in their stores as well as wild unproven conspiracy theories.


----------



## Couriant

I have a serious honest question for all (including @steppenwolf) but do you think Trump would take covid more seriously if one of his kids was dead because of the virus? (since don jr has it now, but looks like he's not affected much)

(and not inc. Tiffany because, well you know... haha)


----------



## Johnny b

Couriant said:


> I have a serious honest question for all (including @steppenwolf) but do you think Trump would take covid more seriously if one of his kids was dead because of the virus? (since don jr has it now, but looks like he's not affected much)
> 
> (and not inc. Tiffany because, well you know... haha)


It should.
But after all the suffering he's imposed on other people, such as the inhuman treatment of Hispanics seeking a better life, his position of supporting abuses of power by the police, his racist 'dog whistles' and comfort among radical militant militias and violent conspiracy groups.........if he felt anything I doubt he'd express it in his pandemic policies.
IMO, he has no soul. He's simply a monster that grew a human body.


----------



## Couriant

It's funny that he wanted the recount and he's more worse than he was the first time lol


----------



## Johnny b

Couriant said:


> you're
> 
> Haha I am waiting for hyperlinks from Parler....   I never click links from Infowars because they have 0 credibility and all they really do is peddle useless stuff in their stores as well as wild unproven conspiracy theories.


I don't know how often Infowars or Prison Planet update their news articles, but I took a quick look and ......nothing about the recent news in Pa..
Not a surprise


----------



## Johnny b

Another court case .
I suspect these will start adding up as Trump exits the Oval Office 

* Trump Appointee Unconstitutionally Interfered With VOA, Judge Rules *
https://www.npr.org/2020/11/21/9374...nally-in-pursuing-bias-claims-u-s-judge-rules



> The chief executive over the Voice of America and its sister networks has acted unconstitutionally in investigating what he claimed was a deep-seated bias against President Trump by his own journalists, a federal judge has ruled.
> 
> Citing the journalists' First Amendment protections, U.S. Judge Beryl Howell on Friday evening ordered U.S. Agency for Global Media CEO Michael Pack to stop interfering in the news service's news coverage and editorial personnel matters. She struck a deep blow at Pack's authority to continue to force the news agency to cover the president more sympathetically.


Trump replaced a lot of department heads with second raters, bootlickers and sycophants in order to push his policies and propaganda.


----------



## Johnny b

The cult of Trump/Qanon keeps getting stranger and stranger.
And obviously more deadly.

This entire article needs to be read, too much to copy and paste.
I suspect this is exactly what Putin and the oligarchs of Russia had in mind when they helped Trump win in 2016. 
The destruction of the once most powerful nation on Earth.
All it took was a crooked real estate developer selling red hats and a fake promise.

* Trump Supporters in Georgia Threaten to Destroy GOP, Boycott Runoff Elections *
https://www.newsweek.com/georgia-trump-supporters-destroy-gop-boycott-senate-runoffs-1549245


----------



## Johnny b

An opinion piece from a mental health expert:

Dr. Bandy X. Lee
( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bandy_X._Lee )

* Transition warning: Trump's mental illness is a growing danger *
https://www.usatoday.com/story/opinion/2020/11/23/trump-mentally-unfit-president-column/6382407002/

We've all seen this exhibited in Trump since January 2017.
Many much longer, that bothered to read or watch the daily national news.


----------



## Wino

You don't have to be a mental genius or mental health expert to know and understand that Trump is batcrap crazy and always has been.


----------



## steppenwolf

Couriant said:


> I have a serious honest question for all (including @steppenwolf) but do you think Trump would take covid more seriously if one of his kids was dead because of the virus? (since don jr has it now, but looks like he's not affected much)
> 
> (and not inc. Tiffany because, well you know... haha)


i dont know and everyone has own opinion regardless of politics maybe..the people that coughed on me deliberately for 30 years i dont think were republicans....i like masks at times and im a germaphobe..trump did seem to have lots of unnecessary rallies and i wouldnt have gone,,i avoid crowds ,,other than the crowds why do you feel he doesnt take the covid seriously?


----------



## steppenwolf

Wino said:


> You don't have to be a mental genius or mental health expert to know and understand that Trump is batcrap crazy and always has been.


oh sure right...he rolls back all the damn wars and hes evil ...really?


----------



## steppenwolf

so whey dont you all discuss the phony "Dominion voting "machines?trump will win


----------



## steppenwolf

I WONDER HOW MaNY PEOPLE GOT SICK AT TRUMP RALLIES -THE RECOVERY RATE IN 99% SOUNDS SCARY


----------



## steppenwolf

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news...navirus-mortality-rate-misleading/3019503001/ i guess the american indians died on the trail of tears from pneumonia,,i feel democrats make people homeless and poorer and many dems are rich flying off to hawii vacations while we are in lockdown

i think ill continue to vote republican


----------



## Johnny b

steppenwolf said:


> .............. im a germaphobe.................


Seriously, how can you be an anti-vaxxer and a germophobe at the same time?


----------



## Johnny b

steppenwolf said:


> oh sure right...he rolls back all the damn wars and hes evil ...really?


He's evil. That's been chronicled here as well as almost everywhere but Trumptopia ( lol )


----------



## Johnny b

steppenwolf said:


> https://forums.techguy.org/threads/sign-of-the-times.938845/page-402


What's your point? ( LOL )


----------



## Johnny b

steppenwolf said:


> I WONDER HOW MaNY PEOPLE GOT SICK AT TRUMP RALLIES -THE RECOVERY RATE IN 99% SOUNDS SCARY


Your caps lock is on.

Why are you so intent on justifying the killing off the elderly?


----------



## Johnny b

steppenwolf said:


> https://www.usatoday.com/story/news...navirus-mortality-rate-misleading/3019503001/ i guess the american indians died on the trail of tears from pneumonia,,i feel democrats make people homeless and poorer and many dems are rich flying off to hawii vacations while we are in lockdown
> 
> i think ill continue to vote republican


Posting non-sense like that is merely the denial of reality.

As far as voting 'republican', why? You don't support the concept. You are a supporter of Trump, who is obvious fascist by nature and a malevolent opportunist.
He's sworn to bury those Republicans that no longer support his efforts to steal the election.

What 'republican' party? It's now the Party of Trump.


----------



## Wino

Just because you think they're out to get us oldies doesn't mean they're not !


----------



## Johnny b

steppenwolf said:


> so whey dont you all discuss the phony "Dominion voting "machines?trump will win


Darn....I missed this one (  )

There's nothing to discuss.
( Wow...that was easy )

Trump has lost. It's all over but the whining......and the laughter


----------



## Johnny b

steppenwolf said:


> I WONDER HOW MaNY PEOPLE GOT SICK AT TRUMP RALLIES -THE RECOVERY RATE IN 99% SOUNDS SCARY


The art of denial^^
Time for some graphs.

https://coronavirus.jhu.edu/map.html

Daily Infections:










Daily Deaths:










With the current running total amounting to 260,000+ deaths , claiming only 1% is insignificant does sound like the mentality of a death cult.
Add in the as yet unknown number that are left with life altering persisting symptoms, it further becomes an intolerable acceptance.


----------



## Couriant

steppenwolf said:


> I WONDER HOW MaNY PEOPLE GOT SICK AT TRUMP RALLIES -THE RECOVERY RATE IN 99% SOUNDS SCARY


A study shows at least 900 people died from covid that was linked to trump rallies. Don't forget Herman Cain had also died from it.

That is 900 preventable deaths because the orangutan in chief did not take it seriously.


----------



## Johnny b

It is a rather an amazing comparison.

Trumpites consider faking the vote count is more valuable than human life


----------



## Johnny b

Time for a little humor lol.

*Trump's staffers are reportedly now avoiding him to stay out of legal jeopardy *
https://news.yahoo.com/trumps-staffers-reportedly-now-avoiding-083411740.html



> "Usually everybody's looking for an opportunity to go in. Now it's the opposite," said an administration official. "You never know where there's going to be this moment where he's like, well why don't you do X-Y-Z crazy thing."


Yep, that sounds just like the Donald.


----------



## Johnny b

Now for something not funny.

* Trump order could spark mass firings of civil servants, lawmakers warn *
https://news.yahoo.com/trump-order-could-spark-mass-215618309.html

Yep, that sounds just like the Donald, too. 
Doing the 'crazy X-Y-Z thing'.


----------



## Johnny b

It's been reported several days ago that a military strike against Iran has been on Trump's mind.

This pops up and it's something to be concerned about:

* Scoop: Israeli military prepares for possibility Trump will strike Iran *
https://www.axios.com/israeli-military-prepares-trump-iran-0d0a5725-c410-4f5c-a0ea-9c6f9add4966.html


----------



## Wino

As long as Trump is president he is a clear and present danger to himself, USA and the world. I've never expected he would go quietly into the night.


----------



## Johnny b

Wino said:


> As long as Trump is president he is a clear and present danger to himself, USA and the world. I've never expected he would go quietly into the night.


Then this would come as no surprise.
It didn't for me.

The appearance of one of Trump's henchmen deliberately trying to wreck the economy as Biden takes office.

* Treasury's move to cut off Fed emergency aid program a 'Salt the earth political strategy': Fmr. TARP Special Inspector General *
https://finance.yahoo.com/video/treasury-move-cut-off-fed-185133306.html

In my youth, Republicans were pro-business.
The concept of 'conservatism' involved pragmatism, common sense and resisting change just for the sake of change.

Now they're more like a bunch of fascist Russian oligarch lovers operating through cults like Qanon and white supremacist/nationalist groups associated with militias.
And their numbers are large.


----------



## Wino

Not that Trump reads or pays much attention to PDB's or intelligence reports, I hope on Jan. 20, 2021 at noon he loses his security clearance access to all government data. He is so undeserving of having this available. May just as well give to Putie.


----------



## Tabvla

I have been away for awhile enjoying the natural beauty, incredible food (and wine) and the always welcoming people of Catalonia.

Now that I am back, I am pleased to note that my good friends Wino and Johnny_b still have their views firmly embedded within reality. However, it troubles me to see that there are still those who are captured by the chains of conspiracy and fantasy.

As the Trump era draws painfully to a close one can sense a worldwide sigh of relief that the nightmare will soon be over and that we will wake to a new day with a ray of sunshine to brighten the morning of the 21st.

But at the time of this writing, nothing is certain. In a press briefing on Thursday 26th, Trump said... "...._ a lot is going to happen between now and the 20th_....". That is a chilling reminder to all of us that this catastrophic era is still unfolding and that the only certainty is that it is not over yet.

The Constitution is being challenged like never before..... let us hope it can withstand this onslaught.

T.


----------



## Johnny b

Good to see you back, Tabvla.

You certainly started a thread with a lot of interest


----------



## Johnny b

The nightmare with Trump continues:

* 
Make America incompetent again? Trump wants to ruin our merit-based federal jobs system.
*
https://www.usatoday.com/story/opin...ce-bring-back-incompetence-column/6347462002/

MAGA?
How can anyone, sane that is, ever think Trump had the best interests of our society in mind with all the devastation he's created .......and now this he appears to be planning?


----------



## Tabvla

I am concerned, worried, perplexed.... and probably also somewhat confused by the apparent gullibility of those who one would assume are educated, reasonably intelligent, knowledgeable and possibly well versed in the ways of the world.

The same species who are capable of achieving amazing things in technology, medicine, engineering.... that same species readily believe, accept and defend the realms of absolute fantasy, with no basis in reality.

Possibly the most important and outstanding aspect of human intelligence is the ability to question. It is this ability to question, that which is presented to us, that has enabled humans to transcend the constraints placed upon other species. The search for facts, for proof, for truth is unique to humans.

We must ask the question.... "_how is it possible that so many blindly follow the Pied Piper without question?_".

T.


----------



## Johnny b

> "_how is it possible that so many blindly follow the Pied Piper without question?_".


IMO, the short answer:

Trump, the pied piper aka malevolent opportunist, merely appealed to those we see following him, with arguments that paralleled their own positions.
That would be inclusive of but not limited to:
Fascism
Racism
White entitlement
Anti democracy (supportive of authoritarianism )
Rejection of scientific expertise
Rejection of higher education
Embracing religious fanaticism ( such as: the King Cyrus syndrome )
And of course, general nut job conspiracy theories.

(Short answer? lol! )
All wrapped up, neat and tidy, under the concept of BS Receptivity.

Trump is definitely scary. His followers much worse, imo. 
Trump wants the power.
His followers want the results.


----------



## Wino

Tis truly an enigma that slaps reality in the face. Alternate facts along with parallel universe. If there were a god, even she couldn't sort this out and would wonder how she managed to screw up so badly with a portion of her creations. Thus Covid-19 to thin the herd - unfortunately, CV19 not selective. Would be wonderful if it only affected the stupid believers of the human turd Trump. Trumpers and Anti-Vaxers are a bane on the world.
Jan. 20, 2021 can't arrive soon enough. Rushing time is not a normal thing for an old man.


----------



## Johnny b

Wino said:


> .............................
> 
> ........................... Rushing time is not a normal thing for an old man.


Understood!

The 2016 election feels a long way back in time but the collective abuses by Trump in his 4 years of service seem so recent, always present, never ending.

I wish I could be around in, say, 50 years from now to read what historians have to write about this period and what followed.


----------



## Wino

I'm fairly confident you already know the answers.


----------



## Johnny b

Wino said:


> I'm fairly confident you already know the answers.


Yeah.
All those problems I noted in post 2153 are going to be with us a lot longer than Trump, himself.


----------



## Wino

Yes, long after you and I are dirt or ashes.


----------



## Tabvla

On a positive note......

With all the time that the President is spending honing his golf skills, come Jan 21st he might decide to turn professional and join the circuit..... one can imagine some of the discourse..... "_No, no, no, my ball did not land in the rough, I struck a hole-in-one, the third one that I have hit today_". ..... or perhaps ....."_My opponent is a fraud, his golf card is a fake, I won this game easy, by a big margin, my score is 10 under par, his is 10 over par_". .... or perhaps.... "_I did not kick the ball with my foot, CNN has modified the video, that is not my foot_".....

It would be good to see him losing for a second time in Augusta, Georgia.....

T.


----------



## Johnny b

And this comes as a surprise?

* Court documents: DOJ reviewing 'secret' pardon for money scheme targeting White House officials *
https://www.usatoday.com/story/news...ney-scheme-targeting-wh-officials/3788340001/



> The disclosure, first reported by CNN, comes as President Donald Trump has been weighing possible pardons for associates, some of whom were swept up in the two-year investigation into Russia's interference in the 2016 election.
> 
> ....................
> 
> On Tuesday, the judge granted the government's request, indicating that the information was not protected by any attorney-client privilege.
> 
> The Justice Department did not immediately respond to requests for comment. The White House declined to comment.


Well, well, well!

A little more detail:
https://www.cnn.com/2020/12/01/politics/presidential-pardon-justice-department/index.html


----------



## Wino

I'm shocked!!! I tell you!! Shocked!!!!!!🤪😤


----------



## Johnny b

The headlines keep pouring in 

* Trump associates, including Giuliani, are asking for pardons *
https://www.cnn.com/2020/12/01/politics/trump-rudy-giuliani-pardons/index.html

( hello dots, connect what, what was that again?  )



> President Donald Trump's associates are making appeals to him in the hopes of obtaining pardons before he leaves office, a source familiar with the matter told CNN on Tuesday.
> The source said the list of associates broaching the subject of preemptive pardons that would seek to shield those individuals from prosecution includes Rudy Giuliani, who has been leading the President's longshot legal battles to overturn the results of the 2020 presidential election in his role as Trump's personal attorney.


Of course, Rudy denies everything


----------



## Johnny b

Trump pits the funding of National Defense against the concept of 'free speech'.

Section 230:
https://www.eff.org/issues/cda230


> *"No provider or user of an interactive computer service shall be treated as the publisher or speaker of any information provided by another information content provider" *(47 U.S.C. § 230).
> 
> In other words, online intermediaries that host or republish speech are protected against a range of laws that might otherwise be used to hold them legally responsible for what others say and do. The protected intermediaries include not only regular Internet Service Providers (ISPs), but also a range of "interactive computer service providers," including basically any online service that publishes third-party content. Though there are important exceptions for certain criminal and intellectual property-based claims, CDA 230 creates a broad protection that has allowed innovation and free speech online to flourish.


Let's not be so naive as to think it's about the Russian/NorthKorean element disrupting our society. 
From the pov of the Trump universe, it concerns stopping the 'Fake News' about Trump such as his attempts to steal the election to the current scandal of pardons for sale.

So here it comes:

* Trump threatens to veto defense bill over social media rule *
https://www.politico.com/news/2020/12/01/trump-threatens-veto-defense-bill-social-media-442115

Translation: 'I'm going to tell my lies and stop you from exposing me....and it'll all be legal. 
And if you don't go along with my demands, you are putting National Defense at risk.'
(Like-----> it's all your fault.)

( Rudy smiles, Putin smiles )


----------



## Johnny b

Time for some 'dark humor' 

Lou Dobbs on Wm Barr..............

https://www.cnn.com/2020/12/02/media/bill-barr-right-wing-media-reliable-sources/index.html



> Fox Business host Lou Dobbs, whose conspiratorial program is a favorite of the president, attacked Barr in brutal terms on his show. "For the attorney general of the United States to make that statement - he is either a liar or a fool or both," Dobbs said. Dobbs then went further, suggesting Barr was "perhaps compromised." He characterized Barr as having "appeared to join in with the radical Dems and the deep-state and the resistance."


LOL.
When Trumpies disagree, they eat their own.



> The Gateway Pundit, a fringe website which Trump has repeatedly promoted, published a post that said Barr had revealed himself as "totally deaf, dumb and blind." The post went on to say that Barr's "masquerade as someone opposed to the criminality of the Deep State" had been "exposed as a venal lie" and that he was a "fraud." It concluded, "You either fix the damn corrupt system or we will abandon you...Our days of tolerating betrayal are over."




LOL!


----------



## Johnny b

When Trumpies disagree, they 'eat their own'.
And worse.
Much worse.

* 'Someone's going to get killed': GOP election official in Georgia blames President Trump for fostering violent threats *
https://www.washingtonpost.com/poli...d5c962-3427-11eb-b59c-adb7153d10c2_story.html

Too much to copy and paste.
Essentially, Trump and his followers are using death threats as intimidation against fellow Republican election officials in Georgia, that won't alter election returns in favor of Trump.
Terms like 'enemy of the people' are being used.

https://www.cbs46.com/news/trump-ca...cle_917de492-30c5-11eb-a89b-6f888a101160.html


> ( edit: Trump)
> "But I understand the Secretary of State, who is really, really an enemy of the people. The Secretary of State, whether he's Republican or not, this man, what he's done," Trump said. "Supposedly he made a deal where she's allowed to harvest but in other areas they're not allowed. What kind of a deal is that? They're not allowed to harvest during a presidential election."
> 
> The state of Georgia has no deal with Abrams and neither Trump nor his campaign have provided any evidence to support claims like this.


That is our future with fascism.


----------



## Johnny b

How to destroy the greatest and most powerful nation on Earth.

Interesting article here, rather obvious since Trump entered the Oval Office and sat behind the Presidential desk.

* Trump is leaving Biden a broken government *
https://finance.yahoo.com/news/trump-is-leaving-biden-a-broken-government-180510360.html

Not only a broken government. Not just a broken society dealing with a pandemic he denied existed........A growing list of pardoned criminals walking about freely.

M A G A has become the Trumpian welcoming mat for entering third world status


----------



## Johnny b

* Trump Organization, Kushner Companies benefited from pandemic relief loans: report *
https://thehill.com/homenews/news/5...ompanies-benefited-from-pandemic-relief-loans


----------



## 2twenty2

_*Trump delivers 46-minute diatribe denying his election loss*_
🇺🇸U.S. president recycles misinformation, unsubstantiated allegations in video on social media
https://www.cbc.ca/news/trump-rant-biden-1.5826116


----------



## Johnny b

While this is an opinion piece, it's a reasonable question:

* When he leaves office, can ex-President Trump be trusted with America's national security secrets? *
https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/na...ce-can-ex-president-trump-be-trusted-n1248994

Too much to copy and paste.
This stands out:



> With Trump's real estate empire under financial pressure and his brand suffering, they worry he will see American secrets as a profit center.
> 
> "He's shown as president that he doesn't take secret-keeping terribly seriously," Goldsmith said in an interview. "He has a known tendency to disrespect rules related to national security. And he has a known tendency to like to sell things that are valuable to him."


And I'd add he'd like to further wreck the US under a Democrat President. 

So, imo....no to any briefings after he leaves office.


----------



## Wino

He should be totally cut from any intelligence data - totally lose any and all clearances - removed from list. I can't even conceive anyone in government (outside of his acolytes) asking him for advice on any subject matter, domestic or foreign or science. Prison is where he needs to end up. A walking, talking overbearing overweight piece of human excrement and a traitor to this nation.


----------



## Tabvla

Today, December 3rd 2020. US COVID Statistics in past 24 hours. 3,157 deaths. 210,000+ infections.

And the trusted, truthful, reliable and benevolent leader of our great nation, when he is not playing golf, is promoting social discord and inciting us to hate each with dustbin speeches.

The day of reckoning is coming and I believe it is January 21st 2021.

T.


----------



## Johnny b

LOL!
I am shocked, simply shocked beyond belief 

*Trump's pre-emptive pardons indicate that crimes have been committed, says Rutgers Law professor *
https://finance.yahoo.com/news/trum...ted-says-rutgers-law-professor-221449904.html



> "If he pardons people pre-emptively, he's, essentially, telling the public that these people have committed crimes," Rutger Law professor Stacy Hawkins told Yahoo Finance Live. "We may not be aware of what they are, but the pardon is clear evidence that crimes have been committed."


A published list will obviously be entertaining.


----------



## Johnny b

Looks like treason is in the wind.
And it's coming out of the State I live in.

The Tea Party:

* Trump backers, including Flynn, edge toward a call to 'suspend' Constitution to head off Biden taking office *
https://news.yahoo.com/trump-backer...o-head-off-biden-taking-office-015446889.html

The backers:

Tom Zawistowski, [email protected]
https://wethepeopleconvention.org/articles/WTPC-Urges-Limited-Martial-Law

Read this:
https://www.dropbox.com/s/fn6epl0izsp2jrl/WeThePeople_Final.jpg?dl=0


----------



## Johnny b

* Michael Flynn calls for Trump to suspend the constitution and declare martial law to re-run election *
https://news.yahoo.com/michael-flynn-calls-trump-suspend-005751736.html

This isn't going to end well.
I'm done.


----------



## Wino

Seems begotten Serbian war "hero" Scott O'Grady, Trump nominee for Pentagon has same thoughts:

https://www.cnn.com/2020/12/04/politics/trump-nominee-pentagon-martial-law/index.html

Makes me wonder if worshipping Trump requires people to profess insanity or just they're just naturally stupid?


----------



## Wino

I hope Trump does as much damage to Georgia today as Sherman did in his days.


----------



## Tabvla

Should we be worried.....?

What is all this talk about imposing "Martial Law", "Suspending the Constitution" and declaring Trump the winner of the election.

The Constitution specifies that the Commander in Chief has the authority to impose Martial Law without recourse to Congress. The President also has the authority to suspend the Constitution "..... _when a rebellion endangers the public safety_.....".

I ask the question again..... should we be worried....?

T.


----------



## Johnny b

Concerned.....Yes.


----------



## Wino

Very concerned - we have a cornered crook and rat here desperate to hold on to power so he can stay out of prison for a few more years. He is capable of anything, catastrophically speaking.


----------



## Johnny b

Wino said:


> Very concerned - we have a cornered crook and rat here desperate to hold on to power so he can stay out of prison for a few more years. He is capable of anything, catastrophically speaking.


Unfortunately here are others, Wayne.
They don't wield the intense power of the presidency, but are outwardly more explicit in what they want to do.
And I suspect much more violent on a personal level.

Tea Party for one.
Qanon another.
Militias.
And some libertarians.

The Republican party of today seems to be made up of a lot of groups that don't appear to support their patriotic rhetoric when it becomes a disadvantage to their goals.

It's of note to see and hear those that claim to support the Constitution the greatest, reverse their arguments and claim the need to suspend it.

Treason?
That's what it would have been called just a few years ago. By the same people.


----------



## Tabvla

*Survey by the Washington Post.....*

"......._.Only 27 of 249 Republicans in Congress are willing to admit Joe Biden won the presidential election, a survey found on Saturday.._......"

Surely there are more than 27 intelligent Republicans in Congress....?

T.


----------



## Wino

You think that's bad - read the following - it's scary.

https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/a...y-serious-coup-attempt/617309/?utm_source=msn


----------



## Johnny b

LOL!

Intelligent + politician.........


----------



## Wino

Oxymoron !


----------



## Johnny b

It's getting tiring constantly reading in the news about the treasonous intent of some Trump supporters.

This one is about the flag waving/chest beating sociopaths of Arizona.

*The Arizona GOP asks supporters if they're willing to die to overturn Trump's election loss *
https://www.businessinsider.com/ari...upporters-would-die-overturn-election-2020-12

Hard to believe there was a time I considered retiring to Arizona. 

Rather than killing themselves for a fascist loon, wouldn't it be better to choose a real Republican in the next primary?
Rather than a malevolent opportunist, that doesn't care whether we live or die?

I wonder how many are still around?


----------



## Tabvla

".....denied...." _US Supreme Court_

There are times when the English language has some beautiful words....

T.


----------



## Johnny b

Tabvla said:


> ".....denied...." _US Supreme Court_
> 
> There are times when the English language has some beautiful words....
> 
> T.


Agreed.....:up:

But there is a 'dark side' behind it.
While imploring the letter of the law be upheld, there is also the appearance of Trump advocates organizing an overthrow of that authority.

Hannity of Fox news is one such example and he has a large audience.

This popped up this morning:

* Hannity: Texas election challenge lawsuit 'could be a game-changer' at Supreme Court *
https://www.foxnews.com/media/hannity-texas-election-lawsuit-potential-game-changer

Follow his logic/propaganda:



> Hannity said he hopes the court will consider the case, because "The American people deserve answers."
> 
> "The country deserves it. You deserve it," Hannity argued. "We, the people, deserve it. I don't know what the justices are going to do, but the American people deserve answers.


What is it we 'deserve'?
Short answer, Truth.
So far, the courts haven't been shown any evidence of fraud or malfeasance in the election.
Only claims, evidence not just lacking, so far non existent.
That's 'Truth'.

So how do we, the American people ( voters ), respond? To the 'Truth'?
Hannity just called for 'answers' no matter what the courts decide.
Now it becomes that time honored tactic of sophistry.
There were alternate 'facts' since the start of the Trump administration.
Are we now to believe there are alternate 'Truths'?
With these 'alternate Truths', if the courts won't upheld decisions made using them, what are Hannity's followers to do?

Further:



> We need to have confidence in both the integrity and the results of every state's election, in the process, because ...........................................


And how do we, the voter, achieve confidence?
The courts make decisions we don't like. For Republicans, Democrats, Independents and all the subversive groups like the Tea Party, Qanon and even Antifa.

Hannity is inferring to challenge judicial outcomes he doesn't like as a Trump supporter.

And here comes the 'lie'. A statement of 'fact' that goes with out evidence.
A statement the courts have rejected.



> ......we have millions of innocent Americans in states where the law, the Constitution were not followed.


This is of the same mentality of those that want to temporarily void the Constitution, invoke military control and oversee a new election.
( I posted to that issue recently)



> They are, then, disenfranchised in a corrupt process."


With that mentality, we risk being forced to do the 'Sieg Heil' fist pump along with a new president for life 

And Carlson would probably angrily respond that 'white supremacy' has nothing to do with it, they aren't the problem so ignore them.


----------



## Johnny b

Now the Texas lawsuit is starting to make sense.

* GOP Senator Ben Sasse Suggests Texas AG Looking for Trump Pardon With SCOTUS Lawsuit *
https://www.newsweek.com/gop-senato...g-looking-trump-pardon-scotus-lawsuit-1553932

And Sasse is a Republican.


----------



## Wino

The Texas / Paxton lawsuit will never make sense. Paxton is under indictment by state. Federal charges were dropped. However, recent happenings and latest FBI investigation is federal, but different from his fraud indictment by state. The man should be in prison, rather than being reelected AG. Would say "only in Texas", but seems Ohio and others have similar problems with it's elected officials.


----------



## Johnny b

Wino said:


> The Texas / Paxton lawsuit will never make sense. Paxton is under indictment by state. Federal charges were dropped. However, recent happenings and latest FBI investigation is federal, but different from his fraud indictment by state. The man should be in prison, rather than being reelected AG. Would say "only in Texas", but seems Ohio and others have similar problems with it's elected officials.


Yeah, Ohio's AG Yost is obviously a Trumpie minion.

I suspect one of the real issues is over fracking.
Eastern Ohio has a lot of new wealth from it and Biden doesn't favor it as an energy source. 
As a generality, the Tea party seems especially strong in those counties.


----------



## Johnny b

BTW....... corruption seems to make 'sense' of what the Trump movement has been up to.
Can't blame it on good will.


----------



## Wino

Time Magazine choice for "Person(s) of the Year" probably has chapped an already chapped butt (since I doubt he can reach well enough to wipe). A legend in his own mind. Trump and Texas becoming laughing stock for the world.


----------



## Wino

SCOTUS 7-2 throws Texas Paxton/Trump BS. Alito and Thomas two traitors to Constitution if what I hear is true.


----------



## Johnny b

Wino said:


> SCOTUS 7-2 throws Texas Paxton/Trump BS. Alito and Thomas two traitors to Constitution if what I hear is true.


https://www.texastribune.org/2020/12/11/texas-lawsuit-supreme-court-election-results/



> Justices Samuel Alito and Clarence Thomas indicated they would have allowed Texas to bring the case but said they would "not grant other relief." None of Trump's appointees indicated they saw any merit in the lawsuit.


----------



## Johnny b

This is an 'Opinion' article.
An interesting list of politicians that were involved in trying to subvert the 2020 Presidential election:

* These Republicans may not be capable of shame, but you should know who they are *
https://www.washingtonpost.com/opin...e-capable-shame-you-should-know-who-they-are/

No doubt there are many missing, I don't see Ohio's AG Yost on the list.


----------



## Johnny b

If it weren't so serious, it would be funny.

Now Trump is ragging on the Court he stacked 

* 'No Wisdom, No Courage!': Trump lashes out at the Supreme Court after it rejected a Texas bid to overturn the election results *
https://www.businessinsider.com/tru...r-rejection-of-texas-election-lawsuit-2020-12

I assume the next argument will be that the Supreme Court is in on 'The' conspiracy ( what ever the hell it is at the moment )

Mr Trump.....would you like some cheese with the whine? 
( Loser )


----------



## Tabvla

"*The Emperor Has No Clothes*"
Anderson 1837

T.


----------



## Tabvla

It is my intention to close this thread at 1 minute past Noon (Eastern Time) on January 20.

In the interim, to conclude this Thread, I invite all who have contributed to this discussion., over the past 4 years, to provide an honest evaluation of "the Good, the Bad and the Ugly" (akn Luciano Vincenzoni) of this sometimes interesting; sometimes confusing; sometimes crazy period in our history.

And I thank you in advance for sharing your thoughts.

T.


----------



## Johnny b

Tabvla said:


> It is my intention to close this thread at 1 minute past Noon (Eastern Time) on January 20.
> 
> In the interim, to conclude this Thread, I invite all who have contributed to this discussion., over the past 4 years, to provide an honest evaluation of "the Good, the Bad and the Ugly" (akn Luciano Vincenzoni) of this sometimes interesting; sometimes confusing; sometimes crazy period in our history.
> 
> And I thank you in advance for sharing your thoughts.
> 
> T.


You are welcome.

Generally, the thread starter does not own the thread.
In the past, an active thread usually stays open unless there is a disruption.

I suspect there may be a lot to discuss/debate or just complain about concerning Trump and his attempt to become a dictator.
If so, I will request the thread stay open.


----------



## Couriant

I thought it was a joke to allow Trump to run for office because he has no experience at all in anything; diplomacy; humility; empathy; you name it. I didn't think it would have come as far as it has, and no doubt it will continue. His continual pointing fingers to deflect away from him is second to none, and the debate was probably the biggest nail in his coffin.

I am really sad that approx. 70mil thinks he didn't do anything wrong and this presidency is the worse and will be a continual stain to the country for a very long time...


----------



## Johnny b

I don't understand his popularity either.


----------



## Wino

This administration was doomed from the gitgo. Had he won another term, this nation would cease to exist as a democratic republic - and it still may not. He was and is a tinpot wannabe dictator and the most ignorant person to have ever sat in the oval office as POTUS. He made the USA the laughing stock of the world and destroyed our standing in the world for generations to come.


----------



## Johnny b

Wino said:


> This administration was doomed from the gitgo. Had he won another term, this nation would cease to exist as a democratic republic - and it still may not....................
> 
> .................


This could be a serious problem if it isn't corrected immediately.....and I doubt that will happen.

Trump's Qanon lawyer Sydney Powell has made this message to Trump public:

https://www.thetelegraph.com/news/article/Tweet-encourages-coup-by-Trump-supporters-15795943.php



> Dear Mr. President, We will not stand by and watch Foreign and Domestic enemies further destroy our Constitutional Republic. Eighty and more million of us request that you use the Insurrection Act, Suspend the December Electoral College Vote, and set up Military Tribunals immediately, to properly investigate and resolve the cyber warfare 11-3-20 issue. Further, we request you suspend the Jan 6 GA Runoff Race, and the January Inauguration until this issue is resolved. Respectfully, We The People.


This is sedition. 
https://criminal.findlaw.com/criminal-charges/sedition.html
Powell and all involved should be immediately arrested on sedition charges.


----------



## Johnny b

Wow.....It appears Trump may be considering having the Georgia Republican Governor and 
Secretary of State arrested because they wouldn't overturn the election results in Georgia.

* Trump retweets call to jail Georgia governor and secretary of state *
https://news.yahoo.com/trump-lin-wood-retweet-georgia-kemp-going-to-jail-164005473.html

This may be a hint to why Barr resigned as AG .....and it's thought Pence may be trying to fade out of an ugly scene about to occur.


----------



## Johnny b

* Mike Pence to confirm Biden then leave the country, says report *

https://news.yahoo.com/mike-pence-confirm-biden-then-140043658.html


----------



## Johnny b

With the Russians electronically attacking our defense and economic infrastructure,
a Trumpist, the acting Defense Secretary, ordered a "Pentagon-wide halt to cooperation" with President-elect Joe Biden's transition" .....as Trump ignores almost everything around himself with the obvious exception -----> a means to install himself as the 46th President of the US.

* Pentagon officials reportedly 'stunned' as acting Defense secretary halts Biden transition briefings *
https://news.yahoo.com/pentagon-officials-reportedly-stunned-acting-165434546.html

Trump is putting our national defense at risk during an attempt to seal a power grab.

Putin smiles.


----------



## Johnny b

Insanity.

* Trump floats naming Sidney Powell as special counsel on election; asks Flynn about martial law, reports say *
https://www.usatoday.com/story/news...-counsel-michael-flynn-matial-law/3978054001/


----------



## steppenwolf

im sad 69 million voters can vote for obama or biden after they destroyed Libya and other places and grinned and didnt save the guys at Benghazi


----------



## steppenwolf

Wino said:


> This administration was doomed from the gitgo. Had he won another term, this nation would cease to exist as a democratic republic - and it still may not. He was and is a tinpot wannabe dictator and the most ignorant person to have ever sat in the oval office as POTUS. He made the USA the laughing stock of the world and destroyed our standing in the world for generations to come.


how are the rigged voting machines democratic?


----------



## Johnny b

steppenwolf said:


> im sad 69 million voters can vote for obama or biden after they destroyed Libya and other places and grinned and didnt save the guys at Benghazi


Yes, you are certainly sad.

The choice for Biden was easy.

1. He wasn't trying to kill us.

2. He wasn't arguing he wanted a 3rd term as President.

3. He wasn't implying he was to be the first President/dictator for life.

4. He didn't claim he was an emissary of God.

5. He's not insane.

6. And he wasn't trying to kill us.

Does that help?


----------



## Johnny b

steppenwolf said:


> how are the rigged voting machines democratic?


I told you reality was unsettling you.
Just look at how you've been reacting to Trump's loss.
That is sad.

All you have left in support of Trump are seditionists, criminals, cultists, illegal militias, Tea Party members, Libertarian Anarchists and Trumpist Rinos wearing MAGA red hats doing Sieg Heil fist pumps as they salute king Donnie.

( Blink! )


----------



## Johnny b

I was just looking at the Johns Hopkins Covid Map to see how well the Trump administration was handling the pandemic.
The denials obviously have allowed more to die.
The crazy medical solutions with bleach, Lysol and UV light bulbs obviously weren't helpful and using a voodoo witch-doctor as a medical authority was....well....insane.

This morning in the US:
https://coronavirus.jhu.edu/map.html

17,659,275 infected.
316,202 dead

The argument that it's only 1% mortality, comes out to a projected 3,250,000+ deaths.
The Trumpers argued this was acceptable.

Why would anyone have voted to be dead? (rhetorical question  )


----------



## Johnny b

It appears Rudy Giuliani is under Federal investigation. Again.
The focus: probably his own business dealings in the Ukraine.
There is mention of Parnas and Fruman, the pair served with campaign finance charges.

* Report: Federal prosecutors have discussed obtaining Rudy Giuliani's emails *
https://news.yahoo.com/report-federal-prosecutors-discussed-obtaining-042300283.html



> _The New York Times_ reported that Trump has talked with advisers about granting Giuliani a preemptive pardon.


And you don't get pardoned for being innocent


----------



## Tabvla

Fellow forum members may have noted that in Post #2,149 I wrote.... "..... _However, it troubles me to see that there are still those who are captured by the chains of conspiracy and fantasy_....."

I have always been a passionate advocate of the right that we are all entitled to our personal (and hopefully private) beliefs, opinions and cultural customs, no matter how devoid of reality those beliefs, opinions and customs might be. It is after all your mind, your thoughts, perhaps your comfort zone..... who am I to question that which you hold close to your heart.

But when those private beliefs, opinions and customs become public then it is incumbent upon all of us to ensure without hesitation that what we are putting in the public domain is the truth even if that truth is contrary to our closely held views. Truth matters. Integrity matters. Honesty matters.

To attempt to mislead others with untruths shows no respect for the integrity of those who you are misleading. But to believe your own untruths shows no self-respect. And if you have no self-respect how can you ask others to respect you?

T.


----------



## Johnny b

Nothing really new, but it is interesting.

* Prosecutors have "mounting amount of evidence" against Trump, Michael Cohen says
*
https://www.cbsnews.com/news/trump-michael-cohen-prosecutors-evidence/



> "It has to do with his finances, it has to do with his tax returns, it has to do with his properties, it has to do with the personal financial statements that he had made and provided in order to obtain loans," Cohen said on CBSN Thursday.
> 
> A number of investigations could cause legal trouble for Mr. Trump after he leaves office in January, including potential congressional inquiries as well as probes by the attorneys general of New York and Washington, D.C. and the Manhattan district attorney.


According to this link
https://www.acslaw.org/expertforum/russian-indictment-and-extradition/
There is no extradition treaty with Russia.

I wonder if Trump has bought his flight ticket yet?


----------



## Wino

Laughing at news this morning. Seems all are determined to be on an up note and doing their best to avoid mention the dire straits this nation is in due to the current despot we have for POTUS for the Xmas morning. They really need to be telling truth than happy BS. Bah Humbug !!
As a disclaimer - I'm on antenna, so network news, no cable.


----------



## steppenwolf

Johnny b said:


> I told you reality was unsettling you.
> Just look at how you've been reacting to Trump's loss.
> That is sad.
> 
> All you have left in support of Trump are seditionists, criminals, cultists, illegal militias, Tea Party members, Libertarian Anarchists and Trumpist Rinos wearing MAGA red hats doing Sieg Heil fist pumps as they salute king Donnie.
> 
> ( Blink! )


he didnt lose he got enough legal votes but a few corrupt counties have engaged in massive vote fraud

he will stay in i think


----------



## steppenwolf

i dont know why you dems are such biden fans

he cut women off welfare in the 90s and he and kamala locked up people mostly blacks that were innocent or proven innocent later

i dont see why youre such fans of these bottom feeders and as for trump i cant say hes my first choice but hes not that bad

just my opinion


----------



## steppenwolf

Johnny b said:


> With the Russians electronically attacking our defense and economic infrastructure,
> a Trumpist, the acting Defense Secretary, ordered a "Pentagon-wide halt to cooperation" with President-elect Joe Biden's transition" .....as Trump ignores almost everything around himself with the obvious exception -----> a means to install himself as the 46th President of the US.
> 
> * Pentagon officials reportedly 'stunned' as acting Defense secretary halts Biden transition briefings *
> https://news.yahoo.com/pentagon-officials-reportedly-stunned-acting-165434546.html
> 
> Trump is putting our national defense at risk during an attempt to seal a power grab.
> 
> Putin smiles.


??but the chinese dont do evil?

free the chinese muslims!!


----------



## steppenwolf

russia is mainly christian with freedom for millions of muslms and jews there

why do americans keep hating russia?


----------



## Johnny b

steppenwolf said:


> he didnt lose he got enough legal votes but a few corrupt counties have engaged in massive vote fraud
> 
> he will stay in i think


You are merely confused 
Trump's legal team was unable to produce any evidence of fraudulent vote counting.
None.

Fox News and Newsmax have had to retract their claims of fraud.

Powell, the Qanon lawyer, has been shown to use phony witnesses, one of which had a criminal record and falsified credentials to the courts.

Giuliani is now under Federal investigation for his own activities in the Ukraine.

Trump lost.
It's reality, steppenwolf.

Trump has destroyed the Republican Party. It's become the Party of Trump/Qanon/Fasists Are Us.



> he will stay in i think


Of course you do


----------



## Johnny b

steppenwolf said:


> ??but the chinese dont do evil?
> 
> free the chinese muslims!!


The Chinese 'do evil'.
The Russians 'do evil'.

Donald Trump 'does evil'.

And all of your posts concerning Trump do seem to support Trump accomplishing that 'evil'.

Why do you support evil?


----------



## Johnny b

steppenwolf said:


> ....................
> 
> why do americans keep hating russia?


You won't hear this from the likes of Joe Imbriano or Alex Jones.
Not from the Tea Party.
Not from Libertarian anarchists.
Not from Qanon.
Not from the illegal militias.

But if you were to actually read or listen to recognized authoritative news outlets, you'd find that Russia is waging a cyber war against the US and has been interfering in our elections on a large scale.

It's rather obvious the Russians are playing a 'long game' at reasserting themselves as a major world power and to be that, 
the US must lose it's influence in the free world.
To that end, Donald Trump has been successful.

I do realize that since the Russians and the Trump supporters share goals, you don't want to see that influence stopped.
'Make America Great Again', when you look at the mechanism behind the slogan, is really about destroying it.



> why do americans keep hating russia?


Because Russia is intent on destroying our society for their own benefit?
A better question would be, why do Trumpists approve?
( But we already know that response  ...  )


----------



## Tabvla

steppenwolf said:


> he didnt lose he got enough legal votes but a few corrupt counties have engaged in massive vote fraud


Steppenwolf, may I respectfully suggest that you read my Post #2,214. In particular, read the last paragraph very carefully, think about it, ask yourself that question and then think again.

T.


----------



## steppenwolf

Tabvla said:


> There are two questions that Forum Members might like to think about and then give their view.
> 
> Q1. How many days will Trump serve as US President?
> Q2. For what reason will his presidency be ended?
> 
> ------------------------- Some info to help answer the questions -------------------------
> 
> Minimum number of days : 1 day
> Maximum number of days : 2,922 days (8 x 365 + 2)
> 
> Possible reasons for presidency to be terminated (in Alphabetical order)
> 
> Completes both terms and therefore must leave office
> Completes first term and does not get re-elected
> Impeachment
> Loses the support of the Republican Party
> Resignation due to perceived threat of danger
> Resignation due to personal issues
> Scandals
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> 
> T.
> 
> [Edited to reflect Littlefield's suggestion]


you to need mention masssive voter fraud that did happen as a reason


----------



## steppenwolf

what a joke... Russia was our ally in ww2 and in the civil war

the fake voting machines are made in china -its the chinese who are still communists doing all the crap and hacking


----------



## steppenwolf

im part Finn and it was part of russia when my family was there and then Ussr invaded again in winter war and Ussr killed Estonians too like the Nazis did in ww2 i think

i have reason to hate Russians but i really doubt modern Russia is too bad-china are the still communists

yet maybe Russia was too harsh on Chechnya

the obama types hate Syria i guess i guess because isreal hated Syria yet Iran was on Syria's side so maybe hillery would have turned against Iran too later?

both parties seem to please israel=so both aren't too great while Palestine suffers

i would wish russia comes up with a palestian peace plan--russia recognizes palestine moreso that usa does


----------



## steppenwolf

https://frankreport.com/2020/04/18/...-accomplishments-of-president-donald-j-trump/ ingrates


----------



## Johnny b

steppenwolf said:


> you to need mention masssive voter fraud that did happen as a reason


You need to admit to reality.
Trump and his lawyers made claims they couldn't backup in court.
There was no massive voter fraud.


----------



## Johnny b

steppenwolf said:


> what a joke... Russia was our ally in ww2 and in the civil war
> 
> .......................


Where did you attend your schooling?

Russia was not Communist at the time of our Civil War. It was Imperial and sided with the US as an attempt to offset the British influence in Europe.

Ever hear of General BlackJack Pershing?
Not that you even care about history, his invasion of Russia ( termed an expedition ) made history and even written about in history books.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Expeditionary_Force,_North_Russia

Russia was Communist at the time of WW2 and the major controling member of the Soviet Union.
The US and Russia shared what became a common enemy, the Third Reich.
Hitler and Stalin even signed a non aggression pact at one time.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Molotov–Ribbentrop_Pact

In case you are unaware, the Soviets were our enemy up to the time period when their Union fell.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dissolution_of_the_Soviet_Union

Your hero, Putin previously a Soviet KGB officer, has resumed aggression.
That is a fact. One you can not refute.
And that is another reality you seem to deny.

Comrade steppenwolf


----------



## Johnny b

steppenwolf said:


> .........................
> 
> the fake voting machines are made in china -its the chinese who are still communists doing all the crap and hacking


Parts do come from China.
But your constant diatribe fails on the simple fact that China advances economically and militarily because of Trump.
Pay attention. Look around at the condition of our society.
It's been fractured to a great degree because of Trump's ineptitude, his draconian domestic policies and his willingness to be associated with cults and militant degenerate militias.

If they are 'fake' machines, explain how Trump won in 2016.
Explain how Republicans in Congress got elected.

Electing Trump a second time would favor China.......and Russia.

If you read the news rather than watching YouTube, you would have come across this:
https://www.nbcnews.com/news/all/ch...ng-scrutiny-inside-america-s-biggest-n1104516
( look at the date of that article, it's old news. )

Notice that up to now, you didn't even know who was the largest manufacturer of voting machines. It's not Dominion.

By the way, the hacking has been identified as Russian.

Comrade steppenwolf


----------



## Johnny b

steppenwolf said:


> im part Finn and it was part of russia when my family was there and then Ussr invaded again in winter war and Ussr killed Estonians too like the Nazis did in ww2 i think
> 
> i have reason to hate Russians but i really doubt modern Russia is too bad-china are the still communists
> 
> yet maybe Russia was too harsh on Chechnya
> 
> the obama types hate Syria i guess i guess because isreal hated Syria yet Iran was on Syria's side so maybe hillery would have turned against Iran too later?
> 
> both parties seem to please israel=so both aren't too great while Palestine suffers
> 
> i would wish russia comes up with a palestian peace plan--russia recognizes palestine moreso that usa does


YouTube, eh?


----------



## Johnny b

Interesting....the New York Post has taken a position.
And it's not going make King Donnie happy.










* The Post says: Give it up, Mr. President - for your sake and the nation's  *
By Post Editorial Board
https://nypost.com/2020/12/27/give-it-up-mr-president-for-your-sake-and-the-nations/



> In other words, you're cheering for an undemocratic coup.
> 
> You had every right to investigate the election. But let's be clear: Those efforts have found nothing.


----------



## Johnny b

An opinion piece, but spot on.

* Americans' acceptance of Trump's behavior will be his vilest legacy *
https://www.theguardian.com/comment...-of-trumps-behavior-will-be-his-vilest-legacy


----------



## steppenwolf

Johnny b said:


> Where did you attend your schooling?
> 
> Russia was not Communist at the time of our Civil War. It was Imperial and sided with the US as an attempt to offset the British influence in Europe.
> 
> Ever hear of General BlackJack Pershing?
> Not that you even care about history, his invasion of Russia ( termed an expedition ) made history and even written about in history books.
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Expeditionary_Force,_North_Russia
> 
> Russia was Communist at the time of WW2 and the major controling member of the Soviet Union.
> The US and Russia shared what became a common enemy, the Third Reich.
> Hitler and Stalin even signed a non aggression pact at one time.
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Molotov-Ribbentrop_Pact
> 
> In case you are unaware, the Soviets were our enemy up to the time period when their Union fell.
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dissolution_of_the_Soviet_Union
> 
> Your hero, Putin previously a Soviet KGB officer, has resumed aggression.
> That is a fact. One you can not refute.
> And that is another reality you seem to deny.
> 
> Comrade steppenwolf


you combine annoyance with telling me obvious facts with your 2017 brand of chucky dem schumerism russia russia russia


----------



## steppenwolf

from 1945 to 1990 russia wasnt really the enemy of dems and bernie sanders who went there in 1981

Ussr rather


----------



## steppenwolf

wall st politicians loved ussr-common knowlegde


----------



## Johnny b

steppenwolf said:


> you combine annoyance with telling me obvious facts with your 2017 brand of chucky dem schumerism russia russia russia


And you make up BS


----------



## Johnny b

steppenwolf said:


> from 1945 to 1990 russia wasnt really the enemy of dems and bernie sanders who went there in 1981
> 
> Ussr rather


That's nothing to do with the topic at hand.
Russia is an enemy.
And you seem to have no issue with it.
Donald Trump has no issue with it, Russia helped him get elected in 2016.

Putin is your 'Boss' ! 
(and you love him  )


----------



## Johnny b

steppenwolf said:


> .........
> 
> wall st politicians loved ussr-common knowlegde


I didn't bother with your YouTube evidence.

Wall Street Politicians are those politicians that support Wall Street Capitalism.
That would be the GOP. Republicans. Not Democrats 

Well, the GOP certainly loves the current crop of Ruskies LOL!


----------



## steppenwolf

trump is our president and Russia is no enemy

what do you base that on?crazy nonesense


----------



## steppenwolf

why is russia an enemy ? because of some ole NATO nut from 1970 said so?


----------



## Johnny b

steppenwolf said:


> trump is our president and Russia is no enemy
> 
> what do you base that on?crazy nonesense


Trump is about to become a civilian and likely in trouble with the law.
January 20, 2021.
It will start with the mundane. Tax evasion. Then general corruption.
I suspect sedition and treason will be mentioned but at the same time, put aside and forgotten in order to keep the riffraff from committing terrorism..

You'll cry and whine that it's just so unfair.
You'll blame the Democrats. You'll blame the Republican Judges and government officials that wouldn't lie or pervert the law in support of Trump.

But that's what happens when you depend only on YouTubers for 'facts' and 'history'.
Insane confusion.



> Russia is no enemy


>yawn<


----------



## Johnny b

steppenwolf said:


> why is russia an enemy ? because of some ole NATO nut from 1970 said so?


Read a news paper.
Read authoritative and respected news sites online.
Read what's been posted lately in this forum about the cyber war that Russia started against the US.

Your ignorance is no excuse for denial.


----------



## steppenwolf

no, the democrats are going to prison


----------



## steppenwolf

and we know democrats do 98% of the vote fraud


----------



## Johnny b

steppenwolf said:


> no, the democrats are going to prison





steppenwolf said:


> and we know democrats do 98% of the vote fraud


lol.
You're just being childish and in a state of denial 
You are unable to point to any evidence of your election fraud claims, just like the Trump lawyers. 
All election fraud claims you have posted in the past have been refuted, in court rooms, often by judges Trump hand picked. Even Attorney General Barr and a host of Federal Government department heads

I told you your unsuccessful support of Russian domination might leave you unhinged.
😬

Well, you still have your YouTube to fall back on.


----------



## Johnny b

As usual, it's someone else's fault:


* Trump news - live: President blamed Kushner for election loss over Covid testing, report says *
https://news.yahoo.com/trump-news-live-president-abandons-084957729.html


----------



## steppenwolf

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1344727330523123714 heres your Hillary talking about her Chinese friends and rigging elections and theres a clip of her online where she wants to rig Palestine elections


----------



## Johnny b

steppenwolf said:


> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1344727330523123714 heres your Hillary talking about her Chinese friends and rigging elections and theres a clip of her online where she wants to rig Palestine elections


So what?

LOL!
I didn't vote for Obama and I certainly didn't vote for Hillary Clinton.

I'm a card carrying member of the Republican Party and have been since Richard Nixon.

But I'm also a 'Never Trumper'.
He's not 'republican'. He's a Rino.
Just another malicious opportunist like all the fascists, cultists, racists, illegal militias and general degenerates that support Trump.

In other words, I don't do 'sieg heil' fist pumps with 'you guys' or wear a 'Red Hat'. 

So when you vilify Clinton or Obama, I don't care.....  ..........



> heres your Hillary


You poor soul 
All that wasted effort ......


----------



## steppenwolf

i voted for john kerry and tulsi gabberd so maybe im not into just one party 

when kerry lost i was real mad -,,even though hes not that great maybe, as i know now
but if he had won and it seemed like there was massive vote fraud i cant see my self just being silent


----------



## steppenwolf

ok youre a never trumper asnd think hes a RINO

youre really mixed up guy

you think trump is a Russian argent? i thought Nixon was into opening up to Russia or Reagan was

you hate Reagan? i voted for him but i dont like reagan much now or any from those years

Russia stole part of Finland still so i somewhat hate them in ways

Ussr killed many in Estonia too - i think it was during ww2


----------



## steppenwolf

the main thing now is getting rid of all the vote fraud NOW!

but youll argue this point too as you argue all points


----------



## Johnny b

steppenwolf said:


> ok youre a never trumper asnd think hes a RINO
> 
> youre really mixed up guy
> 
> you think trump is a Russian argent? i thought Nixon was into opening up to Russia or Reagan was
> 
> you hate Reagan? i voted for him but i dont like reagan much now or any from those years
> 
> Russia stole part of Finland still so i somewhat hate them in ways
> 
> Ussr killed many in Estonia too - i think it was during ww2


Do you ever proof read what you write before you post it? ( LOL! )


----------



## Johnny b

steppenwolf said:


> the main thing now is getting rid of all the vote fraud NOW!
> 
> but youll argue this point too as you argue all points


Your main goal should be trying to be coherent.

So far, neither you nor Trump's lawyers have provided any evidence of fraud.
Just unproven claims that were easily dismissed.

The 'main thing' is to respect the Constitution.
Trump and his group of supporters, obviously don't.


----------



## Johnny b

steppenwolf said:


> i voted for john kerry and tulsi gabberd so maybe im not into just one party
> 
> when kerry lost i was real mad -,,even though hes not that great maybe, as i know now
> but if he had won and it seemed like there was massive vote fraud i cant see my self just being silent


I really don't know why you posted that.

There hasn't been any examples of massive voter fraud found in the 2020 election.
Claims were made, yes. But claims that turned out to have no validity.

Trump had his legal rights observed and the courts disagreed with his arguments.
But this has been said and posted earlier. 
Nothing has changed.
Trump lost the election.
Biden won.


----------



## BlackFrancis

Johnny b said:


> So far, neither you nor Trump's lawyers have provided any evidence of fraud.
> Just unproven claims that were easily dismissed.


Isn't proof for courtrooms? I don't have skin in this game either way as an anarchist, but I don't like bullcrap. When you want to win court proceedings you don't publicise your evidence up front. I'm satisfied that there were shenanigans that need investigating. Anyone honest and not in an impenetrable social media bubble is as well.


----------



## Johnny b

BlackFrancis said:


> Isn't proof for courtrooms? I don't have skin in this game either way as an anarchist, but I don't like bullcrap. When you want to win court proceedings you don't publicise your evidence up front. I'm satisfied that there were shenanigans that need investigating. Anyone honest and not in an impenetrable social media bubble is as well.





> but I don't like bullcrap


Then why post it?



> When you want to win court proceedings you don't publicise your evidence up front.


When a lawyer wants to actually win a case in court, evidence is the proof deciding the case.
Trump's lawyers provided none.

If you want to believe there were 'shenanigans', that is currently your constitutional right.
If you claim there were 'shenanigans', evidence is the proof of the claim.
Claims have been made in this forum about a fraudulent election that not only have no evidence presented, they've even been refuted.



> I'm satisfied that there were shenanigans......


An interesting opinion and your right to believe.
Flat Earth believers have the same rights.



> Anyone honest and not in an impenetrable social media bubble is as well.


In your opinion.

BTW, welcome to Controversial Topics


----------



## BlackFrancis

Johnny b said:


> BTW, welcome to Controversial Topics


Thank you lol I bet it's filled with knee-slappers like this...


> Then why post it?


The truth of a matter is found either by records of an organisation or by media and by the testimony of witnesses. I'm pretty sure people lie under oath at any given time of the day, but in this case social media is full of recordings of these events. I guess it is down to belief whether we were seeing mass hysteria or crowds of people with a genuine grievance. It just rubs me up the wrong way when the word "belief" is used like we're suggesting that Lord Xenu exists.


----------



## Johnny b

BlackFrancis said:


> Thank you lol I bet it's filled with knee-slappers like this...
> 
> The truth of a matter is found either by records of an organisation or by media and by the testimony of witnesses. I'm pretty sure people lie under oath at any given time of the day, but in this case social media is full of recordings of these events. I guess it is down to belief whether we were seeing mass hysteria or crowds of people with a genuine grievance. It just rubs me up the wrong way when the word "belief" is used like we're suggesting that Lord Xenu exists.


What 'truths' are you referring to?



> I'm pretty sure people lie under oath at any given time of the day


Some people do.
And when repeated often enough, some people accept it as factual by consensus.

This is where 'evidence' comes in.



> .........social media is full of recordings of these events.


The type of 'recordings' you refer to are not evidence.
Just repetition of claims.
Investigations determine the validity of the claim as to whether an act occurred.
So far, no evidence of massive fraudulent activity has been presented or, discovered after investigation.



> I guess it is down to belief whether we were seeing mass hysteria or crowds of people with a genuine grievance.


Or a political movement spurred on by rationalizing their biases.



> It just rubs me up the wrong way when the word "belief" is used like we're suggesting that Lord Xenu exists.


Can't help you there.
To some people, Hubbard was a spiritual leader.
And Scientology still 'lives'.


----------



## Johnny b

Beating the Dead Horse

* Trump Calls Georgia Runoffs 'Invalid' As Polls Tighten, 3 Million Vote Early *
https://www.newsweek.com/trump-georgia-runoffs-invalid-polls-tighten-3-million-vote-early-1558479



> With a record number of voters already having cast their ballots early in Georgia, President Donald Trump has attacked the Senate runoff election process in the Peach State, calling it "illegal and invalid."


----------



## steppenwolf

with the fake Chinese computers with an internet connection anyone can win now


----------



## steppenwolf

are you usually on tik tok johnny?thats a Chinese company...it not russian "avoid vk . co m"

https://www.theepochtimes.com/faceb...-by-chinese-money-through-tiktok_3610009.html


----------



## Johnny b

steppenwolf said:


> with the fake Chinese computers with an internet connection anyone can win now


Anyone with a computer can claim fake facts^^^^^^


----------



## Johnny b

steppenwolf said:


> are you usually on tik tok johnny?thats a Chinese company...it not russian "avoid vk . co m"
> 
> https://www.theepochtimes.com/faceb...-by-chinese-money-through-tiktok_3610009.html


U n h i n g e d ^^^^ 

I think I heard a dead horse laughing lol!


----------



## Johnny b

The headlines keep getting more and more bizarre.

* Pro-Trump lawyer Lin Wood insists he is not insane after tweeting that Mike Pence should face execution by firing squad *
https://news.yahoo.com/pro-trump-lawyer-lin-wood-123415836.html

* Trumpist Lawyer Lin Wood Goes on Unhinged Rant Suggesting Justice John Roberts Is a Murderous Pedophile *
https://www.thedailybeast.com/trump...justice-john-roberts-is-a-murderous-pedophile

* A pro-Trump lawyer called for Republican candidates David Perdue and Kelly Loeffler to be arrested as Georgia's runoff Senate race heats up *
https://www.businessinsider.com/lin...rgias-david-perdue-and-kelly-loeffler-2020-12


----------



## Johnny b

* Gohmert suggests 'violence in the streets' after judge rejects bid to force VP Pence to overturn Biden's win *
https://www.dallasnews.com/news/pol...bid-to-force-vp-pence-to-overturn-bidens-win/



> Late Friday on Newsmax, Gohmert said he had sought redress in court "so that you didn't have to have riots and violence in the street."
> 
> "Bottom line is, the court is saying, 'We're not going to touch this, you have no remedy,'" Gohmert said. "Basically, in effect, the ruling would be that you've got to go to the streets and be as violent as antifa and BLM."
> 
> It's not the first time Gohmert - a former state trial court judge who just won his ninth term in Congress - has expressed admiration for the use of violence to overturn an election.
> 
> At a "Million MAGA March" in November near the White House, he urged Trump supporters to consider "revolution" like the Egyptian uprising seven years ago and the American colonies' revolt against England.


( Gohmert----> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gohmert )


----------



## Johnny b

I've often wondered what non-Ohio residents think of Jim Jordan.
He's a prolific supporter of Trump.
Republican? More like a member of the Tea Party.
It's easy to look him up in Wikipedia.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jim_Jordan_(American_politician)

Trump is suposedly giving him a medal.
Medal of Freedom.
https://www.axios.com/trump-jim-jor...dal-18b704fd-ad55-49e5-8eff-c0742ce7cc3f.html

Going back to Wikipedia
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jim_J...n)#Ohio_State_University_sexual_abuse_scandal
notice the comments about his past employment at Ohio State University.
Law suits against Ohio State University have cost it millions of dollars in settlements.
https://news.osu.edu/ohio-state-162-survivors-finalize-409-million-settlement-in-strauss-case/

In my opinion, Mr. Jordan was merely a pimp for a homosexual sports doctor.
And Trump is giving him a medal.


