# How did they get Windows 10 on these computers - legally?



## Alex Ethridge (Apr 10, 2000)

I know a lady who bought about ten old Dell computers from a pawn shop for $90 each, all loaded with Windows 10. They originally came with Windows Vista as the Vista COA is on all of them.

Windows 10 is activated and I have reason to believe they are all genuine. So how does it happen that they all have Windows 10 on them? The reason I'm asking is I would like to wipe one of them clean and start over from scratch. So how is that done?

Selling them at $90, I'm sure the pawn shop didn't buy a copy of Windows 10 for them.


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## texasbullet (Jun 11, 2014)

To activate Windows 10 on a Vista machine requires for you to buy an activation key unless the computer came with Windows 7 or 8.1 then the activation is free.
Also might be a refurbished computer.


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## plankton23 (Feb 8, 2018)

Alex Ethridge said:


> I know a lady who bought about ten old Dell computers from a pawn shop for $90 each, all loaded with Windows 10. They originally came with Windows Vista as the Vista COA is on all of them.


My old neighbor bought a referb Dell online from Walmart that was the same deal. Only difference is this COA on the box was for W10 but looking up model via Dells support site said it came with vista.

So I don't know if the referb PC's get a special BIOS, cuz this dell I have does...A13 which is not listed anywhere as a BIOS update. Then get a special OS that MS supplies retailers to install on referb PC's with PK. Those are some big "IF's".


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## Goddess-Bastet (Apr 26, 2019)

They may be activated illegally using a volume license key & the first thing a buyer knows about this is when Windows requires activation again.


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## Cookiegal (Aug 27, 2003)

I suppose it's possible they were upgraded from Vista to Window 7 for free when that offer was originally available and then eventually to Windows 10 for free as well. But of course if it went from Vista to Windows 10 then there is no free way to do it.

But we can't know without seeing a validation report or at least knowing what type of license the machines have.


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## crjdriver (Jan 2, 2001)

Alex Ethridge said:


> The reason I'm asking is I would like to wipe one of them clean and start over from scratch. So how is that done?


If win10 was legally installed and activated, all you need to do is install win10. Win10 will activate itself; no need for you to do anything. Again this is IF it is a valid install.


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## Johnny b (Nov 7, 2016)

Technically, hasn't the offer for a free upgrade to Win 10 expired long ago?
So what is 'legal'?


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## Couriant (Mar 26, 2002)

And since it's a pawn shop, they may not even dealt with the installation of the Windows 10 OS, perhaps it was someone who sold it to them.

As to the license, there is a command you can do and we can look at it for you to see what they used.

In an elevated command prompt:

*Licensingdiag.exe -report %userprofile%\desktop\report.txt -log %userprofile%\desktop\repfiles.cab*

After running the command, two files will appear on your desktop, report.txt and repfiles.cab. Please open the report.txt file in Notepad and copy and paste the contents here. The repfiles.cab is only a backup file and can be ignored for the time being.


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## texasbullet (Jun 11, 2014)

Johnny b said:


> Technically, hasn't the offer for a free upgrade to Win 10 expired long ago?
> So what is 'legal'?


Windows 10 is still free if your computer has Windows 7 or Windows 8.1 installed in it. Microsoft has not yet stated that the free install has expired.
Windows 10 is not free if your computer has Windows Vista or earlier OS versions.


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## managed (May 24, 2003)

Also you can not upgrade directly from Vista to 10, you have to backup your data and then do a clean install of 10 then restore the data. That means there is no free way to do it, a Vista key will not work in 10.


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## Alex Ethridge (Apr 10, 2000)

texasbullet said:


> To activate Windows 10 on a Vista machine requires for you to buy an activation key unless the computer came with Windows 7 or 8.1 then the activation is free.
> Also might be a refurbished computer.


I am certain that is not how it happened with these machines as they could not sell them for a profit at $90 each. These machines were all clean-loaded and configured identically.


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## Alex Ethridge (Apr 10, 2000)

Goddess-Bastet said:


> They may be activated illegally using a volume license key & the first thing a buyer knows about this is when Windows requires activation again.


I don't think that is the case here as I have seen this and similar over the years and never a one was ever tagged by MS as not genuine.


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## Cookiegal (Aug 27, 2003)

Alex Ethridge said:


> never a one was ever tagged by MS as not genuine.


