# Coronavirus spread to EU/USA



## zebanovich

Coronavirus seems to be spreading fast and wide and it's mutation status is still not well understood.
https://www.euronews.com/2020/01/22...tor-general-statement-on-coronavirus-outbreak

Are you afraid?
Do you think this is just the beginning of potentially more hazardous outbreak?

To me it sounds like a return to dark ages.


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## Wino

That already happened Nov. 7, 2016 re dark ages return. LOL

Just left Doc office after check up - office filled with sick people. I expect I'll have the flu by next week, but not corona (I hope).


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## Johnny b

I'm not so much afraid as I am concerned.

It would be interesting to see the take on vaccinations against coronavirus infection by the anti-vaxxers and Christian Science type cults.

I see the Health Ranger ( Mike Adams ) is still at it with his nonsense.
https://healthrangerreport.com/

And now I see Adams has aligned himself with Alex Jones (    )
https://theness.com/neurologicablog/index.php/new-coronavirus-facts-and-misinformation/



> "It's over for humanity," Mike Adams declared the other day. The self-proclaimed Health Ranger and one of the internet's more prolific conspiracy-mongers offered a dark prophecy. "There will only be lone survivors. The strategy must now shift. You can be a survivor. We can help you survive, the information here at* Infowars* and what I do."


Infowars:
https://www.infowars.com/coronavirus-chinese-espionage-behind-wuhan-bioweapon/
* Coronavirus: Chinese Espionage Behind Wuhan Bioweapon *

Well.........hmmmm.......


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## zebanovich

Those conspiracy theorists are complete idiots,
scaring people and telling nonsense just to increase traffic on their sites/media.

worth reading to have fun ofc.

I find WHO to be the first site to learn about these kinds of events:
https://www.who.int/


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## Johnny b

Agreed


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## Wino

Sad as it may be, corona may thin the herd of anti-vaccers.


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## zebanovich

To develop a cure it can take up to 10 years or even more.
HIV dates almost a century back and still no cure.

except this cause is a killer virus, and already surpassed SARS.


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## Wino

Several years ago went thru a bout of MRSA on my left knee I picked up on a job while in Miami. Left two large scars. Medical facilities treated me like I was radio active. Six or so months after infection cured, was in hospital for hernia operation - during pre-op the MRSA came up and I had a small pimple on top of my left ear. Operation was cancelled and I was asked to come back in a couple of weeks after testing. It was negative. With COPD, the last thing I need is the flu.


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## sonora_patrick

zebanovich said:


> Coronavirus seems to be spreading fast and wide and it's mutation status is still not well understood.
> https://www.euronews.com/2020/01/22...tor-general-statement-on-coronavirus-outbreak
> 
> Are you afraid?
> Do you think this is just the beginning of potentially more hazardous outbreak?
> 
> To me it sounds like a return to dark ages.


Our leaders should have done more.


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## Johnny b

sonora_patrick said:


> Our leaders should have done more.


Agreed.
Both, initial denial of severity and de-funding of health agencies, have led to unnecessary deaths and greater damage to our economy.

Trump didn't cause the pandemic, but his initial actions and reactions did cause greater damage from the pandemic.

IMO, another troubling concern is that a large segment of our society denies the above and supports what (edit)little Trump has done.
Edit: and not done!!!

* Trump's Popularity Ticks Up During Coronavirus Crisis *
https://www.wsj.com/articles/trumps-popularity-ticks-up-during-coronavirus-crisis-11585252376


> WASHINGTON-More Americans are taking a favorable view of President Trump's leadership as he navigates the novel coronavirus pandemic, with some measures of support hitting or tying all-time highs.


(paywall)

* President Trump's Job Approval Rating Up to 49% *
https://news.gallup.com/poll/298313/president-trump-job-approval-rating.aspx


> WASHINGTON, D.C. -- President Donald Trump may be enjoying a small rally in public support as the nation faces the COVID-19 pandemic. Forty-nine percent of U.S. adults, up from 44% earlier this month, approve of the job Trump is doing as president. Trump also had 49% job approval ratings -- the best of his presidency -- in late January and early February around the time of the Senate impeachment trial that resulted in his acquittal.












Radical Nationalism ( aka fascism ) has become acceptable to many US citizens.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ultranationalism


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## Wino

I'm waiting with anticipation for the idiot to fire Birx and Fauci for making orange sphincter look bad - not that he needs any help.

The stimuli / bailout and the fact the Fed has shot it's wad of tools already, we best hope this gets controlled soon or we're in for some real hurt thanks to the bumbling twit. Powell made a yuge mistake when he dropped interest rates a half point leaving not much room to maneuver if economy doesn't respond to stimuli.

I have to make a quick run today to pick up some items ordered on line from Sam's Club for pick up yesterday. This will be my first venture into the wild since Friday 13th - not looking forward to the venture - from what I've heard from friends and relatives that have ventured out - people still rude and crazy. My trip to the grocery on 13th was filled with shame by the actions of others - again, makes me understand better how this idiot prez got elected.


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## Johnny b

Trump and his minions through out our government have driven us into what is likely less than third world status in a matter of months , and all Trump responds is that he doesn't take responsibility, it's Obama's fault.
It wasn't.
Trump and his minions lied about a lot.
And now the US suffers for it.

* The coronavirus test that wasn't: How federal health officials misled state scientists and derailed the best chance at containment *

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news...ched-rollout-derailed-containment/5080781002/


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## Wino

Whew!! I feel so much better about orange scourage handling of the crisis since reading a report he is consulting with Arod (yes, the ex-Yankee) about what to do regarding COVID-19. The assurance is simply overwhelming!!! 

BTW - me venture into the wild yesterday for grocery's, on line Sam's order and Walmart meds wasn't as bad as I thought it was going to be. Walmart pharmacy was quick in/out; Sam's a bit of a cluster - long line to get in, long wait to get order placed on line as only one person working pick up area; grocery store - absolutely no paper products available - people still stupid. Was impressed that grocer was enforcing social distancing as witnessed several people being told to back off by personnel whilst in queue - floors marked where to stand when checking out. Foods fairly good although veggies sparse - frozen or fresh - eggs short on selection. I'm good for another two weeks on staying home and away from the madding crowd of idiots.


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## Chawbacon

Johnny b said:


> Trump and his minions through out our government have driven us into what is likely less than third world status in a matter of months , and all Trump responds is that he doesn't take responsibility, it's Obama's fault.
> It wasn't.
> Trump and his minions lied about a lot.
> And now the US suffers for it.
> 
> * The coronavirus test that wasn't: How federal health officials misled state scientists and derailed the best chance at containment *
> 
> https://www.usatoday.com/story/news...ched-rollout-derailed-containment/5080781002/


OK. I will agree that the Federal government did not provide accurate information on the turn around time for evaluating Covid-19 test kits and that Trump should have been more forthcoming about the severity of Covid-19; because, it was obvious to anyone with half a brain that Covid-19 had the ability to spread rapidly!  However, understanding the virulence of Covid-19 and to then state that the US suffers for it is a bit on the ludicrous side. Considering the length of time that this virus remains viable in the air and on hard surfaces, reality tells us that every country around the planet will have to deal with Covid-19, unless the Country was willing to shut down all travel from outside countries.

Oh but wait, the media said that the Covid-19 travel restrictions were a sign of President Trump's xenophobia!  Even USA today (your original source article) did a Pro-China government piece on this very topic before Covid-19 took an apparent hold within the US. https://www.usatoday.com/story/news...reak-china-says-us-spreading-fear/4643737002/

As an FYI: Politifact addressed the ludicrous claims of lost time in February where test kits are concerned. 
https://www.politifact.com/factchec...falsely-says-trump-administration-rejected-w/


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## Johnny b

Chawbacon said:


> OK. I will agree that the Federal government did not provide accurate information on the turn around time for evaluating Covid-19 test kits and that Trump should have been more forthcoming about the severity of Covid-19; because, it was obvious to anyone with half a brain that Covid-19 had the ability to spread rapidly!  However, understanding the virulence of Covid-19 and to then state that the US suffers for it is a bit on the ludicrous side. Considering the length of time that this virus remains viable in the air and on hard surfaces, reality tells us that every country around the planet will have to deal with Covid-19, unless the Country was willing to shut down all travel from outside countries.
> 
> Oh but wait, the media said that the Covid-19 travel restrictions were a sign of President Trump's xenophobia!  Even USA today (your original source article) did a Pro-China government piece on this very topic before Covid-19 took an apparent hold within the US. https://www.usatoday.com/story/news...reak-china-says-us-spreading-fear/4643737002/
> 
> As an FYI: Politifact addressed the ludicrous claims of lost time in February where test kits are concerned.
> https://www.politifact.com/factchec...falsely-says-trump-administration-rejected-w/


Claiming lies as fact only defines your own character.



> OK. I will agree that the Federal government did not provide accurate information on the turn around time for evaluating Covid-19 test kits and that Trump should have been more forthcoming about the severity of Covid-19; ....


You aren't agreeing to any element of Trump's handling of the situation.
Trump presented a series of lies, initially that obviously turned out to be incredibly false.



> it was obvious to anyone with half a brain that Covid-19 had the ability to spread rapidly!


And with that statement, you just labeled the entire support structure of Trump's support from the fools that worship him to the liars in the News media that backed his claims.
That would be Trumpites (  ) and the likes of Fox News et al .



> However, understanding the virulence of Covid-19 and to then state that the US suffers for it is a bit on the ludicrous side.


And..... there you go with your apologist position as a Trump supporter.
With out the ability to do testing, nothing could be determined from early reports of infection....all the while Trump, his minions, his Trumpite supporters and the extremist elements of right wing news outlets proclaimed everything was under control, nothing to worry about.

As I posted, none of 'you' deserve forgiveness. What was done, the lying and misrepresentation was intentional. Most likely a re-elelection issue.



> Oh but wait, the media said that the Covid-19 travel restrictions were a sign of President Trump's xenophobia!


Strange...I didn't post that, but I do remember when travel from China was stopped, travelfrom Europe wasn't. And If you bothered to actually investigate the results, you'd find that the genome of the east coast strain, which has the highest of all infection rates of the US, is the mutated version of COVID-19 that came by way of Europe ( originally from China of course ) not the version of the west coast virus.

Xenophobic? More like a dumb arse political decision to me.
But that's Trumptopia.
Trump is responsible for the out of control infection rate in New York.

https://www.politifact.com/factchec...falsely-says-trump-administration-rejected-w/

Irrelevant to any discussion of a lack of test kits and Trump's lies and misinformation.
What Biden says and does is on Biden
What Trump does is not excused by what Biden claims.

Enough BS, Jack
I've told you in the past, you just aren't good at spin.


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## Chawbacon

Johnny b said:


> And..... there you go with your apologist position as a Trump supporter.
> With out the ability to do testing, nothing could be determined from early reports of infection....all the while Trump, his minions, his Trumpite supporters and the extremist elements of right wing news outlets proclaimed everything was under control, nothing to worry about.


My response was not an apologist position; rather, it was an analysis of the facts as we know them concerning Covid-19. I agree with you that the President and the Media Outlets attempts to calm the populace were grossly negligent in proclaiming that the situation was under control. Similarly, I thought the same thing during the last Ebola outbreak that reached the United States (which we thankfully were spared form a widespread outbreak), and I thought the same thing when H1N1 reared it's ugly head during Obama's administration which killed over 12,000 people in the United States alone. I only bring up Obama to put this in perspective. We need to understand that pandemics are not easily dealt with and that all governments should pull their heads out of the sand and state the full potential impact and reassure the public of what efforts will be taken to lessen the impact.


Johnny b said:


> As I posted, none of 'you' deserve forgiveness. What was done, the lying and misrepresentation was intentional. Most likely a re-elelection issue.


I do agree that this will be a re-election issue; however, what are the specific lies and misrepresentations that you are referring to please?


Johnny b said:


> Xenophobic? More like a dumb arse political decision to me.


YEP! Along with almost all of the other world leaders. Regardless, that does not make their responses and communication plans acceptable.


Johnny b said:


> Trump is responsible for the out of control infection rate in New York.


I suppose that Governor Cuomo takes no responsibility by not closing public schools, and not enforcing an economic slowdown, and not encouraging social distancing, etc?


Johnny b said:


> Irrelevant to any discussion of a lack of test kits and Trump's lies and misinformation.
> What Biden says and does is on Biden
> What Trump does is not excused by what Biden claims.


I realize that the link was referencing Biden and his statements; however, the information evaluated was relevant to the claims and concerns of Trump lies and misinformation concerning test kits.


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## Johnny b

Chawbacon said:


> My response was not an apologist position; rather, it was an analysis of the facts as we know them concerning Covid-19. I agree with you that the President and the Media Outlets attempts to calm the populace were grossly negligent in proclaiming that the situation was under control. Similarly, I thought the same thing during the last Ebola outbreak that reached the United States (which we thankfully were spared form a widespread outbreak), and I thought the same thing when H1N1 reared it's ugly head during Obama's administration which killed over 12,000 people in the United States alone. I only bring up Obama to put this in perspective. We need to understand that pandemics are not easily dealt with and that all governments should pull their heads out of the sand and state the full potential impact and reassure the public of what efforts will be taken to lessen the impact.
> 
> I do agree that this will be a re-election issue; however, what are the specific lies and misrepresentations that you are referring to please?
> 
> YEP! Along with almost all of the other world leaders. Regardless, that does not make their responses and communication plans acceptable.
> 
> I suppose that Governor Cuomo takes no responsibility by not closing public schools, and not enforcing an economic slowdown, and not encouraging social distancing, etc?
> 
> I realize that the link was referencing Biden and his statements; however, the information evaluated was relevant to the claims and concerns of Trump lies and misinformation concerning test kits.





> My response was not an apologist position; rather, it was an analysis of the facts as we know them concerning Covid-19


Your analysis.
With spin as pointed out.



> I agree with you that the President and the Media Outlets attempts to calm the populace were grossly negligent in proclaiming that the situation was under control.


Spin.
Denial in the face of evidence isn't a calming factor. 
Lying to calm in the face of a pandemic is illogical.



> I only bring up Obama to put this in perspective. We need to understand that pandemics are not easily dealt with and that all governments should pull their heads out of the sand and state the full potential impact and reassure the public of what efforts will be taken to lessen the impact.


What ever Obama did is on Obama.
What Trump does is on Trump.
Trump cut health budgets and brought about inefficiencies.
Trump lied to the public.
That's on him.



> I do agree that this will be a re-election issue; however, what are the specific lies and misrepresentations that you are referring to please?


Don't waste my time with what is commonly known.
YouTube is currently full of News Media videos compilations of both Trump's lies and his 180 degree turn around ....after COVID-19 had already hit the US significantly.
Easy search......google is your friend, your BS isn't mine. 



> I thought the same thing when H1N1 reared it's ugly head during Obama's administration which killed over 12,000 people in the United States alone.


How do you live with yourself?
H1N1 scenario was entirely different in the US compared to COVID-19.
COVID-19 has swamped our health system beyond it's resources.
It's not the death rate that's the biggest problem with COVID-19, it's the overwhelming rate of infection swamping our health system.
Comparing death totals is intellectually dishonest!
And that 1200 number is likely to be surpassed because of the collapse of our health system.



> I suppose that Governor Cuomo takes no responsibility by not closing public schools, and not enforcing an economic slowdown, and not encouraging social distancing, etc?


Again the spin.
What Cuomo does is on Cuomo.
It's not a logical rationalization for acceptance of what Trump does.
:down:



> I realize that the link was referencing Biden and his statements; however, the information evaluated was relevant to the claims and concerns of Trump lies and misinformation concerning test kits.


No, it was your BS attempt to spin acceptance of Trump.
A political argument. The type you claim to disdain. 
Trump lied and misrepresented initial testing from the onset.
His initially claimed statistics were worthless.
Common knowledge.


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## Chawbacon

Johnny b said:


> Trump cut health budgets and brought about inefficiencies.
> Trump lied to the public.


I think that you should review the following fact check conducted by the Associated Press.
*



AP FACT CHECK: Democrats distort coronavirus readiness

Click to expand...

*


> https://apnews.com/d36d6c4de29f4d04beda3db00cb46104
> ...He's proposed cuts but Congress ignored him and increased financing instead. The National Institutes of Health and the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention aren't suffering from budget cuts that never took effect...
> 
> ...Some public health experts say a bigger concern than White House budgets is the steady erosion of a CDC grant program for state and local public health emergency preparedness - the front lines in detecting and battling new disease. But that decline was set in motion by a congressional budget measure that predates Trump...
> 
> ...Some Democrats have charged that Trump decimated the nation's public health leadership, but Auerbach said CDC's top scientific ranks have remained stable during the past three years...


HOWEVER, this definitely applies to Trump in this instance! Same source:


> One of the lessons learned in prior crises, such as the anthrax attacks, is not to offer false assurances when scientists have questions about the illness.





Johnny b said:


> How do you live with yourself?
> H1N1 scenario was entirely different in the US compared to COVID-19.
> COVID-19 has swamped our health system beyond it's resources.
> It's not the death rate that's the biggest problem with COVID-19, it's the overwhelming rate of infection swamping our health system.
> Comparing death totals is intellectually dishonest!
> And that 1200 number is likely to be surpassed because of the collapse of our health system.


How is H1N1 response not relevant? As a country, we were not prepared for a pandemic and our government spouted false claims of nothing to see here... Just like now.

I think that the rate of infection is only part of the problem, since most individuals will weather the virus a just a flu. The health care system is being overwhelmed by the individuals that need hospitalization. We have fast track drug trials that look promising in helping infected individuals through bad cases of the virus; however, there are many individuals that would die regardless of medications and hospitalization. My bigger concern though is with capacity. Without enough beds, supplies, staff, etc... the problem is going to be the deaths of individuals that cannot receive care due to a lack of resources. This is an extremely sad time for the country either way we look at it.



Johnny b said:


> Again the spin.
> What Cuomo does is on Cuomo.
> It's not a logical rationalization for acceptance of what Trump does.


My point is that blame is not mutually exclusive in this case. There is plenty of blame to go around. That blame starts in China and ends all the way down at the local political level. Every aspect of our pandemic responses must be evaluated before we find our country in a similar situation again.


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## Johnny b

Chawbacon said:


> I think that you should review the following fact check conducted by the Associated Press.
> 
> HOWEVER, this definitely applies to Trump in this instance! Same source:
> 
> How is H1N1 response not relevant? As a country, we were not prepared for a pandemic and our government spouted false claims of nothing to see here... Just like now.
> 
> I think that the rate of infection is only part of the problem, since most individuals will weather the virus a just a flu. The health care system is being overwhelmed by the individuals that need hospitalization. We have fast track drug trials that look promising in helping infected individuals through bad cases of the virus; however, there are many individuals that would die regardless of medications and hospitalization. My bigger concern though is with capacity. Without enough beds, supplies, staff, etc... the problem is going to be the deaths of individuals that cannot receive care due to a lack of resources. This is an extremely sad time for the country either way we look at it.
> 
> My point is that blame is not mutually exclusive in this case. There is plenty of blame to go around. That blame starts in China and ends all the way down at the local political level. Every aspect of our pandemic responses must be evaluated before we find our country in a similar situation again.





> I think that you should review the following fact check conducted by the Associated Press.


My mistake.
Trump tried unsuccessfully.
And about your bogus claims of coal?
Can you admit that mistake? 



> How is H1N1 response not relevant?


Not in the manner you attempt.
The issue is rates of infection and the ability of a health system to respond.
COVIND-19 is more contagious with symptoms not expressed as early.
H1N1 did not over run the US health system.
As I posted, the death rate is not the major issue, it's the sudden swamping of the health system the reason they don't compare as equals. And because of that, the death rate will logically be greater than if provided health care was readily available.
You used a spin, the same as the Trump administration did early on, comparing death statistics leaving the impression COVID-19 was less of a worry.



> I think that the rate of infection is only part of the problem, since most individuals will weather the virus a just a flu.


The rate of infection is the major issue.
That is what is swamping our health system!!!
Too many people getting sick at at the same time.
Your death claim comparison is fallacious as I have pointed out.
With that overload, care is lessened and death rates increase because of it.



> My point is that blame is not mutually exclusive in this case. There is plenty of blame to go around. That blame starts in China and ends all the way down at the local political level. Every aspect of our pandemic responses must be evaluated before we find our country in a similar situation again.


And one of my points has been, the support and promotion of Trump's policies have been disingenuous to the point of being destructive.
And I do not see how that's forgivable.


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## Johnny b

Time to Fact Check the Fact Checker lol



Chawbacon said:


> I think that you should review the following fact check conducted by the Associated Press.
> ......................


From your source:
https://apnews.com/d36d6c4de29f4d04beda3db00cb46104


> WASHINGTON (AP) - Democratic presidential contenders are describing the federal infectious-disease bureaucracy as rudderless and ill-prepared for the coronavirus threat because of budget cuts and ham-handed leadership by President Donald Trump. That's a distorted picture. For starters, Trump hasn't succeeded in cutting the budget.
> 
> He's proposed cuts but Congress ignored him and increased financing instead.


According to the pdf at the CDC site:
https://www.cdc.gov/budget/fy2019/congressional-justification.html
The pdf FY 2019 Budget Detail Table
download here:
https://www.cdc.gov/budget/documents/fy2019/fy-2019-detail-table.pdf

Shows budget cuts in Zoonotic Infectious diseases from 2017 to 2019
And COVID-19 is a Zoonotic Infectious disease.










If the question is asked, was the CDC's budget for diseases like COVID-19 cut by the Trump administration, the answer is YES.

Sorry Jack, I'm going to have to retract my previous acceptance of your source.


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## Johnny b

Additionally, another pdf at the above CDC site was interesting.

* FY 2019 CDC Congressional Justification *
https://www.cdc.gov/budget/documents/fy2019/fy-2019-cdc-congressional-justification.pdf

excerpt:


> The fiscal year (FY) 2019 budget request for CDC and ATSDR includes a total funding level of $5,722,755,000 in
> discretionary budget authority and PHS Evaluation Funds. *This is $1,372,185,000 below the FY 2018 Annualized
> Continuing Resolution (CR) level*. The FY 2019 budget request maintains a number of programmatic reductions
> and eliminations proposed in the FY 2018 President's Budget.
> The budget request supports the Administration's commitment to improved health outcomes and lower
> healthcare costs, and invests in activities to both extend and improve the quality of American lives. CDC
> provides for the Common Defense of the Country against public health threats, and serves the country through
> its science. With these funds, CDC will continue to provide the best possible public health information and
> programs so the American public can decide how to best protect themselves and their families. CDC scientists,
> laboratorians, and disease detectives will continue to work around the clock and around the world to identify,
> prepare for, and respond to disease threats. These investments keep Americans safe and healthy.


(bolding is mine)


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## SeanLaurence

zebanovich said:


> Coronavirus seems to be spreading fast and wide and it's mutation status is still not well understood.
> https://www.euronews.com/2020/01/22...tor-general-statement-on-coronavirus-outbreak
> 
> Are you afraid?
> Do you think this is just the beginning of potentially more hazardous outbreak?
> 
> To me it sounds like a return to dark ages.


Returning to the dark ages is highly unlikely. Students of history will look to the influenza pandemic of 1918 for precedent.
Fortunately, we have the benefit of that epidemic to look to for guidance on what to do and what not to do. The low tech way of fighting the virus with quarantine, social distancing and hand-washing are effective.

Neil Ferguson, an epidemiologist with Imperial College London, predicted a WORST case of 2.2 million deaths in the USA if NOTHING is done to control the outbreak. So, out of a 327 million (2018) pop, that is 0.6% of the US pop. Certainly that would be tragic, but we are not talking about the loss of social structures. Certainly healthcare will take a hit if a large proportion of techs, nurses and doctors die.

Am I afraid? A bit. I would say more "concerned"


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## SeanLaurence

I am pretty sure that Trump disbanded the NSC pandemic unit, I will even use FOX as a source:
https://www.fox10tv.com/news/corona...cle_0f6a8327-0867-573b-bce6-b9b8bc4d549d.html

And the CDC is run by Trump appointees:
https://www.motherjones.com/politic...ontroversial-opinions-on-controlling-viruses/


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## Johnny b

SeanLaurence said:


> .................
> And the CDC is run by Trump appointees:
> https://www.motherjones.com/politic...ontroversial-opinions-on-controlling-viruses/


This has been an obvious problem through out many of Trump's appointments and a cause for the inefficiencies in his administration: too many second rate'rs.
Trump has been shown to value loyalty over ability.
Thus too many yes men that regurgitate Trump's opinions as their own, are chosen and those that don't comply simply get replaced or publicly demeaned.


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## Johnny b

I posted this in Random:



> According to the Johns Hopkins link at this time,
> 
> https://coronavirus.jhu.edu/map.html
> 
> there are twice as many confirmed COVID-19 infected cases in the US as in China.


With many of the east coast hospitals being swamped with COVID-19 patients,............how many critically ill patients that are not infected, dying, are going to die, because of the lack of medical resources?


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## Johnny b

I decided this thread was a better parking spot for this article than the Coronaviris thread in Random, where this character first appeared:

* Dr. Drew Pinsky apologizes for coronavirus comments: 'I got it wrong' *

https://www.usatoday.com/story/ente...nsky-addresses-covid-19-criticism/2960027001/

He didn't just 'get it wrong', it was an attempt to silence news reporting on the subject.



> Celebrity doctor Drew Pinsky has apologized for a series of statements unspooled in a recent video where he downplayed the coronavirus and suggested it was a "press-induced panic."
> 
> "I wish I had gotten it right, but I got it wrong," said Pinsky in a video posted over the weekend. Pinsky is known as "Dr. Drew."
> 
> Pinsky's apology was prompted by an online video that put together clips from a series of appearances he made over a two-month period. It's a storytelling form that has gained steam with the pandemic: The Washington Post has done mashups focused on President Donald Trump and Fox News, while Comedy Central on Friday issued a video targeting conservative personalities.


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## Johnny b

Watch it while it's still available.
It appears Pinsky is getting takedowns to make his comments disappear.


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## Wino

All the deniers and naysayers, including our idiot president, deny what they said on recordings - it's ludicrous to all except the MAGA's.


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## Johnny b

More on Pinsky at Arstechnica:

* Dr. Drew apologizes for being a COVID-19 denier after copyright silliness *

https://arstechnica.com/tech-policy...restored-to-youtube-after-copyright-takedown/



> Dr. Drew coronavirus supercut restored to YouTube after copyright takedown.
> 
> Reporter Yashar Ali Tweeted out a link to the video on April 4, calling Dr. Drew "a disgrace." Apparently Pinsky and/or his staff did not care for the extra attention to the supercut, however, and a few hours later, an attempt to view the video came up with the message: "This video is no longer available due to a copyright claim by Drew Pinsky Inc."
> 
> Ali also noted in a later Tweet that Pinsky was apparently threatening people who shared the tweet, saying in response to many, "Infringing copywrite [sic] laws is a crime. Hang on to your retweets. Or erase to be safe."


Nothing like a threat of litigation to prove the sincerity of an apology


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## Johnny b

Trump: one lie after another.

After many weeks of repeatedly telling US citizens we had nothing to worry about, Trump now claims he knew all along there was a pandemic brewing in China.

* Trump Now Claims He Always Knew the Coronavirus Would Be a Pandemic *
https://www.nytimes.com/2020/03/17/us/politics/trump-coronavirus.html

That he knew is correct and probably the only truthful statement he's made about the COVID-19 pandemic.

* When the White House was first warned of coronavirus *
https://abcnews.go.com/Politics/int...isis-early-november-sources/story?id=70031273



> As far back as late November, U.S. intelligence officials were warning that a contagion was sweeping through China's Wuhan region, changing the patterns of life and business and posing a threat to the population, according to four sources briefed on the secret reporting.
> 
> Concerns about what is now known to be the novel coronavirus pandemic were detailed in a November intelligence report by the military's National Center for Medical Intelligence (NCMI), according to two officials familiar with the document's contents.
> 
> .......
> 
> "Analysts concluded it could be a cataclysmic event," one of the sources said of the NCMI's report. "It was then briefed multiple times to" the Defense Intelligence Agency, the Pentagon's Joint Staff and the White House. Wednesday night, the Pentagon issued a statement denying the "product/assessment" existed.


(Note: The Pentagon needs to explain this discrepancy IMO. Perhaps an investigation is necessary. )



> From that warning in November, the sources described repeated briefings through December for policy-makers and decision-makers across the federal government as well as the National Security Council at the White House.
> 
> All of that culminated with a detailed explanation of the problem that appeared in the President's Daily Brief of intelligence matters in early January, the sources said. For something to have appeared in the PDB, it would have had to go through weeks of vetting and analysis, according to people who have worked on presidential briefings in both Republican and Democratic administrations.
> 
> "The timeline of the intel side of this may be further back than we're discussing," the source said of preliminary reports from Wuhan. "But this was definitely being briefed beginning at the end of November as something the military needed to take a posture on."


And now he lies again:

* Trump blames WHO for getting coronavirus pandemic wrong, threatens to withhold funding *
https://www.cnbc.com/2020/04/07/tru...emic-wrong-threatens-to-withhold-funding.html

Who allowed COVID-19 to devastate the US with out any attempt to mitigate the impact of this pandemic after becoming knowledgeable of the situation one might ask.
The man responsible is the President of the United States of America who has stated :


> I don't take responsibility at all


'Why' is a serious question. Why did he ignore the warnings?

Several possibilities.
He's been spinning the truth for obvious political reasons.
And this point I've mentioned in the past.....a fire sale.
Perhaps both.

He is after all a malevolent opportunist.


----------



## SeanLaurence

Johnny b said:


> He's been spinning the truth for obvious political reasons.
> And this point I've mentioned in the past.....a fire sale.
> Perhaps both.
> He is after all a malevolent opportunist.


By spinning the truth, do you mean lying?
It is not obvious to me why he would do nothing in the face of the pandemic. One would think that he could take the advice of his advisors and lean hard into the pandemic like say New Zealand has, and saved the economy from the worst effects. That would have put him in good stead for winning re-election in the fall.
Or is that what he wants?

Maybe he sees the country as overpopulated and in need of a culling?
Who knows?


----------



## Johnny b

SeanLaurence said:


> By spinning the truth, do you mean lying?
> It is not obvious to me why he would do nothing in the face of the pandemic. One would think that he could take the advice of his advisors and lean hard into the pandemic like say New Zealand has, and saved the economy from the worst effects. That would have put him in good stead for winning re-election in the fall.
> Or is that what he wants?
> 
> Maybe he sees the country as overpopulated and in need of a culling?
> Who knows?





> By spinning the truth, do you mean lying?


....yeah!



> One would think that he could take the advice of his advisors and lean hard into the pandemic like say New Zealand has, and saved the economy from the worst effects. That would have put him in good stead for winning re-election in the fall.
> Or is that what he wants?


Think 'fire sale'.
Trillions of dollars of investments were lost.
Trillions of $'s of stock sold.
Trillions of $'s of stock bought on the cheap.

As far as an election, well, that's 'up in the air' because of the disruption from the pandemic and we have a President who once claimed the elections were perverted by the Democrats in 2016 and now his arguments extend to today.

https://nymag.com/intelligencer/2020/04/trump-mail-voting-fraud-coronavirus-vote-suppression.html

https://www.cnn.com/2020/04/07/politics/fact-check-trump-coronavirus-briefing-april-7/index.html

https://www.npr.org/sections/corona...raud-as-rampant-as-president-trump-says-it-is

Will it be an honest election? 
Wait and see is all I can comment to.



> Maybe he sees the country as overpopulated and in need of a culling?


I seriously doubt whether Trump cares if the US is overpopulated or not.
I don't think he cares about the health of our society ( and I mean that in a non medical context )
I don't think that's on his agenda.

IMO....think 'fire sale' and an autocracy.
The later seems obvious throughout his term.


----------



## Johnny b

* Golf, handshakes and a Mar-a-Lago conga line: Squandered week highlights Trump's lack of COVID-19 focus *

https://www.usatoday.com/in-depth/n...p-partied-golfed-held-fundraisers/2941076001/



> By Friday, March 6, there was no escaping the fact that the spread of the novel coronavirus would soon upend American life.
> 
> Armed with all of that evidence, President Donald Trump spent the next week treating COVID-19 in much the same way that he had over the previous two months: he hosted large gatherings at Mar-a-Lago, went golfing, attended fundraisers, dispensed misinformation about the virus and flouted social distancing guidelines known to stem its spread.
> 
> ......the message was clear - life could proceed as normal.
> 
> USA TODAY interviewed half a dozen experts in epidemiology, economics and the medical supply chain who said Trump squandered an opportunity that week, as he had for months, to take significant steps that would have saved lives and put the country in a better position to fight the virus.


As I posted here:
https://forums.techguy.org/threads/coronavirus-spread-to-eu-usa.1239391/page-2#post-9691041

Trump had been given the knowledge and assessments from his own administration on how severe this pandemic could be for the US.

As early as late November.

Did he waste 3 1/2 months before declaring an emergency.
Or did he delay a response for 3 1/2 months?

Who benefited the most from that delay?
Perhaps the ultra wealthy, elements of the 1%'ers, of large corporations flush with cash, and of hedge funds.....the serious money behind Trump.

It's about opportunity. The 'Art of the Deal'.
Of interest concerning that book:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Art_of_the_Deal
This excerpt:


> In 1988, Trump set up the Donald J. Trump Foundation to give away royalties from the book's sales, in Trump's words, promising four or five million dollars "to the homeless, to Vietnam veterans, for AIDS, multiple sclerosis."
> 
> According to a Washington Post investigation those donations largely did not happen: the paper said "he gave less to those causes than he did to his older daughter's ballet school."


And what happened to the Donald J. Trump Foundation?
Why, this:
* Judge signs off on shutdown of Trump Foundation after 'pattern of illegality' *
https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2018/dec/18/trump-foundation-shutdown-lawsuit

https://www.nytimes.com/2018/12/18/nyregion/ny-ag-underwood-trump-foundation.html

*Judge Says Trump Must Pay $2 Million Over Misuse Of Foundation Funds*
https://www.npr.org/2019/11/07/7772...pay-2-million-over-misuse-of-foundation-funds

Yes...Trump lies.
Yes...Trump does it for advantage. 
It's all about the 'deal'.
And our society is not included.

Edit: So you all better get back to work in order to drive those stock prices back up.


----------



## waner

Johnny b said:


> I'm not so much afraid as I am concerned.
> 
> It would be interesting to see the take on vaccinations against coronavirus infection by the anti-vaxxers and Christian Science type cults.
> 
> I see the Health Ranger ( Mike Adams ) is still at it with his nonsense.
> https://healthrangerreport.com/
> 
> And now I see Adams has aligned himself with Alex Jones (    )
> https://theness.com/neurologicablog/index.php/new-coronavirus-facts-and-misinformation/
> 
> Infowars:
> https://www.infowars.com/coronavirus-chinese-espionage-behind-wuhan-bioweapon/
> * Coronavirus: Chinese Espionage Behind Wuhan Bioweapon *
> 
> Well.........hmmmm.......


It is not ture! Take care.


----------



## Johnny b

* Trump Says Widespread Coronavirus Testing 'Would Never Happen' and Isn't Needed To Reopen Country *

https://www.newsweek.com/trump-says...ppen-isnt-needed-reopen-country-1497210?amp=1



> President Donald Trump on Thursday said a widespread COVID-19 testing program to assess whether workers can safely return to their workplaces is "never going to happen" in the United States.
> 
> ..................only .61 percent of the 330 million U.S. population has been tested for COVID-19.


You all better get back to work now in order to drive those stock prices back up as quickly as possible.


----------



## Johnny b

waner said:


> It is not ture! Take care.


In regards to?


----------



## waner

Johnny b said:


> In regards to?


Someone said: Coronavirus: Chinese Espionage Behind Wuhan Bioweapon. --- It is not ture


----------



## Johnny b

waner said:


> Someone said: Coronavirus: Chinese Espionage Behind Wuhan Bioweapon. --- It is not ture


That was Alex Jones. Conspiracy theorist.

Correct.
It's been proven false.


----------



## Johnny b

Apparently Trump wants America to believe that what you don't know.... won't hurt you.

* Trump administration pulls funding for drive-through COVID-19 testing *
https://arstechnica.com/tech-policy...s-funding-for-drive-through-covid-19-testing/



> One of the biggest challenges hampering US institutional response to the COVID-19 crisis is testing: when you can't identify who has the disease, you can't tell who might transmit it, or where they might do so. After critical months of delay, the US finally ramped up testing, but now, just as experts forecast many states are heading into the peak of this emergency, the federal government is ending funding for some successful testing programs.
> 
> The feds will stop covering the tab for most community testing sites as of Friday (tomorrow), April 10, NPR reports.


*Federal Support Ends For Coronavirus Testing Sites As Pandemic Peak Nears *

https://www.npr.org/sections/corona...r-coronavirus-testing-sites-end-as-peak-nears


----------



## Wino

"I don't take responsibility at all," said President Donald Trump in the Rose Garden on March 13. Those words will probably end up as the epitaph of his presidency, the single sentence that sums it all up."

https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/a...-paying-the-price-for-trumps-failures/609532/

David Frum article - it's a long read that chronicles this fiasco by the orange scourge, but is well worth the time to read. If only the MAGA's could take off their blinders and see it for what it is.



> Trump has mouthed the slogan "America first," but he has never acted on it. It has always been "Trump first." His business first. His excuses first. His pathetic vanity first.
> 
> Trump has taken millions in payments from the Treasury. He has taken millions in payments from U.S. businesses and foreign governments. He has taken millions in payments from the Republican Party and his own inaugural committee. He has taken so much that does not belong to him, that was unethical and even illegal for him to take. But responsibility? No, he will not take that.
> 
> Yet responsibility falls upon Trump, whether he takes it or not. No matter how much he deflects and insults and snivels and whines, this American catastrophe is on his hands and on his head.


----------



## Wino

Johnny b said:


> Trump: one lie after another.
> 
> After many weeks of repeatedly telling US citizens we had nothing to worry about, Trump now claims he knew all along there was a pandemic brewing in China.
> 
> * Trump Now Claims He Always Knew the Coronavirus Would Be a Pandemic *
> https://www.nytimes.com/2020/03/17/us/politics/trump-coronavirus.html
> 
> That he knew is correct and probably the only truthful statement he's made about the COVID-19 pandemic.
> 
> * When the White House was first warned of coronavirus *
> https://abcnews.go.com/Politics/int...isis-early-november-sources/story?id=70031273
> 
> (Note: The Pentagon needs to explain this discrepancy IMO. Perhaps an investigation is necessary. )
> 
> And now he lies again:
> 
> * Trump blames WHO for getting coronavirus pandemic wrong, threatens to withhold funding *
> https://www.cnbc.com/2020/04/07/tru...emic-wrong-threatens-to-withhold-funding.html
> 
> Who allowed COVID-19 to devastate the US with out any attempt to mitigate the impact of this pandemic after becoming knowledgeable of the situation one might ask.
> The man responsible is the President of the United States of America who has stated :
> 
> 'Why' is a serious question. Why did he ignore the warnings?
> 
> Several possibilities.
> He's been spinning the truth for obvious political reasons.
> And this point I've mentioned in the past.....a fire sale.
> Perhaps both.
> 
> He is after all a malevolent opportunist.


If WHO wants their funds back, they could always dig up dirt on Joe Biden.


----------



## steppenwolf

Johnny b said:


> Apparently Trump wants America to believe that what you don't know.... won't hurt you.
> 
> * Trump administration pulls funding for drive-through COVID-19 testing *
> https://arstechnica.com/tech-policy...s-funding-for-drive-through-covid-19-testing/
> 
> *Federal Support Ends For Coronavirus Testing Sites As Pandemic Peak Nears *
> 
> https://www.npr.org/sections/corona...r-coronavirus-testing-sites-end-as-peak-nears


what makes you think the tests are accurate?


----------



## Johnny b

steppenwolf said:


> what makes you think the tests are accurate?


The best minds of scientists and doctors.

Does something/someone make you believe they aren't?
Like: Politicians? Alex Jones, Joe Imbriano or perhaps some other loon?


----------



## steppenwolf

Johnny b said:


> The best minds of scientists and doctors.
> 
> Does something/someone make you believe they aren't?
> Like: Politicians? Alex Jones, Joe Imbriano or perhaps some other loon?


ha ha youre joking


----------



## Johnny b

steppenwolf said:


> ha ha youre joking


What, you couldn't find an Imbiano or Jones video to back you up?


----------



## Johnny b

> Does something/someone make you believe they aren't?
> Like: Politicians? Alex Jones, Joe Imbriano or perhaps some other loon?


So, from what source do you base an opinion on steppenwolf?


----------



## Brigham

I am not a spreader of fake news, or a conspiracy theorist. I just can't understand why the death rate attributed to covid19 is not subject to this test. Daily death rate in 2019 compared to daily death rate in 2020. Just take the 2019 number away from the 2020 number and the difference is the number of covid 19 deaths, over the average. I have not seen this comparison mentioned anywhere. Perhaps I have missed something. If I have I'm sure somebody will let me know.


----------



## Johnny b

Brigham said:


> I am not a spreader of fake news, or a conspiracy theorist. I just can't understand why the death rate attributed to covid19 is not subject to this test. Daily death rate in 2019 compared to daily death rate in 2020. Just take the 2019 number away from the 2020 number and the difference is the number of covid 19 deaths, over the average. I have not seen this comparison mentioned anywhere. Perhaps I have missed something. If I have I'm sure somebody will let me know.


What are you testing/comparing?

There were no recorded CORVID-19 deaths in the US during 2019.
To make a comparison even more difficult if there had been COVID-19 deaths in 2019 , since there are infected victims that are at risk more than other victims because of existing health problems, how would you determine from a data sheet, who would have suffered a natural death or death from a different cause with in that time period?
COVID-19 is also attacking healthy people, that die from it.

What kind of a test/comparison could you even devise?
Deaths due to COVID-19 in the US in 2019 = 0
Deaths due to COVID-19 in the US in 2020 at the moment = 20,000 + and increasing.

Anyway, when comparing recent viral outbreaks, what we are seeing with the present coronavirus is a more contagious disease that takes longer to manifest symptoms.
The result is obvious. 
A greater number of infected exist at any one time.
Our health systems too often are overtaxed and on the verge of failing because of that.

IMO, the death argument is fallacious.
The greater danger nations around the world face is both a collapse of health and economic systems if the current attempts of control were to fail or be rescinded too soon. Social disorder would then be a concern.

China had to go to very draconian rules of 'social distancing' and if you look at the data graph at the Johns Hopkins site, their strictness shows better results than other nations.
Most of those infected have recovered and the number of deaths in the largest populated nation on Earth are significantly lower than the US with a smaller population.

Our political leaders in the US failed us.
It's now known Trump was aware of how serious this pandemic would be ( by his own admission ) but waited 3 months before doing anything, all the while telling the public there was nothing to worry about, just go about your normal lives.
Add to that scenario, previous Federal budgetary cuts in health care with diminished and not restocked medical repositories.
And there was no early attempt ( in that 3 month gap ) to prepare and mitigate the damage.

In the US, there are groups resisting social distancing. 
From the young that want to party to the fundamentally religious that want to worship together in large groups. There are the radical political and tin hat types still arguing this is all fakery and hoax.

Look at the JH stats, especially where the greatest number of confirmed infected and number of deaths exist. It's my country, the US.

Look what happened in England from initially embracing herd immunity.

It's real.

While I think most Americans realize the dangers and comply to safety regulations, it feels like living next to small groups of death cultists at times.


----------



## Johnny b

For smart phones.

I am on a PC, but I see Google News is number one on their list.
I use their web site, also.
But it's really a news feed reader.
https://www.1stheadlines.com/ does the same.

But safe? ......well there is a lot of controversy about Google and privacy concerns 

I'm already using
BBC News
CNN News
The New York Times
Financial Times (FT)

And many others including Barons, Wall Street Journal, Yahoo Finance.
Hell, I even peek into Fox News from time to time. 
But just the links to their web sites, no apps.

I don't need to install any apps to do so on a PC.
I simply visit their web sites.

As far as COVID-19 statistics, it appears Johns Hopkins has set up the best web site:
https://coronavirus.jhu.edu/map.html

Edit: well I see your post was deleted 
Spamming or?


----------



## Cookiegal

Johnny b said:


> Spamming


Yup.


----------



## Johnny b

LOL!


----------



## SeanLaurence

Brigham said:


> I am not a spreader of fake news, or a conspiracy theorist. I just can't understand why the death rate attributed to covid19 is not subject to this test. Daily death rate in 2019 compared to daily death rate in 2020. Just take the 2019 number away from the 2020 number and the difference is the number of covid 19 deaths, over the average. I have not seen this comparison mentioned anywhere. Perhaps I have missed something. If I have I'm sure somebody will let me know.


Here is an example of a gross comparison:
https://healthweather.us/?mode=Atypical

But to answer your question, I believe there are two reasons why this methodology is not as commonly used:
1) Most people believe that individual case counts would be more accurate. That may not be true, given the number of false positives and negatives, and the under counting of cases due to the rationing of tests.
2) Early on in the pandemic, the number of cases and deaths are much fewer than the normal number of deaths by other causes, so you would not be able to see evidence of the epidemic above the noise. But it is important to see the rate of spread of the epidemic at that early stage so that we can take action as swiftly as possible.


