# Solved: adding extra outlets



## lexmarks567 (Aug 13, 2006)

If I was to add 2 extra outlets in the garage would I need a permit.The garage is unfinished meaning theres no drywall so everythings exposed. The wood studs and rafters.


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## SouthParkXP101 (Jun 2, 2006)

what are the outlets rated? 

regular 120 
or 220


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## SouthParkXP101 (Jun 2, 2006)

i cant see why you would


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## lexmarks567 (Aug 13, 2006)

120 on a 15 amp circuit.there are 2 outlets in the garage now but I want to add 2 on the other side of the garage so I can have better access.


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## SouthParkXP101 (Jun 2, 2006)

i cant imagine why you need a permit to do that


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## O111111O (Aug 27, 2005)

Depends on local/regional electrical code.

You probably do need a permit. Having said that, VERY FEW people ever obtain permits for activity like that.

If in doubt, call the municipality where you live. They'll tell you.


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## iltos (Jun 13, 2004)

lexmarks567 said:


> If I was to add 2 extra outlets in the garage would I need a permit.The garage is unfinished meaning theres no drywall so everythings exposed. The wood studs and rafters.


the uniform building code technically requires a permit for something even as insignificant as this....but it's nearly an impossibility to enforce....i view its "requirement" as an easy way for a city to pick up a couple of bucks....

if it was my house, i wouldn't sweat it. 

since the walls are exposed, if you're planning on doing it to code, in most locations you'll need to run flex


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## hewee (Oct 26, 2001)

I say as long as you know how to do then do it without a permit. But really a permit is needed by most all local/regional building code. I worked in one town that was the worse I ever seen about doing things because you needed a permit to replace or put a fence, sidewalk or anything at all that most places you don't need a permit.


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## Knotbored (Jun 5, 2004)

Careful who you even tell (if you decide to do it yourself.)
Some communities require that the entire house be brought up to the present electric code if even so little as a relocated switch. 
Same goes with plumbing. Moving a sink to another wall might require replacing the flushie with a 2 gallon wonder.
Go ahead and do it yourself, but use an instruction manual-example-use plates over the stud holes so future walboard screws or nails don't penetrate the cable or use conduit or flex.
Good luck


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## JohnWill (Oct 19, 2002)

I do suggest you make sure the installation meets the local electrical code. I agree with the masses, I sure don't run out to get a permit every time I change a light bulb.


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## lexmarks567 (Aug 13, 2006)

Ok got 3 outlets and boxes (PVC boxes for new contrucion) the wall plates.I have got wire staples from a left over project.I will get wire next week.14/2 W/G NM cable either 50 or 100 feet I will mesure to see.


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## iltos (Jun 13, 2004)

lexmarks567 said:


> Ok got 3 outlets and boxes (PVC boxes for new contrucion) the wall plates.I have got wire staples from a left over project.I will get wire next week.14/2 W/G NM cable either 50 or 100 feet I will mesure to see.


if it matters to you, check the code first, lex....in CA, outlet circuits need to be run in #12...and, unless you're going to cover those walls, boxes should be metal, wire pulled in flex.


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## lexmarks567 (Aug 13, 2006)

Im going by whats in the garage already. theres 2 outlets in the garage connected by 14/2 NM cable the wire runs inside the wall between the studes just like in a house.then it goes to a juncion box on the rafters.heres a painting of it I will take pictures later of whats there right now.

the black represents the wall and studes the blue line is the wire and the red boxes are the outlets and juncion box. I have a book called wire smpilfied based on the 2005 NEC the next version won't be out till 2008


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## buck52 (Mar 9, 2001)

Howdy

I believe the National Electric code calls for #12 in garages only... or 20 amp curcuits

If adding to an existing 15 amp curcuit there is no need for #12... it requires a 20 amp breaker... Can't have 20amp curcuit breaker on 15 amp wire..... 14 is the gauge to use... if the whole rest of the garage/room is exposed studs and wiring, no need to use metal boxes or flex... no need to update to current code for such a small job...* If* you know what you are doing ... just do it...

