# Home Generators



## Haldur (Apr 28, 2012)

After two years in a row, having power outages lasting 2 to 3 weeks each (with others in the same area going without power for much longer than that) we've decided to invest in a home generator. But a lot of the stuff I've been seeing has me totally confused.

First of all the basics: we live in a split-ranch in the New York State. Hurricane Sandy was only the latest disaster -- the previous year, we lost power for about as long simply because of an early freeze, causing trees to go down all over the place, and consequently, downing power lines. The house is a 3 bedroom split-ranch with natural gas, central air, all the usual appliances, a full sized fridge and minfridge, electric garage door, and 2 chair lifts so that my mom (who's handicapped and ill) can get up and down the stairs (it has its own battery, which died in our last storm because the battery backup is not designed to last for more than a couple of days, much less 3 weeks).

She wants to power EVERYTHING in the house with the generator, not just critical appliances and a few lights. I don't think she is capable of dealing with a partial generator because she gets confused and does stupid things (she had the heat on on the hottest day of the year -- no joke).

Anyway, here's a few questions that so far I've been unable to figure out:

1. What is the difference between a stand-by generator and a whole home generator. They SEEM like they've got to do the same thing, power your home when you lose electricity, both can be hooked up to your gas lines. But one store seems to sell both and the prices are vastly different for the same KW rating.

2. How do I tell what KWage I should go for? One article says that 20 KW is good for a small home, and if you want to power everything, you may want to go as high as 48. I'm not sure how reliable that source is though. We don't have a large home but it it's not small either.

3. I've already talked to an electrician (the same one we used to install the central air, and for that he was, we thought, reasonable). He gave us an estimate for just the eletrical work (He told us that we'd also have to hire a plumber, and buy the generator, of course). The estimate was $5,775.00,which seems outside of the realm of 'reasonable'. But I don't exactly know that for sure. Is that as ridiculous as it sounds?

4. 2 friends of mine have recommended Generac generators saying that 'they are the best'. My brother (and I don't know his sources) claims that Generac is one of the worst brands, that they are "cheaply made in China". He's also shopping for a generator, btw, so that may be something that he came across in his research (but then again, with any product, even if you have 99.9% reliability, you are going to have someone get a lemon). Is there any truth to my brother's concerns regarding Generac?

Anyway, we are still in the early stages of this process, but I want to get this done before the fall. Thanks in advance for any information or insight you can lend.


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## Drabdr (Nov 26, 2007)

Hello Haldur!



Haldur said:


> After two years in a row, having power outages lasting 2 to 3 weeks each (with others in the same area going without power for much longer than that) we've decided to invest in a home generator. But a lot of the stuff I've been seeing has me totally confused.
> 
> First of all the basics: we live in a split-ranch in the New York State. Hurricane Sandy was only the latest disaster -- the previous year, we lost power for about as long simply because of an early freeze, causing trees to go down all over the place, and consequently, downing power lines. The house is a 3 bedroom split-ranch with natural gas, central air, all the usual appliances, a full sized fridge and minfridge, electric garage door, and 2 chair lifts so that my mom (who's handicapped and ill) can get up and down the stairs (it has its own battery, which died in our last storm because the battery backup is not designed to last for more than a couple of days, much less 3 weeks).
> 
> She wants to power EVERYTHING in the house with the generator, not just critical appliances and a few lights. I don't think she is capable of dealing with a partial generator because she gets confused and does stupid things (she had the heat on on the hottest day of the year -- no joke).





> 1. What is the difference between a stand-by generator and a whole home generator. They SEEM like they've got to do the same thing, power your home when you lose electricity, both can be hooked up to your gas lines. But one store seems to sell both and the prices are vastly different for the same KW rating.


I generally operate on the principle that you get what you pay for. There may be some switchgear/ connections/ etc. included with the whole home generator and not the other one. If you can find them, it may be a good idea to post some links of what you're looking at.



> 2. How do I tell what KWage I should go for? One article says that 20 KW is good for a small home, and if you want to power everything, you may want to go as high as 48. I'm not sure how reliable that source is though. We don't have a large home but it it's not small either.


