# Norton admits installing rootkits????



## Polly1016 (Nov 17, 2005)

Aside from disliking Norton in general I think this is pretty wreckless of them.

I might be the only one just hearing out about it but I will never own any other Norton Security products!

Here is a list of google sites that are discussing it.

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=Norton+admits+to+rootkit&btnG=Google+Search


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## poochee (Aug 21, 2004)

That's very irritating!


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## ACTU (Jun 29, 2005)

That is scary that people spend that hard earned money for that garbage. 


I discourage folks from Norton. Because of several reasons such for 1 it is a system hog.


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## hewee (Oct 26, 2001)

Good it is not on my systemworks 2001.

http://securityresponse.symantec.com/avcenter/security/Content/2006.01.10.html


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## AdrianClarke (Oct 25, 2004)

That is just LOW!

This is suppose to be a program to HELP your computer and yet its creating rootkits?!

I think I smell a lawsuit!


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## Polly1016 (Nov 17, 2005)

AdrianClarke said:


> This is suppose to be a program to HELP your computer and yet its creating rootkits?!


Some will say that it's only a rootkit by "strictest definition", but as I see it, a Rootkit by any other name is still a Rootkit!!!!!


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## Super-D-38 (Apr 25, 2002)

hmm.... I had it before my last reformats.. but now don't have any AV... 
I was told to try F-Secure.. But that craped up my system worse than Norton.. Had to reformat to get that one out too.. 

Any good AV's that don't "hijack" your system?... I've heard AVG has issues with Roxio.
Norton..... Well, it's Norton.. 
F-Secure... System hog. 

Not sure if the AV software is worse than the potential viruses... OK, some can smoke hardware.. but as for system slow down... You think for the money they can make it less bloated and faster.. 

Ahh, rant over for now.


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## Space Cowboy (Apr 19, 2005)

F-Prot Antivirus for Windows
for the home user :up:

F-Prot Antivirus for Windows provides *high-quality data protection and security without draining your systems resources* and without the need for the latest operating system or the latest hardware.

Designed to run on Windows 98, 98SE, ME, 2000, 2003 and Windows XP, and with a personal license covering up to five computers in the license holder's home, F-Prot Antivirus for Windows allows you to maintain complete home data security for a very modest price.

http://www.f-prot.com/products/home_use/win/


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## blues_harp28 (Jan 9, 2005)

Hi..No fan of Symantec..any thoughts about this..
http://www.pc101.com/showthread.php?t=151&highlight=brother


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## Lurker1 (Jan 30, 2001)

Hi blues_harp28

It sounds like a hoax to me. Most computers are made overseas and would require that the unit be disasembled to install the chip when it arrived in the USA. Then you would need some kind of way to interface the chip to the hundreds of different keyboard connectors. Finally you would need a way to connect the chip to the system so that it could be accessed remotely and you would need software which would interface with Microsoft Windows to control the transfer of data over the internet. Its just too complex a scheme to be real.


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## Polly1016 (Nov 17, 2005)

Super-D-38 said:


> Not sure if the AV software is worse than the potential viruses... OK, some can smoke hardware.. but as for system slow down... You think for the money they can make it less bloated and faster..


I agree! It seems careless of a so-called "Security Program" to install things that become rooted on your computer. I don't think it was in their EULA so I think it was just a major goof and Symantec should hang there head low on this one! No wonder the darn thing is so hard to uninstall. 

And you're right, Super-D-38, ... to add injury to insult you pay a bundle for their stuff!!!!


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## blues_harp28 (Jan 9, 2005)

Hi..Lurker1 you are no doubt correct..too complex to arrange..
I started a separate thread on the question in the Do it yourself forum..just to see what others may think..who says Im paranoid!


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## Stoner (Oct 26, 2002)

blues_harp28 said:


> Hi..No fan of Symantec..any thoughts about this..
> http://www.pc101.com/showthread.php?t=151&highlight=brother


The claim Dell was incorporating keyloggers came up in Civ Debate.
It was a hoax.
http://www.snopes.com/computer/internet/dellbug.asp


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## Super-D-38 (Apr 25, 2002)

Space Cowboy said:


> F-Prot Antivirus for Windows
> for the home user :up:
> 
> F-Prot Antivirus for Windows provides *high-quality data protection and security without draining your systems resources* and without the need for the latest operating system or the latest hardware.
> ...


