# Is PayPal Secure?



## OldLadyWho

Not sure if I've put this question in the right forum, or if it's even an appropriate question for TSG. But it's worth a try. 

I'm one of 3 partners in a small publishing business. We hired someone to put up our website this week, and I had understood that we would have a secure area to take credit cards for sales. 

I just found out today that they are only setting up a PayPal option. My heart sunk (sank?). 

I've never used PayPal, but remember reading a few times that they have had serious security problems. I know a few people who say they won't use PayPal at all.

Found a few articles on the Internet, but it's all a little confusing and worrisome.

Does anyone here have experience using Paypal on their own websites? Have your customers had any problems or complaints? Are there things we should ask about before we set the account up?

Any thoughts or advice from those who have dealt with PayPal on a business basis would be very appreciated. 

Thanks, OLW


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## Trooper_fan

Paypal wiped out my business account to the tune of almost £4,000 and wou;dn't pay it back. I know other people who have been scammed and had their accounts frozen so me personally I wouldn't touch them with a bargepole.

PayPal Sucks


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## OldLadyWho

Yikes... 

Not good. Thanks for sharing that. How long ago did that happen? 

My partners seem quite happy with the PayPal idea, and mine was the only dissenting voice. I hoped to ease my mind by finding out more, but it may just scare me more. 

Anyone else have experiences as a web based business using PayPal? I've been Googling on my own too, if I'm going to present my partners with my fears & doubts, I figured I should have some information to back them up with. 

To be honest, I was hoping NOT to come up with anything. I'd hoped that the problems were old news and that things have changed at PayPal.

Anyway, thanks for posting, it's very appreciated. OLW


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## buddhafabio

they are as secure as you are. i say that because, alot of people have lost money because scammers send fake emails to peoples addresses. saying to update account info. then they gladly punch it in and bingo the scammers have that account.


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## SNBLAPER27

My computor is 2 years old. Getting slower, and slower. How do I clean it up.
snblaper Thank you!


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## OldLadyWho

That's an excellent "heads up" observation. I am amazed at the amount of folks who still don't see the dangers out there. 

I like to think I'm aware of security with my own little studio network, but my partners generally look at me with blank expressions if I mention things like that. They tend to leave the "boring" computer stuff to me (which is rather scary.)

Anyway. I can't say I'm very informed on how to make sure our business web site is secure. I don't know the web master well enough to know if she is good at security. 

I'm not even sure of what questions to ask. In fact, when I've raised the issue before, everyone just smiles and says, "Yes, it's secure", without telling me why they think it is. I hate not even knowing what to look for. 

Are there any specific things we need ask the company that's hosting our domain, to find out how they handle security? 

I worry terribly about being such babes in the woods with this. If we get skunked ourselves it's one thing, we'll just learn a hard lesson...but I sure don't want to do anything to harm our customers...(I'm thinkin' it could be bad for business) 

OLW


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## Maggz

I use paypal for many online transactions and im yet to lose anything. I use it on only sites I trust or have a good privacy policy. Since I dont have a credit card it comes in really really handy  I also use it as my primary payment method at venkee.com (and only)


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## OldLadyWho

Thank you Maggz, I'm glad to hear your experience. I hadn't thought about it before, but you're right. We really do need to post our own privacy policy up front, & very prominantly, on our web site for our customers. 

I think my concern was if PayPal was true to THEIR privacy policy, such as it is. I've spent the afternoon reading their contract. I've also read a lot of anti-PayPal information today. whew! 

I'm thinking we can use them to get started, but should also keep our eyes out for alternative methods of conducting sales after we've grown a little. Hopefully we won't have to stay with PayPal for too long. 

In the meantime we'll just pay very close attention to how they deal with things. I've heard their customer service leaves a lot to be desired. Even people who like them have commented on the mediocre support. Hopefully we'll have no problems while we're using them. 

Thanks to all that have replied to this thread...It's been very helpful to hear personal experiences. 

(I'm going to cruise on over to Venkee now, and see what it's all about.) Thanks Maggs!

OLW


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## OldLadyWho

Maggz, I just dropped by your Venkee website. Now I have questions. 

How long have you been using Paypal? And, do you have any portfolios, or examples of your graphics work? 

OLW


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## Anne Troy

I have been using paypal for about 3 years now. I have NEVER had any problems at all. The only people I know that did have problems were people whose morals I would question anyway; no offense to the person who posted above stating they had difficulty.