In the end, how would anyone know it was not done from the begining...

dislexis edit

buck


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## johnpost (Dec 18, 2005)

lexmarks567 said:


> If I was to add 2 extra outlets in the garage would I need a permit.The garage is unfinished meaning theres no drywall so everythings exposed. The wood studs and rafters.


 Other people have addressed the permit issue saying technically
you must have it in most places.

Current (most USA) require new circuits for this use be 20A
requiring 12AWG wire. If you are adding onto old work, a 15A
circuit using 14AWG wire then it would be allowed to keep it
the same.

I would just make sure that only two outlets are on the circuit
so that you could safely add another two. With open construction
run the new wire in the middle of the studs or in ways it can't
get snagged. if you run between studs the the holes need to
be in the center of the studs. you need to prevent this wire
from being snagged or pushed, if a wall covering isn't put over 
the wire where it is in the air between studs then you need
to nail a board between the studs that covers the wire, 
alternately you could place a board behind the wire and
tack it down.

It wouldn't be a bad idea to make sure other exposed wiring
in garage is protected so. It is easy to snag open wires with
garden tools and ladders.

You sould put a ground fault interrupt recepticle as the first
outlet (this would mean replacing the one there now with
a GFI outlet) and wire the second outlet in the load terminals
of the GFI outlet (reuse the outlet that was there first if it
is in good shape).


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## lexmarks567 (Aug 13, 2006)

Yes Im adding on to old work. currently there are 2 outlets on a exsitsing 15amp circuit.and I just want to add on to the 2 outlet circuit.


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## buck52 (Mar 9, 2001)

Just do it...

I have a builders license in my state and while I am not condoning it...what you are thinking of doing is done all the time accross the country... If every homeowner pulled a permit according to the strict letter of the law for projects such as the one you are going to do, the local inspectors would get nothing done... 

If you are comfortable/confident with it...go for it and forget the permit...

ps... shut the breaker off before you start... 

Edit: Is there anything else on the curcuit before the light/junction in your picture other than a switch for the light, which is of no consequence


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## blues_harp28 (Jan 9, 2005)

Hi the only consideration here in the UK is insurance.
All electical work here has to be done by a certified electrician [new rules this year] just in case the unthinkable happens.
Although as has been said it's not the most difficult of jobs and many go ahead and just do it.
My only question is how old is the existing wiring?
Adding new to old can overheat the existing wiring.


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## buck52 (Mar 9, 2001)

Howdy blues_harp28

That would also be a consideration here if it could be proved...
The laws, atleast in my state, have just recently changed as well... Used to be that the homeowner could pull the permit and do the work as long as it was inspected... no more...licensed electrician must pull the permit and do the work...

plastic work boxes and 14/2 w/ground does not sound to old to me

are you saying you would get a permit?


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## blues_harp28 (Jan 9, 2005)

Hi buck52 no I wouldn't get a permit..but have worked over 30 years in building trade for my sins.
It's an easy job to do and as in many cases the more we think..ask ??s about something the more problems we seem to uncover.
I think all possible concerns have been covered.
lexmarks567 let us know how it all goes.


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## lexmarks567 (Aug 13, 2006)

yeah I will So far I got the boxes Mounted and the holes drilled.I will pick up the wire tuesday. Measured the total the run and its 38FT so I will get a box of 50 Ft $28.88


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## lexmarks567 (Aug 13, 2006)

OK I got the wire went with 100FT so If I have to I can replace the old wireing if it comes to that.


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## buck52 (Mar 9, 2001)

you have given no indication that the old wire needs replacing...

are you not telling us something?


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## lexmarks567 (Aug 13, 2006)

buck52 said:


> you have given no indication that the old wire needs replacing...
> 
> are you not telling us something?


 No no but the wiring is 20+ As according to a permit on the wall the garage was custom built in the 80s by fuller garage builders


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## JohnWill (Oct 19, 2002)

lexmarks567 said:


> yeah I will So far I got the boxes Mounted and the holes drilled.I will pick up the wire tuesday. Measured the total the run and its 38FT so I will get a box of 50 Ft $28.88


Man, that is some expensive wire!


