# Unfinished basement



## Crusnik (Feb 1, 2007)

I recently purchased a new home (yay, first time home owner =D!) and there in a horrible looking, musty, unfinished basement. About 900 square feet, half the floor is paved, the other half is dirt. The walls are uncovered insulation (the pink looking kind you see in attics). The ceiling is uncovered, but thats not a big deal.

My first goal is to pave the rest of the basement. I may need to direct myself to Google on methods of paving, but thatll be something I have to learn down the road.

To add more to the fun, I live in a flood zone. I hear the three best things do are:

1) Get a sump pump that hooks into the drain system
2) Get a dehumidifier that hooks into the drain system
3) Extend the drain pipes from the roof out further from the base of the home

Now that all that has been added to the mix, I am left thinking how do I coordinate paving the rest of the basement with having a sump pump installed? Do I have to sloop the flooring towards the sump pump drain so water flows to it? And is there anything special I need to do to cement with floods in mind?

Im going to have a professional plumber install the sump pump and dehumidifier.


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## wacor (Feb 22, 2005)

Sump pumps are not really meant to drain out a flooded basement. They are not connected to the floor drains. At least that is my experience. They are to collect drainage from pipes laid along the foundation on the outside of the house. 

One thing to consider if the walls are prone to leaks is to put in a system that lets the water come into the basement via holes drilled in the walls just above the floor. not sure how they collect that water but i suspect on an existing floor they would break out the floor and then dig down a little to make a trough which then gravity feeds into the sump.


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## Crusnik (Feb 1, 2007)

This is where I read about sump pumps:

http://www.sump-pump-info.com/


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## metweek (Jun 7, 2003)

wacor said:


> Sump pumps are not really meant to drain out a flooded basement. They are not connected to the floor drains. At least that is my experience. They are to collect drainage from pipes laid along the foundation on the outside of the house.
> 
> One thing to consider if the walls are prone to leaks is to put in a system that lets the water come into the basement via holes drilled in the walls just above the floor. not sure how they collect that water but i suspect on an existing floor they would break out the floor and then dig down a little to make a trough which then gravity feeds into the sump.


Hi Mr Brown,
Just want to help you out so you know what to ask. The "pipes laid along the foundation on the outside of the house" are called *drain tile*. Also drain "pipes from the roof" are called *down spouts*. Hope this doesn't sound rude, I just wanted to make sure you knew the terms for what you are asking about.

Also since you can obviously not put drain around your house without great expense you could dig a trench in your basement floor that follows the outside walls. Make the trench as least twice as wide as the drain time. Fill the bottom of the trench with pea rock then lay the drain tile in then put pea rock on top of and around the drain tile. Then cover the whole floor with sand. Compact the sand. Install forms. Laydown rebar then pour.


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## iltos (Jun 13, 2004)

mrbrown38 said:


> I recently purchased a new home (yay, first time home owner =D!) and there in a horrible looking, musty, unfinished basement. About 900 square feet, half the floor is paved, the other half is dirt. The walls are uncovered insulation (the pink looking kind you see in attics). The ceiling is uncovered, but that's not a big deal.
> 
> My first goal is to pave the rest of the basement. I may need to direct myself to Google on methods of paving, but that'll be something I have to learn down the road.
> 
> ...


a sump pump is a good idea in the event of flooding....you will need to either form a box (and provide a cover for it) in your basement floor to house the pump, or buy one that you can place before you finish the floor

what comes to mind when i read "flood plain" is where the water table is in your area....is it well below the floor level of your basement?....or are these walls (which sound like conventional wood framed walls) subject to hydraulic pressure and/or just a whole lot of moisture from the surrounding soil?....if that's the case, then before you cover them, you need to give some serious consideration to keeping the water/moisture outside your new room

water is insidious...if it's there, it'll find a way into the room...depending on the severity of your exact situation, the intended use of the room, and your budget, you might want to consider consulting with a hydraulic engineer, who can make specific recommendations.


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## Crusnik (Feb 1, 2007)

Didn't come off rude at all. I need to know what things are called so I don't look like an idiot =).