Anyone else say yes to that?.. I'm curious, but with all the crap out there... 
Supposedly, F-Secure was good for detecting rootkits, but being the system hog it is, it's not worth it..


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## hewee (Oct 26, 2001)

Top 10 Antivirus Software

BitDefender's Malware Detection: Top-Notch

http://www.pcworld.com/reviews/article/0,aid,124475,00.asp


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## Super-D-38 (Apr 25, 2002)

Scan speed is sluggish, but hows your system speed? 

Do you use it hewee? Any slowdown when it loads?


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## Shamou (Oct 17, 2005)

For newbies... like me, reading this thread... here is the definition of a rootkit:

rootkit:
A rootkit is a type of malicious software that is activated each time your system boots up. Rootkits are difficult to detect because they are activated before your system's Operating System has completely booted up. A rootkit often allows the installation of hidden files, processes, hidden user accounts, and more in the systems OS. Rootkits are able to intercept data from terminals, network connections, and the keyboard


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## Polly1016 (Nov 17, 2005)

Thanks, Shamou!

I should have included the definition of a rootkit when I started this thread!


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## Polly1016 (Nov 17, 2005)

blues_harp28 said:


> Hi..No fan of Symantec..any thoughts about this..
> http://www.pc101.com/showthread.php?t=151&highlight=brother


It appears to be a version of this Urban Legend.

http://www.snopes.com/computer/internet/dellbug.asp


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## Space Cowboy (Apr 19, 2005)

Speaking of : Rootkit Revealer 1.7


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## hewee (Oct 26, 2001)

Super-D-38,

I used the free version and liked it. I had it as a 2nd AV backup so disable it from startup. But it is very easy to use and update a lot.

I did run into trouble after I upgraded to a newer version from 8 to 9 and it said free but was only good for 30 days and I cleaned it all up and installed it again and it said te same thing. So I took it off. I should of keep it on to see what would happen after 30 days. Maybe it was just there showing that so you upgrade to the paid version.
I want to install it again but was just waiting to see it maybe it was a bug they need to fix.
I really like the program and from the rating it is a great one too. So what if the scan is slow if it is finding more things then other then it is better.


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## Maestro99 (Jan 5, 2006)

hewee said:


> Top 10 Antivirus Software
> 
> BitDefender's Malware Detection: Top-Notch
> 
> http://www.pcworld.com/reviews/artic...,124475,00.asp





hewee said:


> Super-D-38,
> 
> I used the free version and liked it. I had it as a 2nd AV backup so disable it from startup. But it is very easy to use and update a lot.
> 
> ...


Hey hewee,

Same here. I also use 2 AVs: BitDefender 9 Standard and AVG (free). BitDefender is a great product and a very powerful antivirus tool.

I made a comment about this in another forum....and there's also a link to a free version of BitDefender [BitDefender Free Edition 8.0] (#15)
http://forums.techguy.org/security/436299-norton-antivirus-continuos-pop-up-trojan-vundo.html?highlight=vundo

Let me just add:

When I said that all antivirus software are not equal, the test conducted by PC World clearly shows this. Whether the difference lies in scanning, definition files (database [signatures]), detections etc., some are better than others.

Also, I don't recommend using two antivirus applications - you have to know how to manipulate them at startup, disable it etc.. Basically, I only use AVG for its definition files (database) scan.



pcworld.com/review said:


> ......although its scan speed was sluggish.
> 
> However, BitDefender's scan-speed results ranked second to last, averaging just over 9 minutes and 16 seconds to scan the files on our test PC.


I quite don't understand the relevance of 'time' here because:

1. BitDefender scans all my files in 15 minutes, AVG in 17 minutes, and the others I've tried in the past were 1 or 2 minutes quicker or slower.

2. Nobody wastes their time sitting in front of their computer while it's running a full scan.

3. A full scan that significantly takes less time is skipping files.

As for rootkits try:

RootKit Hook Analyzer by Resplendence Software

http://www.resplendence.com/hookanalyzer

I never tried this software, so I can't comment on it. I use Spy Sweeper to check for malicious rootkits.