----------



## Brigham

Johnny b said:


> What are you testing/comparing?
> 
> There were no recorded CORVID-19 deaths in the US during 2019.
> To make a comparison even more difficult if there had been COVID-19 deaths in 2019 , since there are infected victims that are at risk more than other victims because of existing health problems, how would you determine from a data sheet, who would have suffered a natural death or death from a different cause with in that time period?
> COVID-19 is also attacking healthy people, that die from it.
> 
> What kind of a test/comparison could you even devise?
> Deaths due to COVID-19 in the US in 2019 = 0
> Deaths due to COVID-19 in the US in 2020 at the moment = 20,000 + and increasing.
> 
> Anyway, when comparing recent viral outbreaks, what we are seeing with the present coronavirus is a more contagious disease that takes longer to manifest symptoms.
> The result is obvious.
> A greater number of infected exist at any one time.
> Our health systems too often are overtaxed and on the verge of failing because of that.
> 
> IMO, the death argument is fallacious.
> The greater danger nations around the world face is both a collapse of health and economic systems if the current attempts of control were to fail or be rescinded too soon. Social disorder would then be a concern.
> 
> China had to go to very draconian rules of 'social distancing' and if you look at the data graph at the Johns Hopkins site, their strictness shows better results than other nations.
> Most of those infected have recovered and the number of deaths in the largest populated nation on Earth are significantly lower than the US with a smaller population.
> 
> Our political leaders in the US failed us.
> It's now known Trump was aware of how serious this pandemic would be ( by his own admission ) but waited 3 months before doing anything, all the while telling the public there was nothing to worry about, just go about your normal lives.
> Add to that scenario, previous Federal budgetary cuts in health care with diminished and not restocked medical repositories.
> And there was no early attempt ( in that 3 month gap ) to prepare and mitigate the damage.
> 
> In the US, there are groups resisting social distancing.
> From the young that want to party to the fundamentally religious that want to worship together in large groups. There are the radical political and tin hat types still arguing this is all fakery and hoax.
> 
> Look at the JH stats, especially where the greatest number of confirmed infected and number of deaths exist. It's my country, the US.
> 
> Look what happened in England from initially embracing herd immunity.
> 
> It's real.
> 
> While I think most Americans realize the dangers and comply to safety regulations, it feels like living next to small groups of death cultists at times.


You didn't read my post. I know that there were no covid19 deaths in 2019. However there are deaths. The comparison I used were all deaths to all deaths.


----------



## Johnny b

Brigham said:


> ............ I know that there were no covid19 deaths in 2019. However there are deaths. The comparison I used were all deaths to all deaths.


Indeed!

Sean and I posted why that was fallacious logic.

An issue of unlike comparisons.

edit:
In addition, there was no lock down ( stay at home or shelter in place ) order in 2019.
Logically, with less traffic on streets, highways and interstates, the death toll from auto/truck accidents will vary.
As will crime statistics.
Domestic violence will likely increase.
With hospitals over burdened, how many ill from other than COVID-19 are at greater risk.
In 2019, no masks were worn to avoid the flu. In 2020, masks are being worn to avoid COVID-19, but would also be effective in reducing flu and any other airborne respiratory disease.

Essentially, with out specific data other than a death count, there can be no reasonable comparison.

Sean's graph was an example of how leaving out potential factors results in a misrepresentation.


----------



## SeanLaurence

Brigham said:


> You didn't read my post. I know that there were no covid19 deaths in 2019. However there are deaths. The comparison I used were all deaths to all deaths.


The Covid-19 virus is a bit hard to get your head around. We are fortunate to have prior pandemics in recorded history to look to in order to project what might happen if we ignore the pandemic.
One of the scariest things about the current virus is the way that infected people can spread the virus for two weeks prior to showing any symptoms. During the 1918 pandemic is was only a matter of a few days between infection and the onset of symptoms. The death rates between then and now are similar. 
If we practice "Social Distancing" we can lower the infection rate, but ultimately, there are only two ways out of this: Allow most people to get infected, and thus develop herd immunity, at the expense of an unacceptable number of deaths or, wait until a vaccine is developed and administered to most people.
Paradoxically, the better the job we do at "Flattening the curve" with social distancing, the longer it will take to get out of this - but way fewer people will die. 
Other than using history as your guide, the only way to observe the difference between approaches is to compare the progress of the pandemic between jurisdictions.


----------



## Brigham

SeanLaurence said:


> The Covid-19 virus is a bit hard to get your head around. We are fortunate to have prior pandemics in recorded history to look to in order to project what might happen if we ignore the pandemic.
> One of the scariest things about the current virus is the way that infected people can spread the virus for two weeks prior to showing any symptoms. During the 1918 pandemic is was only a matter of a few days between infection and the onset of symptoms. The death rates between then and now are similar.
> If we practice "Social Distancing" we can lower the infection rate, but ultimately, there are only two ways out of this: Allow most people to get infected, and thus develop herd immunity, at the expense of an unacceptable number of deaths or, wait until a vaccine is developed and administered to most people.
> Paradoxically, the better the job we do at "Flattening the curve" with social distancing, the longer it will take to get out of this - but way fewer people will die.
> Other than using history as your guide, the only way to observe the difference between approaches is to compare the progress of the pandemic between jurisdictions.


You say let most people get infected. I think that will happen eventually. Anyone that isn't will be given the vaccine, again eventually, and this epidemic will be relegated to the loads of virus diseases that will crop up from time to time. I like your approach to this problem Sean.


----------



## SeanLaurence

Brigham said:


> You say let most people get infected. I think that will happen eventually. Anyone that isn't will be given the vaccine, again eventually, and this epidemic will be relegated to the loads of virus diseases that will crop up from time to time. I like your approach to this problem Sean.


For a guy in your 80's, you seem to be very cavalier about the possibility of your own death. You must have no Heart Disease, Hypertension or Diabetes to put you in the highest risk group.
"Things changed swiftly after an epidemiological model from Imperial College London projected that without drastic interventions, more than half a million Britons would die from COVID-19. The report also projected more than 2 million deaths in the United States, again barring interventions"

https://www.theatlantic.com/technol...avirus-models-arent-supposed-be-right/609271/


----------



## Brigham

I have controlled hypertension and type 2 diabetes. Death doesn't worry me, although being an atheist I am clinging on to life because I don't think there is anything else.


----------



## Johnny b

Just pointing out...the issue we're facing goes beyond survival of the individual.
The strengths of our social structures are being challenged.
The quality of life diminished.
This is what appeared to have concerned zebanovich, would/could humanity address the situation?



Brigham said:


> ................Death doesn't worry me, although being an atheist I am clinging on to life because I don't think there is anything else.


This thread is also about the status of humanity, social structures and civilization.
As Sean pointed out, at the moment, the options are few.
And the severity made worse by ignorant and at times, malign leadership.

Will humanity survive? I think so.
But our future now looks grimmer than need be.


----------



## Johnny b

*Study of Trump-touted chloroquine for coronavirus stopped due to heart problems, deaths*
https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/2020/04/15/coronavirus-chloroquine-test-halted-drug/2983129001/

Stable genius, eh?



> A double-blind research study of a drug touted by President Donald Trump early on to treat coronavirus found it to be so dangerous at high doses the trial was shut down after six days.


----------



## Johnny b

Statistics and reality.
Only about 1% of the US population has been tested for COVID-19 infection.
And here is an article explaining the concept of 'positivity rate' and how it relates to relative/comparative rates of infection.

It's a long read, but imo, a reality that doesn't seem to have been shown to the public till now:

* A New Statistic Reveals Why America's COVID-19 Numbers Are Flat *

https://www.theatlantic.com/technol...reak-out-control-test-positivity-rate/610132/



> The growth in the number of new tests completed per day has also plateaued. Since April 1, the country has tested roughly 145,000 people every day with no steady upward trajectory. The growth in the number of new cases per day, and the growth in the number of new tests per day, are very tightly correlated.












Only 1% of the population has been tested so far and with the consideration of the concept 'positivity rate', would increasing the test rate result in statistics showing a higher infection rate as the article suggests?



> * The growth in the number of new cases per day, and the growth in the number of new tests per day, are very tightly correlated. *


( kinda scary, imo )


----------



## Johnny b

I was looking at Johns Hopkins COVID-19 data map and came upon this discrepancy and nothing in a search to explain it.
Notice the graph in the lower right hand corner of the field.
That graph represents the daily deaths in New Hampshire.
My question, what is a 'negative death'?
Anyone with a solution?


----------



## Wino

Resurrection ?


----------



## Johnny b

You gotta wonder ......


----------



## Johnny b

There's now a caution on New Hampshire's graph, "Cannot access data" and the discrepancy has been removed.
Problem solved......( probably human error )


----------



## Johnny b

New data on Ohio makes the situation look worse than several days ago when it was thought the infection rate had peaked.


----------



## SeanLaurence

Johnny b said:


> New data on Ohio makes the situation look worse than several days ago when it was thought the infection rate had peaked.


You really can't ever assume where you are on "the curve". You can only view where you were on the curve after a fair bit of time has passed.

I would also assume that the data reported on the site is only a fair approximation of reality. It is collected from a wide variety of sources that use varying methodologies and cutoff times.
There is also the built in under-count. There are lots of (mild) cases where there is no testing is done and the patients are told to go home and come back if they get worse.
And then you the cases where someone comes into the hospital with a heart attack and dies, but tests positive for the covid-19 virus. Which COD bucket do you put him/her in?


----------



## Johnny b

SeanLaurence said:


> You really can't ever assume where you are on "the curve". You can only view where you were on the curve after a fair bit of time has passed.
> 
> .......................


Everything is relative, Sean.

It could be an issue of data collection. Easter could be an issue.
A lack of test kits. Poor record keeping. Unknown deaths in rest homes.

And the curve can change if social distancing varies.

It's still unsettling to see abrupt spiking after a short leveling period.
The unknown reason is rather depressing when our state officials had thought daily cases were peaking.

Parts of the Midwest now have groups protesting the social distancing and stay at home orders, many ignoring common sense and gathering with out masks.
That's likely to drive up the state daily infection count just on it's own.


----------



## SeanLaurence

This is unsettling Johnny b - It seems we are on the same page here.
There was a spike in the count a few days ago when New York City decided to add in a number of deaths to the Covid-19 Deaths total. I think it was over a thousand.

Remember that Trump set a low bar a few weeks ago, saying if there were only 100,000 deaths in the USA he would consider that a win. No where near that now, but ... exponential growth.

I don't eat all that much meat, but I am dismayed to hear about a number of meat processing plants on both sides of the border becoming covid "hot-spots" and having to close down. Watch out for Panic buying, Shortages, and high prices.


----------



## Johnny b

SeanLaurence said:


> .................
> 
> I don't eat all that much meat, but I am dismayed to hear about a number of meat processing plants on both sides of the border becoming covid "hot-spots" and having to close down. Watch out for Panic buying, Shortages, and high prices.


I'm not much of a meat eater, either.
Agreed. Expect shortages and higher prices.
I'm also reading of vegetable farmers losing the restaurant market because of closures and having to plow crops under.
Bad timing with Trump's trade war that's already hurting the ag industry.

Also have to wonder how many family farms are being shut down because of COVID-19 infection.
I've not read of any statistics.


----------



## valis

is it just me, or is everyone wondering how much social distancing is going on while making all these 'we will prevail' commercials I am seeing? I mean, there has to be a camera crew, support staff, etc...seems a bit hypocritical but then again, I do not know TV...


----------



## Johnny b

I seldom watch my TV other than to play a movie from a DVD.
So I haven't been following any of that activity, Tim.
I have noticed more and more lettered business pickup, panel and box trucks about on the local roads when I go out shopping.

IMO, the worst and most critical abuse of social distancing is going on with Trump's call to overthrow state governors.
Do an image search, 'liberate protestors', and you'll notice a large percentage of people not wearing masks and in close proximity to each other.

https://www.google.com/search?q=lib...WXknIEHRgZC8UQ_AUoAnoECAsQBA&biw=1214&bih=729

After leaving these protests, they'll be going home and those infected will be expanding the spread of COVID-19 among family, friends and anyone they also meet in the future.

Trump and his followers protesting social distancing and stay at home orders, only make the situation worse and are a threat to the health of those taking the pandemic seriously.


----------



## Wino

I don't intentionally mingle with MAGA's, but I'm all for them going to rallies, protest marches, rioting, worshiping and other means of mayhem along with renewal of DJT cultist political rallies and want him to mingle with the rabble. I will continue to be cautious, wear a mask, self-quarantine and avoid crowds as much as possible.


----------



## steppenwolf

i got "the stand" on vhs


----------



## Johnny b

Wino said:


> I don't intentionally mingle with MAGA's, but I'm all for them going to rallies, protest marches, rioting, worshiping and other means of mayhem along with renewal of DJT cultist political rallies and want him to mingle with the rabble. I will continue to be cautious, wear a mask, self-quarantine and avoid crowds as much as possible.


I'll be keeping on with social distancing and wearing a mask along with cleaning, into the summer no matter what our governor suggests or King Donald proclaims.
But I'd rather see those idiots that are protesting take sensible precautions so that they don't spread the disease further.


----------



## SeanLaurence

Johnny b said:


> I'll be keeping on with social distancing and wearing a mask along with cleaning, into the summer no matter what our governor suggests or King Donald proclaims.
> But I'd rather see those idiots that are protesting take sensible precautions so that they don't spread the disease further.


I thought the guy I saw interviewed that was in tears because he couldn't get grass seed or fertilizer was exceptional. Obviously the news producers thought so too. 
Where I am in B.C. we are in a level 3 lock-down, so I was able to get some gardening supplies yesterday after enduring a 40 minute line to get into Home Depot. 
I am having a hard time getting my head around how much more effective a level 4 lock-down is over level 3.

I see news reports showing people flocking to Florida beaches and I note that when using zoom lenses, people seem more crowded together than they are in reality. I would also think that the beach is one of the safer places to be as there is usually a good breeze to disperse infected droplets, a fair bit of area to spread out in, and no hard surfaces to hold virus. The problem at spring break was people crowding together at hotels and bars.


----------



## Appropriatemember

Hope its appropriate to post here:

These guys have research Ebay, Craigslists and other marketplaces, searching for fake covid19 items, such as tests kits: https://proxyway.com/guides/covid-19-research

the results are quite shocking: most of the marketplaces dont really bother instantly removing such listings. If you ask me, this is whats really messed up in this whole coronavirus situation.


----------



## Johnny b

Appropriatemember said:


> Hope its appropriate to post here:
> 
> These guys have research Ebay, Craigslists and other marketplaces, searching for fake covid19 items, such as tests kits: https://proxyway.com/guides/covid-19-research
> 
> the results are quite shocking: most of the marketplaces dont really bother instantly removing such listings. If you ask me, this is whats really ******* up in this whole coronavirus situation.


( asterisks are mine )

It certainly doesn't help.
There has been some activity/success in shutting down the large scale scammers from Alex Jones to Jim Bakker, though.
If you think about it, the shortages of medical supplies have been brought about by Federal Government's incompetence ,enhancing the attraction to these nefarious sources.

IMO, it's the Federal Government's initial denials of a pandemic and uncooperative attitude with State governments that's made a bad situation intensely worse.
With Trump's dog whistle for civil unrest before an election, political and religious radical groups protesting will likely prolong the disease longer than expected and to a greater intensity.


----------



## Cookiegal

Appropriatemember,

I've edited your post for language. Please be more careful in the future as this is a family friendly site.


----------



## Brigham

I was getting more and more frustrated about the fake news that is being promulgated everywhere, so I wrote to my MP (again). He told me that he had set up a site to dispel a lot of false news . This site is called Infotagion. I have had a quick look at it, and I thought that I would let our members in on it. Enjoy?


----------



## Johnny b

Interesting.
A lot of common sense.


----------



## Johnny b

This seems typical of the Trump Administration. Disagree with Trump's stupidity and you are out.
He acknowledges little advice that's counter to his politics and political agenda.
Reality is defined by 'The Chosen One'.

* Head of US' pandemic vaccine group says he was demoted in retaliation *
https://arstechnica.com/tech-policy...ine-group-says-he-was-demoted-in-retaliation/



> Rick Bright, who had led the Biomedical Advanced Research and Development Authority until this week, says he was transferred to a different position because he insisted on funding scientifically valid vaccine and therapy research over the objections of political appointees at HHS.
> ..................
> He goes on to be very specific about the ideas that lacked scientific merit: "Specifically, and contrary to misguided directives, I limited the broad use of chloroquine and hydroxychloroquine, promoted by the administration, but which clearly lack scientific merit."
> 
> Bright also alleges that he received criticism for acting early to fund the development of a vaccine, as well as attempts to obtain supplies that could protect people from infections-presumably protective gear like masks and gowns.
> ..................
> .......the disruption of work at BARDA does not bode well for the chaotic federal response to the pandemic. In biology, many good ideas often fail for non-obvious reasons, and so pushing multiple avenues of development is critical to ensuring that something useful-be it a diagnostic, therapy, or vaccine-becomes available as soon as possible. While the biotech industry is global and these efforts are going on around the world, there's little doubt that many of the companies best positioned to develop these technologies are based in the United States. Any sudden changes of strategy or disruptions of funding here could have global implications.


----------



## Appropriatemember

From what I understand atm, taken into consideration fake medicine, test kits, incompetence of governments and disinformation - we're the real problem, not the virus


----------



## Johnny b

Appropriatemember said:


> From what I understand atm, taken into consideration fake medicine, test kits, incompetence of governments and disinformation - we're the real problem, not the virus


We?
Speak for yourself.

The problem is a dynamic. Not a simple either/or.


----------



## Wino

The real problem is COVFEFE-45 and MAGA hats - ignorance can be cured - stupid is forever.

86/45


----------



## Johnny b

Wino said:


> ........................ stupid is forever.


There is an interesting article at Newsweek comparing Hannity and Carlson in regards as to viewers that have higher rates of coronavirus infection and death.
Carlson is reported to have come out with warnings early, Hannity was in denial.

Stupid didn't fare well.

* Coronavirus Deaths Greater Among Fox News Viewers That Prefer Hannity Over Tucker Carlson, Study Says *
https://www.newsweek.com/coronaviru...fer-hannity-over-tucker-carlson-study-1499354



> The study, titled "Misinformation During a Pandemic," was first published Sunday by the University of Chicago's Becker Friedman Institute for Economics. Researchers asserted that reduced incidences of Covid-19 and lower death rates among Fox News viewers were associated a more serious view of the health crisis taken early on by host Tucker Carlson.


Sooo....stupid isn't really forever,,,,,,in reality, it has a limited shelf life


----------



## Wino

Johnny b said:


> .......................................................Sooo....stupid isn't really forever,,,,,*,in reality, it has a limited shelf life*


Not when it is transmitted to another prior to departure !!


----------



## Johnny b

Wino said:


> Not when it is transmitted to another prior to departure !!


That would be the gift that keeps on giving


----------



## Johnny b

Wino said:


> ..........- stupid is forever.


Getting back to the topic of stupid.....how can you differentiate the difference between stupid and dementia?

Example:

* Trump touts study on sunlight to kill coronavirus, but official warns against Americans changing behavior *
https://www.usatoday.com/story/news...dy-light-humidity-weakening-covid/3008523001/

Some how, Trump's idea of killing coronavirus with sunlight ( the ultraviolet obviously ) resulted in a process of putting 'light' in a body.

Quote from the article:


> President Donald Trump touted a federal study Thursday that indicates sunlight and humidity can weaken the coronavirus - a finding that prompted the president to float the idea of treating patients with "light inside the body."
> ............
> Trump, who has used his daily White House briefings to float unproven treatment options in the past, at one point suggested the government should study bringing "light inside the body" as a possible treatment, which he asserted might be done "either through the skin or in some other way."


( didn't Joe Imbriano call blue light a death ray? :X3: )

Stupid or demented, you be the judge.


----------



## Johnny b

This is not funny.

* Twitter names Trump the 'Tide Pods' president after he suggests disinfectant injections *
https://www.usatoday.com/story/news...e-pods-jokes-after-trump-comments/3017279001/



> After President Donald Trump wondered Thursday about possibly injecting disinfectants into people infected with the coronavirus, "Tide Pods" and other household cleaners began trending on Twitter.
> 
> "And then I saw the disinfectant, where it knocks it out in one minute, and is there a way we could do something like that by injection inside or almost a cleaning," the president said during his White House press briefing. "As you see it gets in the lungs, it does a tremendous number on the lungs, so it would be interesting to check that."


Surely by now there is a reasonable question about the competence of Donald J Trump.


----------



## Wino

I posted elsewhere yesterday that nothing issuing from Trumps mouth no longer stunned me - I spoke too soon - this man is a peril to the entire world. I can imagine MAGA hats injecting or drinking Clorox and shoving UV lights into their orifices whilst plugged into 120/220 VAC.

The old Lucky Strike LS/MFT applies here - Lord Save Me from Trump. The man is a loon.


----------



## Johnny b

I remember a time when the US was great. And did great things.
But it's been a while.
This is the new normal:

* Nearly one-third of Americans believe a coronavirus vaccine exists and is being withheld, survey finds *
https://www.usatoday.com/story/news...-vaccine-exists-is-being-withheld/3004841001/



> Nearly one-third of Americans believe a vaccine already exists to prevent coronavirus infection but is being withheld from the public, while nearly half believe the COVID-19 virus was created in a lab.


And now there is the worry over people injecting themselves with disinfectants , with businesses having to post warning notices to avoid potential litigation because the fool that leads the US thinks he's a health/medical genius.
God help us all.

* Coronavirus: Dettol and Lysol maker warns against injections after Trump comments *
https://finance.yahoo.com/news/dona...tant-bleach-us-dettol-rb-lysol-094417426.html

I suspect there will be many such responses from the business world 😠


----------



## Wino

........................and a few deaths.


----------



## SeanLaurence

By this time I would imagine that most people do not take the words coming out of DJT's mouth at face value. Those that do, do it at their own peril. 
The saddest thing about this is that the US was ranked as the country most prepared for a pandemic prior to this crisis.
Was this just wishful thinking? Complacency? Or did the resistance to go into lock-down at the earliest stages of the outbreak create the sub par results we are witnessing now?
https://www.visualcapitalist.com/global-pandemic-preparedness-ranked/


----------



## Wino

The orange ignoramus now says he was being sarcastic and he was taken out of context - looked fairly convincing to me he was asking his "experts" to verify his stupidity. May be he should just shut up and let the adults handle the updates. By Zeus what have the voters saddled this nation with by electing this idiot as president. He has sullied this nation forever more.


----------



## Johnny b

SeanLaurence said:


> ................................
> Was this just wishful thinking? Complacency? Or did the resistance to go into lock-down at the earliest stages of the outbreak create the sub par results we are witnessing now?
> https://www.visualcapitalist.com/global-pandemic-preparedness-ranked/


IMO, I think the results we in the US are experiencing are a result of many factors.

I started to list, issues the Trump Administration ignored, issues they denied, issues of unpreparedness in facing a natural disaster and it looked like I was writing a book.

So, briefly:
Of the Trump administration
Complacency? That's putting it mildly.
Ignorance? Definitely.
Stupidity? Ditto.
Include a distrust of science.
Political maneuvering? Yes.
Being months late in a response and then telling the States they are essentially on their own. What could go wrong? (  )

Add to that the most aggressive viral infection the US has experienced in at least a century.

I think the medical profession is doing the best they can, but the hot spots have tested their resolve. Amazingly they still function. They are the heroes.

Add more.... individuals, radical political and fundamentalist groups now protesting, that don't give a damn about a society in trouble, other than their own objectives. Which only prolongs the problem.

The US currently has about 1/3 of the world wide infections.
Considering the above, it could've been a lot worse.


----------



## Couriant

Wino said:


> *The orange ignoramus now says he was being sarcastic and he was taken out of context - looked fairly convincing to me he was asking his "experts" to verify his stupidity.* May be he should just shut up and let the adults handle the updates. By Zeus what have the voters saddled this nation with by electing this idiot as president. He has sullied this nation forever more.


Anyone with common sense and/or a relatively decent IQ knows that you shouldn't joke about anything like that, especially if you are a world leader, an influential person because there will be the ID10Ts that will listen and do what he says.

At least digitial history is more harder to delete than rewriting books or burning them... He will be owned in history as probably one of the worse presidents... i can't see anyone in the near future being close to what he has done in the last 4 years.


----------



## SeanLaurence

Couriant said:


> Anyone with common sense and/or a relatively decent IQ knows that you shouldn't joke about anything like that, especially if you are a world leader, an influential person because there will be the ID10Ts that will listen and do what he says.
> 
> At least digital history is more harder to delete than rewriting books or burning them... He will be owned in history as probably one of the worse presidents... i can't see anyone in the near future being close to what he has done in the last 4 years.


The question I have in all this is: How much of the failure of the CDC to get testing kits right can be attributed to Trump? 
I see this as the biggest reason that the US is trailing the western world in its response to the pandemic. If the CDC had been able to test early as other countries did, then decisions to go into lock-down could have been made earlier, thus sparing lives.

Are there incompetent Trump appointees at the CDC? Were competent staff fired or encouraged to leave when Trump took office?


----------



## Johnny b

This is the new America.
Tennessee to be more precise:

https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/sacrifice-the-weak-sign-real/
At a reopen rally in Tennessee
Snopes: True


----------



## Wino

Trump stating he was being "sarcastic" re disinfectants and UV lights - how about just plain old stupid !!


----------



## Johnny b

Wino said:


> Trump ----------------------------------> how about just plain old stupid !!


That too. :up:


----------



## Littlefield

Healight.
*Aytu BioScience Signs Exclusive Global License with Cedars-Sinai for Potential Coronavirus Treatment.
Copy paste made headline big LOL*
https://irdirect.net/prviewer/release/id/4294930


----------



## Johnny b

Littlefield said:


> Healight.
> *Aytu BioScience Signs Exclusive Global License with Cedars-Sinai for Potential Coronavirus Treatment.
> Copy paste made headline big LOL*
> https://irdirect.net/prviewer/release/id/4294930


How did they get around the cancer issue?


----------



## Littlefield

Guess it is a low specific spectrum of UV-A light.


----------



## Johnny b

https://aytubio.com/healight/



> While UVC light has broad germicidal properties, it is also harmful to mammalian (human) cells. Alternatively, UVA and UVB devices have been FDA-approved with indications to treat human diseases including skin lymphoma, eczema, and psoriasis. Of the three spectrums, *UVA light appears to cause the least damage to mammalian cells.* Recent advances in light emitting diodes (LEDs) have made it much more feasible to manufacture and apply narrow band (NB) UVA light to internal organs.


Appears? lol!

Further


> An abstract led by the team at Cedars-Sinai Medical Center was published in the United European Gastroenterology Journal, October 2019, titled "Internally Applied Ultraviolet Light as a Novel Approach for Effective and Safe Anti-Microbial Treatment." Here, the authors show that UVA light exhibits significant in vitro bactericidal effects in an array of clinically important bacteria.


In vitro: performed or taking place in a test tube, culture dish, or elsewhere *outside a living organism.*

In the same paragraph:


> Additionally, this is the first study using intracolonic UVA application, which reports that UVA exposure is not associated with endoscopic or histologic injury. These findings suggest that UVA therapy can potentially provide a safe and effective novel approach to antimicrobial treatment via phototherapy on internal organs.


Suggest?
With out testing (edit)within a living organism.
In other words, 'they' don't really know if it is hazardous.

.....................

From Littlefields link
https://irdirect.net/prviewer/release/id/4294930



> This press release includes forward-looking statements within the meaning of Section 27A of the Securities Act of 1933, as amended, and Section 21E of the Securities Exchange Act of 1934, or the Exchange Act. All statements other than statements of historical facts contained in this presentation, are forward-looking statements. Forward-looking statements are generally written in the future tense and/or are preceded by words such as ''may,'' ''will,'' ''should,'' ''forecast,'' ''could,'' ''expect,'' ''suggest,'' ''believe,'' ''estimate,'' ''continue,'' ''anticipate,'' ''intend,'' ''plan,'' or similar words, or the negatives of such terms or other variations on such terms or comparable terminology. These statements are just predictions and are subject to risks and uncertainties that could cause the actual events or results to differ materially. These risks and uncertainties include, among others: our ability to successfully commercialize Healight Platform Technology, our ability to obtain FDA approval for the Healight Platform Technology, the effectiveness of the Healight Platform Technology in treating patients with COVID-19 or other illnesses, our ability to adequately protect the intellectual property associated with the Healight Platform Technology, regulatory delays, the reliability of the Healight Platform Technology in killing viruses and bacteria, market acceptance of UV based medical devices, risks associated with the COVID-19 Rapid Test including our ability to enforce the exclusivity provisions of the distribution agreement, the reliability of serological testing in detecting COVID-19, ...............


And a lot more lawyer speak to cover their :X3:'s

I think I'll wait on someone like Fauci for an opinion


----------



## Johnny b

Any clinical studies on injecting Clorox or Lysol as a 'treatment'?
(Might just as well get them out of the way at the same time  )


----------



## 2twenty2

😷


Johnny b said:


> Any clinical studies on injecting Clorox or Lysol as a 'treatment'?
> (Might just as well get them out of the way at the same time  )


😲 LOL Trump


----------



## Johnny b

* Trump Hints at Cancelling Coronavirus Press Briefings: 'What is The Purpose?' *
https://www.newsweek.com/trump-coronavirus-briefings-1500256



> President Donald Trump wrote on Twitter Saturday that the daily coronavirus briefings were "not worth the time & effort" after his remarks on injecting disinfectant drew criticism earlier this week.


Johnny b's FactCheck.......True. (  )

And now for the whining:



> Posting on Twitter last night, the president wrote: "What is the purpose of having White House News Conferences when the Lamestream Media asks nothing but hostile questions, & then refuses to report the truth or facts accurately.
> 
> "They get record ratings, & the American people get nothing but Fake News. Not worth the time & effort!"


Yeah, tough break having his Coronavirus Press Briefing comments recorded. 



> "They have been called out & embarrassed on this, even admitting they were wrong, but continue to spread the lie!"


MSNBC doesn't seem embarrassed in the least:






In the spirit of giving equal time to the loons:


----------



## Wino

Think it has more to do with with reporters refusing to exchange assigned seats at briefing - that's why it was short Friday and nothing on Saturday. The man child didn't get his way and took his toys home to sulk. Pathetic and small minded twit that he be.


----------



## Johnny b

Opinion piece.
Jake Tapper:

*Trump's 'anti-scientific musings have been dangerous,' CNN's Jake Tapper says *
https://www.cnn.com/2020/04/26/politics/jake-tapper-trump-comments-cnntv/index.html

Last sentence:



> There is going to be a history of this era written and those who are pretending this irresponsibility is not happening, they will be remembered as villains.


How true!


----------



## Johnny b

I've commented many times that the issue with COVID-19 is mostly about a rate of infections that is flooding our health providers.

This article takes the comparison argument further.
The death numbers for flu in the US are not a statistic. They are an estimated number generated mathematically by "various coefficients produced through complicated algorithms."

ScientificAmerican.com
* Comparing COVID-19 Deaths to Flu Deaths Is like Comparing Apples to Oranges *
https://blogs.scientificamerican.co...u-deaths-is-like-comparing-apples-to-oranges/

This stands out:


> The 25,000 to 69,000 numbers that Trump cited do not represent counted flu deaths per year; they are estimates that the CDC produces by multiplying the number of flu death counts reported by various coefficients produced through complicated algorithms. These coefficients are based on assumptions of how many cases, hospitalizations, and deaths they believe went unreported. In the last six flu seasons, the CDC's reported number of actual confirmed flu deaths-that is, counting flu deaths the way we are currently counting deaths from the coronavirus-has ranged from 3,448 to 15,620, which far lower than the numbers commonly repeated by public officials and even public health experts.


*....the CDC's reported number of actual confirmed flu deaths....has ranged from 3,448 to 15,620 *
From COVID-19 infections in the US, there are currently at least 61,000 confirmed deaths and climbing.

And to my point in the beginning of this post:



> The question remains. Can we accurately compare the toll of the flu to the toll of the coronavirus pandemic?
> 
> To do this, we have to compare counted deaths to counted deaths, not counted deaths to wildly inflated statistical estimates. If we compare, for instance, the number of people who died in the United States from COVID-19 in the second full week of April to the number of people who died from influenza during the worst week of the past seven flu seasons (as reported to the CDC), *we find that the novel coronavirus killed between 9.5 and 44 times more people than seasonal flu.* In other words, the coronavirus is not anything like the flu: It is much, much worse.


( bolding is mine )


----------



## SeanLaurence

But don't stop there Johnny B.
When looking at actual deaths from all causes, New York city has recorded 325% more deaths than normal.
This includes fewer deaths due to things like traffic accidents.
Because it is so hard to get a count of cases, there is an under count of both infections and deaths.

https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2020/04/28/us/coronavirus-death-toll-total.html


----------



## Johnny b

* Donald Trump team blocks Anthony Fauci from testifying before congressional committee *
https://www.usatoday.com/story/news...-fauci-testifying-before-congress/3070048001/



> The White House is blocking epidemic expert Anthony Fauci from testifying before a congressional committee next week, less than two months after Fauci critiqued the nation's coronavirus testing system during a public hearing.
> 
> The House Appropriations Committee had sought Fauci's testimony at a Wednesday subcommittee hearing to look into the Trump administration's response to the coronavirus pandemic that has killed nearly 65,000 Americans.
> 
> "We have been informed by an administration official that the White House has blocked Dr. Fauci from testifying," committee spokesman Evan Hollander said Friday.


What ever could King Donald be afraid of? (rhetorical)


----------



## Johnny b

The protest mentality has even entered into the mindset of Ohio State legislators.
In the midst of a global crisis, Republicans in Ohio's House intend to limit the power of Ohio's health department director, Susan Acton and Governor Dewine in regards to the COVID-19 crisis and place themselves as a decision making panel.

* Ohio House seeks to limit Acton's power; DeWine reacts *
https://www.daytondailynews.com/new...r-power-dewine-reacts/VqHSvHDl6eVDSCdwi2flbM/



> COLUMBUS -
> House Republicans are working to decriminalize disobeying public health orders and to limit the power of Ohio's health department director, drawing criticism from Gov. Mike DeWine and Dayton Mayor Nan Whaley among others.
> 
> .......
> Another amendment, to Senate Bill 1, would only allow an order to be extended if it receives approval from the Joint Committee on Agency Rule Review, Cleveland.com reported.
> 
> ............
> ...........the bill is retroactive to April 29, Cleveland.com said would include the state's most recent stay safe Ohio order.


----------



## Johnny b

From the Random forum:
https://forums.techguy.org/threads/...ppening-around-the-world.1240672/post-9700260

For the US, it looks like COVID-19 + Trump might just take us back to the Dark Ages after all.
What Trump couldn't destroy alone, now becomes possible.


----------



## SeanLaurence

I am sorry Johnny, I've got not optimism for you today.
Can you explain how "disobeying public health orders" are criminalized in Ohio?
Has anyone been arrested or convicted? I did hear a story in right wing media of a woman being arrested when she allowed her child to play on a closed playground.
I am thinking that the criminal law is there to dissuade blatant flaunting of the orders - ie events held with large, dense groups.


----------



## Johnny b

SeanLaurence said:


> I am sorry Johnny, I've got not optimism for you today.
> Can you explain how "disobeying public health orders" are criminalized in Ohio?
> Has anyone been arrested or convicted? I did hear a story in right wing media of a woman being arrested when she allowed her child to play on a closed playground.
> I am thinking that the criminal law is there to dissuade blatant flaunting of the orders - ie events held with large, dense groups.





> Can you explain how "disobeying public health orders" are criminalized in Ohio?


To the best of my knowledge, the health orders haven't resulted in any arrests or fines in Ohio.
Non essential businesses were ordered closed. There have been some small businesses claiming they were going t violate the orders, but I haven't read of any arrests there, either.
More like suggestions.
Ohio is opening up, but slowly with conventional wisdom of a wait a while and let's see how well this is working, attitude
In Ohio, the language is 'stay at home', not 'stay quarantined in place or quarantined at home'.
Allowances were given to travel for needful things, food, medicine, doctor visits, the essentials.
Currently, only businesses and their employees are required to wear masks.
Common sense stuff.

The accusations seem to be mostly BS right wing rhetoric and a few nut jobs like fundamentalists and antivaxxers complimenting the scene.


----------



## Johnny b

This is worthy of a read.
It's an article about the wistleblower that held a job of importance as the head of the Biomedical Advanced Research and Development Authority. 
Rick Bright, an immunology expert.

In this article, he addresses cronyism, corruption and intentional rejection of advice, from the lack of medical supplies to the serious of the infection and it's potential impact. 
His complaints about recommendations of ineffectual drugs.
Even the minions of Trump denial of COVID-19's existence in the US early on.

* Trump admin's botched pandemic response detailed in whistleblower complaint *
https://arstechnica.com/tech-policy...ial-cronyism-steered-trump-pandemic-response/

Way too much to copy and paste.


----------



## Johnny b

Another CDC pdf that the Trump Administration didn't want the public to see.

*CDC guide to reopening was trashed by the Trump admin. It just leaked *
https://arstechnica.com/science/202...as-trashed-by-the-trump-admin-it-just-leaked/



> Public health experts at the US Centers for Disease Control and Prevention have leaked their recommendations on how to safely reopen businesses amid the COVID-19 pandemic-after officials in the Trump administration rejected the guidance and allegedly told CDC officials their plan would "never see the light of day."
> 
> The guidance lays out detailed, phased recommendations for how to safely reopen child care programs, schools, day camps, faith communities, businesses with vulnerable workers, restaurants, bars, and mass transit. Though some of the general points laid out already appear on federal websites-such as an emphasis on hand hygiene-the document uniquely offers tailored recommendations for each type of business.


pdf:
https://cdn.arstechnica.net/wp-content/uploads/2020/05/CDC-Business-Plans.pdf

It seems to me, it's safer to ignore Trump and listen to actual experts for guidance and advice.
Currently, the least safe place in all of the world seems to be the US, for COVID-19 infection and death.










(sigh)


----------



## Johnny b

The other day it was a valet of Trump's that came down with COVID-19.
Now one of Pence's aides tested positive for coronavirus and apparently everyone at the White House and those close to the Pres and VP are going to be tested daily.

Funny how the invincibles that denied everything now get what is denied most US citizens, after a 'little' scare. Testing. ......... 

* Mike Pence aide tests positive for coronavirus as vice president heads to Iowa, White House confirms *
https://www.usatoday.com/story/news...sts-positive-covid-19-reports-say/3096035001/



> Pence was traveling to Iowa to meet with faith leaders Friday to discuss reopening religious services to the public and to hold a roundtable discussion about securing the nation's food supply.
> 
> Pence's plane was delayed an hour from departing from Joint Base Andrews in suburban Maryland. Some staffers left the plane before takeoff, according to a pool report.





> Pence's office did not immediately respond to requests for comment.


He was probably thinking, 'Get those reprobate disease carrying scumbags off my plane, NOW!'


----------



## Johnny b

It looks like Trump can't even trust to be around his Secret Service any more.
They've been taking too many 'bullets' for the Prez.

* 11 Secret Service employees infected with coronavirus, 60 in self-quarantine *
https://www.usatoday.com/story/news...rvice-employees-infected-covid-19/3101578001/

Looks like COVID-19 is making it's rounds among the White House occupants.
All those people breathing the same air. What could go wrong?


----------



## Wino

Covid-19 closing in on the orange putz. Drink some Clorox, stupid.


----------



## Johnny b

I ran upon this article at Arstechnica this morning that showcased the mentality of what I think are among the modern 'villains' of today.

* Fired scientist back to peddling anti-vaxx COVID-19 conspiracy theories *
https://arstechnica.com/science/202...dling-anti-vaxx-covid-19-conspiracy-theories/

The article is worth reading in it's entirety, but the video in the article also says it all for those that don't want to take the time to read it.

This is the host of the video below, also exposing Dr. Mikovits and asking for a call to common sense:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zubin_Damania






___________________________________

This is the closest I could find to her 'movie' PLANDEMIC.
It is a point by point assessment by a doctor.
Dr. Mikhail Varshavski


----------



## SeanLaurence

Thanks for the links Johnny. My mother sent me a link to the original video and will not listen when I tell her it is nonsense. Sigh.


----------



## Johnny b

These conspiracy theorists spin such convincing imagery that starts with a small kernel of truth, many people get sucked into believing their tales.
No doubt it's always been with us, but with the Internet, imo, it spreads faster and wider though audiences.
I first saw the extremes of this shortly after 9/11 with the Loose Change video and the growth of the copycat Truther movement.
It was about that time that I first remember hearing of Alex Jones and his Infowars/Prisonplanet gig.

There's big money in it for exceptional tales.
All they need be is convincing liars.


----------



## Johnny b

Pence:

* CEOs Were Asked to Remove Masks Before Meeting With Mike Pence in Iowa *
https://slate.com/news-and-politics/2020/05/ceo-iowa-asked-remove-masks-mike-pence.html



> Mere hours after Vice President Mike Pence's press secretary tested positive for COVID-19, he was set to meet with a group of food industry executives who had gathered for a roundtable discussion in West Des Moines. But before Pence joined them on the stage, someone came in and asked all five guests to remove their masks, which they all did dutifully, reports the Intercept, which posted a segment of the live video stream of the event that showed the sequence of events. "The strange request underscored just how committed the White House is to ignoring federal health advice intended to slow the spread of the pandemic coronavirus," notes the Intercept's Robert Mackey.


......................
also:
* Unmasked in Iowa: CEOs Who Came to Meet Pence in Masks Were Asked to Remove Them *
https://theintercept.com/2020/05/09...est-exposes-folly-white-house-aversion-masks/

................................

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/arti...e-tests-positive-for-coronavirus?srnd=premium



> Vice President Mike Pence has been self-isolating from the White House following his press secretary Katie Miller's diagnosis of Covid-19 on Friday, said three people familiar with the situation. A spokesman said he'd be back at the White House on Monday.
> 
> Pence didn't attend a meeting at the White House on Saturday with Trump and top military officials. Neither did two members of the Joint Chiefs of Staff who've had their own brushes with coronavirus, Chief of Naval Operations Michael Gilday and the chief of the National Guard Bureau, Air Force General Joseph Lengyel.
> 
> A rapid-test screening at the White House ahead of Trump's meeting with military leaders in the Cabinet Room caught Lengyel's positive status, one person familiar with the matter said.
> 
> The ripple effects of Miller's diagnosis became even more extensive on Sunday, as Iowa Governor Kim Reynolds considered self-isolating because she was in contact with the aide
> 
> Iowa's state medical director, Caitlin Pedati, accompanied Reynolds on the trip and is already planning to self-isolate,.........





> Pence tested negative for coronavirus infection again on Sunday, one of the people said.


Hope that was a good test.
I'll bet a lot of people that have come in contact with Pence, now wish they hadn't.

It will be interesting to see it Corona Mike shows up for work.


----------



## Wino

Johnny b said:


> ..................................................All they need be is convincing liars.


Massive gullibility also a requirement for their followers.


----------



## Johnny b

Looks like the easiest/quickest way to get a COVID-19 test is to visit the White House, if you don't mind risking your health, that is. lol.

* White House enacts new safety precautions as coronavirus moves closer to Trump's inner circle *
https://www.usatoday.com/story/news...w-precautions-protect-trump-staff/3105283001/


----------



## Johnny b

Protesters ignoring social distancing with no protection ( masks ) only prolong the pandemic.

* Pennsylvania state lawmaker organized a crowd of more than 150, defying Gov. Wolf's orders *
https://www.usatoday.com/story/news...eting-150-defying-covid-19-orders/3105755001/



> More than 150 people attended the meeting. The vast majority were not wearing masks, and many were shaking hands, hugging and sitting close together in violation of social distancing guidelines.


All it takes is one infected individual at that gathering, and that vast majority potentially 
become new vectors for infection.

These people are like a death cult.
Business before life.


----------



## Johnny b

I'm surprised the NY Post would post this news article, being such a rabid supporter of Trump's new Nationalist ( aka fascist ) policies.

This is how COVID-19 spreads when a person ignores the safety of others.

* Partygoer jokes about having coronavirus - then infects several others *
https://nypost.com/2020/05/11/partygoer-jokes-about-having-coronavirus-infects-several-others/



> "This is an example of how good contact tracing can identify disease clusters and tell us more about the spread of disease in our community," Dr. Matthew Feaster, a Pasadena Public Health Department epidemiologist, said in a statement.


All a person has to do is read about the current commotion at the White House to understand that many of our leaders don't give a damn about the health of others until their own inner circle is breached with the disease.


----------



## Johnny b

* The US may be undercounting COVID-19 cases by a massive margin: Goldman Sachs *
https://finance.yahoo.com/news/the-...ive-margin-goldman-sachs-warns-181503102.html



> "If we assume for simplicity that (i) this 1 million excess reflects strongly symptomatic COVID-19 cases and (ii) the share of symptomatic COVID cases among employed people resembles that in the population as a whole, this implies around 2 million strongly symptomatic COVID-19 cases in the population as a whole, in a week when the official active cases stood at about 500k," wrote the analysts.











Goldman Sachs's chart of the day highlighted the massive increase in people who are employed but unable to work due to illness (Goldman Sachs)


----------



## Johnny b

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news...ence-white-house-fauci-reopenings/3089822001/

Monday:


> .............Pence conducted a call with governors from an isolated room, The Associated Press reported, while Dr. Deborah Birx and other staffers participated as usual from a conference room in the Situation Room.


----------



## Johnny b

No surprise here:

* Greatest increases of COVID deaths projected in Republican states *
https://finance.yahoo.com/news/grea...projected-in-republican-states-193205068.html



> According to a Yahoo Finance analysis of the University of Washington Institute for Health Metrics and Evaluation (IHME) coronavirus death toll model, states with Republican governors are projected to have greater death increases than those with Democratic governors.
> 
> The Yahoo Finance analysis looked at the death toll projections for all 50 states and Washington, D.C., and compared them to the current number of deaths as reported by IHME for consistency. What's more, the analysis found that Republicans govern roughly 70% of the states in the country with the highest increases in death projections.


----------



## Johnny b

* Trump says Fauci's warnings about reopening amid coronavirus crisis are not 'acceptable' *
https://www.cnbc.com/2020/05/13/cor...nings-about-reopening-are-not-acceptable.html

So sayeth the emissary of God. (  )



> Top coronavirus health expert Dr. Anthony Fauci's recent warning about the potentially dire consequences of reopening states and schools too soon was "not an acceptable answer," President Donald Trump said Wednesday.














> Trump told reporters at the White House that he was "surprised" by Fauci's answers during a hearing before the Senate Committee on Health, Education, Labor and Pensions.


----------



## Johnny b

I wonder how much longer it's going to take King Donald before he calls the Covid-19 pandemic a hoax?

* Trump privately questions whether coronavirus deaths are being overcounted as Fauci projects the opposite *

https://www.cnn.com/2020/05/13/politics/trump-fauci-coronavirus-deaths/index.html



> As the President agitates for a national reopening and looks ahead to November's election, his allies and even some of his own advisers have sown distrust in the institutions and data which underpin his coronavirus response.
> Trump himself has waded only intermittently into the fray, leaving his supporters in Congress, the White House and conservative media to plant seeds of skepticism in government facts and figures. But he hasn't tamped down on the efforts and, through his actions, has largely discounted the guidelines set forth by his own experts.
> 
> ........the efforts underway now appear designed to advance national reopening efforts that Trump believes will revive the economy and with it his reelection prospects, even as some public health experts warn it could lead to a new resurgence of the virus if executed too quickly.