If things would ever get even remotely messy with a job I'm doing, I'd just move to paper check. I wouldn't use paypal for big money either tho...like more than $500 per transaction.

My husband and I also do web graphics/web development/Office development. Here's two works-in-progress: www.vbaexpress.com (mine, needs new menu buttons) and www.cdelly.com (client sample in the thick of development; still needs pictures; the property map will have programming that makes information about specific property lots--like square feet--come up when you hover over it--it's a very cool project that will probably take a month for completion)


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## OldLadyWho

Thanks for posting. I had hoped someone that had used PayPal for a year or more would see this and give some insight. After reading about all the pros and cons today (my brain is just about mush tonight from all the searching and reading), I've come to the conclusion that PayPal should work fine for us for now. We do have sales considerably over $500.00, but those are generally done through contact with our sales department. Much of what we do is customized. However, we felt we needed to accomodate smaller buyers too, so the web option and PayPal will cover that area.

I'm going to give my partners the link to here and let them read what others have written. I think your "$500.00 limit" advice is good. Thanks again. I'm such a worrier. I hate to go into something feeling so ignorant. My parners just never think about problems, so I'm the curmudgeon of the partnership  and generally the one to look for problems before they happen...hopefully to avoid them. 

I'm going to jog over and look at your web site now...
OLW


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## faithchris

Hi, I have used pay pal now for 3 years with some what of great sucess the only problems I have with them are if it is a major large purchase like 5000.00 they seem to hold on to that money a long time. I had to make quite a few calls to get it taken care of but in the end all way well. I use Pay pal on a regular basis so on a scale of 1 to 10 they have always come out a 10 for me. They do now at least have a number you can call for help with a problem and that number is 1-888-221-1161. I have had at least 500 transactions with them to date. Good Luck to you.


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## Maggz

Portfolio? Yes weve made many websites including www.dabu4u.com www.venkee.com/mmorpg and some others. We also do business apps and stuff.. I also hope to be able to use more than paypal in the future but right now its very convienent


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## OldLadyWho

Thank you, faithchris
(Hi Maggz!)

In the week that I've been asking questions about PayPal, I've gotten some interesting responses. I not only did some serious Googling, but also sent emails to the owners of a few websites that I visit regularly that I know have used PayPal for at least a year. Also sent e-mails out to friends and family to ask if anyone had used PayPal as an online buyer recently (rather than a business owner).

I actually got more complaints from those who have made purchases from websites using PayPal than I did from vendors. Seems that general customers are still a little leery of using them.

I've gotten 19 responses from vendors (representing a combination of long term users, new users, and past users of PayPal.)

Only 3 of all of them, including one in this thread of posts, didn't like PayPal at all. Everyone else pretty much felt that PayPal did a good job for them...but, almost all of them gave at least one or two things to be aware of and watch out for.

So, just in case others might find what I learned useful, here's my own conclusions about PayPal:

-It's an excellent & economical tool to help new online businesses get started selling.

-Access to customer service is easier, and friendliness has improved somewhat in recent months.

-Accounts shouldn't be used regularly for large sales (Most suggested limiting to $500.00, or less)

-Accounts should not be allowed to accumulate money. (suggestions were to transfer any accumulated amount over $500.00 into a regular bank account ASAP) Apparently PayPal does have a reputation for freezing assets without notice, and taking their time sorting things out, before unfreezing things again or giving reasons for the freeze...so, it's not good to have very much sitting in the account. 

One question that I am still a little confused about is how liable PayPal is for money in their care. (I'm not sure I'm asking the question very clearly)

For instance. If PayPal suddenly went out of business and closed up shop...are they insured? Reading their legal policy was hard to do. Some of it was confusing. I came away with the impression that they pretty much have the power to do as they please, if they please, and can change their minds whenever they please. 

Some folks have pointed out that PayPal is not a bank, and isn't required to carry the same type of insurance banks have to carry. I've also read that they aren't under the same rules as "real" financial institutions...so, even though they try to walk like a bank, and talk like a bank...they really aren't, and those who use them should keep those things in mind and not allow too much of their business money to reside in PayPal's accounts.

And, with all that said (and being forewarned and prepared for possible PayPal pitfalls), my partners and I have decided to go with PayPal for now. 

(I'll post the link to our new site when it's up and running. 