That doesn't mean anything. There are many activation loaders that are never detected.

You should run the report Couriant requested on one of them. That will tell us a lot. Also you can do this:

In search type PowerShell then right-click *Windows PowerShell* and choose *run as Administrator *then enter the following command:

*slmgr.vbs /dlv*

and press Enter. Post a screenshot of the results please.


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## Alex Ethridge (Apr 10, 2000)

Cookiegal said:


> I suppose it's possible they were upgraded from Vista to Window 7 for free when that offer was originally available and then eventually to Windows 10 for free as well. But of course if it went from Vista to Windows 10 then there is no free way to do it.


That certainly is one way that I thought of but I am still wondering if there is another. Something that just now occurred to me is this: The computers are all identical. They could have purchased a license for one computer, then imaged that drive, then restored the image to all the other identical computers. Yes, not legal but _I have seen it work_.


> But we can't know without seeing a validation report or at least knowing what type of license the machines have.


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## Alex Ethridge (Apr 10, 2000)

Cookiegal said:


> That doesn't mean anything. There are many activation loaders that are never detected.
> 
> You should run the report Couriant requested on one of them. That will tell us a lot. Also you can do this:
> 
> ...


I didn't know of such a report until Couriant mentioned it and didn't know how to get it until your post. Thanks, I will. I am currently totally remodeling my little workshop with a built-in long work bench and shelves so it may be a few days before I can do that.


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## Alex Ethridge (Apr 10, 2000)

Johnny b said:


> Technically, hasn't the offer for a free upgrade to Win 10 expired long ago?
> So what is 'legal'?


It still works. I've installed it probably 5 or 8 in the last 12 months.


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## Johnny b (Nov 7, 2016)

texasbullet said:


> ............. Microsoft has not yet stated that the free install has expired.
> ......................


Dated March 7, 2021 
According to this Microsoft link, that is incorrect.

(sorry forgot the link  )
https://answers.microsoft.com/en-us...for-free/2159c2a7-a925-4fa3-9a03-08a5e1ecf891

It's still free to those that use 'assisted technologies'.

MS simply doesn't enforce the end of the deal for everyone else.

So....what does 'legal' mean? (  )


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## Johnny b (Nov 7, 2016)

Alex Ethridge said:


> It still works. I've installed it probably 5 or 8 in the last 12 months.


Yes, it 'works'.
I've installed it myself as a free upgrade, too. More than once.

That's not the point.
Technically, is it legal to install Win 10 as a free upgrade after MS ended the offer, even if MS doesn't enforce it?

I wouldn't think so.


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## Cookiegal (Aug 27, 2003)

What is the version of Windows 10? Home, Pro, other?


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## Johnny b (Nov 7, 2016)

Hi Karen 
I assume you are addressing Alex?


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## Cookiegal (Aug 27, 2003)

Johnny b said:


> assume you are addressing Alex?


Yes.


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## Cookiegal (Aug 27, 2003)

Johnny b said:


> Technically, is it legal to install Win 10 as a free upgrade after MS ended the offer, even if MS doesn't enforce it?


I think that while it may be a gray area, doing the free upgrade from Windows 7 or 8.1 doesn't use any hack tool or other method to bypass or trick digital activation and Microsoft has the ability to close that door but has chosen not to. I'm sure they expect people to do this and aren't concerned about it. Here's an article from Bleeping Computer on the matter:

https://www.bleepingcomputer.com/ne...ill-upgrade-to-windows-10-for-free-heres-how/


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## Johnny b (Nov 7, 2016)

Cookiegal said:


> I think that while it may be a gray area, doing the free upgrade from Windows 7 or 8.1 doesn't use any hack tool or other method to bypass or trick digital activation and Microsoft has the ability to close that door but has chosen not to. I'm sure they expect people to do this and aren't concerned about it. Here's an article from Bleeping Computer on the matter:
> 
> https://www.bleepingcomputer.com/ne...ill-upgrade-to-windows-10-for-free-heres-how/


Oh....I agree.
Just the term 'legal' gets thrown around when, imo, the issue is whether the install is 'genuine' or not and that's an activation issue.

IMHO, MS is allowing these installs after the time limit to enhance the change in their business model, that is, going to service as a subscription.
The freebie OS is the 'hook' lol!


