# Seating an RSJ into a brick wall ... ?



## john1 (Nov 25, 2000)

Hi,

Looking for advice on how to seat an RSJ into a brick wall.
This is quite a common piece of building work,
but i have been unable to find out much on the web.

Apart from one snippet i found,
the regulations no longer allow supporting beams to be set
into chimney-work.

I wont be seating this RSJ into any chimney-work.

Looking for reliable advice,
John


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## blues_harp28 (Jan 9, 2005)

Hi..All RSJ's should be set on a concrete pad stone..
It should be the thickness of at least 4 common house bricks..and set into the wall by at least 12 inches...to make up any gaps between RSJ and brickwork use roofing slates..
Most builders yards sell pad stones..in various sizes..


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## john1 (Nov 25, 2000)

Thank you blues_harp28,

Could you direct me to any sites dealing with this sort of thing,
there are several questions arising from this .....

I should add that i live in England, and the rules here may not
be the same as the rules in your country,

Unless your country is also England of course!

Regards, John


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## blues_harp28 (Jan 9, 2005)

Hi..don't know of any sites..
West London is where I live..rules are the same...
Next question..


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## blues_harp28 (Jan 9, 2005)

Hi.if your using an RSJ..it's a load bearing wall..you will need the councils permission to do the job..and they will want to check as the work is done..to make sure the house remains standing...


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## john1 (Nov 25, 2000)

ok !

I live inside the M25 myself.
Pleased to meet you.

I am quite confused about this page,
it is about joist spans
i wonder if you could shed some light on it ...
i realise its not english, but i couldn't find an english one.
i will try to find the full url.
sorry my one finger typing is so slow.

dunno if that pic has gone in or not ...


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## john1 (Nov 25, 2000)

o, it has gone in ok


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## blues_harp28 (Jan 9, 2005)

Hi..Thumbnail not that clear...
What span are you going to cover with the RSJ?
Are you going to do the job yourself?
Is it for ground floor or upstairs?...different size RSJ for each

http://www.ebuid.co.uk/forums/messages/3468/2287.html?1129282285

site might not connect..try. http://www.ebuild.co.uk


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## john1 (Nov 25, 2000)

Would you mind if i PM to you ?


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## EAFiedler (Apr 25, 2000)

Here is that link again *blues_harp28*, it was just missing an *l* in ebuild

http://www.ebuild.co.uk/forums/messages/3468/2287.html?1129282285


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## blues_harp28 (Jan 9, 2005)

Thats ok..


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## blues_harp28 (Jan 9, 2005)

Thanks EAFiedler..


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## john1 (Nov 25, 2000)

yes, i got to that page ...
i entered each bit one at a time, didn't notice anything missing,
the one about a kitchen extension .... yes ?

Not quite what i am doing here,
i'm not knocking anything down, just a bit of strengthening.
I will PM with more details, and pics if needed.


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## john1 (Nov 25, 2000)

Got to attend to my dinner in between posting,
and if you are working tomorrow i don't want to keep you up.
could take me a few minutes to reply ....


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## blues_harp28 (Jan 9, 2005)

Hi..if your not removing anything structural..an RSJ may not be needed..
I'll await your pm..


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## john1 (Nov 25, 2000)

Not removing anything, no demolition at all,
more of a 'strengthening' sort of thing ...


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## blues_harp28 (Jan 9, 2005)

Hi..Marine ply will spread the weight..8x4 4x2...
Anything really heavy..build a platform...


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## blues_harp28 (Jan 9, 2005)

More info..two 6x3 sawn joists..run from brick wall to brickwall..set 3-4 feet from window wall and 3-4 feet from ajoining wall..run opposte to ceiling joists..
Set 6-9 inches into brickwork..
Cover with plasterboard..don't completely cut plasterboard to bend around joist..
As your making no structual change to the building no permission from council is needed..


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## john1 (Nov 25, 2000)

so any idea what counts as 'another room'

size?
having a window?

i have searched around for ages over this,
but found no clear answers yet.

my opinion is 'access'

An outside loo is not accessible from within the home,
so i don't think that counts.


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## john1 (Nov 25, 2000)

but thats just my opinion.
i could easily be wrong


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## blues_harp28 (Jan 9, 2005)

Hi..another room..needs a door or stairway for access..no stairway..no room..

Did I make it clear..6x3's installed under bedroom ceiling??


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## john1 (Nov 25, 2000)

Okay ...
its getting late,
catch you later,
thanks for your help.

Regards, John


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## john1 (Nov 25, 2000)

yes,
when you mentioned plasterboard i realised you meant
re-inforcing the ceiling under the attic floor.

that is my preference as the attic has limited head room


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## blues_harp28 (Jan 9, 2005)

Anytime..makes a change from pc matters..