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## lexmarks567 (Aug 13, 2006)

cheapest they got and the 100Ft that I ended up going with was $53 includind tax


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## JohnWill (Oct 19, 2002)

Well, I did some looking, and prices have gone up since I bought wire!  I didn't realize that it was so expensive nowadays. I'm glad I have a big spool of 12-3 and still some 14-3 around. Maybe it'll come back down in price before I need more.


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## GoneForNow (Jul 22, 2001)

hewee said:


> I worked in one town that was the worse I ever seen about doing things because you needed a permit to replace or put a fence, sidewalk or anything at all that most places you don't need a permit.


A quick hijack.

I know a little town just like that. Its a revenue raising device pure and simple. They ticketed a client of mine for replacing his mailbox without a permit.  I sued the town in federal court for violation of federal law (woke their arses right up), all mailboxes standards are regulated by federal law. The town lack the authority to regulate and/or inspect the mailboxes.

Hijack done.


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## hewee (Oct 26, 2001)

gbrumb,

Now that is crazy and going to far so glad you put them in there place.  I even see mail boxes here in my town that are in violation of federal law but there are up at the top pf a fence that I know is too high but they have no done anything about it.
I worked at another housing track that they put in the group type of mail boxes you see so many places no days. The post office will give you the boxes too. Will this track was builded right up to other older homes. These older homes all had there own mail box at there home. The one owner did not like to have to walk down the street to get his mail and want it to come to his home like the other older homes and the home next door. He was told no that you can not do that. But he did not give up and won and got to put a mail box at his house.


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## JohnWill (Oct 19, 2002)

Since we're totally hijacked this thread anyway... 

When I built this house, they told me that I had to put my mailbox on the opposite side of the street from the house. I just stuck it next to my driveway, and the mail's been delivered to it for the last 17 years.


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## wacor (Feb 22, 2005)

lexmarks567 said:


> If I was to add 2 extra outlets in the garage would I need a permit.The garage is unfinished meaning theres no drywall so everythings exposed. The wood studs and rafters.


you live in southeast michigan and you can bet that you need to pull a permit. you can get a homeowners permit and it probably is worth it to protect yourself. years ago a neighbor did wiring in his house and later had a fire. the insurance company did not want to pay off the claim as they thought it was related to the wiring the guy did and there was not permit.


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## wacor (Feb 22, 2005)

iltos said:


> the uniform building code technically requires a permit for something even as insignificant as this....but it's nearly an impossibility to enforce....i view its "requirement" as an easy way for a city to pick up a couple of bucks....
> 
> if it was my house, i wouldn't sweat it.
> 
> since the walls are exposed, if you're planning on doing it to code, in most locations you'll need to run flex


I had no idea you were a mulitasker Iltos


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## wacor (Feb 22, 2005)

JohnWill said:


> Well, I did some looking, and prices have gone up since I bought wire!  I didn't realize that it was so expensive nowadays. I'm glad I have a big spool of 12-3 and still some 14-3 around. Maybe it'll come back down in price before I need more.


any thing with copper had huge price increases in 2006


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## wacor (Feb 22, 2005)

further hijcack 

they are trying to regulate the size and locations of mailboxes around where i live as they are considered a driving hazard if somebody ran into one of these.


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## lexmarks567 (Aug 13, 2006)

well I plain to finish up today health permitting


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## hewee (Oct 26, 2001)

JohnWill said:


> Since we're totally hijacked this thread anyway...
> 
> When I built this house, they told me that I had to put my mailbox on the opposite side of the street from the house. I just stuck it next to my driveway, and the mail's been delivered to it for the last 17 years.