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## Alex Ethridge (Apr 10, 2000)

managed said:


> Also you can not upgrade directly from Vista to 10, you have to backup your data and then do a clean install of 10 then restore the data. That means there is no free way to do it, a Vista key will not work in 10.





Johnny b said:


> Oh....I agree.
> Just the term 'legal' gets thrown around when, imo, the issue is whether the install is 'genuine' or not and that's an activation issue.
> 
> IMHO, MS is allowing these installs after the time limit to enhance the change in their business model, that is, going to service as a subscription.
> The freebie OS is the 'hook' lol!


I guess there are a lot of advantages to going to subscriptions. One I see is that they will no longer have to support/troubleshoot older versions of Windows. I imagine this would really streamline their tech support process. However, I personally never found Microsoft's tech support to be helpful. It seemed I always got a lot of totally accurate information that was totally ineffective at solving my problem. I quit calling them in the late nineties. I find better help here and places like Bleeping Computer and similar.


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## lynx1021 (Jan 7, 2014)

I was able to upgrade two of my windows 7 computers last year to 10 with no issues and I bought a legal key and installed 10 for my newer B450 Tomahawk but still have windows 8.1 on my 2013 laptop that runs great with 16gb of memory and a SSD drive! 8.1 is supposed to be good until 2023


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## Goddess-Bastet (Apr 26, 2019)

Alex Ethridge said:


> I don't think that is the case here as I have seen this and similar over the years and never a one was ever tagged by MS as not genuine.


I often come across this on various forums of people buying old PCs with Windows 10 installed only to discover it is a KMS/volume license.
Microsoft will know if a key is used on more than one device & will block it.


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## Alex Ethridge (Apr 10, 2000)

Goddess-Bastet said:


> I often come across this on various forums of people buying old PCs with Windows 10 installed only to discover it is a KMS/volume license.
> Microsoft will know if a key is used on more than one device & will block it.


Content removed by Administrator.


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## Johnny b (Nov 7, 2016)

An aside: With MS cutting support for old hardware no longer supported by the OEM, imo, upgrading to Win 10 on old unsupported hardware seems unwise.

IMO, that $90 Vista powered Dell likely isn't worth $90.

https://www.cnet.com/how-to/new-to-windows-10-heres-how-long-microsoft-will-support-it/


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## Alex Ethridge (Apr 10, 2000)

Johnny b said:


> An aside: With MS cutting support for old hardware no longer supported by the OEM, imo, upgrading to Win 10 on old unsupported hardware seems unwise.
> 
> IMO, that $90 Vista powered Dell likely isn't worth $90.
> 
> https://www.cnet.com/how-to/new-to-windows-10-heres-how-long-microsoft-will-support-it/


Strongly agreed!

This lady runs a tax office, _three_ of them as a matter of fact, and buys "new" junk computers every year to replace what would only barely run last year when she bought those and I've been trying to tell her for over 12 years that she is paying me enough to cope with her junk to buy new ones, or at least _near_ new ones.

After the headaches and frustrations of this year, which were worse than they've ever been, I sent her a snail-mail telling her that if I had to deal with that kind of junk next year, my rates will be bumped up 50% for having to endure the stresses of dealing with outdated computers running misconfigured, polluted and otherwise defective software. These computers were bought originally in June of 2010 so they are 11 years old.

I may lose her business but at this point, I don't care. I don't rely on computer work any more for income anyway as computer and small network business has dropped about 95% since the hey-days.


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## Cookiegal (Aug 27, 2003)

I'm sorry Alex but I had to edit your post no. 27 above as that is helping people to pirate Windows and as you know we don't support or condone that. 

I also suspect, as Virginia mentioned, that these machines were loaded with KMS volume licenses which is against licensing agreements for personal use which is why I asked you to run that command to see the type of license.


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## Alex Ethridge (Apr 10, 2000)

Cookiegal said:


> That doesn't mean anything. There are many activation loaders that are never detected.
> 
> You should run the report Couriant requested on one of them. That will tell us a lot. Also you can do this:
> 
> ...


 If anything here will help me be able to wipe the system and reinstall Windows 10 from scratch, I sure would like to know what that is.

I am currently trying to get the _complete_ product key.


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## crjdriver (Jan 2, 2001)

Alex Ethridge said:


> If anything here will help me be able to wipe the system and reinstall Windows 10 from scratch


Already been explained to you in post #6. IF this is a legal install, all you need to do is clean install win10. It will activate itself ie you do NOT need a key.

