# Mac or PC?



## tedwinder

What I want to know is, do you use (or want to use) a Mac or a PC and why!

Mac's are _definatley_ for me! Why? Because the design is so much better, they are more powerful (bettter applications), more available RAM, doesn't have a CEO who loooks like a chicken....the list gos on!


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## Stoner

PC here, Ted.
Why...because I'm cheap and can buy a really decent PC rig that suits my needs, at local business auctions for less than $50. 
Can't do that with a MAC in my area.

I have heard Macs do make more attractive aquariams, however


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## tedwinder

If you're looking for cheap Mac's, check out eBay.....


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## Guest

down with the MAC! 

up with the cheap and crappy PC... 

im all for personale computore.... :up:



the pc is more popular with the merchants here anyway....no mac at all.


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## tedwinder

Hang on, you're saying that a PC is bad, yet you're supporting it!


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## Stoner

tedwinder said:


> If you're looking for cheap Mac's, check out eBay.....


Looked pricey for used equipment.
But I don't need a computer now...... Dude....I bought a DELL  ( for about $30  )


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## tedwinder

It shows that you don't like Mac's, you're all spelling it with capital letters and it chouldn't b because it's short for_ Macintosh_!


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## Guest

> Hang on, you're saying that a PC is bad, yet you're supporting it!


yeah....

so what of it??  

hahahahahha....


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## Stoner

OK....mAC


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## tedwinder

Yesss! Come on Mac!


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## Guest

> It shows th
> at you don't like Mac's, you're all spelling it with capital letters and it chouldn't b because it's short for Macintosh!


noooo.....

what HAVE I DONE....

please forgive me...

oh...and...DOWN WITH THE MAC!!!M A C   

what....EVER!!


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## tedwinder

Hee hee!


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## Stoner

tedwinder said:


> Yesss! Come on Mac!


No silly 

That's just my new way to spell mAC 

Oh my!....this looks like a grim start Ted......


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## Guest

> Hee hee!


this is not a laughing matter...

HAHAHAHAHAHOHH


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## tedwinder

You're forgetting that this thread is new......

Soon there will be loads of people voting and guess what? They'll all vote Mac!


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## Guest

> Soon there will be loads of people voting and guess what? They'll all vote Mac!


DOWN WITH THE M A C...THE mAC....  

HA!!!


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## Omega_Shadow

Don't tell me we got another insane iCrap supporter  

Remember that one guy Stoner, oh what was his name, soggy poultry? The one that thought macs are completely immune from computer viruses and hackers?

Anyway, between a PC and a mac the PC wins hands down. Number one you can build your own to your personal specs. Secondly when you need to upgrade you just go out an buy an extension card, where as you have buy a whole new machine for a mac. And don't even get me started about the raw power and potential. In my eyes anything from apple is nothing more then an expensive toy


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## tedwinder

Yeah, but if you had a Mac, you wouldn't need to upgrade becuase it would always have the best software and even if you did need to upgrade, you can download drivers from the internet. I agree, Apple are expensive, but 1) it's worth it, and 2) get it somewhere else!


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## Omega_Shadow

tedwinder said:


> .....doesn't have a CEO who loooks like a chicken....the list gos on!


And what the hell are you talking about. PC's are not made by one company, therefore there isnt a CEO of PC's


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## Guest

> And what the hell are you talking about. PC's are not made by one company, therefore there isnt a CEO of PC's


you got that right....


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## Omega_Shadow

tedwinder said:


> Yeah, but if you had a Mac, you wouldn't need to upgrade becuase it would always have the best software and even if you did need to upgrade, you can download drivers from the internet.


......................

Once again mac user incompetence amazes me

YOU CANT DOWNLOAD HARDWARE. If you need better graphics you cant just go online and download a new graphics card!!


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## tedwinder

And PC's have 114,00 _known_ viruses, and Mac's have none. Check these out:

Apple Ads
Microsuck
Everything sucks


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## Guest

> YOU CANT DOWNLOAD HARDWARE. If you need better graphics you cant just go online and download a new graphics card!!


HAHAHAHAHHAAHHAHHAH...  

oh man....

thanx for the good laugh...


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## tedwinder

Ah, but you wouldn't _need_ to get new hardware, and if you do, just take the back of your Mac off and put it in. Simple.


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## DarqueMist

Mac and cheese all the way ..... its a staple we can't do without.
Try a PC and cheese ..... just doesn't cut it.


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## Stoner

Omega_Shadow said:


> ....................
> 
> Remember that one guy Stoner, oh what was his name, soggy poultry? The one that thought macs are completely immune from computer viruses and hackers?
> 
> .............
> ........




Wet Chicken


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## tedwinder

Please vote, just to prove my point!


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## Stoner

tedwinder said:


> And PC's have 114,00 _known_ viruses, and Mac's have none. Check these out:
> 
> Blah_balh_blah
> Blah_blah
> Blah


No viruses here


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## Omega_Shadow

*sigh*

When you buy a mac does the logic center of your brain melt away, or is it already gone? Thats what I want to know


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## Guest

here's something for you MAC lovers...hehehehe...  



no more viruses...


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## Stoner

If PCs are so bad, why did mACs go to Intel innards


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## Stoner

And if Windows is so terrible, why will the new mACs boot Windows


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## Guest

> If PCs are so bad, why did mACs go to Intel innards


guess the APPLE has realised the error of their ways...

succumb to intel....ressitance is futile.


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## Omega_Shadow

tedwinder said:


> Ah, but you wouldn't _need_ to get new hardware, and if you do, just take the back of your Mac off and put it in. Simple.


In other words your saying that a mac is a magical device that is never out of date? I beg to differ as I got a piece of crap Performa taking up space in my storage locker that cant even read CD-R's


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## Guest

> And if Windows is so terrible, why will the new mACs boot Window


you cant beat the cheap and economical PC...


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## Stoner

OMG Ted!......look at the poll now ........mAC=1.....PC=5........


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## Nurdle

Do you actullay know what PC stands for? Personnal Computer. How is a Mac personnal when you cant do what you want to it?

Might as well buy a console smash the controler and just look at how pritty it is!


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## Guest

> Do you actullay know what PC stands for? Personnal Computer. How is a Mac personnal when you cant do what you want to it?
> 
> Might as well buy a console smash the controler and just look at how pritty it is!


yeah!! 

just trash it!!!  

trash the mAC!!

or give it away to someone who doesen't have the money to buy one....

no wait.....would that be a mistake?


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## Omega_Shadow

ODIN 0ERO said:


> or give it away to someone who doesen't have the money to buy one....
> 
> no wait.....would that be a mistake?


Yes, it would be a mistake. You would scar them for life


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## Nurdle

Only a scar? What about the psychological impact?


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## Guest

MY GOD JIM!!!

WHAT IS IT???!!! 

just take it easy Bones....


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## jp1203

PC for me, Ted. 

Why? Because they have many more applications available, allow you to get into a form of a BIOS and let you see more/change more, etc. Plus, I perfer Intel chips over Motorolas, but they're switching over, so that doesn't matter anyway.

I have two PCS and a Mac Server with Ubuntu on it. I will admit that I love the looks of the case and the inside!


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## jp1203

Stoner said:


> No viruses here


Here either!


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## Guest

> Here either!


no viruses here either....


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## Omega_Shadow

Since switching to Linux I have been virus free. But that doesn't keep me from being prepared. 3 firewalls, an active scanner and a once a week in depth pass make sure nothing gets through


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## Guest

3 firewalls... 

you dont have a conflict?


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## Omega_Shadow

One in the computer. Two in my router, one software one hardware. Sure, opening up ports is a pain cause you have to do it three times but I got network security


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## Guest

> One in the computer. Two in my router, one software one hardware. Sure, opening up ports is a pain cause you have to do it three times but I got network security


i'll say...

i guess you can never have too much security...can you?...


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## Omega_Shadow

damn straight. 

Wish I could put up a firewall around my house. But apparently there are these things called "building codes" where I live and they just wont allow it. Fire marshal nearly fainted when I said I wanted to build a 24 foot high fence ignited on fire. Don't see what the big deal is....


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## Guest

> Wish I could put up a firewall around my house. But apparently there are these things called "building codes" where I live and they just wont allow it. Fire marshal nearly fainted when I said I wanted to build a 24 foot high fence ignited on fire. Don't see what the big deal is....


security freak  ..... ....................................[no offence  ]


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## Omega_Shadow

[none taken  ]

I just take computer security seriously


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## Guest

> I just take computer security seriously


no kidding... 

i might try to build a FIREWALL around my house myself....damned relatives wont leave me alone...


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## Omega_Shadow

I find a loaded shotgun works best for that. And robotic attack dogs. Those are the best


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## Guest

you mean like this one?.....



The Robot Guard ...Down boy.... 

BATTERIES NOT INCLUDED....

just dont forget to change the batteries every 2 years....


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## zergpc208

Why is there not other option for Linux ? You only have 2 a MAC and PC.

I vote Linux why Microsoft is greedy.


Next OS is Linux


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## thegreatjmat

Pc.


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## clskrk

Yes, Bill Gates looks like an add for birth control, and has way too much money, but mAC is (IMO,) a far inferior machine, (yes, I have used both,) and you basically need a class to find out how to work one.
Then there is the concideration of "cosmetics." It seems they go out of their way to make something that looks like it was a Star Wars reject.


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## tedwinder

Have any of you guys ever even _used_ a Mac? And yes, I have used a PC for about 4 years. What was I missing!


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## Guest

> Have any of you guys ever even used a Mac? And yes, I have used a PC for about 4 years. What was I missing!


no need for mAC.

the PC serves us just fine.

total customisation option.


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## tedwinder

But if you had a Mac, you could run (the better) Mac OS X and (crummy) Windows at the same time. Two computers in 1. No need for the standalone PC anymore. And Apple moved to the Intel Chip to encourage more customers. And guess what? Its worked.


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## Guest

merchants preffere the PC.

and they sell mostly PC components.

and have a great selection of PC upgrades.

and reasonable prices.

that's why i use it.


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## tedwinder

OK, so you're saying that its hard to find Mac components?


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## Guest

> OK, so you're saying that its hard to find Mac components?


no i am not saying that is hard to find mAC componnents.

what i said..

that merchants prefere the PC because it sells better.

and most people prefere it.

and the quality is satisfying.

not high quality..but satisfying quality none the less.

and the prices are reasonable.

unlike the mAC...


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## tedwinder

See! Even you are admitting that PC's quality is rubbish.

Right. The design. Would you say that the PC or an iMac looks better?


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## tedwinder

And you can get cheap new Macs here.


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## Guest

so what? 

DOWN WITH THE MAC!! 


HAHAHAH!  


oh...and..thats NOT cheap!


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## tedwinder

This poll has gone horribly wrong.........

*DOWN WITH THE PC!
*
MWA HAA HAA HA HA!


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## Guest

> DOWN WITH THE PC!


AS IF!!!!!

PC DOMINATION FOR MORE THAN 30 YEARS!!

UNLIKE THE mAC.


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## tedwinder

*MAC'S WILL TAKE OVER THE WORLD!!!!!*

Ok, maybe not, but they will definately dstroy the PC's supposedly good reputation.


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## Guest

> Ok, maybe not, but they will definately dstroy the PC's supposedly good reputation.


maybe it's not high quality....but it's not CRAP either.

and i KNOW CRAP when i see one.

the PC is the GOLDEN MIDDLE of high quality and low quality.

and that's why i say...

DOWN WITH THE MAC!!! 

THE "HIGH" QUALITY C R A P!!!

forgive my expression..


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## tedwinder

Actually, that was a good bit of poetry. Shame it's not true!


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## Guest

> Actually, that was a good bit of poetry. Shame it's not true!


thank you for the compliment. :up:

like the NIKE commercial..

just DO IT!!

just like the mAC commercial..

just TRASH IT!


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## tedwinder

If you hadn't already got a PCand you could buy one for 100 £/$ extra than a normal one that could run Mac OS X , would you get it?


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## Guest

the question is irrelevant at this point in time.

i am satisfied with the PC's quality.


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## tedwinder

......Which is rubbish. If you got a mac you wouldn't just be satisfyed, you'd be overwhelmed!


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## Guest

it is dificult to run against the WAVE..

don't you think...

if the mAC prevailed before the PC.

i would be using the mAC at this moment.

and the mAC would be a sitting duck for viruses,worms[MAC OS X]...just like the PC is now.[windows]

and i would have the same problems with malware...just like with the PC.

it is just a point of view.


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## tedwinder

No, becuase people have trried to make viruses for mac;s but haven't succeeded.


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## tedwinder

Moe like Win_doze_.


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## Guest

> No, becuase people have trried to make viruses for mac;s but haven't succeeded.


what do you think about this MASTER of THE "mAC wich does not have viruses and is immune to the same"



> 2.16.2006 News
> Mac OS X Virus Alert - Sophos Anti Virus has found the first 'real virus' for Mac OS X known as OSX/Leap-A or OSX/Oompa-A. The OSX/Leap worm or trojan is spread via instant messenger forwarding itself as a file named 'latestpics.tgz'. When launched the worm attempts to spread via iChat sending itself to the users buddy list. The application will also try to infect the recently used applications.


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## tedwinder

Viruses for Mac: 1
_Known_ Viruses for PC: 114,000


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## Guest

Hahahahahaha   

the number is going to increase....dont you worry about that. 

it is just like the cell phones.

nothing lasts forever.

the inteligence can overcome any obstacle.


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## tedwinder

Ywah, in 2000 years time ther'll be 2 viruses for Mac's and 1,0000000000000 for PC's!


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## Guest

> Ywah, in 2000 years time ther'll be 2 viruses for Mac's and 1,0000000000000 for PC's!


HOHHOHAHAHA  

and the futile whimper at the end...

good luck with the mAC.:up:


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## tedwinder

Come on people! *VOTE FOR MAC!*


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## Guest

here's one for the insanely great mAC!

my gift to you.



you can thank me later.:up:


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## tedwinder

this is bad.......


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## Guest

your GRANDMOTHER loves it... 

even your DOG loves it... 

and you love it too!... 


VOTE FOR mAC!


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## tedwinder

Huh? have you changed sides?


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## Guest

yes i HAVE changed sides...

YOUR ARGUMENTS HAVE CONVINCED ME!

AS IF!!!!!AHAHHAHAHAOHAOHAHOHOHO  

NOOFFFF!!!!


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## tedwinder

Damn.


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## Stoner

Wow!....had to move the thread to the mAC forum in order to pick up another vote....LOL!



_


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## Omega_Shadow

if you don't get the results you want, move the polls to a location where you know everyone agrees with you  Typical mac thinking

And for your information ted, I did use a mac for over a year and that's why I hate them so much. And pc's don't just use windows. Windows is an idiot friendly os for those that lack common sense. Linux is the OS of choice for those that understand the full power and potential of the PC.


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## Guest

> And for your information ted, I did use a mac for over a year and that's why I hate them so much. And pc's don't just use windows. Windows is an idiot friendly os for those that lack common sense. Linux is the OS of choice for those that understand the full power and potential of the PC.


Linux.the free operating system.

one of the UNIX DERIVATIVES..

Linux is for ADVANCED computer users.

most users do not have advanced knowledge.










linux is a good operating system.:up: ....and the better choice than windows...for the ones who have the knowledge to use it...


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## Omega_Shadow

got something else for ya. Apple had to resort to cheating to put the G5 anywhere near its pc counterparts.

http://www.theregister.co.uk/2003/06/24/apple_accused_of_cheating_over/


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## Omega_Shadow

ODIN 0ERO said:


> Linux is for ADVANCED computer users.


This is a myth. It only takes a sort unlearning process for a window user to start using linux. In the last 2 years Linux distros have become much more user freindly but have retained their power and stability. I still stand by my statement that linux is easyer then windows concerning most tasks.

And your tux is slightly outdated. Here is the new mascot of linux:


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## Guest

> got something else for ya. Apple had to resort to cheating to put the G5 anywhere near its pc counterparts.


as i said....

TRASH THE mAC! 

and...the PENGUIN is a PENGUIN....no matter the shape.

but that is irrelevant here.


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## ferrija1

Self-explanatory


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## ferrija1

And the mouse was for someone like this:


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## Omega_Shadow

.....iToilet......poop different......

 lmfao!

Edit> Huh? Where did it go? ferrija, didnt you post a pic of a mac toilet?


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## ferrija1

Read the bottom.









It says "Good for when you throw it out the 4th story window" at the bottom .


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## ferrija1

Omega_Shadow said:


> .....iToilet......poop different......
> 
> lmfao!


I got rid of that...but here it is again:


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## Guest

> And the mouse was for someone like this:



GOOD GOD JIM!!!

WHAT IS IT!!!!!???


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## Omega_Shadow

your kidding? A mod told you to take it down. Thats insaine


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## Guest

> I got rid of that...but here it is again:


nice "JOHN"!  

HAHAHAHAHOAOHAHOAOH  

i must say....i has that certain "something"...

flushes all your hopes...down the toilet...


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## tedwinder

I've found a website that is exactly what Windows is like. Windoze.


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## Omega_Shadow

..... typical mac stupidity.

PC DOES NOT EQUAL WINDOWS.

A PC can run a host of operating systems, such as Unix, Linux, NetWare, Solarius, OpenVMS, BeOS, Risc, AmigaOS ..... The list goes on for miles.
Windoze is the OS for those that like to be fleeced of their money. mac OS is for those who are missing a brain.

Now if your trying to claim superiority of the mac over PC based solely on the comparison between the macs best OS and the PCs worst OS you did nothing but shoot yourself in the foot


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## Guest

well...

everybody makes mistakes... 

you live and you learn.

mistakes are made so that we can learn from them.

the mAC MASTER will learn the error of his ways too...


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## Omega_Shadow

I dont know. When someone gets "absorbed" into the mac's cult-like culture they seem to lose a complete grip on reality. I would link you to another mac fanatics thread to prove my point but I cant seem to find it.


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## Guest

> I dont know. When someone gets "absorbed" into the mac's cult-like culture they seem to lose a complete grip on reality. I would link you to another mac fanatics thread to prove my point but I cant seem to find it.


dont waste time trying to find it.

i have heard enough.

this debate is rather meaningless.

the reality is as it is.

PC domination for more than 30 years.


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## Omega_Shadow

I agree. Every time you get a mac fanatic talking the debate becomes mute because of the lack of facts they put forward to back what they spout


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## tedwinder

My argument is too strong. You've given up!


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## Stoner

I have an extra hard drive in a removable tray and I've been meaning to instal Ubuntu on my P3 800 and give it a whirl. This conversation got me interested again :up:


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## Stoner

I started the instal about a half an hour ago or so, I didn't time it.

Posting from Ubuntu now


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## tedwinder

Mac OS X takes about 10.15 minutes to install.


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## Stoner

tedwinder said:


> Mac OS X takes about 10.15 minutes to install.


Might take a mite longer on my PC _

Anyway, Firefox seemed a mite slow in Ubuntu, even after doing a few tweaks, so I'm back on 98se. Also didn't like Open Office......real slow to load.


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## VegasACF

Omega_Shadow said:


> I agree. Every time you get a mac fanatic talking the debate becomes *mute* because of the lack of facts they put forward to back what they spout





Omega_Shadow said:


> Now if *your* trying to claim superiority of the mac over PC based solely on the comparison between the macs best OS and the PCs worst OS you did nothing but shoot yourself in the foot





Omega_Shadow said:


> *your* kidding?





Omega_Shadow said:


> Thats *insaine*


(emphasis added)

For someone questioning others' intelligence (based solely on their choice of OS--specious reasoning at its finest) you sure do misspell a lot of words or simply use the wrong word altogether. Throwing around phrases like "cult-like" and "mac fanatic" (a) does little to bolster your argument; and (b) makes you seem like quite the Kool-Aid drinker yourself. Relying upon facts and statistics to buttress your claims is far more effective than blindly slinging ad hominem attacks at people you cannot claim to know.

Nonetheless, I'll give you an award for your valor in a yet another ridiculous online fight:










And a badge you can put on your web page to show to the world your arguing prowess:










Use whatever OS does what you need it to do and that does it best. For some that's Windows. For others that's Unix. For others that's Mac OS.


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## Omega_Shadow

Those with no valid arguments resort to nitpicking someones spelling. Way to go, and way to prove your own point on yourself 

It has been said by many other people much smarter then I that mac users do show many similarities to members of an exclusive club or cult. They fiercely try to prove their beliefs to others, many times spouting manipulated, altered or outright falsified evidence beond common sense. Need I remind you about the wet chicken incident?

Now it is true this behavior applies to almost anything and is not displayed solely by mac users, even though it is more prevalent with that group. There are windows fanatics and Linux fanatics out there too and I hate them both just as much as I hate mac fanatics. 

If you want to ague about how mac is superior try comparing FSB speeds and real time benchmarks, discuss security features and product support and longevity of the system. Don't say "well, pcs suck" or "windows sucks" and expect that to cut it.


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## VegasACF

Omega_Shadow said:


> Those with no valid arguments resort to nitpicking someone's spelling. Way to go, and way to prove your own point on yourself


Mmmkay.



Omega_Shadow said:


> It has been said by many other people much smarter then I that mac users do show many simularities to members of an exlesive club or cult. They fearcly try to prove their beleifs to others, many times spouting manupulated, altered or outright falcified evidance beond common sence. Need I remind you about the wet chicken incident?


Wow. That's almost unreadable.



Omega_Shadow said:


> Now it is true this behaviour applies to almost anything and is not displayed solely by mac users, even though it is more prevalent with that group. There are windows fanatics and linux fanatics out their too and I dispisze them both just as much as I dispize mac fanatics.


Yes, yes, your hatred for people based on their OS of choice is most apparent. Sad, but apparent.



Omega_Shadow said:


> If you want to ague about how mac is superior try compairing FSB speeds and real time benchmarks, discuss security features and product support and longevity of the system. Dont say "well, pcs suck" or "windows sucks" and expect that to cut it.


Strange. I don't see myself claiming superiority. I see myself saying use whatever you want to use and what works best for you.

Sorry that is such a mystifying concept to you. Good day.


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## Omega_Shadow

You're twisting everything I say. Either you're looking to annoy me or you like playing childish games. Either way I refuse to participate. Have a nice day.

Back to the actual topic:


Stoner said:


> Anyway, Firefox seemed a mite slow in Ubuntu, even after doing a few tweaks, so I'm back on 98se. Also didn't like Open Office......real slow to load.


Everything seems slow to load on Ubuntu, I thought it was just my computer. Might want to try another liveCD distro like PCLinuxOS and see if you have the same problem. And 98se :up: Decent OS. One of the few from microsoft I can stand, fairly fast too once you optimize it a bit


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## Stoner

Hey O S 

I have been running Slax from ram, and think it's pretty good ( and quick)
The modules are easier to load than installing software into any other Installed Linux distro.
Just havent found a module that allows for scanning.
I tried out Knoppix 5.0 recently, but I thought version 4 was more responsive. Had to run it from CD....not enough memory to run from ram.


With Macs booting Windows, anyone with a new Mac tried to boot a Linux Live CD, yet?


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## Omega_Shadow

Stoner said:


> Hey O S
> 
> With Macs booting Windows, anyone with a new Mac tried to boot a Linux Live CD, yet?


I am interested about this too. I know of macs that run on linux distros (lets face it, mac osx is linux based) but I am unsure if a liveCD would work? I guess in theory it would. This would help for when my dad crashes his mac next time. I can just pop in a liveCD and attempt to fix the probelm from there


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## Yankee Rose

Omega_Shadow said:


> I did use a mac for over a year and that's why I hate them so much.


Hi Omega_Shadow. What OS did you use on the Mac?


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## Omega_Shadow

Didnt pay too much attention. Was missing windows too much at the time. Whatever comes on a Performa 6400/200. Mac OS 7 I think

BTW, if anyone knows where I can get a download of that OS I still got that performa sitting in storeage with an initialized drive. I could turn it into a web browser, music box or something in the basement


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## Pensacola Tiger

For a PPC based Mac, from personal experience, the Ubuntu live CD for PPC will work. i don't have an Intel Mac, so I can't say if there is a live Linux CD distro that will support all of the Apple hardware.


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## Omega_Shadow

yeah, I did try an ubuntu PowerPC disk and I cant get it to read

Is there something I have to do, a button sequence to get into some sort of bios or something? The drive only has demo software I copyed from a "welcome to mac" disk


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## Pensacola Tiger

Have you tried holding down the 'C' key on startup?


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## AlexTs

Macs are for people who want to work.

PCs are for people who want to work AND play tech support, computer technician, network administrator, virus expert, software update version tracker, crash investigator, error code analyst, Windows drivers QA tester, DLL conflict arbitration judge, etc.

I know, I've been there.


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## Omega_Shadow

Pensacola Tiger said:


> Have you tried holding down the 'C' key on startup?


Thanx I will try that now.

EDIT> Just stalls it at the "welcome to macintosh" screen


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## Omega_Shadow

AlexTs said:


> Macs are for people who want to work.
> 
> PCs are for people who want to work AND play tech support, computer technician, network administrator, virus expert, software update version tracker, crash investigator, error code analyst, Windows drivers QA tester, DLL conflict arbitration judge, etc.
> 
> I know, I've been there.


you mean THE WINDOWS OS, not PC. PC is just the hardware. Like I keep saying, a PC can run many different OS's and it is not fair to blame the shortfals of one OS on the hardware.

But concering Windows I agree with your point.


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## Guest

is this debate over yet?... 

c'mon omega....it's pointless.


----------



## clskrk

tedwinder said:


> But if you had a Mac, you could run (the better) Mac OS X and (crummy) Windows at the same time. Two computers in 1. No need for the standalone PC anymore. And Apple moved to the Intel Chip to encourage more customers. And guess what? Its worked.


And just why did mAC make all these changes???
If their OS is so great, why did they feel the need to switch processors and change it to run Windows?????


----------



## Omega_Shadow

ODIN 0ERO said:


> is this debate over yet?...
> 
> c'mon omega....it's pointless.


I'm a <family name omited>, argueing is in my nature, pointless or not 

If you think this is pointless you should hear me and my dads debate about what ketchup (or how he spells it, catchup) is better


----------



## Guest

> If you think this is pointless you should hear me and my dads debate about what ketchup (or how he spells it, catchup) is better


that's interesting!.....


----------



## VegasACF

Omega_Shadow said:


> You're twisting everything I say. Either you're looking to annoy me or you like playing childish games. Either way I refuse to participate. Have a nice day.


I twisted nothing. I merely quoted you. Your refusal "to participate" speaks volumes. Sucks getting called out on talking trash, doesn't it? 



Yankee Rose said:


> Hi Omega_Shadow. What OS did you use on the Mac?





Omega_Shadow said:


> Didnt pay too much attention. Was missing windows too much at the time. Whatever comes on a Performa 6400/200. Mac OS 7 I think


You're basing your opinion of the Mac OS on a your experience with a _ten year old_ machine? The picture becomes ever clearer.

By the way, the Performa 6400/200 supports Mac OS 7.5.3 - 8.6 and Mac OS 9.0. I found 8.6 and 9.0 to be quite stable OSes. I would avoid 7.5.3 like the Bubonic Plague. Even in very tightly controlled systems with minimal third party software it was crash-prone. Of course, even with OS 9.0 installed you're dealing with an OS that is nearly seven years old. But I'm sure that would be a sufficient basis to form an opinion of the current state of the OS.



Omega_Shadow said:


> BTW, if anyone knows where I can get a download of that OS I still got that performa sitting in storeage with an initialized drive. I could turn it into a web browser, music box or something in the basement


This might be of assistance to you. But be warned, you'll be sullying your browser by contacting Apple's servers. Be sure to have a moist towelette handy.



clskrk said:


> And just why did mAC make all these changes???


Macintosh is a product line. Apple is a company. The company made the changes, not the product line. Not even the mighty Mac is (entirely) self-aware.



clskrk said:


> If their OS is so great, why did they feel the need to switch processors and change it to run Windows?????


Motorola was not able to produce newer, faster, smaller, cooler chips at the rate Steve Jobs wanted. That, coupled with the fact Motorola was unable to create a G5 CPU that was workable (given size and heat constraints) in a PowerBook, led to problems between the two companies, and negotiations between Intel and Apple. Apple has a long history of moving from one family of processors to another (as does the rest of the computer industry). First, it eschewed the 68k line of processors (the 68000, 68020, 68030, 68040 and 68LC040) in favor of the first Power PC processors, then discarded the 600 line of processors (the PowerPC 601, PowerPC 603, PowerPC 603e, PowerPC 604 and PowerPC 604e) in favor of the G3 (PowerPC 740/750), G4 (PowerPC 74xx) and G5 (PowerPC 970), which have now been abandoned for the Intel Core Duo processors. Fortunately for Apple and for Motorola, until this most recent change, Motorola was the manufacturer of both the old and the new processor families. Unfortunately for Motorola, this most recent change was brought on by Apple needing something that Motorola couldn't produce. Apple will do what it must to remain innovative, and keep moving its product lines forward. C'est la guerre.

The ability to run Windows was incidental to the switch in processors. Not the other way around. You put the cart before the horse.

But you could have learned all of this in the newspapers over the past year or so.


----------



## Guest

> I twisted nothing. I merely quoted you. Your refusal "to participate" speaks volumes. Sucks getting called out on talking trash, doesn't it?


oh...just shut UP you wise guy....


----------



## Omega_Shadow

ODIN 0ERO said:


> that's interesting!.....


Not to mention that this discussion might become a tad more exciting now that it seems we got non-fanatics joining in. Discussing the successes and failures of two systems with those that will admit failures along with the successes makes for a much better debate.


----------



## tedwinder

Now I know why you guys didn't like Mac OS! You were using OS 7! Even I admit that that was cranky. Try Mac OS X 10.4.7 - it's _much_ easier than any other OS, including OS 7!


----------



## Guest

you mAC MASTER!! 

get off the line!!


----------



## tedwinder

It's _my_ thread!


----------



## tedwinder

To make this fair, I'm gonna move it to the Windows forums as well.


----------



## Guest

> It's my thread!


no!!  

THIS IS MY THREAD!!!   

I AM TAKING OVER YOUR THREAD!!!


----------



## tedwinder

I wonder if there's a way of banning someone from a thread.................


----------



## AlexTs

Originally Posted by clskrk
If their OS is so great, why did they feel the need to switch processors and change it to run Windows?????

-

Um... to sell more. If "PC's" are so great, why are people buying Macs that run Windows?


----------



## tedwinder

Wooo hoooooo! Someone else who likes Mac's!


----------



## Guest

> Um... to sell more. If "PC's" are so great, why are people buying Macs that run Windows?


what people???...... 



> Wooo hoooooo! Someone else who likes Mac's!


shut up will you....mAC MASTER....


----------



## Yankee Rose

From the sounds of this thread, most Mac bashers are basing their opinions on an old, out-dated operating system (OS 7). 

That would be like using Windows 95 these days, if even that.

My suggestions is, and always has been, try Mac OS X. PLEASE do not "knock it" until you try it. You just might be surprised. 

If you still do not like it, after giving it a solid whirl, then I personally would be more inclined to listen to a legitimate opinion. Otherwise, it is pointless to argue whether one likes Mac OS or Windows OS better, basing the opinions on an old Mac OS.

It always amazes me how fast people are to bash Mac users, yet not Linux users....

Finally ..... Ted, you aren't going to find a lot of Mac lovers at TSG (I think you realize this). This is a Windows based forum. In my years here, I have seen the tide turn a little towards Mac/Apple. But there will always be the nay-sayers!


----------



## Guest

> Finally ..... Ted, you aren't going to find a lot of Mac lovers at TSG (I think you realize this). This is a Windows based forum. In my years here, I have seen the tide turn a little towards Mac/Apple. But there will always be the nay-sayers!


i agree with that statment. :up:


----------



## Stoner

Hi Yankee Rose 

I think some are taking this thread way too seriously.
I think Ted started it in fun by humorously needling us PC users in Random.
Looks like it got heated for a while.



> From the sounds of this thread, most Mac bashers are basing their opinions on an old, out-dated operating system (OS 7).


For me it's the cost of ownership versus what I need. I thought of a Mac for my first comp but everyone I knew was on a win PC, so if I needed (  ) help, I knew Windows was the way for me to go.
Right now, I have an investment in Windows based software and have no intention to rebuy for a different OS or even buy XP to dual boot a Mac and run what I have 



> That would be like using Windows 95 these days, if even that.


For me, the only detraction of 95 is the lack of USB support. Obviously, I'm not a power user _



> My suggestions is, and always has been, try Mac OS X. PLEASE do not "knock it" until you try it. You just might be surprised.


Thanks, but what I am currently using is more than just satisfactory for what I do and need 



> It always amazes me how fast people are to bash Mac users, yet not Linux users....


It's the pricing structure 
If it doesn't work....meh!.... What did you expect for free?


----------



## tedwinder

Mac is catching up!


----------



## Guest

> Mac is catching up!


dont get your hopes up mAC BOY!!!


----------



## tedwinder

Are you _still_ online?


----------



## Guest

STILL??? 


hey i sleep too ya know.... 

unlike the mAC fanatics....


somtimes my PC surfes the net by itself.


----------



## tedwinder

You were online ages ago, about 8:00 GMT!


----------



## Guest

the PC was left online all night.


----------



## tedwinder

If you had a mac it would automatically turn itself off when it realised no-one was using it


----------



## Guest

the windows have that too you know.

i have set my PC to hibernate every 2 hours.

if i dont work on it.

i was up late that night.


----------



## tedwinder

Just staying online to annoy me, eh?


----------



## Guest

you got it!!! :up: 

you are a smart boy!


----------



## tedwinder

I'll get you back.......


----------



## Guest

> I'll get you back.......


i'll get you back what???


----------



## tedwinder

Ermmm.....

I'll think of something!


----------



## tedwinder

You're_ still_ online! I have a secret plan up my sleeve!


----------



## Guest

eat my shorts mAC MASTER!!!


----------



## tedwinder

Hopefully this plan will work......


----------



## tedwinder

Yes, he's gone! :up:


----------



## Guest

i dont think so!!!

tu incroyable fanatique!!  


noofff!!!


----------



## tedwinder

*go Away!*


----------



## tedwinder

At last ! He's gone!  Actually, it was more interesting with him here, or maybe he's in invisible mode........


----------



## Guest

dont make me BUG you again you fanatique!

you asked for it!!!


----------



## tedwinder

Now what have I done........


----------



## Guest

what have i done!!!  

nooooooooooo..... 

démence agression!


----------



## matt-h

PC, i am just used to it. it plays all games and i personnal have no problem using it (most of the time). of course there are problems with pcs, and i think microsoft are a bunch of lying *******s and i do admire aspects of the mac and think that they have some good ideas. there is also the problem of cost etc, pcs are available everywhere, macs are limited and expensive, you can get a £1000 mac with a 32mb graphics card ffs!


----------



## Omega_Shadow

Yankee Rose said:


> It always amazes me how fast people are to bash Mac users, yet not Linux users....


I have had my fair share of Linux bashers come my way.  They all make the same baseless, pointless arguments that you are claiming we are making. Everyone has something they like/hate about all the OS's (which, I try to keep pointing out, is NOT the subject of this thread. It says PC (aka, HARDWARE) vs. mac (aka, HARDWARE). If this was an argument between OS's then it would be Windows Vs MacOS Vs Linux or something like that)

But if we must continue with the argument of the better OS then I am game. But I agree that you cant nitpick what you don't know. So I suggest this. Lets all give our reasons why we do or do not like a specific OS and then go from there.

YankeeRose, I have used MacOSX but in your defense for only short periods. That is the OS on my fathers mac and when I go over to his house I end up using it a tad. I just don't like the feel of it, the one button mouse, how EVERYTHING is in menus and did I mention the no-right-click driving me crazy? I feel like I am navigating though the OS with both hands tied behind my back and one leg chopped off. 
I do have to admit though that I kinda like the dashboard and created something like it in Linux using the panel options. All in all I don't think MacOSX is a bad OS, I mean my dad has not had very many problems with it so it cant be bad, but it drives a technically minded person like me nuts when I use it. Personal Preference? You bet. But so is your choice to use MacOSX 

Windows, what good can I say about it? It crashes. You fix it, it crashes. You turn it on, it crashes. You insult its mother, it flicks you off and then crashes. The only good thing you can say about this OS is a bad thing: At least Microsoft is spying on you when it crashes 

Linux, My personal choice and what I believe to be the Superior OS. In the last year that I have switched completely from windows to Linux I have had only one crash, and that was my fault cause I added an extra "2" to a config file and crashed my Xserver.  But that was easily fixed. 
Linux is what you want it to be. Within weeks of using Linux I was modifying the GUI, the mouse commands (I can now open firefox by pressing a button combo on my mouse) and how the system responds to tasks and maintenance. My OS is now perfectly tailored to my habits and whims. Not to mention 99.875% of all Linux distros and software for Linux is 100% legally FREE. If I need a program to back up my hard drive I don't have to go out and buy one. I just check the repositories for one, tell Linux to install it and just watch as Linux searches for, downloads and installs it for you.
And before anyone says it, the phrases "Linux is for geeks" or "Linux is too hard for normal people" are complete hogwash. My Ex, who can barley send an email in windows, is now using Linux without any help from me whatsoever. In her own words "Wow, this is easier to use then windows"

I eagerly await your opinions


----------



## jp1203

Omega_Shadow said:


> I have had my fair share of Linux bashers come my way.  They all make the same baseless, pointless arguments that you are claiming we are making. Everyone has something they like/hate about all the OS's (which, I try to keep pointing out, is NOT the subject of this thread. It says PC (aka, HARDWARE) vs. mac (aka, HARDWARE). If this was an argument between OS's then it would be Windows Vs MacOS Vs Linux or something like that)
> 
> But if we must continue with the argument of the better OS then I am game. But I agree that you cant nitpick what you don't know. So I suggest this. Lets all give our reasons why we do or do not like a specific OS and then go from there.
> 
> YankeeRose, I have used MacOSX but in your defense for only short periods. That is the OS on my fathers mac and when I go over to his house I end up using it a tad. I just don't like the feel of it, the one button mouse, how EVERYTHING is in menus and did I mention the no-right-click driving me crazy? I feel like I am navigating though the OS with both hands tied behind my back and one leg chopped off.
> I do have to admit though that I kinda like the dashboard and created something like it in Linux using the panel options. All in all I don't think MacOSX is a bad OS, I mean my dad has not had very many problems with it so it cant be bad, but it drives a technically minded person like me nuts when I use it. Personal Preference? You bet. But so is your choice to use MacOSX
> 
> Windows, what good can I say about it? It crashes. You fix it, it crashes. You turn it on, it crashes. You insult its mother, it flicks you off and then crashes. The only good thing you can say about this OS is a bad thing: At least Microsoft is spying on you when it crashes
> 
> Linux, My personal choice and what I believe to be the Superior OS. In the last year that I have switched completely from windows to Linux I have had only one crash, and that was my fault cause I added an extra "2" to a config file and crashed my Xserver.  But that was easily fixed.
> Linux is what you want it to be. Within weeks of using Linux I was modifying the GUI, the mouse commands (I can now open firefox by pressing a button combo on my mouse) and how the system responds to tasks and maintenance. My OS is now perfectly tailored to my habits and whims. Not to mention 99.875% of all Linux distros and software for Linux is 100% legally FREE. If I need a program to back up my hard drive I don't have to go out and buy one. I just check the repositories for one, tell Linux to install it and just watch as Linux searches for, downloads and installs it for you.
> And before anyone says it, the phrases "Linux is for geeks" or "Linux is too hard for normal people" are complete hogwash. My Ex, who can barley send an email in windows, is now using Linux without any help from me whatsoever. In her own words "Wow, this is easier to use then windows"
> 
> I eagerly await your opinions


I like Linux, I have Ubuntu 5.10 on my server (a Powermac G3 Blue and White). I would put Kubuntu Dapper on it, since I like KDE better, but I need the RAM upgrade for mine to come in (Another 512  ) so I can put the 128 in there, bump it to 352, which will let me run it.