----------



## Johnny b

I remember when 'family values' was a virtue Republicans used to proclaim as their own.

Have any Presidents been given medals for having sex with porn stars?


----------



## Wino

Medals from Trump are meaningless. Anyone with integrity or proudness would decline acceptance until someone of good character was POTUS. I'd include Medal of Honor - Trump is just the presenter and not involved in choosing, so the medal is theirs regardless. Trumps presenting MoH denigrates the medal and the occasion IMHO.


----------



## Johnny b

Of interest:

* 2 House Democrats ask FBI to investigate Trump's call to Georgia election official *
https://www.usatoday.com/story/news...tes-monday-donald-trump-joe-biden/4124328001/

Image that.
The idea of a lame duck President that could be impeached on his way out of office.

That would be one for the history books


----------



## Wino

Would prevent him from running again, so I say go for it!!!


----------



## Tabvla

In these stressful pandemic times a little humor goes a long way to make the present more bearable..... but.... for the moment can we put aside the humor and answer one question.... "Are we going to be living in a very dangerous period in the next two weeks?"

T.


----------



## Johnny b

Tabvla said:


> In these stressful pandemic times a little humor goes a long way to make the present more bearable..... but.... for the moment can we put aside the humor and answer one question.... "Are we going to be living in a very dangerous period in the next two weeks?"
> 
> T.


With elements of the Republican party attempting to over throw a democratic republic, with cults and illegal militias supportive of their quest.
imo, rather obvious.
Yes.


----------



## Tabvla

So John..... how dangerous is dangerous?

Is Trump going to declare war on Iran and then declare a state of emergency; enact martial law and declare the election null and void? Or....

Will there be civil unrest on an unprecedented scale leading to a state of anarchy which will provide Trump with the excuse to ..... ditto above? Or....

Will Trump (as Commander in Chief) instruct the military to enact a hard coup, which the military is unlikely to obey, which will lead to a constitutional crisis?

You write ...... "rather obvious" ..... but to me it is not obvious where this is going. I would be both surprised and relieved if Trump departed quietly and without further disruption. But that seems like too much to hope for.

T.


----------



## Johnny b

Tabvla said:


> So John..... how dangerous is dangerous?
> 
> Is Trump going to declare war on Iran and then declare a state of emergency; enact martial law and declare the election null and void? Or....
> 
> Will there be civil unrest on an unprecedented scale leading to a state of anarchy which will provide Trump with the excuse to ..... ditto above? Or....
> 
> Will Trump (as Commander in Chief) instruct the military to enact a hard coup, which the military is unlikely to obey, which will lead to a constitutional crisis?
> 
> You write ...... "rather obvious" ..... but to me it is not obvious where this is going. I would be both surprised and relieved if Trump departed quietly and without further disruption. But that seems like too much to hope for.
> 
> T.


If it's explicit answers you want
I suggest you watch the news as events play out.

I have opinions and I've already stated them.


----------



## Wino

There's no telling what this bag of pus will do and nothing that would surprise me. Everyone with a brain knew in Nov. 2016 that this administration would not end well, whether one or more terms. Worst thing the USA has EVER done was electing Trump POTUS. This nation (a majority of) will rue the day for generations.


----------



## Johnny b

Wino said:


> There's no telling what this bag of pus will do and nothing that would surprise me. Everyone with a brain knew in Nov. 2016 that this administration would not end well, whether one or more terms. Worst thing the USA has EVER done was electing Trump POTUS. This nation (a majority of) will rue the day for generations.


Agreed.

The only thing predictable about Trump is that he's wishing and planning something destructive on his way to Scotland.
He's been able to turn up the nutjob rhetoric to a point his cultist and militia followers think they're on a holy mission and from it, seem wild and incredibly unpredictable.

Here's a thought: without the Covid-19 pandemic, Trump probably would have been re-elected.
Torture and racism seemed to have little negative effect on his popularity. 
And his financial wizardry was all smoke and mirrors.


----------



## Wino

Trump is SOL on Scotland. They hate him more than we do - if that's possible !! LOL



> The order imposes a legal requirement on Scottish residents to stay at home except for essential purpose, including caring responsibilities, essential shopping, essential exercise and being part of an extended household.
> 
> "I have no idea what Donald Trump's travel plans are," Sturgeon responded. "You'll be glad to know I hope and expect ... that the travel plan that he immediately has is to exit the White House. But beyond that I don't know."
> 
> "We are not allowing people to come into Scotland without an essential purpose right now. And that would apply to him just as it applies to anybody else," she added.
> 
> "Coming to play golf is not what I would consider to be an essential purpose."


----------



## Johnny b

* Iran issues Interpol arrest warrant for Trump over Soleimani killing as tensions rise *
https://news.yahoo.com/iran-issues-interpol-arrest-warrant-170000951.html


----------



## Wino

Trumps "Gulf of Tonkin" along with the unauthorized air control message about crashing a plane into congress today. As I stated in 2,277 above, no telling what this pustule will do to remain in office. 

Georgia run off results will add fuel to the crazy.


----------



## Wino

Well, Jan. 06, 2021 makes it official - we are now a tin pot third world nation led by a despot.


----------



## Johnny b

Rudy Giuliani may have a serious problem in the near future concerning sedition:

* Rudy Giuliani called for "trial by combat" and then chaos descended on Capitol Hill  *
https://www.salon.com/2021/01/06/ru...bat-and-then-chaos-descended-on-capitol-hill/


----------



## Johnny b

Like father, like daughter.

* Ivanka Trump deletes tweet calling pro-Trump rioters 'patriots' *
https://news.yahoo.com/ivanka-trump-deletes-tweet-calling-211835462.html



> Ivanka Trump has deleted a tweet in which she referred to the president's supporters violently rioting at the US Capitol building as "patriots".


And like her father, retracts what obviously became an unattractive opinion and restates it to something more acceptable.

Just like her father.

And Rudy's doing it too, even after egging the tratorous seditionists into doing violence.


----------



## Couriant

Johnny b said:


> Do you ever proof read what you write before you post it? ( LOL! )


You do realize who you are talking to?



Tabvla said:


> In these stressful pandemic times a little humor goes a long way to make the present more bearable..... but.... for the moment can we put aside the humor and answer one question.... "Are we going to be living in a very dangerous period in the next two weeks?"
> 
> T.


That got answered yesterday....

Not sure why i didn't get notifications for this thread... again... maybe it was the chinese hackers....


----------



## valis

Any guesses as to if sedition will come into play int the courtroom? And I'm laughing at Derrick Evans.....actions do indeed have consequences.....


----------



## Johnny b

I would think a lot of sedition/insurrection charges.
Just about anyone that entered the building/chambers.
And many weren't wearing masks.
Interesting how Covid is the least of their worries now.

The photo of the masked Capitol intruder ( two were reported so far ) with tie strap handcuffs is thought to be associated with an attempt of 'capture/kill' concerning targeted legislators. It's been likened to the attempt on Michigan's Governor.
From that angle, add attempted murder.

Evans.....an idiot.


----------



## valis

An idiot indeed...who was elected...a familiar refrain these days...


----------



## Johnny b

Interesting choice of timing to fund raise.

* Hawley and Cruz campaigns sent fundraising messages to supporters as Capitol under siege *
https://news.yahoo.com/hawley-cruz-campaigns-sent-fundraising-194257169.html

Hawley:


> In his email, he said: "Many career politicians in the DC establishment want me to stay quiet. I suppose you can assume nothing I do will matter. That it won't matter if I object or not, so I should sit by and do nothing."
> 
> "But this is not about me!" he added. "It is about the people I serve, and it is about ensuring confidence in our elections."


One might ask, how does siding with the goals of seditionists and insurrectionists ensure anything other than sedition and insurrection?

Same for 'lying' Ted ( Trump's original nickname for Cruz ) :


> "I'm leading the fight to reject electors from key states unless there is an emergency audit of the election results," the message said. "Will you stand with me?"


----------



## Johnny b

* A day before the riot at the Capitol, people received a call from a group of Republican attorneys general urging them to 'march:' report *
https://www.businessinsider.com/rep...ple-before-capitol-riot-and-said-march-2021-1



> The day before pro-Trump rioters stormed the US Capitol building, people received an encouraging phone call from a group of Republican attorneys general telling them to "march," NBC News reported.
> 
> The group - the Republican Attorney General Association - is made up of some of the nation's highest-ranking law enforcement and legal officers.


The list of members:
https://ballotpedia.org/Republican_Attorneys_General_Association


Office titleOfficeholder nameDate assumed officeParty affiliation Attorney General of Florida
 Ashley B. Moody
 January 8, 2019
 Republican Party
 Attorney General of Missouri
 Eric Schmitt
 2019
 Republican Party
 Attorney General of Utah
 Sean D. Reyes
 December 30, 2013
 Republican Party
 Attorney General of Indiana
 Curtis Hill
 January 9, 2017
 Republican Party
 Attorney General of South Carolina
 Alan Wilson
 January 12, 2011
 Republican Party
 Attorney General of Ohio
 Dave Yost
 January 14, 2019
 Republican Party
 Attorney General of Arkansas
 Leslie Rutledge
 January 13, 2015
 Republican Party
 Attorney General of Oklahoma
 Mike Hunter
 February 20, 2017
 Republican Party
 Attorney General of Louisiana
 Jeff Landry
 January 11, 2016
 Republican Party
 Attorney General of West Virginia
 Patrick Morrisey
 January 14, 2013
 Republican Party
 Attorney General of Montana
 Austin Knudsen
 January 4, 2021
 Republican Party
 Attorney General of Idaho
 Lawrence Wasden
 January 3, 2003
 Republican Party
 Attorney General of Nebraska
 Doug Peterson
 January 8, 2015
 Republican Party
 Attorney General of Alabama
 Steve Marshall
 February 10, 2017
 Republican Party
 Attorney General of Tennessee
 Herbert H. Slatery
 October 1, 2014
 Republican Party
  Attorney General of North Dakota
 Wayne Stenehjem
 2001
 Republican Party
 Attorney General of Mississippi
 Lynn Fitch
 January 9, 2020
 Republican Party
 Attorney General of Kansas
 Derek Schmidt
 January 10, 2011
 Republican Party
 Attorney General of New Hampshire
 Gordon MacDonald
 April 5, 2017
 Republican Party
 Attorney General of Wyoming
 Bridget Hill
 March 15, 2019
 Republican Party
 Attorney General of Georgia
 Chris Carr
 November 1, 2016
 Republican Party
 Attorney General of Kentucky
 Daniel Cameron
 December 17, 2019
 Republican Party
 Attorney General of Arizona
 Mark Brnovich
 January 5, 2015
 Republican Party
 Attorney General of Texas
 Ken Paxton
 2015
 Republican Party
 Attorney General of South Dakota
 Jason Ravnsborg
 January 5, 2019
 Republican Party


----------



## Johnny b

Ahem!
About Pence.

* Was 'Hang Mike Pence' Chanted at Capitol Riot? *
https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/hang-mike-pence-chant-capitol-riot/



> A pro-Trump mob chanted "Hang Mike Pence" as they stormed the U.S. Capitol on Jan. 6, 2021.
> 
> *Photojournalists also captured images of a gallows erected outside the Capitol. *

















Pence had to learn the value of Trump loyalty the hard way.

https://news.yahoo.com/trump-goes-down-screaming-pence-174457756.html

edit: Just came across a more graphic photo of that gallows.


----------



## Johnny b

Rudy...Rudy...Rudy....what the hell are you up to? LOL!










* Was Giuliani Photographed with Capitol Rioter Jake Angeli? *

Answer: Yes, he was.



> While the above-displayed photograph does not indicate that Giuliani and Angeli had any meaningful relationship, it does suggest that Angeli, who stormed the U.S. Capitol, was a supporter of Giuliani's efforts to overturn the results of the 2020 election. It should also be noted that a few hours before the pro-Trump mob stormed the Capitol, Giuliani delivered a speech at Trump's rally in which he made false allegations of voter fraud and called for "trial by combat."


About that 'trial by combat' comment:

Rudy:


> Over the next 10 days, we get to see the machines that are crooked, the ballots that are fraudulent. And if we're wrong, we will be made fools of. But if we're right, and lot of them will go to jail. So, let's have trial by combat.


The pair were definitely 'on the same page', imo. Overthrowing the results of a legal election and the incoming administration.


----------



## Johnny b

About that capture/kill concern:

( Down the page )

*Air Force veteran fired after reported Capitol riot participation *
https://www.usatoday.com/story/news...pdates-officer-pinned-arrests-fbi/6607757002/



> Texas-based Hillwood Airways confirmed to USA TODAY Saturday that retired Lt. Col. Larry Rendall Brock, Jr. had been terminated following a report in the New Yorker that identified him.
> 
> Brock told the magazine that he was the man in the photos and videos seen standing in the Senate chamber holding zip ties. He told the New Yorker that he found them on the floor. "I wish I had not picked those up," he told the magazine.


.................

https://www.militarytimes.com/news/...fied-as-retired-air-force-lieutenant-colonel/

https://www.newsweek.com/larry-rendall-brock-jr-senate-rioter-tactical-gear-regrets-zip-ties-1560216


> ........ also said he wore tactical gear because he "didn't want to get stabbed or hurt.


----------



## Johnny b

More violence forecast.

* Exclusive: FBI warns of potential boogaloo violence during Jan. 17 rallies *
https://news.yahoo.com/exclusive-fb...violence-during-jan-17-rallies-170801569.html



> Specifically, the report describes evidence of credible threats related to events planned for Jan. 17 at the state Capitol buildings in Michigan and Minnesota.
> 
> Those rallies are part of what members of the violent far-right and libertarian boogaloo movement are hoping will be a nationwide "armed march" on Capitol Hill and all 50 state capitols next Sunday.


----------



## Couriant

And they wonder why Parler was dropped by AWS at. el....


----------



## Johnny b

And now, something other than Trump's attempt to damage the US last week.

( Sub-title..... the results an unstable idiot fooling a nation about a supposedly successful trade war )

* How China Won Trump's Trade War and Got Americans to Foot the Bill *
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/arti...na-won-trump-s-good-and-easy-to-win-trade-war

Imagine that 

Trump has hurt the US so badly, illegal immigrants are leaving to find a better way of life.

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/02/26/us/undocumented-population-study-mexicans.html

We don't need a Trump wall along the border. 
How will those Mexican illegals be able to escape?

And it's not just Hispanics leaving.


> And Mexicans, the largest foreign-born population in the United States, are not the only nationality electing to leave. The undocumented population from South Korea has dropped by 22 percent, and Poland's has plummeted more than 50 percent - returning to countries that have enjoyed economic prosperity.


----------



## Wino

The idiot Trump will go to his grave believing, incorrectly, that China paid the tariffs, not US consumers. As the old adage said - stupid is forever.


----------



## Couriant

It just gets better and better:

Parler Data Compromised

So from what I heard, the hackers were able to get thousands of the verified accounts where the users used their Driving License to verify themselves and also posted they were at the Capitol... and then sent the info to the FBI..

Now there is a trend for #NoFlyList to add the people that were there on the No Fly List.


----------



## Johnny b

Ha ha ha ha.......
All those macho seditionists and treasonous citizens over at Parler are probably sweating it at the moment and wishing they'd never joined Parler.

* Parler's amateur coding could come back to haunt Capitol Hill rioters *
https://arstechnica.com/information...ould-come-back-to-haunt-capitol-hill-rioters/



> Prosecutors are already pursuing more than 150 suspects in Wednesday's riot. The preservation of some 80TB of Parler posts, including more than 1 million raw video files, may result in more people being charged.


:up:


----------



## Johnny b

Couriant said:


> It just gets better and better:
> 
> Parler Data Compromised
> 
> So from what I heard, the hackers were able to get thousands of the verified accounts where the users used their Driving License to verify themselves and also posted they were at the Capitol... and then sent the info to the FBI..
> 
> Now there is a trend for #NoFlyList to add the people that were there on the No Fly List.


You beat me to it LOL.
:up:


----------



## Couriant

Johnny b said:


> You beat me to it LOL.


There is a viral TikTok going around that people are mischaracterizing it as being on a No Fly List:
https://www.politifact.com/factchec...t-video-capitol-rioter-upset-because-hes-no-/ so just make sure when you see these videos, remember if someone is on the no fly list, they would not even get to the gate at that point.


----------



## Couriant

Johnny b said:


> Ha ha ha ha.......
> All those macho seditionists and treasonous citizens over at Parler are probably sweating it at the moment and wishing they'd never joined Parler.
> 
> * Parler's amateur coding could come back to haunt Capitol Hill rioters *
> https://arstechnica.com/information...ould-come-back-to-haunt-capitol-hill-rioters/


I wonder if they can get cell phone records of their locations too?


----------



## Johnny b

Couriant said:


> I wonder if they can get cell phone records of their locations too?


I don't know about that, but I wonder how many videos were shot at 'secret' militia training camps? 
GPS metadata from those vids would kinda light them up on a map for the Feds lol.


----------



## Wino

Deutsch Bank just bailed on Trump. This just keeps getting better and better !!


----------



## Couriant

Couriant said:


> I wonder if they can get cell phone records of their locations too?





Johnny b said:


> I don't know about that, but I wonder how many videos were shot at 'secret' militia training camps?
> GPS metadata from those vids would kinda light them up on a map for the Feds lol.


Well what do you know...

Parler Users Breached Deep Inside U.S. Capitol Building, GPS Data Shows


----------



## Couriant

Well this would have been bad


----------



## Johnny b

A long but interesting article about how seditionists, insurrectionists, Trump supporters and...elements of Congress worked together to try and blame antifa for their own traitorous actions on Jan 6.

* How the antifa conspiracy theory traveled from the fringe to the floor of Congress *
https://www.usatoday.com/in-depth/n...ry-traveled-fringe-floor-congress/6620908002/


----------



## Johnny b

Wino said:


> Deutsch Bank just bailed on Trump. This just keeps getting better and better !!


Major businesses are also dumping Trump.

https://www.newsweek.com/businesses-cut-ties-donald-trump-donations-funding-suspended-1560746

There's a slap .....also the PGA lol.

edit:
More on the demise of Trump's business empire:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/poli...cb91fc-5514-11eb-a931-5b162d0d033d_story.html

This stood out:


> Trump lost a much bigger broker relationship Tuesday night when real estate giant Cushman & Wakefield told The Washington Post it would no longer work with him. The company has handled an array of business for Trump for many years, including office leasing at Trump Tower and 40 Wall Street, and retail leasing in Chicago. It means that Trump's company will quickly have to find someone else to handle lease negotiations at some of his most prominent properties.
> 
> .....
> Now, through his encouragement of rioters who ransacked the U.S. Capitol, Trump has made his company a pariah and driven away allies who could have brought it revenue and post-politics credibility.


----------



## Wino

If this continues, he and his family will be living on "Go Fund Me" from his idiot worshipers - none of which he gives a flying fart for other than grifting them out of their money. Worthless despot.


----------



## Tabvla

If Congress votes to Impeach that would provide a considerable amount of legal precedence if criminal charges were brought post-20th. If the wording of the Impeachment document were the basis of a criminal case and if, in that criminal case, were to be found guilty, then that might incur a minimum incarceration of 15 years.

That would go a very long way to reinstating the USA as the democratic light to be admired, respected and adhered to by all democracies and would make tinpot dictators think again about their ambitions.

T.


----------



## Johnny b

Tabvla said:


> If Congress votes to Impeach that would provide a considerable amount of legal precedence if criminal charges were brought post-20th. If the wording of the Impeachment document were the basis of a criminal case and if, in that criminal case, were to be found guilty, then that might incur a minimum incarceration of 15 years.
> 
> That would go a very long way to reinstating the USA as the democratic light to be admired, respected and adhered to by all democracies and would make tinpot dictators think again about their ambitions.
> 
> T.


The 'talk' about impeachment so far seems to be directed at 'incitement' to violence.
From a political pov, I doubt Trump would be incarcerated.
I think much of the GOP simply wants to see Trump gone from their party, never to be allowed to run for/hold office in the future. Trump has become a liability for the GOP.

There are many civilians of a like mind that appear to support Trump.
The real question there is ....are they loyalists or just using Trump as a figurehead?
The fascist/racist element is nothing new, they've been building strength for more than several decades and I suspect they saw current events as timely for their power play.
The 'Boogaloo' movement seems a major player and their 'cause' is less for support of Trump and more for a civil war to overthrow the existing form of government.

And then there are the nutters. Qanon cultists. They currently worship Trump but as seen, they can do a 180 and hate just as passionately as seen concerning Pence.

Tea party and Libertarian anarchists seem to be aligned with Trump, but I suspect most of them realize Trump is only 'for Trump' and they return the favor by using him for their own gains.

Currently, extremist rightwing evangelicals do support Trump, largely because of Trump's promises about abortion and right to life.
But Trump is on his way out power and his promises die, not that they were ever sincere/real to begin with.
They'll be looking for someone more 'resilient'. 

What's dangerous is that Trump/et al have left a 'roadmap of failure' that rightwing extremists will know to avoid in their next power play.

Putting Trump behind bars would be justice, imo, but the rest of the world's worst leaders have also seen what doesn't work well in subverting a free society.
With Trump out of the picture, those types will be the next aggressors against free societies.
In failure, Trump teaches them well.

And of course, there will still be socialists to deal with. No doubt they've learned a lot also.


----------



## Tabvla

Interesting and balanced Post by Johnny B....

My view is that if any of those who have been arrested are tried, found guilty and given a prison term then the instigator of this disaster (5 people died, including a police officer), should at the very least be given a sentence that is equivalent in time to the longest sentence given by the courts.

T.


----------



## 2twenty2

Live Updates: The House, With Some G.O.P. Support, Votes to Impeach Trump a Historic Second Time

https://www.nytimes.com/live/2021/01/13/us/trump-impeachment?smid=tw-nytimes&smtyp=cur


----------



## Johnny b

Something to watch for and it's looking bad.

Potentially, it's a matter of elected officials ( congressmen ) leading tours through the Capitol Jan 5 which may have been reconnaissance of the building's layout, by those that committed insurrection.

* New Jersey congresswoman demands investigation into colleagues' 'reconnaissance' tours of Capitol *
https://www.usatoday.com/story/news...rs-aided-their-capitol-reconnaiss/4151448001/


----------



## Couriant

Johnny b said:


> Something to watch for and it's looking bad.
> 
> Potentially, it's a matter of elected officials ( congressmen ) leading tours through the Capitol Jan 5 which may have been reconnaissance of the building's layout, by those that committed insurrection.
> 
> * New Jersey congresswoman demands investigation into colleagues' 'reconnaissance' tours of Capitol *
> https://www.usatoday.com/story/news...rs-aided-their-capitol-reconnaiss/4151448001/


Wow that is really not looking good... Do you know if that one that was tweeting the whereabouts of Pelosi was part of this?


----------



## Johnny b

Couriant said:


> Wow that is really not looking good... Do you know if that one that was tweeting the whereabouts of Pelosi was part of this?


Nothing definite, just the 'coincidence' that Republican Boebert is reported to be sympathetic with Qanon and her demands to carry a firearm in Chambers now seem a lot more ominous.

Just to note: her tweets during the invasion were information of where Pelosi wasn't going to be found.

Also note:
It appears Boebert may have been trying to carry a concealed weapon into House Chambers on Jan 5.
https://www.denverpost.com/2021/01/13/lauren-boebert-congress-us-capitol-riot/



> And, on Tuesday night, she refused to let Capitol Police search her bag
> ( https://www.denverpost.com/2021/01/12/lauren-boebert-guns-congress-security-stop/ )
> for a gun after setting off a metal detector at the entrance to House chambers. The metal detectors, she said, are a "political stunt" by House Speaker Nancy Pelosi.


----------



## Johnny b

The mentality of some Republican Congressmen is totally reprehensible and deserving of scorn.

From the Republican Congressional Representative Mike Turner:

https://www.daytondailynews.com/loc...achment-heres-why/D45SVSFSJBESBDXPD6R5GT4HGQ/



> "A violent mob rioted and stormed the Capitol in a futile attempt to overturn the results of a free and fair election. They failed," he said in a press release.





> "In less than a week, President Trump is leaving office disgraced and discredited for his efforts to overturn the 2020 election. However, Speaker (Nancy) Pelosi's snap impeachment is absent due process, hearings, witnesses and violates our responsibilities under the Constitution. For these reasons, I could not support it."


Due process occurs in the Senate, not the House in regards to Impeachment.
The House brings the charges, the Senate the verdict.

All Turner did was argue to empower and embolden a sitting President that has entertained sedition by orchestrating a violent attack on Congress.

And he represents my district.

His argument boils down to: It's too late to charge Trump with a crime. :down:


----------



## Wino

My county has five US Reps in Congress. Three voted to impeach - the other two gave the same convoluted BS comment your rep did as to why they voted no. The latter trying to appease both sides and showing no principles outside of their duplicity to obfuscate the BS and still support the insurrectionist in chief while acting holier than the other scumbags that wholly support Trump no matter what he does. If I weren't an atheist I'd hope they (as in Trump worshipers) all rot in hell !


----------



## Johnny b

I doubt this is a surprise to anyone that frequents the Internet.

* Banned from Facebook and Twitter, pro-Trump extremists hatch Inauguration Day violence in dark reaches of the web *
https://www.usatoday.com/story/tech...tter-violence-gab-telegram-signal/4151498001/



> Expelled from mainstream social media, the supporters of President Trump, QAnon conspiracy theorists, white supremacists and armed agitators behind the deadly Capitol siege have burrowed into the darker reaches of the internet, where they are hatching plans to converge on state capitals and Washington, D.C., this weekend and Inauguration Day in smaller online forums and on encrypted messaging apps.


An excerpt from the now defunct Parler:


> "Many of Us will return on January 19, 2021, carrying Our weapons, in support of Our nation's resolve, to which [sic] the world will never forget!!!" one QAnon supporter wrote on Parler, a right-leaning social media platform that was taken offline Monday when Amazon stopped hosting it. "We will come in numbers that no standing army or police agency can match."


And this stands out in the article:


> On Wednesday, Trump, who is now the only president in U.S. history to be impeached twice, released a taped statement: "No true supporter of mine could ever threaten or harass their fellow Americans."


With all the lies Trump has generated, that one is the stupidest of them all.


----------



## Wino

Like or not CNN's Dana Bash called BS on Trumps video.

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/poli...on-trump-released-video/vi-BB1cJuWr?ocid=News


----------



## Johnny b

Interesting admission:

* A 'Stop the Steal' organizer, now banned by Twitter, said three GOP lawmakers helped plan his D.C. rally *
https://www.washingtonpost.com/nation/2021/01/13/ali-alexander-capitol-biggs-gosar/



> Alexander, who organized the "Stop the Steal" movement, said he hatched the plan - coinciding with Congress's vote to certify the electoral college votes - alongside three GOP lawmakers: Reps. Andy Biggs (Ariz.), Mo Brooks (Ala.) and Paul A. Gosar (Ariz.), all hard-line Trump supporters.
> 
> "We four schemed up of putting maximum pressure on Congress while they were voting,"


Now to wonder how many in Congress worked in conjunction/cooperation with Biggs, Brooks and Gosar's acts of sedition and insurrection.

I suspect many by the current bold support of Trump by GOP members.


----------



## Wino

The House is full of RW insurrectionist and I expect 1/2 of the right in Senate. If any found to have been involved, I'm hopeful they will be punished to full extent of the law, up to and including death.


----------



## Johnny b

Time for some 'dark humor'. 
OK, you just have to laff at this.

Friendship and loyalty, Trump style.

* Report: 'Isolated And Angry' Trump Refuses To Pay Rudy Giuliani For Legal Work *
https://www.yahoo.com/huffpost/trump-wont-pay-rudy-giuliani-election-legal-work-032513094.html

* Trump is isolated and angry at aides for failing to defend him as he is impeached again *
https://www.washingtonpost.com/poli...95675a-55b6-11eb-a931-5b162d0d033d_story.html



> Trump has instructed aides not to pay Giuliani's legal fees, two officials said, and has demanded that he personally approve any reimbursements for the expenses Giuliani incurred while traveling on the president's behalf to challenge election results in key states. They said Trump has privately expressed concern with some of Giuliani's moves and did not appreciate a demand from Giuliani for $20,000 a day in fees for his work attempting to overturn the election.


LOL...it's all Rudy's fault


----------



## Wino

I love it when they eat their own !!


----------



## Johnny b

Back to the 'not funny'.

There appears to be so little trust in the intentions of Congressional members, this is one result:

* In wake of Capitol riot, House members subject to security screenings *
https://news.yahoo.com/in-wake-of-c...subject-to-security-screenings-222746111.html



> Following the riot that took place at the U.S. Capitol on Jan. 6, members of the House of Representatives will now be subject to security screening, including passing through a metal detector as they enter the House chamber, lawmakers were informed Tuesday.
> 
> "To ensure compliance with the Capitol Police Board regulations concerning firearms and incendiary devices, as well as to provide a safe and secure environment in which to conduct legislative business, effective immediately, all persons, including Members, are required [to] undergo security screening when entering the House Chamber," Timothy Blodgett, the acting House sergeant at arms, wrote in a memo to members of Congress and staff, informing them of new security procedures that will be implemented.


While it's obviously needed because of what the Nation recently experienced, it a sad state of affairs when the threat of sedition and insurrection possibly exists in the people chosen to represent the citizen and work for a safe society.


----------



## SeanLaurence

Do republicans not vet the candidates that run for office? It seems to me that this whole dark period of US history might have been avoided if Trump was properly vetted before he was allowed to run on the Republican ticket.


----------



## Johnny b

SeanLaurence said:


> Do republicans not vet the candidates that run for office? It seems to me that this whole dark period of US history might have been avoided if Trump was properly vetted before he was allowed to run on the Republican ticket.


None that I'm aware of.
Primary elections are supposed to bring out the positives and negatives of a candidate.

Trump's positive was that he was wealthy.
And many liked his negatives.

But this is nothing new for either party. Many have run for office and merely used a party of convenience for an anchor.

Before Trump ( who originally ran with liberal Democrats in NYC, then appeared as an independent and apparently upon realizing where he'd get and have the most influence, declared himself a Republican )
......there was Ron Paul, a Texas Libertarian that ran as a Republican.
And then there were neo-cons during the GW Bush administrations, a whole nother matter of insane politics. Trump wants the US....they wanted the world.

In the Democrat party, there is the Socialist turned Democrat Bernie Sanders and the Republican turned Liberal Democrat Elizabeth Warren.

Obviously, party labels don't mean what they used to mean.


----------



## SeanLaurence

Here we go - the false equivalence. I am talking about vetting Trump and other mostly Republican candidates for past criminal acts: money laundering, tax evasion, sexual assault..... 
I know that you feel strongly that "socialism" is bad, but, other than policies that you disagree with, have you seen evidence of criminality with Bernie or Elizabeth?


----------



## Couriant

SeanLaurence said:


> Here we go - the false equivalence. I am talking about vetting Trump and other mostly Republican candidates for past criminal acts: money laundering, tax evasion, sexual assault.....
> I know that you feel strongly that "socialism" is bad, but, other than policies that you disagree with, have you seen evidence of criminality with Bernie or Elizabeth?


Clearly they don't... and then all the media outlets gave Trump the platform and airtime that he shouldn't have had, which then made the supporters choose him over an actual politician.

I am sure that he made some assurances/claims/deals to get to become president then flaked.


----------



## Wino

I'm hopeful that had Trump run as a Dem. he would have been rejected. The left prefers people with an IQ higher than the candidates age.  He fits the right like an expensive calfskin glove.


----------



## Johnny b

SeanLaurence said:


> Here we go - the false equivalence. I am talking about vetting Trump and other mostly Republican candidates for past criminal acts: money laundering, tax evasion, sexual assault.....
> I know that you feel strongly that "socialism" is bad, but, other than policies that you disagree with, have you seen evidence of criminality with Bernie or Elizabeth?


Trust me. I can throw out logical fallacies, too.
Mine have meaning ( .. )



> I am talking about vetting Trump


What part of 'none that I'm aware of' has you in a quandary?



> money laundering, tax evasion, sexual assault.....


This was already known of Trump literally decades before becoming President.
And even add racism.
It was already public knowledge going back to 1973.



> I know that you feel strongly that "socialism" is bad,


Yes. That's the reason for your post full of (shudder) fallacies?
True, I'm not in favor of conversion to socialism as a policy, economically or socially.
If you haven't noticed, none of what I post, have posted or about to post, goes against a principle I embrace-----> pragmatism.
There was a time in the distant past when conservative Republicans included that in their political beliefs.

Not today.
Our society is in a survival mode and needs the help of government intervention to survive. 
While you 'may' see that as policy, I see it as a necessity at this time, and to address what needs to be corrected.

Here we go with a logical fallacy.
( I did caution you  )

The question I addressed was:


> Do republicans not vet the candidates that run for office?


The answer is still 'none that I know of'.

You also made a statement in post https://forums.techguy.org/threads/the-trump-term-of-office.1183765/post-9775356


> I am talking about vetting Trump and other mostly Republican candidates for past criminal acts: money laundering, tax evasion, sexual assault.....


^^^^
The switch. A change

Bait and switch---->sometimes called a red herring.

Your true focus?


> have you seen evidence of criminality with Bernie or Elizabeth?


You want to compare?
Somehow justify socialism?
Or just want to know how I feel?

Answer....I don't like Trump ( no surprise there ) and I don't like Warren or Sanders. ( but you already knew that )
I wouldn't vote for any of the three.
Trump is merely worse than Warren and Sanders LOL!


----------



## Couriant

Johnny b said:


> Answer....I don't like Trump ( no surprise there ) and I don't like Warren or Sanders. ( but you already knew that )
> I wouldn't vote for any of the three.
> Trump is merely worse than Warren and Sanders LOL!


curious ... If these were the choices... and no one else... and you can't say no-one... who would you choose (the lesser of 3 'evils')?


----------



## Johnny b

Couriant said:


> Clearly they don't... and then all the media outlets gave Trump the platform and airtime that he shouldn't have had, which then made the supporters choose him over an actual politician.
> 
> I am sure that he made some assurances/claims/deals to get to become president then flaked.


Trump was the grandest of manipulators.
A maleficent opportunist all his life.
He sold a never ending stream of lies that appealed to much of the worst of humanity.

I suspect much of his influence in Congress amounted to bullying and the promise of power if he was supported.

To be clear, with Trump, I don't think it's a matter of capitalism over socialism.
It's about criminality.


----------



## Johnny b

Couriant said:


> curious ... If these were the choices... and no one else... and you can't say no-one... who would you choose (the lesser of 3 'evils')?


Ah....the 'If' game 

I'd write in my own name 

BTW. I didn't vote the Presidential ticket in 2016.
I did vote for Biden in 2020.


----------



## Tabvla

Johnny b said:


> Time for some 'dark humor'.
> OK, you just have to laff at this.
> 
> Friendship and loyalty, Trump style.
> 
> * Report: 'Isolated And Angry' Trump Refuses To Pay Rudy Giuliani For Legal Work *
> https://www.yahoo.com/huffpost/trump-wont-pay-rudy-giuliani-election-legal-work-032513094.html
> 
> * Trump is isolated and angry at aides for failing to defend him as he is impeached again *
> https://www.washingtonpost.com/poli...95675a-55b6-11eb-a931-5b162d0d033d_story.html
> 
> LOL...it's all Rudy's fault


Now that could be a BIG mistake.... personally I would not upset Rudy, what he knows must be worth much more than $20K a day to whoever bids the highest...... "..... _*Giuliani Tells All*_ ....". That will go straight to the top of the best-sellers list....♨...

T.


----------



## Johnny b

Wino said:


> I'm hopeful that had Trump run as a Dem. he would have been rejected. The left prefers people with an IQ higher than the candidates age.  He fits the right like an expensive calfskin glove.


That's pretty much why Trump traded badges.
Not enough haters.
I also suspect many see Trump other than a politician, or they wouldn't be worshiping him ( in the religious sense )


----------



## Couriant

Johnny b said:


> Ah....the 'If' game
> 
> I'd write in my own name
> 
> BTW. I didn't vote the Presidential ticket in 2016.
> I did vote for Biden in 2020.


still didn't answer my question


----------



## Couriant

Tabvla said:


> Now that could be a BIG mistake.... personally I would not upset Rudy, what he knows must be worth much more than $20K a day to whoever bids the highest...... "..... _*Giuliani Tells All*_ ....". That will go straight to the top of the best-sellers list....♨...
> 
> T.


I wouldn't trust anything he says to be honest.


----------



## Johnny b

Couriant said:


> still didn't answer my question


It's a faulty 'If game'.
Not going to.

For Trump to even be on an upcoming ballot is highly unlikely and unreasonable.
For an 'If game' that works, you need to build a reality that supports your 'game'.
And that wouldn't be the current reality.

Do I want to play your 'If game'?
Maybe.
But you need to set the stage with a reality to consider.

Currently, I would NOT vote for any of the three.
In a modified setting ( ? ) I probably wouldn't either.
I'm like that. 
I see 'game over' with any one of your choices.
Just a matter of sooner or later, more or less violent.

Make me one of the choices and you might find me more agreeable.
LOL!


----------



## Couriant

Johnny b said:


> It's a faulty 'If game'.
> Not going to.
> 
> For Trump to even be on an upcoming ballot is highly unlikely and unreasonable.
> For an 'If game' that works, you need to build a reality that supports your 'game'.
> And that wouldn't be the current reality.
> 
> Do I want to play your 'If game'?
> Maybe.
> But you need to set the stage with a reality to consider.
> 
> Currently, I would NOT vote for any of the three.
> In a modified setting ( ? ) I probably wouldn't either.
> I'm like that.
> I see 'game over' with any one of your choices.
> Just a matter of sooner or later, more or less violent.
> 
> Make me one of the choices and you might find me more agreeable.
> LOL!


It's not like a F M K scenario... haha.

plus you are no fun... just asking for a hypothetical on who you would choose base on what you know on the those...  OK let me think of some people...


----------



## Johnny b

Couriant said:


> It's not like a F M K scenario... haha.
> 
> plus you are no fun... just asking for a hypothetical on who you would choose base on what you know on the those...  OK let me think of some people...


I had to google 'F M K scenario' lol!
Wikipedia seemed to infer a lot of sex and violence 

I don't think the three options you provided will work.
So, go ahead, state your rules! LOL!


----------



## Couriant

I thought FMK was common... oh well.  anyways i will need to figure out some people to see who you would vote for...


----------



## Johnny b

Couriant said:


> I thought FMK was common... oh well.  anyways i will need to figure out some people to see who you would vote for...


If you included Biden, I could blindly play the 'game' 
Or Mitt Romney. Or perhaps Larry Hogan.
I simply don't like extremists at either end of the political spectrum.

But no one ever seems to want to play my game 

And with that I give you why being reasonable, may no longer be relevant.

* For some Christians, the Capitol riot doesn't change the prophecy: Trump will be president *
https://www.washingtonpost.com/reli...s-christian-prophesy-trump-won-biden-capitol/

It's a long and disturbing read.
Voting no longer matters.


----------



## Wino

Trump has surely ripped the scab off radical right wing kooks or flipped over that flat rock exposing the rights ugliness that has always fermented just under the radar looking for a messiah - and they found him.


----------



## Johnny b

Wino said:


> Trump has surely ripped the scab off radical right wing kooks or flipped over that flat rock exposing the rights ugliness that has always fermented just under the radar looking for a messiah - and they found him.


Indeed.
We've become a nation of the mentally ill.


----------



## Johnny b

Time for a little more humor.

It's all about toilets.

*Trump Administration Concludes Appropriately With Toilet Scandal *
https://slate.com/news-and-politics...nka-barred-secret-service-using-bathroom.html

What's odd is......there really is a toilet scandal. 

* The $3,000-a-month toilet for the Ivanka Trump/Jared Kushner Secret Service detail *
https://www.washingtonpost.com/dc-m...-service-bathroom-ivanka-trump-jared-kushner/

LOL!....Bathroom humor.....:up:


----------



## Johnny b

Another issue to watch for.....a previous transfer of bitcoins to rightwing activists from a foreign source.

* Exclusive: Large bitcoin payments to right-wing activists a month before Capitol riot linked to foreign account *
https://news.yahoo.com/exclusive-la...riot-linked-to-foreign-account-181954668.html



> On Dec. 8, someone made a simultaneous transfer of 28.15 bitcoins - worth more than $500,000 at the time - to 22 different virtual wallets, most of them belonging to prominent right-wing organizations and personalities.
> ...................
> 
> Right-wing figures and websites, including VDARE, the Daily Stormer and Nick Fuentes, received generous donations from a bitcoin account linked to a French cryptocurrency exchange, according to research done by software company Chainalysis, which maintains a repository of information about public cryptocurrency exchanges and whose tools aid in government, law enforcement and private sector investigations.


----------



## Johnny b

A graph of the bitcoin transfers:

https://blog.chainalysis.com/reports/capitol-riot-bitcoin-donation-alt-right-domestic-extremism









edit:

Time line of bitcoin transfers to extremists:


----------



## Johnny b

Investigation likely of Trump, for his part in trying to interfere in the Georgia election results:

* Atlanta Prosecutor Appears to Move Closer to Trump Inquiry *
https://www.nytimes.com/2021/01/15/us/politics/atlanta-prosecutor-trump-election.html



> Prosecutors in Georgia appear increasingly likely to open a criminal investigation of President Trump over his attempts to overturn the results of the state's 2020 election, an inquiry into offenses that would be beyond his federal pardon power.


----------



## Johnny b

Sure, a trumper could claim it's only an opinion article, but....it looks pretty accurate.
I could almost feel sorry for the guy ....if only he were human.

* Trump Is on the Verge of Losing Everything *
https://nymag.com/intelligencer/2021/01/donald-trump-after-presidency.html



> At noon on January 20, Trump will be in desperate shape. His business is floundering, his partners are fleeing, his loans are delinquent, prosecutors will be coming after him, and the legal impunity he enjoyed through his office will be gone. He will be walking naked into a cold and friendless world. What appeared to be a brilliant strategy for escaping consequences was merely a tactic for putting them off. The bill is coming due.


But then, if he'd been human, I suspect those trials and tribulations necessary for becoming an American dictator, wouldn't have occurred. 

Trump is a failure.


----------



## Johnny b

Looks like The Donald is taking down his family with himself at the same time.

* Manhattan DA expands criminal investigation into Trump Organization finances to include family compound in Westchester County *
https://www.cnn.com/2021/01/15/poli...zation-family-compound-westchester/index.html



> Prosecutors' interest in the 212-acre property called Seven Springs is a significant widening of an investigation that began more than a year ago. It also draws closer to President Donald Trump's son Eric Trump, executive vice president of the Trump Organization, who was directly involved in discussions about the property now under scrutiny, according to court filings.


Poor Eric


----------



## Johnny b

A few words from Jill Harth.
( caution, some explicit language and imagery )

* "After Me, Baby, You're Gonna Be Ruined for Anyone Else": Donald Trump Refused to Take 'No' From Women-And Then From America Itself *
https://www.vanityfair.com/news/202...ke-no-from-women-and-then-from-america-itself

I see a lot of TV mini series in the making lol!
Looks like Epstein will be a character of note also.

( potential subtitle )
Family values? We don' need no stinkin' values.


----------



## Wino

I wish only the worst for the ex-first family and clan. Pay back can be tough on born losers. The damage these miscreants did to this nation is unforgiveable and they should suffer the consequences. I have no sympathy for them and no magnanimity.


----------



## Johnny b

Interesting comment from Lindsey Graham.

* Lindsey Graham to Donald Trump: 'Keep your movement alive' *
https://www.usatoday.com/story/news...guration-donald-trump-impeachment/4196264001/

Come on Lindsey, just come out and with clarity and commitment, admit you support the overthrow of the Government, our Constitution and in general, everything that's good and righteous.

What a weasel.


----------



## 2twenty2

Misinformation dropped dramatically the week after Twitter banned Trump

https://www.seattletimes.com/nation...atically-the-week-after-twitter-banned-trump/


----------



## Johnny b

No surprises here:

* Records: Trump allies behind rally that ignited Capitol riot *
https://www.daytondailynews.com/nat...ited-capitol-riot/URW5Y5F7KVB6ROGLALMAMHQJUM/



> An Associated Press review of records finds that veterans of President Donald Trump's failed campaign were key players in the Washington rally that spawned a deadly assault on the U.S. Capitol


https://apnews.com/article/election...ns-elections-d14c78d53b3a212658223252fec87e99

No matter what happens in the next few days, history will still record Trump, his allies and followers as traitors to the American way of life, a free and democratic society.


----------



## ekim68

Misinformation dropped dramatically the week after Twitter banned Trump 



> Online misinformation about election fraud plunged 73 percent after several social media sites suspended President Donald Trump and key allies last week, research firm Zignal Labs has found, underscoring the power of tech companies to limit the falsehoods poisoning public debate when they act aggressively.


----------



## Johnny b

* Trump to issue around 100 pardons and commutations Tuesday, sources say *
https://edition.cnn.com/2021/01/17/politics/trump-pardons-expected/index.html


> The expectation among allies is that Trump will issue pardons that he could benefit from post presidency.
> "Everything is a transaction. He likes pardons because it is unilateral. And he likes doing favors for people he thinks will owe him," one source familiar with the matter said.
> 
> ................
> CNN previously reported there has been a crush of pardon requests during Trump's final days in office from allies, lobbyists and others hoping to cash in on their loyalty to Trump. The New York Times reported Sunday some of those people were getting paid tens of thousands of dollars to lobby on behalf of felons hoping for pardons.


* Prospect of Pardons in Final Days Fuels Market to Buy Access to Trump *
https://www.nytimes.com/2021/01/17/us/politics/trump-pardons.html


> As President Trump prepares to leave office in days, a lucrative market for pardons is coming to a head, with some of his allies collecting fees from wealthy felons or their associates to push the White House for clemency, according to documents and interviews with more than three dozen lobbyists and lawyers.
> 
> The brisk market for pardons reflects the access peddling that has defined Mr. Trump's presidency as well as his unorthodox approach to exercising unchecked presidential clemency powers.


----------



## Wino

The orange bag of pus has departed for Mar-A-Lardo. May he live in infamy for the rest of his putrid life.


----------



## Couriant

I was going to put this in Wacky Criminals thread but...


----------



## valis

Couriant said:


> I was going to put this in Wacky Criminals thread but...
> 
> View attachment 284570


For that we need an Idiot of the Day thread.


----------



## Tabvla

It is over.

For four years this Thread has provided an almost daily view of one of the most disruptive periods in US history since the Civil War. This Thread serves as a reminder that we take for granted, at our peril, that which we value.

I take this opportunity to sincerely thank all who contributed to this Thread. Whether you only Posted once or whether you Posted almost every day; whether your views were to the Left or to the Right or somewhere in the middle or whether you had no view at all.... your Post(s) mattered; your opinion mattered.

Thanks to TSG for providing a platform where we can exchange our views without fear.

T.


----------



## Couriant

Tabvla said:


> It is over.
> 
> For four years this Thread has provided an almost daily view of one of the most disruptive periods in US history since the Civil War. This Thread serves as a reminder that we take for granted, at our peril, that which we value.
> 
> I take this opportunity to sincerely thank all who contributed to this Thread. Whether you only Posted once or whether you Posted almost every day; whether your views were to the Left or to the Right or somewhere in the middle or whether you had no view at all.... your Post(s) mattered; your opinion mattered.
> 
> Thanks to TSG for providing a platform where we can exchange our views without fear.
> 
> T.


Do you want this to be closed now, or leave it open for those who have more things to talk about his term in office?


----------



## Wino

I vote keep open or start another thread "Babblings of Trump Ex-Prez"🤪


----------



## Johnny b

I'd like to see this thread stay open.

Trump isn't really 'gone'.
He just no longer has the ultimate power he used to have, but potentially a lot of political influence in the future.


----------



## SeanLaurence

To Reca


Tabvla said:


> There are two questions that Forum Members might like to think about and then give their view.
> 
> Q1. How many days will Trump serve as US President?
> Q2. For what reason will his presidency be ended?
> 
> ------------------------- Some info to help answer the questions -------------------------
> 
> Minimum number of days : 1 day
> Maximum number of days : 2,922 days (8 x 365 + 2)
> 
> Possible reasons for presidency to be terminated (in Alphabetical order)
> 
> Completes both terms and therefore must leave office
> Completes first term and does not get re-elected
> Impeachment
> Loses the support of the Republican Party
> Resignation due to perceived threat of danger
> Resignation due to personal issues
> Scandals


It seems that he served the maximum number of days, But "Twice impeached but allowed to complete his first term" was not on the list of possible outcomes.


----------



## Johnny b

Couriant said:


> Do you want this to be closed now, or leave it open for those who have more things to talk about his term in office?


It used to be no one oughtright owned the threads they started.
What is the current policy?


----------



## SeanLaurence

Johnny b said:


> I'd like to see this thread stay open.
> 
> Trump isn't really 'gone'.
> He just no longer has the ultimate power he used to have, but potentially a lot of political influence in the future.


I hope you are wrong. I can't think of a reason why his social media accounts will ever be restored. With that muzzle on, he may well have a hard time maintaining support.
Also, he may be preoccupied with dealing with legal issues for the foreseeable future.
Who will be his lawyer? He has stiffed Giuliani, and many prior lawyers. 
His businesses were based on his brand, which is now worth less than nothing (IMO)
He won't even be able to raise money doing money laundering with shady oligarchs.


----------



## Johnny b

I hope I'm wrong also, Sean.

Biden won the election, but there are some 70 million crazies led by destructive political activists, bizarre cultist and militia types and it's likely such elements will create problems in the future ......and Trump's imagery fits well as an all inclusive banner.


----------



## Couriant

Johnny b said:


> It used to be no one oughtright owned the threads they started.
> What is the current policy?


The thread starter can close if they wish, but we can start a Post-Trump thread like a continuation  I wanted to check with the Thread Starter as it seemed they were done with the thread.


----------



## Wino

Close it when Trump is dead and gone. He will be an irritant until that day fomenting unrest in this nation at which time I expect his spore will try to pick up the mantle - Uday, Qusay or Irvanka.


----------



## Tabvla

Couriant said:


> Do you want this to be closed now, or leave it open for those who have more things to talk about his term in office?


James, whatever the Forum Members who contributed to this Thread want to do. The title of this Thread is "The Trump Term of Office" and for me that "Term" is over.

This morning we all woke up to a new day; a new beginning; a new reality and above all a new understanding to appreciate and protect the values that we live by.

The Trump era is past tense.

T.


----------



## Couriant

Tabvla said:


> James, whatever the Forum Members who contributed to this Thread want to do. The title of this Thread is "The Trump Term of Office" and for me that "Term" is over.
> 
> This morning we all woke up to a new day; a new beginning; a new reality and above all a new understanding to appreciate and protect the values that we live by.
> 
> The Trump era is past tense.
> 
> T.


No worries! I will leave as is.


----------



## Johnny b

Trump, while President, funded the attempted insurrection on Jan 6th.

* Trump paid Capitol rally organizers over $2.7 million *
https://news.yahoo.com/trump-paid-capitol-rally-organizers-180118672.html

* Organizers of Trump Rally Had Been on Campaign's Payroll *
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/arti...paid-organizers-of-pre-riot-rally-2-7-million


----------



## Johnny b

Megyn Kelly blames main stream media for the insurrection on Jan6.
She claims news, reporting of the crimes of Trump and his followers, created a bias, thus losing their 'objectivity'.

In other words, the criminals aren't to blame for committing their crimes, it's the reporting of the crimes and the participants, that caused them to commit more crime.

That is just so lame.
And it's even funnier when you consider Trump was trying to sell himself as a 'law and order' President leading up to the election.
It's been reported Trump even helped fund the attack on Congress.

Just blame it all on the 'liberal' press 

https://www.usatoday.com/story/ente...ia-hatred-trump-part-capitol-riot/6694670002/


----------



## Wino

> One source said Trump feels "people are working to downgrade his legacy out of hatred."


Finally, something I find agreeable from the ex-Liar-In-Chief.

Although I'm a bit confused as to how one down grades an absolute abysmally incoherent legacy!!


----------



## Johnny b

Sign of bad times on the rise.

* Feds tracking plans to attack members of Congress during Trump impeachment, AP reports *
https://www.usatoday.com/story/news...w-attacks-congress-officials-fear/6698747002/


----------



## SeanLaurence

Johnny b said:


> Sign of bad times on the rise.
> 
> * Feds tracking plans to attack members of Congress during Trump impeachment, AP reports *
> https://www.usatoday.com/story/news...w-attacks-congress-officials-fear/6698747002/


Interesting game of cat and mouse. By leaking that they are watching these insurgents, Feds would be hoping they may see the futility in any attacks and stay home.


----------



## Johnny b

Yeah....if those crazy people were rational lol!


----------



## Wino

It will cow the gutless republicans. Another form of quid pro quo - don't convict and we won't kill you and your loved ones. They will bow to the threats rather than save our nation.🤬 Pseudo patriots all.


----------



## SeanLaurence

Should have impeached Nixon - And prosecuted.


----------



## Johnny b

Wino said:


> It will cow the gutless republicans. Another form of quid pro quo - don't convict and we won't kill you and your loved ones. They will bow to the threats rather than save our nation.🤬 Pseudo patriots all.


That's another characteristic of a third world banana republic.
In our case, that would be the militias becoming death squads.


----------



## Wino

JB - I see Portman is not going to run. You gonna vote for Gym Jordan?? or the Dem commie?🤪


----------



## Johnny b

Wino said:


> JB - I see Portman is not going to run. You gonna vote for Gym Jordan?? or the Dem commie?🤪


Like a 'never' Trumper.....a never 'gym' Jordan. 

I just hope the Dems run someone I can vote for.

Reality.
Tea Party is strong in Ohio. And with that comes fascism.
Militias, Qanon, neo-nazi and KKK also have a presence. 
And then there are the Libertarian anarchists.

And a lot of states seem similar.

The future doesn't look good, Wayne.


----------



## Wino

Johnny b said:


> Like a 'never' Trumper.....a never 'gym' Jordan.
> 
> I just hope the Dems run someone I can vote for.
> 
> Reality.
> Tea Party is strong in Ohio. And with that comes fascism.
> Militias, Qanon, neo-nazi and KKK also have a presence.
> And then there are the Libertarian anarchists.
> 
> And a lot of states seem similar.
> 
> The future doesn't look good, Wayne.


Seems a mirror of Texas! We are so screwed!!


----------



## Johnny b

OMG....this thread is far from over.
I'd 'LOL' but the craziness is far and away greater than dark humor.

Qanaon cultists believe Trump will be inaugurated in March 4th and it seems Qanon and the Sovereign Citizen movement are merging/sharing ideas to some extent.

* 
QAnon Thinks Trump Will Become President Again on March 4th*
https://www.vice.com/en/article/88akpx/qanon-thinks-trump-will-become-president-again-on-march-4

Just more nutjobs.


> Sovereign citizens believe that a law enacted in 1871 secretly turned the U.S. into a corporation and did away with the American government of the founding fathers. The group also believes that President Franklin D. Roosevelt sold U.S. citizens out in 1933 when he ended the gold standard and replaced it by offering citizens as collateral to a group of shadowy foreign investors.
> Sovereigns use indecipherable legal filings based on arcane texts to separate themselves from the legal entities the government has supposedly created in their name in order to sell to investors.


also:
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/...ump-march-sovereign-citizen-fbi-b1792830.html

LOL?


----------



## Johnny b

More strange news.

Apparently no one told Trump that the Proud Boys leader was a government informant.
OK...this is funny LOL!!!!

* Proud Boys leader was government informant, records show *
https://news.yahoo.com/proud-boys-leader-government-informant-235312526.html



> The leader of the Proud Boys, who was arrested in Washington shortly before the Capitol riot, previously worked undercover and cooperated with investigators after he was accused of fraud in 2012, court documents show.
> 
> Henry "Enrique" Tarrio helped law enforcement in a variety of investigations nearly a decade ago by providing information and going undercover, the records show.


So, was he a double agent, or a triple agent?

Either way, I suspect his circle of 'friends' has shrunk.


----------



## Johnny b

Interesting article at NY Times.

Apparently some radical militias are abandoning Trump.
Looks like they feel Trump reneged on his promises and failed to meet their expectations.

* 'A Total Failure': The Proud Boys Now Mock Trump *
https://www.nytimes.com/2021/01/20/technology/proud-boys-trump.html


> Members of the far-right group, who were among Donald Trump's staunchest fans, are calling him "weak" as more of them were charged for storming the U.S. Capitol.


----------



## Wino

I'm generally not into "conspiracy" stuff, but I found the following link to fit the Trump cabal and MO to a tee!
Planning sedition and treason by usual suspects.

https://sethabramson.substack.com/p...XArVy-zkQTxSwPHt-M6WrR8heGbVCViUARyK5iM9ts2PU

Excerpt:



> Well after dark on January 5, 2021-just 15 hours before an insurrection against the United States government incited by the President of the United States-Nebraska Republican *Charles W. Herbster*, at the time the National Chairman of the Agriculture and Rural Advisory Committee for the Trump administration, attended a private meeting of Trump family members, Trump administration officials, Trump campaign advisers, January 6 organizers, and at least one member of the United States Senate at Trump International Hotel in Washington.


----------



## Johnny b

Wino said:


> I'm generally not into "conspiracy" stuff, but I found the following link to fit the Trump cabal and MO to a tee!
> Planning sedition and treason by usual suspects.
> 
> https://sethabramson.substack.com/p...XArVy-zkQTxSwPHt-M6WrR8heGbVCViUARyK5iM9ts2PU
> 
> Excerpt:


Interesting find.

As you inferred, nothing unexpected.
But it is interesting how casual, those participating, and open they were.
It's an issue of impunity. 
Trump expressed the same trait all 4 years of his administration.


----------



## Johnny b

Covid-19 and the legacy of Trump:

* Biden team scrambles to find 20m vaccine doses Trump reportedly failed to track
*
https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2021/jan/30/us-covid-vaccine-doses-biden-trump

Too much to copy and paste.
Basically, the Trump Administration ignored the process of distribution.
So now there are problematic shortages at vaccination sites as the Biden teams search for shipping information to locate missing production.


----------



## Brigham

Who is this Trump person?


----------



## Wino

Brigham said:


> Who is this Trump person?


The Scourge of America.


----------



## ekim68

As an aside....

Oklahoma trying to return its $2m stockpile of hydroxychloroquine



> The Oklahoma Attorney General's Office has been tasked with attempting to return a $2 million stockpile of a malaria drug once touted by former President Donald Trump as a way to treat the coronavirus.


----------



## Wino

Hope FFF tells Oklahoma to go pound sand. That's what they get for believing a lying dip with no medical degree or any sense a'tall !!


----------



## valis

Wino said:


> Hope FFF tells Oklahoma to go pound sand. That's what they get for believing a lying dip with no medical degree or any sense a'tall !!


FFF?


----------



## Johnny b

I was afraid to ask


----------



## Cookiegal

In the article it says FFF Enterprises is where the medication was acquired.


----------



## Wino

My reputation precedes me ?? LOL

I learned my lesson some years back regarding acronyms getting a three day suspension from TSG.


----------



## Johnny b

A long article.

*How Trump's words before the Capitol riot were amplified and echoed*
https://www.usatoday.com/in-depth/n...ot-speech-parler-talk-grew-darker/4297165001/



> Text analysis shows calls for civil war intensified on the right-leaning social media app Parler as Trump urged his followers to march on the Capitol.


----------



## Wino

Trump was stirring this stew for months. Intensified after election and consummated on Jan. 06, 2021 at his behest. He is a seditionist treasonous traitor to USA and tried his best to destroy this nation - and he's not done yet.🤬


----------



## Johnny b

Wino said:


> Trump was stirring this stew for months. Intensified after election and consummated on Jan. 06, 2021 at his behest. He is a seditionist treasonous traitor to USA and tried his best to destroy this nation - and he's not done yet.🤬


He has created so many wrongs, it's become impossible for me to understand how so many people still support him.
The GOP has become a dangerous weird and militant cult.


----------



## Wino

So stoner, how do you plan to celebrate on June 14th Trump Day in Ohio???🤪


----------



## Johnny b

I'm not sure lol!

That is strange beyond all imagination.
The Nation has been severely damaged, our society is in conflict, Covid-19 is about to get
get worse with new variants and the promised vaccines aren't reaching the public.

What was it we were supposed to celebrate?
The guy that caused all that?

hmmmm.


----------



## valis

Cookiegal said:


> In the article it says FFF Enterprises is where the medication was acquired.


reason i asked.....my sobriquet, valis, is a novel (one of a trilogy) written by Philip K. Dick.....it eventually became a separate novel, but in Valis FFF stands for the POTUS at the time, Ferris F. Fremont......FFF, or, using numbers, 666. PKD did not care for Nixon, shall we say, and was repeatedly investigated by the FBI....hence my curiousity regarding the FFF.....


----------



## Cookiegal

valis said:


> reason i asked.....my sobriquet, valis, is a novel (one of a trilogy) written by Philip K. Dick.....it eventually became a separate novel, but in Valis FFF stands for the POTUS at the time, Ferris F. Fremont......FFF, or, using numbers, 666. PKD did not care for Nixon, shall we say, and was repeatedly investigated by the FBI....hence my curiousity regarding the FFF.....


No need to explain Tim.


----------



## valis

Cookiegal said:


> No need to explain Tim.


Lol...i see...


----------



## Wino

Well, it appears that Trump will become the first president (that I'm aware) that will no longer have access to intel or any other reports due to his being unqualified and erratic behavior and being a traitor to the nation. He certainly has obtain a lot of "first" in our history.


----------



## Johnny b

It is ironic that reports he never read will become off limits.


----------



## Johnny b

This could get very interesting:

* Parler's ownership offer to Trump and possible Russian ties probed by Congress *
https://arstechnica.com/tech-policy...and-possible-russian-ties-probed-by-congress/



> *Committee seeks info on financial ties to Russians, negotiations with Trump org.*


edit:

https://oversight.house.gov/news/pr...related-to-parler-s-financing-ties-to-foreign

and:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/technology/2020/10/07/russian-trolls-graphika-parler-gab/


----------



## Wino

Trump to speak at CPAC. I'm all anxious to hear what line of crap and lies he has to spew like a burst sewer line. His words mean nothing to the sane.