If this is NOT a legal install, then you need to purchase a lic.


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## Alex Ethridge (Apr 10, 2000)

crjdriver said:


> Already been explained to you in post #6. IF this is a legal install, all you need to do is clean install win10. It will activate itself ie you do NOT need a key.


OK, I'll try that after I image the drive so I have a return path in case it doesn't work out.

I'm curious, though, why then was I asked to run *slmgr.vbs /dlv*? What value is that information?


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## Cookiegal (Aug 27, 2003)

Alex Ethridge said:


> What value is that information?


It shows the type of license. It says it's retail which is consistent with an upgrade and it indicates it's licensed and not in notification mode. Notification mode would mean it wasn't activated The key is generic and if the PC is eligible for upgrade it should activate automatically from within the hardware. At least that's the way I understand it.


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## Alex Ethridge (Apr 10, 2000)

Cookiegal said:


> It shows the type of license. It says it's retail which is consistent with an upgrade and it indicates it's licensed and not in notification mode. Notification mode would mean it wasn't activated The key is generic and if the PC is eligible for upgrade it should activate automatically from within the hardware. At least that's the way I understand it.


Thanks, just when I think I know all there is to know, someone comes along and tells me something I didn't know.


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## Cookiegal (Aug 27, 2003)

You're welcome but I would still use crjdriver's method of making an image first just to be sure there are no surprises.


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## Alex Ethridge (Apr 10, 2000)

Cookiegal said:


> You're welcome but I would still use crjdriver's method of making an image first just to be sure there are no surprises.


Thanks, doing that now.


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## crjdriver (Jan 2, 2001)

Alex Ethridge said:


> Thanks, just when I think I know all there is to know, someone comes along and tells me something I didn't know.


I believe it was Socrates who said "I am the smartest man I know because I know how much I do not know"


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## Alex Ethridge (Apr 10, 2000)

crjdriver said:


> I believe it was Socrates who said "I am the smartest man I know because I know how much I do not know"


When I was just a little kid, my parents were so smart but it seems the older I got, their brains seemed to just get duller until I got to be about 20. Then they seemed to get smarter and smarter again. I think it's just a thing parents go through.


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## texasbullet (Jun 11, 2014)

I would recommend you to remove the HDD and replace it with either a new HDD or used one so you can make a fresh install of Windows 10. If something goes wrong with the installation you can just swap the HDD and you will have your old OS back. (optional)


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## Alex Ethridge (Apr 10, 2000)

I thought of that but this is one of those very narrow, tight cases so I decided to image the drive, the whole drive, all partitions.

FYI: The W10 upgrade failed with an arcane message as follows: "Windows Installation Failed. Something happened." No idea what but here's the REPORT.TXT file on the desktop, content pasted below, which I have no idea what any of it means.

I have just now started another installation, this time deleting all partitions. If this doesn't work, I'll restore the image and set it aside, at least for a while if not permanently.