I would put Linux on all my machines, but I do not have broadband internet, and can't get it. I find it extremely difficult to download a file and install it later, which is what I do with 2k.

Right now, it runs Ubuntu very nicely and for the almost month that it's been in service it has NEVER crashed. At one point it mysteriously stopped communicating with the network, after a reboot it was good. I blame Mac's NIC card.

I use mostly open-source/free software on my Windows boxes. Openoffice (alongside Office 2000), Scribus, Firefox, Thunderbird, NVU, VideoLAN, RealVNC, Inkscape, AVG, iSafer, Winamp, etc...

The day Peruvians can get broadband, I'll get it and switch to Linux.


----------



## jp1203

Omega_Shadow said:


> YankeeRose, I have used MacOSX but in your defense for only short periods. That is the OS on my fathers mac and when I go over to his house I end up using it a tad. I just don't like the feel of it, the one button mouse, how EVERYTHING is in menus and did I mention the no-right-click driving me crazy? I feel like I am navigating though the OS with both hands tied behind my back and one leg chopped off.
> I do have to admit though that I kinda like the dashboard and created something like it in Linux using the panel options. All in all I don't think MacOSX is a bad OS, I mean my dad has not had very many problems with it so it cant be bad, but it drives a technically minded person like me nuts when I use it. Personal Preference? You bet. But so is your choice to use MacOSX


Oh...don't get me started with the single-button mouse and the ctrl+click=right click

The mac mouse is like holding a sphere...not shaped to your hand in the least. I right-click A LOT and it drove me insane.

At school, policy thorough the district is to disable right-click, the IE file menu, and a LOT of other stuff on student accounts. That annoyed me, but I rarely deal with it because I am on the district PC manager's good side, and know the admin passwords, so I spend more time fixing things on Admin accounts than anything else.

Navigating through Mac OS (classic and X) was like XP's defaults to me. It is too easy to find simple things, and too hard to find advanced things.


----------



## AlexTs

Too bad you didn't think to just plug in a two-button mouse.



> This advice is reposted from the advice given by Tony Klein, the acknowledged spyware & malware expert who supports many forums on the net.
> 
> I have added a few minor updates to it
> 
> You usually get infected because your security settings are too low.
> 
> Here are a number of recommendations that will help tighten them, and which will contribute to making you a less likely victim:
> 
> 1) Watch what you download!
> Many freeware programs, and P2P programs like Grokster, Imesh, Kazaa and others are amongst the most notorious, come with an enormous amount of bundled spyware that will eat system resources, slow down your system, clash with other installed software, or just plain crash your browser or even Windows itself.
> 
> 2) Go to IE > Tools > Windows Update > Product Updates, and install ALL Security Updates listed.
> It's important to always keep current with the latest security fixes from Microsoft. Install those patches for Internet Explorer, and make sure your installation of Java VM is up-to-date. There are some well known security bugs with Microsoft Java VM which are exploited regularly by browser hijackers.
> 
> 3) Go to Internet Options/Security/Internet, press 'default level', then OK.
> Now press "Custom Level."
> In the ActiveX section, set the first two options ("Download signed and unsigned ActiveX controls) to 'prompt', and 'Initialize and Script ActiveX controls not marked as safe" to 'disable'.
> 
> Now you will be asked whether you want ActiveX objects to be executed and whether you want software to be installed.
> Sites that you know for sure are above suspicion can be moved to the Trusted Zone in Internet Option/security.
> 
> So why is activex so dangerous that you have to increase the security for it?
> When your browser runs an activex control, it is running an executable program. It's no different from doubleclicking an exe file on your hard drive.
> Would you run just any random file downloaded off a web site without knowing what it is and what it does?
> 
> And some more advice:
> 
> 4) Install Javacool's SpywareBlaster It will protect you from all spy/foistware in it's database by blocking installation of their ActiveX objects.
> Download and install, download the latest updates, and you'll see a list of all spyware programs covered by the program (NOTE: this is NOT spyware found on your computer)
> Press "select all", then "kill all checked", and you're done.
> The spyware that you told Spywareblaster to set the "kill bit" for won't be a hazard to you any longer.
> Although it won't protect you from every form of spyware known to man, it is a very potent extra layer of protection.
> Don't forget to check for updates every week or so.
> 
> Let's also not forget that SpyBot Search and Destroy has the Immunize feature which works roughly the same way.
> It can't hurt to use both.
> 
> 5) Another brilliant program by Javacool we recommend is SpywareGuard.
> It provides a degree of real-time protection solution against spyware that is a great addition to SpywareBlaster's protection method.
> 
> An anti-virus program scans files before you open them and prevents execution if a virus is detected - SpywareGuard does the same thing, but for spyware! And you can easily have an anti-virus program running alongside SpywareGuard. It now also features Download Protection and Browser Hijacking Protection!
> 
> 6) IE-SPYAD puts over 5000 sites in your restricted zone, so you'll be protected when you visit innocent-looking sites that aren't actually innocent at all.
> 
> 7) The IE hosts file blocks ads, banners, cookies, web bugs, and even most hijackers. This is accomplished by blocking the Server that supplies these little gems.
> Example - the following entry 127.0.0.1 ad.doubleclick.net blocks all files supplied by the DoubleClick Server to the web page you are viewing. This also prevents the server from tracking your movements.It Now includes most major parasites, hijackers and unwanted Search Engines!
> In many cases this can speed the loading of web pages by not having to wait for these ads, banners, hit counters, etc. to load.
> This also helps to protect your Privacy by blocking servers that track your viewing habits, known as "click-thru tracking".
> 
> However as time has progressed the focus of this project has changed from blocking ads/banners to protecting the user from the many parasites that now exist on the Internet. It doesn't serve much purpose if you block the ad banner from displaying, but get hijacked by a parasite from an evil script or download contained on the web site. The object is to surf faster while preserving your Safety, Security and Privacy.
> 
> Incidentally, another site with an enormous amount of information on computer security, and which is well worth a visit is http://www.wilderssecurity.com/
> 
> Finally, after following up on all these recommendations, why not run Jason Levine's Browser Security Tests.
> They will provide you with an insight on how vulnerable you might still be to a number of common exploits.
> 
> If you are using XP or windows 2000 or 2003 then this application will also help a lot to prevent hijacking
> https://www.prevx.com/homeoffice/pre.../prevxhome.htm
> 
> And make sure your Antivirus and firewall is switched on and kept updated


Or just use Mac OS X. What's ridiculous is that the above actions must be taken for even the most basic user.


----------



## tedwinder

What exactly is Linux?


----------



## AlexTs

Mac is the hip young professional. PC is the old fat nerd. Linux is the penniless hobo. Haven't you seen the ads??


----------



## tedwinder

There are no Linkux ads in the UK


----------



## AlexTs

makes sense... there are so many different flavors - that's *sort of* like saying "How come there aren't any Java ads?" or "How come there aren't any mp3 ads?"


----------



## tedwinder

Is there any way to see these Linux ads online?


----------



## AlexTs

What the ??? There's no such thing as a linux ad! Just like there's no such thing as a PHP ad! I was talking about the new Apple Ads, and the "stereotypes" used in them (the Linux/Hobo reference was hypothetical and a joke). Not funny if i have to explain it 

So, no.


----------



## tedwinder

Oh sorry!  

I've seen the Apple ads and I agree with them!:up:


----------



## Guest

> Oh sorry!
> 
> I've seen the Apple ads and I agree with them


how are you doing mAC MASTER?.

got any new votes lately??


----------



## KMW

okay I'll vote
'
'
'
'
'
'
'
'
PC 4 me C  
with windows to boot


----------



## VegasACF

AlexTs said:


> Too bad you didn't think to just plug in a two-button mouse.


Indeed. I've been using trackballs with 6-8 buttons on my Macs since the mid nineties.

And the whole argument is moot since the new Apple mouse is a _no_ button mouse.


----------



## jp1203

AlexTs said:


> Too bad you didn't think to just plug in a two-button mouse.
> 
> Or just use Mac OS X. What's ridiculous is that the above actions must be taken for even the most basic user.


I did use a two-button mouse, but right-clicking still didn't work without the Control button.

I didn't actually plan on keeping Mac OS at all, I wanted to use Linux, which I did.


----------



## Rockn

If OSX ran on a PC I might be willing to try it...without an emulator.



Yankee Rose said:


> From the sounds of this thread, most Mac bashers are basing their opinions on an old, out-dated operating system (OS 7).
> 
> That would be like using Windows 95 these days, if even that.
> 
> My suggestions is, and always has been, try Mac OS X. PLEASE do not "knock it" until you try it. You just might be surprised.
> 
> If you still do not like it, after giving it a solid whirl, then I personally would be more inclined to listen to a legitimate opinion. Otherwise, it is pointless to argue whether one likes Mac OS or Windows OS better, basing the opinions on an old Mac OS.
> 
> It always amazes me how fast people are to bash Mac users, yet not Linux users....
> 
> Finally ..... Ted, you aren't going to find a lot of Mac lovers at TSG (I think you realize this). This is a Windows based forum. In my years here, I have seen the tide turn a little towards Mac/Apple. But there will always be the nay-sayers!


----------



## tedwinder

But Microsoft are too selfish to let Apple run Mac OS X on their computers.


----------



## AlexTs

For some reason it's "ignorant" for people to say "Windows 3.1 was awful, I'm never going to use Windows," but not for them to have used a pre-unix OS X and still write it off.


----------



## Ayato Kamina

I use a mac and have a little PC in the corner I can use both very well and allot more then most, my first computer that I actually owned was a Mac although I grew up with the PC and I keep both handy, which I wont need to do anymore because Mac runs Windows OS now of course I have to buy a new Mac first and I don't have the money, it's only about 100 dollars though I prefer the mac, and I make mac software I'm actually working on a program that runs .exe files so you wont need to restart your computer to switch to windows os I'll probably make a cheap lameish free version then sell the really nice one for allot cheaper then Virtual PC once I'm done with that I'd like to make my own OS compatible with Mac computers that runs exactly like a mac yet has all the capabilities of the PC it'll look nice though like a Mac I started trying to make an OS years ago with the logo of a lizard on a melting rock surrounded by fire but it is pretty hard and I need more training I've learned allot since then and I'll learn allot more before. Anyways, my point is soon the PC will be completely obsolete because there will be nothing a mac can't do that a PC can, yet there will be many things a PC can't that a Mac can, and as for pricing macs aren't that expensive you think PC is cheap cause you get an old used one but so are the old used Macs and my comps 5 years old and it's better then some of the new PCs. Well hope you enjoyed reading my opinion and comments and facts, talk to you another time then.


----------



## Ayato Kamina

Those emulators suck, they're retarded.


----------



## Ayato Kamina

I think it's ignorant to base either on old software, and I think views on both are ignorant anything can be made to only work on Mac or PC people are making there judgement based on applications having nothing to do with the OS or computer the true basis should be on the computer its self not the contents and the OS and how it runs and works now being skilled in windows and mac I do know the benefits of using a windows computer and I do know how much easier it is to learn how to use and use a mac, most people either use a windows and don't like change so never try the mac or saw the mac said that looks easy and liked the mac and never tried to learn windows cause its so hard, but being on both sides I can make good judgement for both. Now for best work I see both being necessary but even if I couldn't use Windows XP on my mac I would chose a Mac instead of a PC if I could choose only one and since Mac now runs windows there is no point to use an IBM or HP or any other PC they're heavy hard to transport boring and pointlessly stupid although they do have the advantage of being able to take apart and remodify, just like the Windows OS advantage is well they can run .exe files that were made by people who don't use mac and you can access all data everywhere on the com easily which is why there are so many viruses I think. Macs advantages are they're light portable easy to set up and nice to look at, they're like a decoration heck I keep my computer in my living room or front room at home, and since I built the windows comp I have now from old parts its ugly although not more then a new one would be and it takes sooooooooo many wires that I have no idea how they always get so tangled, is why I stuff it in the corner, my mac barely has about 2 wires that actually go away from the computer and the reason it has so many is because of the extra drive I bought and not once have any of my mac wires gotten tangled. The Mac OS advantage is the ease of use and the no viruses and exceptional programs that can be run or made on it, and btw it isn't that hard to make a program and the software is free on the Apple/Mac site it's called Xcode I also use Wcode for widgets just because it makes as an organizer and it works and looks like Xcode, which I already know how to use although Wcode you'd have to find on Version Tracker some kid made it I assume since he says his name is bigboy or something. all free in fact allot and most good stuff I use on the Mac is free although the main good thing on windows would be games which all cost money actually I've only seen a hand full of windows progs for free although Version Tacker is an entire website full of programs most free for all OSs and I think that concludes this, have fun now...


----------



## Ayato Kamina

And I've never even seen a Linux before, Mac and PC are the only decent things out there really, other wise they'd have money to advertise... and since Mac is compatible with Windows as soon as it's found out PCs wont be considered decent anymore.


----------



## Ayato Kamina

You can download bootcamp which is the program allowing you to install Windows XP on the Apple/Mac site for free.


----------



## ferrija1

Go Windoze!!!!


----------



## Guest

> Go Windoze!!!!


this isn't the COKE OR PEPSI thread ya know!......


----------



## Ayato Kamina

what does windows have to do with mac or PC? it can be played on both so whats your answer?


----------



## amohn

I go Mac because even on my original bondie blue imac I didn&#8217;t have a problem until my cd drive wore out due to heavy use, and with only 128 megs of ram it still out preformed many pc's while playing online games


----------



## Stoner

http://www.theinquirer.net/default.aspx?article=32848

excerpt>>>


> THE MAC community is reeling in total disbelief after two of its greatest advocates have announced that they are dumping the system and moving to Ubuntu.


----------



## tedwinder

Thats bad..............but Mac is catching up!


----------



## ferrija1

tedwinder said:


> Thats bad..............but Mac is catching up!


Yeah right.


----------



## ferrija1

What I think are really cool are transformed PCs. Look at the gallery of desktops that are PCs turned into Macs here: http://www.osx-e.com/gallery/browseimages.php?c=507&userid=.


----------



## AlexTs

"Translucent Alien Weds Three-Headed Elvis Clone." I read it on Inquirer.


----------



## Stoner

AlexTs said:


> "Translucent Alien Weds Three-Headed Elvis Clone." I read it on Inquirer.


As I remember, they were Mac users.... ........


----------



## etaf

simply more applications for PC
I looked at a MAC laptop when I changed laptops in January and as a Photographer i was drawn to the MACS ... 
But I use a lot of different applications and wanted the versertlity


----------



## AlexTs

Nooooo... they're ubuntu users.


----------



## jp1203

tedwinder said:


> But Microsoft are too selfish to let Apple run Mac OS X on their computers.


That would not be up to MS in any way! It's up to Apple to make the OS run on a different platform. You keep acting like MS makes the hardware and software for all PCs, but they make the software or nothing, depending if you use Windows. (Unlesss you count the possible KB/Mouse from MS)


----------



## AlexTs

My Mac wants a different spokesperson.


----------



## tedwinder

etaf said:


> simply more applications for PC


Yeah, but you can either have a lot of not-so-good _programs_ for PC, and a little less, much better _applications_ for Mac.


----------



## tedwinder

Nice to see that 0DIN 0ERO hasn't posted for a while.


----------



## Guest

awwww....you missed me..

i am truly flattered.

hows it going...... ....mAC...... 

demence agression! 

all you macaroones eat my shorts!!!!


----------



## tedwinder

I haven't missed you! I said it was nice without you!


----------



## Guest

> I haven't missed you! I said it was nice without you!


well.....EXCUSE ME then....  

i best be going now.....


----------



## tedwinder

15 pages of argument.......and Mac is catchimg up - again!


----------



## Stoner

Perhaps you could convince the other two TSG mAC owners to log in and vote


----------



## jp1203

Mac'll never even tie with PC.


----------



## VegasACF

A BMW 745il will _never_ sell as many units as a Honda Civic.

I know which one _I'd_ rather drive, though.


----------



## tedwinder

Don't you worry, Mac _will_ catch up!


----------



## tedwinder

Ha Ha! I have won!


----------



## Guest

> Ha Ha! I have won!


are you still on with that....

just.....GIVE IT UP!

now you are even delusional.....


----------



## tedwinder

Not until Mac wins! Ha Ha Ha!


----------



## Guest

> Not until Mac wins! Ha Ha Ha!


in that case.......NEVER......


----------



## saltydawgs

macs are good until you see the infinite spinning beach ball of death


----------



## United

I like playing games. I chose PC.


----------



## Guest

> I like playing games. I chose PC


  :up:


----------



## tedwinder

Every heard of Aspyr? They make loads of games for Mac.


----------



## Gibble

Ok, jumping in a little late here but...I want to clear up a few things.

Mac is a hardware flatform, like PC. 
Macs were based on the Motorolla chipset, but not anymore.
PCs are based on the intel x86 architecture.
Macs had no competition in their market, it was apple or nothing.
PCs have AMD and Intel competing for processors, a dozen companies making motherboards, and countless companies making everything else, from memory to video cards to keyboards. Competition that keeps the prices down, and allow the purchaser to choose quality over price, or price over quality...whatever they desire.
Mac platforms can run MacOS, or *nix/BSD operating systems, and now with the new x86 architecture can also run Win operating systems.
PCs can run WinOS, *nix/BSD, and a plethora of other operating systems.

Comparing the software available on a MAC or PC is impossible, UNLESS you are comparing them running the same operating system...which would be *nix...and thus, would be the same software. And thus, is pointless. The question would be which runs the software BETTER.

A better poll, would be MacOS vs Windows. As that actually is the comparison that you probably intended. But, as a poll, windows will still win, simply because more people use windows. I don't think either operating system is great...both have advantages, and disadvantages.

The various flavours of *nix/bsd are my personal favourite, they are more stable than either Windows or MacOS.

But hey, if you want to carry on this pointless survey, go right ahead. The PC hardware architecture, is still superior to the MAC hardware architecture. It has competition, and greater flexibility, and customizabilty (if that's a word ).


----------



## VegasACF

ODIN 0ERO said:


> :up:


Yeah, poor me and my Mac. There aren't any games available for it. 

The upside to gaming on the Mac is that we don't have to wade through waist-deep piles of truly craptacular games to find one good one. Pretty much everything that comes to the Mac is a good game.

Sure, Mac game releases often lag behind their Windows counterparts, but that also means bug fixes are incorporated into the code that Windows users have to deal with right out of the gate.

Oh, and by the way, this Mac Book Pro that I'm typing this from has Windows XP Professional installed on it, so I can play any game that _you_ can play, _plus_ all the Mac titles.

Go figure.


----------



## Gibble

VegasACF said:


> Yeah, poor me and my Mac. There aren't any games available for it.
> 
> The upside to gaming on the Mac is that we don't have to wade through waist-deep piles of truly craptacular games to find one good one. Pretty much everything that comes to the Mac is a good game.
> 
> Sure, Mac game releases often lag behind their Windows counterparts, but that also means bug fixes are incorporated into the code that Windows users have to deal with right out of the gate.
> 
> Oh, and by the way, this Mac Book Pro that I'm typing this from has Windows XP Professional installed on it, so I can play any game that _you_ can play, _plus_ all the Mac titles.
> 
> Go figure.


That's because while it's labelled as a "Mac" it's no longer Apple (Motorolla) hardware, it's running on an x86 (PC) chipset.

So when you're running Windows XP Pro on your "Mac"...you are running a PC with a Windows OS. So you're now saying that it's "better" because it has the "Mac" name on it...when it's the EXACT same thing as an Intel/AMD Laptop running Windows XP Pro. It's like arguing a Sunfire is better than a Cavalier


----------



## Gibble

Ayato Kamina said:


> And I've never even seen a Linux before, Mac and PC are the only decent things out there really, other wise they'd have money to advertise... and since Mac is compatible with Windows as soon as it's found out PCs wont be considered decent anymore.


MacOS runs on a PC architecture now...your argument doesn't make any sense, your interchanging PC (hardware) with Windows (Operating System) and using the shortcomings of Windows as a knock on PC (hardware)...

...that's completely illogical.

As for linux, again, it's an operating system, that runs on either a Mac hardware platform, PC (x86) hardware platform, SPARC, etc, etc...

Now, the argument listed is Mac or PC, which would mean hardware, but very few people are actually debating the hardware, they are deriding the PC based on the shortcomings of ONE of the operating systems that it can run. Again, this is illogical and pointless, especially since Mac computers now come with PC hardware.

Like I said before, it's like comparing a cavalier to a sunfire...it's pointless.


----------



## JEBWrench

Syberia doesn't run on MacOS. Windows wins in my book. 

And the best MacOS game series are available on Windows - Myst, Myth and Marathon.


----------



## JEBWrench

And to the person who said that Linux doesn't have money to advertise, there's a reason the most popular open-source OS doesn't make a whole pile of money.


----------



## VegasACF

Gibble said:


> That's because while it's labelled as a "Mac" it's no longer Apple (Motorolla) hardware, it's running on an x86 (PC) chipset.


It's every bit as much Apple hardware as any other Apple computer that has ever been made. You think Motorola and Apple are the same thing? Sorry, but this could not be farther from the truth.



Gibble said:


> So when you're running Windows XP Pro on your "Mac"...you are running a PC with a Windows OS.


PC means personal computer. It doesn't matter what OS I'm running, it's always a PC.



Gibble said:


> So you're now saying that it's "better" because it has the "Mac" name on it...when it's the EXACT same thing as an Intel/AMD Laptop running Windows XP Pro. It's like arguing a Sunfire is better than a Cavalier


Perhaps you can point to the line where I said anything is better? I doubt it, because it never happened. I simply refuted the "argument" that there are no games available for the MacOS.


----------



## Gibble

VegasACF said:


> It's every bit as much Apple hardware as any other Apple computer that has ever been made. You think Motorola and Apple are the same thing? Sorry, but this could not be farther from the truth.


How can I debate you, if you can't comprehend basic English. I never said Motorolla was Apple...what I said was that it was running on an Intel architecture instead of the Motorolla architecture made for Apple. While the case, and some other components are still 'Apple' hardware, the processor IS NOT "every bit as much Apple hardware" because it's now the intel architecture that Intel and AMD create.



VegasACF said:


> PC means personal computer. It doesn't matter what OS I'm running, it's always a PC.


Thankyou for that captain obvious. What's your point? Because you completely missed mine. Mac are also personal computers, but since Apple no longer bundles their MacOS with the Mac hardware and runs it on an Intel chipset, when you install windows on it, you effectively have an Intel PC running windows, with the Mac name...which is no different than me taking a sharpie and writing "Mac" on a Intel PC. So the argument you made "_Oh, and by the way, this Mac Book Pro that I'm typing this from has Windows XP Professional installed on it, so I can play any game that you can play, plus all the Mac titles. _" is simply stupid. As it would be no different than me saying I installed MacOS on my Intel laptop so now I can use all my windows and mac apps...it's a wash now.



VegasACF said:


> Perhaps you can point to the line where I said anything is better? I doubt it, because it never happened. I simply refuted the "argument" that there are no games available for the MacOS.


Uhh...the line I quoted wasn't even talking about games...and was clearly an attempt to show the superiority of your "Mac Book Pro" being able to run Windows XP, so you can run any software title made for Windows or MacOS...but hey, if you want to be intellectually dishonest, carry on, I'm not going to stop you.


----------



## Skivvywaver

I build my own machines. I picked PC. And while a Mac may "try" to run some of the games I run very well at very high resolutions. It just can't happen right now and I do not care if you do have windows installed.

The reason? Lack of hardware. Get some dual GPU going and maybe, but the last I heard you where limited to one GPU on a Mac. 

Other than the fact that you can not build your own Mac..........yet at least, I will be happy with my PC.

I avoided this thread like the plague and will go back to avoiding it now.


----------



## Stoner

But you voted anyway, didn't you 

Hi Skivvy _


----------



## Skivvywaver

Yeah, I voted.  Hiya Jack. :up:


----------



## VegasACF

Gibble said:


> How can I debate you, if you can't comprehend basic English.


I understand it quite well. Apparently far better than you. And if you're going to debate something you'd be well served to know something about that which you will be debating. It appears your information is quite faulty in a number of areas.

Let's look at precisely what you said, shall we?



Gibble said:


> That's because while it's labelled as a "Mac" it's no longer Apple (Motorolla) hardware, it's running on an x86 (PC) chipset.


See the (mispelled) Motorola in the parentheses after the word "Apple"? That means you think the two are equivalent. They're not.



Gibble said:


> I never said Motorolla was Apple...what I said was that it was running on an Intel architecture instead of the Motorolla architecture made for Apple.


So what? It's just the CPU. Guess what... The DVD drives in the two of the last three Macs I bought were made by Pioneer. The one in this Mac Book Pro was made by Matsu****a. It's still an Apple computer.



Gibble said:


> While the case, and some other components are still 'Apple' hardware, the processor IS NOT "every bit as much Apple hardware" because it's now the intel architecture that Intel and AMD create.


And here is where your "argument" fails. The processor in every Mac from the original one in 1984 to the G5 was made by Motorola, not by Apple. And yet the computer was still an Apple computer. Now the processor is made by Intel. And yet the computer is still an Apple computer, every bit as much as any _other_ Apple computer ever has been.



Gibble said:


> Thankyou for that captain obvious. What's your point? Because you completely missed mine.


That's _General_ Obvious, to you. You repeatedly use the term "PC" to mean something other than a Mac. I thought it was worth mentioning that Macs are PCs, too. And your "point" is flawed. If I buy an engine for a Ford that is made by Cummins to replace the engine made by Ford does the car magically become something other than a Ford? Nope. It's still a Ford.



Gibble said:


> Mac are also personal computers, but since Apple no longer bundles their MacOS with the Mac hardware and runs it on an Intel chipset, when you install windows on it, you effectively have an Intel PC running windows, with the Mac name...which is no different than me taking a sharpie and writing "Mac" on a Intel PC.


Wow, you're _way_ out in left field on this one. Every Mac I've ever purchased has shipped with Mac OS, including this Mac Book Pro. And there is a _huge_ difference between taking a Sharpie and writing "Mac" on an Intel PC. Care to take a stab at what it is? Oh, never mind. You'd probably never guess, so I'll just tell you: The ability to run the Mac OS.



Gibble said:


> So the argument you made "_Oh, and by the way, this Mac Book Pro that I'm typing this from has Windows XP Professional installed on it, so I can play any game that you can play, plus all the Mac titles. _" is simply stupid.


That wasn't an argument, Skippy. That was a response to someone saying there are no games available for Macs. There are, and they can be from either side of the platform aisle now.



Gibble said:


> As it would be no different than me saying I installed MacOS on my Intel laptop so now I can use all my windows and mac apps...it's a wash now.


Except for the fact that you can't install the Mac OS on your Intel laptop unless it's an _Apple_ Intel.



Gibble said:


> Uhh...the line I quoted wasn't even talking about games...and was clearly an attempt to show the superiority of your "Mac Book Pro" being able to run Windows XP, so you can run any software title made for Windows or MacOS...but hey, if you want to be intellectually dishonest, carry on, I'm not going to stop you.


----------



## Stoner

> If I buy an engine for a Ford that is made by Cummins to replace the engine made by Ford does the car magically become something other than a Ford? Nope. It's still a Ford.


A damn heavy Ford


----------



## AlexTs

Wow, that was just like watching fundie-kidxtians getting pwnd by the bio prof.


----------



## Stoner

tedwinder said:


> This poll has gone horribly wrong.........
> 
> .........
> ........
> ......


mornin' Ted 

same old, same old....I see


----------



## Yankee Rose

Hi Gibble:

I am wondering if you have ever used Mac OSX. CYA......


----------



## Gibble

Yankee Rose said:


> Hi Gibble:
> 
> I am wondering if you have ever used Mac OSX. CYA......


Yeah, not often, but I use it from time to time, my sister is a graphics designer and I occasionally get to use the machine.

But really...what's that have to do with anything? Where did I ever say anything negative about the Mac OS?


----------



## Gibble

VegasACF said:


> See the (mispelled) Motorola in the parentheses after the word "Apple"? That means you think the two are equivalent. They're not.


So ... my typo means I think they are the same? Wow...that's quite the leap of logic there! I allready clarified what I said...quit building strawmen.



VegasACF said:


> So what? It's just the CPU. Guess what... The DVD drives in the two of the last three Macs I bought were made by Pioneer. The one in this Mac Book Pro was made by Matsu****a. It's still an Apple computer.


"Just the CPU"...you're kidding right? That's like saying "it's just your brain".



VegasACF said:


> And here is where your "argument" fails. The processor in every Mac from the original one in 1984 to the G5 was made by Motorola, not by Apple. And yet the computer was still an Apple computer. Now the processor is made by Intel. And yet the computer is still an Apple computer, every bit as much as any _other_ Apple computer ever has been.


No, my argument doesn't fall apart at all...I never said it wasn't an apple computer, but when it's using Intel processors, it's the same hardware as an Intel PC, thus, trying to compare the two, is pointless, they are the same thing with different names, like a Cavalier, and a Sunfire. The EXACT same car, with a few cosmetic differences.



VegasACF said:


> That's _General_ Obvious, to you. You repeatedly use the term "PC" to mean something other than a Mac. I thought it was worth mentioning that Macs are PCs, too. And your "point" is flawed. If I buy an engine for a Ford that is made by Cummins to replace the engine made by Ford does the car magically become something other than a Ford? Nope. It's still a Ford.


Again, learn to read. I never said a Mac wasn't a PC, in fact, I specifically said "Macs are also personal computers". And yes, if put a Cummins engine into a Ford, it's still a "Ford", but if it ends up being faster or stronger than some other car, you can't say it's better because it's a Ford...it's better because you put in a Cummins engine!



VegasACF said:


> Wow, you're _way_ out in left field on this one. Every Mac I've ever purchased has shipped with Mac OS, including this Mac Book Pro. And there is a _huge_ difference between taking a Sharpie and writing "Mac" on an Intel PC. Care to take a stab at what it is? Oh, never mind. You'd probably never guess, so I'll just tell you: The ability to run the Mac OS.


Funny...since you can now get Mac OS to run on an Intel PC, albeit, with limited hardware support. So again...you're simply wrong.



VegasACF said:


> That wasn't an argument, Skippy. That was a response to someone saying there are no games available for Macs. There are, and they can be from either side of the platform aisle now.


Again...if you can't understand how intellectually dishonest this is...you're crazy. I'm not even going to bother going and c/p'ing the conversation here again. Dual booting with windows so you can run Windows games, isn't a valid reason for Mac's being better, you're running on Intel hardware with WinOS...NOTHING BUT THE NAME ON THE BOX makes it a Mac anymore.



VegasACF said:


> Except for the fact that you can't install the Mac OS on your Intel laptop unless it's an _Apple_ Intel.


*bzzt* wrong! 
http://wiki.osx86project.org/wiki/index.php/HCL
I admit, support can be flakey because of the proprietary nature of the Mac OS, and poor third party hardware support...but that's not the point.



VegasACF said:


>


Roll your eyes, I really don't care...the proof is allready there for anybody to go back and read.


----------



## VegasACF

Gibble said:


> So ... my typo means I think they are the same? Wow...that's quite the leap of logic there! I allready clarified what I said...quit building strawmen.


No, your "typo" was funny because you had just chastised me for what you perceived as a lack of understanding of "basic English". When you're going to do such a thing it's generally best not to make stupid mistakes with the language. You might want to review the proper use of quotation marks, too. You know, "basic English" stuff.

Such a use of parentheses means the writer thinks the two are interchangeable. Otherwise one would have used one or the other, but not both.

Since you seem to be partial to automotive analogies, here are some examples:

 They installed new Lexus (Toyota) parts in my LS400.
 The mechanic told me that he would have to order a new part from Acura (Honda) to make my car road-worthy.

See how that works?

Now if someone were to say, "I got new Goodyear (Nissan) tires" the implication is that Nissan and Goodyear are the same thing. They are not. Now compare to your use of "Apple (Motorolla)" [sic] to the "Goodyear (Nissan)" analogy. See the corrolation?



Gibble said:


> "Just the CPU"...you're kidding right? That's like saying "it's just your brain".


It's just a component of the computer. Apple has switched processor families in the Macintosh product line three times. And yet the computer that housed the processor has always been, and will always be, an Apple computer. Same thing with an Intel chipset installed. It's still an Apple computer.



Gibble said:


> No, my argument doesn't fall apart at all...I never said it wasn't an apple computer, but when it's using Intel processors, it's the same hardware as an Intel PC, thus, trying to compare the two, is pointless, they are the same thing with different names, like a Cavalier, and a Sunfire. The EXACT same car, with a few cosmetic differences.


Your words, exactly as you typed them:



Gibble said:


> That's because while it's labelled as a "Mac" *it's no longer Apple (Motorolla) hardware*, it's running on an x86 (PC) chipset.


(emphasis added)

See the "(Motorolla)" [sic]? That means you think that Motorola hardware is Apple hardware. It's not. It's hardware that Apple chose to use in their computers. Same thing applies to the Intel processors now found in Macs.



Gibble said:


> Again, learn to read. I never said a Mac wasn't a PC, in fact, I specifically said "Macs are also personal computers". And yes, if put a Cummins engine into a Ford, it's still a "Ford", but if it ends up being faster or stronger than some other car, you can't say it's better because it's a Ford...it's better because you put in a Cummins engine!


Again, I will quote you, since you don't seem to recall what you have typed:



Gibble said:


> Mac is a hardware flatform, like PC.


But a Mac _is_, and always _has been_ a PC, regardless of the OS it runs.



Gibble said:


> Macs were based on the Motorolla chipset, but not anymore.


But a Mac _is_, and always _has been_ a PC, regardless of the OS it runs.



Gibble said:


> PCs are based on the intel x86 architecture.


But a Mac _is_, and always _has been_ a PC, regardless of the OS it runs.



Gibble said:


> PCs have AMD and Intel competing for processors...


But a Mac _is_, and always _has been_ a PC, regardless of the OS it runs.



Gibble said:


> Mac platforms can run MacOS, or *nix/BSD operating systems, and now with the new x86 architecture can also run Win operating systems.


But a Mac _is_, and always _has been_ a PC, regardless of the OS it runs.



Gibble said:


> PCs can run WinOS, *nix/BSD, and a plethora of other operating systems.


But a Mac _is_, and always _has been_ a PC, regardless of the OS it runs.



Gibble said:


> Funny...since you can now get Mac OS to run on an Intel PC, albeit, with limited hardware support. So again...you're simply wrong.


The builds of Mac OS that have been hacked to run on a non-Apple Intel computer are not legal, and, therefore are not worth mention. Perhaps _you_ have no problems with breaking U.S. and international intellectual property laws, but _I_ do have a problem with it.



Gibble said:


> So when you're running Windows XP Pro on your "Mac"...you are running a PC with a Windows OS.


But a Mac _is_, and always _has been_ a PC, regardless of the OS it runs.



Gibble said:


> Again...if you can't understand how intellectually dishonest this is...you're crazy. I'm not even going to bother going and c/p'ing the conversation here again. Dual booting with windows so you can run Windows games, isn't a valid reason for Mac's being better, you're running on Intel hardware with WinOS...NOTHING BUT THE NAME ON THE BOX makes it a Mac anymore.


I don't see where I said the Macintosh was better. I've always said "use whatever works best for you." But thanks for playing.



Gibble said:


> Roll your eyes, I really don't care...the proof is allready there for anybody to go back and read.


I have, and I continue to do so. The proof is, indeed, there. I quoted a bunch of it above.


----------



## Gibble

First, I'm using PC as the alternative to Mac, allthough Mac is a PC, simply because saying "Intel/AMD" is more characters, and secondly READ THE BLOODY POLL? If the options are Mac or PC, clearly, the author deemed PC to refer to PCs *excluding* Mac's...otherwise the poll is even more asinine than it allready is. It has to do with common nomenclature, we refer to the two as being different, despite one being a subset of the other. Comprende?

Second, as has been brought up a dozen times, is this a poll about hardware or the OS? If it's about hardware, the question is between Mac and 'PC'. And since both use the same hardware now, neither can be better or worse than the other. If this is a poll about the most common OS installed on either machine, MacOS or WinOS, then the poll is flawed and should be changed to reflect that.

Too once again bring up the car analogy. Arguing which engine is better, between a chevy with a ford engine, and a dodge with a ford engine is pointless...they are the same, who cares if one is called a chevy and the other a dodge, their engines are made by the same company, and operate the same. You can argue about the asthetics, and the usability of the two, but that comes down to personal preference.

I really, have completely lost what you were trying to say in the first place?

You're denying you said the Mac was better, yet you voted for it, AND said the following


VegasACF said:


> Yeah, poor me and my Mac. There aren't any games available for it.
> 
> The upside to gaming on the Mac is that we don't have to wade through waist-deep piles of truly craptacular games to find one good one. Pretty much everything that comes to the Mac is a good game.
> 
> Sure, Mac game releases often lag behind their Windows counterparts, but that also means bug fixes are incorporated into the code that Windows users have to deal with right out of the gate.
> 
> Oh, and by the way, this Mac Book Pro that I'm typing this from has Windows XP Professional installed on it, so I can play any game that _you_ can play, _plus_ all the Mac titles.
> 
> Go figure.