And as usual, here come the contradictions:



> "Our numbers are, essentially certified numbers," the President said earlier this month. "They're individual hospitals they're putting out the numbers. I don't imagine there'd be a very big variation."
> 
> ...................
> "These models have been so wrong from day one," he told ABC News in an interview this month, voicing a level of skepticism on both official and unofficial models that has existed among his advisers for weeks.
> 
> .................
> The Washington Post first reported last week that Birx told colleagues: "There is nothing from the CDC that I can trust," a sentiment multiple officials said has pervaded some task force meetings when information from the Atlanta-based agency is presented.
> 
> ...................
> (Fauci) "Most of us feel that the number of deaths are likely higher than that number, because given the situation particularly in New York City when they were really strapped with a very serious challenge to their health care system, that there may have been people who died at home who did have Covid who are not counted as Covid because they never really got to the hospital," he said, responding to a question from Sen. Bernie Sanders of Vermont.


Unfortunately, bad policy started with Trump's initial denial of a pandemic and isn't likely to improve.


----------



## Kapustin Yar

zebanovich said:


> Coronavirus seems to be spreading fast and wide and it's mutation status is still not well understood.
> https://www.euronews.com/2020/01/22...tor-general-statement-on-coronavirus-outbreak
> 
> Are you afraid?
> Do you think this is just the beginning of potentially more hazardous outbreak?
> 
> To me it sounds like a return to dark ages.


Well its definitely mutating. Today the CDC announced that there is an offshoot to the CV that affects kids. Is it a return to the dark ages I have to say it couldn't have happened under a president who spreads lies, and calls those who tell the truth, liars. That's what Hitler did.


----------



## Kapustin Yar

Johnny b said:


> * Trump says Fauci's warnings about reopening amid coronavirus crisis are not 'acceptable' *
> https://www.cnbc.com/2020/05/13/cor...nings-about-reopening-are-not-acceptable.html
> 
> So sayeth the emissary of God. (  )
> 
> View attachment 276915


Where I live in Western Washington State things have already returned to normal with the exception of Restaurants, clubs, concerts and places where crowds meet. Traffic is normal and people are not wearing masks anymore. Social distancing is practiced in a few places whereas 2 weeks ago it was a lot more.

I think this is dangerous because the CV can come back. But there is a limit to how much isolation we can take. At a certain point, people will break and won't obey the law anymore because its too hard. I think we are at that point now.

Last year 8M people died of cancer. Today 85k died of the CV. I think people are no longer afraid of Covid.


----------



## Johnny b

Kapustin Yar said:


> Where I live in Western Washington State things have already returned to normal with the exception of Restaurants, clubs, concerts and places where crowds meet. Traffic is normal and people are not wearing masks anymore. Social distancing is practiced in a few places whereas 2 weeks ago it was a lot more.
> 
> I think this is dangerous because the CV can come back. But there is a limit to how much isolation we can take. At a certain point, people will break and won't obey the law anymore because its too hard. I think we are at that point now.
> 
> Last year 8M people died of cancer. Today 85k died of the CV. I think people are no longer afraid of Covid.


From what I've observed in Ohio, there's about a 20% rate that ignore wearing masks and social distancing.
Hard to tell how much ignorance, lack of fear and politics play.
Probably all three to varying degrees.

The unintentional spread of COVID-19 is a concern, but there are growing reports of politically unmasked citizens aggressively confronting reporters, even spitting on them.
Doctors and nurses confronted by protestors.
Even death threats at medical experts.

To the north in Michigan, armed militia groups have been imposing their own presence and politics, on streets and sidewalks.... and in their state capital building ( open carry is legal there ).
While they claim a patriotic presence, I've looked at a few of their web sites and several do not seem to like the concept of a democratic society. 
This brings a worry as Trump supports a 'liberation' of states slow to open business activity.

BTW, I checked your stats.
A bit off.
https://seer.cancer.gov/statfacts/html/common.html


> In 2020, an estimated 606,520 people will die of cancer in the United States.


In addition, cancer is not considered a contagious infectious disease.
https://www.cancer.org/cancer/cancer-basics/is-cancer-contagious.html

I'm concerned that extreme rightwing politics and the lack of common sense will further damage our society.


----------



## Kapustin Yar

Johnny b said:


> To the north in Michigan, armed militia groups have been imposing their own presence and politics, on streets and sidewalks.... and in their state capital building ( open carry is legal there ).
> While they claim a patriotic presence, I've looked at a few of their web sites and several do not seem to like the concept of a democratic society.
> This brings a worry as Trump supports a 'liberation' of states slow to open business activity.


 That's really scary. In Washington State we have those people but they don't show up where I live. They're mostly in Eastern Washington State and Idaho. They're almost, if not scarier than the disease.


----------



## Johnny b

Kapustin Yar said:


> That's really scary. In Washington State we have those people but they don't show up where I live. They're mostly in Eastern Washington State and Idaho. They're almost, if not scarier than the disease.


Good luck and stay safe


----------



## Johnny b

*Florida's scientist was fired for refusing to 'manipulate' COVID-19 data*

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news...data-researcher-out-state-reopens/5218897002/



> BREVARD COUNTY, Fla. - The scientist who created Florida's COVID-19 data portal wasn't just removed from her position on May 5, she was fired on Monday by the Department of Health, she said, for refusing to manipulate data.


----------



## Johnny b

<smirk>

* Trump dismisses hydroxychloroquine study that undermines him as a "Trump enemy statement" *

https://www.vox.com/2020/5/19/21263989/trump-hydroxychloroquine-study-enemy-statement-fda



> Trump is now suggesting his own government is part of a conspiracy to demean his favorite unproven drug. Really.




The "Trump enemy statement"
https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2020.04.16.20065920v1.full.pdf



> CONCLUSIONS:
> In this study, we found no evidence that use of hydroxychloroquine, either with or without
> azithromycin, reduced the risk of mechanical ventilation in patients hospitalized with Covid-19.
> An association of increased overall mortality was identified in patients treated with
> hydroxychloroquine alone. These findings highlight the importance of awaiting the results of
> ongoing prospective, randomized, controlled studies before widespread adoption of these drugs.


Somebody must have hidden his can of Lysol and bottle of Clorox.


----------



## Johnny b

* 'We're not going to close the country' if there's a second wave, Trump says *
https://www.washingtonpost.com/nation/2020/05/22/coronavirus-update-us/



> "We're not going to close the country - we're going to put out the fires," Trump said Thursday as more than 25,000 new infections and at least 1,278 virus-related deaths were recorded across the United States.


And yet, Trump recently inferred it was patriotic to die from COVID-19.
A 'Badge of Honor'.
The greater the numbers of infections and death, the greater the honor.
The more patriotic?

*"we're going to put out the fires"*??

Like, how?

Trump only offered denial when the dying started from the first round of infection.
That obviously didn't work.

A plan.
You get to die so that his intellectual (  ) autocracy survives.

I know what you red hatted Trumpies are thinking, 'It won't be me' 
Well, jokes on you, the virus isn't a Republican.


----------



## Kapustin Yar

Johnny b said:


> * 'We're not going to close the country' if there's a second wave, Trump says *
> https://www.washingtonpost.com/nation/2020/05/22/coronavirus-update-us/
> 
> And yet, Trump recently inferred it was patriotic to die from COVID-19.
> A 'Badge of Honor'.
> The greater the numbers of infections and death, the greater the honor.
> The more patriotic?
> 
> *"we're going to put out the fires"*??
> 
> Like, how?
> 
> Trump only offered denial when the dying started from the first round of infection.
> That obviously didn't work.
> 
> A plan.
> You get to die so that his intellectual (  ) autocracy survives.
> 
> I know what you red hatted Trumpies are thinking, 'It won't be me'
> Well, jokes on you, the virus isn't a Republican.


It would be cool if it were. Then I'd say It was from God, lol


----------



## Johnny b

* 'Draconian'? 'House arrest'? Coronavirus lockdowns prompt raft of lawsuits against states *
https://www.usatoday.com/story/news...ompt-raft-lawsuits-against-states/5231533002/

*Kentucky Gov. Andy Beshear hanged in effigy as Second Amendment supporters protest coronavirus restrictions *
https://www.usatoday.com/story/news...ar-hanged-effigy-second-amendment/5254349002/

* Memorial Day weekend pool party in Ozarks draws national attention *
https://www.usatoday.com/story/news...-party-video-missouri-coronavirus/5253242002/

From fake fundamentalists to fake patriots to real hedonists, I see a similarity that is disturbing.
The nature of our society is beginning to look like a death cult that uses the Constitution against reason.

I live in Ohio. 
There are crazies here, too.


----------



## Johnny b

* Missouri health officials call for self-quarantine of partiers at Lake of the Ozarks *
https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-new...self-quarantine-partiers-lake-ozarks-n1214506

I doubt the 'suggestion' to self-quarantine will be taken seriously.
The people affected gave no consideration for the health of others to start with, why would they all of a sudden grow a conscience?

Also, how far would this self quarantine extend, realistically?
Their families?
How about every person they meet during the next few days? 
And the people that they meet?

'The meek shall inherit the Earth'.
The stupids, not so much.


----------



## Johnny b

* US FDA pulls its emergency approval of chloroquine use for COVID-19 *
https://arstechnica.com/science/202...ncy-approval-of-chloroquine-use-for-covid-19/



> The move came in response to a growing body of data indicating that the drugs had little to no impact on the progression of COVID-19 but retained all of its well-known side effects.


Sounds like a Trump inspired purge in the FDA is about to commence


----------



## Johnny b

And here we go again with misinformation, intellectual dishonesty and apparent outright deceit from the radical right.
The politicization of a pandemic.

* The morons of the pandemic *
https://www.americanthinker.com/blog/2020/06/the_morons_of_the_pandemic.html



> Thursday, the brilliant, non-scientist governor of California started requiring face masks for everyone. The brilliant former governor, also a non-scientist, chimed in and said wearing masks should not be a political issue and anyone who makes it one is a moron.


Catch that last comment?


> ...................wearing masks should not be a political issue ................


Hellner:


> I would say that anyone who doesn't have the cognitive ability to recognize that the masks have been a political issue from the start, not based on science, is a moron.


The author of the article is starting a political tirade against medical experts.
Sound familiar?
It is in alignment with the current aspirations of the terrorist movement, Boogaloo, that is reported to have an online presence at social media sites, also arguing for the public to ignore medical experts, as a tool for social upheaval .

This is not the only anti-expert article by Hellner.
A few:

* Another day, another bogus report from CDC seeking to entice the public to continue wearing masks *
https://www.americanthinker.com/blo...ice_the_public_to_continue_wearing_masks.html

* If the media told the truth about COVID-19, the public would feel safe going to work and play *
https://www.americanthinker.com/blo...c_would_feel_safe_going_to_work_and_play.html

* It is leftists who are stoking COVID-19 panic and leaving everyone depressed *
https://www.americanthinker.com/blo...d19_panic_and_leaving_everyone_depressed.html

* Fake News: In the coronavirus crisis, the press covers itself in glory *
https://www.americanthinker.com/blo..._crisis_the_press_covers_itself_in_glory.html

...................
See the pattern? 'Ignore the dangers, it's all politics.'

All Hellner's rants at American Thinker can be found here:
https://www.americanthinker.com/author/jack_hellner/

.....................

Back to his rant.

Much is simply childish logic and whining, like


> Anyone who continually repeats that millions of people with no symptoms are spreading the disease, with no scientific evidence...and that is the reason we are required to wear a mask.


Asymptomatic spread of Covid-19 is a fact. The rate of transmission is not known.
The reason to wear a mask includes that vector.
Wearing a mask also reduces transmission from those that are expressing symptoms.

This is where a major deception occurs:



> It appears the biggest spike is in California, a state that is substantially closed, not in the states that have reopened. Why don't reporters do their job and tell the truth?
> 
> The actual numbers are readily available to reporters if they want the people to see them instead of spreading talking points, but we won't see them because the public wouldn't be scared into submission.
> 
> Here are some actual numbers through June 18:


(An old saying, figures never lie but liars often figure.)

Hellner goes on to compare the deaths of California to New York.
Statistically, NY has a greater number of deaths in a 7 day period.
That is his argument, raw data.
But that's not the only significance nor the major realization.
He's busy ignoring that NY , with the greatest hot spot of COVID-19 infection in the US ( NYC), has had the greatest reduction of infections and continues that decline.
That's NY with 19 million people, most living crowded in close proximity ( NYC) practicing social distancing as best as possible and wearing masks.

And comparing it to the state of California, where the population numbers are similar but the density is obviously much less, having not experienced the initial intrusion that NY experienced , and it's populace relatively lax in concerns of Covid-19. It's daily infection statistics are now increasing.

Anyone can check out the known status of these two entities.
California currently has more than 4 times the number of new daily infections and it's increasing while NY is decreasing.
This is the tool:
https://coronavirus.jhu.edu/map.html

Hellner:


> In all these cases the states that are less restrictive have had better results from the start, including the last seven days, yet that is not the story the media is presenting. Facts clearly don't matter. They are continuing to support the continued strangulation of the economy.


This is obviously not true. 
Remember that old saying:
Figures never lie but liars often figure?

Today, it's called 'politics'.

And it can kill you. 

[edited for spelling]


----------



## Chawbacon

Johnny b said:


> * Missouri health officials call for self-quarantine of partiers at Lake of the Ozarks *
> https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-new...self-quarantine-partiers-lake-ozarks-n1214506
> 
> I doubt the 'suggestion' to self-quarantine will be taken seriously.
> The people affected gave no consideration for the health of others to start with, why would they all of a sudden grow a conscience?
> 
> Also, how far would this self quarantine extend, realistically?
> Their families?
> How about every person they meet during the next few days?
> And the people that they meet?
> 
> 'The meek shall inherit the Earth'.
> The stupids, not so much.


Just to give this context. Not saying that one side is more correct than the other. 


> https://heavy.com/news/2020/05/rebekah-jones/
> Florida Gov. Ron DeSantis disputed the allegations from Jones in a press conference.
> 
> DeSantis said: "She's not a data scientist. She's somebody that's got a degree in journalism, communication, and geography. She is not involved in collating any data, she does not have the expertise to do that, she is not an epidemiologist. She is not the chief architect of our web portal, that is another false statement… She was putting data on the portal which the scientists didn't believe was valid data. So she didn't listen to the people who were her superiors…and so she was dismissed because of that and because of a bunch of different reasons…"


----------



## Johnny b

Chawbacon said:


> Just to give this context. Not saying that one side is more correct than the other.


What does Jones have to do with Missouri?


----------



## Chawbacon

OOPS!
I have a three year old helping me edit this morning.  Correction below.



Johnny b said:


> *Florida's scientist was fired for refusing to 'manipulate' COVID-19 data*
> 
> https://www.usatoday.com/story/news...data-researcher-out-state-reopens/5218897002/


Just to give this context. Not saying that one side is more correct than the other.


> https://heavy.com/news/2020/05/rebekah-jones/
> Florida Gov. Ron DeSantis disputed the allegations from Jones in a press conference.
> 
> DeSantis said: "She's not a data scientist. She's somebody that's got a degree in journalism, communication, and geography. She is not involved in collating any data, she does not have the expertise to do that, she is not an epidemiologist. She is not the chief architect of our web portal, that is another false statement… She was putting data on the portal which the scientists didn't believe was valid data. So she didn't listen to the people who were her superiors…and so she was dismissed because of that and because of a bunch of different reasons…"


----------



## Johnny b

Chawbacon said:


> OOPS!
> I have a three year old helping me edit this morning.  Correction below.
> 
> Just to give this context. Not saying that one side is more correct than the other.


I'm surprised you didn't mention Jones' past.

Anyway, the stats are catching up with DeSantis and Florida has a problem to address.



















Looks like Jones had a point.

(edit: the large numerical statistic in the upper right of the first image is for the US, not Florida
Florida is next to it in small print)


----------



## Johnny b

BTW, that daily infection stat is 4 times the number of NewYork's










where there is a decline in infections.

General link to Johns Hopkins
https://coronavirus.jhu.edu/map.html


----------



## Johnny b

A connection between Covid deniers and climate deniers.
Many share the same type of lies, essentially that science, scientists and medical experts are frauds. 
Deniers push their politics upon upon the masses and they die from it.
This appeared in Scientific American April 15, 2020.

* Climate Science Deniers Turn to Attacking Coronavirus Models *
https://www.scientificamerican.com/...deniers-turn-to-attacking-coronavirus-models/

Remember, this was written several months ago when masks, social distancing, stay at home and quarantines were in effect.



> The group, which includes federal lawmakers, climate science deniers and conservative pundits with close White House connections, has even called for congressional hearings into the coronavirus modeling.
> 
> That's in spite of assurances from public health officials that better-than-expected U.S. death estimates for COVID-19 are because millions of Americans responded to pleas for social distancing. The most-used model now forecasts 60,000 U.S. deaths rather than 100,000 or more.


Since then, much of the general public has become lax in safety as those 
*" federal lawmakers, climate science deniers and conservative pundits with close White House connections "* have convinced many of the public there was no and no longer is there a threat.....and the infection and death rates have skyrocketed past previous highs.
The current confirmed deaths (the actual is much higher ) now at 125,000.
Confirmed infections almost 2.5 million.
Estimates for actual, range up to almost 10 times those 'confirmed' figures.

(dated May 18, 2020 )
* COVID-19: UW study reports 'staggering' death toll in US among those infected who show symptoms *
https://www.washington.edu/news/202...in-us-among-those-infected-who-show-symptoms/



> ........ with the current trends in social distancing and health care supply continuing, while accounting for those infected who will recover asymptomatically - could result in the number of deaths climbing to between 350,000 and 1.2 million.


(note: those statistics were projected before the 'opening' and the massive increase resulting from lax safety practices. It will likely only get worse)

I've mentioned BS Receptivity in the past and I suspect we all had a laugh at the flat earthers.

Well, elements of the public believe politics over science and reality, and the result is no one laughs as we engage in a time of extended dying.

BS Receptivity. From the lies of politicians to a receptive audience.
It shouldn't be this way.


----------



## Johnny b

US Confirmed daily Covid-19 infections June 26, 2020.


----------



## Johnny b

zebanovich said:


> Coronavirus seems to be spreading fast and wide and it's mutation status is still not well understood.
> https://www.euronews.com/2020/01/22...tor-general-statement-on-coronavirus-outbreak
> 
> Are you afraid?
> Do you think this is just the beginning of potentially more hazardous outbreak?
> 
> To me it sounds like a return to dark ages.


At first, I thought of Covid-19 with great concern, but now, 5 months later......I'm more than just concerned.
I am seeing elements of incomprehensible ignorance and stupidity that would be of a 'dark ages' mentality.

It's more than just the desire to be socially active.
It's also the objection to wearing masks.
I've been reading of the deniers and their supposed constitutional right to not wear a mask, so I went to YouTube for examples.
At the height of a Covid-19 relapse, I read of Trader Joe's having a confrontation in California, 
https://www.usatoday.com/story/mone...t-trader-joes-viral-twitter-video/3271625001/
so I searched for it on YouTube and found not just that incident, but many more.






(If you watch that incident at Trader Joe's. notice that the woman in question has no breathing problems as she yelled out)

Their language is often incredibly obscene.
Just start with the search terms 'Trader Joes + masks' and even 'Howard Stern + face masks'.

Even with a vaccine, this isn't going to end well. 
Anti-vaxxers will be the next obstacle.


----------



## Wino

I'm calling BS on this lady (and I use the term 'lady' with reservations - she's what's known as a "Karen"). I suffer from emphysema/COPD, allergies, and bad attitude - the first two or three cause shortness of breath - the bad attitude is reserved for non-mask wearers and anti-vaxers. I wear several different mask, from superficial cloth covering to 5 ply inserts to N95 whenever in the madding crowd - non of the mask restrict my ability to breath, although they do cause fog up my glasses. No way could I go on a rant like she did without running out of breath about 5-6 steps or three words into her raving BS.

I've never been in a Trader Joe's - not into over priced "organic" produce and generally cannot afford much of their ridiculous pricing I've read so much about. Regardless, someone needs to run over this obnoxious wench with a full shopping cart.


----------



## Cookiegal

Wino said:


> she's what's known as a "Karen")


😭 I'd call her something else but then I'd have to ban myself.


----------



## Wino

Cookiegal said:


> 😭 I'd call her something else but then I'd have to ban myself.


You do realize that was NOT directed at you (I have a daughter named Karen) - but the latest definition of a "Karen" running rampant on the WEB.


----------



## Johnny b

It would be interesting to know that woman's political position and what extremist group/s she might associate with.


----------



## zebanovich

Johnny b said:


> It would be interesting to know that woman's political position and what extremist group/s she might associate with.


I bet for 50$ she's Jehovah's witness lmao


----------



## Cookiegal

Wino said:


> You do realize that was NOT directed at you


Yes, of course I do. Those were crocodile tears. 


Wino said:


> I have a daughter named Karen


Good choice!


----------



## Wino

Johnny b said:


> It would be interesting to know that woman's political position and what extremist group/s she might associate with.


Info I got and no way know if true or not as didn't follow link, but she is an anti-vaxer, too per a post on another forum. I suspect she is a Turnip worshiper.


----------



## Johnny b

Another example with a followup.











The short of it....this 'Karen' lied and was experiencing a health problem at the time of her rant at Trader Joe's.

edit: here is her political affiliation.....
https://www.mediaite.com/news/trump...to-wear-mask-at-trader-joes-now-has-symptoms/



> On her Facebook page, Peters describes herself as a "Rabid Lover of America, Freedom, the Constitution and the GREATEST PRESIDENT *Donald J. Trump*!"


Well.....that explains a lot


----------



## Johnny b

zebanovich said:


> I bet for 50$ she's Jehovah's witness lmao


The JW's I've met usually disavow any connection or support of politics and politicians.

https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-ta...look-at-jehovahs-witnesses-living-in-the-u-s/



> The denomination teaches that its members should remain politically neutral and abstain from voting or participating in "any action to change governments."


And no, I'm not a JW.


----------



## zebanovich

Johnny b said:


> The JW's I've met usually disavow any connection or support of politics and politicians.


If you're trying to get my 50 bucks, it's not going to happen 🙂


----------



## Johnny b

zebanovich said:


> If you're trying to get my 50 bucks, it's not going to happen 🙂


No problem 
But you lost it anyway


----------



## steppenwolf

https://sputniknews.com/us/20200629...usk-doubts-accuracy-of-covid-19-test-results/ musk is a doubter


----------



## Johnny b

steppenwolf said:


> https://sputniknews.com/us/20200629...usk-doubts-accuracy-of-covid-19-test-results/ musk is a doubter


He's one of many.
And then so are you.
So what?

He builds crappy cars 
The worst in the US, lol!

https://arstechnica.com/cars/2020/06/teslas-are-the-most-unreliable-new-cars-in-the-us-survey-finds/

Why should I care what the guy that builds the worst cars in the US thinks on matters and science he has no professional knowledge of?

Or you


----------



## Johnny b

An interesting article addressing the fake claims that Covid-19 was man made.
(Caution, science and scientific terms are frequently used  )

*Genomic Study Points to Natural Origin of COVID-19 *
https://directorsblog.nih.gov/2020/03/26/genomic-research-points-to-natural-origin-of-covid-19/

Source for the article:

* The proximal origin of SARS-CoV-2 *
https://www.nature.com/articles/s41591-020-0820-9


----------



## Brigham

Johnny b said:


> An interesting article addressing the fake claims that Covid-19 was man made.
> (Caution, science and scientific terms are frequently used  )
> 
> *Genomic Study Points to Natural Origin of COVID-19 *
> https://directorsblog.nih.gov/2020/03/26/genomic-research-points-to-natural-origin-of-covid-19/
> 
> Source for the article:
> 
> * The proximal origin of SARS-CoV-2 *
> https://www.nature.com/articles/s41591-020-0820-9


I've noticed that you are an expert in everything.


----------



## Johnny b

Brigham said:


> I've noticed that you are an expert in everything.


I've noticed you complain I know things


----------



## steppenwolf

https://banned.video/watch?id=5efab695672706002f367a0a

video looks real contesting numbers


----------



## Johnny b

steppenwolf said:


> https://banned.video/watch?id=5efab695672706002f367a0a
> 
> video looks real contesting numbers


LOL!

Alex Jones again.

edit:
I like the caption on his web page lol!



> Our nutrient-dense formula, Vasobeet, is now back in stock at 50% off with double Patriot Points and free shipping!


----------



## steppenwolf

strats out with a clip from a city council though


----------



## Johnny b

And this one:


steppenwolf said:


> strats out with a clip from a city council though


So?
Listen to the audio at the beginning.
It starts out ....the State of Texas has revised........
There was no mention of a 'Federal Order' at that point and I have no intention of watching any further lol.

Title of the video:



> Breaking: States Ordered To Fraudulently Inflate COVID-19 Cases 15 Times Actual Rate


The actual rate is at this time unknown.
Texas has gone from the verbiage of 'confirmed' to 'probable'.
The actual rate of infection at this time is estimated at 6 to as much as 24 times the 'confirmed' rate.
I posted to that recently.

You're simply posting another Alex Jones BS image of a pandemic.


----------



## Johnny b

https://coronavirus.jhu.edu/map.html
Confirmed data.

Texas:


----------



## Johnny b

steppenwolf.

Look closely at that enlarged graph.
If in fact that data had been multiplied by 15, it wouldn't explain why the results keep increasing.
Alex Jones' argument would result first in an increase that flattens out.
The graph obviously isn't flattening out!

If there was anything credible to Jones' claims, all states would reflect the same qualities I described. They don't.
Simply go to that Johns Hopkins map and check it out.

Your arguments are BS 

edit:
How do you explain this: New York:


----------



## steppenwolf

because theyre doing more testing

you johnny are so good at stats ,whats the recovery rate for this so called virus?


----------



## Johnny b

steppenwolf said:


> because theyre doing more testing


I think you are confused 

That argument wouldn't apply to New York. lol

That's just a bogus argument for states that have a radical increase in confirmed cases and even that concept is challenged by what is called 'positivity rates'.
The ratio of infection to testing numbers.

*Texas' coronavirus positivity rate exceeds "warning flag" level Abbott set as businesses reopened*
https://www.texastribune.org/2020/06/24/texas-coronavirus-infection-rate/



> In early May, Gov. Greg Abbott pointed to the positivity rate - a ratio of positive COVID-19 tests to all tests - and said anything over 10% was cause for alarm. As of Wednesday, Texas exceeded that mark for the first time since April.


*How Much Of The Disease Are We Finding Through Tests?*
https://coronavirus.jhu.edu/testing/individual-states


> The rate of positivity is an important indicator because it can provide insights into whether a community is conducting enough testing to find cases. If a community's positivity is high, it suggests that that community may largely be testing the sickest patients and possibly missing milder or asymptomatic cases. A lower positivity may indicate that a community is including in its testing patients with milder or no symptoms.


----------



## Johnny b

steppenwolf said:


> because theyre doing more testing


sw, you appear to be living in a corner of youtube that is populated with Alex Jones clones


----------



## steppenwolf

YOU didnt answer by query and i doubt you will


----------



## Johnny b

steppenwolf said:


> because theyre doing more testing
> 
> you johnny are so good at stats ,whats the recovery rate for this so called virus?


The numbers are listed on that JH Map you obviously haven't bothered to check out


----------



## steppenwolf

but what are the chances of dying from covid?in usa 360 million people -id guess its .000001 %

Tokyo had 700 deaths or less


----------



## Johnny b

steppenwolf said:


> but what are the chances of dying from covid?in usa 360 million people -id guess its .000001 %
> 
> Tokyo had 700 deaths or less


Hanging around people like you.....pretty damn high.

Taking the common sense precautions that are suggested, like wearing a mask, social distancing, pretty low.

You seem to have little concern for the lives and health of others.

Did Youtube infect you?


----------



## Johnny b

steppenwolf said:


> but what are the chances of dying from covid?in usa 360 million people -id guess its .000001 %
> 
> Tokyo had 700 deaths or less


From JH Map
Japan:










Texas










Well 
That would be a good argument that it's safer living in Japan.


----------



## Johnny b

Another interesting comparison.

The population of Japan is 126 million

The population of Texas is 29 million.

Japan has 4.3 times the population of Texas.

According to Johns Hopkins:
Texas has 156,706 confirmed cases of covid-19
Japan has 18,615 confirmed cases of covid-19

WOW!
Japan has a population 430% bigger than Texas with only 11.8 % as many confirmed infections. 

It really is much more dangerous living in Texas.
Thanks for the example, steppenwolf.


----------



## steppenwolf

i wear a mask in consideration for crazy paranoid citizens in stores etc


----------



## Johnny b

Good for you.


----------



## Johnny b

steppenwolf said:


> but what are the chances of dying from covid?in usa 360 million people -id guess its .000001 %
> 
> Tokyo had 700 deaths or less


As shown, that argument and claim is bogus.

What is conveniently forgotten is the health status of the survivors.
For some, it's misery. I addressed the concept earlier in the other Covid thread in Random, but it appears relevant again.

This article was posted when the number of deaths had just passed 100K but is still a concern.

Originally Published 10:09 a.m. EDT May 29, 2020
Updated 1:39 p.m. EDT June 19, 2020

* Memory loss, gnarled fingers, panic attacks: COVID-19 didn't kill these Americans, but many might never be the same *
https://www.usatoday.com/in-depth/n...ongoing-symptoms-might-never-same/5215914002/



> Many of the 1.7 million Americans who've contracted coronavirus deal with lingering symptoms and a life unrecognizable from the one they had before.


What follows is a chronicle of some that survived but didn't fare well.

So......there is more to the hazards of being infected than death.
I've noticed deniers steer clear of this aspect of Covid-19 infection.


----------



## valis

Brigham said:


> I've noticed that you are an expert in everything.


nope he is VERY far from an expert on anything that doesnt provide torque and horsepower.

That said, he is opinionated and frequently voices it. Its up to you to defend your position.

As an aside, in a formal debate (which obviously this is not, this is just a friendly discussion) your statement falls under 'non sequiter'

thanks,

v


----------



## valis

two corrections;

*sequitUr

and EXTREMELY opinionated


----------



## Johnny b

valis said:


> two corrections;
> 
> *sequitUr
> 
> and EXTREMELY opinionated


Agreed


----------



## valis

valis said:


> nope he is VERY far from an expert on anything that doesnt provide torque and horsepower.
> 
> That said, he is opinionated and frequently voices it. Its up to you to defend your position.
> 
> As an aside, in a formal debate (which obviously this is not, this is just a friendly discussion) your statement falls under 'non sequiter'
> 
> thanks,
> 
> v


Just to clarify; this comment was not meant to denigrade Johhny; I respect his intellect immensely so I retract the 'not an expert on anything' comment.

He is still very opinionated though...

Apologies for that comment Johnny as it was out of character.

thanks all and stay safe!


----------



## Johnny b

valis said:


> Just to clarify; this comment was not meant to denigrade Johhny; I respect his intellect immensely so I retract the 'not an expert on anything' comment.
> 
> He is still very opinionated though...
> 
> Apologies for that comment Johnny as it was out of character.
> 
> ...............................


No need lol!

I am opinionated.
And I'm not an expert.
Just lucky with a search engine


----------



## Cookiegal

But he is an expert opinionator.


----------



## Johnny b

Well, there is that


----------



## Johnny b

A lack of common sense.

* Texas lieutenant governor says he's done listening to Dr. Fauci: 'I don't need his advice' *
https://www.usatoday.com/story/news...k-done-listening-dr-anthony-fauci/5358519002/



> AUSTIN, Texas - Texas Lt. Gov. Dan Patrick said he will no longer listen to Dr. Anthony Fauci, one of the nation's top infectious disease experts, as coronavirus cases and hospitalizations surge in Texas.
> 
> "Fauci said today that he's concerned about states like Texas that skipped over certain things," Patrick told Fox News' Laura Ingraham on Tuesday. "He doesn't know what he's talking about. We haven't skipped over anything. The only thing I'm skipping over is listening to him."


He sounds pretty irresponsible to me.


----------



## Wino

Johnny b said:


> A lack of common sense.
> 
> * Texas lieutenant governor says he's done listening to Dr. Fauci: 'I don't need his advice' *
> https://www.usatoday.com/story/news...k-done-listening-dr-anthony-fauci/5358519002/
> 
> He sounds pretty irresponsible to me.


He is, along with his cohorts Gov. Abbott and AG Paxton - all right wing Trump loving imbeciles. Their management of CV-19 has been abysmal and they are currently stumbling all over themselves trying to put toothpaste back in the tube.


----------



## Johnny b

* COVID-19 deaths in the U.S. may be 28% higher than official count, study estimates *
https://news.yahoo.com/covid-19-deaths-u-may-183145715.html

* Yale: U.S. Coronavirus Deaths Likely Much Higher Than Reported *
https://news.yahoo.com/yale-u-coronavirus-deaths-likely-211800742.html

*COVID-19 has derailed health care for many Americans, causing countless deaths *
https://news.yahoo.com/covid-19-derailed-health-care-071506543.html

* Coronavirus updates: 'COVID parties' in Alabama; US daily cases top 50,000 for first time; Trump hopes pandemic will 'disappear' *
https://news.yahoo.com/coronavirus-updates-us-daily-cases-103359185.html

* Trump hopes pandemic will 'disappear' *


> President Donald Trump, discussing the pandemic during a Fox Business interview, said he thinks "at some point, that's going to sort of just disappear, I hope."


Yeah buddy. There's an election on the rise.
Better be damn soon..........


----------



## Johnny b

* The White House repeatedly denied the CDC permission to brief the public on the coronavirus, report says*

https://www.businessinsider.com/cdc-denied-permission-to-brief-public-about-coronavirus-yahoo-2020-7



> The Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC) was denied permission by the White House to brief the public about the coronavirus crisis, a source at the agency told Yahoo News.
> 
> (yada yada yada and then)
> 
> The CDC and its director, Robert Redfield, have been criticised for missteps in the early days of the crisis, including the botched rollout of a testing system, and bureaucratic delays.
> 
> Amid a surge in new cases, the Trump administration is considering scapegoating the agency for the US' faltering response to the crisis, administration sources told Politico in June.


It's never, ever Donald's fault


----------



## Johnny b

This is the first time I've seen mention of 'apocalyptic levels' of the Covid-19 viral infection and it relates to Republican-run states:

* Rocketing Covid-19 infections expose Trump's callous claim pandemic is 'handled' *
https://www.cnn.com/2020/07/03/politics/donald-trump-coronavirus-texas-arizona-florida/index.html



> (CNN)This is what President Donald Trump's "handled" pandemic looks like.
> 
> The United States, the world leader in Covid-19 infections and deaths, is reeling from an out-of-control resurgence of the virus that is racking up record numbers of 50,000-plus new infections each day now.
> Texas, Florida and Arizona -- Republican-run states that most aggressively embraced Trump's impatient demands to get the economy open again -- are heading into what one expert warned is a viral threat that is approaching "apocalyptic" levels.


----------



## storage_man

Glad we are first at something. But when you count the number of COVID-19 cases and include people who have had it months ago and didn't know they had it, the reality of the number produced and spread to the General public a FALSE. Tell me how that is right ????


----------



## Johnny b

storage_man said:


> Glad we are first at something. But when you count the number of COVID-19 cases and include people who have had it months ago and didn't know they had it, the reality of the number produced and spread to the General public a FALSE. Tell me how that is right ????


You are ignoring the daily count that is currently increasing.


----------



## storage_man

That's what I'm stating, its a bogus NUMBER ! because of the way they are counting


----------



## Johnny b

storage_man said:


> That's what I'm stating, its a bogus NUMBER ! because of the way they are counting


You are simply in denial.
Your Arizona governor seems to be in a panic .


----------



## Johnny b

* How Arizona 'lost control of the epidemic' *
https://www.washingtonpost.com/heal...92a5a8-b658-11ea-aca5-ebb63d27e1ff_story.html

BTW, if the count protocols were the issue, the curve on the graph for daily cases







would suddenly rise to a new plateau and remain there according to your logic.

It doesn't. The daily count is increasing.


----------



## storage_man

Just another B.S. article published by the Deep State contributors !!!


----------



## Johnny b

storage_man said:


> Just another B.S. article published by the Deep State contributors !!!




Thank you 

Reality is a......( you know  )


----------



## Johnny b

Have they closed your borders yet?


----------



## storage_man

They need should of done it in the "1990's". Sad that they didn't because all of PREZ since then wanted more illegals to support the cheap labor effort that has been going on since 1945. But that is not the point, the big problem is how they count current cases vs REAL Current cases of COVID-19. I'm not in any sort of Denial, I'm a realist that wants the MEDIA to report what really is going on. If I didn't know better, I would have to blame the entire COVID-19 event on the DNC. They are devious enough to HATE AMERICA and bring total SOCIALISM to this country. You would probably like that ! you would get a salary until you DIE, but most real American's say "OVER MY DEAD BODY". That is coming next. 

Be careful what you say - We Real Americans are not going away !

Trump 2020 !

He will win again and you will be crying in your sleep !


----------



## Johnny b

storage_man said:


> They need should of done it in the "1990's". Sad that they didn't because all of PREZ since then wanted more illegals to support the cheap labor effort that has been going on since 1945. But that is not the point, the big problem is how they count current cases vs REAL Current cases of COVID-19. I'm not in any sort of Denial, I'm a realist that wants the MEDIA to report what really is going on. If I didn't know better, I would have to blame the entire COVID-19 event on the DNC. They are devious enough to HATE AMERICA and bring total SOCIALISM to this country. You would probably like that ! you would get a salary until you DIE, but most real American's say "OVER MY DEAD BODY". That is coming next.
> 
> Be careful what you say - We Real Americans are not going away !
> 
> Trump 2020 !
> 
> He will win again and you will be crying in your sleep !


Have you been out in the Sun too long with out a hat again?


----------



## Johnny b

storage_man said:


> ..................
> 
> You would probably like that ! you would get a salary until you DIE, but most real American's say "OVER MY DEAD BODY". That is coming next.
> 
> Be careful what you say - We Real Americans are not going away !
> .....


Are you Boogaloo?


----------



## Johnny b

storage_man said:


> .........
> 
> Be careful what you say - We Real Americans are not going away !
> 
> ......


Well, what ever you are, if you aren't taking steps to be safe from Covid-19 in Arizona, you might be going away sooner than you think.
Not everyone dies and not everyone survives.

Do you want to be a 'winner'? Or just a 'whiner'?


----------



## storage_man

So who do you think is buying so many weapons every month (another record was set for JUNE 2020 @ 4.9 million background checks) ? Note each check means at least (1) gun ! Its been going on since APRIL. 

SO who do you think are buying all of these weapons ?


----------



## Johnny b

storage_man said:


> So who do you think is buying so many weapons every month (another record was set for JUNE 2020 @ 4.9 million background checks) ? Note each check means at least (1) gun ! Its been going on since APRIL.
> 
> SO who do you think are buying all of these weapons ?


People buying weapons to protect themselves?
That's why I bought mine.

Why do you buy weapons?


----------



## storage_man

I haven't bought any ??????


----------



## Johnny b

storage_man said:


> I haven't bought any ??????


Is that a statement or ?????


----------



## storage_man

Johnny b said:


> Is that a statement or ?????


Just a Fact !


----------



## Johnny b

storage_man said:


> Just a Fact !


Am I supposed to wonder why you posted about gun sales and then claim you don't enjoin in your Constitutional Rights to bear arms?

Well, I will say this, you can't kill a coronavirus with a .45 or a .223.

( I don't even know why that might be important  )

edit:
But it sounds a lot more dangerous than imbibing Clorox LOL!


----------



## storage_man

Johnny b said:


> Am I supposed to wonder why you posted about gun sales and then claim you don't enjoin in your Constitutional Rights to bear arms?
> 
> Well, I will say this, you can't kill a coronavirus with a .45 or a .223.
> 
> ( I don't even know why that might be important  )
> 
> edit:
> But it sounds a lot more dangerous than imbibing Clorox LOL!


The reason I asked was because you seem to be an individual has much better "GOOGLE FU" than me. I guess you never inquired into why (other than beyond personal protections and why the spike in weapon sales have been going on for over 3 months ?). That is a long time and I would think that you would know ??


----------



## Johnny b

storage_man said:


> The reason I asked was because you seem to be an individual has much better "GOOGLE FU" than me. I guess you never inquired into why (other than beyond personal protections and why the spike in weapon sales have been going on for over 3 months ?). That is a long time and I would think that you would know ??


Looks to me you are avoiding my question.

Am I supposed to wonder why you posted about gun sales and then claim you don't enjoin in your Constitutional Right to bear arms?
And how does that relate to the Covid-19 pandemic?

You seem to image yourself as a 'real' American and yet you don't seem to give much consideration for self defense in a society that's in turmoil, or your health.

(It makes you look weak, all hot air  )

IMO, you whine too much 
It kinda defeats the imagery of being a rugged independent American.

Covid-19 is a serious threat to all, and yet masks and social distancing goes a long way in surviving that threat.
Denial.....well, in the final analysis, that's just a statistic of failure.


----------



## Wino

Liberals are buying guns at an incredible rate - scary thought, no??


----------



## Johnny b

A thought....I wonder which group buys the most weapons illegally? ...


----------



## Johnny b

I just took a look at the Johns Hopkins Covid Map web site.
Looks like the death count will probably pass 130,000 tomorrow.

A nation that used to be able to defend itself against major pandemics, brought to it's knees by leadership in denial and stupidity.
MAGA......what an insult.


----------



## Johnny b

Since storage man has brought up issues with data collection, let's compare data between where he lives, Arizona, and initially one of the worst hot spots in the US, New York State.

This morning, from the Johns Hopkins site:

Arizona daily cases as of July 3










Of NY State July 3










As seen, Arizona had about 4400 cases.
New York State about 918 cases.

Arizona has a population of 7.3 million
New York State 19.4 million.

New York has a 260% larger population but only 20% as many infections as in Arizona on July 3.

Astounding.
It is incredibly more dangerous to be living in Arizona and it apparently doesn't make a difference in Covid stats if you are doing concealed carry/open carry or not.
And it should be pointed out that New York State has stricter gun carry laws than Arizona.
Apparently, in Arizona, no permit is even needed for concealed carry for persons 21 years of age and older.

No wonder storage man seems nervous and irritable.

Be well and stay safe over the holiday, storage man.
You don't need a weapon, just stay away from the loons


----------



## Johnny b

* White House looks to make 'we need to live with it' the new tone on coronavirus: report *
https://thehill.com/homenews/admini...-make-we-need-to-live-with-it-the-new-tone-on

OK America.....you've just been told to go off and die quietly so the financial backers of Trump can partake in a better economy.

What say you Trumpies. You first?


----------



## Johnny b

There is something deeply wrong with politicians that argue to spread disease and death.

* 'Government needed a villain': Louisiana lawmaker equates coronavirus mask mandates to Holocaust *
https://www.usatoday.com/story/news...-lawmaker-mask-mandates-holocaust/5396088002/



> A Louisiana lawmaker said people who refuse to wear masks during the coronavirus pandemic are being treated like Jews in Nazi Germany during the Holocaust.





> "People who don't wear masks will be soon painted as the enemy just as they did to Jews in Nazi Germany. Now is the time to push back before it's too late. We can preserve America."
> 
> In the video, McCormick said mask mandates could be a precursor to government requiring people to "take the mark."
> 
> If the government has the power to force you to wear a mask, they can force you to stick a needle in your arm against your will.


Most likely just another anti-vaxxer loon backing the fascist Trump administration.

An anti-vaxxer:
https://www.adn.com/nation-world/20...oronavirus-to-push-resistance-to-inoculation/


> "Government overreach has destroyed the greatest economy in the history of the world in a matter of weeks," said McCormick, who is pushing a bill that would require schools to inform parents of their right to opt out of vaccines.


Backs Trump:
https://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2020/jun/25/republicans-resume-bid-to-override-virus-state-of-/


> Rep. Danny McCormick, a Republican from Oil City, urged his colleagues to support the petition circulated by Shreveport GOP Rep. Alan Seabaugh. The measure requires support from a majority of the House or Senate to revoke the state of emergency.


He's even claims he's 'Pro-Life'
https://mccormick4la.com/about-1

Looking more like a leader of a death cult, imo.


----------



## Couriant

Reminded me of George Carlin:


George Carlin said:


> They're all in favor of the unborn. They will do anything for the unborn. But once you're born, you're on your own. Pro-life conservatives are obsessed with the fetus from conception to nine months. After that, they don't want to know about you. They don't want to hear from you. No nothing. No neonatal care, no day care, no head start, no school lunch, no food stamps, no welfare, no nothing. If you're pre-born, you're fine; if you're *preschool, you're screwed*.


 This is more relevant as the moms in a private school my son goes to wants their kids back in... Didn't Trump say the same thing?

It seems that these anti-maskers don't see is the bigger picture and the ripple effect for their actions. And I am speaking from a personal experience. I have been battling insurance for about *5 years* to provide coverage for the Inspire surgery that will help with my sleep apnea... finally I got approval and was going to have the surgery next week... but because of these mask-holes it got postponed because of the rising cases of COVID... and no time when it will I get it again....


----------



## Johnny b

My sympathies, James.

These Covid fools and deniers are only making a bad situation worse. Much worse.


----------



## zebanovich

Johnny b said:


> These Covid fools and deniers


Guys be careful, the biggest threat is not COVID, but fools who contribute the spread:
1. going to cafe
2. buying food every day
3. those saying "It won't happen to me"

you name the rest...


----------



## Johnny b

There's a lot to that.

edit: politics, also.


----------



## zebanovich

Johnny b said:


> edit: politics, also.


Politicians or more precisely those who benefit from international trade and fill their pockets, you surely won't see those going to store and walking around 

How could you or me be more important than billions of dollars?


----------



## Johnny b

* Arizona has the nation's highest positive test rate for COVID-19. Here's what it means. *
https://www.usatoday.com/story/news...e-test-rate-highest-us-what-means/5398213002/



> A high percentage of positive tests means that testing is limited and may only be reaching those who are the most sick, and that the virus is widespread and impacting wide swaths of people.
> 
> Arizona has the highest percentage among all states of positive tests, according to data from Johns Hopkins, with an average of 25.3% of tests coming back positive as of Tuesday.
> 
> Arizona's rising percentage of positive cases comes as the state's residents have experienced long waits to get tested and and are frustrated by how long it takes to get the results from those tests.


