# Want to do some web design



## djcool563 (Jul 11, 2005)

Ok i want to make my own website soon. so my question is if i want to get into web site designs what should i know besides HTML. I have some knowlegde of it. Anything else i should know?


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## aewarnick (Sep 3, 2002)

Unless you want to rewrite code for every page you need to learn something like php.


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## djcool563 (Jul 11, 2005)

i heard CSS. i am trying to learn it right now.anyhting else i should try to learn?


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## aewarnick (Sep 3, 2002)

You'll also need to learn javascript.

css might be like php. I don't know. Maybe someone else here can explain the difference between php and css.


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## djcool563 (Jul 11, 2005)

anyone else?


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## Gibble (Oct 10, 2001)

CSS and PHP are NOTHING, absolutely NOTHING alike.

Simply put PHP is a server side programming language, used to create HTML pages "on the fly".

CSS stands for Cascading Style Sheets, these are used to help design the look of your data. HTML is supposed to be used to mark your document, define what are headings, what are links, what are paragraphs ect. 

You aren't supposed to use font tags, and other "display" type tags to define what your document looks like...at least not anymore. You use CSS.

This seperates your document (data layer), from it's style and look (design layer), Since your style may change, you keep one CSS file and each document references it. A change to your CSS file will be reflected throughout all the HTML files that reference it. So if you want to change all your links to be green, you change it once, in your CSS file, and you're done, all the links on all your HTML pages are now green. You do not need to go to each link, in each HTML file and change their colour.

You can learn more about CSS at w3schools


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## djcool563 (Jul 11, 2005)

Thanks gibble. I was looking as w3schools thats where i am learing CSS. could you explain more about PHP and what you mean by its to creat pages on the fly.Thanks


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## Gibble (Oct 10, 2001)

Get a firm grasp of css and html, use them a bit, then look into PHP, it's completely different, and will be nearly impossible to learn and use if you don't truly understand html first.


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## voxunity (Jun 29, 2005)

You should start with xhtml/css then php/mysql


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## php guy (Dec 17, 2004)

Just my experiences with teaching web design...
You should learn, in this order..
1.HTML
2.CSS
3.Javascript
4.XHTML standards
5.PHP or ASP.net
6.MySql or Access
7.XML (starting to grow rapidly)


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## djcool563 (Jul 11, 2005)

Ok i know this sounds stupid but can i get by just by learning the basics of each right now?i have to meet a deadline on a website design by the end of the month. but i am planing on learning them all the best i can soon.


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## Gibble (Oct 10, 2001)

...you have a project to do...and you don't know what you are doing?


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## djcool563 (Jul 11, 2005)

No when i set this goal for myself i thought it was just going to be HTML. But then i got on here and heard that i need to know more then just plain HTML to do this.


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## Gibble (Oct 10, 2001)

well...how do you figure? We don't even know what you are trying to do...you may just need html and css.


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## djcool563 (Jul 11, 2005)

Well i will try to make it in just HTML and CSS for right now if that doesnt work i will just learn more.


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## Gibble (Oct 10, 2001)

well...what ARE you trying to make?


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## djcool563 (Jul 11, 2005)

I am trying to make a site about tech news. i will be posting articles and maybe have a blogg it will not be anything complicated to start out with. I just want a nice clean design that is simple to use and looks good.


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## php guy (Dec 17, 2004)

Well, useing a SSI isnt _required_ for a news site, but it is very practical. You could go throught all your sites and update every little section by hand, or you could use a SSI like php where you just use a form you made to upload a file from your local station, then it auto sends it to all the places you want. SSI is required for a blog.

So I would suggest learning learning atlest the basics of php,asp, asp.net or perl, then getting pre made news/blog scripts from a script site, then modifiying it to your needs.


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## djcool563 (Jul 11, 2005)

Thanks PHP guy. Which one do you recomend i learn? I know PHP is used alot so do you recomend i learn that? Also do you have any good online tutorials for PHP?


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## aewarnick (Sep 3, 2002)

I think that asp and asp.net are for Microsoft servers whereas php is for Linux. I prefer Linux. I avoid M$ as much as possible. Use php.