Which is very "pro-Mac", at least in my mind. And it was your last point I was trying to explain to you. You point out that you can play windows games on your Mac...but when you have the same hardware as a 'PC' and install WinOS on it to run windows software, it's no longer a "Mac".


----------



## VegasACF

Gibble said:


> First, I'm using PC as the alternative to Mac, allthough Mac is a PC, simply because saying "Intel/AMD" is more characters, and secondly READ THE BLOODY POLL? If the options are Mac or PC, clearly, the author deemed PC to refer to PCs *excluding* Mac's...otherwise the poll is even more asinine than it allready is.


I did not create the poll, and cannot be held accountable for its overall worth.



Gibble said:


> Too once again bring up the car analogy. Arguing which engine is better, between a chevy with a ford engine, and a dodge with a ford engine is pointless...they are the same, who cares if one is called a chevy and the other a dodge, their engines are made by the same company, and operate the same. You can argue about the asthetics, and the usability of the two, but that comes down to personal preference.


A Chevy with a Ford engine? A Dodge with a Ford engine? Mmmkay.



Gibble said:


> I really, have completely lost what you were trying to say in the first place?


It's really quite clear.



Gibble said:


> You're denying you said the Mac was better, yet you voted for it...


The poll simply says "Mac or PC?" It doesn't ask which is better, which you prefer to use, which you have more of, which is first alphabetically, or anything else. It just says, "Mac or PC?" Since five of the seven computers that lay before me are Apple Macintosh I selected the Mac option. So what?



Gibble said:


> AND said the following


Yes. And if you look at that post you'll find I quoted and replied to the following:



ODIN 0ERO said:


> United said:
> 
> 
> 
> I like playing games. I chose PC.
> 
> 
> 
> :up:
Click to expand...

...by saying that there _are_ games for the Mac, and now I can play Windows games, too.



Gibble said:


> Which is very "pro-Mac", at least in my mind.


I cannot and will not be held liable for the workings of your mind. That is a product of things beyond my sphere of influence.



Gibble said:


> And it was your last point I was trying to explain to you.


You need not explain my points to me. I made them. Therefore I have a pretty good grasp on what I was saying.



Gibble said:


> You point out that you can play windows games on your Mac...but when you have the same hardware as a 'PC' and install WinOS on it to run windows software, it's no longer a "Mac".


Which is an _utterly_ ridiculous statement. If I install Linux on a Dell is it suddenly no longer a Dell? By your "logic" the answer would have to be "no". This is fallacious, at best.


----------



## Gibble

I'm not even going to bother responding anymore. Your dell comment just proved to me your too ignorant about the topic to ever comprehend what I'm saying.


----------



## Nick8539

wow wow wow! alot of hostility!!  

cant we all just get along and vote MAC???

lol. JK i like them both, had a iBook G4 for a while and looking to buy a macbook pro or possibly an iMac. Love the Mac....:up: 

i like PC too.:down:


----------



## VegasACF

Nick8539 said:


> wow wow wow! alot of hostility!!


Such is the case when whatever leg someone had to stand upon has been knocked not only out from under him/her, but across the room, out the door, across the street and into the next county.

And, just in case anyone thinks I'm being hostile in the slightest, rest assured I'm not. My heart rate has been the same throughout this "conversation" as it is when it is at its normal resting rate (approximately 67 bpm), and I've not even _thought_ about breaking a sweat. In fact, I _thrive_ upon things such as this. I guess that's why I'll be a lawyer in a year. I only hope the majority of my opponents in that realm are as ill-prepared as was this one.



Giblets said:


> but when you have the same hardware as a 'PC' and install WinOS on it to run windows software, it's no longer a "Mac".





Same "argument" said:


> but when you have the same hardware as a 'PC' and install Linux on it to run Linux software, it's no longer a "Dell".


Anyone else see any problems with this position? I mean, other than the fact that it's untenable, and is his/her words come back to haunt him/her?



Giblets said:


> Your dell comment just proved to me your too ignorant about the topic to ever comprehend what I'm saying.


I understand _precisely_ what you're saying. But just because you say it doesn't make it true, at least for the rest of the world. What you're saying is simply and irrevocably _wrong_.

At least s/he used the correct form of "to/too/two" this time (must be that superior clench upon the English language finally making itself known--homophones can be tricky little buggers*). And we need not fear yet another excursion into the land of make-believe, since s/he will no longer respond.

I'll give him/her a chit (or maybe just a hanging chad) in the tenacity column, though. S/he just didn't know the person to whom he was responding was willing and able to stand toe to toe and point out the delusions which guided him/her.

* I feel the need to add to this a statement regarding attacks upon someone's (mis)use of a language (whatever it is). Had my grasp on complete and total apprehension of the English language not been called into question (once, let alone twice or thrice), I would never have gone down that road. I've had many enlightening conversations, be they verbal or written, with people who could not claim such a thing. However, once that shot was fired the gloves were off. I find it particularly humorous when someone questions another's understanding of a language and then proceeds to make mistake after mistake, however small they may be, as was the case in this interchange of ideas. Have no fear from similar onslaught from me, lest you hurl similar charges in my direction. However, if you do, batten down the hatches. I'm going to be watching every letter you type to make certain you have the requisite skills to ever call into question _my_ linguistic acumen.


----------



## Gibble

My words don't come back to haunt me...you're under the misconception that Dell is somehow different from a Compaq or generic PC in anything other than name. It's not. Thus, your changing of my comment to '_when you have the same hardware as a 'PC' and install Linux on it to run Linux software, it's no longer a "Dell"._' is illogical, hence my comment that you're too ignorant to have this conversation with me.

As for your final comments about my argument being wrong...you're in school to be a lawyer. I'm a computer programmer. Who do you think knows more about this topic?


----------



## VegasACF

Gibble said:


> As for your final comments about my argument being wrong...you're in school to be a lawyer. I'm a computer programmer. Who do you think knows more about this topic?


Oh, gee, I thought you weren't going to reply further. Shame.

Before attending law school I was the head of tech support for a major (cross-platform) music software company. I was the one who caught each and every bug that people such as yourself created.

Care to respond further? I'll be glad to take you down a few more pegs.

Here's a lesson for you that Sun Tzu could have long ago taught you: Know your enemy better than you know yourself.


----------



## Gibble

VegasACF said:


> Oh, gee, I thought you weren't going to reply further. Shame.
> 
> Before attending law school I was the head of tech support for a major (cross-platform) music software company. I was the one who caught each and every bug that people such as yourself created.
> 
> Care to respond further? I'll be glad to take you down a few more pegs.
> 
> Here's a lesson for you that Sun Tzu could have long ago taught you: Know your enemy better than you know yourself.


Well Andy, if you think you've taken me down any pegs...think again.

So you can find bugs, kudos to you...sorry, us programmers are human, we can't make everything idiot proof. The reason we hire people to find bugs, and work tech support, is because our time is too valuable to waste answering questions that ussually amount to the user doing something mind numbingly stupid that we couldn't forsee them ever trying. And to pat myself on the back, in the five plus years working here...I've never had a bug in my code once it's been released. Wow...I never really thought about it before...but yeah, not one I can think of.

Being in tech support is like being the tire guy for a mechanic. You may be standing next to the mechanic that knows what he's doing...and maybe you can turn a wrench...but it doesn't mean you know anything near what the mechanic does.


----------



## VegasACF

Giblets said:


> Well Andy, if you think you've taken me down any pegs...think again.


Your opinion of yourself means little. And, oooooh, I bow to your prodigious Googling skills.



Giblets said:


> So you can find bugs, kudos to you...sorry, us programmers are human, we can't make everything idiot proof.


_We_ programmers are human. For future reference, take the modifier out of the sentence and see if it makes sense. "Us are human" is not grammatically correct. "We are human" _does_ make sense. Add back in the modifier "programmers" and you have the correct construction. I'm guessing diagramming sentences wasn't in the curriculum when you went to school.

As soon as you make something idiot proof they'll build a better idiot. You appear to be the latest build. Congratulations on that.



Giblets said:


> The reason we hire people to find bugs, and work tech support, is because our time is too valuable to waste answering questions that ussually amount to the user doing something mind numbingly stupid that we couldn't forsee them ever trying.


"Usually" has _one_ "S" in it. "Mind-numbingly" should be hyphenated. And your job, as a programmer, should be to expect the unexpected. Ignorance is bliss.



Giblets said:


> And to pat myself on the back, in the five plus years working here...I've never had a bug in my code once it's been released. Wow...I never really thought about it before...but yeah, not one I can think of.


Or, at least, not one that you've been made aware of. If you show the same faux magnificence at work that you do here it's no wonder you've been kept out of the loop. A person is better measured by the mistakes they admit to than those they ignore.



Giblets said:


> Being in tech support is like being the tire guy for a mechanic. You may be standing next to the mechanic that knows what he's doing...and maybe you can turn a wrench...but it doesn't mean you know anything near what the mechanic does.


Heh. I wonder if your compadres in "tech support" share the same feelings for you. I bet you're their favorite person. In fact, I bet you're the programming equivalent of

010101000110100001100101001000000101001101100101011000110110111101101110011001000010000001000011011011110110110101101001011011100110011100100000011011110110011000100000010000110110100001110010011010010111001101110100

Hey, keep on doing what you're doing. Karma will someday catch up.

Are we done now, or do you wish to continue this tête-à-tête (that's French, by the way--thought I'd clue you in since you have _so much_ regard for the proper use of language)?


----------



## JEBWrench

My dad can beat up your dad.


----------



## Stoner

And most of the auto engine analogies sucked


----------



## VegasACF

Yes, but I can pee farther than _any_ of you. At least I once could. Hell, I bet my son could out-pee us all!


----------



## Stoner

VegasACF said:


> Yes, but I can pee farther than _any_ of you. At least I once could. Hell, I bet my son could out-pee us all!




Some things just don't age as well as fine wine


----------



## Gibble

VegasACF said:


> Your opinion of yourself means little.


As does your opinion of me.



VegasACF said:


> _We_ programmers are human.


Thanks for the grammar lesson 



VegasACF said:


> As soon as you make something idiot proof they'll build a better idiot.


Couldn't agree more.



VegasACF said:


> "Usually" has _one_ "S" in it. "Mind-numbingly" should be hyphenated. And your job, as a programmer, should be to expect the unexpected. Ignorance is bliss.


 Aren't you wanting to become a lawyer? An argument cannot be successfully rebutted by smearing the person who express them with broad "ad hominem" attacks.



VegasACF said:


> Or, at least, not one that you've been made aware of. If you show the same faux magnificence at work that you do here it's no wonder you've been kept out of the loop. A person is better measured by the mistakes they admit to than those they ignore.


Actually, if there's a problem, I do find out about them. Rather quickly...sadly, with no help desk, the users call the programmers directly. But not all problems are bugs. For some reason, users think we can maginally know when they made a typo...



VegasACF said:


> Heh. I wonder if your compadres in "tech support" share the same feelings for you. I bet you're their favorite person. In fact, I bet you're the programming equivalent of
> 
> 010101000110100001100101001000000101001101100101011000110110111101101110011001000010000001000011011011110110110101101001011011100110011100100000011011110110011000100000010000110110100001110010011010010111001101110100
> 
> Hey, keep on doing what you're doing. Karma will someday catch up.
> 
> Are we done now, or do you wish to continue this tête-à-tête (that's French, by the way--thought I'd clue you in since you have _so much_ regard for the proper use of language)?


Like I said, we don't have tech support...I get the calls. I'm Canadian, I know some french


----------



## VegasACF

Stoner said:


> Some things just don't age as well as fine wine


Oh, man, are you correct on that!

This past weekend we had a bottle of ten-year-old Silver Oak cab with dinner (we were celebrating with relatives my son's second birthday)... Damn that was a good cab.

Are you a wine fan? I've got stories, should it come to that. PM me if so.


----------



## Stoner

> Are you a wine fan? I've got stories, should it come to that. PM me if so.


Sadly, no.......allergy problems of late. I used to drink a beer or two, but those days are gone for me 

I used to love a RollingRock and a large warm soft pretzel at a friendly local pub.


----------



## VegasACF

Gibble said:


> I'm Canadian, I know some french


My condolences. 

At least now it appears we're getting beyond the bravado and into what might pass as "real".

I have no beef with you, personally. I'm sure you're a programmer _par excellence_. And don't for a moment doubt that I have a _firm_ grasp on my native tongue. I speak better English than many English people do (as confirmed by a girl I dated for several years from Peterborough, East Anglia, England, as well as many, many months spent in the U.K.).

My final points are as follows:

(1) It doesn't matter what OS you're running, it's a PC (unless you're at whatever NORAD is now called, or a similarly-eqipped facility, be it private or public)

(2) The OS doesn't make the hardware, any more than the hardware makes the OS

(3) An Apple Macintosh, of whatever vintage and whatever processor family, is still an Apple Macintosh, regardless of the CPU that powers it

(4) Apple computers (the hardware) have a quality of build that goes beyond the likes I've seen from the vast majority of computer manufacturers, and even if point (3) were not true (though I contend it _is_), the quality of workmanship that goes into an Apple computer leads to a better user experience than the Compaq I've got behind me, the Dell that sits cater-cornered to me, or almost any of the other non-Apple-branded computers with which I've come into contact. The lone exception to this would be the PC that ran the ORAD system that the video post facility I worked for used. _That_ was a solidly built machine, any way you slice it.

So, there we have it. Ad hominems flying in both directions, nothing truly gained by the experience, other than a little bit of knowledge about each other. C'est la guerre (there's some more French for you).

Have a nice day.


----------



## VegasACF

Stoner said:


> Sadly, no.......allergy problems of late. I used to drink a beer or two, but those days are gone for me


That is truly a sad state of affairs. I'm deeply sorry about that. But, hey, more for me, right? 

Okay, but how about the Caesar Salad at the Racquet Club atop the Kettering Tower? Or the Bananas Foster? Each is prepared table-side. And they're both good enough you can _almost_ forget about anything in between...

Or not...

Yeah, I tend to like fine wine and fine dining. Sue me. Well, give me a year. _Then_ sue me.

(at the very least you've got a checking account at Fifth Third, right?)


----------



## Stoner

Fifth Third 


I also miss the damn pretzels.. ......


----------



## tedwinder

I think I have a way to settle this. Whoever posts the 1000th post, their side wins. OK?


----------



## AlexTs

That makes about as much sense as the other reasons you've offered up as to why Macs are better than PC's.


----------



## Yankee Rose

Gibble said:


> But really...what's that have to do with anything? Where did I ever say anything negative about the Mac OS?


I never said you did, Gibble. I was just curious as to your experience with the OS in regards to your opinion in this thread.


----------



## Stoner

tedwinder said:


> I think I have a way to settle this. Whoever posts the 1000th post, their side wins. OK?


I would hope this thread would die long before that 

Let's settle the issue with the 269th post


----------



## tedwinder

I think not. 500th.


----------



## loserOlimbs

I voted. Thats all I've got right now. Never liked the Macs. Last time I used one was right when the switch to 10 came about. Didn't like 9 and 10 locked up my dual core G4.

I can live with lockups from time to time, but my PC doesn't lock up, and I like its OSes feel.


----------



## loserOlimbs

tedwinder said:


> You're forgetting that this thread is new......
> 
> Soon there will be loads of people voting and guess what? They'll all vote Mac!


By the way, this is my favorite post thus far...


----------



## Stoner

This was my all time favorite :



> Originally Posted by tedwinder
> This poll has gone horribly wrong.........
> 
> .........
> ........
> ......


----------



## loserOlimbs

Its great too......

Makes me giggle that he made this prediction, moves it to the make forum, and still gets his clock cleaned!


----------



## tedwinder

You just wait...................


----------



## Stoner

You're a good sport, Ted........:up:

If I needed a new computer, I'd probably give Macs a look see out of curiosity.
To be honest, I'm not very wild about Vista from the feed back and comments I read about the beta versions.
And I'm hearing too many complaints about branded box quality, so if I did move up the ladder in a Windows PC, I would probably build my own and put win2k on it.
Right now I really don't need an upgrade and still use 98se most of the time.


----------



## tedwinder

Thanks, Stoner! 

Why not put Windows XP on though?


----------



## Stoner

tedwinder said:


> Thanks, Stoner!
> 
> Why not put Windows XP on though?


Mornin' Ted 

A couple reasons. One is price  The other is that one of the apps I have ( L&H voice recognition) runs better on win2k than XP as it's a forced install on XP and needs some mods and loses some functionality. I have a laptop currently running XP and L&H. L&H 'works' but it runs better on 2k and even 98se 

For me,I don't see much advantage to XP over 2k anyway other than the 'eye candy'...... that I turned off.


----------



## tedwinder

Oh, I see.


----------



## tedwinder

Right. Each side has to give 5 reasons why their side is better that the other.

1. Best design ever
2. Easy to use interface (OS X 10.4.7)
3. More powerful, therefore more capable programs
4. NO VIRUSES!
5. Very simple to use


----------



## Stoner

tedwinder said:


> Right. Each side has to give 5 reasons why their side is better that the other.
> 
> .........
> ......
> ......


No I don't


----------



## Stoner

Best reason I have right now for not buying a Mac is that I don't need a new computer 
Second best is I don't want to rebuy apps I already use.
Third..... is I'm cheap and Macs cost more.
Fourth.....if I did get a virus, I'd like knowing what to do with it ....
Five..... it bugs the hell out of Ted


----------



## loserOlimbs

tedwinder said:


> Right. Each side has to give 5 reasons why their side is better that the other.
> 
> 1. Best design ever
> 2. Easy to use interface (OS X 10.4.7)
> 3. More powerful, therefore more capable programs
> 4. NO VIRUSES!
> 5. Very simple to use


1 is an opinion.
2 is an opinion
3. PCs can have all the power a Mac does, and it can be customised more for each persons use
4 Mac has 1 big virus, sure Windows has more, but as more people switch to Mac, more and more viruses will come out. Then all those who people with no firewalls and Malware detectors are in real trouble
5. Mac GUI to me is counter-productive and bugs the crazp out of me. Especially that spinning dock thing at the bottom.


----------



## jp1203

Just put a bunch more RAM in my mac. (544) It makes a good server. Ubuntu is much nicer than OS9 IMO.


----------



## tedwinder

Opinions count.


----------



## VegasACF

Dear God, 

I've been good. I've done what You asked. I've gone to church every Sunday. I've converted the heathens. I've used Your OS since 1984. And, while I know my work is not yet done here, I have but one little tiny request... 

Please... Make it stop. 

Please?


----------



## Yankee Rose

:up:


----------



## Stoner

I would like to point out that it was a Mac supporter that posted this poll, first amoung the 'disbelievers' in Random.
It's merely come home to roost  .....


----------



## Gibble

tedwinder said:


> 1. Best design ever


I presume you're referring to the OS? If so, what PC OS are you comparing it too? WinXP? 
Or the hardware? Because, if it's the hardware, why is Apple moving it's Mac line to Intel?
Or the case? Because, personally, I find Mac PCs have a horrible design.



tedwinder said:


> 2. Easy to use interface (OS X 10.4.7)


Windows interface is easy to use, so is KDE/Gnome (*nix), so, this would be a wash, and simply personaly preference.



tedwinder said:


> 3. More powerful, therefore more capable programs


Umm...this is simply false.



tedwinder said:


> 4. NO VIRUSES!


...not quite.



tedwinder said:


> 5. Very simple to use


I find Windows very simple to use...as well as the various flavours of linux. In fact, some flavours of linux are easier to install and use than Windows!


----------



## SolidSnake85

Macs because PC's get viruses. Macs DO NOT! In fact, they never got a virus at all!


----------



## tedwinder

By number 1 I was referring to the design. Which looks better? PC or Mac?

And don't give me all that rubbish about the PC being a Dell, becuase all 'non-macs' have that ugly box. And Microsoft don't even make computers! Apple do!


----------



## Stoner

> all 'non-macs' have that ugly box


Ted? do you watch your monitor .....or the 'box'.......??..........


----------



## tedwinder

Huh?


----------



## Gibble

tedwinder said:


> By number 1 I was referring to the design. Which looks better? PC or Mac?
> 
> And don't give me all that rubbish about the PC being a Dell, becuase all 'non-macs' have that ugly box. And Microsoft don't even make computers! Apple do!


Try again...
http://www.xoxide.com/allcases.html

We have all the variety in the world when it comes to cases...


----------



## tedwinder

Nice, but they don't come standard.


----------



## Gibble

tedwinder said:


> Nice, but they don't come standard.


*pfft* ignorance.

It all depends where you buy from?

http://www.alienware.com/
http://www.viciouspc.com/
http://www.tigerdirect.com/

Shall I continue?


----------



## VegasACF

Gibble said:


> Because, if it's the hardware, why is Apple moving it's Mac line to Intel?


Why is this such an apparently mystifying question? It was a business decision, and nothing more. Apple wanted smaller, faster processors, and Motorola was incapable of providing smaller, faster processors in a timely fashion.

It's the same reason Apple switched from the 68k series to the first PPC series to the G3, G4, G5 PPC series. The _only_ difference between those changes and the most recent change is that Motorola was the manufacturer of the old and the new in those cases, whereas Intel is the manufacturer of the new CPUs.

Such is business. You go with the company who can give you what you want for the price you want at the time you want. Nothing more, nothing less.

And, dude, you _really_ need to stop throwing around incendiary words like "ignorance" and "stupid". You're not endearing yourself to anyone _but_ yourself with such language. You catch more flies with honey than with vinegar.


----------



## Stoner

Why start discussing reason at this late date .......... .......


----------



## AlexTs

All computers suck.


----------



## tedwinder

AlexTs said:


> All computers suck.


----------



## tedwinder

Gibble said:


> It all depends where you buy from?
> 
> http://www.alienware.com/
> http://www.viciouspc.com/
> http://www.tigerdirect.com/
> 
> Shall I continue?


True, but I'm talking about standard sellers, such as Apple, Dell and Microsoft.


----------



## tedwinder

Wow...........


----------



## Gibble

tedwinder said:


> True, but I'm talking about standard sellers, such as Apple, Dell and Microsoft.


Uh...Microsoft doesn't sell computers.

Dell, only sells computers they have branded with their name, they don't make anything, they are absolutely NO different than alienware, or vicouspc, etc...except that you recognize their name.


----------



## Gibble

VegasACF said:


> Why is this such an apparently mystifying question? It was a business decision, and nothing more. Apple wanted smaller, faster processors, and Motorola was incapable of providing smaller, faster processors in a timely fashion.
> 
> It's the same reason Apple switched from the 68k series to the first PPC series to the G3, G4, G5 PPC series. The _only_ difference between those changes and the most recent change is that Motorola was the manufacturer of the old and the new in those cases, whereas Intel is the manufacturer of the new CPUs.
> 
> Such is business. You go with the company who can give you what you want for the price you want at the time you want. Nothing more, nothing less.


Yes...I realize all of that. It's not a "mystifying question", it was rhetorical.

My point was, the thread title is Mac or PC. We can't argue the hardware, because they are THE SAME...and since "PC" isn't an Operating System...what the heck is the poll about?


----------



## Nick8539

OMG IS THIS STILL GOING ON


----------



## tedwinder

Yup, I won't rest until Mac overtakes PC. And Mac - PC covers the standard OS (Mac OS X [not OS9!] and Windows)

And I know that Microsoft don't make computers (they can't be bothered), but you can buy from them.


----------



## Gibble

tedwinder said:


> Yup, I won't rest until Mac overtakes PC. And Mac - PC covers the standard OS (Mac OS X [not OS9!] and Windows)
> 
> And I know that Microsoft don't make computers (they can't be bothered), but you can buy from them.


So the Poll is really, Mac OS X vs Win XP?


----------



## tedwinder

It covers the design, ease of use (buttons, ports etc), Operating System, applications/programs, and stuff like that.


----------



## tedwinder

I have a little trick up my sleeve...............


----------



## Guest

PLEASE YOU mACKER... 


for freakin sake CLOSE this thread... 


i mean realy....


----------



## tedwinder

Nope, not until Mac wins!


----------



## Gibble

tedwinder said:


> Nope, not until Mac wins!


Never going to happen.


----------



## tedwinder

You just wait........I've asked someone to do something for me.............


----------



## Nick8539

lol...ooooh im intrigued!


----------



## tedwinder

An adminstrator of this forum.........


----------



## Guest

> An adminstrator of this forum.........


yeah RIGHT!! 

what are you gonna do?.....cheat your way into winning??? 

did you by any chance tell this administrator....that when mAC is one vote in lead...close the thread...right????

if you do that then you are truly a loser....


----------



## tedwinder

Nope, but you'll soon find out. And if you don't beleive me, ask Cookiegal.


----------



## Stoner

In other words, you don't want computer users voting .........


----------



## tedwinder

No, Not at all! Of course I want computer user voing!


----------



## Stoner

Ted, this poll is already 'burried' in the Mac forum and the voting still favors PCs.
How can you get more Mac votes with out either restricting voting ( basically that's already being done) or inviting new members from some other Mac forum?


----------



## tedwinder

Noy every Mac user has voted on this though, have they? Thres more than 20! If my plan works, it will show an honest opinion from everyone.


----------



## Gibble

So...you're going to do the same for all the PC users?


----------



## tedwinder

Maybe...........


----------



## Stoner

Stoner said:


> Ted, this poll is already 'burried' in the Mac forum and the voting still favors PCs.
> How can you get more Mac votes with out either restricting voting ( basically that's already being done) or inviting new members from some other Mac forum?





tedwinder said:


> Noy every Mac user has voted on this though, have they? Thres more than 20! If my plan works, it will show an honest opinion from everyone.





Gibble said:


> So...you're going to do the same for all the PC users?





tedwinder said:


> Maybe...........


Ted....thousands of Windows users post at TSG.
How can 20 more Mac votes make much of a difference unless you keep this poll hidden in the Mac forum _


----------



## jp1203

Mac will never win. You don't give up, do you?

Yeah, I own a Mac, so do a lot of people. Most people are PC users though, thus more people will vote PC. Even if you get the other Mac users to vote (and I doubt there are many) at this point there are 33 votes for PC so I don't think it would pass by. If your plan was to close the thread after Mac wins, that would be unfair. It would be like closing a presedential election when one side finally gets ahead, before all of the votes are counted. In reality, 99% of the people on the forums will never vote.


----------



## tedwinder

I'm not going to close the thread - I just want to see..........


----------



## Stoner

Ted......you got ants.....I'd close the thread ......


----------



## VegasACF




----------



## jp1203

You know, I just happened to notice that the Vista thread has almost half the posts that Mac does, and it's new!


----------



## VegasACF




----------



## cpchase

Mac is a teribble machine once you buy it, your done. No fun, no custome anything. and then it crashes... and dont spoon feed me that BLUE SCREEN 8ull****. I've used a Macintrash they are one of the most tempermental systems I've used. PC is the only way to go.

TO HELL WITH MACINTRASH

PS, Mac is great for downloads, because you might as well forget about it, theres no such thing as a download for a mac!


----------



## VegasACF

cpchase said:


> Mac is a teribble machine once you buy it, your done. No fun, no custome anything. and then it crashes... and dont spoon feed me that BLUE SCREEN 8ull****. I've used a Macintrash they are one of the most tempermental systems I've used. PC is the only way to go.
> 
> TO HELL WITH MACINTRASH
> 
> PS, Mac is great for downloads, because you might as well forget about it, theres no such thing as a download for a mac!


----------



## cpchase

Dont hate me because I'm right.


----------



## Pensacola Tiger

Get back under your bridge, right now!


----------



## VegasACF

cpchase said:


> Dont hate me because I'm right.












I don't hate you in the slightest. I pity you.


----------



## cpchase

Oh, how mature... a flame war, are you 7 ? Logging onto your moms AOL.


----------



## cpchase

VegasACF said:


> I don't hate you in the slightest. I pity you.


I g2g for a bit but i see how this is gunna go so...


----------



## tedwinder

Stoner said:


> Ted......you got ants.....I'd close the thread ......


The ants have gone! And thats an entirely different thread! cpchase, why do you say that Mac is bad?


----------



## cpchase

I would like to state that the OSX UI makes my drool, but the mac is lacking in alot of areas...

1. No Games (No big though I dont really play comp games anyway)
2. Apple often lies about benchmarks and speed
3. Price, who cares if Billy G is $$, buying an apple comp would pay for a PC and software twice.
4. UNIX is not user friendly, in fact very far from it
5. Software.... *crickets*
6. Mouse with 1 button, come on !

For all kinds of reasons goto http://www.mac-sucks.com/


----------



## cpchase

http://www.amazingben.com/arc0062.html


----------



## cpchase

Similar ?


----------



## tedwinder

Revenge.


----------



## cpchase

hehe, nice ive never herd of that site.

Best Use of a Mac Ever !


----------



## tedwinder

couldn't do that with a pc could you?


----------



## Stoner

Joke time 

Two Mac guys are talking over lunch. The first guy says "You wouldn't believe what happened this morning. A girl rode up to me on her bike, took off all her clothes, and said 'Take whatever you want!' ... So I took the bike"
The second Mac guy says "Good choice, her clothes probably wouldn't have fit you."



LOL!


----------



## VegasACF

cpchase said:


> I would like to state that the OSX UI makes my drool, but the mac is lacking in alot of areas...


Areas about which you are uninformed, it seems.



cpchase said:


> 1. No Games (No big though I dont really play comp games anyway)


Ahem. Ahem. Ahem.



cpchase said:


> 2. Apple often lies about benchmarks and speed


The Federal Trade Commission mandates that advertising must be truthful and non-deceptive advertisers must have evidence to back up their claims and advertisements cannot be unfair.

Perhaps if you actually have some _evidence_ of these "lies" you should contact the FTC and get the legal ball rolling.



cpchase said:


> 3. Price, who cares if Billy G is $$, buying an apple comp would pay for a PC and software twice.


Ahem.



cpchase said:


> 4. UNIX is not user friendly, in fact very far from it


And DOS is?



cpchase said:


> 5. Software.... *crickets*


This one's just too ridiculous to even entertain with a response.



cpchase said:


> 6. Mouse with 1 button, come on !


Ahem. Apple's mouse no longer has one button. It has _no_ buttons.

But, just for the record, I've been using multi-button trackballs with my Macs since the early 1990s, not long after you were born.



cpchase said:


> For all kinds of reasons goto http://www.mac-sucks.com/


I don't need someone _else_ to tell me why not to like (or to like) something. And a web site that is so pitifully out-of-date is hardly a good source to cite, in any case.


----------



## Gibble

Yeah...well my dad could beat up your dad!


----------



## VegasACF

Gibble said:


> Yeah...well my dad could beat up your dad!


Yeah, that was mildly humorous back on July 13th, when JEBWrench first said it.


----------



## Gibble

And your point is?


----------



## VegasACF

That your attempt at bon mot is as hackneyed as the above "reasons" for not using a Mac.


----------



## Omega_Shadow

Really glad I got VegasACF on ignore. If his recent posts are as moronic as his other ones I aint missing much.

I would leave him be Gibble. Let him spout his hate and half baked facts. People like us have better things to waste our time on


----------



## tedwinder

Go Vegas, Go Vegas!


----------



## VegasACF




----------



## tedwinder

What the......


----------



## tedwinder

Where do you get those pictures from??????!!!!!!!!


----------



## VegasACF




----------



## tedwinder

And so.....the pictures......?


----------



## VegasACF

Seek and ye shall find.

(They've been culled from various sources over the past many years, and are stored in multiple places--I recommend creating your own archive of such images and starting a Photobucket account for easy access)


----------



## tedwinder

OK, thanks!


----------



## tedwinder

Can't find any! Can't you 'share' your photobucket pics with me?


----------



## Stoner

Ted......make your own. It's not hard, really......more imagination than anything 
Consider the subject you are thinking of, google up images and alter them to suit yourself.
There have been several threads in the debate forum where the topic was the humor of altered political events and politicians. Good fun


----------



## tedwinder

Ok.


----------



## VegasACF

Or find images you like, right click, save as, go to Photobucket, upload the images. It even provides handy IMG tags for UBB.


----------



## tedwinder

done that for some, but is there a way of sharing yours with my photobucket account?


----------



## VegasACF

So you want me to give you easy access to things that I have taken a very long time to glean from various places across the Internet? How very communist of you.

I don't wish to give out my Photobucket password, sorry. I've got more than just funny photos in there (family albums, etc.). Just grab 'em as I use 'em. I'm sure there'll be plenty more such occasions.


----------



## tedwinder

No, I didn't want you to give me your password......I thought there was a way to share them! OK, I understand.


----------



## tedwinder

Hard to use mouse?


----------



## Stoner

umm? Ted......that mouse is rather expensive.
LINK

$69


----------



## Chicon

Stoner said:


> umm? Ted......that mouse is rather expensive.
> LINK
> 
> $69


Yup ! And it looks like a soap.

Hi Stoner !


----------



## Gibble

tedwinder said:


> Hard to use mouse?


Oh boy, more overpriced junk!


----------



## Stoner

Hi Joe 

Soap?.......well....yeah, it does lol!


----------



## tedwinder

Stoner said:


> umm? Ted......that mouse is rather expensive.


So is this.

And this.


And this.

And this.

The list goes on. And look......most of them are made by Microsoft!


----------



## Gibble

If you're going to buy a quality mouse for a PC, you're going to buy a good logitech one. They are ergonomic, and feature rich.


----------



## tedwinder

What has a Logitech mouse got that the Mighty Mouse hasn't?


----------



## Gibble

tedwinder said:


> What has a Logitech mouse got that the Mighty Mouse hasn't?


Style http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0000CEPDF/104-2979019-4319153?v=glance&n=172282

And if it's quality is anything like a normal logitech mouse, insanse durability. My logitech optical cordless I have at home has been thrown against the wall so many times I honestly don't know how it hasn't blown apart yet...but it doesn't even have a scratch...my wall on the other hand has a few marks


----------



## tedwinder

Call that stylish? Pffffp!:down:


----------



## Gibble

tedwinder said:


> Call that stylish? Pffffp!:down:


If I want an uncomfortable, mouse, that, while having features, doesn't have a functionally efficient mouse, then I'll buy the Mighty Mouse. But, I want a mouse with those same features, that fits in my hand comfortably, and has the buttons and other controlles layed out in a pattern that suits usage while holding the mouse. *I don't want to contort my hand to fit the mouse!!!*


----------



## tedwinder

Gibble said:


> My logitech optical cordless I have at home has been thrown against the wall so many times I honestly don't know how it hasn't blown apart yet...but it doesn't even have a scratch...my wall on the other hand has a few marks


May I ask why?


----------



## Gibble

tedwinder said:


> May I ask why?


When you're playing a game online and you're internet connection starts to go wonky...or...on occasion, the batteries in your mouse go dead...and you end up dieing in the game because of it.

I use to just slam my fist on my desk to vent the anger...but my desk is glass now...so I had to resort to throwing the mouse.


----------



## tedwinder

Gibble said:


> When you're playing a game online and you're internet connection starts to go wonky...


Ha! Wouldn't do that on a Mac!


----------



## Stoner

Logitech......well as Gibble pointed out, durability, but also price.
I have a 3 year old optical Logitech 2 button + wheel( not wireless) that I bought for $13.
Does everything I need and fits my hand perfectly.

$69 for any mouse is too much, IMHO.


----------



## Gibble

tedwinder said:


> Ha! Wouldn't do that on a Mac!


...yes it would...


----------



## tedwinder

And how would you know......


----------



## Gibble

tedwinder said:


> And how would you know......


Because I'm a Computer Programmer (mainly Internet Development) I also wired Networks for a year. The speed and/or reliability of your internet connection has virtually nothing to do with the computer you have connected to it, it's dependent on the bandwidth your ISP provides, the amount other people sharing your connection are using (normally my problem) and the amount of traffic on the packet's route between your computer and it's destination.


----------



## tedwinder

*snore*


----------



## Gibble

You asked.


----------



## VegasACF

Gibble said:


> Because I'm a Computer Programmer (mainly Internet Development) I also wired Networks for a year. The speed and/or reliability of your internet connection has virtually nothing to do with the computer you have connected to it, it's dependent on the bandwidth your ISP provides, the amount other people sharing your connection are using (normally my problem) and the amount of traffic on the packet's route between your computer and it's destination.


Indeed.

As for the mouse thing, I've used Kensington and Logitech products for over a decade, and have thoroughly enjoyed each and every one of them. I'm currently using a Logitech Mouseman Wheel with my MacBook Pro (I don't much like trackpads--though the one on this machine is nice as far as they go [the two-finger scrolling business is quite cool]), and a Kensington Expert Mouse Wireless in the studio.


----------



## jp1203

WOW...I was gone for a few weeks waiting for my IBM to come in (Only one with Internet Access) and this is STILL GOING ON!


----------



## kenneth2k1

You're right. You wouldn't have a problem playing your game on the Internet with a Mac...

...because the game doesn't play on a Mac. Nor do a lot of cool games for that matter.


----------



## VegasACF

kenneth2k1 said:


> You're right. You wouldn't have a problem playing your game on the Internet with a Mac...
> 
> ...because the game doesn't play on a Mac. Nor do a lot of cool games for that matter.


Sheesh.

Acquaint yourself with reality before bothering to post.


----------



## kenneth2k1

I'm perfectly aware of bootcamp. But not everyone has Tiger. Plus, will the games run on MacOS? No.

Sheesh. 

Acquaint yourself with manners before you post.


----------



## VegasACF

kenneth2k1 said:


> I'm perfectly aware of bootcamp. But not everyone has Tiger.


Not everyone has Windows 95, Windows 98, Windows XP. What does that have to do with your former remarks?



kenneth2k1 said:


> Plus, will the games run on MacOS? No.


That's not what you said. You said:



kenneth2k1 said:


> ...because the game doesn't *play on a Mac*. Nor do a lot of cool games for that matter.


(emphasis added)

Those games _will_ play on *a* Mac. Not _every_ Mac. But nor will they play on _every_ Intel/AMD-based computer.



kenneth2k1 said:


> Sheesh.
> 
> Acquaint yourself with manners before you post.


I most humbly apologize if you took umbrage at my former comments. However statements similar to yours have been made repeatedly throughout this thread, and have been answered repeatedly, as well. It starts getting more than a bit old seeing the same (incorrect) information posted ad nauseam.


----------



## kenneth2k1

Apology accepted, however conditional it might have been. Your point is understood.


----------



## tedwinder

kenneth2k1 said:


> Plus, will the games run on MacOS? No.


I think you need to see post 346.