Common sense....wear a mask and observe social distancing.


----------



## Couriant

FL Man gets fired for outburst


----------



## Couriant

had to put this here lol pretty much sums up Donald's America:


----------



## Johnny b

I liked this from your NY Post link:



> Attempts to reach Maples early Wednesday were unsuccessful.


And probably will be for a while lol


----------



## Couriant

Johnny b said:


> I liked this from your NY Post link:
> 
> And probably will be for a while lol


Usually dumbasses like that tend to stay off the grid.

Say, does this mean Trump created a job?!?!?
.


----------



## Johnny b

Because this has a political angle, it goes here rather than in the Random Covid thread:

There may not be enough money allotted for a proper election this fall.
So far, there isn't.

* As Trump and Biden battle, election officials are running out of time, money for November *
https://www.usatoday.com/story/news...time-money-november-2020-election/5417577002/

Way too much of importance there to copy and paste.


----------



## 2twenty2

White House reportedly orders hospitals to bypass CDC during COVID-19 data collection

https://www.theverge.com/2020/7/14/...onavirus-data-collection-cdc-bypass-trump-hhs



> The Silicon Valley company is known most for its controversial contract work with the US military and other clandestine government agencies as well as for being co-founded and initially funded by Trump ally Peter Thiel.


----------



## Johnny b

Not unexpected, all things considered.
When facts don't support policy, change the facts.

Alternate facts, as a minion ( Kellyanne Conway ) of Trump's Nationalist ( read fascist ) entourage once positioned.


----------



## Wino

November can't get here quick enough as we sink lower and lower into the cesspool of Trumpism.


----------



## 2twenty2

Russian hackers target COVID-19 vaccine research with custom malware

https://www.bleepingcomputer.com/ne...ovid-19-vaccine-research-with-custom-malware/


----------



## Johnny b

From this link, it appears Johns Hopkins has started getting data from the states.
It will be interesting to compare their results with the White House versions.

https://www.cnbc.com/2020/07/16/us-...stration-shifted-control-from-cdc-to-hhs.html



> Dr. Jennifer Nuzzo, an epidemiologist at Johns Hopkins University, which runs one of the most popular third-party coronavirus data dashboards, said the policy change won't impact the Hopkins site because they've managed to source their data directly from states. She added, however, that the policy change raises questions about the transparency of the data and the role of the CDC in the ongoing U.S. response.


----------



## Johnny b

Insanity is 'alive and well' in Ohio.

https://www.daytondailynews.com/new...lic-health-orders/5EUQDQSVIBAAHK6EWALSQ5LXKI/

The Ohio Senate, has been pushing a bill to negate the power of the governor, state health director and local agencies from making emergency plans during a pandemic.
They link it to gun control.

Governor Dewine, a Republican, vetoed Senate Bill 55, but it looks like there will be an attempt to overturn it by the Ohio GOP.


----------



## Johnny b

steppenwolf said:


> https://banned.video/watch?id=5efab695672706002f367a0a
> 
> video looks real contesting numbers


The title of that video:
* Breaking: States Ordered To Fraudulently Inflate COVID-19 Cases 15 Times Actual Rate *

'Looks real' and 'actually real' are two different concepts, steppenwolf.

It turns out that Texas has started fudging the numbers, not to inflate the statistics, but to reduce the infection count.

* Texas Erases COVID Cases-and Fans Conspiracy Theory Flames *
https://www.thedailybeast.com/texas-erases-covid-cases-and-fans-conspiracy-theory-flames



> When health officials quietly removed nearly 3,500 COVID-19 cases from the official Texas total on Wednesday, it launched a deluge of conspiracy theories about inflated and unreliable data in the midst of a surging pandemic.
> 
> "The case data on our website reflect confirmed cases, and cases identified by antigen testing are considered probable cases under the national case definition," said Chris Van Deusen, a spokesman for the Texas Department of State Health Services.
> 
> Under that definition, the CDC only considers cases "confirmed" if they are diagnosed using a molecular, often called PCR, test. Cases that are detected using antigen tests are classified as "probable." If someone is diagnosed with an antigen test, Texas will not count their case among the state total.


Old definitions:
https://wwwn.cdc.gov/nndss/conditions/coronavirus-disease-2019-covid-19/case-definition/2020/
That CDC article was released April 5, 2020.
And note this:


> *Serologic methods for diagnosis are currently being defined.


Much more is known today and testing improved.

Texas is intentionally under-counting infections at a time when their hospitals are increasingly over crowded and the Covid-19 death count accelerates.

DSHS COVID-19 Dashboard.
https://txdshs.maps.arcgis.com/apps/opsdashboard/index.html#/ed483ecd702b4298ab01e8b9cafc8b83










Watching Alex Jones, denying reality and embracing conspiracy theories .........solves nothing.


----------



## 2twenty2

'Superspreading' events, triggered by people who may be asymptomatic, propel virus pandemic

https://www.stripes.com/news/us/sup...e-asymptomatic-propel-virus-pandemic-1.638034


----------



## Johnny b

Interesting article.

Thanks for linking to it.


----------



## Johnny b

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news...portion-gop-convention-cdc-school/5495991002/

*24 million Americans fear missing next rent payment *



> Days from the end of enhanced unemployment benefits and a federal eviction moratorium, 24 million Americans say they have little to no chance of being able to pay next month's rent, a U.S. Census Bureau survey shows.


Add to that problem:
Because of the lack of common sense, political rejection of safety protocols, Covid-19 infections are rampant at all time highs and experts are again recommending a shut down of the US.
https://www.cnn.com/2020/07/23/health/shutdown-us-contain-coronavirus-wellness/index.html

* Poll: 3 in 4 Americans want mask wearing required *
https://www.usatoday.com/story/news...portion-gop-convention-cdc-school/5495991002/

What is wrong with a society under the siege of a pandemic, where 1/4 of it rejects common sense needed for survival???

Make America Great Again?

Reality check. Under Trump, the GOP has become a death cult of Tea Partiers, Libertarians, leftover neo-cons and of course....the Trumpite red hat faction.

And to make matters even worse, hardly possible you think ( ? ), Trump has even threatened to bring in what is essentially a private army, to push back protesters against racism.

This is not making America great. This is granting third world status to the US.


----------



## Johnny b

Opinion piece by Tom Nichols
( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tom_Nichols_(academic) )

*As America tops 4 million COVID cases, the cult of Donald Trump has become a death cult *
https://www.usatoday.com/story/opin...-trump-base-reject-experts-column/5500345002/


----------



## Johnny b

* A second Great Depression? Unemployment crisis hits big cities hard *
https://www.cnbc.com/2020/07/21/som...ing-great-depression-unemployment-levels.html



> Great Depression levels of unemployment have hit some of the country's biggest cities.
> 
> The coronavirus pandemic has pushed the jobless rate in New York, Los Angeles and other major urban areas to near or above 20%, nearly twice the national rate.


----------



## Johnny b

* Trump's national security adviser tests positive for Covid-19 *

https://www.cnn.com/2020/07/27/politics/robert-obrien-tests-positive-covid/index.html


----------



## steppenwolf

silly posts nonsense


----------



## 2twenty2

Taller people face higher risk of catching COVID-19, survey says

https://nypost.com/2020/07/28/people-over-6-feet-tall-are-more-likely-to-contract-coronavirus/


----------



## Johnny b

steppenwolf said:


> silly posts nonsense


Yours do tend in that direction.

Are you in agreement with Trump's latest expert?

* Trump's New Favorite COVID Doctor Believes in Alien DNA, Demon Sperm, and Hydroxychloroquine *
https://www.thedailybeast.com/stell...-alien-dna-demon-sperm-and-hydroxychloroquine


----------



## Wino

Seems Tulsa OK rally is a gift that keeps on giving.

RIP Herman Cain. Was it worth it!!


----------



## Johnny b

Alzheimers, stupidity or just plain lying?



> In an extraordinary clip from Axios' Jonathan Swan's interview with Donald Trump, the president rifled through a sheaf of graphs to claim that the US has lower numbers of coronavirus than other nations. The pair debated Trump's point that America has a lower number of deaths as a percentage of coronavirus cases, but when Swain pointed instead to the number of US Covid-19 deaths as a population percentage, Trump said: 'You can't do that'







Just to add......with the above Trumptonian logic, the greater the number of tests, the smaller the percentage of deaths per case. 
The number of deaths divided by number of cases, the number of cases being a variable.

But Trump also claims we need fewer tests in order to reduce the number of cases.
(which would drive his death count per case percentage----> up )

( Bone spurs in his noggin? )

Figures never lie,
but liars often figure.


----------



## Wino

I'm voting all three, and he never had bone spurs.


----------



## Johnny b

It's '1984' and Trumpies make the headlines.

* Trump and Birx praise Arizona as new national model for battling coronavirus pandemic *
https://www.usatoday.com/story/news...ised-white-house-trump-birx-ducey/3306017001/

The 'success' of Arizona controlling the Covid-19 while opening up it's economy is obvious in Arizona's daily infection count. Open the economy and then start shutting it back down with suggestions of masks and social distancing, as infections and deaths increase.

From Johns Hopkins
Arizona:










From the USAToday link:


> Throughout the governor's Wednesday visit to Washington, D.C., senior officials held up Arizona as a leader in COVID-19 containment measures, with President Donald Trump saying Ducey had "done an incredible job" controlling the virus.


The 'newspeak'



> "You've done a fantastic job. We're very proud of you. We love the people of Arizona, and they are very proud of the job you've done also, Doug," Trump said.
> 
> Dr. Deborah Birx, U.S. coronavirus task force coordinator, also said Ducey "did a great job putting these pieces together and really creating that path forward."


Translation:
* You really screwed up and had to backpedal, but we're here to save your arse with politicized nonsense. *

BTW, this is what New York has accomplished:










And the comments from Trump and Birx are?.......<crickets>

Our society dies while the Trumpians cheer the failures.


----------



## Johnny b

Georgia schools.

In the midst of a deadly pandemic, students expose the deadly carelessness of a school's administrators.....and are suspended for it.

*Georgia teens shared photos of maskless students in crowded hallways. Now they're suspended. *
https://www.washingtonpost.com/educ...udents-crowded-hallways-now-theyre-suspended/

This is insanity.


----------



## Wino

Great book !!


----------



## Johnny b

Signs of a dying society.
When school systems refuse to provide data on student covid-19 infections.
Children's lives become a pawn in political gamesmanship of the extreme right wing.
This is more than just Trump. It's the acceptance of fascist/nationalistic logic that Trump and fellow fascists project.
Make America Great Again.
The elderly need not participate as their days are about over anyway, and the lives of our future are irrelevant.
Just make the President 'greater'. 

*Despite federal guidance, schools cite privacy laws to withhold info about COVID-19 cases *

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news...navirus-numbers-they-cant-do-that/3323986001/

It's rather obvious the Trump mentality intends to destroy the educational process.


----------



## Johnny b

Trump:

From hydroxychloroquine to Lysol and Clorox, to voodoo witch doctors to....a new one.
The experimental botanical extract, oleandrin.
Too much to copy and paste.

Read about it here:

* Trump eyes new unproven coronavirus "cure" *
https://www.axios.com/trump-covid-oleandrin-9896f570-6cd8-4919-af3a-65ebad113d41.html

Interesting claim:


> *Whitney has claimed* to administration officials that oleandrin cures COVID-19 in two days, according to a source familiar with his private comments.


(Hint: It's about making fortunes and the usual suspects are Trump supporters and his minions)










https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oleandrin

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oleandrin#Symptoms


----------



## 2twenty2

(Covid-19)
Southeast Asia Detects Mutated Virus Strain Sweeping the World

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/arti...-virus-strain-that-s-10-times-more-infectious


----------



## Johnny b

A covid-19 strategist in Sweden seems willing to trade the lives of the elderly for herd immunity.

*Sweden's Covid-19 strategist under fire over herd immunity emails  *

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2...rategist-under-fire-over-herd-immunity-emails


----------



## Johnny b

Trump now using a pillow manufacturer as a Covid medical advisor.

*Trump 'enthusiastic' over unproven coronavirus therapeutic, MyPillow creator says *
https://www.cnn.com/2020/08/17/politics/trump-oleandrin-mike-lindell-coronavirus/index.html

It gets better.



> Lindell was added to the board of Phoenix Biotechnology, which makes oleandrin, and received a financial stake in the company.


http://www.phoenixbiotechnology.com/board_of_directors.php


> *Mike Lindell, Director
> ...............
> Simultaneously, he was also imprisoned in the darkness of crack cocaine and alcohol addiction, which was destroying his entire life. At one point, the addictions became so severe that his crack cocaine dealers intervened, refusing to sell him any more drugs lest he die. One night in 2009, at the end of his rope, he prayed to God to remove his desire for drugs and alcohol, and the next morning, that desire was gone.*


..................
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mike_Lindell



> In 2016, Lindell's My Pillow company was sued in Alameda County Superior Court in Oakland, California for running ads with false claims of the pillow helping with snoring, fibromyalgia, migraines and other medical conditions. Prosecutors in nine California counties brought the charges against the misleading infomercials.
> 
> In 2017, the Better Business Bureau revoked accreditation of MyPillow, lowering its rating to an F based on a pattern of complaints by consumers.


....................

Too much to copy and paste it all, but a must read, imo.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mike_Lindell#Political_activities

..............

And now, the guy that claimed:


> "When I met with Donald Trump, it felt like a divine appointment, and when I walked out of that office I decided I was going to go all in."


is hawking a miracle cure for Covid-19, made by a company he is a director of .....and the CEO a one time professional gambler.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crandell_Addington

From a Voodoo doctor to an ex-addict pillow manufacturer that 'got right with God' in his sleep one night.
Trumpism.
A cult of people with questionable histories and something to sell.


----------



## Wino

Flimflammers and Grifters all.


----------



## Johnny b

* Coronavirus researchers must examine Trump-backed conspiracy-or lose funding *
https://arstechnica.com/science/202...mine-trump-backed-conspiracy-or-lose-funding/



> "What they're asking for is intelligence information that will be used for policy-making," he said.
> 
> Former NIH Director Harold Varmus called the NIH requests "outrageous."
> 
> In a statement, EcoHealth said that the NIH letter "attempts to impose impossible and irrelevant conditions that will effectively block us from continuing this critical work."


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/EcoHealth_Alliance


> EcoHealth Alliance often works in an investigative capacity with foreign ministries, local scientists, universities, and other NGOs to identify and monitor novel and emergent diseases. The continual monitoring of known zoonotic diseases and the discovery of novel viruses assists in creating a vanguard to prevent new disease outbreaks. The organization has researched the emergence of diseases such as Severe Acute Respiratory Syndrome (SARS), Nipah virus, Middle East Respiratory Syndrome (MERS), Rift Valley fever, and Ebola virus, among others.


Trump is essentially killing humanity, in a desperate search to achieve political leverage against the Chinese.


----------



## 2twenty2

Nevada man becomes first in the US to catch COVID-19 twice

https://nypost.com/2020/08/28/nevada-man-becomes-first-in-the-us-to-catch-covid-19-twice/


----------



## Johnny b

But but but......what happened to the magic of just disappearing?


----------



## 2twenty2

Anti-maskers might want to check out what just happened when a woman with coronavirus visited a Starbucks

https://www.marketwatch.com/story/a...ited-a-starbucks-2020-08-25?mod=mw_quote_news


----------



## Professionalgirl

I have an announcement to make that is extremely important. A friend of mine who resides in Florida just indicated that her son attended the first day of school and was exposed to Covid-19 by a teacher who walked into the classroom sick while another parent sent their child to school sick with the virus as well! A grandparent of another child who attends the same school was also exposed to the virus and expresses her feelings about not being able to hug her grandson or his father. My friend indicated that at least 175 other children were sent home to quarantine. I am deeply concerned that this outbreak will increase dramatically if parents send their children to school. I personally believe that children should be home schooled during the outbreak as in the beginning. My sister is home schooling her daughter and that eases my concerns a bit. 

I am encouraging others who have children in school or adults in college to consider homeschooling to protect those with weak immune systems. People with weak immune systems can include those with cancer, heart disease, Lupus and other similar diseases that can weaken the immune system and if exposed to covid-19 could result in death.


----------



## Wino

Professionalgirl - your post is spot on. With school and fall approaching I expect CV19 to become rampant, making the initial first wave in early 2020 insignificant in relationship. It isn't going to miraculously disappear and until there is a functional vaccine we are in for some real bad times even then. The number of Covidiot "Typhoid Mary's" is a coming catastrophe. Stay safe and be aware of false prophets.


----------



## CountSunrider

Honestly they need to fully suspend all schools and collages until we got a working vaccine/cure


----------



## Professionalgirl

Wino said:


> Professionalgirl - your post is spot on. With school and fall approaching I expect CV19 to become rampant, making the initial first wave in early 2020 insignificant in relationship. It isn't going to miraculously disappear and until there is a functional vaccine we are in for some real bad times even then. The number of Covidiot "Typhoid Mary's" is a coming catastrophe. Stay safe and be aware of false prophets.


Thanks for reading my post. I am relieved to know that someone is listening and adhering to the warning. I also agree that Covid-19 will still be prevalent in 2020. I don't think it will ever end because no one would adhere to the guidelines, and that's because most others think of guidelines as just suggestions and do not need to follow guidelines. It should be enforced (Mandated) not requested as a guideline and that is what our governors are posting. A mandatory regulation will be what society will adhere to because they do not want to incriminate themselves and they know they have to comply. This outbreak would be over if regulatory mandates were set instead. Let's hope the vaccine is available soon and it's safe. As for as Covidiots "Typhoid Mary's" will learn their lesson if they get deathly ill.

As far as false profits made off covid-19 I am fully aware of these scams. I am a trained Cybersecurity professional with a BA degree that was achieved through SNHU (Southern New Hampshire University Online). I was entered into the honor society for outstanding achievements.


----------



## Professionalgirl

CountSunrider said:


> Honestly they need to fully suspend all schools and collages until we got a working vaccine/cure


I agree 100% CountSunrider. All it takes is just one full day of school to get exposed. When children are in a classroom, crowded cafeteria, gymnasium with 20 or more students it is difficult to maintain social distancing and with close contact within 15 minutes or longer will definitely expose someone to the virus. The longer they stick around the more the exposure and that is how someone might get exposed to a very serious case.


----------



## Johnny b

With the technology before us, on-line home schooling seems practical under the circumstances.
Same with college courses.


----------



## Professionalgirl

Speaking of the spread of Coronavirus, My mom just informed me that there are three possible cases in the building for which my mom resides. I asked my mom not to take the elevator and use the stairs instead no matter what! I do not want my mom to possibly be exposed to covid-19 in an elevator with a person that may have been exposed to the virus. My mom has already contracted whooping cough while in the elevator with a woman who was exposed to whooping cough a few years back before the covid-19 pandemic started. If you can be exposed to whooping cough in an elevator you can bet your life you can be exposed to covid-19 in an elevator as well.

I have been keeping an eye on the local news sources and learned that covid-19 cases are spiking by the 100's in some areas because school is back in session and even though the superintendent in some schools are complying with the guidelines set by the CDC the cases continue to rise. I think I know why. The CDC is lax in their ability to mitigate the many different strains of the virus because they don't have the skills necessary to handle a pandemic of this magnitude. I think the CDC is recommending that school superintendents disinfect classrooms in some areas for just one day and send the students and faculty back to school the following day rather than waiting 10 to 14 days after the incubation period ends. 

I personally think it's too dangerous to send the students back to school even for just one day. Its nearly impossible to practice social distancing in a crowded school.


----------



## Johnny b

IMO, there is another (and more important) angle to the ineffective aspect of the CDC.
And that's the political influence from Trump.
Just yesterday I read about the strangeness of Mike Caputo, a Trump appointee to 
Health and Human Services, and the negative effect he's had on the effectiveness of the CDC.

* Trump Health Aide Pushes Bizarre Conspiracies and Warns of Armed Revolt *
https://www.nytimes.com/2020/09/14/us/politics/caputo-virus.html



> Michael R. Caputo told a Facebook audience without evidence that left-wing hit squads were being trained for insurrection and accused C.D.C. scientists of "sedition."


It's rather obvious the CDC has become an unwilling accomplice to the re-election of Trump and a purge is underway.



> This weekend, first Politico, then The New York Times and other news media organizations published accounts of how Mr. Caputo and a top aide had routinely worked to revise, delay or even scuttle the core health bulletins of the C.D.C. to paint the administration's pandemic response in a more positive light.





> Mr. Caputo predicted that the president would win re-election in November, but that his Democratic opponent, Joseph R. Biden Jr., would refuse to concede, leading to violence. "And when Donald Trump refuses to stand down at the inauguration, the shooting will begin,"


And with that, a call for a civil war.

That imagery is Trump's America.
Many Militia groups seem to call it "American Revolution 2.0"

* Revealed: major anti-lockdown group's links to America's far right *
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2...inks-coronavirus-protests-american-revolution


----------



## Couriant

I cringe to see our son's classmates wearing neck gaiters ... and some not even covering the nose... so what's the point... and these families are not poor... the school is private and made up of a lot of rich families... so there is no reason for these kids to have poor protection... a lot of them are like EKs too (Entitled 'Karens and Kyles'), doing whatever they want regardless for their own convenience. What's sad is that a lot of them are doctors...

I am waiting for the day they close lower school because of some kid/s has the virus because there will be backlash because of how they are treating this pandemic (I have a post somewhere about this)

As to your post Johnny, I am not surprised... though all i see is most if not all of the propaganda is coming from the right wing groups


----------



## Johnny b

This is unsettling.
As Barr claims:

* Barr calls coronavirus lockdowns the 'greatest intrusion on civil liberties' since slavery *
https://www.politico.com/news/2020/09/17/william-barr-coronavirus-lockdowns-slavery-416776

This is ramping up in Europe:

*WHO warns of 'very serious situation' in Europe, with 'alarming rates' of virus transmission *
https://www.cnn.com/2020/09/17/europe/coronavirus-europe-who-second-wave-intl/index.html

'Magically disappear'


----------



## Professionalgirl

Johnny b said:


> This is unsettling.
> As Barr claims:
> 
> * Barr calls coronavirus lockdowns the 'greatest intrusion on civil liberties' since slavery *
> https://www.politico.com/news/2020/09/17/william-barr-coronavirus-lockdowns-slavery-416776
> 
> This is ramping up in Europe:
> 
> *WHO warns of 'very serious situation' in Europe, with 'alarming rates' of virus transmission *
> https://www.cnn.com/2020/09/17/europe/coronavirus-europe-who-second-wave-intl/index.html
> 
> 'Magically disappear'


Hi Johnny, The reason you stated above is the very reason we need lockdowns. I dont think it's unconstitutional to protect our citizens and place them on lockdown temporarily. The virus will not magically disappear. However, this virus is a potentially deadly pneumonia and not enough people are taking it serious. It will continuously spread and spiral out of control at a very large magnitude if drastic quarantine measures are not in place to mitigate the spread.

Besides, IMO the pandemic lockdown should not be viewed as civil unrest or "House Arrest" and should be viewed as a safety measure by society. Citizens should think about potential consequences associated with a potentially deadly virus that may cause the death of a family member. If someone in their family dies from this horrible virus, they would no longer experience a sense of slavery and view it as a health life saving measure instead.


----------



## Johnny b

Agree, completely.
The lockdowns we've experienced are a pragmatic response to an extreme situation, for survival.
They've been a response that allows a society to endure a hardship rather than perish from it.


----------



## Wino

Professionalgirl said:


> ......................................................................snip.. Citizens should think about potential consequences associated with a potentially deadly virus that may cause the death of a family member.* If someone in their family dies from this horrible virus, they would no longer experience a sense of slavery and view it as a health life saving measure instead.*


While I admire your thinking, it's giving too much credit for logical thinking for many Americans. I truly believe that if the president lost his entire family to CV-19 he would continue down the same misguided road already traveled and bring along all his toadies and sycophants. The fact he rebuked head of CDC for his comments on vaccines and masks was as telling as a poke in the eye he has no idea what the hell he's talking about, no empathy, no morality and "sympathy" is a 20 string orchestra playing in a "symphony".


----------



## Brigham

I can't understand the people that think that there is no virus, and that it is all a way for Bill Gates to sell vaccines.


----------



## zebanovich

Brigham said:


> I can't understand the people that think that there is no virus


It's pretty easy to understand them if you label then as "non people" instead of "people"

Because, people care about other people, but, "non people" do not.


----------



## Professionalgirl

Wino said:


> While I admire your thinking, it's giving too much credit for logical thinking for many Americans. I truly believe that if the president lost his entire family to CV-19 he would continue down the same misguided road already traveled and bring along all his toadies and sycophants. The fact he rebuked head of CDC for his comments on vaccines and masks was as telling as a poke in the eye he has no idea what the hell he's talking about, no empathy, no morality and "sympathy" is a 20 string orchestra playing in a "symphony".


Politicians have always been cold hearted IMO. That is sad.


----------



## Wino

Cold heart and uncaring, but none I know of as vile and evil as Trump.


----------



## Johnny b

Wino said:


> Cold heart and uncaring, but none I know of as vile and evil as Trump.


There are several in Ohio on the State level that are obviously more so.
They simply do not have the necessary resources nor the salesmanship of a snake oil hustler ( ie. real estate developer )


----------



## Johnny b

* Trump promised 200,000 Covid-19 vaccinations a day. That's 5 to 9 years to vaccinate the US.*
https://www.vox.com/21495224/presidential-debate-trump-vaccine-coronavirus-covid



> "We have the military all set up. Logistically, they're all set up. We have our military that delivers soldiers, and they can do 200,000 a day. They're going to be delivering the vaccine."
> 
> ................... At a rate of 200,000 vaccinations a day, it'd take more than 1,650 days - nearly five years - to vaccinate the entire country. If everyone needs two doses, which could be the case with the first generation of vaccines, it would take more than nine years.
> 
> ...........if the military piece is really the highlight of Trump's plan, the math shows it's so little it shouldn't reassure anyone.
> 
> Trump also claimed that the US will have a vaccine in the coming weeks, echoing previous comments he's made that a vaccine will be ready in October. In the past, he's also claimed that the vaccine will be available to everyone quickly - what he called "full distribution." He repeated that last night, claiming, "Well, we're going to deliver it right away."


----------



## Professionalgirl

Johnny b said:


> * Trump promised 200,000 Covid-19 vaccinations a day. That's 5 to 9 years to vaccinate the US.*
> https://www.vox.com/21495224/presidential-debate-trump-vaccine-coronavirus-covid


Hi Johnny, I don't trust the vaccine will be affective. I think it will do more harm than good. I also suspect there is a conspiracy to control the population by reopening businesses at full capacity without looking back. I caught that in a section of the article through the link that you posted.

That virus already spread to my sister's husband's work site. Thankfully he was not exposed!


----------



## 2twenty2

U.S. President Donald Trump, Melania Trump test positive for coronavirus
Top aide who spent time with the U.S. president this week has also tested positive for virus
https://www.cbc.ca/news/world/hope-hicks-trump-positive-covid-19-1.5747343


----------



## Wino

He is such a drama queen, don't know whether to believe or not. Always looking to be the victim and begging for empathy while not reciprocating for others. He cries wolf so much, hard to distinguish truth from fiction, albeit there is little if any of the former. I do not wish this evil man well and expect my feelings would be reciprocated by him. With Dr. Atlas in charge, all should go well.


----------



## zebanovich

I understand when Americans say they don't like Trump, but I want him to stay in office for many reasons.

I don't think Biden would shut down jobs anything more than Trump just to "save" people from COVID-19, it's just an excuse to get the elections.

Trump might be funny or odd at some times but Biden is comparable to G. Bush. or H. Clinton, they (democrats) all behave same way.


----------



## Johnny b

zebanovich said:


> I understand when Americans say they don't like Trump, but I want him to stay in office for many reasons.
> 
> I don't think Biden would shut down jobs anything more than Trump just to "save" people from COVID-19, it's just an excuse to get the elections.
> 
> Trump might be funny or odd at some times but Biden is comparable to G. Bush. or H. Clinton, they (democrats) all behave same way.


Registered Republican here.
I simply don't see Trump as being 'Republican'.
I don't recognize the core of the GOP as being 'Republican' any more.
As said, things change.
Democrats have been shifting to socialism and Republicans shifting to fascism.
It didn't just happen all of a sudden.

We are now seeing factions promoting their agendas with confidence.
From Proud Boys to the NFAC, radical political activists attempt to fill a current void once filled with cooperative moderates of both parties, that no longer exists.

IMO, Trump represents a very polarized portion of the US.
Biden, not so much.

IMO, voting is the only proper way to settle who represents the public.

So, everyone, go vote.


----------



## zebanovich

Johnny b said:


> Democrats have been shifting to socialism and Republicans shifting to fascism.
> It didn't just happen all of a sudden.


I think this trend isn't popular just in USA, it's getting popularity all over the world, the old demons of previous times are coming back. it's just that now they are called "populists" and similar "modern" names, like
"right wing" and "leftists" etc..

It all leads to globalization with only 2 poles and not "multi polar world" which
Putin often talks about "multipolar world" refers to multiple strong countries instead of just one, but in fact there will be only 2 poles (political poles, not countries) IMO in the near future.

Those 2 poles are already so strong that any new "pole" stands no chance in globalized world.


----------



## Professionalgirl

2twenty2 said:


> U.S. President Donald Trump, Melania Trump test positive for coronavirus
> Top aide who spent time with the U.S. president this week has also tested positive for virus
> https://www.cbc.ca/news/world/hope-hicks-trump-positive-covid-19-1.5747343


Hi 2twenty2, If he did contract the virus it serves him right for not taking it serious and making fun of those who do wear masks. The president is not very mature for his age. He is irresponsible and should have never been elected as our president. A real estate man with possible covid-19 smh.


----------



## 2twenty2

*Hydroxychloroquine Doctor is Furious Donald Trump Took 'Experimental Antibody Stupidness'*

https://www.newsweek.com/hydroxychl...took-experimental-antibody-stupidness-1536161


----------



## Johnny b

2twenty2 said:


> *Hydroxychloroquine Doctor is Furious Donald Trump Took 'Experimental Antibody Stupidness'*
> 
> https://www.newsweek.com/hydroxychl...took-experimental-antibody-stupidness-1536161


Looks like the Voodoo priestess is on the outs.


----------



## Wino

Woke this morning hoping to hear Trump had resigned due to health reasons and being stupid. No joy.


----------



## 2twenty2

Factbox: Trump White House, Campaign Staff Who Have Tested Positive for COVID-19

https://www.usnews.com/news/top-new...n-staff-who-have-tested-positive-for-covid-19

https://www.cbc.ca/news/world/trump-circle-covid-1.5749693


----------



## Wino

Wino said:


> While I admire your thinking, it's giving too much credit for logical thinking for many Americans.* I truly believe that if the president lost his entire family to CV-19 he would continue down the same misguided road already traveled and bring along all his toadies and sycophants. *The fact he rebuked head of CDC for his comments on vaccines and masks was as telling as a poke in the eye he has no idea what the hell he's talking about, no empathy, no morality and "sympathy" is a 20 string orchestra playing in a "symphony".


Seems my expectations are being met by president putz.


----------



## 2twenty2

*'Don't be afraid of Covid-19': Donald Trump before White House return*

https://indianexpress.com/article/w...-white-house-hard-hit-by-coronavirus-6704586/

https://torontosun.com/news/world/t...nday/wcm/84c40333-dda4-4ebc-a54f-6997adcd95f8

https://www.dailysignal.com/2020/10...use-after-3-day-hospitalization-for-covid-19/

https://www.msn.com/en-au/lifestyle...ite-house-hard-hit-by-coronavirus/ar-BB19HAK0


----------



## Wino

I'm hopeful the electorate can do to him what CV-19 couldn't and end his abysmal administration come Nov. 3. Such a pathetic excuse of a human being.


----------



## 2twenty2

*Trump compares COVID-19 to flu in tweet, Twitter raises red flag*

https://torontosun.com/news/world/t...flag/wcm/aa376cfd-8604-4c72-b006-ece1d7edbc09


----------



## zebanovich

It looks like Trump tries to convince people that COVID is not harmful, maybe not for him who got such world class medical treatment.

Do other Americans get such treatment so that they can start to believe it's just a flu? I don't think so...


----------



## Wino

Listening to the sickening bloviation from the orange ogre one would think CV-19 is a "jovial" coronavirus than a 'novel' coronavirus. Ignorance may be corrected; stupid is forever - he suffers from the latter.

My Nov. 3 mail in ballot was mailed via USPS at post office on Monday Oct. 5. I checked our local elections web site late yesterday afternoon Oct. 6 and it shows my ballot has been received and logged. Vote early, folks!!!


----------



## Johnny b

* White House coronavirus outbreak may have exposed thousands from Atlanta to Minnesota *

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news...d-rallies-debates-and-fundraisers/5907663002/



> From a religious summit outside Atlanta to a campaign rally at a Pennsylvania airport and a private fundraiser in Minnesota, Trump, his aides and political allies attended events with thousands of people, often without masks and little regard for social distancing.


What were the chances ....


----------



## Chawbacon

Wino said:


> Listening to the sickening bloviation from the orange ogre one would think CV-19 is a "jovial" coronavirus than a 'novel' coronavirus. Ignorance may be corrected; stupid is forever - he suffers from the latter.


You do realize that "novel" in relation to a virus mean "new", as opposed to "more important, deadly, virulent, etc?

I believe that the President was attempting to convey that people should not live their lives in fear of Covid-19.


----------



## Johnny b

Chawbacon said:


> ........................................
> 
> I believe that the President was attempting to convey that people should not live their lives in fear of Covid-19.


There you go again. 



> A U.S. President should never deliberately lie to the American people.


!!


----------



## Chawbacon

Johnny b said:


> There you go again.
> 
> !!


That did not follow the rules... Too much grey area here, as you well know.


----------



## Johnny b

Chawbacon said:


> That did not follow the rules... Too much grey area here, as you well know.


Rules?
You make that up as you go along?


----------



## Johnny b

Trump--a Covid super spreader.

https://www.webmd.com/lung/news/20201006/white-house-is-now-a-super-spreader-site

And it looks like the US is following his trendy advice:
From Johns Hopkins 10-12-2020










And all it takes to alleviate the above is the wearing of masks, social distancing and common sense.

Arizona:
https://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/volumes/69/wr/mm6940e3.htm










Trump------->common sense? LOL ( No! )

(Seeing that the above CDC report is relatively new ( October 6 ) I suspect the backlash from the Trump death cult will respond as soon as one of Trump's minions reads it with Trump responding that it's a lie to overthrow his Presidency. )


----------



## Wino

Facts, truth, science, mean nothing to Trumpers.


----------



## Chawbacon

That report does not surprise me at all. This is a micro-droplet spread virus. The lockdowns simply buy some time to develop therapeutics and/or shots to prevent infection/reduce symptoms of an infection. This virus is going to spread naturally, unless the world is willing to go hermit (no essential services) for a month or so.


----------



## Johnny b

Chawbacon said:


> That report does not surprise me at all. This is a micro-droplet spread virus. The lockdowns simply buy some time to develop therapeutics and/or shots to prevent infection/reduce symptoms of an infection. This virus is going to spread naturally, unless the world is willing to go hermit (no essential services) for a month or so.


There is nothing natural to politics playing a role in the spread of Covid-19.
Intentionally infecting a population is a man made concept.
Going 'hermit' was a result ( in the US ) of Trump intentionally allowing the virus to over run medical facilities to the point extreme measures were enacted.
Even then, because Covid-19 became Trump's political football, too many people that were either unconcerned, ignorant, or followers of Trumpism........common sense was too often denied and the virus infection was not contained and rebounded with the potential of a more serious fall/winter second wave.

The virus hasn't been spreading naturally and will likely continue until an efficient vaccine is developed, as long as common sense is denied, and wearing masks and social distancing is a political issue.


----------



## 2twenty2

*U.S. surpasses 8 million coronavirus cases*

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/covid-19-cases-8-million-united-states/
https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/confirmed-coronavirus-cases-in-us-surpass-8-million/ar-BB1a5z4a


----------



## Johnny b

Are Trumpites on Trump's 'hit' list too?

* It's 'no surprise' we're seeing coronavirus surge in Republican areas, ER doctor explains *
https://finance.yahoo.com/news/coronavirus-surge-in-republican-areas-124951839.html

Trump once boasted he could shoot someone on 5th Avenue and he wouldn't lose any votes.

I wonder if several hundred thousand deaths would make a difference? 
Especially if it includes Trumpites?


----------



## Chawbacon

If you guys were military Intel Analyst, the troops you support would point their weapons in the other direction. 

So lets look beyond the silly name calling "Death Cult" and look at the real numbers and concerns.



> *Coronavirus case-fatality rate down despite surge in cases*
> https://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2020/oct/26/coronavirus-case-fatality-rate-down-despite-surge-/
> 
> The good news is the share of people who are dying after testing positive for the virus is down to 2.6%...
> 
> ...People of all ages with underlying conditions such as heart disease and diabetes remain susceptible to bad outcomes from COVID-19...
> 
> ... The real case-fatality rate for the disease is probably closer to 0.6%, experts say, which doesn't sound so bad but is worse than the annual flu, which is often closer to 0.1%...
> 
> ... But it is roughly on par with the U.K., at 68, and worse than France (52), Israel (27), Germany (12)


Ok... Now please engage in an intelligent conversation that omits the blind Trump rage that is so often prevalent here. Thanks!


----------



## Johnny b

Chawbacon said:


> If you guys were military Intel Analyst, the troops you support would point their weapons in the other direction.
> 
> So lets look beyond the silly name calling "Death Cult" and look at the real numbers and concerns.
> 
> Ok... Now please engage in an intelligent conversation that omits the blind Trump rage that is so often prevalent here. Thanks!





> If you guys were military Intel Analyst, the troops you support would point their weapons in the other direction.


Says the guy that argued Saddam had the claimed WMD chem trailers that never existed 

Denial of reality suits you, Jack. 
Nearly a quarter million Covid-19 deaths is not an insignificant number, especially as the Trump administration intentionally denied there was a pandemic entering the US and did nothing to mitigate the death count until it became too obvious to the public.....and by then the damage was great.

The known death count from Covid-19 stands at 226K and is expected to reach 500K by February.
Those alone are significant numbers that you try to demean.
But there is more to consider.
The stats for 'long haulers' has not been calculated.
Deaths. other than from Covid-19, from over crowded hospitals is another concern, especially with the coming of what is called the 'third wave' associated with winter months.

The number of infections in the US is currently at about 9 million.
But there are more people living in the US than 9M.
There are approximately 328 million.
Using your logic and your numbers, there is the potential of an even greater number of future deaths, even with a vaccine 'herd' immunity won't be achieved for something in the order of a year or more, at best.

Denial turned to down playing the number of deaths and now a period of unnecessary dying is upon us.
Caution and pragmatism have become political targets.
The death count now presented as inconsequential.

Fact: People are dying.
Trump denied there was a problem.
Trump promoted insane solutions.
And the beat goes on with those that deny there is a pandemic problem.



> Ok... Now please engage in an intelligent conversation that omits the blind Trump rage that is so often prevalent here. Thanks!


Maybe you're just too sensitive because of your politics?  ( .... )


----------



## Chawbacon

Johnny b said:


> Says the guy that argued Saddam had the claimed WMD chem trailers that never existed


The U.S. did find hidden caches of chemical weapons, which by definition is a WMD, in Iraq. 
But OK... And here I thought that you believed everything printed by your CNN mothership.
https://www.cnn.com/2014/10/15/us/iraq-chemical-weapons/index.html


Johnny b said:


> The number of infections in the US is currently at about 9 million.
> But there are more people living in the US than 9M.
> There are approximately 328 million.
> Using your logic and your numbers, there is the potential of an even greater number of future deaths, even with a vaccine 'herd' immunity won't be achieved for something in the order of a year or more, at best.


Correct! As I have stated before, this virus is going to run it's course regardless of our shutdown efforts, which have bought us time to examine the virus and identify treatments to significantly lessen the impact of the virus. 


Johnny b said:


> Fact: People are dying.
> Trump denied there was a problem.
> Trump promoted insane solutions.
> And the beat goes on with those that deny there is a pandemic problem.


I truly admire how you manage to mix true statements with outright illogical statements and sound like you are assuming a moral high road. It is almost artistic. 

Yes... People are dying.
No... Trump did not promote insane solutions.
No... No one is denying that there is a pandemic; however, we are better able to treat Covid-19 at this point in time.

NOW... Since you are such an expert, exactly how would you have done a better job combating Covid-19 than the President Trump? Besides the obvious lying to the public concerning the severity of the virus? Yes, I do have the ability to be critical of Trump when legitimately warranted.


----------



## Johnny b

Chawbacon said:


> The U.S. did find hidden caches of chemical weapons, which by definition is a WMD, in Iraq.
> But OK... And here I thought that you believed everything printed by your CNN mothership.
> https://www.cnn.com/2014/10/15/us/iraq-chemical-weapons/index.html
> Correct! As I have stated before, this virus is going to run it's course regardless of our shutdown efforts, which have bought us time to examine the virus and identify treatments to significantly lessen the impact of the virus.
> I truly admire how you manage to mix true statements with outright illogical statements and sound like you are assuming a moral high road. It is almost artistic.
> 
> Yes... People are dying.
> No... Trump did not promote insane solutions.
> No... No one is denying that there is a pandemic; however, we are better able to treat Covid-19 at this point in time.
> 
> NOW... Since you are such an expert, exactly how would you have done a better job combating Covid-19 than the President Trump? Besides the obvious lying to the public concerning the severity of the virus? Yes, I do have the ability to be critical of Trump when legitimately warranted.





> The U.S. did find hidden caches of chemical weapons, which by definition is a WMD, in Iraq.
> But OK... And here I thought that you believed everything printed by your CNN mothership.


The US found many 'cashes' of artillery shells from the previous Iraq-Iran war that were buried and forgotten only to turn up as leaky and ineffective as weapons of mass destruction.
Santorum tried making the same claims as you have, the same incidences often repeatedly reported as new finds.
They weren't the claimed weapons that the Bush administration used as an excuse for a war. They were no longer effective as weapons.
I even gave you an interview of Bush admitting none of the claimed WMDs were ever found and I'm confident that either he or Cheney would have made an issue of any claims actually uncovered.

But your previous claim was to the existence of mobile chemical trailers, a claim Powell had to withdraw, in front of the UN.



> As I have stated before, this virus is going to run it's course regardless of our shutdown efforts.....


You did state that and all it was was misdirection and your typical attempt to rationalize Trump's disastrous Covid-19 responses and attitudes.
There is no 'regardless' to the actions of our leadership.
The virus runs largely unchecked because of the ineptness and denial within Trump's ranks and it starts with Trump, being our leader.
The shutdown orders occur because of the failure of a society to embrace the common sense and pragmatism of using masks and social distancing as measures to mitigate the viral spread.
The extent of the pandemic is on Trump and those that refuse to use safe social practices and willingly infect the public at large.
There is nothing normal about the neglect, intent or ignorance that currently spreads this virus.



> I truly admire how you manage to mix true statements with outright illogical statements and sound like you are assuming a moral high road. It is almost artistic.


LOL. The back handed compliment.
I have no admiration nor respect for your position. 
Too supportive of a death cult, imo.



> No... Trump did not promote insane solutions.


What is this, a Jr High School debate tactic?
Of course he did, even the insanity of a voodoo practitioner. 
Also bleach, lysol and UV light bulbs. lol.

His solution now appears to just let everyone get infected with the promise a vaccine is 'just a few weeks' away.



> No one is denying that there is a pandemic; however, we are better able to treat Covid-19 at this point in time.


How does that statement dovetail into the Trump administration's denials of reality?
Trump has promoted a distrust of scientists and doctors while they struggle for solutions.
It doesn't.
The successes of science and medicine are not his to claim. Medical advancement has been made in spite of Trump. In spite of your rationalization of accepting death as a given solution, 'running it's course' was your phrase.



> Since you are such an expert....


I've made no claims about myself, but I do listen to and consider the opinions of knowledgeable scientists and doctors.
I observe and compare.
Trump's way involves a lot of unnecessary death and suffering, which you do seem to support.



> .....exactly how would you have done a better job combating Covid-19 than the President Trump?


Well (  ) if I had that kind of influence, I wouldn't use you, Trump or any denier as a source of information and advice.
I wouldn't have gutted government programs that dealt with pandemics.
I would rely on experts, something that Trump is proud to refuse because of his imagined intellect.

The very first thing I would have done is accept reality and respond.
The first thing Trump did was deny there was a problem and didn't respond till the virus had a serious foothold that was so bad, his announcement on TV was incredibly strained and worrying

I'd ask all of the members of our society to be co-operative rather than Trump's position of being divisive.

Unfortunately, the above is no longer possible.
Trump's plan to divide our nation has been successful.

There are just too many people that see mitigation as a political tool and deny the dangers of Covid-19.

But I would and do now, recommend the usage of masks, social distancing and common sense.
Mitigation early on would obviously have relieved much of the draconian shut down.
That's in the past.
Because of the deniers, I suspect some Governors will wind up ordering shutdowns under the worst conditions this winter.

Well, that's my position, Jack.
Entirely different from your 'acceptance with out complaint' approach.


----------



## valis

Chawbacon said:


> No... Trump did not promote insane solutions.


pretty sure that has been proven incorrect....


----------



## Johnny b

What the Trump administration doesn't want the public to know.

* Someone leaked the COVID hospitalization data taken from the CDC *
https://arstechnica.com/science/202...ovid-hospitalization-data-taken-from-the-cdc/



> *After a change in reporting procedure, daily updates vanished.*


----------



## steppenwolf

in 1918 people probably died from wearing masks

the human mouth is about the dirtyest thing on earth and sometimes the mask makes me feel im polluted or drowning -wear it as little as possible

i suppose the idea of fresh air will bring on an argument from Johnny


----------



## Couriant

steppenwolf said:


> in 1918 people probably died from wearing masks
> 
> the human mouth is about the dirtyest thing on earth and sometimes the mask makes me feel im polluted or drowning -wear it as little as possible
> 
> i suppose the idea of fresh air will bring on an argument from Johnny


They died from getting infected... not getting their masks on. And in those days, they didn't have the quality of science as we do now.