Anyone getting mail at home should have the same rights. My dad all the mail boxes are up by the front door so you know that takes them a lot more time then a box out at driveway like so many also had then the 80's came and they started the grouping of mail boxes. So I say move your up by your front door if you want to. My dad had to move his because of the new dog he got that was ok with the mailman but then he put in his 30 years and they got a new mailman and no one could get in the yard after that so they stopped his mail. So I cut a place in the garage for the mail. That older mailman was great too because my mom got to where she could not move around right and she could always see him coming down the street and would get up and go to the door and he would open the screeb door and front door and hand my mom the mail. If mom was not there they he would put in in the box sticking out so it was easy to get because it was up high and hard for mom so she could not reach down in the box, Plus that mailman was there the same time each day from 9 to 9:30 am and now you never know when your mail will come. 
Out where I live all the mail boxes are on one side of the street too but for where they added some newer track homes down the road they have the boxes now in front of there home. But the builder that took up the boxes just put them in 5 gallon buckets that sat across the street a long time and then later got mover in fron of there homes. But if anything is wrong there it is the mail box buckets setting in the curb or on the sidewalk because that is not up to code. That builder really should put then on a post in there yard. With the new homes the street got wider there too so no way do you want to go across the street to get the mail and out here there are a lot more cars around then there used to be so it is not so safe either.

Ok lex back to your plugs.  
Get a tester like this one here lex http://www.electrical-online.com/Voltagetesters_files/image006.jpg at home depot. 
They are cheap and it will let you know all is wired and working right. Better yet get one like this http://www.elexp.com/tst_9610.htm so you can also test the GFCI.
http://www.electrical-online.com/voltagetesters.htm


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## lexmarks567 (Aug 13, 2006)

(CWLMST) the wire in the garage is 12/2 with ground the wire I got is 14/2 with ground both rated at 600 volts.I can't return the wire as the box has been opened.So is it safe to replace the 12/2 with 14/2 or add 14/2 onto 12/2 I don't have the money now to get 100 ft of 12/2 thats like $60-$70 at the hardware store.    so could I replace the 12/2 with 14/2.      the wire in the garage the printed letters are cut of so it looks like 12/2 but when i got near the outlet it said 12/2


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## buck52 (Mar 9, 2001)

what's the breaker rated at?

If the breaker is 15 amp then you can safely add the 14/2 to the existing curcuit although garage code usually calls for 20 amp...

If the breaker is 20 amp then it would be illegal as well as unwize to add the 14/2 to the curcuit


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## lexmarks567 (Aug 13, 2006)

buck52 said:


> what's the breaker rated at?
> 
> If the breaker is 15 amp then you can safely add the 14/2 to the existing curcuit although garage code usually calls for 20 amp...
> 
> If the breaker is 20 amp then it would be illegal as well as unwize to add the 14/2 to the curcuit


its a 15 amp circuit and my house uses fuses so its a 15 amp fuse


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## iltos (Jun 13, 2004)

lexmarks567 said:


> (CWLMST) the wire in the garage is 12/2 with ground the wire I got is 14/2 with ground both rated at 600 volts.I can't return the wire as the box has been opened.So is it safe to replace the 12/2 with 14/2 or add 14/2 onto 12/2 I don't have the money now to get 100 ft of 12/2 thats like $60-$70 at the hardware store.    so could I replace the 12/2 with 14/2.      the wire in the garage the printed letters are cut of so it looks like 12/2 but when i got near the outlet it said 12/2


are you asking if it'll be safe?
more than likely
but buck is right...12/2 is the way to go in a garage, imo.

a lot of the "wisdom" of this choice is now determined by what you expect to use those new plugs for, and wacor's concerns (posted up thread) about liability in the event you sell your house, or something is amiss and the garage is damaged by an electrical fire.


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## johnpost (Dec 18, 2005)

lexmarks567 said:


> (CWLMST) the wire in the garage is 12/2 with ground the wire I got is 14/2 with ground both rated at 600 volts.I can't return the wire as the box has been opened.So is it safe to replace the 12/2 with 14/2 or add 14/2 onto 12/2 I don't have the money now to get 100 ft of 12/2 thats like $60-$70 at the hardware store.    so could I replace the 12/2 with 14/2.      the wire in the garage the printed letters are cut of so it looks like 12/2 but when i got near the outlet it said 12/2


As others have said:

Using 12/2 on a 15A circuit is just fine. Adding 14/2 onto a run of 12/2 is just fine as long as it is a 15A circuit.

The one issue is that later on a person seeing 12/2 in the fuse box thinks. 'why is there only a 15A circuit on 12awg wire, i'll just up that to a 20A fuse'. This could be done easily
by someone besides yourself later on who doesn't know the story, especially when
they think an appliance circuit to the garage could use it.