----------



## kenneth2k1

tedwinder said:


> I think you need to see post 346.


LOL. Bejeweled, Plantasia, and Fish Tycoon is not really what I had in mind. But we've resolved our differences already.


----------



## MSM Hobbes

AlexTs said:


> For some reason it's "ignorant" for people to say "Windows 3.1 was awful, I'm never going to use Windows," but not for them to have used a pre-unix OS X and still write it off.


:up:


----------



## Damonc

I use both. 
On my desk at work, I have a pentium 4 (XP Pro), & an eMac (OSX Tiger)..

I dont really have a preference to either machine, sure I have a PC at home, but I bought it before I started in this current job.

When customers ask me what I believe is better, I tell them that depends on what you want to use it for. Both machines have major advantages and disadvantages but I do believe that apple have way better quality hardware that what you'll find in most PC's.


----------



## kylake

Damonw said:


> I use both.
> Both machines have major advantages and disadvantages but I do believe that apple have way better quality hardware that what you'll find in most PC's.


Okay, I will bite.

I agree that there are advantages and disadvantages to both.

But on the topic of hardware?

I have owned 4 PC and 1 mac

The mac has frozen more than any pc from win95 to win98se to xp to xp pro. Actually the mac has frozen more than all the pc's combined. I have been on message boards for mac and I have tried everything.....mem test, format and reload, new OS, more memory, another mem test, new HD none of it has worked and they (mac fans) are all in denial that this could even happen to a mac. It may be just this machine but if you frequent a mac dedicated board they do have there share of problems. But if you confront one of them in person it is the best machine ever made......I know I have a family of users.

I have a sawtooth G-3 128 graphics card and a superdrive.......

That brings up another issue I have with mac.........what superdrive do I have? Mac calls everything "new" a superdrive........why not just call it what *it is* an omega zip drive (that is what is in the sawtooth), a cd burner drive, a dvd burner drive.......why do they call them all superdrives? Really they make the term confusing.........you can now right click.....took them a long time to do that.

Like many others have mentioned you can customize/upgrade hardware much easier and cheaper. Sound card for pc $15.......sound card with same specs for mac $100 dollars if you search alot. And in those new sleek stars wars machines........try to install it....LOL

Software and drivers are much more plentiful for a pc. For instance...I have an old palm pilot.....serial connection. To be able to connect it to my newer pc I bought a belkin serial/usb adapter. No problem for the pc to get drivers....no drivers for the mac so it doesn't see the connection. This is the Apple companies fault for not releasing more info for people to create drivers for there product and this in turn hurts the user or should I say cost the user more if he has to shell out more money for the same product from Apple.

When this old apple bites the dust........it will be the last one I use...

And BTW, when windows comes out with a new version of WMA the have upgrades for free.......When apple comes out with a new version of iTunes they want money to upgrade...

All and All a pc does the same computing as mac.......but a mac will hit you alot harder in the pocketbook. :down:


----------



## kylake

kenneth2k1 said:


> I'm perfectly aware of bootcamp. But not everyone has Tiger. .


An everyone that has Tiger doesn't have the intel on board. Also a must have to run boot camp.


----------



## VegasACF

kylake said:


> Okay, I will bite.
> 
> I agree that there are advantages and disadvantages to both.
> 
> But on the topic of hardware?
> 
> I have owned 4 PC and 1 mac
> 
> The mac has frozen more than any pc from win95 to win98se to xp to xp pro. Actually the mac has frozen more than all the pc's combined. I have been on message boards for mac and I have tried everything.....mem test, format and reload, new OS, more memory, another mem test, new HD none of it has worked and they (mac fans) are all in denial that this could even happen to a mac. It may be just this machine but if you frequent a mac dedicated board they do have there share of problems. But if you confront one of them in person it is the best machine ever made......I know I have a family of users.


Sounds like you got a lemon.



kylake said:


> I have a sawtooth G-3 128 graphics card and a superdrive.......
> 
> That brings up another issue I have with mac.........what superdrive do I have? Mac calls everything "new" a superdrive........why not just call it what *it is* an omega zip drive (that is what is in the sawtooth), a cd burner drive, a dvd burner drive.......why do they call them all superdrives? Really they make the term confusing.........


Imation made a USB floppy-compatible drive that also takes disks called, you guessed it, a SuperDrive. Seems it's not just an Apple phenomenon.



kylake said:


> you can now right click.....took them a long time to do that.


I've been "right-clicking" on my Macs for a really long time. Perhaps you're simply referring to the new Apple Mighty Mouse? The ability has been there, you just had to supply a mouse (or, in my case a trackball) with multiple buttons. No big deal, really. I've never been partial to any of the OEM mice that shipped with any of my computers on either platform.



kylake said:


> Like many others have mentioned you can customize/upgrade hardware much easier and cheaper. Sound card for pc $15.......sound card with same specs for mac $100 dollars if you search alot. And in those new sleek stars wars machines........try to install it....LOL


Yes. This is true. And for people who want to tinker under the hood of their computer an iMac is probably not the best choice. It's not unlike the difference between people who buy Honda Civics or Dodge Neons and modify the hell out of them, as compared to people who buy a Mercedes S600 or BMW 7-series and leave them the way they were intended to be.



kylake said:


> Software and drivers are much more plentiful for a pc.


True, true. But that's got an up side _and_ a down side. It's much harder to separate the wheat from the chaff on the Windows side of the aisle.



kylake said:


> For instance...I have an old palm pilot.....serial connection. To be able to connect it to my newer pc I bought a belkin serial/usb adapter. No problem for the pc to get drivers....no drivers for the mac so it doesn't see the connection.


Intereting. My old Handspring Palm OS PDA with its serial connection/USB adaptor works like a charm with my Macs. The iSync application saw it immediately and took care of everything for me. No driver needed.



kylake said:


> This is the Apple companies fault for not releasing more info for people to create drivers for there product and this in turn hurts the user or should I say cost the user more if he has to shell out more money for the same product from Apple.


Again, no driver was needed. It just worked. Again, sounds like you have a computer with very bad problems.



kylake said:


> When this old apple bites the dust........it will be the last one I use...


Sorry to hear that.



kylake said:


> And BTW, when windows comes out with a new version of WMA the have upgrades for free.......When apple comes out with a new version of iTunes they want money to upgrade...


This is simply _not true_. See this page. Note the graphic in the middle that very clearly says "Free Download for Mac and Windows".

Opinions are fine and dandy, but when misinformation is being spread as though it were truth there is a problem.



kylake said:


> All and All a pc does the same computing as mac.......but a mac will hit you alot harder in the pocketbook. :down:


You're entitled to your opinion.


----------



## kylake

VegasACF said:


> Sounds like you got a lemon.
> This is simply _not true_. See this page. Note the graphic in the middle that very clearly says "Free Download for Mac and Windows".
> 
> Opinions are fine and dandy, but when misinformation is being spread as though it were truth there is a problem.


I stand corrected about iTunes and did not mean to spread false information. What about iPhoto? Will apple let you get the latest version free or is the newest version sold in iLife?


----------



## VegasACF

Like _most_ commercially-available software, major revisions of iPhoto, iMovie, iDVD and GarageBand are not free. These are not free from the start, unlike iTunes, though they _do_ come bundled with all new Apple computers as part of whatever iteration of iLife is available at that time.


----------



## Yankee Rose

kylake said:


> Software and drivers are much more plentiful for a pc. For instance...I have an old palm pilot.....serial connection. To be able to connect it to my newer pc I bought a belkin serial/usb adapter. No problem for the pc to get drivers....no drivers for the mac so it doesn't see the connection.


http://catalog.belkin.com/IWCatProductPage.process?Product_Id=91042

Works beautifully with my old Palm M100 and OS X.


----------



## kylake

Thanks for the heads up on new drivers from Belkin. The last time I spoke with them on the phone they said they didn't have drivers . Evedently they now do. I will download the drivers you have suggested for OSX :up: and install and when I get my old 105m back from the factory I will give it a try and report back.

Thanks


----------



## kylake

Yankee Rose said:


> http://catalog.belkin.com/IWCatProductPage.process?Product_Id=91042
> 
> Works beautifully with my old Palm M100 and OS X.


In visiting the page I am a bit confused. I see drivers for mac 8.x and mac 9.x but none for OSX. Which one did you install that works beautifully with OSX. Belkin on the phone told me the 9.x should not be used with OSX but if it works for you I will give it a try.


----------



## Yankee Rose

You know .... I totally apologize and am quite embarrassed. 

My Mac has OS X and Classic running .... and this Belkin adapter works with my Classic software. I am so used to it that I assumed it was OS X. So sorry.  

It DOES work perfectly with Classic. I'm surprised Belkin would say to not run Classic and OS X at the same time. They obviously aren't familiar enough with Macs to know it is fine to run Classic and OS X together.

On a different note -- I love my Palm M100. It's old, but it does what I want. I have a sweet faceplate for it, too, and that's one of the reasons I'm keeping it. 

Again .... my apologies for misinformation.


----------



## kylake

Yankee, because of the issues I have had with this old machine I am running OSX natively on a new HD with 1gig Ram (it still freezes)........*no classic in the background*. Since no classic I guess that is why they didn't suggest running a driver for another OS (9.x).


----------



## tedwinder

Why use Classic when you can use the much better OS X?


----------



## loserOlimbs

tedwinder said:


> Why use Classic when you can use the much better OS X?


Why use either when you can use Windose? Or Unix, or even a cereal box!?


----------



## tedwinder

OS X is UNIX based, unlike Windows.


----------



## tedwinder

Mac has won!


----------



## Gibble

tedwinder said:


> Mac has won!


It's behind 46-26...I think not.


----------



## tedwinder

Well, PC may be leading in the poll, but Mac is winning in the argument.


----------



## Stoner

tedwinder said:


> Well, PC may be leading in the poll, but Mac is winning in the argument.


from your first post, Ted:


> What I want to know is, do you use (or want to use) a Mac or a PC and why!


You've been given many reasons why Window's users remain so and why Mac users remain so. And so far, in a poll hidden from most Windows users, the results still go aginst your 'wishes'.
The argument is.....you haven't convinced anyone to change ..........

But it's been fun watching you try


----------



## tedwinder

Mac will win! You just wait.......


----------



## VegasACF

Seriously, it's an online poll. It proves nothing, regardless of which option comes out on top. It's hardly a scientific sampling of the population. 

Again, please, God, make it stop.


----------



## tedwinder

God supports Mac!


----------



## VegasACF

Egad. 

Can't someone with the power to do so finally, once and for all, close down this thread? It's a blight on either platform.


----------



## Gibble

tedwinder said:


> God supports Mac!


God doesn't exist.


----------



## Stoner

VegasACF said:


> Egad.
> 
> Can't someone with the power to do so finally, once and for all, close down this thread? It's a blight on either platform.


Agreed!

So Vegas, you a Ford or Chevy man, or go for the imports 

( I didn't want to waste the broadband just to confirm I agreed  )


----------



## jp1203

Stoner said:


> Agreed!
> 
> So Vegas, you a Ford or Chevy man, or go for the imports
> 
> ( I didn't want to waste the broadband just to confirm I agreed  )


Imagine if someone started a thread about that! I bet it'd go on forever.


----------



## VegasACF

I own a 2004 Ford Explorer and a 2002 Nissan Altima. I previously have owned a Honda ('89 Prelude... oh, how I loved that car), a '98 Ford Mustang, a '96 Toyota Camry, an Oldsmobile Ninety-Eight (I forget what year they launched that particular land yacht), and a 1979 Cadillac Seville that looked almost _exactly_ like this (the color's a bit off--mine was a limited edition color that was slightly less brown than that). That sucker flat-out hauled ***. Freakin' huge engine in a (reasonably) small car. Lost my virginity in the back seat of it, too. Sadly it was totalled by a truck that ran a red light and hit the back quarter panel, spinning me around several times before we came to a stop perched atop a fire hydrant.


----------



## tedwinder

88 posts to go.......


----------



## Stoner

Sounds like you're going to close the thread at the 500 mark.

Are you going to gather a group of Mac fanatics and have them vote en masse just before you close the thread?


----------



## remaja

correct me If I'm wrong, But I think the votes should be MAC vs Windows or Apple Vs PC. Since Mac is an OS.


----------



## Stoner

remaja said:


> correct me If I'm wrong, But I think the votes should be MAC vs Windows or Apple Vs PC. Since Mac is an OS.


That's been brought up before 

Personally I think Ted should just request a thread lock.
End the pain, Ted


----------



## jp1203

When this thread came out, I figured it'd hit 2 or 3 pages, then PC would win and it'd all be over. Now we're at 427 posts!!!


----------



## Omega_Shadow

remaja said:


> correct me If I'm wrong, But I think the votes should be MAC vs Windows or Apple Vs PC. Since Mac is an OS.


its been brought up many times and just ignored by the mac users. Sometimes I think they cant tell the difference between the hardware and the OS.


----------



## Andraxion

I stay with PC as PCs are more universal and you can pick up upgrade parts practically anywhere that sells computer parts. Plus the fact of software compatibility. Although I do play games that can be played on either computer (WoW), I just don't buy the fact that I have to stick with non DirectX based games =P


----------



## SouthParkXP101

down with the mac


----------



## Couriant

Everyone know Mac is a Mac and PC is Windows.

To me, everyone saying down with the Mac has either never used a Mac or not used a Mac long enough to know that its just as better.

PCs have gone from being an office tool to an entertainment machine, whether if it's games or music or video. For me I would have a PC for entertainment and a Mac for everything else. More secure than Windows; Macs are, to me, easier to use, and they rarely crash.


----------



## Gibble

Tidus4Yuna said:


> Everyone know Mac is a Mac and PC is Windows.


Wrong. PC is Windows, Linux, BSD, or one of several other operating systems.



Tidus4Yuna said:


> To me, everyone saying down with the Mac has either never used a Mac or not used a Mac long enough to know that its just as better.


I don't recall saying "down with the Mac" but I still feel PC hardware is superior.



Tidus4Yuna said:


> PCs have gone from being an office tool to an entertainment machine, whether if it's games or music or video. For me I would have a PC for entertainment and a Mac for everything else. More secure than Windows; Macs are, to me, easier to use, and they rarely crash.


Windows machines 'can' be secure. And Mac's aren't flawless when it comes to security like so many like to try and trumpet.


----------



## Couriant

Gibble said:


> Wrong. PC is Windows, Linux, BSD, or one of several other operating systems.


To me and you yes, but to Average Joe... 



Gibble said:


> I don't recall saying "down with the Mac" but I still feel PC hardware is superior.


It was from the post above that one. Most people I know say the same thing... not necessary from here 



Gibble said:


> Windows machines 'can' be secure. And Mac's aren't flawless when it comes to security like so many like to try and trumpet.


Windows 'should' be secure when it's released. FWIK Mac hasn't had many attacks compared to Windows. Maybe because it's UNIX based, I don't know, but in my experience I have had no problems with security leaks etc.

Remember, that is based on MY experience, no one else's


----------



## jp1203

Tidus4Yuna said:


> Everyone know Mac is a Mac and PC is Windows.


There are also many Linux Distros for Mac. People seem to forget that. My server is a Powermac G3 Blue and White with Ubuntu 5.10 on it. (In CPU specs)


----------



## jp1203

Tidus4Yuna said:


> To me, everyone saying down with the Mac has either never used a Mac or not used a Mac long enough to know that its just as better.


I don't recall saying that either, but I have tolerated a mac with OS 9 for about a month before I threw Linux on it. I kept the other drive with OS9 installed because it also had Photoshop 6 and FinalCut Pro on it.

I don't like the Mac UI (Even OSX) I think it's terribly annoying!

Also, IMO Mac concentrates too much on looks for their machines. Who cares how it looks. We care about how it works.


----------



## jp1203

There's my server...


----------



## tedwinder

Some references to Vista at this years WWDC.......


----------



## Stoner

Looks like a malicious site to me 
It even tried to trick me into turning on javascript...................


----------



## Gibble

Tidus4Yuna said:


> Windows 'should' be secure when it's released. FWIK Mac hasn't had many attacks compared to Windows. Maybe because it's UNIX based, I don't know, but in my experience I have had no problems with security leaks etc.


If you don't use IE...windows is fairly secure...I don't do anything special to make my windows machine secure other than that. No AV software, no Anti-Spyware software, I just don't use IE, nor open attachments I don't trust. Simple.


----------



## Couriant

Gibble said:


> If you don't use IE...windows is fairly secure...I don't do anything special to make my windows machine secure other than that. No AV software, no Anti-Spyware software, I just don't use IE, nor open attachments I don't trust. Simple.


True, but how many people are not as clued up as you and I?


----------



## loserOlimbs

Tidus4Yuna said:


> True, but how many people are not as clued up as you and I?


Hmmm, so people not being up to par makes an OS inferior?

Truth is Macs don't have the viruses because people don't feel like writing them.
If the current group of hackers went out and programmed a batch of OSX specific viruses the MAC community would be down over night, because very few of them use Firewalls, AV software and take attachments from people they don't know seriously.


----------



## VegasACF

loserOlimbs said:


> ...very few of them use Firewalls, AV software and take attachments from people they don't know seriously...


I assume you have some sort of scientific data available to back this claim?

Probably not. Since we're throwing around anecdotal evidence as "proof" of something...

_Everyone_ I know that uses Macs (a fairly large number, being a musician) _all_ have firewalls (most of them hardware firewalls, some just rely on OS X's built-in firewall). I don't know of _anyone_ who isn't careful with attachments. And I can think of only one person that doesn't use some sort of antivirus software--but his Mac houses a dedicated Pro Tools HD system and he does not have it connected to the outside world.

:shrug:


----------



## loserOlimbs

Well, I guess your buddies are better off then most of the Mac profesionals I've seen.

And I never hear it stressed in Mac rings, things like get a good firewall!

I don't even know what a good Mac firewall is? Does AVG make a MAC version of their software?

And in a million years I would use the OSes built in firewall.


----------



## Couriant

Most graphic designers use Macs too.


----------



## superhall

Macs all the way!


----------



## loserOlimbs

This girl I was seeing is a graphics designer, and she loves her Mac.

After being around me though, I taught her about PCs and M$ Windows and Linux, now she loves PC.

Her main reason for loving Macs was that was what they are taught on, and taught to love. But my Athlon 2500+ system crushed her Mac, and that was a while back now.

Needless to say, she now uses a PC running XP for her work and likes it better. Maybe its not better for all, but graphics designers are not technology experts.


----------



## loserOlimbs

and BTW, she loves Vista... what little she has seen of it and always wants to come use it at my place... haven't figured that one out myself.


----------



## tedwinder

All you PC losers need to see thisand this. Beats Vista any day.


----------



## Omega_Shadow

*sigh* Ted, give up. Those vids prove nothing but apples current sales pitch. Why would you even think that would persuade someone into thinking your way in a debate? It's like me saying windows is better then quoting the Microcraps website. It just doesn't help your argument. And not to give you the wrong idea, I H-A-T-E Vista and what they are about to do to. That's just one of the great many reasons why I use Linux on PC

And while we are on the subject and because you didn't read it the first 500 times it has been posted:
PC *DOES NOT* EQUAL MICROSOFT WINDOWS
PC & Mac are *HARDWARE*. Windows, Linux & OSX are *SOFTWARE *

If your going to say that PC users are losers, don't involve windows. If you want to say Windows users are losers, just outright say that. For the love of jebus stop equating microsofts crappy product to PC's.


----------



## Stoner

tedwinder said:


> All you PC losers need to see thisand this. Beats Vista any day.


No can do, Ted.
Each link requests javascript to be turned on and I don't with malicious sites 
Keeps the bad guys out 



BTW, your rant against Vista means little to me, I hadn't planned to use it anyway


----------



## superhall

Omega_Shadow said:


> PC *DOES NOT* EQUAL MICROSOFT WINDOWS
> PC & Mac are *HARDWARE*. Windows, Linux & OSX are *SOFTWARE *


It's a good point...however, if you want to get VERY technical...
Apples are technically hardware....and Mac is technically Software. Macintosh OS X is the operating system that runs on the Apple Computer. Thus, we're debating the PC Hardware and Mac Software....in some cases. Macs can also be consider as Hardware--(Macbook Pro, Mac Pro, iMac, etc)....thus you have Mac Software on an Apple Mac Hardware.

I think everybody knows what's actually being debated here: "my computer is better than yours." Let's keep it that way...without raising this soft/hardware point again. Unless somebody powerful wants to specify if talking about software instead of hardware actually matters, then it doesn't matter.


----------



## Omega_Shadow

superhall said:


> Unless somebody powerful wants to specify if talking about software instead of hardware actually matters, then it doesn't matter.


That is the single most moronic statement I have read recently, and that's saying something. Think before you type please.

The entire thread is a pissing contest, I agree. But when someone keeps falsely grouping together two completely different things, comparing software to hardware consistently, then it does matter.


----------



## Gibble

superhall said:


> It's a good point...however, if you want to get VERY technical...
> *Apples are technically hardware....and Mac is technically Software. Macintosh OS X is the operating system that runs on the Apple Computer*. Thus, we're debating the PC Hardware and Mac Software....in some cases. Macs can also be consider as Hardware--(Macbook Pro, Mac Pro, iMac, etc)....thus you have Mac Software on an Apple Mac Hardware.
> 
> I think everybody knows what's actually being debated here: "my computer is better than yours." Let's keep it that way...without raising this soft/hardware point again. Unless somebody powerful wants to specify if talking about software instead of hardware actually matters, then it doesn't matter.


"If you want to get VERY VERY technical..." Apple Computer, Inc is the company. Intel Corp. makes their CPU (a PC Architecture), and Mac (iMac, Mac Mini, Mac Pro, MacBook, MacBook Pro, etc) is the computer. MacOS X is the operating system.


----------



## redhat9

Well there will always be that bit of conflict between my iMac with the Intel Core Duo kicks that crap out of your AMD Athlon 64 FX-50, but really I think it is just personal preferance. I will admit that Macs have a very attractive white look on their desktop and older notebook models and the MacBook and MacBook Pro's do look damn nice compared to some x86/x64 notebooks. I am a PC user with about six years under my belt, being a teen myself and I must say that Windows, Linux, and the other x86 operating systems seem to be more versatile compared to Mac's. I have an iMac G3 tray loader myself and for example, to create a folder you usually go to File -> New Folder, I think anyways. As for Windows there are many ways to accomplish the same task. Right Click->New->Folder, File->New Folder, and many other ways to do other things through out the operaing system. You can open files of the operating system in a hex editor and customize your version of Windows down to the code. Mac's you can probably do the same or mabye easier since it is based off of Darwin linux. I like both but for the games, price, and being my faster system compared to the Mac, I like PC's. Mabye if I had new iMac wit the Intel Core Duo I would change my mind. But here is another question for the creater of this thread and poll. If a Mac can run both Mac OS X and Windows and being based off of an Intel processor. Is it a Mac or just not a PC running an x86 version of linux all painted up with the pretty Mac OS faces?


I'm a PC user, with older hardware, getting by with cheap upgrades and I like it! Show me a Mac that can do the same.


----------



## VegasACF

redhat9 said:


> I have an iMac G3 tray loader myself and for example, to create a folder you usually go to File -> New Folder, I think anyways. As for Windows there are many ways to accomplish the same task. Right Click->New->Folder, File->New Folder, and many other ways to do other things through out the operaing system.


Or just press Command-N in pre Mac OS X or Command-Shift-N in Mac OS X.



redhat9 said:


> You can open files of the operating system in a hex editor and customize your version of Windows down to the code. Mac's you can probably do the same or mabye easier since it is based off of Darwin linux.


You could do the same since the mid-80s on a Mac with a program called ResEdit. Like in Windows it was ill-advised to mess with the resource forks of applications and files unless you really knew what you were doing, but if you did, you certainly could.

Now you just open the Terminal application and make whatever changes you wish. Again, caveats apply. Know what you're doing before you start doing it.



redhat9 said:


> If a Mac can run both Mac OS X and Windows and being based off of an Intel processor. Is it a Mac or just not a PC running an x86 version of linux all painted up with the pretty Mac OS faces?


I'm not really sure what you're asking. My MacBook Pro runs Windows XP the same (visually and functionally) as any other Windows machine in my office, and much faster than the (admittedly) aging 2.X GHz Windows-only boxes that are supplied by the boss. This MacBook Pro also runs Mac OS X, running circles around the five other Macs that I have in my studio at home. That, to me, means versatility that is unmatched on the Windows side (at least with authorized, legal, stable, non-hacked Mac OS X installations--being in the legal profession, I don't much cotton to violations of intellectual property law).



redhat9 said:


> I'm a PC user, with older hardware, getting by with cheap upgrades and I like it! Show me a Mac that can do the same.


I've done countless upgrades on every desktop Mac I've ever had, from the basic installation of extra RAM, to new video cards (even buying Windows-only cards and flashing the ROMs for use on Macs), to upgrading to newer and faster processors, to installation of new I/O busses not available when the computer in question came out (USB 2.0 on a pre-USB 2.0 Mac, for example), to installation of different/additional media, to installation and integration of a Pro Tools TDM DAR system into my current desktop Mac. What more do you want to do? Replace a mother board? Done it. They're not easy to get, and they're only from Apple, but if you can lay your hands on one you can do it.

To each his own.


----------



## Couriant

In OS X, the keyboard shortcut for new folder is command, SHIFT and N


----------



## VegasACF

That's what I had at first, but it didn't seem right, so I changed it. It's changed back now. That's what I get for being booted into Windows!


----------



## tedwinder

Omega_Shadow said:


> And while we are on the subject and because you didn't read it the first 500 times it has been posted:
> PC *DOES NOT* EQUAL MICROSOFT WINDOWS
> PC & Mac are *HARDWARE*. Windows, Linux & OSX are *SOFTWARE *


Ok, ok, you WINDOWS losers!


----------



## Stoner

tedwinder said:


> Ok, ok, you WINDOWS losers!


Ted?.....Why does it bother you that some PC/Windows users aren't interested in Macs?
Personally, I don't care if you use an abacus or even your toes and fingers.... 

Obviously, your new Mac ( I'm assuming you own the latest and greatest by the way you brag on Macs) is going to provide a wider range of uses, more computing power than my 6 year old P3 800 Dell, but the machine only cost me $30 a year ago plus the software I have accumulated over time. It does all I need. It does it very well. Buying a new comp will not improve any productivity for me. 
I've thought about building a faster comp just as a hobby, but as I don't need it, I keep putting it off to do other more important things......like ride my motorcycle .........

I have no intention of buying a Mac. I already own software that I do not intend to repurchase for a different platform. It's as simple as that.....economics.

Macs have earned a reputation for avoiding malware on the internet.
But I learned which security apps to instal to avoid being compromised in Windows.
So, there is no advantage there for me to use a Mac.

I'm already 6 years behind the curve of technology, why change now  if there's nothing to benefit from the investment?

Hell....I'm still posting from Win98se ..............................works for me  and I don't have to give Gates or Jobs any more of my hard earned money for what I do with a computer and what I expect from it 

Ted?......I don't care if your new Mac is better than my old Dell, my old motorcycle is faster than your new Mac .......


----------



## jp1203

Stoner said:


> Ted?.....Why does it bother you that some PC/Windows users aren't interested in Macs?
> Personally, I don't care if you use an abacus or even your toes and fingers....
> 
> Obviously, your new Mac ( I'm assuming you own the latest and greatest by the way you brag on Macs) is going to provide a wider range of uses, more computing power than my 6 year old P3 800 Dell, but the machine only cost me $30 a year ago plus the software I have accumulated over time. It does all I need. It does it very well. Buying a new comp will not improve any productivity for me.
> I've thought about building a faster comp just as a hobby, but as I don't need it, I keep putting it off to do other more important things......like ride my motorcycle .........
> 
> I have no intention of buying a Mac. I already own software that I do not intend to repurchase for a different platform. It's as simple as that.....economics.
> 
> Macs have earned a reputation for avoiding malware on the internet.
> But I learned which security apps to instal to avoid being compromised in Windows.
> So, there is no advantage there for me to use a Mac.
> 
> I'm already 6 years behind the curve of technology, why change now  if there's nothing to benefit from the investment?
> 
> Hell....I'm still posting from Win98se ..............................works for me  and I don't have to give Gates or Jobs any more of my hard earned money for what I do with a computer and what I expect from it
> 
> Ted?......I don't care if your new Mac is better than my old Dell, my old motorcycle is faster than your new Mac .......


I agree. Why would I repurchase over 1000$ worth of software and buy two new Macs, when I'm happy with what I have?

I had a P3 800 MHz Dell Dimension L800r that just blew out the motherboard. Replaced it with a 2 GHz P4 IBM NetVista, not a Mac.

I end up acquiring older software, for instance a school had several spare copies of Windows 2000 Pro because they replaced everything with XP Pro machines. I got three 2k licences and disks. I got a few 98SE licenses in the same way.

I probably could have gotten an XP Pro disk because someone bought some forgetting the machines already came with it, but I wouldn't because I dislike XP. Actually, the machine I'm using now could have come with XP Pro OEM installed for the same price, but I determined that I'd throw 2000 on it, rendering the XP Pro useless for any other machine (since it's OEM) so I let them keep it.

End the thread, Ted.


----------



## hewee

Right now I am stuck wondering what to do?

Like to get a good new PC for running my image programs on like Painter, PS, PhotoImpact, Bryce, daz, Poser etc.
I know I need more then I have now because things run slow.

Got a XP-1800, 512DDR, 128DDR video card on a older PC I got in 2001 and run 98SE on it

Was wanting to get something a lot faster. Thinking of getting a workstation.
I have looked at Dell and Alienware and got to say the Alienware is very nice.
But there is also the new Apple, Mac Pro that came out. 
Like all the others here who like Windows I do also and have lots of software I do not what to have to buy again because it works. I just need a better faster computer.
But the new Mac Pro I could also run Windows on it with bootcamp. Not a cheap computer but after looking at the other brands and adding up the cost they can add up in price too when you config them to get the right video card and up the memory.
Looking at around $3000.00 or more. 
If I get the Mac Pro it will cost even more but I can still have Windows on the same computer. 

So I am going nuts here on what to do and am getting no where. I do not have room to have more then one computer really and wish I did so I could then get one newer Windows PC now and the a Mac later. 

So guess a Mac Pro would be my best bet but man it does cost and would be over $5000.00 easy getting the 4 GB of memory and 23" monitor and gets way higher with the nice 30" monitor. Then upgrade more and your easy pay twice what I said.


----------



## tedwinder

I don't have the 'latest greatest' Mac, check my computer specs. I'm just saying...give it a try!


----------



## hewee

I like to give it a try tedwinder. 
I just don't want to under do it not get what I need or over do it and get more then I need.


----------



## Stoner

tedwinder said:


> I don't have the 'latest greatest' Mac, check my computer specs. I'm just saying...give it a try!


Send me the money to experiment with a Mac and I'll 'give it a try' 
Would $3000 be enough to start with?


----------



## jp1203

Honestly, I would try OSX if someone gave me the money for a Mac, and gave me Mac versions of most of my programs.

OS9 is really annoying to me...I just don't like the interface. I would give OSX a shot, but it would cost a heck of a lot of money,


----------



## Couriant

Harry, for what you are planning to use it for (graphical and animation) then I would seriously suggest the Mac.

With a Wacom Tablet


----------



## jp1203

These are pretty good...
http://www.apple.com/getamac/ads/


----------



## hewee

Tidus4Yuna said:


> Harry, for what you are planning to use it for (graphical and animation) then I would seriously suggest the Mac.
> 
> With a Wacom Tablet


Yes that is just what I like to get it for and yep with a Wacom Tablet  I have been wanting to get for a long time.
I heard best not to upgrade the memory from apple because it is cheaper getting it someplace else and you can save lots of money.
Looking at memory sites I do not yet see it listing memory for the new Mac Pro but I do see the G5 memory and wow it is soooooo much cheaper then upgrading the memory from apple.

Memory
Mac Pro systems support up to 16GB of 667MHz DDR2 fully buffered ECC RAM in eight FB-DIMM slots. Choose among a variety of memory amounts and configurations.

1GB (2 x 512MB)
2GB (4 x 512MB) [Add $300]
4GB (4 x 1GB) [Add $1100]
8GB (8 x 1GB) [Add $2500]
8GB (4 x 2GB) [Add $2700]
16GB (8 x 2GB) [Add $5700]

Not cheap at all as you can see so if you can get it someplace else I bet your save $1000.00's

So how much memory would be good to have? Remember there will be the Windows XP installed on the Mac too and I know that will take lots of memory for the OS and all the anti-spyware, AV etc etc so was thinking 4 GB to 8 GB.
Would I even ever need to go 16 GB for anything.

Hey how do you put in 64 GB of memory on a Mac?
Was at Compusa and this guy was there for his brother and wanted 64 GB of memory to upgrade the Mac that was used for music and there band.


----------



## hewee

Ok I started my own thread here Tidus4Yuna.

http://forums.techguy.org/apple-macintosh/491348-wanting-get-new-mac-pro.html


----------



## Gibble

Sweet Jesus, and people say Windows uses alot of memory. I don't own a computer with more than 1gb of memory...and have no need for it.


----------



## hewee

You can get 64 GB of memory on a windows computers also.


----------



## jp1203

I have 512+ on all my machines...can't deal with less.

My Mac/Server has 640 MB...A little much, but I had a bunch of PC100 chips and it's got 4 slots, so I put it up pretty far.


----------



## SouthParkXP101

i have a dell xps 700 with 512 mb of ram x 2


----------



## VegasACF

Criminy... I can't _believe_ this **** is still going on...

Just use whatever works best for you, regardless of OS, platform, etc. and be done with it. My opinion about what you're using is as valuable to you as what your opinion about what I'm using is to me. If it works for you, great. If it works for me, great.

Polls like this are meaningless (especially when they're so poorly phrased to begin with [though we _all_ know what was intended, the subject matter has, nonetheless, been bandied about over more than several of these thirty-some-odd pages]).

I personally have recently been in _major_ studios in L.A. that are still using NuBus Macs, circa mid-1990s (Quadras and the like), for editing because they *do what they need them to do and they do it well*. When you're tracking to two-inch Studor machines it makes little difference of what ilk the editing platform is, so long as it does what they need, and does it in the sample/bit rate necessary (CDs are _still_ 16 bit, folks).

There's one studio, that shall remain nameless, and that is doing _major_ motion picture soundtracks to this day (think Energy Dome and, if you're old enough, you'll know of whom I speak), that hired Opcode's programmers (when Opcode went belly-up [largely because MOTU wouldn't adhere to the OMS "standard", but yet too many pro-level users were adhering to MOTU's "standard" that the "standard" adopted by "everybody else" [OMS--minor players on the scene, it turns out] ceased to exist) to come in and update the software as far as they could to keep it running on their hardware as long as they could (several years) because that was the software/hardware mix they were most comfortable with... The key is: IF IT WORKS FOR YOU DON'T F*** WITH IT!

If it ain't broke, don't fix it. If it is, then figure it out for yourself, don't tell anyone else about it and *LET THIS FREAKING THREAD DIE*.

...and this is coming from an Apple user for nearly 30 years.

Online "polls" prove nothing. They are not scientific. They have nothing to do with actual work being accomplished, no matter the platform. They're just forum fodder. And they're sickening.

(EDIT: fixed a typo)


----------



## Stoner

Reason and logic will get you nowhere, Vegas ......_
Be patient, I think a major event has been planned by Ted at the #500th post.
Unless I misunderstood, whoever posts it, wins.......what ever that is, what ever that means 

Thanks for bumping the thread 'one more time'.



enjoy the weekend...........Jack


----------



## linskyjack

I am using some very powerful multi-media programs with a 3.0ghz PC, loaded with 2 gigs of memory. You could probably build my machine for about 700-800 dollars today. I run Photoshop CS, Vegas Video, After Effects, Premiere Pro 2 and both speeds and stability are fine. My point is, unless you are editing in HD, or doing heavy duty design work, why spend so much money for a computer--be it a PC or a Mac. I sell my stuff all over the place and no one ever cared about what platform I used. Seeing that most of the software you use is PC based, why switch?


----------



## tedwinder

Would you not say that professional graphic designers primarly use Macs?


----------



## SouthParkXP101

keep your macs anything a mac can do a pc can do better


----------



## x_saosin_x

its illegal to buy a mac or to use one in my country


----------



## Stoner

tedwinder said:


> Would you not say that professional graphic designers primarly use Macs?


Ted?.....I think it would be safe to say that most TSG members are not professional graphic designers.

Why should I care, anyway? I'm not using my PC for intensive graphics.


----------



## jp1203

x_saosin_x said:


> its illegal to buy a mac or to use one in my country


 okay, what am I not getting? I hate being confused.


----------



## SouthParkXP101

maybe the ppl in his country like bananas better


----------



## Gibble

tedwinder said:


> Would you not say that professional graphic designers primarly use Macs?


True...but every other profession, including most information technology professionals use PCs primarily...be it Windows or *nix.


----------



## tedwinder

17 posts to go......


----------



## remaja

oh now it's 16 more to go


----------



## lexmarks567

PC here. Why cause mine cost 700? total. came with a 17inch flat screen moniter cd/dvd burner with lite-scrbe 1000MB ram 250GBs hard disk space expansion bay.keybord mouse.


----------



## SouthParkXP101

lexmarks567 said:


> PC here. Why cause mine cost 700? total. came with a 17inch flat screen moniter cd/dvd burner with lite-scrbe 1000MB ram 250GBs hard disk space expansion bay.keybord mouse.


dang you got a good setup there; what processer did you get ?


----------



## tedwinder

12......


----------



## SouthParkXP101

11...


----------



## tedwinder

10....


----------



## newhen

pc here why may you ask because macs are a dang lot more expansive and pcs have everything on em


----------



## newhen

8.....


----------



## SouthParkXP101

7...


----------



## Chovy

This is simple. Mac is far superior to a PC and although Ive been a Linux user for quite some time I really need to get a Macintosh.

The reason, apple is a hardware company. Not a software company as we remember them. This has resulted in bulletproof hardware which runs an OS built around it. Some Macs will run windows xp better than any Dell on the planet. And the truth is, OS X is more sophisticated than XP or Vista which itself is built for the lowest denominator.

Just look at the new Mac Pro workstations. Their faster than any comprable Dell server.


----------



## SouthParkXP101

nope dell is better than any mac by far buddy


----------



## VegasACF

Yes, Dell appears to be the hot ticket item right now.

Might even be a blue light special (and red light, alternating, as is sometimes the case with fire trucks).