Btw, here's a deal.......

BitDefender 9 Standard with Spy Sweeper for $24.95 at Herman Street. Spy Sweeper is free.

Statement of Authenticity 
We Guarantee that all software, including our FREE offers are complete, authorized programs. Our goal is to provide more value with every purchase.

http://www.hermanstreet.com/store/smarthtml/bitdefender-radio.html

I never purchased software from Herman Street, so I can't comment on whether it's a reliable company to do business with.


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## Super-D-38 (Apr 25, 2002)

Thanks for the info on Bitdefender.. 

As for rootkits.. F-Secure did come with a scanner for those.. 
But it slowed my bootup time. It almost doubled.  

I had the full security, I was told just the AV is a little better.. 
I just didn't like it. 

I like my higher end games, so system slow down is a big no no..
I will look further into BD 9... Even when I had Norton I had everything I could find disabled..
I would scan things I downloaded, and a system scan about once a month, but that was it.. 

I'm not so adventurous on the net like I once was. I stick to sites I've been to, or major sites..

I've had to clean out some real doozies, even while running an AV program.. 
Sure learn allot about your PC when hunting down viruses.


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## hewee (Oct 26, 2001)

Maestro99,

Well just like I said in my above post about trouble.

New install of BitDefender 
Time stamp of version is Thursday, June 30, 2005 7:41:04 AM
This was the very same Thursday, June 30, 2005 7:41:04 AM that I just installed and also installed on 8-15-2005

Says the news New install of BitDefender 8 has Expired.

Had trouble back in 8-15-2005 that it would expire on 9-10-2005 so uninstalled it and cleaned all I coud find on BitDefender and Softwin and cleaned registry of what I could find.

Just looked at web site and the only free version is BitDefender 8 Free Edition.
http://www.bitdefender.com/PRODUCT-14-en--BitDefender-8-Free-Edition.html

But go to Updates http://www.bitdefender.com/en/Main/view/Updates.html and then to
Updates - Free Products http://www.bitdefender.com/site/Main/view/Free-Products-Updates.html
You only see updates for BitDefender Free Edition v7.x

It wants me to register each time now BitDefender starts.
But I do just what it says to register and it says it is wrong.

I was using version 7 and never had any trouble with it and was still getting all the updates and if I need to I could get the Manual Update too.


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## Maestro99 (Jan 5, 2006)

hewee,

I wasn't aware of that...I only used BitDefender Free Edition 8.0 for a week and switched to BitDefender 9 Standard (purchased).


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## Rockn (Jul 29, 2001)

It would be Symantec you hate, not Norton (Perter Norton). Norton products at one time were really very good and innovative. Now they are bloated, intrusive pieces of junk that no longer function the way the originator intended. I will also not be purchasing BackupExec (now owned by Symantec) as it too has become a monster run amok.



Polly1016 said:


> Aside from disliking Norton in general I think this is pretty wreckless of them.
> 
> I might be the only one just hearing out about it but I will never own any other Norton Security products!
> 
> ...


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## Super-D-38 (Apr 25, 2002)

Hey just tried BD 9.. :up: seems fine for system boot time.
A full scan took 30min.. To scan about 15 gigs of info.. 

Most things are turned off though.. 

This long without an AV program, and it was clean... 
Well, OK a keylogger, but I knew it was there.


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## hewee (Oct 26, 2001)

As Rockn said Norton products used to be soooo much better before Symantec got there hands on it. Support was great back then too.

Super-D-38,
Did you buy BitDefender?

Guess I can buy BitDefender 9 Maestro99 because I sure can get the free one to work anymore. 
But still something seems funny at there site now after they came out with the BitDefender 8 free version. I know they have always had a free version that is 1 or 2 version numbers less then there new paid version. I bet if I can get the free version 7 that all would be ok again. 
I do remember something on version 6 or 7 that it had a Expired date but they had us download a update or patch or it was part of the update that changed the Expired date.


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## Super-D-38 (Apr 25, 2002)

Uh.....................................
..........................
........... Yeh,............
OK............

........Cough.... 

It said I had 30 days... Just want to see if it's fast, before I commit to it.


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## hewee (Oct 26, 2001)

Yes your have 30 days. 
Let us know how it goes.