Then clean your mouth more often... You are complaining about wearing a mask for a little while (in a store) while there are doctors and nurses wearing theirs for their entire shifts... even a nurse showed that she was wearing 3 masks and still maintained 98% O2 levels... I only wear my mask when I am going to a store... not in the car, and not at home as we have social distanced since the beginning of this pandemic. It is not hard and really not an inconvenience to help protect myself, my family, and others.

I have had the covid test so many times and even the antibody test... all negative.

in summary: 3 words: get over yourself.


----------



## Johnny b

steppenwolf said:


> in 1918 people probably died from wearing masks
> 
> the human mouth is about the dirtyest thing on earth and sometimes the mask makes me feel im polluted or drowning -wear it as little as possible
> 
> i suppose the idea of fresh air will bring on an argument from Johnny


Admit it, you've been watching crazy Joe Imbriano again. 

I like the outdoors and fresh air. 

But I don't intend to share the same exact air I breathe with a person that has a Covid-19 infection, though.
To prevent that accidental infection that could occur, an air filter is wise. A wearable air filter in case you don't know what that would be. (  )

BTW, your bs is what infects those that believe those silly claims.
You can misrepresent wearing a mask all you want.
Only a Trumpie would believe you  .... ......
And from the photos at Trump's rallies, there are those that wear a mask anyway.
There's an obvious reason.


----------



## Johnny b

Couriant said:


> ................
> 
> ............ I only wear my mask when I am going to a store... not in the car, and not at home as we have social distanced since the beginning of this pandemic. It is not hard and really not an inconvenience to help protect myself, my family, and others.
> 
> ..............


Pretty much the same here.
Using common sense goes a long way toward staying healthy.
And it's the civilized way to treat your fellow human being, no matter what their politics are.


----------



## steppenwolf

i do like masks at times and i didnt say i didnt

for years ive been coughed on by people and i sort of think they were not conservatives
i just say dont overuse a damn mask

i can see myself carrying a mask for the next 30 years


----------



## Couriant

steppenwolf said:


> i do like masks *at times* and i didnt say i didnt


 but you just did....



steppenwolf said:


> for years ive been coughed on by people and i sort of think they were not conservatives


That doesn't make sense... like at all... that is some warped thinking.... and in all of the videos that have Trumpies purposely coughing AT people...



steppenwolf said:


> i just say dont overuse a damn mask


Unless you are a nsophobia, you wouldn't be overusing masks...



steppenwolf said:


> i can see myself carrying a mask for the next 30 years


I highly doubt it, but you do you... just not near me.


----------



## Johnny b

James is correct, steppenwolf. You are sending mixed messages.

I've used 3M N95 masks for about 25 years because of a mold allergy.
Until Covid-19, I only wore them when I suspected there was or would be exposure to mold.
Like cutting the grass.
Or a few older buildings with dirty air ducts.
Forests.

Everything negative claimed about proper usage is pure BS.


----------



## steppenwolf

just because someone is shown on internet doing illegal or rude act or words doesnt mean they are of the party they are trying to make look bad -who knows

ever hear of jussie smollett?


----------



## steppenwolf

im sick of this ridiculous discussion- do what you want

you people will argue about anything


----------



## Johnny b

steppenwolf said:


> just because someone is shown on internet doing illegal or rude act or words doesnt mean they are of the party they are trying to make look bad -who knows
> 
> ever hear of jussie smollett?


Donald Trump does it all the time LOL!
So do many of his supporters that reside in government positions.

They are politicians.
Jussie Smollett is an actor....... that I have no interest in.

I do agree that Trump isn't republican, but he does 'own' the GOP.
It's now the Party of Trump and it's led by a malevolent opportunist.
Smollett is an actor.... that has legal problems.

I think you are confused 

[Edited for typo]


----------



## Johnny b

steppenwolf said:


> im sick of this ridiculous discussion- do what you want
> 
> you people will argue about anything


Well......you did come back a bit early.
Did you expect the Covid-19 infections to just disappear in 24 hours?

The death count as of this morning stands at just over 231,500 and the infections at almost 9,300,000.

Experts project large increases in both for this winter.


----------



## Couriant

steppenwolf said:


> just because someone is shown on internet doing illegal or rude act or words doesnt mean they are of the party they are trying to make look bad -who knows
> 
> ever hear of jussie smollett?












What does Jussie Smollett have anything to do with this thread? He is a failed actor that tried to claim he was victim of a hate crime blaming the Trump administration but he made it all up and faced indictments and lost his role in Empire. And this happened in February 2019... one year before Coronavirus...

(BTW I guess he didn't learn from lying/providing false information to the police in 2007 ... but i digress)

What are you even referencing when you made this post? Please use the quote button so we can get an idea on what you are talking about.



steppenwolf said:


> im sick of this ridiculous discussion- do what you want
> 
> you people will argue about anything


You are the one that keeps coming here.

I am trying to have a constructive talk with our members, but when anyone sprouts words that mean nothing, then you will be rebutted.


----------



## Johnny b

Trump's legacy:

US daily infection and death rates on the rise again after Trump's recent claim the worst is over.

Currently at about 9.5 million infections and 234 thousand deaths.

From Johns Hopkins:


----------



## Johnny b

The 'around the bend' 'almost over' pandemic.
In the US, yesterday's infection rate hit a new high of almost 123,000 and an increase in daily deaths.

Daily infections:










Daily Deaths:










To the doubters, I strongly suggest you wear a mask and practice social distancing when out in the public.
It helps protect everyone and that includes you.


----------



## Johnny b

https://coronavirus.jhu.edu/map.html

Another new record of daily infections.


----------



## Wino

Mark Meadows, Matt Gaetz Test Positive for COVID in Latest Trump Inner-Circle Outbreak - two more doubters and Trump sycophant plus toadies. Guessing the gas mask Gaetz wore to hearing didn't work. Heh heh !!


----------



## Johnny b

Trumpism and his death cult.
Another day, another record for daily infections and an increase of the daily death count.

https://coronavirus.jhu.edu/map.html


----------



## Johnny b

The mentality of Trumpism.

This is a long USAToday investigative report.

*'They think workers are like dogs.' How pork plant execs sacrificed safety for profits. *
https://www.usatoday.com/in-depth/n...us-death-pork-plants-meat-packing/6044754002/

It's also about the politicians that co-operated.



> *From City Hall to the White House, our investigation found, officials let Triumph Foods stay open as hundreds of workers got coronavirus. Four died.*
> 
> Essential worker means that we're on the front lines working, because we're the ones providing food for people and they're depending on us. Essential worker means you're on your own. You make money for them and then you endanger your family.


----------



## Johnny b

Trumpism:

Another record day of US daily infections and the daily death count spikes suddenly:


----------



## Johnny b

The election is over, Trump lost.

But his lies live on in suffering, misery and death.

*US healthcare on brink as COVID-19 hospitalizations hit all-time high *
https://arstechnica.com/science/202...-covid-19-hospitalizations-hit-all-time-high/



> *There's a "very dark winter" ahead as hospitals struggle to cope and cases keep rising.*
> 
> More people in the United States are currently hospitalized with COVID-19 than ever before in the pandemic, and hospitals in numerous states are on the brink of being overwhelmed.
> 
> Around 62,000 people in the US are now in the hospital with the pandemic coronavirus, topping all previous peaks in hospitalizations, which were around 60,000, according to the COVID Tracking Project. The surge is intense and diffuse. Hospitalizations are up 40 percent over the last two weeks alone, and they're rising in every region of the country.


----------



## Wino

Rather than a fiddle, he plays golf while the nation burns. Zeus, this man is a piece of trash - worse than vermin.


----------



## Johnny b

Another day of increased daily infections and what is Trump doing?
153K! In one day!

* Trump Floats Improbable Survival Scenarios as He Ponders His Future *
https://www.nytimes.com/2020/11/12/us/politics/trump-future.html


----------



## Wino

It appears the president has given up on presidenting altogether - not that he was any good at it to begin with. He gave up on CV19 in Jan. 2020 and started the demise of the USA in Nov. 2016. Been a horror show of ineptness ever since. He'll not be missed.


----------



## Johnny b

steppenwolf said:


> in 1918 people probably died from wearing masks
> 
> .......................


I wondered where you got that bogus claim.
And then this popped up:

* Fact check: Dr. Anthony Fauci did not say masks contributed to Spanish flu deaths *
https://www.usatoday.com/story/news...ks-contributed-spanish-flu-deaths/6061925002/

Facebook? Ha ha ha ha ha!

:down:


----------



## Wino

This is probably the best meme ever and depicts the Trump era to a tee:


----------



## Cookiegal

Now Donald Trump Jr. has tested positive:

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/donald-trump-jr-covid-positive/


----------



## Wino

I never wish bad things on good people, so my conscience is clear when I say, "I hope he suffers yugely !!" 🤬


----------



## Johnny b

While Trump ignores the pandemic crisis and attempts to steal an election, this is what is going on in Texas:

* The National Guard has been deployed to El Paso to provide support with the morgue crisis *
https://www.cnn.com/2020/11/21/us/el-paso-national-guard-morgue-coronavirus-trnd/index.html

This is looking grim.


----------



## Cookiegal

No it seems Rudy Giuliani has the virus but it's according to Trump only so far:

https://www.cnn.com/2020/12/06/politics/rudy-giuliani-coronavirus-positive/index.html


----------



## Wino

He would never lie to us!!😤


----------



## Cookiegal

Right.


----------



## Johnny b

* Senate invites fringe, unscientific medical group to testify about COVID *
https://arstechnica.com/science/202...entific-medical-group-to-testify-about-covid/

Just when you thought things couldn't get any worse................


----------



## Johnny b

To get cured, some of you must die first?

* 'We want them infected': Trump appointee demanded 'herd immunity' strategy, emails reveal *
https://www.politico.com/news/2020/12/16/trump-appointee-demanded-herd-immunity-strategy-446408



> A top Trump appointee repeatedly urged top health officials to adopt a "herd immunity" approach to Covid-19 and allow millions of Americans to be infected by the virus, according to internal emails obtained by a House watchdog and shared with POLITICO.


----------



## Cookiegal

Nor France's President Emmanuel Macron has Covid-19:

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news...el-macron-tests-positive-covid-19/3937050001/


----------



## Wino

While CV-19 has been terrible for the nation and the world it did help to prevent Trump from being reelected and showed the world what a truly despicable human being he is/was will always be. He will remain a PITA until his demise, but I'm hopeful he will never become president again and will actually spend some time in prison for his crimes against this nation and it's people.


----------



## Johnny b

I see your point, but looking at a bigger picture, Trump + Covid-19 is probably the desired outcome from the Russian pov.

And without a lot of like minded people, Trump would have had little influence.
Trumpers hate so intensely, they'll put their own lives at risk by claiming masks are a political issue.
Irrational? Insane? How do you bring reason to people that act like that?

Putin didn't need for Trump to survive the political/economic wasteland Trump/Covid created.
Putin's goals were in motion long before Trump was elected and we're still seeing them play out.
That would be Russian domination with increasing influence on a global scale. For that to happen, the US would need a reduction of it's own influence and that has largely happened during the Trump administration.

Revisionist Trumptonian history is the next set.
Did you recently read in the forum where Steven Miller was idolized as an authoritative source? LOL! 
Paraphrasing: 'Trump was a kindly despot that solved illegal immigration humanely." (  )

These are the days of Qanon, militant militias, hate groups and fundamentalists.
Conservatives became RINOs.
Trump becomes the 'Deep State' as he builds his own 'shadow government'.


----------



## SeanLaurence

Wino said:


> While CV-19 has been terrible for the nation and the world it did help to prevent Trump from being reelected and showed the world what a truly despicable human being he is/was will always be. He will remain a PITA until his demise, but I'm hopeful he will never become president again and will actually spend some time in prison for his crimes against this nation and it's people.


That is an interesting hypothetical: If it were not for Covid, would he have won a second term? There were not that many votes between Trump and Biden in the 3 key states. 
However, Supporters are often more than blind to how he handled the crisis. 
Perhaps the first impeachment would have been enough to keep him from winning a second term.


----------



## Professionalgirl

Wino said:


> While CV-19 has been terrible for the nation and the world it did help to prevent Trump from being reelected and showed the world what a truly despicable human being he is/was will always be. He will remain a PITA until his demise, but I'm hopeful he will never become president again and will actually spend some time in prison for his crimes against this nation and it's people.


Absolutely Wino! Just recently the Republican party ordered the Covid-19 restrictions and mask wearing lifted on all business on April 8th despite the CDC health secretary's warning, and BTW that's on my my husbands Birthday! What are the republicans doing??? 

The case count is already rising again all because people heard the word lift restrictions on mask wearing already! Just because there are vaccines available doesn't mean its safe to gather!!


----------



## Johnny b

Professionalgirl said:


> Absolutely Wino! Just recently the Republican party ordered the Covid-19 restrictions and mask wearing lifted on all business on April 8th despite the CDC health secretary's warning, and BTW that's on my my husbands Birthday! What are the republicans doing???
> 
> The case count is already rising again all because people heard the word lift restrictions on mask wearing already! Just because there are vaccines available doesn't mean its safe to gather!!


In the crazy state of our current politics, the two parties seem to focus on angles of opposition in order to gather increased support.
Their job description tilts towards getting elected/re-elected and less on legislative/fiduciary responsibilities.
If one presents a rational solution, it's not necessarily acceptable to the other party.

BTW:
Tell your husband......Johnny b says 'Happy Birthday'


----------



## Wino

Texas mandate goes bye bye this coming Wednesday March 10. We have the three stooges at the top, all republican Trump acolytes and idiots. We're already seen a plateau and upward turn in CV19 cases before the order to drop mask requirements. Guv. Abbott says people "know what to do and don't need government telling them they should wear mask!" - with stupid leading, it can only get worse. People, like corporations, will do what is best for them or their convenience, not others - I expect there will be altercations at stores over this. Trump and his followers have truly and deliberately injured this nation - possibly beyond redemption.


----------



## Johnny b

I suspect the Trumpies of TSG will take a lot out of context with this informative article, but....it's worth a read.

* Diplomats Warned of a Coronavirus Danger in Wuhan-2 Years Before the Outbreak *
https://news.yahoo.com/diplomats-warned-coronavirus-danger-wuhan-043020270.html


----------



## Professionalgirl

Johnny b said:


> In the crazy state of our current politics, the two parties seem to focus on angles of opposition in order to gather increased support.
> Their job description tilts towards getting elected/re-elected and less on legislative/fiduciary responsibilities.
> If one presents a rational solution, it's not necessarily acceptable to the other party.
> 
> BTW:
> Tell your husband......Johnny b says 'Happy Birthday'


Thanks John for the Birthday wishes. 

I don't believe opposition works because no one pays attention. They just place a false sense of security into quick fixes like a treatment or vaccine. I believe in the old saying "Don't count your chickens before they hatch," Meaning they may not all hatch just like the vaccine protection may not pan out as anticipated.


----------



## Johnny b

Professionalgirl said:


> Thanks John for the Birthday wishes.
> 
> I don't believe opposition works because no one pays attention. They just place a false sense of security into quick fixes like a treatment or vaccine. I believe in the old saying "Don't count your chickens before they hatch," Meaning they may not all hatch just like the vaccine protection may not pan out as anticipated.





> the vaccine protection may not pan out as anticipated


Indeed.
With variants being found that are more communicable and thought to be more deadly, comments by scientists imply an almost never ending series of mutations and a need to reformulate vaccines to address those changes.
Like influenza, we'll probably windup, over time, with cocktail shots to cover the strains prevalent and address predictions.
The first influenza vaccine was developed in the late 1930's.
People still get the flu and some do die and that's after 80+ years of scientific study and development.

While medical science is far and away more efficient than that of the 1930's, discovery has only recently begun and there's obviously a lot to learn.

A wise person would be considering masks and social distancing as a general pattern of their everyday lives.
A wise person would get the Covid-19 shots.

Notice I posted 'wise'?

With extremist politics, cults and anti-vaxxers prevalent, It just makes it that much more difficult to 'live' with that disease.


----------



## Couriant

SeanLaurence said:


> That is an interesting hypothetical: If it were not for Covid, would he have won a second term? There were not that many votes between Trump and Biden in the 3 key states.


Hmm that would depend on why people switch sides. Putting people in places they shouldn't have been, trying to disrupt mail in ballots, pulling out of international deals (Paris Accord, Iran Deal, etc) and the fact he has spouted falsehoods left, right, and center and only people with more than half a brain could see it... I think Covid was the icing on the cake to get him removed.


----------



## Johnny b

Not a surprise.

*Trump officials bragged about pressuring CDC to alter Covid reports, emails reveal  *
https://www.cnbc.com/2021/04/09/tru...dc-to-alter-covid-reports-emails-reveal-.html

Not even a surprise evidence was left, to their intentions.



> "Our investigation has shown that Trump Administration officials engaged in a persistent pattern of political interference in the nation's public health response to the coronavirus pandemic, overruling and bullying scientists and making harmful decisions that allowed the virus to spread more rapidly," said subcommittee Chairman Rep. James Clyburn, D-S.C.
> 
> Clyburn accused former White House Covid-19 advisor Dr. Scott Atlas of advocating for "policies that would allow the virus to spread widely among many Americans."


What is bizarre is.......the influence probably had more of a negative impact on those that believed the Trump lies. They would have exposed themselves to infection to a greater degree.
Bizarre, but that's what cults do.
Even more bizarre is their denial of being cultists.

I don't recognize American culture any more.
It's gotten strange:


----------



## valis

Had to hit the bank today and cant stop thinking about how if i wore a facemask, sunglasses, and a ball cap into a bank 10 years ago the outcome would have been radically different


----------



## SeanLaurence

valis said:


> Had to hit the bank today and cant stop thinking about how if i wore a facemask, sunglasses, and a ball cap into a bank 10 years ago the outcome would have been radically different


I am sure you wrote that in jest. I have to think that most people take their hat and sunglasses off when they go inside a bank. 
The other side of that is 10 years ago very few people had cell phone cameras at the ready to record your getaway.


----------



## valis

Nope wrote it in sooth....kid was decked out identically (except had a Mavs cap...big Doncic fan) My literal thought was this was a scene from a bank heist flick from the 80's.

But no, not in jest at all.


----------



## Wino

Try it all while concealed carry - quite the rush!


----------



## valis

Of course....we do live in Texas after all....handguns are the prize in happy meals down here lol


----------



## MisterEd51

Couriant said:


> Looks like there will be another booster shot to help with the delta variant. At least that's what Moderna said?


It's too early to talk about a booster shot. The delta variant has already peaked in the U.K. It will probably be a wait and see in the U.S. until they see if the delta variant peaks there also.

Edit by Administrator Cookiegal: Note that the post quoted was made in a thread in the Personal Announcements forum and was transferred to this thread along with the posts that followed for controversial discussion. Link to original quote:

https://forums.techguy.org/threads/covid-19-vaccine-shot.1260391/post-9827762


----------



## Johnny b

MisterEd51 said:


> It's too early to talk about a booster shot. The delta variant has already peaked in the U.K. It will probably be a wait and see in the U.S. until they see if the delta variant peaks there also.


Sincerely, that's not for you to decide and the situation in the UK is not the same as the US.
The UK has a higher rate of the fully vaccinated.

And waiting for a pandemic to peak before addressing it doesn't seem logical.


----------



## MisterEd51

Johnny b said:


> Sincerely, that's not for you to decide and the situation in the UK is not the same as the US.
> The UK has a higher rate of the fully vaccinated.
> 
> And waiting for a pandemic to peak before addressing it doesn't seem logical.


What do mean waiting for the pandemic to peak? In the U.S. new COVID-19 cases peaked in January, 2021 and deaths peaked in February 2021. Right now the delta variant is causing a relatively small increase in new cases. There have little no no increase in deaths.

You are right. The situation in the U.S and U.K. are different. Right now the new cases in the U.K. peaked 10 days ago. Nobody knows when these new cases in the U.S. will peak or how high the peak will be. Even if they started today it would take at least 2 months to roll out and give a booster shot. By then the new cases may have subsided to pre-delta variant levels. Also what if in a few months another new variant comes along? Then what should we do? Minimally we would have to test the original vaccines and boosters against the new variant and then a few months decide whether we needed new vaccines and boosters. In any even it may be a no win situation until enough people are vaccinated and herd immunity is reached.


----------



## Johnny b

> It's too early to talk about a booster shot. The delta variant has already peaked in the U.K.* It will probably be a wait and see in the U.S. until they see if the delta variant peaks there also.*





> What do mean waiting for the pandemic to peak?


You posted it, not I.



> You are right. The situation in the U.S and U.K. are different.


Indeed. And you skipped over the issue of vaccination rates.
In the US, States with the lowest vaccination rates seem to be considered at the greatest risk to the Delta variant.
Knowing the typical mass media outlet might offend you, I chose this one, but it's mostly the same at most news sites:

* Low vaccination rates, Delta variant fuel surge in new COVID-19 cases across the South *
https://www.tennessean.com/story/ne...ant-fuel-surge-cases-across-south/7967943002/



> For months it felt like life had returned to normal. COVID-19 vaccines were readily available and as a result new case numbers were falling nationally.
> 
> But that sense of optimism has faded across the country as new cases linked to the highly infectious Delta variant are on the rise and disproportionately affecting unvaccinated populations.
> 
> It's a precarious situation across several Southern states where health workers continue to battle rampant vaccine hesitancy and misinformation, resulting in some of the lowest vaccination rates in the country.


When/if the booster is offered, I will be taking it.
And imo, it's worth knowing of the situation and discussing how to address it before it peaks.
Of course, it does take as much as several weeks to become effective, and it won't help the infected.....it's a vaccine, not a cure.
But masks and social distancing is a good idea, also.


----------



## Johnny b

And of course, it's also a good idea to be prepared in case there is another deadly Covid-19 variant in the future.
Do we wait for it to peak, or do the science and prepare much the same way it's done for what we've become accustomed to...seasonal influenza?

I take a flu shot every fall.
Do you think the public should wait till they get sick?


----------



## Cookiegal

Note that the last few posts have been transferred to this thread in Controversial Topics for discussion as they didn't suit the original thread in the Personal Announcements forum.


----------



## Johnny b

MisterEd, here's something to ponder while you wait for that Delta variant peak.

Note: the article appears on a Fox news site.

* Delta variant viral load 1,000 times higher than original coronavirus strain *
https://www.foxla.com/news/delta-va...times-higher-than-original-coronavirus-strain



> The fast-spreading delta variant of the novel coronavirus has been gaining traction worldwide since it was first detected in India, and now researchers may have an idea of why: Its viral load is 1,000 times higher than the original strain of the virus.
> 
> The delta variant is a mutated version of the novel coronavirus that spreads more easily than other strains. It now accounts for an estimated 83% of COVID-19 cases in the United States as it continues to surge largely among unvaccinated populations, officials said.
> 
> ......the delta variant can replicate at a much faster rate than the original strain, making the mutation much more infectious, according to the study.


That was posted 6 days ago.
But now there is more to that story.
It's now being reported vaccinated people are at risk for a low level Delta infection and can also spread the Delta variant.

https://www.npr.org/sections/health...ce-for-vaccinated-people-including-in-schools

It's looking like the gift that keeps on giving.

And you really think we should wait for a peak to decide what to do?
And what about the next Covid-19 peak?
Or the next after that?

( think 'gain of function' and what it really means in scientific context )


----------



## Wino

Just got call from brother in Waco - he has CV-19. His wife just got out of hospital with unrelated problems, but not yet tested for Covid, but bro suspects she's got it, too. Brother is 83, wife is 85. Both had Pfizer in late Feb. 2021. He was tested in clinic yesterday as was feeling bad and got the positive results this morning. Not in hospital, but says he feels like crap and was hoarse, coughing and sniffling.


----------



## Johnny b

Sad to hear that, Wayne.

My best to your family and hope they get well soon.


----------



## Cookiegal

I'm sorry to hear that too Wayne and hope they make a full recovery quickly.


----------



## Johnny b

MisterEd51 said:


> ..................... Nobody knows when these new cases in the U.S. will peak or how high the peak will be. Even if they started today it would take at least 2 months to roll out and give a booster shot. By then the new cases may have subsided to pre-delta variant levels. Also what if in a few months another new variant comes along? Then what should we do? Minimally we would have to test the original vaccines and boosters against the new variant and then a few months decide whether we needed new vaccines and boosters. In any even it may be a no win situation until enough people are vaccinated and herd immunity is reached.
> ..................................





> Even if they started today it would take at least 2 months to roll out and give a booster shot.


Do you understand what the term 'booster shot' entails?
This isn't a trick question
Let me help you.
It's another shot of the vaccine.
Are you aware there is more supply than currently being used , largely because politics has entered the scene and elements of the population are following misinformation generated by politicians and news sources aligned with Trumplican philosophy, meaning, resist all expert advice in order to destroy the current government's attempts to successfully seek herd immunity ......with the least loss of life.
ie. Biden must fail.

Vaccine is going to waste as it's expiration dates expire.
Lots of examples here:
https://news.google.com/search?for=covid+vaccine+going+to+waste&hl=en-US&gl=US&ceid=US:en



> By then the new cases may have subsided to pre-delta variant levels.


Ah....the 'if' game.
And this is your rationale for not preparing for the future while facing a pandemic with a rapidly mutating virus?
A little critical thinking, MisterEd....please.
For decades, scientists and virologists have studied viral diseases and projected likely mutations and been able to formulate vaccines to meet the changes.

(edit: Comment removed, a wee bit of exaggeration lol ))

The process is called 'gain of function' and has nothing to do with the act of weaponizing virus.
Rand Paul misrepresented the intentions of the process and misled about Fauci's role.
Don't believe me......check out the context of the terms as it applies to medical research.
Let me help you again.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gain_of_function


> *Gain-of-function research* (*GoF research* or *GoFR*) is medical research that genetically alters an organism in a way that may enhance the biological functions of gene products. This may include an altered pathogenesis, transmissibility, or host range, i.e. the types of hosts that a microorganism can infect. This research is intended to reveal targets to better predict emerging infectious diseases and to develop vaccines and therapeutics. For example, influenza B can only infect humans and harbor seals.[1] Introducing a mutation that would allow influenza B to infect rabbits in a controlled laboratory situation would be considered a "gain of function" experiment as the virus did not previously have that function.[2][3] That type of experiment could then help reveal which parts of the virus are responsible for its host range, enabling the creation of antiviral medicines which block this function.[3]
> 
> In virology, gain-of-function research is employed with the intention of better understanding current and future pandemics.[4] In vaccine development, gain-of-function research is conducted in the hope of gaining a head start on a virus and being able to develop a vaccine or therapeutic before it emerges.


Can it be used illegally? Of course. That's why there is oversight.

But you didn't even consider usage of this tool.
You argue to wait for the peak and then argue it's then too late to do anything about it.



> Then what should we do? Minimally we would have to test the original vaccines and boosters against the new variant and then a few months decide whether we needed new vaccines and boosters.


See how silly and dangerous to a society that line of thinking can become with out consideration of how vaccines are generated to meet future mutations, like seasonal influenza, that we've become accustomed to?



> In any even it may be a no win situation until enough people are vaccinated and herd immunity is reached.


Let me ask you this....what the hell are you going to do when a mutated virus is immune to a current vaccine????
Simply watch the dying cycle all over again?

MisterEd, I hope you come back to address those points but I suspect you won't.
But they are points I felt needed to be addressed.


----------



## Johnny b

And now to make matters worse, Some states are cutting back on routine reports of daily cases and deaths.

How can a pandemic be addressed well without accurate and up to date data?

* States scale back virus reporting just as cases surge *
https://apnews.com/article/health-coronavirus-pandemic-f9c58c50f565e707be9bedfa9a82319e

Luck be with us because it certainly isn't about the smarts.


----------



## Johnny b

Luck?

Headline says a lot for Floridians and it's not good:

* Florida reports single-day increase of 21,683 new COVID-19 cases, most since start of pandemic *
https://www.local10.com/news/local/...-covid-19-cases-most-since-start-of-pandemic/



> On Saturday, the state reported 21,683 new cases, the highest one-day total since the pandemic began.
> 
> The state's positivity rate has also surged to 18.1 percent, and cases are rising among children.
> 
> The Florida Hospital Association reported more than 8,800 COVID-19 hospitalizations last week, and cases are also rising at children's hospitals.


It's all Biden's fault (  )
* Florida governor blocks school mask mandates, says parents can choose *
https://www.reuters.com/world/us/fl...rents-choice-mask-children-school-2021-07-30/

* Florida Gov. DeSantis invalidates COVID rules statewide: No need to police people 'at this point' *
https://www.tallahassee.com/story/n...signs-bill-limit-emergency-powers/4921768001/

And of course the Carlson mentality:

* Tucker: Democrats rode virus panic all the way to the White House *
https://www.foxnews.com/transcript/tucker-democrats-rode-virus-panic-all-the-way-to-the-white-house



> We're watching the lunatics in charge of our country spiral even deeper by the day into madness and as we watch that, we feel a duty on this show to keep track of their decline.
> 
> We do this to assemble a permanent historical record of the craziness, if only for the amusement of future generations


And that's just a small 'taste' of Trumplican insanity.

What?
No mention of Trump's Covid expert, the Voodoo priestess?
UV light bulbs up the fanny?
Clorox and Lysol injections?
Or those fish tank meds?

Yeah, all funny till the dying kept raging on. 

So let's do a 'Carlson' and blame it on Biden <sarcasm>


----------



## Johnny b

A bit more on the defacto Covid superspreader, Ron DeSantis:

* Florida Gov. Ron DeSantis signs order that would strip schools of funding for imposing a mask mandate for students *
https://www.businessinsider.com/desantis-signs-bill-block-school-mask-mandates-2021-7



> Florida Gov. Ron DeSantis on Friday signed an order prohibiting schools in the state from mandating masks.
> Florida schools that implement a mask mandate run the risk of losing state funding.
> The move came days after the CDC recommended that students and staff mask up when they return to classes.
> 
> "We think that's the most fair way to do it," DeSantis said Friday.......


In what way is it fair to impose the risk of infection and death on any human being, let alone children?

From the acceptance of an ex-President leading a failed insurrection to mandates that put school children at risk, there is something terribly wrong within our society.


----------



## Johnny b

This article is long and worth consideration :

*The COVID culture war: At what point should personal freedom yield to the common good? *
https://www.usatoday.com/story/news...-pits-liberty-against-common-good/5432614001/

Why would a rational human being, not want to willingly act in a manner to preserve their own lives and the lives others?

Suicide by cult?


----------



## Couriant

I know AZ is not doing better but this is ridiculous









Just add to the misery of my 1mo PTO/vacation…


----------



## Johnny b

Sad stories being told too often that never should have happened.....demonstrating that politics and reality are often in conflict.

* Texas GOP Official Mocked COVID Five Days Before He Died of Virus *
https://www.thedailybeast.com/h-sco...gop-mocked-covid-days-before-he-died-of-virus


----------



## Wino

Email from my Bro - wife positive for CV19, too. Both home quarantine for 10 days. Said like a real nasty cold or flu. Good they had the vax, but at their age, still not good.


----------



## Johnny b

Again, best wishes for a quick and complete recovery.


----------



## Johnny b

DeSantos and Florida in the news.

* Florida in revolt as COVID cases spike, DeSantis rejects health measures *
https://arstechnica.com/science/202...ida-spurs-pro-mask-uprising-against-desantis/

Summed up....it's about right-wing politics overriding the health of the public and concerns of an out of control pandemic in Fla.

It's a sequel to the early days of Trump's pandemic failures.


----------



## Wino

We can only hope for an exacta that his lack of response helps prevent him taking Florida in next election as it did in preventing DJT from a second term, then Florida turning blue.🤪 From latest news, it's their voters/followers suffering the most in Florida! Texas, too!😤


----------



## Johnny b

I get a lot of GOP literature and polls in the mail.

I wish I hadn't been so rash with yesterday's propaganda.
It hit the shredder after skimming it.

The envelope was addressed as from DeSantos.
It was a poll sent in conjunction with the GOP.

I've read of DeSantos believing he has a potential chance in the next Presidential election.
Looks like the GOP is testing the waters.

What a catastrophe that would be if he won.


----------



## Couriant

Wino said:


> We can only hope for an exacta that his lack of response helps prevent him taking Florida in next election as it did in preventing DJT from a second term, then Florida turning blue.🤪 From latest news, it's their voters/followers suffering the most in Florida! Texas, too!😤


I would hope that the Ted Cruz debacle would help switching to blue


----------



## Wino

I've been entertaining and obtaining quotes for new windows and siding for entire 50 YR. old home. None of the estimators had vax. They had to mask while in my home or near me. One said he had Covid in Dec. 2020 so didn't need shots. Unfortunately for him, he would have been my choice company to do both jobs - but I will not spend $45K with any company too stupid to insure their sales people are safe and damn sure won't have 6 or more workers in and around my house without mask and proof of vax and recent CV test. So they lost a job and I'll have to postpone for another year.


----------



## Cookiegal

As of September 1st we will have to present our vaccination passport to get access to non-essential services like restaurants, bars, gyms, etc. I'm happy about that. 

They are "considering" making the vaccination mandatory for health care workers which they should but not for workers in other industries and that, I don't understand. In other words, you will have to be fully vaccinated to eat in a restaurant but not to work in one. Go figure.


----------



## Johnny b

With the Delta variant spreading on a massive scale, Ted Cruz and Rand Paul are looking to make it impossible for mandates to be issued or adheared to, during a period of national crisis.

* Ted Cruz calls for 'zero' covid-19 mandates, while Rand Paul urges defiance amid delta variant surge *
https://news.yahoo.com/ted-cruz-calls-zero-covid-133500026.html



> As a resurgent coronavirus is forcing states to address soaring cases and hospitalizations, Republican Sens. Ted Cruz (Tex.) and Rand Paul (Ky.) denounced health mandates against the virus at a time when the United States recorded its highest single-day number of new cases since January.


They obviously have no shame for what they do.


----------



## Johnny b

We send military forces around the world to confront national security issues but for some politicians, saving US citizens with a medical response is off limits.

:down:


----------



## Couriant

I would have thought that first responders would be more vaccinated than what has been mentioned here, front desk or in the field. I can only pray that this will spark more to get the vaccine.

RIP to those officers.
https://www.abc15.com/news/coronavi...e-officers-pass-away-due-to-covid-in-one-week


----------



## Johnny b

After DeSantis tried to hide the severity of Covid-19 infections in Florida, it only graphs out looking more severe, imo.
( and yes, the graph now represents the change in the way Florida now reports the Covid pandemic )

A sane person should be wondering why the Fla State legislature hasn't brought actions to remove the sitting Governor as a threat to life and liberty.
He's in effect legislating the advancement of a pandemic. For, not against the spread of it.

The latest Johns Hopkins Covid Map:










Perhaps the whole state should be quarantined for the protection of the rest of the US.


----------



## Couriant

I just came back from FL (St. Pete) and basically no one was wearing masks and restaurants were not distancing people. The mentality is still not right.

my father in law can’t move to a new facility because of a lock down (ie someone has a positive result)… his current one also had a positivity case too …


----------



## Johnny b

Couriant said:


> I just came back from FL (St. Pete) and basically no one was wearing masks and restaurants were not distancing people. The mentality is still not right.
> 
> my father in law can't move to a new facility because of a lock down (ie someone has a positive result)… his current one also had a positivity case too …





> The mentality is still not right.


This is what I do not understand.

Being restricted by a disease is not a condition or trait of freedom.
Being dead is not the condition or status of freedom. It's a lock. No options.

Why does a right to not wear a mask, trump voluntary common sense for survival?


----------



## Wino

To paraphrase St. Ronnie, "There you go again with the rhetorical question!!"


----------



## Bastiat

Johnny b said:


> trump voluntary common sense


He doesn't have it voluntarily or otherwise.


----------



## Johnny b

LOL!


----------



## Johnny b

From an article about Jennifer Aniston cutting off her un-vaccinated friends.
Context Covid-19 and the delta variant.

https://www.vanityfair.com/style/20...ed-people-out-of-her-life-instyle-coronavirus

*" What doesn't kill you mutates and tries again. "*


----------



## Couriant

Some news I saw:

No pediatric beds for one county - 'your child will have to wait'

AZ schools revolts


----------



## Johnny b

Notice: this link is cutoff by a subscription offer, but there is much information and serious projections to consider leading up to it.

Reality:

* The World May Never Reach Herd Immunity Against Covid-19 *
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/arti...ay-never-reach-herd-immunity-against-covid-19


----------



## Couriant

https://www.npr.org/2021/08/14/1027663917/rsv-covid-children

the young folkneed to be worried now. I'm not at my computer to check but I am more worried now for the kids going to school


----------



## Johnny b

This could have gone to the 'Nutter' thread, but the focus is about the transmission of Covid-19.

* Poll: More unvaccinated Americans blame vaccinated Americans for the Delta surge than blame themselves *
https://news.yahoo.com/poll-more-un...ta-surge-than-blame-themselves-194934930.html

Sickness and death are all the fault of those that want to live. 
Yeah, this article could just as easily be considered 'Nutter' material.


----------



## Wino

Local news article this morning stating new covid patients rueful they had not gotten shots - excuses went from just lazy, too busy and the best - too hard to get a shot - which hasn't been the case for several months now. In fact some vax going to waste as expiring cause people won't get shots. Walk-ins available everywhere in town in drug stores, Wally, Sams, Costco, and normal vax stations set up at beginning of pandemic. 🤬My Pfizer booster shot set for this coming Tuesday took me all of 3-5 minutes to set appt. on line at local grocery store pharmacy.


----------



## Johnny b

Why take a vaccine shot when you can make your Governor's political backer wealthier by getting Covid-19?

Florida has the answer.

* DeSantis top donor invests in COVID drug governor promotes *
https://apnews.com/article/joe-bide...n=SocialFlow&utm_medium=AP&utm_source=Twitter



> Citadel, a Chicago-based hedge fund, has $15.9 million in shares of Regeneron Pharmaceutical Inc., according to filings with the U.S. Securities and Exchange Commission. Citadel CEO Ken Griffin has donated $10.75 million to a political committee that supports DeSantis - $5.75 million in 2018 and $5 million last April.


And, of course, threats follow from the DeSantis administration:

*Ron DeSantis Bashes AP Over Story On Touting Of COVID-19 Treatment Linked To Donor *
https://www.huffpost.com/entry/desantis-hannity-ap-regeneron-story_n_612470e8e4b0fc6bf9d0360a



> DeSantis ripped the article in a Fox News interview with Sean Hannity as "clearly a partisan hit piece," and an example of AP "trying to create a false narrative."
> ..........
> 
> AP also complained last Friday to Twitter, condemning what it called "abusive behavior" by DeSantis' Press Secretary Christina Pushaw against its reporter Brendan Farrington.
> 
> Pushaw appeared to sic her 22,000 followers on AP and Farrington with a tweet directing them to "drag them" over a link to the Regeneron story. The message resulted in threats and other online abuse, AP notified Twitter, which subsequently suspended Pushaw from her account for 12 hours.
> Pushaw also threatened to put Farrington "on blast" if he didn't modify his story.





> .....DeSantis defended Pushaw, saying AP "deserved blowback."
> 
> DeSantis told Hannity: "The AP knew what they were doing. They wanted to do a political hit on me ... And then they had the temerity to act like they were the victim when they got called out on their hit piece."
> 
> He didn't mention Ken Griffin, nor did he discuss any potential conflict of interest in constantly touting Regeneron.


Who does DeSantis think he is, Donald J Trump?


----------



## Johnny b

An old saying, A picture is worth a thousand words.










( unless the obvious is denied )


----------



## Johnny b

An interesting opinion article, with data.

* Why Some White Evangelical Republicans Are So Opposed To The COVID-19 Vaccine *
https://fivethirtyeight.com/feature...icans-are-so-opposed-to-the-covid-19-vaccine/



> When my classmates were hospitalized with COVID-19, there were repeated calls for prayers and proclamations that God would provide healing. When they died, those prayer requests became comments that "God called [them] home."
> The belief that God controls everything that happens in the world is a core tenet of evangelicalism.............
> .............. white evangelicals were more likely than any other Christian group to believe that God would punish nations for the sins of some of its citizens and that natural disasters were a sign from God. What's more, other research from the Journal of Psychology and Theology has found that some evangelical Christians rationalize illnesses like cancer as God's will.
> ............
> Complicating matters further, the pandemic also fits neatly into "end times" thinking - the belief that the end of the world and God's ultimate judgment is coming soon.


While the above discussion is obviously a concern about religious beliefs, it should be noted it seems much like a cult involving death. Only non believers are going to die from Covid-19, it's God's will, so prove you are a 'believer' by exposing yourself to the disease and surviving it.
IMO, that's a death cult.


----------



## Wino

Being an atheist, I have no one to blame nor save my butt from/for my ills, good or bad decisions, life style, health, actions of any nature that are within MY control. I do blame outside influencers over which I have no control - like our idiot Texas guv and ex-prez DJT - which I do with great relish and abandon - my hypocrisy knows no bounds !!


----------



## Johnny b

Wino said:


> Being an atheist, I have no one to blame nor save my butt from/for my ills, good or bad decisions, life style, health, actions of any nature that are within MY control. I do blame outside influencers over which I have no control - like our idiot Texas guv and ex-prez DJT - which I do with great relish and abandon - my hypocrisy knows no bounds !!


IMO, that's not hypocrisy.
We live in situations that most of us have little to no control over.
'We' as in...individuals.
But in groups, that 'We' becomes a means of being influencers.
Some present positives, ethics and morals, to live by.
And then there are groups that present negatives with in a society as they try to dominate it.
And of course, there are those as individuals that simply embrace the live and let live concept.

I suspect all 'groups' of people have elements of that negativity.
Human nature.

The element the article addresses doesn't seem very Christian like to me.
More like an association seeking domination over others.
And politics is a characteristic of that association.
And in their madness, have become a dangerous death cult that may be killing off their own 'kind' at a higher rate than their intended targets of aggression.

Still, too many innocents suffer needlessly from their madness.


----------



## MisterEd51

Wino said:


> They were not booing their hero Trump. They were booing the vax.


The problem is a lot of people don't trust anyone in the government or in authority with regard to COVID-19 any more. You can't blame them. There has been too much misinformation, lying, and grandstanding by people that normally people would have trusted. That was bad enough but now some people in authority want to force people to be vaccinated. That is over the line and is why a lot of people don't trust what people in authority say anymore. I don't blame them.

The problem is too many politicians are too eager to use their executive authority to make ill conceived mandates with little or no thought about the consequences. Because of this a lot of people have lost confidence in the government and what they say.

Our constitutional rights are much too important for people to just roll over and give them up. If we don't defend them we will lose them.


----------



## Johnny b

MisterEd51 said:


> The problem is a lot of people don't trust anyone in the government or in authority with regard to COVID-19 any more. You can't blame them. There has been too much misinformation, lying, and grandstanding by people that normally people would have trusted. That was bad enough but now some people in authority want to force people to be vaccinated. That is over the line and is why a lot of people don't trust what people in authority say anymore. I don't blame them.
> 
> The problem is too many politicians are too eager to use their executive authority to make ill conceived mandates with little or no thought about the consequences. Because of this a lot of people have lost confidence in the government and what they say.
> 
> Our constitutional rights are much too important for people to just roll over and give them up. If we don't defend them we will lose them.


Blah, blah, blah.
You are forced to do many things and yet make no complaints until it becomes a politically driven agenda, one driven by Trump supporters.
There is a massive network of laws in place to protect our society, from air quality to seat belts to which side of the highway you can legally drive on.
They range from the Federal level down to local laws.

And here you are complaining about your 'right' to let society die in a most hideous way. 
And your BS is astounding.
The Constitution does not give you the right to impose death.

I've noticed Trump supporters seem to know more about breaking the Constitution than supporting it. I even watched that in action last January 6th.

Your post should be in the debate thread here:
https://forums.techguy.org/threads/coronavirus-spread-to-eu-usa.1239391/

As should be my response to it!


----------



## Wino

MisterEd51 said:


> The problem is a lot of people don't trust anyone in the government or in authority with regard to COVID-19 any more. You can't blame them. There has been too much misinformation, lying, and grandstanding by people that normally people would have trusted. That was bad enough but now some people in authority want to force people to be vaccinated. That is over the line and is why a lot of people don't trust what people in authority say anymore. I don't blame them.
> 
> The problem is too many politicians are too eager to use their executive authority to make ill conceived mandates with little or no thought about the consequences. Because of this a lot of people have lost confidence in the government and what they say.
> 
> Our constitutional rights are much too important for people to just roll over and give them up. If we don't defend them we will lose them.


Yep. Four years of Trump lying about most everything is enough to turn off most people's trust in government. Throw in an insurrection 1/6 was just berries on the whip cream.🤬 Your rights end when it affects my rights or life. No one enters my home unvaxed or unmasked - so I guess you're off the Thanksgiving dinner list.😤 Living under the thumb of a mini me Trumpy Bear in Texas (Greg Abbott the Ignorant) is cruel and unusual punishment.


----------



## Wino

A worthy read.
https://www.cnn.com/2021/08/28/us/older-adults-covid-vaccine/index.html?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed:+rss/cnn_latest+(RSS:+CNN+-+Most+Recent)

Snippet:


> So why exactly are older adults so much more vaccinated than younger folks?
> Interviews with several doctors, CDC data and polling from the Kaiser Family Foundation show five main reasons for the age difference: their earlier eligibility, the virus's exponentially more severe impact on older people, *their wiser perspective on life*, their increased access to the medical system due to Medicare, *and their functional immunity to vaccine misinformation*.


Apparently, bolded above, does not work well for Trumpy Bear followers.


----------



## Johnny b

Wino said:


> A worthy read.
> https://www.cnn.com/2021/08/28/us/older-adults-covid-vaccine/index.html?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed:+rss/cnn_latest+(RSS:+CNN+-+Most+Recent)
> 
> ....................


Indeed.

from the article:


> Another reason older adults are more vaccinated stems from their personal experiences with vaccines. They remember the days when infectious diseases like polio and measles sickened and killed classmates, friends and family members.


I remember the polio scare very well.
I remember several older classmates in public school getting it, and getting the polio shots myself.
I remember as a young child, measles and mumps and the vaccines to not get sick from them.