<DiagReport>
<LicensingData>
<ToolVersion>10.0.18362.1</ToolVersion>
<LicensingStatus>SL_LICENSING_STATUS_LICENSED</LicensingStatus>
<LicensingStatusReason>0x4004F401</LicensingStatusReason>
<LocalGenuineState>SL_GEN_STATE_IS_GENUINE</LocalGenuineState>
<LocalGenuineResultP>1</LocalGenuineResultP>
<LastOnlineGenuineResult></LastOnlineGenuineResult>
<GraceTimeMinutes>0</GraceTimeMinutes>
<TotalGraceDays>0</TotalGraceDays>
<ValidityExpiration></ValidityExpiration>
<ActivePartialProductKey>3V66T</ActivePartialProductKey>
<ActiveProductKeyPid2>00330-80000-00000-AA173</ActiveProductKeyPid2>
<OSVersion>10.0.18363.2.00010100.0.0.048</OSVersion>
<ProductName>Windows 10 Pro</ProductName>
<ProcessorArchitecture>x64</ProcessorArchitecture>
<EditionId>Professional</EditionId>
<BuildLab>18362.19h1_release.190318-1202</BuildLab>
<TimeZone>Eastern Standard Time(GMT-04:00)</TimeZone>
<ActiveSkuId>4de7cb65-cdf1-4de9-8ae8-e3cce27b9f2c</ActiveSkuId>
<ActiveSkuDescription>Windows(R) Operating System, RETAIL channel</ActiveSkuDescription>
<ProductUniquenessGroups>55c92734-d682-4d71-983e-d6ec3f16059f</ProductUniquenessGroups>
<ActiveProductKeyPKeyId>3c40a285-2469-ae8d-e740-6be881cd3eb6</ActiveProductKeyPKeyId>
<ActiveProductKeyPidEx>03612-03308-000-000000-00-1033-18362.0000-0132020</ActiveProductKeyPidEx>
<ActiveProductKeyChannel>Retail</ActiveProductKeyChannel>
<ActiveVolumeCustomerPid></ActiveVolumeCustomerPid>
<OfflineInstallationId>394593142058220153473819099473938421315560766831418481155241362</OfflineInstallationId>
<DomainJoined>false</DomainJoined>
<ComputerSid>S-1-5-21-378773710-2954808696-1906969195</ComputerSid>
<ProductLCID>1033</ProductLCID>
<UserLCID>1033</UserLCID>
<SystemLCID>1033</SystemLCID>
<CodeSigning>SIGNED_INFO_PRS_SIGNED</CodeSigning>
<ServiceAvailable>true</ServiceAvailable>
<OemMarkerVersion>0x00020000</OemMarkerVersion>
<OemId>DELL </OemId>
<OemTableId>B9K </OemTableId>
<OA3ProductKey>0xC004F057</OA3ProductKey>
<ActivationScenarioCode></ActivationScenarioCode>
<ProductKeyCode></ProductKeyCode>
<Manufacturer>Dell Inc.</Manufacturer>
<Model>OptiPlex 755 </Model>
<InstallDate>20200113235149.000000-300</InstallDate>
</LicensingData>
<HealthCheck>
<Result>PASS</Result>
<TamperedItems></TamperedItems>
</HealthCheck>
<GenuineAuthz>
<ServerProps><?xml version="1.0" encoding="utf-8"?><genuineAuthorization xmlns="http://www.microsoft.com/DRM/SL/GenuineAuthorization/1.0"><version>1.0</version><genuineProperties origin="sppclient"><properties>OA3xOriginalProductId=;OA3xOriginalProductKey=;SessionId=LicensingDiag;TimeStampClient=2021-03-28T14:17:14Z</properties><signatures><signature name="clientLockboxKey" method="rsa-sha256">dXB1cYNihyKhuoO06a9iH8SvS9MlpDohmEuAmXhvzhXMQePKi6WqwqiprHeFDvcmB6MZHO2Ws2K7B9sNTK1QNkApXzJ/j8WQZq0dVNl2Ypc3BLFYehOkH0bYo9aKaS/7MavigBxWbr41Y11OxCIruGGXwGB2/2XdqCL2fzDqR/4=</signature></signatures></genuineProperties></genuineAuthorization></ServerProps>
</GenuineAuthz>
</DiagReport>


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## Alex Ethridge (Apr 10, 2000)

*Update: *I installed Windows 10 Pro with instruction to delete all partitions. Windows is activated.

Thanks to everyone for your help. I may not have ever gotten it done without your help.

*Strange:* I used the script I got directly from microsoft.com to recover the product key and got a product key ending with HCFC6 that was rejected. I also used a third-party utility called ProduKey.exe (which Windows Defender kept killing, had to disable Defender) which gave me a key ending with 3V66T and that key worked.

So from my perspective, Microsoft is not as deft at recovering their own product key as an unknown third party.  Incidentally, I ran the same Microsoft VBS script on my own system and the product key it presented could not be any more different from the real key I used to install it, the genuine key Microsoft gave me when I bought it. Weird!


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## Cookiegal (Aug 27, 2003)

Windows 10 licensing is complication for sure. I'm still learning to understand some of it as well. I think this article may explain it somewhat:

https://www.pcworld.com/article/297...roduct-key-after-upgrading-to-windows-10.html


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## Alex Ethridge (Apr 10, 2000)

Thanks for the link, interestinng and good to know but it still makes no sense to me that Microsoft gives me a script and tells me it will recover my product key for me and when I run it, it gives me a product key that is not the one that came with my copy of Windows AND that Windows installation rejects as invalid.

Makes no sense at all.


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