Well... there are two ways you can go. If you want to make it easy, and since you stated you wanted full load backup, just look at the main breaker size feeding the house, and that is the generator. It will provide, but you may pay a lot of money for that size. It will provide power to the house equivalent to the electric source.

Secondly, you can make a rough estimation of the amperage of the items you want to power up. Then multiply by 1.5.

Lastly, get the house going with everything turned on, and have an electrician measure the full load amps. You could multiply that by 1.2 or something like that.



> 3. I've already talked to an electrician (the same one we used to install the central air, and for that he was, we thought, reasonable). He gave us an estimate for just the eletrical work (He told us that we'd also have to hire a plumber, and buy the generator, of course). The estimate was $5,775.00,which seems outside of the realm of 'reasonable'. But I don't exactly know that for sure. Is that as ridiculous as it sounds?


That's hard for me to say. Did it include the generator? What kind of generator connections/switchgear?



> 4. 2 friends of mine have recommended Generac generators saying that 'they are the best'. My brother (and I don't know his sources) claims that Generac is one of the worst brands, that they are "cheaply made in China". He's also shopping for a generator, btw, so that may be something that he came across in his research (but then again, with any product, even if you have 99.9% reliability, you are going to have someone get a lemon). Is there any truth to my brother's concerns regarding Generac?


That I cannot answer. What I would do is check with neighbors/ people living in your area. Find out which ones they would recommend/ not recommend.


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## Haldur (Apr 28, 2012)

1. Here's what I saw -- they have search criteria on generators differentiating between standby and whole-home -- http://www.electricgeneratorsdirect.com/quick_search.php
I have to admit that I don't understand 90% of what everything means. I'm completely new to this. Heck, I'm not even the home owner, my mom is, I've been renting apartments for most of my life and never have had to deal with anything even remotely like this. I'm just taking care of this primarily for my mom who I've been taking care of while she's ill.

2. I know that the electrician had to upgrade our electrical box from 100 to 200 amps for the central air. But I'll see if I can find more info on that (I may have to dig or make phone calls).

3. That didn't include the generator, nor hooking it up to the gas. This is from the estimate they sent me:


> Furnish labor to wire and connect a standby generator. Install all wire connections for this installation. Transfer switch to be located in garage and generator to be installed behind garage in the area of the AC unit:
> 
> Electrical: $5,775.00
> 
> ...


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## buffoon (Jul 16, 2008)

just to address this part


Haldur said:


> 4. 2 friends of mine have recommended Generac generators saying that 'they are the best'. My brother (and I don't know his sources) claims that Generac is one of the worst brands, that they are "cheaply made in China". He's also shopping for a generator, btw, so that may be something that he came across in his research (but then again, with any product, even if you have 99.9% reliability, you are going to have someone get a lemon). Is there any truth to my brother's concerns regarding Generac?


different people will have different likes and dislikes. But that doesn't justify such a devastating verdict on Generac. They have a good reputation as far away as over here and, last I heard, produce their power units in Wisconsin.


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## buffoon (Jul 16, 2008)

........to add, genny-powering a whole house or household with every appliance running at full blast (the easiest "safety" calculation but often the most unrealistic scenario) will be cost intensive in the price of the generator model alone. 

I have no idea of the cost of electrical work in your part of the world, here it would be considerably less. But that helps you not at all, of course. Your citation doesn't really show what sort of electrical work is entailed (by your electrician's quote) but it can hardly mean rewiring the whole house. Rather there needs to be a "safe" power transfer switching unit (most often stipulated by local authorities) that prevents power back-leak from

1. either the genny-power into the grid
2. or grid power into the genny

when both run at the same time (which can happen, however briefly, once mains power comes back on).

These switches come in varieties from manual to sophisticated automation and get dearer with the more they can do. And with a theoretical scenario as I query above, you'll want to run all circuits at top capacity and at the same time, thus involving the probably most expensive switch of the lot, alone.