So especially if 12/2 goes to the fusebox, I would put a note for that circuit that
it can only be 15A.


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## lexmarks567 (Aug 13, 2006)

johnpost said:


> As others have said:
> 
> Using 12/2 on a 15A circuit is just fine. Adding 14/2 onto a run of 12/2 is just fine as long as it is a 15A circuit.
> 
> ...


a 20 amp fuse will not fit in a 15 amp spot the threads are slighty off as my box has the screw in type fuse


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## wacor (Feb 22, 2005)

lexmarks567 said:


> a 20 amp fuse will not fit in a 15 amp spot the threads are slighty off as my box has the screw in type fuse


Switch to circuit breakers


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## johnpost (Dec 18, 2005)

lexmarks567 said:


> a 20 amp fuse will not fit in a 15 amp spot the threads are slighty off as my box has the screw in type fuse


 that's if you're using them new fangled safety fuses.

older fuse styles had all screw-in fuses be the same size and/or thread..

my comment even applied to a possible upgrade to a breaker box.
a person seeing 12/2 wire might just put a 20A breaker in that spot.


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## JohnWill (Oct 19, 2002)

You are fine putting 14/2 on a 15A circuit, safety wise. I'm almost certain that doesn't meet the electrical code.  The previous post is the reason why I would imagine.


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## lexmarks567 (Aug 13, 2006)

well im in the middle the project right now and just got hurt. was sliceing the insulation off the wires when the utility knife sliped so now i got a hafe inch slice down the side of my thumb waiting for it to stop bleeding so i can bandge it.


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## johnpost (Dec 18, 2005)

lexmarks567 said:


> well im in the middle the project right now and just got hurt. was sliceing the insulation off the wires when the utility knife sliped so now i got a hafe inch slice down the side of my thumb waiting for it to stop bleeding so i can bandge it.


ouch. rubbing alcohol will stop the bleeding quickly, another ouch but
frequently worth it. try not to get blood on the keyboard  [there's my
smiley use for this year]

keep the blade as short as you can if it is a multiposition retractable knife
(that is the safest kind). don't cut in the air, place the cable/wire on wood.

also use a sharp blade. and go slow. you can use less force and
have more control with slow moving of a sharp blade.

if you are gentle to not nick the wire a wire cutter is safer to strip
individual wires.

the jacket of plastic sheathed can also be done with a diagonal
wire cutters just take lots of small bites of just the jacket.


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## lexmarks567 (Aug 13, 2006)

DONE all set everything running smoothy.all outlets have power to them and the ceiling fan also has power too it and I have wire left over (100 FT box) pictures later


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## johnpost (Dec 18, 2005)

lexmarks567 said:


> DONE all set everything running smoothy.all outlets have power to them and the ceiling fan also has power too it and I have wire left over (100 FT box) pictures later


congrats


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## iltos (Jun 13, 2004)

johnpost said:


> congrats


yay....and a battle scar, too 

way to go lexmarks!


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## hewee (Oct 26, 2001)

Good to hear lex. I hope your all patched up too.


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## blues_harp28 (Jan 9, 2005)

:up: 100ft left over..you will now have to retrain as a sparky [electrician]


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## JohnWill (Oct 19, 2002)

Next time you slice your finger, here's a little tip. If you wash it out and IMMEDIATELY hold it together, it'll usually heal much faster. I use superglue to "fix" smaller cuts, and frequently they are almost totally healed in a couple of days.


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## GoneForNow (Jul 22, 2001)

JohnWill said:


> Next time you slice your finger, here's a little tip. If you wash it out and IMMEDIATELY hold it together, it'll usually heal much faster. I use superglue to "fix" smaller cuts, and frequently they are almost totally healed in a couple of days.


Duck tape works well too if don't have a bandaid handy.


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## JohnWill (Oct 19, 2002)

Why is *Duct Tape* like _The Force_?

It has a light side, a dark side, and holds the universe together.


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## hewee (Oct 26, 2001)

JohnWill said:


> Why is *Duct Tape* like _The Force_?
> 
> It has a light side, a dark side, and holds the universe together.


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