Two of the down spouts are connected to black PVC looking pipes on the outside of the house which I assume goto the street or sewer system. I was going to extend the other two down spouts ten feet away from the house (recommends to prevent leakage from the ground), but I was thinking... How cool would it be too hook these other down spouts into the same PCV pipes are the other two. Maybe I can provide pictures later. Any input on that? Or should it be pretty straight forward?


And....


Question about drain tiles. I've seen pictures of it done two way, both ways involve floor tiles being connected to a sump pump.

1) Drain tiles are place along the perimeter, with rock below and above, like what you described. Then covered with the cement afterwards.

2) Drain tiles are places along the perimeter, with rock below. Then cement is laid 1" away from the perimeter, leaving a lip allowing water from the floor to drain to the sides of the floor.


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## Crusnik (Feb 1, 2007)

There is a creek a block away. From eye balling it, I'd say the creek is 10 feet below the level of the basement. I do think hydraulic pressure is an issue. The soil in one corner is damp and the whole basement is musty. I was going to look into getting a plumber to install a dehumidifier that connected to the drain system in hopes of taking care of some of that.


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## blues_harp28 (Jan 9, 2005)

Hi what are you going to use the basement for?
First thing Id do is to ask your neighbours what they have done with their basements to protect against flooding damp etc.

Incorporate installing the sump pump with laying a new floor then you can make sure the flooring level and drainage runs in the right direction.
Concrete would be the best choice for flooring.
As has been said pea rock or pea shingle layed around the edges where the concrete meets the walls.

Dry lining the walls is also best as it allows the walls to breathe..wooden battens fixed to the walls then covered with plasterboard with silver foil on the back to resist damp.
Between the plasterboard and the outside wall use polystyrene insulation.

Check the outside brickwork for damage pointing etc.
Repoint if needed.

Asking local builders to give you an estimate for improving the basement will give you an idea of the cost but also more importantly what work needs to be done.


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## Crusnik (Feb 1, 2007)

Just put a call into a dealer for a free inspection and estimate for the 27th. We'll see how that goes!


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## JohnWill (Oct 19, 2002)

Do NOT connect a sump pump to your sewer drain! That is illegal in almost every location I can think of. You need to have the pump drain locally on the property.

How well the sump pump works will depend on what's under the floor. If the section that has already been laid doesn't have good drainage, you may have water issues even if you do the rest properly. Prior to building this house, I lived in a development (it was a new house), and many of the houses didn't have proper preparation for the concrete pour for the basement slab. All of those houses had water issues all around the slab. I was there for the pour of mine, and stopped them because there was no crushed rock, they were pouring the concrete right on the mud! It did delay the house by almost a month (payback no doubt), but I had good drainage and no water issues in my basement.

Finally, if the basement floor is laid properly, installing the sump pump and dehumidifier are not rocket science, and anyone that knows a screwdriver from a pipe wrench can do it. You just plug the dehumidifier in and drain it into the sump hole, no sweat. The sump pump just needs a drain to your chosen outside location, obviously on a slope away from the house.

I'd give serious thought to having the whole floor redone properly if you don't know what's under the existing floor.


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## uplandhunter (Oct 1, 2007)

Mr. Brown.
Having a dry basement. Install draintile even or just below footers, outside and inside of basement walls. 
Outside: draintile . at least 2 foot of gravel on top, I put 4ft, landscape fabric on top of that to not let dirt filter down and clog system. Foundation can have sprayed on rubber coating, drainage sheet to protect rubber or peal and stick rubber sheets with drainage sheet to protect.
Inside draintile ran through a 12indeep trench ran around the perimeter then to the sump pump, this is also hooked up with the outside draintile. Gravel on top of this and 4more inches of gravel on top of the whole basement flloor.
6 mill plastic layed on top of all of this to prevent moisture and any radon gasses coming up through floor's. 
4-5 inches on concrete laid with gentle slopes towards the sump pump.
If carpet is used, consider full glue down commercial carpet. easy to clean, no padding to get wet.


