# bathroom electric outlet wont work



## Doom_Machine (Jun 26, 2005)

dont know much about electricity, when i bought my house i was told the wiring in the bathroom eletrical outlet was switched and needs to be switched back, seems to me it would still work

anyone know of what i can do to fix it? could it be that all i have to do is take it out and swap the wires around?

i already checked the fuse box, a few breakers were off but turning them on didnt fix it


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## kiwiguy (Aug 17, 2003)

Sorry, but the description you give does not fill me with confidence.

As a bathroom outlet is a supply in a potentially "hazardous area" due to moisture etc, it can present a very real danger to the user.

Please get a qualified electrician to check it out, or if not then make sure that you and your loved ones are very well covered with life insurance...


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## lexmarks567 (Aug 13, 2006)

Make sure you replace the outlet with a GFCI one as required by code


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## katonca (Aug 10, 2004)

lexmarks567 said:


> Make sure you replace the outlet with a GFCI one as required by code


Very important around water :up:


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## Doom_Machine (Jun 26, 2005)

well naturally i would turn off the breaker first before messing with it

its a safety outlet, the ones that have built in protection
everything in my house has passed code inspection


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## iltos (Jun 13, 2004)

Doom_Machine said:


> well naturally i would turn off the breaker first before messing with it
> 
> its a safety outlet, the ones that have built in protection
> everything in my house has passed code inspection


are you saying it doesn't work?

you've pushed the test and reset buttons?

gfi can be tricky, depending on where they are placed in the 'run'....if it's at the end of the run (the last receptacle in the circuit) you could try "swapping" the wires, tho it likely won't affect its performance (could just be a bad plug...known to happen).....

if it's not at the end of a run, it will be tripped by any receptacle downstream, unless the wiring is mixed up....i'm sure there are correct wiring diagrams here on the www somewhere.


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## Doom_Machine (Jun 26, 2005)

thanks for info, i did push test and reset...it was the inspector guy that told me the wiring was "swapped" how he knew or thought that i dunno

but theres 3 wires right? one is ground, so the 2 should have electricity so even if their swapped wouldnt it still work?
if so then i'd just buy another plug but i would have no clue if its at the end of a run or not or how i could test the wiring itself

as of now i just dont see it that huge of a deal to pay an electrition alot of money just so i can recharge my razer or have a nightlight, know what i mean


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## iltos (Jun 13, 2004)

i'm not an electrician DM, but if its not at the end of a run, the hot and the neutral will continue on...so you'll have five wires in that box...their installation in the middle of a run someplace has always confused me, 'cause it doesn't seem to follow common sense.


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## buck52 (Mar 9, 2001)

What is it you are calling a "safety outlet"

When you say switched... Do you mean reversed ie: load vs line on a GFCI outlet or switched as in an on/off switch 

I'm with kiwiguy... get an electrician

buck


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## lexmarks567 (Aug 13, 2006)

IMO Get the book *WIRING SIMPLIFIED* It will help out to.I was told to get it by a mod It helps.make sure it says. based on the 2005 national electrical code.Its the lastest one


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## iltos (Jun 13, 2004)

it's the "load" and the "line" connections that have always confused me...


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## buck52 (Mar 9, 2001)

line in ...

load out ...

most quality GFCI plugs have a sticker on the load terminals... that said

while not a licensed electrician... I have a construction supervisors license and would not waste any money on GFCI outlets

GFCI breakers in the main panel are the way to go... They are far more relyable and eliminate the upstream/downstream confussion...


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## kilowatt1 (Oct 27, 2001)

If the inspector told you it was switched, what he most likely means is that the neutral (white wire) and the hot (black wire) are reversed. If you look closely at the GFCI receptacle you'll see that one side has silver colored screws and the opposite side has gold or brass colored screws. The white wire(s) attach to the silver colored screws and the black wire(s) attach to the gold colored screws. The bare copper wire is attached to the green screw. Now, you probably only have one each of black, white and bare copper wires in the box. If this is true, then connect the black and white wires to the terminals marked "Line". If you have more than one of each color wire in the box the correct wiring sequence is a little more complicated.

The inspector could tell that the wires were switched or installed incorrectly by using a GFCI tester.

As already posted, always use caution when working with electricity.


Kilowatt


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## lexmarks567 (Aug 13, 2006)

a GFCI does not have to be grounded. But it should be marked non grounded outlet.Where are you located anyways.If In new york City You can not do this work without a permit. New york is very picky about this. there so fussy that they might as well make it to where you need a permit to change a light bulb.Thats how fussy they are.