----------



## Johnny b

Wino said:


> Trump to speak at CPAC. I'm all anxious to hear what line of crap and lies he has to spew like a burst sewer line. His words mean nothing to the sane.


It'll be the same rhetoric Trump spewed this summer/leading up to his sedition, a lot of whining about a 'stolen election' and claims of being targeted with one conspiracy after another.
It will focus on appealing to the Qanon cult, Tea Party fascists, Libertarian anarchists, white supremacists, militant militias and the fundamentalists parading as the moral majority.
It's the current party line.

Try looking for something new  



> His words mean nothing to the sane.


Agreed, but look at scary size of his wild eyed followers.

I suspect one day we'll see another book by Trump ( actually, he had little input in his first ) this time with a title: 'My Struggle'. Sound familiar?
It will likely sell well.


----------



## Johnny b

Leftover strangeness from the Trump insurrection.
The whole article needs to be read ( for context  ) and the conclusion of the article is a climax to the strangeness.

* Capitol riot: Attorney claims area suspect was mistreated, forced to remain naked while in local jail *
https://www.daytondailynews.com/new...ile-in-local-jail/FYN7XTYNBVFN5MLJULFPBWHMBE/


----------



## Tabvla

A few questions to ponder.....

Is Trump really "the problem"...? Or is Trump nothing more than a marionette...? Trump might think that he is "The King", but in reality he might be nothing more than a pawn in a game of chess that is being played on a global stage. Is this the political equivalent of the Sicilian Najdorf...?

There are times when one might feel that one in Kevin Flynn of Tron.

T.


----------



## Johnny b

Tabvla said:


> A few questions to ponder.....
> 
> Is Trump really "the problem"...? Or is Trump nothing more than a marionette...? Trump might think that he is "The King", but in reality he might be nothing more than a pawn in a game of chess that is being played on a global stage. Is this the political equivalent of the Sicilian Najdorf...?
> 
> There are times when one might feel that one in Kevin Flynn of Tron.
> 
> T.


Good question.

Imo, Trump is many things, a panderer for one. It goes along with being an opportunist.
In his case, a malevolent opportunist that presents himself as a populist.
His weakness. though, is manipulating from a minority position.
He likely will never lead a majority, but by creating dissension with in a society, he can create a plurality that can assume power.
An extreme example would be pre WW ll Germany.

The 'global stage'......important, indeed.
Trump needed an outside source to propagandize the lead up to the 2016 election, and Russia became that vehicle, obviously for their own benefit as the dissension Trump created would increase their own standing in the world.
Many seem to forget that Putin was at one time, KGB and is now effectively a 'president for life' and with that goes push back by Navalny.
Trump has expressed sentiments of acceptance for the concept.

Is Trump also a pawn? Yeah. He's not the only one, though. Elements of Congress have also followed Trump's path to power and still do so today.

The result is....a large segment of our society thinks they retain their freedoms under dictatorships and authoritarian rule.
Same old affliction. They think they can trade freedoms for a little more comfort and security.



> Is this the political equivalent of the Sicilian Najdorf...?


Well, the Russians have long been known for their chess acumen.
(edit) They play the long game.


----------



## Couriant

Wino said:


> Trump to speak at CPAC. I'm all anxious to hear what line of crap and lies he has to spew like a burst sewer line. His words mean nothing to the sane.


Probably more of the same bs...and the scary part is that his words will mean something those who are delusional to listen.


----------



## SeanLaurence

Tabvla said:


> A few questions to ponder.....
> 
> Is Trump really "the problem"...? Or is Trump nothing more than a marionette...? Trump might think that he is "The King", but in reality he might be nothing more than a pawn in a game of chess that is being played on a global stage. Is this the political equivalent of the Sicilian Najdorf...?
> 
> There are times when one might feel that one in Kevin Flynn of Tron.
> 
> T.


I would say that he is the center of the problem. There is a a book describing how he has been a "Russian Asset" since 1987 - Something that is not much of a surprise to anyone, but at the same time difficult to prove.
https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/kgb-spy-russia/

The Russians helped get him elected and have poisoned much of the American electorate with misinformation. The GOP and Late Night Radio Conspiracy theorists have contributed to the craziness.

As he is a populist figure, the GOP has no-one to replace him that would garner the same level of adulation that he enjoys.


----------



## Johnny b

SeanLaurence said:


> ......................
> 
> As he is a populist figure, the GOP has no-one to replace him that would garner the same level of adulation that he enjoys.


Consider....

Russia made Trump in the political sense with a propaganda assault on the US.
This isn't conjecture or conspiracy theory.
That's a fact by way of Facebook/Twitter and smaller but similar social networks.
The GOP won't be the decision maker for Trump's replacement, they'll likely be the machinery that presents the next Russian favorite.

Men like Hawley, Cruz and Graham will become the new the torch carriers as Trump ages into mental oblivion.
A lot of cruel jokes were focused at Biden's mental abilities during the election.
But look at how much Trump's intellect slipped in just four years. As time passed, in front of cameras, his ability to speak in sentences degraded into increasing scattershot, often incoherent and filled with anger and hatred. Incredibly repetitious.
Trump will age himself out of leadership and I suspect the Russians are well aware of this.

These will be the coming days of competition for that Russian support.

But even the Russians have a problem.
Along with the GOP's elements that called for sedition and insurrection is the consideration of a coming split in the party with a spinoff to appease those extremist elements, reducing their influence as a lesser plurality.

Violence from that sector will likely increase to off set their lost influence.


----------



## SeanLaurence

Johnny b said:


> Consider....
> 
> Russia made Trump in the political sense with a propaganda assault on the US.
> This isn't conjecture or conspiracy theory.
> That's a fact by way of Facebook/Twitter and smaller but similar social networks.
> The GOP won't be the decision maker for Trump's replacement, they'll likely be the machinery that presents the next Russian favorite.
> 
> Men like Hawley, Cruz and Graham will become the new the torch carriers as Trump ages into mental oblivion.
> A lot of cruel jokes were focused at Biden's mental abilities during the election.
> But look at how much Trump's intellect slipped in just four years. As time passed, in front of cameras, his ability to speak in sentences degraded into increasing scattershot, often incoherent and filled with anger and hatred. Incredibly repetitious.
> Trump will age himself out of leadership and I suspect the Russians are well aware of this.
> 
> These will be the coming days of competition for that Russian support.
> 
> But even the Russians have a problem.
> Along with the GOP's elements that called for sedition and insurrection is the consideration of a coming split in the party with a spinoff to appease those extremist elements, reducing their influence as a lesser plurality.
> 
> Violence from that sector will likely increase to off set their lost influence.


I am far from having the mindset of a GOP supporter, but I fail to see anyone in the wings that could garner the support that Trump did. I do agree with you that Trump is unlikely to ever run again. He liked the idea of being president, but never wanted to do the job. Also, too old, and will be spending too much time in court over the next 4 years.

Will the GOP split? I can only hope. This might give the Dems a chance to pick up some supermajorities in 2024 and perhaps fix some really broken things - like turning the presidential election into a simple popular majority vote.


----------



## Johnny b

For a short time in history, propaganda can make anyone of mediocrity look superior.
Trump was never a mental genius and until his attacks on Obama, just another member of the privileged that jetsetted about and reveled in being recorded in Life and Look magazines.
Essentially, he had the perfect character traits to enthrall the masses with his opulance and 'bad boy' imagery. 
All the Ruskies had to do was stroke him and fabricate a political facade Trump could sell as a politician. Grandiose visions of a loved superhuman authoritarian.
It could be considered a 'fail' if the intent wasn't to crush the influence the US had in world politics and economics. For that, Trump was a success.



> I fail to see anyone in the wings that could garner the support that Trump did.


And yet, going back several decades, Trump had none of that support. Nor the imagery seen leading up to 2016.
He was a construct.

The next rightwing extremist won't be a 'Trump' buffoon.
IMO, he'll be more dangerous because he won't be broadcasting his intentions so openly.
He will have learned what not to do.
Nixon taught politicians the value of plausible deniability. Not by leveraging it. By ignoring the power of it. It was one of Trump's tools.



> Will the GOP split? I can only hope. This might give the Dems a chance to pick up some supermajorities in 2024 and perhaps fix some really broken things - like turning the presidential election into a simple popular majority vote.


LOL! I know why you cheer that split, it's the socialist in you .
Hopefully, if that 'super majority' does come into being, it doesn't polarize the public as much as the Clintons and Obama did.
That kind of 'fixing' only enhanced the Russian efforts and we wound up with a self serving malevolent opportunist as a president backed by rightwing extremists, cults and militant militias.

As much as right wing extremism doesn't work, neither does a socialist political/economic model. Mostly a trade off of authoritarian rulers. 
Both extremisms come and go taking turns through history.

But why worry? You're Canadian.


----------



## SeanLaurence

Johnny b said:


> But why worry? You're Canadian.


Even with the borders closed, American crazy leaks over the border.

You are suggesting that the Clinton and Obama administrations are responsible for polarizing the public?
Please explain? 
The Clintons were relentlessly attacked by the right.
I get the role of the opposing party to hold the ruling party to account, but the GOP attacks were over the top. My longstanding liberal leaning and former social worker mother thinks that HRC is a pedophile!!! Where did that come from?


----------



## Johnny b

SeanLaurence said:


> Even with the borders closed, American crazy leaks over the border.
> 
> You are suggesting that the Clinton and Obama administrations are responsible for polarizing the public?
> Please explain?
> The Clintons were relentlessly attacked by the right.
> I get the role of the opposing party to hold the ruling party to account, but the GOP attacks were over the top. My longstanding liberal leaning and former social worker mother thinks that HRC is a pedophile!!! Where did that come from?


Look at your post.
What's to explain?
You acknowledge there was polarization and demand I account for it?

------------>Ha!

From a practical pov:
Lefties don't like Righties.
Righties don't like Lefties.
And it doesn't take much to set either of them off 
Some just more than others.

Go read the BS Jack has been posting. It may be built upon distortions and misrepresentations, but those elements are initiated by positions of the Left and amplified to unrecognizable exaggeration.
While only a minority in the Democrat Party, Lefties like Sanders and AOL are obviously easy targets. 

BTW, I don't know anything about your mother so I have no idea where her opinions originate.
My mother was British. Both her and my father held similar ideas as myself.
Extremism is for the foolish. Pragmatism is a worthy trait.
Genetics?  ( JKing )


----------



## SeanLaurence

Johnny b said:


> Look at your post.
> What's to explain?
> You acknowledge there was polarization and demand I account for it?


From what I have read, the GOP is (almost) entirely responsible for the polarization in today's America. 
There may be systemic reasons as well. Also, disinformation originating from foreign sources.

Ever since the end of the Civil war when the electoral college was instituted as a rushed compromise to give more sparsely populated states greater influence on the national stage, America has been divided.

I just wonder why you think that the divisions are the fault of the contemporary Democratic party.


----------



## Johnny b

SeanLaurence said:


> From what I have read, the GOP is (almost) entirely responsible for the polarization in today's America.
> There may be systemic reasons as well. Also, disinformation originating from foreign sources.
> 
> Ever since the end of the Civil war when the electoral college was instituted as a rushed compromise to give more sparsely populated states greater influence on the national stage, America has been divided.
> 
> I just wonder why you think that the divisions are the fault of the contemporary Democratic party.


Like Jack, maybe you ought to be reading a more diverse menu of news media.



> I just wonder why you think that the divisions are the fault of the contemporary Democratic party.


Games of sophistry. Polarization is now a 'division'. meh.

There is an extreme division of thought between the extremes, Sean.
All it takes is a lesser position to irritate the disgruntled extremist.

An example:
When Obama signed off on ACA ( Obama Care ) he did it with out any input from the Republican element of Congress other than complaining. He had that super majority in Congress that you want to see again.
As passed, few on either side of the isle had even read all of it.
Pelosi had been quoted as saying errors would be corrected as it was being implemented.
Trust me when I say, the rightwingers hate Obama and anyone that helped push through that bill.

And yet, today, the US needs it. 
But the hate remains.

There is no way to rationalize hate.
All I can do is point it out.


----------



## Tabvla

There is something unnervingly weird taking place within the Republican Party. 

Trump is a loser. He lost the popular vote in 2016. He lost the Electoral College in 2020. He lost the popular vote in 2020. During his watch the GOP lost the House, the Senate and the Presidency. He lost the battle with COVID. He lost the economy. 75 million Americans went out and put a cross next to his name..... and now they build a golden pagan idol and pay homage to it by scrambling to be photographed with the golden loser.

That is weird. 

T.


----------



## Couriant

Tabvla said:


> There is something unnervingly weird taking place within the Republican Party.
> 
> Trump is a loser. He lost the popular vote in 2016. He lost the Electoral College in 2020. He lost the popular vote in 2020. During his watch the GOP lost the House, the Senate and the Presidency. He lost the battle with COVID. He lost the economy. 75 million Americans went out and put a cross next to his name..... and now they build a golden pagan idol and pay homage to it by scrambling to be photographed with the golden loser.
> 
> That is weird.
> 
> T.


To be fair... if he had lost the battle to COVID... he be dead...

But you are right, people still think he did no wrong... and that's scary.


----------



## Tabvla

Couriant said:


> To be fair... if he had lost the battle to COVID... he be dead...
> 
> But you are right, people still think he did no wrong... and that's scary.


Apologies for the misunderstanding, I did not mean the personal battle, I was referring to the half-million families that have lost a loved one.

T.


----------



## Johnny b

Mr 'Fake News' got a Covid-19 shot 

What a hypocrite.
It doesn't exist, it's all over, it's around the bend, but 'I'm a gonna secretly get the vaccine just to cover my own dumb posterior' 

'And good luck finding your own source' 

* Trump and his wife received coronavirus vaccine before leaving the White House. *
https://www.nytimes.com/2021/03/01/us/politics/donald-trump-melania-coronavirus-vaccine.html


----------



## Couriant

Tabvla said:


> Apologies for the misunderstanding, I did not mean the personal battle, I was referring to the half-million families that have lost a loved one.
> 
> T.


Ahh I understand now... no worries! But yes, he lost that long before it became a pandemic.... though I sometimes wonder if he was even a little competent in alerting the people to prevent this, would it have helped, or just slowed the inevitable?



Johnny b said:


> Mr 'Fake News' got a Covid-19 shot
> 
> What a hypocrite.
> ...


Don't forget, he would never get it because he's immune, and no one else would etither....


----------



## SeanLaurence

Tabvla said:


> There is something unnervingly weird taking place within the Republican Party.
> 
> Trump is a loser. He lost the popular vote in 2016. He lost the Electoral College in 2020. He lost the popular vote in 2020. During his watch the GOP lost the House, the Senate and the Presidency. He lost the battle with COVID. He lost the economy. 75 million Americans went out and put a cross next to his name..... and now they build a golden pagan idol and pay homage to it by scrambling to be photographed with the golden loser.
> 
> That is weird.
> 
> T.


You missed the Odal Rune shaped stage at CPAC.
Is the GOP the party of Nazi values? No Comment. 
Wink.


----------



## Johnny b

Trump: A never ending story. More like a nightmare.

* The Trump administration quietly spent billions in hospital funds on Operation Warp Speed *
https://www.statnews.com/2021/03/02...ns-in-hospital-funds-on-operation-warp-speed/



> The Trump administration quietly took around $10 billion from a fund meant to help hospitals and health care providers affected by Covid-19 and used the money to bankroll Operation Warp Speed contracts, four former Trump administration officials told STAT.
> 
> The Department of Health and Human Services appears to have used a financial maneuver that allowed officials to spend the money without telling Congress, and the agency got permission from its top lawyer to do so. Now, the Biden administration is refusing to say whether the outlay means there will be less money available for hospitals, physicians, nursing homes, and other providers.
> 
> ...............
> 
> The Trump White House's attitude was that agencies shouldn't ask Congress for more money until they spent the Covid-19 relief money they had already received, the former HHS official said. That same attitude also motivated the administration's active lobbying effort to deny states more funds to help distribute vaccines.
> ( * Trump officials actively lobbied to deny states money for vaccine rollout last fall  *
> https://www.statnews.com/2021/01/31...ied-to-deny-states-money-for-vaccine-rollout/ )


More details follow in article.

And to think there are elements in our society that want 4 more years of that attitude after the next presidential election


----------



## Wino

Trumpism is definitely a mental health issue.


----------



## Johnny b

Wino said:


> Trumpism is definitely a mental health issue.


I sat in front of my monitor reading your post and took a couple minutes trying to think up a response.
From the actions of his supporters at his rallies, those of the insurrection he led, even some of Congress now.....the only descriptor I could think of was....'barking mad'. Seriously.

That Qanon shaman positively tipped the scales towards mentally unhinged.


----------



## Couriant

Johnny b said:


> I sat in front of my monitor reading your post and took a couple minutes trying to think up a response.
> From the actions of his supporters at his rallies, those of the insurrection he led, even some of Congress now.....the only descriptor I could think of was....'barking mad'. Seriously.
> 
> *That Qanon shaman positively tipped the scales towards mentally unhinged.*


Not Marjorie Green?


----------



## Johnny b

Couriant said:


> Not Marjorie Green?


She does play the hate angle efficiently.
Crazy? Sure.
But cults like Q?.....lol.....a whole nuther reality


----------



## SeanLaurence

Johnny b said:


> I sat in front of my monitor reading your post and took a couple minutes trying to think up a response.
> From the actions of his supporters at his rallies, those of the insurrection he led, even some of Congress now.....the only descriptor I could think of was....'barking mad'. Seriously.
> 
> That Qanon shaman positively tipped the scales towards mentally unhinged.


The thing is: Jacob Chansley has seen the light now that he is facing charges.
https://www.abc27.com/news/i-was-wrong-period-qanon-shaman-apologizes-for-entering-capitol/

I wish I could say the same for the traitorous factions of the GOP.


----------



## Johnny b

Lots of common criminals in the US do the same every day lol.
They only repent after being caught


----------



## Couriant

SeanLaurence said:


> The thing is: Jacob Chansley has seen the light now that he is facing charges.
> ...


They never do until they get caught... lol


----------



## Couriant

Not sure where to post Trump News anymore.. so I will post here:

*Trump sent RNC a cease and desist letter... they denied it 🤪*
https://www.politico.com/news/2021/03/08/rnc-trump-cease-and-desist-474412


----------



## Wino

Trump whining he's not getting any or enough credit for basically doing nothing regarding CV19.


----------



## SeanLaurence

Well, the US numbers for case fatality % and deaths per 100 K are better than the UK - so he has Boris beat. 
Low bar, I know.

Belgium and Czechia are even worse than that.


----------



## Johnny b

Trump may be gone, but his racist traits live on in some members of the GOP presenting expressions of their own racist beliefs:

* Ron Johnson says Capitol attackers 'love this country' but he would have felt unsafe if Black Lives Matter stormed building instead *

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news...-black-lives-matter-called-racist/4674016001/

Of course he would have felt safer with the white insurrectionists, similar goals.
But there's a problem with crazy violent people. You never really know what they'll do next


----------



## Cookiegal

How about we change the title of this thread to something like:

The Trump Term of Office and Beyond? or 

The Trump Term of Office and After?


----------



## Johnny b

Either seems good to me.

Just throwing out an idea.
How about?

Trumpism---->Past, Present and Future

There was a recent article presenting the idea that the man himself, Trump, wasn't achieving the expectations of numerous analysts.

https://www.politico.com/news/2021/03/14/trump-post-presidency-475733

...............................

But, imo, his influence and goals still seem alive within other politicians.


----------



## Cookiegal

Maybe just "The Donald Trump Thread"? 'nuff said?


----------



## Johnny b

Works for me


----------



## Wino

How about "Trump - Scourge or Pestilence"


----------



## Johnny b

That works for me, too


----------



## valis

I vote for 'The Egomaniacal Idiot Who Ruined America - The Aftermath'


----------



## Wino

Works for me !


----------



## Johnny b

Works for me!


----------



## Cookiegal

I just changed it to "The Trump Thread".


----------



## Couriant

Well maybe we should have named in Drumpf since that is his family original name until they immigrated to the US... haha


----------



## Couriant

Wax Museum moves dummy after visitors are hitting it.


----------



## Johnny b

This is almost funny.

* Parler: We warned the FBI more than 50 times before the Capitol riot *
https://arstechnica.com/tech-policy...i-more-than-50-times-before-the-capitol-riot/



> Embattled right-wing social media firm Parler infamously promises its users a _laissez-faire_ approach to "free speech" on its service. As the company now tells Congress, however, Parler apparently does warn federal authorities when it discovers certain kinds of violent content on its platform-and users who flock to the site for its anything-goes attitude are mad.
> 
> Parler's attorneys explained in a letter (PDF) to the House Oversight Committee that it apparently does have limits on what it finds acceptable and _did_ take seriously some of the violent content posted to its platform ahead of the January 6 events at the US Capitol.


LOL....when it comes to business models and the ability to remain open, even the fascist rightwingers sell their membership out.

This shouldn't have been a surprise.....DJT does it all the time. Just ask the people he says he doesn't know anymore


----------



## Johnny b

Lawsuits here, lawsuits there....................lawsuits Everywhere ( ... )

https://www.yahoo.com/entertainment/trump-must-face-apprentice-contestants-141617917.html


----------



## Tabvla

Trump won't be the GOP candidate in 2024. It is difficult to run a campaign from San Quentin or Attica or Sing Sing or Rikers Island or Florence.......

T.


----------



## crcook84

Trump is planning on launching his own social media platform:
https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/poli...ocial-media-platform-adviser-says/ar-BB1eOsGY
If this works, all his followers are going to leave Facebook, Twitter, and YouTube (if he makes alternatives for all 3) to join his network and stay connected with him. Now, whether or not you like Trump, if you don't like Big Tech, this is VERY good news. The more people who leave Big Tech, the less power they'll have because they get money from people looking at ads on their platforms.

We already have some alternatives, like:
Brighteon
Gab
lbry.tv
MeWe
Minds
Rumble
However, what we really needed was something that could gain traction.


----------



## Johnny b

crcook84 said:


> .....................
> 
> ...............if you don't like Big Tech, this is VERY good news.
> 
> ......................


Big Tech?
You mean the social platforms like Facebook and Twitter?



> However, what we really needed was something that could gain traction.


Please excuse me for being a noob. I don't do social platforms.
For family and friends I use a telephone, email and even snail mail.
Who is 'We' and what is goal you are looking for?


----------



## flavallee

> I don't do social platforms.
> For family and friends I use a telephone, email and even snail mail.


The same for me. 
No Facebook, Twitter, Instagram, Skype, etc..


----------



## Couriant

crcook84 said:


> Trump is planning on launching his own social media platform:
> https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/poli...ocial-media-platform-adviser-says/ar-BB1eOsGY
> If this works, all his followers are going to leave Facebook, Twitter, and YouTube (if he makes alternatives for all 3) to join his network and stay connected with him. Now, whether or not you like Trump, if you don't like Big Tech, this is VERY good news. The more people who leave Big Tech, the less power they'll have because they get money from people looking at ads on their platforms.
> 
> We already have some alternatives, like:
> Brighteon
> Gab
> lbry.tv
> MeWe
> Minds
> Rumble
> However, what we really needed was something that could gain traction.


Clearly you didn't see just a fraction of his cult followers did when they assembled on January 6th. But then judging from what you wrote, I suppose you are also a Trumper.

This is putting all explosives in one barrel... not a good thing and who's to say they will report any threats of murder/kidnapping? Parler 'supposed to have' but I don't believe that for one minute.


----------



## plankton23

Setting aside any political affiliation and my disdain for social media in general......I'm onboard with any attempt at wiping that smug look off of Zuckerberg's face and hitting him where it counts.....his finances. That piece of turd lied through his teeth at both hearings he attended...subpoenaed. 

If true.....heck yah......build it, launch it and take down FB. Along with any other biased media outlet.


----------



## Johnny b

As far as my thoughts go.....I would think all the damage done to members of those platforms...... data farming, hacking etc of their data bases and the foreign enemy propaganda .....would dissuade intelligent people from joining.
But it doesn't seem to have any great impact.


I would think anything Trump is promoting would be 10+ times worse.

Of course, it would make the perfect unintentional honey trap for traitors and seditionists.


----------



## MisterEd51

Couriant said:


> Clearly you didn't see just a fraction of his cult followers did when they assembled on January 6th. But then judging from what you wrote, I suppose you are also a Trumper.
> 
> This is putting all explosives in one barrel... not a good thing and who's to say they will report any threats of murder/kidnapping? Parler 'supposed to have' but I don't believe that for one minute.


I am not a Trumper or or a cult follower of anything. These are just derogatory terms made up by the far left to disparage people that voted for Trump. Please refrain from such derogatory language on this forum. I thought people were more civilized than that.

I just noticed that you a Moderator. I thought Moderators are supposed to set the standard for civil discourse.


----------



## Johnny b

MisterEd51 said:


> I am not a Trumper or or a cult follower of anything. These are just derogatory terms made up by the far left to disparage people that voted for Trump. Please refrain from such derogatory language on this forum. I thought people were more civilized than that.
> 
> I just noticed that you a Moderator. I thought Moderators are supposed to set the standard for civil discourse.


Your own bias is rather obvious.

It assumes anyone that voted against Trump is a leftist.

Trump may own the GOP, but if you look closer, he's merely a malevolent opportunist of a populist nature that wants to be an authoritarian ruler for life. 
And his 'populism' appeals to many. ( ironic, eh )

This thread is about his attempt to still get his 'message' across to the public after being
banished from major social media platforms......and it's effect on 'Big Tech'.


----------



## Cookiegal

This thread has been moved to the Controversial Topics forum due to the subject matter of the discussion.


----------



## MisterEd51

Cookiegal said:


> This thread has been moved to the Controversial Topics forum due to the subject matter of the discussion.


Thank you.


----------



## Johnny b

You're welcome


----------



## Wino

The gullible will be attracted to Trump net like maggots to dead meat. Probably should be called the Grifters network. If it removes the trash from the other "social" networks, can only be to the good. In any case, doesn't affect me - outside of a few web sites ala TSG - social networking is something I don't participate, don't want and will never miss. Kinda like religion.


----------



## Johnny b

Trump seems to be losing some of his ardent followers over what is felt like donation scamming ......leading up to the election.
I suspect...and hope....members to this new Trump ( whoops....that's 45 ) venture are a lot more cautious about the fine print.

* How Trump Steered Supporters Into Unwitting Donations *
https://www.nytimes.com/2021/04/03/us/politics/trump-donations.html

Shocking, just shocking I tell you! (  )

https://www.theverge.com/2021/4/3/2...upporters-recurring-donation-winred-gary-coby



Wait a minute........that's Donald J Trump. 

* STAYING IN TOUCH Trump launches '45 Office' website that allows fans to message ex-president ahead of possible 2024 run *
https://www.the-sun.com/news/us-news/2607072/trump-launches-45-office-website/
excerpt:


> Speaking at a press conference earlier this month, Trump asking his supporters to donate to his office if they want to "take back the future" of the US.
> 
> Trump is reported to have raised in excess of $250 million since losing the November 2020 election vote.


Take back the future!!!!.....what does that even mean? lol.

And where did all the Mexican money that was supposed to build that wall, go to?


----------



## Wino

Heard over the Easter weekend from a Trumper - Obama is a Kenyan; Michele is a man and they have seen nude pictures of her showing her penis; their daughters were adopted from a confused trans couple; Trump will be returned to office soon. You heard it first here !!  Scary knowing we have people that eat this up like a hog at the slop pit.


----------



## MisterEd51

Johnny b said:


> Your own bias is rather obvious.
> 
> It assumes anyone that voted against Trump is a leftist.
> 
> Trump may own the GOP, but if you look closer, he's merely a malevolent opportunist of a populist nature that wants to be an authoritarian ruler for life.
> And his 'populism' appeals to many. ( ironic, eh )
> 
> This thread is about his attempt to still get his 'message' across to the public after being
> banished from major social media platforms......and it's effect on 'Big Tech'.


What do you call yourself when you vote for a party that is controlled by the far left?

I voted for Trump because I liked what he stood for despite his personal shortcomings.

I think the real reason that people don't like Trump is because he made promises and actually fulfilled many of them. The Democrats only goal is endless rhetoric with no intent on actually accomplishing anything. The new buzz word for that is virtue signaling.

I find it crazy that in the last election the major common reason to vote for Democrats was to vote against Trump. Amazing!!!

Speaking of "authoritarian ruler for life". Right now the goal for the Democrats is to cancel all opposition and rig the elections so that only Democrats will win elections. What a noble goal.

BTW, I was a lifelong Democrat who left the party after the far left took over. Sure the Republicans are not ideal but at least they are still have pro America ideals.

The Democrats are intent on pushing Marxist ideology down our throats. Please don't pretend Democrats are still liberal. That ship sailed a long time ago.


----------



## Johnny b

Wino said:


> The gullible will be attracted to Trump net like maggots to dead meat. .................


IMO, looks like reading comprehension and fine print is stealing their future.

In my younger days, I remember something about conservatism that's been lost over the decades.
Pragmatism. While not part of the GOP platform,it was understood as a trait.
Now 'conservatism' includes wild eyed Qanon cultists, Libertarian anarchists and militant militias. Mixed in with a lot of what I remember as Dixiecrats of the 50's and 60's.
Things change


----------



## Wino

The following should be sung to Roy Obison's "Only the Lonely" !🤪

Only the gullible
Know the way I feel tonight
Only the gullible
Know this feeling ain't right
There goes my Donnie
There goes my heart
They're gone forever
So far apart
But only the gullible
Know why
I cry
Only the gullible
Know the heartaches I've been through
Only the gullible
Know I cry and cry for Donnie
Maybe tomorrow
A new grift
No more borrow
But that's the chance
You gotta take
If your gullible heart breaks
Only the gullible


----------



## Johnny b

MisterEd51 said:


> What do you call yourself when you vote for a party that is controlled by the far left?
> 
> I voted for Trump because I liked what he stood for despite his personal shortcomings.
> 
> I find it crazy that in the last election the major common reason to vote for Democrats was to vote against Trump. Amazing!!!
> 
> Speaking of "authoritarian ruler for life". Right now the goal for the Democrats is to cancel all opposition and rig the elections so that only Democrats will win elections. What a noble goal.
> 
> BTW, I was a lifelong Democrat who left the party after the far left took over. Sure the Republicans are not ideal but at least they are still have pro America ideals.
> 
> The Democrats are intent on pushing Marxist ideology down our throats. Please don't pretend Democrats are still liberal. That ship sailed a long time ago.


Yep, you are a Trumper 
I'll state one of my main reasons for not voting for Trump one more time, just for you. 
Biden wasn't trying to kill me.

Trump is not really a Republican.
He is what ever he thinks he can sell.
From walls to trade wars to tax cuts on the wealthy. And more lol.
His trade policies were anti business, anti consumer, and detrimental to agriculture.
Not Republican.
Running massive debts and bankruptcy have been his tools for empire building, but in reality, you'll find that those concepts are also traits of irresponsible socialists.
Yugoslavia was an obvious victim of that mentality. The USSR was done in, in a similar way.

But his policies on dealing with Covid 19 really defined the man.
A malevolent idiot.
Profits were more important than civilian deaths to the monster.

As much as hard core socialists want authoritarian dictatorships, so do the rightwing fascists of the Trump era.
Just different means of acquiring the power to make it so.

But now the reality.....Trump lost in an election that has been researched and then upheld in the courts.
So now, he's campaigning from his own website.


----------



## Johnny b

MisterEd51 said:


> What do you call yourself when you vote for a party that is controlled by the far left?
> ...............................


What do you call yourself when you vote for a malevolent opportunist that appeals to racists, cultists, militant militias, fascists ( the nationalist movement -->MAGA ) and curries favor with those that tried to overthrow the US Government?


----------



## crcook84

This was intended to be a post about an attempt to topple Big Tech. If it's just going to degenerate into a political fight, feel free to delete the thread.


----------



## Wino

Snowflakes on the left of me; snowflakes on the right of me; and here I am stuck in the middle of cancel culture !!😤


----------



## MisterEd51

Johnny b said:


> IMO, looks like reading comprehension and fine print is stealing their future.
> 
> In my younger days, I remember something about conservatism that's been lost over the decades.
> Pragmatism. While not part of the GOP platform,it was understood as a trait.
> Now 'conservatism' includes wild eyed Qanon cultists, Libertarian anarchists and militant militias. Mixed in with a lot of what I remember as Dixiecrats of the 50's and 60's.
> Things change


I have no idea what you are trying to say. You are throwing around some of the tripe I have heard on MSNBC and CNN. Or worse yet maybe you must be spending too much time on Twitter.

Trump even with all his faults was 10 times a better president than Biden will ever be.

I hope you are real proud of Biden. Even the Washington Post gave him 4 Pinocchios for lying about the Georgia voting law. If he had any honor he would apologize. Don't forget that Biden had to drop out of the 2008 presidential election because of all his plagiarism.

I can see why Biden is being kept from giving press conferences. I tried to listen to his last one. He stumbled around so much and was so incoherent that it gave me a headache trying to understand what points he was trying to make. When he was clear he lied so much it was disgusting.


----------



## Couriant

MisterEd51 said:


> I am not a Trumper or or a cult follower of anything. These are just derogatory terms made up by the far left to disparage people that voted for Trump. Please refrain from such derogatory language on this forum. I thought people were more civilized than that.
> 
> I just noticed that you a Moderator. I thought Moderators are supposed to set the standard for civil discourse.


I did not intend for the categorization of people that blindly following Trump as a derogatory term, it was meant to be a question (i noticed the question mark was not present so it did change the sentence) so I know where the OP falls under. What would be the more appropriate term for the group? MAGA peeps? idiots? I don't put all GOP voters in the same category as these people are truly something else.

I have more choice verbiage for Trump and his followers, but they are certainly not appropriate. Trumper would be a pretty mild comparatively though... anyways since Trumper is shown to be a derogatory term, i look forward to hear some suggestions for some more family friendly terms... Maybe they should be called them Trumpsters/Trumpettes?

" I think the real reason that people don't like Trump is because he made promises and actually fulfilled many of them. " What promises that he fulfilled that benefited the country as a whole and not the 1%ers, and his friends? I am still waiting for the promise of the National Debt that was meant to be gone within 8 years... seemed to be a pretty important one for him at the time... I think the reason people didn't vote for him because of the false promises and his general demeanor, much like a bratty teenager, as well as he demonized a lot of people. He is meant to be a 'leader of the free world' but his actions was the polar opposite. Just look at the debate.


----------



## Couriant

crcook84 said:


> This was intended to be a post about an attempt to topple Big Tech. If it's just going to degenerate into a political fight, feel free to delete the thread.


You should realize for anything about Trump, that's all it will end up as... but let's try to stay back on topic and not focus on the past and focus on what this could potentially be.


----------



## Johnny b

MisterEd51 said:


> I have no idea what you are trying to say. You are throwing around some of the tripe I have heard on MSNBC and CNN. Or worse yet maybe you must be spending too much time on Twitter.
> 
> Trump even with all his faults was 10 times a better president than Biden will ever be.
> 
> I hope you are real proud of Biden. Even the Washington Post gave him 4 Pinocchios for lying about the Georgia voting law. If he had any honor he would apologize. Don't forget that Biden had to drop out of the 2008 presidential election because of all his plagiarism.
> 
> I can see why Biden is being kept from giving press conferences. I tried to listen to his last one. He stumbled around so much and was so incoherent that it gave me a headache trying to understand what points he was trying to make. When he was clear he lied so much it was disgusting.





> I have no idea what you are trying to say.


I believe you.
Actually, I expected no less 



> I hope you are real proud of Biden.


I hope to be.
But like I've posted in the past, Trump left the US in such dire straights, and with Moscow Mitch declaring there would no cooperation from the GOP faction in rebuilding the infrastructure, Biden does have a tough job ahead.
He certainly improved the Covid 19 situation, even though there remains a lot of denial.



> You are throwing around some of the tripe I have heard on MSNBC and CNN. Or worse yet maybe you must be spending too much time on Twitter.



Blame it on the media. Don't you get tired of using that old excuse?
Trump wore it out.



> Trump even with all his faults was 10 times a better president than Biden will ever be.


Geeze, this is like a Ford vs Chevy debate with you. 



> Washington Post gave him 4 Pinocchios......


Let me guess, it was the first time reading the WP and you probably got the Link over at the Fox news site.

Here's the link and the issues. Yeah, Biden got the Hour issue wrong.
However, the GOP is trying to disenfranchise voters in Georgia.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/poli...aims-new-georgia-law-ends-voting-hours-early/

You know....the intentional absence of facts/truths is the same as lying.

Here's what you left out from the article:


> The law has come under fire for restricting the distribution of food and water to people standing in line, making it harder to cast absentee ballots, reducing drop boxes for mail ballots, barring mobile voting places and for making significant procedural changes that potentially give more power to the GOP-controlled legislature in the election process.
> Biden has echoed many of those concerns.


Do you Trumper guys all do the DJT Sieg Heil fist pump reading selected excerpts? (  )



> Don't forget that Biden had to drop out of the 2008 presidential election because of all his plagiarism.


Maybe you were asleep in 2008?
His plagiarism problems were much earlier in his political career.
For 2008, he took second seat to Obama.
BTW, my being a member in good standing with the GOP, I voted for a respected Republican. You know...the one you Trumpers like to hate because Trump 'tells' you to. lol!
John McCain.
2012, I voted for another Republican you Trumpers like to hate, same reason, Trump 'tells' you to. lol again.

Kinda like, Trumpers can't/don't think for themselves 

Anyway, Biden isn't Trump, isn't trying to kill off the general public, doesn't hate minorities and supports the Constitution.
I can live with his minor indiscretion that is ancient history.
He loves and honors his wife....while Trump pays off porn stars and concubines and divorces his way through life.
Gee.....which one is the more conservative? some might ask 

Well, would you really want to take medical advice from an x-president that uses a witch doctor as an authority? Light bulbs in any oriface? Chug a lug Clorox?
That was gross....and stupid, MisterEd.



> I can see why Biden is being kept from giving press conferences. I tried to listen to his last one. He stumbled around so much and was so incoherent that it gave me a headache trying to understand what points he was trying to make. When he was clear he lied so much it was disgusting.


Yes, you are a hard core Trumper


----------



## Johnny b

crcook84 said:


> This was intended to be a post about an attempt to topple Big Tech. If it's just going to degenerate into a political fight, feel free to delete the thread.


IMO, too late now. It's a hot topic with a future. (  )


----------



## MisterEd51

Johnny b said:


> I believe you.
> Actually, I expected no less
> 
> I hope to be.
> But like I've posted in the past, Trump left the US in such dire straights, and with Moscow Mitch declaring there would no cooperation from the GOP faction in rebuilding the infrastructure, Biden does have a tough job ahead.
> He certainly improved the Covid 19 situation, even though there remains a lot of denial.
> 
> 
> Blame it on the media. Don't you get tired of using that old excuse?
> Trump wore it out.
> 
> Geeze, this is like a Ford vs Chevy debate with you.
> 
> Let me guess, it was the first time reading the WP and you probably got the Link over at the Fox news site.
> 
> Here's the link and the issues. Yeah, Biden got the Hour issue wrong.
> However, the GOP is trying to disenfranchise voters in Georgia.
> 
> https://www.washingtonpost.com/poli...aims-new-georgia-law-ends-voting-hours-early/
> 
> You know....the intentional absence of facts/truths is the same as lying.
> 
> Here's what you left out from the article:
> 
> Do you Trumper guys all do the DJT Sieg Heil fist pump reading selected excerpts? (  )
> 
> Maybe you were asleep in 2008?
> His plagiarism problems were much earlier in his political career.
> For 2008, he took second seat to Obama.
> BTW, my being a member in good standing with the GOP, I voted for a respected Republican. You know...the one you Trumpers like to hate because Trump 'tells' you to. lol!
> John McCain.
> 2012, I voted for another Republican you Trumpers like to hate, same reason, Trump 'tells' you to. lol again.
> 
> Kinda like, Trumpers can't/don't think for themselves
> 
> Anyway, Biden isn't Trump, isn't trying to kill off the general public, doesn't hate minorities and supports the Constitution.
> I can live with his minor indiscretion that is ancient history.
> He loves and honors his wife....while Trump pays off porn stars and concubines and divorces his way through life.
> Gee.....which one is the more conservative? some might ask
> 
> Well, would you really want to take medical advice from an x-president that uses a witch doctor as an authority? Light bulbs in any oriface? Chug a lug Clorox?
> That was gross....and stupid, MisterEd.
> 
> Yes, you are a hard core Trumper


This is my last post in this thread because the intelligence here is non existent.

Calling someone a Trumper to anyone is equivalent to a racial slur. I wish people would learn to be more civil. Besides if I wanted to read such tripe I would log onto my Twitter account. 😧


----------



## Chawbacon

Johnny b said:


> Trump lost in an election that has been researched and then upheld in the courts.


I believe that you are incorrect on your analysis of this Johnny. The courts have simply refused to look at the evidence based upon spurious excuses. 


Johnny b said:


> Biden does have a tough job ahead.
> He certainly improved the Covid 19 situation, even though there remains a lot of denial.


What reality are you living in right now? 

Almost everything, everything, and everything else that Biden has done for Covid19 was accomplished by simply following President Trump's programs, or by making slight modifications to those programs implemented by President Trump to address the Covid19 pandemic. The primary difference is the 2 Trillion relief package that was only around 90% pork.


Johnny b said:


> Here's the link and the issues. Yeah, Biden got the Hour issue wrong.
> However, the GOP is trying to disenfranchise voters in Georgia.
> 
> https://www.washingtonpost.com/poli...aims-new-georgia-law-ends-voting-hours-early/


Exactly how is requiring voters (ANY voter) to identify themselves when attempting to vote a disenfranchisement? 

President Biden is also claiming that water cannot be given to people in line, which is also a total lie. Biden has been told this, yet he continues to spout this verifiable nonsense. The only disenfranchisement going on here is the Federal Government deliberately lying to people of the United States.

Now back to the original OP: I don't think that President Trump would break the Internet; however, I do think that an alternate social media platform(s) that does not support the loony liberal wokeatarian craziness, could have a significant impact on the existing Big Tech monopolies.


----------



## Chawbacon

MisterEd51 said:


> Calling someone a Trumper to anyone is equivalent to a racial slur. I wish people would learn to be more civil. Besides if I wanted to read such tripe I would log onto my Twitter account. 😧


Nah... Don't give up! Johnny calls me a Trumper (among numerous other things) all the time, regardless of my actual views. I just consider it a badge of honor that he has to debase himself to childish name calling. 

Try to think of Johnny's politics as the squeaky wheel, that gets the oil; but, continues to squeak and then gets tossed out on the trash heap.


----------



## Chawbacon

Hey Johnny,

Here is some more info on how well Biden has handled the Covid19 pandemic.

Face it, if it was not for the TRUMP VACCINE, Biden would really be in trouble.

After all, using your logic, Biden is responsible for every Covid19 death since he took office, as Trump was responsible for a Pandemic that originated in China (a country that deliberately spread this virus around the world by keeping it's international travel open, while shutting down travel within it's own country).



> BIDEN COVID DEATH TRACKER - Washington Free Beacon
> 
> CNN will likely stop counting, so the _Free Beacon_ is picking up the slack.
> *144,840 *Americans have died from COVID-19 since President Joe Biden took office.
> _Updated April 5, 2021 at 9:00 a.m. _



And a great observation of Uncle Joe's previous statements.


> COVID Death Toll up More Than 25% During Biden's First Month in Office (westernjournal.com)
> 
> As a presidential candidate, Joe Biden took a swaggering tone when asked about COVID-19 and said he would "shut down the virus" if elected.
> 
> However, during his first month in office, almost 100,000 Americans have died, according to new statistics from the Johns Hopkins Coronavirus Resource Center.


----------



## Johnny b

Chawbacon said:


> Nah... Don't give up! Johnny calls me a Trumper (among numerous other things) all the time, regardless of my actual views. I just consider it a badge of honor that he has to debase himself to childish name calling.
> 
> Try to think of Johnny's politics as the squeaky wheel, that gets the oil; but, continues to squeak and then gets tossed out on the trash heap.


Still upset about the government not being over thrown? LOL!

I suggest you donate everything you own and even go into debt, in support of Trump in 2024 

I think MisterEdmight even be a bit more dedicated to Trumpism than you, Jack.
He admitted to being a Democrat turned Trump supporter. That's a pretty strong commitment. 

So, have you signed on at 45 Office dot com?


----------



## Couriant

Keep this on topic please or I will just merge it with The Trump Thread


----------



## Johnny b

Chawbacon said:


> Hey Johnny,
> 
> Here is some more info on how well Biden has handled the Covid19 pandemic.
> .........................


I'd read your links, but you google for headlines and too often they don't stand the test of time 

Your credibility is rather...well....tarnished lol.

Everyone remembers Trumps denials about the coming of the pandemic, his reversal of the denials and then ....more denials and even the false claims of how he was responsible for the Pfizer vaccine.

I think Trump sometimes forgets what he's denied and goes on to contradict himself


----------



## Johnny b

Couriant said:


> Keep this on topic please or I will just merge it with The Trump Thread


That wouldn't be a bad thing, James.
Maybe it should be merged.
There is going to be a lot of crossover since Trump's website will be addressing a lot of material that's already in the Trump thread.


----------



## Johnny b

Chawbacon said:


> I believe that you are incorrect on your analysis of this Johnny. The courts have simply refused to look at the evidence based upon spurious excuses.
> 
> What reality are you living in right now?
> 
> Almost everything, everything, and everything else that Biden has done for Covid19 was accomplished by simply following President Trump's programs, or by making slight modifications to those programs implemented by President Trump to address the Covid19 pandemic. The primary difference is the 2 Trillion relief package that was only around 90% pork.
> 
> Exactly how is requiring voters (ANY voter) to identify themselves when attempting to vote a disenfranchisement?
> 
> President Biden is also claiming that water cannot be given to people in line, which is also a total lie. Biden has been told this, yet he continues to spout this verifiable nonsense. The only disenfranchisement going on here is the Federal Government deliberately lying to people of the United States.
> 
> Now back to the original OP: I don't think that President Trump would break the Internet; however, I do think that an alternate social media platform(s) that does not support the loony liberal wokeatarian craziness, could have a significant impact on the existing Big Tech monopolies.





> I believe that you are incorrect on your analysis of this Johnny. The courts have simply refused to look at the evidence based upon spurious excuses.


The Trump legal entourage was unable to provide the 'claimed' evidence.



> What reality are you living in right now?


Glad you asked.
A safer one than the last months of the Trump Administration.



> Almost everything, everything, and everything else that Biden has done for Covid19 was accomplished by simply following President Trump's programs, or by making slight modifications to those programs implemented by President Trump to address the Covid19 pandemic.


LOL. Good one 
Trump was an impediment.



> Exactly how is requiring voters (ANY voter) to identify themselves when attempting to vote a disenfranchisement?


?
I have no idea what you are responding to.
Do you?



> President Biden is also claiming that water cannot be given to people in line, which is also a total lie.


You have a habit of making thinks up. I see no linkage.
But I did a search to find your claim and wound up at National Review.

https://www.nationalreview.com/2021/03/joe-biden-botches-the-georgia-voting-law/

Read it, Jack.
The means of giving water is controlled and it looks like it's done to intimidate voters.

This is a reality in Georgia that us Ohioans do not experience:

https://www.newsweek.com/voters-wait-10-hours-line-vote-critical-georgia-county-1541132

The GOP is two faced.
At my polling place in Montgomery County, Ohio........Trump supporters set up a stand just outside the building, passing out bottled water along with a scoreboard of Republicans to vote for.
No one complained.
And no, I declined the water 



> I don't think that President Trump would break the Internet


I don't think so either.
Trump will have a large following but I suspect any potential connectivity problems will revolve around Trump's IT commitment.



> I do think that an alternate social media platform(s) that does not support the loony liberal wokeatarian craziness, could have a significant impact on the existing Big Tech monopolies.


They already exist. Trump's will simply be another with a greater potential draw.
The problem Trump will face is constant oversight looking for a repeat of January 6th.
Arguing an election was fraudulent and supporting a violent response will draw attention many members will be paranoid about


----------



## Johnny b

Chawbacon said:


> Hey Johnny,
> 
> Here is some more info on how well Biden has handled the Covid19 pandemic.
> 
> Face it, if it was not for the TRUMP VACCINE, Biden would really be in trouble.
> 
> After all, using your logic, Biden is responsible for every Covid19 death since he took office, as Trump was responsible for a Pandemic that originated in China (a country that deliberately spread this virus around the world by keeping it's international travel open, while shutting down travel within it's own country).
> 
> And a great observation of Uncle Joe's previous statements.


There was no 'Trump Vaccine'.
Modera already had a potential solution and Pfizer took no development money from the Trump Administration.
Scientists developed the vaccine, Trump merely stumbled around taking credit.



> ...... using your logic, Biden is responsible for every Covid19 death since he took office,


You wish. 



> Trump was responsible for a Pandemic that originated in China


No, Trump was responsible for knowing there was a problem and publicly denying it existed. And he inadvertently admitted to that, claiming he didn't want the public to panic. That's been discussed in the past....you and I.

A reminder:
https://nymag.com/intelligencer/202...of-coronavirus-threat-in-november-report.html

https://abcnews.go.com/Politics/int...isis-early-november-sources/story?id=70031273

https://www.washingtonpost.com/poli...21e67e-f2ca-11ea-b796-2dd09962649c_story.html


> Trump's comments came hours after excerpts from the book and audio of some of the 18 separate interviews he conducted with the author were released, fueling a sense of outrage over the president's blunt description of knowing that he was not telling the truth about a virus that has killed nearly 190,000 Americans.( edit: that number grew a lot before Trump left office )


Doing a 'Josh Ellis'?
It gets boring.


----------



## Johnny b

One of the signs that the GOP needs to go back to mainstream values if it wants to remain a political party of influence.
Trumpism appears to be strengthening the Democrat Party.
The mad dogs of Qanon, the Libertarian anarchists and the militant militias that advance Trumpism, were seen for what they were this last January 6th. Insurrectionists.
And Trump treats them as 'friends'. ( https://www.washingtonpost.com/poli...a7e844-8e40-11eb-9423-04079921c915_story.html )

*Gallup poll shows largest increase in Democratic Party affiliation in a decade *
https://www.usatoday.com/story/news...mocratic-party-affiliation-decade/7114860002/


----------



## Johnny b

Breaking news may explain some of Trump's erratic behavior:

https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lanpsy/article/PIIS2215-0366(21)00084-5/fulltext



> Among 236 379 patients diagnosed with COVID-19, the estimated incidence of a neurological or psychiatric diagnosis in the following 6 months was 33·62% (95% CI 33·17-34·07), with 12·84% (12·36-13·33) receiving their first such diagnosis.


Now the task to explain the rest of his life ( LOL! )


----------



## Johnny b

MisterEd51 said:


> This is my last post in this thread because the intelligence here is non existent.
> 
> Calling someone a Trumper to anyone is equivalent to a racial slur. I wish people would learn to be more civil. Besides if I wanted to read such tripe I would log onto my Twitter account. 😧


Darn, I missed your post because Jack stole my attention, we have so much in common. 

Personally, I agree. about the 'intelligence' issue.
Ignoring reality seems illogical and the concept of 'alternate truths' seems a bizarre form of sophistry, but I see it repeated many times in support of Trump and contradictory to reality.



> Calling someone a Trumper to anyone is equivalent to a racial slur.


It must be a tough life for you.....
having been a Democrat and then embracing the concept of Trumpism.
Well, the term 'Trumper' is a descriptor and there is nothing racial or ethnically denoting about it.
Maybe you're just too sensitive?



> Besides if I wanted to read such tripe I would log onto my Twitter account. 😧


Well, perhaps your choice of social media as a news source is why you seem so divorced from the political realities of Trumpism?

Anyway, take care and stay healthy. Covid-19 looks like it's going to be around us for a while.


----------



## Johnny b

The Trumpers aren't going to like this.
Theirs buds in Russia are taking a hit in the latest unclassified NIC document:

PDF here: https://www.dni.gov/files/ODNI/documents/assessments/ICA-declass-16MAR21.pdf

( be sure to read Key Judgement No. 2  )

And Trump's apparent co-conspirator in the insurrection, left a trail of his own involvement mentioned here:

* How a new government report strongly implicates Giuliani in a Russian interference effort *
https://www.washingtonpost.com/poli...licates-giuliani-russian-interference-effort/

( noted, no research was done on Twitter or Facebook to come up with those interesting facts ------>  )


----------



## Johnny b

Let the whining begin.


----------



## Wino

The mental midgets will be along shortly to dispute.🤪


----------



## Johnny b

How about some humor to soften the above blow? 
How about some more of Rudy?

*Rudy Giuliani Tried to Get Sacha Baron Cohen and Crew Arrested for Extortion, Borat 2 Producer Says *
https://www.vulture.com/2021/03/borat-2-producer-alleges-rudy-giuliani-called-cops-on-crew.html

Wow, was that an example of abuse of power, or just plain stupid?


----------



## SeanLaurence

MisterEd51 said:


> What do you call yourself when you vote for a party that is controlled by the far left?
> 
> I voted for Trump because I liked what he stood for despite his personal shortcomings.
> 
> I think the real reason that people don't like Trump is because he made promises and actually fulfilled many of them. The Democrats only goal is endless rhetoric with no intent on actually accomplishing anything. The new buzz word for that is virtue signaling.
> 
> I find it crazy that in the last election the major common reason to vote for Democrats was to vote against Trump. Amazing!!!
> 
> Speaking of "authoritarian ruler for life". Right now the goal for the Democrats is to cancel all opposition and rig the elections so that only Democrats will win elections. What a noble goal.
> 
> BTW, I was a lifelong Democrat who left the party after the far left took over. Sure the Republicans are not ideal but at least they are still have pro America ideals.
> 
> The Democrats are intent on pushing Marxist ideology down our throats. Please don't pretend Democrats are still liberal. That ship sailed a long time ago.


I am extremely suspicious of anyone calling themselves "a lifelong democrat until...."
Of course the democrats want to win the next election, as do Republicans. You probably have not noticed how the US electoral college system has skewed the country so that even though Biden garnered 7 million more votes than Trump, the election ended up being decided by a fairly narrow margin in 3 states.

The whole pandemic was handled poorly by Trump, and the CDC (which was run by Trump appointees), and by most Republican run states. I will allow that Cuomo did a poor job as well. Given that the US rated most prepared country in the world prior to the pandemic, the results were rather dismal.

Given that you have no idea what Marxist ideology is, you should not try to disparage democrats with that assertion.


----------



## Johnny b

Friends of Trump still at it.

* FBI arrests man for plan to kill 70% of Internet in AWS bomb attack *
https://www.bleepingcomputer.com/ne...ll-70-percent-of-internet-in-aws-bomb-attack/



> The FBI arrested a Texas man on Thursday for allegedly planning to "kill of about 70% of the internet" in a bomb attack targeting an Amazon Web Services (AWS) data center on Smith Switch Road in Ashburn, Virginia.
> 
> Seth Aaron Pendley, 28, was charged via criminal complaint on Friday morning for attempting to destroy a building using C-4 plastic explosives he tried to buy from an undercover FBI employee.
> 
> The FBI got wind of the suspect's plans in January when he revealed his plot on the MyMilitia [ edit: run by Josh Ellis https://www.vice.com/en/article/y3g...-find-friendship-and-fantasize-about-violence ] website using a 'Dionysus' handle, a forum used by militia members and supporters to organize and communicate.


A little more info, he seems to have bragged about being at the January attempted insurrection:

* Texas Man Who Boasted About Being at Capitol Riot Plotted to Blow Up Amazon Data Centers: Feds *
https://www.thedailybeast.com/seth-...otted-to-blow-up-amazon-data-centers-feds-say

More:
https://www.justice.gov/usao-ndtx/pr/texas-man-charged-intent-attack-data-centers


----------



## Cookiegal

In case you don't see it, I want to draw your attention to the following sticky post as the top of this forum as it was this thread that triggered the discussion:

https://forums.techguy.org/threads/name-calling-derogatory-terms.1261095/


----------



## Johnny b

I suspect ( heavily ) the trigger was from a single line I posted earlier.
I won't link to it.
And I won't repeat the comment, as true as I believe it to be.


A killing is committed and someone often goes to jail for it.
Kill several hundred thousand+ human beings and it's considered a notation in history.

IMO, something is wrong.


----------



## Johnny b

Supporters of Trump are likely to be upset over possible sanctions on Russia.
Will their sources for misinformation be effectively cut off?

* Months after hack, United States poised to announce sanctions on Russia *
https://www.usatoday.com/story/news...nounce-sanctions-hacking-campaign/7232909002/


----------



## Johnny b

There is a ban on certain political descriptors, and I'll adhere to those rules.
However, this is what that particular descriptor referred to....party loyalists in support of Trump's political positions.

* Trump loyalists start 'America First Caucus' to promote U.S. as 'uniquely Anglo-Saxon' *
https://www.washingtonpost.com/poli...first-caucus-promote-us-uniquely-anglo-saxon/

In my opinion, that is a trait of racism.
And that is an element of .........well..... that banned descriptor which can now only be mentioned as "Trump loyalist".

edit:
Interesting pdf

The AFC Policy Platform.
What Trump Loyalists look like.

https://punchbowl.news/wp-content/uploads/America-First-Caucus-Policy-Platform-FINAL-2.pdf


----------



## Johnny b

Those darn Trump Loyalists 

* Least Vaccinated U.S. Counties Have Something in Common: Trump Voters *
https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2021/04/17/us/vaccine-hesitancy-politics.html


----------



## Johnny b

Interesting opinion article at The Hill.
Something many have thought for a long time .........and many have denied with sophistry, misinformation and repeated lies ( we'll call those Trump Loyalists  ).

* There was Trump-Russia collusion - and Trump pardoned the colluder *
https://thehill.com/opinion/white-h...sia-collusion-and-trump-pardoned-the-colluder



> This revelation demolishes, once and for all, Trump's ceaseless claims that he was the victim of the "greatest witch hunt in the history of our country."


It's also rather obvious that things got so bad towards the end of Trump's 4th year in office, the only path for Trump to maintain power was to try to illegally seize it.

edit:
A followup.

* Treasury Department links Paul Manafort to Kilimnik to Russian intelligence *
https://www.usatoday.com/story/news...l-manafort-kilimnik-russian-intel/7267902002/



> A Treasury Department statement Thursday asserted that Konstantin Kilimnik, a Russian and Ukrainian political consultant and associate of former President Donald Trump's campaign chairman, shared sensitive campaign and polling information with Russian intelligence services.


https://home.treasury.gov/news/press-releases/jy0126










I remember that setting, well.


----------



## Johnny b

Another Trump Loyalist.










The 'zany' antics of L. Lin Woods.

* Pro-Trump attorney Lin Wood receives standing ovation after making 'QAnon' gestures to crowd, report says *
https://www.businessinsider.com/lin...non-gestures-receives-standing-ovation-2021-4

Linkage to:
* Lin Wood's QAnon Gesture Sends Audience Wild During Oklahoma Conference *
https://www.newsweek.com./lin-woods...oard&utm_medium=App&utm_campaign=Partnerships

And he's even suggested killing their own when they won't break laws for the Q Loyalists and fellow insurrectionists.

And then there is this quote:


> "It would end permanently until the Bible says it will because every word in the Bible is true," Wood said. "But we're getting ready to go through the second harvest. There's gonna be a revival in America."


Sounds like he's calling for the start of the 'Apocalypse'.

* Pro-Trump lawyer Lin Wood insists he is not insane after tweeting that Mike Pence should face execution by firing squad *
https://www.businessinsider.com/pro-trump-lawyer-l-lin-wood-tweets-that-pence-executed-2021-1
( I seem to remember that was discussed in the forum, earlier. )

I wonder how much DJT fist pumping went on at that Oklahoma rally?


----------



## Johnny b

Trump Loyalists seem to keep wanting to promote the idea Trump had a major part in the creation of the Covid-19 vaccine.

Here is an example of Trump's 'achievements':

* Contractor that ruined 15M doses of J&J vaccine hiked price of another by 800% *
https://arstechnica.com/science/202...-of-jj-vaccine-hiked-price-of-another-by-800/



> FDA releases damning inspection report as lawmakers question ties to Trump admin.
> ................
> 
> Rep. James Clyburn, chairman of the Select Subcommittee on the Coronavirus Crisis, laid out the investigation, writing:
> 
> " Emergent received $628 million in June 2020 to establish the primary US facility for manufacturing vaccines developed by Johnson & Johnson and AstraZeneca. Dr. Robert Kadlec, who served as Assistant Secretary for Preparedness and Response under President Trump and previously worked as a consultant for Emergent, appears to have pushed for this award despite indications that Emergent did not have the ability to reliably fulfill the contract. "


Seems like a conflict of interest with Kadlec having been a consultant for Emergent.

IMO, much of what Trump involved himself in seems poisoned.
False claims and ethical corruption iobviously a part of his legacy. A big part.


----------



## Johnny b

Another sad story about a Trump Loyalist..... that Trump probably no longer remembers knowing.

* Federal investigators search Giuliani's home and office, and experts say it means he's in real trouble *
https://news.yahoo.com/federal-investigators-search-giulianis-home-181800026.html

(alternative title: A view from under the Bus ) 

Apparently Rudy didn't get the out-going Trump Presidential pardon upgrade and his recent past has come back to bite him in the tokus.


----------



## Wino

I imagine black sweat cascading off Rudy's head.

Expect we're about to find out if Orange Ogre issued any secret pardons for family and minions.


----------



## Johnny b

Something to watch of note.

IMO, this looks like a legislative attempt in Florida that would facilitate sedition.

* Ban Trump? Not so fast. Florida is about to pass a law to stop Facebook and Twitter from censoring politicians *
https://www.usatoday.com/story/tech...rida-ban-censor-trump-politicians/4897949001/

I'm not involved with any of the social media sites, but it's easy to see that this proposed legislation would afford some protection to those ( Trump Loyalists, fascists, white supremacists, libertarian anarchists, rogue militias.....and the like ) that openly argue to overthrow an existing legal government.

No doubt, Putin is smiling.


----------



## Tabvla

After the Arizona recount, Donny will return triumphantly to DC....... and the rest of us will ask Elon if he has any seats left on the spacecraft to Mars.

What a strange world we are leaving to those who will come after us.

T.


----------



## Johnny b

Something many suspected about Barr and the Mueller Report.