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## uplandhunter (Oct 1, 2007)

Where I live there are no storm sewers. We run are downspouts out into the yard, at least 6ft from the foundation, mine are around 10ft.
My sump pump for foundation water is hooked to my sanitary sewer, which is allowed. 
I like this because it always keeps the line cleaned out.


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## Soundy (Feb 17, 2006)

You haven't mentioned if you've done it yet, but the first thing you want to do is look into your local building codes and find out if the level of work you intend to do requires permits (it probably will). 

If you do work that requires a permit and you don't have those permits, you may be required to stop work or even remove everything you've done later if the city/municipality/etc. finds out. You may also find later that insurance doesn't cover any damage done if renovations weren't done to code.

Most importantly, local building codes will have accommodations for the particular conditions of your area - climate, weather, soil conditions, etc. - and will help give you a better idea of what you'll need to do for proper drainage and such. They'll also give you an idea of things like whether you're allowed to hook your sump pump into your sewer pipes.

You may need to dig up outside the foundation if the drainage there isn't sufficient - the best way to keep water OUT of your basement, is to keep it AWAY from your basement in the first place.


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## uplandhunter (Oct 1, 2007)

Soundy makes a good point about codes. 

Most building depts. wont require a permit for waterproofing your basement, as long as none of the work is structural. And you dont bring in to much fill and change the contour of the land, and dump excessive water on your neighbor.

What they might require is a plumbing permit, for adding pipe and tying into any kind of system.

Good luck

Uplandhunter - ( union carpenter ) - ( city building inspector )


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## blknblu1 (Nov 6, 2007)

To get rid of that musty smell you have to look at the entire basement, walls, slab, and footing, as a whole. 

If your landscaping is sloped toward your house, lookout! There are basic lines of defense here. Landscaping, moisture barrier on the foundation and footing, drainage in the form of weeping tiles outside your foundation to carry water away, and drainage inside your foundation walls under your basement slab to your sump pump (last line of defense).

Landscaping is often the best line of defense. Slope the ground around your house away and make sure it is well compacted. It acts as a "skin" during heavy weather. Older houses often have the ground directly around their foundation settle over time, leaving a trough around the house, and standing water exactly where you don't want it. 

The tar on the outside of your foundation prevents water from going through the concrete (concrete is porous), and directs it to your weeping tile. 

If that is overwhelmed, it works its way under your footing and under your basement slab,
where the drainage system, just on the inside of your foundation walls, carries this water to a sump pit, and your sump pump spits it out of the house.

That is a perfect world.

If your house is old, as I suspect it is, there is a pretty good chance you will have some cracks in the foundation (concrete wall) letting moisture in during heavy storming. What happens is the ground around your house gets saturated with water, and hydrostatic pressure pushes it through the wall any place it can. In a perfect world, your weeping (or drain) tile carries this away to city drainage, but often the spray on tar on the outside of the foundation is years old, inadequate for the job, or poorly done in the first place (with a tailgate warranty), and water is opportunistic. Think of an empty fish tank submerged in a bath-tub, with drainage around the base of the tank. This is essentially your house. 

Secondly, you have to suspect the existing slab. If it was poured without a poly-ethylene barrier underneath, existing moisture is wicked through it, leaching calcium and other minerals out of the concrete, making your slab weaker over time, and giving a musty smell. This leaching will appear as a white powder on the floor. A perfectly working system will not DRY the ground underneath the house. It takes away excess. 

I suspect in your case, however, that most of your musty smell is coming from the 1/2 of your basement that is garden.  You state that it looks moist. That tells me that whatever (if any) line of defense you have is not working. These systems are put in place to PREVENT water from getting up underneath your slab in the first place. A location with a high water table has more hydrostatic pressure than, say, a hill. Often, as a result, the weeping tile (old stuff is just made out of fired clay) will collapse, and you have a plug in your line. 

Sump pumps are a relatively new thing brought into effect by an insurance industry tired of paying out repeatedly on flooding claims. Their pressure mandated the changes in building codes to require sump pumps. This is why many old houses do not have them. 