One of the best ways to learn is to download other people's site code. You can download mine if you like.


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## php guy (Dec 17, 2004)

Well, if you already know javascript, its quite easy to learn asp with Jscript, same structure, minus even handlers, but I guess some could argue that php is almost the same structure as javascript also.

I personally prefer php, it's a rapidly growing language, and easy to use. On the other hand, it doesn't have the huge amount of backup like MS's Visual Studios has for asp/asp.net. I would suggest looking at all the options first (ASP w/ Jscript, ASP w/ VB, ASP.net, PHP, and perl) and seeing how they are set up to write on a page or another file, then pick which set up you like most.


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## New Zeal (Nov 2, 2005)

I disagree with the need to learn javascript before php. I'm a newbie and have avoided JS. Everywhere people are moving away from it. 

The biggest blog around is phpBB2. Just do a search on that name go to the site and download it, It's free and there is plenty of support and forums and stuff. I highly recommend searching for scripts that do particular little tasks and inserting them/modifying them into your own code rather than starting from scratch. Then you can learn from what you've got in front of you. There is plenty of free stuff on the net. People are ever so generous!

You can build a good website with HTML, CSS and php. For a learner the php includes function is the first one to use. Go seek and ye shall find.


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## Gibble (Oct 10, 2001)

New Zeal said:


> I disagree with the need to learn javascript before php. I'm a newbie and have avoided JS. Everywhere people are moving away from it.


Correction, people are moving away from extraneous uses of javascript.  Javascript itself is still a useful and required tool when used properly.


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## New Zeal (Nov 2, 2005)

I'm sure Jscript is useful. I don't think a newbie should be told to use it before using php. There's the problem of search engines coming across Jscript code and not going any further that is the main problem with it and why people avoid it.

What do you mean about extraneous?


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## Gibble (Oct 10, 2001)

New Zeal said:


> I'm sure Jscript is useful. I don't think a newbie should be told to use it before using php. There's the problem of search engines coming across Jscript code and not going any further that is the main problem with it and why people avoid it.
> 
> What do you mean about extraneous?


What are you talking about?

Search engines don't come across javascript and stop. It's about how you use it and include it. If you had the javascript inline as opposed to in a resource file, the search engine may not get to your content as they don't always read the entire file, only the first X bytes.

By extraneous use, I mean all the stupid little javascripts that add mouse tails and other extraneous junk.

Professional design doesn't include waste like that.

It's like flash, everybody jumped on the bandwagon, and used it for the sake of using it, where it wasn't necessarily required. Now most designers and developers have learned and are scaling back the use of flash to what it's designed for.


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## php guy (Dec 17, 2004)

Zeal, 
First off, there's a difference between javascript and Jscript, javascript is the <script> type that many people are used to. Jscript is MS version, mostly used for asp.

When talking about blogs, you can't include javscript for comparison in the languages, seeing how javascript isn't a SSI. If you are going to use blogs to compare, use SSIs like php, asp, asp.net, and perl. What you are doing is like comparing css to mySql, they are nothing alike and are used for separate tasks.

And about the search engine, Gibble is 100% right. Anyone that uses javascript correctly should always use an alternative for non javascript users, like if your navigation is based on DHTML (css and javascript together), then you should include a <noscript> navigation alternative, which all users without javascript enabled will see. This goes the same for the search robots/crawlers, they will see the noscript and follow that also. Javascript is a great addition to web development, and anyone who knows how to use it can make a page with tons of functionality.


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## New Zeal (Nov 2, 2005)

php guy said:


> And about the search engine, Gibble is 100% right. Anyone that uses javascript correctly should always use an alternative for non javascript users, like if your navigation is based on DHTML (css and javascript together), then you should include a <noscript> navigation alternative, which all users without javascript enabled will see. This goes the same for the search robots/crawlers, they will see the noscript and follow that also. Javascript is a great addition to web development, and anyone who knows how to use it can make a page with tons of functionality.