I forgot and will have to try that I got back in Aug bitdefender_free_win_v72 so I can try installing version 7 again.

It is smaller too
bitdefender_free_win_v72 - 8.9 MB
bitdefender_free_v8 - 13.1 MB


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## Super-D-38 (Apr 25, 2002)

BD 9 Installed is 15.8 MB.. I left out the firewall, and something else...
Oh the anti spam software.. 

All I was after was the AV... 

How it go's?.... As in, what?.. 
Had it one day, and it seems great. :up:


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## hewee (Oct 26, 2001)

Version 7 is just a AV.

Like how is BitDefender going after using it 30 days.  
I like how the interface is simple on BitDefender.

Now if you go to the uninstall and click on BitDefender your get 3 options. 
Install, repair and uninstall.
Not sure if the uninstall will let you uninstall will let you take off other things or not.

So did you do a custom install and just pick the AV?


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## Maestro99 (Jan 5, 2006)

Here's another independent test that gives a complete review and analysis.

2006 Anti-Virus Software Report

http://anti-virus-software-review.toptenreviews.com/

Gold BitDefender
Silver PC-cillin
Bronze AVG Anti-Virus

#4 McAfee VirusScan
#5 F-Secure Anti-Virus
#6 Norton AntiVirus
#7 F-Prot for Windows
#8 eTrust EZ Antivirus
#9 ESET Nod32
#10 Panda Anti-Virus
#11 AVAST! Pro

I did some research and I found that some are complaining that the Free Edition is slow while scanning. Maybe that's the case with the Free Edition, but for me, the Standard Edition is not slow to a snail. PC World said second to last with a time of about 10 minutes. TopTenReview I believe said 1.5 gigabytes in ten minutes. The only problem I find is that they both don't say the # of files it scanned. For example, a full scan can mean different things to different antivirus applications. Therefore, in the future, both should conduct a *customize scan* (checking the C drive, and everything in and between it) and report their findings with *the # of files scanned.* I'll bet you, one antivirus will say 10,000 files, and the other 8,900 files.

All in all, AVG (free) is a great product. BitDefender is a great product. Norton is also a good product - perhaps not like the previous versions.....it all comes down to preference, and what you feel comfortable with.


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## Super-D-38 (Apr 25, 2002)

hewee said:


> Now if you go to the uninstall and click on BitDefender your get 3 options.
> Install, repair and uninstall.
> Not sure if the uninstall will let you uninstall will let you take off other things or not.
> 
> So did you do a custom install and just pick the AV?


It's "BitDefender 9 professional plus".
Custom install, and left out the Firewall, and the anti-spam add on's...

Yes under add/remove I have the option to "Modify, Repair, and Remove"
Full install will give AV, Firewall, Anti Spam, and Update...

I installed only the AV and the update stuff.. Says it's 22MB right now..



Maestro99 said:


> I did some research and I found that some are complaining that the Free Edition is slow while scanning. Maybe that's the case with the Free Edition, but for me, the Standard Edition is not slow to a snail. PC World said second to last with a time of about 10 minutes. TopTenReview I believe said 1.5 gigabytes in ten minutes. The only problem I find is that they both don't say the # of files it scanned. For example, a full scan can mean different things to different antivirus applications. Therefore, in the future, both should conduct a customize scan (checking the C drive, and everything in and between it) and report their findings with the # of files scanned. I'll bet you, one antivirus will say 10,000 files, and the other 8,900 files.


I forgot how many files.. Well over 10,000.. I think it was like 40,000+.... 
Something like 15gigs of info.. and it scaned it in about 30min..

It scaned inside ziped and other compressed files, So I think it went quite well.. 
It even checked my huge GTA3.img file.. over a gig in size..

It reported the Keylogger in 3 places.. One was the link to the program, the program it self, and the ziped form of the program.. 
It even warns me when I open the sub-folder the link is in..

It's in a trainer for the game GTA SA.. So I know it's there, and I know why it's there..

*Oh and since this is about Norton, I started my own thread about BitDefender... Please continue there*.