To permanently cure your problem you will have to dig down around your foundation all the way to the footing.

Seal any cracks. Roll on shingles applied by a hot tar roofer worked quite well for me. A 4" patch, covered with a 12" patch, covered with a 18" patch. The patch job is over 1/2" think and will NEVER leak. Not there, anyways. Re-tar the foundation BY HAND.

Install new weeping tile, covered with gravel and landscape cloth, and backfill BY HAND! This ensures a good job. Backfill and tamp as you go with a jumping jack in 16" lifts, but don't go absolutely nuts about it. Back hoes are great for kids shows, but we are talking about your house.

Tear out the old basement slab if you see any sign of "dusting". Install weeping tile as per uplandhunter suggestions and prep for sump pit and pump.

Pour a new slab over a layer of gravel, and ensure there is poly under it with the joints taped. As well as keeping moisture out after curing, the other effect of having poly under a concrete slab is that it keeps the water in the freshly poured concrete. Not many know or do this, but it is VERY important. Keeping the water in the poured concrete allows the process of hydrolyzation (when concrete turns to rock) to continue, and the result is a concrete slab that attains its design strength, and will not crack. Fresh concrete should be allowed to cure for a minimum of 7-10 days, in fact, if you can keep it wet for those days by spraying it down three or four times a day, that would be even better. This is a process called ponding. If you take away the water, the process stops and you will have weak, porous (more so than normal) concrete.

Ok, that ought to help, now, can you direct a few folks over to my question under this heading? 

"Fresh squeaky new computer build. Startup?"



blknblu1 is a union carpenter as well and I agree fully with uplandhunter


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## rocksteady (Nov 19, 2007)

I have been finnishing basements for 15 years. I have done hundreds of basements in that time. I would usually recommend homeowner to get professional advice from local waterproofing comp. Anyone who does work other than your self should be licensed and experienced in there field. This is extremely important. Don't accept a bid for remodeling unless you are comfortable with the contractor and the estimate seems fair enough. The estimate that is ussually the cheapest is usually the one to not accept. Lots of people claim they do good work so ask them to prove it through current references. Along with checking references ask homeowners about time of finnishing there project and if there were any delays. Play it safe because this is your investment for a long time. Also you might check into water powered back up sump pump since you are in a flood zone. It cost a little more but can save you in the long run. Most water powered systems cost around 150 to 200 dollars to purchase and about 100 dollars to install. If your power is lost due to a storm or something your regular sump pump will not work due to it requires electricity. Just thought I would leave some friendly advice for you. Good Luck...


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## Crusnik (Feb 1, 2007)

Finally got a qoute!! It has been hard finding people who do this sort of work..

Here it is... What do you guys think?


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## rocksteady (Nov 19, 2007)

I think it sounds like a good deal. It is a lot of work. Make sure to get a few estimates. Also see if you have any plug holes in walls leaking. Plug holes come from the bars used to support the forms for the concrette pouring process. If you have leaking holes, you can dig out the hole and then you can put the proper size rubber stopper in them and patch with hydraulic cement or vinyl patch repair. Patch all cracks in walls before framing process also.


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## wacor (Feb 22, 2005)

Just a word about back up sump pumps.

the water powered ones are the most dependable. if you have city water and not a well. 

don't get an battery back up sump pump unless you can faithfully exercise it on a regular basis. If they sit for any length of time without running they seize up and won't turn the impeller to move the water.


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## JohnWill (Oct 19, 2002)

One little problem that nobody has mentioned about water powered backup pumps. If the discharge gets blocked, that sucker will fill the basement with water, think about it! I know someone that had this exact thing happen, that's when I removed my water powered one and installed a battery backup model.

Any sump pump can seize, you should check them regularly for function. I check both of mine once a month to make sure they're still functional.


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## wacor (Feb 22, 2005)

JohnWill said:


> One little problem that nobody has mentioned about water powered backup pumps. If the discharge gets blocked, that sucker will fill the basement with water, think about it! I know someone that had this exact thing happen, that's when I removed my water powered one and installed a battery backup model.
> 
> Any sump pump can seize, you should check them regularly for function. I check both of mine once a month to make sure they're still functional.


