# Win 8 loses restore points



## pikespeakbob (Jun 10, 2004)

Tech Support Guy System Info Utility version 1.0.0.2
OS Version: Microsoft Windows 8 Pro, 64 bit
Processor: Intel(R) Core(TM) i7 CPU 920 @ 2.67GHz, Intel64 Family 6 Model 26 Stepping 5
Processor Count: 8
RAM: 24566 Mb
Graphics Card: NVIDIA GeForce GTX 295, 896 Mb
Hard Drives: C: Total - 1898830 MB, Free - 1667352 MB; D: Total - 8817 MB, Free - 3467 MB; E: Total - 1898830 MB, Free - 1743353 MB; F: Total - 8817 MB, Free - 3888 MB; G: Total - 281459 MB, Free - 250456 MB; H: Total - 4690 MB, Free - 3092 MB; I: Total - 953866 MB, Free - 825396 MB;
Motherboard: Alienware, 0H869M
Antivirus: Windows Defender, Disabled

My restore points continue to be lost the next day, I have to enter a manual restore point daily in order to have any at all. In System Properties, System Protection in ON and the disk space usage is 55.75GB.

My Diskeeper 12 is set to not automatic defrag.


----------



## Macboatmaster (Jan 15, 2010)

I know you say that Diskeeper12 is not set for defrag
However I still suspect it is Diskeeper. 
It certainly has a reputation for effecting the restore points, although the product says


> Volume Shadow Copy Service (VSS) Compatibility mode
> Diskeeper offers a VSS compatibility mode. This option minimizes growth of the VSS storage area caused by file movement, and it reduces the chances of older VSS and snapshots being purged.


Personally I would not recommend it installation on 8, I consider IMHO that most of it is completely unnecessary and there are far better ways of accomplishing a lot of what it offers, without the risk

I would therefore as a first step, totally disable it if that is possible, or providing if I am WRONG you have the means to reinstall it, I would uninstall it.

The other possibility is that you are using some other program which may be causing the problem - CCleaner for example

The third possibility is that VSS or other services have been changed from start type by some program which supposedly boosts the computers performance.

The last possible cause, is that you do, although it is not mentioned on the spec have a dual boot.

I do have such, with 8, 7 and XP (Triple boot) and that indeed will cause it, unless a registry entry is changed, as every time you boot into the older system the restore points on 8 will be deleted.

NOTE
I have just read the whole of the Diskeeper12 website pages and although it is ONLY MY opinion. It is a gimmick, as far as 8 is concerned. We have never had, again in my opinion, an operating system that is so good at managing its own resources . 
The defrag is one of the best Microsoft ever offered.

*The so called performance enhancers with Diskeeper*
1. Faster Boot up Times. New! 
2. Cures and prevents performance-robbing fragmentation before it happens. 
3. Diskeeper with IntelliWrite® is the first solution that will *prevent up to 85% of the fragmentation that causes PC slows, hangs and crashes*. It intelligently writes files all lined up side-by-side so system resources are not wasted by creating fragmentation. The results? Optimum PC speed and reliability
4. Optimizes Solid States Drives. New! 
5. Extends the productive life of your PC by up to 3 years. 
6. Speeds up your anti-virus scans by up to 52%.

and there are more than that, and they are, as I said in MY opinion little more than gimmicks.


----------



## pikespeakbob (Jun 10, 2004)

Macboatmaster said:


> I know you say that Diskeeper12 is not set for defrag
> However I still suspect it is Diskeeper.
> It certainly has a reputation for effecting the restore points, although the product says
> 
> ...


I don't have any dual boot and have been using Diskeeper for several years and have not experienced any lost restore points until now. I also have used (on several occasions) Smart Defrag 2 with no loss of restore points. Both programs are disabled now and I've added three manual restore points to see if the problem persists.


----------



## Elvandil (Aug 1, 2003)

There are many defraggers out there that are not VSS-compatible, or less so than they actually claim. Those will scramble or destroy restore points. Accessing system drives from other operating systems will have effects on the restore points, too.