There are many things here I didn't know and I thank-you for your response. These complications are why I have avoided javascript so far. It goes beyond the realm of simplicity. I may be wrong but some people are using HTML and PHP to do all the things that javascript has been able to do in the past. It avoids having to learn too many languages and make too many concessions for different browsers and functionalities etc. All of the things I want to do I can do quite adequately without it such as databases, forms, newsletters, blogs, downloads, security etc etc. Tell me something I can only do in javascript and not in any combination of php, HTML and CSS?


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## php guy (Dec 17, 2004)

New Zeal said:


> Tell me something I can only do in javascript and not in any combination of php, HTML and CSS?


*Anything* after a page has been loaded...

You are missing the fact that PHP and javascript are two different langauges. They arent designed to do the same stuff. Although they can both do similar stuff like mess with cookies, but a majority of the features are different. Anything to do with DHTML *requires* javascript, JS is the only thing that can modify a page after it has been loaded. JS adds tons of functionality to a page when used correctly that PHP couldn't tutch. You are trying to substitue langauges in for JS, but some things just can't replace JS. You should get to know the langauge and the features of it before you put it down like that.

To answer your question, heres a list of things that JS can do that PHP, HTML, or CSS can't:
Timeouts
Image changing
Page load error handleing
Set window size
Open new window with preferances
Change form value
On page form validation
Div visibility for DHTML
Div reposition
Add favorites
Key press handler
Close window
Close/refresh target window
Fancy tool tips
Image slide show
Change HTML after page load
Client side XML parseing

If you would like me to go on, please ask


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## brendandonhu (Jul 8, 2002)

> Tell me something I can only do in javascript and not in any combination of php, HTML and CSS?


Checking the system clock, client-side calculations, validating a form before its submitted, resizing a window or image, checking the user's screen resolution, hitting the browser's "Back" or "Forward" buttons, a "Bookmark Us" link, should I keep going?
PHP runs on the server and can't interact with the client at all. HTML is for static layout. How can you use those to replace javascript?


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## Gibble (Oct 10, 2001)

Ideally you use a combination of them ALL when each is suited best.

Ideally you do some simple client side data validation with javascript...to cut down on requests to your webserver and keep things running quickly.

You still validate all the data server side with PHP (or asp, perl, etc).

And you need HTML obviously.


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## aewarnick (Sep 3, 2002)

The biggest thing to remember when comparing php and javascript is that php runs on the server only. And javascript runs on each client computer. It took me a little while to understand that.


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## New Zeal (Nov 2, 2005)

Thanks guys

There's a lot of stuff there that I didn't know and I am sure djcool doesn't either. However, for a siimple start off site HTML and CSS are sufficient. The next step would be server side includes (SSI) or php includes (for ease of handling of repeated code). PHP includes is better than SSI because you don't need to be on-line to test it. However it depends on your usage. I guess if images are important then javascript is an advantage. The key is where to put your focus first when learning internet languages and its better to know one or two well than a whole lot averagely. Even with my limited knowledge I can see a lot of things on the list you have given me that can be done in php, maybe not as well, but we are not building Porsches yet. All I am trying to do is give myself quality web page exposure without the massive web design bills from professionals who know what all these different things mean.

What are the benefits of client side over server side?


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## brendandonhu (Jul 8, 2002)

SSI can be tested offline exactly the same as PHP.
Please let us know how you can do any of those things in PHP.


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## php guy (Dec 17, 2004)

New Zeal said:


> What are the benefits of client side over server side?


Well, if you look back one page...


> Timeouts
> Image changing
> Page load error handleing
> Set window size
> ...


and


> Checking the system clock, client-side calculations, validating a form before its submitted, resizing a window or image, checking the user's screen resolution, hitting the browser's "Back" or "Forward" buttons, a "Bookmark Us" link, should I keep going?


Client side scripting can do ALOT of things that a SSI can't. You aren't grasping the concept that once a page has been sent the the user, SSI's can do anything to it untill the user requests another page.



New Zeal said:


> PHP includes is better than SSI because you don't need to be on-line to test it.