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## hewee (Oct 26, 2001)

Go to the hardware store and get a tester like this here.










Or this one.

http://www.elexp.com/tst_9610.htm

It will tell you want is what by the lights on it and the chart. 
Plus get one that has the button to test the gfci too.
Some tell you a little more then others but most are about the same.

It will cost about $6.00 to $15.00 for one. 
Home Depot my have more models to pick from too.


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## Knotbored (Jun 5, 2004)

I think this is a language problem.
The word "switched" has us considering that the wires are reversed which is unlikely/
I believe you will find the outlet has a switch in line before the outlet (maybe in the hallway) so the outlet can be disconnected when not in use (maybe for child protection.)

Note I have outlets in my living room that are "switched" so I can turn off lamps at one location.


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## tdi_veedub (Jan 29, 2004)

Turn off the breaker, pull out the outlet and look at it. GFCI outlets have 2 sets of screws for hot/nuetral. One is for line, and the other is for load.

The live circuit is connected to the line terminals, and any subsequent outlets are connected to load terminals. If they are reversed, then the outlet will not function as a GCFI outlet.

Also, the black wire (hot) is connected to the brass screw, and the white wire (nuetral) is connected to the silver screw. If any of the hot/nuetral wires are reversed, the outlet will not function properly.

The bare wire(ground) is connected to the box AND the ground screw on the outlet AND the ground wire going to the load outlets.


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## Doom_Machine (Jun 26, 2005)

thanks for info, i'll have a look


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## JohnWill (Oct 19, 2002)

lexmarks567 said:


> a GFCI does not have to be grounded. But it should be marked non grounded outlet.Where are you located anyways.If In new york City You can not do this work without a permit. New york is very picky about this. there so fussy that they might as well make it to where you need a permit to change a light bulb.Thats how fussy they are.


Actually, this is 100% incorrect. If there is no ground reference, the GFI circuit has no reference to detect the imbalanced current. At a minimum, the GFI circuit has to have a ground, even if the physical outlet doesn't have a ground. However, I'm certain that the National Electrical Code specifies grounded outlets for all GFI outlets anyway.


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## buck52 (Mar 9, 2001)

lexmarks567 said:


> a GFCI does not have to be grounded. But it should be marked non grounded outlet.Where are you located anyways.If In new york City You can not do this work without a permit. New york is very picky about this. there so fussy that they might as well make it to where you need a permit to change a light bulb.Thats how fussy they are.


I am sure glad you are are not an electrician in my area...


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## tdi_veedub (Jan 29, 2004)

FYI, the nuetral wire(white) in all household wiring systems is the ground. The bare/green ground wire is a backup to the nuetral in the event that someone has used a non-polarized appliance in a polarized outlet, it will still be grounded properly.

lexmarks567 is correct in that a GFCI outlet (or anyoutlet for that matter) does not need to be grounded. It would still be grounded (the nuetral),but would not have the extra protection of the extra ground, and the outlet would be required to be labelled as such.

Don't believe me? Open up your service panel( DONT TOUCH ANYTHING!!! Just look!) and see what is connected to your neutral bus.


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## kilowatt1 (Oct 27, 2001)

Actually, lexmarks567 is correct, to an extent. The NEC says that it is indeed permissable to use a GFCI receptacle on an EXISTING 2 wire (no equipment ground) circuit if the recepatacle is labeled or identified as "non-grounded". In fact, a GFCI receptacle installed on a circuit without an equipment ground is safer than a standard grounded receptacle with an equipment ground attached.

Here is an excellent article from Mike Holt which explains it better than I can.

Kilowatt


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## Deke40 (Jun 27, 2002)

You can also connect the wiring in the GFI so when it trips it doesn't kill everything downstream.

When they built my house in 78 they had a GFI in my main breaker and it was connected to the outside plugs and the bathroom plugs but in somebody's way of either being cheap or lazy they also wired my A\C controls in series with this line. Maybe the GFIs weren't very good then so I had to remove it.

When I had some extensive remodeling done I had all the plugs and swithces in the house changed out and they then installed GFIs in the bathrooms. Sometime when my wife uses her hair dryer it will trip it out. The first time is when I noticed the A\C thermostat reading was blank and called the electrican and he explained how to rewire it so it still works and doesn't trip everything downstream out.

I simply connected the wires both in and out to the top pressure plate and instead of to the top and bottom and it works fine when I test it.


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## blues_harp28 (Jan 9, 2005)

Hi not a electrician..but worked for 30 or so years in the building trade..and have seen the result of bad electrical fittings.
Getting a electrical shock from electricity is one thing..add some water and the result may not be pretty..
Pay for a expert..