* Judge Says Barr Misled on How His Justice Dept. Viewed Trump's Actions *
https://www.nytimes.com/2021/05/04/us/politics/barr-trump-obstruction-russia-inquiry.html


> Judge Amy Berman Jackson said in a ruling that the misleading statements were similar to others that William P. Barr, the former attorney general, had made about the Mueller investigation.


*Secret William Barr memo saying not to charge Trump must be released, judge says *
https://www.cnn.com/2021/05/04/politics/william-barr-memo-trump-memo/index.html



> A federal judge this week rejected the Justice Department's attempts to keep secret a departmental opinion to not charge former President Donald Trump with obstruction at the end of the Mueller investigation, calling the administration's lawyers "disingenuous."


----------



## Wino

Getting to any truth regarding the criminality of the Trump administration is like peeling an onion, layer by layer, and just as unpleasant. I hope I live long enough to see him punished for his overt sedition.


----------



## 2twenty2

FBI still after 'worst of the worst' in Capitol riot as new arrests come at steady pace

https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/ju...-worst-capitol-riot-new-arrests-come-n1266580


----------



## Couriant

Judge sentences co-founder of 'Students for Trump' to prison
Let me know if this link doesn't work


----------



## Johnny b

Works, but redirects to:

https://abcnews.go.com/Politics/wireStory/judge-sentences-founder-students-trump-prison-77631664

Interesting article.
Kinda like a 'Trump clone'. A fake.


----------



## Johnny b

It's not 'official', but it is a 'thing' 

The GOP is now the Trumplican Party.

https://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=Trumplican


> A Republican who strays from party values to pander to Trump.


But what are Republican values today?

Is it the party platform, the goals of Trump or the traits of the membership?

I remember when family values and right to life were big draws.
Now less than sound bytes.

I remember when neo-cons were a thing and corporate socialism popular in the GOP.
Recently, the GOP was about trade wars and bullying corporations to embrace their new national socialism.

I remember when Presidents gave reverence to a supreme being.
The last GOP President seemed to bask in being worshiped.

IMO, there is no clear cut imagery of Trumplicans.
More like the survivors of a massive LSD party of the late 1960's.
Some maintain an almost normal stance and wear the red hats.

Like K West:









Some seem to be irretrievably damaged:









And then there's those that live next door and pose like human beings.

Trumplicans. Losers that keep on losing....... and calling it victory.


----------



## Tabvla

It is not the power-crazy GOP's in Congress; it is not the biased judges in the Courts; it is not the mentally challenged in certain news media...... no, none of those scare me.....

It is the 73 million of my fellows that voted for Trump for a *second* time.... that really scares me.

History has shown us that it takes only one person to change the world; for good or for bad, for better or for worse; in politics, in science, in human relations. Today in the US (and by default the world) that one person is Trump.

And it is the Constitution and only the Constitution, that stands between the sane citizens of the US and 73 million.

T.


----------



## Wino

I've said before and reiterate - the USA has done much good thru the ages, but of all the sins and transgressions this nation has done within it's borders and around the world, the most vile thing EVER was the election of DJT as president. Democracy, equality, freedom and the Constitution are in the greatest danger of being lost because of this ignorant demigod and his followers. Like Tabvia and other sane individuals, I'm shocked that he has a following at all - doesn't say much for American people that support this lying despicable ogre of a being. The USA AND World will rue the day should he or any of his acolytes ever hold power again. I shed tears and hope this nation survives this era of hate.


----------



## Johnny b

^^^^^ agree.

True, this is an opinion piece, but imo spot on.

* For the GOP, the only acceptable truth is a lie *
https://www.washingtonpost.com/opin...358598-b28c-11eb-ab43-bebddc5a0f65_story.html



> As Liz Cheney's fall from grace among her House Republican colleagues has unfolded these past few months, it has been tempting to compare the drama to the Salem witch trials.
> 
> ..................
> "The Salem witch trials and executions came about as the result of a combination of church politics, family feuds, and hysterical children, all of which unfolded in a vacuum of political authority."
> 
> Well. Substitute Republican politics for "church," intraparty squabbling for "family feuds," and Trumplicans for "hysterical children," and, voilà, you have yourself a GOP conference meeting called to terminate Cheney from her job as House Republican conference chair.
> 
> All of which is unfolding Wednesday in a vacuum of political authority.
> 
> .................
> 
> There are worse things than losing a job in defense of principle. If telling the truth reduces the number of one's friends, it also exposes the depth of the cowards.


Indeed.


----------



## Johnny b

Oh my goodness...........

Apparently Trump didn't please everyone that supported his attempt at an insurrection (  )

*
'You left us': Proud Boys leader Ethan Nordean slams Trump in expletive-laden message
*

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news...er-ethan-nordean-lashes-out-trump/5089270001/


----------



## Tabvla

Don't underestimate Liz Cheney. She is not an adversary that you would want to antagonize. And she is very definitely very annoyed at this time. Ms Cheney has not even got started on Trump as yet, when she does it will not be pretty..... probably very satisfying, but not pretty.

T.


----------



## Johnny b

* Seth Meyers Explains Why It's No Coincidence MAGA-World Is Full Of Criminals *
https://news.yahoo.com/seth-meyers-trump-criminals-063033567.html

Time for some Trumplican humor 

A closer look.


----------



## Johnny b

On a more serious note:

* Why do Trump's foreign golf resorts lose millions of dollars every year? Experts say it could be incompetence, vanity, or something more sinister *

https://news.yahoo.com/why-trumps-foreign-golf-resorts-112746579.html

That's 3 possible reasons.
Be sure to read/check out the last one------> money laundering


----------



## Couriant

Johnny b said:


> On a more serious note:
> 
> * Why do Trump's foreign golf resorts lose millions of dollars every year? Experts say it could be incompetence, vanity, or something more sinister *
> 
> https://news.yahoo.com/why-trumps-foreign-golf-resorts-112746579.html
> 
> That's 3 possible reasons.
> Be sure to read/check out the last one------> *money laundering*


I have no doubt that there is something else going on there. There is no reason that any company can be running a loss like that. Why doesn't the UK/Scotland investigate?


----------



## Johnny b

* New York attorney general 'actively investigating' Trump Organization in a 'criminal capacity' *
https://www.usatoday.com/story/news...ey-general-criminal-investigation/5159082001/



> A New York state investigation looking into whether the Trump Organization illegally inflated the value of its properties is now examining whether any criminal misdeeds occurred.
> .......
> New York Attorney General Letitia James' office has been investigating former President Donald Trump and his company after former Trump attorney Michael Cohen claimed they fraudulently boosted property values to obtain tax breaks and better terms on loans and insurance.
> ...............
> A spokesman for James acknowledged her office is now investigating the Trump Organization for potential criminality, a major shift that could lead to charges if investigators uncover wrongdoing.
> 
> James' office is now working with Manhattan District Attorney Cy Vance, whose office has been conducting a separate criminal probe and is in possession of many Trump-related tax returns.


Irony.....and the criminal proclaimed, stop the steal.


----------



## Bastiat

I suspect one of the charges will be mortgage fraud which is reality easy to prove. Next time you sign a loan application read the fine print above your signature. It gets them every time, a federal felony. I'm betting the US Atty in NY is chomping at the bit to present it in front of a grand jury.


----------



## Johnny b

Hi Bastiat 

Hope all is well in your sphere.


----------



## Bastiat

My sphere is is doing well. On 1/6 I watched the Trump mouth breathers up close and personal. It was something else. I was visiting someone that lives on Capital Hill and we got to watch the morons storming the Capital. It was humorous watching the people who live on Capital Hill standing in their yards flipping the bird to the Dumpy Trumpy marchers as they made their way down the streets.


----------



## Johnny b

Bastiat said:


> My sphere is is doing well. On 1/6 I watched the Trump mouth breathers up close and personal. It was something else. .......................


'Mouth breathers'......lol.
Not allowed to call them 'Trumpers' anymore. Seems to carry derogatory imagery. Like racist ( ? ). Who knew?
Anyway, as correctly fitting/descriptive as it may have seemed, I've substituted it with the term 'Trump Loyalist'.
In that way, be they horned shaman, politician or everyday human that stands with Trump in a quest for insurrection/sedition and the overthrow of the democratic process, they are all inclusive.

That horned shaman's lawyer seems to be using a line of defense that approaches 'mouth breathing'.....inventive.....


----------



## Wino

Re shaman defense has religious overtones - "Forgive them as they knew not what they did - they ride the short bus" ! I'm betting anal rather than mouth breathers.🤬


----------



## Bastiat

Yes Johnny b it could be argued that the Tech Support Guy web site is now "woke".


----------



## Johnny b

Bastiat said:


> Yes Johnny b it could be argued that the Tech Support Guy web site is now "woke".


'Awareness' isn't a 'bad thing', but it's meaning during times of alternate facts and BS Receptivity becomes a wild card.

Words just don't seem to mean the same anymore LOL!

I used the term 'pragmatism' recently in regards to conservative traits of the distant past........to say it was misunderstood is an understatement....... somehow it was seen as being associated with social media sites...... where Trumplican/Trump Loyalists hang out and make bold claims ( which most people see as lies ) but somehow twisted as being liberal hangouts where I embraced disingenuous liberal claims and concepts.....Twitter as I remember....in reality....one of the many social media sites that has Russian/Chinese./N Korean 'actors' pushing Trumplican insanity.
(All that after posting I don't belong to any social media site)

I remember debating you back in the days of GWB.
At least it was debate ( and I mean that in a good way ).

Now days...a lie isn't a lie after it's been repeated a few dozen times.
( wait a minute.......wasn't that the same credo of Stalin and Hitler? )

Stop the Steal.


----------



## Johnny b

Have any of you Trumplicans received a 2021 RNC membership card yet?
I haven't received one for 2021. ......

What year was your fav?
Mine was the gold on black 2017 RNC 'Presidential Advisory Board' card.
It even has the Donald's signature printed on it. Very handsome 

I'll cherish it forever.


----------



## Bastiat

I wonder how many Trump supporters saved their first stimulus check that had Trumps' signature rather then that of the Sec. of Treasury.


----------



## Johnny b

Bastiat said:


> I wonder how many Trump supporters saved their first stimulus check that had Trumps' signature rather then that of the Sec. of Treasury.


Not many LOL.

If I'd gotten one, I probably would have spent it toward a motorcycle.


----------



## Wino

Mine was direct deposit and letter from Trumpy bear congratulating himself was cross shredded without reading. Went into savings account along with those following under our real president, Joe.


----------



## Johnny b

Has Liz Chenny been taught 'a lesson' by the GOP and now back pedals ?
Perhaps her ideology isn't that much different to Trump's.
She was a big supporter of Trumpism at one time.
Maybe she just doesn't like 'The Man'. 

* Cheney dodges on link between Trump election claims and GOP voting laws *
https://thehill.com/homenews/house/...een-trump-election-claims-and-gop-voting-laws



> Rep. Liz Cheney (R-Wyo.) in a new interview responded to questions about the link between former President Trump's claims of voter fraud and her own party's efforts to change state voting laws by saying voters should instead look to the contents of individual bills.


She is after all, her father's daughter and most remember what he was like. LOL!


----------



## Johnny b

I came upon this interesting article this morning.

* Dismissed in 2012, this diagnosis of GOP ills has now become undeniable *https://www.cnn.com/2021/05/23/politics/republicans-extremists-worse-than-2012/index.html

Which discussed this essay in the Washington Post back in 2012:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/opin...-the-problem/2012/04/27/gIQAxCVUlT_story.html

No doubt, the Trumpers/Trump Loyalists will whine and claim exceptions, it is heavily anti GOP (  ).
But this excerpt stood out and is undeniable:



> And Mike Lofgren, a veteran Republican congressional staffer, wrote an anguished diatribe last year about why he was ending his career on the Hill after nearly three decades. "The Republican Party is becoming less and less like a traditional political party in a representative democracy and becoming more like an apocalyptic cult, or one of the intensely ideological authoritarian parties of 20th century Europe,"


Written today, that would be an understated opinion.

Trumpism........a Republican tour of cults from Qanon to the minds that made the world destroyer video with the image of Trump superimposed over Thanos. And all the twisted reality in-between. The more it's violent, the more it's embraced.
And relating sedition and insurrection to tourism doesn't improve the imagery of the GOP one tiny little bit.


----------



## Bastiat

Johnny b said:


> She is after all, her father's daughter and most remember what he was like. LOL!


Liz is a diehard conservative almost a right winger. Her father, on the other hand, is a pragmatic conservative. If he was still active in politics he would not have abided Trump and would have tapped upon his many contacts to oppose Trump. He may still do so now that Trump has attacked his daughter.

There is the Trump party and the Republican party, lets not confuse the two.


----------



## Johnny b

It's a new day.......DJT currently owns the GOP 

And if Dick knows what's good for him, he'll get 'in line' (eventually).
But if I were DJT, I'd be very wary of going quail hunting with Dick 


There is the Trump Party.....and then there's everyone else


----------



## Bastiat

With no twitter and no facebook I suspect Trumps' influence will wane except with those supporters who couldn't read anyway. His core base in other words. Face it you really don't want Dick as your enemy I mean look what he did to his friends.


----------



## Johnny b

Bastiat said:


> With no twitter and no facebook I suspect Trumps' influence will wane except with those supporters who couldn't read anyway. His core base in other words. Face it you really don't want Dick as your enemy I mean look what he did to his friends.


LOL!

I have no idea what the impact will be if Trump continues to be banned.
Perhaps, personally, his power wains....but his entourage continues?
IMO, there's a lot of Trumpies riding the nut-job express looking for a stepping stone upward ....and Trump's demise could present that opportunity.
The squabbling could become interesting.

Crossing either takes it's risks.

Not a fan of Dick ......
But with Dick, I suspect he'd 'beat you' with the Law.
With Trump......he just points a finger and let's the loons do the rest.


----------



## Wino

This is your current republican party - plus the likes of Rand Paul, Greene, Hawley, Johnson, Bundy etal Trump worshipers all.

https://www.thedailybeast.com/the-gop-welcomes-the-mccloskeys-sick-sad-american-dream

There is no longer a GOP other than a small splinter group of semi-sane right wingers with no constituency and not a chance in hell to win anything.


----------



## Bastiat

Wino said:


> There is no longer a GOP other than a small splinter group of semi-sane right wingers with no constituency and not a chance in hell to win anything.


I believe there are more than you think. The problem is many don't have the intestinal fortitude (at least most) to risk alienating Trump and his minions. That may change now that he has lost his twitter and facebook platform to attack those who dare call him on his stupidity.

I not a big fan of Dick either but you have to agree he was and is upfront with his opinions, what he is going to do and his position on any issue. You don't need an interpreter with Dick; he is in your face unlike the mealy mouth won't answer a question Ted Cruzs of the world.

And Wino thank you for giving us Ted "Cancun" Cruz!


----------



## Johnny b

Bastiat said:


> ................. You don't need an interpreter with Dick; he is in your face unlike the mealy mouth won't answer a question Ted Cruzs of the world.
> 
> .......


Indeed.
He's always been open about his positions.
What you see is what you get.
In that vein, rare for a politician.

Lyin' Ted Cruz......now one of Trump's best friends lol.
https://www.businessinsider.com/trump-cruz-feud-history-worst-attacks-2016-9


----------



## Johnny b

Past antics of a 'stable genius'...............the 'gift' that keeps on giving 

* Trump wanted a quick tax break. His appointees are now stuck with big bills. *
https://www.politico.com/news/2021/05/27/trump-payroll-tax-deferral-491017


----------



## Johnny b

This article is a good argument that most of the Republican Party membership now reflects cultism, insurrectionists and ultra-nationalist 'red hatters'. Trumpies.
The GOP needs to be renamed the Trumplican Party.

* Poll: 73% of Republicans blame 'left-wing protesters' for Jan. 6 attack. Just 23% blame Trump. *
https://news.yahoo.com/poll-73-perc...ck-just-23-percent-blame-trump-191520343.html

The Republican Party initially grew around a historical man of greatness that carried the moniker, Honest Abe.
I suspect DJT's moniker in the future will be something so obscene that it can't be posted or repeated at a site like TSG


----------



## Johnny b

So......you're a Trumplican....what is it you want to prove today that you denied in the past?

Interesting article at the Atlantic:

* Trump's Supporters Are Getting the Lab-Leak Story Backwards *
https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/a...s-are-getting-lab-leak-story-backward/619004/

Be sure to check out the past comments of Bannon and Limbaugh 
"Alternate truths" for the simple of mind.

Of note:


> China may have to be harshly pressured into meeting new international obligations. But if the lab-escape hypothesis is true, or even partly true, it serves notice: We are all more connected to one another than we ever imagined, and the truculent nationalism advocated by Trump and his supporters is pointless and self-harming.
> 
> Under its present regime, China and the United States may not be friends. But they are doomed to be partners dealing with a range of risks, from viruses today to climate change tomorrow. Scientific communities will have to share more information, not less. Political leaders will have to find ways to work more closely, not less. We need to get to the truth of the coronavirus. High among those truths: Like it or not, we dwell in one global ecosystem, in which national chauvinism long ago ceased to be an adaptive behavior.


Or we can do this:










and claim it was just a group of peaceful tourists.


----------



## Wino

We've had some real losers and doozies as POTUS, but DJT is the true turd in the punch bowl or swimming pool.


----------



## Johnny b

I came across this interesting request for donations.









Some choice.
Qanon approved, no doubt.


----------



## Johnny b

Great expectations:
* Despite his predictions, Trump won't simply be reinstated as president *
https://news.yahoo.com/despite-his-...ply-be-reinstated-as-president-184136755.html


> Trump has been telling a number of people he's in contact with that he expects he will get reinstated by August
> .....
> Sidney Powell - the lawyer who is the subject of a $1.3 billion defamation lawsuit by voting-machine manufacturer Dominion Voting Systems over her claims that the company helped rig the election against Trump - assured the conference attendees that the U.S. Constitution is no match for their righteous cause.
> ................
> Asked in Dallas why a Myanmar-style coup "can't happen here," Flynn seemed to signal his approval of that idea.
> 
> "No reason. I mean, it should happen here. No reason. That's right," Flynn responded, causing the audience to erupt in more applause.


A Trump Loyalist making interesting press:

* Flynn says he didn't endorse Myanmar-style coup after he appears to back plan in video exchange *
https://www.cnn.com/2021/05/31/politics/michael-flynn-qanon/index.html



> "I want to know why what happened in Minamar (sic)can't happen here?" a member of the audience, who identified himself as a Marine, asked Flynn.
> "No reason, I mean, it should happen here. No reason. That's right," Flynn responded.


And then denies making the statement, at Parler.

Also:
* Michael Flynn suggested at a QAnon-affiliated event that a coup should happen in the U.S. *
https://www.nytimes.com/2021/06/01/us/politics/flynn-coup-gohmert-qanon.html










I remember when DJT suggested the US should try out a 'President for Life'.
https://www.reuters.com/article/us-...ident-extending-tenure-for-life-idUSKCN1GG015

And he was only in the second year of his first and only term.

And now his loyal followers are suggesting a military solution to achieve that end....I'm not surprised.


----------



## Johnny b

lol!

* Trump ends blog after 29 days, infuriated by measly readership *
https://www.washingtonpost.com/technology/2021/06/02/trump-blog-dead/



> *Upset that it was being mocked for low traffic, Trump ordered his team Tuesday to put the blog out of its misery*


----------



## Tabvla

"......_Trump is trying hard to recruit politicians and journalists to back the baseless theory he will be reinstated as president by August 2021_....."

*Extract from The National Review*

"..... _The scale of Trump's delusion is quite startling. This is not merely an eccentric interpretation of the facts or an interesting foible, nor is it an irrelevant example of anguished post-presidency chatter. It is a rejection of reality, a rejection of law, and, ultimately, a rejection of the entire system of American government. There is no Reinstatement Clause within the United States Constitution. Hell, there is nothing even approximating a Reinstatement Clause within the United States Constitution. The election has been certified, Joe Biden is the president, and, until 2024, that is all there is to it. It does not matter what one's view of Trump is. It does not matter whether one voted for or against Trump. It does not matter whether one views Trump's role within the Republican Party favorably or unfavorably. We are talking here about cold, hard, neutral facts that obtain irrespective of one's preferences; it is not too much to ask that the former head of the executive branch should understand them_......"

Are we edging ever-closer to a civil war? I ask the question because 76 million Americans (some of whom must surely be intelligent) voted for the _second time_ for this nutcase. If only 10% of them were of a mind to "take up arms" then we are heading for a civil war.

T.


----------



## Wino

Should he or any of his_ '(p)_sycophants' ever win the White House again, this nation is doomed as a democratic republic. He and they are ALL bat crap crazy, and that's putting it mildly.


----------



## Johnny b

Tabvla said:


> ..................( edited for brevity )
> 
> Are we edging ever-closer to a civil war? I ask the question because 76 million Americans (some of whom must surely be intelligent) voted for the _second time_ for this nutcase. If only 10% of them were of a mind to "take up arms" then we are heading for a civil war.
> 
> T.


It appears so.

There is a large faction in the general public that supports Trump and believes he is 'The President'. And that Biden is a socialist that stole an election. ( He isn't and didn't )
Obviously, it's not a majority. The election proved that, but it is a large segment and it's mood too often approves of violence as a solution.....as shown on January 6th.

This mood wasn't created by Trump, but he was able to focus it to his political advantage where it intensified.

There are basically two radical forces at play. Currently, the Nationalist ( Fascist ) element of the Republican Party ( led by Trump) which has been currently drawing the most attention, and the Far Left (Socialist) of the Democrat Party ( such as Sanders/AOC ).
Each seeks the same goal. Authoritative rule. The means are different, the results similar.
The loss of a democratic society. The loss of freedom and free will. Class warfare. And the economic ruin that eventually goes with it.

The 'great experiment' could easily become a historical tale of a society's destruction by way of dictatorial leadership supported by weak and emotional minds.
It happened in Russia and Germany early in the 20th century. One socialist the other fascist.
A democratic society benefits neither.
Both radical positions seem willing to ruin a good thing to assume absolute power 
Trumplicans seem to think it's their turn.


----------



## Tabvla

When retired army generals such as Michael Flynn start suggesting that the US should perhaps implement a "Myanmar solution" to the current political situation..... that is a time to really start to wonder where this pantomime is taking us.

What initially was a somewhat amusing if rather bizarre sideshow is no longer funny and no longer strange but rather feeling uncomfortably like a 2021 reality version of Tron.

T.


----------



## Johnny b

Tabvla said:


> When retired army generals such as Michael Flynn start suggesting that the US should perhaps implement a "Myanmar solution" to the current political situation..... that is a time to really start to wonder where this pantomime is taking us.
> 
> .........................
> 
> T.


So many signals of intent.
IMO, it's rather obvious their goal is a quest for absolute power.

* Is America heading to a place where it can no longer call itself a democracy?  *
https://www.theguardian.com/us-news...at-republicans-donald-trump-voter-suppression

It's not idle rhetoric.
Our society has experienced and is approaching more tipping points that lead us away from the status of a free and democratic society.
That this is happening is on the onus of the segment of our society that supports this new fascism.

I used the term 'fascism'.
I've noticed in the past, it's often rejected by Trump Loyalists claiming Trump is nothing like Hitler.
Hitler was but one version, one example of fascism.
And he didn't start murdering Jews the day he decided to become a political leader. That came later. After assuming absolute power.

This is 'fascism':
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fascism

This excerpt stands out and seems a trait of the Trumpian philosophy:


> Fascists believe that liberal democracy is obsolete and regard the complete mobilization of society under a totalitarian one-party state as necessary to prepare a nation for armed conflict and to respond effectively to economic difficulties.[9] A fascist state is led by a strong leader such as a dictator and a martial law government composed of the members of the governing fascist party to forge national unity and maintain a stable and orderly society.[9] Fascism rejects assertions that violence is automatically negative in nature and views imperialism, political violence and war as means that can achieve national rejuvenation.[10][11] Fascists advocate a mixed economy, with the principal goal of achieving autarky (national economic self-sufficiency) through protectionist and economic interventionist policies.


IMO, that now seems the GOP party platform.
Now read that Guardian article.

More here:
https://www.britannica.com/topic/fascism

Simple definition here:
https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/fascism


> 1 often capitalized  *: *a political philosophy, movement, or regime (such as that of the Fascisti) that exalts nation and often race above the individual and that stands for a centralized autocratic government headed by a dictatorial leader, severe economic and social regimentation, and forcible suppression of opposition
> 
> 2 *: *a tendency toward or actual exercise of strong autocratic or dictatorial control


*And note, to argue against fascism is not the same as arguing for the support of socialism.*

What you see is what you get:










(edited: removed the word 'is' 
context remained the same )


----------



## Wino

Johnny - could have done without the photo of Jabba.


----------



## Johnny b

Some humor 

Trumplicanism is a mental disorder? 

* 'QAnon Shaman' Jacob Chansley being moved to federal prison for mental evaluation *
https://news.yahoo.com/qanon-shaman-jacob-chansley-being-161231952.html

Like we didn't suspect


----------



## Johnny b

Something to follow:

* Trump Organization could face criminal charges in New York as soon as next week *
https://www.cnn.com/2021/06/25/politics/trump-organization-weisselberg-charges/index.html



> The Manhattan district attorney's office has informed lawyers for the Trump Organization that it could face criminal charges in connection with benefits it has provided to company employees, a Trump attorney confirmed Friday.
> The charges, which could come as soon as next week, would likely involve allegations of a company effort to avoid paying payroll taxes on compensation it provided to employees, including rent-free apartments, cars and other benefits, a person familiar with the matter said.


----------



## ekim68

An opinion piece, but a good read..


America owes thanks to Trump's lawyers - even William Barr


----------



## Wino

ekim68 said:


> An opinion piece, but a good read..
> 
> America owes thanks to Trump's lawyers - even William Barr


Sorry! They get no pass from me. The ONLY reason they did what they did was because DJT was getting his butt kicked in court after court. Only trash lawyers like Rudy, Lin and Sidney would touch this crap. They were all enablers that allowed this to happen under their watch. They all should be disbarred, starting with Barr.


----------



## Johnny b

* Donald Trump praised Adolf Hitler while on 2018 European trip, new book alleges *

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news...r-did-lot-good-things-book-claims/7885580002/



> "Well, Hitler did a lot of good things," Trump allegedly saidduring a 2018 trip to Europe to commemorate the 100th anniversary of the end of World War I, the Wall Street Journal's Michael Bender writes in his book "Frankly, We Did Win This Election" and reported in The Guardian.
> 
> ......
> Trump's comments on Hitler came as Kelly briefed Trump on World War I history and "reminded the president which countries were on which side during the conflict."


----------



## Wino

Trump is the second coming of hitlerism, of that there is no question.


----------



## Johnny b

Same old....same old.
With no chance of winning a bogus lawsuit in court, Trump starts a fundraising effort in support of it.

* Trump sues Twitter and Facebook for banning him, claims "trillions" in damages *
https://arstechnica.com/tech-policy...outube-in-preposterous-bid-for-reinstatement/

* Trump announces lawsuits against Facebook and Twitter, immediately starts fundraising off it *
https://www.businessinsider.com/trump-facebook-twitter-lawsuit-fundraising-immediately-2021-7


> Minutes after Donald Trump announced lawsuits against social media giants, the fundraising started.
> Fundraising email and text blasts went out right after Trump made a speech on the lawsuits.
> "I am SUING Facebook & Twitter for UNCONSTITUTIONAL CENSORSHIP," one of the texts reads.


Old saying, a fool and his money are soon parted........


----------



## Couriant

🙄 once again, media is giving him coverage he desperately wants.


----------



## Johnny b

Couriant said:


> 🙄 once again, media is giving him coverage he desperately wants.


IMO, I think it's important to know what Trump is up to.

His argument essentially is one that a seditionist, insurrectionist or even a domestic terrorist has a constitutional right to publicly call for illegal acts, without intervention.

* Trump is using an unusual legal argument in his suits against Facebook, Twitter, and YouTube *
https://finance.yahoo.com/news/trum...ainst-facebook-twitter-youtube-203405479.html


> In the three suits, which seek class action status, Trump claims members of Congress coerced the social media companies to remove his accounts in the wake of a deadly Jan. 6. attack on the U.S. Capitol that he's accused of inciting. As such, the suits claim, the companies acted as agents of the government and therefore must be bound by free speech rules that govern state actors.


So far, elements of Congress have supported Trump's actions leading up to the attempted overthrow of an election and the seating of himself as 'the man in power'.
Trump has been placed above the law.
Now Trump appears to be claiming that the private sector is an extension of the government, in order to halt the constitutionally legal censure-ship and expulsion from media platforms. 
In doing so, he becomes an advocate for/of domestic terrorism that he has shown favoritism of.

It's another step in destroying a free and democratic society.


----------



## Johnny b

If this guy had become 'President for Life', the potential that these threats might actually have been carried out, are great.

* Trump raged that whoever leaked that he'd hidden in the White House bunker during anti-racism protests should be 'charged with treason' and 'executed,' book says *
https://www.businessinsider.com/trump-white-house-bunker-leaker-treason-executed-book-2021-7

It's a short read, but too much to copy and paste.


----------



## Johnny b

More on the Book by Michael Bender, Wall Street Journal's senior White House correspondent:

* 'Anarchy and chaos': Michael Bender book describes turmoil in Trump White House *
https://www.usatoday.com/story/news...moil-chaos-trump-white-house-book/7948108002/

This stands out in the USAToday article:



> "The country had turned into a tinderbox. And inside the Oval Office was a president who liked playing with matches," Bender wrote, describing aides he spoke with as horrified by the president's behavior.
> 
> *Trump calls for military intervention*
> 
> Multiple times, Trump called for the military to be deployed and to use live ammunition against protesters, aides said.


*"to use live ammunition against protesters"*
74 million voters effectively approved by voting for an unhinged Donald J Trump in the 2020 election.
That's a society in trouble.


----------



## Wino

If this tin pot wannabe dictator ever returns to presidency along with his army of idiots and perverts , this nation is lost to full blown fascism. This nation and the world will rue the day this bag of pus is ever elected to any office of power again.🤬


----------



## Johnny b

Seeing how Trump still has influence in political circles, imo, this is a must read article.

* Joint Chiefs chairman feared potential 'Reichstag moment' aimed at keeping Trump in power *
https://www.washingtonpost.com/poli...26f5fe-e4ec-11eb-a41e-c8442c213fa8_story.html

excerpt:



> As Trump ceaselessly pushed false claims about the 2020 presidential election, Gen. Mark A. Milley, chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, grew more and more nervous, telling aides he feared that the president and his acolytes might attempt to use the military to stay in office, Carol Leonnig and Philip Rucker report in "I Alone Can Fix It: Donald J. Trump's Catastrophic Final Year."
> 
> Milley described "a stomach-churning" feeling as he listened to Trump's untrue complaints of election fraud, drawing a comparison to the 1933 attack on Germany's parliament building that Hitler used as a pretext to establish a Nazi dictatorship.
> 
> "This is a Reichstag moment," Milley told aides, according to the book. "The gospel of the Führer."


----------



## Wino

Orange man says "he's not into coups". I suspect that would only include his unsuccessful attempt Jan. 6, 2021. Each passing day proves this inhuman being is absolutely bonkers.


----------



## Tabvla

Wino said:


> Orange man says "he's not into coups". I suspect that would only include his unsuccessful attempt Jan. 6, 2021. Each passing day proves this inhuman being is absolutely bonkers.


And there are many millions (71% of Republicans) who would vote this deranged individual back into the Oval Office in 2024. Now that is terrifying, not only for the US but for the world.

T


----------



## Johnny b

* Donald Trump was 'almost giddy' watching the Capitol riot on TV, author says *
https://www.businessinsider.com/don...dy-during-the-capitol-riot-author-says-2021-7



> Months after the Capitol insurrection, Trump spoke to Rucker and Leonnig about the rioters. "Personally, what I wanted is what they wanted," Trump told them, according to The Guardian.


Linkage in the above article:

* I Alone Can Fix It review: Donald Trump as wannabe Führer - in another riveting read *
https://www.theguardian.com/books/2...onald-trump-fuhrer-mark-milley-leonnig-rucker



> ......as Trump still refused to concede defeat, Gen Mark Milley, chairman of the joint chiefs of staff, told aides: "This is a Reichstag moment."
> .......
> Trump, Leonnig and Rucker quote a senior official as saying, is a "guy who takes fuel, throws it on the fire, and makes you scared ********"(edited), then says "'I will protect you.'
> 
> "That's what Hitler did to consolidate power in 1933."


And now it's Trumplicans.

A visual theme:
https://www.google.com/search?q=tru...XUB50JHdhUBrIQ_AUoAnoECAEQBA&biw=1216&bih=729


----------



## Johnny b

Trump 'giddy' .....and his followers over emotional?

Funny ( not ha ha, just weird) how they've become seen as the snowflake generation.
While this is an opinion piece, it does make points to consider.

* Have Trump voters come down with a serious case of Snowflake Syndrome? *
https://www.washingtonpost.com/opin...me-down-with-serious-case-snowflake-syndrome/



> On numerous fronts in our politics - from voting rights to covid-19 to the legacy of Jan. 6 - we're being told these voters are afflicted with a deeply fragile belief system that must be carefully ministered to and humored to an extraordinary degree.
> 
> We must pass voting restrictions everywhere to assuage these voters' "belief" that the 2020 election was highly dubious or fraudulent.
> 
> We must not argue too aggressively for coronavirus vaccines, lest they feel shamed and retreat into their anti-vax epistemological shells.
> 
> And we must allow Republicans to appoint some of the most deranged promoters of the stolen election myth to a committee examining the insurrection so they'll feel like its findings are credible.


And of course, examples follow in the article showcasing their deranged mental state.
Trumplicans.....


----------



## Wino

Semi-rhetorical question - Since McCarthy has labeled Cheney and Kinzinger as Pelosi Republicans, does that make them worse than a Trump butt kisser or miles higher on the 0-10 intellect scale where McCarthy and his ilk is 0 and C/K 10's??😤🤪


----------



## Tabvla

A question a little off topic.... (but one that needs to be asked in the context of the deranged who have taken over the GOP).... who will the Democrats put forward for the WH in 2024...?

I ask the question now because I am of the opinion that JB will not be a credible candidate and that KH might not be ready to step up to the top job...... and I am not convinced that a majority of the electorate would support her.

If my opinion is valid then the Dems must be working on a viable option to JB and KH right now because 3 years will be gone before they know it.

And if the GOP continues to be subservient to the deranged then there is a possibility that Orange Man could once again be moving back to Washington. Unbelievable...? Hitler and Mussolini were both unbelievable....... but they both happened.

T


----------



## Johnny b

Tabvla said:


> A question a little off topic.... (but one that needs to be asked in the context of the deranged who have taken over the GOP).... who will the Democrats put forward for the WH in 2024...?
> ...........................
> 
> If my opinion is valid then the Dems must be working on a viable option to JB and KH right now because 3 years will be gone before they know it.
> ..................
> 
> T


I'd be watching to see what the (actual) extremists on the far left are up to.
With the extreme far right having had so much attention because of the violence and imagery of a death cult, the extremists on the far left have had less exposure other than the Trumplican name calling.

Politics seems a game of polarization, not moderation of a society.
These days, emotionalism and propaganda play a big part in both parties.

I suspect few remember.....back in the day of the Soviet Union, Communists claimed they had the perfect democracy. 'Everyone' voted.
Only........ the voter didn't get a choice.

Sophistry:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Democracy_in_Marxism

The other side:
Trumpism....'only I can fix it'

I expect to hear and read a lot of crap like that in the future.
From both the right and left of both parties.


----------



## Wino

Trumpism has taken this nation so far off the rails, I'm not sure what will happen. With new voting laws in critical states, I expect the right could lose by 15 mil and still steal a win. Any elections between now and 2022 will give a good indication whether we are going to return to a democratic republic or an autocratic fascist nation. Should Trump or Trumpism prevail, this nation is lost as we know it. A lot can happen before 2024 and I see no rising star on the left to truly inspire voters. The choice really is between saving from or losing a nation to fascism. That should be the choice for electorate to decide and I seriously doubt they will be able to do so cleanly and clearly since the process has been so degraded by Trumpism lies. I fear the right across the spectrum much more than any radical left as the latter still has democratic ideals IMO.


----------



## Johnny b

Wino said:


> Trumpism has taken this nation so far off the rails, I'm not sure what will happen. ..........................


I'm not sure, either Wayne.

There is a large segment of our society that embraces violence as a solution.
A large part of that obviously influenced by Trump from the early days of his administration.

I've been reading that crime overall has declined a bit, but violence, especially gun violence has escalated.

It's easy to blame Trump. He is after all, leading and promoting destructive acts to be rationalized and carried out.
But there is also the reality that until our society as a whole, embraces civility with support of a civilized society, not much is going to change for the better.
Right wing/Left wing...there will always remain politicians and political figures that will use many of the worst traits of humanity for their own benefit.

Trump is merely very good at it.

We've become a self defeating society in decline.


----------



## Wino

Just finished watching the select committee on 1/6 - gut wrenching - and the main target is the orange pus bag. Waiting now for the right wing nut bags series of lies and false rebuttals.


----------



## Wino

Seems the orange puke's sphincter hold on repubs loosened a bit yesterday - he lost his recommendation in Texas special election and was slaughtered by 1/6 committee testimony. He also, as of now, hasn't commented on either. I also enjoy watching the righties squirm like a can of night crawlers about to become food on a hook. I'm thinkin' they're thinkin' they are riding the wrong horse. Moscow Mitch will be scrambling like a cat on a hot tin roof.


----------



## Johnny b

Wino said:


> Seems the orange puke's sphincter hold on repubs loosened a bit yesterday - he lost his recommendation in Texas special election and was slaughtered by 1/6 committee testimony. ...............................


Seems his sphincter hold is taking on a losing battle in more ways than one lol!

* Justice Department says IRS must give Trump's tax returns to Congress *
https://www.cbsnews.com/news/trump-tax-returns-irs-congress-justice-department/

Now I wonder why that upsets the Donald sooooo much?  ( rhetorical question  )


----------



## Wino

https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2021/07/leave-rest-me/619621/



> Excerpt:
> "Don't expect you to do that, just say that the election was corrupt + leave the rest to me and the R[epublican] Congressmen" is how Donoghue recorded Trump's response in handwritten notes.


Too bad this wasn't known during second impeachment. Maybe he can be impeached a third time to insure he never sees the inside of oval office again except from a federal prison cell. Traitor and seditionist to the core. If this was a lefty, the right would have already extended Saddam's fate to them.

Added: https://www.cnbc.com/2021/07/30/tru...20-election-results-house-committee-says.html


----------



## Wino

https://www.dispatch.com/story/news...-early-turnout-low-election-nears/5375738001/

Ohio is next in special elections. Hope orange mans pick Carey loses.


----------



## Johnny b

Wino said:


> https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2021/07/leave-rest-me/619621/
> 
> Too bad this wasn't known during second impeachment. Maybe he can be impeached a third time to insure he never sees the inside of oval office again except from a federal prison cell. Traitor and seditionist to the core. If this was a lefty, the right would have already extended Saddam's fate to them.
> 
> Added: https://www.cnbc.com/2021/07/30/tru...20-election-results-house-committee-says.html


Everyone involved with Trump in regard to that claim, should be investigated for complicity in Trump's efforts.


----------



## Johnny b

The mentality of Donald J Trump.
From the mouth of a 'stable genius':

https://news.yahoo.com/youre-f-ed-trump-exploded-145506647.html

( I decided not to post the headline, even though it was edited as posted, at Yahoo News. )


----------



## Wino

No question Trump is bat crap crazy !!


----------



## Johnny b

Wino said:


> No question Trump is bat crap crazy !!


If you thought that was crazy ( and it was! ) you just gotta wonder about this.
Is it the typical Donald from 2017, bat crap crazy, or the Covid brain injured dementia of a bat crap crazed 'stable' genius.

A loss is a win in the new Trumptonian sphere of madness.

* Donald Trump's hilarious attempt to suggest he actually won in a special election loss *
https://www.cnn.com/2021/07/29/politics/donald-trump-susan-wright-jake-ellzey/index.html

Briefly, in a special election between two Republicans, the one Trump promoted lost.
A loss is a win. And that's 'genius'. 










And he probably believes it.


----------



## Johnny b

Trumplicans...lol!

Is Rudy Giuliani innocent concerning his episode in the Ukraine, one might ask.
Well, just ask him.

*Rudy Giuliani says 'I committed no crime' while working for Trump *
https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2021/jul/31/rudy-giuliani-donald-trump-attorney

And the reason he's innocent?
because----------> *"You're really stupid"*



> "And if you think I did commit a crime, you're probably really stupid because you don't know who I am."


I wonder if he can repeat that with a straight face in front of a judge lol!

And here he is...exhibiting approved Trumplican fist pumping.










edit: be sure to read the last two paragraphs. caution, a bit vulgar. Shame on you Rudy.


----------



## Johnny b

* 'A one-man scam Pac': Trump's money hustling tricks prompt fresh scrutiny *
https://www.theguardian.com/us-news...g-schemes-campaign-finance-scrutiny-criticism

MAGA.
National Socialism.
And the beat goes on.










I often wonder how many are returning the salute.


----------



## Johnny b

Here's one returning the MAGA salute arguing Trumplican disruption.
( Fox News....of course  )

* Former Trump aide makes case for red counties seeking blue state secession to do so: Mistreated and overtaxed *
https://www.foxnews.com/media/forme...e-secession-to-do-so-mistreated-and-overtaxed

Sooo....here's another Trumplican arguing for further disruption of our society:



> Former Trump national security official Michael Anton made his case for allowing counties in several blue states to essentially secede to form new states or become part of other neighboring ones that better match their socioeconomic values.


In Ohio, we call it gerrymandering. So far it's only done internally, within the state.
( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gerrymandering )

In the 2020 election, 4 electoral votes from Idaho went to Trump.
7 electoral votes from Oregon went to Biden.

Wouldn't it be handy to simply redraw State boundaries and hand off an advantage to the, then current Federal Administration, by increasing the delegates in a favoring State while decreasing them in an opposing state? Of course it would.

BTW, the Trumplican proposing this was Michael Anton, credited for having been a national security official in the Trump administration.
I wonder who's security he was focusing on.....


----------



## Johnny b

This article would have fit as well in the Covid thread, but it's about the scumbag ex-President who's policies and greed initially led to an invasive pandemic in the US with 100's of thousands of unnecessary deaths and likely millions of infections.
Why here?
Because that scumbag is falsely claiming he saved at least 100 million people from certain Covid-19 death.

*US settles with Trump admin whistleblower who exposed botched COVID response *
https://arstechnica.com/tech-policy...tleblower-who-exposed-botched-covid-response/

IMO, 'botched' is an understatement.
'Orchestrated failure' would be more appropriate.



> Bright said he was transferred to the National Institutes of Health (NIH) in a "retaliatory demotion" after he warned about the severity of the pandemic and shortages of medical supplies. Bright also fought the administration's push for hydroxychloroquine, a malaria drug that Trump repeatedly promoted as a coronavirus treatment despite a lack of evidence that it would be effective.


Even before Covid-19:


> Even in the years before the pandemic, according to Bright's complaint, the Trump administration's HHS leadership "pressured Dr. Bright and BARDA to ignore expert recommendations and instead to award lucrative contracts based on political connections and cronyism."


Aside from the bizarre claims by Trump, there was also an issue of his medical advisors.
The voodoo priestess being the most outrageous.






Apparently, it only takes a body count of 4 deaths to describe mass murder.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mass_murder


> The FBI defines mass murder as murdering four or more people during an event with no "cooling-off period" between the murders. A mass murder typically occurs in a single location where one or more people kill several others.


Apparently it doesn't count if the location is a large as a Nation nor the duration an ongoing event. Or that that the body count is 6 figures.
In any other reality, it would look like Trump has been trying to kill us and his supporters want him reinstated.

George Conway at one time accused Trump of 'killing banks' ( bankruptcy issues )
Trump succeeded in doing much more than that.
He became a killer of Civilization.

Here he is as a seditionist with a speech building up to the failed insurrection on Jan 6th

Transcript:
https://www.cnn.com/2021/02/08/politics/trump-january-6-speech-transcript/index.html










And here we are with the same BS kind of lies being spewed today:
* Trump estimates 100 million dead from COVID-19 without his vaccine efforts *
https://www.washingtonexaminer.com/news/trump-100-million-dead-covid-19-vaccine-efforts

Moderna's novel approach started over a decade ago and Pfizer took no development money from the Trump administration.

The real story behind mRNA.
https://www.statnews.com/2020/11/10...leading-technology-in-the-covid-vaccine-race/

Trump lies and his 'army' of Trumplicans drink his koolaid. It's almost funny if it weren't so deadly.


----------



## Johnny b

Who'd ever guess there'd be humor in this thread?

* Trump mocked after sending out another bizarre press release asking 'do you miss me yet?' in all caps *
https://finance.yahoo.com/news/trump-mocked-sending-another-bizarre-142759809.html










The responses were epic.

Such as:


> "600,000 dead Americans could not be reached for comment," wrote one user.
> 
> "Shouldn't you be in jail?" asked another.
> 
> A chorus of tweets saying "no", "nope", and "not even a little bit", were posted in reply to Ms Harrington's tweet.
> 
> Some questioned whether the release of the statement via a surrogate on the platform was a violation of the Twitter ban.
> 
> One user noted: "[The Former Guy] is right where he's most comfortable. After completely failing in office and losing Congress for his party, he gets to play golf, grift, and take potshots at the good man who's actually trying to make America great again."
> 
> "What are your plans for fixing this, (censored)? Naw you'd rather grift, complain and beg for attention," wrote another.
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1426151833882476547 ( :up: )
> 
> (edit: this one is special lol )
> "Lies lies lies. You are not missed," replied one user to the post with a picture of Mr Trump at a rally captioned "If I lose to Joe Biden, you'll never see me again."
> 
> "Shouldn't he be getting ready for his reinstatement?".
> 
> Another posted: "Whatcha wearing for Reinstatement Day? A white robe and hood?"


I guess you can't please everyone, or in this case, perhaps anyone


----------



## Wino

https://abc7chicago.com/capitol-bomb-th ... /10961684/

Developing story, but made me wonder if we aren't headed into an era in USA similar to the actions in No. Ireland and Britain - due to the right wing Trumpistas fighting/bombing for their Führer !! Zeus, how DJT screwed up this world. !!!! Regardless of how this incident turns out.


----------



## Johnny b

* Trump Suggests Osama bin Laden Wasn't a 'Monster': He Only Had 'One Hit' *
https://news.yahoo.com/trump-suggests-osama-bin-laden-215852744.html


----------



## Johnny b

From Trump to Trump wanna-be's

Ron DeSantis...................

* As Florida faces record covid-19 deaths, DeSantis says Biden should follow his lead *
https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/2021/08/26/florida-desantis-covid-deaths-biden/



> Florida Gov. Ron DeSantis (R) said President Biden has failed to "end covid" and should follow his state's lead, even as Florida experiences record-breaking cases, deaths and hospitalizations.


DeSantis' solution seems to be...lets all get infected.
And with the high rate of SARS-CoV-2 mutations, that means a likelihood of repetitive infections.

Like Jennifer Aniston posted about Covid-19: What doesn't kill you mutates, and tries again.


----------



## Wino

Saw a cartoon of a covid cell stating " I can fix stupid!"


----------



## Johnny b

I just know this will only irate MrEd all the more, but I think most that have posted here came to realize Trump had mental issues long ago, before Covid infected his noggin.

* House probe focuses on Trump's mental health and martial law *
https://thehill.com/policy/national...cuses-on-trumps-mental-health-and-martial-law



> The trove of documents requested Wednesday by the House committee investigating the Jan. 6 attack shows an interest in former President Trump's mental health and whether he was considering using the military to remain in power.
> In addition to seeking records on Trump's family members and a long list of former aides, the panel is asking the White House and federal agencies to relay any conversations about removing the former president from office and whether he planned to enact martial law.
> The committee is zeroing in on the period from Election Day to Inauguration Day and wants agencies to turn over "all documents and communications relating to the Twenty-Fifth Amendment to the U.S. Constitution," which allows the vice president and a majority of Cabinet members to remove the president if they believe he is unfit for office.


Well, that's one way to beat the system, claim insanity 

His 2024 spiel could be....'Vote for me, you're as crazy as I am' lol!


----------



## Johnny b

It seems the GOP is sweating over the phone records of those involved in the January 6th acts of sedition and insurrection.
McCarthy is obviously attempting to withhold evidence.

* McCarthy warns companies not to turn over private data of Jan. 6 rioters: GOP majority 'won't forget' *
https://www.foxnews.com/politics/mc...ata-of-jan-6-rioters-gop-majority-wont-forget



> Thompson said last week that the committee would be requesting the records preservation for "several hundred people" as the committee begins its probe into the insurrection, in which hundreds of Trump's supporters seeking to overturn the election stormed the Capitol, brutally beat police, broke through windows and doors and sent lawmakers running for their lives. The letters do not ask the companies to turn over the records, though the committee could do so in the future.


No doubt, the leader of that event, ex-President Donald J Trump is on that list and Trump supporting GOP leaders are in a panic.


----------



## Johnny b

And now it's Marjorie Greene of Qanon fame making threats.
(could it be that she's on that list? lol )

* Marjorie Taylor Greene threatened to 'shut down' telecoms companies if they hand over Republicans' phone records to the January 6 commission *

https://www.businessinsider.com/mar...nies-hand-data-capitol-riot-commission-2021-9



> Rep. Marjorie Taylor Greene claimed on Tuesday that any telecommunications company that complies with a request to hand over Republicans' messages to the January 6 commission would be "shut down."
> ..................
> Though the committee has not named the members of Congress on the list, sources told CNN that several Republicans including Greene were on it.


----------



## Johnny b

Interesting article.
More on the GOP's threats to the business community:

* Republicans try to censor big business, LOL *
https://finance.yahoo.com/news/republicans-try-to-censor-big-business-lol-211011140.html

Essentially, hide all potential evidence of sedition and insurrection in your data bases or we will destroy you.

Kevin McCarthy:


> "If these companies comply with the Democrat [sic] order to turn over private information, they are in violation of federal law and subject to losing their ability to operate in the United States,"




__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1432820807684739073









Looks more like McCarthy is demanding those businesses refuse legal subpoenas, thus breaking the law.
And McCarthy turns out to be a person of interest lol!


----------



## Johnny b

* Mark Milley reportedly took action to ensure a 'rogue' Trump wouldn't launch nuclear weapons after Jan. 6 *
https://news.yahoo.com/mark-milley-reportedly-took-action-164328757.html



> Joint Chiefs Chair Gen. Mark Milley was so convinced that then-President Donald Trump had gone into "serious mental decline" after the Capitol riot that he took steps to limit him from going "rogue" and launching nuclear weapons, a new book by Bob Woodward reportedly reveals.


And some people want him re-elected in the future?


----------



## Johnny b

*Then-CIA director Gina Haspel said the US was 'on the way to a right-wing coup' after Trump lost the election: book *
https://news.yahoo.com/then-cia-director-gina-haspel-192920026.html



> The former CIA director expressed concern that the US was headed toward a right-wing coup after then President Donald Trump lost the 2020 election, according to a new book obtained by The Washington Post.
> 
> The book, "Peril," by The Post's Bob Woodward and Robert Costa, is set to be released next week and documents the chaotic final months of Trump's presidency and the beginning of Joe Biden's term.


Not a shocker.
It does seem shocking that he hasn't been arrested, along with a sizable portion of Congress.


----------



## Johnny b

Time for a little humor......

* Trump reportedly told Pence he wouldn't want to be his friend anymore if he didn't block election certification *
https://news.yahoo.com/trump-reportedly-told-pence-wouldnt-174642147.html



> "You don't understand Mike," he said, according to Woodward and Costa. "You can do this. I don't want to be your friend anymore if you don't do this."


----------



## Johnny b

An opinion piece, but imo spot on.

* Trump is right about Bush *
https://news.yahoo.com/trump-bush-164322731.html

The title doesn't say it all.

But this excerpt does.


> Multiple things can be true at once. Trump was a terrible president. He is also correct that Bush was a terrible president, too.


And the article goes on to explain why Trump was correct.
( Nothing new to many of the older TSG members.... all that was discussed in our own TSG debate forum years ago )


----------



## Johnny b

Oh my goodness lol.
Trump supporting cultists are sometimes just too funny.

* Paranoia drives many Trump supporters to avoid weekend 'Justice for January 6' rally *
https://news.yahoo.com/paranoia-accusations-cloud-efforts-launch-191150555.html

Their logic:


> Those posting on these forums say they largely believe the event to be a setup for a "false flag" event or "honeypot," in which they'll be entrapped and coerced to commit violence by federal agents.





> "Now explain how we're supposed to protest without the FBI busting down your door and you ending up in a DC jail with no court date. I was at the Capitol on J6," one user wrote on TheDonald. "Any protest after J6 is primed to be a false flag. And you can't talk about that 'next level' here either without the feds busting down your door."


( sigh! ) If it was only that easy to stop all the domestic terrorism from the MAGA/Qanon Trump supporting cultists.

I wonder what they've been smoking?


----------



## SeanLaurence

Johnny b said:


> An opinion piece, but imo spot on.
> 
> * Trump is right about Bush *
> https://news.yahoo.com/trump-bush-164322731.html
> 
> The title doesn't say it all.
> 
> But this excerpt does.
> 
> And the article goes on to explain why Trump was correct.
> ( Nothing new to many of the older TSG members.... all that was discussed in our own TSG debate forum years ago )


Saw Bush speaking the other day (9/11 memorial).
I can't believe he is still saying that the Terrorists hate our freedom.

No - they hate their government and wanted the US to start a war.


----------



## Johnny b

An update on old news:

* 'Incredibly dangerous': Trump is trying to get Big Lie promoters chosen to run the 2024 election *
https://www.cnn.com/2021/09/16/politics/trump-secretary-of-state-big-lie/index.html



> Swing state by swing state, former President Donald Trump is trying to get people who tried to overturn the 2020 election chosen to be in charge of the 2024 election.


To argue that supporters of Trump are enemies of the state, seems a given.



> "It is incredibly dangerous to support people for office who do not accept the legitimacy of the 2020 election. It suggests that they might be willing to bend or break the rules when it comes to running elections and counting votes in the future," said Rick Hasen, a professor of law and political science and co-director of the Fair Elections and Free Speech Center at the University of California, Irvine. "Someone who claims falsely that the 2020 election was stolen from Trump lacks credibility and cannot be trusted to run a fair election."


* Mark Finchem, election conspiracy promoter, gets Trump's endorsement for secretary of state *
https://www.azcentral.com/story/new...-arizona-secretary-state-election/8322839002/

Back to the first link:
https://www.cnn.com/2021/09/16/politics/trump-secretary-of-state-big-lie/index.html



> While a secretary's authority varies from state to state, many of them have power over critical elections processes -- from who gets sent an application for a mail-in ballot to whose names are deleted from the registration rolls to how many ballot drop boxes are permitted to which voting technology is used to the certification of the results.
> 
> Griswold said that, if "anti-democracy" candidates are elected, "you could imagine a secretary of state refusing to certify election results," spreading lies to influence the agenda of state legislators, even posing an "insider threat" to election security.


With the current state of mind of National Socialist GOP supporters, that's not really imagination, that's a reality.


----------



## Johnny b

Yes indeedy do....lol

* Right-Wing Conspiracy Rally Collapses Under Weight of Right-Wing Conspiracies *
https://news.yahoo.com/wing-conspiracy-rally-collapses-under-173520497.html

Paranoia saved the day! :up:


----------



## Johnny b

I can post the link, but not the title.
Caution, foul language implied.

https://news.yahoo.com/barr-warned-trump-hed-lose-214800309.html

Excerpt....and I had to edit it!



> Former Attorney General William Barr warned former President Donald Trump he would lose the 2020 election months before the contest because suburban voters viewed him as a "(edited)" a forthcoming book claims.
> 
> Barr told Trump in April 2020 that while his base "cares about seeing [former FBI Director James Comey] and the rest of those guys held accountable," suburban voters "don't care about your (edited) grievances."


Shocking, just shocking I tell you ......(  )


----------



## Johnny b

Update on National Rifle Association's Russian Red Sparrow:

She's gone from being simply a Russian spy to an elected member of the State Duma, the lower house of parliament in Russia.

* Patrick Byrne, the pro-Trump former Overstock CEO admits funneling cash to his ex-lover Maria Butina, the glamorous spy elected to Russia's parliament this week *
https://news.yahoo.com/patrick-byrne-pro-trump-former-163257224.html

There's that darn Trump/Russia connection, again.



> Insider can reveal that Butina has not severed all her connections with the US. She has received large sums of money in the last year from Patrick Byrne, 59, the former CEO of online furniture retailer Overstock.com and Donald Trump supporter and conspiracy theorist.
> 
> ( and this )
> 
> Butina formed a romantic relationship with Paul Erickson, 59, a longtime Republican strategist and guns-rights activist, who she met in Moscow in 2013 and with who she also lived for some time.
> 
> Despite the apparent betrayal, a video made by jailed opposition leader Alexei Navalny's team revealed that Byrne gifted Butina tens of millions of Russian rubles in the last year, according to her asset disclosures. (edit 10m Rubles= ~ $140,000)


Oddly, there is distrust of Butina in Russian political circles. ( lol )

https://meduza.io/en/news/2021/08/1...ria-butina-s-candidacy-due-to-foreign-funding



> However, citing information published by Russia's Central Election Commission (the CEC), the Kirov branch of the KPRF has pointed out that Butina "has foreign bonds and shares in 34 foreign companies, as well as foreign funding" listed among her sources of income.


Looks like Maria invested well. Maybe a little too much for her line of work.

And the NRA?

Well......

* NRA Was 'Foreign Asset' To Russia Ahead of 2016, New Senate Report Reveals *
https://www.npr.org/2019/09/27/7648...ussia-ahead-of-2016-new-senate-report-reveals

Not as noisy as they once were, but the GOP still loves them.
Maybe they have to?


----------



## SeanLaurence

Johnny b said:


> I can post the link, but not the title.
> https://news.yahoo.com/barr-warned-trump-hed-lose-214800309.html


Hilarious how Trump blames James Comey for the Russia investigation, yet, without Comey's inappropriate announcement of an investigation into Hillary's emails, Trump may not have ever won the presidency.
- At least that is the top reason she lost according to Hillary, and I can't say that I disagree.


----------



## Johnny b

Trump certainly likes to push the 'hate button'.
He doesn't seem to take criticism very well. lol!
I read where he now even wants Moscow Mitch out of the Senate .

https://www.wsj.com/articles/trump-...e-mitch-mcconnell-as-split-widens-11632060002


----------



## Wino

Finally, something I can agree with the orange ogre. Moscow Mitch replaced with a Dem or a Donnie hater will do.


----------



## Johnny b

A potential conspiracy theory in the making lol.
But about what, exactly?

Gaetz, Christy, Trump and Sarah Sanders.

* This $100,000 Donation by Matt Gaetz Raises All the Eyebrows *
https://news.yahoo.com/100-000-donation-matt-gaetz-090028392.html


----------



## Johnny b

Sure, this is an opinion piece, but....
it's incredibly damning of Trump and his supporters.....correctly.

* They Were Going to Bulldoze the American Republic for This Guy *
https://news.yahoo.com/were-going-bulldoze-american-republic-165200412.html

Much of it has been posted before, largely as individual actions or events.
Here, the context becomes crystal clear.
And to top it off.....
linkage to the memo John Eastman wrote proclaiming a 'legal' way to overthrow the electoral voting when it goes against the interests of Donal J Trump:

http://cdn.cnn.com/cnn/2021/images/09/20/eastman.memo.pdf

Trump, Eastman et al haven't been arrested for sedition? Amazing!

A little more on Eastman:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_C._Eastman


----------



## Johnny b

I just read his headline and almost fell out of my chair from laughter.

* Donald Trump said that he did 'pretty much the opposite' of what Dr. Fauci advised during the COVID-19 pandemic *
https://news.yahoo.com/donald-trump-said-did-pretty-124347906.html

lol!
I suspected that long ago. 
Even before Trump started using a voodoo priestess as a medical authority.


----------



## Wino

https://news.yahoo.com/neo-nazi-leader-convicted-plot-002121345.html

Loses his right to vote and his guns - another right wing schmuck that won't be able to vote for Trump plus about 5-15 years in prison if held to court possible sentences - so he'll be 30-40 YO when he gets out. I doubt rehabilitated.


----------



## Johnny b

No comment 

* Former White House Spokeswoman Says Trump Once Told Her His Genitals Weren't Strangely Shaped *
https://news.yahoo.com/former-white-house-spokeswoman-says-184543011.html


----------



## Johnny b

* Trump plans to sue to keep White House records on Capitol attack secret *
https://news.yahoo.com/trump-plans-sue-keep-white-060043376.html

What a surprise. 



> The former president also expects top aides - former White House chief of staff Mark Meadows, deputy chief of staff Dan Scavino, strategist Steve Bannon and defense department aide Kash Patel - to defy select committee subpoenas for records and testimony.


Wow, he is worried.


----------



## Johnny b

Now it looks like there's something suspicious about John Durham's investigation.
And it's a bit complicated.

* Trump Server Mystery Produces Fresh Conflict *
https://www.nytimes.com/2021/10/01/us/politics/trump-alfa-bank-indictment.html


----------



## Wino

Durham's investigation is on par with stolen election audits - worthless as teats on a boar hog - only to pacify the orange pustule.


----------



## Johnny b

* Majority of Trump voters believe it's 'time to split the country' in two, new poll finds *
https://www.businessinsider.com/maj...lieve-its-time-to-secede-survey-finds-2021-10



> The results show a country at ideological war with itself: More than half of the surveyed Trump voters - approximately 52% - said the "situation is such that I would favor [Blue/Red] states seceding from the union to form their own separate country." Approximately 41% of Biden-voting respondents answered similarly.


I live in a selfish and gutless society no matter which extreme wins.
From the far left to the far right, the freedom of a society to pursue insanity has become the driving force of a once great nation's own destruction.

Trump is no more a Republican than Bernie Sanders is a Democrat.
Both represent extremes that had little following before embedding themselves into major political parties to seek out support, playing on the emotions of a society that blames their status in life, on anyone but themselves.