Thanks again to everyone that posted and shared their experiences. I learned a lot, and appreciated your help tremendously. 

The TSG forum is worth its weight in gold...(hmmm...how much does a forum weigh, I wonder? lol!)
Maybe a better way to say it is: This forum is priceless. 
OLW


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## RandyG

It's an important distinction, that between what Vendors say and what your buyers prefer.

If you need to get setup quickly, then use PayPal, but I would recommend looking into services that are trusted by the buyer. I use WorldPay for my site, and it is part of The Royal Bank of Scotland Group.

I would have gone with Verisign's payment portal services, but they don't handle international companies, only those in the States.

Having the buyers confidence is paramount!

I have been working in eCommerce for the last 4 1/2 years, researching and building our site. I use PayPal for donating to TSG, and a $4 monthly subscription service. I wouldn't trust it with several thousand dollars /month business, but that is only an opinion, and not based in using it.

Just some humble opinions, both as an online shopper and eCommerce website owner


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## Raziel_Storm

I've been using Paypal for over a year and I haven't had any problems with them, and I have made a LOT of transactions with them.


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## SIR****TMG

ok i have been with paypal way before they sold it. at the cost of 54 million dollars...i have never had one problem with paypal at all...but i did have a problem one time with a seller of an item on ebay.....i paid for it and never got it after about a year paypal refunded my money back... i too have gotten fake emails saying my account was about to end and all the bulls---t that the scammers do...but i read up on the site once a week to keep up with the bull s---t... hope this helps you out.....


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## esty

I don't use paypal myself, but i know a couple people that do and they seem to be doing fine with it. I'm still suspicious however :/


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## Elvandil

I have used PayPal quite a bit. At one time I even put all my savings into an account there that had a favorable interest rate. Nary a problem. They are still in business after these few years and Ebay is not a bunch of idiots---they used PayPal, then bought it and are now the owners.

On the other hand, why put all your eggs in one basket? Many sellers on Ebay, for example, have alternates. If the worst were to come to pass, and that seems unlikely, at least your accounts would not be all in one place.

This is, admittedly, from their page. But it is no doubt still the truth:

"PayPal has quickly become a global leader in online payment solutions with 40 million account members worldwide. Available in 38 countries around the world, buyers and sellers on eBay, online retailers, online businesses, as well as traditional offline businesses are transacting with PayPal.

PayPal has received close to 20 awards for technical excellence from the Internet industry and the business community at large -most recently the 2003 Webby Award for Best Finance Site and the 2003 Webby People's Voice Award for Best Finance Site."


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## soulless

Opinions regarding paypal are divided. Some say it's great, while others are pretty upset with them. Actually I've think I've seen the word lawsuit on some forums. Statistically, my impression is that those who dislike paypal outnumber those who do... I could be wrong of course. An interesting site is www.paypalsucks.com. It's worth taking a look.


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## soulless

soulless said:


> Actually *I've think I've seen* the word lawsuit on some forums.


Sorry about that, my mistake. It's *I think I've seen*. Sorry again


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## cablegay

I say that though paypal is popular, there are many new services (ikobo, moneybookers...) that are offering better services for their clients and they are in continuous search of new ways to please the customer. ikobo.com is better than moneybookers (much larger coverage and lower fees) but what I was trying to say is that they never freeze your account like paypal does (also paypal's coverage is very small).


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## Maggz

Out of all the online stores ive bought from ive never seen ikobo offered only paypal. The game im playing right now (gunbound) only offers paypal to pay for its Cash to Gold program. Paypal i think is the best alternative to credit, but as of next week I wont need Paypal as much i finally got a credit card ! Erm anyways does this ikobo have a list of sites it allows you to shop through or what? Paypal freezes your account and verifies everything for top notch security, which I like.


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## soulless

That is true, many sites only support paypal mainly because it's the only one they've heard about, but that doesn't mean it's also the best choice. Sure, in some cases it may very well be, but once you need to do business with more countries than those covered by paypal you've got a problem on your hands. 
I don't know about the list of sites using ikobo, it may be available at www.ikobo.com. Maybe you want to check that out.
You may like having your account frozen, but me, along side with a lot of others don't. Especially if I know I haven't done anything wrong. 
Anyway, congratulations on your credit card!