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## hewee (Oct 26, 2001)

Here in my State most places the GFI is on it's own circuit or just one or a couple other plugs.
Like the bath GFI and a outside GFI plugs are on one circuit.
Then the kitchen will be on it's own circuit.

Look these links.

http://www.easy2diy.com/cm/easy/diy_ht_index.asp?page_id=35720244

http://www.faqs.org/faqs/electrical-wiring/part1/section-27.html


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## tdi_veedub (Jan 29, 2004)

Most codes now require that all outdoor wiring is GFI protected as well as bathrooms and kitchen counters. Many also do not approve of bathrooms and outdoor to be on the same circuit. Make sure you check your local codes too. There's NEC / CSA ... then there are local codes which are typically really fussy ...

I just found out that new code in Ontario also requires AFCI breakers for all sleeping quarters so check the code for that too ...

3 bedrooms, 3 different circuits, 3 different AFCI breakers needed ... $60.00 /breaker


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## iltos (Jun 13, 2004)

interesting how their can be so many different opinions about a gfi...and all of them pretty darn knowledgable....

but i keep coming back to thread to see if Doom_Machine has figured out the problem yet.


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## lexmarks567 (Aug 13, 2006)

buck52 said:


> I am sure glad you are are not an electrician in my area...


A moderator in the electrical forum from the site i came from told me it did not have to be grounded.So Im not wrong he is.I'll find the link


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## lexmarks567 (Aug 13, 2006)

Ok heres the *LINK*.Read post *38* By moderator RACRAFT.


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## kiwiguy (Aug 17, 2003)

In NZ we call them RCD's (Residual Current Devices) and not GFI's

But stop and consider that most things that you would plug into the socket in a bathroom have no earth lead anyway, only a 2 core flex. Razor, hairdryer etc.

In NZ it is (and always has been) illegal to have any socket without a ground connection, but the RCD's have no internal connection to the ground wire, its a pass through to the appliance if it uses a three core flex.

As above, the Neutral is grounded at the switchboard. Therefore the current in the phase and neutral in any appliance nust be equal unless some phase current is going to ground. 

That is what the device monitors, the balance of current. If the balance is out by 10 mA or 30 mA (depending on the level of protection) then the device operates and cuts the supply. That would happen if there was a ground wire at the socket or not in practice.

However I cannot comment on US regulations, as to what is required. I am qualified to comment on NZ and Australian practices.


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## johnpost (Dec 18, 2005)

tdi_veedub said:


> FYI, the nuetral wire(white) in all household wiring systems is the ground. The bare/green ground wire is a backup to the nuetral in the event that someone has used a non-polarized appliance in a polarized outlet, it will still be grounded properly.
> 
> lexmarks567 is correct in that a GFCI outlet (or anyoutlet for that matter) does not need to be grounded. It would still be grounded (the nuetral),but would not have the extra protection of the extra ground, and the outlet would be required to be labelled as such.
> 
> Don't believe me? Open up your service panel( DONT TOUCH ANYTHING!!! Just look!) and see what is connected to your neutral bus.


 tdi_veedub,

I am not an electrician but have knowledge of some stuff.

What you are saying is incorrect and dangerous.

The white (neutral) wire is grounded at the main breaker/fuse box and
is no where else (with few exceptions), it is called the grounded conductor
to return current , it is not an electrical ground conductor. There is a
difference in what is a grounded conductor and a ground conductor.
A neutral wire has a voltage above ground potential and has current
flowing through it. There are many ways you could die if you touched it.

the bare/green wire is the only ground conductor. under normal circustances
it never has a voltage or current on it. it only has voltage or current when
other wiring or appliances have failed and it should cause a breaker/fuse
to blow.

a polarized appliance will work just fine with a 2 prong plug reversed. all grounded
plugs are by their nature polarized. 2 prong polarized plugs were to
promote safety for devices that had a chasis(or parts) used as a current conductor
and contact with that chasis was possible for a person.

you are correct that a GFCI will have some function even if it has
no ground connection.

john


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## johnpost (Dec 18, 2005)

johnpost said:


> tdi_veedub,
> 
> I am not an electrician but have knowledge of some stuff.
> 
> ...


 i get to correct myself.

in the above

the white (neutral) is the grounded conductor

the green (bare wire) should be changed to read "the grounding conductor"

the terms and distinction are important. common use of the english
language will lead to misunderstanding. the electrical code is very
hard to understand, many of the standards and techniques can
be hard to understand the purpose for.

also an addition

the gfci doesn't have to be grounded for some functioning. the device
compares the current flow in the hot wire (black, red) and the neutral
wire (white) if the current isn't equal then it trips off. the hot and
neutral currents would be be unequal if some current flowed through
a ground path (not a grounding conductor in this case because
we are talking only 2 wires) which could be broken wire, object
or a person's body.

john


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## JohnWill (Oct 19, 2002)

One issue with not having a ground on a GFI is that the test button no longer works, since it doesn't have any ground reference to cause the fault. It's important to periodically test the GFI to insure it's still functional...