----------



## Johnny b

* Biden won't invoke executive privilege on Trump Jan. 6 docs *
https://www.daytondailynews.com/nat...-trump-jan-6-docs/2MR67PWXENFHJN7QUDRXELHS6Y/

:up:


----------



## Wino

Biden admin. should just dump the whole lot of Trump records before lawyers/courts get involved. Rather say, OOPS, sorry, than they never be seen. Everyone knows Trump is guilty, why drag it out. Stop any and all stonewalling.


----------



## Johnny b

> why drag it out.


Elections


----------



## Johnny b

Some interesting background on the bogus 'fake news' commentary seen and heard in support of Donald J Trump.
It's a must read for all those that disbelieved incriminating evidence against Trump.

BS Receptivity at the height of it's acceptance. 
IMO, only emotional fools bought into it and from the looks of it are willing to even die from Covid-19 to prove their allegiance to ignorance.
Unfortunately, that's a large segment of our society.

A very long read:

* "Hacker X"-the American who built a pro-Trump fake news empire-unmasks himself *
https://arstechnica.com/information...a-pro-trump-fake-news-empire-unmasks-himself/


----------



## SeanLaurence

Johnny b said:


> Some interesting background on the bogus 'fake news' commentary seen and heard in support of Donald J Trump.
> It's a must read for all those that disbelieved incriminating evidence against Trump.
> 
> BS Receptivity at the height of it's acceptance.
> IMO, only emotional fools bought into it and from the looks of it are willing to even die from Covid-19 to prove their allegiance to ignorance.
> Unfortunately, that's a large segment of our society.
> 
> A very long read:
> 
> * "Hacker X"-the American who built a pro-Trump fake news empire-unmasks himself *
> https://arstechnica.com/information...a-pro-trump-fake-news-empire-unmasks-himself/


If every unvaccinated person in the US is exposed to covid, only about 1.7% of them will die given the overall mortality rate. The number will be even less when you consider that a higher percentage of the most at risk people have been vaccinated. Delta skews this back of a napkin math.
77% of Americans have been vaccinated, which leaves 23% that probably won't any time soon. Many of those have had covid and consider themselves immune, and to some degree they are correct.

Instinctively, I agree that "only emotional fools bought into it" however, The "pro-Trump" and "Covid is NBD" propaganda campaigns have been so powerful that I find it hard to blame the victims of it.

Excellent article.


----------



## Johnny b

SeanLaurence said:


> If every unvaccinated person in the US is exposed to covid, only about 1.7% of them will die given the overall mortality rate. The number will be even less when you consider that a higher percentage of the most at risk people have been vaccinated. Delta skews this back of a napkin math.
> 77% of Americans have been vaccinated, which leaves 23% that probably won't any time soon. Many of those have had covid and consider themselves immune, and to some degree they are correct.
> 
> Instinctively, I agree that "only emotional fools bought into it" however, The "pro-Trump" and "Covid is NBD" propaganda campaigns have been so powerful that I find it hard to blame the victims of it.
> 
> Excellent article.


Just a comment....there's more to Covid-19 than 'death'.
The 'long hauler' syndrome seems to be affecting a larger segment of the infected than death.
Many will not return to society as capable as before being infected and the youth are likewise affected, leaving those young survivors a lifetime of withdrawl from normal economic and social activity.

I seldom like absolutes.

BS Receptivity appears to be more a mental affliction than an adherence to a political or socioeconomic treatise.

There are those that push the BS for gain, and those that are unable to tell the difference between some lies and reality. The 'best' lies usually start with a little bit of 'truth'. And before long 'alternate truths and facts' are presented as rebuttal to news reports, then tagging reality occurs and presented as 'fake news'.
And I haven't even addressed the cults LOL! 

Natural immunity to Covid-19 also dissipates.
It simply depends upon the nature of the virus, how quickly it mutates and how much each new mutation changes the mechanism of infection.
And of course, the health and strength of the individual's immune system.
I suspect humanity will be needing periodic boosters designed to meet those changes, similar to what we experience with influenza. What the timing will be is dependent upon those above factors.


----------



## SeanLaurence

Johnny b said:


> Just a comment....there's more to Covid-19 than 'death'.
> The 'long hauler' syndrome seems to be affecting a larger segment of the infected than death.
> Many will not return to society as capable as before being infected and the youth are likewise affected, leaving those young survivors a lifetime of withdrawl from normal economic and social activity.
> 
> I seldom like absolutes.
> 
> BS Receptivity appears to be more a mental affliction than an adherence to a political or socioeconomic treatise.
> 
> There are those that push the BS for gain, and those that are unable to tell the difference between some lies and reality. The 'best' lies usually start with a little bit of 'truth'. And before long 'alternate truths and facts' are presented as rebuttal to news reports, then tagging reality occurs and presented as 'fake news'.
> And I haven't even addressed the cults LOL!
> 
> Natural immunity to Covid-19 also dissipates.
> It simply depends upon the nature of the virus, how quickly it mutates and how much each new mutation changes the mechanism of infection.
> And of course, the health and strength of the individual's immune system.
> I suspect humanity will be needing periodic boosters designed to meet those changes, similar to what we experience with influenza. What the timing will be is dependent upon those above factors.


I agree with all that. Stats on 'long hauler' syndrome are hard to come by, so I don't usually bother. 
I wonder how much of the supply chain issues in the headlines are because essential people are no longer in the workforce.


----------



## Johnny b

SeanLaurence said:


> I agree with all that. Stats on 'long hauler' syndrome are hard to come by, so I don't usually bother.
> I wonder how much of the supply chain issues in the headlines are because essential people are no longer in the workforce.


IMO, this is actually a good time to start forward thinking on immigration because of a dwindling work force.


----------



## SeanLaurence

Johnny b said:


> IMO, this is actually a good time to start forward thinking on immigration because of a dwindling work force.


Ah Yes - I call this strategy "Virtual Slavery" - where disenfranchised workers are hired to work crappy jobs in G8 countries that native citizens don't want to do at the wage offered because it is still a better option than what they can get at home.

Why is it that Ag work in the US is preferable to working at home for Mexicans? Are we taking advantage of political instability and high crime rates in Mexico?

Don't get me wrong - these are jobs that with declining birth rates, there are not enough young people to fill these jobs either. We should just treat and pay our immigrant labourers better. 
And no, I don't want to pay more for my lettuce either.


----------



## Johnny b

SeanLaurence said:


> Ah Yes - I call this strategy "Virtual Slavery" - where disenfranchised workers are hired to work crappy jobs in G8 countries that native citizens don't want to do at the wage offered because it is still a better option than what they can get at home.
> 
> Why is it that Ag work in the US is preferable to working at home for Mexicans? Are we taking advantage of political instability and high crime rates in Mexico?
> 
> Don't get me wrong - these are jobs that with declining birth rates, there are not enough young people to fill these jobs either. We should just treat and pay our immigrant labourers better.
> And no, I don't want to pay more for my lettuce either.


LOL!

Tell us what you really think 

Do you think immigrants are only useful for stooped labor as seasonal nomads?
There are jobs of all varieties that are showing signs of labor shortages.
Trucking comes to mind. So does the medical field.
Child care. Restaurants. Hotels.
Some pay better than others, some worse.

But 'virtual slavery'......that's just an emotional argument that diminishes the concept of slavery.

This is an old article, but addresses your fallacious usage:

* What Modern Slavery Is, and Isn't *
https://www.nytimes.com/1997/07/27/weekinreview/what-modern-slavery-is-and-isn-t.html

And a recent article:

* Good News: There's a Labor Shortage. *
https://www.nytimes.com/2021/09/04/opinion/labor-shortage-biden-covid.html

Bringing industrious immigrants into our society as productive citizens is a far cry to rationalizing cheap lettuce harvested by nomadic immigrants that are typically here illegally and abused.
So, you can either entertain a scenario that benefits new arrivals and society, or just blow off some leftist steam


----------



## SeanLaurence

We like to use the term: "Migrant Workers" in these parts.
I think that both our nations take advantage of these people.
I don't use the term "Virtual Slaves" in quite the same way that Giuliani does, and I don't intend to diminish what actual slavery is. 
However.... It does seem apparent that when an employer takes advantage of an undocumented person to under compensate them for their labour under threat of deportation, it does seem to be an apt descriptor for a class of people with few options.

There is a second class of immigrant that we also take advantage of: the highly skilled worker who's presence in their home country will be missed. We allow them to come in because we need their skills. 

A third class of immigrant that we take advantage of is the wealthy that can buy their way in. These people take the wealth that they accumulated in their homeland and invest it in our already prosperous nations, leaving less behind for the people who helped build their wealth to use. 

Given how we benefit from all of these types of immigrants, it is stunning that there is so much opposition to immigration in our lands.


----------



## Johnny b

SeanLaurence said:


> We like to use the term: "Migrant Workers" in these parts.
> I think that both our nations take advantage of these people.
> I don't use the term "Virtual Slaves" in quite the same way that Giuliani does, and I don't intend to diminish what actual slavery is.
> However.... It does seem apparent that when an employer takes advantage of an undocumented person to under compensate them for their labour under threat of deportation, it does seem to be an apt descriptor for a class of people with few options.
> 
> There is a second class of immigrant that we also take advantage of: the highly skilled worker who's presence in their home country will be missed. We allow them to come in because we need their skills.
> 
> A third class of immigrant that we take advantage of is the wealthy that can buy their way in. These people take the wealth that they accumulated in their homeland and invest it in our already prosperous nations, leaving less behind for the people who helped build their wealth to use.
> 
> Given how we benefit from all of these types of immigrants, it is stunning that there is so much opposition to immigration in our lands.


My 'forward thinking' of immigration and today's labor market isn't about locking a class of people into subsistence living.
Immigrants built the US into what it is today and imo, there's no reason to ignore them as
as a resource that benefits both society and their status.
They have shown a willingness to work, shown by taking those low paying jobs.
Things change and the pandemic has caused a lot, with more to come.

Room is currently growing for them in the US in a positive manner that, imo, benefits their roll in becoming a new citizen.



> Given how we benefit from all of these types of immigrants, it is stunning that there is so much opposition to immigration in our lands.


There has always been hatred between ethnic groups, to some degree.
Trump has stereotyped them as an appeal to racists and religious fanatics.
And the focus was on non-white immigrants.
Trump may have been interested in cheap labor for his own ventures, but his xenophobic attitude and policies were obviously in place as a means to gather votes.

Jack had the typical anti immigration spiel. Fear the immigrant.
I looked up some statistics that surprised even me.
Several years ago, there were more felons in Georgia that were legal citizens of Georgia,than there were illegal immigrants committing felonies in all the United States.
Several years ago, over crowding of their prison system was so bad, crimes were being downgraded to misdemeanors in order to improve criminal statistics and free up capacity in their prisons.

There is good and bad in all of humanity.
But I wouldn't want to live in Georgia and it's nothing to do with illegal immigrants.
Even Jack left.



> A third class of immigrant that we take advantage of is the wealthy that can buy their way in. These people take the wealth that they accumulated in their homeland and invest it in our already prosperous nations, leaving less behind for the people who helped build their wealth to use.


Those would be mostly European and Southeast Asian immigrants.
But I do wonder, why is their wealth tied to the nation they resided in?
It is their property and I don't see how the general pop of those nation use it or have any right to use it.


----------



## SeanLaurence

Johnny b said:


> But I do wonder, why is their wealth tied to the nation they resided in?
> It is their property and I don't see how the general pop of those nation use it or have any right to use it.


Wealth is not tied to their home nation per se, but it benefits us and is a detriment to the home nation when it is spent on our shores. One might argue that it all balances out in a global economy, but I believe that the loss of cash circulating in the home economy helps to keep those underdeveloped economies the way they are.


----------



## Johnny b

SeanLaurence said:


> Wealth is not tied to their home nation per se, but it benefits us and is a detriment to the home nation when it is spent on our shores. One might argue that it all balances out in a global economy, but I believe that the loss of cash circulating in the home economy helps to keep those underdeveloped economies the way they are.


Well...that depends on the country and it's politics.
Many African nations are wealthy in resources but dominated by an elite that has no intentions of leaving. 
Same with the middle east. 
Yes, they spend on our shores, but take their 'goodies' home where they tend to rule.

If by underdeveloped you mean the 3rd world, I think corruption and authoritarianism do more to stifle economies than the wealthy leaving and taking their wealth with them.
They tend to be the ruling elite and giving up that kind of power isn't likely.
I suspect very few of wealth in the 3rd world leave their home countries.
Why would they?


----------



## SeanLaurence

Johnny b said:


> Well...that depends on the country and it's politics.
> Many African nations are wealthy in resources but dominated by an elite that has no intentions of leaving.
> Same with the middle east.
> Yes, they spend on our shores, but take their 'goodies' home where they tend to rule.
> 
> If by underdeveloped you mean the 3rd world, I think corruption and authoritarianism do more to stifle economies than the wealthy leaving and taking their wealth with them.
> They tend to be the ruling elite and giving up that kind of power isn't likely.
> I suspect very few of wealth in the 3rd world leave their home countries.
> Why would they?


I agree. 
The example I was thinking about is the Chinese factory owner that comes to BC and buys a 10 million dollar property to live in for half the year. Sure the investment in our economy is welcome, but it leaves thousands of people to drive past the underutilised property to and from work every day.

Or the multitude of investors that purchased million dollar condos and leave them vacant in our downtown which has the effect of raising prices above inflation rates and skewing the neighbourhood dynamic - there are not enough local customers in some of these neighbourhoods to support local businesses because 2/3 of the condos are vacant. (so I heard)


----------



## Johnny b

SeanLaurence said:


> I agree.
> The example I was thinking about is the Chinese factory owner that comes to BC and buys a 10 million dollar property to live in for half the year. Sure the investment in our economy is welcome, but it leaves thousands of people to drive past the underutilised property to and from work every day.
> 
> Or the multitude of investors that purchased million dollar condos and leave them vacant in our downtown which has the effect of raising prices above inflation rates and skewing the neighbourhood dynamic - there are not enough local customers in some of these neighbourhoods to support local businesses because 2/3 of the condos are vacant. (so I heard)





> Sure the investment in our economy is welcome, but it leaves thousands of people to drive past the underutilised property to and from work every day.


If you mean Canadian residents , how is it their business how a privately held piece of property is utilized ( in legal aspects ) ?

If You mean Chinese residents, well....such are the failings of socialism that lets anyone acquire wealth lol!
However, if that wealth is acquired legally under Chinese law, a socialist state, what is your rationale to prevent them from enjoying it in Canada, or the US?
Are you arguing wealth can only be spent in the nation where it originated?

Trump tried a lot of trade sanctions along the same logic. Look at the mess, mistrust and needless friction he generated.
Setting up economic barriers to appease those with wealth envy doesn't sound very productive.



> (so I heard)


Say what? 

I was at an AMA dual sport motorcycle ride in Oregon.
Good people all around from different parts of the US.
Someone started griping about land prices being inflated by wealthy Californians buying up all the choice locations.
This one guy, a regular schmuck like all the rest of us, drove his truck in with California plates.
We all knew by that time where he was from.
One of the locals said, " Bob, you're welcome to ride with us, but afterwords, you have to go back to Cali."
No one took it seriously.
We all laughed.

Kinda like I'm doing now


----------



## SeanLaurence

Johnny b said:


> If you mean Canadian residents , how is it their business how a privately held piece of property is utilized ( in legal aspects ) ?
> If You mean Chinese residents, well....such are the failings of socialism that lets anyone acquire wealth lol!
> However, if that wealth is acquired legally under Chinese law, a socialist state, what is your rationale to prevent them from enjoying it in Canada, or the US?
> Are you arguing wealth can only be spent in the nation where it originated?
> Trump tried a lot of trade sanctions along the same logic. Look at the mess, mistrust and needless friction he generated.


I am suggesting that we should be aware of the effects of our immigration policies both at home and abroad. Maybe we see that allowing third world economies to languish is to our benefit. I would disagree with that premise. 
There has been a "Vacant home tax" instituted here in BC to act as a disincentive for property owners to leave their homes vacant. This is designed with the broad goal of maintaining a livable city. It is not designed to "appease those with wealth envy" - those are your words.


----------



## Johnny b

SeanLaurence said:


> I am suggesting that we should be aware of the effects of our immigration policies both at home and abroad. Maybe we see that allowing third world economies to languish is to our benefit. I would disagree with that premise.
> There has been a "Vacant home tax" instituted here in BC to act as a disincentive for property owners to leave their homes vacant. This is designed with the broad goal of maintaining a livable city. It is not designed to "appease those with wealth envy" - those are your words.





> I am suggesting that we should be aware of the effects of our immigration policies both at home and abroad. Maybe we see that allowing third world economies to languish is to our benefit. I would disagree with that premise.


?
You disagree with something you're suggesting?
What premise do you find agreeable? ( details would be nice )



> There has been a "Vacant home tax" instituted here in BC to act as a disincentive for property owners to leave their homes vacant.


I looked it up.
An annual 1% tax on underused/vacant homes owned by non resident/non citizens.

So....how many homes are affected by this tax?
And with the world stuck in a pandemic, how many of those foreign home owners have been able to enter Canada?


----------



## Johnny b

This is what our society has become from Trump and the cults he emboldened.

Caution, extremely bad language is quoted in the article, but it's necessary to expose, so that these threats are taken seriously.

* Meet the Tomahawk-Toting QAnoner Terrorizing School Boards *
https://news.yahoo.com/meet-tomahawk-toting-qanoner-terrorizing-034320891.html


----------



## SeanLaurence

Johnny b said:


> ?
> You disagree with something you're suggesting?
> What premise do you find agreeable? ( details would be nice )
> 
> I looked it up.
> An annual 1% tax on underused/vacant homes owned by non resident/non citizens.
> 
> So....how many homes are affected by this tax?
> And with the world stuck in a pandemic, how many of those foreign home owners have been able to enter Canada?


https://homefreesociology.com/2021/01/19/two-years-of-bcs-speculation-and-vacancy-tax-data/
The point of the tax is to reduce the number of vacant properties. It also has the effect of making data available to city officials so that they can address the perceived problems and the housing crisis.
I don't have al lot of sympathy to spare for those moving between between countries every 6 months They will survive just fine.


----------



## Johnny b

SeanLaurence said:


> https://homefreesociology.com/2021/01/19/two-years-of-bcs-speculation-and-vacancy-tax-data/
> The point of the tax is to reduce the number of vacant properties. It also has the effect of making data available to city officials so that they can address the perceived problems and the housing crisis.
> I don't have al lot of sympathy to spare for those moving between between countries every 6 months They will survive just fine.


It's your country to do as you like.

Our problem in the States regarding vacant homes is more an issue of poverty driving down property values creating even more social problems.
Taxing them is a non starter. Ones not abandoned would simply become abandoned as conditions worsen and owners relocate.

Where you argue to tax the wealthy, we invite the investment and the reality is, investment comes from those that have, not those that have the least.
A difference in cultures.
One socialist oriented, the other capitalist oriented.


----------



## Johnny b

Mr. Donald 'Fake News' Trump has just set up a new social media platform to spread his lies.
It's been named 'Truth Social'.....how ironic/moronic 
Now everyone can get their TS card punched with one stop shopping for rightwing fake news and alternate truths.

* Donald Trump announces new social media platform, Truth Social, after being banned from major apps *
https://www.usatoday.com/story/news...rm-truth-social-after-twitter-ban/6113559001/

I suspect a lot of dark/perverse humor 



> The platform will be available through an app on the Apple Store as a beta version for trial by "invited guests" in November and the company expects a full rollout in the first quarter of 2022.


No doubt the FBI and Homeland Security will be taking names


----------



## 2twenty2

Trump's Brand New *TRUTH App May Violate Terms Of Open Source Code* It's Built On
https://talkingpointsmemo.com/muckr...iolate-terms-of-open-source-code-its-built-on


----------



## Wino

I expect this will join casinos, wine, steaks, college, nonprofit foundations, presidency failures in the junk heap of trump history. Hope they sue him same as he has sued everyone. I'm amazed he can still find lawyers to represent him considering his past lack of payments.


----------



## Johnny b

Trump's new web site already has a following.

* Hackers broke into Donald Trump's upcoming social-media site, creating fake accounts for Trump and Steve Bannon and posting a photo of a defecating pig *
https://news.yahoo.com/hackers-broke-donald-trumps-upcoming-100039761.html

And then there was this:



> Within hours of the site's announcement, TMTG's app developers banned people from making new accounts and closed the beta site.


----------



## Johnny b

* Trump social network given 30 days to stop breaking software license *
https://news.yahoo.com/trump-social-network-given-30-204900628.html

Trump's fake 'Truth' 

https://www.theverge.com/2021/10/22...mastodon-license-software-freedom-conservancy

https://www.rollingstone.com/politics/politics-news/truth-social-trump-software-license-1246641/


----------



## Johnny b

*Rudy Giuliani associate Lev Parnas convicted on all counts for illegal campaign contributions *
https://www.usatoday.com/story/news...rnas-convicted-campaign-donations/6123179001/

Trump-----> Lev who?

lol!



> Lev Parnas, a one-time associate of former New York Mayor Rudy Giuliani, was convicted Friday on charges that he illegally funneled money to U.S. political campaigns in an attempt to win favors and boost a fledgling marijuana business.


----------



## Johnny b

What if Truth Social has more than one purpose, that being the restoration of Trump's wealth.
His fortunes have been taking a beating, even before the Covid-19 pandemic.

An old saying, a fool and his money are soon parted......with Trump and associates on the verge of making billions just to hear him spout off the lies he used to tell on other social media outlets for free.

IMO, it's fair to say.... most of what Trump does is a get rich scam.

* Why Donald Trump's media SPAC could be the ultimate meme stock *
https://fortune.com/2021/10/21/why-...t-goes-live-could-be-the-ultimate-meme-stock/
(too much to copy and paste. It's an interesting read)
...............

* Trump's Tech SPAC Could Make Him Billions With Meme-Stock Frenzy *
https://finance.yahoo.com/news/trump-tech-spac-could-him-121500317.html



> Based on figures from press releases and filings to the Securities and Exchange Commission, it appears Trump will own more than 50% of the combined company. At its current value, that would make him the richest he's ever been, up from his estimated net worth now of $2.5 billion, according to the Bloomberg Billionaires Index.


...........

It is amazing how much his followers value his BS.


----------



## Johnny b

Trump cult logic:

While having called for the invasion of Australia, this rightwing extremist argues Hitler was a nationalist with globalist intentions but that nationalism itself 
is a justifiable quality, in support of Trump politics.
She supports nationalism while arguing for the invasion of one of our allies that has had better success in dealing with Covid-19.
She appears to be a globalist. And a supporter of nationalism.
The very traits she condemned Hitler for.

Fascism is extreme nationalism.
Not patriotism.

An Aussie response to Owens:

https://footyology.com.au/invade-australia-its-been-done-already-candace/



> "Australia currently, make no mistake, is a tyrannical police state. Its citizens are quite literally being imprisoned against their will. So when do we deploy?"
> 
> In case you missed it, that was excitable American right winger Candace Owens last week, calling on the US military to invade Australia and free us from the COVID-19 tyranny of our "totalitarian regime". Owens went on to compare us to Hitler, Stalin and the Taliban, because of course she did.
> ..............
> In calling for the invasion of Australia, Owens seems unaware that, in one sense, it's already happened and that she and fellow right-wing (censored)-stirrers like Alex Jones and Ben Shapiro are a part of it. Their stories resonate with the disaffected, "are captivating, easy to remember and create an outsized footprint online," Yochai Benkler of Harvard University said.


An interesting read.


----------



## Johnny b

( Reuters )
* Analysis-From zero to $12 billion; investors chase Trump stock hype *
https://finance.yahoo.com/news/analysis-zero-12-billion-investors-091542642.html



> Trump Media was worth $8.2 billion based on the closing price of Digital World shares on Friday, while the company that would be created with the merger would have a close to $12 billion valuation.


Apparently attempting to overthrow a legally elected government has financial benefits.


----------



## Johnny b

While this news article probably deserves a thread of it's own, the issue originated with and was obviously led by Trump.
Now elements of Congress are being tied to the support of the insurrection.

* EXCLUSIVE: Jan. 6 Protest Organizers Say They Participated in 'Dozens' of Planning Meetings With Members of Congress and White House Staff *
https://news.yahoo.com/exclusive-jan-6-protest-organizers-003326225.html
(too much to copy and paste)

* Paul Gosar assured Jan. 6 protest organizers they would get a 'blanket pardon' while they were planning rallies: report *
https://news.yahoo.com/paul-gosar-assured-jan-6-033129864.html

Gosar:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paul_Gosar


> A Republican, he was elected in 2010 to represent the neighboring 1st congressional district until redistricting. He is known for his espousal of far-right conspiracy theories[6][7] and ties to white nationalist groups, such as the Groypers ............
> Gosar was one of the 139 representatives who voted to overturn the results of the 2020 U.S. presidential election in Congress on January 7, 2021, the day after the U.S. Capitol was attacked by Trump supporters.[14] Gosar later attended the America First Political Action Conference, a white nationalist conference[15][16] whose organizer, Nick Fuentes, spoke approvingly of the Capitol attack.............


Groypers:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Groypers


> *Groypers*, sometimes called the *Groyper Army*, are a group of white nationalist and far-right activists, provocateurs, and internet trolls who are notable for their attempts to introduce far-right politics into mainstream conservatism in the United States, their participation in the 2021 United States Capitol attack and the protests leading up to that, and their extremist views.


That is the status of the Trump led GOP.
And now Trump is set to become incredibly wealthy from a fan based social media site likely to promote more of the above.


----------



## 2twenty2

Mastodon puts Trump's social network on notice for improperly using its code

https://www.theverge.com/2021/10/29...h-social-network-open-source-gab-legal-notice


----------



## Wino

Comments section of verge pretty much hit nail on head - Trump will NEVER be punished for any of his crimes or misdeeds, whether misusing open source or instigating an insurrection against the USofA and continuing to do so to this very moment.


----------



## 2twenty2

The President's Taxes
Long-Concealed Records Show Trump's Chronic Losses and Years of Tax Avoidance
https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2020/09/27/us/donald-trump-taxes.html

The Money Behind Trump's Money
https://www.nytimes.com/2020/02/04/magazine/deutsche-bank-trump.html

Trump's $300 Million SPAC Deal May Have Skirted Securities Laws
https://www.nytimes.com/2021/10/29/business/trump-spac-digital-world.html


----------



## Johnny b

The legacy of Trump:

* 'Alarming finding': 30 percent of Republicans say violence may be needed to save U.S., poll shows *
https://news.yahoo.com/prri-poll-republicans-violence-040144322.html

Too much to copy and paste, but this stands out:


> Almost one-third of Republicans say they think violence may be necessary to solve the problems facing the United States....
> 
> "nearly a third of the Republicans measured in this poll are getting comfortable with the idea of political violence." And, he said, the much smaller percentages of Democrats and independents who expressed support for this idea are also "enough to be concerning."
> 
> Americans who believe Trump won the 2020 election are roughly four times as likely than those who don't to agree that violence may be necessary "to save our country," by a measure of 39 percent to 10 percent.
> 
> "As we've gotten some distance [from Jan. 6], one might hope cooler heads would prevail, but we really haven't seen that," said Jones. "If anything, it looks like people are doubling down and views are getting kind of locked in."


In a free society, those that claim violence is a solution...are the problem.


----------



## Johnny b

( sigh!)

Trump's pinhead patrol is at it again.

* QAnon supporters gather over theory that JFK Jr. will emerge, announce Trump to be reinstated *
https://news.yahoo.com/qanon-supporters-gather-over-theory-210003092.html

Of course, that has nothing, absolutely nothing, to do with increased drug abuse 
https://drugabusestatistics.org/


----------



## Wino

Johnny, I keep telling you it ain't drugs, it's right wingery !!🤪


----------



## Johnny b

Wino said:


> Johnny, I keep telling you it ain't drugs, it's right wingery !!🤪


Same result


----------



## Wino

Johnny b said:


> Same result


Nope!! Much worse.


----------



## Johnny b

The image I posted speaks for itself 
BTW, weed has gotten so strong that heavy users are experiencing withdrawal symptoms when they try to quit.
And paranoia has been associated with pot for several decades....and Trump followers do seem likely victims from the way they act.

Shocking, just shocking I tell you ( lol! )


----------



## Wino

Johnny b said:


> *The image I posted speaks for itself*
> BTW, weed has gotten so strong that heavy users are experiencing withdrawal symptoms when they try to quit.
> And paranoia has been associated with pot for several decades....and Trump followers do seem likely victims from the way they act.
> 
> Shocking, just shocking I tell you ( lol! )


Yes, indeed - the true evils of Trumpism and Rightwingism !!


----------



## Johnny b

Not a surprise.

* Trump told RNC chair he was leaving GOP to create new party, says new book *
https://abcnews.go.com/US/trump-told-rnc-chair-leaving-gop-create-party/story?id=80979889



> In an angry conversation on his final day as president, Donald Trump told the chairwoman of the Republican National Committee he was leaving the GOP and creating his own political party -- and that he didn't care if the move would destroy the Republican Party, according to a new book by ABC News Chief Washington Correspondent Jonathan Karl.





> "I'm done," Trump told McDaniel. "I'm starting my own party."
> 
> "You cannot do that," McDaniel told Trump. "If you do, we will lose forever."
> 
> "Exactly. You lose forever without me," Trump responded. "I don't care."
> 
> .............
> 
> "This is what Republicans deserve for not sticking up for me," Trump told McDaniel, according to the book.


----------



## Johnny b

After all the whining about voter fraud and a corrupt election process, this doesn't come as a surprise:

* Georgia Grand Jury Looms in Trump Inquiry *
https://www.nytimes.com/2021/11/06/us/politics/trump-election-interference-investigation.html



> An Atlanta D.A. is said to be likely to impanel a special grand jury in her criminal investigation of election interference by the former president and his allies.
> 
> Her inquiry is seen by legal experts as potentially perilous for the former president, given the myriad interactions he and his allies had with Georgia officials, most notably Mr. Trump's January call to Secretary of State Brad Raffensperger, urging him to "find 11,780 votes" - enough to reverse the state's election result.


----------



## Johnny b

From Qanon to Stop the Steal to insurrection and sedition and even the resurrection of John Kenedy jr from the dead, I thought I would have seen all the absurdities of Trump's GOP by now.

Well, now there is a conservative movement to defund PBS because on Sesame Street there is a new muppet that happens to be Asian. Actually a Korean American Muppet from the description in this news article.

*Conservative leader calls for defunding of PBS over 'Sesame Street' intro of Asian American muppet *
https://news.yahoo.com/conservative-leader-calls-defunding-pbs-174228520.html










First it was Cruz and Big Bird, now it's Schlapp and Ji-young, a 7-year-old Korean American Muppet.

From death cults to xenophobia an beyond.......there is something seriously wrong with Trump's political party.


----------



## Wino

The abysmal stupidity of republicans is beyond absolute craziness. DJT has brought out the worst of the citizens. As I've posted before, the single most egregious error made in the entire history of the USA was electing DJT as POTUS. This man represents the scum of the earth along with his followers. Who knew this nation could be so gullible and ignorant to follow this grifter in his attempt to destroy this nation for his own narcissism.


----------



## Johnny b

Wino said:


> ........................... Who knew this nation could be so gullible and ignorant to follow this grifter in his attempt to destroy this nation for his own narcissism.


Indeed.
There have always been individuals out there on the fringe, but never such a mass movement supporting so much destruction.

IMO, it's about the promises made to people that are essentially the losers in life and blame it on others. 
Trump offered up 'solutions'. All one had to do was embrace 'the hate' and vote for him.
Some even worshiped him. 
Now there are many more leaders that are similar, some even crazier.

I don't think this problem is going away.
<depressing>


----------



## Johnny b

Cruz again 

Now he's attacking the Library of Congress.

* Sen. Ted Cruz goes after Library of Congress for dropping term 'illegal alien' *
( repost from NBC News )
https://news.yahoo.com/sen-ted-cruz-goes-library-231413383.html



> After taking on Big Bird over his Covid-19 vaccination, Sen. Ted Cruz, R-Texas, is going after the Library of Congress for abandoning the use of the term "illegal alien" as a subject heading for organizing materials.
> 
> The Library of Congress confirmed Thursday that it will change the subject headings "aliens" to "noncitizens" and "illegal aliens" to "noncitizens" and "illegal immigration."


----------



## Johnny b

This article aptly fits in this thread.
It's not about Trump, it's about the mental status of those that embrace his politics and morality ( as in lack of).
IMO, worth reading the entire article.

* The dumbing-down of America hits a nerve *
https://news.yahoo.com/dumbing-down-america-hits-nerve-110110467.html

Obviously, common sense isn't very common in our society.
BS Receptivity rules.


----------



## Johnny b

General Milley helps avert a war with China, and all he gets are threats. From Trump.

* Trump says top US general should be 'tried for treason' for intervening to prevent a war with China *
https://news.yahoo.com/trump-says-top-us-general-174854483.html



> Former President Donald Trump put out a statement on Friday saying that Gen. Mark Milley, the chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, should be "tried for treason" - a crime punishable by death - for taking steps to prevent a war with China during the Trump presidency.


Note: the time period involves Trump's attempt at sedition and insurrection.


----------



## 2twenty2

Trump's Social Media Site Quietly Admits It's Based on Mastodon
https://www.pcmag.com/news/trumps-social-media-site-quietly-admits-its-based-on-mastodon


----------



## Johnny b

* Joe Biden Has Succinct Retort When Asked If Trump Put Him At Risk For COVID-19 *
https://news.yahoo.com/joe-biden-succinct-retort-asked-205546527.html

There are other articles about this issue, and one troubling thought rises.

Was silence a consideration by Trump in order to eliminate Biden from the election process?
And it should be noted strongly that during the time period in question, 'elimination' by way of Covid-19 included the possibility and probability of death.

Since the policies of Trump have been credited for several hundred thousand unnecessary deaths by SARS-CoV2, what is one more?

Trump calls for insurrection and people die.

It's looking like a theme and it seems popular with his followers.


----------



## Johnny b

A little more on Trump's proposed Media site, but first, the last comment just to get your attention (  )



> Trump fancies himself a business icon, even though his current company is under investigation for fraud. His business history includes 6 bankruptcies and several thousand lawsuits. Trump's real success came as a reality-show entertainer flacking a gilded lifestyle, not as a builder or dealmaker. His latest company may find a way to convert Trump's jocular mendacity into steady profits, but it might also become little more than a Trump fan club that amuses outsiders who occasionally peek inside the fence.


*People are laughing at Trump's new company *
https://finance.yahoo.com/news/people-are-laughing-at-trumps-new-company-214853729.html


----------



## Johnny b

This is nothing to laugh at:

*Matt Gaetz and Steve Bannon said an 'army of patriots' and 'shock troops' should take over the government if Trump runs and wins in 2024 *
https://news.yahoo.com/matt-gaetz-steve-bannon-said-033633318.html



> Rep. Matt Gaetz of Florida and the former White House advisor Steve Bannon floated an idea that an "army of patriots" and "shock troops" should be prepared to take over the government if former President Donald Trump were to run and win in 2024.
> 
> During Thursday's episode of Bannon's "War Room" podcast, he and Gaetz outlined their plan if Trump should win.


Further:



> "It's fresh and it's new. This is *Trumpism* in power. That's when we went to the 4,000 shock troops we have to have that's going to man the government. Get them ready now. Right?" Bannon said. "We're going to hit the beach with the landing teams and the beachhead teams and all that nomenclature they use when President Trump wins in 2024 - or before."
> 
> Bannon went on to suggest that these 4,000 shock troops would then become "political appointees."



Note the bolded term above.
Some people seem to think that isn't about fascism.
It certainly isn't about a free and democratic society.


----------



## Johnny b

* Manhattan prosecutors investigating Trump for fraud are looking into whether he lied to his own accountants, a new report says *
https://www.businessinsider.in/poli...ts-a-new-report-says/articleshow/88289151.cms

* Trump Fraud Inquiry's Focus: Did He Mislead His Own Accountants? *
https://www.nytimes.com/2021/12/14/nyregion/trump-fraud-inquiry.html

Imagine that! LOL!


----------



## Johnny b

* Judge rejects Trump bid to keep tax returns from Congress *
https://www.reuters.com/world/us/judge-rejects-trump-bid-keep-tax-returns-congress-2021-12-14/

 ouch!


----------



## Johnny b

This is novel.
Trump has just instituted a lawsuit against the New York Attorney General in order to stop an investigation into his criminal business practices.

* Trump sues N.Y. Attorney General to block probe of his businesses *
https://www.reuters.com/legal/gover...eneral-block-probe-his-businesses-2021-12-20/

I strongly suspect his associates in crime are taking notes.


----------



## Johnny b

Breaking News.............

Alex throws The Donald under the bus LOL!

* Alex Jones says Trump is either ignorant or 'one of the most evil men who ever lived' in Christmas Day message *
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/...lex-jones-trump-christmas-covid-b1982573.html

^^^^^^the definition of 'ironic'^^^^^^

Guess you can't please everyone, Donald. Especially the crazy ones lol!


----------



## Wino

I read the tone deaf senile orange sphincter has cancelled his "press conference" celebrating his nearly successful coup of Jan 6, 2021. I'm guessing it's due to lack of coverage (attendance) by MSM and not from a new found humanity he discovered in his id.


----------



## Wino

USAG Garland comments today re J6 threw down the gauntlet on scumbag DJT.


----------



## Johnny b

Just an opinion?
Imho, spot on and descriptive of the status under the reign of Trump:

* Opinion: What authoritarianism would look like in America *
https://news.yahoo.com/opinion-authoritarianism-look-america-134451329.html


----------



## Couriant

Not strictly Trump related, but close enough since OAN is one of his favorite 'media'

OAN Panics; DirecTV dropping after contract expires



> One America News is in panic mode after DirecTV decided to drop the right-wing network from its channel lineup.
> 
> OAN host Dan Ball on Monday night urged viewers to dig up "dirt" on AT&T Board Chairman William Kennard, a Democrat who was Federal Communications Commission chairman during the Clinton administration and US Ambassador to the European Union under Obama. (AT&T is DirecTV's majority owner.)
> 
> A Daily Beast article said Ball told viewers that OAN "is now at war with AT&T."


The guy is just as insane as the terrible Ts. (Trump and Tucker)


----------



## Wino

Considering the recent SCOTUS ruling ending constipation of archives material release re 1/6, the orange ogre has remained very quite regarding same. I sometimes wonder if he sweats orange?


----------



## Johnny b

Wino said:


> ...................................I sometimes wonder if he sweats orange?


It's just those Russian golden showers come back to haunt him.


----------



## Johnny b

Not unexpected, but incredibly bold.
Trump appears to be campaigning with the intention of pardoning those that commit sedition and insurrection.

* Trump says he would pardon Jan. 6 rioters if he runs and wins *
https://www.usnews.com/news/top-new...ould-pardon-jan-6-rioters-if-he-runs-and-wins


----------



## Johnny b

And with some nefarious logic, it's not a stretch to consider that the promise of pardons could be an incentive to overthrow a government and install the man who would, then, pardon them.


----------



## Johnny b

Dan Quayle:


> What a waste it is to lose one's _mind_. Or not to have a _mind_ is being very wasteful. How true that is.


Uh huh!

* At his Texas rally, Trump recited the lyrics to a '60s R&B hit to warn against immigration. It was written by a Black civil rights activist who was a member of the communist party. *
https://www.businessinsider.com/tru...n-song-lyrics-warn-against-immigration-2022-1



> "Wait until Republicans find out that he's quoting a former Black nationalist and former communist party member,"


Well....that one's come back to bite him in the rump


----------



## Johnny b

Not surprised:

* Trump White House staffers frequently put important documents into 'burn bags' and sent them to the Pentagon for incineration, report says *
https://news.yahoo.com/trump-white-house-staffers-frequently-112833336.html


----------



## Johnny b

No doubt those burn bags contained a lot of economic data and projections.

* Trump's trade war was a total flop *
https://finance.yahoo.com/news/trumps-trade-war-was-a-total-flop-224150586.html


----------



## Johnny b

And it's time for a little humor 

*Stormy Daniels Tears Into Her Ex-Lawyer Michael Avenatti With A Zinger About Naked Trump *
https://www.huffpost.com/entry/stor...natti-donald-trump_n_6203907ae4b0d4230cc24072



> Daniels tore into Avenatti in an interview Tuesday with NewsNation's Dan Abrams, mocking her former lawyer with a reference to her relationship with Trump.
> "He doesn't scare me. I've seen Donald Trump naked. Nothing Michael Avenatti can say will scare me," Daniels cracked.


lol!


----------



## Wino

Johnny b said:


> No doubt those burn bags contained a lot of economic data and projections.
> 
> * Trump's trade war was a total flop *
> https://finance.yahoo.com/news/trumps-trade-war-was-a-total-flop-224150586.html


Trade War didn't hurt anyone but the poor and middle class America.

As for burn bags - surely there was nothing of intellectual intent lost - criminality, yes. Intellect, no.


----------



## Johnny b

Sad state of affairs with future rising stars in the GOP.
Wow!

* Police records complicate Herschel Walker's recovery story *
https://apnews.com/704738fdbed64383e25e3435684d7341



> He has been championed aggressively by former President Donald Trump, a longtime friend, with other top Republicans eventually joining the fold.
> 
> Senate Minority Leader Mitch McConnell and his No. 2, Sen. John Thune, both endorsed Walker in October after early concerns about his history of domestic violence. Last week, Nikki Haley, the former South Carolina governor who served as U.S. ambassador to the United Nations during the Trump administration, tweeted that Walker would be a champion of conservative values and is "living proof that hard work and determination pay off."


IMO, there are a lot of unstable people in the upper ranks of the GOP.
One at the top was already one too many.


----------



## Johnny b

OK...this was kinda funny 

*Trump denies he flushed records down White House toilet *
https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/do...-flushed-records-white-house-toilet-rcna15693



> Haberman tweeted, "Here's some reporting from the book's later years - White House residence staff periodically found papers had clogged a toilet, leaving staff believing Trump had flushed material he'd ripped into pieces."


Looking into the logic of denial.....if true, Trump was certainly full of something to have stopped up that toilet Ha ha ha ha ha!


----------



## Wino

He has crapped all over the Constitution. It's only fitting he flushed documents to cover his criminality. I suspect WH toilets are as happy to see him gone as I. LOL


----------



## Johnny b

> *Trump reportedly packed White House boxes in secret, took 'top secret' documents to Mar-a-Lago*


https://theweek.com/donald-trump/10...use-boxes-in-secret-took-top-secret-documents


----------



## SeanLaurence

Wino said:


> He has crapped all over the Constitution. It's only fitting he flushed documents to cover his criminality. I suspect WH toilets are as happy to see him gone as I. LOL


One remembers how he endlessly talked about having to flush 15 times with modern toilets at his rallies. Well if you are flushing documents then I can see that now.

I wonder if any of the documents that were pulled out of the clogged toilets were recovered enough to be able to read and submit to the archives.

Problem is he would rip up newspaper articles that he didn't like, as well as whatever else he was destroying. So it is going to be hard for prosecutors to prove intent.


----------



## Johnny b

It doesn't get much funnier ( well, with dark humor that is ) than this:

Imagine a scene where Trump is frustrated clogging toilets with Top Secret documents illegally removed from the White House.....and calling for the death penalty for H Clinton ( treason ) for documenting his own illegal activities.

* Trump claims allegations that Clinton operatives tried to infiltrate Trump Tower, White House servers are crimes that 'would have been punishable by death' *
https://www.businessinsider.com/tru...-infiltration-once-punishable-by-death-2022-2

I suspect the world is laughing at us.
What a buffoon.
And the cult that supports him.


----------



## Johnny b

And now Ohio's Jim Jordan is also calling for executions:

* GOP Rep. Jim Jordan says Trump was 'right on target' when he suggested executing Hillary Clinton aides *
https://www.businessinsider.com/jim...target-suggest-executing-clinton-aides-2022-2

That from a man linked to sedition and the failed Trump insurrection a little more than a year ago.
One has to wonder if that's a rally cry for starting a civil war.
A 'call to arms' to the militant militias or even one of the many 'lone wolves' of the alt-right movement.
The timing with Russian aggression would be, imo, advantageous for such traitorous acts.


----------



## Johnny b

Another 'lol'.

* Trump's longtime accounting firm recants a decade of his financial statements *
https://www.cbsnews.com/news/donald-trump-accounting-firm-mazars-usa-recants-financial-statements/

Essentially, Trump's accounting firm is dropping the Trump account likely because of fraudulent data.
So what is the response from the Trump camp you might ask?



> "This confirmation effectively renders the investigations by the DA and AG moot," the spokesperson said.


Translation: "Because we illegally faked property values, there is nothing to investigate."

Covfefe!!!!!


----------



## sportzriter13

Johnny b said:


> Another 'lol'.
> 
> * Trump's longtime accounting firm recants a decade of his financial statements *
> https://www.cbsnews.com/news/donald-trump-accounting-firm-mazars-usa-recants-financial-statements/
> 
> Essentially, Trump's accounting firm is dropping the Trump account likely because of fraudulent data.
> So what is the response from the Trump camp you might ask?
> 
> Translation: "Because we illegally faked property values, there is nothing to investigate."
> 
> Covfefe!!!!!


Has no one in his camp seen "The Producers"?

When the accountant bails, it means the law isn't far behind. 
Also, they need to look up "fraud". 🤦🏼‍♀️


----------



## Johnny b

Imagine that!
( Hard to make up stuff like this lol )

*Rudy Giuliani Reveals Location Of Secret 'Evidence' Stash And... Um... Wow. *
https://www.huffpost.com/entry/rudy-giuliani-bedroom-evidence_n_620c9e79e4b01251308430bd



> Rudy Giuliani, the former New York mayor and attorney for Donald Trump, declared on Tuesday night that he has a stash of secret evidence against former secretary of state Hillary Clinton.
> And it's in his bedroom.
> ...........
> 
> Given the bedroom claim, however, people began making jokes about an infamous Giuliani moment in another bedroom, when he became an unwitting star in Sacha Baron Cohen's film "Borat 2."


That 'moment'.......
* Rudy Giuliani Caught On Camera Appearing To Touch Genitals During 'Borat' Prank *
https://www.huffpost.com/entry/rudy-giuliani-borat-movie_n_5f906409c5b686eaaa0d6aff


> * Giuliani, 76, was filmed putting his hands in his pants when he thought he was with a female journalist. *
> 
> In Giuliani's estimation at the time, the actor failed to truly prank him.
> "I only later realized it must have been Sacha Baron Cohen," he said. "I thought about all the people he previously fooled and I felt good about myself because he didn't get me."


Trump people lol!


----------



## Wino

No more executive privilege for the dumpster fire Trump per SCOTUS today. In other good news Arbrey killers convicted of hate crimes. In spite of Russia invading Ukraine, this might turn into a red letter day!! LOL


----------



## Johnny b

There is just no getting around it.....Trump admires and supports Putin and his dictatorial authoritarian rule.
Trump does seem to approve of a war in Europe and backs Putin aggression.

* Trump praises Putin's 'genius' incursion into Ukraine *
https://news.yahoo.com/trump-praises-putins-genius-incursion-into-ukraine-234001858.html



> "This is genius," he said of Putin's decision on Monday to officially recognize the breakaway provinces and authorize the use of Russian military personnel to assist them. "So Putin is now saying it's independent - a large section of Ukraine. I said, how smart is that? And he's gonna go in and be a peacekeeper.
> 
> * We could use that on our southern border. *
> 
> That's the strongest peace force I've ever seen. There were more army tanks than I've ever seen. They're gonna keep peace, all right."


[ edit: bolding by me ]

Owens + Trump = wars with Canada and Mexico. That's not peace.


----------



## Johnny b

Nothing surprising.
Trump continues his tirade against our free society, essentially in support of Russian domination.

* Trump calls the US a 'stupid country' and praises Putin as 'smart' in latest Ukraine comments *
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/...trump-putin-cpac-speech-ukraine-b2024210.html

Meanwhile, loyal Trump supporter Greene attends white nationalist conference as a guest speaker:

* Rep. Marjorie Taylor Greene draws criticism for speaking at white nationalist conference *
https://www.usatoday.com/story/news...eaks-white-nationalist-conference/6956765001/


----------



## Wino

These two cover the spectrum from top to bottom the definition of true white trash.


----------



## Johnny b

Nothing surprises me any more .

* Trump, Who Wanted to Withdraw the U.S. from NATO, Now Claims Credit for Its Existence *
https://news.yahoo.com/trump-wanted-withdraw-u-nato-161944527.html

Lies:
( article is over 1 year old )
January 24, 2021
* Trump's false or misleading claims total 30,573 over 4 years *
https://www.washingtonpost.com/poli...isleading-claims-total-30573-over-four-years/

* Veracity of statements by Donald Trump *
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Veracity_of_statements_by_Donald_Trump


> Characterized as the "firehose of falsehood" propaganda technique, commentators and fact-checkers have described it as "unprecedented" in American politics, and the consistency of these falsehoods became a distinctive part of both his business and political identity.


LOL...."firehose of falsehood"
Why stop now!!
Yeah, I think that best describes Putin's Puppet.


----------



## Johnny b

This was expected!

* Scoop: Truth Social verifies white nationalist Nick Fuentes *
https://www.axios.com/truth-social-...ump-0aeddf49-5827-4dec-801e-fca54256e4d7.html



> The Trump-backed network is welcoming a figure barred by mainstream social media and shunned by some other conservative platforms, including Gettr, the app from former Trump aide Jason Miller.
> .....
> *Other conservative personalities, *like former Blaze TV host Jon Miller and "Stop the Steal" organizer Ali Alexander, are also verified on Truth Social, in addition to several Republican members of Congress.
> ......
> Truth Social displays accounts for various brands, including @NFL, @FoxSports, @ESPN and others. Sources confirm that none of those accounts were set up by the entities they claim to represent, although they are set up to look like they are real brand accounts, via links and logos.
> ................
> There are "BOT" labels on those accounts, which may suggest the Truth Social accounts are reposting content those brands have published on other social media sites.


A lot of 'irony' to the naming of Trump's media site, 'Truth Social'.
IMO, it should have been named 'The Liar's Club'


----------



## Johnny b

This thread could now almost be called the :

* 'Trump Supporters for Putin'*

And here's forked tongue, speaking out both sides of his mouth....Tucker Carlson:

* Pentagon says it was 'a fat finger mistake' when Biden's defense secretary retweeted a screenshot from one of Tucker Carlson's pro-Putin monologues *
https://www.businessinsider.com/pen...stin-fat-finger-tucker-carlson-retweet-2022-2

Of course, he denies being pro-Putin now........

Previously:


> "What is this really about?" Carlson said. "Why do I hate Putin so much? Has Putin ever called me a racist?
> 
> "Has he threatened to get me fired for disagreeing with him?" he continued. "Has he shipped every middle-class job in my town to Russia? Did he manufacture a worldwide pandemic that wrecked my business and kept me indoors for two years? Is he teaching my children to embrace racial discrimination? Is he making fentanyl? Is he trying to snuff out Christianity? Does he eat dogs?"


What is it about? Absolute domination. And it's being attempted through violence and death.

In a way, by presenting conflicting statements as a means of conveniently dodging criticism.....Tucker is channeling Donald J Trump.

And it's also seems convenient since Tucker has been a promoter of Trump' association with national socialism, racism and authoritarian rule.


----------



## Johnny b

Lame-0 Trump comes, obviously late, to push his Boss under the buss.
Has Putin lost his appeal or Donnie just now figured out he'd get more votes backpedaling and hoping America forgot his original support of Putin and what he was doing?

* Trump calls the Russian invasion 'a holocaust,' urges Russia to stop fighting *
https://thehill.com/homenews/admini...ian-invasion-a-holocaust-urges-russia-to-stop


----------



## Wino

The orange twit will say or do whatever he thinks will benefit him - no more, no less. I've not been surprised we've had crooks as Prez and VP, but never thought I'd see one that was a crook AND a treasonous traitor like Donnie the Dummy. Much less that many people would support his sedition.


----------



## Johnny b

Headline says it all:

* Jan. 6 panel sees evidence of Trump 'criminal conspiracy' *
https://apnews.com/d6f316446682ea36e85e2fc4e0581a87



> Trump and his associates engaged in a "criminal conspiracy" to prevent Congress from certifying Democrat Joe Biden's victory in the Electoral College, the House committee said in a court filing.


Oddly, that might just be a vote getter in elements of the GOP.


----------



## Wino

Sadly, nothing will deter the dedicated sycophants, mullets, crazies, idiots, mush minded righties worshiping his majestical golden hinie. Alternate facts and alternate reality will prevail in their world. Eventually, Putin and DJT will be bookends to Hitler's Reich in history.


----------



## Johnny b

*Trump told GOP donors that North Korea's Kim Jong Un had ability to make his advisers 'cower,' jokingly saying he also wants his staff to 'act like that' *

https://www.businessinsider.com/trump-wishes-staff-obedient-kim-jong-uns-nkorea-wapo-2022-3

I'm doubtful he was joking.
Realistically.....just more of the same.



> According to Isenstadt, Trump told donors, "Somebody called me a Putin apologist the other day...There's no one who's ever been tougher on Russia than me."


I often wonder if Trump apologists believe everything he claims.


----------



## Johnny b

Not surprised:

* Donald Trump Can't Stop Whining About His Failing Social Media App *
( In Whino Veritas  )
https://www.thedailybeast.com/donal...out-his-failing-social-media-app-truth-social



> And during his presidency, Trump routinely marveled at how he was able to instantaneously change cable-news bottom-halves and regularly drive entire news cycles with a flick of a tweet. Trump even told his former attorney general Bill Barr that the way to write a truly "good tweet" was to inject "just the right amount of crazy," according to Barr's account.
> 
> It's just that, right now, he seems to be sticking with long, characteristically incoherent statements that his aides screenshot and post to… Twitter.


Be sure to follow the three links in the above quote


----------



## Johnny b

Interesting but not surprising:

Remember that 'demon seed' voodoo priestess that Trump presented as a Covid-19 expert?
Stella Immanuel.
A member of a supposed medical group of experts, America's Frontline Doctors.
A refresher:
https://www.washingtonpost.com/tech...quine-video-trump-americas-frontline-doctors/

Now, the credited founder of AFD, Simone Gold, has pled guilty to being involved in the January 6th attempt to overthrow the US Government:

* Prominent peddler of COVID misinfo pleads guilty to joining Capitol riot *
https://arstechnica.com/science/202...d-misinfo-pleads-guilty-to-jan-6-riot-charge/



> Dr. Simone Gold, a prominent anti-vaccine doctor who founded a group notorious for widely peddling COVID-19 misinformation, pleaded guilty on Thursday to joining the insurrectionists who violently attacked the US Capitol building on January 6, 2021.
> 
> Gold is the founder of America's Frontline Doctors (AFLDS) and has spent the pandemic downplaying COVID-19, promoting unproven treatments, such as hydroxychloroquine and ivermectin, and casting doubt on the safety and effectiveness of COVID-19 vaccines.


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/America's_Frontline_Doctors


> *America's Frontline Doctors* (*AFLDS*) is an American right-wing political organization.[1][2][3] Affiliated with Tea Party Patriots co-founder Jenny Beth Martin and publicly led by Simone Gold, the group is opposed to measures intended to control the COVID-19 pandemic, such as business closures, stay-at-home orders, and vaccination. The group promotes falsehoods about the COVID-19 pandemic and COVID-19 vaccines.


Sounds a lot like someone posting anti Biden comments in our Controversial Topics forum 

https://time.com/6092368/americas-frontline-doctors-covid-19-misinformation/


> Created as a political project to support the Trump Administration's economic reopening push, it ricocheted from promoting skepticism about COVID-19 to launching a national RV tour to denounce "medical censorship and cancel culture." It promoted hydroxychloroquine as a miracle drug and billed itself as a provider of legal services for people who refuse to be vaccinated or to wear a mask, or who want to stop vaccinations for children.


Trump + Covid deniers --------> nefarious, to say the least.


----------



## Johnny b

Poor Donald Trump.
With friends like this, who needs enemies.

* Roger Stone said Jared Kushner should be 'punished in the most brutal possible way' in previously unheard recordings, WaPo reports *

https://www.businessinsider.com/roger-stone-wanted-jared-kushner-punished-in-brutal-way-wapo-2022-3

( hint, Roger is upset Trump didn't give him a pardon on his way out of the Oval Office )

In reference to Kushner:


> "He's going to get a beating. He needs to have a beating. And needs to be told, 'This time we're just beating you. Next time we're killing you,'" Stone reportedly said to Alejandro.


And in reference to Trump:


> Stone also lashed out against his old friend and ally Donald Trump, who he said had "betrayed" his friends, and said that his presidency was "greatest single mistake in American history,"


Roger, Roger, Roger.....everyone knows, eventually all of Trump's friends, supporters and political confidants 'go under the bus'. 
So you got 'Trumped'.
What made you think you were special?


----------



## Wino

Roger Stone is a wild eyed bat crap crazy much like his bud DJT. His latest rants hold about as much truth as liquid in a sieve. If he were really serious, he'd be in front of the 1/6 commish spilling his guts like a good patriotic American - fat chance that will ever happen.


----------



## Johnny b

Wino said:


> Roger Stone is a wild eyed bat crap crazy much like his bud DJT. ...............


Yep


----------



## Johnny b

Is Trump being seen as a liability to the GOP?
Or maybe just seen as another whiny loser and tired of his insane tirades.
Probably both and maybe more.

* Trump not invited to conservative AEI event *
https://thehill.com/homenews/campaign/597128-trump-not-invited-to-conservative-aei-event


----------



## Wino

Being a one act pony doesn't help. LOL


----------



## Johnny b

Interesting. but again not surprising:

* Grisham: Trump 'admired' Putin's willingness to 'kill whoever' *
https://thehill.com/homenews/media/597362-grisham-trump-admired-putins-willingness-to-kill-whoever



> Former White House Press Secretary Stephanie Grisham said that after working under former president Trump, it was clear to her he "admired" Russian President Vladimir Putin and his willingness to stifle dissent.
> 
> "I think he feared him. I think the man intimidated him," Grisham said of Trump and Putin during a Tuesday appearance on "The View." "I also think he admired him greatly. I think he wanted to be able to kill whoever spoke out against him."
> ...............
> "He loved the people who could kill anyone, including the press," Grisham said. "Donald Trump would be 54 feet below ground hiding [if his country was invaded]. And [Ukrainian president] Volodymyr Zelensky is out there fighting for his country."


----------



## SeanLaurence

Here is a fun website for anyone who is interested in all things Trump shenanigans:
https://trumpfile.org/

Did you know that Fred Trump destroyed the Steeplechase amusement park on Coney Island in 1965 before it could be named a city landmark? 
Just one example of the many family shenanigans documented on this somewhat biased site.


----------



## Johnny b

Wow!


----------



## Johnny b

Trump's new scam.

* Trump held a contest for small donors to have dinner with him, but no one won the prize, report says *
https://www.businessinsider.com/tru...all-dinners-no-one-receives-prize-wapo-2022-3


> Former President Donald Trump's political action committee offered supporters the chance to win an intimate dinner with him if they donated money, but no one received the prize, according to The Washington Post.


Maybe not so new 
* Trump Held a Contest for Small-Dollar Donors to Have Dinner With Him. No One Won *
https://news.yahoo.com/trump-held-contest-small-dollar-215804060.html



> The _Post_'s story echoes a 2019 report by Popular Information which found that Trump's campaign held at least 15 online contests for a chance to win a meal with him - but no one appeared to have actually done so.


Like the old saying: "a fool and his money are soon parted"

Trump is also asking for donations for a new airplane.

* Trump's PAC is fundraising for a new 'Trump Force One' jet after a plane he was traveling in was forced to make an emergency landing this past weekend*
https://www.businessinsider.com/tru...ne-after-plane-makes-emergency-landing-2022-3


----------



## Johnny b

And.... we're off and running.

* Trump calls on supporters to 'lay down their very lives' to defend US against Critical Race Theory *
https://www.businessinsider.com/vid...ters-lay-down-lives-battle-against-crt-2022-3

First thing, what is CRT?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Critical_race_theory


> The word _critical_ in its name is an academic term that refers to critical thinking, critical theory, and scholarly criticism, rather than criticizing or blaming people.
> ..........
> A key CRT concept is intersectionality-the way in which different forms of inequality and identity are affected by interconnections of race, class, gender and disability.


In other words, it's a mechanism for exposing the underlying social problems so inequality can be addressed.
And this is where Trump and Putin come in.

By playing on fears and hatreds that have existed throughout the history of a society, Trump is polarizing our society as he seeks political power.
Putin encourages and supports Trump so to weaken the influence and resolve of the US that keeps him from dominating the world.

In South Carolina, a southern state, that at one time involved itself in open treason, Trump addresses a mentality that was politically known as the Dixiecrat Party which openly supported segregation/racism.

https://www.businessinsider.com/vid...ters-lay-down-lives-battle-against-crt-2022-3


> Former President Donald Trump called on his supporters to "lay down their very lives" to fight against Critical Race Theory at a rally in Florence, South Carolina, on Saturday night.


Trump was involved in sedition and insurrection leading up to the January 6th attack on our government.
It obviously looks like he's committing sedition and advocating insurrection again in a new quest for power.
And it comes at a time during a war where a diversion of US influence benefits Putin.



> "If we allow the Marxists, and communists, and socialists to hate America, there will be no one left to defend our flag or to protect our great country or its freedom,"


Says the Putin puppet that was supported by Putin in our elections.

If you look closely at the intents of fascism and socialism, domination is a focal objective. It's only the paths to that status that differ and violence is frequently a common factor of both.

Trump is now making an open appeal to racism. 
CRT and history are not his friend.


----------



## Johnny b

LOL!


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1503515016426921984


----------



## Johnny b

The above video at Twitter has obviously been pulled 

But 'these things' never die on the Internet.
For those just now reading this thread.....enjoy:


----------



## Johnny b

And now a word/words.....from a representative of Vladimir Putin, once a personal good friend and manager of Donald J Trump.

Vlad apparently wants Alaska back, along with parts of California calling it 'reparations' for the damage sanctions have caused.

That's right, the man Trump and his supporters once called 'friend' and even defended while Russia invaded the Ukraine wants to punish us for reacting to their war crimes.