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## cablegay

Youre right soulless. I am one of those people who hate having their account frozen without any further explanation. I for one had a lot of trouble and a lot of headaches while using paypal. For now Im pleased with what I use, I just hope ikobo wont start doing weird stuff like paypal did to me. I like to think Im an honest man with nothing to hide and thats why I got so frustrated when I saw my account being frozen. I really hope I wont have these types of problems again.


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## Maggz

I went to try and view the ikobo website to get more information when I was prompted with a page cannot be displayed. Knowing most major domains dont just go down a lot i checked peer guardian and low and behold it rejected its connection stating:

Connection Rejected: 129.41.90.20 - IBM split 2.1.2.1 PGIPDB (06-01-2004 @ 16:56:18)

Im not sure what PeerGuardian has against the company but until I find out or someone else does Im going to stay with paypal


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## soulless

I really don't understand why you couldn't open ikobo's page. This has never happened to me before. Right now for example it works just fine. Maybe it's some sort of problem on your end, I don't know.
BTW, what is PeerGuardian?


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## cablegay

From what I know, ikobo.com is powered by IBM. I don't think IBM makes this kind of mistakes. I am sure it was something wrong with your system. Even in this moment I checked it and it works. Did you know iKobo has partnership with Bank of America and Sun Trust? I just found out this info and I am glad because this proves (if not already known) it's reliability on the market


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## Pullitman

I used to use Paypal for purchases, usually around $ 100.00, and twice in a row I earmarked the funds to be taken from my Credit Card and they took it out of my bank account. I had opened a small bank account just to keep my regular account from ever appearing on any of my net transactions. 

Well, Paypal would not correct the problem so I went to the local branch, which happened to be inside of a local supermarket, and told them I wanted to close my account. When I gave them the reason I heard laughing behind me to discover 2 of the other 3 people waiting in line were there for the same reason. 

Needless to say Paypal lost 3 customers that day in a matter of minutes and would not use them again. I still purchase alot online but send money orders. 

Just my experience.


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## soulless

Yeah, that's just like paypal. They pretty much like to do whatever they please, regardless of their customer's (in this case ex-customer's) requests. Maybe because they thing they hold the monopoly in this field, or maybe they just don't care. I'm not sure, but is seems as though 3 customers plus or minus doesn't matter to them. A real company should care about each and every since customer of theirs.
Personally I've oriented myself towards some of the alternatives on the market. Right now I'm signed up with ikobo and so far I'm ok with their services. Low fees, fast, and I like the visa card they send you.


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## cablegay

What alternatives are you referring soulless ? Let's talk about each one of them maybe we can find a winner. What do you think ? Comparing them would be another great idea. But everyone must post from his own experience not from what he has heard or read on other forums.


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## soulless

Well as I already mentioned, ikobo seems like a viable alternative to me. There are others as well: moneybookers, 2checkout, stormpay, ikobo, epassporte, e-gold, authorize.net. I'm sure there are more to add to this list. Not all of them are among the best, but I'm sure some of these are worthy of attention.


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## cablegay

soulless said:


> Well as I already mentioned, ikobo seems like a viable alternative to me. There are others as well: moneybookers, 2checkout, stormpay, ikobo, epassporte, e-gold, authorize.net. I'm sure there are more to add to this list. Not all of them are among the best, but I'm sure some of these are worthy of attention.


stormpay is not among my list of choices. The fact that a customer cannot transfer funds to international bank accounts is a major drawback.


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## OldLadyWho

After starting this thread I haven't been able to come back to post any followups for a while. It's interesting to read the posts that have accumulated since I last visited.

For those who suggested that I visit "paypalsucks.com", I did visit that site. I have mixed feelings about much that is written there. I think a lot of the problems listed there may have been caused by people who weren't well informed about what they were doing and were careless in some way....maybe even intentionally so sometimes. 

The only thing I was originally concerned about was our customer's privacy and the security of their information. I remembered hearing several years ago that PayPal had been breached at one point, and sensitive information had been compromised. However, I couldn't find many old articles about that incident, and was able to find little new information about any similar problems happening recently. 

The only security problems I DID find had to do with customers willingly giving out their personal information to a faked PayPal web page. (eeek!) But this scam was something that PayPal has nothing to do with and is not responsible for. PayPal itself has warnings posted about this problem on their web site.

I also have made it a point to use PayPal myself, just to see how easy it is for customers to use. I made donations to a couple of useful and valuable web sites (Groklaw.net, and Dropload.com) and the process was very easy and nicely set up.