Once a vaccine is tested and shown to be beneficial, I don't understand any argument against it other than a pre-existing condition that precludes the individual taking it.
So why the hell would anyone take an animal de-wormer instead of the Covid-19 vaccine? Or
Why refuse the vaccine using the excuse the government makes them? So far, it hasn't.


----------



## Johnny b

MisterEd51 said:


> The problem is a lot of people don't trust anyone in the government or in authority with regard to COVID-19 any more. You can't blame them. There has been too much misinformation, lying, and grandstanding by people that normally people would have trusted. That was bad enough but now some people in authority want to force people to be vaccinated. That is over the line and is why a lot of people don't trust what people in authority say anymore. I don't blame them.
> 
> The problem is too many politicians are too eager to use their executive authority to make ill conceived mandates with little or no thought about the consequences. Because of this a lot of people have lost confidence in the government and what they say.
> 
> Our constitutional rights are much too important for people to just roll over and give them up. If we don't defend them we will lose them.





> The problem is too many politicians are too eager to use their executive authority to make ill conceived mandates with little or no thought about the consequences.


Please list the ill conceived mandates and their negative consequences so I know what you're addressing.



> Because of this a lot of people have lost confidence in the government and what they say.


That's been going on probably since early man chose a tribal leader.
Nothing new.
But explain why that would lead people to deny the early intrusion of Covid-19, deny the severity of Covid-19 and deny the need for masking, social distancing and vaccines.
Data exists and shows why. So why deny reality?
So far, politics seems a leading motivator. Add some religion to 'spice' it up.
Add followers of Qanon.
And we've wound up with a powerful death cult.



> Our constitutional rights are much too important for people to just roll over and give them up. If we don't defend them we will lose them.


Please explain....how is risking infection and death a defense of the Constitution while the instigators behind this 'movement' are active in sedition and insurrection?
How is attacking a society a defense of it?
It's illogical.
Your argument makes no sense.

Unless that's what you want to do?



> There has been too much misinformation, lying, and grandstanding by people that normally people would have trusted.


The Trump administration was never trusted.
Trump was never trusted as a real estate developer using a mob lawyer.
Trump was never trusted by normal people lol!
But he was trusted as an emissary of God by some people 
(sigh! cults  lol )



> That is over the line and is why a lot of people don't trust what people in authority say anymore. I don't blame them.


It appears you have believed someone in authority or you wouldn't have come to those conclusions.
Maybe, just maybe......it's your choices of authority that's at fault?


----------



## MisterEd51

All this vitriol makes no sense. The only thing I can think of is some people are lashing out because they are embarrassed because they voted for somebody that is incompetent.


----------



## Johnny b

MisterEd51 said:


> All this vitriol makes no sense. The only thing I can think of is some people are lashing out because they are embarrassed because they voted for somebody that is incompetent.


 I didn't think you'd have much of a rebuttal.

But then, there really isn't one you could make other than the whining you are displaying.

I asked, and you avoided explanations for your obviously bogus claims.
Logically, I can't blame you for that lol!

At least make something up 
This forum needs some added humor


----------



## Couriant

Lol missing Steppen Johnny?


----------



## Wino

MisterEd51 said:


> All this vitriol makes no sense. The only thing I can think of is some people are lashing out because they are embarrassed because they voted for somebody that is incompetent.


You nailed it. Tell us how it feels to vote for an incompetent, as Trump surely fits that description.


----------



## Johnny b

Couriant said:


> Lol missing Steppen Johnny?


Could it be?

Nah. His grammar is much better


----------



## Johnny b

Well....back to my movie lol.


----------



## valis

MisterEd51 said:


> All this vitriol makes no sense. The only thing I can think of is some people are lashing out because they are embarrassed because they voted for somebody that is incompetent.


That makes no sense. This is about the virus not who is in office. Constitutional rights shouldnt even figure here; just focus on preserving the whole society REGARDLESS of who you voted for. Mask the heck up.


----------



## MisterEd51

valis said:


> That makes no sense. This is about the virus not who is in office. Constitutional rights shouldnt even figure here; just focus on preserving the whole society REGARDLESS of who you voted for. Mask the heck up.


Preserving the whole society!!! Who ever said masking up would do that? That sounds made up.

I only wear a mask where I am required to. Right now that is only doctors offices and hospitals. I go without a mask everywhere else.

BTW, if you really believed what you said you would wear a mask everywhere including at home. You do don't you?


----------



## Johnny b

MisterEd51 said:


> Preserving the whole society!!! Who ever said masking up would do that? That sounds made up.
> 
> I only wear a mask where I am required to. Right now that is only doctors offices and hospitals. I go without a mask everywhere else.
> 
> BTW, if you really believed what you said you would wear a mask everywhere including at home. You do don't you?





> Preserving the whole society!!! Who ever said masking up would do that? That sounds made up.


Indeed it sounds made up....you just made it up.
This is what you think is 'debate'?
Or even a 'discussion'?
Making up exaggerations and presenting them as factual claims?
I'm calling BS on you!



> I only wear a mask where I am required to.


And what is the criteria for that status?
The law?
Self preservation?
Respect for others?

An answer would nice rather than BS avoidance for a change.



> Right now that is only doctors offices and hospitals. I go without a mask everywhere else.


Amazing. Spoken as if property rights were a thing of the past.
I remember when property rights were a big issue with Republicans.



> BTW, if you really believed what you said you would wear a mask everywhere including at home. You do don't you?


OKay :up: Thanks for the humor lol!
Obviously you don't even know why masks are a safety benefit.
They are filters.
It's about rebreathing shared air with other people, silly.
If you aren't rebreathing shared air, there is no threat of infection being transferred by aerosolization of the virus.
Duh!


----------



## Johnny b

And he's gone again with out comment.
Back to my movie


----------



## MisterEd51

Johnny b said:


> Please list the ill conceived mandates and their negative consequences so I know what you're addressing.
> 
> That's been going on probably since early man chose a tribal leader.
> 
> Nothing new.
> 
> But explain why that would lead people to deny the early intrusion of Covid-19, deny the severity of Covid-19 and deny the need for masking, social distancing and vaccines.
> 
> Data exists and shows why. So why deny reality?
> 
> So far, politics seems a leading motivator. Add some religion to 'spice' it up.
> 
> Add followers of Qanon.
> 
> And we've wound up with a powerful death cult.
> 
> Please explain....how is risking infection and death a defense of the Constitution while the instigators behind this 'movement' are active in sedition and insurrection?
> 
> How is attacking a society a defense of it?
> 
> It's illogical.
> 
> Your argument makes no sense.
> 
> Unless that's what you want to do?
> 
> The Trump administration was never trusted.
> 
> Trump was never trusted as a real estate developer using a mob lawyer.
> 
> Trump was never trusted by normal people lol!
> 
> But he was trusted as an emissary of God by some people
> 
> (sigh! cults  lol )
> 
> It appears you have believed someone in authority or you wouldn't have come to those conclusions.
> 
> Maybe, just maybe......it's your choices of authority that's at fault?


Apparently you have been watching too much MSNBC and CNN. The are openly shills for the Democrats. A day did not go by where they didn't criticize or attack Trump.

Trump took COVID-19 seriously early on and when he blocked flights from China was criticized by the Democrats who called him a xenophobe. Pelosi's response was to openly celebrate the Chinese New Year in public. At the time the Democrats were too busy impeaching Trump to worry about anything else.

It was Trump who created the plan called Warp Speed that combined the resources of the federal government and the private sector to come up with a vaccine(s) for COVID-19 in record time. When Trump said the vaccine would be available by November 2020 the Democrats called him delusional and crazy. When it did come out the Democrats publicly said there was no way they would take the vaccine because they didn't trust Trump. When no one was looking they quietly got vaccinated anyways.

Early on Dr. Fauci said masks were not necessary. It was only several months later that he said different.

It was Democrats who pushed the idea that masks should even be worn outside. That was never proven to be necessary by anyone. Unfortunately, there are a lot of people that still believe that nonsense.

A few weeks I saw videos where Democrats took off their masks after they thought the camera was off. What a bunch of hypocrites. Apparently, they only believe in virtue signalling.

The Democrats would go a long way towards being trusted about what they say about COVID-19 if they started acting like they actually believed what want everyone else to believe and do.


----------



## valis

How can it be made up? Masks prevent transmission of the virus. Period. That is as solid a fact as when you step off a high place you go down.

Again; the virus is still around. If you want to assist getting rid of it start taking steps. And I dont mean bleating about your 'rights'. I mean get vaccinated, mask up, and wash yer hands. 

Or just sit back. If so please know you are part of the reason this is still around.


----------



## valis

Ed, I know you are very far from a stupid person; Ive talked to you in live chat Wednesdays (Johnny you should really join those...you too Wino). But this is a case of be part of the problem or be part of the solution. I dont see a lot of middle ground.


----------



## Johnny b

MisterEd51 said:


> Apparently you have been watching too much MSNBC and CNN. The are openly shills for the Democrats. A day did not go by where they didn't criticize or attack Trump.
> 
> Trump took COVID-19 seriously early on and when he blocked flights from China was criticized by the Democrats who called him a xenophobe. Pelosi's response was to openly celebrate the Chinese New Year in public. At the time the Democrats were too busy impeaching Trump to worry about anything else.
> 
> It was Trump who created the plan called Warp Speed that combined the resources of the federal government and the private sector to come up with a vaccine(s) for COVID-19 in record time. When Trump said the vaccine would be available by November 2020 the Democrats called him delusional and crazy. When it did come out the Democrats publicly said there was no way they would take the vaccine because they didn't trust Trump. When no one was looking they quietly got vaccinated anyways.
> 
> Early on Dr. Fauci said masks were not necessary. It was only several months later that he said different.
> 
> It was Democrats who pushed the idea that masks should even be worn outside. That was never proven to be necessary by anyone. Unfortunately, there are a lot of people that still believe that nonsense.
> 
> A few weeks I saw videos where Democrats took off their masks after they thought the camera was off. What a bunch of hypocrites. Apparently, they only believe in virtue signalling.
> 
> The Democrats would go a long way towards being trusted about what they say about COVID-19 if they started acting like they actually believed what want everyone else to believe and do.





> Apparently you have been watching too much MSNBC and CNN. The are openly shills for the Democrats. A day did not go by where they didn't criticize or attack Trump.


The topic is Covid-19 and why you don't seem to take the pandemic seriously.
Obviously a political issue with you rather than reality.



> Trump took COVID-19 seriously early on and when he blocked flights from China was criticized by the Democrats who called him a xenophobe.


And what does that have to do with your rejection of safety protocols?
Anyone can google the timeline of events, that include Trump's initial denial of the severity of the pandemic or his promises that Covid-19 would soon just magically disappear.



> It was Trump who created the plan called Warp Speed that combined the resources of the federal government and the private sector to come up with a vaccine(s) for COVID-19 in record time.


The leading vaccine manufacturer in the US, Pfizer, didn't take any Government Warp Speed development money. And the process mRNA was developed 20 years ago.
Moderna announced a potential vaccine long before any monies were handed out.
You can fool some people with your regurgitated BS, but it won't fly here.
Those facts were discussed at TSG.
I know because I referred to them long ago.



> When Trump said the vaccine would be available by November 2020 the Democrats called him delusional and crazy.


And this relates to what?

Democrats have called Trump delusional and crazy since his first day in office lol.
And mostly correct.



> When it did come out the Democrats publicly said there was no way they would take the vaccine because they didn't trust Trump. When no one was looking they quietly got vaccinated anyways.


Even if true (  ) what does that have to do with your position on masks, social distancing and getting the vaccine?
You again claim a political reason for your logic....which is illogical.

BTW, Trump had nothing to do with the actual development of the vaccines. Scientists and pharmaceuticals did.



> Early on Dr. Fauci said masks were not necessary. It was only several months later that he said different.


So what?
If you bothered to read, if you even can (  ) you'd come to realize I criticized the CDC and Fauci about the masks and challenged their position. I even suggested, while there was a shortage of masks, that even a bandanna would give a little protection and recommended them when nothing else was available.
The CDC and Fauci were in error. They restated their positions.
That doesn't make Alex Jones or barking mad dog Joe Imbriano experts or any YouTube video.



> It was Democrats who pushed the idea that masks should even be worn outside. That was never proven to be necessary by anyone. Unfortunately, there are a lot of people that still believe that nonsense.


Think Sturgis. Now considered a superspreader event.
Crowds of motorcyclists gathering outside often in crowded environment with out any precautions ( masks or social distancing )
Again, you imply politics is the issue. The issue is a disease that's easily transmissible.
And you seem in a state of denial.
'It's the Democrat's fault' I call BS 
It's the disease versus human activity.



> A few weeks I saw videos where Democrats took off their masks after they thought the camera was off. What a bunch of hypocrites. Apparently, they only believe in virtue signalling.
> 
> The Democrats would go a long way towards being trusted about what they say about COVID-19 if they started acting like they actually believed what want everyone else to believe and do.


What a lot of whining.
Manup and accept personal responsibilities.
It's what Republicans used to do.....a long time ago.
Apparently, Republicans aren't Republicans anymore, but as you well know, the descripter that's been banned in this forum.....is very accurate.


----------



## Johnny b

valis said:


> Ed, I know you are very far from a stupid person; Ive talked to you in live chat Wednesdays (Johnny you should really join those...you too Wino). But this is a case of be part of the problem or be part of the solution. I dont see a lot of middle ground.


You nailed it.
There is no middle ground that I can see.

Can't do the live chats.
I'll send you a private message.


----------



## MisterEd51

I'm am going to have to apologize. I forgot that Democrats think that:

Democrats are superior to everyone else
Republicans are a bunch of hicks and noobs
Trump and everyone that voted for him are dangerous 
Republicans are COVID-19 and mask deniers
Etc.
That means that it is a waste of time debating anyone else here because obviously I am too stupid to comprehend what any one else is saying.

Don't bother responding because I will no longer post on this thread.


----------



## valis

Okie doke your prerogative.

But I am not a democrat. More of an independant thinker.


----------



## Johnny b

MisterEd51 said:


> I'm am going to have to apologize. I forgot that Democrats think that:
> 
> Democrats are superior to everyone else
> Republicans are a bunch of hicks and noobs
> Trump and everyone that voted for him are dangerous
> Republicans are COVID-19 and mask deniers
> Etc.
> That means that it is a waste of time debating anyone else here because obviously I am too stupid to comprehend what any one else is saying.
> 
> Don't bother responding because I will no longer post on this thread.


You're just howling at the moon.
You weren't asked for an apology and I'm still a registered Republican.
My position, and I'm not ashamed of the descriptor, is 'never Trump'.

But from all the blather you've posted, all the avoidance of addressing the pandemic directly....you leave with out addressing challenges to your Covid-19 claims.

You once claimed you were a Democrat. IMO, hard to believe.
You now seem to claim to be a Republican. Or at least a Trump (shudder lol ) supporter.
IMO, while Trump obviously 'owns' the GOP, he's not really a Republican.
The GOP became the Party of Trump. Qanon, white supremacists, KKK, militant militias, fringe religious zealots, and a host of backers looking to score some serious loot. Oh, and some radicalized libertarians and don't forget the Tea Party faction.
That's not to say Democrats aren't nefarious, it just isn't their turn.

But that doesn't account for your lack of respect. 
You seem to think you can spout off unchallenged.
Elitism?
The Tucker Carlson syndrome?
I'm always amused by his quip....'What does that even mean'.
And then the BS flows. lol

But I digress (  )

I asked early on:
*" Please list the ill conceived mandates and their negative consequences so I know what you're addressing. "*

You never responded.
BTW, your example of Fauci and face masks was not a mandate. It was an request.
So you'll have to try harder in order to fool the forum.



> Don't bother responding because I will no longer post on this thread.


And where's the logic to that request? lol



> That means that it is a waste of time debating anyone else here because obviously I am too stupid to comprehend what any one else is saying.


Well.....you aren't responding to questions and challenges regarding claims you made about Covid-19 safety protocols.
You went off the deep end and straight into politics.
Personally, I just saw it as intentional avoidance. 
You weren't debating/defending the claims you introduced originally in Random.


----------



## Wino

Tripe begets tripe, no matter the politics. The points above of what Dems think of Reps. is fairly correct for to days TS'ers which have little in common with repubs of the past, more Jim Jonesy - as in Jan. 6, 2021 came close to being a Jonestown for people and a nation.


----------



## Johnny b

Wino said:


> Tripe begets tripe, no matter the politics. The points above of what Dems think of Reps. is fairly correct for to days TS'ers which have little in common with repubs of the past, more Jim Jonesy - as in Jan. 6, 2021 came close to being a Jonestown for people and a nation.


Indeed.

IMO, that scenario is still a possibility.
But with bullets rather than poison.
While not a majority, there's still enough support for sedition and insurrection to bring down our society.


----------



## Wino

> Tate Reeves Says Mississippians 'Less Scared' of COVID Because They 'Believe in Eternal Life'


Wino says - ignorance is bliss ! I also suspect Mississippians believe in the tooth fairy, Leprechauns, Peter Pan etal. 🤪


----------



## Johnny b

Wino said:


> Wino says - ignorance is bliss ! I also suspect Mississippians believe in the tooth fairy, Leprechauns, Peter Pan etal. 🤪


Trust me when I say, Mississippi has nothing on Ohio.

Old article, but how do you deal with this and how the hell did he get elected?

https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-new...ar-mask-because-he-says-it-dishonors-n1201106



> "This is the greatest nation on earth founded on Judeo-Christian Principles. One of those principles is that we are all created in the image and likeness of God. That image is seen the most by our face. I will not wear a mask," Rep. Nino Vitale, a Republican, wrote on Facebook. "That's the image of God right there, and I want to see it in my brothers and sisters."


----------



## Johnny b

MisterEd51 said:


> Apparently you have been watching too much MSNBC and CNN. The are openly shills for the Democrats. A day did not go by where they didn't criticize or attack Trump.
> 
> Trump took COVID-19 seriously early on and when he blocked flights from China was criticized by the Democrats who called him a xenophobe. Pelosi's response was to openly celebrate the Chinese New Year in public. At the time the Democrats were too busy impeaching Trump to worry about anything else.
> 
> It was Trump who created the plan called Warp Speed that combined the resources of the federal government and the private sector to come up with a vaccine(s) for COVID-19 in record time. When Trump said the vaccine would be available by November 2020 the Democrats called him delusional and crazy. When it did come out the Democrats publicly said there was no way they would take the vaccine because they didn't trust Trump. When no one was looking they quietly got vaccinated anyways.
> 
> Early on Dr. Fauci said masks were not necessary. It was only several months later that he said different.
> 
> It was Democrats who pushed the idea that masks should even be worn outside. That was never proven to be necessary by anyone. Unfortunately, there are a lot of people that still believe that nonsense.
> 
> A few weeks I saw videos where Democrats took off their masks after they thought the camera was off. What a bunch of hypocrites. Apparently, they only believe in virtue signalling.
> 
> The Democrats would go a long way towards being trusted about what they say about COVID-19 if they started acting like they actually believed what want everyone else to believe and do.


Translation: Democrats are the disease. 

More twisted reasoning from the ophthalmologist from Kentucky:

* Rand Paul claims scientists won't study horse deworming drug ivermectin's use as a potential COVID cure because of their 'hatred for Trump' *
https://news.yahoo.com/rand-paul-claims-scientists-wont-045732346.html

Statement from Merck, the producer of ivermectin.

https://www.merck.com/news/merck-statement-on-ivermectin-use-during-the-covid-19-pandemic/


> Merck (NYSE: MRK), known as MSD outside the United States and Canada, today affirmed its position regarding use of ivermectin during the COVID-19 pandemic. Company scientists continue to carefully examine the findings of all available and emerging studies of ivermectin for the treatment of COVID-19 for evidence of efficacy and safety. It is important to note that, to-date, our analysis has identified:
> 
> 
> No scientific basis for a potential therapeutic effect against COVID-19 from pre-clinical studies;
> No meaningful evidence for clinical activity or clinical efficacy in patients with COVID-19 disease, and;
> A concerning lack of safety data in the majority of studies.


The biggest flaw in Paul's claims is.......Trump is no longer President.
But Paul has been seen sympathetic to the goals of Trump, sedition and insurrection since losing that 2020 Presidential election.
So inflaming dissension with in a politicized health crisis becomes a means of re-enforcing that goal.

It's obvious Paul's position isn't about the science of the issue, it's about whose politics rules your future.
All you have to do for Paul is risk your own health....and even death.

Hippocratic Oath anyone?


----------



## Johnny b

MisterEd51 said:


> Apparently you have been watching too much MSNBC and CNN. The are openly shills for the Democrats. A day did not go by where they didn't criticize or attack Trump.
> 
> Trump took COVID-19 seriously ............................


And yet, how does that claim explain this?

* Demand Surges for Deworming Drug for Covid, Despite No Evidence It Works *
https://www.nytimes.com/2021/08/30/health/covid-ivermectin-prescriptions.html

It seems to me, there is a segment of the public, a large segment, that can be influenced into believing the absurd when political propaganda plays a large part in their lives.

All hail Alex Jones.


----------



## Johnny b

An interesting development.
Not surprising.
And note, I have no issues with the use of monoclonal antibodies.
It's the supply factor that could be a problem.
Last I read, production was projected at 100,000 doses a month.
According to Johns Hopkins,
https://coronavirus.jhu.edu/map.html
the last 28 day infection data shows a little over 1,000.000 infections in the US.
Obviously, not everyone infected is going to get that treatment.
True, it's 'better than nothing', but then the vaccine+masks+social distancing is also 'better than nothing' and at the same time, better than relying only on being saved by monoclonal antibodies.

* Demand for antibody treatment used by Trump grows in states where delta is surging *
https://news.yahoo.com/demand-antibody-treatment-used-trump-103300126.html



> Officials in states with skyrocketing hospitalizations due to the COVID-19 delta variant have touted underutilized monoclonal antibody treatments as the best way to avoid serious illness. Still, they stand by their decisions to ban vaccine mandates.


That last sentence says a lot about how certain politicians value the lives of the general public.


----------



## Johnny b

Wino said:


> Wino says - ignorance is bliss ! I also suspect Mississippians believe in the tooth fairy, Leprechauns, Peter Pan etal. 🤪


A lot of people in Ohio are the same.

* Judge's order requiring hospital to give COVID patient ivermectin called "unethical" *
https://arstechnica.com/tech-policy...ve-covid-patient-ivermectin-called-unethical/



> The judge in the case likely feels that, because Jeffrey Smith is dying, that doctors should "try anything," Caplan said. "Well, that's false, because you can still kill him faster."
> 
> "The judge is trying to throw a life preserver to a dying man. The problem is what he's throwing is actually a 50 pound weight that'll sink him."


And I suspect there'll be a lot of conspiracy theories projecting the doctors that refuse as evil Socialists.


----------



## Johnny b

MisterEd51 said:


> ........................
> 
> Our constitutional rights are much too important for people to just roll over and give them up. If we don't defend them we will lose them.


What 'constitutional rights' are you referring to?
Specifically.

And by what means do you plan to...'defend them'?
By Covid-19? By Infection? By Death?
Sedition?
Insurrection?
.... Other?

Have you thought this out?


----------



## Wino

"Right now in the USA, every ten days, more than 8,000 (unvaccinated) Republican voters are dying of COVID-19. That's 5X the rate for Democrats."

https://twitter.com/neiltyson/status/14 ... 0215807174

Once again, Covid beats stupid. Personally, I would think the ratio considerably higher than 5:1. Thinning the herd (or is it horde?) at a rate of 800 per day. That will put a dent in 74 mil TS'ers. Seems it's more of a 'survival of the smartest' rather than the fittest.


----------



## Johnny b

Wino said:


> ...............................Seems it's more of a 'survival of the smartest' rather than the fittest.


I'm no longer sure even that will matter.
There was a recent financial article over at Yahoo as I remember.
It discussed the effects Covid was having on the economy from the disruption of supply lines, in manufacturing and retail/wholesale markets.
Most people are probably familiar with the auto industry's shortage of chips, but that shortage extends all the way to the equipment manufacturers replace due to wear. To products we call IOT. High tech is literally everywhere.
Supply lines are getting disrupted at ports of entry because of the lack of trucking. Thus needed imports of all designs become late in delivery, further disrupting the economy.

I haven't read of how this affects our military, but logically, logistical problems on a massive scale would obviously impede it's ability to carry out military operations concerning combat.

Biden owns the mess in Afghanistan, but he may have had no alternative than to leave quickly.

Covid-19 is removing people in key positions through out our society.
If the bad attitudes of a minority don't change and/or a more virulant strain of Covid appears, eventually it will be much more than just our economy at stake.
There are already shortages of nurses and doctors. Reports of some police jurisdictions with shortages.

That may sound like the rants of doom and gloom.....but it is a possibility.

But cheer up......it's your Constitutional right to suffer.


----------



## Johnny b

(sub title)
* Florida to issue $5,000 fines for requiring proof of vaccination *

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news...k-mandates-hospitalizations-cases/5672901001/



> Florida Gov. Ron DeSantis is not only doubling but tripling down against those trying to impose measures to fight off the coronavirus in the state.
> 
> Two days after the DeSantis administration followed through on his threat to withhold funds from school districts that defied his ban on mask mandates, the Republican governor's office confirmed that Florida will start issuing $5,000 fines to businesses, schools and governments that require proof of COVID-19 vaccination.
> 
> DeSantis signed a bill in May that banned vaccine passports, and last week the state's Department of Health established how it would be enforced. The fines will start Sept. 16.


Looks like just being a resident in the state of Florida is a death sentence.


----------



## Johnny b

Covid related:

* General Motors to temporarily halt production of nearly all US plants due to pandemic-related chip shortage overseas *
https://www.usatoday.com/story/mone...ip-shortage-assembly-plants-close/5696490001/


----------



## valis

Johnny b said:


> Covid related:
> 
> * General Motors to temporarily halt production of nearly all US plants due to pandemic-related chip shortage overseas *
> https://www.usatoday.com/story/mone...ip-shortage-assembly-plants-close/5696490001/


Wow....that is big news...covid aint going away anytime soon. Welcome to the new normal.


----------



## Johnny b

valis said:


> Wow....that is big news...covid aint going away anytime soon. Welcome to the new normal.


I suspect the 'New Normal' will look mostly like chaos initially.
A lot of scenarios that used to be innocent but aggregate into major problems.

An obvious example:
Chip shortages were affected by Covid as the computing needs for home-work place activities expanded exponentially.
And now Microsoft has instituted a further need for equipment replacement with their upcoming Win 11 operating system. This also affects the business realm.

As the auto industry waits for millions of chips, the field of information technology increases the need for millions more.
In 'normal' times, that increase in usage would be seen as a positive.
But since the influence of Covid-19 and production issues, it's more like a bad business decision that further increases negative supply issues on other critical/important businesses.
Not evil, just blind to reality.
Chip shortages will also affect IT.

I read where some retailers are again experiencing runs on toilet paper.


----------



## Johnny b

The 'new normal'?
I wish it weren't.

* Tucker Carlson Says People Who Try to Limit the Spread of COVID-19 Should Be 'Punished' (Video) *
https://www.thewrap.com/tucker-carl...-spread-of-covid-19-should-be-punished-video/

video here:

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1433588541745999873


----------



## Wino

We deserve the government we elect. Florida, like Texas is full of rw idiots and TS'ers. It's a shame those with a modicum of sanity must suffer, too.


----------



## Johnny b

Wino said:


> We deserve the government we elect. Florida, like Texas is full of rw idiots and TS'ers. It's a shame those with a modicum of sanity must suffer, too.


Remember the 'family values' spiel the rw used to peddle under GW Bush?
Poof! Goners.

I argued, here at TSG...long ago.....legalizing drug abuse wasn't a wise decision....
and look at it's obvious influence:

Bizarre cults.









Now look what's happened.......hah! ( not the humorous kind of hah  )
Some people are convinced livestock de-wormer is a cure for Covid-19 and won't take the vaccine or wear masks.

A truly sad state of affairs.


----------



## Wino

Have to disagree. If there were more pot smokers the world would be a much better place. There is a huge difference in being a pot user and just plain ignorant and stupid - you can't blame the latter two on drugs of any nature when it comes to RW'ers & TS'ers batcrap crazy over the orange gargoyle.
As for repubs having the upper hand in 'family values' ever in history - is the same as saying 1/6 wasn't an insurrection.🤪


----------



## Johnny b

Wino said:


> Have to disagree. If there were more pot smokers the world would be a much better place. .................


You're just biased


----------



## Wino

True that!!


----------



## Johnny b

Wino said:


> True that!!


lol!

I'd start a thread on it, but things have gotten to the point it probably doesn't matter any more.
Politics is the 'new drug' of choice.


----------



## valis

Wino said:


> We deserve the government we elect. Florida, like Texas is full of rw idiots and TS'ers. It's a shame those with a modicum of sanity must suffer, too.


We reap what we sow.


----------



## Johnny b

Ivermectin user cured in less than a week?
How many people will become ill or die trying the same 'feat'?

* Joe Rogan Tests Negative for COVID 2 Days After Revealing Positive Test *
https://news.yahoo.com/joe-rogan-tests-negative-covid-192909966.html

* Joe Rogan Reveals He Has COVID - and Yes, He's Taking Horse Medicine Ivermectin *
https://www.thewrap.com/joe-rogan-reveals-he-has-covid-and-yes-hes-taking-horse-medicine-ivermectin/


----------



## Johnny b

High tech isn't the only market segment seeing stress from Covid-19.
Agriculture also.

Shortages of migrant labor compounded by climate and natural pests are impacting the global production of edible oils, like palm oil.
This applies to much of the world's food sources, too.

* Rats, drought and labour shortages eat into global edible oil recovery *
https://uk.investing.com/news/econo...s-eat-into-global-edible-oil-recovery-2457386

The same pressures exist in US agriculture.
Expect rising prices and even shortages, in segments of US agro production that go beyond conventional inflation. 
Expect it in the imported 'fresh' fruits and vegetables you buy daily.

Maybe you ought to be stocking up on toilet paper, too.


----------



## Johnny b

This is over due.
No doubt there will be whinny complaints from the GOP death cult as their leaders bark madness and lies.

* Sweeping new vaccine mandates for 100 million Americans *
https://apnews.com/article/joe-bide...utive-branch-18fb12993f05be13bf760946a6fb89be


----------



## Wino

Like seatbelt laws - saving Americans from themselves.


----------



## Johnny b

Interesting take on Covid-19 religious exemptions because vaccine development was derived from fetal cell lines.

So are other products.

* Hospital staff must swear off Tylenol, Tums to get religious vaccine exemption *
https://arstechnica.com/science/202...enol-tums-to-get-religious-vaccine-exemption/



> The list includes Tylenol, Pepto Bismol, aspirin, Tums, Lipitor, Senokot, Motrin, ibuprofen, Maalox, Ex-Lax, Benadryl, Sudafed, albuterol, Preparation H, MMR vaccine, Claritin, Zoloft, Prilosec OTC, and azithromycin.
> 
> Conway Regional notes that the list includes commonly used and available drugs but that it is not an all-inclusive list of such medicines.


What a buzz kill.


----------



## Couriant

I'm not half awake yet but the hospital staff can't use that themselves?


----------



## Johnny b

Couriant said:


> I'm not half awake yet but the hospital staff can't use that themselves?


Not if they're honest and want a religious exemption.


----------



## Couriant

Johnny b said:


> Not if they're honest and want a religious exemption.


but can administer/provide it to patients? If that's the case then if they want religious exemption then they should quit.


----------



## Johnny b

Couriant said:


> but can administer/provide it to patients? If that's the case then if they want religious exemption then they should quit.


The issue/article isn't about patients.
It's about hospital employees and their claims for a vaccine exemption.

From the link



> The intent of the form is twofold, Troup says. First, the hospital wants to ensure that staff members are sincere in their stated beliefs, he said, and second, it wants to "educate staff who might have requested an exemption without understanding the full scope of how fetal cells are used in testing and development in common medicines."
> 
> Troup says that employees who do not sign the attestation form will be granted a provisional exemption, which is only temporary. They may be asked to sign the attestation later and, as the attestation notes, if they fail to get an exemption or a vaccine, they face disciplinary action, including termination.


In other words, the hospital will accommodate a sincere claim, but take actions against those that flaunt the claim.

My use of the term "buzz kill" was merely sarcasm from reading the short list of over the counter meds that also derived results from fetal cell lines. 
BTW fetal cell lines are not directly derived from newly aborted fetuses.
They are historical lines of replicated cells from abortions decades ago.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Use_of_fetal_tissue_in_vaccine_development


> Vaccine experts and manufacturers state that vaccines do not contain any of the original fetal tissue or cells, that the abortions occurred decades ago and replenishment with new tissue has not occurred.[5] Although the vaccines are purified from cell debris, traces of human DNA fragments inevitably remain.


For some people, it's an honest moral issue.
For some others, hypocrisy.

Hypocrisy, in many ways, seems rampant these days


----------



## Johnny b

Speaking about hypocrisy.....

* Fox's vaccine criticism focuses attention on its own policy *
https://news.yahoo.com/foxs-vaccine-criticism-focuses-attention-230550022.html












> Yet Kevin Lord, executive vice president of human resources at Fox News parent Fox Corp., said in a memo this week the company will be requiring all unvaccinated employees to be tested each day - not just once a week - in order to work in company facilities. The policy was first reported by CNN.
> 
> Fox last month required employees to report evidence of their status, and Lord said more than 90% of full-time employees have been fully vaccinated.
> 
> "So while Fox hosts bemoan and complain about the liberals who are forcing Americans to get vaccinated, they themselves are doing the same thing - and that is the textbook definition of hypocrisy," he said.





> No Fox on-air personality has addressed the company's COVID policies.


Imagine that <smirk>


----------



## MisterEd51

Biden's mandate that booster shots would start next Monday September 20 gets a setback.

Today September 17 the FDA panel voted 16-2 against Pfizer booster shots. They didn't rule it out but said they needed more time to evaluate the data. There may be another vote on a more restrictive recommendation.

I am glad to see that people at the FDA didn't let themselves be bullied by the Whitehouse and let politics overrule science.


----------



## Couriant

So Moderna is OK to use? Would it matter if someone got the pfizer shot first?


----------



## Johnny b

Couriant said:


> So Moderna is OK to use? Would it matter if someone got the pfizer shot first?


Changing labels hasn't been addressed yet.
I have read that certain crossovers might be advantageous and Moderna was mentioned.
Still a lot to discover.


----------



## Johnny b

MisterEd51 said:


> .....................
> 
> I am glad to see that people at the FDA didn't let themselves be bullied by the Whitehouse and let politics overrule science.


Edit.....removed content, thought I was in Random lol.

Knowing you were a Trump supporter, it makes it dificult to take that comment seriously.


----------



## MisterEd51

Couriant said:


> So Moderna is OK to use? Would it matter if someone got the pfizer shot first?


No. You would need to get booster for the shot you first got.

I haven't heard anything about a Moderna booster shot being approved yet.

Update "FDA panel recommends Pfizer's Covid booster doses for people 65 and older after rejecting third shots for general population."

Remember these are only recommendations by an FDA panel. The full FDA may adapt or reject these recommendations at their own discretion.

Also, the Whitehouse may in turn reject any recommendation from the FDA and go ahead with the boosters next week anyways. Stay tuned for further updates...


----------



## Johnny b

MisterEd51 said:


> Biden's mandate that booster shots would start next Monday September 20 gets a setback.
> 
> Today September 17 the FDA panel voted 16-2 against Pfizer booster shots. They didn't rule it out but said they needed more time to evaluate the data. There may be another vote on a more restrictive recommendation.
> ............


Well la de da lol!

Read the news outlets and what do you know?
There's more to the 'story'. ( typical of Trump supporters  )

https://www.npr.org/sections/corona...dvising-fda-vote-against-pfizer-covid-booster



> After a brief intermission following the rejection, FDA officials returned to the meeting with a revised booster question. The panel then voted 18-0 in support of the agency authorizing a booster shot of the vaccine for people 65 and older or at high risk of severe COVID-19.


Looks like I'll be getting mine.

Bet that pisses off the gang at Fox


----------



## MisterEd51

Johnny b said:


> Edit.....removed content, thought I was in Random lol.
> 
> Knowing you were a Trump supporter, it makes it dificult to take that comment seriously.


Just stating the facts. Nothing more...


----------



## Johnny b

MisterEd51 said:


> Just stating the facts. Nothing more...


LOL!

Facts are always nice.....especially when all of them are considered.


----------



## Wino

I've had my booster or third Pfizer shot five months after 2nd shot with no adverse effect. Moderna/ J&J so far not approved. Mixing manufacturers not recommended, but also not prevented and OK if that's what available.
It seems most against booster until most have been vaccinated or don't worry about those that haven't had shots than fret about boosters for all. Considering the right TS'ers aren't going to get vaxxed, I'd not worry about them at all. Covid will fix stupid in many cases. I fully expect WH will approve and/or recommend boosters - still better to give boosters rather than throw vax away since their life is not infinite and going to trash/waste waiting on those that are hesitant. Idaho is in deep doo doo along with Florida and Texas.


----------



## Wino

Johnny b said:


> Well la de da lol!
> 
> Read the news outlets and what do you know?
> There's more to the 'story'. ( typical of Trump supporters  )
> 
> https://www.npr.org/sections/corona...dvising-fda-vote-against-pfizer-covid-booster
> 
> Looks like I'll be getting mine.
> 
> [bold]Bet that pisses off the gang at Fox[/bold]


Shouldn't upset Fox - they all have their vaxx. Gives a whole new meaning to talking out of both sides of their mouths!!


----------



## Johnny b

Wino said:


> I've had my booster or third Pfizer shot five months after 2nd shot with no adverse effect. Moderna/ J&J so far not approved. Mixing manufacturers not recommended, but also not prevented and OK if that's what available.
> It seems most against booster until most have been vaccinated or don't worry about those that haven't had shots than fret about boosters for all. Considering the right TS'ers aren't going to get vaxxed, I'd not worry about them at all. Covid will fix stupid in many cases. I fully expect WH will approve and/or recommend boosters - still better to give boosters rather than throw vax away since their life is not infinite and going to trash/waste waiting on those that are hesitant. Idaho is in deep doo doo along with Florida and Texas.


:up:

The craziest of all concerning deniers is that those that were infected ( and re-infection is still possible ) are considered to often have even greater immunity with a shot, than those uninfected, even after their second shots.
Bizarre..they have an advantage at hand and still, many refuse it.

https://www.science.org/doi/full/10.1126/science.abj2258

^ it's an interesting read.


----------



## Wino

Difficult to understand the why in some people. Vaxx or booster increases your chance of survival - kinda like a viral seatbelt.
I'm sadly amused re the "Go Fund Me" by families that refuse to vaccinate, then want others to help pay for their funerals. Don't hold their breath waiting for me to crack open my wallet to help pay for their stupidity.


----------



## Johnny b

Wino said:


> Difficult to understand the why in some people. Vaxx or booster increases your chance of survival - kinda like a viral seatbelt.
> I'm sadly amused re the "Go Fund Me" by families that refuse to vaccinate, then want others to help pay for their funerals. Don't hold their breath waiting for me to crack open my wallet to help pay for their stupidity.


Imo, from this time forward....anyone refusing the vaccine for any reason should be made to get supplemental insurance to cover any costs associated with a Covid-19 infection.
Or pay out of pocket.
It's an issue of unusual and unacceptable risk.
They shouldn't be a deadly burden to start with.
Definitely shouldn't be a destructive financial burden either.

The issue with the pandemic became political under Trump.
There is no political solution to Covid-19.
It's going to take a cooperation of effort by an entire society, willingly.
And that's not happening.

Trump inspired a death cult.


----------



## Johnny b

Hey Wino
Ever notice while reasonable people go with the science behind an issue, the current Trump cult goes with the science only when it favors their own politicized position?

It's a 'good thing' that the FDA went with science to determine who gets boosters, but when the FDA comments about Ivermectin, it's anything from a socialist to a corporate plot lol!

* Why You Should Not Use Ivermectin to Treat or Prevent COVID-19 *
https://www.fda.gov/consumers/consu...-not-use-ivermectin-treat-or-prevent-covid-19

vs:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/poli...cy-theories-led-people-buying-horse-dewormer/

https://blockclubchicago.org/2021/0...s-used-to-treat-parasitic-worms-in-livestock/

and even the super quack in Congress:
https://www.cnn.com/2021/08/31/politics/rand-paul-covid-19-ivermectin/index.html

The number of links seems endless.

The likes of Alex Jones and Joe Rogan promote it.

Politicians promote it.

Questionable doctors promote it.
One of the worst being the Trump affiliated group '*America's Frontline Doctors'.*
https://time.com/6092368/americas-frontline-doctors-covid-19-misinformation/


> Since its founding last year by Dr. Simone Gold, a Los Angeles physician who was later arrested during the Jan. 6 attack on the U.S. Capitol, America's Frontline Doctors has nurtured medical conspiracies popular in right-wing circles. Created as a political project to support the Trump Administration's economic reopening push, it ricocheted from promoting skepticism about COVID-19 to launching a national RV tour to denounce "medical censorship and cancel culture." It promoted hydroxychloroquine as a miracle drug and billed itself as a provider of legal services for people who refuse to be vaccinated or to wear a mask, or who want to stop vaccinations for children.


And Talk radio.

But when the science aligns with one of their objectives, no matter how small, the FDA are the 'good guys' because, get this lol, they 'follow the science'.

IMO, sanity follows the science, pretty much hit and mostly miss with the cultists and conspiracy theorists ( aka Trump supporters) . 
(What's that? Do I hear whining in the background?  )


----------



## Wino

When one compares the number of deaths from COVID in USA, currently 673K +/-, and making an estimate of the percentage of TS'ers @ 75% = 505K. In 2020 election DJT lost Georgia by 11,780 votes +/-. Using the same percentage of 75% TS'ers and Ga. deaths of 24K +/- = 18K +/-, I'd venture a guess the repulsives are in a major Knickers bind killing off their supporters. I'd expect this to be true in AZ, MI, PA, NV, AL or any close vote states. Places like Texas and Florida, it would just be a minor dent as apparently both states flooded with ignorant despicables.🤪 Even if you drop the percentage to 60%, it still holds true.
As I've posted in the past, the only good thing about Covid is it prevented the orange scourge from a second term and hopefully, 1/6 too, from ever being in the oval office, again.We'll have to see what the crazies do in DC today.


----------



## Johnny b

Wino said:


> When one compares the number of deaths from COVID in USA, currently 673K +/-, and making an estimate of the percentage of TS'ers @ 75% = 505K. In 2020 election DJT lost Georgia by 11,780 votes +/-. Using the same percentage of 75% TS'ers and Ga. deaths of 24K +/- = 18K +/-, I'd venture a guess the repulsives are in a major Knickers bind killing off their supporters. I'd expect this to be true in AZ, MI, PA, NV, AL or any close vote states. .........................


Indeed.
I suspect this is a strong consideration for the Trump movement, pushing to place supportive Secretaries of State in power, to invalidate GOP election loses.

Those on the extreme rightwing that vociferously claim to be the supportive of the Constitution are actually involved in destroying it.


----------



## Johnny b

Interesting article. Not yet peer reviewed.
More of a discussion than claims.

* Did the coronavirus jump from animals to people twice? *
https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-021-02519-1


----------



## Johnny b

I see articles like this and I wonder what is really going on in their minds.
Not only is it an abuse of power, it sends negative signals out that hurt the goals of those that honestly seek an end to the Covid-19 pandemic:

* Maskless San Francisco mayor bucks health order at nightclub *
https://news.yahoo.com/maskless-san-francisco-mayor-bucks-175825161.html

IMO....it's difficult to get cooperation from the general public with leaders proclaiming 'don't do what I do, do what I say'.

Her words become almost as worthless and destructive as the deniers.

:down:


----------



## Wino

Johnny b said:


> I see articles like this and I wonder what is really going on in their minds.
> Not only is it an abuse of power, it sends negative signals out that hurt the goals of those that honestly seek an end to the Covid-19 pandemic:
> 
> * Maskless San Francisco mayor bucks health order at nightclub *
> https://news.yahoo.com/maskless-san-francisco-mayor-bucks-175825161.html
> 
> IMO....it's difficult to get cooperation from the general public with leaders proclaiming 'don't do what I do, do what I say'.
> 
> Her words become almost as worthless and destructive as the deniers.


She's done nothing more than what most everyone else has done - even those that mask and care enough to do so. Only difference is no one gives a flip if I or you do it cause a "gotcha" on you or I doesn't mean squat. Get your whitie tighties out of the knot and enjoy your day.


----------



## Johnny b

Wino said:


> She's done nothing more than what most everyone else has done - even those that mask and care enough to do so. Only difference is no one gives a flip if I or you do it cause a "gotcha" on you or I doesn't mean squat. Get your whitie tighties out of the knot and enjoy your day.





> She's done nothing more than what most everyone else has done


Maybe you forgot to read her title?
It's rather official and she does generate/apply rules imposed upon others.
She and those that have done likewise create those 'gotchas' that empower the loons.
She becomes just as much a hypocrite as the Fox crew that denigrate Fauci and willingly take their vaxx shots with out notice or personal complaint.

And it does mean squat to me.
I adhere to logic and reality lol.
I'm in survival mode.
I intend to outlast Trump's minions as long as humanly possible 
If that entails stepping on a few Clinton wannabe's...well, so be it.

You forget, I'm not a (shudder) liberal lol.
She's fair game


----------



## Wino

That's like me complaining about DJT wearing a mask !


----------



## Johnny b

Wino said:


> That's like me complaining about DJT wearing a mask !


Maybe, but when he wears one it's to hide his identity lol.


----------



## Johnny b

Florida has gotten a lot of attention as a Covid death camp, and justly so.
But Mississippi tops them statistically and also in a cult like manor.

* Governor of State Leading Nation in Covid Death Rate Can't Name a Thing He'd Do Differently *
https://news.yahoo.com/governor-state-leading-nation-covid-151106290.html



> Reeves then claimed, absurdly, that by imposing vaccine mandates - because vaccines are the one proven way to quell this pandemic - Biden isn't actually trying to save lives, he's just on a power trip.
> 
> "The president's not focused on saving lives," Reeves said. "The president is focused on taking unilateral action to show his power, to show that he's doing something. But that's not going to solve things.
> 
> "When you believe in eternal life - when you believe that living on this earth is but a blip on the screen, then you don't have to be so scared of things."


Inviting/encouraging death (suicide) isn't in any of the Holy Bible scriptures I was aware of.