Lindsey Graham all of a sudden wants him assassinated. ( a lotta oil up in Alaska  )
Donald seems to be fence sitting. ( I just want your vote. )

* Lawmakers reject Russian official's request to return Alaska: 'Never, ever, ever' *
https://news.yahoo.com/lawmakers-reject-russian-officials-request-183715289.html


----------



## Wino

It's not something we all don't already know.........................................

https://www.alternet.org/2022/03/trump-voters/

Tough decision which thread to post this link - it applies to so many !!


----------



## Johnny b

Wino said:


> It's not something we all don't already know.........................................
> 
> https://www.alternet.org/2022/03/trump-voters/
> 
> Tough decision which thread to post this link - it applies to so many !!


It's an unfortunate generality that's too common.
It would have fit in anywhere you chose.

Too much extremism.


----------



## Johnny b

Insanity.


----------



## Johnny b

I don't ever remember a loser getting this much attention.

*Mo Brooks says Trump asked him to 'immediately' remove Biden from office and illegally hold a new presidential election *
https://www.businessinsider.com/mo-...gally-hold-a-new-presidential-election-2022-3



> Republican Rep. Mo Brooks of Alabama said on Wednesday that former President Donald Trump pressed him to illegally remove President Joe Biden from office and hold a new presidential election, moves that are both unconstitutional.


----------



## phantomroseexpre

I despise Donald Trump. Nevertheless, he wasn't as bad as media made him out to be. He had some good ideas, without necessarily having savvy or will to successfully carry out policies.


----------



## Couriant

phantomroseexpre said:


> I despise Donald Trump. Nevertheless, he wasn't as bad as media made him out to be. He had some good ideas, without necessarily having savvy or will to successfully carry out policies.


You can't blame media painting him in a bad light. He did that himself. Especially how he carried himself int the presidential debate


----------



## Couriant

Johnny b said:


> Trump's new scam.
> 
> * Trump held a contest for small donors to have dinner with him, but no one won the prize, report says *
> https://www.businessinsider.com/tru...all-dinners-no-one-receives-prize-wapo-2022-3
> 
> Maybe not so new
> * Trump Held a Contest for Small-Dollar Donors to Have Dinner With Him. No One Won *
> https://news.yahoo.com/trump-held-contest-small-dollar-215804060.html
> 
> Like the old saying: "a fool and his money are soon parted"
> 
> Trump is also asking for donations for a new airplane.
> 
> * Trump's PAC is fundraising for a new 'Trump Force One' jet after a plane he was traveling in was forced to make an emergency landing this past weekend*
> https://www.businessinsider.com/tru...ne-after-plane-makes-emergency-landing-2022-3


Didn't he already had a plane that was left to rot somewhere?


----------



## Johnny b

phantomroseexpre said:


> I despise Donald Trump. Nevertheless, he wasn't as bad as media made him out to be. He had some good ideas, without necessarily having savvy or will to successfully carry out policies.


It does depend on the news source.
Both left and right extremes have news outlets that curry their attention.

But all in all, most of main stream media reported Trump policies as they played out.
Too many people pick a favorite that focus on projecting their beliefs.
That's why it's best to be reading an assortment, looking for differing views and the reasons for discrepancies.

Donald Trump as President was worse than what the main stream media initially projected.
It took a pandemic to expose the real DJT.
And he finalized his administrative duties with sedition and insurrection.
He was never republican, only a card carrying member of a political party of the same name which no longer reflects the goals of it's founder.
As a real estate developer, he ran with the liberal Democrats of New York City.
It's been said he spent time as an Independent.
But to get elected, he needed a polarized following not available as a Democrat and obviously not as an Independent.
The GOP had been becoming a party of the discontented for several decades, losing it's historical identity in the process.
It became the perfect setting for a grassroots movement of the disaffected.
Extremists.
From militant militias to libertarian anarchists, white supremacist, nationalists ( aka fascists ) and now ex Communists. A lot more, too. Cultists like Qanon, anti-vaxxers and even religious groups and apparently elements of that old Dixiecrat Party.
Trump draws on them for his power and influence.
And they do seem very loyal.

Donald J Trump became a pied piper of radical malcontents bent on re-imaging a nation to DJT's will and there is no room for a democratic society.

Presidential historians already place him as low as the 4th worst President.

Donald J Trump was and still is, only a malevolent opportunist.
It's what he does


----------



## Johnny b

Couriant said:


> Didn't he already had a plane that was left to rot somewhere?


I seem to remember it was being refitted. Mostly a maintenance issue.


----------



## SeanLaurence

I would be interested in hearing what you think were his "good ideas".
David Frum - a harsh Trump critic, penned this piece in an attempt to redeem the now Ex President.
Are these the ideas that you have in mind? Or something else?
https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2020/12/the-things-trump-got-right/617424/



phantomroseexpre said:


> I despise Donald Trump. Nevertheless, he wasn't as bad as media made him out to be. He had some good ideas, without necessarily having savvy or will to successfully carry out policies.


----------



## SeanLaurence

An excellent opinion piece Johnny, although I think you meant "as *high* as 5th worst President."
The "Scholar survey summary" on Wikipedia shows him ranked 44, 42 and 41 out of the 45 presidents so far on the 3 surveys that included him.
so that would be 2nd worst (APSA 2018), 4th worst (Siena 2018) or 5th worst (C-Span July 2021) depending on who you asked.

Frankly, I was shocked to see such a high rating, until I examined the metrics used:
He was ranked 32 out of 45 for "Public Persuasion" - Is that a good thing if you are persuading the public to ignore a pandemic and let it spread?
Economic Management: 34: Really? He did nothing for the first 3 years except let the economy continue to improve on the policies that Obama had put in place. The only thing he (and the GOP) did towards this is the massive tax cut for the rich. And when the pandemic came along, the economy crashed for much longer and harder than it would have if it had been handled better.
https://www.c-span.org/presidentsurvey2021/?personid=20967



Johnny b said:


> Presidential historians already place him as low as the 4th worst President.


----------



## Johnny b

It is difficult to imagine a worse American President.

But as bad and ineffective as he has been, the most outrageous aspect of his presidency is the acceptance by a large segment of our population approving his acts of sedition and attempted insurrection.
All of the US has seen the January 6th video clips by now.
IMO, there is no excuse for acceptance and promotion of DJT, only a reason. The wanton destruction of a free society


----------



## Wino

SeanLaurence said:


> I would be interested in hearing what you think were his "good ideas".
> David Frum - a harsh Trump critic, penned this piece in an attempt to redeem the now Ex President.
> Are these the ideas that you have in mind? Or something else?
> https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2020/12/the-things-trump-got-right/617424/


The Frum article reads like a "Sheriff Can't Shoot Straight" story. An orange buffoon, for sure.


----------



## phantomroseexpre

Couriant said:


> You can't blame media painting him in a bad light. He did that himself. Especially how he carried himself int the presidential debate


The fact is that the media did lie a lot about him and much of what he said. E.g.: Ivermectin has been known to show positive results in proper concentrations/doses. Lowering tariffs on goods from Mexico improves its economy and encourages its citizens to stay in Mexico.


----------



## SeanLaurence

phantomroseexpre said:


> The fact is that the media did lie a lot about him and much of what he said. E.g.: Ivermectin has been known to show positive results in proper concentrations/doses. Lowering tariffs on goods from Mexico improves its economy and encourages its citizens to stay in Mexico.


I don't recall Trump ever advocating for using Ivermectin to treat Covid-19. Hydroxychloroquine was more his thing. Even if he did, the only studies that showed any benefit of Ivermectin are those in regions where strongyloidiasis is prevalent. 
I don't know how you came to thinking that Trump lowered tariffs on Mexican goods. In fact he was a huge advocate for increasing tariffs and did impose tariffs on steel and aluminum from Canada and Mexico. These were later rescinded. You are giving him credit for walking back a bad idea?


----------



## Johnny b

phantomroseexpre said:


> The fact is that the media did lie a lot about him and much of what he said. E.g.: Ivermectin has been known to show positive results in proper concentrations/doses. Lowering tariffs on goods from Mexico improves its economy and encourages its citizens to stay in Mexico.


You're sounding like an apologist 

Of course. It depends on the type of media you've been reading.
What is generally described as 'mainstream' followed events as they played out with few needed corrections.

And it's been pretty hard to hide Trump's lies with all the video taping of them lol!



> Ivermectin has been known to show positive results in proper concentrations/doses.


Reliable sources disagree.
So far, every study posted at this site that supports your claim has been found to be flawed.
Trump told the general public to take questionable unscientific remedies but when infected, took FDA and CDC recommended treatments, some that weren't even available to the general public at the time.



> Lowering tariffs on goods from Mexico improves its economy and encourages its citizens to stay in Mexico.


That's your theory, not Trump's.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trump_tariffs


> However, on May 30, Trump unilaterally announced his intention to impose a five percent tariff on all imports from Mexico beginning on June 10, with tariffs increasing to ten percent on July 1, and by another five percent each month for three months, "until such time as illegal migrants coming through Mexico, and into our Country, STOP," adding illegal immigration as a condition for U.S.-Mexico tariff negotiations.
> ............
> The tariffs were averted on June 7 after negotiations.


However, this is also noted:


> A May 2019 analysis conducted by CNBC found Trump's tariffs are equivalent to one of the largest tax increases in the U.S. in decades. Studies have found that Trump's tariffs reduced real income in the United States, as well as adversely affecting U.S. GDP. Some studies also concluded that the tariffs adversely affected Republican candidates in elections.


So....why is it you despise Trump?


----------



## Couriant

Forgive me if I have this mixed up as I don't know much about import/export... but isn't the tariffs on imported stuff gets charged to the US buyer? And if so, what's that got to do with illegal immigration? If Mexico is not the one getting the charge, what do their citizens care about it?


----------



## Johnny b

Couriant said:


> Forgive me if I have this mixed up as I don't know much about import/export... but isn't the tariffs on imported stuff gets charged to the US buyer? And if so, what's that got to do with illegal immigration? If Mexico is not the one getting the charge, what do their citizens care about it?


I think what phantomroseexpre was trying to express, if trade barriers were removed, more manufacturing and business concerns would occur in Mexico reducing the number of immigrants seeking better lives. ( edit: more jobs )

That was definitely not one of the theories Trump had in mind 

His base wanted jobs returned to the US and that was one of his promises, but he rationalized a trade war as a solution. Which didn't work. The American consumer took the hit as the Trump Administration collected those tariffs as if an additional sales tax on imports. That failed to have the desired impact on Chinese imports. The trade balance at the time, for the US, only got worse.

Also to consider, many of the illegal immigrants are non-Mexican Hispanics.
Problems exist in other Latin-American countries that creating jobs for Mexicans would not address.


----------



## Wino

Seeing as how Mexico is only nation on southern border of USA, would be hard NOT to enter from there into USA without Mexico and it's territorial waters regardless of national origin - and it isn't just Central & S. America, it's from worldwide. We've been as successful with drug war as we have been illegal immigration - which means they've been a failure in past, currently and future. Both a huge waste of monies with no real ROI.


----------



## SeanLaurence

Wino said:


> Seeing as how Mexico is only nation on southern border of USA, would be hard NOT to enter from there into USA without Mexico and it's territorial waters regardless of national origin - and it isn't just Central & S. America, it's from worldwide. We've been as successful with drug war as we have been illegal immigration - which means they've been a failure in past, currently and future. Both a huge waste of monies with no real ROI.


The whole issue of immigration is fraught.
The unspoken truth is that keeping aliens illegal allows them to be exploited. If you are an illegal farm worker, you can't complain of bad working conditions or low pay, so the farmer gets a deal on their labour and we get cheap lettuce in the supermarket.

Here in Canada, we don't have the benefit of Latinos sneaking over the border, so we have migrant worker programs instead. Almost the same deal though. The rules are restrictive so that a single employer sponsors them into the country. If things don't work out, they don't have an opportunity to find work down the street, rather, they get sent back home. So they shut up and keep picking cherries for our supermarkets.

In the mean time, with declining birth rates, we NEED immigrants to make up the shortfall, because apparently declining populations are not good for GDP.

One would think that everyone would see this obvious exploitation of the least privileged that share the planet with us, but hey - we all like to eat our lettuce and cherries.


----------



## Johnny b

Just a thought.....


With climate change, we'll be needing fewer and fewer farm laborers.

Problem solved.


----------



## Johnny b

Shocking, just shocking I tell you!!!

(  but not a surprise )

Praising his master:

* 'Smartest one gets to the top': Trump again praises Putin at Georgia rally *
https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2022/mar/26/donald-trump-georgia-republican-primary-rally



> Ex-president also had warm words for Xi Jinping and Kim Jong-un at event as primary races heat up before midterms elections


No way to get around it, Trump is a crowd pleaser.


----------



## Johnny b

A crazy Ohio GOP Senate primary coming up.
Ohio is Trump country but none of the Senate candidates has so far gotten the 'nod' from The Donald.
Mandel appears to be the most vociferous of the lot in his praise of Trump, but he's very anti China at a time when The Donald seems to be reconsidering Xi Jinping in a positive light. It will be interesting to see how he explains that away!
And he certainly knows how the get into shouting matches with out responding to debate.

* In Ohio's GOP Senate race, there are Trump wannabees - but no Trump endorsement *
https://www.boisestatepublicradio.o...-are-trump-wannabees-but-no-trump-endorsement

Just something to watch for chuckles and grins 

* Ohio's GOP Senate Primary Is Getting Too Stupid, It's Even Turned Off Donald Trump *
https://www.thedailybeast.com/ohios-gop-senate-primary-is-getting-too-stupid-even-for-donald-trump


> When an Ohio Senate debate devolved into a MAGA shouting match late last week-replete with apparent threats of violence and one candidate accusing the other of being a "(edit: sorry, I had to edit out the comment  )"- the Audience of One each of the top-tier candidates has been thirstily trying to emulate for months was not amused.


----------



## Johnny b

War criminals and their apologist, Carlson, seek to influence a US Presidential election with propagandist arguments to back Trump.
It's an interesting read.

* Kremlin TV Hopes Russia's Unhinged Ukraine War Claim Will Help Re-Elect Trump *
https://news.yahoo.com/kremlin-tv-hopes-putin-unhinged-095626302.html

The gist:


> Putin's invasion of Ukraine pitted Russia against most of the world, leaving Kremlin propagandists yearning for any tidbits of pro-Russian sentiment in the United States. These days, state television draws on a bounty of translated quotes almost exclusively from two Western voices: Tucker Carlson of _Fox News_ and former U.S. President Donald J. Trump. They have a plan to reward them both: Carlson with a highly coveted interview with Russian President Vladimir Putin, and Trump with a freebie PR campaign designed to light his path back to the White House.


----------



## Wino

https://storage.courtlistener.com/recap/gov.uscourts.cacd.841840/gov.uscourts.cacd.841840.260.0.pdf

I expect this ruling is going to cause extreme case of diarrhea for orange buffoon and his worshipers. Fairly good time line of criminality by an ex-prez.


----------



## Johnny b

Wino said:


> https://storage.courtlistener.com/recap/gov.uscourts.cacd.841840/gov.uscourts.cacd.841840.260.0.pdf
> 
> I expect this ruling is going to cause extreme case of diarrhea for orange buffoon and his worshipers. Fairly good time line of criminality by an ex-prez.


This is one for the history books.
It is extraordinary.
And it needs to be realized that every person that supported and still supports their activities are guilty of same, if not similar, conspiracy charges.

https://www.nytimes.com/2022/03/28/us/politics/trump-election-crimes.html


----------



## Johnny b

What can I say.
It's all about a President 'breaking bad'. 

It's a long and well detailed article.
I suspect there will be more on the subject 

* New Focus on How a Trump Tweet Incited Far-Right Groups Before Jan. 6 *
https://www.nytimes.com/2022/03/29/us/politics/trump-tweet-jan-6.html



> Federal prosecutors and congressional investigators are documenting how the former president's "Be there, will be wild!" post became a catalyst for militants before the Capitol assault.


----------



## Johnny b

With the Nation's attention focusing on The Donald's sedition and insurrection issues, I suspect much of his other criminal activities go 'under the radar'.

However, this popped up this morning:

* Donald Trump and his children agree to be deposed in fraudulent marketing lawsuit *
https://www.cnn.com/2022/03/25/politics/donald-trump-children-deposition-lawsuit/index.html



> The lawsuit, which was filed in 2018, alleges that in exchange for "secret" payments, Trump and three of his adult children used his reality TV show "The Celebrity Apprentice" and other promotional events as vehicles to boost ACN Opportunity, a telecommunications marketing company linked to a nonprofit that used Trump's brand to appeal to teens.
> 
> The Trumps are accused of pocketing millions in payments between 2005 and 2015 to promote what they described as promising business opportunities: ACN Opportunity, as well as the Trump Network, a vitamin and health product marketing company, and The Trump Institute, a seminar program that "purported to sell Trump's 'secrets to success,'" according to the lawsuit.


I well remember Trump's 'Institute'.
Out of curiosity, I signed up for a news letter.
I was amazed at how easily they thought a fool and his money could be separated 
But they seemed to do it.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trump_University


----------



## Johnny b

This one's an attention grabber !

Trump, burner phones, missing phone calls in the official White House logs and of course sedition and insurrection.....all on January 6th.

* Trump phone logs turned over to House show 7-hour gap on Jan. 6 *
https://www.cbsnews.com/news/trump-calls-seven-hour-gap-january-6/

Be sure to watch the news video at the link.


----------



## Wino

Drip, drip, drip as the truth oozes out and same for orange sweat from brow of our scumbag ex-prez.


----------



## Johnny b

Mo shoots fellow Republican National Socialist in the foot. Or was it the back?
So sad.

* The Jan. 6 panel had cooled focus on GOP lawmakers. Then Brooks happened. *
https://www.politico.com/news/2022/03/29/jan-6-panel-mo-brooks-00021484



> The Jan. 6 select committee seemed close to concluding that compelling Republican lawmakers to testify wasn't worth the inevitable ugly fight. Then Rep. Mo Brooks dropped a bomb.
> 
> The Alabama Republican revealed in a public statement last week that former President Donald Trump had repeatedly, and recently, raised the idea of attempting to rescind the 2020 election results and reinstall him as president. It was a stunning allegation that would show Trump not only attempted to subvert the 2020 election while in office, but that he is extracting promises from allies to try again if they take power in 2023.


Shocking.


----------



## Johnny b

* Journalist who hosted Trump's latest interview was disowned by The Hill and Fox News after pushing disinformation about the Bidens and Ukraine *
https://www.businessinsider.com/trump-interviewed-by-solomon-disowned-hill-fox-news-2022-3



> Donald Trump has once again provoked a firestorm of controversy with his his remarks about Russian President Vladimir Putin.
> 
> In an interview with conservative journalist John Solomon Tuesday on his
> streaming
> service Real America's Voice, Trump addressed the war in Ukraine. Trump pivoted, calling on the Russian president to provide information about Hunter Biden, Joe Biden's son, who is the target of a renewed GOP and Russian propaganda campaign.
> .............
> Fox News, with whom Solomon was working as a commentator, severed ties with him later that year. An internal memo obtained by The Daily Beast warned that he had promoted "disinformation" about Ukraine.
> 
> But with Putin's invasion of Ukraine, the old smears are being put to renewed use, and not just by Trump.


I've been wondering where Ed got those crazy ideas. Solomon.


----------



## Couriant

I'm more surprised that Fox News disowned him... That's more up their alley...


----------



## Johnny b

Couriant said:


> I'm more surprised that Fox News disowned him... That's more up their alley...


It is interesting, especially since Fox seems to be currently ramping up an assault against Hunter again. Only now it's linking him to a defunct Chinese company that was so fraught with fraud, with that kind of confusion, almost anything could be claimed.

edit.....I expect to see Ed linking to it in the near future


----------



## Johnny b

Looks like Hunter does have a lot of explaining to do:
Shame on him. lol!

*Inside Hunter Biden's multimillion-dollar deals with a Chinese energy company *
https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/2022/03/30/hunter-biden-china-laptop/

Now Joe does have some explaining to do also.


----------



## Johnny b

Putin gets schooled on Trump loyalism.

* Trump denies calling Putin a 'genius' *
https://news.yahoo.com/trump-denies-calling-putin-a-genius-214302904.html

So....Donald.....how's it feel to cut off one of your biggest supporters?
Vlad.....really?.....you expected a different scenario with all the American support evident for Ukraine?

The coming election in the US was responsible for the 'bus' tracks The Donald just left all over your body (  )

From the above link:


> But as the devastation unfolded, the American public and politicians of both major U.S. parties have been uniform in their opposition to the attack. According to a Pew Research Center poll released Wednesday, 92% of Americans said they have little or no confidence in Putin's handling of world affairs. Just 6% expressed confidence in him.
> 
> Trump, who sharply criticized NATO during his presidency as "obsolete," is now attempting to take credit for strengthening the military alliance amid the Ukraine conflict.


Vlad.....he's done stuff like that to us, too.


----------



## Wino

Sad commentary about a worthless ex-prez:

_"As is so often the case with Clinton, she almost got it right. One is tempted to say that Trump hasn't learned anything from his past errors, but in fact he's grasped the lessons far better than his critics. He knows by now that no one can or will stop him from soliciting and receiving illicit help.

In 2016, he sought help from Russia, not only in his public remarks but also privately. He got away with that: He won the election, aided by Russian hacking, and faced no tangible consequences. In 2019, he tried to blackmail Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelensky into boosting his presidential campaign by announcing an investigation into Hunter Biden. He got away with that, too: He was impeached by the House but was not convicted, and although he lost the 2020 election, the impeachment was probably not a decisive factor. After that loss, he attempted to overturn the results and steal the election. It didn't work either, but he got away with that, as well. A second impeachment also ended without a conviction, and Trump is now the favorite for the Republican nomination in 2024.

[David A. Graham: Collusion happened]"_


----------



## Johnny b

I am amazed Trump is still news worthy.


----------



## Wino

Johnny b said:


> I am amazed Trump is still news worthy.


In a sane world, he would already be in the trash bin of history. In this era of 'alternative' facts and 'alternate' reality, all bets are off.


----------



## Johnny b

True, and with this kind of mentality, anything goes:


----------



## Wino

That's just sicko. A JFK fart had more intelligence than Trump. Puro blasphemy JFK/Trump should appear together on a flag or anywhere for that matter. DJT wouldn't even qualify to carry JFK's jock strap.


----------



## Johnny b

Well, if you think that was sicko, get a load of this from the 'Trump people':

* QAnon Is Still Spreading a Bizarre Conspiracy Theory About Adrenochrome*

https://www.menshealth.com/health/a34786868/what-is-adrenochrome-qanon/

That is just wrong in so many ways.

And this:


> Like it or not, there are signs the group's influence is growing.


----------



## Wino

Caffeine does it for me. No need to drain others 'precious bodily fluids' !!


----------



## Bastiat

Wino said:


> Caffeine does it for me. No need to drain others 'precious bodily fluids' !!


Name that movie and don't Google it. Given current events the movie might be a little scary.


----------



## Wino

Dr. Strangelove or How I learned to Love the Bomb. Scary then and now, along with "Fail Safe" in same era.


----------



## Johnny b

There are many, Strangelove would be one.
I first thought of 'On the Beach'
( Guess that pins down my age lol )

That's a nuclear concern.

Chemical/biological, also many.
TV's The Walking Dead first came to mind.


----------



## Wino

Johnny b said:


> There are many, Strangelove would be one.
> I first thought of 'On the Beach'
> ( Guess that pins down my age lol )
> 
> That's a nuclear concern.
> 
> Chemical/biological, also many.
> TV's The Walking Dead first came to mind.


The movie (On the Beach) was a good adaptation of Shute's book - unusual in Hollywood.

Quit watching Walking Dead when DJT became president - too much reality of the future with DJT and the zombies were smarter than he.


----------



## Couriant

Opinion piece but I believe it:

https://www.businessinsider.com/trump-truth-social-media-app-review-ghost-town-overrun-bots-2022-3

So I guess they like their Russian bot friends too …


----------



## Johnny b

Sounds like the site was built 'on the cheap'.
Security is probably weak.

And I suspect most posts there are merely repetition.


----------



## Wino

Half assed like everything DJT touches. Albeit, his glacial slow moving coup is still in process inching toward Idiotocracy version of autocracy.

https://www.walmart.com/ip/Alternat...-Series-105-Paperback-9781927645314/537908788


----------



## Johnny b

Wino said:


> Half assed like everything DJT touches. Albeit, his glacial slow moving coup is still in process inching toward Idiotocracy version of autocracy.
> 
> https://www.walmart.com/ip/Alternat...-Series-105-Paperback-9781927645314/537908788





> Half assed like everything DJT touches.


4 years of it and they argue for more?!!!

That's a real dedication to ignorance.


----------



## Johnny b

Bastiat said:


> Name that movie and don't Google it. Given current events the movie might be a little scary.


I googled it LOL!
Yep...Strangelove it is.

I found this reddit comment

__
https://www.reddit.com/r/movies/comments/3hjz44



> The whole 'bodily fluids' was well known McCarthyism based thinkers believing that the government was slowly turning us all into communists through water fluoridation & polio shots.


Yeah....the Qanon/Trump response to Covid vaccines.

Well done Bastiat  :up:


----------



## Wino

Johnny b said:


> Sounds like the site was built 'on the cheap'.
> Security is probably weak.
> 
> And I suspect most posts there are merely repetition.


Only real benefit I've seen from this venture is Devin Nunes is no longer in Congress - and that's a good thing !!
https://www.queerty.com/devin-nunes-maybe-probably-stay-off-twitter-today-20220331


----------



## Johnny b

More on 'Truth Social'

* Trump's Truth Social app branded a disaster *
https://www.bbc.com/news/technology-60922717


----------



## Johnny b

Many Republicans are getting queasy about supporting Putin.
The way things are going with Putin's war, only the 'Trump People' will be true to The Donald so they've started focusing on oil and inflation issues, not realizing those started with Trump.

Simply do a search using the terms: *Republicans are getting queasy about supporting Putin.*
Interesting results. A lot of distension in the GOP ranks.

And The Donald seems more erratic these days. Hard to imagine that


----------



## SeanLaurence

Johnny b said:


> started focusing on oil and inflation issues, not realizing those started with Trump.


So you are an "Energy" (read oil?) guy right?
I was reading some stuff on the Strategic Oil Reserve the other day and saw that in early 2020, when The lockdowns were instituted world wide, and the price of oil went to about $25 / Barrel, Trump wanted to use the opportunity to top up the reserve on the cheap. This was proposed to be put in the first "Covid Relief" bill, but the Dems shot it down on account of it being too beneficial to the oil industry.
If it had gone through, then we would be in a better place today in terms of having more reserves to draw from and Biden would get the benefit of windfall profits on behalf of the taxpayer.

Fewer wells would have been taken out of production as well. 
I did hear that such a scheme may have been difficult to implement for technical reasons, but it does seem like a lost opportunity for everyone except those who would use high gas prices as a means to wean everyone off of fossil fuels.

Thoughts?


----------



## Johnny b

SeanLaurence said:


> So you are an "Energy" (read oil?) guy right?
> .....................


Reality and pragmatism.

Most of my investing focuses on needful things, from utilities ( electricity, which is energy) to common but needful consumer goods ( think P&G ).
Oil, a few shares inherited, but nothing bought.

As far as oil goes, just a bystander providing commentary


----------



## Johnny b

SeanLaurence said:


> ...................
> I was reading some stuff on the Strategic Oil Reserve the other day and saw that in early 2020, when The lockdowns were instituted world wide, and the price of oil went to about $25 / Barrel, Trump wanted to use the opportunity to top up the reserve on the cheap. This was proposed to be put in the first "Covid Relief" bill, but the Dems shot it down on account of it being too beneficial to the oil industry.
> If it had gone through, then we would be in a better place today in terms of having more reserves to draw from and Biden would get the benefit of windfall profits on behalf of the taxpayer.
> 
> Fewer wells would have been taken out of production as well.
> I did hear that such a scheme may have been difficult to implement for technical reasons, but it does seem like a lost opportunity for everyone except those who would use high gas prices as a means to wean everyone off of fossil fuels.
> 
> Thoughts?


Interesting.
Let me point out that the loudest argument the Trump faction has is Democrat involvement in socialist activities.
Ignore influences of corruption and politics for the moment.
From purely a capitalistic pov, why should any business be subsidized?

For security, obviously.
But how quickly can a capped well be returned to productivity?
I don't know, Wayne might, but a lot less than drilling new wells.

Currently, there is no shortage of refined oil in the US.
The problem being addressed comes from a war in Europe and support Biden promised in regards to their current source which is the antagonist. Russia.

There will be shortages, in the future. And the oil industry seems intent on not increasing production at this time.

The oil argument to 'drill baby drill' is a fallacy.



> If it had gone through, then we would be in a better place today in terms of having more reserves to draw from and Biden would get the benefit of windfall profits on behalf of the taxpayer.


The 'If Game'.
So many factors there Sean.
If Trump had responded in 2019 to the Covid outbreak in China, would our health and economy had taken such a severe hit.
To be fair, and I didn't vote for GW Bush, he did allow for preparedness of pandemics and we weren't affected. Sars and Ebola.
If Obama hadn't spent time drawing red lines to Russian aggression, would they be taking us more seriously now?
If B Clinton hadn't signed the legislation that allowed the banking industry to trade derivatives as if the had true value, would a 2008 recession that started under GW Bush have been averted leaving us in a significantly better economy.
And I point out Obama had difficulty funding pandemic preparedness because of that recession and Trump ignored the situation right up to his denials of it.
Whew! And I know I missed a lot of 'If's

The status we have now has been an overlooked possibility for a long time.



> ......but it does seem like a lost opportunity for everyone except those who would use high gas prices as a means to wean everyone off of fossil fuels.


imo, temporary at best. Sanctions and what I think is a coming military conflict will erase most of any initial advantage.
If the sanctions don't work, there is going to be a lot of human suffering following their failure. And I suspect the US will be involved.
Wars use fossil fuels.
There is no thinking 'green' when they start.


----------



## Johnny b

SeanLaurence said:


> ........................
> I was reading some stuff on the Strategic Oil Reserve the other day and saw that in early 2020, when The lockdowns were instituted world wide, and the price of oil went to about $25 / Barrel, Trump wanted to use the opportunity to top up the reserve on the cheap. .........


When it comes to Trump, there's always 'more to the story'.
I remember reading one of his bizarre claims recently.
Here's a Forbes article you might be interested in:



> *No, Former President Trump Did Not Fill The Strategic Petroleum Reserve*


https://www.forbes.com/sites/rrapie...did-not-fill-the-strategic-petroleum-reserve/

This stands out:


> However, 1). The directive was never carried out; and 2). The SPR was already within 13% of its highest-ever level when that directive was issued. So it's not as if the SPR was empty at the time.


Mountains out of mole hills.


----------



## Bastiat

There was a study that was reported in the Washington Post today (sorry don't have time to find the link) in which diehard Fox only watching Republicans were paid to watch CNN ($15 per hour) a minimum of 7 hours per week during the normal time they watched Fox. Amazingly their political opinions began to change quickly and they were not so sure of the crap they observed on Fox. Seems it is possible to fight Fox brainwashing.

I leave it to you guys to find the link to the article. I have to go make a living.


----------



## Couriant

Bastiat said:


> There was a study that was reported in the Washington Post today (sorry don't have time to find the link) in which diehard Fox only watching Republicans were paid to watch CNN ($15 per hour) a minimum of 7 hours per week during the normal time they watched Fox. Amazingly their political opinions began to change quickly and they were not so sure of the crap they observed on Fox. Seems it is possible to fight Fox brainwashing.
> 
> I leave it to you guys to find the link to the article. I have to go make a living.












Didn't get that far for the search... hahah

https://ca.news.yahoo.com/fox-viewers-transformed-watching-cnn-063911412.html


----------



## SeanLaurence

Johnny b said:


> Interesting.


I am glad you think so.


> Let me point out that the loudest argument the Trump faction has is Democrat involvement in socialist activities.


I was afraid you would see a commie behind the bush. Try to see government in a manner that it acts as a regulator, rather than an opportunity to disrupt for no good reason.



> From purely a capitalistic pov, why should any business be subsidized?
> For security, obviously.


I am glad you answered your own question. Also for stability. Markets hate volatility and the sudden drop in oil demand caused by the early 2020 lockdowns seem to be a perfect place for the government to step in and take the oil off the hands of producers.



> But how quickly can a capped well be returned to productivity?
> I don't know, Wayne might, but a lot less than drilling new wells.


I understand that restarting production does involve significant time and cost. Sometimes wells don't restart after being shut down.



> Currently, there is no shortage of refined oil in the US.
> The problem being addressed comes from a war in Europe and support Biden promised in regards to their current source which is the antagonist. Russia.
> There will be shortages, in the future. And the oil industry seems intent on not increasing production at this time.
> The oil argument to 'drill baby drill' is a fallacy.


So you are in agreement with the prevailing thought that the high prices are due to the Russia Ukraine war affecting oil prices on the global market. I have always wondered how oil prices have always been as low as they are given how addicted we are to it. We are seeing now that they don't have to be.



> If Trump had responded in 2019 to the Covid outbreak in China, would our health and economy had taken such a severe hit.
> To be fair, and I didn't vote for GW Bush, he did allow for preparedness of pandemics and we weren't affected. Sars and Ebola.
> If Obama hadn't spent time drawing red lines to Russian aggression, would they be taking us more seriously now?


I like to blame Trump for kneecapping the NSC's Directorate for Global Health Security and Biodefense in 2018. I don't think the effect of that action has been properly studied.
Bill Clinton was arguably the first president to take pandemic preparedness seriously. GW expanded on the ideas.



> If B Clinton hadn't signed the legislation that allowed the banking industry to trade derivatives as if the had true value, would a 2008 recession that started under GW Bush have been averted leaving us in a significantly better economy.
> 
> 
> 
> I have heard that. How foreseeable were the consequences of that legislation at the time?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> And I point out Obama had difficulty funding pandemic preparedness because of that recession and Trump ignored the situation right up to his denials of it.
> /QUOTE]
> There was a lot of obstruction from the other side that prevented Obama from doing many things. Much like today.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> imo, temporary at best. Sanctions and what I think is a coming military conflict will erase most of any initial advantage.
> If the sanctions don't work, there is going to be a lot of human suffering following their failure. And I suspect the US will be involved.
> 
> 
> 
> I hope you are wrong about a broader military conflict. It seems that there is much effort being spent on averting a shooting war with NATO
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Wars use fossil fuels. There is no thinking 'green' when they start.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Yep.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Click to expand...
Click to expand...


----------



## SeanLaurence

Johnny b said:


> When it comes to Trump, there's always 'more to the story'.
> I remember reading one of his bizarre claims recently.
> Here's a Forbes article you might be interested in:
> https://www.forbes.com/sites/rrapie...did-not-fill-the-strategic-petroleum-reserve/
> Mountains out of mole hills.


Yes, I had seen that article. That was the entrance to the rabbit hole I went down.
13% is not nothing. Taking 2% of the traffic off a jammed freeway can make it run freely again.
Small changes can make big differences.


----------



## Johnny b

SeanLaurence said:


> ..........................
> 
> So you are in agreement with the prevailing thought that the high prices are due to the Russia Ukraine war affecting oil prices on the global market. I have always wondered how oil prices have always been as low as they are given how addicted we are to it. We are seeing now that they don't have to be.
> ..........................


I agree that influence is the current cause.
I mentioned elsewhere that there has been a scenario of manipulation, by Trump, that distorts the reality of the price structure we're seeing.
Trump actually helped end a glut and price war between the Russians and the Saudis by convincing them to reduce extraction. He didn't do it out of the goodness of his heart. He did it to boost prices in order to help out cash strapped domestic producers.
Ed inadvertently posted a graph showing a decline in oil domestic extraction that followed the Covid pandemic.
There are swings in oil prices for various reasons.

A dynamic the Trump People are presenting, as all of Biden's doing.
Not so.
But....there are no shortages in the US and the Strategic Petroleum Reserve was setup for emergencies, not a means to placate the consumer even if an election is approaching.


----------



## Johnny b

SeanLaurence said:


> Yes, I had seen that article. That was the entrance to the rabbit hole I went down.
> 13% is not nothing. Taking 2% of the traffic off a jammed freeway can make it run freely again.
> Small changes can make big differences.


Analogies using traffic patterns 
How about 'the straw that broke the camel's back'?
( and as Tucker would say, 'What does that even mean? ) 

As far as 'running', there are no shortages to address at this time.


----------



## Johnny b

SeanLaurence said:


> ................
> 
> I am glad you answered your own question. Also for stability. Markets hate volatility and the sudden drop in oil demand caused by the early 2020 lockdowns seem to be a perfect place for the government to step in and take the oil off the hands of producers.
> 
> ......................


Stability isn't necessarily an emergency.
And the oil volume in reserve was not at a critical low or even close.
Could it have been an advantageous purchase?
Sure, but there was no need and during Covid, there would be issues of reduced tax collection while rationalizing the outlay.
These were the years of Trump.
Tax cuts damaged many social needs which we realized too late when the pandemic struck.
Support was limited and needed elsewhere, other than topping off oil supplies for emergencies.

IMO, even though you and I have debated over socialism vs capitalism, I've always thought a greater threat exists and it affects both...and that is crime.
And that has been evident in spades with the Trump administration.
Right down to sedition and insurrection.


----------



## Johnny b

https://www.washingtonpost.com/busi...e14052-b34e-11ec-8358-20aa16355fb4_story.html


----------



## SeanLaurence

Johnny b said:


> the Strategic Petroleum Reserve was setup for emergencies, not a means to placate the consumer even if an election is approaching.


That is a cynical way of looking at it. 
That being said, I suspect there are a number of average voters that look at how much it costs them to fill their tank and blame/credit the president.

Is the Reserve set up for "emergencies"?
Looking it up, access is controlled by the EPCA.
"The primary goals of EPCA are to increase energy production and supply, reduce energy demand, provide energy efficiency, and give the executive branch additional powers to respond to disruptions in energy supply"

Are we in a game of chicken with Oil producers? The higher the prices go, the faster people will adopt technologies that don't need it.
Tesla has just opened up a "GigaFactory" in Texas: the largest yet.


----------



## SeanLaurence

Johnny b said:


> IMO, even though you and I have debated over socialism vs capitalism, I've always thought a greater threat exists and it affects both...and that is crime.
> And that has been evident in spades with the Trump administration.
> Right down to sedition and insurrection.


By "crime" are you thinking on a minor scale: theft, assaults etc. or on a greater scale such as wage theft, and corporate / government corruption?

There are tons of problems to be solved out in the world and it infuriates me to see people going on about the "Don't say gay" bill in FL, or the slap at the Oscars.

One FB friend of my mom quoted Putin's ne-Nazification justification for the invasion of Ukraine today.


----------



## Johnny b

SeanLaurence said:


> That is a cynical way of looking at it.
> That being said, I suspect there are a number of average voters that look at how much it costs them to fill their tank and blame/credit the president.
> 
> Is the Reserve set up for "emergencies"?
> Looking it up, access is controlled by the EPCA.
> "The primary goals of EPCA are to increase energy production and supply, reduce energy demand, provide energy efficiency, and give the executive branch additional powers to respond to disruptions in energy supply"
> 
> Are we in a game of chicken with Oil producers? The higher the prices go, the faster people will adopt technologies that don't need it.
> Tesla has just opened up a "GigaFactory" in Texas: the largest yet.


Emergencies:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Strategic_Petroleum_Reserve_(United_States)

Obvious to me, Sean.

There is no supply disruption nor any emergency at this time.
It's all about the oil industry profiteering and politics leading up to an election.

Desperation.
That's simply all it is.



> Are we in a game of chicken with Oil producers?


Well , since the oil industry doesn't want to extract oil at a greater rate...and...there are no supply issues, what makes you think they can be made to do that?
Remember, the US simply isn't that socialist.
'How' becomes a big issue.
And Biden is using a workaround to address a pricing issue 
Freeing up reserves is temporary and does nothing to influence drilling or refining.
It just changes the dynamics of supply and demand....for a short period of time.


----------



## Johnny b

SeanLaurence said:


> By "crime" are you thinking on a minor scale: theft, assaults etc. or on a greater scale such as wage theft, and corporate / government corruption?
> 
> There are tons of problems to be solved out in the world and it infuriates me to see people going on about the "Don't say gay" bill in FL, or the slap at the Oscars.
> 
> One FB friend of my mom quoted Putin's ne-Nazification justification for the invasion of Ukraine today.





> By "crime" are you thinking on a minor scale: theft, assaults etc. or on a greater scale such as wage theft, and corporate / government corruption?


By 'crime' I'm considering society as a whole.
(edit: ) Perhaps 'corruption' would be a better term. But I see it as criminal.
Acceptance in all aspects.



> There are tons of problems to be solved out in the world and it infuriates me to see people going on about the "Don't say gay" bill in FL, or the slap at the Oscars.


Yes, there are 'tons' of problems to be solved.
We've debated gun control in the past and you knew my position.
That was then.
The problem is so bad right now, I truly have no answer on how to address it any more.
There are too many people that should not be allowed to possess firearms. from crazy to criminal.
Worse, there are militant militias demanding their constitutional rights ....that violate as it was originally written. The first four words are meaningless to them.
* A well regulated Militia *
(The term 'regulated' has historical significance)
And as we now know, at least two of the largest and most violent Militias were there on January 6th, joined in the assault on our government.

Tons of problems. Where do we start? ( rhetorical )



> One FB friend of my mom quoted Putin's ne-Nazification justification for the invasion of Ukraine today.


Yeah, I've read of Putin's rationalization.


----------



## Johnny b

This could have gone to the Gun thread, but I think the political implications are important along with the timing.

* Republican-controlled states have higher murder rates than Democratic ones: study *
https://news.yahoo.com/republican-c...tes-than-democratic-ones-study-212137750.html

The study:
https://www.thirdway.org/report/the-red-state-murder-problem

IMO, it would have been interesting to see how much influence the NRA had in those stats, since they became political, especially since a Russian spy ( a convicted Russian spy ) now a political official of an enemy nation, was involved in gun lobbying and political campaigns on their behalf.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maria_Butina

The question arises....how much of the gun rights argument was orchestrated by Russia to bring about social disorder and weaken our society from within?


----------



## 2twenty2

Trump's Truth Social app branded a disaster

https://www.bbc.com/news/technology-60922717


----------



## Johnny b

2twenty2 said:


> Trump's Truth Social app branded a disaster
> 
> https://www.bbc.com/news/technology-60922717





> And a Republican ally of Mr Trump's, who did not wish to be identified, said: "Nobody seems to know what's going on."


LOL!


----------



## 2twenty2

Johnny b said:


> And a Republican ally of Mr Trump's, who did not wish to be identified, said: "Nobody seems to know what's going on."


...


----------



## Wino

2twenty2 said:


> ...
> View attachment 295640


Not exactly a news flash - DJT business as usual.


----------



## Johnny b

SeanLaurence said:


> ................
> 
> One FB friend of my mom quoted Putin's ne-Nazification justification for the invasion of Ukraine today.


Outrageous rationalization.

And the reactions inhuman:



> *Putin's Minions Demand Grotesque 'Rewards' for Mass Killers in Ukraine*


https://www.thedailybeast.com/russi...s-grotesque-rewards-for-ukraine-war-criminals


----------



## Johnny b

More on The Donald's Truth scam:

* Trump-Tied Social Media SPAC Slides After Key Executives Quit *
https://finance.yahoo.com/news/trump-tied-social-media-spac-144813749.html

Problems?


> On Thursday, Digital World hit yet another snag, saying it was unable to file its form 10-K annual report with the SEC within the prescribed time period.


I wonder if they're even trying.


----------



## SeanLaurence

Johnny b said:


> There are too many people that should not be allowed to possess firearms. from crazy to criminal.


Do you perceive the gun problem to be worse now than when we discussed it last?

According to the NYT, the daily average Covid deaths per day in the US has dropped to 644. This statistic makes the gun deaths per day seem quaint.

This NSC data suggests gun related deaths ran at about 124 per day for 2020:
https://injuryfacts.nsc.org/home-and-community/safety-topics/guns/data-details/

This CNN article suggests 2021 was on track for a 9% increase over 2020.
https://www.cnn.com/2021/09/19/politics/gun-violence-spike-2021-explainer/index.html


----------



## Johnny b

SeanLaurence said:


> Do you perceive the gun problem to be worse now than when we discussed it last?
> 
> According to the NYT, the daily average Covid deaths per day in the US has dropped to 644. This statistic makes the gun deaths per day seem quaint.
> 
> This NSC data suggests gun related deaths ran at about 124 per day for 2020:
> https://injuryfacts.nsc.org/home-and-community/safety-topics/guns/data-details/
> 
> This CNN article suggests 2021 was on track for a 9% increase over 2020.
> https://www.cnn.com/2021/09/19/politics/gun-violence-spike-2021-explainer/index.html





> Do you perceive the gun problem to be worse now than when we discussed it last?


Worse.


----------



## SeanLaurence

Johnny b said:


> The problem is so bad right now, I truly have no answer on how to address it any more.
> There are too many people that should not be allowed to possess firearms. from crazy to criminal.
> Worse, there are militant militias demanding their constitutional rights ....that violate as it was originally written. The first four words are meaningless to them.
> * A well regulated Militia *
> (The term 'regulated' has historical significance)
> And as we now know, at least two of the largest and most violent Militias were there on January 6th, joined in the assault on our government.


So, reviewing the Wikipedia page on the 2nd Amendment, It appears that the original intent of "A well regulated Militia" was to allow gun ownership for the defense of the nation.
There are three ways in which that phrase is thought to be interpreted now, none of which I find satisfactory.
Since hunting, and defense against dangerous animals are legitimate uses of firearms, one would imagine that those types of uses should be allowed.
The issue with the language is that it is way too vague, which is why I would propose repealing it and creating some new legislation making the ownership of anything designed for the express purpose of killing / harming / incapacitating a person a *privilege*, rather than a right.

There have been a lot of infantrymen trained to fight in Afghanistan and Iraq. They have lots of training and experience. With a little bit of leadership, I can see how they could call themselves "well regulated"

The idea that the 2nd amendment is there to allow to overthrow a tyrannical US government is silly. Overthrowing the government is always going to be outside of the law. If you are successful, then you get to pardon your crimes, otherwise, you had better not miss.


----------



## Johnny b

SeanLaurence said:


> So, reviewing the Wikipedia page on the 2nd Amendment, It appears that the original intent of "A well regulated Militia" was to allow gun ownership for the defense of the nation.
> There are three ways in which that phrase is thought to be interpreted now, none of which I find satisfactory.
> Since hunting, and defense against dangerous animals are legitimate uses of firearms, one would imagine that those types of uses should be allowed.
> The issue with the language is that it is way too vague, which is why I would propose repealing it and creating some new legislation making the ownership of anything designed for the express purpose of killing / harming / incapacitating a person a *privilege*, rather than a right.
> 
> There have been a lot of infantrymen trained to fight in Afghanistan and Iraq. They have lots of training and experience. With a little bit of leadership, I can see how they could call themselves "well regulated"
> 
> The idea that the 2nd amendment is there to allow to overthrow a tyrannical US government is silly. Overthrowing the government is always going to be outside of the law. If you are successful, then you get to pardon your crimes, otherwise, you had better not miss.





> Since hunting, and defense against dangerous animals are legitimate uses of firearms, one would imagine that those types of uses should be allowed.
> The issue with the language is that it is way too vague, which is why I would propose repealing it and creating some new legislation making the ownership of anything designed for the express purpose of killing / harming / incapacitating a person a *privilege*, rather than a right.


Interesting, but doesn't address the problem of containing/reducing violence.
Further, there is already a system of licensed hunting in the US.
Even restrictions.



> There have been a lot of infantrymen trained to fight in Afghanistan and Iraq. They have lots of training and experience. With a little bit of leadership, I can see how they could call themselves "well regulated"


The concept of being 'well regulated' isn't what the individual thinks of himself.
Originally, it was considered loyalty and oath of allegiance to a legally elected government.

A lot of the Boogaloo do seem to have military backgrounds, even law enforcement.
They have leadership. 
Same with Oath Keepers.

Legally, how are you going to distinguish the groups?

We already have the National Guard.



> The idea that the 2nd amendment is there to allow to overthrow a tyrannical US government is silly.


To a sane person, of course.
In a spare moment, search out militia web sites to get a feel for what they stand for.
Many of them are about defending a nation while denigrating the concept of 'democracy' by using sophistry. That of our form of government is intentionally not a democracy, instead a republic.
Which is correct. Our form of government is a republic. A federal one whose representatives are chosen by a free and democratic society.
Through sophistry,essentially, they argue the right to confront a government elected by a free and democratic society.
Their argument, not mine.

Even addressing the above, it does little to address what has become a violent element in our society.
Attacks on minorities, child abuse, spousal abuse, random violence, the violent nature of politics seen in Trump rhetoric...on and on and on...our society needs a cure and redefining the 2nd isn't going to have much impact, imo.
Why would it, gun control laws often aren't being obeyed. How would changing a law improve anything under the circumstances?
A bonanza of 'feel good' for some politicians.

The bigger problem is a lack of morality and ethics.
Our humanity needs correction before any reasonable results will occur, Sean.
Constantly chanting no more guns only shifts the violence to different weapons, at the moment.

How is a split society that neither wants change nor practical solutions..at the same time.....able cure itself?
That's the problem I see.
To that.....I got nothing.

I was going to post more.....but too dooms-dayish


----------



## Wino

The world needs a huge enema.


----------



## Johnny b

Some good news:

* DirecTV dropped OAN today, rejecting GOP pleas to keep right-wing network *
https://arstechnica.com/tech-policy...jecting-gop-pleas-to-keep-right-wing-network/



> DirecTV announced it wouldn't renew its carriage deal with OAN after pressure from advocacy groups that pointed out OAN "is a major supporter of the Stop the Steal movement," spread "election fraud lies that claimed the 2020 election was stolen from Donald Trump," "stok[ed] violent calls for the attack on the US Capitol," and airs "wall-to-wall COVID-19 disinformation."


----------



## Johnny b

Connecting the dots.

It's a long read with many details, some already known, some not. Definitely a lot of details.

Events and players in the Jan 6th failed insurrection:

* Justice Dept. Investigation of Jan. 6 Confronts Sprawling Cast of Characters *
https://www.nytimes.com/2022/04/05/us/politics/trump-allies-january-6.html


----------



## Johnny b

SeanLaurence said:


> So, reviewing the Wikipedia page on the 2nd Amendment, It appears that the original intent of "A well regulated Militia" was to allow gun ownership for the defense of the nation.
> 
> [edited for brevity]
> 
> Overthrowing the government is always going to be outside of the law. If you are successful, then you get to pardon your crimes, otherwise, you had better not miss.


This is the most recent mass killing.

* Sacramento shooting suspect got out of prison despite DA's opposition *
https://www.latimes.com/california/...got-out-of-prison-early-despite-da-opposition

There is nothing in the second amendment that addresses it. It wasn't designed for that kind of application.
The Brady Bill, yes.

That killer shouldn't have had possession of a firearm and why was he even released early from prison?

I hope you can see the problem is much more complex that just continuing to write laws criminals and the mentally unstable continue to ignore.
It's a society in decline.
The concept of 'civilization' under attack.
And reasonable people seem to have lost much of the ability to defend themselves and their way of life. 
So....'the beat goes on'.

Grim.


----------



## Johnny b

Wow.

Not only did Putin own Trump, he owned the Russian government and and apparently everything held in it's name.

Perks of being a dictator.

* Why Tracking Putin's Wealth Is So Difficult *
https://www.nytimes.com/2022/04/06/world/putin-russia-assets-wealth-sanctions.html

I seem to remember Alex Jones claiming Russia was the 'New America'




( Bad acting and crocodile tears imo )


----------



## Johnny b

Trump supporter and pillow for brains, Mike's in trouble again......!

* Mike Lindell Gets Sued at Nightmare Rally With MAGA Election Clerk *
https://www.thedailybeast.com/mike-...re-rally-with-maga-election-clerk-tina-peters



> The MyPillow CEO also claimed to have donated up to $800,000 to Tina Peters-wildly over Colorado's gift limit of $65 for public officials.





> A linens salesman by trade, Lindell has become one of the biggest backers of election fraud hoaxes. The pro-Trump conspiracy theory has landed Lindell and his allies in legal trouble. One associate, Tina Peters-clerk for Mesa County Colorado-is facing ten criminal charges over allegations that she helped leak data from voting machines that were under her office's supervision.
> Separately, Peters is facing an ethics investigation over her opaque "legal defense fund." Speaking to reporters before a pro-Peters rally on Tuesday, Lindell claimed to have donated up to $800,000 to that fund-wildly over the state's gift limit of $65 for public officials.


I suspect he'll even try denying he spoke with those reporters  

Ding-a-ling.


----------



## Johnny b

More on the mentality of Trump and his hatred for Ukrainians:

* Trump was thrown into rage by subject of Ukraine, former aide says: 'They...tried to screw me' *
https://www.businessinsider.com/trump-thrown-into-rage-by-subject-of-ukraine-former-aide-2022-4



> Former President Donald Trump threw a fit and launched into a profanity-laced rant at a 2019 meeting when the topic of Ukraine came up, according to a former aide, falsely accusing the country of trying to defeat him in the 2016 US election.
> .............
> (edit:Charles Kupperman, deputy national security adviser under Trump )
> In his interview with the Times, Kupperman said it was clear this - and manufacturing dirt on the Biden family - was the extent of his interest in Ukraine.


It's about the depths of ignorance of an unhinged politician, as seen up close.



> "If one were to ask him to define 'balance of power,' he wouldn't know what that concept was," Kupperman said.


Who is Kupperman:
Briefly.....
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charles_Kupperman
Not a Democrat.
A Republican that the Trump machine tried to silence during the Trump-Ukrainian scandal.


----------



## Wino

JB you left out the pertinent comment:



> "If one were to ask him to define 'balance of power,' he wouldn't know what that concept was," Kupperman said. *"He'd have no idea about the history of Ukraine and why it's in the front pages today. He wouldn't know that Stalin starved that country. Those are the contextual points one has to take into account in the making of foreign policy. But he wasn't capable of it, because he had no understanding of history: how these countries and their leadership evolved, what makes these countries tick."*




To say that Trump is an ignorant bloviating twit is a yuge understatement. He knows as much about history as he does the bible - which is zilch. Trump should market an after shave called "Essence of Stupidity". Fairly confident the MAGA rabble would buy it even if it smelled like a rotting corpse.


----------



## Johnny b

Wino said:


> JB you left out the pertinent comment:
> 
> ....................


I know.
There's just so darn much, posting it all at once becomes forum flooding.
I hope other people reading these threads reads all of the content at the links.

That's often where I find the contradictions in Ed's and Jack's posts. What they don't copy and paste 

I wonder how many read all of Ed's recent link about Hunter?

Example:
https://forums.techguy.org/threads/the-biden-thread.1273494/post-9891252

Ed's link to NY Post:
https://nypost.com/2022/04/09/hunter-biden-frequently-covered-family-expenses-texts-reveal/


> "I hope you all can do what I did and pay for everything for this entire family for 30 years," Hunter Biden groused to daughter Naomi in January 2019. "It's really hard. But don't worry, unlike pop, I won't make you give me half your salary." Pop is Joe Biden.
> 
> The laptop - infamously abandoned at a Delaware repair shop in April 2019 - does not contain any direct evidence of such money transfers.....


Edit: underline by me.

As you can see, the article is a lot to do about nothing.
Everyone already knows Hunter was a drug addict with a lot of problems.
But Hunter never held or ran for a political office and I haven't read of him being employed by the US Government.

Typical winger newscasting.


----------



## Wino

Read DJT article about his weight. He said he weighed 208 lbs. I think he meant kilos cause there is no way he is even close to 208 lbs. on that saggy flabby frame. He just cannot NOT tell a lie.


----------



## Johnny b

That statistic only represented the mass above the shoulders.

It is quite remarkable he hasn't stroked out......or maybe he did. 
It would explain a lot.


----------



## Johnny b

This was bound to happen.
It started with Falwell.
And the Trump mentality simply drove the extremism of fundamentalism + rightwing politics to new heights.
This article notes why some Christians are abandoning their religious communities.....the obvious corruption derived from promised entitlements.

* Why one evangelical pastor left a radicalized, post-Jan. 6 America behind *
https://www.nbcnews.com/news/religi...left-radicalized-post-jan-6-america-rcna14869

Too much to copy and paste, this stands out:



> A 2020 study of religion in the U.S. found 14 percent of people identified as white evangelical, a sharp drop from 23 percent in 2006. As few as 8 percent of white millennials identify as evangelical, according to a 2018 study, compared to 26 percent of white people older than 65.
> ..............................
> 
> Church members began to float QAnon-style conspiracy theories or claim that events like the neo-Nazi rally in Charlottesville, Virginia, a 90-minute drive from Fredericksburg, were the fault of the left.


----------



## Johnny b

A long article on the Trump machine.

*Mar-a-Lago Machine: Trump as a Modern-Day Party Boss *
https://www.nytimes.com/2022/04/17/us/politics/trump-mar-a-lago.html

Too much detail to copy and paste.

Short version: 'How to become an autocrat'.


----------



## Johnny b

Birds of a feather 

* Donald Trump's Nebraska rally features candidate Charles Herbster, accused by 8 women of groping *
https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/politics/2022/04/19/trump-nebraska-rally-herbster/7367671001/



> Donald Trump travels to Nebraska next week for a campaign rally featuring a supportive gubernatorial candidate who has been accused of groping by eight women.
> .................
> The Trump political committee said nothing about the accusations against Herbster as it announced a rally on April 29 in Greenwood, Nebraska, which is about halfway between Omaha and Lincoln.
> 
> The announcement listed Herbster as "special guest speaker."


* GOP state senator, seven other women say Charles Herbster groped them; he denies allegationss *
https://nebraskaexaminer.com/2022/0...s-herbster-groped-them-he-denies-allegations/



> Three of the women interviewed by the Examiner said they no longer follow politics because of what happened. Two said they have sought counseling. Two others said they just want to forget about what happened. One said she now carries a gun to protect herself.


----------



## Johnny b

From the simplicity of fascist red hatted MAGA to the neo-fascist realm of....DarkMaga.
Yes, It's a real 'thing'. And it's a leap into even more fantastical alt right insanity.

* What Is Dark MAGA? Trump Supporters Attempt Rebrand for 2024 *
https://www.newsweek.com/dark-maga-donald-trump-supporters-attempt-rebrand-2024-1697855



> ..........Dark MAGA is a post-alt-right aesthetic that promotes an authoritarian version of Trump in dystopian, Terminator-like images. In some, the Trump Tower is painted entirely in black and the former president is seen piercing through the screen with blue laser eyes.


( Ed? are you reading this? )



> The aesthetics of the movement are easily recognizable: images edited in red and black or red and blue, featuring people with blue laser eyes often holding weapons or standing in front of neo-Nazi symbols.
> 
> ( edit: Comments from Trump supporters )
> 
> .................. Dark MAGA represents "Napoleon, being exiled, and then raising a f****** ( edit: astericks are original text, not mine ) army to attack Europe to attack the elites."
> 
> "#DarkMAGA is the aesthetic demand that Trump embrace a harder and more focused approach to the role only he can fill. He was too kindhearted, too forgiving. Dark MAGA demands he learn from his mistakes,"
> 
> "It's the realization that there is no political solution beyond vengeance,"


Too much to copy and paste more.

Interesting and disturbing at the same time.

Obviously a gathering of the worst elements of our society.


----------



## Johnny b

Speaking of 'worst elements' of our society that are Trump supporters,
I was just reading about Roseanne Bar and her tribulations in support of Trump and getting kicked out of Hollywood for it.

I can post a link to Yahoo News, but I can't quote most of her comments and I have to warn, her language is really foul.

* Roseanne Barr: I'm a Victim of 'Witch-Burning' Cancel Culture *
https://www.yahoo.com/entertainment/roseanne-barr-m-victim-witch-083219513.html

IMO, she's a bitter victim of her own doing.

Dark MAGA.


----------



## Johnny b

A little perverse humor 

* How Trump Spent Easter: 'He Is No Longer President, So He Doesn't Have to Go to Church' *
https://news.yahoo.com/trump-spent-easter-no-longer-175059208.html


----------



## Johnny b

A picture is worth a thousand words, or so it's said.
I remember this photo.

* An old clip of Volodymyr Zelenskyy side-eyeing Donald Trump's suggestion that he 'get together' with Putin and solve their 'problem' has resurfaced on Twitter *
https://www.businessinsider.com/old...lenskyy-talking-about-putin-resurfaces-2022-4












> In the clip, Trump leans toward Zelenskyy and loudly says: "I really hope that you and President Putin can get together and solve your problem."


Translation:
Putin's Puppet just condemned the Ukraine to the genocide we're now seeing.


----------



## Johnny b

The Trump mentality. Cruel and hateful.

See how a Michigan State Senator addresses the lies and innuendos of what can now be seen as 'Dark MAGA'.

There is a video associated with the article.
It's hard hitting and worth watching.

* Michigan state senator hits back at GOP colleague accusing her of 'grooming' kids *
https://news.yahoo.com/michigan-sta...-accusing-her-of-grooming-kids-135900555.html

If the video isn't playing, here is a link to McMorrow's Twitter page and the original video:

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1516453738403143681


----------



## Wino

This world would be a much better place without any religion or Trumpism.


----------



## Johnny b

Wino said:


> This world would be a much better place without any religion or Trumpism.


Trumpism as an absolute, I agree.

But 'religion'....it all depends, imo.
There are those that practice the teachings/lessons of Christ that look to bettering themselves and the lives of their fellow man. ( I have met some of them )

And there others that translate the Holy Bible for control of others while selfishly benefiting themselves.

And there are even those that manipulate the Bible in a manner that weaponizes it.

The second and third are traits we see in Trumpism and it's followers, and at the same time, not exclusive to Trumpism. Through out history, those two traits have left a trail of misery and suffering. A lot of death.


----------



## Wino

jb - I've met and have known a lot of self claimed christians - none met the words meaning or criteria. Most all speak from both sides of their mouth. Charlatan would be a better word.


----------



## Wino

The stench of a traitorous coward must be a peculiarly putrid odor !! 

https://www.thedailybeast.com/trump...ssed-on-election-lies?source=articles&via=rss



> "I don't think you're real," an *extremely sweaty Trump fumed *before telling Morgan he was "very dishonest." At the end of the short clip, Trump was seen walking off after shouting "turn the camera off."