One of the problems I've run into with other shopping cart vendors, or pay services, has been that SOME of them will not accept "free" e-mail addresses from the customer. The unfortunate part of that is that they designated my own e-mail address as unacceptable because it does have a free version. I pay for an upgraded version, so it isn't free...but that didn't make a difference to them, and I was not allowed to complete the sale because of my e-mail address. I wish I had paid closer attention to the vendor's names so I could post examples of this problem, but I'm pretty sure others must have run into the same thing, so maybe someone else can name them.

PayPal does not present such a hurdle to the paying customer. 

To be honest, I haven't run into "the free e-mail address prohibition" very often, but when I do, the company I'm trying to buy from definitely loses a sale. My partners & I don't want to lose sales over something as silly as an e-mail address.

Anyway, we did our research and concluded that, if we pay close attention to all transactions, and stay personally available to our customers to help them with any problems, PayPal is an excellent tool for small business owners to start with. 

I think the key to using them is to be informed, aware, and to not leave large amounts of money in the PayPal account. Transferring sums that reach over a certain limit (say, $500.00) into our business bank account should keep our funds from ever becoming inaccessible in the event of a problem. We believe that PayPal can be trusted to take care of basic purchasing transactions, but shouldn't be trusted with all the money all the time...

...but then it's never wise to keep all of one's eggs in one basket, right?

I hope this little thread of posts will be helpful to others that may be considering ways to handle online sales for their small businesses. Hearing other people's personal experiences helped me (and my partners) a lot. This web site is absolutely a great place to gather information and learn new things. I have never come here without being helped by someone, and finding information that's been useful. I am a very appreciative member  Thanks TSG!!

OLW


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## OldLadyWho

Oops...I just wanted to add that when I mentioned donating to useful web sites, I didn't mention donating to TSG. I'd like to mention that now. I did donate to TSG several months back, and highly reccomend others to do so too. It's a resource I'd hate to ever lose and I think lots of folks would agree.

I can't remember, however, if PayPal was used when I donated to TSG...(I'll pay more attention the next time I donate). OLW


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## cablegay

I don't feel the same way. I think that when a person wants to start a business on internet, he or she wants to be available to the whole world. Taking this into consideration and knowing that PayPal covers only 4 or 5 countries, a simple conclusion is that the business will not reach the wanted target. But hey, there are always other online payment services that deliver high coverage.


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## soulless

cablegay said:


> I don't feel the same way. I think that when a person wants to start a business on internet, he or she wants to be available to the whole world. Taking this into consideration and knowing that PayPal covers only 4 or 5 countries, a simple conclusion is that the business will not reach the wanted target. But hey, there are always other online payment services that deliver high coverage.


That is also true. I have to agree with you as well cablegay.
Anyway, thanks for the nice words about this thread, OldLadyWho, I also agree with some of the things you said, especially the fact that people should be more careful with their money and read the user agreements more carefully. Still, I think paypal could do more to protect their customers...


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## OldLadyWho

===============================================================
"I think that when a person wants to start a business on internet, he or she wants to be available to the whole world." - cableguy
===============================================================

That's an interesting & excellent point. The thing is, it might matter a great deal what the product or service is. If it's a manufactured widget of some sort that works exactly the same way for every person in the world (let's say a backscratcher just as an example). That widget doesn't require a lot of know how, or language translations to sell, or to use. 

In that case, direct communication with the customers would probably be pretty minimal. After all a backscratcher can do its job anywhere from China to Australia to Mexico and all points between. 

If that were the type of product our business was offering, we'd definitely want it to be available for sales in as many countries as possible. 

But, what if your product is very specialized...and often customized? What if each sale required direct discussions with the clients? A small business that isn't prepared for global exposure would founder fast.

I had some old friends many years ago that opened a restaurant. It had been a lifelong dream of theirs to own their own place. After all the months of preparation and supply & equipment buying, painting, decorating, scrubbing the kitchen till it sparkled, and everything was set up beautifully, they quietly sent out a FEW invitations announcing that their doors were open.

The initial 2 weeks were quiet businesswise, and I asked my friend why they didn't just do a big "Grand Opening" campaign all over the city, and run some specials and try harder to pack the place.

She laughed and said that was in the plans for later on. But she said she knew from hard experience that to expose a new business, especially a new service business to TOO many people at once was a good way to PO the most people, and lose the most potential return customers at one time.