As has been stated, Diskeeper is of no use in Windows since Vista (OK, I embellished a bit) and will in the long run simply wear the drive, accomplishing nothing. Defragging itself has fallen into near disrepute and though still needed from time to time, if done too often, slows things down considerably. Windows attempts to optimize file placement according to usage patterns. If defragging is done too often, there is no time to gather that data and the defrag is less than optimal.

The built-in, scheduled defragger of Windows is the best you will do. Contrived testing scenarios that show otherwise, especially if the claims are outlandish, don't prove anything except that someone knows very well how to lie with statistics.


----------



## Macboatmaster (Jan 15, 2010)

Also on another topic you appear to have had problems with System Restore points on 8 before.
Please accept my apologies if I am not correct.

1. Have you checked as per my original post please


> The third possibility is that VSS or other services have been changed from start type by some program which supposedly boosts the computers performance.


as I said on the original Volume Shadow Copy Service and also checking any dependencies.

2. AND I am sure you will not agree, but NORTON if you still have it, is another suspect.

3. Windows Defender is a full protection system on 8. It is the NEW Microsoft Security Essentials for 8 and is NOT the old Defender that on 7 was simply anti spyware/adware.
It will NOT enable while NORTON is active and indeed it maybe, while NORTON is installed.

4. I appreciate you may have been using Diskeeper for years - but NOT on 8 and as I said


> I have just read the whole of the Diskeeper12 website pages and although it is ONLY MY opinion. It is a gimmick, as far as 8 is concerned. We have never had, again in my opinion, an operating system that is so good at managing its own resources .
> The defrag is one of the best Microsoft ever offered.


5. That all said, you must make the decisions, as after all it is your computer.
Just give it a try, and if that and the check on services does not produce results, try uninstalling NORTON, you can presumably re-install if you have the product code or whatever Norton call it.

6. Finally there is no advantage in quoting back to us the whole of our posts, unless you wish to highlight a comment.

Please as I said let us know there are more tests that we can recommend


----------



## pikespeakbob (Jun 10, 2004)

Macboatmaster said:


> Also on another topic you appear to have had problems with System Restore points on 8 before.
> Please accept my apologies if I am not correct.
> 
> 1. Have you checked as per my original post please
> ...


I checked today to see if I lost any restore points after I had stopped Diskeeper 12 in Services and I only lost the first of the three manual restore points that I added, the other two still show up as restore points. I have now removed Diskeeper 12 (never did find the Diskeeper 12.msi file needed for the uninstall but managed to remove all of the files, including in the Registry). I am using Norton but it didn't seem to cause any restore problems as I never had Windows Defender or the Firewall program activated at the same time, will check tomorrow to see if I've lost any more restore points, I added a third today just in case...


----------



## Macboatmaster (Jan 15, 2010)

Are you sure you have lost them, is there a click show other restore points



> Finally there is no advantage in quoting back to us the whole of our posts, unless you wish to highlight a comment.


----------



## pikespeakbob (Jun 10, 2004)

There are no other restore points shown other than the ones I entered, since it shows room for 10 restore point entries I only assume that that feature will become active once all 10 are shown in the original window. Also, I seem to have lost my two other restore points, only Manual restore point-4 is shown, the other nine lines are vacant.


----------



## Macboatmaster (Jan 15, 2010)

1. Check the disk space allocated to the drive letter that windows is installed on.
I know you say it is 55GB overall - what is it on C drive, if that is where windows is.

2. Your system restore GUI is different to mine and to others I have seen on 8
From Microsoft
I would first suggest you to check if the "show more restore points" option is selected in the system restore options. If this option is not selected, it will show only the recent restore point created. Refer these steps:

a) Press Windows key + F, type "Recovery" in the search box
b) Click on the settings tile below the search box
c) Click on the recovery tile and click "configure system restore"
d) Click on the system restore button and click next 
e) By default, only the recent restore point will be displayed, click on the box against "show more restore points" below
f) Now check.

3. I THINK I DID ask before, have you checked the VSS and dependencies

4. Personally I think either another program, OR some services settings changed, or possibly system files corrrupted
A. you appear to have Gladinet File monitoring service - never heard of it - do not know what it does - could only find Gladinet back up.