And here I thought php *was* a SSI


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## New Zeal (Nov 2, 2005)

There are probably a lot of things I am not grasping. Data validation is one thing that can be done with php and html is it not, and it is better to do it server-side for security. I think that a lot of the functions that have been quoted are relatively extraneous (eg fancy tool tips). As a web developer you don't have much control over client side functions and whether or not users have a version of Java that enables the functionality you put into it. I do not doubt the usefulness of javascript. I notice there is quite a bit in the source code for this page. I'm a newbie and everywhere I go for tips I am finding that people are avoiding JS and finding ways to replace it. 

This has gone a long way from djcool wanting to create a simple web page for tech news by next week!


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## brendandonhu (Jul 8, 2002)

And now we're confusing Java and Javascript as well...


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## php guy (Dec 17, 2004)

New Zeal said:


> There are probably a lot of things I am not grasping. Data validation is one thing that can be done with php and html is it not, and it is better to do it server-side for security.


True, SSI's can validate forms, but validation can also be done with JS, and with less requests to your server. I really don't see a reason to go as far a SSI security to do something that is to the benefit of the users.



> As a web developer you don't have much control over client side functions and whether or not users have a version of Java that enables the functionality you put into it.


 Don't mix Java up with javascript, two *very* different languages that do very different things. Developers can not use excuses like javascriptless clients nowadays. First: you *never* make a site completely client reliant. Second: you provide an alternative for the no scripts users with a <noscript> section. Third: Not a majority of the people out there have javascript disabled.



> I'm a newbie and everywhere I go for tips I am finding that people are avoiding JS and finding ways to replace it.


You are the first person I've ever talked to that wanted to completely avoid javascript. I have not meet another developer out there that doesn't find JS useful. What they are probably talking about is use for mouse chasers or back ground effects or non productive stuff like that


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## New Zeal (Nov 2, 2005)

Hello, I never said I wanted to completely avoid using it. There is probably plenty of it on my site. I use snippets of code I get from the net, edit bits to customize and then use php include to add them as separate pages. No need for me personally to learn javascript, java, jscript or any other. Btw I appreciate knowing that they are all different things! I am sure that I will learn some javawhatever, but as a newbie it is not essential. It's amazing what can be found on the net to facilitate web development, such as code generators for databases and forms and whatever you fancy. All a newbie needs to do is to understand the processes and make changes to suit their own site. There's no need to learn a whole lot of code from the ground up. That is what this thread is about.

When you first started javascript was probably the in thing. I have a popdown menu system that is written entirely in html. The authors wrote it because they wanted to avoid javascript. I use php counters, newsletters, blogs and whatever else I find useful. As a result of avoiding javascript on my main pages search engines can find their way quickly to my content and I have a high ranking given that I am getting almost nil traffic at this stage. That was the philosophy behind avoiding javascript and I have no reason to doubt it. I believe that content is the key for search engine visibility and that javascript gets in the way of that. AM I not right? Years ago title and description tags were important and it didn't matter if the rest of the file was covered with javascript. Now everyone is pushing for clean code, good content with key words well spread and regular updates. It's a fashion thing really, like with HiFi systems. Units with all the fangy dangy dials and buttons are out, and simple sleek streamlined units are in.

If djcool is still reading this thread, there are news programmes (in php) freely available on the net ready to go and only require an 'includes' command to add to your site.

My site is at www.passingphase.co.nz. It is not a Porsche but it does the job. I am going for ease and simplicty and adding features as I need them and learn about them. The next step is form based e-mail to reduce spam and keep data on MySql so it can be accessed by multiple computers. If I get rich, then later I might employ a web developer who knows what he's doing. In the meantime I'm having fun.

I write this so as to publicly expose my web development philosophy to critisizm, and if necessary, ridicule.


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## php guy (Dec 17, 2004)

New Zeal said:


> There's no need to learn a whole lot of code from the ground up. That is what this thread is about.


Actually, if you look at the first post...


djcool563 said:


> Ok i want to make my own website soon. so my question is if i want to get into web site designs what should i know besides HTML. I have some knowlegde of it. Anything else i should know?


He was asking what he should learn, not what he should know to avoid learning.



> I have a popdown menu system that is written entirely in html.


 If it's anything besides a input with links, please show me what page it is on.