She said the help needed training and practice. They all needed to work in the new building, with the new equipment, to see what might need changing and what processes needed streamlining. They also needed to see what might be the most popular food items, so they understood their supply and ordering needs. 

She was right, they gradually worked out the problems that arose during those first weeks. The customers that were inconvenienced or who suffered from a less than perfect dining experience, were hand picked customers...personally invited gunea pigs (so to speak). So no customers became irate, and no one left the building determined to tell all their friends how awful the place was. 

By the following month when they had everything ready and all the bugs worked out (so to speak  ) and did the big grand opening push to the general public, they still only advertised in select areas at first. Later on as they grew, they advertised more widely. 

They ran that restaurant successfully for almost 20 years before retiring...in fact it's still there, under the new owners. 

I'm thinking with our little business, we are at the point that we want to expand a little, but we also need to be prepared for each step up. The PayPal account we have on our web site is aimed at smaller business customers wanting to buy smaller amounts. Our main "bread & butter" focus however is towards large organizations (buying LARGE amounts ), and personal contact is essential for that. 

And right now, between the three of us, we only have language skills that will cover about 3 other languages besides English. 

So, PayPal's inability to cover the whole world is not a problem for us. We've already decided that when the time comes we will likely look for other pay options. And we have every intention of keeping a VERY close eye on how PayPal treats us, and treats our customers. PayPal also won't be the main method of sales for us. 

It'll definitely be interesting to see how all of this works. I'm always interested in hearing how other small businesses handle the beginning headaches and problems too. I hope more folks will post here and tell their stories and give tips and advice to others starting out. 

And soulless, I agree, PayPal should treat their customers right...and believe me, if we find that they don't...I'll be right here letting people know.

Have a great weekend everyone! OLW


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## HOBOcs

I've been following this thread and found it an interesting read with good points all round, OLW :up:


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## cablegay

You are right OLW, I agree with you almost completely. If someone wants to keep his business small then there are two options:
1. He doesn't want the hassle of a big business
2. He wants to take things slowly and grow in steps

Ok. I agree with that. What I don't understand is why are you using PayPal, when on the market are other top services with much more exciting features and LOWER fees.


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## soulless

cablegay said:


> [...]
> What I don't understand is why are you using PayPal, when on the market are other top services with much more exciting features and LOWER fees.


You see, a lot of people present company excluded, use paypal because it's the only one they've ever heard about. It's true however that they do have a considerable customer base, but still that doesn't mean it's necessarily the best option. As you said there are other alternatives, alternatives who haven't been involved in so many problems, lawsuits and that type of stuff as paypal has. 
I'm not saying paypal is bad per say, it's just that one should look for oneself while using paypal, because they tend not to care too much whether their customers' accounts get cleaned up or not (and not in a good way).


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## mecury_2001

my response to the original post, I have had no problems in the past with paypal,and continue to use it. but like the aforementioned stated there are plenty of services out there that provide secure transactions for less.

here is question for the original poster. How well do you know the person that setup your paypal acct? did he give you all the facts such as what type of an account was setup and is the money going into your buissness acct and not being rerouted to his acct? did he give you the password to the account? DID YOU THEN CHANGE THE PASSWORD TO YOUR ACCT SO THAT ONLY YOU AND YOUR PARTNERS KNOW IT?  These questions need not be answered to me or anyone else just to yourself.i am not trying create a wave of parinora but i just brought this up only to enlighten you on how the user's need to take certain steps for their own protection and peace of mind.


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## cablegay

mecury_2001 said:


> my response to the original post, I have had no problems in the past with paypal,and continue to use it. but like the aforementioned stated there are plenty of services out there that provide secure transactions for less.
> 
> here is question for the original poster. How well do you know the person that setup your paypal acct? did he give you all the facts such as what type of an account was setup and is the money going into your buissness acct and not being rerouted to his acct?


I agree completely. I would never give my information to anybody especially when there is money involved. You never know what can happen with your money when somebody else handles your money. So, my advice to the original post is to erase the account and to make another one, this time by himself. And while you are at this point maybe you should reconsider also about your payment service provider because now you have plenty of options to choose from.


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## s43

Alot of information is on paypalsucks.com (i think thats the URL)


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## OldLadyWho

Hey! This is great! Mercury_2001, those are some EXCELLENT questions for us to consider. I hadn't thought of any of them before. I will look into the answers ASAP. I really don't know the web builder too well, though one of my partners does (in fact, they're related ). 