Maybe it would be an idea to consult your mom again and see whether there's any leeway in her demand of EVERYTHING. Because in the real case scenario of everyday use (even in a hurricane) you'll otherwise find yourselves with such an overcapacity (that'll never get used), that you may well chafe at the thus incurred deadened capital investment for the rest of your lives. 

As for the rest, heeding drabdr's advice is always good.


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## Drabdr (Nov 26, 2007)

Thanks Haldur!

Here is a decent link outlining the differences between the two:
http://www.cleveland.com/insideout/index.ssf/2012/10/before_your_buy_a_generator_do.html

Generally, the differences are the amount of power that can be provided, and the type of fuel used in each type of generator.

If your home service is 200 amp and you want a whole home coverage, that is the size service you will be looking for. That is about 48,000 watts, or 48 kW. That's assuming a 240 VAC service, which is typical in the states.

All you have to do is look at the breaker size in the main panel. It will be stamped on the breaker/main feed.



> 3. That didn't include the generator, nor hooking it up to the gas. This is from the estimate they sent me.


Thanks for providing the quote. Honestly, I really have no idea one way or another; as all that is driven by local market effects, supply/demand, etc. The only way to know is to get some competitive prices from other electricians.

They will need to know what kW generator you want, as that will dictate the wire size they will need to run.

My recommendation is to figure out what you want to spend. If you want whole home coverage and spending 15k to get it is OK, they you go from there. If there is a maximum amount you are willing to spend, you must start with that dollar amount and go from there.


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## Haldur (Apr 28, 2012)

FYI, a different person was just here, and gave us a much more reasonable estimate. He (like the other electrician) is also recommending a 20 kW generator, but he actually looked at our house first. For everything. We don't have an official estimate yet, just something off the top of his head. Including the generator, all electrical work (including moving our electrical panel to fit in the 'cut-off'(?)), and a Genpad (which probably we don't need, since we have a blacktop walkway that it will fit on), he said that we probably will be looking at $8400, plus this guy handles maintenance (other guy did not). He describes himself as selling complete turnkey systems, which sounds good to me.

We'll get a couple more estimates at least. My brother is also getting an estimate for his house today from someone else.


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## Drabdr (Nov 26, 2007)

Just make sure the person installing it is licensed, and that you get the permits and all. This is NOT hanging a fan in a game room.  For insurance/ liability reasons, make sure you're covered and anyone that does the work has permits and has it inspected.

You can go with the 20kV; just recognize that is all it will provide. 

So you should be able to "live" off of that, but don't think you can turn everything in the house on.


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## Haldur (Apr 28, 2012)

Part of this is to get everything straight in my own mind.

Got two new estimates -- last one informed me that all I'd need would be 13 KW (but the estimate is for 14 KW). When I mentioned to him that everyone else was trying to sell me 20 KW, he got out some kind of electrical meter and 'showed' me that with the AC on, the house was currently using much less than the 13 he was going to sell me. His price (which includes everything including permits) comes to about $9,800. They claim that they arrange for all of the inspections (I think they claim that there are 3 separate inspections), filing the permits, etc.

The other estimate I got which was for a 20 KW, and includes everything, including the electrical inspection, but not the plumbing (which a friend told me should come to between $1500 to $2000) comes to about $8674. Unlike the other peole, they won't file the permits for me, but will give me a packet to file.

Other differences between them is that the ones with the 14KW generator want to put it on a concrete slab 5 feet from the house because the house is wooden. The 20KW people want to put it 3 Feet from the house without a concrete slab (because I have a blacktop walkway there). The people who say that it has to be 5 feet away claim that this is because of Generac's recommendations (and I did check that, and that is correct -- Generac states that it has to be at least 5 feet away from any potentially flammable material, such as wood. Apparently the 20KW people were not aware of that).
Also, the 14 KW generator includes a 'cold weather kit', whatever that means.