> As a result of avoiding javascript on my main pages search engines can find their way quickly to my content and I have a high ranking given that I am getting almost nil traffic at this stage. That was the philosophy behind avoiding javascript and I have no reason to doubt it. I believe that content is the key for search engine visibility and that javascript gets in the way of that. AM I not right?


 No you are not right. Why do you keep saying this? Javascript in no way negatively effects your rank on the search engine. For not even knowing javascript, you sure are saying allot of negative things about it.



> Now everyone is pushing for clean code, good content with key words well spread and regular updates.


 How can you say that when you site isn't even to html 4.1 standard, which isn't even considered clean, xhtml is where clean is at.



> The next step is form based e-mail to reduce spam and keep data on MySql so it can be accessed by multiple computers.


 What are you talking about? You don't need a database of any kind to access data from multiple computers. Any computer hooked up to the WAN of the Internet can get to your site. MySql is for storing small to large amounts of data that can be manipulated and accessed in a easy format.



> If I get rich, then later I might employ a web developer who knows what he's doing. In the meantime I'm having fun.


 Then please don't spreed false information on a good web language that offers lots of functionality to a page.


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## php guy (Dec 17, 2004)

Ok, New Zeal, try this. Go to a search engine like google, then type in something like "news articles" or anything else. Go the to the pages that are on the first page of the results, the highest ranked ones, then view the source of them. I guarantee that a majority of the pages on the first results page with have javascript in them.


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## New Zeal (Nov 2, 2005)

Okay, excuse my ignorance. I must have been getting the wrong drift from all the articles I have been reading. 

There are popdown menus on the SOHTech and E-Party pages of my website.

SO you are saying there is no problem with javascript and if I put it right at the beginning of all my major pages before the content it will have no effect on search engines. You are saying that there is no argument for sweeping all javascript that I might use into peripheral files that I access through 'includes' so that search engines have unimpeded access to my content.


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## php guy (Dec 17, 2004)

New Zeal said:


> I have a popdown menu system that is written entirely in html.





New Zeal said:


> There are popdown menus on the SOHTech and E-Party pages of my website.


First off, those menus a made with DHTML (combination of javascript and css), defiantly not pure html. If you look at your external file "csshover.htc", a majority of the file is, non other then, javascript. Seeing how it is a very big and inefficient script, ill just quote the first 4 lines,


> var csshoverReg = /(^|\s)(([^a]([^ ]+)?)|(a([^#.][^ ]+)+)): (hover|active)/i,
> currentSheet, doc = window.document, hoverEvents = [], activators = {
> onhover:{on:'onmouseover', off:'onmouseout'},
> onactive:{on:'onmousedown', off:'onmouseup'}





> You are saying that there is no argument for sweeping all javascript that I might use into peripheral files that I access through 'includes' so that search engines have unimpeded access to my content.


 I said it before, I'll say it again. Javascript in no way negatively effects you ranking on a search engine. Also, search engines don't care about the SSI including a file, when the page is sent, everything the SSI does is already done, and the crawler doesn't even know you used a SSI or did anything anything server side, unless you did something with the header.


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## New Zeal (Nov 2, 2005)

I didn't look to see if there was javascript in the .htc file. That file was only necessary because IE doesn't support the particular CSS or HTML that was used whereas other browsers do. It does not represent a barrier to search engines getting to my content and in order to use this I did not need to learn or know anything about javascript. 

Following is a passage from Site-Reference.com:

"Navigation Menus - Website navigation schemes, such as JavaScript drop-down menus or Flash banners, can really help to create a unique and visually pleasing website design that is sure to help it stand-out amongst all other websites. Unfortunately, these same creative elements also make it extremely difficult, and in some instances impossible, for search engines to properly crawl the website, therefore limiting the website's search engine exposure.

There are, of course, solutions to this that will appease both the website designer and search engine optimizer. As a suggestion, consider using standard rollovers and/or CSS formatting to develop a graphically pleasing navigation menu. Unlike most JavaScript menus, neither standard rollovers nor CSS will 'hide' your website's links, allowing search engines to freely crawl and index your websites pages.