----------



## SouthParkXP101

lol i saw that article about 50 minuets ago
now but ive seen recalls fir evry pc makers and mac too


----------



## Stoner

Bump


----------



## Stoner

Bump!


----------



## Stoner

The End 








Time to kill this thread


----------



## SouthParkXP101

bump ?


----------



## jp1203

Who thinks Ted was plotting to be the 500th poster so he could "win"? His mac was probably acting up so he couldn't...

just kidding, Ted.


----------



## tedwinder

Why did you choose to say 'bump' Stoner?

OK, PC won. And I suppose that that is the sensible answer, because al though they may not as advanced as Mac's, more people use them. And besides, most of you are in America - I'd have to stay up all night to be able to post the 500th post.

Congratulations, PC - but I still think Mac's are for more mature people, who don't spend all day playing games when they could be doing something else.


----------



## loserOlimbs

tedwinder said:


> Why did you choose to say 'bump' Stoner?
> 
> OK, PC won. And I suppose that that is the sensible answer, because al though they may not as advanced as Mac's, more people use them. And besides, most of you are in America - I'd have to stay up all night to be able to post the 500th post.
> 
> Congratulations, PC - but I still think Mac's are for more mature people, who don't spend all day playing games when they could be doing something else.


Sorry, I have to call that pure BS.

I remember when a MAC meant a green screen, and when Windows 3.1 launched.

Point being, Macs are for a specialised market, and they have lost their edge.
Give it a few years, Macs may be worth their hefty price tags again. For now, a decent PC is just as good as a great Mac!


----------



## tedwinder

loserOlimbs said:


> Point being, Macs are for a specialised market, and they have lost their edge.


They are partly for a specialised market, but Apple are trying to get people to realise that they are now for home use. Look at iLife and iWork for example.


----------



## gmcsierra99

im saying pc...

i never tryed mac though..


----------



## Yankee Rose

gmcsierra99 said:


> im saying pc...
> 
> i never tryed mac though..


At least you admit it!


----------



## Stoner

Ted said:



> Why did you choose to say 'bump' Stoner?


It was easy, obvious and more honest than doing a countdown, IMHO.....


----------



## Couriant

tedwinder said:


> Why did you choose to say 'bump' Stoner?
> 
> OK, PC won. And I suppose that that is the sensible answer, *because al though they may not as advanced as Mac's, more people use them.* And besides, most of you are in America - I'd have to stay up all night to be able to post the 500th post.
> 
> Congratulations, PC - but I still think Mac's are for more mature people, who don't spend all day playing games when they could be doing something else.


Not advanced? What's in your drink?  

The G5s are just as great as a PC. The use of the Macs is for more specialised sector like Loser mentioned. (again example would be for graphic design work). My guess is that everyone has more experience with a PC than a Mac. Which is fine but don't start dissing Macs just because you can't or have not used a Mac. They are more powerful than you think, again they are not used for everyday computer user would use it for.


----------



## Gibble

Chovy said:


> This is simple. Mac is far superior to a PC and although Ive been a Linux user for quite some time I really need to get a Macintosh.
> 
> The reason, apple is a hardware company. Not a software company as we remember them. This has resulted in bulletproof hardware which runs an OS built around it. Some Macs will run windows xp better than any Dell on the planet. And the truth is, OS X is more sophisticated than XP or Vista which itself is built for the lowest denominator.
> 
> Just look at the new Mac Pro workstations. Their faster than any comprable Dell server.


So if Apple is a "superior" "hardware company" ... why are they using an Intel PC Architecture?


----------



## Couriant

Gibble said:


> So if Apple is a "superior" "hardware company" ... why are they using an Intel PC Architecture?


probably the smartest thing... realising that people would build their machines if its more generic than what it is right now... plus the support for dualbooting with Windows me thinks.

But that's just a guess.


----------



## Gibble

tedwinder said:


> Why did you choose to say 'bump' Stoner?
> 
> OK, PC won. And I suppose that that is the sensible answer, because al though they may not as advanced as Mac's, more people use them. And besides, most of you are in America - I'd have to stay up all night to be able to post the 500th post.
> 
> Congratulations, PC - but I still think Mac's are for more mature people, who don't spend all day playing games when they could be doing something else.


All those crazy programmers...so immature...with their work. They clearly must be getting paid to play games 

Can you at least make logical arguments?


----------



## VegasACF

loserOlimbs said:


> I remember when a MAC meant a green screen, and when Windows 3.1 launched.


Your memory is as faulty as the rest of your points, then. Macs have _never_ had green screens. They were black and white at first, never green.

(edited for typo [fist instead of first])


----------



## Gibble

Tidus4Yuna said:


> probably the smartest thing... realising that people would build their machines if its more generic than what it is right now... plus the support for dualbooting with Windows me thinks.
> 
> But that's just a guess.


So basically...it has nothing to do with apples hardware.


----------



## Couriant

*shrugs* I don't know Gibbsie. I would have to read up on the decision to go to Intel chips.


----------



## VegasACF

This question has been asked and answered repeatedly, asked at least once by Gibbles, himself. Yet somehow it still seems to mystify people. I guess business sense eludes a lot of computer-types, because the answer, as I have repeatedly said in this very thread, is that it was a business decision, and nothing more.

Apple has never made processors. They first used a long line of Motorola-produced processors, the last being the the PPC 970-series. But Apple wanted faster, smaller, cooler processors and Motorola was dragging its feet. So Apple made the only decision it could to continue advancing its product line: go with another manufacturer, that currently being Intel.

The above statement, "it has nothing to do with apples [sic] hardware" is as meaningless now as it was when Motorola was the provider of CPUs. Regardless of their manufacturer, the CPUs are placed in...

...wait for it...

...Apple-branded hardware. And Apple-branded hardware is consistently of high quality and workmanship, unlike some other off-the-shelf computers to which one might compare.

Perhaps to some of you the CPU is the _only_ important thing in a computer. But to many of us this is simply not the case. Sure, we want as powerful a CPU as possible, but the experience that drives many of us to be Apple devotees is more than CPU. It is look, feel, user-friendlyness, et cetera, et cetera.


----------



## tedwinder

Gibble said:


> So if Apple is a "superior" "hardware company" ... why are they using an Intel PC Architecture?


Why are Microsoft?


----------



## Couriant

tedwinder said:


> Why are Microsoft?


Good point... AMDs are more better than Intel


----------



## VegasACF

And many Mac users were upset Apple went with Intel instead of AMD.


----------



## tedwinder

When I bought my Mac is was brand new, the latest version. But now (6 months later) my PowerPC G5 is considered 'old'!

Just shows you that Appe are keeping up with the technology......unlike Microsoft.

Apple have released 6 different versions of mac OS 10 in the last 5 years - Microsoft have released............2.


----------



## Couriant

computers are considered old once you open the box


----------



## Gibble

tedwinder said:


> Why are Microsoft?


Microsoft doesn't make computers. And they run on Intel and AMD chips.


----------



## Gibble

VegasACF said:


> This question has been asked and answered repeatedly, asked at least once by Gibbles, himself. Yet somehow it still seems to mystify people. I guess business sense eludes a lot of computer-types, because the answer, as I have repeatedly said in this very thread, is that it was a business decision, and nothing more.
> 
> Apple has never made processors. They first used a long line of Motorola-produced processors, the last being the the PPC 970-series. But Apple wanted faster, smaller, cooler processors and Motorola was dragging its feet. So Apple made the only decision it could to continue advancing its product line: go with another manufacturer, that currently being Intel.
> 
> The above statement, "it has nothing to do with apples [sic] hardware" is as meaningless now as it was when Motorola was the provider of CPUs. Regardless of their manufacturer, the CPUs are placed in...
> 
> ...wait for it...
> 
> ...Apple-branded hardware. And Apple-branded hardware is consistently of high quality and workmanship, unlike some other off-the-shelf computers to which one might compare.
> 
> Perhaps to some of you the CPU is the _only_ important thing in a computer. But to many of us this is simply not the case. Sure, we want as powerful a CPU as possible, but the experience that drives many of us to be Apple devotees is more than CPU. It is look, feel, user-friendlyness, et cetera, et cetera.




And what components of the Mac DOES Apple make?

Other than the OS.


----------



## Gibble

tedwinder said:


> When I bought my Mac is was brand new, the latest version. But now (6 months later) my PowerPC G5 is considered 'old'!
> 
> Just shows you that Appe are keeping up with the technology......unlike Microsoft.
> 
> Apple have released 6 different versions of mac OS 10 in the last 5 years - Microsoft have released............2.


1. The G5 is hardware. Microsoft doesn't make hardware! Get that through your head.
2. Apple has released 6 versions of OS 10. Microsoft has release 2 completey different OSes, and several Service Packs...which are fairly substantial version changes.


----------



## loserOlimbs

VegasACF said:


> Your memory is as faulty as the rest of your points, then. Macs have _never_ had green screens. They were black and white at fist, never green.


http://images.google.com/imgres?img...refox-a&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official_s&sa=N
Nope, never had green screens.


----------



## loserOlimbs

VegasACF said:


> ...Apple-branded hardware. And Apple-branded hardware is consistently of high quality and workmanship, unlike some other off-the-shelf computers to which one might compare.


Well, if this were a Mac VS Dell thread I would have changed my vote. But there are quality builders out there, and then there are those of us who build their own system and use only the best hardware from the best MFGs.


----------



## Stoner

Ted?.....Nows a good time to move this thread back to Random and see what other responses you get


----------



## Couriant

loserOlimbs said:


> Well, if this were a Mac VS Dell thread ...


This is the kicker. PC is not one brand. Apple is.


----------



## tedwinder

OK, I'm gonna move this thread over to Random Discussion.


----------



## Stoner

You're a good sport, Ted.....


----------



## steven1350

This poll is fixed. If you post it in the mac forum, obviously there will be more mac votes.

This should have been posted in the general forum.


----------



## tedwinder

It was, but then I moved it to Mac and tried to move it to PC but I coudn't so I left it where it was - here.


----------



## Gibble

steven1350 said:


> This poll is fixed. If you post it in the mac forum, obviously there will be more mac votes.
> 
> This should have been posted in the general forum.


Well..obviously not, since there are more PC votes than Mac votes.


----------



## tedwinder

steven1350 said:


> This poll is fixed. If you post it in the mac forum, obviously there will be more mac votes.
> 
> This should have been posted in the general forum.


And this poll is in no way fixed.


----------



## loserOlimbs

Tidus4Yuna said:


> This is the kicker. PC is not one brand. Apple is.


That was kind of my point Tidus, that PCs aren't built from low quality parts, some brands are.

Dell doesn't use great parts, hence the reference to them.


----------



## gmcsierra99

Yankee Rose said:


> At least you admit it!


yeah, why not?


----------



## VegasACF

loserOlimbs said:


> http://images.google.com/imgres?img...refox-a&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official_s&sa=N
> Nope, never had green screens.


Nope, never did. That is a picture of an Apple ||c, _not_ a Macintosh. And, just in case you happen across this picture, those aren't Mac monitors, either. They're for another Apple ][ system.

Please consult this page to become fully briefed on the first Mac. I had one. In fact, I _still_ have one. What computer did _you_ have in 1984? Does _it_ still boot up? Mine does.

...And the inanity continues.


----------



## Omega_Shadow

God, I should have never came back to this thread.

Now you guys are splitting hairs?! Come on now, a apple is an apple unless it's a mac?! Think about what your saying!

You know what, never mind. I ain't getting dragged into this again.


----------



## Couriant

steven1350 said:


> This poll is fixed.* If you post it in the mac forum, obviously there will be more mac votes.*
> 
> This should have been posted in the general forum.


umm... doubt it. Majority of users on TSG are PC orientatted


----------



## VegasACF

Omega_Shadow said:


> God, I should have never came back to this thread.
> 
> Now you guys are splitting hairs?! Come on now, a apple is an apple unless it's a mac?! Think about what your saying!
> 
> You know what, never mind. I ain't getting dragged into this again.


Reading is fundamental. And knowledge of history would help, too. It seems there is a lacking in both departments here.

Let me make it a little more basic for you, since it seems such a hard concept:

All Macs are Apple computers, but not all Apple computers are Macs. It's similar to the fact that all squares are rectangles, but not all rectangles are squares. Or all Corvettes are Chevys, but not all Chevys are Corvettes. Or all 737s are Boeings, but not all Boeings are 737s. Or all spaghetti is pasta, but not all pasta is spaghetti.

Does this make things ever-so-slightly less opaque for you?

The Apple II monitors to which I linked predated the Macintosh line by several years. The Apple ||c computer, which is what supposedly proves there were Macs with green screens (which, again, there _never_ were--again, I still have one of the first models released, and its screen is _black_ and _white_, not green monochrome), was released _after_ the first Mac (the 128k) was released, but was basically the same thing as the Apple ||e computer, which had been released in 1983, in a smaller case (with minor modifications, such as use of the 65C02 microprocessor in place of the ||e's 6502). Apple kept producing the ||e until 1990 (the ||e+ lasted that long, anyway), alongside the _separate_ Macintosh product line.

The two are completely different models of computers, from completely different product lines, both made by Apple.

Just in case this is still bewildering for you, here are some of the differences betwixt the two:

*Apple ||c*
*CPU*
CPU: SynerTek 65C02
CPU Speed: 1 MHz (IIc)/4 MHz (IIc+)
FPU: none
Bus Speed: 1 MHz (IIc)/4 MHz (IIc+)
Data Path: 8 bit
ROM: 32 kB
Onboard RAM: 128 kB
Maximum RAM: 1 MB (See Notes)

*Video*
*LOOK AT THIS ONE!!! --->**Monitor: Standard 9" Green monochrome*, optional LCD panel.
Max Resolution: 40/80 text, 40x40 4-bit, 80x40 4-bit, 140x192 6-color, 280x192 1-bit, 140x192 4-bit, 560x192 1-bit

*Storage*
Floppy Drive: 140 kB 5.25" (IIc)/800 kB 3.5" (IIc+), floppy port

*Input/Output*
Serial: 2
Speaker: mono

*Miscellaneous*
Codename: ET, IIb, IIp, Pippin, VLC, Elf, Yoda, Teddy, Chels, Jason, Lollie
Power: 18 Watts
Introduced: April 1984
Terminated: November 1990

*Notes*
The //c was considered a "closed system", and while third-party products allowed users to upgrade their RAM to 1 MB, but only by voiding the warrenty in the process.

*Apple Macintosh 128k*
*CPU*
CPU: Motorola MC68000
CPU Speed: 8 MHz
FPU: none
Bus Speed: 8 MHz
Data Path: 16 bit
ROM: 64 kB
Onboard RAM: 128 kB
Maximum RAM: 128 kB

*Video*
Monitor: 9" built-in
VRAM: 1 bit 512x342

*Storage*
Floppy Drive: 3.5" 400 kB

*Input/Output*
Serial: 2
Audio Out: mono 8 bit
Speaker: mono

*Miscellaneous*
Codename: Macintosh
Gestalt ID: 1
Power: 60 Watts
Dimensions: 13.6" H x 9.6" W x 10.9" D
Weight: 16.5 lbs.
Minimum OS: 1.0
Maximum OS: System 3.2/Finder 5.3
Introduced: January 1984
Terminated: October 1985

*Notes*
Released with much fanfare in January of 1984, the Macintosh was the first affordable computer to include a Graphical User Interface. It was built around the new Motorola 68000 chip, which was significantly faster than previous processors, running at 8 MHz. The Mac came in a small beige case *with a black and white monitor built in*. It came with a keyboard and mouse, and had a floppy drive that took 400 kB 3.5" disks--the first personal computer to do so. It originally sold for $2,495.


----------



## Yankee Rose

gmcsierra99 said:


> yeah, why not?


My comment wasn't a slam ..... it was actually a compliment.

My point was, a lot of people knock it before they try it, including several folks who have contributed to this thread.

It was refreshing to see your honesty. Have a good day.


----------



## tedwinder

Yankee Rose said:


> My point was, a lot of people knock it before they try it, including several folks who have contributed to this thread.


If you were reffering to me.......I have used Windows for about 2 or 3 years.


----------



## gmcsierra99

do you like it better?


----------



## Yankee Rose

tedwinder said:


> If you were reffering to me.......I have used Windows for about 2 or 3 years.


Heck no!


----------



## Gibble

VegasACF said:


> Reading is fundamental. And knowledge of history would help, too. It seems there is a lacking in both departments here.
> 
> Let me make it a little more basic for you, since it seems such a hard concept:
> 
> All Macs are Apple computers, but not all Apple computers are Macs. It's similar to the fact that all squares are rectangles, but not all rectangles are squares. Or all Corvettes are Chevys, but not all Chevys are Corvettes. Or all 737s are Boeings, but not all Boeings are 737s. Or all spaghetti is pasta, but not all pasta is spaghetti.
> 
> Does this make things ever-so-slightly less opaque for you?
> 
> The Apple II monitors to which I linked predated the Macintosh line by several years. The Apple ||c computer, which is what supposedly proves there were Macs with green screens (which, again, there _never_ were--again, I still have one of the first models released, and its screen is _black_ and _white_, not green monochrome), was released _after_ the first Mac (the 128k) was released, but was basically the same thing as the Apple ||e computer, which had been released in 1983, in a smaller case (with minor modifications, such as use of the 65C02 microprocessor in place of the ||e's 6502). Apple kept producing the ||e until 1990 (the ||e+ lasted that long, anyway), alongside the _separate_ Macintosh product line.
> 
> The two are completely different models of computers, from completely different product lines, both made by Apple.
> 
> Just in case this is still bewildering for you, here are some of the differences betwixt the two:
> 
> *Apple ||c*
> *CPU*
> CPU: SynerTek 65C02
> CPU Speed: 1 MHz (IIc)/4 MHz (IIc+)
> FPU: none
> Bus Speed: 1 MHz (IIc)/4 MHz (IIc+)
> Data Path: 8 bit
> ROM: 32 kB
> Onboard RAM: 128 kB
> Maximum RAM: 1 MB (See Notes)
> 
> *Video*
> *LOOK AT THIS ONE!!! --->**Monitor: Standard 9" Green monochrome*, optional LCD panel.
> Max Resolution: 40/80 text, 40x40 4-bit, 80x40 4-bit, 140x192 6-color, 280x192 1-bit, 140x192 4-bit, 560x192 1-bit
> 
> *Storage*
> Floppy Drive: 140 kB 5.25" (IIc)/800 kB 3.5" (IIc+), floppy port
> 
> *Input/Output*
> Serial: 2
> Speaker: mono
> 
> *Miscellaneous*
> Codename: ET, IIb, IIp, Pippin, VLC, Elf, Yoda, Teddy, Chels, Jason, Lollie
> Power: 18 Watts
> Introduced: April 1984
> Terminated: November 1990
> 
> *Notes*
> The //c was considered a "closed system", and while third-party products allowed users to upgrade their RAM to 1 MB, but only by voiding the warrenty in the process.
> 
> *Apple Macintosh 128k*
> *CPU*
> CPU: Motorola MC68000
> CPU Speed: 8 MHz
> FPU: none
> Bus Speed: 8 MHz
> Data Path: 16 bit
> ROM: 64 kB
> Onboard RAM: 128 kB
> Maximum RAM: 128 kB
> 
> *Video*
> Monitor: 9" built-in
> VRAM: 1 bit 512x342
> 
> *Storage*
> Floppy Drive: 3.5" 400 kB
> 
> *Input/Output*
> Serial: 2
> Audio Out: mono 8 bit
> Speaker: mono
> 
> *Miscellaneous*
> Codename: Macintosh
> Gestalt ID: 1
> Power: 60 Watts
> Dimensions: 13.6" H x 9.6" W x 10.9" D
> Weight: 16.5 lbs.
> Minimum OS: 1.0
> Maximum OS: System 3.2/Finder 5.3
> Introduced: January 1984
> Terminated: October 1985
> 
> *Notes*
> Released with much fanfare in January of 1984, the Macintosh was the first affordable computer to include a Graphical User Interface. It was built around the new Motorola 68000 chip, which was significantly faster than previous processors, running at 8 MHz. The Mac came in a small beige case *with a black and white monitor built in*. It came with a keyboard and mouse, and had a floppy drive that took 400 kB 3.5" disks--the first personal computer to do so. It originally sold for $2,495.


Yeah...and Sunfire's and Cavaliers aren't the same car.


----------



## VegasACF

You seem to have a real problem with comprehension. The Apple || series and the Apple Macintosh series were two completely different lines of computers. They used completely different processors (SynerTek in the ||s, Motorola in the Macs), completely different hardware, completely different OSes, etc.

They were as different as night and day.

An Apple || series computer was used as "proof" that Macs "once had green screens". This is flat out incorrect. But it is typical of many of you in this thread who willingly misstate facts and ignore reality to buttress your "points".


----------



## Gibble

I'll rephrase...so what's your point? I thought the process or and hardware didn't matter? After all...they don't use motorolla anymore.


----------



## Stoner

tedwinder said:


> If you were reffering to me.......I have used Windows for about 2 or 3 years.


Which version of Windows did you use, Ted?


----------



## VegasACF

Gibble said:


> I'll rephrase...so what's your point? I thought the process or and hardware didn't matter? After all...they don't use motorolla anymore.


Sheesh. Why do I even bother?

The "proof" that was put forth of Macs ever having a green screen was faulty. It was not a Macintosh that was shown. It was a completely different computer from a completely different line.

I'd write it in crayons for you if I thought it would help you to understand. Sadly, I doubt it would.


----------



## loserOlimbs

Well, fine Macs had black and white and I remember when Apples were green...

Now what does this change in the larger picture?


----------



## VegasACF

It corrects the record, at the very least. 

It also casts a shadow of doubt upon your "remembrances".


----------



## steven1350

tedwinder said:


> And this poll is in no way fixed.


ok, let me rephrase.

This poll is not fixed, but it is biased


----------



## Stoner

No matter where it's put, there'll be a bias.

What surprises me is how many Windows/PC users have responded to a thread placed in the Mac forum ....................


----------



## jp1203

I still think http://forums.techguy.org/3753994-post189.html is the funniest, most moronic post on the thread!


----------



## Gibble

JStergis said:


> I still think http://forums.techguy.org/3753994-post189.html is the funniest, most moronic post on the thread!


That's the stupidest thing I have ever heard.



tedwinder said:


> But Microsoft are too selfish to let Apple run Mac OS X on their computers.


Apple could make OS X run on a PC...they choose not too.

And when you find a "Microsoft Computer"...let me know!


----------



## VegasACF

Gibble said:


> And when you find a "Microsoft Computer"...let me know!


I found one...

It's a custom, symmetrical, three-core CPU, each running at 3.2 GHz; 500 MHz ATI graphics processor; 512 MB RAM; built-in wireless...

Want to see it?

Here.

And, yes, it _is_ a computer.


----------



## Gibble

VegasACF said:


> I found one...
> 
> It's a custom, symmetrical, three-core CPU, each running at 3.2 GHz; 500 MHz ATI graphics processor; 512 MB RAM; built-in wireless...
> 
> Want to see it?
> 
> Here.
> 
> And, yes, it _is_ a computer.


----------



## tedwinder

Stoner said:


> Which version of Windows did you use, Ted?


Windows XP Home Edition


----------



## VegasACF

Gibble said:


>


You can roll your eyes all you want. You asked for something, I gave it to you. Are you now not satisfied when the exact thing you asked for is produced?


----------



## Gibble

VegasACF said:


> You can roll your eyes all you want. You asked for something, I gave it to you. Are you now not satisfied when the exact thing you asked for is produced?


It has computer components...so does a PVR....is that now a computer too 

I knew I should have qualified computer as "Personal Computer", to differentiate it from a wrist watch...but I assumed people had a little common sense.


----------



## VegasACF

Gibble said:


> It has computer components...so does a PVR....is that now a computer too


Considering you can run Linux on an X-box, I'd say your recent spate of eye-rolling is foolishness.



Gibble said:


> I knew I should have qualified computer as "Personal Computer", to differentiate it from a wrist watch...but I assumed people had a little common sense.


I answered the request you asked. I'm sorry, but my crystal ball is out for repair and I'm not much of a mind reader, thus leaving me able to answer only those questions and requests that are actually asked. You asked for a Microsoft computer. I produced one.


----------



## Couriant

VegasACF said:


> You can roll your eyes all you want. You asked for something, I gave it to you. Are you now not satisfied when the exact thing you asked for is produced?


Do you actually believe that we think you didn't know what he meant? Come on now, that's just being smarmy about it.


----------



## VegasACF

Do _you_ actually think the X-box is _not_ a computer?

You're sadly mistaken, if so.


----------



## Couriant

XBOX to me and most others is a console. PC is a computer...


----------



## jp1203

I call the X-Box, PS, Nintendo, etc. consoles, as Tidus4Yuna said. Technically, they are computers, but so are the controls on a microwave oven.


----------



## loserOlimbs

JStergis said:


> I call the X-Box, PS, Nintendo, etc. consoles, as Tidus4Yuna said. Technically, they are computers, but so are the controls on a microwave oven.


The Xbox plays games, when did it do spread sheets....?

Besides, anything can run linux!


----------



## remaja

If all of you are given a choice, would rather pay for linux in comparison to windows?
I know linux is free. but would you like it if linux takes over windows? why?
I have never tried linux before, and would like to give it a try.
can I get some comments and reviews on it?
the goods and bads
thatnks


----------



## Stoner

Hi remaja 

It wouldn't matter to me if Linux was free or commercial, everything I use is already on the Windows platform, so, I'll be sticking with that as it works to my satisfaction.

I have tried several Linux distros, from installed to Live CDs.
I do have an interest in the Live CDs, especially Slax.
But I've only found it convienent for surfing the Internet.

Many people seem to like Ubuntu. It seems stable but using the gui, it appears slower than Windows on my hardware.(Dell P3 800 384 mb ram) Firefox is noticably slower.
Many of the names of apps seem to have little recognition to their function. Quite confusing to me.
Installing an app has always seemed a mystery to me, in Linux.
I do like the 'module' concept in Slax, however.

I really don't mind the 'hand holding' that Windows is criticized for


----------



## remaja

I have started a new thread about linux and wish to get help thereHere


----------



## loserOlimbs

Stoner said:


> Hi remaja
> 
> It wouldn't matter to me if Linux was free or commercial, everything I use is already on the Windows platform, so, I'll be sticking with that as it works to my satisfaction.
> 
> I have tried several Linux distros, from installed to Live CDs.
> I do have an interest in the Live CDs, especially Slax.
> But I've only found it convienent for surfing the Internet.
> 
> Many people seem to like Ubuntu. It seems stable but using the gui, it appears slower than Windows on my hardware.(Dell P3 800 384 mb ram) Firefox is noticably slower.
> Many of the names of apps seem to have little recognition to their function. Quite confusing to me.
> Installing an app has always seemed a mystery to me, in Linux.
> I do like the 'module' concept in Slax, however.
> 
> I really don't mind the 'hand holding' that Windows is criticized for


In other words, bash commands are great once you learn them... but learning Linux VS learning Windows is a tough idea.

Windows is point and shoot, Linux is a science.


----------



## jp1203

I'm trying to switch almost entirely to PCLinuxOS on my Non-Internet PC. Just a few things to work out.


----------



## Stoner

loserOlimbs said:


> In other words, bash commands are great once you learn them... but learning Linux VS learning Windows is a tough idea.
> 
> Windows is point and shoot, Linux is a science.


I think that's a fair comparison.
Being a home user, I don't need the technical abilities afforded by Linux.


----------



## remaja

BUt on the other hand stoner, I would say that Linux being a science thing may be a good way to learn more and explore would it? I would be interested to learn about it.


----------



## SouthParkXP101

well ive never used linux so im not that familar with it but what is the advantage of it over other programs ?


----------



## remaja

that's what I want to find out in this thread


----------



## SouthParkXP101

to me microsoft has been evrything that i need and has done all that i ask of it but if linux is comparible to microsoft and is better, id like to try new software/hardware/programs


----------



## remaja

I would'nt bet that there will enough choices of softwares to use though. I am not sure. The number of software out there that are compatible with Linux might be even less in comparison to Macs


----------



## Couriant

remaja said:


> I would'nt bet that there will enough choices of softwares to use though. I am not sure. The number of software out there that are compatible with Linux might be even less in comparison to Macs


Pretty much. Most if not all are all made by programmers, as in not by publishers like Bungie etc.


----------



## Stoner

remaja said:


> BUt on the other hand stoner, I would say that Linux being a science thing may be a good way to learn more and explore would it? I would be interested to learn about it.


If that is your interest, certainly.
Which is probably why I have an interest in the Linux Live CDs.
I just don't seem to have the time for a commitment to completely swap Windows for Linux for everyday usage.
Currently, my computer does all I need. If I needed more as do many computer enthusiasists and businesses, I would probably involve myself more into the Linux realm out of necessity.


----------



## loserOlimbs

WOW! So many great questions and points!

Advantages of Linux over Windows, its usually free, and when you do pay you pay for support/ packaging (bibles) and not the OS itself.
Stability. Once your up and running, thats usually it. Most distros of Linux support most hardware right from the first boot, even the installers sometimes are great looking GUI enviroments, with mouse support and everything.

Plus if your can't commit you have the Live CDs.

GRUB is a great bootloader, and its free.

Support and software...
Depending on the distro you may have to rely 100% on your skills, or have the same backing M$ or Apple would offer.
Software for linux is open source and free (Usually) Openoffice is one example.

What programs aren't written for the Linux kernals cane usually be emulated with a program called "Wine" (sp). So games that you bought for your PC may still run in linux, that is a may though. If you want to buy a game to play in Linux, you should see if its been done or if its not possible.

And again Grub comes into play, if you want Linux installed but want to be able to Dual boot to Windows, GRUB does it and does it well.

If I missed anything, say so. I'm guessing OS will wander back in and help out now too.


----------



## Stoner

Some interesting stats on OS usage:

LINK


----------



## VegasACF

BMW has a smaller market share than Apple. What does this prove?


----------



## Stoner

VegasACF said:


> BMW has a smaller market share than Apple. What does this prove?


That more people use Apples than BMWs.
What's your point?
All I posted was usage stats.


----------



## Gibble

VegasACF said:


> BMW has a smaller market share than Apple. What does this prove?


That comparing Cars to Computers is stupid.


----------



## Couriant

gotta be a hoax....



from link above said:


> Macintosh is fourth with 2.32%, but immediately followed by yet another Microsoft title, *Windows ME with 1.09%.*


----------



## Couriant

Gibble said:


> That comparing Cars to Computers is stupid.


like comparing computers to consoles...


----------



## Gibble

Tidus4Yuna said:


> like comparing computers to consoles...


I agree...that was stupid too.


----------



## Couriant

I know... I mean really, he could have argued that a calcuator was a 'computer'...


----------



## VegasACF

com·put·er 
n. 
A device that computes, especially a programmable electronic machine that performs high-speed mathematical or logical operations or that assembles, stores, correlates, or otherwise processes information.

Show me a calculator that has a three-core CPU, each running at 3.2 GHz; 500 MHz ATI graphics processor; 512 MB RAM; built-in wireless, etc. But, since you want to go there, the high-end TI and HP calculators are _definitely_ in the computer category.

You might not like being proven wrong, but that doesn't change the fact that you _are_, Giblets. And you seem to be pretty darned good at it.


----------



## Stoner

Next we'll have to include Bosch for their contribution to fuel injection since the late '60s


----------



## Gibble

VegasACF said:


> com·put·er
> n.
> A device that computes, especially a programmable electronic machine that performs high-speed mathematical or logical operations or that assembles, stores, correlates, or otherwise processes information.
> 
> Show me a calculator that has a three-core CPU, each running at 3.2 GHz; 500 MHz ATI graphics processor; 512 MB RAM; built-in wireless, etc. But, since you want to go there, the high-end TI and HP calculators are _definitely_ in the computer category.
> 
> You might not like being proven wrong, but that doesn't change the fact that you _are_, Giblets. And you seem to be pretty darned good at it.


You're an idiot. Hide behind your definitions, the hell with common sense!


----------



## VegasACF

:lol:


----------



## SouthParkXP101

Giblets ? what is a giblet?


----------



## VegasACF

Giblets are the edible viscera of a fowl.


----------



## SouthParkXP101

VegasACF said:


> Giblets are the edible viscera of a fowl.


interisting


----------



## tedwinder

I would assume that any thing running on a microchip is a computer. is that right?


----------



## tedwinder

http://www.llamma.com/xbox/beowulf.htm


----------



## tedwinder

VegasACF said:


> com·put·er
> n.
> A device that computes, especially a programmable electronic machine that performs high-speed mathematical or logical operations or that assembles, stores, correlates, or otherwise processes information.
> 
> Show me a calculator that has a three-core CPU, each running at 3.2 GHz; 500 MHz ATI graphics processor; 512 MB RAM; built-in wireless, etc. But, since you want to go there, the high-end TI and HP calculators are _definitely_ in the computer category.
> 
> You might not like being proven wrong, but that doesn't change the fact that you _are_, Giblets. And you seem to be pretty darned good at it.


And another.

computer

Computer

A machine that can be programmed to manipulate
symbols. Computers can perform complex and repetitive
procedures quickly, precisely and reliably and can quickly
store and retrieve large amounts of data.

The physical components from which a computer is constructed
(electronic circuits and input/output devices) are known as
"hardware". Most computers have four types of hardware
component: CPU, input, output and memory. The CPU (central
processing unit) executes programs ("software") which tell
the computer what to do. Input and output (I/O) devices allow
the computer to communicate with the user and the outside
world. There are several kinds of memory - fast, expensive,
short term memory (e.g. RAM) to hold intermediate results,
and slower, cheaper, long-term memory (e.g. magnetic disk and
magnetic tape) to hold programs and data between jobs.


----------



## Stoner

Ted, that's exactly correct. But the discusion is not about computers ingeneral, it's about PCs and Macs.
Nobody has confused them with Suns or Crays which carry a distinction from the topic.
Like I said sarcasticly........next it will be Bosch and the the onboard auto computer.

The XBox may have a computer inside, but it's intended function isn't to be used as a PC.
It's intended purpose is a gaming console.

The Space Shuttle uses an Intel processor. Doesn't make it a giant PC, either...

Of interest, I found this site showing processor usage in space technology of the past:
LINK

Notice that nowhere in those definitions you and Vegas presented, is the term 'personal computer' ( PC ) used 

As Gibble said:


> I knew I should have qualified computer as "Personal Computer", to differentiate it from a wrist watch...but I assumed people had a little common sense.


As the topic of discussion is/was PC vs Macs......I thought it obvious.
Maybe some members are just 'spaced out'.......


----------



## remaja

One thing I like about macs though, is their rolling taskbar thing. I don't know what you call it, dock or something?
But anyway I just like the fact that I open apps, swicth between runing apps easily and that I can actually see what's inside an open app.
I got a software that allows me to have Mac look alike interface. and I like it just fine. Though it may not be 100% mac interface.


----------



## Couriant

I love the dock feature too.  and even the feature where you can view all the opened apps in a preview mode so you can choose which opened app. you want.



stoner said:


> Notice that nowhere in those definitions you and Vegas presented, is the term 'personal computer' ( PC ) used


THANK YOU!  Finally someone gets it.


----------



## tedwinder

and front row and photo booth


----------



## Stoner

Hey Ted 

Have you tried to move this thread?


----------



## tedwinder

to where?


----------



## Stoner

You did post you were going to move this thread back to Random , did you not?
Have you asked a mod to move it?


----------



## tedwinder

Yes, I did ask a moderator to move it. Has it not been moved, then?


----------



## Stoner

No, it hasn't....Ted.
Maybe the admin would just as soon see it die here


----------



## Nick8539

Im Getting A Macbook! Woot!


----------



## VegasACF

Congrats. You'll love it.


----------



## Gibble

My condolences on the purchase


----------



## Nick8539

Gibble said:


> My condolences on the purchase


  Funny guy you are 

And love it I will!

Oooh im so excited but I have to wait for the stupid apple credit card to come in the mail...


----------



## jp1203

Get an IBM Laptop and put a Linux Distro on it, THAT's the best notebook, or at the worst Win 2000 (I still vote Win2k was the best OS MS ever made; stable, secure, no Product Activation. )


----------



## Gibble

JStergis said:


> Get an IBM Laptop and put a Linux Distro on it, THAT's the best notebook, or at the worst Win 2000 (I still vote Win2k was the best OS MS ever made; stable, secure, no Product Activation. )


Get a Toshiba not IBM.


----------



## hewee

Study: Apple leads industry in customer satisfaction

http://www.theacsi.org/second_quarter.htm#per

Apple Mac desktops, notebooks top PC Magazine's Annual Reader Satisfaction survey - again

http://www.pcmag.com/article2/0,1895,2006497,00.asp


----------



## Couriant

unfortunatley Apple is recalling 1.8mil batteries!

http://forums.techguy.org/3920883-post73.html


----------



## jp1203

I've never liked Toshiba. I think IBM is the best brand for laptops. ONE Story out of a few is: My dad has five that he loans out to doctors giving speeches at the hospital (he's the AV guy there).

The two IBMs are both going great after five years of torture (people frequently drop them). 
There is one Toshiba that was not moved by people other than him...just sent to the other room for Powerpoint and projector use. It's 3 years old that has an almost fried HDD (it makes horrible noises and will just stop for 10 seconds or so, then fire back up) and LCD (it has a horrible green tint and won't display all the colors unless you hit it just right,) not good enough to loan out anymore. It never felt very durable even though it was top of the line, as the IBMs are.
There are two one-year-old top of the line HP Business ones that I are treated similar to the way the Toshiba was, I like them, but I doubt they'll live as well as the IBMs, although they don't have any problems yet.


----------



## Pensacola Tiger

<< Get a Toshiba not IBM. >>

Five years ago I would have agreed with you, but Toshiba's quality has gone downhill since then. IBM, or more properly - Lenovo, still makes a high quality laptop, the 'T' series.

Just my two cents...


----------



## Emmerac

I have many reasons for choosing the Macintosh over other platforms. One of which is elegance. I am willing to pay a premium for the experience that is Macintosh. And I don't mean the OS X experience or the seamless apps that are Macintosh. I mean the good feeling I get from simply owning such and immaculate luxury.


----------



## macguru

Macs are just better quality computers


----------



## loserOlimbs

macguru said:


> Macs are just better quality computers


Well, I'd ask for proof... or we can play semantics again...

Macs use better quality parts then Dell for instance. Other companies might use better products then even Mac uses.

All told it comes down to preference, nothing more.