So now I'm even more confused. Because the 20 KW is bigger, I'd have guessed that the 14 KW one would have been cheaper, but it doesn't seem like it's THAT much cheaper (considering I'd have to add at least $1500 for plumbing on the 20 KW one). The salesman for the 14KW generator was going on and on about how they use copper wiring that is threaded, and not aluminum wiring or single-strand wiring which can break easily from the weather. It was a lot more of a hard-sell, but I know I need to try to stay objective and go with the facts -- just because I don't necessarily like the salesman, doesn't mean that he's lying or he's not giving me the best buy.

Anyway, I'm currently leaning towards the 14 KW guy in spite of his more annoying salesmanship. If the last company I contacted gets back in touch with me soon enough, I'll have another estimate, but I don't want to wait too long to get this started.


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## Drabdr (Nov 26, 2007)

First... a small Kudo to you. You do a great job providing details and information to work from. :up:

By the very fact that you are discovering the vast difference in the quotes and what is provided, is why everyone needs to get different quotes on _everything_.

Yes, the further away you can get it from the house, the better. Too... I imagine they make some noise, so it's good to get some distance.

I would have to check my Code Book, but there are limited applications you can use aluminum wire anymore. It's good that they specified that.

The guy who measured the line... did what I would have. I'm assuming he placed an ampmeter on your main line and measured the amperage pull. That's what I was was trying to get at earlier, but probably did a terrible job of. There is "actual" usage, and "nominal" usage. He (or she) measured the actual. Just going off the main service size, is nominal. Now... did he account for the wheelchair ramp/ lift amperage when he had the A/C on? Do you remember what amperage he measured?

In the end, it's about what you're wanting to spend for the generator. The bigger size gives you more power, but will cost more. If 14kW will suffice, go for it.

FWIW... I've always heard a saying about preachers. They're either good in the pulpit, or good outside of the pulpit; but never both.  So I'm kind of leery of really good salespeople. But you give me a good tradesman/mechanic, etc., I can certainly overlook their sales flaws.

Just get everything in writing (including time frames, due dates, that the contractor is responsible for insurance, work passing permits, etc. ) Also, that electrician should be able to provide some referrals. I would take 10 minutes and call on them.


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## madoshea (Aug 1, 2013)

Install a transfer switch to a gen. pack that swithes when power goes down. find the total wattage the home uses and match it to the gen. use carb. for nat. gas or lp. Instalation for labor here for that inst. is around 1,850. USD plus parts.


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## madoshea (Aug 1, 2013)

madoshea said:


> Install a transfer switch to a gen. pack that swithes when power goes down. find the total wattage the home uses and match it to the gen. use carb. for nat. gas or lp. Instalation for labor here for that inst. is around 1,850. USD plus parts.


 I would use the GE 20,000 watt SymponyII unit. It is the most cost effective whole unit. add cost for pad most don't think about. Time to install is around one day.And add for parts for connection. Refer to previous post for the who's and whats, They are correct. That unit comes with transfer ,lv box for t-stsat and control unit. One smart puppie.
Home depo sells them w/no shipping.


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## Glennabilly (Aug 29, 2010)

Hi Haldur, Why not go solar with deep storage batteries, Iam not trying to be a smart arse & I do live in Australia and only use solar for lights steped down to 12v & I use arg pipe coiled on the roof for hot water, we dont have snow problems our winter ranges 18c - 28c but solar panels would cut your costs down considerable have a go Glenn.


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## Haldur (Apr 28, 2012)

I live in a high snow area (upstate New York) and it's my understanding that solar is not as economical (at least around here). I need a lot more than lights in any case. There's a handicapped person living in the house who needs her chair lift, and we need appliances as well. 

My decision is down to two companies. I'm primarily waiting on references to make my decision.

1. EZ Electric -- They recommended the smallest generator -- "Generac 14 kw Air Cooled Standby Generator Pre-Packaged w/200 amp transfer switch". I did call the electrician back, and he supplied a reference, and answered my question regarding the size of the generator. Essentially, he said that the house, with the AC on was drawing just 4 kw, and he went through the various appliances and said that the total would be much less than 13 kw (he claims that the 14 kw is actually effectively just 13 kw). He also explained that a larger generator would be more expensive to run, so I'm better off with less overkill.