If a JavaScript navigation menu is truly needed to attain the desired look and feel of your website, than consider adding text-based links elsewhere on your website's pages, such as the bottom. Bottom navigation schemes consisting of text-based links are becoming very common now-a-days, as they ultimately provide your website's visitors, and search engines, with another source for navigating. Another suggestion would be to develop and allow access to a sitemap containing all of your website's pages."

I have no idea who the author is and it is not the only article I have come across that follows the same drift. I am having difficulty reconciling what you are saying with what I am reading elsewhere.


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## php guy (Dec 17, 2004)

If the author of this article was the same one that made the script you used, lets take into account that he didn't even specify the type or language of <script> that was used for your script. He made a unnecessarily large script that could be made in a few lines by someone that knows JS. If you spent the time learning this language that you did putting it down, you could have learned enough JS to make your own menu system that doesn't require a nearly as big a file as the premade one that you are using.

If it was not the same person, in his reference to crawlers, he didn't even bring into fact of the <noscript>. Like I said earlier, ALWAYS provide an alternative to javascriptless clients. Even if not, the script you have on your site simply makes a div visible and hidden when you hover or click a handler. Maybe if the whole div was made by innerhtml function in javascript, it would effect it, but yours, the div is there in the html that is sent, so that wouldn't effect it. Even if the script was made with innerhtml, which yours is not, a <noscript>, or alternative links maybe at the bottom of the page, or even declared in the head, would make no obstacle to crawlers.



> That file was only necessary because IE doesn't support the particular CSS or HTML that was used whereas other browsers do.


 Actually, the javascript is required to handle the events and made the visibility change. CSS and HTML alone cannot do that, they are static once the page is sent.


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## New Zeal (Nov 2, 2005)

So JS handles all the active things that happen on the client's browser. It is active, while CSS and HTML are passive? 

The guy who wrote the article is different from the people who wrote the menu code. Chances are he doesn't know as much as you about JS.

I'll have to have another look at JS. There're obviously a lot of myths going round in cyberspace right now.

Many thanks for your time and patience and I apologies for being misled.


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## php guy (Dec 17, 2004)

New Zeal said:


> So JS handles all the active things that happen on the client's browser. It is active, while CSS and HTML are passive?


Yep, langauges like html and css are static by themselves, they only change when you, or a script you made, physically change the file. Languages like PHP, ASP, or perl all take place before the request is sent to the user, and once the user gets the page, they can't modify it, until the users refreshes or sends a new request. Languages like javascript and actionscript run while the user has the page active, and only takes place on the client side.

In a sense, the article is right, but it only gives the problem, and not the full solution. It gives a few example, like the links on the bottom or a page map, but fails to even mention the <noscript> or tags.

If you take a look into the language, you will learn that its very useful if used right, and can offer allot more functionality and customization then using a premade script.

If you do decide to look more into it, good luck and have fun :up:


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## New Zeal (Nov 2, 2005)

Thanks a ton


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## php guy (Dec 17, 2004)

No problem, I just hope that djcool563 got his question answered.


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## nms (Nov 7, 2005)

hey guys

one thing is certain in the realms of web development. So much speculation! Especially in relation to search engines and their ability to crawl and index your pages.

my website is djnemesis(dot)com And currently my navigation bar is flash with no text based navigation.. however.. google has 31 pages of my site indexed.. as you can see by going to google and typing site:djnemesis.com. What do you guys make of this? To me this seems to put holes in that theory of the engines not being able to index flash sites.. which to me is great and makes things much less tedious. I would really like your viewspoints on this though based on these facts. Also if a couple people feel like looking at my source code and telling me what are the biggest flaws that would be great too. I'm currently wanting to refine my skills and knowledge as well since now I'm being offered some larger accounts and need to tighten things up a bit.


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## php guy (Dec 17, 2004)

Hey nms, and welcome to TSG.

I never develop with flash, in fact, I only used it once a year ago, so I cannot answer on behalf of flash.

One theory though...
Has that page always been flash only? It may have originally been indexed with links to follow, then kept track of those links as individuals. Also, you have a few pages that link to your site, as seen here , so google may be following the links on their page to individual pages on your site.

Like I said already, I'm not a flash guru, but this would be my guess.