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## kilowatt1 (Oct 27, 2001)

The circuitry in the GFCI will test the device and it does work, even without an equipment ground. The way GFCI's work is a coil is around both the outgoing phase conductor and the return grounded conductor. In the event of the current being unbalanced by more than 6 ma (4 to 6 ma range), the GFCI will trip.

However, a hand held GFCI tester will not work. Such testers require an equipment gound which is used to complete the test circuit.


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## buck52 (Mar 9, 2001)

I believe that is why most up to date codes require GFCI panel breakers rather than inline GFCI outlets...

buck


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## kiwiguy (Aug 17, 2003)

JohnWill said:


> One issue with not having a ground on a GFI is that the test button no longer works, since it doesn't have any ground reference to cause the fault. It's important to periodically test the GFI to insure it's still functional...


Actually thats a good point. I will test one here at some stage to see if the test button always uses the earth conductor, as it would also work just as well if it used the Neutral conductor but connecting to it before it passes through the current balance transformer.


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## JohnWill (Oct 19, 2002)

kilowatt1 said:


> The circuitry in the GFCI will test the device and it does work, even without an equipment ground. The way GFCI's work is a coil is around both the outgoing phase conductor and the return grounded conductor. In the event of the current being unbalanced by more than 6 ma (4 to 6 ma range), the GFCI will trip.
> 
> However, a hand held GFCI tester will not work. Such testers require an equipment gound which is used to complete the test circuit.


Where did you see that I said equipment ground?  If you have no independent ground reference at the GFI itself, there is no way to initiate a test of the GFI circuit, since you have no alternate path to shunt the current to cause the imbalance.


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## JohnWill (Oct 19, 2002)

kiwiguy said:


> Actually thats a good point. I will test one here at some stage to see if the test button always uses the earth conductor, as it would also work just as well if it used the Neutral conductor but connecting to it before it passes through the current balance transformer.


Interesting idea, and I guess that would do the trick. However, I can't imagine any new installation getting wired without a separate ground in the cable anyway.


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## kilowatt1 (Oct 27, 2001)

JohnWill,

The grounding conductor is referenced as an *Equipment Ground *by the NEC.

NEC 210-7. ...(d) Replacements. Replacement of receptacles shall comply with (1), (2), and (3) below as applicable.

(1) Where a grounding means exists in the receptacle enclosure or a grounding conductor is installed in accordance with Section 250-50(b), Exception, grounding-type receptacles shall be used and shall be connected to the grounding conductor in accordance with Section 210-7(c) or Section 250-50(b), Exception.

(2) Ground-fault circuit-interrupter protected receptacles shall be provided where replacements are made at receptacle outlets that are required to be so protected elsewhere in this Code.

(3) Where a grounding means does not exist in the receptacle enclosure, the installation shall comply with a, b, or c below:

a. A nongrounding-type receptacle(s) shall be permitted to be replaced with another nongrounding-type receptacle(s).

b. A nongrounding-type receptacle(s) shall be permitted to be replaced with a ground-fault circuit-interrupter-type of receptacle(s). These receptacles shall be marked "No *Equipment Ground."* An *equipment grounding conductor *shall not be connected from the ground-fault circuit-interrupter-type receptacle to any outlet supplied from the ground-fault circuit-interrupter receptacle.

c. A nongrounding-type receptacle(s) shall be permitted to be replaced with a grounding-type receptacle(s) where supplied through a ground-fault circuit-interrupter. Grounding-type receptacles supplied through the ground-fault circuit-interrupter shall be marked "GFCI Protected" and "No* Equipment Ground*." An *equipment grounding conductor *shall not be connected between the grounding-type receptacles.

NEC 250-50 ...Exception for (a) and (b): For replacement of nongrounding-type receptacles with grounding-type receptacles and for branch-circuit extensions only in existing installations that do not have an *equipment grounding conductor *in the branch circuit, the grounding conductor of a grounding-type receptacle outlet shall be permitted to be grounded to any accessible point on the grounding electrode system as described in Section 250-81, or to any accessible point on the grounding electrode conductor.