B. Still could be Norton

C. Boot into system admin account cmd prompt with admin rights
type the command:
*net user Administrator /active:yes*

and confirm it by pressing Enter or Return
type
exit
key enter to leave cmd prompt
REBOOT into admin account
check restore points
create one.
See if that stays

IF SO it is a program or setting on your profile


----------



## pikespeakbob (Jun 10, 2004)

I don't know if I "fixed" it or not, I de-populated & re-populated the radio buttons in System Properties>System Protection>Configure to turn off and then on again system protection for the C drive, it now shows some restore points and also the "show more restore points" which it didn't have before. I had shut down the desktop for about two days and all the restore points were kept but when left on one restore point per day was removed but it could find the system restore point. No sure what's going on.
I did come across something I thought strange as the File History refers to Win 7, perhaps this is because I upgraded to Win 8 Pro from Win 7 Home Premium?
The Gladinet program is from Nuance and the Cloud Connector, I don't use it.
I'm not sure how to check the VSS and dependencies unless you mean the one in Services which does show it running.
I've attached a few .jpg's of screen snapshots.
I'll continue to monitor the restore points for a few more days to see if the trouble persists.


----------



## Macboatmaster (Jan 15, 2010)

1.Well unless I have missed it I cannot see the answer to my point 1. (One) in my post 9, either on your screenshot or in your actual typed reply

2.


> I had shut down the desktop for about two days and all the restore points were kept but when left on one restore point per day was removed but it could find the system restore point. No sure what's going on.


IMHO related to my point above - Windows will delete the oldest restore point, when it needs the space to create one.

3. Now you have established that it does retain restore points, and there is SHOW others, I do not think you need to check services - but YES I meant 


> Have you checked as per my original post please
> 
> Quote:
> The third possibility is that VSS or other services have been changed from start type by some program which supposedly boosts the computers performance.
> *as I said on the original Volume Shadow Copy Service and also checking any dependencies.*


and the dependencies - click the dependency tab on VSS when you open that.
However as I said I think that all will be in order there.

4. ON 8 in Control Panel is Windows 7 File Recovery
It is named that as Microsoft have replaced the backup and restore, so to speak with File History and you may make a custom image on File History, so that if you have to REFRESH, or indeed clean install you may then recover your custom image.

My guess is that you have commissioned Windows 7 backup - it is still 8 of course, but use Windows 7 File recovery only for system image and repair disc.#

I will have to check later on my 8, as I am 7 now (Triple boot 8, 7, and XP) and am going out NOW with HWMBO for a meal


----------



## pikespeakbob (Jun 10, 2004)

Well as of today (4/12), my restore points show only the manual one from 4/11 and if all restore points are shown there is only one more (system). I upped my 2TB OS drive configure space from 25% to 30% (556GB) in hopes that it will show more restore points, it even lost the restore points from the latest MS update downloads.
My Win 7 laptop shows 17 restore points and 7 more when asked to show more restore points (total of 24) even though the OS drive is 500GB and 9% current usage 2%). I'll continue to monitor the situation before I show it "fixed."


----------



## Macboatmaster (Jan 15, 2010)

1. Well you most certainly do NOT need anything like that


> Well as of today (4/12), my restore points show only the manual one from 4/11 and if all restore points are shown there is only one more (system). *I upped my 2TB OS drive configure space from 25% to 30% (556GB*


The point I was querying and I apologise for labouring the point is what space was ALLOCATED to C drive itself, as the report said 55GB overall

However clearly it is NOT that.

2. I think you have covered it but the use of 3rd party disk management programs can also cause problems with the restore points
As it is an SSD drive are you using TRIM which is automatic in 8 or have you a 3rd party SSD management program

3. It could be corruption of some sort in the pagefile and hiberfil file

4. I still tend towards the possible effect of the programs previously discussed, including as I have said NORTON

as indeed HERE.
http://community.norton.com/t5/Othe...System-Restore-Point-or-Backup-in/td-p/783530

There are certainly more recent reports but I cannot find them readily NOW and the easy option is possibly I think to test it by disabling any such features on NORTON


----------



## pikespeakbob (Jun 10, 2004)

As to your point 2: I also had been using on a trial basis, Smart Defrag 2, a free program that seemed to work quite well and was very fast. I have also removed it along with Diskeeper. I don't have a SSD (if you're referring to a Solid State Disk), just a plain old 2TB Seagate HD.