----------



## tedwinder

Tidus4Yuna said:


> unfortunatley Apple is recalling 1.8mil batteries!
> 
> http://forums.techguy.org/3920883-post73.html


So are Dell!

http://www.ft.com/cms/s/6dc99db6-2bee-11db-a7e1-0000779e2340.html


----------



## gmcsierra99

yeahh, but it's not Dell's fault, Dell dont make the batteries...

i do like the IMac's magnetic plug thing...


----------



## tedwinder

If you really want to get a laptop running Windows (or Linux), I suggest the Sony Vaio.


----------



## tedwinder

gmcsierra99 said:


> yeahh, but it's not Dell's fault, Dell dont make the batteries...


Either do Apple.


----------



## Couriant

tedwinder said:


> So are Dell!
> 
> http://www.ft.com/cms/s/6dc99db6-2bee-11db-a7e1-0000779e2340.html


Have you noticed the simialirty? Both used batteries from SONY!


----------



## Gibble

Emmerac said:


> I have many reasons for choosing the Macintosh over other platforms. One of which is elegance. I am willing to pay a premium for the experience that is Macintosh. And I don't mean the OS X experience or the seamless apps that are Macintosh. I mean the good feeling I get from simply owning such and immaculate luxury.




What luxury?

You, ted, etc, are screaming from the rooftops how Mac is better...but you can't offer one tangible reason for it.


----------



## Stoner

42 pages......sigh!


----------



## Omega_Shadow

Gibbile, are you still trying to use _reason_ and _facts_ with the *macoids? Your a persistent one, I will give ya that  But you should know by now that it's pointless because those are abstract thoughts to them. They would rather split hairs about what they are actually comparing rather then give any facts about WHY they think macs are better. I think it is time for you to grab a nice tall frosty one and just let the children have their way. 

*Macoid: One that uses a mac purely because it is called a mac and yet defends their reasonless choice as the only "right" choice. This name does not include Apple Computer Users that have actual fact driven reasons for owning an Apple.


----------



## Couriant

Gibble said:


> What luxury?


I think the poster meant the look and feel. Which I can understand.


----------



## Gibble

Tidus4Yuna said:


> I think the poster meant the look and feel. Which I can understand.


Mac's all look the same...like Macs.

PCs have variety.


----------



## Omega_Shadow

Gibble said:


> Mac's all look the same...like Macs.
> 
> PCs have variety.


"Just when I thought I was out, They pull me back in!"

......agreed. You can customize a PC to your hearts content, even get case lights and glass sides. If you so desired you could change the case every month or so if you're that vain about the whole thing, and for much cheaper then the "luxury" of owning a mac that looks like every other mac.


----------



## tedwinder

I suppose I'd better take back my reccomendation!


----------



## VegasACF

Omega_Shadow said:


> "Just when I thought I was out, They pull me back in!"
> 
> ......agreed. You can customize a PC to your hearts content, even get case lights and glass sides. If you so desired you could change the case every month or so if you're that vain about the whole thing, and for much cheaper then the "luxury" of owning a mac that looks like every other mac.


Yes, and you can go out and buy a Honda Civic and put one of those huge exhaust pipes on it, groud effects, a huge spoiler, neon lights, curb feelers, fuzzy dice, etc. Personally, I'd rather have a _nice_ car straight from the factory.

But, for whatever it's worth (not much, in my opinion), it seems you folks with a penchant for modding cases are wrong if you think the same can't be done with a Mac. And, amazingly enough, all it took was a quick Google search to find some examples:

Here's one

Here's another

Here's some lighting effects

And here is a site devoted to those who want to tamper with the beauty that is the Mac.

Anyone else wish to peddle some disinformation regarding the Mac? I'll be happy to refute it, as my time allows.


----------



## Gibble

Wow...three links to a hacked site and one link to a painted case 

And I wasn't talking about case modding, I was talking about case variety...
http://www.ncix.com/products/index.php?majorcatid=100&minorcatid=104


----------



## VegasACF

Tidus4Yuna said:


> I think the poster meant the look and feel. Which I can understand.


De gustibum non est disputandum. Apparently that's a hard concept for some. :shrug:



Giblets said:


> Wow...three links to a hacked site and one link to a painted case


I merely provided the first few links from a Google search. I assumed you would be competent enough to conduct your own search, but it seems that was an incorrect assumption. I guess it's time to get out the crayons to draw you pictures you can understand.



Giblets said:


> And I wasn't talking about case modding, I was talking about case variety...
> http://www.ncix.com/products/index.php?majorcatid=100&minorcatid=104


Wow, someone thinks awfully highly of himself, assuming all posts are directed towards him, when, in fact, he was not even mentioned. Perhaps rather than "Giblets" I should start calling you "Narcissus"?


----------



## Stoner

Oddly enough, I seldom have the desire to watch the 'case' while I'm using my computer


----------



## Gibble

VegasACF said:


> De gustibum non est disputandum. Apparently that's a hard concept for some. :shrug:


You mean "De *gustibus *non est disputandum". And what does taste have to do with anything? A PC allows a person to buy a case that suits their tastes...no need to conform...as with a Mac.


----------



## Gibble

Stoner said:


> Oddly enough, I seldom have the desire to watch the 'case' while I'm using my computer


I do...but ussually it's merely because I'm trying to sweet talk my PC into loading something faster...though...simply adding some memory would fix the problem


----------



## Gibble

VegasACF said:


> Wow, someone thinks awfully highly of himself, assuming all posts are directed towards him, when, in fact, he was not even mentioned. Perhaps rather than "Giblets" I should start calling you "Narcissus"?


Uh...whatever...it's not narcism, it's logic.

Omega made a point agreeing with something I said and expanding on it. You made a post, I replied to it...

...I didn't know you were so stuck up, that I had to wait for you to address me, before I could address you.


----------



## VegasACF

Gibble said:


> You mean "De *gustibus *non est disputandum".


Indeed, thanks.



Gibble said:


> Uh...whatever...it's not narcism, it's logic.
> 
> Omega made a point agreeing with something I said and expanding on it. You made a post, I replied to it...
> 
> ...I didn't know you were so stuck up, that I had to wait for you to address me, before I could address you.


I quoted the post to which I replied, citing specific examples of the same thing done to Macs. You never entered the equation. Look again:



Omega_Shadow said:


> You can *customize a PC to your hearts content*, even get *case lights and glass sides*. If you so desired you could change the case every month or so if you're that vain about the whole thing, and for much cheaper then the "luxury" of owning a mac that looks like every other mac.


(emphasis added)

Have a nice day, Narcissus.


----------



## Gibble

whatever.


----------



## MSM Hobbes

Can say that there are for the most part, two camps of people:

1. those who like to tinker, to do whatever they want with whatever parts they desire to modify, to create, to manipulate for increased/different operating experience.

2. those who would rather have a machine that for the most part does what it should, when it should, how it should, w/o much fuss at all about it.

Neither desire is necessarily good nor bad. For example, w/o the tinkers, Apple would never have been created. W/o the drive to have an improved interaction, a faster, 'better' machine, we'd still be playing w/ "trash-80's"   However, for some, such as myself many times, I'd rather not have to tweak, etc. a computer - day is too short, tasks are too many, and I'd rather spend my precious time getting actual desires done, instead of fighting and/or whatever the s/w and/or h/w to get what needs done accomplished. Enter the 'beauty', simplicity, the overall 'think different' experience which is the Macintosh environment. Some like it, some wrinkle their noses - to each their own.


----------



## loserOlimbs

VegasACF said:


> Yes, and you can go out and buy a Honda Civic and put one of those huge exhaust pipes on it, groud effects, a huge spoiler, neon lights, curb feelers, fuzzy dice, etc. Personally, I'd rather have a _nice_ car straight from the factory.


Wait, now we're knocking the Civics around?

Yeah, I can see why one would hate a $15,000 dollar car that gets 30+ MPG, and runs 200,000 + miles with very little maintenance. They drive pretty damn nicely too. I guess the alternative is to spend 50,000 dollars on a sports car that gets 8 mile a gallon, goes fast and blows radiators as often as gas prices rise.

Or better yet, there is Ferrari, who sells some of its cars and allows no customization. A better CD player and they take the car back...


----------



## loserOlimbs

MSM Hobbes said:


> Can say that there are for the most part, two camps of people:
> 
> 1. those who like to tinker, to do whatever they want with whatever parts they desire to modify, to create, to manipulate for increased/different operating experience.
> 
> 2. those who would rather have a machine that for the most part does what it should, when it should, how it should, w/o much fuss at all about it.


Hmmm, those both sound like a PC to me. As a somewhat educated PC user, I can't ever remember having real issues with any of my systems. Rock solid running XP, Vista and Linux Fedora right now...


----------



## Stoner

There's a lot to be said for a stable computer.

My 6 year old Dell P3 800 seems stable, even with 98se on it 

Just out of curiosity, I wonderwhat's the oldest Mac being used on a regular basis by a TSG member?


----------



## MSM Hobbes

loserOlimbs said:


> Hmmm, those both sound like a PC to me. As a somewhat educated PC user, I can't ever remember having real issues with any of my systems. Rock solid running XP, Vista and Linux Fedora right now...


Ok silly... you know what I mean...  

For example:
Take a PC out of the box, attach it to the 'net, and whatcha got? 
Take an Apple out of the box, attach it to the 'net, and?


----------



## Stoner

MSM Hobbes said:


> Ok silly... you know what I mean...
> 
> For example:
> Take a PC out of the box, attach it to the 'net, and whatcha got?
> Take an Apple out of the box, attach it to the 'net, and?


Well ....if it's a Mac, you've probably just increased the user base times two.....


----------



## MSM Hobbes

Stoner said:


> Well ....if it's a Mac, you've probably just increased the user base times two.....




Quality my friend trumps quantity


----------



## tedwinder

http://www.techeblog.com/index.php/tech-gadget/top-10-strangest-mac-mods


----------



## giovannicosta

Pc! No Comment, Its Just Great, Why Change


----------



## tedwinder

Have you ever tried Mac?


----------



## Stoner

Ted, are you so wealthy you can just go out and buy computers till you find the one you like most?
You've asked that question several times when the PC poster has said they're pleased with the way it works.
If they're pleased, why would they change to start with?


----------



## loserOlimbs

I've tried Macs, and my main concern was the GUI seemed backwards and ineffecient.

Now with Boot Camp, I know I could put Windows on the Mac, but why spend $2000 dollars for something a $800 PC could do?


----------



## Couriant

loserOlimbs said:


> Now with Boot Camp, I know I could put Windows on the Mac, but why spend $2000 dollars for something a $800 PC could do?


Well, you wouldn't have OS X (or whatever the OS will be at the time)


----------



## Couriant

Stoner said:


> Just out of curiosity, I wonderwhat's the oldest Mac being used on a regular basis by a TSG member?


Using a G3 (or maybe G4) with OS X on it. Runs fine to me... seems a little better than my custom build


----------



## VegasACF

I've got a PowerBook 520c, circa 1994, that I use semi-regularly as a MIDI sequencer and/or time code generator when I need such a beast in a live setting (if it gets knocked over or has a beer spilled in it it's not a huge, life-altering, mind-boggling loss--much better than bringing my PowerBook G4 or MacBook Pro to a gig!). 

And, for whatever it's worth, every Mac I still own will fire up, including, but not limited to a Mac Plus, a Mac SE/30, a Mac IIfx and a couple of Mac clones.


----------



## jp1203

FWIW, I saw a member here who used a Dell Precision 486 with 8 MB RAM and Windows 3.1 I'll go dig and see if I can figure out who. He (or she) may well use the oldest _PC_ of any TSG member for posting.


----------



## jp1203

Now that I look, it might not be Windows 3.1

http://forums.techguy.org/members/26276-kilowatt1.html


----------



## tedwinder

Stoner said:


> Ted, are you so wealthy you can just go out and buy computers till you find the one you like most?
> You've asked that question several times when the PC poster has said they're pleased with the way it works.
> If they're pleased, why would they change to start with?


No, all I'm saying is that you can't say 'I don't like that' unless you've actually tried something. If people are happy with PC's, thats fine with me, I'm just encouraging them to pop down to an Apple Store and try out a Mac. You never know what may happen!


----------



## Stoner

tedwinder said:


> No, all I'm saying is that you can't say 'I don't like that' unless you've actually tried something. If people are happy with PC's, thats fine with me, I'm just encouraging them to pop down to an Apple Store and try out a Mac. You never know what may happen!





> No, all I'm saying is that you can't say 'I don't like that' unless you've actually tried something.


I think I've demonstrated a reasonable counter to that with the financial aspects.
I can say ....and have said.....'I don't like' that because of the added costs to ownership and the issue of rebuying applications that would have to run on a different platform or even buying a specific new Windows(XP) in order to run the win apps I have. Also, will Vista even run on a Mac? If not, you're stuck using what becomes an obsolete Win OS .



> I'm just encouraging them to pop down to an Apple Store and try out a Mac.


A couple of minutes using a display machine hardly relates to how an owner winds up configuring/using a machine, no matter if it's a comparison of the hardware or of the opperating systems. Reviews of each machine give a much better picture of what to expect, IMO.

Just give me a couple thousand dollars and I will gladly/happily test out a Mac for the next year


----------



## tedwinder

My comment was aimed at the people who can't be bothered to try something before they slag it off.


----------



## tedwinder

Does this mean Mac wins?


----------



## Stoner

No Ted......

There is just one winner, second place is just the first loser 
As MS holds down over 90% of the market on personal computers.......it shows the relative position of you losers 




___


----------



## tedwinder

Doesn't mean they're better.


----------



## Stoner

No it doesn't.
But you lose anyway


----------



## VegasACF

Keep on thinking that.


----------



## jp1203

The 'Fruity Mac Users' just won't give up. (I still crack-up on that one)

Let's just say PC Wins, this has gone on for too long and PC has been ahead for 95% of the time. Request a thread Lock, Ted!


----------



## Stoner

JStergis said:


> ...........
> .........
> ............ Request a thread Lock, Ted!


:up:

I think that's a suggestion we can mostly all agree on


----------



## Gibble




----------



## VegasACF

That's pretty cool. I don't think you'd want to have been eating fried chicken before using it, though!


----------



## tedwinder

Yeah, thats cool.


----------



## linskyjack

I bought my daughter an Ipod and a Powerbook for her graduation and to use for college. I bought the Apple's because I swallowed the myth that somehow their computers and electronics are made better then those in the Intel/MS world. In the past year, I have had to replace two of the Ipods and now her Powerbook went on the blink (problem with the AC adapter and running without a battery---her's was recalled). I spend some time on the support and discussion sites over at Apple, and from what I can read, there is a growing backlash against the company. It appears as if as they increase their market share, their quality and support have gone down (which is the norm for any business). Even my daughter is no longer gung-ho about Apple anymore. By they way, I took Apple Care for the Ipod (because I heard they had problems) but didn't take it for the Powerbook. I figured if the Powerbook made it through the warranty period, it would be free-sailing from there. 

Anyhow, Apple just lost a potential life long customer. My daughter is trying to sell her Powerbook to buy a PC laptop.


----------



## loserOlimbs

Gibble said:


>


I'm guessing thats on a PC...


----------



## VegasACF

linskyjack said:


> I bought my daughter an Ipod and a Powerbook for her graduation and to use for college. I bought the Apple's because I swallowed the myth that somehow their computers and electronics are made better then those in the Intel/MS world. In the past year, I have had to replace two of the Ipods and now her Powerbook went on the blink (problem with the AC adapter and running without a battery---her's was recalled). I spend some time on the support and discussion sites over at Apple, and from what I can read, there is a growing backlash against the company. It appears as if as they increase their market share, their quality and support have gone down (which is the norm for any business). Even my daughter is no longer gung-ho about Apple anymore. By they way, I took Apple Care for the Ipod (because I heard they had problems) but didn't take it for the Powerbook. I figured if the Powerbook made it through the warranty period, it would be free-sailing from there.


If your experience were typical I would support your position 100%. I can assure you it is not. I've been an Apple user since before the Macintosh days, and have been a Mac user since 1984. I've never had anything remotely resembling what you describe. The only computer I ever had any problem with was a laptop, and the problem sprang from my not having given it the TLC that a computer deserved. While I wouldn't say I "abused" it, I didn't treat it "right", either. I was hard on it, and eventually it decided to quit taking it.

I suppose it's _possible_ that you've gotten two lemon iPods and a lemon PowerBook, but the odds of that, even from a lackluster manufacturer (think GM cars in the early 1980s), are astronomical. The antique media has long wanted to sound the death knell for Apple. If such events as yours were common they would be all too willing to trumpet it from the mountaintops. The fact is it's not happening.

Now, I'm _willing_ to allow the above possibility, but given the scenario you describe there seems to be one constant in the story, and it is not any of the hardware. It is, I'm sorry to say, your daughter. Now, don't misunderstand. I'm not besmirching your daughter in particular. But, let's face it, kids (even college-aged kids) don't treat things with the respect they deserve, whether those things are their bodies, their computers, their cars, their class schedules or what have you.



linskyjack said:


> Anyhow, Apple just lost a potential life long customer. My daughter is trying to sell her Powerbook to buy a PC laptop.


Well, that's your (and her) choice. I predict you'll (and she'll) have similar results from whatever brand is her next computer (and mp3 player).

:shrug:


----------



## jp1203

An Apple-branded USB cable just destroyed my flash drive. It was so darn tight it yanked the chip right out of the casing. I was able to get the stuff off of it, but I sure don't trust it as much as I used to.


----------



## Omega_Shadow

linskyjack said:


> I bought my daughter an Ipod and a Powerbook for her graduation and to use for college. I bought the Apple's because I swallowed the myth that somehow their computers and electronics are made better then those in the Intel/MS world. In the past year, I have had to replace two of the Ipods and now her Powerbook went on the blink (problem with the AC adapter and running without a battery---her's was recalled). I spend some time on the support and discussion sites over at Apple, and from what I can read, there is a growing backlash against the company. It appears as if as they increase their market share, their quality and support have gone down (which is the norm for any business). Even my daughter is no longer gung-ho about Apple anymore. By they way, I took Apple Care for the Ipod (because I heard they had problems) but didn't take it for the Powerbook. I figured if the Powerbook made it through the warranty period, it would be free-sailing from there.
> 
> Anyhow, Apple just lost a potential life long customer. My daughter is trying to sell her Powerbook to buy a PC laptop.


That sounds consistent with what I hear from other Mac owners (not Mac fanatics that blame the user for everything because the company is infallible  ). I would suggest looking at an IBM. They make very nice professional grade laptops. Though I would suggest you try a Linux OS with your next laptop. If your daughter likes the look and feel of a Mac OS then install a Linux Distro with a Gnome Desktop enviroment. Much more stable then windows yet has the user friendly Mac type GUI. Can't go wrong


----------



## VegasACF

Omega_Shadow said:


> That sounds consistent with what I hear from other Mac owners (not Mac fanatics that blame the user for everything because the company is infallible  ).


Oh. Gee. It burns. Make it stop. Ouch. Really.

Show me where I ever said such a thing as "Apple is infallible" and I'll give you a shiny new nickel. Go ahead. Try. That said, this isn't the first time that he's come here complaining about his daughter's hardware. I suspect this girl is not giving the computer (and it matters not what brand of computer it is, the treatment will the same, as will the results) that a computer deserves. I think the odds are pretty close to 1:1 that it's a DFO problem.

Now you can try to bad mouth me, and try to bad mouth all things Apple, but given your apparent phobia of them and obvious lack of experience with them, I'd say I'm in a far better position to give an opinion about the reliability of Apple products than are you.

Now, if you'd like to discuss another brand of computer, I'm well versed in those, as well. See, I'm not a one-platform guy. I've owned many, and currently own several Windows-based machines over the years. I'm _not_ a Linux user, and probably never will be. Frankly, for what I do, Linux isn't even an also-ran. It's a never-showed. But that's a topic for another day.

But, since you brought it up, I _do_ think Apple has problems. Al Gore being on the Board is one. Steve Jobs being a proto-Marxist is another. And the fact that they just keep making damned good products that I want to buy is probably the worst problem they have (for me, anyway).

But you're welcome to keep talking out your *** about things you know nothing about. You seem to do it rather well.


----------



## Osojojo

I think MACs look pretty awesome (I like the sleek white color), but dad says user friendliness is overrated and for babies.


----------



## Omega_Shadow

VegasACF seems to forget that I have him on ignore  Its this wonderful option that lets me know he posted but hides the actual nonsense of his post. Now I am kind of guessing now that that last post was aimed toward me, but if he is continuing his combative behavior against anyone that does not believe in his ideals that I ended up ignoring him for in the first place then I was no doubt the target. 

So go ahead vegasACF. Spout whatever nonsense you want. I am happy to say I will not see any of it


----------



## loserOlimbs

Oh com'on OS... it was great fun... 

He spouted about your "phobia" of Macs, and then said he would never try Linux...


----------



## JEBWrench

Hey, OS, wanna help me load Linux onto an old G3 to help get over your phobia?


----------



## VegasACF

loserOlimbs said:


> Oh com'on OS... it was great fun...
> 
> He spouted about your "phobia" of Macs, and then said he would never try Linux...


Reading is fundamental. Since you seem unable to grasp things the first time around, I'll give you one more chance:



I said:


> I'm not a Linux user, and probably never will be. Frankly, for *what I do, Linux isn't even an also-ran. It's a never-showed.*


Now, if you can point to some drivers for Digidesign TDM hardware for and a stable port of Pro Tools (or an equivalent) for Linux I'll give it a try. Until then, there is no reason for me to bother with it. It won't do what I need it to do.

But thanks for playing.


----------



## Omega_Shadow

JEBWrench said:


> Hey, OS, wanna help me load Linux onto an old G3 to help get over your phobia?


Wow, didn't know I had a phobia  So that's what vegasACF is going on about. Guess I ain't missing much LMFAO  

You know I am always happy to help people out. What Distro of Linux you want to try out on that G3? I know ubuntu makes an Apple/Mac Version, but other distros can be modified to run on mac's proprietary hardware. Just a matter of research


----------



## loserOlimbs

VegasACF said:


> Reading is fundamental. Since you seem unable to grasp things the first time around, I'll give you one more chance:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Originally Posted by I
> I'm not a Linux user, and probably never will be. Frankly, for what I do, Linux isn't even an also-ran. It's a never-showed.
> 
> 
> 
> Now, if you can point to some drivers for Digidesign TDM hardware for and a stable port of Pro Tools (or an equivalent) for Linux I'll give it a try. Until then, there is no reason for me to bother with it. It won't do what I need it to do.
> 
> But thanks for playing.
Click to expand...

Linux drivers are OS's area... and with you I wouldn't even think to help, not that you'd listen or accept any help, and since OS has you blocked I'd expect even less from him.

In my experience with Linux there isn't much of anything that doesn't run on it. (It being Linux) Chances are it'll run better even, sice the drivers will be written by dozens of uber nerds, the same ones who probably wrote OS X and then headed for the hills when they realised what horrible GUI Apple had in mind for it.


----------



## JEBWrench

Omega_Shadow said:


> Wow, didn't know I had a phobia  So that's what vegasACF is going on about. Guess I ain't missing much LMFAO
> 
> You know I am always happy to help people out. What Distro of Linux you want to try out on that G3? I know ubuntu makes an Apple/Mac Version, but other distros can be modified to run on mac's proprietary hardware. Just a matter of research


Once I get my hands on one, I'll take you up on that. Still trying to purchase one from an old friend.


----------



## jp1203

I bought a PowerMac G3 Blue and White from a friend and threw a 15 and 60 GB Hard Disk in it, and installed Ubuntu. It's now my server. It can run for incredible amounts of time without issues. It's now going on three months, now if we can just avoid a power outage...


----------



## jp1203

Omega_Shadow said:


> VegasACF seems to forget that I have him on ignore  Its this wonderful option that lets me know he posted but hides the actual nonsense of his post. Now I am kind of guessing now that that last post was aimed toward me, but if he is continuing his combative behavior against anyone that does not believe in his ideals that I ended up ignoring him for in the first place then I was no doubt the target.
> 
> So go ahead vegasACF. Spout whatever nonsense you want. I am happy to say I will not see any of it


That's really neat! Now I don't have to waste time reading his nonsense.


----------



## gwendes

tedwinder said:


> It covers the design, ease of use (buttons, ports etc), Operating System, applications/programs, and stuff like that.


How can it when Mac is a manufacturer and PC is anything IBM compatible?

That's like trying to compare a Ford with any other vehicle that you can use on the road. Some 'PC' manufacturers are excellent, some are poor. Some use Windows and some don't. What is best - a Jeep or a Jag? It depends if you want to climb a muddy field or drive fast...

I hate threads like this. For all the reasons I've just given I choose PC. I make the PC, I customise the PC, I upgrade the PC.

Also, I upgraded the HDD on a friends iBook the other day and it took two HOURS!


----------



## Couriant

gwendes said:


> How can it when *Mac is a manufacturer* and PC is anything IBM compatible?...


Apple is the manufacturer


----------



## gwendes

Fair enough. My point is that the Apple hardware is standard and that PC can be anything. It's not a fair comparison like Linksys vs Netgear or Ford vs Jaguar.

When can we shoot the thread starter?


----------



## Couriant

Not for long. Apple will be starting to use Intel chips.


----------



## MSM Hobbes

Omega_Shadow said:


> That sounds consistent with what I hear from other Mac owners (not Mac fanatics that blame the user for everything because the company is infallible  ). I would suggest looking at an IBM. They make very nice professional grade laptops. Though I would suggest you try a Linux OS with your next laptop. If your daughter likes the look and feel of a Mac OS then install a Linux Distro with a Gnome Desktop enviroment. Much more stable then windows yet has the user friendly Mac type GUI. Can't go wrong


Interesting... yet:
http://arstechnica.com/journals/apple.ars/2006/8/9/4938
http://news.com.com/2100-1042-5162141.html

Yes, no company is perfect, nor is every company 'loved'. Heck, the music of Pink Floyd, Led Zep, Rush, MTB, AKUS, Dire Straits, MSB, etc. to my ears is some of the bestest, yet there are those fools that cringe at their tunes... Yes, I do overall much like what Apple has done, and is now doing. They need to be more careful with their growth spurt of late, quality vs. quantity will raise its nasty head, as it does in just about every industry experiencing such demand.

Oh, yes, the CR article is only one slice of the very bigger pie. However, it still shows how consistently Apple has been in regards to service, customer satisfaction, etc. No, they ain't perfect, but, overall, they do [in the eyes of many of us] a durn good job of design and manufacturing. As to their 'simplicity' - well, to some people, that in their eyes is a thing of beauty too.

Of course, there are many more people that prefer the PC way, and nothing wrong with that. Just gets tiring/frustrating to see/read the continuing misinformation and related BS. Heck, why don't we have a Ford vs. Chevy thread next?   :down:


----------



## MSM Hobbes

gwendes said:


> Fair enough. My point is that the Apple hardware is standard and that PC can be anything. It's not a fair comparison like Linksys vs Netgear or Ford vs Jaguar.
> 
> When can we shoot the thread starter?


I vote we do such immediately!!! :up:

j/k... sortof...


----------



## VegasACF

MSM Hobbes said:


> Just gets tiring/frustrating to see/read the continuing misinformation and related BS. Heck, why don't we have a Ford vs. Chevy thread next?   :down:


Indeed. And that is why it is of little import whether a selected few here read, understand, respond, ignore or belittle my replies. What matters is that those who are perhaps new to the differences between the major platforms are not swayed by such mis/disinformation, or at least see an opposing viewpoint.

While the childish retorts of a dysfunctional few may carry the day in elementary school, they hold no sway for me.



MSM Hobbes said:


> I vote we do such immediately!!! :up:
> 
> j/k... sortof...


Seconded.


----------



## tedwinder

Shoot me! How do you shoot people virually?


----------



## Couriant

tedwinder said:


> Shoot me! How do you shoot people virually?


I think that would be some kind of germ warfare...


----------



## VegasACF

I often shoot people _virtually_ in online FPS games. As far as "virually" goes, I couldn't tell you.


----------



## remaja

I'm sure this has been brought up before.
I saw an ad for an Apple computer and I found out the they have 16gb of RAM.
Now this really amazes me
how did do that? they have 16 Ram slots on the mobo?
Why do they need 16gig of RAM? I mean that is more than anyone ever need.


----------



## hewee

The Mac Pro has two memory cards that each has 4 slots. So a total of 8 slots.

This is long and many pages but it tells you a lot about the Mac Pro.

http://www.anandtech.com/mac/showdoc.aspx?i=2811&p=1

and this here too.

http://www.anandtech.com/mac/showdoc.aspx?i=2816&p=1
Lots of great picture here too.

But on the Dell Precision 690 Workstation you can get up to Up to 64GB of memory.

The total amount of usable memory available will be less, depending on the actual system configuration. To utilize more than 4GB of memory requires a 64-bit OS. To expand memory to more than 32GB requires a Dell Precision 690 1KW system with memory risers.

So it is the Windows 64 bit that lets you have more memory.


----------



## Couriant

remaja said:


> Why do they need 16gig of RAM? I mean that is more than anyone ever need.


I take it you haven't done any graphical or video work


----------



## hewee

Funny when I got my old IBM Aptiva that had a 3.1 GB drive and then I added a 6.4 GB drive I was told by so many that I will never be able to use all the space.


----------



## Couriant

LIke that old saying... 64kb will be enough...

right....


----------



## JEBWrench

Tidus4Yuna said:


> LIke that old saying... 64kb will be enough...
> 
> right....


64k is all I've ever needed.

Want is a different story.


----------



## hewee

Oh yea and that big 2 MB video card I had was super at the time too.


----------



## jp1203

I remember when we got the old Dell for 1200$ it had a 10 GB HD, 800 MHz P-III and 64 MB RAM. People said it was totally extravagant. By the time it had died I put a 60 GB HDD and 384 MB RAM into it. 

One of the IBMs I'm using came with a 6 GB HDD and 64 MB RAM (600 MHz P-III). It was a 2500$ machine in its day. Now I've upped it to a 40 GB HDD and 640 MB RAM. I will say I bet it performs better than some of the low-budget machines today. 

My other IBM hasn't been upgraded much (2 GHz P-4). I bumped the RAM from 256 to 512, and added an NVidia GeForce 256 32MB AGP4X but that's about it.

My server had 64 MB RAM and a 6 GB HDD. I put the RAM to 640 MB and gave it a 60 GB and 15 GB HDD and put the much better Ubuntu on it (It had Mac OS9)


----------



## remaja

Tidus4Yuna said:


> I take it you haven't done any graphical or video work


I'm in college taking Advertising
I'm not in a pure graphic design class. therefore most of my design classes are using PC based Adobes. 
Personally, I prefer using the PC to do GD in comparison to using the MAC. I have tried it before and it is just something I'm not used to.


----------



## tedwinder

What programs did you use on the Mac? Photoshop, InDesign and QuarkXPress ae good.


----------



## hewee

JStergis said:


> I remember when we got the old Dell for 1200$ it had a 10 GB HD, 800 MHz P-III and 64 MB RAM. People said it was totally extravagant. By the time it had died I put a 60 GB HDD and 384 MB RAM into it.
> 
> One of the IBMs I'm using came with a 6 GB HDD and 64 MB RAM (600 MHz P-III). It was a 2500$ machine in its day. Now I've upped it to a 40 GB HDD and 640 MB RAM. I will say I bet it performs better than some of the low-budget machines today.
> 
> My other IBM hasn't been upgraded much (2 GHz P-4). I bumped the RAM from 256 to 512, and added an NVidia GeForce 256 32MB AGP4X but that's about it.
> 
> My server had 64 MB RAM and a 6 GB HDD. I put the RAM to 640 MB and gave it a 60 GB and 15 GB HDD and put the much better Ubuntu on it (It had Mac OS9)


Wow your old IBM was cheap. I had the Aptiva P-200 MHz, 32 MB EDO memory and a 2 MB video. The max on memory was 112 MB and it was shared with the video so it was hard to upgrade. Plus it cost way to much to buy ram but I got more from my sister after she got a new PC. But I got the Aptiva 2159-S78 when it just came out and I think it was $3,800.00 but I had 90 days to price match it so got back about $600.00. 
Look what you can get today for what it costed you back then. :up:


----------



## Couriant

tedwinder said:


> What programs did you use on the Mac? Photoshop, InDesign and QuarkXPress ae good.


I concur. I use Photoshop, QuarkXPress and Freehand MX.


----------



## jp1203

hewee said:


> Wow your old IBM was cheap. I had the Aptiva P-200 MHz, 32 MB EDO memory and a 2 MB video. The max on memory was 112 MB and it was shared with the video so it was hard to upgrade. Plus it cost way to much to buy ram but I got more from my sister after she got a new PC. But I got the Aptiva 2159-S78 when it just came out and I think it was $3,800.00 but I had 90 days to price match it so got back about $600.00.
> Look what you can get today for what it costed you back then. :up:


Yeah, even though it was still a lot, considering you can get a new IBM for around 1200. You could get a Celeron Dell Dimension for 300! My IBM has been upgraded extensively:

Came With -Put In
13.5 GB Matrox HD -40 GB Western Digital HD
128 MB PC133 RAM -A stick of 512 MB PC133 RAM, giving it 640. It can go up to a gig.
8 MB Matrox G400 -32 MB NVidia Riva TNT2
48X CDROM -16X DVD-ROM and 32X CD-RW
3Com 10 MBit -Generic 100 MBit card
Onboard ESS Allegro -128-bit Creative SB PCI

All of which I had laying around (except the RAM)


----------



## jp1203

By the way:

For Graphics work I primarily use the GIMP.

Desktop Publishing-Scribus

I prefer photoshop to GIMP, but it's too darn expensive.

Scribus is my favorite out of all DP apps.


----------



## hewee

Well now I am not going to upgrade this AMD 1800 but going to get a all new PC.
Still can not make up my mind but I will get a pre-built Workstation from Alienware or a Apple Mac Pro and I know it will be about $3,000 to $4,000 but it will be a lot of PC that will sure out do the one I have now. 
Just a faster FSB, cpu, ram and SATA will all be faster so it will not be like just getting a faster cpu this time with more memory but faster everything.


----------



## Stoner

Interesting statistics on market share comparisons:

http://marketshare.hitslink.com/report.aspx?qprid=5

Windows XP market share increasing while OSX is declining.


----------



## Couriant

Stoner said:


> Interesting statistics on market share comparisons:
> 
> http://marketshare.hitslink.com/report.aspx?qprid=5
> 
> Windows XP market share increasing while OSX is declining.


yeah, real fair when you are comparing 5 Microsoft's products to one Mac. 

Anyways it looks like it's more of when someone goes to their site, it registers what OS you are using. I think that's how the numbers come about. I use both OSs. But if I'm right then the poll is illrelevent because it doesn't show the true number.


----------



## Gibble

Tidus4Yuna said:


> yeah, real fair when you are comparing 5 Microsoft's products to one Mac.
> 
> Anyways it looks like it's more of when someone goes to their site, it registers what OS you are using. I think that's how the numbers come about. I use both OSs. But if I'm right then the poll is illrelevent because it doesn't show the true number.


Yeah...it's skewed in favour of MacOS.

Since it combines ALL MacOS products under one grouping, thus inflating it, while seperating the MS products, thus deflating the MS OS total.


----------



## MSM Hobbes

Stoner said:


> Interesting statistics on market share comparisons:
> 
> http://marketshare.hitslink.com/report.aspx?qprid=5
> 
> Windows XP market share increasing while OSX is declining.


Couple things...

1. Regarding this 'data':


> This report lists the market share of the top operating systems in use. This data is derived by aggregating the traffic across our network of websites that use our service.


 So, is by measuring traffic across their network, this gives a clear, accurate picture of the actual operating systems in use and/or being purchased?  Me thinks not... 

2. Interesting article, albiet somewhat dated - would also like to see the raw data, but nevertheless:


> Last year Apple sold 4.7 million Macs, up 35 percent from 2004, and way ahead of the 16 percent growth for the industry as a whole during the same period.


 http://www.ecommercetimes.com/story/51932.html


----------



## Stoner

I can't find any good figures on monthly sales, but I did find an annual sales figure represented as market share at News.com.
Market share, now, not sales increases or declines....just market share as I first posted, Mac does not appear to have fared as well as in my first post based on traffic count.
The sales figure (market share) for Mac in 2005 was 3.3%

Read it here: Link


----------



## thelamecoolguy

Mac all the way.

Why? Check out: www.apple.com/getamac


----------



## gwendes

tedwinder said:


> See! Even you are admitting that PC's quality is rubbish.
> 
> Right. The design. Would you say that the PC or an iMac looks better?


I'd have an Alienware over any Mac notebook. They are beautiful.

As for a PC, I have a mock G4 case with lots of lovely PC components. I agree that it is beautiful but I was on a budget and my ideal case would be a rack and rackmount case. It's a matter of taste.

*Again though you are missing the point. You cannot compare PC with Mac (Apple).*

Apple is a company that make a specific range of products. Mac is one of those products.

PC is not a company nor a product. It is the name given to almost any computer.

It is as fair as saying (here comes another example) would you prefer a Sony or a DVD player? It doesn't make sense.


----------



## Couriant

Anyone seen the newer Mac commercial, with 'PC' in disguise? Hilarious.


----------



## VegasACF

gwendes said:


> *Again though you are missing the point. You cannot compare PC with Mac (Apple).*


Yes, yes, this point has been made and made and made, ad nauseam, and the originator of the thread has been _thoroughly_ excoriated and dipped in isopropyl alcohol, followed by a generous rolling in alum.

But thanks for taking a page out of tedwinder's notebook and reiterating the reiterated.

Now, once and for all...


----------



## Stoner

I don't know, Vegas.....If the thread hadn't continued, I wouldn't have seen the cute/funny commercials that Apple does.
So it's not all 'bad'


----------



## VegasACF

And, hey, I got to use some of my ever-so-witty forum-related jpgs (though I've had to be careful--a lot of the ones in my stable are of the NSFW variety [b/c of language]).

Still...

If this thread doesn't die I'm going to










And, for good measure, here's one of these:










Yeah, I don't know, either. It makes me smile, though. Something this thread has long since ceased to do...


----------



## tedwinder

VegasACF said:


> Yes, yes, this point has been made and made and made, ad nauseam, and the originator of the thread has been _thoroughly_ excoriated and dipped in isopropyl alcohol, followed by a generous rolling in alum.
> 
> But thanks for taking a page out of tedwinder's notebook and reiterating the reiterated.


OK. Matter settled. Macs are good for things like websites, photo albums, calenders, podcasts etc, and PC's are good for spreadsheets, office documents and applications that won't run on Mac.

P.S - The isopropyl alcohol hurt the most.