Reference was very positive, said he would use them again, said that they cleaned up everything afterwards very well. His house is slightly smaller than mine, but he got the same generator but he's a fairly new customer so he hasn't experienced one of our big blackouts yet.

He pointed out (unlike all the other electricians) that Generac requires their generators to be at least 5 feet from any wood (we have a wood house). When I questioned that, because other people wanted to place it closer to the house, he pointed me to the Generac website (which does confirm what he told me).

Only negative is that when I normalize for the same sized generator and permit costs (which I only have an approximation for, and that they are including in the price, but the other companies are not), they come out to be the most expensive. But they are still a top choice because they are very convincing of their knowledge.
Total price (including plumbing and fees): $9,828.62 

2. Clarkstown Electric: This is the only company that I could actually find an online review for, and the person writing the review was positive and stressed their reasonable prices (they are certainly the least expensive of the companies I found).

They want to sell me a "Generac generator model #5873 17 kw automatic standby gas generator". They want to put the generator 36" from the wall, on a bed of pea gravel 'per Generac specification'. When I told them about what I had see regarding Generac generators and wooden walls, they said I was wrong. What I suspect is that Generac is more cautious than local ordinance. But in fairness, everyone else (other than EZ Electric) wanted to place the generator the same distance from the wall. They claim that they have their work inspected regularly and it's never been an issue. and that I misinterpreted Generac.

Their estimate includes everything EXCEPT for permit fees (which I've been told by others should be no more than $200 total, but which EZ electric apparently are going to charge me $475.00, so that's a small plus in Clarkstown's favor.
Their price is $8980.00 total

I'm awaiting references right now from Clarkstown.

EZ Electric did say, when I was questioning them, that they'd happily sell me a larger generator if I wanted it. But obviously, the electrician thought I'd be better off with the smaller one.


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## Haldur (Apr 28, 2012)

FYI, I went with EZ Electric. They were more expensive, and their salesmanship was a bit on the irritating side. But a few things clinched it for me anyway. First, a friend (who did not use them), I got tired of waiting for Clarkstown to supply references, but mostly it was that they had convinced me of their technical knowledge. Plus after all of my badgering of them about the size of the generator they finally had me convinced as well. They could have very easily tried to sell me a larger generator but they didn't. I also mentioned some negative stories I had heard (not about them specifically, but about problems that others had) and they explained why that had happened, and why it would not happen with them. And their references were all positive (I actually would have been surprised otherwise).

I think I gave them a hard time, but the fact was that they were charging more money, so I needed more convincing that they were worth it.

Thank you everyone for your help. The work should start in 2 weeks.


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## madoshea (Aug 1, 2013)

I'm sure they didn't mind. They know You want quality back up when the power goes down.


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## Drabdr (Nov 26, 2007)

Haldur said:


> FYI, I went with EZ Electric. They were more expensive, and their salesmanship was a bit on the irritating side. But a few things clinched it for me anyway. First, a friend (who did not use them), I got tired of waiting for Clarkstown to supply references, but mostly it was that they had convinced me of their technical knowledge. Plus after all of my badgering of them about the size of the generator they finally had me convinced as well. They could have very easily tried to sell me a larger generator but they didn't. I also mentioned some negative stories I had heard (not about them specifically, but about problems that others had) and they explained why that had happened, and why it would not happen with them. And their references were all positive (I actually would have been surprised otherwise).
> 
> I think I gave them a hard time, but the fact was that they were charging more money, so I needed more convincing that they were worth it.
> 
> Thank you everyone for your help. The work should start in 2 weeks.


Thanks for the update. :up: Let us know how the project goes.


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## Koot (Nov 25, 2007)

Is the transfer switch being installed a manual transfer switch, or an automatic transfer switch? There's a big difference in the two types.


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## Drabdr (Nov 26, 2007)

Koot said:


> Is the transfer switch being installed a manual transfer switch, or an automatic transfer switch? There's a big difference in the two types.


Agreed. Even if it is extra, I would pay for an automatic.


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## Koot (Nov 25, 2007)

Drabdr said:


> Agreed. Even if it is extra, I would pay for an automatic.