----------



## Johnny b

Wino said:


> jb - I've met and have known a lot of self claimed christians - none met the words meaning or criteria. Most all speak from both sides of their mouth. Charlatan would be a better word.


I have, also, Wayne.
And terms like charlatan, hypocrite, liar seem appropriate tags.

An obvious example is the Russian Orthodox Bishop, Vladimir Gundyayev, who openly advocates for the invasion of Ukraine.

And as you can see, the term 'monster' also becomes relevant.

IMO, in most situations, religion is perverted by those people for advantage. From financial to political and combinations.

I also aware of atheists committing much the same through a different mind set. In the same way, not all atheists commit crimes against humanity because they're humanists.

Summed up, there is a viciousness in the nature of humanity. Some express it, some don't.


----------



## Wino

As an avowed atheist heathen I can say I live a more "christian" life than most christian's I know or have met, even tho I've lived a hedonistic life, which I expect is the reason christians I know suck !!


----------



## Johnny b

Yes, Ed....another Trump bashing event.  aren't they all 

Oh well....reality strikes again.

* Trump ordered to pay ex-aide Omarosa Manigault Newman $1.3M in legal fees *
https://www.yahoo.com/gma/trump-ordered-pay-ex-aide-232109835.html

But really....even without the unknown details Omarosa wrote in her book, most of us had realized The Donald was unhinged.


----------



## Johnny b

Trump...toilets...light bulbs.... and intelligence tests

* Trump Rambles About Toilets Not Flushing During Ohio Rally … Oh, and Also: Hijacking America's Election Systems *
https://www.rollingstone.com/politi...d-trump-rally-delaware-ohio-jd-vance-1342199/

A sign of the times.
Which is worse, Trump or the loons that cheer him on?


----------



## Wino

Tough enigmatic question re which is worse - the ignorance is stunning for both - nothing ambiguous about that fact. The man has no charisma, attention span of a cocker spaniel with less intellect, cannot tell a truth and stands for nothing of relevance outside of himself. A true vessel of national pestilence.


----------



## Johnny b

More and more keeps coming out, concerning texts that show GOP to Trump involvement in sedition and the attempted insurrection on Jan 6th.

Why haven't arrests been made?

* New Details Underscore House G.O.P. Role in Jan. 6 Planning *
https://www.nytimes.com/2022/04/26/us/politics/jan-6-texts-mark-meadows.html

Meanwhile in Florida, DeSantis has signed a bill that's looking like voter intimidation.

* Florida governor signs bill creating election police unit *
https://apnews.com/article/2022-mid...rime-florida-5fad57fac85e0944b6e8eeb423b195b7

Noted in the article is the low incidence of fraud that occurred in the 6 disputed states that Trump lost in the 2020 election:


> Voter fraud is rare, typically occurs in isolated instances and is generally detected. An Associated Press investigation  of the 2020 presidential election found fewer than 475 potential cases of voter fraud out of 25.5 million ballots cast in the six states where Trump and his allies disputed his loss to President Joe Biden.


----------



## Johnny b

Something to watch for this coming Monday:

* Trump election probe in Georgia to seat special grand jury *
https://apnews.com/3c393a8d50ffa7c9fa16664ad81ad40c



> When potential grand jurors show up at an Atlanta courthouse Monday, they'll find a television camera in the room and streets closed outside - nods to the intense public interest in the investigation into whether former President Donald Trump and others illegally tried to pressure Georgia officials to overturn Joe Biden's presidential election victory in the state.
> 
> Fulton County District Attorney Fani Willis has taken the unusual step of requesting a special grand jury for the investigation, and the selection of that panel begins Monday.


----------



## Johnny b

The rise of Tucker Carlson and trumpism with out the 'Donald'.

*How Tucker Carlson Reshaped Fox News - and Became Trump's Heir *
https://www.nytimes.com/2022/04/30/us/tucker-carlson-fox-news.html

A long article.
Consider skipping to the header:
* Trumpism Without Trump *

With the wealthiest man on Earth ( Musk ) re-engineering a propaganda machine, it will be interesting to see how it will interface with the current and most powerful propaganda machine, Fox News.


----------



## Johnny b

LOL....The Walking ( Brain ) Dead!

* Trump mocked after accidentally switching his endorsement for Ohio candidate during rally speech *
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/...ally-today-jd-mandel-vance-ohio-b2069645.html



> At a "Save America" rally in Ohio on Sunday, Mr Trump said: "You know, we've endorsed Dr. Oz. We've endorsed-J.P., right? JD Mandel, and he's doing great. They're all doing good."


https://news.yahoo.com/george-conway-mocks-trump-throwing-054530240.html
George Conway:


> His mind is shot. Can't imagine what Stormy did to him. Must have been really horrible. Sad!


!


----------



## Wino

Said it before and say again - if you insistently have to tell people how smart you are, you aren't !
Trump is a scumbag with no social redeeming value.


----------



## Johnny b

For those Republicans that don't approve or support the totalitarian fascism of Trumpism, this threat goes out from it's source:

* Trump says Republicans should 'probably' be afraid of him if their views are not in line with his, saying his 'unparalleled' endorsements are vital for GOP wins *
https://www.businessinsider.com/tru...ed-endorsements-are-vital-for-gop-wins-2022-5

And this quote is indicative of how morally and ethically corrupt our society has become:



> "I understand where the base is. I love the base and the base loves me,"


----------



## Johnny b

Crazy is as crazy does, and it's obvious it appeals to a certain mentality.

?Trump for 2024?










* Trump Kept Asking if China Was Shooting Us With a 'Hurricane Gun' *
https://news.yahoo.com/trump-kept-asking-china-shooting-195723086.html



> Near the beginning of Donald Trump's time in office, the then-president had a pressing question for his national-security aides and administration officials: Does China have the secret technology - a weapon, even - to create large, man-made hurricanes and then launch them at the United States? And if so, would this constitute an act of war by a foreign power, and could the U.S. retaliate militarily?




And to think some people thought Trump was crazy asking a voodoo priestess for her professional opinion on how to cure Covid.


----------



## SeanLaurence

Johnny b said:


> Crazy is as crazy does, and it's obvious it appeals to a certain mentality.
> 
> ?Trump for 2024?
> 
> And to think some people thought Trump was crazy asking a voodoo priestess for her professional opinion on how to cure Covid.


I thought he was crazy back in 2016 when it was apparent that he had associations with Alex Jones.


----------



## Johnny b

The revenge of a fascist malevolent opportunist....................

*Trump sees 'vengeance' on the political horizon *
https://news.yahoo.com/trump-sees-vengeance-on-the-political-horizon-090029575.html

Nothing new that hasn't already been discussed.
Just condensed showing the depravity of the man and his followers.

Last paragraph sums it up:


> "That Trump, of all people, should consider himself an arbiter of ideological purity - a man whose political allegiances oscillated randomly for decades - is comical," Barr wrote. "In reality, he has no concern with ideology or political principle. His motive is revenge, and it is entirely personal."


( Barr has a point, but imo, Barr isn't to be trusted either. Just another failed fascist power seeker. )

I suspect under a second term of Trumpism, the concept of free speech won't apply to those that criticize Trump. Not in the press, not by the citizen publicly and possibly not privately in certain circles. 
'Free speech' could become classified as an enemy of the state under certain circumstances, all depending on Trump's moment of madness. 
Revenge.....


----------



## Wino

The mental sickness of this man and his rabble and spore is abysmal - a political pestilence worse than any known pandemic. This nation is lost whether or not he or his ilk ever return to power.


----------



## Johnny b

Wino said:


> ...............................This nation is lost whether or not he or his ilk ever return to power.


Agreed.
The citizenry of the US is no longer a united front, no longer a collection of states supporting a central government. Fractured.
The old mentality of state's rights dating back to the early 1800's is with us again.
A confederacy with the legal ability to rationalize the unthinkable in a free society.

The corruption of Trump. morally and ethically, simply appeals to too many citizens that blame their station in life as someone else's doing with out realizing it's the corruption their 'hero' embraces along with their own, that put them where they are. Losers.
It's someone else's fault and Trump and the like minded, point out targets to hate.
Nothing gets fixed, only the imagery of short term solutions.

The corruption under Trump was rampant.
While an enormous amount of it has already been discussed in this thread, I suspect it's only been a minor part of his criminal activity.

This popped up just before reading your post:

* House committee refers former Trump Interior Secretary David Bernhardt for criminal prosecution *
https://news.yahoo.com/house-commit...hardt-for-criminal-prosecution-192909087.html

Trump and his minions had 4 years of conduct like the above.
That's 4 years of criminal behavior to uncover.

Trumpism steals from the middle class that voted for him and many love him for it, as weird as it sounds. Ignorance must actually be bliss.



> This nation is lost...........


Corruption.....too many ignorantly embrace it as a life style.


----------



## Johnny b

There was a time when the auto industry was considered a significant measure of our economy.
And there have been a lot of Trump supporters along with Trump, claiming what a great success Trump had been for the economy while pointing to unemployment statistics and a stock market that kept rising.....well, until covid struck.

I don't think this has been pointed out.
There was no increase in productivity in the US auto industry during those Trump years pre-Covid.
The stats do show it, sales declined after Trump took office.

Obviously, with tax cuts and corporations obligated to pay out profits to share holders, distributions increased driving share prices up.
But as sales went stagnant, there was no need to invest in greater productivity.

Corporations sold more cars annually the last two years of Obama than the first two year under Trump ( and that was before the Covid influence )

Funny......figures never lie, but liars often figure.

https://www.goodcarbadcar.net/usa-auto-industry-total-sales-figures/


----------



## Johnny b

Trump makes headlines 

* U.S. prosecutors open grand jury probe into Trump's handling of classified records -NYT *
https://news.yahoo.com/prosecutors-launch-grand-jury-probe-170216226.html

Just ask Putin......


----------



## Wino

Inflation began when Trump instigated his tariffs on China and other nations. I've oft wondered why Biden didn't end them the day he took office. It has escalated much since then.


----------



## Johnny b

Wino said:


> Inflation began when Trump instigated his tariffs on China and other nations. I've oft wondered why Biden didn't end them the day he took office. It has escalated much since then.


It appears Biden did reduce tariffs on our allies, but not China.
Trump did come to an agreement with China, but China didn't deliver on their promises.

I suspect the supply and demand dynamic along with labor shortages are the main reasons for the bump in inflation we're seeing. Not tariffs so much.
Covid and the early politics addressing the pandemic have created the supply line bottlenecks that are devastating everything from manufacturing to general commerce and the retail sector.
No politician, rightwing, leftwing, centrist or independent is going to 'fix this' overnight in time for any election, or any time soon.

Back to China and tariffs.
Keep the tariffs and Biden takes criticism from the right for not addressing inflation.
End tariffs with China and the right simply ties Hunter to supposed favoritism.
Politically, Biden can't win 'here'.

But consider...there is currently little competition in the imported Chinese product lines.
Mostly shortages. 
Before Covid, tariffs did not negatively influence Chinese production.
Consumers paid the 'tax' with little complaint.
But after 2+ years of a world pandemic, demand is outstripping supply.
That is the influence to correct to bring back economic stability.
Improve productivity. No easy solution.
Ending Chinese tariffs, imo, would only be a 'short term fix' that reduces inflation for a brief time.

I'm not against ending it, it just won't have a meaningful long term effect.

Socialism has no solution.
Trump's National Socialism has no sane solution ( lol )

And Biden's on the hot seat.

It's been said 'all good things must come to an end'.
January 6th was that benchmark.


----------



## Johnny b

Mass murders are becoming common in the news.

This is a result of Trumpism.
The Great Replacement Theory.

* The Buffalo supermarket shooting suspect posted an apparent manifesto repeatedly citing 'Great Replacement' theory  *
https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-new...t-posted-apparent-manifesto-repeate-rcna28889



> A manifesto apparently written by the suspect in a mass shooting at a Buffalo supermarket that killed 10 laid out specific plans to attack Black people and repeatedly cited the "Great Replacement" Theory, the false idea that a cabal is attempting to replace white Americans with non-white people through immigration, interracial marriage and eventually violence.


Using the search term 'Great Replacement Theory' brings up a lot of all ready suspected racists. From Fox News to Republican politicians.

Carlson promoting the concept.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tucker_Carlson#Immigration_and_race

Scott Perry
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scott_Perry_(politician)#Tenure

Marjorie Taylor Greene
https://www.timesofisrael.com/gop-candidate-shared-anti-semitic-great-replacement-video-watchdog/

And many more.

https://www.axios.com/2021/09/29/white-replacement-theory-gains-ground-among-gop

If you're short on time and can't read it all, be sure to read this article:

* Nearly half of Republicans agree with 'great replacement theory' *
https://www.washingtonpost.com/poli...ublicans-agree-with-great-replacement-theory/



> About 3 in 10 Americans overall agreed with the idea that intentional replacement was occurring or that native-born Americans were losing influence. About 1 in 5 agreed that the election system discriminated against Whites. In each case, though, Republicans were more likely than Democrats to express agreement or concern.
> 
> But Carlson recognizes what Trump long understood: Stoking immigration concerns is a good way to build your fan base - whatever the result and whatever one's own background.


----------



## Wino

I've come to the conclusion MAGA righties are so insecure and paranoid I'm surprised they don't all commit hari kari - but it seems their preferred goal is to do it to others that they believe don't measure up to their sub-standards of stupidity. DJT isn't the cause, but he is the catalyst.


----------



## Johnny b

Trumpism brings out the worst of humanity as a supportive solidarity.


----------



## Johnny b

Solidarity?
Maybe commitments to Trumpism, however......
Looks like there is a start to a power grab going on within Trump's MAGA-verse.

* Drama is brewing in the MAGAverse as pro-Trump lawyer Lin Wood goes after MyPillow CEO Mike Lindell and QAnon John *
https://www.businessinsider.com/magaverse-civil-war-brews-lin-wood-mike-lindell-qanon-john-2022-6



> In a Telegram post, Wood suggested that the MAGA movement was being compromised by "deep state operatives" disguised as "patriots" who were actually "communist infiltrators."
> ...........
> He then shared a lengthy message from one of his followers, which posited that Lindell could be associated with Antifa.
> The post shared by Wood also claimed, without substantiation, that Lindell once offered a 66.6% discount on his pillows, implying that the pillow salesman had links to Satanism.
> ............


Don't miss the interesting links in the above article.

Mind rot?


----------



## Wino

Mind rot or 'Abbey Normal' from gitgo.


----------



## Tabvla

Trump is not the problem. The problem existed long before Trump. Trump was simply the facilitator that brought the problem out of the darkness.

And that is what is really worrying. Long after Trump is assigned to the history books, the problem will still be there.

Once the genie is our of the bottle there is no way of putting it back.

T.


----------



## Johnny b

Trump is a populist. And a problem.
He reflects the emotions of those that feel entitled but at the same time, feel cheated in life.
He got his power from that feedback.
That feedback is a rot within our society, promoting like minded politicians.
Democrats do it, too. Just no where near the scale and veracity of the current Trump crowd.

Trump organized the entitled, embraced the cults, positioned himself as an emissary of God.
And made promises to lock in the weak of mind......and of course, opportunists also.

Think of Trump as a 'Ringmaster'. In a circus of the insane.


----------



## Johnny b

Fascism is becoming the new normal.

* Poll: Biden disapproval hits new high as more Americans say they would vote for Trump *
https://news.yahoo.com/poll-biden-d...-say-they-would-vote-for-trump-090021657.html


----------



## Wino

"Nobody ever went broke underestimating the intelligence of the American public." H. L. Mencken


----------



## Johnny b

Overthrowing the United States government is an expensive endeavor and it appears the Trump movement still continues investing in it's demise.

* Trump's political operation, Republican groups paid millions to Jan. 6 organizers: watchdog *
https://www.usatoday.com/story/aeri...lions-january-6-organizers-report/7658737001/



> Trump and his affiliates haven't turned off the funding spigot since the riot, according to OpenSecrets, which found millions of dollars in contributions to the rally organizers during the 2022 cycle.


Obviously, much/most of those donations come from citizens that approve of and support fascism and authoritarian rule.
The weak minded decry socialist control of their lives while embracing fascist domination.
They seem to think the promises are real.
It won't end well for them.
All politicians lie. Some more than others


----------



## Tabvla

Anyone (and I mean both within the US and outside the US) who is not deeply concerned about the madness that is currently encompassing US politics is living in never-never-land. And if you don't think that we are being encompassed by madness then just read the resolution that was passed on the last day of the Republican Convention in Texas.

T.


----------



## Wino

Trumpian wingers, particularly Texas, are terminally stupid. Texas would become 3rd world overnight should it ever secede. And believe me, there are parts of Texas that are already there. Our guv, Lt. guv and AG are idiots on the level of Florida leaders.


----------



## Johnny b

This is how men like Hitler and Putin came into power:

* GOP Candidate Fantasizes About Murdering Political Opponents in New Ad *
https://news.yahoo.com/gop-senate-candidate-fantasizes-murdering-152650982.html



> It features Greitens and an armed military team breaking into a house to execute Republicans who don't sufficiently support former President Trump. "Join the MAGA crew," Greitens says. "Get a RINO-hunting permit. There's no bagging limit, no tagging limit, and it doesn't expire until we save our country."


----------



## Tabvla

Tabvla said:


> Anyone (and I mean both within the US and outside the US) who is not deeply concerned about the madness that is currently encompassing US politics is living in never-never-land. And if you don't think that we are being encompassed by madness then just read the resolution that was passed on the last day of the Republican Convention in Texas.
> 
> T.


And just in case you missed it, this is the story that I was referring to.....

Texas Republicans pass resolution denying Biden won election

T.


----------



## Johnny b

Tabvla said:


> And just in case you missed it, this is the story that I was referring to.....
> 
> Texas Republicans pass resolution denying Biden won election
> 
> T.


The Texas Republican platform essentially calls for a civil war.
From your link:


> The platform notes that "Texas retains the right to secede from the United States." One resolution called for a referendum "in the 2023 general election for the people of Texas to determine whether or not the State of Texas should reassert its status as an independent nation," the platform reads


This is sedition.
An argument for insurrection.


----------



## Wino

Not recognizing Biden as legit prez is standard SOP for idiots in Texas, so nothing new here. As for seceding, that's a lost cause also no matter what any referendum proposes. Nothing more than exercises in mental masturbation by RWN's. Texas is overburdened with twits, idiots, MAGA(T)'s, bigots, white supremacist and white trash. In short, a cesspool of ignorance.

https://www.wfaa.com/article/news/p...f independence has,that a state cannot secede.


----------



## Johnny b

Hi Wayne.

Legally secede? No.
If it was legal, there wouldn't be an issue of sedition.

We've got bone heads in Ohio, too.
Different issues.

If there is a referendum, it will be interesting to see which way the Texas populace votes.
What's your take on that?


----------



## Wino

jb - I would like to believe vote would be no, but currently I'm not sure since many Texan's apparently don't understand what United States means and no idea of the consequences of secession. I'd have to relocate since Medicare would no longer apply in a foreign nation. Texas ignorance burns.


----------



## Johnny b

* 'There Is Nowhere I Feel Safe': Election Officials Describe Threats Fueled by Trump *
https://www.nytimes.com/2022/06/21/us/politics/jan-6-trump-threats.html

Our legal system moves too slowly in addressing Trump and his thugs.


----------



## Johnny b

Freudian slip?
The politics of abortion and racism:

* Rep. Miller thanks Trump for 'victory for white life,' campaign says she misread remarks *
https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/po...te-life-campaign-says-misread-remar-rcna35359

The crowd cheered anyway:



> "I want to thank you for the historic victory for white life in the Supreme Court yesterday," Miller said, then raised her arms in an animated clap amid cheers from the crowd, which numbered in the thousands on a sweltering day in West Central Illinois.


A real true American 
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mary_Miller_(politician)


> Miller sided with President Donald Trump's false claims that the 2020 presidential election was compromised by voter fraud, calling it "tainted"


Wikipedia also points out her attraction to Hitler.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mary_Miller_(politician)#Comment_about_Hitler
Also note, she eventually back peddled there also.

Looking like a real Trump camp follower.


----------



## Johnny b

hmmmm.......
After killing off hundreds of thousands of citizens through his policies on the Covid pandemic, he paints himself as a right to lifer that takes credit for reversing Roe-Wade.

* Trump takes credit for Roe v Wade ruling, calls it 'biggest WIN for LIFE in a generation' *
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/...reaction-roe-wade-supreme-court-b2108864.html

A contradiction.
Especially since there was a time when he was pro choice.

https://www.nbcnews.com/meet-the-press/video/trump-in-1999-i-am-very-pro-choice-480297539914
Be sure to play the 1999 video.
He hated abortion but supported pro choice....he claims he'd never ban abortion, even the ugliest/monstrous, partial birth abortion.

19 years later, he kills off hundreds of thousands of our citizens.
22 years later he presents himself as a humanitarian.


----------



## Wino

He's what he's always been - a lying grifter.


----------



## Johnny b

Wino said:


> He's what he's always been - a lying grifter.


Indeed.

And yet, as time goes by, as a pandemic still exists, and a war looms with Putin, the Russian that promoted and helped fund Trump's campaigns........far right extremist Trumpism becomes more popular.

https://news.yahoo.com/more-1-million-voters-switch-040817454.html

Extremism, in general, has become acceptable. Apparently a way of life.


----------



## Wino

White man's inferiority complex, real or fantasized or a new Manifest Destiny syndrome.


----------



## Johnny b

Not 'Trump', but about a Supreme Court Justice whose wife seems connected to Trump's false voter fraud claims and the attempted Jan 6 insurrection:

* Clarence Thomas says American citizens are seemingly 'more interested in their iPhones' than 'their Constitution': book *
https://www.businessinsider.com/cla...itution-liberties-due-process-abortion-2022-6

Says the guy that's been said to proclaim 43 years of revenge as a sitting Supreme Court Justice.

* Supreme Court Justice Clarence Thomas told his law clerks in the '90s that he wanted to serve for 43 years to make liberals' lives 'miserable'*
https://www.businessinsider.com/cla...ks-he-wants-to-make-liberals-miserable-2022-6



> "The liberals made my life miserable for 43 years," a former clerk remembered Thomas - who was 43 years old when confirmed - saying, according to The New York Times. "And I'm going to make their lives miserable for 43 years."


Pretty sure that's not in his job description


----------



## Johnny b

Trump people:

* Boebert says she is 'tired' of separation between church and state: 'The church is supposed to direct the government' *
https://thehill.com/homenews/house/...-church-is-supposed-to-direct-the-government/



> In a Sunday speech at the Cornerstone Christian Center in Basalt, Colo., ahead of her primary election on Tuesday, Boebert argued that "the government is not supposed to direct the church," falsely claiming that dividing religion from the system of government was not what the Founding Fathers intended.


So whose church rules?
And if a church did rule above all others, there wouldn't be freedom of religion. And likely a loss of other freedoms.
This is what concerned the founders.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Separation_of_church_and_state_in_the_United_States
This stands out and underscores the founders intentions:


> In keeping with the lack of an established state religion in the United States, unlike in many European nations at the time, Article Six of the United States Constitution specifies that "no religious Test shall ever be required as a Qualification to any Office or public Trust under the United States."


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/No_Religious_Test_Clause

I wonder which way the Supreme Court is going on this?


----------



## Johnny b

Just a couple of Trump supporters..............

* Oath Keeper brought explosives to D.C. ahead of Jan. 6 attack, prosecutor says *
https://www.reuters.com/world/us/oa...head-jan-6-attack-prosecutor-says-2022-07-09/



> In a court filing, federal prosecutors alleged that Jeremy Brown, an Oath Keepers member from Florida, drove explosives to a Virginia hotel in his recreational vehicle on Jan. 6. A second member of the group, Thomas Caldwell, was later found in possession of a "death list" that included the name of a Georgia election official, according to the document.


----------



## Tabvla

If the next incumbent of the White House is DeSantis, is that going to be Trump version 2....?

T.


----------



## Johnny b

Tabvla said:


> If the next incumbent of the White House is DeSantis, is that going to be Trump version 2....?
> 
> T.


Trump 2 on steroids.


----------



## Tabvla

Let us hope that we won't be starting "The DeSantis Thread" in 2024. I don't think that my sanity could endure another 4 years (perhaps 8), (perhaps forever), of Trump, least of all Trump on steroids.

Are there no sane, regular, intelligent, reasonably young but experienced, people left in America? 

T.


----------



## Johnny b

Tabvla said:


> ...................
> 
> Are there no sane, regular, intelligent, reasonably young but experienced, people left in America?
> 
> T.


LOL! good one


----------



## Johnny b

* Trump Calls Elon Musk a "Bulls- Artist,' Internet Dies Laughing *
https://news.yahoo.com/trump-calls-elon-musk-bulls-170017183.html

* BILLIONAIRE BOYS FEUD: Elon Musk Slaps Back At Trump's Latest Insults *
https://news.yahoo.com/billionaire-boys-feud-elon-musk-084424009.html

And to think, both want to be involved in social media sites.
Looks like they'll fit in just fine.


----------



## Wino

Two peas from the same pod - both should join Grifters Anonymous !!


----------



## Johnny b

Not a surprise and certainly not shocking considering the lawlessness of the Trump's past.
It now looks like Trump has gotten caught witness tampering.

* Rep. Liz Cheney ends hearing with bombshell: Donald Trump called a witness in the House January 6 investigation *
https://www.businessinsider.com/tru...y-6-committee-cheney-witness-tampering-2022-7

Translation: The Art of the Deal.


----------



## Wino

It's a shame they did not take and record his call. JDT was never known to keep his mouth shut thus removing no doubt he is the idiot sane people know him to be.


----------



## Johnny b

Many of those Trump supporters that rallied around chanting USA, USA and waving banners like patriots are now of a mind to destroy it.

* Poll: Many red-state Trump voters say they'd be 'better off' if their state seceded from U.S. *
https://news.yahoo.com/poll-many-re...if-their-state-seceded-from-us-160454042.html

A bunch of dangerous losers led by a loser.


----------



## ekim68

Trump search warrant: FBI took top secret files from Mar-a-Lago



> Agents removed 11 sets of documents, including some marked "TS/SCI", a designation for material that could cause "exceptionally grave" damage to US national security.


----------



## Wino

Just when you believe this loser has reached his nadir of criminality, he moves the goal post of depravity.


----------



## MisterEd51

> A kangaroo visiting from Australia beholds the kangaroo court attempting to impeach President Trump for the second time and, taking the current kangaroo judge’s momentary absence as an opportunity, dresses up as judge and addresses the court.


‘An Australian Kangaroo Visits the Second Impeachment Trial of President Trump’ by Jan Darling


----------



## Wino

I hear the orange putz is a bit deranged over the Nov. 8 elections not being the red wave he predicted. It has to really hurt this narcissistic twit being such a yuge loser !!🤬


----------



## SeanLaurence

Wino said:


> I hear the orange putz is a bit deranged over the Nov. 8 elections not being the red wave he predicted. It has to really hurt this narcissistic twit being such a yuge loser !!🤬


I understand that the candidates that he had endorsed did much worse than those that didn't need his help.


----------



## Wino

TEE HEE! Trump Corp. guilty on all counts of tax evasion in NY. I imagine the orange pustule's nickers are a bit knotted tonight. 2023 will be a very long year for the traitorous and seditious Trumpster. Hope they hound him to the grave.


----------



## Wino

Still giggling -  Schadenfreude rules !!


----------



## SeanLaurence

Wino said:


> Still giggling -  Schadenfreude rules !!


And yesterday The jury came back in New York finding the Trump Org guilty on all counts of criminal tax fraud.


----------



## Wino

Can't stop chortling on daily bases as noose tightens on the traitor.


----------



## Couriant

Note, that is for the Trump Org. itself, and not Trump himself, though apparently they supposedly had enough for him to show he approved the shady deals. This will hurt the org and hopefully dissolve them as no reputable lender will touch them now, and maybe even those not so legitimate lenders will have second thoughts.


----------



## Wino

I expect DA will charge Trump himself and he will be convicted.


----------



## frozen igloo

Wino said:


> Can't stop chortling on daily bases as noose tightens on the traitor.


You call someone that want's to make america great again a traitor? What does that make you??? LMAO


----------



## frozen igloo

Wino said:


> I expect DA will charge Trump himself and he will be convicted.


Not gonna happen. But if it does, it's just more evidence for the brutal corruption that surrounds the liberal life like a hurricane.


----------



## MisterEd51

All the Democrats that supported the Russia collusion lie and Trump's impeachment are the real traitors. The same goes for the people here that supported it.


----------



## frozen igloo

MisterEd51 said:


> All the Democrats that supported the Russia collusion lie and Trump's impeachment are the real traitors. The same goes for the people here that supported it.


And Russia is not the real threat, they are!


----------



## valis

frozen igloo said:


> You call someone that want's to make america great again a traitor? What does that make you??? LMAO


A smart person who isnt a member of the Oprah Book of the Month club.

Trump is a dingaling and has split America. Set racd relations back 60 years. I aint a Biden fan but voted for him just to get the Carrot replaced.


----------



## MisterEd51

valis said:


> A smart person who isnt a member of the Oprah Book of the Month club.
> 
> Trump is a dingaling and has split America. Set racd relations back 60 years. I aint a Biden fan but voted for him just to get the Carrot replaced.


Oh so you were one of the dopes that voted for a senile old fool just because you were not smart enough to ignore all the smears and lies by the Democrats and MSM!!! You have a lot to apologize for. All the misery we have had the last two years are all on the shoulders of people like you.


----------



## frozen igloo

Wino said:


> 2023 will be a very long year for the traitorous and seditious Trumpster.


The liberal left governance is the real traitorship here. Bet they would shut right up if they knew what we used to do to traitors back in the early years of our democracy. 
Right, a patriot who wants to "Make America Great Again" is seditious 
Remember, it's the left wing, NOT the right wing that is advocating for anarchy.


----------



## Wino

Invest in popcorn and Depends - you wingers are gonna need a lot of the latter and sane people a lot of the former. 2023 promises to be an entertaining year.


----------



## frozen igloo

Wino said:


> Invest in popcorn and Depends - you wingers are gonna need a lot of the latter and sane people a lot of the former. 2023 promises to be an entertaining year.


Another big death year for the liberal left government/shadow government/nwo. 2023 should be more of the same, they are loving it!

Edit hopefully the administrators won't delete this post because I didn't cite my sources!


----------



## MisterEd51

Wino said:


> Invest in popcorn and Depends - you wingers are gonna need a lot of the latter and sane people a lot of the former. 2023 promises to be an entertaining year.


Dumocrats should go back to kindergarten where fairy tales are encouraged. Or, just watch movies like Dumb and Dumber where you get to see like minded people in action.


----------



## valis

MisterEd51 said:


> Oh so you were one of the dopes that voted for a senile old fool just because you were not smart enough to ignore all the smears and lies by the Democrats and MSM!!! You have a lot to apologize for. All the misery we have had the last two years are all on the shoulders of people like you.


Nope. I was one of the idiots who realised a talking dog would be an improvement over Trump.

Heck, doesnt even have to talking. Toss a toaster in there, it certainly couldnt do worse than that dingdong.


----------



## Wino

I suspect Trump lovers favorite movie is "Idiocracy" since it is a neo-precursor to a second orange pustule term. Conversations with trumpets is about as futile as bricking a camel to drink water.
Happy New Year !!!


----------



## Wino

valis said:


> Nope. I was one of the idiots who realised a talking dog would be an improvement over Trump.
> 
> Heck, doesnt even have to talking. Toss a toaster in there, it certainly couldnt do worse than that dingdong.


Trumpers are about as brilliant as Putin sycophants that continue to get rooms with a view above the second floor !!


----------



## valis

I am not debasing them, mind you; I am just stating a fact. Hitler did the same thing (appealing to the lowest common denominator) and was pretty successful at it. People want a figurehead, they do not want to think for themselves.

It has been that way since time immemoriam, and I dont see it changing any time soon.


----------



## MisterEd51

That is why I don't post much in this thread anymore. Too many dolts here.


----------



## trekguy

MisterEd51 said:


> Oh so you were one of the dopes that voted for a senile old fool just because you were not smart enough to ignore all the smears and lies by the Democrats and MSM!!! You have a lot to apologize for. All the misery we have had the last two years are all on the shoulders of people like you.


Curious as to some of the "smears and lies" that you are referring to? Also, what exactly is the "misery" that you have endured? Be specific please.


----------



## valis

MisterEd51 said:


> That is why I don't post much in this thread anymore. Too many dolts here.


Ditto here. We can agree on something!


----------



## valis

trekguy said:


> Curious as to some of the "smears and lies" that you are referring to? Also, what exactly is the "misery" that you have endured? Be specific please.


Holy crap. Been a while hondo!


----------



## MisterEd51

trekguy said:


> Curious as to some of the "smears and lies" that you are referring to? Also, what exactly is the "misery" that you have endured? Be specific please.


Good grief...if you have to ask you are clueless.


----------



## valis

And if you cant answer you are, and I quote, 'a dolt'. I believe the phrase is put up or shut up. It means, in a debate, to prove your point or hush, as I am sure you know. There is actually a logical fallacy named after it, cannot recall it at this time.


----------



## MisterEd51

valis said:


> And if you cant answer you are, and I quote, 'a dolt'. I believe the phrase is put up or shut up. It means, in a debate, to prove your point or hush, as I am sure you know. There is actually a logical fallacy named after it, cannot recall it at this time.


I don't have answer any of your questions...you can go on being a dolt.


----------



## valis

Well, that certainly proves my point. Choice was put up or shut up and you DEFINITELY made your choice clear.

And thank you for that.


----------



## Wino

Difficult to answer/respond to questions when one lives in an alternate reality of RWNJ sound bites, delusions and fantasy. The Onion has better data than these guys.


----------



## Wino

valis said:


> Well, that certainly proves my point. Choice was put up or shut up and you DEFINITELY made your choice clear.
> 
> And thank you for that.


You should know by now that discussions with people that use Trump as their moral compass is just a waste of electrons. Anyone professing they aren't racist, bigoted or fascist that support Trump is a liar. Anyone professing to be a christian that supports Trump is delusional. Fascism is a right wing attribute; socialism is a left wing attribute. Trumpism is the worst of all isms IMHO.


----------



## MisterEd51

valis said:


> Well, that certainly proves my point. Choice was put up or shut up and you DEFINITELY made your choice clear.





Wino said:


> You should know by now that discussions with people that use Trump as their moral compass is just a waste of electrons. Anyone professing they aren't racist, bigoted or fascist that support Trump is a liar. Anyone professing to be a christian that supports Trump is delusional. Fascism is a right wing attribute; socialism is a left wing attribute. Trumpism is the worst of all isms IMHO.


The difference between the both of you and me is that you are both dolts and have become brainwashed by the constant lying and smearing by the Democrats. I am too smart to fall for that. You are wasting your time spouting your nonsense.

Either become enlightened and learn the truth or continue to be a dolts. The choice is yours.


----------



## trekguy

valis said:


> Holy crap. Been a while hondo!


Yep, been kinda busy. Looks different around here.


----------



## trekguy

MisterEd51 said:


> Good grief...if you have to ask you are clueless.


I just figured with that amount of exclamation marks, you might have something right off the top of your head. But, nope. You can take some more time, if you need it.


----------



## MisterEd51

valis said:


> Well, that certainly proves my point. Choice was put up or shut up and you DEFINITELY made your choice clear.
> 
> And thank you for that.





trekguy said:


> I just figured with that amount of exclamation marks, you might have something right off the top of your head. But, nope. You can take some more time, if you need it.


I don't have time to answer questions from dolts.


----------



## Wino

trekguy said:


> Yep, been kinda busy. Looks different around here.


Smells different too, what with all the stable geniuses of recent. Kinda like mental horse .


----------



## trekguy

MisterEd51 said:


> I don't have time to answer questions from dolts.


Hmm, it looks like you have time, just no answers.


----------



## MisterEd51

trekguy said:


> Hmm, it looks like you have time, just no answers.


Sure I have plenty of time..but not for dolts like you.


----------



## Wino

Trump supporters are prime candidates for the likes of a Jim Jones, Koresh, Manson, McVeigh - robotic cult followers all.


----------



## trekguy

MisterEd51 said:


> Sure I have plenty of time..but not for dolts like you.


Ok, so you do have time. And, really, it shouldn't be that difficult of a question to answer, if you feel so strongly about the subject.


----------



## MisterEd51

trekguy said:


> Ok, so you do have time. And, really, it shouldn't be that difficult of a question to answer, if you feel so strongly about the subject.


The only thing I feel strongly about is that you and your other Dumocrats are dolts.


----------



## SeanLaurence

I am noticing a distinct lack of substance in this thread. Trump is no longer president. He is being investigated by a number of agencies for a number of crimes: 
The boxes of documents he took to Mar-A-Lago case is the easiest to prosecute. The evidence was found in his possession. 
The interference in the Georgia election is a state crime that he can do time for. If he is prosecuted for that, then a future president can't pardon him.
The most serious charges are for inciting an insurrection. We will see if Jack can Smith secure a conviction on that one sometime in 2023.


----------



## Wino

Hoping 2023 is the second worst year of DJT miserable life and 2024 the worst year ever. He needs to pay for the damage he has done to this nation and it's Constitution.


----------



## trekguy

Wino said:


> Hoping 2023 is the second worst year of DJT miserable life and 2024 the worst year ever. He needs to pay for the damage he has done to this nation and it's Constitution.


It's been a very long time coming, but karma and justice are coming for Trump!!


----------



## frozen igloo

Wino said:


> Trumpers are about as brilliant as Putin sycophants that continue to get rooms with a view above the second floor !!


Remind me who wants the southern border to remain like Swiss cheese?


----------



## frozen igloo

trekguy said:


> It's been a very long time coming, but karma and justice are coming for Trump!!


What is this like six years of throwing mud at the wall and hoping something will stick?


----------



## frozen igloo

Wino said:


> I suspect Trump lovers favorite movie is "Idiocracy" since it is a neo-precursor to a second orange pustule term. Conversations with trumpets is about as futile as bricking a camel to drink water.
> Happy New Year !!!


Are you color blind? hes gold not orange!!


----------



## trekguy

frozen igloo said:


> What is this like six years of throwing mud at the wall and hoping something will stick?


A case is being built... it's called evidence. I understand that's probably not something that you're familiar with. Trump is a traitor, and if you support him, then that makes you the same.


----------



## trekguy

#745 · Dec 30, 2022



> frozen igloo said:
> Merry Christmas.
> 
> You really think we had a more rocky road under Trump? Name a few things and we shall see how the two compare.


Rocky road items:
Trump tax "reform"... the super rich and big corporations made out like bandits. The estimated costs are somewhere around $1.5T.
Trump pressured OPEC/Saudis in 2019 to increase crude oil production just so gas prices would be lower on his watch. A rocky road for the hundreds of US startup oil companies that went belly-up because of it.
Trump's epic failure with the Covid pandemic. Ignored it, lied about it, and admitted that he lied about it. He's also one of the root causes for the belief in treatments that don't work and/or are dangerous, and also for the mistrust in the vaccines and the doctors that developed them. Hundreds of thousands of Americans are gone because of that.
Trump trade war with China was a rocky road for farmers who went bankrupt because of tanking corn and soybean prices.
Trump requested OPEC/Saudis to cut oil production in 2020... why? So gas prices would go up on Biden's watch. Also, he knew after the botched Covid, stock market drop, and unemployment up... he was losing in Nov... and he wanted it to be as bad as possible.
Withdrawal from Afghanistan... again, he knew he was losing in Nov... so, to make Biden look bad, he made deals with the Taliban for the release of 5000 Taliban fighters from Afghan prisons, and also the release of a Taliban official from a Pakistani prison, while at the same time, drawing down US troop levels to just 2500... by Jan 15. Jan 15... a week before Biden's inauguration. A very rocky road for the 2500 troops would have to somehow get US contractors out, disable equipment that was to be left there, and get themselves out as safely as possible. And they did an amazing job considering they were hamstrung by the buffoon Trump! Putting our troops in more danger as a political ploy is more than disgusting!
Trump stealing classified and top secret documents could prove to be a rocky road for many in the intelligence community, and for us in general depending on who ends up with sensitive information.
Traitor Trump's insurrection proved to be very rocky for DC police who were injured, and died on that day.

Ok, let's compare!!

Let's try this in the correct forum. 😝 I still would like to see some explanations.


----------



## frozen igloo

trekguy said:


> Trump is a traitor, and if you support him, then that makes you the same.


What great difficulty these people have in their failure to identify the meaning of "Make America Great Again" 

I feel bad for you - You have no idea what a true patriot really represents, do you?


----------



## SeanLaurence

What do YOU think MAGA means? The word "Again" implies that America is less great than some time in the past. When do you think America was at its greatest? Keep in mind that Donald Trump was using that slogan as early as August 2015.



frozen igloo said:


> What great difficulty these people have in their failure to identify the meaning of "Make America Great Again"
> 
> I feel bad for you - You have no idea what a true patriot really represents, do you?


----------



## frozen igloo

SeanLaurence said:


> What do YOU think MAGA means? The word "Again" implies that America is less great then some time in the past. When do you think America was at its greatest? Keep in mind that Donald Trump was using that slogan as early as August 2015.


Yeah, *America has been in decline for decades*. Just like restoring your automobile, there is nothing wrong with restoration. Doesn't take away from the authentic truth or meaning, with car or country.

The left wants you to believe that those who desire to preserve the nation's original ethics and principles are traitors, when in reality, the opposite is true.


----------



## SeanLaurence

You didn't answer my questions.
Are you old enough to remember that Ronald Reagan used the phrase: "Let’s Make America Great Again” as a slogan for his 1980 presidential campaign?
Bill Clinton used it in campaign speeches as well, but it was not considered one of his slogans.

Can you give specifics about what aspects of America have declined?




frozen igloo said:


> Yeah, *America has been in decline for decades*. Just like restoring your automobile, there is nothing wrong with restoration. Doesn't take away from the authentic truth, with car or country.
> 
> The left wants you to believe that preserving the nation's original ethics and principles is bad.


----------



## frozen igloo

SeanLaurence said:


> Can you give specifics about what aspects of America have declined?


Take an assessment of your car and look what needs fixing, now apply the same logic to your country. I really don't get what this has to do with anything, wouldn't you want to restore something to make it function normally again?


----------



## frozen igloo

SeanLaurence said:


> Can you give specifics about what aspects of America have declined?


Debt for one - its been pulling up for decades. Trump was clearing that out so we wouldn't be China's whipping boy.


----------



## trekguy

frozen igloo said:


> Yeah, *America has been in decline for decades*. Just like restoring your automobile, there is nothing wrong with restoration. Doesn't take away from the authentic truth or meaning, with car or country.
> 
> The left wants you to believe that those who desire to preserve the nation's original ethics and principles are traitors, when in reality, the opposite is true.


Decline? What exactly has been declining?  Crime? Pollution? Education? GDP? Technology? What? 

The nation's original ethics and principles? Like what? Black people and women aren't real people? You can't vote unless you own property?


----------



## SeanLaurence

Why are you trying to use an analogy to answer a straight question?
I am sure that you and I have very different views with regards to what a "normally functioning" nations looks like.

For instance, right now in the US house of representatives, they cannot decide on who will be the Speaker of the House for the next two years. No legislating can be done until that is decided. The country has not had this problem for over 100 years. That means that it is not "functioning normally" right now. What should be done?



frozen igloo said:


> Take an assessment of your car and look what needs fixing, now apply the same logic to your country. I really don't get what this has to do with anything, wouldn't you want to restore something to make it function normally again?


----------



## frozen igloo

trekguy said:


> Decline? What exactly has been declining? Crime? Pollution? Education? GDP? Technology? What?


Southern border, for example. That's a fact.


----------



## frozen igloo

trekguy said:


> Decline? What exactly has been declining? Crime? Pollution? Education? GDP? Technology? What?


Actually, everything you mentioned is in decline.


----------



## trekguy

frozen igloo said:


> Debt for one - its been pulling up for decades. Trump was clearing that out so we wouldn't be China's whipping boy.


Trump added $8 trillion dollars to the debt.... after inheriting a growing economy!


----------



## trekguy

frozen igloo said:


> Southern border, for example. That's a fact.


Actually, arrests are up. It's expected there will be over 2 million arrests in 2022. Did you know that the budget for Border Security in the US is 16 billion dollars. Did you know that there are 20,000 border patrol agents on the southern border alone?


----------



## trekguy

frozen igloo said:


> Actually, everything you mentioned is in decline.


Actually, they are not.


----------



## SeanLaurence

OK, Debt.
Have you ever taken a Macro Economics class? Debt is only a problem for countries when they can't pay back their debt. In other words, when investors are no longer willing to purchase Treasuries.
You have asserted that Trump was "clearing it out". I remember him saying he would. But did he?








Public debt U.S. 2022 | Statista


In September 2022, the national debt of the United States had risen up to 30.93 trillion U.S.




www.statista.com





It seems the biggest jump in the public debt was in 2020. I remember that. It was all that stimulus spending that was required to respond to the pandemic. There was also that Tax cut that congress passed while not cutting back on any significant spending.

I can also see one of the flattest spots on the Graph was 2014-2015 . Who was president then?

The Southern border is a more complex issue. One must first decide that it is an actual problem. Migrant workers come into the country and fill unskilled jobs. Statistics show that they are responsible for less crime per capita than native born americans. Since Title 42 was invoked by the Trump administration, the people that would have normally come over the border seeking asylum have been repeatedly turned away, only to try again. Wouldn't you if you were in their shoes?. So the "border encounters" statistics are inflated because the Border Patrol keeps turning around the same group of people over and over again.
There are still issues with there not being enough resources to process migrants and refugees, but I don't think those are the issues that you are concerned with.




frozen igloo said:


> Debt for one - its been pulling up for decades. Trump was clearing that out so we wouldn't be China's whipping boy.





frozen igloo said:


> Southern border, for example. That's a fact.


----------



## MisterEd51

trekguy said:


> Trump added $8 trillion dollars to the debt.... after inheriting a growing economy!


And you think we have a thriving economy now? You mustn't be in the middle or lower class or you wouldn't think that.

Half of that debt came in Trump's last year because of the Covid emergency. When Biden came into office he used Covid as an excuse to spend for political reasons. For some reason a Democrat adding to the debt doesn't bother other Democrats.

Democrats think of excessive spending as an investment. The problem is if done to extreme like the Democrats want is inflation. Its a vicious cycle where prices go up followed by wages lagging behind. There is no win on any ones part in doing this. The government's only way to stop this is to raise interest rates. Usually this ends in a recession. If the Democrats have their way they will use a recession to spend even more money...And then the inflation cycle starts again.

When Trump was in Office and before Covid the economy was thriving with record low unemployment and record high wage growth for the middle class. 

When Trump left office the US was energy independent. Biden trashed that advantage and had to beg foreign dictators and raid the Strategic Petroleum Reserve to keep oil prices from going too high.

When Trump left office inflation was 2%. Biden's unnecessary and excessive spending caused that to increase to 7-8%.


----------



## SeanLaurence

MisterEd51 said:


> And you think we have a thriving economy now?


Well, there is low unemployment, high inflation, and supply shortages. All signs of a "thriving economy"



> You mustn't be in the middle or lower class or you wouldn't think that.


I can't speak for every citizen. I can only go by what I read / hear / watch 



> Half of that debt came in Trump's last year because of the Covid emergency.


I am glad that you understand that point.



> When Biden came into office he used Covid as an excuse to spend for political reasons. For some reason a Democrat adding to the debt doesn't bother other Democrats.


Now you are showing Bias. Biden's big spending bill was also designed to address the Covid emergency.



> Democrats think of excessive spending as an investment. The problem is if done to extreme like the Democrats want is inflation. Its a vicious cycle where prices go up followed by wages lagging behind. There is no win on any ones part in doing this. The government's only way to stop this is to raise interest rates. Usually this ends in a recession. If the Democrats have their way they will use a recession to spend even more money...And then the inflation cycle starts again.


Well yes, Government spending is supposed to be an investment. Some investments are better than others. The two parties seem to have different spending priorities. Social security and Medicare are some top line items that get little return. Senior citizens are not "Productive". But they do vote so those programs get bipartisan support.
The military isn't terribly productive either, but the cost of ensuring the country and all the trading partners is well defended is arguably a good investment.
Education is supposed to be an investment in the future. It seems American teachers are not as well compensated as their counterparts in other wealthy nations
Healthcare in general is also supposed to make the population more productive. Individuals unfit to work can't.
And then there is infrastructure. Money spent on infrastructure is an investment in the future. The only question is if there are enough tradesmen to build it all.



> When Trump was in Office and before Covid the economy was thriving with record low unemployment and record high wage growth for the middle class.


Just the way it was running when Obama handed it over to him.



> When Trump left office the US was energy independent. Biden trashed that advantage and had to beg foreign dictators and raid the Strategic Petroleum Reserve to keep oil prices from going too high.


The US is still energy independent. If you bothered to look at the field production figures you would see that there is just as much oil being produced in the US under Biden as there was under Trump. The reason why Biden had to beg the Saudis to turn the taps back on was because Trump threatened to stop arms sales to them if they didn't turn them off back in early 2020. 
The use of the Strategic Petroleum Reserve was a brilliant move. Buy low, sell High. Oil prices were stabilised and the US taxpayer will come out ahead.



> When Trump left office inflation was 2%. Biden's unnecessary and excessive spending caused that to increase to 7-8%.


It is hard to predict what inflation would have been like if Trump had secured a second term. We do know that the rest of the world has also experienced post covid inflation. Would he have passed a similar stimulus bill? I think he would have. Would he have fixed the problems in the container ports and the rest of the transportation systems? I doubt it, but we will never know.


----------



## SeanLaurence

If you are not going to put in any effort, then don't expect any effort in response.


frozen igloo said:


> Actually, everything you mentioned is in decline.


----------



## frozen igloo

SeanLaurence said:


> Why are you trying to use an analogy to answer a straight question?
> I am sure that you and I have very different views with regards to what a "normally functioning" nations looks like.
> 
> For instance, right now in the US house of representatives, they cannot decide on who will be the Speaker of the House for the next two years. No legislating can be done until that is decided. x The country has not had this problem for over 100 years. That means that it is not "functioning normally" right now. What should be done?


Because you are missing the larger point here. America needed desperate help. If you can't see that now, you never will. Thats sad.


----------



## frozen igloo

SeanLaurence said:


> If you are not going to put in any effort, then don't expect any effort in response.


Lets go point by point. Where do you want to start?


----------



## frozen igloo

SeanLaurence said:


> Just the way it was running when Obama handed it over to him.


Common misconception - democrats always use this to detract from the fact that Trump created the best economy the world has ever known. The economy was in horrific shape when Obama handed it over.


----------



## frozen igloo

SeanLaurence said:


> The Southern border is a more complex issue. One must first decide that it is an actual problem. Migrant workers come into the country and fill unskilled jobs. Statistics show that they are responsible for less crime per capita than native born americans. Since Title 42 was invoked by the Trump administration, the people that would have normally come over the border seeking asylum have been repeatedly turned away, only to try again. Wouldn't you if you were in their shoes?. So the "border encounters" statistics are inflated because the Border Patrol keeps turning around the same group of people over and over again.
> There are still issues with there not being enough resources to process migrants and refugees, but I don't think those are the issues that you are concerned with.


The southern border is a mess, and like swiss cheese, you will admit that much, right?


----------



## SeanLaurence

frozen igloo said:


> Common misconception - democrats always use this to detract from the fact that Trump created the best economy the world has ever known. The economy was in horrific shape when Obama handed it over.


Than is objectively not true:








Obama’s Legacy on the Economy Is Anything But a Mess


The economy and the labor market experienced long periods of stable growth during Barack Obama’s presidency, laying the foundation to address remaining issues in the Trump administration.




www.americanprogress.org


----------



## frozen igloo

Well for one, he used the EPA to restrict economic development, the energy sector and he banned oil rigs in Alaska and part of the gulf, a major resource for America. 

Think he was just doing that for the wildlife?


----------



## SeanLaurence

frozen igloo said:


> The southern border is a mess, and like swiss cheese, you will admit that much, right?


The southern border has always been an issue. 
In order to score political points, the Trump administration choked off the flow of both illegal and legal crossings with inhumane and illegal policies. So when the Biden administration attempts to restore policy to the status quo and there is a resulting increase in *attempted *border crossings as a result, Fox news hosts work themselves into a lather.
If you think the southern border is "like swiss cheese" you had better not look north. The Canadian border has almost no walls or fences.
The US lost over a million people to Covid over the past few years. Immigration does not come close to replacing them. Your concerns over border security are unfounded.


----------



## SeanLaurence

frozen igloo said:


> Well for one, he used the EPA to restrict economic development, the energy sector and he banned oil rigs in Alaska and part of the gulf, a major resource for America.
> Think he was just doing that for the wildlife?


Did he? I am pretty sure the EPA does not take direct orders from the president. 
I do know that he did give an order for all agencies to review any policies enacted under the previous administration and recid any that ran counter to the mission of the agency. It was called the "Executive Order on Protecting Public Health and the Environment and Restoring Science to Tackle the Climate Crisis"








Executive Order on Protecting Public Health and the Environment and Restoring Science to Tackle the Climate Crisis | The White House


By the authority vested in me as President by the Constitution and the laws of the United States of America, it is hereby ordered as follows:




www.whitehouse.gov





When he first took office, he enacted a *TEMPORARY *moratorium on developing new leases in the arctic wildlife reserve. These leases had only been created a few months prior by the trump administration. This had no affect on any economic development etc.

You really do need to visit a country where the are lax environmental laws. The EPA and its inconvenient and sometimes costly regulations is one of the things that makes america great.

In the mean time, check out this article on an Alaska drilling project that the Biden admin has endorsed.


https://www.nytimes.com/2022/07/08/climate/willow-alaska-oil-project-environment.html


----------



## trekguy

frozen igloo said:


> Take an assessment of your car and look what needs fixing, now apply the same logic to your country. I really don't get what this has to do with anything, wouldn't you want to restore something to make it function normally again?


I just went out to the garage and took an assessment of my car. It's about 5 years old, has 56k miles on it. Oil change due in 2k miles. Tires are about 70%. It could use a wash, but it's cold here right now, so that'll have to wait. I would say it's in excellent to like new condition. I might get new tires for next winter, but then again, I might trade up to newer again, depending on prices and availability. So, applying the same logic to the country, I assess real things, and have real ideas about what's happening, and what should and could be better. I do not believe lies and conspiracy theories, which are designed to keep some people in political power for the sole purpose of rich people getting richer. I would like to believe that "functioning normally" for our country is when everybody works together to make it happen.


----------



## trekguy

MisterEd51 said:


> And you think we have a thriving economy now? You mustn't be in the middle or lower class or you wouldn't think that.


Every business owner I know is busy, and doing great. They could do better, if they could find more people to work.



MisterEd51 said:


> Half of that debt came in Trump's last year because of the Covid emergency. When Biden came into office he used Covid as an excuse to spend for political reasons. For some reason a Democrat adding to the debt doesn't bother other Democrats.


Haha, so Trump's Covid spending was legit, but Biden's Covid spending is political. Got it. As far as deficits, go back over the last few Presidents... every Republican President had increasing deficits, while every Democrat President had decreasing deficits. The amazing thing about that is that the Democrats had to overcome disastrous terms by their predecessors in each case.



MisterEd51 said:


> Democrats think of excessive spending as an investment. The problem is if done to extreme like the Democrats want is inflation. Its a vicious cycle where prices go up followed by wages lagging behind. There is no win on any ones part in doing this. The government's only way to stop this is to raise interest rates. Usually this ends in a recession. If the Democrats have their way they will use a recession to spend even more money...And then the inflation cycle starts again.


Again, go back over the last 40 years... and see who was in the oval office when the economy was growing. Also, inflation this time around is due to the global pandemic...hence, global inflation. It's not just here. And also, corporate greed. Big corporations are recouping profits lost in 2020 and 2021. 



MisterEd51 said:


> When Trump was in Office and before Covid the economy was thriving with record low unemployment and record high wage growth for the middle class.


Exactly how it was when he took office... growing. What did the Republicans do? They do what they always do... cut taxes for the richest 1%. That is the only thing that they ever get done. Democrats build economies, and Republicans cash in. The richest people make money both ways, you know. They actually want the economy to go up and down. 



MisterEd51 said:


> When Trump left office the US was energy independent. Biden trashed that advantage and had to beg foreign dictators and raid the Strategic Petroleum Reserve to keep oil prices from going too high.


We have never actually been energy independent. The US is the number one producer of oil in the world, but also the number one consumer... by far. The reason it appeared that we were energy independent was that we had a glut of gasoline during the pandemic. Storage facilities were full.



MisterEd51 said:


> When Trump left office inflation was 2%. Biden's unnecessary and excessive spending caused that to increase to 7-8%.


Again, inflation is global. And what exactly is the excessive spending you are talking about?


----------



## trekguy

frozen igloo said:


> Lets go point by point. Where do you want to start?


Uh, Mr Point by point, you missed this. These are all real things.



> frozen igloo said:
> Merry Christmas.
> 
> You really think we had a more rocky road under Trump? Name a few things and we shall see how the two compare.


Rocky road items:
Trump tax "reform"... the super rich and big corporations made out like bandits. The estimated costs are somewhere around $1.5T.

Trump pressured OPEC/Saudis in 2019 to increase crude oil production just so gas prices would be lower on his watch. A rocky road for the hundreds of US startup oil companies that went belly-up because of it.

Trump's epic failure with the Covid pandemic. Ignored it, lied about it, and admitted that he lied about it. He's also one of the root causes for the belief in treatments that don't work and/or are dangerous, and also for the mistrust in the vaccines and the doctors that developed them. Hundreds of thousands of Americans are gone because of that.

Trump trade war with China was a rocky road for farmers who went bankrupt because of tanking corn and soybean prices.

Trump requested OPEC/Saudis to cut oil production in 2020... why? So gas prices would go up on Biden's watch. Also, he knew after the botched Covid, stock market drop, and unemployment up... he was losing in Nov... and he wanted it to be as bad as possible.

Withdrawal from Afghanistan... again, he knew he was losing in Nov... so, to make Biden look bad, he made deals with the Taliban for the release of 5000 Taliban fighters from Afghan prisons, and also the release of a Taliban official from a Pakistani prison, while at the same time, drawing down US troop levels to just 2500... by Jan 15. Jan 15... a week before Biden's inauguration. A very rocky road for the 2500 troops would have to somehow get US contractors out, disable equipment that was to be left there, and get themselves out as safely as possible. And they did an amazing job considering they were hamstrung by the buffoon Trump! Putting our troops in more danger as a political ploy is more than disgusting!

Trump stealing classified and top secret documents could prove to be a rocky road for many in the intelligence community, and for us in general depending on who ends up with sensitive information.

Traitor Trump's insurrection proved to be very rocky for DC police who were injured, and died on that day.

Ok, let's compare!!


----------



## frozen igloo

SeanLaurence said:


> The southern border has always been an issue.


Right, so that's one issue that needs improvement, since you just admitted it's a problem we have?

I thought America was perfect in every single way, according to you?


----------



## frozen igloo

trekguy said:


> I just went out to the garage and took an assessment of my car. It's about 5 years old, has 56k miles on it. Oil change due in 2k miles. Tires are about 70%. It could use a wash, but it's cold here right now, so that'll have to wait. I would say it's in excellent to like new condition. I might get new tires for next winter, but then again, I might trade up to newer again, depending on prices and availability. So, applying the same logic to the country, I assess real things, and have real ideas about what's happening, and what should and could be better. I do not believe lies and conspiracy theories, which are designed to keep some people in political power for the sole purpose of rich people getting richer. I would like to believe that "functioning normally" for our country is when everybody works together to make it happen.


Not an accurate comparison, the country is old so the car must be at least 300 years old as well lol 

Did you check your timing belt? Maybe if you dig a little deeper you will:
a) hit china because your head is that far in the sand
OR
b) find potentially more gremlins that you are not aware of such as brakes, as they should usually be replaced around that mileage. 

And a wash is a problem. America needs cleaning up as well. Need new tires? So does America.

You are not a patriot. You don't support the founding fathers or the constitution and you are well aware of what you are doing and what side you stand on.


----------



## frozen igloo

trekguy said:


> Uh, Mr Point by point, you missed this. These are all real things.
> 
> 
> Rocky road items:
> Trump tax "reform"... the super rich and big corporations made out like bandits. The estimated costs are somewhere around $1.5T.
> 
> Trump pressured OPEC/Saudis in 2019 to increase crude oil production just so gas prices would be lower on his watch. A rocky road for the hundreds of US startup oil companies that went belly-up because of it.
> 
> Trump's epic failure with the Covid pandemic. Ignored it, lied about it, and admitted that he lied about it. He's also one of the root causes for the belief in treatments that don't work and/or are dangerous, and also for the mistrust in the vaccines and the doctors that developed them. Hundreds of thousands of Americans are gone because of that.
> 
> Trump trade war with China was a rocky road for farmers who went bankrupt because of tanking corn and soybean prices.
> 
> Trump requested OPEC/Saudis to cut oil production in 2020... why? So gas prices would go up on Biden's watch. Also, he knew after the botched Covid, stock market drop, and unemployment up... he was losing in Nov... and he wanted it to be as bad as possible.
> 
> Withdrawal from Afghanistan... again, he knew he was losing in Nov... so, to make Biden look bad, he made deals with the Taliban for the release of 5000 Taliban fighters from Afghan prisons, and also the release of a Taliban official from a Pakistani prison, while at the same time, drawing down US troop levels to just 2500... by Jan 15. Jan 15... a week before Biden's inauguration. A very rocky road for the 2500 troops would have to somehow get US contractors out, disable equipment that was to be left there, and get themselves out as safely as possible. And they did an amazing job considering they were hamstrung by the buffoon Trump! Putting our troops in more danger as a political ploy is more than disgusting!
> 
> Trump stealing classified and top secret documents could prove to be a rocky road for many in the intelligence community, and for us in general depending on who ends up with sensitive information.
> 
> Traitor Trump's insurrection proved to be very rocky for DC police who were injured, and died on that day.
> 
> Ok, let's compare!!


Did we have war during Trumps presidency? How about inflation? Did we have food distribution centers burning to the ground? Did we have high unemployment? Did we have a worse southern border? Did Trump bring home our troops? Did Trump create the best economy in world history? Did we have like a mass shooting every other day? How about the murder rates in democratically controlled cities? They have spiked under Biden. 