To be perfectly honest, there are some things about the web site that I don't like at all. However, it seems wisest for now to just let the web person get her job done. 

She used "Front Page" to build it (blech). But then, I am the only one in the partnership that isn't totally entrenched in all things MicroSoft, the other two partners seem happy enough with what's going online, so I'm staying quiet for now. 

Mostly it seems unproductive, if I don't know how to do something myself, to complain about how someone else is doing it...I just figure nothing is written in stone, and all things are changable as we go along. 

s43, as far as reading the PayPalSucks web site, I did read it. I also read other news stories about PayPal. My feelings about the stories on PayPalSucks are that many of them are older stories, and many things have changed at PayPal in recent years. I also felt that there might be another side to some of the stories.

I think the reason my partners and the web site builder went with PayPal was because it was a free option. They felt it was a good "starter" program. 

The web site builder (I hesitate to call her a "designer") suggested PayPal, too...and she is VERY sensitive to criticism, so I'm just hoping she gets it done soon, so we can hire someone else. (I know this makes no sense, but it's too long a story to retell...even for me, and I have a reputation for writing the longest posts this side of the Rockies)...(I'm west of 'em, btw).

And, I'd send my partners the link to this thread so they could read what everyone's said about the alternatives to PayPal...but, then I'd have to go back in and take out all the stuff about the web builder. (They like her). 

Take care, all! And thanks for the advice! OLW


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## soulless

s43 said:


> Alot of information is on paypalsucks.com (i think thats the URL)


Yeah, that's the URL, with a www in front of course  
I myself learned a thing or two there, about how to be more careful and not commit the same mistakes which others have. Well, it also scared me away from paypal.


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## cablegay

soulless said:


> Yeah, that's the URL, with a www in front of course
> I myself learned a thing or two there, about how to be more careful and not commit the same mistakes which others have. Well, it also scared me away from paypal.


What mistakes are you reffering to ? Share with us your experience please. We all must learn from the mistakes of others. Maybe you can post about the main mistakes that are usually commiter by customers. Thanks.


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## soulless

cablegay said:


> What mistakes are you reffering to ? Share with us your experience please. We all must learn from the mistakes of others. Maybe you can post about the main mistakes that are usually commiter by customers. Thanks.


Well for example not to click on any links you receive in your mail saying they are from paypal, they can in fact be from hackers trying to steal your account information by redirecting you to site made to look like paypal's. Type the URL manually, don't leave to much money into your account, never give your password to anyone, the URL must begin with a http*s* (s for secure) and stuff like that.
I suppose that if paypal isn't going to look out for their customers and try to protect them one way or the other the customers will have to that themselves or chose another similar service.


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## cablegay

Yes I heard that many paypol customers had those kinds of problems in the past and even in the present. I hope those hackers will let go in the end. Paypol customers migrate in a great number to other payment systems because they feel insecure using this service. I like iKobo's verification process because its being made manually and this lowers the chance of frauds.


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## soulless

cablegay said:


> ....
> I like iKobo's verification process because its being made manually and this lowers the chance of frauds.


You like it, I'm ok with it, but you have to admit there are people who may think this is slow, or difficult or whatever therefore they may not like it and choose paypal for example. I personally believe you can never be to careful about security and fraud prevention, then again, that's just me.


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## cablegay

I think paypal is good for US people. For other regions or countries I prefer iKobo because they are much better. I won't list now the features that made me choose them. Everybody should check the alternatives and choose whatever he or she thinks it's best for his/her purpose.


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## soulless

Why not list them? After we're all here to learn and share our experiences. If yours happens to be a good one I don't see why you wouldn't share it with the rest of the class?


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## cablegay

Well I am not trying to advertise but If I am going to list them, I want us to talk about it because there is no gain if I only list them but nobody talks about them. I will try anyway. My best choices will be in this order (from my point of view of course) : ikobo.com , moneybookers , epassporte (I heard some bad news about epassporte but for other people might work just fine ... ) and paypal.


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## soulless

Well, these are some of the reasons epassporte isn't among my favorites:
- For every load\reload of virtual visa = $5.00 for every $100.00 loaded or portion thereof.
- You must have a minimum of $50 in your account to make a purchase. For instance, if someone wanted to buy something for $15 they would have to first put $50 in their account. 
- It only supports non-recurring payments. 
- It is rumored that their customer service is not the greatest.
- You need to have a credit card to use the service; you cannot transfer funds from your bank account.
- It requires CVV2 authorization and some banks do not support this, especially in Europe (and I am from Europe).