Point 3: Haven't checked these files.

Point 4: The link to the community in Norton seems to refer to a program in Norton Utilities and is not in my Norton 360 (latest version). I did however, disable the auto-backup feature as well as the auto-disk optimization feature to see if it/they could be the culprit.

When I checked my restore points this am (before doing the above) I had lost my one manual restore point but there was a system restore point in it's place. Added two more manual restore points today and will check back on Monday to see the results.

Cheers


----------



## Macboatmaster (Jan 15, 2010)

1. Well I will have to throw the towel in on this POINT


> I don't have a SSD (if you're referring to a Solid State Disk), just a plain old 2TB Seagate HD.


I just cannot think what made me say You have an SSD drive.
I have been dealing with another topic on restore points and can only imagine that I mixed up yours WITHOUT an SSD and the other with one.

*Please accept my apologies.*

2.Norton 360 - quotes from THEIR site for 360


> *PC need a pick me up? Keep it running fast and trouble-free with our exclusive clean up and tuneup features.*
> 
> Fixes common problems that can slow down or cause your PC to crash or freeze.
> Gets rid of unnecessary files and optimizes your hard drive.
> Frees up system memory.







> *PC Tuneup* - Fixes common computer problems, frees up memory, removes unnecessary files and cleans up your hard drive.


IMHO
A classic case of a rose is just as sweet by any other name.

At this stage of the topic MY ADVICE - uninstall Norton, if I am wrong you can reinstall it


----------



## Macboatmaster (Jan 15, 2010)

pipespeakbob



> Added two more manual restore points today and will check back on Monday to see the results


I wondered how you went on.
Did the restore points remain OK, or had they been deleted again on reboot.


----------



## pikespeakbob (Jun 10, 2004)

I'm beginning to believe that there's a mystical creature in Win 8 that controls the restore points, removing the manual ones after a few days and only keeping the System and Backup ones. After reading from several sites concerning the Win 8 restore points it seems that it's a common problem that everyone seems to be having, the losing of restore points. I know it's different from my Win 7 laptop (which keeps all of my restore points and doesn't delete them unless I do it manually or I run out of allocated space). It looks like Win 8 (Pro) creates an auto restore point (System) every 7 days, if this is so then all is good. I've looked but haven't been able to find how to check any settings on this procedure so will assume it's the "Kraken" that's hiding in Win 8. I've attached another screenshot of my current restore points and the the latest auto restore point is 4/25, I'll check back after 7 days to see if another one appears and will then probably close the case.


----------



## Macboatmaster (Jan 15, 2010)

I tested my system.
I am not entirely sure it is really representative of yours as mine is a self build with a triple boot of 8 on one disc and 7 and xp on another.

However my Windows 8 also retains only three restore points. One is a system restore point created every 24 hrs IF a restore point is not created for other reasons eg. certain updates or a driver or software - program installation

The other is a system image restore and the third is a self created point.

It appears to me NOW mainly as a result of my research and NOT within my previous knowledge that the 
unused space on the allocated space for system restore is always kept and NEVER filled by more restore points.

I also now believe that the used space changes, as the data in the Volume Shadow copy is re-written even although a new points is not created.

It is all rather very technical but I found most of the answers here
http://social.technet.microsoft.com...f/thread/4fe38107-4bab-4860-8083-ec3cfbfc5a7e


----------



## pikespeakbob (Jun 10, 2004)

I think I'm getting closer to getting an automatic restore point, if I can only figure out how to solve the error mystery as shown in my latest attachment. I had gone to the Task Scheduler Library>Microsoft>Windows>System Restore and put in what I thought were the correct actions but it keeps showing that the operation is refused, don't know why, yet, but will keep changing the actions to see if I can find the culprit(s) that are causing this not to run. As I'm always on AC power on my desktop I don't think I need the AC option, even if I'm using a UPS but will change it if needed.


----------



## Macboatmaster (Jan 15, 2010)

The immediate thought that comes to mind is Task Scheduler - right click - run as admin.

If it is not that, then I am sorry to say that any further advice would not be from any knowledge, but simply a shot in the dark or the results of a google.


----------