----------



## tedwinder




----------



## Stoner

tedwinder said:


> OK. Matter settled. Macs are good for things like websites, photo albums, calenders, podcasts etc, and PC's are good for spreadsheets, office documents and applications that won't run on Mac.
> 
> ...............................


It's rather obvious from the small market share that Apple captures, the general public and most businesses feel a PC hardware platform running Windows is more useful than a Mac 
Sorry Ted, you lose again 

BTW, I recently dumped 98se for use on my primary Internet connection.
Kept the same machine, Dell Optiplex GX110 P3 800, but upgraded to Win2K......sweet running machine 
In a bit over 1 year of being online with 98se on that machine, not once did I get infected by any kind of malware and I never bought any apps for protection other than a firewall and I bought it almost 7 years ago..........

My Dell cost $30 about a year and a half ago 
So, how much money have you dumped into your Mac?.................


----------



## VegasACF

tedwinder: I told you about a month ago not to use _my_ Photobucket account. Get your own.


----------



## Stoner

How embarrassing for Ted 
And a graphics designer at that .........LOL!


----------



## tedwinder

It's on a public domain - right-click on one of your images and you've got the web address!


----------



## Gibble

Ted, the point is, he has bandwidth limits...and by linking to pictures on HIS account, you're cutting into those.

Quit being so lazy, and setup your own account.


----------



## tedwinder

Ok, I won't do it any more - I wasn't intending to though....


----------



## VegasACF

tedwinder said:


> Ok, I won't do it any more - I wasn't intending to though....


Regardless of your intentions (the road to Hell is paved with good ones, mind you), your understanding of "public domain" is severely lacking. This is a term of art in the law, and your misunderstanding of it is _no_ (legal) excuse. I seriously suggest a course in intellectual property.

I will take your "apology" (though I had to read between the lines to find it) at face value, but rest assured I will monitor access to my account. If I find you are abusing it I will most assuredly shut it down. I have plenty of bandwidth elsewhere, over which I have far more control. Count yourself lucky I didn't choose to make the image (and bandwidth) you "borrowed" make you look far worse than simply being called out for being a bandwidth "borrower" (and those two words in quotation marks are being used in the _most marginal_ of ways, I assure you).

All you have to do to circumvent this is create your own account and upload whatever images you wish to it as you find them. As Gibble said, don't be lazy. You profess to be a graphics person. I'm sure that as a result of your vast experience you've had occasion to save images to your hard drive. Just point photobucket's image loading scheme toward them and you'll be all set. Put your skills to some use. Don't usurp _mine_.


----------



## Couriant

Vegas, chill out  he apologised... no need for 3 long paragraphed sentence. Be done and move on


----------



## VegasACF

Tidus4Yuna said:


> Vegas, chill out  he apologised...


_Did_ he?



tedwinder said:


> It's on a public domain - right-click on one of your images and you've got the web address!





tedwinder said:


> Ok, I won't do it any more - I wasn't intending to though....


I don't see an apology (that's why I had to assume an implied one in my reply).



Tidus4Yuna said:


> no need for 3 long paragraphed sentence. Be done and move on


When someone oversteps their bounds with _you_ I'll be supportive of your right to let him know about it. I expect the same from you.


----------



## tedwinder

VegasACF said:


> I don't see an apology (that's why I had to assume an implied one in my reply).


Sorry - OK?


----------



## VegasACF

Yeah. I guess.


----------



## firestormer

PC 

More software currently availiable.

I also dont like the way itunes/ipod/apple limits where u can get music form and what software you have to use with ipods. Then again to an extend microsoft does this but at least they give you a choice of online stores in media player.

Ok ive gone of thread a bit but just take that last paragraph as an example of all Apple products and hence MAC.

Thus GO PC!


----------



## VegasACF

firestormer said:


> More software currently availiable.


More doesn't always equal better, mind you. One of the frequent complaints that there aren't as many games available on the Mac side of the aisle. My answer to this is that there are myriad games available on the console platforms, but only a few that are worthy of my time (because of my particular tastes, horrible coding, unworkable mechanics, et cetera). The games that are _truly_ worth playing (the Half Life series being a supremely notable exception) make it to the Mac. Sure, they don't show up at the same time as the Windows version, but usually that means Mac users get the advantages of bug fixes and expansions that come out after the initial release across the aisle.

So, too, is the case outside the realm of games. For the most part, all "industry standard" software (Office, for example) is available for the Mac OS. In fact, in my experience (which is, granted, that of a relatively small swath of the coding world), the software that is (or is to become) the industry standard _originates_ on the Mac. Such is certainly the case in desktop publishing (Quark, Photoshop, Illustrator) and audio/video prodcution (Pro Tools, Avid, Performer/Digital Performer). These are, admittedly, the areas where the Mac OS has excelled, and in a lot of cases these same titles are now available on the Windows side (Performer/Digital Performer being a notable exception).

Such may not be the case in CAD or database programs, which, again admittedly, may make up a far larger cross section of the sales of computers and software. To that end, however, there isn't any software available (that I'm aware of) for Windows that I cannot run on this Intel-based Mac that I am currently using. Yes, this is a continental shift in availability of software for a machine with the Apple brand, but it hasn't meant that I had the need to go out and purchase vast quantities of software that were previously unavailable to me. In fact, all it has meant was that I was able to avail myself of the Windows versions of software that were identical to software I already had on the Mac (I wanted to have Word on both platforms for ease of transition).

The major exception to this is that I was finally able to take my law school finals on computer (rather than with pen and ink) because the software was Windows only. Though I would have been entirely able to run the selected software on my previous Macs, but because I would, in theory, be able to force quit the Windows environment, reboot into the Mac OS and, again in theory, be able to get on the Internet to "find answers" to the questions posed in my exams (an altogether silly notion, given the time constraints in these exams), only to somehow remember what I had been able to glean and impart this newfound wisdom into the exam software in the Windows OS. It didn't matter that the code of ethics to which I had to swear allegiance upon enrollment into the school would not permit me to do such a thing. Macs simply weren't allowed. I pointed out to the head of the IT department and to the deans that a Windows user with an installation of Linux would be able to do the _exact_ same thing. Thankfully, with the advent of Intel-based Macs (and my requisition thereof) this has become a non-issue, though I was prepared to fight this pretextual argument against Macs all throughout my law school career, if need be. I had made little recognizable headway in the previous two years, and would have gotten little farther in furthering my argument in my remaining year, but perhaps I would have planted the seeds of doubt. If nothing else, I might have been successful in having all computer-based testing outlawed, so as to level the playing field among those that were forced to write because of their choice of OS, as opposed to those who could type their exams (you can cover a lot more ground when typing than when writing, mind you). But this has been, in my considerable computing experience, the only instance where Windows had anything resembling a significant edge over the Mac OS.



firestormer said:


> I also dont like the way itunes/ipod/apple limits where u can get music form and what software you have to use with ipods.


So use whatever application you wish to get your music (other than the Beatles and the few other offerings which Apple has been thus far unable to create an agreement to acquire), use it to burn a CD and import the CD into iTunes to get it on your iPod. The reasons for these hoops through which you have to jump are legal and are not the fault of Apple. U.S. federal copyright laws are quite broad and offer large remedies to those who are harmed, even if the harm was unintentional. While I understand your misgivings, Apple has to protect its hindquarters, and this is a direct result of the statutory scheme that applies to copyrightable materials.



firestormer said:


> Then again to an extend microsoft does this but at least they give you a choice of online stores in media player.


I'll have to take your word on this. But I wonder if the agreements Microsoft has created with these outlets covers the panoply offered by the one location Apple offers. I'd rather have almost everything offered by one outlet than have to jump around to several different locales to fulfill my musical desires.



firestormer said:


> Ok ive gone of thread a bit but just take that last paragraph as an example of all Apple products and hence MAC.


Which may be akin to using the term "PC" to mean all Windows-based computers. If using "PC" for all Windows machines is exceptional, then using Mac to mean all Apple products is likewise so. All Macs are Apple products, but not all Apple products are Macs (note that it's not in ALL CAPS, either). All squares are rectangles, but not all rectangles are squares. Regardless, I understand what you are saying. And I hope the above missive is taken in that light.



firestormer said:


> Thus GO PC!


As I have oft said in these fora, and elsewhere, use whatever works best for you and don't denigrate others for their choices. Be open to the arguments of either side, and take them for what they're worth. If there is a counter to an argument (whether that argument is pro-Mac or pro-Windows) take the time to understand it and use it to your benefit.


----------



## SouthParkXP101

people say the mac is better for malwareETC.

well maybe it is.....

but i know how to use HJT and remove my viruses, and i dont get hardly any viruses i havent got one on all but one pc in years.

id rather go with the better performing , more advance, more user friendly COMPUTER not no mac junk
id rather have a pc , i had a mac a few years ago will never go back , biggest waste of time and money


----------



## VegasACF




----------



## SouthParkXP101

VegasACF said:


>


nice set of smileys there....


----------



## two1361

i first used Macs, and been using PC's for years now... and i WANT a one of the new Mac Pros. but i can't afford that quite yet.


----------



## Magna Carta

Either one suits me best. Personally, I like Macs better because of their easy-to-use GUI (take that, Mac-haters!) and their great UNIX core, but I like PCs also because they can run a plethora of different software.... and I need an outlet to play my games on.


----------



## MSM Hobbes

I like a car cause I can get better performance, fuel & speed wise, hugs corners better, rides more comfortable, has more ability to travel further on one tank, and so forth...

I like a truck cause I can haul dirty/large stuff in the back, go off-roading, sit up higher for increased visibility, has more capability/capacity to move items, and so forth...

One is not necessarily better or worse than the other.

Different platforms for different needs and/or different desires/likes.

Yes, I am quite partial to Apple computers - their style, their GUI, their inate ability to be easier, less frustrating, fewer issues [malware/hardware/software/etc.], and so forth.

Yes, I use/like "PC's" - the ability to get into the code, past history of using them, some specific Wintel s/w that has been collected over the years, and so forth.

As to games, the X-box and those on the Apple or "PC" all do good for me.


----------



## gwendes

Why does this thread continue? If you lot like picking a corner and fighting it regardless of how meaningless it is then pick one of these and knock yourselves out:

Sony or a computer
Toshiba or a computer
Dell or a computer

If however, the question is MacOSX or Windows XP then we all know this is a matter of personal taste and in part down to chance (which you used first and are used to). Neither OS actually do anything really except run applications and games - Photoshop runs on both in an almost indentical way (right click would be nice) and the few games that are available on MacOSX run fine (again however I wouldn't mind a right-click!)

The hardware is indentical.


----------



## VegasACF

gwendes said:


> Why does this thread continue?


Probably because people keep spouting misinformation such as the "right click" thing (multi-button input devices have been supported on the Mac OS since the early 90s) and "there aren't any games" (or your variant, there are "few" games).


----------



## firestormer

VegasACF said:


> More doesn't always equal better, mind you. One of the frequent complaints that there aren't as many games available on the Mac side of the aisle. My answer t...
> 
> ...e open to the arguments of either side, and take them for what they're worth. If there is a counter to an argument (whether that argument is pro-Mac or pro-Windows) take the time to understand it and use it to your benefit.


wow wat an essay!


----------



## MSM Hobbes

firestormer said:


> wow wat an essay!


Sad that what was included in that post has to be repeated, again and again, to try to help those w/o much knowledge and/or those that just like to post misinformation. Maybe if some would take the time to read such 'essays' and other pertinent posts/articles, there wouldn't be such length to this thread and/or need to debate 'which is better'.


----------



## VegasACF

Unfortunately, all such expositions fail in the face of well-reasoned, thoughtfully-composed responses such as:



> id rather go with the better performing , more advance, more user friendly COMPUTER not no mac junk
> id rather have a pc , i had a mac a few years ago will never go back , biggest waste of time and money


----------



## Gibble

Yeah...people like that make us non-mac pc users look like idiots


----------



## MSM Hobbes

Don't worry, it doesn't take just those kinds...




j/k



Actually, unfortunately, there be people of that type (and worse) in all camps.


----------



## gwendes

VegasACF said:


> Probably because people keep spouting misinformation such as the "right click" thing (multi-button input devices have been supported on the Mac OS since the early 90s) and "there aren't any games" (or your variant, there are "few" games).


Fact: Mice with more than one button may be supported but *are not supplied*. If I'd realised that we were talking about what one machine and software or the other could do_ in theory_ then I would not have highlighted the point that you don't get a second mouse button. I should mention that you don't get a fighter jet too... Surely a company has to supply something before they get credit?

Fact: There are fewer games for Apple computers than almost any other computer. Correct me if I'm wrong... This is not a fault, the hardware does not support upgrading a graphics card and onboard is always going to be limited. Point: I just know that I'd find it much slower to edit video and play with Photoshop if someone took away my dedicated GPU.

Yes, an Apple computer (since Stevie came back) looks prettier than the average PC. And yes, most funky design companies with their hip young kids selling 'cool' would prefer a colourful computer - it does not mean that the 'lifestyle' that Apple sell is going to be the best thing for that user. Would Mr Cool be seen with an Apple if the box that held all that computery stuff was beige?

Don't get me started on the blatent misselling that is going on with the 'I'm a Mac' sh1t. Someone should buy one just to sue them... Isn't there some sort of law against lying?


----------



## MSM Hobbes

gwendes said:


> Fact: Mice with more than one button may be supported but *are not supplied*. If I'd realised that we were talking about what one machine and software or the other could do_ in theory_ then I would not have highlighted the point that you don't get a second mouse button. I should mention that you don't get a fighter jet too... Surely a company has to supply something before they get credit?


Ummmmm,,, while the one-button mouse may be the default mouse supplied w/ a new Apple, that does not mean that someone can not acquire a two-button mouse, even from Apple, even when that person is ordering their machine. All companies have their basic stuff, and then a person can modify their order, get different options. So, yes, they are/can be supplied... so, what is your point?

http://store.apple.com/1-800-MY-APP...ore.woa/wo/0.RSLID?find=mouse&btn.x=0&btn.y=0



> Fact: There are fewer games for Apple computers than almost any other computer. Correct me if I'm wrong... This is not a fault, the hardware does not support upgrading a graphics card and onboard is always going to be limited. Point: I just know that I'd find it much slower to edit video and play with Photoshop if someone took away my dedicated GPU.


So what? There are fewer games for 'this console' vs. 'that console'. 
As to upgrading the g/c - you sure about that? http://www.apple.com/macpro/graphics.html 



> Yes, an Apple computer (since Stevie came back) looks prettier than the average PC. And yes, most funky design companies with their hip young kids selling 'cool' would prefer a colourful computer - it does not mean that the 'lifestyle' that Apple sell is going to be the best thing for that user. Would Mr Cool be seen with an Apple if the box that held all that computery stuff was beige?


Dunno... I really like the G4 style much more better than the applegrater. 

As to looks, guess that is in the eye of the beholder - and if that person desires the visual aspect to be part of the overall package, besides performance and/or quality and/or capability, for any device. Heck, I could care less what a washing machine looks like, just get my muddy duds clean - yet, how many sales are made cause this or that machine looks better? 



> Don't get me started on the blatent misselling that is going on with the 'I'm a Mac' sh1t. Someone should buy one just to sue them... Isn't there some sort of law against lying?


Its called advertising... not that its right/wrong. But, it can be funny/entertaining. 
Bugwiper [Budweiser] calls themselves the king of beers - heck, I can't stand that swill. Yet, their ads are year after year winners :up:. Same goes for Corona - which is about the worst Mexican beer made, IMHO; yet their ads are quite 

As to our friends from Washington state...  
http://daringfireball.net/2002/10/microsoft_makeup
http://digg.com/linux_unix/listen_to_microsoft_s_lies_against_linux_

But, seriously, yes there are laws, "truth in advertising":
http://www.ftc.gov/bcp/conline/pubs/buspubs/ad-faqs.htm
However, need to have the $$$ and the complaints and the legal bs and the inertia of the gov't...


----------



## Couriant

Also there is a, as PC users would say, a right click menu. The only difference is the button is on the keyboard.

Sheezhh whining about the mouse.. so immature....


----------



## VegasACF

gwendes said:


> Fact: Mice with more than one button may be supported but *are not supplied*. If I'd realised that we were talking about what one machine and software or the other could do_ in theory_ then I would not have highlighted the point that you don't get a second mouse button. I should mention that you don't get a fighter jet too... Surely a company has to supply something before they get credit?


Fact: Your information is, sadly, but not unexpectedly, out of date. Apple computers (that ship with mice) ship with a _no_-button mouse, that "intuitively" knows, via touch-sensitivity, where you're clicking and acts accordingly. This includes your beloved "right-click" as well as myriad other clicking options.

Query: Even if Apple _did_ still ship a single-button mouse, how often have you opened up a new computer, used the mouse that came with it and said to yourself, "Self, I _really_ like this mouse. It's _far_ better an input device than _anything_ I could purchase separately!"? My guess would be fewer than you could count on one finger. Personally, I prefer trackballs, as my studio is littered with instruments and input devices that take up desk space, so being able to do everything from a static position is far preferable to even a mouse that God would have made. I never held this against Dell or Compaq or IBM (all manufacturers of computers I've had the pleasure of owning and using). Why should I hold this against Apple? And, frankly, ergonomically, the Apple mice have been the best, even though I _did_ eschew them for input devices that better fit my style of work (the "puck" mice that shipped with the first iMacs are a _most_ noteworthy exception--horrible design from an ergonomic viewpoint, regardless of its aesthetic beauty).

Next?



gwendes said:


> Fact: There are fewer games for Apple computers than almost any other computer. Correct me if I'm wrong... This is not a fault, the hardware does not support upgrading a graphics card and onboard is always going to be limited. Point: I just know that I'd find it much slower to edit video and play with Photoshop if someone took away my dedicated GPU.


Fact: My Intel-based MacBook Pro can run every game that's available for _your_ Windows machine _plus_ the games that are available only for the Mac platform.

Even were this not the case, your original post (you'll find I tend to hold people to their words, as I expect people to do to me) said there were "few games available on MacOSX [sic]." This is wholly different from "fewer" games. "Few", as defined by the _Random House Unabridged Dictionary, © Random House, Inc. 2006_, means "not many, but more than one," or "amounting to a small number". I can go to Fry's or CompUSA or go online and find more Mac OS-compatible games than I could ever care to play, let alone afford to purchase. Please say what you mean and mean what you say.

In any case...

End result: Net advantage Mac. Windows games plus Mac OS X games > Windows games.

Next?



gwendes said:


> Yes, an Apple computer (since Stevie came back) looks prettier than the average PC. And yes, most funky design companies with their hip young kids selling 'cool' would prefer a colourful computer - it does not mean that the 'lifestyle' that Apple sell is going to be the best thing for that user. Would Mr Cool be seen with an Apple if the box that held all that computery stuff was beige?


For more than half their existence Macs _were_ beige, and the "cool kids" were using them. Of course, they were the kids who were doing "cool things" with their computers, too, such as desktop publishing and music production, so that might have factored into the equation.



gwendes said:


> Don't get me started on the blatent misselling that is going on with the 'I'm a Mac' *[expletive deleted]*. Someone should buy one just to sue them... Isn't there some sort of law against lying?


Nice filter dodge there. Isn't that a violation of the forum rules (specifically the "Category III Offenses" regarding profanity)? I wish people could make their points without resorting to such tactics. Mind you, _I_ won't report you, as I'm sure you're just flustered at having your arguments so soundly refuted, but that doesn't mean _someone_ won't, or that one of the "powers that be" here in these fora won't happen across your post and decide to take action against you (which, according to the rules, amounts to "one strike you're out"). I sincerely hope you're able to avoid such happenstance.

But I digress. I guess you haven't read this thread. It's okay. I'm getting used to smashing back the same tired overhead lobs time and time and time again. There _is_ a law against dishonest, deceptive advertising. And Apple's ads come nowhere _close_ to the line. At _worst_ the Apple ads would be considered "puffery" by the FTC and the courts, which is not actionable in any way, in any court (though if you want to waste your money on filing fees, by all means). If Apple were to make a statement such as, "More consumers prefer our computers to all the other brands", then they had best be able to substantiate the contention, but none of their ads say anything of that ilk.

If you think Apple doesn't have a _crack_ legal team checking out every one of their ads to ensure compliance with the United States Codes you're off in your own little world in a far off quadrant of the Universe, and this response will take _years_ to reach you.

Next?

[Edit: typo in ¶ 4, sentence three]


----------



## Couriant

lol Vegas, you don't hold back huh


----------



## VegasACF

It doesn't help that I type about 100 words per minute and am a third year law student, so I am always thinking of counter-arguments.


----------



## Couriant

ahh that will explain it then  what type of law?


----------



## VegasACF

Not to go too far afield of this little 750+ post badminton match that I've been participating in, but...

I don't honestly know... I thought I knew what I _didn't_ want to do when I entered into law school. But since that time I have been working in a firm that does all the things I found so distasteful (family law, criminal defense, probate), and I have to admit I find them challenging and rewarding.

I guess I'll do whatever sort of law the firm that hires me does, once I graduate in May of '07. Or I'll hang out my own shingle and take the cases that walk through the door. I don't relish the latter thought, but am willing and able to do so, should the need arise.

Most State Bars do not specialize in particular areas (though there are exceptions), so most schools give a "well-rounded" approach to the curricula. My wife, child and I will be moving back toward your neck of the woods once I graduate (to Tennessee, where the bulk of my family lives), and TN does not specialize.

In any case, I will _not_ be one of those ambulance chasers you see advertised on the TV.


----------



## Couriant

umm I'm in VA... 

Good luck with your remainder of the year  I was asking because I had a question which I couldn't answer 100% and was looking for a second opinion


----------



## VegasACF

Yes. Virginia is the state immediately to the north and east of Tennessee, with a common border of about 100 miles.  Same "neck of the woods" when you're moving from 2,000 miles away.

As for your question, I'm sorry, but I am legally proscribed from giving "legal advice" (and getting caught so doing would prohibit my even _sitting_ for a bar exam, as it is considered a fairly big deal to practice law without a license). All I can do is give "legal information", and your best bet for that would be to contact the bar association of Virginia and have them recommend an attorney. Most of the time such consultations are available at a reduced price. I wish I could help, but I'd rather not jeopardize your situation or my future!


----------



## gwendes

@VegasACF:
You are clearly passionate about Apple believe that they produce a company worthy of you money. I do not believe that they provide a good value, high quality product worthy of my hard earned cash for a number of reasons but highlighting these so that you can write down why you disagree is pointless.

All I will say is that if you _can_ build a computer I see no reason why you would not. You choose if you want high quality, high performance components or low cost budget components. If you want to generate high frame rates on the latest games you have that option. You choose a case that meets your requirements. You can choose to run a Windows or *nix based operating system. You choose peripherals without the restriction of 'is it Apple compatible'.

When I'm spending my money I like choice, feel free to have Apple choose for you - maybe one day you'll be able to get exactly what_ you _would have selected.


----------



## VegasACF

gwendes said:


> All I will say is that if you _can_ build a computer I see no reason why you would not. You choose if you want high quality, high performance components or low cost budget components. If you want to generate high frame rates on the latest games you have that option. You choose a case that meets your requirements. You can choose to run a Windows or *nix based operating system. You choose peripherals without the restriction of 'is it Apple compatible'.


The only answer to this that I feel is necessary on _this_ point (since my responses above were _completely_ sidestepped, so I assume a response was waived) is the following:

Build me a computer that will:

(a) recognize the tens of thousands of dollars' worth of Pro Tools TDM hardware that I have; 
(b) allow me to use said hardware from within the applications that are the industry standards in the field: Pro Tools and Digital Performer; and
(b) keep me from having to reinvest the tens of thousands of dollars worth of software plug-ins that operate from within the above host applications;

And I'll consider using it for that very purpose.

Sadly, you cannot. My hardware is not recognized by anything _other_ than Mac OS 9.X and Pro Tools 5.X (yes, this is somewhat dated hardware, but given the fact that I've got approximately $150,000 invested in this hard/software that would cost at _least_ half that much to "upgrade" to something that will (perhaps--though having set up Pro Tools systems for clients on NT and XP and seeing firsthand the horrendous problems that this entails I'm more than a bit suspect of compatibility with the "run of the mill" "build-it-yourself" Windows box's compatibility, let alone buying a top-of-the-line IBM Intellistation with all the bells and whistles factory-installed) run on either platform.



gwendes said:


> When I'm spending my money I like choice, feel free to have Apple choose for you - maybe one day you'll be able to get exactly what_ you _would have selected.


Wow. Passive-aggressive much? You seem to think I do not choose what Apple offers, but rather, gladly accept whatever Apple feels I need. This is a common misconception on the part of your side of the aisle, and, as such, there is little need to counter it. Your entrenched ideas will, obviously, not be wrenched from your death-grip by salient points and lucid composition. C'est la guerre. Just keep on thinking whatever you want to think.

So, again, use whatever works best for you and do not denigrate others for their choices. And, above all else, _DON'T SPREAD DIS/MISINFORMATION_.

One final thought: Regardless of your interpretations (which are solely your own), I actually own more Windows machines, some of which I have built, some of which I've purchased off the shelf, than Mac OS machines. I use both with regularity, and with aplomb--there are some applications that are Windows only that I desire to use, such as Gigasampler, and having more, and diverse horsepower is always a plus in my opinion. So, color my responses however you wish, but know that the colors you apply are of your own selection, and do not reflect facts in any way.


----------



## Couriant

VegasACF said:


> Yes. Virginia is the state immediately to the north and east of Tennessee, with a common border of about 100 miles.  Same "neck of the woods" when you're moving from 2,000 miles away.
> 
> As for your question, I'm sorry, but I am legally proscribed from giving "legal advice" (and getting caught so doing would prohibit my even _sitting_ for a bar exam, as it is considered a fairly big deal to practice law without a license). All I can do is give "legal information", and your best bet for that would be to contact the bar association of Virginia and have them recommend an attorney. Most of the time such consultations are available at a reduced price. I wish I could help, but I'd rather not jeopardize your situation or my future!


 gotcha about the TN/VA thing  Being british doesn't help me much here 

I was looking for legal _information_... I sent you a PM about it


----------



## tedwinder

I know this is completely off-topic, but where did you get the username from Vegas? I suppose the question should be where does everyone get their username from, but while I'm here......


----------



## Couriant

tedwinder said:


> I know this is completely off-topic, but where did you get the username from Vegas? I suppose the question should be where does everyone get their username from, but while I'm here......


hmmm make a new thread for that  would be instresting in the Random thread.

Mine's pretty obvious though


----------



## tedwinder

Good idea - thanks.


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## VegasACF

The city in which I live + my initials


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## tedwinder

Oh, right.


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## Magna Carta

What a small world, eh? I also live in Las Vegas (NV).

Eh... toastpaint.

Something that I love about Mac OS X is the smooth marriage between the open source framework of Darwin (BSD) and the commercial framework of Apple. This blend is especially great, because while you're creating the world's most beautiful painting under Adobe Photoshop, you can also be compiling GNU software at the same time.


----------



## x7turtle7x

haha..


You said "Darwin".


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## Magna Carta

x7turtle7x said:


> haha..
> 
> You said "Darwin".


Uh... okay...


----------



## VegasACF

Magna Carta said:


> x7turtle7x said:
> 
> 
> 
> haha..
> 
> You said "Darwin".
> 
> 
> 
> Uh... okay...
Click to expand...

Yeah, my first response was:

haha..

You're from _Arkansas_.

:shrug:

So, you're from Vegas, too? That's cool. And I'm guessing by your name that you've got some interest in the law? Any chance you're a student at the Boyd School of Law? I'm a 3L there (third year).


----------



## Magna Carta

VegasACF said:


> Yeah, my first response was:
> 
> haha..
> 
> You're from _Arkansas_.
> 
> :shrug:
> 
> So, you're from Vegas, too? That's cool. And I'm guessing by your name that you've got some interest in the law? Any chance you're a student at the Boyd School of Law? I'm a 3L there (third year).


Nope.  I live in Vegas, but I'm only a Freshman in high school (14), and even though I do have an interest in law, I chose the name Magna Carta because... well, for no reason.

Eh... toastpaint.


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## VegasACF

Ummm... I'm not sure I know what "toastpaint" means.


----------



## Magna Carta

It's from another message board I go to. "Toastpaint" means to return the thread to its original discussion topic.

So, to demonstrate how it works, toastpaint.


----------



## Stoner

http://www.news.com/8301-13579_3-9905095-37.html?part=rss&subj=news&tag=2547-1_3-0-20

excerpts>


> A team of security researchers has won $10,000 for hacking a MacBook Air in two minutes................





> As of the time I posted this, no one had gained control of the Vista or Ubuntu machines, but I'll update later as the results come in over the rest of the afternoon.


Thought you Mac lovers that brag about security might be interested .......................


----------



## VegasACF

Holy necro-thread, Batman!














































If you need something more to do with your time, I have a lot of recorded notes that need to be transcribed.


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## Stoner

VegasACF said:


> Holy necro-thread, Batman!
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I'll pass, but thanks for the response ............


----------



## Stoner

Just an update, the Windows and Ubuntu machines still stand uncompromised as of this article today:
http://dvlabs.tippingpoint.com/blog/2008/03/28/pwn-to-own-final-day-and-wrap-up

excerpt:


> As of today, since the Vista and Ubuntu laptops are still standing unscathed, we are now opening up the scope beyond just default installed applications on those laptops; any popular 3rd party application (as deemed "popular" by the judges) can now be installed on the laptops for a prize of $5,000 upon a successful compromise.


----------



## Gabriel

VegasACF said:


> Holy necro-thread, Batman!
> 
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Uh, DUH...I'll bet you took some time collecting, finding and loading these images


----------



## Omega_Shadow

Wow, this thread is still ALIVE? Thought someone would have the decency to close this and stop the mac-boy's whining (and perversion of fact)


----------



## VegasACF

Gabriel said:


> Uh, DUH...I'll bet you took some time collecting, finding and loading these images


Uh, yeah. I'm not sure where the "DUH," comes in, but if that's the best response you can muster, so be it.

I've been on the Internet a long time. When I find an image I like I grab it and save it. What took years to compile only took about thirty seconds to regurgitate.

...not unlike this _Thread of the Undead_.



Omega_Shadow said:


> Wow, this thread is still ALIVE? Thought someone would have the decency to close this and stop the mac-boy's whining (and perversion of fact)


I sent my trusty steed, Green Thumblike Horsey Thingy, to do that job. It seems he has failed. I must now go out to the stables and put him down.

Nah. The Green Thumblike Horsey Thingy will live to ride another day. Like today, for instance.










As for your comment about someone being a whining "mac-boy," I only have this to offer you:


----------



## Omega_Shadow

Oh yes, VegasACF. I remember you. The one and only person in my ignore list. I can't see what your saying (thankfully) but I am sure it is full of bile.


----------



## pelokwin

Mac-pc-mac-pc-mac-pc-coke-pepsi?
I did not have the year to read this whole tread but I get the jist, The Mac OS is just plan a BETTER product. For the whole time I have been using computers EVERYONE I know that uses the Win. OS has complained about it. The same CAN NOT be said about the Mac OS.
The fact that PC's are less money to own (in a small) way is offset by the need to buy $$$$ software, Pc's come with such incomplete (i.e. trial) and in most cases crappy programs, that if you want to do more then email, search the web, or listen to a CD, get ready to start shelling out the buck$. Oh and did I forget VIRUS PROTECTION!!! 
On the other hand Mac's do have hardware issues, it seems that they break with a lot less abuse.
And they do cost a lot to fix.
All that being said I pick MAC!!!!!! In the end Mac OS is better and you are getting one whole product from one place, not a Win. OS, a Dell HD, a Samsung CD/DVD op-drive and the list goes on


----------



## VegasACF

Omega_Shadow said:


> Oh yes, VegasACF. I remember you. The one and only person in my ignore list. I can't see what your saying (thankfully) but I am sure it is full of bile.


Well, I can tell you this. One of us is full of _something_.

Hint: It's not me, and it's not bile.

Have a blessed day!


----------



## Serge_N_Gin

I use both Windows & Mac PC'z ... they're both extremely useful .... I've taught them to respect each other and they mostly play nicely.


----------



## kylake

I think someone implied I was crazy. But I run both platforms and Mac the sawtooth mac I have has crashed more than any pc I have ever owned including Win 95 machine way back when.
The new Macs do come loaded....and you pay for it. I really don't see the cost difference problem mentioned by Stoner.....he must be stoned.
You can get free applications for most software for a pc and pay out the nose for the same software on a mac.
Just ran into an issue with the APC unit I own for the mac. If you want to fix the problem put it on a windows machine (the software provided for mac is inadequate for sensitivity adjustment) adjust the sensitivity on the windows machine and return it to the mac and the problem is fixed.

That is the whole problem with mac......no one writes the software or drivers for several products because they have such a small imprint on the market....another example......belkin serial to usb.......works fine on windows......no driver for mac.......I have owned this for two years....still no driver for mac and communicate with them for the fix......there is no fix because of the small market footprint!!

I use a windows machine every day at work.......loaded. 8 brower windows open.....two spreadsheets......ticket system.....4 notepads......outlook mail with two seperate inbox and archive and 4 seperate folders.....
It doesn't crash and it has been up and running for over a year with only a shutdown over the weekend......
Sorry Stoner but you are full of it
Anti virus probelm? Free antivirus program for windows and you have a selection....
Now that iPhone is out....Safari is getting attacked.......Got a free anti for Mac???


----------



## pvc_

how come apples doesnt host its web site on a mac machine if macs are so cool? their risc architecture can't handle it?


----------



## VegasACF

Oh, for the love of God, can this not end?

Macs are built around Intel processors now. The difference that matters is the OS, not the CPU. It always has been, always will be. Apple hasn't used a RISC processor for at _least_ two years now. If you're going to _try_ to be clever, at least _try_ to be contemporaneous, too, okay?

Otherwise you just show your hand to the rest of the table.


----------



## Serge_N_Gin

*con-tem-po-ra-ne-ous*

Existing or occurring in the same period of time : _Windows OS was *contemporaneous with* Mac OS._


----------



## pvc_

Let's go back in time:

Published: March 15, 1994:

The Power Macintosh models are the first personal computers based on the new PowerPC microprocessing chip and represent a bet by Apple that a chip design called RISC -- reduced instruction set computing -- will eventually become more popular than the current standard, known as CISC -- complex instruction set computing.

http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9405E7DE103DF936A25750C0A962958260

"The difference that matters is the OS, not the CPU. It always has been, always will be. Apple hasn't used a RISC processor for at least two years now. If you're going to try to be clever, at least try to be contemporaneous, too, okay?"

It has always been and always be? Is that your genius come back? If it has always been the OS, then how come they are changing cpu's? Why don't they stay with their superior RSIC architecture?
The funny thing about mac users is that they always go out of their way to justify their reasons for using macs. It's ok, you wanna use a cute little pc with cool visual effects, and don't wanna deal with the drivers and stuff, that's understandable, but quit going around trashing PCs or whatnot. 
When it comes to PCs you can have all kinds of different brands and models of peripherals and components that determine the productivity and performance of that PC. It is plain foolish and sad to come here and claim that the difference between a PC (that once again could be built or assembled by anyone) and a mac is just the OS and "that's the way it's always been."

I admit, I don't follow the mac news and don't really care either; they're using Intel's technology….good for them.


----------



## VegasACF

pvc_ said:


> The difference that matters is the OS, not the CPU. It always has been, always will be. Apple hasn't used a RISC processor for at least two years now. If you're going to try to be clever, at least try to be contemporaneous, too, okay?
> 
> 
> 
> It has always been and always be? Is that your genius come back? If it has always been the OS, then how come they are changing cpu's? Why don't they stay with their superior RSIC architecture?
Click to expand...

You're making my point for me. Thanks. The architecture of the CPUs in Macs has changed three times since the Mac's inception. The OS has been the thing that has remained, largely, stable. Sure, the change from Pre-OS 7 to OS 7 was a big one, just as was the change from OS 9 to OS X. But the driving force behind what makes Macs what they are is NOT what's underneath the hood (though that has provided some wonderful fodder for inane posts such as yours, too). It's been the user experience. And _that_ is a result of the OS, not the hardware that runs it.



pvc_ said:


> The funny thing about mac users is that they always go out of their way to justify their reasons for using macs. It's ok, you wanna use a cute little pc with cool visual effects, and don't wanna deal with the drivers and stuff, that's understandable, but quit going around trashing PCs or whatnot.


I use both, with much success. Sorry you're so closed-minded. If only closed minds came with closed mouths.



pvc_ said:


> When it comes to PCs you can have all kinds of different brands and models of peripherals and components that determine the productivity and performance of that PC. It is plain foolish and sad to come here and claim that the difference between a PC (that once again could be built or assembled by anyone) and a mac is just the OS and "that's the way it's always been."


And, yet, it's the truth. The reason Mac users love their Mac is _not_ because what's under the hood. It's because of the experience of using the OS. You could not possibly understand this, given the fact that you...



pvc_ said:


> I admit, I don't follow the mac news and don't really care either; they're using Intel's technology….good for them.


Then pipe down, go about your business, and live your life. I don't give a rat's posterior what you use. Nor should you give such about what I, or anyone else, uses.

Now, please, for the love of God, let this thread sink back beneath the waves from whence it came before being resurrected. Some things should just die. This is one of them.


----------



## pvc_

> You're making my point for me. Thanks. The architecture of the CPUs in Macs has changed three times since the Mac's inception. The OS has been the thing that has remained, largely, stable. Sure, the change from Pre-OS 7 to OS 7 was a big one, just as was the change from OS 9 to OS X. But the driving force behind what makes Macs what they are is NOT what's underneath the hood (though that has provided some wonderful fodder for inane posts such as yours, too). It's been the user experience. And that is a result of the OS, not the hardware that runs it.


Youre not fooling a jury. Calculating performance is not done using the relative experience of the user. Just because a kid might find a clown funny, it doesnt mean the clown is the funniest force in the nature. What you are saying makes no sense whatsoever, and you have to be on crack to come up with this type of insane logic. If the hardware is not the driving force, then you should have no problem with apple making hardware with the size of your bedroom with their best OS ever, right? After all who cares about the hardware, its all about the user experience which is driven by the OSFunny Stuff!!



> And, yet, it's the truth. The reason Mac users love their Mac is not because what's under the hood. It's because of the experience of using the OS. You could not possibly understand this, given the fact that you...


The truth? What truth? Are you representing mac users, apple, or you are just a very opinionated person with too much ego and free time? Given the fact that Im what? Either man up and finish what you started, or just keep it shut.



