# Hot water in bathroom



## telecom69 (Oct 12, 2001)

About 12 months ago I had one of the latest gas combi boilers fitted wall mounted on the ground floor,all works well except that it doesnt seem that the water to the bath is as hot as it should be,in fact it is not hot its just above warm, I dont think that is right, there are no flow problems or anything,just its not as hot as it should be ....the bath is on the floor above the boiler about about a total of 10 ft of pipework away,the water to the sink on the ground floor is too hot too handle,why not the same to the bath ??


----------



## oil painter (Jun 6, 2007)

Seems to me that this is a question to ask those who put in the water heater. I assume you had a water heater before that supplied that bathroom and you had hot water then. If you have very hot water downstairs and not upstairs it sounds --I admit from a complete novice-- like a gravity problem.


----------



## telecom69 (Oct 12, 2001)

I will be asking them when they service the boiler in the very near future,yes we had a previous heater for 15 years that gave no such problems,but it was a different system in that it supplied hot water to a storage tank that held about 40/50 gallons and the hot water was drawn from that as opposed to this one that heat the water as you use it,there is no storage tank involved, I just posted the question to see if anyone else has the same problem .....


----------



## Drabdr (Nov 26, 2007)

What kind of faucet/controls do you have on the bath? If you have one of the single controls, it may not be adjusting correctly. If that is the case, the control valve may need to be replaced.


----------



## telecom69 (Oct 12, 2001)

Two separate taps one hot one cold,thanks for replying .....


----------



## blues_harp28 (Jan 9, 2005)

Hi first thought if it was Not a Combi boiler would be is an air block.
It could still be the case.
Any sound of gurgling in the upstairs pipework?
Next guess.. would be a sticky water pump.


----------



## telecom69 (Oct 12, 2001)

Bled all the radiators,no signs of air at all,dont think its the pump because it delivers water ok its just that its not as hot as I think it should be,it is not hot at all just mainly luke warm but thanks for replying,appreciated .....


----------



## blues_harp28 (Jan 9, 2005)

I'd try turning off the boiler.
Cut a small piece of garden hose..approx 4 ft and put each end on the hot and cold tap.
It may take some doing.
Open both taps and let the force of the water from the cold tap..run up the pipework of the hot tap.
Does that make sense?

Let it run for awhile and it will clear any air blocks..if present.
It has worked for me many times before.


----------



## K7M (Feb 27, 2000)

Are you talking about Hot water to the faucet or to the heating system not hot enough? If you are talking about the faucet, it could be a mixing valve setting.


----------



## Drabdr (Nov 26, 2007)

Is there a port, valve or something by the boiler on the pipe heading upstairs? Is the problem coming off the boiler or upstairs? 

This is quite the odd situation (hence the reason you posted). The source (the boiler) should provide the same temperature water, if all the pipes are coming out of one feed pipe from the boiler. This is not a new application, so it does no good to question the heat loss in the pipe going upstairs. 

Does the new boiler have the same BTU/ capacity as your old unit? It may be losing steam (pardon the bad pun) pushing the hot water up the pipe.

I know there's really nothing of help, there. Just kind of thinking out loud.


----------



## wacor (Feb 22, 2005)

Is the faucet in the tub a single one or a dual where there is a hot and a cold valve to open?

If it is the single valve I bet when they installed the boiler some debris got into the faucet valve where only so much water is able to pass


----------



## Drabdr (Nov 26, 2007)

K7M said:


> Are you talking about Hot water to the faucet or to the heating system not hot enough? If you are talking about the faucet, it could be a mixing valve setting.





wacor said:


> Is the faucet in the tub a single one or a dual where there is a hot and a cold valve to open?
> 
> If it is the single valve I bet when they installed the boiler some debris got into the faucet valve where only so much water is able to pass


I had the exact same thought process as you, but telecom69 answered here:



telecom69 said:


> Two separate taps one hot one cold,thanks for replying .....


So, it put me back at square one..


----------



## wacor (Feb 22, 2005)

What happens when the hot water only is turned on?

Is the flow normal??

If so then was this problem evident from the begging of the change over to the new boiler?

Is the piping in an open ceiling where you can follow all the pipes until they lead up to the sink and the tub?

If so maybe a couple of pics would help to see how the pipe is routed if the answers are all yes


----------



## telecom69 (Oct 12, 2001)

Thanks to all who have shown interest :up: there are no air locks,Im sure of that and I have also tried back flushing (no improvement) this is a two storey house,the gas boiler is wall mounted on the ground floor,the bathroom is directly above it,so heat loss in pipe work can be ruled out,its a normal flow to hot tap,so definitely no blockages,its a higher capacity boiler than my old one,the only difference is that the old one used a storage tank,there is no storage tank with this boiler,the water is heated as used and the supply to the downstairs hot tap is too hot to bear so the heater is working ok, its a mystery  its been like this since it was installed just over a year ago ...there is never any need to cool the water down when running a bath as the water never gets above what I would call luke warm,I just think it should be better than it is,its the latest type combi boiler and installed by a specialist firm,Im thinking now its time to consult them on this problem,hesitated before in case anyone had any suggestions I could try before doing so ............