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## nms (Nov 7, 2005)

All of the sites that link back to mine are just linking to the main page.. so that wouldn't be it. The site has been fully indexed even though it's navigation has been only flash. Can anyone else comment on this? Also did anyone look at my source code on my site for any big noticeable flaws?
thanks for the help


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## New Zeal (Nov 2, 2005)

It seems to me that using javascript or Flash is fine so long as search engines have other means of accessing all your pages such as through other links and pagemaps etc. and that the code makes exception for users who do not have it enabled.


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## php guy (Dec 17, 2004)

The only thing I can think of then is how you submitted it. Did you use the actual google submit or did you use some type of submit serves?

If not, it seems as though the internet gods are smiling down on you.


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## nms (Nov 7, 2005)

I think I originally submitted it to google. I don't have any backup navigation for non flash users, plus I have no clickable sitemap or alternate text based navigation at all. There must be some way the search engines are actually reading the flash.. despite the past theories. No one yet to spot any big flaws in the source code for my site? It's probably somewhat messy I'm thinking due to my amateur web dev skills.


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## php guy (Dec 17, 2004)

If your page is all flash anyways, then theres not much we can spot, seeing how flash isn't made through html or any web based langauge.


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## Gibble (Oct 10, 2001)

nms said:


> hey guys
> 
> one thing is certain in the realms of web development. So much speculation! Especially in relation to search engines and their ability to crawl and index your pages.
> 
> my website is djnemesis(dot)com And currently my navigation bar is flash with no text based navigation.. however.. google has 31 pages of my site indexed.. as you can see by going to google and typing site:djnemesis.com. What do you guys make of this? To me this seems to put holes in that theory of the engines not being able to index flash sites.. which to me is great and makes things much less tedious. I would really like your viewspoints on this though based on these facts. Also if a couple people feel like looking at my source code and telling me what are the biggest flaws that would be great too. I'm currently wanting to refine my skills and knowledge as well since now I'm being offered some larger accounts and need to tighten things up a bit.


Well, the spider comes to your site and there's a hidden link to /html/text.html. So it crawls there, and that page has a bunch of text links on it as well that it indexes and crawls. Also any inbound links to specific pages from other sites will be crawled.


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## Gibble (Oct 10, 2001)

Oh, forgot to mention, your text.html page, doesn't look right in Firefox.


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## php guy (Dec 17, 2004)

Once again, Gibble is right.

```
[URL=./html/text.html][IMG alt=""]./assets/images/autogen/a_Rectangle_1.gif[/IMG][/URL]
```


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## php guy (Dec 17, 2004)

One question, why do you bother using a blank alt attribute in your image, which isn't required until xhtml, but you make all your html uppercase, which isn't xhtml?

To answer your original question, well one of them at lest, you should run your site through a validator, and fix what errors come up. At the moment, your site doesn't even validate to html 4.0 . If you can, try and get it to at lest html 4.01.


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## Gibble (Oct 10, 2001)

php guy said:


> Once again, Gibble is right.
> 
> ```
> [URL=./html/text.html][IMG alt=""]./assets/images/autogen/a_Rectangle_1.gif[/IMG][/URL]
> ```


I'm always right


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## php guy (Dec 17, 2004)

Gibble said:


> I'm always right


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## New Zeal (Nov 2, 2005)

Thanks for enlightening me php guy

Up to now I feel like I've been a moron as far as javascript (and flash) are concerned. Now I can see the light. There are so many things you can do in php (and others) that you can do in javascript, so I thought, well, why learn both? Now I can see the huge benefits of client-side processing. I notice on the on-line newspapers that I read that the banner and top menu do not disappear with each new page. My website is likely to have a lot of text and I am sure I can load whole sections of text into memory and then use javascript to flick through them on the client side. If it takes the client half an hour to read a section, then they can disconnect during that time if they're on dial up, and someone else can use the phone! 

I realise now that the client-side aspect of javascript is what makes it really neat. As the past few responses have illustrated it is important that search engines are still able to find their way somehow to the content. Now I'm a convert and I take back what I said to djcool.

djcool, where are you? 

Oh never mind.


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## php guy (Dec 17, 2004)

He said let there be light, and there was light  

Glad I could help show you the way :up:


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