Going forth and multiplying, yes

Intentionally risking death by disease for an afterlife doesn't seem like much of a theological argument.

Mississippi appears to have become led politically, by a death cult.
A reoccurring theme within the Trump faction of the GOP.


----------



## Johnny b

Another new low in medicine, another new low in Ohio.

Old article:

* Medical professionals falsely talk of COVID vaccine magnetism, during Ohio House hearing *
https://local12.com/news/local/medi...-ohio-house-hearing-cincinnati-sherri-tenpeny



> A licensed physician told an Ohio House committee that the COVID-19 vaccine "magnetizes people".
> 
> Dr. Sherri Tenpenny of Middleburg Heights said there's proof in internet videos.


Current status:

* License of Ohio doctor who falsely claimed COVID vaccines caused magnetism is renewed *
https://local12.com/news/local/ohio...sed-magnetism-gets-to-keep-license-cincinnati



> Ohio's state medical board, which credentials doctors, just renewed Tenpenny's license for another two years. She is a licensed osteopath.


'Practicing' medicine....:down:


----------



## Johnny b

Too grim for the Random Covid thread.
A long article.
Some out takes:

* The Unbelievable Grimness of HermanCainAward, the Subreddit That Catalogs Anti-Vaxxer COVID Deaths *
https://slate.com/technology/2021/09/hermancainaward-subreddit-antivaxxer-deaths-cataloged.html



> This is not a forum that attempts to change minds. It's much darker.
> 
> HermanCainAward, one of the fastest-growing subreddits on Reddit.com, is exactly what it sounds like: an archive of those who have been hospitalized and/or killed by COVID and didn't believe the disease could harm them.
> ...........
> It is cruel, a site for heartless and unrepentant schadenfreude.
> .........
> I understand the disease more deeply because I have read so many viciously curated "stories" in which ordinary people blathering about politics end up narrating their decline from it-with help from their families-as optimistically as they can.
> ...........
> They do not expect to die. It's relentless reading. And it keeps ending up the same way.
> ..........
> Specifically, you see the suffering.......... People post that they're not feeling well when they've already become patients. They usually put it simply, with a request for prayers. The contrast to their grandstanding in prior posts acts as an intensifier..........





> These individual stories do not produce conversions. These aren't situations where anti-vaxxers learn their lesson, get vaccinated, and save themselves.
> .....
> What this massive record of human suffering really illustrates (in all its startling, repetitive sameness) is how seamlessly anti-vax communities reconcile themselves to the deaths their convictions will perpetuate.
> ...........
> It is an anti-persuasive venue, a place that dispenses with rational appeals for people to behave better in favor of something much more primal and horrifying. And who knows? Maybe it's persuading people specifically because it's not trying to.


I visited the Reddit site.
One repetitive horror after another.
IMO, only a politically driven death cult could create such insanity.


----------



## Johnny b

And here we go with Ron DeSantis and his Floridian death cult:

* Florida's new surgeon general skeptical of vaccines, opposes masks *
https://arstechnica.com/science/202...-general-skeptical-of-vaccines-opposes-masks/



> Florida Gov. Ron DeSantis announced Tuesday that the state's new surgeon general will be Joseph Ladapo, a UCLA researcher known for opposing evidence-based mask mandates, vaccine mandates, and lockdowns.
> 
> Instead, Dr. Ladapo advocates for the controversial idea of embracing "the reality of viral spread" to achieve herd immunity.


A WSJ article by Ladapo:
(there is a paywall)
* Masks Are a Distraction From the Pandemic Reality *
https://www.wsj.com/articles/masks-are-a-distraction-from-the-pandemic-reality-11603927026


> Several randomized trials of community or household masking have been completed. Most have shown that wearing a mask has little or no effect on respiratory virus transmission, according to a review published earlier this year in Emerging Infectious Diseases, the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention's journal.


This link was his reference. 
https://wwwnc.cdc.gov/eid/article/26/5/19-0994_article

Notice the terms 'disposable medical' and 'surgical'


> Disposable medical masks (also known as surgical masks) are loose-fitting devices that were designed to be worn by medical personnel to protect accidental contamination of patient wounds, and to protect the wearer against splashes or sprays of bodily fluids (36). There is limited evidence for their effectiveness in preventing influenza virus transmission either when worn by the infected person for source control or when worn by uninfected persons to reduce exposure. Our systematic review found no significant effect of face masks on transmission of laboratory-confirmed influenza.


Now notice the term 'respirator' and it's association to N95 masks:


> We did not consider the use of respirators in the community. Respirators are tight-fitting masks that can protect the wearer from fine particles (37) and should provide better protection against influenza virus exposures when properly worn because of higher filtration efficiency. However, respirators, such as N95 and P2 masks, work best when they are fit-tested, and these masks will be in limited supply during the next pandemic. These specialist devices should be reserved for use in healthcare settings or in special subpopulations such as immunocompromised persons in the community, first responders, and those performing other critical community functions, as supplies permit.


The above has been noted many times in the past.
Ladapo is not being honest with the public.
He has an agenda in promoting immunity through infection.
That includes dying in an attempt to achieve herd immunity.

]

Florida. A politically driven cult death camp experiment? Looking that way more and more.


----------



## Johnny b

More on the Trump Republican death cult in Florida.
Can DeSantis out-Trump, Trump?

* Florida Students Are No Longer Required To Quarantine After Being Exposed To COVID *
https://www.npr.org/sections/corona...uarantine-optional-for-students-exposed-covid



> A day after assuming his job, Florida's newly appointed surgeon general on Wednesday signed new protocols allowing parents to decide whether their children should quarantine or stay in school if they are asymptomatic after being exposed to someone who has tested positive for COVID-19.


Novel approach.....killing off the young to achieve herd immunity.
I'm wondering how popular that's going to be with the general public in Fla.


----------



## Wino

Hopeful, that along with Texas guv, Florida & Texas will vote these two putz out of office for their mismanagement of covid protocol same as it did with the orange pustule. Unfortunately, it appears the electorate is hell bent on fascism rule as the republic balances on the cusp of failure.😤🤬


----------



## Chawbacon

Wino said:


> Hopeful, that along with Texas guv, Florida & Texas will vote these two putz out of office for their mismanagement of covid protocol same as it did with the orange pustule. Unfortunately, it appears the electorate is hell bent on fascism rule as the republic balances on the cusp of failure.😤🤬


So you are saying that allowing people to send their children to school when they have no symptoms of being sick is fascism?  You might want to rethink this one pal.


----------



## Chawbacon

Johnny b said:


> The above has been noted many times in the past.
> Ladapo is not being honest with the public.
> He has an agenda in promoting immunity through infection.
> That includes dying in an attempt to achieve herd immunity.


Come on now Johnny. Masks being worn by the general public are just a step above useless when it comes to protecting oneself, or protecting others. If masks are so effective, then why are they not effective in the states that require them?

Put on your thinking hat for a sec. You can contract a virus via your eyes just as easily as inhaling a virus. To protect yourself you would have to seal your eyes, nose, and mouth and use a military grade charcoal filter for incoming air. Even after you do all of that, you are not protecting anyone else; because, your infected gasses must be expelled, or you expire. Then consider the size of the Covid19 virus being significantly smaller than the weave of the masks being worn in the public. Hmmm..... Yeah.... Masking the public is basically useless.


----------



## Johnny b

Chawbacon said:


> Come on now Johnny. Masks being worn by the general public are just a step above useless when it comes to protecting oneself, or protecting others. If masks are so effective, then why are they not effective in the states that require them?
> 
> Put on your thinking hat for a sec. You can contract a virus via your eyes just as easily as inhaling a virus. To protect yourself you would have to seal your eyes, nose, and mouth and use a military grade charcoal filter for incoming air. Even after you do all of that, you are not protecting anyone else; because, your infected gasses must be expelled, or you expire. Then consider the size of the Covid19 virus being significantly smaller than the weave of the masks being worn in the public. Hmmm..... Yeah.... Masking the public is basically useless.


Thank you for posting that interesting commentary, Dr Jack. 

BTW, for your edification, by definition of a 'gas'
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gas
virus and viral particles are not a 'gas'. The fall into the realm of solid matter and in terms of filtration, a particulate mask is required.
'Gas' masks will do the same, but capture certain gasses chemically, thus the charcoal filter. And there are different organic filters for various applications. 
I've used both particulate and organic filters. Organic when spraying herbicides ( farming ) , particulate N95's for a mold allergy and N95's during the current pandemic.
My allergy condition has inproved over the years so that all I need now when mowing the lawn is a bandanna.



> Then consider the size of the Covid19 virus being significantly smaller than the weave of the masks being worn in the public.


Indeed.
That's why particulate masks are graded as to efficiency.
N95's representing a 95% efficiency.
Others less, and cloth and surgery masks even less. Bandannas probably the least.

But masks do more than filter incoming air, they also filter out going.

Since you refuse to wear a mask, you wouldn't experience the moisture expelled in your breath being caught in your mask.
It does the same even with a simple bandanna covering the mouth.

So, when a Covid 19 infected person sheds, a significant portion of that viral load is trapped in the mask along with some moisture. All masks trap a portion of moisture in expelled breath.

Masks do double duty. They help to significantly reduce the virus expelled into the air and filter what is being inhaled.

Jack, you've become a spreader of misinformation.
Incredibly bogus.
And it can kill innocent people, of any political persuasion.



> You can contract a virus via your eyes just as easily as inhaling a virus.


You should be ashamed of yourself.


----------



## Johnny b

Chawbacon said:


> So you are saying that allowing people to send their children to school when they have no symptoms of being sick is fascism?  You might want to rethink this one pal.


It's obvious you haven't.
A person can be infected, show no symptoms and still spread the disease.
They are the asymptomatic.

Fascism and the Trump republican mind set are obviously an element driving denial of the COvid-19 reality.
Even you express the symptoms of the effect it's had on our society.

The greatest technological nation, the USA, has the greatest number of infections and deaths of all other nations, with out having the largest population.
It's not medical science that drove us to this situation.
It's politics and the need to present denial as a means to retain political influence.
MAGA.


----------



## Wino

TS'ers are so utterly obtuse along with reading comprehension disability. Wish I could say I'm shocked, but it's a commonality that permeates the winger species.😤


----------



## Johnny b

Chawbacon said:


> ................ You can contract a virus via your eyes just as easily as inhaling a virus. ..................


Actually, it's a bit more complicated than that. 

A lot of nutjob claims about.
According to Qanon celebrity, Michael Flynn....Covid vaccines might be added to the salads we eat.

* Former Trump adviser Michael Flynn is pushing a bonkers theory that COVID-19 vaccines are being added to salad dressing *
https://news.yahoo.com/former-trump-adviser-michael-flynn-070429048.html


> Flynn was speaking this week to Clay Clark, the host of the conservative podcast "The Thrivetime Show," and Andrew Sorchini, a Beverly Hills-based precious metals dealer.
> 
> "Somebody sent me a thing this morning where they're talking about putting the vaccine in salad dressing. Have you seen this? I mean it's - and I'm thinking to myself, this is the Bizarro World, right? This is definitely the Bizarro World," Flynn said.
> 
> "These people are seriously thinking about how to impose their will on us in our society, and it has to stop," Flynn added.


Can you top that one, Jack?


----------



## Johnny b

Chawbacon said:


> Come on now Johnny. Masks being worn by the general public are just a step above useless when it comes to protecting oneself, or protecting others. If masks are so effective, then why are they not effective in the states that require them?
> ..................


Will we have to wait another 2 months for another ambush from the fringe?

You do know, they are taking on the traits of Baghdad Bob. 
Someone who confidently declares what everyone else can see is false--someone so wrong, it's funny.
Much like most of the current Trump led GOP. 
Qanon inspired.
Dark humor.

From pandemics to elections. You guys seem to cover it all.

Of interest:
https://news.yahoo.com/masks-help-keep-schools-open-cdc-finds-181915677.html

edit:
also
* Pediatric COVID-19 Cases in Counties With and Without School Mask Requirements - United States, July 1-September 4, 2021 *
https://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/volumes/70/wr/mm7039e3.htm?s_cid=mm7039e3_x#F1_down


----------



## Johnny b

Interesting commentary from Leonard Pitts:

* Dear unvaccinated: Bye! And don't let the door hit you in the . . . well, you know | Opinion *
https://news.yahoo.com/dear-unvaccinated-bye-don-t-193210198.html

:up:



> This is for those of you who've chosen to quit your jobs rather than submit to a vaccine mandate.
> ........
> ........
> Well, on behalf of the rest of us, the ones who miss concerts, restaurants and other people's faces, the ones who are sick and tired of living in pandemic times, here's a word of response to you quitters: Goodbye.
> 
> And here's two more: Good riddance.
> 
> .....
> .....
> That's why we were glad President Biden stopped asking nicely, started requiring vaccinations everywhere he had power to do so. We were also glad when employers followed suit. And if that's a problem for you, then, yes, goodbye, _sayonara, auf wiedersehen, adios_ and _adieu_. We'll miss you, to be sure. But you're asking us to choose between your petulance and our lives.
> 
> And that's really no choice at all.


Well said.


----------



## Chawbacon

Johnny b said:


> Indeed.
> That's why particulate masks are graded as to efficiency.
> N95's representing a 95% efficiency.
> Others less, and cloth and surgery masks even less. Bandannas probably the least.


Let see... From The National Institute of Biotechnology Information... Definitely NOT a right wing site. 


> Face masks against COVID-19: Standards, efficacy, testing and decontamination methods (nih.gov)
> Table 1... N95 has 95% FE for *particles larger than 300 nm *


And from your Infamous Wiki


> Coronavirus - Wikipedia
> Coronaviruses are large, roughly spherical particles with unique surface projections.[43] Their size is highly variable with average diameters of *80 to 120 nm.* Extreme sizes are known from 50 to 200 nm in diameter.


Can you not see the problem with the math here????


Johnny b said:


> You should be ashamed of yourself.


For saying that you can contract a virus though your eyes? 
Riddle me this then. Why does the CDC's own website state the following if you cannot be infected with a virus through your eyes?


> How Coronavirus Spreads | CDC
> 
> Touching *eyes*, nose, or mouth with hands that have the virus on them.




And ANOTHER reference from the CDC. This one has got to sting a little. 


> Eye Safety - Eye Protection for Infection Control | NIOSH | CDC
> Infectious diseases can be transmitted through various mechanisms, among which are infections that can be introduced through the mucous membranes of the eye (conjunctiva). These include viruses and bacteria than can cause conjunctivitis (e.g., adenovirus, herpes simplex, Staphylococcus aureus) and viruses that can cause systemic infections, including bloodborne viruses (e.g. hepatitis B and C viruses, human immunodeficiency virus), herpes viruses, and rhinoviruses. Infectious agents are introduced to the eye either directly (e.g., blood splashes, respiratory droplets generated during coughing or suctioning) or from touching the eyes with contaminated fingers or other objects.


And then there is Michigan State University:


> coronavirus-and-your-eyes-aao.pdf (umich.edu)
> *How can coronavirus affect your eyes? *
> The first thing to understand is that coronavirus can spread through the eyes - just as it does through the mouth or nose


Come on Johnny. You have to up your game a little here!


----------



## Chawbacon

Johnny b said:


> Interesting commentary from Leonard Pitts:
> 
> * Dear unvaccinated: Bye! And don't let the door hit you in the . . . well, you know | Opinion *
> https://news.yahoo.com/dear-unvaccinated-bye-don-t-193210198.html
> 
> 
> 
> Well said.


This is the perfect answer! 


> Daily Conservative Political Memes - Liberty Nation


----------



## Johnny b

Chawbacon said:


> This is the perfect answer!


Actually, in a perverse way....it's perfect.
It demonstrates where you are


----------



## Johnny b

Chawbacon said:


> Let see... From The National Institute of Biotechnology Information... Definitely NOT a right wing site.
> 
> And from your Infamous Wiki
> 
> Can you not see the problem with the math here????
> 
> For saying that you can contract a virus though your eyes?
> Riddle me this then. Why does the CDC's own website state the following if you cannot be infected with a virus through your eyes?
> 
> 
> And ANOTHER reference from the CDC. This one has got to sting a little.
> 
> And then there is Michigan State University:
> 
> Come on Johnny. You have to up your game a little here!





> Can you not see the problem with the math here????


I can.
You misrepresent the risks of virus transmission.
Sometimes you downplay Covid-19 as being the same, if not similar to influenza.
Then you appear to discredit comments in response.
You use contradictory arguments out of convenience.
You seem to have a habit of that, Jack.
Here you are arguing masks are useless. Later, you present a case where masks are a given.

The virus initially travels, airborne, with the moisture that's expelled from lungs and throat..
And that moisture isn't a gas. It's a small droplet of ...water.
And the virus isn't transmitted in this manner one at a time, either.
They clump within that expelled droplet.
They become aerosolized upon evaporation.
And even then, they are clumped.

So again, you've posted misrepresentation.
Thanks for the math,

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7293495/


> Surgical masks and N95 respirators are very popular and ubiquitous among millions of people worldwide as the PPE for COVID-19, but surgical masks are believed to be not preventing aerosol transmission, and N95 respirators are recognized to be preventing aerosol and droplet transmission (Derrick and Gomersall, 2005; Leung et al., 2020; Sandaradura et al., 2020


https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/science/science-briefs/sars-cov-2-transmission.html


> Despite these knowledge gaps, the available evidence continues to demonstrate that existing recommendations to prevent SARS-CoV-2 transmission remain effective. These include physical distancing, community use of well-fitting masks (e.g., barrier face coverings, procedure/surgical masks), adequate ventilation, and avoidance of crowded indoor spaces. These methods will reduce transmission both from inhalation of virus and deposition of virus on exposed mucous membranes.





> For saying that you can contract a virus though your eyes?


For implying the risk was similar.
The greater contact with the virus will be from airborne sources. It's an issue of contact and common sense.
A door handle may have hundreds of virus on it that you touch once, but the lungs potentially absorb thousands of the virus particles when rebreathing the air of an infected person that shedding.

https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/science/science-briefs/sars-cov-2-transmission.html

Same quote as above.

Obviously, an infected person wearing a face mask will leave less of the virus as airborne and thus less of the virus contaminating surfaces.

You like to understate the obvious and overstate the less conspicuous in order to prove a point.



> Come on Johnny. You have to up your game a little here!


You need to post more of your source material.
Your Michigan source just made an argument for face masks. lol.
Why is it I too often sense you don't actually read your sources?
Your link:
https://www.med.umich.edu/kec/pdf/coronavirus-and-your-eyes-aao.pdf



> When someone who has coronavirus coughs or
> talks, virus particles can spray from their mouth
> or nose into your face. You are likely to breathe
> these tiny droplets in through your mouth or
> nose. But the droplets can also enter your body
> through your eyes.
> People who have coronavirus can also spread the
> disease through their tears. Touching tears or a
> surface where tears have landed is another way
> someone can become infected.
> You can also become infected by touching your
> eyes after touching something that has the
> virus on it.
> 
> (edit: and then this?)
> 
> Coronavirus may cause a pink eye infection
> (conjunctivitis), but this is rare. If you have pink
> eye, don't panic. Simply call your ophthalmologist
> to let them know and follow their instructions for
> care. Keep in mind that whether pink eye is
> caused by a virus or bacteria, it can spread if
> someone touches that sticky or runny discharge
> from the eyes.


Rare.
And this:


> Corrective lenses or sunglasses can shield your
> eyes from infected respiratory droplets. But keep
> in mind that they don't provide 100% security.


So.....wear a mask, wash your hands, don't suck your thump, pick your nose or rub your eyes ...and wear a pair of glasses.

See how easy that is?
And definitely get vaccinated.
Which you don't approve of because you claim Covid-19 vaccines aren't vaccines and seem to think Covid-19 is the same as influenza ( somehow).
And you have no issues about experimenting with unproven 'remedies'.
Rather than a horse de-wormer, maybe you just need a horse tranquilizer? lol.


----------



## Johnny b

Hey Jack....
Something for you.
An article by two local doctors concerning Ivermectin.
Nothing new that hasn't been posted in this forum, but notice their professionalism, the absence of politicizing the issue and the concern for the well being of those that get infected.

https://www.daytondailynews.com/loc...vid-19-ivermectin/5INJNRVHSVHDNMP225UMQMTLTY/

Within the Trump era, experimentation with 'off label' drugs became political.
Politics, social media and the anti-vaxxer movement took it out of controlled laboratory environments and placed it in front of the general public as a means to survive.
But their promises do not match reality.

This may be a debate forum, but that doesn't mean challenging the logic of medical science is a worthy argument because the Presidential candidate you backed lost in the last election.
You only generate more losers.


----------



## Johnny b

Chawbacon said:


> Let see... From The National Institute of Biotechnology Information... Definitely NOT a right wing site.
> ......................
> 
> Come on Johnny. You have to up your game a little here!


That would be the link:
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC8084286/

I bothered to read that this morning. 
More than just your excerpt ( lol )
Again, you've intentionally misled the forum and ignored the context of that article.
It discusses the size of the virus and droplets.
But also presents an argument to wear masks.
And if you bothered to read it all, you would have found this interesting aspect pf N95 masks. And it was so close to your excerpt (  )










Note the statement under Advantages.
Just below the statistic you quoted for particle filtration sizes:


> Contains electrets to electrostatically filter particles


What does than mean you might ask ( but I doubt ) ?
It means there is a secondary means of even smaller filtration.
And following that statement is a recommendation in Table 1.

.........................

https://cleanair.camfil.us/2020/10/08/what-n95-respiratory-masks-can-teach-us-about-air-filters/


> *How the N95 Masks Capture Small Particles *
> 
> The fabrics (known as media) used to construct many of these masks are nonwoven, which is to say the fibers are randomly arranged, not woven from yarn in a repeating pattern like the fabric commonly used in clothing. Nonwoven fabrics are not unique; they are used in countless applications we encounter every day. However, the next step in the process is unique and the secret to the mask's performance. The nonwoven media used in many of these masks is infused with an electrostatic charge creating an effect, analogous to a magnet, known as an electret. The electrostatic charge greatly enhances the media's filtration efficiency because the charge attracts small diameter particles to the relatively large diameter fibers in the media. Without that charge, many of these particles would otherwise easily pass straight through the media.


Back to your NIH link:



> The application of electrostatic forces can significantly improve filtration efficiency of a fibrous filter, particularly for particles in the size range of 0.15-0.5 μm [67]. The addition of electrostatically charged fibers helps improve filtration efficiency at a low fiber-packing density, and therefore allows for reduced differential pressure and enhanced breathability.





> In general, any kind of face mask can impede or slow down the propagation of respiratory droplets and aerosols to a certain extent





> The vast majority of masks use the mechanism of filtration to function. It is important to note that a mask filter does not function as a simple strainer. Hence, the pore size of the mask alone does not determine its PFE. In general, the filtration mechanisms of masks involve both mechanical and electrostatic filtration





> In theory, electrostatic attraction is independent of particle size, as Coulomb's law is independent of mass. However, the momentum of larger particles is greater, and hence the path of large particles is mostly straight. In comparison, the path of smaller particles is much less linear and predicable, and thus they have a higher tendency to be captured by electrostatic attraction





> Overall, the PFE of a mask is determined by multiple factors, including those related to the mask itself, such as its pore size, fiber charge, and fit, and those related to external conditions, such as the particle size, shape, charge, and load, the airflow rate and flow conditions, the relative humidity (RH), and environmental temperature





> Likewise, Smith et al. and Long et al. found no significant differences in laboratory-confirmed illnesses in healthcare workers and users who wore N95 _vs._ surgical masks [84,86]. Offeddu et al. also found no significant differences for SARS and influenza (H1N1) infections, *although wearing an N95 or surgical mask reduced the risk of SARS transmission by approximately 80%, compared to not wearing a mask *


There is more.

A very interesting link.
Supportive of wearing masks.
And contradictory of your intentions as I pointed out.
You probably didn't read it all 
Obviously not much of it.

Jack. Why bother?
You only keep coming across as a time waster.

Trump lost. 
I realize that has upset you as well as others.
But it's time to move on.
I think Trump should, also.


----------



## Johnny b

A little humor 

* A prominent anti-vaxxer gave out his phone number at a rally because 'he has nothing to hide.' Two days later, he's begging people to stop calling him. *
https://news.yahoo.com/prominent-anti-vaxxer-gave-phone-043219750.html

caution, 'prominent anti-vaxxer' is quoted using foul language.


----------



## Johnny b

No doubt this will anger anti-vaxxers and covid deniers that are politically motivated.
While rumors and claims of magical cures run rampant on social media sites with none of them proving any medical benefits connected to Covid-19, a new anti-viral drug has been developed by Merck and Ridgeback and in human tests, looks promising.

**New antiviral is highly effective, study finds, and is stirring hope that COVID-19 could be treated by a pill *
https://www.usatoday.com/story/news...e-covid-19-infections-study-found/5938807001/

*Edited October 8, 2021 by Administrator at the request of Johnny b to please refer to his later post at the following link for new developments that now raise concerns about this antiviral drug:

https://forums.techguy.org/threads/coronavirus-spread-to-eu-usa.1239391/post-9845169

No mentions of fish tank cleaners, animal de-wormers, Clorox , lysol or light bulbs up the fanny. Just real science


----------



## Skivvywaver

Some people are going to live and some people are going to die. I am sick to death of it all. I am one of those that believes it was released on purpose, it was made on purpose in a Chinese lab. Fauci even predicted it. He deserves the firing squad.
If I get it and die, it was my time. I am sick of it being used to try to control the population. We need to stand up against the tyranny that the virus has become. Vaccine passports...I'd rather die. I took the jab. My body, my choice...right?


----------



## Cookiegal

Skivvywaver said:


> Some people are going to live and some people are going to die. I am sick to death of it all. I am one of those that believes it was released on purpose, it was made on purpose in a Chinese lab. Fauci even predicted it. He deserves the firing squad.
> If I get it and die, it was my time. I am sick of it being used to try to control the population. We need to stand up against the tyranny that the virus has become. Vaccine passports...I'd rather die. I took the jab. My body, my choice...right?


Scott, your post was not appropriate for the thread in Random so I've moved it over to the one in CT.


----------



## Johnny b

Skivvywaver said:


> ........................I took the jab. My body, my choice...right?


Thanks for volunteering. I knew you could do it lol!

I wish more would do the same.

And don't you just get tired of those criticizing drag racing in the left lane ...


----------



## Johnny b

To those that read my above post
https://forums.techguy.org/threads/coronavirus-spread-to-eu-usa.1239391/post-9843205

Unfortunately some concerns have come up not mentioned in that article.

The drug has a potential problem.
It destroys the virus by way of mutating it's self to 'death'.
I think you can see the concern.

https://forums.techguy.org/threads/...ppening-around-the-world.1240672/post-9844665

Baron's had an report on this reposted on Marketwatch.
https://www.marketwatch.com/articles/merck-covid-pill-risks-51633398722?mod=mw_more_headlines



> Molnupiravir works by incorporating itself into the genetic material of the virus, and then causing a huge number of mutations as the virus replicates, effectively killing it. In some lab tests, the drug has also shown the ability to integrate into the genetic material of mammalian cells, causing mutations as those cells replicate.


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Molnupiravir


> Molnupiravir can swap between two forms (tautomers), one of which mimics cytidine (C) and the other of which mimics uridine (U).[7] When the viral RNA polymerase attempts to copy RNA containing molnupiravir, it sometimes interprets it as C and sometimes as U.[7] This causes a massive number of mutations in all downstream viral copies that exceeds the threshold the virus can survive, an effect called viral error catastrophe or lethal mutagenesis.[8]
> 
> 
> 
> Molnupiravir's active metabolite EIDD-1931 has been found to produce DNA mutations as well in a mammalian cell culture assay, raising concerns for potential carcinogenic and teratogenic effects.[9]


Hated to post this as it looked promising, but it is what it is.


----------



## Johnny b

i read articles in my local news and I wonder, how long can a society exist with fundamentalists like this woman, obviously politically motivated, facilitating the means to kill children by using Scriptures out of the Bible.

* Local mom gets ordained, signs more than hundred mask exemption forms *
https://www.daytondailynews.com/loc...k-exemption-forms/WWSHS6MFIVGHFLU3DGJMDFFFSI/



> On the afternoon of Sept. 3, she posted on Facebook that she had been ordained by the online Universal Life Church - which allows people to "become a minister within seconds."
> .................
> Grant pointed to a few Bible verses, including one from 1 Corinthians, saying, "A man ought not to cover his head, since he is the image and glory of God." She confirmed that she didn't ask the students she signed for whether they believed that.
> 
> "It's not my job to prove, or really ask, and it's not my business what their religion necessarily is," Grant said. "I'm a Constitutional Christian. I think the Constitution is there for a reason. God created our bodies in a perfect way. People told me I was exploiting Jesus. People can think what they want to think but in my heart I feel that God has called me to help people through this situation."


https://www.ulc.org/


----------



## Johnny b

Many times I've referred to the denial of Covid-19, antivaxxers, those arguing it's a constitutional right to refuse wearing masks and mandates protecting the general public and children in public schools......as a death cult often politically and religiously oriented.

They denigrate the safety of vaccines while arguing for the medical usage of inappropriate substances that range from no effect to serious harm and even death,

So why isn't there a push back from this 'community' to Merck's new game changer?

I read this article this morning:

* Drugmakers seek FDA emergency authorization for molnupiravir, antiviral pill to treat COVID-19: Latest updates *
https://www.usatoday.com/story/news...molnupiravir-antiviral-pill-cases/6083682001/

It's scientifically known to be a mutagen in 'mammalian' cells.
If it had been stated a 'mutagen in primates', which are mammalian, it would be reasonable for anyone, including the nutjob death cult-ers, to object.
The studies were obviously short term and as far as cancer concerns, not adequately addressed.

Surely the debacle of fast tracking HIV drugs should be a lesson.
A lesson that needs to be revisited:

*The Cure that Killed *
https://www.discovermagazine.com/health/the-cure-that-killed
A lot to read.
An excerpt:


> It was a medical nightmare to begin with, says Jay Hoofnagle, who as the leader of the NIH study has become the target of most of this scrutiny. Then it was an emotional and personal nightmare. Now it's becoming an administrative, legal type of nightmare. It's been very tough.
> 
> It may get even tougher. The drug in question--fialuridine, or FIAU--is a chemical cousin to several of the most prominent AIDS drugs today, including AZT and ddI, as well as several being tested in clinical trials right now. The FIAU fiasco has already irrevocably changed the way we think about clinical trials in this country; it may also irrevocably change the way we conduct them.


IMO, it's much safer to get the vaccination, wear a mask and observe common sense than rely on a treatment whose long term side effect might result in cancer.

BTW, there appears to be some kind of association between the CEO of Ridgeback and Trump in the past.
Scary, eh?

Interesting reading:
https://www.darwinresearch.com/our-...virs-promise-as-potential-covid-19-treatment/
..............
* Drug Companies Continue to Shed Liability for Rushed Coronavirus Treatments *
https://theintercept.com/2020/08/28/coronavirus-vaccine-prep-act/


> Consider an experimental antiviral drug known as EIDD-2801, which Dr. Rick Bright said he was pressured to fund when he was head of BARDA. According to a whistleblower complaint he filed in May, EIDD-2801 was presented to Bright last fall as a "miracle cure" for influenza, even though the antiviral hadn't yet been tested in humans. Bright, an expert in infectious diseases, expressed concern about the drug because similar ones in its class had caused serious reproductive problems in animals, with animals exposed in the womb born without teeth and with partially formed skulls.


EIDD-2801 sound familiar?
That's an active ingredient of Merck's 'game changer.



> Meanwhile, in the U.S., the precedent for waiving liability during the pandemic has already been set. Trump has said that the approval of a vaccine by Election Day "wouldn't hurt" his chances against Democratic presidential nominee Joe Biden.


So there were at least two considerations to allowing fast tracking.
Trump's elect ability.
Profits from harmful drugs protected.

So far, I haven't heard a 'peep' from the death cult supporting Trump.
They are a death cult, so why would they object?


----------



## Johnny b

What responsible scientists have been subjected to.

* 'I hope you die': how the COVID pandemic unleashed attacks on scientists *
https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-021-02741-x


----------



## Johnny b

More on Merck's 'game changer' molnupiravir.

* Storm brews over 46x price markup of Merck's Thor-inspired COVID pill *
https://arstechnica.com/science/202...reatment-hammered-for-700-price-a-46x-markup/

excerpts:
(content edited for excessive volume. There are too many important facts to list them all, so please read the article in it's entirety.



> Molnupiravir was developed by researchers at Emory University with an estimated $35 million in federal funds, including grants from the National Institutes of Health and the Defense Department.
> ......................
> Pharmaceutical company Ridgeback Biotherapeutics bought the rights to the drug in early 2020 and partnered with Merck a few months later.





> ............ As Business Insider notes, the US government pays $2,100 for an infusion of Regeneron's COVID-19 antibody cocktail and $3,200 for a five-day intravenous course of Gilead Sciences' antiviral remdesivir.
> 
> ...............
> The highly effective and safe COVID-19 vaccines-which can prevent hospitalizations, deaths, disease spread, and the need for all of these pricy drugs-range in price from $10 to $40 per shot in the US.


Merck's drug began development at Emory University.
George Painter credited for the work.
Ridgeback bought the rights to it.
Ridgeback partnered with Merck on the drug.
Testing was facilitated by Ridgeback......where Painter's wife, Wendy Painter, is the Chief Medical Officer.
( A guy develops a drug, his wife oversees testing and the profit potential of a drug that kills a virus by causing vast mutations ( that can also happen in 'mammalian cells') is enormous.....what could go wrong with only 28 days of testing?
see page 4 in posted .pdf )


----------



## Johnny b

BTW, the Covid Prep Act provides immunity from liability.

https://www.phe.gov/Preparedness/legal/prepact/Pages/default.aspx

Such as a mutation causing a tumor or cancer in the future, from a Covid-19 drug.


----------



## Johnny b

The FDA hearings on molnupiravir are expected to be live streamed on Youtube.

* 
FDA to Hold Advisory Committee Meeting to Discuss Merck and Ridgeback's EUA Application for COVID-19 Oral Treatment*

https://www.fda.gov/news-events/pre...-and-ridgebacks-eua-application-covid-19-oral



> The FDA intends to live stream the AMDAC meeting on the agency's YouTube page; the meeting will also be webcast from the FDA website.


https://www.youtube.com/user/usfoodanddrugadmin?app=desktop&form=MY01SV&OCID=MY01SV


----------



## Johnny b

* Brazil's Bolsonaro accused of "crimes against humanity" over COVID response *
https://arstechnica.com/science/202...-crimes-against-humanity-over-covid-response/


----------



## Wino

Got some more that should be added to that list - DJT, BoJo, DeSantis, Abbott, along with several other governors that can't govern. Unfortunately, justice will go unserved, I fear.


----------



## Johnny b

Looks like Bill Maher just joined the ranks of pinhead nutjob deniers and Fox News fake claims.

* Bill Maher rails against COVID restrictions: It's time to admit pandemic is 'over' *
https://www.foxnews.com/entertainment/bill-maher-covid-restrictions-coronavirus-pandemic-over



> "I know some people seem to not want to give up on the wonderful pandemic, but you know what? It's over."


IMO, an example of why the pandemic persists in the US to a greater degree than any other nation.
Denial of reality.


----------



## Martial33

well I posted this before and it got me banned. Admins said they didn't like the links, so I have pulled the links out, you will have to look them up yourself. I'll give you a hint, this info will not be found on facebook or youtube, probably not even google. that should get you started.
_______________

1) FDA admits there is no isolate of so called COVID19; Exact words;

_"Since no quantified virus isolates of the 2019-nCoV are currently available, assays [diagnostic tests] designed for detection of the 2019-nCoV RNA were tested with characterized stocks of in vitro transcribed full length RNA…" _page 41 of this document

2) Dr Kary Mullis, invented the PCR test 40 years ago during his work with AIDS patients. He admits on camera that his test cannot tell if one "has something or not" All it was meant to do it magnify cells and only 7 times magnification (cycles) whereas technicians today routinely cycle the machines 30-40 times which skews results. Muliis also called out Fauci on several occasions.

Dr Mullis won a Nobel Prize for his PCR test.

1 & 2 above mean we don't have a virus and we don't have a test. In a "normal murder case" this case would be thrown out of court for lack of evidence, and it has been in many cases. Alberta Canada had to drop mandates because of lack of evidence. There are many court cases world wide in progress now.

3) President of Tanzania John Magufuli tested Goats, Sheep, Fruits, Motor oil, even clean unused swabs came back "positive" (*)

4) Brandy Vaughan was a Merck Executive selling drugs to hospitals around the world until she learned the truth. Then she started learntherisk .org find the last video she made. you won't believe it. its not on her website, you have to look at other video sharing platforms to find it.

What do these people all have in common? THEY'RE ALL DEAD UNDER MYSTERIOUS CIRCUMSTANCES!

BUT WAIT KIDS, THERE'S MORE!

In fact any president of a country who refused the vaccines, all dead! Have a look on alternative, uncensored video platforms.

*President John of Tanzinia was replaced by a Muslim woman who also works for The World Economic Forum.

COVID19 = Certificate of Vaccination ID. 19 represents the 1st and 9th letters A! (Artificial Intelligence) which is the means of which they intend to control everyone once vaccinated.

Further research;

New World Order (book) (free PDF also available)

The Fourth Industrial Revolution (free PDF book) by Klaus Schwab, Founder of the World Economic Forum

------------

pm me if you want the linked version, although, IDK just posting this without the links could get me banned again. I know PM's in facebook are monitored as well so they might not even allow such PMs. If I don't reply its because they banned me again or because they don't allow such pms, like China. They don't allow social media there or much else for that matter.

Imagine being banned because you posted your views in a "controversial forum" lmao


----------



## Johnny b

Martial33 said:


> well I posted this before and it got me banned.................


And I started rebutting your BS while it got banned.
Just to be clear, I didn't report you.

You appear to be just another pathetic denier with a list of misinformation ( aka lies to many people )

And it starts with this rebuttal:
https://www.reuters.com/article/uk-...at-that-sars-cov-2-doesnt-exist-idUSKBN27633R


----------



## Wino

> What do these people all have in common?* THEY'RE ALL DEAD UNDER MYSTERIOUS CIRCUMSTANCES!*


I suspect from COVID.😢


----------



## Wino

Johnny b said:


> And I started rebutting your BS while it got banned.
> Just to be clear, I didn't report you.
> 
> You appear to be just another pathetic denier with a list of misinformation ( aka lies to many people )
> 
> And it starts with this rebuttal:
> https://www.reuters.com/article/uk-...at-that-sars-cov-2-doesnt-exist-idUSKBN27633R


 johnny - I was so looking forward to your response !!!


----------



## Johnny b

Martial33 said:


> ..............................I'll give you a hint, this info will not be found on facebook or youtube, probably not even google. ...................


Looks like you lost that hint with your very first claim.



> 2) Dr Kary Mullis, invented the PCR test 40 years ago during his work with AIDS patients. He admits on camera that his test cannot tell if one "has something or not" All it was meant to do it magnify cells and only 7 times magnification (cycles) whereas technicians today routinely cycle the machines 30-40 times which skews results. Muliis also called out Fauci on several occasions.
> 
> Dr Mullis won a Nobel Prize for his PCR test.


Mullis died before Sars-CoV2 was even known so couldn't have had any experience with Covid-19 or a dialog with Dr Fauci about it.....and he has a questionable history in science as noted in the following link:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kary_Mullis



> 1 & 2 above mean we don't have a virus and we don't have a test.


So far, all it means is what I expressed in my above post 
https://forums.techguy.org/threads/coronavirus-spread-to-eu-usa.1239391/post-9850803
is correct.
You appear to be just another pathetic denier with a list of misinformation ( aka lies to many people )


----------



## Johnny b

Wino said:


> johnny - I was so looking forward to your response !!!


lol.
It's amazing how gullible some of these deniers think of their audience.
Like Jack claiming masks were useless and posting a link to prove his point.
The link wasn't just supportive of using masks, it claimed N95 and surgical masks reduced 80% of Sars transmission.

Remember the early claims that masks were concentrating CO2 in us?
Later they claimed the masks are too porous to filter the virus Sars-CoV2.

However, the Sars-CoV2 virus is considerably bigger than a CO2 molecule.

https://www.fi.edu/blog/Your-Mask-Questions-Answered 


> Remember how the coronavirus is about 0.1 microns wide? A molecule of carbon dioxide is about 0.00033 microns wide, and oxygen is about the same-almost a thousand times smaller.


It's the old Hitler /Stalinist trick of repeating a lie often enough that it becomes believed.


----------



## Johnny b

Martial33 said:


> well I posted this before and it got me banned................
> 
> 3) President of Tanzania John Magufuli tested Goats, Sheep, Fruits, Motor oil, even clean unused swabs came back "positive" (*)
> ....................


Again BS.
https://www.reuters.com/article/us-...oronavirus-kits-after-goat-test-idUSKBN22F0KF

The issue was faulty test kits.


----------



## Johnny b

Martial33 said:


> well I posted this before and it got me banned. ...................
> 
> .....................
> 
> 4) Brandy Vaughan was a Merck Executive selling drugs to hospitals around the world until she learned the truth. Then she started learntherisk .org find the last video she made. you won't believe it. its not on her website, you have to look at other video sharing platforms to find it.
> 
> What do these people all have in common? THEY'RE ALL DEAD UNDER MYSTERIOUS CIRCUMSTANCES!
> .......................


Vaughan was a sales rep for Merck who became an anti-vaxxer and died from a blood clot in her brain.
Her issues with Merck originated from the pain killer Vioxx that was eventually removed from sales because it was shown to be unsafe.

https://www.independent.com/2021/02...vaxxer-brandy-vaughan-died-of-natural-causes/

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brandy_Vaughan

Nothing mysterious there or elsewhere.


----------



## Johnny b

Martial33 said:


> well I posted this before and it got me banned. ..................
> 
> ...............
> In fact any president of a country who refused the vaccines, all dead! Have a look on alternative, uncensored video platforms.
> ....................................


Yeah, I'm calling BS on this one also 

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news...ims-leaders-deaths-vaccines-false/7931318002/


----------



## Johnny b

Martial33 said:


> well I posted this before and it got me banned. ...........
> 
> *President John of Tanzinia was replaced by a Muslim woman who also works for The World Economic Forum.


You are aware she was the Vice President?

Sounds like his anti-vaxx stance ended his life with Covid-19.
His government claimed a heart condition, which is common with Covid-19
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Magufuli

All in all, he sounded much like a dictator.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Magufuli#Human_rights


----------



## Johnny b

Martial33 said:


> well I posted this before and it got me banned...................
> _______________
> 
> .................
> 
> Further research;
> 
> New World Order (book) (free PDF also available)
> 
> The Fourth Industrial Revolution (free PDF book) by Klaus Schwab, Founder of the World Economic Forum


Why research an off topic diversion?

Schwab:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Klaus_Schwab#Capture_of_democratic_structures_and_institutions


> According to the Transnational Institute (TNI), the Forum is hence planning to replace a recognised democratic model with a model where a self-selected group of "stakeholders" make decisions on behalf of the people.[29] The think tank summarises that we are increasingly entering a world where gatherings such as Davos are "a silent global coup d'etat" to capture governance.


Sounds a lot like fascism.
We already had much of that with Trump and look how badly his term inoffice ended.


----------



## Johnny b

Martial33 said:


> well I posted this before and it got me banned..............
> 
> ................
> 
> pm me if you want the linked version, although, IDK just posting this without the links could get me banned again. I know PM's in facebook are monitored as well so they might not even allow such PMs. If I don't reply its because they banned me again or because they don't allow such pms, like China. They don't allow social media there or much else for that matter.
> 
> Imagine being banned because you posted your views in a "controversial forum" ...


Well...you do post BS. lol!


----------



## Johnny b

> What do these people all have in common?* THEY'RE ALL DEAD UNDER MYSTERIOUS CIRCUMSTANCES!*





Wino said:


> I suspect from COVID.😢


Some did, some didn't, some didn't even die lol.

But it did increase my post count.
(shocking, just shocking I tell you  )


----------



## Wino

I expect you are way past me in post count when your old persona included ! 😤


----------



## Johnny b

It's a knack...........


----------



## Johnny b

Martial33 said:


> well I posted this before and it got me banned. ............
> 
> ....................
> COVID19 = Certificate of Vaccination ID. 19 represents the 1st and 9th letters A! (Artificial Intelligence) which is the means of which they intend to control everyone once vaccinated.
> ..................


How in the world did I miss this one?
Must of been when I fell out of my chair in laughter?

No....the '19' represents the year Sars-CoV2 was discovered.

https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/201...epidemiology/identifying-source-outbreak.html



> This new coronavirus is similar to SARS-CoV, so it was named SARS-CoV-2 The disease caused by the virus was named COVID-19 (COronVIrusDisease-2019) to show that it was discovered in 2019.


Don't feel too bad, even Dr. Drew ( Pinsky ) got it wrong.

But 'AI' is a new one lol!

 lol!


----------



## Cookiegal

Martial33 said:


> Imagine being banned because you posted your views in a "controversial forum" lmao


It wasn't for posting your views it was for posting links to a site that has inappropriate content for a family-friendly site. Inapproriate content is not opposing views. Consider yourself lucky you didn't get yet another infraction for using profanity at the end of your last sentence that I quoted. LMAO is allowed but I edited the offending letter out. Even if used in the form of an acronym or disguised with stars or symbols profanity is still not permitted.


----------



## Cookiegal

Johnny b said:


> It's a knack...........


it's a curse.  Just kidding.


----------



## Johnny b

I remember quoting that line, so I edited out the offending term.


----------



## Cookiegal

Johnny b said:


> I remember quoting that line, so I edited out the offending term.


Thanks but just to clarify it's only the "F" that needs to go, the LMAO is OK.


----------



## Johnny b

Just wiping his smile off


----------



## Cookiegal

LOL! Fs are orbidden here.


----------



## Couriant

Cookiegal said:


> LOL! Fs are orbidden here.