I have not read this entire thread, so the transfer switch the OP is getting may have already been discussed.

If the transfer switch being installed is manual (instead of automatic) then that means the backup 'system' will be a manual process, which means a human must physically pull or throw the handle on the [manual] transfer switch. There is nothing wrong with the system being manual, but some owners are unaware of what they are getting. The only way a backup generator system can be 'automatically' brought online to replace the [out-of-service] utility's service is to have an 'automatic transfer switch' (known as an 'ATS') in lieu of a manual transfer switch. An ATS is much more expensive because it has sensors to detect low (or no) voltage and the ability to automatically (without human intervention) switch contacts.


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## Haldur (Apr 28, 2012)

It will be an automatic transfer switch. Supposedly it takes about 20 seconds for the generator to be at full power after a power outage, which is fine. Also, there's supposedly a weekly(?) self-test where the generator switches on automatically and then turns itself off.


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## Koot (Nov 25, 2007)

Excellent...


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## madoshea (Aug 1, 2013)

I PREFER AUTOMATIC.THE DOWN TIME IS GREATLY REDUCED AND YOU DON'T HAVE TO GO OUT IN THE WEATHER TO START UP THE UNIT. PS I used caps lock to hear what I typed. LOL


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## Haldur (Apr 28, 2012)

I have an update:
Installation went smoothly, except that the electricians came back 2 days later because, apparently, they remembered something that they had forgotten to do the first time (all I know is they brought some thick copper wire and hooked it up while I watched -- took about 10 minutes or so). I'm glad they remembered before the inspection.

We've had both the electrical and gas inspection. Electrical inspector said that the job looked very professional, and that the 14 kw generator was the perfect size for my house. Idiot gas inspector came in and did the inspection and left without ever knocking on my door (I had left the garage door open).

Today is the startup in about 2 to 3 hours or so (assuming they are on time). If that goes well, they'll make an appointment for the final inspection, and then I pay them. So far I've only had to pay the cost for the generator itself.

I do have one more decision to make. They have a choice of two different service contracts. One visit a year for annual maintenance for $320.00 or multiple visits for $550.00. I'm thinking that the annual maintenance contract is probably just fine. But it's the type of thing that you won't know you need until you need it.

/edit startup went with one hiccup -- when they started up the generator, oil leaked all over the place. But they've fixed it.


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## Koot (Nov 25, 2007)

Annual maintenance for $320.00!!! What is the maintenance they will be doing?


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## Haldur (Apr 28, 2012)

"Change the oil, Check/change air filters, spark plugs, battery, check and remove corrosion, tighten terminals and wiring and do a complete run cycle of the generator"

What should it cost?


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## Drabdr (Nov 26, 2007)

What are they really Maintaining there? It sounds kind of expensive.

Check the manual and see wha they recommend.


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## Koot (Nov 25, 2007)

Haldur said:


> "Change the oil, Check/change air filters, spark plugs, battery, check and remove corrosion, tighten terminals and wiring and do a complete run cycle of the generator"
> 
> What should it cost?


It should cost far, far, far, far less!!!!! And 'multiple visits' - what the hell for?

That would be like buying a typical $30k vehicle and paying $1,000 for once-a-year routine service, or $1,700 for multiple routine visits in a year...when the car is only driven 300 miles per year to church and the grocery store by a little old lady.

You should not have to change the oil and oil filter but once every 2 years - at most. And there is no need to even 'check' the oil, because it should not be leaking (or you'd notice it), or burning oil (or you'd see the smoke). You should not have to change the air filter but once every 3-5 years because you'll seldom use (or test) the generator. Same for the spark plugs. Corrosion? Do you take your car into the shop to check your battery for corrosion and to tighten the terminals? Do a complete run cycle? You should be doing that yourself... Someone is taking advantage of you. Maybe your warranty does not apply without this outrageous service contract. Dunno.


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## madoshea (Aug 1, 2013)

If it is not for guarantee on unit I would say no. The electrical work and materials have a one year guarentee. pay Yourself instead. Service like a lawnmower.


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