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## hewee (Oct 26, 2001)

Thanks and I see the other thread on BitDefender 9 so we can keep talking about it here.

http://forums.techguy.org/reviews/440278-bitdefender-9-started-just-program.html


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## Maestro99 (Jan 5, 2006)

The Seahawks lost...I'm sad  ...the ref  calls the Seahawk touchdown - pass interference....

Winter Olympics Turin 2006......I hope Canada's hockey team wins the gold metal  ...and I hope the gold metal game USA vs Canada. A rivalry....



Super-D-38 said:


> I forgot how many files.. Well over 10,000.. I think it was like 40,000+....
> Something like 15gigs of info.. and it scaned it in about 30min..





Maestro99 said:


> For example, a full scan can mean different things to different antivirus applications. Therefore, in the future, both should conduct a customize scan (checking the C drive, and everything in and between it) and report their findings with the # of files scanned. I'll bet you, one antivirus will say 10,000 files, and the other 8,900 files.


I used 10,000 as an example....

I'll post the scan results in the BitDefender thread.


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## Jay_JWLH (Nov 29, 2005)

The only good thing about norton is that their 2006 suite seems to have got a good review in one of my computer magazines. Hopefully they completely revamped it and its actually good this time, or its updated and besides the review its pretty much the same. I guess the only thing norton got right for me was the ad blocking. The review is below, and sorry about the quality.


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## Lyte (Jan 11, 2006)

blues_harp28 said:


> Hi..No fan of Symantec..any thoughts about this..
> http://www.pc101.com/showthread.php?t=151&highlight=brother


Hey Blue, I don't know if the photos were down when you look at the thread regarding the keystroke logger it but they're back up now.

Just an FYI... 

Lyte


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## Maestro99 (Jan 5, 2006)

> 2006 Anti-Virus Software Report
> 
> http://anti-virus-software-review.toptenreviews.com/
> 
> ...


TopTenREVIEWS changed their ratings...........

Anti-Virus Software Reviews 2006

Listed in order of rating:

Gold:	BitDefender
Silver:	Kaspersky
Bronze:	F-Secure Anti-Virus
#4: PC-cillin
#5: ESET Nod32
#6: McAfee VirusScan
#7: Norton AntiVirus
#8: AVG AntiVirus
#9: eTrust EZ Antivirus
#10: Norman Virus Control
#11: AntiVirusKit
#12: AVAST!
#13: Panda Titanium
#14: F-Prot
#15: PCTools AntiVirus
#16: ViRobot Expert
#17: WinAntiVirus
NA CyberScrub AntiVirus
NA The Shield AntiVirus

After trying Kaspersky, even I came to the same conclusion that it's a good antivirus product.

*EDIT:*

_No point in starting a new reply, I'll just continue here....
_
Taking a closer look at TopTenREVIEWS ratings, I totally disagree with their commentary/analysis in regards to scanning time.

Scanning Time 80 GB HardDrive:

Gold:	BitDefender Time: 20 Min 
Silver:	Kaspersky Time: 8 Min 
Bronze:	F-Secure Anti-Virus Time: 35 Min 
#4: PC-cillin Time: 30 Min 
#5: ESET Nod32 Time: 24 Min

There's no way Nod32 took 24 minutes to scan and BitDefender 20 minutes  . Nod32 is way faster. Kaspersky 8 minutes  . Nod32 is one of the fastest scanners out there! (Didn't try all antivirus software, but it's well noted among the antivirus community.) I just did a test.

TopTenREVIEWS probably made a mistake.....perhaps they will change it.....

Kaspersky documented in their help files (Frequently asked questions) regarding scanning times being somewhat long/slow. The more scans are conducted Kaspersky times start to get faster as stated in the help files because they skip files that have already been scanned (something to that effect). [Previous posts BD9, and I'll check the help files to see exactly what they say on scans.]

*EDIT AGAIN:*

Check this out......test conducted by PC World......(previously posted here in this thread)...

_Apparently, the PC World comparison chart link I posted previously didn't work....the long way.._
http://www.pcworld.com/reviews/article/0,aid,124475,00.asp
Check each of the boxes (Compare) and click Compare (at the bottom).