----------



## oil painter (Jun 6, 2007)

Good luck!! I hope you get it fixed.


----------



## telecom69 (Oct 12, 2001)

Thanks oil painter :up: they will have to fix it one way or another its still under warranty for the next 9 months .....


----------



## littlejew (Dec 9, 2008)

Instant heat boilers are hard put to match the performance storage tank units. You complaint is very common. What are the specifications of the new boiler, Manufacturer, btu input etc?

Lee Clark "handyman"


----------



## wacor (Feb 22, 2005)

I was wondering how big the tub is and the faucet flow rates

I have seen some absurd bathrooms in the last few years where the whirlpool tubs had pretty large faucet flow requirements.


----------



## telecom69 (Oct 12, 2001)

littlejew said:


> Instant heat boilers are hard put to match the performance storage tank units. You complaint is very common. What are the specifications of the new boiler, Manufacturer, btu input etc?
> 
> Lee Clark "handyman"


Well the boiler is an Ideal Combi ISAR HE24 and the BTU input is (92 100) according to the manual ...I have always been dubious about these instant heat systems and maybe Im expecting too much,I dont know,common sense and logic tells me that heating up cold water mains supply to reasonable hot water instantly surely takes some doing,it has to be some heat source to do that,but it does do it for the sink taps just 10 ft away,in a straight line, its just the hot supply to the bath on the next floor up directly above the boiler that Im not happy about  the tub/bath by the way is just a normal bath no fancy gadgets ...I would much rather have the storage tank type myself,my old one worked perfectly,but at 16 years it was getting old,there are difficulties in getting storage types installed these days over here in the uk,for some reason its frowned upon,from those who are supposed to be in the know


----------



## blues_harp28 (Jan 9, 2005)

The advantage of the 'instant heat systems ' are, that you only heat what you need at any given moment.
No tank in the loft of hot water waiting to be used..and slowly becoming colder.
Thus saving money.
Also to install, it means less pipework, and no storage tank in the loft.
All in all they are a better system.

Letting the installer check the system would be the best next move.

Edit.
You say in post 14...that the water in the downstairs tap is too hot to bear.
Does the hot water temperature switch on the boiler, not reduce the heat of the water supply?
Is it possibly faulty?
Down here, in the south of the UK a yearly service would have been done.
Is it overdue a service?


----------



## wacor (Feb 22, 2005)

is there one pipe coming out of the boiler or separate pipes going to the faucet and the tub??


----------



## littlejew (Dec 9, 2008)

You should look @ the temp setting on the heater, set it higher if it has an adjustment. 
To help isolate the problem try filling the tub at various rates, ie from a very modest flow to a fast flow, about 5 gallons ea ans see what you get. If the water is hot at a slow low rate of flow and cooler at a faster rate of flow you are simply asking for more than the heater can produce in the time span you are used to.

_*littlejew*_


----------



## wacor (Feb 22, 2005)

Looks like several people are not pleased with that unit from what I could see when searching on it


----------



## blues_harp28 (Jan 9, 2005)

littlejew said:


> If the water is hot at a slow low rate of flow and cooler at a faster rate of flow you are simply asking for more than the heater can produce in the time span you are used to.
> _*littlejew*_


Excellent point.
The faster the water travels through the heat exchanger the colder it will be.


----------



## wacor (Feb 22, 2005)

blues_harp28 said:


> Excellent point.
> The faster the water travels through the heat exchanger the colder it will be.


Given that is a standard tub it should have been sized right to begin with.

Unfortunately a year has passed since the unit was installed. If it was not right from the beginning then it should have been complained about right away. I can not impress enough being a contractor that when people have a problem they need to let the contractor know about it immediately. If you are dealing with an honest one they want to make it right and not have something come back to them a year later when warranties expire. In this case you may have warranty on the unit but not on the labor.


----------



## Drabdr (Nov 26, 2007)

wacor said:


> Given that is a standard tub it should have been sized right to begin with.
> 
> Unfortunately a year has passed since the unit was installed. If it was not right from the beginning then it should have been complained about right away. I can not impress enough being a contractor that when people have a problem they need to let the contractor know about it immediately. If you are dealing with an honest one they want to make it right and not have something come back to them a year later when warranties expire. In this case you may have warranty on the unit but not on the labor.


Agreed. I didn't realize this was an insta-hot type system, with no reservoir. That makes a big difference. The heater unit has enough BTU to heat the water and to compensate for heat loss up to the faucet, but does not sound adequate to compensate for the heat loss of pushing the water upstairs and heating a much larger volume.

I would see if you can put some pressure on the people who installed it. If not, look into putting a small tank upstairs, or an InstaHot up there.


----------



## telecom69 (Oct 12, 2001)

Just to clear up a few of the points mentioned ....Ideal boilers give an excellent 2 years parts and labour guarantee,and the boiler service is due in May when I will mention the problem to the service engineer...

Its a thing to try that variable flow,not thought to try that,Ill give it a try at half open tap and see what happens.....

