# Is It Cheating Or Is It Collaboration?



## RootbeaR (Dec 9, 2006)

"A few years back, we had an interesting discussion around the idea that many students might not view using modern technology to share answers as "cheating" so much as they would view it as wikipedia-like collaboration. I thought this was an interesting observation, since I'd never really thought of it that way. Someone who ought to remain anonymous alerts me to a discussion of a recent study on student "cheating" on exams via mobile phones and similar technology, which found, not only that lots of kids do it, but that they don't think it's wrong. In the comments to that post, there's a fascinating comment by Ryan Scott that again highlights the point about collaboration:

The premise of memorization is the problem here. What's far more important than memorizing some formulas is knowing where to find them and how to apply them.

In NO industry is collaboration considered cheating. Only in SCHOOL is this a problem. What are we teaching our kids?"
http://www.techdirt.com/articles/20090719/0323525592.shtml


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## 1002richards (Jan 29, 2006)

It's an interesting debate. Collaborating at school on course work and projects is often encouraged but collaborating on exam papers which are designed to test an individual's knowledge is different.

If one were to apply to University or for a job with an employer, one would apply as an individual not as a team. 

The recruiter would look at the individual's paper qualifications, but how would the recruiter evaluate that candidate's team-working and collaboration abilities from them alone?

A different or parallel system of qualifications would help to encourage (appropriate) collaboration or team-working skills.


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## RootbeaR (Dec 9, 2006)

1002richards said:


> It's an interesting debate. Collaborating at school on course work and projects is often encouraged but collaborating on exam papers which are designed to test an individual's knowledge is different.
> 
> If one were to apply to University or for a job with an employer, one would apply as an individual not as a team.
> 
> ...


:up:

I didn't post this with the thought of debating it but if others would like to or a mod wants to move it to Cd, then I am all for it.


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## 1002richards (Jan 29, 2006)

No, I meant 'debate' in the wider sense. Academics, researchers employers et al.
As your link mentions, it's no longer a case of numerous students learning a list of dates by rote.

Sorry for causing confusion ... it's one of my middle names!!


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## JohnWill (Oct 19, 2002)

It is an interesting comment. Years ago, when I worked for IBM, I was one of their second level troubleshooters. I was called when the first team had spent hours and had not resolved the issue. Of course, being pretty young, I was frequently questioned how I knew so much about the systems. I told them the secret wasn't knowing everything, but knowing where to find the information.  It didn't hurt that I'm a very fast reader...

I guess that's still true today.


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## lotuseclat79 (Sep 12, 2003)

In a sense it could well be collaborating to cheat, and not either cheating or collaborating by itself. The students should get an A for teamwork, and (assuming a pass/fail grading system), get a pass if everyone on the team gets the right answer, otherwise pa-dunk-a-dunk for not knowing how to solve the problem which gets a wrong answer every time.

What each student needs to know is that the team will depend on him to do his job and if he fails, the team will fail - in the future. Therefore, each student should do her/his best to know all about how to solve the problem so he/she won't be dependent on anyone but her/his self - then each person adds additional value to the team.

Industry is very different than the Ivory Tower - book learning approach. Each student needs to be able to meet the minimum standard to solve problems on their own - the real world is a lot more harsh than the classroom. If you always rely on someone else to solve your problems, then you will never become independently able to solve problems on your own.

Collaboration in industry is usually between peers that have earned the respect due. When someone fails the result is usually a layoff for cause. Welcome to the real world kiddies!

-- Tom


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## Mr. Newton (Aug 26, 2006)

The last two short paragraphs say it all.I agree.It was almost an Eureka moment reading that.


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## Ent (Apr 11, 2009)

Not to mention the fact that the collaboration on which the modern world is founded isn't accidental. It's organized by managers who want to know they've got a running team rather than two right feet. If somebody earns the wrong qualification they WILL be put in the wrong team and the wrong place in the team. Teamwork in school starts with watching for who knows what, and people trust results. But teamwork in the workplace starts with who has what certificate--so if somebody else gives you that, you're cheating the company, their customers, the one-time mentor whose job you've pinched... everybody.


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## lotuseclat79 (Sep 12, 2003)

Hi Ent,

Teamwork in the workplace does not depend on a piece of paper (certificate). It depends on what you know, your experience at solving problems, sharing ideas with others, and helping others around you. Long-in-the-teeth mentors help the less experienced as long as they demonstrate that they have talent.

The best advice I was ever given was - make it happen (on your own) - the consequence of which is that others will follow.

The best advice I ever took of my own was never to get sucked into the beliefs of other students - and check things out independently for myself. It was only then that I started to apply myself as a student and amazed not only myself, and my parents, but the individuals that whose advice if I had followed otherwise - called me crazy for the workload they thought was not only impossible (for them maybe), but scary.

-- Tom


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## lotuseclat79 (Sep 12, 2003)

Ants More Rational Than Humans?

Ants don't cheat - they use the wisdom of the collective, so individuals (in terms of failure) don't screw up the collective - i.e. minimize the risk that an individual makes a mistake.

Ah, reminds me of "The Borg"! Where is the creative insight of the individual? Flushed by the collective it would appear.

-- Tom


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## RootbeaR (Dec 9, 2006)

""It is hard to say. But it's at least worth entertaining the possibility that some strategic limitation on individual knowledge could improve the performance of a large and complex group that is trying to accomplish something collectively," Pratt says.
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2009/07/090724144524.htm

Which is why the **AA's want to control the internet and governments are going along.
$$$$


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## xico (Jun 29, 2002)

Seems like we're teaching them to cheat.  It's trickle down capitalist ethics. 

Why not? Goldman Sachs, etc., got huge (LOL) rewards for mucking up the system.
And banks are cashing in on "superior technology". 

Shouldn't all of us play by the same rules?

I think of the pizza place that advertized "real" cheese on their pizzas. LOL That was the name of the cheese.  Unhappy? Business is doing that all the time in varying degrees. Check out our labels--if you can read them without a friggin microscope. "Natural Flavors" is a cover for MSG. etc.


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## lotuseclat79 (Sep 12, 2003)

Epidemic of student cheating can be cured with changes in classroom goals.

*Schools have the ability to drastically reduce cheating among their students - all they need to do is follow the relatively simple and inexpensive solutions suggested by research.*

-- Tom


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## slurpee55 (Oct 20, 2004)

lotuseclat79 said:


> Epidemic of student cheating can be cured with changes in classroom goals.
> 
> *Schools have the ability to drastically reduce cheating among their students - all they need to do is follow the relatively simple and inexpensive solutions suggested by research.*
> 
> -- Tom


Oddly, what they are suggesting is that the class, led by the teacher, collaborate in learning in general, with far less emphasis put on tests and therefore much less reason for students to cheat....


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