Your head is in the sand, time to wake up


----------



## frozen igloo

SeanLaurence said:


> The southern border has always been an issue.
> In order to score political points, the Trump administration choked off the flow of both illegal and legal crossings with inhumane and illegal policies. So when the Biden administration attempts to restore policy to the status quo and there is a resulting increase in *attempted *border crossings as a result, Fox news hosts work themselves into a lather.
> If you think the southern border is "like swiss cheese" you had better not look north. The Canadian border has almost no walls or fences.
> The US lost over a million people to Covid over the past few years. Immigration does not come close to replacing them. Your concerns over border security are unfounded.


LOL the drugs and the violence is coming from Mexico not Canada... you should know this by now.

Covid is a biological weapon created by the Chinese to destroy the American economy and it has Fauci written all over it.


----------



## SeanLaurence

frozen igloo said:


> Right, so that's one issue that needs improvement, since you just admitted it's a problem we have?
> 
> I thought America was perfect in every single way, according to you?


I used the word "Issue" and not "Problem". There is a difference. 
I have made the point that the Southern Border is not as big a problem as you seem to make it out to be, and it is certainly not a problem of Biden's creation.

To expound on the border issue, I would like to make a few points:
People don't generally like to upend their lives and move to a new place, especially if that place in unwelcoming. These people that do make the trip are doing so because they face dire problems at home and have the strength to try to make their lives better. They should be welcomed as they will work hard and be a net benefit to the US.

The US is a massive country with amazing resources and lots of good ideas on how to solve social problems. Helping her southern neighbours to increase wealth and decrease crime will create an environment where their people will not want to leave. This is a much better use of resources and more effective than building a wall, or policing a stip of land.


----------



## SeanLaurence

frozen igloo said:


> LOL the drugs and the violence is coming from Mexico not Canada... you should know this by now.


Drugs are a demand problem. If people didn't buy them, then criminals wouldn't supply them. Drug addiction is a health problem. If the government increased treatment programs and/or supplied cheap and clean drugs to the addicts, the market would dry up for smuggles. You can't stop the flow of smuggled drugs, there is too much cross border traffic. You may as well try to stop the tide from coming in.



> Covid is a biological weapon created by the Chinese to destroy the American economy and it has Fauci written all over it.


That's a pretty special theory you got there Skippy. When the Chinese made this bio weapon (in their own country), how is it that they KNEW that it would not destroy their own economy? How do you know that their target was America? They might have been targeting any other of their rivals. Your conspiracy theory falls apart pretty fast with only the smallest bit of thought. This is not to say that Sen Rand Paul didn't have these thoughts.


----------



## trekguy

frozen igloo said:


> Not an accurate comparison, the country is old so the car must be at least 300 years old as well lol
> 
> Did you check your timing belt? Maybe if you dig a little deeper you will:
> a) hit china because your head is that far in the sand
> OR
> b) find potentially more gremlins that you are not aware of such as brakes, as they should usually be replaced around that mileage.
> 
> And a wash is a problem. America needs cleaning up as well. Need new tires? So does America.
> 
> You are not a patriot. You don't support the founding fathers or the constitution and you are well aware of what you are doing and what side you stand on.


Hahaha! You made the comparison!
You don't check timing belts... you replace them... either proactively at a certain mileage, or after they break. Duh.
I'm very easy on brakes... plenty left.
You can't answer a simple question. You refuse to acknowledge Trump/Republican failures... at all.
I'm not surprised.


----------



## trekguy

frozen igloo said:


> Did we have war during Trumps presidency? How about inflation? Did we have food distribution centers burning to the ground? Did we have high unemployment? Did we have a worse southern border? Did Trump bring home our troops? Did Trump create the best economy in world history? Did we have like a mass shooting every other day? How about the murder rates in democratically controlled cities? They have spiked under Biden.
> 
> Your head is in the sand, time to wake up


Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Worse? Define worse. Brought some home...put the remaining 2500 in a very bad spot. No. Like a mass shooting? (note: the majority of mass-shooters are right wing extremists). Murder rates are much higher per capita in red states. Crime as trended down over the last four decades, but periods of economic hardships will cause spikes... Bush's recession, Trump's pandemic, etc.


----------



## trekguy

SeanLaurence said:


> I used the word "Issue" and not "Problem". There is a difference.
> I have made the point that the Southern Border is not as big a problem as you seem to make it out to be, and it is certainly not a problem of Biden's creation.
> 
> To expound on the border issue, I would like to make a few points:
> People don't generally like to upend their lives and move to a new place, especially if that place in unwelcoming. These people that do make the trip are doing so because they face dire problems at home and have the strength to try to make their lives better. They should be welcomed as they will work hard and be a net benefit to the US.
> 
> The US is a massive country with amazing resources and lots of good ideas on how to solve social problems. Helping her southern neighbours to increase wealth and decrease crime will create an environment where their people will not want to leave. This is a much better use of resources and more effective than building a wall, or policing a stip of land.


Agreed. The people who are complaining the most about the southern border are simply afraid of brown-skinned people. 
The refugees coming from the south are coming here to work. To escape crappy living conditions. Are they all perfectly wonderful people? No. But neither are we.


----------



## trekguy

frozen igloo said:


> LOL the drugs and the violence is coming from Mexico not Canada... you should know this by now.
> 
> Covid is a biological weapon created by the Chinese to destroy the American economy and it has Fauci written all over it.


Yes!!! You are filling up my propaganda bingo card!


----------



## frozen igloo

trekguy said:


> Trump stealing classified and top secret documents could prove to be a rocky road for many in the intelligence community, and for us in general depending on who ends up with sensitive information.


Right, he is only th


SeanLaurence said:


> I used the word "Issue" and not "Problem". There is a difference.


You don't think the rapes and lawlessness and drug smuggling surrounding the southern border merits correction?


----------



## frozen igloo

trekguy said:


> Hahaha! You made the comparison!


The first line was a joke. Or supposed to be!


----------



## frozen igloo

SeanLaurence said:


> I used the word "Issue" and not "Problem". There is a difference.
> I have made the point that the Southern Border is not as big a problem as you seem to make it out to be, and it is certainly not a problem of Biden's creation.
> 
> To expound on the border issue, I would like to make a few points:
> People don't generally like to upend their lives and move to a new place, especially if that place in unwelcoming. These people that do make the trip are doing so because they face dire problems at home and have the strength to try to make their lives better. They should be welcomed as they will work hard and be a net benefit to the US.
> 
> The US is a massive country with amazing resources and lots of good ideas on how to solve social problems. Helping her southern neighbours to increase wealth and decrease crime will create an environment where their people will not want to leave. This is a much better use of resources and more effective than building a wall, or policing a stip of land.


Walls are very effective. Just look at the great wall of China!


----------



## frozen igloo

SeanLaurence said:


> Drugs are a demand problem. If people didn't buy them, then criminals wouldn't supply them. Drug addiction is a health problem. If the government increased treatment programs and/or supplied cheap and clean drugs to the addicts, the market would dry up for smuggles. You can't stop the flow of smuggled drugs, there is too much cross border traffic. You may as well try to stop the tide from coming in.
> 
> 
> 
> That's a pretty special theory you got there Skippy. When the Chinese made this bio weapon (in their own country), how is it that they KNEW that it would not destroy their own economy? How do you know that their target was America? They might have been targeting any other of their rivals. Your conspiracy theory falls apart pretty fast with only the smallest bit of thought. This is not to say that Sen Rand Paul didn't have these thoughts.


Easy response here. China has been into population control for decades now, so when they use covid it is to their advantage in almost every single way.. And in addition, when they supplement that with the vaccine the death rates both home and abroad are pretty substantial.* They are pretty happy with the mortality rate of both covid and the vaccine.* Regarding the economic damage covid is doing? China doesn't give a damn, because yeah they will suffer some losses but overall, covid will actually give them the opportunity to be the #1 superpower in the world once the United States is dealt with. BTW- If covid originated from a wet market why have they not traced it back to the original animal yet?

They targeted America because of our freedoms and our constitutionally protected rights in what we call a constitutional representative republic. This is as close to a free society as it can get. The Chinese government is filled with globalists. They want to end our freedoms and deploy socialism for all, globally. Perfect dichotomy. These two governing bodies cannot co-exist peacefully, has history has informed us. People like you appear to think everything is going like clockwork but in reality, the country is about to implode. 

Jeopardy question of the day:
What US president was actually a closet socialist?


----------



## SeanLaurence

frozen igloo said:


> You don't think the rapes and lawlessness and drug smuggling surrounding the southern border merits correction?


"Correction" is an odd choice of word, but generally I do advocate for crime reduction. The question is: Do people arriving at the southern border bring with them a disproportionately high crime rate? I think they don't.
There are different kinds of people that try to cross the border: Tourists that arrive with passports. I hope you don't have a problem with them.
Refugees that arrive looking for refuge. By international treaty, the US is obligated to hear their case and admit them into the country if they have a valid claim. It is not easy to convince an immigration officer that you have a legitimate claim.
Migrant Workers. These are the ones that find jobs that pay badly and are exploited because they will get deported if they are discovered. You won't find them committing much crime.
Criminals and Drug smugglers. This is the only group to worry about. How big a group do you think it is? Should we deport a migrant worker who is employed picking lettuce because we think he might be a drug smuggler?


----------



## Cookiegal

@frozen igloo,

I've deleted your post with the image as it's offensive. You are also still making assertions and claims without backing them up with links to sources. An official warn has been placed on your account with loss of 2 points. If this behaviour continues more warns will be issued accordingly and should it persist your account will be banned permanently.


----------



## SeanLaurence

frozen igloo said:


> Easy response here. China has been into population control for decades now, so when they use covid it is to their advantage in almost every single way.. And in addition, when they supplement that with the vaccine the death rates both home and abroad are pretty substantial.* They are pretty happy with the mortality rate of both covid and the vaccine.* Regarding the economic damage covid is doing? China doesn't give a damn, because yeah they will suffer some losses but overall, covid will actually give them the opportunity to be the #1 superpower in the world once the United States is dealt with. BTW- If covid originated from a wet market why have they not traced it back to the original animal yet?
> 
> They targeted America because of our freedoms and our constitutionally protected rights in what we call a constitutional representative republic. This is as close to a free society as it can get. The Chinese government is filled with globalists. They want to end our freedoms and deploy socialism for all, globally. Perfect dichotomy. These two governing bodies cannot co-exist peacefully, has history has informed us. People like you appear to think everything is going like clockwork but in reality, the country is about to implode.
> 
> Jeopardy question of the day:
> What US president was actually a closet socialist?


Your reasoning is still bereft of logic. 
China began its one child policy in 1980 as a means of population control. It worked too well however and was rescinded in 2015. So they no longer are trying to control their population officially.
In response to Covid, China implemented a zero covid policy that involved sever lockdowns and extensive testing. If they wanted to kill their population off, then they wouldn't have bothered. If it was a plot against America (or the rest of the world), then it was a pretty ballsy move: the current strain cannot be contained. Just recently they have rescinded the policy and rumour has it that the virus is spreading like crazy.

The US is a major consumer of Chinese goods. Why would they want to kill off their best customer?

Tracing back the origin of a disease is incredibly hard. Very few diseases have ever been traced back to a patient zero. 

The US does not even crack the top 10 in surveys of "free" countries. You need to travel more.

What kind of globalist are you referring to? The kind that realises that we are all on this tiny spec of a planet and we need to figure out how to get along or the conspiracy theory kind that wants to hang George Soros?

John Adams and FDR have both been accused of being socialists. So what?
Are you afraid of socialism? You should know your enemy:
"Socialism is a left-wing economic philosophy and movement encompassing a range of economic systems characterized by the dominance of social ownership of the means of production as opposed to private ownership." (wikipedia)
There are all kinds of everyday enterprises in the US that are socialist, starting with every branch of the US military. 
Like everything in life, society works best with a sensible mix of socialist and capitalist enterprises. 
Farms and Grocery stores work well in capitalism. Firehalls and Police are better run by government.


----------



## SeanLaurence

frozen igloo said:


> Walls are very effective. Just look at the great wall of China!


Really?
Trump’s border wall has been breached more than 3,000 times by smugglers, CBP records show
March 2, 2022 at 2:32 p.m. EST


https://www.washingtonpost.com/national-security/2022/03/02/trump-border-wall-breached/


----------



## frozen igloo

SeanLaurence said:


> Really?
> Trump’s border wall has been breached more than 3,000 times by smugglers, CBP records show
> March 2, 2022 at 2:32 p.m. EST
> 
> 
> https://www.washingtonpost.com/national-security/2022/03/02/trump-border-wall-breached/


Thats because the democrats wouldn't let him finish it! LOL


----------



## frozen igloo

Cookiegal said:


> @frozen igloo,
> 
> I've deleted your post with the image as it's offensive. You are also still making assertions and claims without backing them up with links to sources. An official warn has been placed on your account with loss of 2 points. If this behaviour continues more warns will be issued accordingly and should it persist your account will be banned permanently.


Okay sorry, what sources do you want me to list and for what posts?


----------



## SeanLaurence

frozen igloo said:


> Thats because the democrats wouldn't let him finish it! LOL


If you read the article, you would have seen that the smugglers etc were breaching the existing wall by cutting through it.




> Mexican smuggling gangs have sawed through new segments of border wall 3,272 times over the past three years, according to unpublished U.S. Customs and Border Protection maintenance records obtained by The Washington Post under the Freedom of Information Act.
> 
> The government spent $2.6 million to repair the breaches during the 2019 to 2021 fiscal years, the CBP records show. While the agency has acknowledged that smugglers are able to hack through the new barriers built by the Trump administration, the maintenance records show damage has been more widespread than previously known, pointing to the structure’s limitations as an impediment to illegal crossings.


----------



## SeanLaurence

frozen igloo said:


> Okay sorry, what sources do you want me to list and for what posts?


Try reading how others reply. (except mr ed). Even Chawbacon manages to stay civil.
From your profile pic, I would surmise that it is your intent to blow things up. The mods have given you a great deal of leeway. I would not be surprised if you find yourself banned sonn.


----------



## frozen igloo

SeanLaurence said:


> If you read the article, you would have seen that the smugglers etc were breaching the existing wall by cutting through it.


Nope the wall was not completed that was the major and chief breach of them all. As I said, swiss cheese


----------



## frozen igloo

SeanLaurence said:


> Try reading how others reply. (except mr ed). Even Chawbacon manages to stay civil.
> From your profile pic, I would surmise that it is your intent to blow things up. The mods have given you a great deal of leeway. I would not be surprised if you find yourself banned sonn.


They have been kind to me so far, and I promise to be more "friendly" going forward, sometimes I let the politics get out of hand.

As for the avatar it's just the icon from the game Serious Sam 4, I thought it was kind of funny so I use it every now and then. Nothing else implied.


----------



## MisterEd51

trekguy said:


> The refugees coming from the south are coming here to work. To escape crappy living conditions. Are they all perfectly wonderful people? No. But neither are we.


According to current immigattion law qualifying for asylum is the only legal reason these people can stay in the United States on a permanent basic. Note there are other reasons but these are only for a temporary stay.

However, if they want to come here to work or escape crappy conditions they must do it the legal way and apply from their home countries.

Of course as a Democrat the law doesn't matter does it?


----------



## MisterEd51

SeanLaurence said:


> Really?
> Trump’s border wall has been breached more than 3,000 times by smugglers, CBP records show
> March 2, 2022 at 2:32 p.m. EST
> 
> 
> https://www.washingtonpost.com/national-security/2022/03/02/trump-border-wall-breached/


If the Democrats had their way there would be no reason for anyone to breach any wall. They would tear down all walls and other barriers. They would then eliminate all the border patrol jobs and offer them new jobs at welcome centers on the border. They might even open welcome centers in other countries where they would offer free transportation to anyone who wanted to come to the United States. That would eliminate all the hardships these people go through now trying to get here.

The Democrats missed their chance to pass a new immigration law. Their new law could have made it legal for anyone to enter the United States for any reason and stay as long as they wanted. With a law like that the border patrol's only job would be was to stop the entry of illegal drugs and other contraband.


----------



## Cookiegal

frozen igloo said:


> Okay sorry, what sources do you want me to list and for what posts?


I'm not going to go back and find all of the posts but ask you to start doing so going forward. Sean made a good point, look at how others are posting but basically whenever you make an assertion, such as the one in your post no. 2,981 in this thread, you need to post something to back it up. Anyone can say anything but it holds no weight without there being some evidence out there of it. I could say you created Covid and set it free to attack the world. I have been trying to be lenient and let things flow but when someome comes in like a wrecking ball it appears more like they are here to cause trouble than to have an honest and cordial debate by putting forth supporting and credible evidence. Please keep these things in mind.


----------



## SeanLaurence

MisterEd51 said:


> According to current immigattion law qualifying for asylum is the only legal reason these people can stay in the United States on a permanent basic. Note there are other reasons but these are only for a temporary stay.
> However, if they want to come here to work or escape crappy conditions they must do it the legal way and apply from their home countries.
> Of course as a Democrat the law doesn't matter does it?


I think you need to provide evidence that Democrats want something different from what you described here.

This is what they are officially trying to accomplish:








FACT SHEET: Biden-Harris Administration Announces New Border Enforcement Actions | The White House


New Measures Leverage Success of Venezuela Enforcement Initiative to Limit Disorderly and Unsafe Migration While the courts have prevented the Title 42




www.whitehouse.gov


----------



## frozen igloo

MisterEd51 said:


> If the Democrats had their way there would be no reason for anyone to breach any wall. They would tear down all walls and other barriers. They would then eliminate all the border patrol jobs and offer them new jobs at welcome centers on the border. They might even open welcome centers in other countries where they would offer free transportation to anyone who wanted to come to the United States. That would eliminate all the hardships these people go through now trying to get here.
> 
> The Democrats missed their chance to pass a new immigration law. Their new law could have made it legal for anyone to enter the United States for any reason and stay as long as they wanted. With a law like that the border patrol's only job would be was to stop the entry of illegal drugs and other contraband.


Nailed it.


----------



## SeanLaurence

MisterEd51 said:


> If the Democrats had their way there would be no reason for anyone to breach any wall. They would tear down all walls and other barriers. They would then eliminate all the border patrol jobs and offer them new jobs at welcome centers on the border. They might even open welcome centers in other countries where they would offer free transportation to anyone who wanted to come to the United States. That would eliminate all the hardships these people go through now trying to get here.
> 
> The Democrats missed their chance to pass a new immigration law. Their new law could have made it legal for anyone to enter the United States for any reason and stay as long as they wanted. With a law like that the border patrol's only job would be was to stop the entry of illegal drugs and other contraband.


Tell me more about this missed opportunity.
What was the proposed legislation that the democrats could have passed in the house and the Senate?
Here is a list of all the Cloture Motions filed in the 117th congress. I don't see anything regarding the borders in there.
Could it be that Senator Schumer knew that such a bill would not get past a GOP filibuster so he didn't even try?





U.S. Senate: Cloture Motions - 117th Congress


_Cloture Motions - 117th Congress




www.senate.gov


----------



## MisterEd51

SeanLaurence said:


> Tell me more about this missed opportunity.
> What was the proposed legislation that the democrats could have passed in the house and the Senate?
> Here is a list of all the Cloture Motions filed in the 117th congress. I don't see anything regarding the borders in there.
> Could it be that Senator Schumer knew that such a bill would not get past a GOP filibuster so he didn't even try?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> U.S. Senate: Cloture Motions - 117th Congress
> 
> 
> _Cloture Motions - 117th Congress
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.senate.gov


For decades the Democrats have talked about comprehensive immigration reform but have not even tried to even propose legislation. It seems it is more valuable as a talking point. Besides they really don't need it if they ignore enough laws. If they do they have de facto amnesty anyways.

How pathetic for HS's Mayorkas to just pretend there is no problem by saying the border is secure. Especially since HS's own data shows there is a record number of people crossing the border illegally.

Don't forget that during the last Democrat presidential debate all the participants were asked if they were for open borders. They all raised theire hands including Biden. The Democrats now claim that they are not for open borders. In reality the border is more open now than it has ever been in my lifetime. I expect after four years in office Biden will have allowed more than 10 million people to illegally enter the United States. It is ironic that many Democrats will consider that a failure since they really want an open border where that number would be a lot higher.


----------



## valis

What is the inscription on the Statue Of Liberty again?

I will guarantee you that you are not from America originally. By your logic (and please correct me if I am wrong) that makes YOU an illegal alien.

You probably think English is the official language of America as well.

Betcha you are Christian too, but only follow the parts that agree with your view.

We could go on, but I know you and your ilk. Christian but ignoring the 10 Commandments.


----------



## MisterEd51

valis said:


> What is the inscription on the Statue Of Liberty again?
> 
> I will guarantee you that you are not from America originally. By your logic (and please correct me if I am wrong) that makes YOU an illegal alien.
> 
> You probably think English is the official language of America as well.
> 
> Betcha you are Christian too, but only follow the parts that agree with your view.
> 
> We could go on, but I know you and your ilk. Christian but ignoring the 10 Commandments.


What does all of this have to do with anything? For your information..in the United States law is based on the Constitution and established law. Immigration is based upon law not some fanciful and wishful thinking by you and your Democrat friends. If you don't like the current law ask your legislative buddies to stop ignoring current law and ask them to change the immigration law to something more agreeable to you.

I am not a Christian or in any way religious. Last time I looked the 10 Commandments was not in the Constitution.

BTW, if you payed attention to the the current oath of office just done overnight by Congress you might think otherwise...



> “I, AB, do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; that I take this obligation freely, without any mental reservation or purpose of evasion, and that I will well and faithfully discharge the duties of the office on which I am about to enter. So help me God.”


Note these legislatures swore to uphold the Constitution even if it is in conflict with their own personal feeling or religious beliefs. A lot of people especially Democrats for some reason seem to forget that.


----------



## SeanLaurence

MisterEd51 said:


> For decades the Democrats have talked about comprehensive immigration reform but have not even tried to even propose legislation. It seems it is more valuable as a talking point. Besides they really don't need it if they ignore enough laws. If they do they have de facto amnesty anyways.
> 
> How pathetic for HS's Mayorkas to just pretend there is no problem by saying the border is secure. Especially since HS's own data shows there is a record number of people crossing the border illegally.
> 
> Don't forget that during the last Democrat presidential debate all the participants were asked if they were for open borders. They all raised theire hands including Biden. The Democrats now claim that they are not for open borders. In reality the border is more open now than it has ever been in my lifetime. I expect after four years in office Biden will have allowed more than 10 million people to illegally enter the United States. It is ironic that many Democrats will consider that a failure since they really want an open border where that number would be a lot higher.


I don't recall that specific question being raised during the debates. Are you sure you got the wording right? Perhaps you could provide a link to the video.
While I wait, I might draw your attention to the following article where the positions of each of the candites was broken down:








Immigration: Where 2020 Democratic Candidates Stand On Border Crossings And More


Democrats are unified against President Trump's immigration stances, but many do not have clear positions on specific policies related to border security and immigration levels.




www.npr.org





"Several Democratic candidates want it (illegal border crossings) to be a civil offense, not criminal"
Is this what you are talking about? If it is then you are guilty of mischaracterizing the positions of democrats on the issue and should apologise for attempting to mislead us.

Secretary Alejandro Mayorkas said on Jan 5, 2023:


> I have been to the border nearly twenty times, and I can attest to the steadfast commitment of the DHS workforce to secure our border, enforce our laws, and build safe, orderly, and humane immigration processes under extremely difficult conditions. The challenges I have outlined are straining our capacity and those of our state, local, and NGO partners to manage it. But they have also prompted innovation and collaboration, which we seek to build on today.


Again you have mischaracterised what was said. That is two apologies that you owe us.


----------



## MisterEd51

SeanLaurence said:


> I don't recall that specific question being raised during the debates. Are you sure you got the wording right? Perhaps you could provide a link to the video.
> While I wait, I might draw your attention to the following article where the positions of each of the candites was broken down:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Immigration: Where 2020 Democratic Candidates Stand On Border Crossings And More
> 
> 
> Democrats are unified against President Trump's immigration stances, but many do not have clear positions on specific policies related to border security and immigration levels.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.npr.org
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> "Several Democratic candidates want it (illegal border crossings) to be a civil offense, not criminal"
> Is this what you are talking about? If it is then you are guilty of mischaracterizing the positions of democrats on the issue and should apologise for attempting to mislead us.
> 
> Secretary Alejandro Mayorkas said on Jan 5, 2023:
> 
> Again you have mischaracterised what was said. That is two apologies that you owe us.


If it were a civil offense instead of a criminal offense then all they would have to do is pay a fine and they are home free. So you are saying everyone is welcome to enter the United States just by paying some admission fee? That sounds pretty much like an open border to me.

Mayorkas lied to the American people there is no doubt in that. You want me to just accept his word for it and apologize for not believing him? LOL

You and your other Democrats buddies are the ones that owe me and the rest of the county an apology for the corrupt and deceitful politicians like Mayorkas you helped put in office.


----------



## frozen igloo

SeanLaurence said:


> I don't recall that specific question being raised during the debates. Are you sure you got the wording right? Perhaps you could provide a link to the video.
> While I wait, I might draw your attention to the following article where the positions of each of the candites was broken down:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Immigration: Where 2020 Democratic Candidates Stand On Border Crossings And More
> 
> 
> Democrats are unified against President Trump's immigration stances, but many do not have clear positions on specific policies related to border security and immigration levels.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.npr.org
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> "Several Democratic candidates want it (illegal border crossings) to be a civil offense, not criminal"
> Is this what you are talking about? If it is then you are guilty of mischaracterizing the positions of democrats on the issue and should apologise for attempting to mislead us.
> 
> Secretary Alejandro Mayorkas said on Jan 5, 2023:
> 
> Again you have mischaracterised what was said. That is two apologies that you owe us.


Do you remember operation fast and furious?


----------



## SeanLaurence

frozen igloo said:


> Do you remember operation fast and furious?


What about it? It was an attempt by the Arizona Field Office of the ATF to try to shut down Mexican Drug cartel leaders by selling them guns. It didn't go as planned and the conservatives want to punish the Obama administration for it. Intent is the key thing to look at. Unlike many Trump administration programs, where the intent was to profit, the intent of those involved was to put drug cartel leaders behind bars.


----------



## SeanLaurence

MisterEd51 said:


> If it were a civil offense instead of a criminal offense then all they would have to do is pay a fine and they are home free. So you are saying everyone is welcome to enter the United States just by paying some admission fee? That sounds pretty much like an open border to me.
> 
> Mayorkas lied to the American people there is no doubt in that. You want me to just accept his word for it and apologize for not believing him? LOL
> 
> You and your other Democrats buddies are the ones that owe me and the rest of the county an apology for the corrupt and deceitful politicians like Mayorkas you helped put in office.


I quoted what Mayorkas recently said in a statement. If he said something else in some other statement, you are welcome to cite it. Similarly, if you want to accuse him of lying you will have to back up that allegation as well.

Why should someone be charged as a criminal for having crossed the border and asked for asylum? What good does that do anyone? I think you just don't like brown people.


----------



## frozen igloo

SeanLaurence said:


> What about it? It was an attempt by the Arizona Field Office of the ATF to try to shut down Mexican Drug cartel leaders by selling them guns. It didn't go as planned and the conservatives want to punish the Obama administration for it. Intent is the key thing to look at. Unlike many Trump administration programs, where the intent was to profit, the intent of those involved was to put drug cartel leaders behind bars.


Are you familiar with Eric Holder?


----------



## MisterEd51

SeanLaurence said:


> I quoted what Mayorkas recently said in a statement. If he said something else in some other statement, you are welcome to cite it. Similarly, if you want to accuse him of lying you will have to back up that allegation as well.
> 
> Why should someone be charged as a criminal for having crossed the border and asked for asylum? What good does that do anyone? I think you just don't like brown people.


It is obvious that most people crossing the border are coached and are told to just "ask for asylum" even when it is obvious they don't qualify. They know that once they are in they will never have to leave. Also, only about 10% off the people asking for asylum and go to court are ever granted it. That is only for those that show up to court. Most just disappear and don't even try to argue for asylum because they know they weren't qualified in the first place.

It is despicable to use such a racial slur as "I think you just don't like brown people". You should apologize for that. I have some family members that are Black or Hispanic that would be offended by that allegation also.


----------



## SeanLaurence

MisterEd51 said:


> It is obvious that most people crossing the border are coached and are told to just "ask for asylum" even when it is obvious they don't qualify. They know that once they are in they will never have to leave. Also, only about 10% off the people asking for asylum and go to court are ever granted it. That is only for those that show up to court. Most just disappear and don't even try to argue for asylum because they know they weren't qualified in the first place.
> 
> It is despicable to use such a racial slur as "I think you just don't like brown people". You should apologize for that. I have some family members that are Black or Hispanic that would be offended by that allegation also.


I don't doubt that some people are coached to ask for asylum. So what? As you pointed out, only 10% of asylum seekers are approved. That number should probably be higher, but I understand they need to PROVE that their lives are in peril in their originating country. That does not sound to me as something that is easily proven..



> 88% of all immigrants in immigration court with completed or pending removal cases over the past eleven years attended all of their court hearings.” The analysis of government data also revealed that 95% of nondetained individuals who filed for asylum or other forms of relief from removal attended all of their court hearings over the same time period from 2008 to 2018, the authors said.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> FactChecking Claims About Asylum Grants and Immigration Court Attendance - FactCheck.org
> 
> 
> While discussing ways to quickly determine if people who cross into the U.S. through Mexico are eligible for asylum, Sen. Rob Portman claimed that “only about half of them even show up for their court cases” and “only 15% of them qualify” for asylum. But government statistics aren't that clear-cut.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.factcheck.org


That is nowhere near "Most" Do you have a hard time with facts or are you would you just rather make stuff up because you are too lazy to do research?
Maybe you think watching Tucker Carlson qualifies as research.

And when I use the phrase "I Think", it indicates that it is just my own opinion. If you don't want people thinking you are a racist, try not to be so xenophobic.
I do note that you failed to say that you "liked" or "respected" your family members of colour. You just said you "had" them.


----------



## frozen igloo

SeanLaurence said:


> I don't doubt that some people are coached to ask for asylum. So what? As you pointed out, only 10% of asylum seekers are approved. That number should probably be higher, but I understand they need to PROVE that their lives are in peril in their originating country. That does not sound to me as something that is easily proven..
> 
> 
> 
> That is nowhere near "Most" Do you have a hard time with facts or are you would you just rather make stuff up because you are too lazy to do research?
> Maybe you think watching Tucker Carlson qualifies as research.
> 
> And when I use the phrase "I Think", it indicates that it is just my own opinion. If you don't want people thinking you are a racist, try not to be so xenophobic.
> I do note that you failed to say that you "liked" or "respected" your family members of colour. You just said you "had" them.


liberal buzzword of the day:
*
xenophobic*


----------



## SeanLaurence

frozen igloo said:


> liberal buzzword of the day:
> *xenophobic*


My opinion applies to you and your ilk as well. Did you have to look it up?


----------



## frozen igloo

SeanLaurence said:


> My opinion applies to you and your ilk as well. Did you have to look it up?


Next buzzword he is going to use is probably going to be "grifter"


----------



## valis

MisterEd51 said:


> What does all of this have to do with anything? For your information..in the United States law is based on the Constitution and established law. Immigration is based upon law not some fanciful and wishful thinking by you and your Democrat friends. If you don't like the current law ask your legislative buddies to stop ignoring current law and ask them to change the immigration law to something more agreeable to you.
> 
> I am not a Christian or in any way religious. Last time I looked the 10 Commandments was not in the Constitution.
> 
> BTW, if you payed attention to the the current oath of office just done overnight by Congress you might think otherwise...
> 
> 
> Note these legislatures swore to uphold the Constitution even if it is in conflict with their own personal feeling or religious beliefs. A lot of people especially Democrats for some reason seem to forget that.


The Statue Of Liberty quote starts off 'give us your poor, your huddled masses'. We are all immigrants, my friend. Thats our policy.

You should think on that.


----------



## MisterEd51

valis said:


> The Statue Of Liberty quote starts off 'give us your poor, your huddled masses'. We are all immigrants, my friend. Thats our policy.
> 
> You should think on that.





> Give me your tired, your poor, Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free, The wretched refuse of your teeming shore. Send these, the homeless, tempest-tossed to me, I lift my lamp beside the golden door.


It is is obvious you don't even understand the context of when that was written. Maybe you missed that part when you studied American history as a child.

During the 19th century the United States was growing rapidly. It had a big shortage of cheap labor so encouraged foreigners to come here. That was the purpose of the inscription you quoted. It was a naive time when people thought that there was no limit to to the growth of our country. 

In reality it was a very hard time for the people that immigrated here. Back then there was no government handouts. No support system of any kind.People either worked or starved. Since big companies knew that they exploited this cheap labor and only paid them enough to keep them from starving.

Eventually the expansion of the United States slowed. There was no longer a big need for lots of cheap labor. Labor laws were passed to try to prevent workers from being exploited. Things really changed during Roosevelt's time.Safety nets were enacted to prop people in times of need. It is even worse today. Many people find there is no need to work as much or at all. They are happy to live off the government's generous dime.

Today those words on the Statue of Liberty although lofty are for a different time. They don't apply to the millions of illegal immigrants that cross our border each year. Many of them are given 10s of thousands dollars of free benefits each year with no strings attached. They seem to be much better treated than even the homeless are here. Also, some of them when they commit a crime are not even punished.

You should think on that.


----------



## 2twenty2

CBS Mornings
*Trump claims grounds for "termination" of U.S. Constitution*









Trump claims grounds for "termination" of U.S. Constitution


The former president's latest unfounded claim of "massive fraud" has left fellow Republicans grappling once again with how to respond.




www.cbsnews.com


----------



## SeanLaurence

MisterEd51 said:


> It is is obvious you don't even understand the context of when that was written. Maybe you missed that part when you studied American history as a child.
> 
> During the 19th century the United States was growing rapidly. It had a big shortage of cheap labor so encouraged foreigners to come here. That was the purpose of the inscription you quoted. It was a naive time when people thought that there was no limit to to the growth of our country.
> 
> In reality it was a very hard time for the people that immigrated here. Back then there was no government handouts. No support system of any kind.People either worked or starved. Since big companies knew that they exploited this cheap labor and only paid them enough to keep them from starving.
> 
> Eventually the expansion of the United States slowed. There was no longer a big need for lots of cheap labor. Labor laws were passed to try to prevent workers from being exploited. Things really changed during Roosevelt's time.Safety nets were enacted to prop people in times of need. It is even worse today. Many people find there is no need to work as much or at all. They are happy to live off the government's generous dime.
> 
> Today those words on the Statue of Liberty although lofty are for a different time. They don't apply to the millions of illegal immigrants that cross our border each year. Many of them are given 10s of thousands dollars of free benefits each year with no strings attached. They seem to be much better treated than even the homeless are here. Also, some of them when they commit a crime are not even punished.
> 
> You should think on that.


While "The New Colossus" was written by Emma Lazarus in 1883, it was not cast (not engraved) as a plaque for the Statue of Liberty until 1903. To call the era "naive" is disingenuous. There has always been debate over immigration and what the appropriate levels are. I don't disagree that the necessity of immigration has diminished with time, however, with lower birth-rates, immigration is becoming more important as native born people retire out of the work force.

Yes, the history of the labour movement is a whole other topic.

You seem to misuse the term "illegal immigrants". The term refers to someone who successfully crosses the border without being recorded, or overstays after legally crossing.
Someone who makes a refugee claim is not illegal until after their claim is denied. My understanding is such people are summarily deported. This policy probably costs taxpayers more than allowing them to stay and build on a life that they started while waiting for their hearing.
I don't understand how an illegal immigrant can receive government benefits. Don't you have to show some form of proof of citizenship to do so? Or are you referring to programs like soup kitchens that feed all comers?



> Research on the economic effects of illegal immigration is scant but existing studies suggest that the effects can be positive for the native population, and for public coffers
> 
> 
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Illegal_immigration#U.S._Government


Right now, low unemployment is one of the factors driving inflation. When Business owners can't find workers, they have to offer higher wages to compete. While I think that could be a good thing in terms of lessening wealth inequality, it does mean that stuff is not getting done because there are not enough people to do the work.


----------



## SeanLaurence

frozen igloo said:


> Next buzzword he is going to use is probably going to be "grifter"


No, the next buzzword is "Troll"


----------



## frozen igloo

SeanLaurence said:


> No, the next buzzword is "Troll"


I'm the patriot here, not you. Get it?


----------



## frozen igloo

SeanLaurence said:


> My opinion applies to you and your ilk as well. Did you have to look it up?


What makes you think I'm that?

Again, are you familiar with Eric Holder? Did you know he ran operation fast and furious?


----------



## SeanLaurence

frozen igloo said:


> Again, are you familiar with Eric Holder? Did you know he ran operation fast and furious?


"Attorney general found to have no prior knowledge of the operation, but two other senior officials leave amid criticisms"








Justice department Fast and Furious investigation clears Eric Holder


Attorney general found to have no prior knowledge of the operation, but two other senior officials leave amid criticisms




www.theguardian.com





I can only go by what I read in reputable newspapers.
This is a Trump Thread. We should be talking about the legal peril he faces. 
I will leave the heavy lifting to Jack Smith.


----------



## frozen igloo

SeanLaurence said:


> "Attorney general found to have no prior knowledge of the operation, but two other senior officials leave amid criticisms"
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Justice department Fast and Furious investigation clears Eric Holder
> 
> 
> Attorney general found to have no prior knowledge of the operation, but two other senior officials leave amid criticisms
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.theguardian.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I can only go by what I read in reputable newspapers.
> This is a Trump Thread. We should be talking about the legal peril he faces.
> I will leave the heavy lifting to Jack Smith.


I'll just leave this here. And it is related because our discussion was regarding the southern border.
You do realize a border patrol agent was murdered with a weapon confiscated by holders fast and furious, right?


----------



## SeanLaurence

frozen igloo said:


> I'm the patriot here, not you. Get it?


Why is your patriotism relevant? 
Are you suggesting that I am not patriotic? 
Is Patriotism even a good thing? 
Are you uncritical of your country to the point where flaws are not addressed?


----------



## frozen igloo

SeanLaurence said:


> "Attorney general found to have no prior knowledge of the operation, but two other senior officials leave amid criticisms"
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Justice department Fast and Furious investigation clears Eric Holder
> 
> 
> Attorney general found to have no prior knowledge of the operation, but two other senior officials leave amid criticisms
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.theguardian.com


How confident are you, really? Considering the head of the Justice Department is Eric Holder, would you really let a criminal investigate himself and accept what he says as "truth"?



> The report, published on Wednesday, recommended disciplinary action against 14 officials, including the head of the justice department's criminal division, Assistant Attorney General Lanny Breuer º an Obama administration appointee.


That's funny. So the assistant DA knew all about Fand F, but the Attorney General Of the United States had his head in the sand? Do they like never communicate? DAs and assistant DAs? Don't they usually collaborate, and doesn't the assistant DA do the DAs bidding?


----------



## SeanLaurence

frozen igloo said:


> I'll just leave this here. And it is related because our discussion was regarding the southern border.
> You do realize a border patrol agent was murdered with a weapon confiscated by holders fast and furious, right?


What Holder actually said:


> "What we need to do is change the way in which people think about guns, especially young people, and make it something that’s not cool, that it’s not acceptable, it’s not hip to carry a gun anymore, in the way in which we changed our attitudes about cigarettes, We have to be repetitive about this. It’s not enough to have a catchy ad on a Monday and then only do it Monday. We need to do this every day of the week, and just really brainwash people into thinking about guns in a vastly different way."


This was a statement made 14 years before he became Attorney General, in 1995. 
I find the word "brainwash" to be hyperbolic. But I do understand the context. If the 2A gives every american the right to keep and bear arms (I can make a good case that it doesn't, but that is not in line with the current SCOTUS decisions) then the best way to reduce gun violence is to make gun culture less of a thing. The NRA spends loads of money promoting guns and gun culture. Just like advertising anything else, it works. People are sheep. Especially when it comes to things they like. Like firing off a few rounds at the range and the feeling of power that it gives them. 
Banning cigarette advertising was an effective means to *REDUCE *smoking rates. That is what is being proposed here.This strategy does not harm anyone, nordoes it infringe on any rights.








PolitiFact - Did former Attorney General Eric Holder say he viewed his mission as 'brainwashing' against guns?


During the Republican presidential debate in North Charleston, S.C., Sen. Ted Cruz, R-Texas, re-litigated the background




www.politifact.com


----------



## frozen igloo

SeanLaurence said:


> Why is your patriotism relevant?
> Are you suggesting that I am not patriotic?
> Is Patriotism even a good thing?
> Are you uncritical of your country to the point where flaws are not addressed?


You are DEFINITELY NOT a patriot. 

Yes, you want to destroy the nation by stripping away our freedoms and our constitutional rights. Even if you have no personal knowledge or action to further this cause, you are still *culpable* due to your allegiance to the liberal left and democratic politicians. And your embrace of their policy. 

Are you for or against Trump?


----------



## frozen igloo

SeanLaurence said:


> What Holder actually said:
> 
> This was a statement made 14 years before he became Attorney General, in 1995.
> I find the word "brainwash" to be hyperbolic. But I do understand the context. If the 2A gives every american the right to keep and bear arms (I can make a good case that it doesn't, but that is not in line with the current SCOTUS decisions) then the best way to reduce gun violence is to make gun culture less of a thing. The NRA spends loads of money promoting guns and gun culture. Just like advertising anything else, it works. People are sheep. Especially when it comes to things they like. Like firing off a few rounds at the range and the feeling of power that it gives them.
> Banning cigarette advertising was an effective means to *REDUCE *smoking rates. That is what is being proposed here.This strategy does not harm anyone, nordoes it infringe on any rights.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> PolitiFact - Did former Attorney General Eric Holder say he viewed his mission as 'brainwashing' against guns?
> 
> 
> During the Republican presidential debate in North Charleston, S.C., Sen. Ted Cruz, R-Texas, re-litigated the background
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.politifact.com


Junk fact checking sites aside, let's cut right to the chase. What is your definition of brainwashing?


----------



## frozen igloo

SeanLaurence said:


> What Holder actually said:


The quote I posted is WORD FOR WORD of what Holder said.


----------



## SeanLaurence

frozen igloo said:


> You are DEFINITELY NOT a patriot.
> 
> Yes, you want to destroy the nation by stripping away our freedoms and our constitutional rights. Even if you have no personal knowledge or action to further this cause, you are still *culpable* due to your allegiance to the liberal left and democratic politicians. And your embrace of their policy.
> 
> Are you for or against Trump?


Wut?
When have I ever suggested "stripping away constitutional rights or freedoms "?
I think that something should be done about the 2A because as it stands it is bad law.
I also think that the electoral college should be discarded and presidents should be chosen by a simple popular vote.
I don't have allegiance to the "liberal left" and if I did, that would not make me any less a patriot. 
Democrats are not the enemy. They have different ideas than you do. If you can't find something in their policies that you agree with, then maybe you are voting for a party instead of looking at policies.


----------



## SeanLaurence

frozen igloo said:


> The quote I posted is WORD FOR WORD of what Holder said.


I provided more context. I also agreed that "brainwashed" was an unfortunate choice of words. Are you really going to take that one word, uttered 27 years ago on a single occasion, and build a case that democrats want to brainwash the nation? Please!


----------



## SeanLaurence

frozen igloo said:


> How confident are you, really? Considering the head of the Justice Department is Eric Holder, would you really let a criminal investigate himself and accept what he says as "truth"?
> 
> That's funny. So the assistant DA knew all about Fand F, but the Attorney General Of the United States had his head in the sand? Do they like never communicate? DAs and assistant DAs? Don't they usually collaborate, and doesn't the assistant DA do the DAs bidding?


Honestly, I didn't pay much attention to the scandal at the time. The GOP tries to make mountains out of molehills, like the Whitewater scandal, the Bill Clinton Impeachment, Bengazi, and Hillary's emails. At the end of the day, they all end up going nowhere. Is it because Dems have better lawyers? 

The F&F operation was not an original idea, it had been done before. It was executed in good faith. Things went wrong. People were disciplined. 
Shall we talk about how many more Americans died of Covid because of Trump's mishandling of the pandemic? If he had done a better job more lives around the world might have been saved. The US has always been a leader in pandemic research and preparedness. Why did Trump do such a bad job?


----------



## valis

frozen igloo said:


> I'm the patriot here, not you. Get it?


You are, in my opinion, at best a fair weather fan. You may be patriotic, and good for you, but your patriotism is not mine. Again, totally my opinion, but your patriotism is fed by hate and discrimination.

You forget we all immigrated here.


----------



## valis

frozen igloo said:


> Are you for or against Trump?


Agin. He is a racist, homophobic, misogynist. That alone makes me dislike him heavily. Add his business dealings (how many bankruptcies again?), the fact that he was given everything from jump and still managed to fudge it up, his unbelievable ego, and how he ignores news as fake news...that sorta sealed the deal. I wasnt a fan but he was duly elected, so I gave him a chance.

The very fact that he was duly elected speaks VOLUMES about the general public. 

IMO he runs on hate and fear.


----------



## frozen igloo

SeanLaurence said:


> I provided more context. I also agreed that "brainwashed" was an unfortunate choice of words. Are you really going to take that one word, uttered 27 years ago on a single occasion, and build a case that democrats want to brainwash the nation? Please!


Its not an unfortunate choice of words, it's damning... that's why your only out is to claim the word doesn't mean what we think it means. 



SeanLaurence said:


> Wut?
> When have I ever suggested "stripping away constitutional rights or freedoms "?
> I think that something should be done about the 2A because as it stands it is bad law.
> I also think that the electoral college should be discarded and presidents should be chosen by a simple popular vote.
> I don't have allegiance to the "liberal left" and if I did, that would not make me any less a patriot.
> Democrats are not the enemy. They have different ideas than you do. If you can't find something in their policies that you agree with, then maybe you are voting for a party instead of looking at policies.


So the democrats like to murder unborn children, you think that's okay? The democratically controlled cities in our nation lead the way in murder, crime and drug abuse. Democrats fought tooth and nail to prevent trump from building the wall. You think American's don't deserve proper security at the southern border? That's way far out of the realm of being a patriot, in fact that makes you exactly the opposite, as I already alluded too.


----------



## frozen igloo

SeanLaurence said:


> I provided more context. I also agreed that "brainwashed" was an unfortunate choice of words. Are you really going to take that one word, uttered 27 years ago on a single occasion, and build a case that democrats want to brainwash the nation? Please!


The context became clear when a Border Patrol officer was killed with guns given to the cartels by holder/obama.
Do you really think we should be arming the enemy?


----------



## frozen igloo

SeanLaurence said:


> It was executed in good faith. Things went wrong. People were disciplined.


And holder, that slimy snake had no knowledge of the operation, right? 

You call giving crate after crate of weapons to the drug cartels "executed in good faith?"


----------



## frozen igloo

SeanLaurence said:


> I provided more context. I also agreed that "brainwashed" was an unfortunate choice of words. Are you really going to take that one word, uttered 27 years ago on a single occasion, and build a case that democrats want to brainwash the nation? Please!


It's clear they've got you duped.


----------



## frozen igloo

valis said:


> You are, in my opinion, at best a fair weather fan. You may be patriotic, and good for you, but your patriotism is not mine. Again, totally my opinion, but your patriotism is fed by hate and discrimination.
> 
> You forget we all immigrated here.


You do realize the democratic party is the party of the KKK? Right?


----------



## SeanLaurence

frozen igloo said:


> Its not an unfortunate choice of words, it's damning... that's why your only out is to claim the word doesn't mean what we think it means.


You would think if it was so damming then someone else might care.



> So the democrats like to murder unborn children, you think that's okay? The democratically controlled cities in our nation lead the way in murder, crime and drug abuse. Democrats fought tooth and nail to prevent trump from building the wall. You think American's don't deserve proper security at the southern border? That's way far out of the realm of being a patriot, in fact that makes you exactly the opposite, as I already alluded too.


Here I go having to break the news to you: Look at the 14A. It begins "All persons born or naturalized...". That is your constitution baby. No-one is a person with rights until after your are born. Any rights afforded to fetuses are a courtesy granted by compassionate people that think they deserve some consideration.

Ben Franklin himself published a recipe in a math textbook on how to induce an abortion. Alito was incorrect and wrong in his decision. There has been abortions afforded to pregnant people throughout the history of the nation.

Republican cities are just as crime ridden as Democrat run cities. Look it up.

Democrats fought tooth and nail to prevent Trump from building the wall because it is a bad idea. It is ineffective, expensive,environmentally harmful, and bad for the environment. It does gather votes from the weak minded. Your question is a non sequitur. To "deserve" proper security implies that security is required. There are better and cheaper ways of managing border crossings. Despite my efforts to convince you otherwise, you seem to believe that people entering the US over the southern border is a bad thing worth spending 85% of $16 billion / year to manage.


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## SeanLaurence

frozen igloo said:


> The context became clear when a Border Patrol officer was killed with guns given to the cartels by holder/obama.
> Do you really think we should be arming the enemy?


Have you heard of "Operation Wide Receiver"? Same idea, but this one was run under Bush jr. That was the first time the ATF ran this kind of operation. F&F was just repeating what was already done before.


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## SeanLaurence

frozen igloo said:


> It's clear they've got you duped.


Lets try this argument then: You say it was Holder (a Democrat) that wanted to do some brainwashing. Naturally they would target rival Republican voters with any brainwashing scheme. That sounds like you. Were you brainwashed with anti gun propaganda? It doesn't sound like it. Why not?


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## SeanLaurence

frozen igloo said:


> You do realize the democratic party is the party of the KKK? Right?


I do realise that the Democratic party *was* the party of the KKK, up until the parties switched platforms in the early part of the 20th century. 
Since then it has been the Democrats that have led the way in extending civil rights and voting rights to minority communities. 
Did you not know this or are you just trying to gaslight us? It is a common talking point made by on social media. I think it originates from russian misinformation agencies that are trying to sow discord amongst americans. It seems to have had an effect on you.


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## frozen igloo

SeanLaurence said:


> they deserve some consideration.


Are you happy someone had compassion for you? What gives, you don't want to pay it forward?
That's really selfish.


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## frozen igloo

SeanLaurence said:


> You would think if it was so damming then someone else might care.


Only congressmen and high ranking government officials.
Listen to Holder dodge the pressing questions of Darrel Issa.






Why isn't Holder cooperating if he has nothing to hide?


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## SeanLaurence

frozen igloo said:


> Are you happy someone had compassion for you? What gives, you don't want to pay it forward?
> That's really selfish.


That is an emotional argument, and I am not swayed by it. 
It is not unlawful for Canadians to receive or perform abortions at any stage of a pregnancy. However, past 24 weeks it becomes extremely difficult to find someone who will perform the procedure. Late term abortions are only done for really good reasons. 
Conservative state governments that restrict abortion access are going to find themselves voted out of office. We have already seen them underperform in the 2022 midterms.


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## SeanLaurence

frozen igloo said:


> Only congressmen and high ranking government officials.
> Listen to Holder dodge the pressing questions of Darrel Issa.
> 
> Why isn't Holder cooperating if he has nothing to hide?


The impression I got from watching the video was that Darrell Issa was an ass. 
Not being familiar with the man, I looked him up. According to his Wikipedia page, he was accused of insurance fraud when his business burned down in a suspicious fire where he had recently increased insurance level on the property and removed the business's computer from the premises before hand.
He also foreclosed on his boss's electronics business, that he was subsequently able to build into a profitable enterprise.
Twice divorced.
He ran in deep red districts. Once he ran unopposed.
He is ranked as one of the richest American politicians, slightly above Arnold Schwarzenegger.
Talk about a slimey snake.

I can get behind some of his policies that he championed in congress, but not all of them.

I got the impression that Holder was cooperating. Issa seemed to be on a fishing expedition. Now it could be that Holder outclassed Issa as a lawyer. He has no obligation to incriminate himself. I don't know what the facts are. I do know that you are oversimplifying with statements like "Do you really think we should be arming the enemy". Clearly Issa did not make a case against him. That is good news for Issa because no-one ever made an arson case against him.


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## trekguy

frozen igloo said:


> You are DEFINITELY NOT a patriot.
> 
> Yes, you want to destroy the nation by stripping away our freedoms and our constitutional rights. Even if you have no personal knowledge or action to further this cause, you are still *culpable* due to your allegiance to the liberal left and democratic politicians. And your embrace of their policy.
> 
> Are you for or against Trump?


What freedoms and rights are being stripped away? What policies?

Against. Trump is going to jail for what he has done. He's a traitor, and by your logic, so are you then, I guess.


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## MisterEd51

trekguy said:


> What freedoms and rights are being stripped away? What policies?
> 
> Against. Trump is going to jail for what he has done. He's a traitor, and by your logic, so are you then, I guess.


How about all the Democrats who impeached Trump for the made up Russian collusion? They all knew it was BS and went forward anyways. They all need to be arrested and go to jail for their traitorous act. As far as I'm concerned anyone that supported them doing this is a traitor also. BTW, both Obama and Biden knew about this because all this was started in 2015 or 2016 when they were in still office. I guess that makes them traitors also.


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## SeanLaurence

MisterEd51 said:


> How about all the Democrats who impeached Trump for the made up Russian collusion? They all knew it was BS and went forward anyways. They all need to be arrested and go to jail for their traitorous act. As far as I'm concerned anyone that supported them doing this is a traitor also. BTW, both Obama and Biden knew about this because all this was started in 2015 or 2016 when they were in still office. I guess that makes them traitors also.


You must have forgotten what you read in the Mueller report.
Volume 1:
The Mueller report found that the Russian government "interfered in the 2016 presidential election in sweeping and systematic fashion" and "violated U.S. criminal law". The report relayed two methods by which Russia attempted to influence the election:
The first method of Russian interference was done through the Internet Research Agency (IRA), waging "a social media campaign that favored presidential candidate Donald J. Trump and disparaged presidential candidate Hillary Clinton".
The second method of Russian interference saw the Russian military intelligence agency GRU hacking into email accounts owned by volunteers and employees of the Clinton presidential campaign, including that of campaign chairman John Podesta, and also hacking into "the computer networks of the Democratic Congressional Campaign Committee (DCCC) and the Democratic National Committee (DNC)". As a result, the GRU obtained hundreds of thousands of hacked documents, and the GRU proceeded by arranging releases of damaging hacked material via the WikiLeaks organization and also GRU's false personas "DCLeaks" and "Guccifer 2.0"

The investigation found there were at least 170 contacts between Trump or 18 of his associates with Russian nationals and WikiLeaks, or their intermediaries, though the contacts were insufficient to show an illegal conspiracy

Volume II Details potential instances of obstruction of justice

In early May 2019, more than 1,000 former federal prosecutors who had served under both Republican and Democratic administrations published a statement entitled "Statement by Former Federal Prosecutors" on Medium. They declared:
Each of us believes that the conduct of President Trump described in Special Counsel Robert Mueller's report would, in the case of any other person not covered by the Office of Legal Counsel policy against indicting a sitting President, result in multiple felony charges for obstruction of justice


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mueller_report



It is very difficult to prove collusion in a case where all parties involved refuted to testify. Paul Manafort and Roger Stone served jail time rather than testifying against Trump. There very very probably was collusion. Trump will be tried on simpler cases.


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## MisterEd51

SeanLaurence said:


> You must have forgotten what you read in the Mueller report.
> Volume 1:
> The Mueller report found that the Russian government "interfered in the 2016 presidential election in sweeping and systematic fashion" and "violated U.S. criminal law". The report relayed two methods by which Russia attempted to influence the election:
> The first method of Russian interference was done through the Internet Research Agency (IRA), waging "a social media campaign that favored presidential candidate Donald J. Trump and disparaged presidential candidate Hillary Clinton".
> The second method of Russian interference saw the Russian military intelligence agency GRU hacking into email accounts owned by volunteers and employees of the Clinton presidential campaign, including that of campaign chairman John Podesta, and also hacking into "the computer networks of the Democratic Congressional Campaign Committee (DCCC) and the Democratic National Committee (DNC)". As a result, the GRU obtained hundreds of thousands of hacked documents, and the GRU proceeded by arranging releases of damaging hacked material via the WikiLeaks organization and also GRU's false personas "DCLeaks" and "Guccifer 2.0"
> 
> The investigation found there were at least 170 contacts between Trump or 18 of his associates with Russian nationals and WikiLeaks, or their intermediaries, though the contacts were insufficient to show an illegal conspiracy
> 
> Volume II Details potential instances of obstruction of justice
> 
> In early May 2019, more than 1,000 former federal prosecutors who had served under both Republican and Democratic administrations published a statement entitled "Statement by Former Federal Prosecutors" on Medium. They declared:
> Each of us believes that the conduct of President Trump described in Special Counsel Robert Mueller's report would, in the case of any other person not covered by the Office of Legal Counsel policy against indicting a sitting President, result in multiple felony charges for obstruction of justice
> 
> 
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mueller_report
> 
> 
> 
> It is very difficult to prove collusion in a case where all parties involved refuted to testify. Paul Manafort and Roger Stone served jail time rather than testifying against Trump. There very very probably was collusion. Trump will be tried on simpler cases.


You try to obfuscate the truth with a bunch of irrelevant garbage. The fact is that the Democrat's claim that Trump colluded with Russians was a lie. The so called evidence came from the Steele dossier that was paid for by Hillary Clinton on behalf of the Democrat party. It was then passed on to the FBI who used it even though none of it was ever verified. The FBI then went to the FISA court and got surveillance on Trump and others. Note that the FBI in their FISA application said the information in the Steele dossier was verified. Another lie. The Democrats have proved time and time again that truth doesn't matter ran with this lie and impeached Trump for it. If want to believe this lie then too bad for you. That only proves you are good Democrat who believes that the "end justifies the means". In other words you believe you are free to lie and cheat to get what you want.


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## SeanLaurence

MisterEd51 said:


> You try to obfuscate the truth with a bunch of irrelevant garbage. The fact is that the Democrat's claim that Trump colluded with Russians was a lie. The so called evidence came from the Steele dossier that was paid for by Hillary Clinton on behalf of the Democrat party. It was then passed on to the FBI who used it even though none of it was ever verified. The FBI then went to the FISA court and got surveillance on Trump and others. Note that the FBI in their FISA application said the information in the Steele dossier was verified. Another lie. The Democrats have proved time and time again that truth doesn't matter ran with this lie and impeached Trump for it. If want to believe this lie then too bad for you. That only proves you are good Democrat who believes that the "end justifies the means". In other words you believe you are free to lie and cheat to get what you want.


How about we look at the most obvious evidence of collusion. The ask that was done in public:
“Russia, if you’re listening — I hope you are able to find the 30,000 emails that are missing. I think you will probably be rewarded mightily by our press. Let’s see if that happens.”
The thing is, they were listening. and they acted on that request. They did hack the DNC in the days after he made that request.

There were other communications with Russians done in private by Manafort and Steel, but those conversations were not recorded and they declined to incriminate themselves.

If you read the report yourself, and not Barr's deliberately misleading summary, you would see that Mueller did NOT EXONERATE HIM.








Trump was not exonerated by my report, Robert Mueller tells Congress


The US president criticises Mr Mueller's testimony to Congress and says it is a "great day for me".



www.bbc.com


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## MisterEd51

SeanLaurence said:


> How about we look at the most obvious evidence of collusion. The ask that was done in public:
> “Russia, if you’re listening — I hope you are able to find the 30,000 emails that are missing. I think you will probably be rewarded mightily by our press. Let’s see if that happens.”
> The thing is, they were listening. and they acted on that request. They did hack the DNC in the days after he made that request.
> 
> There were other communications with Russians done in private by Manafort and Steel, but those conversations were not recorded and they declined to incriminate themselves.
> 
> If you read the report yourself, and not Barr's deliberately misleading summary, you would see that Mueller did NOT EXONERATE HIM.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Trump was not exonerated by my report, Robert Mueller tells Congress
> 
> 
> The US president criticises Mr Mueller's testimony to Congress and says it is a "great day for me".
> 
> 
> 
> www.bbc.com


I thought in the United States you were considerate innocent unless you were proven guilty? Oh, I forgot you are a Democrat who only thinks it enough to make the allegation. Proof is not necessary.


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## SeanLaurence

MisterEd51 said:


> The so called evidence came from the Steele dossier that was paid for by Hillary Clinton on behalf of the Democrat party


This is only half true. The Dossier was initially commissioned In October of 2015 by The Washington Free Beacon, and was primarily funded by Republican donor Paul Singer.
It wasn't until June of 2016 that the Clinton campaign started indirectly funding the research.



> It was then passed on to the FBI who used it even though none of it was ever verified. The FBI then went to the FISA court and got surveillance on Trump and others.


It was information about George Papadopoulos, a Trump campaign foreign policy adviser, and unrealated to the dossier that prompted the FBI investigation in July 2016. 



> Note that the FBI in their FISA application said the information in the Steele dossier was verified. Another lie.


There were quite a lot of allegations in the dossier that were true:


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steele_dossier#Veracity_and_corroboration_status_of_specific_allegations





> The Democrats have proved time and time again that truth doesn't matter ran with this lie and impeached Trump for it. If want to believe this lie then too bad for you. That only proves you are good Democrat who believes that the "end justifies the means". In other words you believe you are free to lie and cheat to get what you want.


What part of the Steel Dossier do you think was a lie?
The Kremlin had been cultivating Trump for "at least five years".?
I don't have a problem believing that. We knew he hosted beauty pageants in Moscow, and we know that the KGB ran such programs to cultivate influential people. When he was in office he had nothing bad to say about Russia or Putin.
Russian assistance to the Trump campaign? See part I of the Mueller report.

The only thing that is probably false in the report is the allegations of "Golden Showers". I find such stories to be the most salacious and the least relevant.


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## SeanLaurence

MisterEd51 said:


> I thought in the United States you were considerate innocent unless you were proven guilty? Oh, I forgot you are a Democrat who only thinks it enough to make the allegation. Proof is not necessary.


There is loads of proof. Michael Coen went to jail over the payoff of Stephanie Clifford. If Trump was not in office, the evidence against him in the same matter was as compelling if not more so, as he ordered the payments. If it were not for the OLC memo he would have gone to jail as well.
Mueller said in his testimony that Trump can be indicted after he leaves office.


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## Cookiegal

The questions posted in the intial thread when it was originally presented were as follows:


Tabvla said:


> Q1. How many days will Trump serve as US President?
> Q2. For what reason will his presidency be ended?


Since we already know the answer to both of these questions it's time to put it to bed so I'm closing this thread.


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