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## jackrabbit (Jul 23, 2003)

What is an RSJ? I am more familiar with Microlam, Paralam, and Structural beam. If it is a beam for load bearing then here in the US the code says that all members bearing on masonry shall be not less than 4" and if bearing on wood not less than 3", so if the end of the beams rest on masonry, you need 4", if it will sit on wood then 3" is needed. Keep in mind that any load bearing member must be bearing to the footing. (This means that you need 3 2x's under each end, and you must have solid blocking under the subfloor to the foundation)


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## john1 (Nov 25, 2000)

Hi jackrabbit,

RSJ is a Brit term used loosely for supporting steelwork beams in
buildings.
The letters RSJ stand for 'rigid steel joist' and yes we have regulations
governing all sorts of methods of use and conditions for such members in
building work, here in England.

The names you mentioned are not familiar to me and sound like proprietory
terms to me.

I had intended to use a length of steel joist to provide additional
support to my existing structure, purely for my own reassurance, however
i am not going to use steelwork now.

After discussing options with 'blues_harp28' i've settled upon fitting a
wooden beam, similar to others in the house.
This is going to be a lot less trouble and effort, and will look like
the other beams, so i will be happy with that.

Thanks for your interest,

Cheers, John


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## jackrabbit (Jul 23, 2003)

OK, just putting in some info, and the beams I mentioned are of the LVL family (Laminated Veneer Lumber) In other words they are several layers of wood pressed together under several hundred tons of pressure, through science and math it has been proven that several strands of something are stronger than one because it splits the load. Steel is good, but as a G-6 certified welder I must say that steel is the weakest material to build with, it can not even support its own weight unless it has supports added. Steel has to "Give" or it will break easier than wood.
Good luck on your project.


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## blues_harp28 (Jan 9, 2005)

Hi john1..hope all goes well..:up:


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## john1 (Nov 25, 2000)

Hi blues_harp28, Hi jackrabbit,

I haven't heard of this type of wooden beam before, it sounds expensive.
The type i have ordered is a simple 5" by 4" section of C6 grade.
It is to provide additional strengthening to the attic flooring, as i
am storing more and more bits and pieces up there.
It will be set up tight to the ceiling in my bedroom, which is also the
area of attic flooring which has least existing support.
There will be no alteration to the existing structure.

**************************************

Hi Blues Harp,

I asked you before about what might count as another room, and you said
that access is the deciding factor.
I am assuming that by stairway you mean a fixed and built in staircase
rigidly fixed to the building .... ?

I ask because i do have stairs to my attic, they are a fold-down sort
of stepladder, which folds up into the attic when not in use.
I am hoping this type of stairs would not count as a stairway.

Even though they are fixed to the building on a pivot at the top.

Not that this would cause me to declare another room either way, its
just that i would like to be sure for myself.

This is another of those things that i haven't been able to find any
clear definition on the web, yet i am sure it's there somewhere.

Regards, John


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## jackrabbit (Jul 23, 2003)

Hi john1


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## blues_harp28 (Jan 9, 2005)

Hi..it will only count as another room if access is permanant...a fixed stairway..fixed doorway..or someone is living..sleeping there...


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## john1 (Nov 25, 2000)

Hi blues_harp28, Hi jackrabbit,

So it would be fair to say that stairs which pivot down to be used,
would not count as fixed, even though they are fixed at the top ?

There wont be anyone living in my attic.
Apart from a few spiders.

Although access to the attic has always been possible.
I'm a bit vague as to what permanent access might be.

Cheers, John


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## blues_harp28 (Jan 9, 2005)

Hi..Permanant access means..that you can walk through a doorway that is fixed either side to a wall..
Or walk up a stairway that is fixed to floor and ceiling..
Stairway made of wood..metal designed and built to fit the space provided..
A step ladder dosen't fit that description
That's a very rough paraphase of the building regulations..


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## john1 (Nov 25, 2000)

Hi blues_harp28, Hi jackrabbit,

_Or walk up a stairway that is fixed to floor and ceiling.._

Well the stairs i have in mind would be the type that are fixed at the top,
and would sort of 'fold down' probably by pulling on a cord, or operating
with a stick.
When they are in the up position this sort of arrangement usually has a flat
underside which covers the aperture in the ceiling, just leaving the handle
or clip for the user to pull them down to use them for access.

So i suppose that if the regs stipulate fixed at floor and ceiling, then
clearly steps which are only fixed at the top by a pivot, would fall short 
of the conditions obliging me to declare an extra room.

Which is pretty much what i thought, but its nice to be sure.

Cheers, John


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