The fact of the matter is that the test button will work on a GFCI receptacle, regardless of whether or not it has an equipment ground. If the opposite were true then the NEC would not allow the use of GFCI receptacles on existing two wire systems.


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## kilowatt1 (Oct 27, 2001)

Perhaps I should have explained in my earlier posts how the test button on a GFCI receptacle works.

When the test button is pressed it inserts a resistor between the LINE neutral and the LOAD hot creating a 5mA imbalance. Since the LINE neutral is on the LINE side of the current coil there will be NO current in the LOAD neutral which creates an unbalance on the load side of the GFCI. It is this unbalanced condition that causes the receptacle to trip.


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## kiwiguy (Aug 17, 2003)

That ties into my thoughts in the post above, that the Neutral before the balance CT would be used and not the earth, for test button operation. There is a safety consideration, in that one would expect that the button *could* also be used to disconnect in any event.

But as already covered well, it would be highly unusual (and in many places illegal) to not have an earth connection at the outlet, GFCI or not.

Earthed outlets have been mandatory here since at least 1921 (when this house was first wired, by the way)


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## JohnWill (Oct 19, 2002)

I've built three houses since the late 70's, and the local electrical codes have always mandated three wire grounded outlets. I can't imagine much of the US having different building codes. I agree that in existing structures, you can probably have quite a hodgepodge of configurations, and I won't even try to figure all those variables out.


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## Doom_Machine (Jun 26, 2005)

kiwiguy said:


> Earthed outlets have been mandatory here since at least 1921 (when this house was first wired, by the way)


i dunno, ive lived in a house without earthed outlets and it was built in the 50's...likely it was an individual state code thing

however seeing these threads has scared me away from trying to fix it myself, while kinda annoying its just not worth paying an electrition to fix, i'm guessing a $100 or more, heck with that, i'll just recharge my shaver in the kitchen lol

i forgot my g/f's last apartment didnt have earthed outlets either, she had to use adapters for plugs with the 3rd earth pin, i'd say theres lots of houses in my area without grounded plugins


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## JohnWill (Oct 19, 2002)

A lot changed between the 50's and the 70's.


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## kiwiguy (Aug 17, 2003)

Just shows that in NZ we were ahead of you even in the 1920's I guess...?


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## johnpost (Dec 18, 2005)

Doom_Machine said:


> i dunno, ive lived in a house without earthed outlets and it was built in the 50's...likely it was an individual state code thing


 in the USA it can be a county or township thing. building codes are recommendations
from organizations. states will just say "our state building code follows the building
code from a particular organization", maybe just add deviations from it. depending
on the history of the state and township and its governing structures, a county may
not have to accept the state code. townships in a county may also not accept
all the codes of a county. it's mostly an issue for rural areas, i expect
incorporated cities take on all the county and state codes fully.



Doom_Machine said:


> however seeing these threads has scared me away from trying to fix it myself, while kinda annoying its just not worth paying an electrition to fix, i'm guessing a $100 or more, heck with that, i'll just recharge my shaver in the kitchen lol


 many of today's appliances themselves are ungrounded, that is a
separate issue from the very good idea of having your household
electrical system grounded. metal cased appliances were more
dangerous with two prong cords, polarized plugs improved things,
three prong with ground was much better. with the use of plastic
housings and double insulation many appliances are now two
prong polarized ungrounded again. so for a plastic housed
two prong polarized appliance a three wire grounded GFCI
recepticle would give you no protection over a two wire
ungrounded GFCI as far as the appliance itself was concerned.



Doom_Machine said:


> i forgot my g/f's last apartment didnt have earthed outlets either, she had to use adapters for plugs with the 3rd earth pin, i'd say theres lots of houses in my area without grounded plugins


 also depends on date of infrastructure creation and amount..
when infrastructure is created it might just be maintained
with slight improvements and only replaced when totally
broken. so some areas of cities could still have DC distribution
systems until current or recent times. you could have brick
sewers and wooden water mains as well. rural areas as well
can keep decades old systems going because of lower demand,
only recently was the last telephone system (in the lower 48 usa)
converted to a dial system.

for homes it is common that if the structure was up to code
at the time the new code was adopted then it remained
legal, grandfathered. so to have uninsulated copper wire
electrical system done in knob and tube would still be
legal (bare wires were set on ceramic insulators and 
through ceramic tubes, placed at ceiling height,expensive
insulated wire was only used when it was brought into
a person's reach at a switch, socket or recepticle). you can
repair older sytems as long as they work to the standards
of the time they were made, that is why two wire 
ungrounded recepticles and switches are still sold.

i believe the above statements to be true without being an expert on anything.


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