Scan speed (in seconds):

BitDefender 9 Standard Time: 556 sec 
McAfee VirusScan 2006 Time: 242 sec 
Kaspersky Lab Kaspersky Anti-Virus Personal 5.0 Time: 420 sec 
F-Secure Anti-Virus 2006 Time: 388 sec 
Symantec Norton AntiVirus 2006 Time: 272 sec 
Panda Software Panda Titanium 2006 Antivirus + Antispyware Time: 106 sec 
AntiVir Personal Edition Classic 6.32 Time: 265	sec 
Alwil Software Avast Home Edition 4.6 Time: 791 sec 
Trend Micro PC-cillin Internet Security Security 2006 Time: 134 sec 
Grisoft AVG Free Edition 7.1 Time: 354 sec

If TopTenREVIEW has Kaspersky at 8 minutes and BitDefender at 20 minutes, *then can somebody explain to me how PC World achieved in their test a difference of 136 sec = 2 minutes and 16 seconds!! * 12 minutes difference on 80 GB Hard Drive vs 2 minutes and 16 seconds difference...... the spread does not look right - TopTenREVIEWS scan time for Kaspersky looks way too fast. 

   TopTenREVIEW - McAfee VirusScan time: 1 hour vs BitDefender time: 20 minutes (McAfee slower), yet PC World has McAfee faster at 242 seconds vs BitDefender's 556 seconds   

*Conclusion: There's no consistency in these tests.......*

TopTenREVIEWS:

Gold	BitDefender Time: 20 Min
Silver	Kaspersky Time: 8 Min
Bronze	F-Secure Anti-Virus Time: 35 Min
#4 PC-cillin Time: 30 Min
#5 ESET Nod32 Time: 24 Min
#6 McAfee VirusScan Time: 1 Hour
#7 Norton AntiVirus Time: 35 Min
#8 AVG AntiVirus Time: 24 Min
#9 eTrust EZ Antivirus Time: 30 Min
#10 Norman Virus Control Time 35 Min


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## Maestro99 (Jan 5, 2006)

*^*



> Kaspersky documented in their help files (Frequently asked questions) regarding scanning times being somewhat long/slow. The more scans are conducted Kaspersky times start to get faster as stated in the help files because they skip files that have already been scanned........


Posted in BD9....



> Frequently asked questions:
> 
> Why does Kaspersky Anti-Virus cause a certain decrease in server performance, noticeably loading the CPU?
> 
> ...


*Also in Kaspersky's help files/guide.........*

*Key tasks performed using Kaspersky Anti-Virus > Frequently asked questions*

Frequently Asked Questions:

Kaspersky Anti-Virus does not rescan files that have been scanned earlier. Why?

This is true. Kaspersky Anti-Virus does not rescan files that have not changed since the last.

That has become possible due to new iChecker and iStreams technologies. The technology is implemented in the program using a database of file checksums and file checksum storage in alternate NTFS streams.

-------------------------

*The purpose and major functions of Kaspersky Anti-Virus Personal > What's new in version 5.0?*

Maintaining scanned objects database. Version 5.0 does not scan previously analyzed objects that have not changed since the time they were last scanned. This applies both to real-time protection and to the on-demand scan. This feature greatly improves the applications speed and performance.

-------------------------

*Preventing virus infections > Scan settings to be used*

2. In *Configure On-Demand Scan* window that opens after you click the above link, select the desired scan level, which defines the thoroughness of your computer's anti-virus protection. The default level is Recommended. You can change it by moving the Scan level slider up or down. Below is a discussion of the available protection levels together with situations when the use of a certain protection level is indicated:

1. Maximum protection - thorough scan of the entire computer or a particular disk, folder or file.
We recommend that you use this protection level if you suspect that your computer has been infected with a virus. A detailed discussion of infection symptoms is provided in section Symptons of infection.

2. Recommended - a scan of the entire computer or a specified object using settings recommended by Kaspersky Lab. *[NOTE: This is the default setting, and this is the setting I used plus the customize setting for all C:]*

We recommend that you use this protection level by default as it ensures an optimal combination of scan speed and thoroughness.

3. High speed - high-speed anti-virus scan of your computer or of a selected object.
This protection level ensures scanning at maximum speed due to a reduction in the number of objects to be scanned.

8 minutes  How many times did they perform a scan? What setting did they use - High Speed? # of files scanned? ............


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