Well the same problem applies no matter what type of pump if the discharg is plugged I would think.

and the battery back up pumps are garbage. I know a guy that put 20 of them in at an apartment complex and within a year almost every one of them had to be replaced. They are not the same as an A/C sump pump. No comparison in construction and starting torque. only reason you have no problem is you exercise it. i guarantee 90% of the people with one probably are not told that and even it told forget to do that regularly.


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## rocksteady (Nov 19, 2007)

The water powered back up runs completly fine as long as you follow the recomended usage of the product. One thing is they do recommend that you run it once a month. As for it clogging up, you should have no problem if you install it correctly with a check valve in line before the main discharge pipe. Some city req. that you also install a anti back wash on the inlet valve also. I never installed one on a well type water supply. I imagine if you have good water pressure it should run fine. I think I would chance it and install one anyways because it is a lot cheaper to replace a burnt out well pump than all the stuff that can be ruinned in a basement.


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## wacor (Feb 22, 2005)

If you install a water back up and the supply is from a well the problem is when you have no power you will run out of water. The well pump would not burn up. Just won't run due to no power.


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## rocksteady (Nov 19, 2007)

Yeah you do have a point there. I did'nt think about that. Maybe that's why I never put one on a well. I guess if you have a back up generator, that would be the only way.


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## wacor (Feb 22, 2005)

yup


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## JohnWill (Oct 19, 2002)

wacor said:


> Well the same problem applies no matter what type of pump if the discharg is plugged I would think.


You're obviously missing my point.

While it's true that a sump pump can't function with the discharge blocked, the water powered pump will actually work as hard as it can to fill the basement with water! The other pumps would merely not be able to remove the water that's coming in naturally. There is a difference, I think you need to rethink your answer.

I've actually seen this, a neighbor in my previous house went away on vacation and the outlet of their pump was blocked at the street by construction on the curbs. We had a rainstorm, the pump tried to run, and it proceeded to fill the basement with about 4 feet of water!. They also had a large water bill in addition to the other damage.


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## wacor (Feb 22, 2005)

JohnWill said:


> You're obviously missing my point.
> 
> While it's true that a sump pump can't function with the discharge blocked, the water powered pump will actually work as hard as it can to fill the basement with water! The other pumps would merely not be able to remove the water that's coming in naturally. There is a difference, I think you need to rethink your answer.
> 
> I've actually seen this, a neighbor in my previous house went away on vacation and the outlet of their pump was blocked at the street by construction on the curbs. We had a rainstorm, the pump tried to run, and it proceeded to fill the basement with about 4 feet of water!. They also had a large water bill in addition to the other damage.


Well you got me thinking.

A city water back up is nothing more than a deep well jet pump. The water source goes thru a venturi and a nozzle. As it goes thru this device known as a jet assembly there is a vacuum created as the water passes thru the assembly. In the case of the jet pump as the water reaches the pump it then gets resent down a drive pipe. In the case of this sump pump application the water goes outside.

I suspect in your example that the problem was due to a ruptured pipe as drain and waste pipe is not rated for pressure. In which case you are correct about a sump pump being safer as they are a low head and high volume pump.

I made a home made city water back up that can be run manually. I figure if I am not home I can figure a way to get insurance to cover me.


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## JohnWill (Oct 19, 2002)

In my last house, after his example, I also started using my water backup as a manual solution.


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## Crusnik (Feb 1, 2007)

If you guys think that quote is sound, I think I may go for it. I have found a few others that will do parts of what this water proofing company offers, but I can't find any others in the area that will do EVERYTHING. I can kind of see why too. The city I live in isn't high risk for floods, only the people living next to bodies of water (which there aren't too many).


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## Crusnik (Feb 1, 2007)

First things first. There are 3 down spouts outside that go straight to the ground. I suspect they are one of the main causes for water in the basement. I need to get myself alot of PVC pipe, a shovle... And try to get it connected to the drain system that the other down spouts are connected to.


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