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## RandyG

I'm currently doing my Payment Processing through WorldPay, and we are looking for a new payment processor.

We're based in Ireland, and Paypal will start allowing Irish banks in August, but I'm not sure I want to go with Paypal.

cableguy - are you currently using this ikobo crowd?? I can't find any info on their site as to allowing withdrawals into non-US banks. As a matter of fact, they specifically say they can deposit money in US banks, and give Visa access to ATMs. You mentioned they would be good for International, so could you provide some more inof on them?


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## cablegay

RandyG said:


> I'm currently doing my Payment Processing through WorldPay, and we are looking for a new payment processor.
> 
> We're based in Ireland, and Paypal will start allowing Irish banks in August, but I'm not sure I want to go with Paypal.
> 
> cableguy - are you currently using this ikobo crowd?? I can't find any info on their site as to allowing withdrawals into non-US banks. As a matter of fact, they specifically say they can deposit money in US banks, and give Visa access to ATMs. You mentioned they would be good for International, so could you provide some more inof on them?


They currently support ATM withdrawals in 170 countries all over the world. This is their coverage. So if you make an account at ikobo you will be able to withdraw your funds from ANY ATM VISA PLUS machine in 170 countries. The withdrawal fee is 1.5$ and I think you know their transfer fees. If you don't you might want to check http://www.ikobo.com/ikobo.cgi?action=info_fee. If you need more information I will be glad to help you.


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## soulless

I'm not sure they allow withdrawals to non-us banks, they give you the ATM card and you can withdraw the money yourself. You could ask them if they allow this by livechat (it's somewhere in the top-right side of their website). Just a suggestion.


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## RandyG

nah, If I were a really small business, I could see doing this, or a Sole Trader, but I'll need something that will actually do bank transactions for me. Besides, most ATMs have a limit of how much you can withdraw per day, and that would mean spending once/day withdrawing funds, and never being able to catch up.

Thanx for the added info, though, cablegay and soulless!:up:


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## soulless

Yeah, I suppose you're right. I'm sorry I couldn't help any further. It was my pleasure anyway.


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## RandyG

:up:


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## soulless

On a different note, has anybody here sent money using ikobo? I'm thinking about doing it myself, but I would like to hear from someone who's actually done it before, just to be safe. Thanks!


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## cablegay

soulless said:


> I'm not sure they allow withdrawals to non-us banks, they give you the ATM card and you can withdraw the money yourself. You could ask them if they allow this by livechat (it's somewhere in the top-right side of their website). Just a suggestion.


I was talking about transferring money from your ATM ikobo account. It's like paying your electricity bill using an ATM.


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## cablegay

RandyG said:


> nah, If I were a really small business, I could see doing this, or a Sole Trader, but I'll need something that will actually do bank transactions for me. Besides, most ATMs have a limit of how much you can withdraw per day, and that would mean spending once/day withdrawing funds, and never being able to catch up.
> 
> Thanx for the added info, though, cablegay and soulless!:up:


No problem, man. It was my pleasure.


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## hermies

Hello. Personally I would have to say that I hate Paypal. But that's after being burned only one time out of several hundred successful transactions over the years! Maybe things will work out for you, but it doesn't hurt to have a backup plan.


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## Mumbodog

"PayPal had been breached at one point"

Most sites either don't know they have been breached, or report it for years if they do.
So wondering if they are secure is irrelevant in most cases, most never admit it unless the breach is huge or is leaked by a third party, forcing them to fess up.

Prime example
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/8260050/

the breach was not even known until MasterCard pinned it on one of their comrades.

"She said she couldn't provide details of how the systems were hacked, but did say that "an unauthorized entity put a specific code into CardSystems' network," enabling the person or group to gain access to the data. She wouldn't say how long attackers had access to CardSystems computers."

Nothing is safe anymore.


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## JohnWill

Nothing like dredging up a four year old thread.


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## Mumbodog

Wow what a contribution to the thread!


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## JohnWill

Mumbodog said:


> Wow what a contribution to the thread!


Almost as good as yours.


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## JohnWill

Since this is an ancient thread, I'm going to close this one.


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