There are 3 3/4" pipes going up from the top of the boiler through the ceiling,as to where they go from there is anyones guess ......

Yes the hot water temp switch on the boiler does reduce water temp,its on max so I get max temp to upstairs..

*Thank you so much to everyone for their continued interest in this problem,much appreciated* :up:


----------



## wacor (Feb 22, 2005)

turn on the faucet to both the sink and the tub

feel all three pipes on the boiler

Unless the cold pipe enters from below then those three pipes represent the cold inlet and the out lets to the tub and the sink.

both pipes going to the sink and the tub should feel hot and feel the same. I am guessing the one to tub will not feel hot. 

I would look thru the manual if you have one and see if one can adjust the temperature setting for the separate lines.


----------



## buffoon (Jul 16, 2008)

You're sure that the pipe connection from the boiler to the bath faucet is direct? You're not drawing cold water from somewhere else along the way at the same time? Were the original connections to the old storage heat tank "deadened"?


----------



## telecom69 (Oct 12, 2001)

littlejew said:


> You should look @ the temp setting on the heater, set it higher if it has an adjustment.
> To help isolate the problem try filling the tub at various rates, ie from a very modest flow to a fast flow, about 5 gallons ea ans see what you get. If the water is hot at a slow low rate of flow and cooler at a faster rate of flow you are simply asking for more than the heater can produce in the time span you are used to.
> 
> _*littlejew*_


This worked ok :up: just have to get used to the fact that it will take quite a while to fill the bath  at half tap setting the water is as hot as it runs downstairs, so at the moment will work with that,and ask the service engineer in May if anything can be improved or not ...if not,then so be it, just another instance proving newer is not always better,everything I read told me these latest boilers were the way to go, but I liked the older method of the storage tank better....having said that though,there are probably larger and a lot more expensive boilers of this modern type that can deliver a better flow 

Thanks to everyone who has helped out on this thread,appreciate all your inputs :up:


----------



## oil painter (Jun 6, 2007)

One last word and it's not about your heater per se but about the company

Check your warrantee that came with the heater--is it good in May or should you be calling them now. Personally I wouldn't wait. If your heater is too small the company is at fault. They should have told you the capabilities of it before they installed it and advised you on which one to get for your particular house


----------



## telecom69 (Oct 12, 2001)

The warrantee is good till August 2009,the company are a large nationwide company with high reputation,no problems with them at all ...they install to a budget obviously,the heater does the job ok especially on the heating side,its just that its a different way of delivering hot water ....


----------



## wacor (Feb 22, 2005)

telecom69 said:


> This worked ok :up: just have to get used to the fact that it will take quite a while to fill the bath  at half tap setting the water is as hot as it runs downstairs, so at the moment will work with that,and ask the service engineer in May if anything can be improved or not ...if not,then so be it, just another instance proving newer is not always better,everything I read told me these latest boilers were the way to go, but I liked the older method of the storage tank better....having said that though,there are probably larger and a lot more expensive boilers of this modern type that can deliver a better flow
> 
> Thanks to everyone who has helped out on this thread,appreciate all your inputs :up:


I would call them *immediately *and demand satisfaction. It matters not if they undersized it or it is working inadequately. Either the unit is not working right or they are a con artist or incompetent.

This is not like sizing a unit for an entire home where there are a lot more calculations. You did not change the faucet in the tub. So it did not work as intended either way.

The unit is either not working right or they screwed up and undersized. Either way it is THEIR responsibility to make good.


----------



## Drabdr (Nov 26, 2007)

wacor said:


> I would call them *immediately *and demand satisfaction. It matters not if they undersized it or it is working inadequately. Either the unit is not working right or they are a con artist or incompetent.
> 
> This is not like sizing a unit for an entire home where there are a lot more calculations. You did not change the faucet in the tub. So it did not work as intended either way.
> 
> The unit is either not working right or they screwed up and undersized. Either way it is THEIR responsibility to make good.


Absolutely agree with Wacor.:up: Telecom, stand up to these folks and make them do what they were supposed to do. Exactly what Wacor said, I'm not even in the business and would have sized the system appropriately. Alternatively, I would have given you the option of oversizing it, but I would have made clear warning that the unit that was going in was undersized. Actually, I would never undersize anything, so the installation is unacceptable. Geez, I installed some Instahots at our gym. It's not that difficult to make sure you install what you need.

I certainly don't want to overstep anything, but I would PM Wacor who knows this business and get some pointers and such.

You paid good money for that system; it should have been installed properly.


----------



## wacor (Feb 22, 2005)

I am a contractor but not a plumber. Nothing much more I can add other than if I miss size something in my industry there is legal precedent that I am responsible. The customer is not qualified to determine sizing so it is up to me in my line of work.


----------



## gophersnake (Mar 5, 2006)

Buffoon asked about the possibility that cold water might somehow be mixing with the hot and bringing down the temperature. That would be worth ruling out: try shutting the valve that admits water to the heater, then opening the bathroom tap. If you get only a trickle from that tap now, that could just be from a leaky shutoff valve or water left in the pipes. If you continue to get a significant flow, though, it must be water that isn't going through the heater.


----------