> Now, please, for the love of God, let this thread sink back beneath the waves from whence it came before being resurrected. Some things should just die. This is one of them.


Im enjoying this thread, getting a good laugh out of it. Seems to be making your life miserable, huh!?


----------



## VegasACF

Your erection for cycles per second means little to me. I choose to use the MacOS because of the quality of the experience, not because of what's under the hood.

You cannot understand that, so there is little point in continuing this discourse. Why that ruffles your feathers I cannot, and will not, pretend to understand.

Now please let this thread sink back from whence it came.

Use whatever you want to use. More power to you.

This thread _really_ needs to be closed, once and for all.


----------



## RedHelix

Oh for crying out loud, people.

Mac vs. PCs = Automatic vs. Stick-Shift

Yes, macs are easy to use for most people. Yes, they offer a lot more to the user right out of the box. And yes, the OS is a lot harder to break than XP or Vista. But that doesn't change the fact that some people draw a better experience out of doing things the hard way.

I don't like OSX, and I drive a 5-speed manual. I gave it a fair shot and just couldn't warm up to it. I swear by Fedora Core (obviously) and I really like Vista. But at the same time, I recognize that there are users out there who would never use anything but OSX because, well, it just works for them. That's fine, but nobody can ever objectively say who has the better system because both Microsoft and Apple succeed in appeasing their target demographics. So that's that.


----------



## RedHelix

VegasACF said:


> Your erection for cycles per second means little to me. I choose to use the MacOS because of the quality of the experience, not because of what's under the hood.
> 
> You cannot understand that, so there is little point in continuing this discourse. Why that ruffles your feathers I cannot, and will not, pretend to understand.
> 
> Now please let this thread sink back from whence it came.
> 
> Use whatever you want to use. More power to you.
> 
> This thread _really_ needs to be closed, once and for all.


What he said


----------



## Cookiegal

VegasACF,

If you're not happy that this thread was revived then feel free to stay out of it.

There's no need to post inflammatory and insulting comments to others who wish to continue the discussion.


----------



## VegasACF

Cookiegal said:


> VegasACF,
> 
> If you're not happy that this thread was revived then feel free to stay out of it.
> 
> There's no need to post inflammatory and insulting comments to others who wish to continue the discussion.


I beg your pardon? _Discussion?!?_ Pray tell, where is this discussion taking place, as I'd _love_ to take part in such a thing!

Inflammatory and insulting? More so than responding _publicly_ to a private message request to close a tired, necrotic thread? I doubt it.

So many people have asked that this thread be closed that it boggles the mind it remains open. It had not had a post in it for _nearly_ a year and a half. And yet here we are, again revisiting the same old circle jerk, "Macs are better than Windows v. Windows is better than Macs" debate that will NEVER end. We'll sooner have peace between Jews and Muslims. But, hey, if you want to cast things in whatever tint your glasses give them, feel free.

If _this_ is what passes for "administrating" in these fora, then I fear my time to leave has come. Godspeed.


----------



## tomdkat

pvc_ said:


> how come apples doesnt host its web site on a mac machine if macs are so cool?


Really?

Peace...


----------



## Cookiegal

VegasACF said:


> I beg your pardon? _Discussion?!?_ Pray tell, where is this discussion taking place, as I'd _love_ to take part in such a thing!
> 
> Inflammatory and insulting? More so than responding _publicly_ to a private message request to close a tired, necrotic thread? I doubt it.
> 
> So many people have asked that this thread be closed that it boggles the mind it remains open. It had not had a post in it for _nearly_ a year and a half. And yet here we are, again revisiting the same old circle jerk, "Macs are better than Windows v. Windows is better than Macs" debate that will NEVER end. We'll sooner have peace between Jews and Muslims. But, hey, if you want to cast things in whatever tint your glasses give them, feel free.
> 
> If _this_ is what passes for "administrating" in these fora, then I fear my time to leave has come. Godspeed.


I never mentioned the private message. You've let it be known in several posts in no uncertain terms that you were not happy with this being revived and wanted it closed. Keep in mind that no one is obligated to participate in any thread and should not if they have nothing to contribute.

Let's get this back on topic please.


----------



## RedHelix

I think the point he's trying to make is that every angle this discussion could possibly take on Macs vs. PCs has already been covered, and the end result is - not surprisingly - a stalemate. Thus any further bickering about whose OS is better is just... well, stupid and pointless.

At least, I think that's what he's trying to say. If he is, then I agree.


----------



## pvc_

tomdkat, I don't know what you are trying to say with that link. Just because the name of the server is apple, it's running on an apple computer? All that link says is that it's running on apache!


----------



## loserOlimbs

The way I see, Apple gained a great many fans back when the used proprietary hardware, and the OS wasn't as counter-intuitive.

Once they went to x86 and added the widgets and the launcher, it was already too late!


----------



## tomdkat

pvc_ said:


> tomdkat, I don't know what you are trying to say with that link. Just because the name of the server is apple, it's running on an apple computer? All that link says is that it's running on apache!


The Netcraft site report for www.apple.com reports www.apple.com is being served by an Apache server running on Darwin with PHP 5.2.1 configured.

I was just wondering where you got your information since Netcraft's report clearly indicates otherwise.

Peace...


----------



## pelokwin

Vegas...PVC...Do we have to call Vince McMahon? As it seems some cool guy in a "red hat" said, this poll has run its self out. My own comments aside Macs and PCs seem to draw (for the most part, and professionals aside) two different types of users. So what folks want out of their comps differ. But I love to see a good debate so I hope this goes on a bit longer.  Mac..PC..it is all about what suits you and what works for you


----------



## loserOlimbs

Darwin has a nice GUI...

Beryl is nice too.

That reminds me... http://cybernetnews.com/2007/09/30/shock-3d-virtual-desktop-for-windows/

Shock 3d is pretty cool.


----------



## pelokwin

wow that is pretty cool..(shock 3d) wish my dell could handle it


----------



## loserOlimbs

Whats your Dell?

Shock is a little demanding, but not too bad.


----------



## pelokwin

loserOlimbs, hey,
I have a Dim. 3000 win XP celeron 2.40 GHz 256 mb ram
It has a lot of junk on it (it's the "Family Computer") and I am just waiting for it to die so I can get something better. I tried some widgets from http://www.wincustomize.com/ and my comp. just did not like it one bit, so I am a little afraid to try anything new


----------



## Pantheon

I vote.....

PC ALL THE WAY!!!!!!!!:up::up::up::up::up::up::up::up::up:

Down with mAC!!:down::down::down::down:

I vow that every computer that I own, WILL be a PC


----------



## Stoner

VegasACF said:


> I beg your pardon? _Discussion?!?_ Pray tell, where is this discussion taking place, as I'd _love_ to take part in such a thing!
> 
> Inflammatory and insulting? More so than responding _publicly_ to a private message request to close a tired, necrotic thread? I doubt it.
> 
> So many people have asked that this thread be closed that it boggles the mind it remains open. It had not had a post in it for _nearly_ a year and a half. And yet here we are, again revisiting the same old circle jerk, "Macs are better than Windows v. Windows is better than Macs" debate that will NEVER end. We'll sooner have peace between Jews and Muslims. But, hey, if you want to cast things in whatever tint your glasses give them, feel free.
> 
> If _this_ is what passes for "administrating" in these fora, then I fear my time to leave has come. Godspeed.


I reopened this thread with information about testing to see which platform was more vulnerable to intrusion from a hacker.
I initiated no insulting remarks to you VegasACF, but if you reread your response to me on post 778, 
http://forums.techguy.org/5740975-post778.html
I think you'll find you set the pace for insults.

Security has been a selling feature of Apple computer of late, but now it seems Windows has improved and it should be of interest to new buyers that take security seriously.


----------



## Serge_N_Gin

I think the whole thing is a shame ..... whether or not this thread had been closed surely another would come to take its place ... this forum has a small corner for Mac OS users and this sort of stuff is always gonna happen. 

I feel VegasACF always had good advice for Mac users who came looking for help and will be missed by many. I appreciated his presence, warts'n'all.


----------



## pelokwin

I agree, to loose anyone who has an ability to help others in this forum due to the "Mac vs PC" debate getting too heated is a shame
your team..my team...we all love the sport


----------



## loserOlimbs

pelokwin said:


> loserOlimbs, hey,
> I have a Dim. 3000 win XP celeron 2.40 GHz 256 mb ram
> It has a lot of junk on it (it's the "Family Computer") and I am just waiting for it to die so I can get something better. I tried some widgets from http://www.wincustomize.com/ and my comp. just did not like it one bit, so I am a little afraid to try anything new


265MB probably won't cut it!


----------



## MSM Hobbes

Said before, and as others have mentioned: use what ya like, with mindset that there are pros/cons with every difference, and that this difference is what makes the world a richer place, via competition, or heck just being different. Me, I use a Dell laptop for work, running XP - and it is good. At the house, I've my MB and iMac, both Intel versions, Tiger, and I love 'em. Using that auto vs. manual analogy earlier, when driving my Celica on the backroads, I wish I had a stick, mashing the gears through the corners, but,,, when going through city streets, with one hand full [food, cell phone, camera, etc. ], and there is a lot of stop-go traffic, glad that its an automatic. Both are good, both are different. Bickering over which is 'better', such is childish immature BS, left for those that are trying to puff their feathers, most likely due to insecurity over their own devices... 

Good day.


----------



## Couriant

Can we at least have this moved to random instead of the tech forums?


----------



## kickback999

Manuals are MUCH better than automatics...
Anyway whats the difference between mac and pc these days, they all are intel x86 based, now the ppc is gone, and since u can put Linux on either then they must both be pretty good.
though I do quite like the mac airbook thing, that ultra thin laptop, even if it is a complete gimmick.


----------



## Couriant

It all boils down to one simple word.

Preference.

I have 3 PCs and 1 Mac. I prefer the Mac over the PC because of it's interface and stability. The only reason I have a PC is for games, that's it.

As to the new AirBook, the machine is a good one, but like you said the only thing going for it is the ultra thinness of it.

Technical wise it's not as great as it could be.


----------



## SweaterVest014

If I wasn't in a school that only used PC's, I would definitely get a Mac. But, since almost all of our assignments and projects are done using the Microsoft Office suite, it is easier to just have a PC. 

And, if I were to get a Mac right now, it would be a 15" MacBook Pro.


----------



## tomdkat

SweaterVest014 said:


> If I wasn't in a school that only used PC's, I would definitely get a Mac. But, since almost all of our assignments and projects are done using the Microsoft Office suite, it is easier to just have a PC.


MS Office for Mac OS X shouldn't be too much, for the home/student edition.

Peace...


----------



## MSM Hobbes

tomdkat said:


> MS Office for Mac OS X shouldn't be too much, for the home/student edition.
> 
> Peace...


Yeap, and I've got it on both of mine...


----------



## pelokwin

I got win. office 04 and I have had no problems, but I heard that the 08 version has a lot of issues


----------



## SweaterVest014

tomdkat said:


> MS Office for Mac OS X shouldn't be too much, for the home/student edition.
> 
> Peace...


I know (I have MS Office installed on my iMac) but from a user-friendly standpoint, it is simply easier to use a PC... the school's network is really screwed up, and considering it took our tech person four days to set up a SmartBoard system, I don't want to make anything more confusing than it already is.

~SweaterVest014


----------



## tomdkat

SweaterVest014 said:


> I know (I have MS Office installed on my iMac) but from a user-friendly standpoint, it is simply easier to use a PC...


Do you mean from a MS Office standpoint or from an integration into their network standpoint? I've used MS Office on OS X and it works just like Office on Windows so I'm not sure where "user friendliness" comes into play, other than familiarity with MS Office on Windows.

Peace...


----------



## Cassifire

I prefer Macs over PC's, but I'm not against Windows or anything. I oike the design of Macs, how OS X works and responds, and let's face it, being a teenager I go to some sites that probably aren't exactly safe, so it's easier to not have to worry about viruses.


----------



## pelokwin

As far as I have heard Mac's are not completely safe from viruses but your chances are way low.....so just use someone else's computerjust kidding and stay away from those sites youngblood


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## SweaterVest014

tomdkat said:


> Do you mean from a MS Office standpoint or from an integration into their network standpoint? I've used MS Office on OS X and it works just like Office on Windows so I'm not sure where "user friendliness" comes into play, other than familiarity with MS Office on Windows.
> 
> Peace...


I love MS Office, and don't have a problem using it on PC's or Mac's, however it is difficult to integrate MS Office docs from Mac onto their network... if you saw it, you would be laughing. 

~SweaterVest014


----------



## tomdkat

SweaterVest014 said:


> I love MS Office, and don't have a problem using it on PC's or Mac's, however it is difficult to integrate MS Office docs from Mac onto their network... if you saw it, you would be laughing.


Well, I definitely understand what you mean. I recently had an "issue" opening a Word doc created with MS Word on OS X on my Linux machine using OpenOffice. The problem turned out to be the Word doc created on the Mac simply didn't have a file extension, so double-clicking it didn't open OpenOffice directly. Once I started OpenOffice writer and opened the file manually, it opened just fine.

Things like this really aren't "problems", just part of the cost of platform interoperability.

As for networking, heterogeneous networks are certainly much easier to maintain. 

Peace...


----------



## kickback999

word and .doc are evil
What is microsoft trying to do with .docx? I hope bill gates gets lynched seriously his .docx bulls**t is causing me trouble. why cant they just admit defeat and use .odt like anyone with 2 braincells.
but then again ms office appeals to those with less braincells because it feels and looks like a toy.
Its also coded like one, I prefer to use Thats Write for my 1993 Atari Falcon... Its much more stable.

Anyway mac vs pc....
what is the difference in hardware these days?


----------



## Gibble

Just use the right tool for the job. PC, or other hardware. Win, MacOS, *nix, etc for the OS, depending on the task at hand.


----------



## pelokwin

> but then again ms office appeals to those with less braincells because it feels and looks like a toy.


a little strong don't you think?


----------



## ferrija1

kickback999 said:


> word and .doc are evil
> What is microsoft trying to do with .docx? I hope bill gates gets lynched seriously his .docx bulls**t is causing me trouble. why cant they just admit defeat and use .odt like anyone with 2 braincells.
> but then again ms office appeals to those with less braincells because it feels and looks like a toy.
> Its also coded like one, I prefer to use Thats Write for my 1993 Atari Falcon... Its much more stable.
> 
> Anyway mac vs pc....
> what is the difference in hardware these days?


.docx is a step in the right direction, using an open XML format. If it really pisses you off (it seems as though it does), just use plain text files.


----------



## kickback999

.docx is just another attempt at monopolising the market


----------



## tomdkat

ferrija1 said:


> .docx is a step in the right direction, using an open XML format.


However, to NOT support ODT certainly isn't.

Peace...


----------



## dannyn

i know this has been said..
macs are pcs...
you can run windows on a mac.. and not the other way.


----------



## kickback999

Why the _hell_ would you want to?


----------



## pelokwin

> kickback999 Why the hell would you want to?


Well for one Windows is the best OS in the worl......sorry I can't even finish typing I am crying on my keyboard
The only thing I can think of is Microsoft Office for Mac, I have it because Microsoft Office is what we us at work and I have yet to find a free office suit for my Mac that works perfectly with Win Office


----------



## ferrija1

Microsoft Office isn't free, why do you need something free on the Mac. Anyways, NeoOffice and Openoffice work great.


----------



## dannyn

> Why the hell would you want to?


i would want to do that beacuse i cant run mac on a non apple branded computer, and apple is very good for the things i use it for and i would be at a great loss with out it.
also the mac laptops are smaller, better with batteries, cleaner looking, and very well designed.


----------



## kickback999

Ye but why run windows on a mac, when you get osx which is 10 times better?
and actually you _can_ run osx on a normal pc!


----------



## dannyn

no you cannot
actually i take that back.
illegally you can.


----------



## ferrija1

And you have to do some hacking.


----------



## pelokwin

ferrija1 said:


> Microsoft Office isn't free, why do you need something free on the Mac. Anyways, NeoOffice and Openoffice work great.


I bought my Mac with Win Office already installed. (on ebay)
I need free because I hate paying for stuff that I already have. i.e. another office suite
I use Open Office on my Dell and I love it except that when I create a spread sheet on Calc
and try to open it on Excel, it does not always work. Some of the formulas change.
I have not tried NeoOffice


----------



## Gibble

pelokwin said:


> I bought my Mac with Win Office already installed. (on ebay)
> I need free because I hate paying for stuff that I already have. i.e. another office suite
> I use Open Office on my Dell and I love it except that when I create a spread sheet on Calc
> and try to open it on Excel, it does not always work. Some of the formulas change.
> I have not tried NeoOffice


I think I'm going to go steal a car, I mean, I already have one, I shouldn't have to pay for another!!!


----------



## ferrija1

Gibble said:


> I think I'm going to go steal a car, I mean, I already have one, I shouldn't have to pay for another!!!


A car that came with your house...

You could buy a Mac from Ebay with MS Office on it.


----------



## pelokwin

Gibble said:


> I think I'm going to go steal a car, I mean, I already have one, I shouldn't have to pay for another!!!


HAhahahaha
Aw come on what is wrong with my love of free stuff, if it was not for that love I would have never gotten into Linux.
Besides I don't want to steal, I want folks to give me stuff of their own free will


----------



## Couriant

pelokwin said:


> HAhahahaha
> Aw come on what is wrong with my love of free stuff, if it was not for that love I would have never gotten into Linux.
> Besides I don't want to steal, I want folks to give me stuff of their own free will


Isn't that what grandparents are for?


----------



## Gibble

ferrija1 said:


> A car that came with your house...
> 
> You could buy a Mac from Ebay with MS Office on it.


That doesn't necessarily mean it's a legal copy.


----------



## ferrija1

And pelokwin's copy may not be legal either.


----------



## pelokwin

ferrija1 said:


> And pelokwin's copy may not be legal either.


As far as I know the man I bought it from is on the up and up ,he sell all sorts of computer stuff on ebay, now of coarse that does not make him trustworthy but it is better then buying one off the back of a truck at the NJ docks. Also when I got my iBook I wanted to try a Mac so I did not want to buy a new one and I was short on funds. So hey I rolled the dice.
If I really wanted to know I could find the prev. owner and ask him. My iBook has already been to Apple (under Apple Care) for a busted logic board so if something was not right would they have noticed it?
You know if it is an illegal copy yes it is wrong but I would not loose any sleep


----------



## dannyn

> My iBook has already been to Apple (under Apple Care) for a busted logic board so if something was not right would they have noticed it?


doubtful... apple care is not there to validate software, they are there to fix the problem. I don't think that they are even allowed to do that.


----------



## pelokwin

hmmm
Other then calling Mr. ********, is there a way to find out?


----------



## dannyn

http://www.microsoft.com/genuine/office/WhyValidate.aspx?displaylang=en


----------



## ferrija1

I don't care if your copy is legal, I'm just telling Gibble that for the sake of the argument.


----------



## pelokwin

Dannyn,
I have used that link before on my Dell(I should have thought of that)
I could not get it to would not work, but I really don't HAVE to know


----------



## dannyn

ok. sorry it didn't work. there may be another link on there somewhere that is more applicable.


----------



## Stoner

Just an update on the security angle of Windows vs Apple:

http://www.theregister.co.uk/2008/06/25/mac_exposure/
excerpts>


> The Mac security scene is heating up, with the discovery in recent weeks of a serious vulnerability in OS X and at least two Trojan horse programs that target the Apple OS.





> Interestingly, the exploit was was written modularly, so that the code that actually exploits the Mac weakness can be bundled with other malware code. That means the same weakness could be targeted over and over by a variety of other Trojans.





> "I think that these revelations reveal that the Mac is entering a new phase of exposure to malware," Dino Dai Zovi, a security researcher who helped dissect the Trojan, told the The Register. "This shows that there is an active community of researchers who are looking for vulnerabilities in MacOS X and *not* reporting their findings to Apple."


----------



## Couriant

interesting :up: thanks jack,


----------



## pelokwin

(this is the time when you hear that Jaws song, duh dut, duh dut)


----------



## troyhark

kickback999 said:


> Ye but why run windows on a mac, when you get osx which is 10 times better?
> and actually you _can_ run osx on a normal pc!


I'm always curious about statements like these. How exactly is it better?
Same goes for PCs, how are they better? Talking OS differences here.

I'll start -

PCs are better as they don't have Finder, which is one of the crappiest and clunkiest apps ever made and unfortnately underpins the entire OS. Much, much, much easier to delete files by mistake with finder.

Macs are better as virus creators aren't targeting them. Yet. So no resource hogging and buggy anti-virus software needed.
Both are awful when it comes to neworking.

I use XP + OSX and both annoy me as they don't have the nice features the other does. Simple things on one, are really fiddly on the other. 
I'll also add that my 8 core MacPro is the least reliable/flakiest computer I've ever bought.
It just works - yeah right, Crashes, locks up...I just installed 4th update to Leopard the fix the huge amount of bugs, that it came with, not to mention the menory issues and screen redraw problems.


----------



## ferrija1

troyhark said:


> I'm always curious about statements like these. How exactly is it better?
> Same goes for PCs, how are they better? Talking OS differences here.
> 
> I'll start -
> 
> PCs are better as they don't have Finder, which is one of the crappiest and clunkiest apps ever made and unfortnately underpins the entire OS. Much, much, much easier to delete files by mistake with finder.
> 
> Macs are better as virus creators aren't targeting them. Yet. So no resource hogging and buggy anti-virus software needed.
> Both are awful when it comes to neworking.
> 
> I use XP + OSX and both annoy me as they don't have the nice features the other does. Simple things on one, are really fiddly on the other.
> I'll also add that my 8 core MacPro is the least reliable/flakiest computer I've ever bought.
> It just works - yeah right, Crashes, locks up...I just installed 4th update to Leopard the fix the huge amount of bugs, that it came with, not to mention the menory issues and screen redraw problems.


How is it easier to delete files by accident in the Finder? It's just as easy as in Explorer. I found this great series of Ars articles chock full of reasons to switch.
http://arstechnica.com/articles/culture/what-microsoft-could-learn-from-apple.ars/1


----------



## troyhark

If you drag a folder+ any subfolders to a place where another folder of same name exists on a Mac, it replaces *entire folder and all subfolders* with whatever is in new folder. On a PC it will ask you if you want to replace any files that have same name or not copy those that are the same. Finder is all or nothing with no feedback as to which data is most recent and is a *serious gotcha* with anyone who uses Windows + Macs.

So I cannot simply move folders that have had some files altered/added say to another place using Finder if a folder of same name exists. I have to remember and individually find each altered file and transfer the files to folders individually.

Also if you do accidentally delete a file in Windows, you go to trash, restore any files you want and they will all return to whence they came. So very easy. Try restoring from Trash in Finder. Not a nice task.
Finder seems like a 90s bit of software, early 90s.
Default Folder X makes FInder a little more bearable in use though.

Sadly none of the Finder alternatives are of much use as Finder is major part of the OS, whereas Directory Opus, an Explorer replacement, is probably one of the best programmes ever written as it does what it is designed to do so very well and then some more and when my computers will actually see each other via network, I use that to File manage my Mac as it's soooooo much better/easier/morepowerful. Not decided which OS to run in Boot Camp yet [64 or 32] or I'd use that.


----------



## troyhark

And for anyone who uses PCs, I cannot recomend this programme [DOpus] enough, very frustrating not being able to use it on my Mac.
A taster of it can be found here.
http://nudel.dopus.com/opus9/
Part of why it is so good it that you can customise it to suit how *you *want to work. Though it can take you a while just to go through the huge options list when setting up. Though it's easy to update, save and export all settings, something Adobe in particular could take a look at.


----------



## VegasACF

troyhark said:


> If you drag a folder+ any subfolders to a place where another folder of same name exists on a Mac, it replaces *entire folder and all subfolders* with whatever is in new folder. On a PC it will ask you if you want to replace any files that have same name or not copy those that are the same. Finder is all or nothing with no feedback as to which data is most recent and is a *serious gotcha* with anyone who uses Windows + Macs.
> 
> So I cannot simply move folders that have had some files altered/added say to another place using Finder if a folder of same name exists. I have to remember and individually find each altered file and transfer the files to folders individually.
> 
> Also if you do accidentally delete a file in Windows, you go to trash, restore any files you want and they will all return to whence they came. So very easy. Try restoring from Trash in Finder. Not a nice task.
> Finder seems like a 90s bit of software, early 90s.
> Default Folder X makes FInder a little more bearable in use though.
> 
> Sadly none of the Finder alternatives are of much use as Finder is major part of the OS, whereas Directory Opus, an Explorer replacement, is probably one of the best programmes ever written as it does what it is designed to do so very well and then some more and when my computers will actually see each other via network, I use that to File manage my Mac as it's soooooo much better/easier/morepowerful. Not decided which OS to run in Boot Camp yet [64 or 32] or I'd use that.


Your experience is 180 degrees contrary to my experience, at least as you have given voice above (perhaps you have misstated things?). _Any_ time I drag a folder (or a file) from one place to another, where there is already a file with the same name in existence, I am confronted by a dialog box that says, "The file 'XXXXXXXX" already exists in this location." It then gives me the option of replacing it or canceling my directive to move/copy the file to that location. If I choose to cancel the move/copy, I can then open up each window and see what's new, what's not, and make my decisions more carefully, rather than riding roughshod through my hard drive. It does not, as you say in your first paragraph, "replace entire folders and subfolders," without any chance to not make that happen. That's why I ask if you misstated things. Now, if a user isn't paying attention and just blithely and blindly clicks "yes" to whatever dialog box comes along then, yes, what you say _can_ happen. But the user _is_ given the opportunity to back out of such a scenario, if only s/he pays attention.

Personally, I find this more than a bit frustrating, as I'm (generally) a user who knows what he wants to do, and finds dialog boxes asking me if what I said I want to do is _actually_ what I want to do to be FAR more than frustrating (for an example of this, use any modern variant of Windows and try to delete a file). Sure, there have been a handful of times (hence, my use of the word "generally," _supra_) when such a dialog caught me unawares, and kept me from doing the thing I had just told the computer I wanted to do when I didn't _really_ want to do it. But I reckon those times are in the hundredths of a percentage point of the total percentage of time I have spent trying to do _just exactly_ what I told the computer I wanted to do, only to be faced with this _infuriating_ dialog. It's not as if moving something to the "recycle bin" actually deletes it (nor does actually "emptying" said recycle bin, mind you). Chances are, if I move something there, I have a chance of "un"moving it from there before I traipse, willy nilly, into the "empty recycle bin" lair (and, even _then_ I get a chance to say, "Oh, nope. I was wrong. I don't want to do that!").

I think I understand what you mean, though. You desire an ability to have the computer tell you that there's already something with the same name in the location, and gives you the opportunity to overwrite each file individually. You _can_ do this. Simply open the folder, select all (Command-A), and drag those files (en masse) to your new destination. You will then be given the opportunity to decide, on a file-by-file basis, if you want to overwrite or keep the old file. It may not be quite as elegant as you like (merely copying a folder to another location where the "same" folder exists, and then the computer sorts through each file, one-by-one, and asks you what to do with it). But, then, I'm not one to trust a computer to do that for me. If I'm dealing with a copy of something (for, say, security reasons), and I want the files that I've worked on to be saved to another location, I'll do that myself. I don't just drag and drop with no further thought, and no further wondering as to which file is the one I really want to keep (mind you--the dialog of whence you speak offers no help other than the fact that one may be newer--again, newer doesn't necessarily mean _better_).

I tend to be very careful when it comes to saving/copying new versions of files. Perhaps I'm an oddity in this modern world. But, if so, then that is not my fault. Know the system in which you are working, and use it to your best advantage. To do anything else is to risk your own peril--at least if you're working on anything of any consequence.


----------



## ferrija1

troyhark said:


> Finder seems like a 90s bit of software, early 90s.


It may be, are you sure you're not using OS 9? 

I side with Vegas on this argument.


----------



## troyhark

VegasACF said:


> Your experience is 180 degrees contrary to my experience, at least as you have given voice above (perhaps you have misstated things?).


 Hmm try reading more carefully.



> _Any_ time I drag a folder (or a file) from one place to another, where there is already a file with the same name in existence, I am confronted by a dialog box that says, "The file 'XXXXXXXX" already exists in this location."


 Which tells me nothing of use, so I cannot decide what you next suggest, as I have no useful info. Plus it only tells me about the top most folder, not about the files or subfolders it may contained, which is the important bit.



> It then gives me the option of replacing it or canceling my directive to move/copy the file to that location. [ If I choose to cancel the move/copy, I can then open up each window and see what's new, what's not, and make my decisions more carefully, rather than riding roughshod through my hard drive.


'Riding roughshod over my hard drive', dear me, what a daft exageration, besides I can make informed judgement without having to look at every file like you suggest in Finder. I certainly would't have time to spend on forums if I did that with my files. 



> It does not, as you say in your first paragraph, "replace entire folders and subfolders," without any chance to not make that happen.


That's not what I said. The Mac effectively deletes the old folder in destination and copies new folder across. In Windows it replaces any individual file after asking first and simply add anything that's different, it merges not replaces. A much, much better way of doing things.


> That's why I ask if you misstated things.


 Well as you misread and then misquoted....



> Now, if a user isn't paying attention and just blithely and blindly clicks "yes" to whatever dialog box comes along then, yes, what you say _can_ happen. But the user _is_ given the opportunity to back out of such a scenario, if only s/he pays attention.


but if a Windows user clicks yes they will then expect further detailed analysis of what files to replace, hence it's a serious gotcha for those using both. Windows has a more granular method. OSX's method is to delete old folder and copy new folder across, whereas Windows merges the folders, which is more useful and saves time copying. As if I want to delete and replace a folder, that is trivial compared to manually comparing thousands of files in hundreds of folders.



> Personally, I find this more than a bit frustrating, as I'm (generally) a user who knows what he wants to do, and finds dialog boxes asking me if what I said I want to do is _actually_ what I want to do to be FAR more than frustrating (for an example of this, use any modern variant of Windows and try to delete a file).


 That's exactly when you want asking, as it is so very, very easy to click the wrong file, especially when tired. 
Besides that a very different kind of dialogue. I know when moving files there will be some duplicates, but not all, otherwise why copy across? So the computer should check as *humans will always make mistakes* at some time, no matter how careful or fastidious they may think they are.



> Chances are, if I move something there, I have a chance of "un"moving it from there before I traipse, willy nilly, into the "empty recycle bin" lair (and, even _then_ I get a chance to say, "Oh, nope. I was wrong. I don't want to do that!").


 And retrieving stuff from a Mac's recycle is much harder/fidlier than from a PC's recycle bin as a PC will simply return files to where they came, unlike the Finder's manual dragging to original folder.
Plus if I delete from a Memory card I then have to immediately empty recylce bin on a Mac as otherwise the card when placed in Camera, is blank but still full, so will need formating. I've missed shots due to this Mac quirk. So not only do you have to remember to either empty Recylce Bin when deleting from card or remember to format card before next using it. So if you remember to empty bin, anything you deleted by mistake is then completely gone.



> I think I understand what you mean, though. You desire an ability to have the computer tell you that there's already something with the same name in the location, and gives you the opportunity to overwrite each file individually.


 Yup. Very useful timesaver. Very useful.

quote] You _can_ do this. Simply open the folder, select all (Command-A), and drag those files (en masse) to your new destination. [/quote] And that's where it all falls down, I usually have many subfolders and more nested within. So fiddly, faffy and time consuming.


> You will then be given the opportunity to decide, on a file-by-file basis, if you want to overwrite or keep the old file and given information regarding size/date


 which is actually very useful, but a bit late in the workflow to be of use especially with nested folders. DOpus gives you even more info and will usefully highlight the aspects that are different and even show you a picture if it's a graphic/image file. A fantastic timesaver.



> It may not be quite as elegant as you like (merely copying a folder to another location where the "same" folder exists, and then the computer sorts through each file, one-by-one, and asks you what to do with it).


Not elegant! Interesting euphemism for difficult, faffy and time consuming. Downright painful would be my description. 



> But, then, I'm not one to trust a computer to do that for me. If I'm dealing with a copy of something (for, say, security reasons), and I want the files that I've worked on to be saved to another location, I'll do that myself. I don't just drag and drop with no further thought, and no further wondering as to which file is the one I really want to keep (mind you--the dialog of whence you speak offers no help other than the fact that one may be newer--again, newer doesn't necessarily mean _better_).


If you only work on latest files then actually newest is best.And there is no way I would open and read every document or examine each layer in a PS file to find out.
I deal with hundreds of thousands of files, so Finder with it's faffy and vague dialogues, clunky workarounds and general uselessness is a severe impediment to my workflow. I'm much slower using a Mac than a PC as a result if doing File management. Even though my Mac is curently my fastest machine.



> I tend to be very careful when it comes to saving/copying new versions of files.


Me too, hence my complete loathing of Finder.


> Know the system in which you are working, and use it to your best advantage. To do anything else is to risk your own peril--at least if you're working on anything of any consequence.


I know both and have a thorough an understanding of each, hence my conclusion that it's obvious that Finder is so very inferior to Explorer. Bafflingly so. And Explorer pales next to the power of DOpus. 
Finder cannot even do something as simple as put a new folder inside the folder I want when I'm in list view, other times it doesn't even tell you where you are, unless you use Terminal to do some hacks -not exactly simple or user friendly.
I'd go as far as saying Finder's probably the worst programme I've ever used. But then normally if a programme is a bit rubbish you simply use a better one. Sadly, it's not really an option with Finder.
A shame as it lets the whole OS down.


----------



## troyhark

ferrija1 said:


> It may be, are you sure you're not using OS 9?


 When using Finder it certanly feels like it. 



> [I side with Vegas on this argument.


 Really why? Please explain why Finder doesn't suck.
My suspicion is that everyone who uses a particular programme/OS on a regular basis, gets used to the quirks and learns the workarounds and eventually ceases to notice how tricky things can be after a while as the workarounds become reflexive.
As someone regularly who uses both platforms [and by choice], I believe they are both good, but also annoyingly crap at times, albeit in varying ways. My ideal system would have the best features of both.
But because I use both, the deficiencies of each are more glaring, than if I was single platform user.


----------



## VegasACF

troyhark said:


> Hmm try reading more carefully.


I'm actually quite a proficient reader. That's why when you say the following:



> If you drag a folder+ any subfolders to a place where another folder of same name exists on a Mac, it replaces entire folder and all subfolders with whatever is in new folder. On a PC it will ask you if you want to replace any files that have same name or not copy those that are the same. Finder is all or nothing with no feedback as to which data is most recent and is a serious gotcha with anyone who uses Windows + Macs.


I call your statement into question. Nowhere do you state that you are ever given an opportunity to keep the Mac OS from simply overwriting your files. What you state is that the Mac simply overwrites everything. This is patently false. It may not be what you _meant_, but it _is_ what you said. No misquoting (I quoted you directly), no misrepresentation (again, your quote is verbatim, courtesy the "quote" function built into these fora.

I'm simply too busy to bother with the rest of your reply. The above is sufficient.

Have a wonderful evening.


----------



## ferrija1

Congratulations, you two have just written a short essay on a the behavior of moving a file to a directory with a file of the same name. Come on, even if the Finder does have that one flaw, that's only one thing that invokes your reasoning that the Finder is one of "the crappiest and clunkiest apps ever made." Might you have any additional rationale for your derogatory remarks towards the Finder?


----------



## Serge_N_Gin

Poll: Mac or PC?

Personally, I'm searching for the Mac & PC button but it's not there? I argue with myself about whether one is better than the other .... then I remember the following and half of me blushes ...



> _Three Apple engineers and three Microsoft employees are traveling by train to a conference. At the station, the three Microsoft employees each buy tickets and watch as the three Apple engineers buy only a single ticket.
> 
> "How are three people going to travel on only one ticket?" asks a Microsoft employee.
> "Watch and you'll see," answers the Apple engineer.
> They all board the train. The Microsoft employees take their respective seats, but all three Apple engineers cram into a restroom and close the door behind them. Shortly after the train has departed, the conductor comes around collecting tickets. He knocks on the restroom door and says, "ticket please." The door opens just a crack and a single arm emerges with a ticket in hand. The conductor takes it and moves on.
> 
> The Microsoft employees saw this and agreed it was quite a clever idea. So after the conference, the Microsoft employees decide to copy the Apple engineers on the return trip and save some money (being clever with money, and all that). When they get to the station, they buy a single ticket for the return trip. To their astonishment, the Apple engineers don't buy a ticket at all.
> 
> "How are you going to travel without a ticket" says one perplexed Microsoft employee.
> "Watch and you'll see," answers an Apple engineer.
> 
> When they board the train the three Microsoft employees cram into a restroom and the three Apple engineers cram into another one nearby. The train departs. Shortly afterward, one of the Apple engineers leaves his restroom and walks over to the restroom where the Microsoft employees are hiding. He knocks on the door and says, "Ticket, please"...
> _


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## troyhark

ferrija1 said:


> Congratulations, you two have just written a short essay on a the behavior of moving a file to a directory with a file of the same name. Come on, even if the Finder does have that one flaw, that's only one thing that invokes your reasoning that the Finder is one of "the crappiest and clunkiest apps ever made." Might you have any additional rationale for your derogatory remarks towards the Finder?


Yes, but I haven't got time to list them all. 
Though I'm sure I mentioned a couple of its stupidities in my novel up above.


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## troyhark

VegasACF said:


> I'm actually quite a proficient reader.


 So why do you keep misinterpreting?



> I call your statement into question. Nowhere do you state that you are ever given an opportunity to keep the Mac OS from simply overwriting your files. What you state is that the Mac simply overwrites everything. This is patently false. It may not be what you _meant_, but it _is_ what you said. No misquoting (I quoted you directly), no misrepresentation (again, your quote is verbatim, courtesy the "quote" function built into these fora.


I said 
* 'Finder is all or nothing with no feedback as to which data is most recent' *
Whereas you seem to have read it as 
* 'Finder is all or nothing with no feedback'*
There's a very big differerence between those sentences, as if you miss out the underlined part your interpretation would be correct. 
An apology would be nice.:up:
Besides the point was not even about being given the option not to continue as that is the same on both Mac + PC, *but the implications of ignoring the warning on either OS, which is completely different*.
Finders Deletes and Replaces entire folder, Explorer only replaces files with same name [if you want it to], leaving the rest intact.



> I'm simply too busy to bother with the rest of your reply. The above is sufficient.
> Have a wonderful evening.


Shorthand for 'I don't have an actual response. So I'll fob you off with a repeat of my initial misunderstanding.'


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