Unless you are in a game, then it has a different meaning


----------



## Cookiegal

Couriant said:


> Unless you are in a game, then it has a different meaning


You must be talking about "ibbage"


----------



## Couriant

Cookiegal said:


> You must be talking about "ibbage"


Haha no it's from a game where you press the F key to do the command Pay Respect to someone that died and it's kinda grown from there and you may see it in game forums


----------



## Cookiegal

👍


----------



## Johnny b

* Covid Gets Even Redder *
https://www.nytimes.com/2021/11/08/briefing/covid-death-toll-red-america.html



> In October, 25 out of every 100,000 residents of heavily Trump counties died from Covid, more than three times higher than the rate in heavily Biden counties (7.8 per 100,000). October was the fifth consecutive month that the percentage gap between the death rates in Trump counties and Biden counties widened.


----------



## Johnny b

* Big Bird got his Pfizer shot, and conservatives are calling it vaccine 'propaganda' *
https://www.washingtonpost.com/nation/2021/11/08/ted-cruz-big-bird-vaccine-tweet/

It probably won't be long before Cruz and Greene claim Big Bird is a commie sympathizer.
Who knew?


----------



## Johnny b

* 38% of US adults believe government is faking COVID-19 death toll *
https://arstechnica.com/science/202...eve-government-is-faking-covid-19-death-toll/



> OAN, Newsmax viewers are the most misinformed about COVID, survey data finds.
> 
> New survey data from the Kaiser Family Foundation (KFF) spotlights just how monstrous the problem of misinformation is.























> Belief in misinformation was highest in those who reported trusting conservative new sources.


----------



## valis

Good grief....


----------



## Cookiegal

Anti-vaxxers stooped to a new low interrupting Remembrance Day event in B.C.

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/brit...vaccine-mandates-protest-kelowna-bc-1.6246356


----------



## Johnny b

Anti-vaxxers and Covid deaths in Germany :

* Anti-Vaxxers Are Plunging Germany Into a COVID Death Spiral *
https://news.yahoo.com/anti-vaxxers-plunging-germany-covid-093010674.html

No matter the country, no matter their politics ( including the US ),
how many people will die needlessly before common sense and medical science are embraced by all?

SARS CoV2 is killing us.....with the help of anti-vaxxers.


----------



## Chawbacon

Johnny b said:


> * Covid Gets Even Redder *
> https://www.nytimes.com/2021/11/08/briefing/covid-death-toll-red-america.html


So It's all the Trump supporters fault! NO indication of cyclical geographic Covid-19 infection rates, eh?


----------



## Johnny b

Chawbacon said:


> So It's all the Trump supporters fault! NO indication of cyclical geographic Covid-19 infection rates, eh?


All?
Why are you arguing an absolute?
The article I posted wasn't an absolute in addressing the spread of Covid-19 infections as to any singular cause.
Perhaps you didn't read it?
Or maybe you didn't understand the content?

It did express the spread of the infection in terms that definitely pressed your guilt button 

You guys out there in denial land are simply getting infected at a higher rate ( that's 'rate' like infections per 1000 ).

Trump lost the election. Get over it


----------



## Couriant

Can't get past the paywall for that article. I even used Edge *shudder* and it wouldn't prompt me for anything. I know something is meant to be showing though....


----------



## Johnny b

Couriant said:


> Can't get past the paywall for that article. I even used Edge *shudder* and it wouldn't prompt me for anything. I know something is meant to be showing though....


I'm using Firefox with NoScript set to block everything at that NYT site.


----------



## Johnny b

Chawbacon said:


> So It's all the Trump supporters fault! NO indication of cyclical geographic Covid-19 infection rates, eh?


It does seem reasonable to question the decisions made by you deniers when articles like that NYTs (edit: spelling) appear.
And then this:

* A flood of covid patients causes 'almost unmanageable strain' in Michigan as cases rise nationwide *
( a repost from the Washington Post)
https://news.yahoo.com/flood-covid-patients-causes-almost-150813393.html


> A flood of mostly unvaccinated covid-19 patients was arriving at emergency departments already packed with people suffering other medical issues, sending capacity to unprecedented levels. The only hesitation for Spectrum's decision-makers? Data suggested the covid surge was not over.
> 
> The unvaccinated made up about three-quarters of cases, hospitalizations and deaths in the 30 days ending Nov. 5, according to the state health department.


Let's face reality. Most of the unvaccinated, all the deniers and those guilty of misinformation do seem an enemy to society.

A bizarre death cult.
Their actions are intentional, not accidental.


----------



## Johnny b

* Stock market news live updates: Wall Street tumbles as new COVID variant fans lockdown fears *
https://finance.yahoo.com/news/stock-market-news-live-updates-november-26-2021-125443465.html



> U.S. stocks slumped Friday, with global markets rattled by a new coronavirus variant discovered in South Africa, which fanned concerns that new growth-crushing lockdowns could be imposed.


* A new Covid-19 variant could show immune evasion and enhanced transmissibility, South African scientists warn *
https://www.cnn.com/2021/11/25/worl...ca-immune-evasion-transmissibility/index.html



> South Africa's health minister announced Thursday the discovery of a new coronavirus variant that appears to be spreading rapidly in parts of the country.
> 
> During a news briefing, genomic scientists said the variant has an unusually high number of mutations, with more than 30 in the key spike protein -- the structure the virus uses to get into the cells they attack.


----------



## Johnny b

Interesting article from the British media.

We have our death cult and apparently so do the British.
We have the Joe Rogans and Alex Joneses.
They have Juliet Samuel.

* We need to take back our lives from the permanent Covid panic-mongers  *
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2021/11/26/need-take-back-lives-permanent-covid-panic-mongers/

Translation: Quit whining about safety, live free, go take your chances with a deadly disease that has been killing millions worldwide.

If you think I'm exaggerating, here's another posting by Samuel:

* Covid has robbed us of the ability to weigh up risk  *
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2021/02/12/covid-has-robbed-us-ability-weigh-risk/

With comments like this during a pandemic that's obviously not over:


> Even compared with the last century, it looks relatively mild.


It's easy to put her in the denial column.
True, slicker than Rogan, especially Jones (  ) imo, an authoritative and dangerous influencer.


----------



## Wino

Anti-Vaxx / COVID deniers - all enemies of the state or serial killers run amok???🤪


----------



## Johnny b

Rand Paul wants 'you' to believe that 'gain of function', in context to the NIH and virology, is evil.
'Context' is the issue.
Weaponization is a gain of function. A military endeavor.
So is studying the effects of potential combinations of mutations in regards to severity and vaccine resistance. An endeavor of the NIH.

Here is an article about the latest concerns about Omicron.

* Omicron Carries Scary Mutations. That Doesn't Mean They Work Well Together. *
https://news.yahoo.com/omicron-carries-scary-mutations-doesnt-130352918.html

The reason why researchers need to address 'gain of function'.
It's not to weaponize, it's to discover the strengths and weaknesses of potential mutations and a means to address and create new vaccines.
Researchers aren't synthesizing new mutations, they are studying what happens with combinations, what to expect and potential paths to vaccine development to address new variants.

Among other things, Paul is an anti-vaxxer.
Infected with SARS-CoV2, he ignored being quarantined.
He has even promoted ignoring the Delta variant.
https://www.courier-journal.com/sto...people-ignore-cdc-covid-19-surges/5540281001/

Paul is also a Senator that supports Trump, many of Trump's lies and that sedition and insurrection on Jan 6th wasn't much more than a rally.

Third world banana republic here we come.


----------



## Johnny b

Chawbacon said:


> So It's all the Trump supporters fault! NO indication of cyclical geographic Covid-19 infection rates, eh?
> 
> View attachment 292378


Are you feeling guilty about your false claim, that masks do practically nothing ?
Or how about the support for the use of unproven drugs and substances?

There should be and probably are a lot of deniers questioning the logic and false claims they've embraced.

So far, the results of denial and misinformation:

* 
 Untangling Disinformation 

Pro-Trump counties now have far higher COVID death rates. Misinformation is to blame
*
https://www.npr.org/sections/health...isinformation-trump-counties-covid-death-rate

Posted are the results, but this stands out:


> Recent polling data that show Republicans are now the largest group of unvaccinated individuals in the United States, more than any other single demographic group. Polling also shows that mistrust in official sources of information and exposure to misinformation, about both COVID-19 and the vaccines, run high among Republicans.


You posted:


> So It's all the Trump supporters fault!


That is where most of the denials and misinformation are generated.
Even you have participated in it.


----------



## Johnny b

More absurdities from the death cult element of the Trump Party.

* Medics slam Rep. Matt Gaetz for saying COVID-19 is the best way to protect against getting COVID-19 *

https://www.businessinsider.com/matt-gaetz-slammed-said-getting-covid-best-protection-2021-12



> "The best vaccine we've found is mother nature's vaccine. It's contracting the virus," Gaetz told the far-right One America News Network. "That is what has provided the greatest protection, the most durable protection, over the longest period of time."


I read this and Pete's rantings..... and the imagery I see is of civilization coming to an end.

edit:


> "Since the vaccines became widely available, the rate of dying from COVID is 50% higher in red states, than in blue states," he told the network "For the Record" show on Sunday, referring to a NPR study published Sunday.
> 
> "Even on the most base cynical level you would think that these Republican politicians would want to keep their constituents, their voters, alive."


Death cults .


----------



## Wino

Known as "Enhancement of One's Own Demise"!

Death Cults, indeed!


----------



## Johnny b

And more..............an interesting opinion piece.

* Republican Idiot Brigade Debuts Dumbest COVID Claims Yet *
https://www.vanityfair.com/news/202...marjorie-taylor-greene-matt-gaetz-ron-johnson



> Unfortunately, since the pandemic has lasted longer than anyone could have imagined, conservatives have had to up their game re: the absurd things coming out of their mouths, from just stupid to historically moronic.


----------



## Couriant

Well his friends at Fox claims the Omicron is made up by the left...

https://www.forbes.com/sites/brucel...ronavirus-variant-is-made-up/?sh=4f1281a74048

I mean... really? Do we really want more of this insanity? I have watched it and it's scary that people would believe that drivvel.


----------



## Johnny b

Couriant said:


> Well his friends at Fox claims the Omicron is made up by the left...
> 
> https://www.forbes.com/sites/brucel...ronavirus-variant-is-made-up/?sh=4f1281a74048
> 
> I mean... really? Do we really want more of this insanity? I have watched it and it's scary that people would believe that drivvel.


I read the article.

Depressing.

Ours is a society self destructing from accepted lies and ignorance.
There have always been small factions that reject reality, but Fox has taken on the role of teaching it's propaganda to a wide audience, and many, like Peter, buy it hook line and sinker no matter how insane the lessons. Just add emotionalism to the equation and control of minds escalate as the message becomes more and more bizarre.
I've read his posts several times. He rejects all logic. All evidence contrary to his current mind set. And he rejects it out of hand claiming a superior intellect.

Generating ignorance has even become a cottage industry.

A technological society won't prosper driven by ignorance.
Even an agrarian economy suffers. The Russian Lysenko proved that.

We're becoming a nation of fools.


----------



## Chawbacon

Johnny b said:


> Are you feeling guilty about your false claim, that masks do practically nothing ?


I stand by my statement the masks do practically nothing when used as a preventative of spreading/contracting Covid19. Let's start with a study by the NIH on mask mandates...


> Efficacy of Generalized Face Masking Mandates (nih.gov)
> 
> ... *Face masks certainly help against Covid-19 infection. However, their benefits are presently overestimated, while their risks are unnoticed. Generalized mask-wearing policies for Covid-19 applying to anyone in public spaces no matter the specific circumstances ignore the scientific evidence gathered before the Covid-19 emergence and during the pandemic.* No randomized controlled trial has been conducted to prove the current face mask policies are effective for Covid-19. There could be more benefits from targeted rather than generalized uses of face masks.
> 
> It is the conclusion of this letter based on a survey of literature and COVID-19 cases and fatalities of different countries that generalized *mask mandates are excessive and inefficient, and targeted uses of masks could deliver much better results.*


Now I am a big enough person to acknowledge the reference of masks helping against Covid-19 infection; however, I fail to really see how after reading paragraph, after paragraph, after paragraph of information within this study clarifying that facemasks are essentially useless as a preventative for Covid-19. 

Also in this study you find the following statement:


> If we compare the countries of West Europe which did not mandate face masks, for example, Sweden, Finland, Norway, Denmark, Iceland, to other countries such as the United Kingdom, Ireland, Belgium, Germany, or the Netherlands, that adopted generalized face masking policies, there is no increase in the number of cases or the number of fatalities (Figure 1).
> 
> 
> [IMG alt="An external file that holds a picture, illustration, etc.
> Object name is 10.1177_23333928211058023-fig1.jpg"]https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC8586184/bin/10.1177_23333928211058023-fig1.jpg[/IMG]


 So my question to you still stands Johnny... *If facemasks work, then why are they not working?*



Johnny b said:


> Or how about the support for the use of unproven drugs and substances?


I also stand by my statement that there are therapeutics that have a great effect on the severity of Covid19. How about one of your NIH studies on ivermectin... 


> Ivermectin for Prevention and Treatment of COVID-19 Infection: A Systematic Review, Meta-analysis, and Trial Sequential Analysis to Inform Clinical Guidelines (nih.gov)
> 
> *Conclusions:*
> Moderate-certainty evidence finds that *large reductions in COVID-19 deaths are possible using ivermectin.* Using ivermectin early in the clinical course may reduce numbers progressing to severe disease. The apparent safety and low cost suggest that ivermectin is likely to have a significant impact on the SARS-CoV-2 pandemic globally...
> 
> ... Since the start of the SARS-CoV-2 pandemic, both observational and randomized studies have evaluated ivermectin as a treatment for, and as prophylaxis against, COVID-19 infection. A review by the Front Line COVID-19 Critical Care Alliance summarized findings from 27 studies on the effects of ivermectin for the prevention and treatment of COVID-19 infection, concluding that ivermectin "demonstrates a strong signal of therapeutic efficacy" against COVID-19.9 Another recent review found that ivermectin reduced deaths by 75%.10 *Despite these findings, the National Institutes of Health in the United States recently stated that "there are insufficient data to recommend either for or against the use of ivermectin for the treatment of COVID-19,"11 and the World Health Organization recommends against its use outside of clinical trials.12...*
> 
> ... Given the evidence of efficacy, safety, low cost, and current death rates, ivermectin is likely to have an impact on health and economic outcomes of the pandemic across many countries. Ivermectin is not a new and experimental drug with an unknown safety profile. *It is a WHO "Essential Medicine" already used in several different indications, in colossal cumulative volumes.* Corticosteroids have become an accepted standard of care in COVID-19, based on a single RCT of dexamethasone.1 If a single RCT is sufficient for the adoption of dexamethasone, then a fortiori the evidence of 2 dozen RCTs supports the adoption of ivermectin.


Oh Wait... Are you not the one that keeps demeaning anyone that supports the use, or even consideration, of ivermectin as a moron that takes horse de-wormers?

It's not your fault Johnny that you have been lied to by multiple departments within the U.S. Government. However, if you continue to turn a blind eye to actual real data, I will continue to call out the obtuse nature of the anticipated rebuttals when I can find time to do so.

Now I am sure that you will go and find some far-left fact checkers to contradict this study and/or belittle the authors, the website, their donation sources, spam responses to bury this post, or tie-in some CAGW nonsense to support an equally unfathomable response; but, I will at least consider your ramblings. 🧐


----------



## Johnny b

Chawbacon said:


> I stand by my statement the masks do practically nothing when used as a preventative of spreading/contracting Covid19. Let's start with a study by the NIH on mask mandates...
> 
> Now I am a big enough person to acknowledge the reference of masks helping against Covid-19 infection; however, I fail to really see how after reading paragraph, after paragraph, after paragraph of information within this study clarifying that facemasks are essentially useless as a preventative for Covid-19.
> 
> Also in this study you find the following statement:
> 
> So my question to you still stands Johnny... *If facemasks work, then why are they not working?*
> 
> I also stand by my statement that there are therapeutics that have a great effect on the severity of Covid19. How about one of your NIH studies on ivermectin...
> 
> Oh Wait... Are you not the one that keeps demeaning anyone that supports the use, or even consideration, of ivermectin as a moron that takes horse de-wormers?
> 
> It's not your fault Johnny that you have been lied to by multiple departments within the U.S. Government. However, if you continue to turn a blind eye to actual real data, I will continue to call out the obtuse nature of the anticipated rebuttals when I can find time to do so.
> 
> Now I am sure that you will go and find some far-left fact checkers to contradict this study and/or belittle the authors, the website, their donation sources, spam responses to bury this post, or tie-in some CAGW nonsense to support an equally unfathomable response; but, I will at least consider your ramblings. 🧐





> I stand by my statement the masks do practically nothing when used as a preventative of spreading/contracting Covid19.


And yet the source you used as proof of that position stated otherwise.
This is just another case of you headline hunting and not reading all of the source you claim as an authority.
That article did present an 80% reduction in SARS transmission.



> Let's start with a study by the NIH on mask mandates...


Do you understand what the letters 'NIH' stand for? National Institutes for health.
To quote an NIH study, you need to actually quote the NIH.
You didn't.
The article was generated by Alberto Boretti and posted at PubMed, part of the NIH.
It's not an NIH study.

And even though he questions the efficiency of masks, he DOES NOT support your claim that masks do nothing.

Your claim:


> I stand by my statement the masks do practically nothing when used as a preventative of spreading/contracting Covid19.


 And no one has ever claimed wearing a mask gives 100% protection.
But they definitely reduce the viral load a person might experience, which you deny when you claim they do nothing. 
And even using common sense, reducing that viral load is a positive for resisting infection.

Jack. Truly. You've never been good with semantics and sophistry.



> Now I am a big enough person to acknowledge the reference of masks helping against Covid-19 infection; .....................


No, you don't seem to be, at all Jack.
You only argue in a way that promotes Covid infection.



> ..............however, I fail to really see how after reading paragraph, after paragraph, after paragraph of information within this study clarifying that facemasks are essentially useless as a preventative for Covid-19.


It's your political position, Jack.



> Also in this study ( edit: which is posted at a PubMed library ) you find the following statement:


Interesting, however, in the US, it's noted that death and infection statistics tend to be greater in Republican led States where health practices are refused to a greater degree.
That includes the issue of masks and vaccines.
So, there are obviously cultural and political considerations when trying to compare to foreign nations.



> So my question to you still stands Johnny... *If facemasks work, then why are they not working?*


Better question: Why do you keep posting misinformation?



> I also stand by my statement that there are therapeutics that have a great effect on the severity of Covid19.


Please share the info.



> How about one of your NIH studies on ivermectin.


Well......there was this:
* Large Ivermectin Study Retracted *
https://www.medpagetoday.com/special-reports/exclusives/93658

* Huge study supporting ivermectin as Covid treatment withdrawn over ethical concerns *
https://www.theguardian.com/science...vid-treatment-withdrawn-over-ethical-concerns

Jack. You need to quit watching/reading those rightwing media outlets.
It's not healthy.



> Oh Wait... Are you not the one that keeps demeaning anyone that supports the use, or even consideration, of ivermectin as a moron that takes horse de-wormers?


Jack, that attitude is just so sad. Truly.
Has life been that hard for you?
Don't take the path that BannedPeter traveled. He's wasted a large portion of his life with conspiracy theories and denials.



> It's not your fault Johnny that you have been lied to by multiple departments within the U.S. Government.


Well, Trump is gone for now.
So things should get better but it takes time to undo the damage he left behind.
To topic, I suggest you listen to real medical experts and scientists.
And not just one or two. Because they don't all agree.
Let the science sort it out.
Playing the Lysenko card didn't work for the Communists, what makes you think it'll work for the fascist element of the Trump Party?



> However, if you continue to turn a blind eye to actual real data, I will continue to call out the obtuse nature of the anticipated rebuttals when I can find time to do so.


lol. You make me smile 



> I will at least consider your ramblings.


lol.


----------



## Johnny b

* Tucker Carlson Has A Misogynistic New Take On What COVID-19 Does To People *
https://news.yahoo.com/tucker-carlson-misogynistic-covid-19-034111982.html



> Fox News host Tucker Carlson's misogyny was on full display Wednesday as he declared COVID-19 "feminizes" and emasculates those it infects.


I'm wondering who would believe him.
And why.


----------



## Johnny b

Chawbacon said:


> I stand by my statement the masks do practically nothing when used as a preventative of spreading/contracting Covid19. ....
> 
> .........................
> So my question to you still stands Johnny... *If facemasks work, then why are they not working?
> 
> ...................*
> .....................


Jack, you've been standing on shaky statements since at least your false claims of mobile WMD bio labs in Iraq.

Time passes, more becomes known, which don't seem to support those rants.

Just out:



> *Japan researchers use ostrich cells to make glowing COVID-19 detection masks*


https://www.reuters.com/business/he...-glowing-covid-19-detection-masks-2021-12-10/

I hope you read this article, Jack.
In an effort to become informed.

Wearing a mask of this type would help reduce the spread of SARS-CoV2.

And as discussed elsewhere, wearing a mask does reduce the risk of the wearer being infected. 
You argue in conflict with the authoritative sources you presented in previous rants.
True, you obviously didn't plan it that way. 
But actually reading all of that earlier NIH link would have helped you understand why wearing masks have a positive effect in reducing the risk of infection.

There's nothing positive about denial. (  )


----------



## Johnny b

Fox News.
More like a hub for a political death cult.

* Fox News Host Advises Viewers Against Boosters as COVID Rages *
https://www.thedailybeast.com/fox-n...vises-viewers-against-boosters-as-covid-rages



> As the Omicron variant rips through the country and New York City experiences a record surge in COVID-19 cases headed into the holidays, public health officials have one big message for all Americans over 16 years old: Get your booster right now.
> 
> But Fox News viewers got a very different message when they tuned in to _The Five_ on Friday afternoon. According to the channel's self-described comedy host, you're better off with "nature's vaccination."


"self-described comedy host"
At the beginning of another wave of intense SARS-CoV-2 infection on a world scale, a Fox News host just made light of suffering and death and suggesting the only way to avoid it is to get infected.

Gutfeld:


> "If you urge a booster for Omicron, does that mean you are actually going to end up preventing a more effective kind of vaccination, 'nature's vaccination,' which would raise the natural immunity," Gutfeld said, adding that this would be "in a safe way" despite the clear increased risk for people who contract the virus without a booster.


That's not funny.
It's insanity.


----------



## Johnny b

And now some insanity from the CDC:

* CDC releases new guidance to allow children exposed to coronavirus to attend school *
https://www.reuters.com/world/us/cd...en-exposed-covid-19-attend-school-2021-12-17/



> The U.S. Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC) released a new strategy called "test-to-stay" that allows unvaccinated children to stay in school even if they have been exposed to the coronavirus, agency Director Rochelle Walensky said on Friday.


----------



## Johnny b

Insanity in the Ohio State Legislature:

* As COVID cases rise, Ohio lawmakers stand by decision to limit governor's health orders *
https://abc6onyourside.com/news/loc...overnor-mike-dewines-health-orders-12-17-2021

Does anyone really wonder why the US leads the world in Covid-19 infections and deaths?


----------



## Wino

Ran across this chart yesterday. Pretty much explains why orange ogre let COVID slide initially since it was killing off lefties in New York and Cali. Then as he ignored, the worm turned and now it's his worshipers. I'm not sure of the validity of the numbers, but makes sense to me. Death Cult, indeed.


----------



## Johnny b

More and more is being outed of Trump's involvement in an early intentional ineffective pandemic response.

* Trump sought to 'undermine' COVID-19 response, says panel *
https://thehill.com/homenews/admini...rump-administration-sought-to-undermine-covid



> The Trump administration deliberately undermined the nation's coronavirus response for political purposes, including by weakening testing guidance and championing widespread "herd immunity," according to a new report from the House panel investigating the pandemic response.


* Trump White House made 'deliberate efforts' to undermine Covid response, report says *

https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/co...orts-undermine-covid-response-report-n1286211


> The Trump administration engaged in "deliberate efforts" to undermine the U.S. response to the coronavirus pandemic for political purposes, a congressional report released Friday concludes.


The report, a pdf download:
https://coronavirus.house.gov/sites...ouse.gov/files/SSCCInterimReportDec2021V1.pdf


----------



## Johnny b

And those BS claims about ivermectin being a cure:

* Ivermectin study in the city of Itajaí contains several methodological weaknesses, resulting in questionable conclusions *
https://healthfeedback.org/claimrev...ological-weaknesses-questionable-conclusions/

This stands out after all the reasons presented as to why the study was flawed:



> It's also of note that Itajaí actually saw the highest COVID-19 mortality rate in 2020 among the major cities in the state of Santa Catarina, another observation that casts doubt over whether the COVID-19 prevention program using ivermectin was actually effective.


Got that? The highest rate of death in that area was recorded with the test subjects!!!

Further:
1. *Finally, at least two of the authors, Flavio Cadegiani and Juan Chamie, are members of a group called the Front Line COVID-19 Critical Care Alliance (FLCCC). This group, led by physicians Pierre Kory and Paul Marik, propagated unsupported claims about ivermectin as an effective COVID-19 treatment. *

2.* Cadegiani is also the principal investigator of a clinical trial that is being investigated for potential violations of medical ethics and human rights by Brazil's National Health Council, as reported by the British Medical Journal. *

3. * Cadegiani and Lucy Kerr also have financial conflicts of interest from their work for a company that produces ivermectin. *

..........................

And more in this Scientific American article:

* Fringe Doctors' Groups Promote Ivermectin for COVID despite a Lack of Evidence *
https://www.scientificamerican.com/...rmectin-for-covid-despite-a-lack-of-evidence/

A lot to read.
This stands out:



> A report published in July by Cochrane........
> looked at dozens of studies on ivermectin, of which only 14 qualified for evaluation. The report excluded 38 investigations because of problems with their methodology: they either had no control group, an inappropriate control group or other kinds of biases. The 14 remaining studies, which included a total of 1,678 participants, did not support the use of ivermectin for preventing or treating COVID, the report concluded.


All in all, it looks like anyone arguing to use substances like ivermectine rather than the common sense and scientifically approved usage of masks, social distancing and vaccines......are simply trying to kill you.


----------



## Johnny b

lol!

* Trump reveals he got COVID-19 booster shot; crowd boos him *
https://abcnews.go.com/Health/wireStory/trump-reveals-covid-19-booster-shot-crowd-boos-81860432

After all the misinformation Trump generated........he admits to his own personal decisions and the people that believed in him seem upset.
After a lifetime of deceit, what would any sane person expect different of him?


----------



## Johnny b

*Sarah Palin gave a speech opposing vaccination, and said she would get a shot 'over my dead body' *
https://www.businessinsider.com/sarah-palin-opposes-vaccination-shot-over-dead-body-2021-12

Another mindless example of the current death cult.

And like Trump, how do we really know she hasn't had 'the jab' or will get one when advisors take her aside and explain the reality of getting re-infected?


----------



## Johnny b

Interesting short article over at Ars Technica.

In the early days of covid-19 in the US, how Trump and his appointees set policies to intentionally spread the infection.
Nothing new to this forum.
But of interest seeing how the man trying to kill Americans with political manipulation has gone full tilt on saving himself with what he originally denied the populace.
So, he's not only despicable, he's also a coward by his own standards.

*Details released on the Trump administration's pandemic chaos *
https://arstechnica.com/science/202...olitical-interference-with-pandemic-response/


----------



## Johnny b

And now, more details:

* Select Subcommittee's Year-End Staff Report Highlights Oversight Work, Releases New Findings from Ongoing Investigations *
https://coronavirus.house.gov/news/...aff-report-highlights-oversight-work-releases

https://coronavirus.house.gov/sites...ouse.gov/files/SSCCInterimReportDec2021V1.pdf

(redacted emails)
https://coronavirus.house.gov/sites...ouse.gov/files/CombinedDec2021NewEvidence.pdf

https://coronavirus.house.gov/sites/democrats.coronavirus.house.gov/files/New TI Excerpts v2.pdf


----------



## Johnny b

One of the biggest problems in stopping the pandemic is 'us'.


----------



## Couriant

Wino said:


> Ran across this chart yesterday. Pretty much explains why orange ogre let COVID slide initially since it was killing off lefties in New York and Cali. Then as he ignored, the worm turned and now it's his worshipers. I'm not sure of the validity of the numbers, but makes sense to me. Death Cult, indeed.
> View attachment 292928


I can see that being a valid claim. There was an article I saw that a TX Republican died from complications from the Omicron variant. He had coronavirus that he recovered from earlier. Was not vaccinated. I would think that the Red lines will go higher, quicker.


----------



## Johnny b

* Marjorie Taylor Greene, who has boasted about being unvaccinated, owns stock in 3 major vaccine makers *
https://www.businessinsider.com/mar...ated-owns-pfizer-jj-astrazeneca-stock-2021-12


----------



## SeanLaurence

Johnny b said:


> * Marjorie Taylor Greene, who has boasted about being unvaccinated, owns stock in 3 major vaccine makers *
> https://www.businessinsider.com/mar...ated-owns-pfizer-jj-astrazeneca-stock-2021-12


I guess she is just trying to avoid the appearance of a conflict of interest.


----------



## Johnny b

On a different note...but derived from the impact of the Covid-19 pandemic, our 'house of cards' supply chain economy is at risk:

* The Next Wave of the Supply-Chain Crisis Is Building *
https://www.barrons.com/articles/th...-crisis-is-building-51640274503?siteid=yhoof2

Supply side economics, trickle down economy and out sourcing were bad ideas.
We lost control of our own economy.
Not only is Congress a maze of chaos, we're dependent on the rest of the world to solve many of the same issues.
We used to lead, but that was long ago.
Now we excel in debt and political extremism.


----------



## Chawbacon

Johnny b said:


> More and more is being outed of Trump's involvement in an early intentional ineffective pandemic response.
> 
> * Trump sought to 'undermine' COVID-19 response, says panel *
> https://thehill.com/homenews/admini...rump-administration-sought-to-undermine-covid
> 
> * Trump White House made 'deliberate efforts' to undermine Covid response, report says *
> 
> https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/co...orts-undermine-covid-response-report-n1286211
> 
> The report, a pdf download:
> https://coronavirus.house.gov/sites...ouse.gov/files/SSCCInterimReportDec2021V1.pdf


Ok Johnny... How do you explain the success of off label drugs used in India to significantly reduce COVID-19 infections, while provinces that did not use off label drugs in India saw a significant increase in COVID-19 infections? Ivermectin obliterates 97 percent of Delhi cases | National | thedesertreview.com 


> This is what happened to cases in the areas that chose Ivermectin:
> 
> Delhi : ¯ 97% [28,395 to 956]
> Uttar Pradesh: ¯ 95% [37,944 to 2,014]
> Goa: ¯ 85% [4195 to 645]
> Karnataka: ¯ 60% [50,112 to 20,378]
> Uttarakhand: ¯ 87% [9,642 to 1,226] [Quote/]
> 
> Observe what happened to those areas that DID NOT choose Ivermectin:
> 
> Tamil Nadu 173% [10,986 to 30,016]
> Odisha 50% [4,761 to 7,148]
> Assam 240% [1,651 to 5,613]
> Arunachal Pradesh 656% [ 61 to 461]
> Tripura 828% [92 to 854]


And your position on masks and the Covid-19 (so called) vaccines becomes more complicated when we examine Germany, England, New York, and several other northern U.S. States that have around an 80% to 90% vaccination rate, mask mandates and mask mandate enforcements, and the some of the most stringent lock down protocols currently in use. BUT, these same areas are seeing significant Covid-19 infections (which seems to be the standard for evaluating the virus now) sickening the unvaccinated and the vaccinated.

So here are the obvious questions:

1. If the Covid-19 (so called) vaccine works, then why is the Covid-19 (so called) vaccine not working?
2. If mask mandates work, then why are the mask mandates not working?

But even Better! Riddle me this:

3. If the Covid-19 (so called) vaccine really works, then why do the FULLY vaccinated need to wear masks?
4. If the mask mandates really work, then why does anyone need a Covid-19 (so called) vaccine?

Ok. You have already stated that I don't deserve forgiveness based upon my general support for most of former President Trump's policies. So, go ahead and start burying this post with a string of your posts that are laced with ad-hominem.


----------



## Johnny b

Chawbacon said:


> Ok Johnny... How do you explain the success of off label drugs used in India to significantly reduce COVID-19 infections, while provinces that did not use off label drugs in India saw a significant increase in COVID-19 infections? ..................


Jack?
Why do you post such nonsense?
Why are you so easily influenced to believe what has so soundly been flogged?

You have a computer. Why aren't you verifying what you claim before making your self look so foolish.
Jack...on and on and on.....you make me look vindictive as I continually correct you. (  )

* Success of ivermectin in preventing COVID-19 in India has not been proven *
https://www.newswise.com/factcheck/...-india-has-not-been-proven/?article_id=761091


----------



## Johnny b

Chawbacon said:


> ..........................
> 
> So here are the obvious questions:
> 
> 1. If the Covid-19 (so called) vaccine works, then why is the Covid-19 (so called) vaccine not working?
> 2. If mask mandates work, then why are the mask mandates not working?
> 
> But even Better! Riddle me this:
> 
> 3. If the Covid-19 (so called) vaccine really works, then why do the FULLY vaccinated need to wear masks?
> 4. If the mask mandates really work, then why does anyone need a Covid-19 (so called) vaccine?
> 
> Ok. You have already stated that I don't deserve forgiveness based upon my general support for most of former President Trump's policies. So, go ahead and start burying this post with a string of your posts that are laced with ad-hominem.





> 1. If the Covid-19 (so called) vaccine works, then why is the Covid-19 (so called) vaccine not working?


Jack, just because you make a claim doesn't make it a fact.
The vaccines are working.
LOL....even the loser DJ Trump, your hero, now claims they are effective.
You cultists 



> 2. If mask mandates work, then why are the mask mandates not working?


Do you pre-read your rants before posting?
What kind of a question is that?
'If it works, why doesn't it work'.
I sense a logical fallacy there ( lol )



> But even Better! Riddle me this:


For a long time I've taken your rants as a joke, now you want riddles?
hmmmm.



> 3. If the Covid-19 (so called) vaccine really works, then why do the FULLY vaccinated need to wear masks?


Oh...the 'If Game'.
There is no If involved.
The vaccines boost immunity and help protect against severe infection and that is what is being seen currently as the dying and severely infected in hospitals are mostly non-vaccinated.
As far as transmission, anyone vaccinated can get a low level Covid infection and pass it on. Masks reduce the viral loads expelled and inhaled.
Common sense.....yeah, I know. It doesn't suit your cultist politics.



> 4. If the mask mandates really work, then why does anyone need a Covid-19 (so called) vaccine?


Masks aren't a curative proposition, they reduce the viral load.
Vaccines boost immunity.
But you already knew that.....didn't you?



> Ok. You have already stated that I don't deserve forgiveness based upon my general support for most of former President Trump's policies. So, go ahead and start burying this post with a string of your posts that are laced with ad-hominem.


You sound bitter. ( LOL! )
Well, bitter this....Trump now recommends taking the vaccine.
Ha ha ha ha ha ha Ha ha ha ha ha ha Ha ha ha ha ha ha!!!!

Jack....forgiveness is one of those things that involves the perpetrator denouncing their actions and asking for forgiveness.
Not repeating the same action over and over and over, endlessly 
So what do you expect?


----------



## SeanLaurence

Chawbacon said:


> Ok Johnny... How do you explain the success of off label drugs used in India to significantly reduce COVID-19 infections, while provinces that did not use off label drugs in India saw a significant increase in COVID-19 infections? Ivermectin obliterates 97 percent of Delhi cases | National | thedesertreview.com


On Ivermectin - One reason that it appears to work is that it does reduce severe disease and hospitalisations in places where parasitic infections are common. If some poor person in India has a parasitic infection and a covid infection, their body would have a much harder time of fighting the covid. Ivermectin clears the parasites so that the body can fight the virus.
https://astralcodexten.substack.com/p/ivermectin-much-more-than-you-wanted


----------



## SeanLaurence

Chawbacon said:


> Ok Johnny... How do you explain the success of off label drugs used in India to significantly reduce COVID-19 infections, while provinces that did not use off label drugs in India saw a significant increase in COVID-19 infections? Ivermectin obliterates 97 percent of Delhi cases | National | thedesertreview.com


The article that you linked does not provide the source data or the study that shows that the 97% decline in Delhi was a result of Ivermectin.
The graph does show a decline in recorded cases. However, cases declined in all of India at that time.
Really we should be looking at hospitalisations and deaths as the number of cases is probably an undercount due to a number of factors, not the least of which is testing capacity. (which we are seeing Canada and the US currently)
In any case - stats from India in the face of a massive covid spike should be considered unreliable:
https://www.npr.org/sections/goatsa...d-at-about-4-million-10-times-the-official-co


----------



## Johnny b

I wondered about this claim as I'd not read anything near it.
Making up claims or even repeating claims of an exceptional nature with out fact checking only hurts a worthy cause.
And a person that is supposed to represent the best interests of our society, needs to be correct on such issues. If not, as has been seen, arguments will go against reason, using false/incorrect claims as a rationale for disbelief.

* Sotomayor's false claim that 'over 100,000' children are in 'serious condition' with covid *
https://www.washingtonpost.com/poli...00-children-are-serious-condition-with-covid/



> She earns Four Pinocchios.


There is definitely a need for concern about those too young for the vaccine and those in school, even when they've had the jab and booster.


----------



## SeanLaurence

Johnny b said:


> I wondered about this claim as I'd not read anything near it.
> Making up claims or even repeating claims of an exceptional nature with out fact checking only hurts a worthy cause.
> And a person that is supposed to represent the best interests of our society, needs to be correct on such issues. If not, as has been seen, arguments will go against reason, using false/incorrect claims as a rationale for disbelief.
> 
> * Sotomayor's false claim that 'over 100,000' children are in 'serious condition' with covid *
> https://www.washingtonpost.com/poli...00-children-are-serious-condition-with-covid/
> 
> There is definitely a need for concern about those too young for the vaccine and those in school, even when they've had the jab and booster.


I imagine that she misremembered a statistic she came across somewhere. 
Still, not a good look for a supreme court justice.


----------



## Johnny b

Looks like AOC just became the poster child for Covid-19

* AOC tests positive for COVID-19 after partying in Miami maskless *
https://www.foxnews.com/politics/aoc-tests-positive-for-covid-19-after-partying-in-miami-maskless

Fantastic roll model for wearing a mask and social distancing.
'Don't do what I do, do what I say' 

imo....just another politician telling us what she thinks her constituency what's to hear, and acting as she wants.



> The positive test comes shortly after the congresswoman was seen without a mask in a Miami bar, according to video that circulated on social media


This doesn't seem helpful in the attempt to overcome the ongoing pandemic.


----------



## Wino

From Dailey Beast:



> The Democratic congresswoman traveled to Florida over the holiday break, and photos of her having an outdoor meal with her boyfriend and appearing at an outdoor drag event were cited as evidence of hypocrisy by Republicans like Gov. Ron DeSantis.
> 
> There is no mask mandate in place in Florida, and CDC guidance calls for masks to be worn "in public indoor settings in areas of substantial or high community transmission."


Not defending AOC, but there is a difference for some like the madding crowd and the haves/elites. Really nothing to see here as it's the norm.


----------



## Johnny b

Wino said:


> From Dailey Beast:
> 
> Not defending AOC, but there is a difference for some like the madding crowd and the haves/elites. Really nothing to see here as it's the norm.


True....but there was a time in France when even the suggestion of cake eating could lead to a loss of life 

As Jack would comment.....tic toc! lol!


----------



## SeanLaurence

Johnny b said:


> Looks like AOC just became the poster child for Covid-19
> 
> * AOC tests positive for COVID-19 after partying in Miami maskless *
> https://www.foxnews.com/politics/aoc-tests-positive-for-covid-19-after-partying-in-miami-maskless
> 
> Fantastic roll model for wearing a mask and social distancing.
> 'Don't do what I do, do what I say'
> 
> imo....just another politician telling us what she thinks her constituency what's to hear, and acting as she wants.
> 
> This doesn't seem helpful in the attempt to overcome the ongoing pandemic.


Since covid has not spread much in outdoor settings, AOC probably thought she was being reasonably safe. Omicron looks to have changed the calculus a bit. From the looks of those pictures, I think it was a bit too crowded at that outdoor patio than would be considered safe. Who knows if she picked up the virus there or in an elevator or a hallway while wearing a mask?
Anyway, she is young and vaccinated. she will be fine. 
The hypocrisy to watch out for is if she quarantines properly.


----------



## Johnny b

SeanLaurence said:


> Since covid has not spread much in outdoor settings, AOC probably thought she was being reasonably safe. Omicron looks to have changed the calculus a bit. From the looks of those pictures, I think it was a bit too crowded at that outdoor patio than would be considered safe. Who knows if she picked up the virus there or in an elevator or a hallway while wearing a mask?
> Anyway, she is young and vaccinated. she will be fine.
> The hypocrisy to watch out for is if she quarantines properly.


She'll probably be fine in the medical sense.
But as a leader, she'll be seen as arrogant and one of entitlement.
And that does appear to be the case.


----------



## Ciberblade

For as long as the pandemic has gone one, I continue to find myself amazed at the the seeming confusion regarding very simple concepts such as the purpose of wearing a mask. 

This is nothing more than a "that person doesn't associate with the group I associate with, so they must be attacked"


----------



## Johnny b

Ciberblade said:


> For as long as the pandemic has gone one, I continue to find myself amazed at the the seeming confusion regarding very simple concepts such as the purpose of wearing a mask.
> 
> This is nothing more than a "that person doesn't associate with the group I associate with, so they must be attacked"


I am shocked and appalled!

Nothing more?

You mean 'in your opinion'?
Or something factual?
Maybe like a Pinsky remark from the past?

'For as long as the pandemic has gone on, I continue to find myself amazed at the' incredible reasons used to refuse wearing a mask, denying they serve a function and even extending their logic into denial that a pandemic exists.

Unfortunately these issues were turned political early on under the Trump administration.

Politics....it brings out the crazies.


----------



## SeanLaurence

It has been made to be political by a number of groups. 
The disinformation campaign has been relentless.
The groups behind it are:
- The Republican Party - who want to see Biden fail.
They also don't care if Seniors, Diabetics, The Obese, the Dimwitted (that believe the lie) and People of Colour get sick and die
- Anti-Vaxer groups- who have always been against vaccination
- The "Wellness" industry - who would rather sell you their snake oil cures.
- Russia - That wants to destabilise the west
- Evangelicals - that are looking forward to "End Times"
- Your uncle Fred - who Doesn't understand that he is a victim of a disinformation campaign
-Your Nephew Kaden - who sees the greed of the 1% and the hopelessness of his economic future and doesn't care if you get sick.
- Betsy the wedding event coordinator - who is facing bankruptcy with large events scaled back or cancelled.
Have I forgotten anyone?

Donald Trump has seen the light - he has noticed that his supporters are dying in disproportionately high numbers. All they had to do was take "His" vaccine.


----------



## Johnny b

Well said, Sean.

I just didn't want to polarize the topic by pointing out all the villains.


----------



## SeanLaurence

SeanLaurence said:


> Have I forgotten anyone?


Oh - One more:
- Dave - the conspiracy theorist. - who thinks "They" are trying to control you!


----------



## Couriant

SeanLaurence said:


> Oh - One more:
> - Dave - the conspiracy theorist. - who thinks "They" are trying to control you!


Tucker Carlson and Friends.... lol


----------



## Johnny b

SeanLaurence said:


> Oh - One more:
> - Dave - the conspiracy theorist. - who thinks "They" are trying to control you!


And that leads to the numerous media sites that still allow misinformation and lies to be posted.


----------



## Johnny b

Depressing.

And now there's a new variant of Omicron that's on the watch list.


----------



## SeanLaurence

Johnny b said:


> Depressing.
> And now there's a new variant of Omicron that's on the watch list.


Yes: Two "Subvariants". Too soon to know much, but I hear they account for half the cases in Norway.
Local news reported we have some cases here in BC. 
I don't expect that they will be two different from regular Omicron.


----------



## Ciberblade

Johnny b said:


> Depressing.
> 
> And now there's a new variant of Omicron that's on the watch list.


Worst way to learn the Greek alphabet ever.


----------



## Ciberblade

Johnny b said:


> Unfortunately these issues were turned political early on under the Trump administration.


True, and by many others as has been pointed out.

Still...it has been two years. There's only so much [insert groupthink here] that passes for 'justification'. At some point people have to make the choice to either find out what the facts are or resign themselves to whatever their version of comfort is. Just don't expect the world to suddenly agree with you.


----------



## Johnny b

Ciberblade said:


> True, and by many others as has been pointed out.
> 
> Still...it has been two years. There's only so much [insert groupthink here] that passes for 'justification'. At some point people have to make the choice to either find out what the facts are or resign themselves to whatever their version of comfort is. Just don't expect the world to suddenly agree with you.


That element (commitment) exists in all morality, ethics and endeavors.
What are you asking of the forum?
How can decisions be made without conversation and identification of problems and their source?

Pinsky's solution was posted early on in the other Covid thread in Random.
Pinsky, at the time a Covid denier, proclaimed everyone should 'shut the hell up'.



> Just don't expect the world to suddenly agree with you.


lol.
Well, that could be said about any subject.
But in this instance, while arbitrary resistance to expert opinion has become an obvious reality, however, the issue is one of a society surviving an ongoing catastrophe. To be clear, the context of that statement does not mean the end of the human race. Our 'society'. ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Society )

And there are many that do not want our society to continue. They have different plans in mind. And they don't like their objectives discussed nor the methods they use to achieve those goals.
And it is a large faction of our society.

Societal suicide. Does anyone really want to argue for it? ( rhetorical lol. )
The not so funny answer appears to be .....'yes'.


----------



## Ciberblade

Johnny b said:


> What are you asking of the forum?


Asking of the forum? Simply engaging in the conversation.


Johnny b said:


> How can decisions be made without conversation and identification of problems and their source?


Yes, this.


Johnny b said:


> Pinsky's solution was posted early on in the other Covid thread in Random.
> Pinsky, at the time a Covid denier, proclaimed everyone should 'shut the hell up'.


Ah, yes...I missed that in my time away.



Johnny b said:


> And they don't like their objectives discussed nor the methods they use to achieve those goals.
> And it is a large faction of our society.


What they like, or not, is of little concern really.


Johnny b said:


> Societal suicide. Does anyone really want to argue for it? ( rhetorical lol. )


CURSE YOU RHETORICAL FOR YOUR SUDDEN BUT INEVITABLE BETRAYAL!!!


Johnny b said:


> The not so funny answer appears to be .....'yes'.


Sadface


----------



## Johnny b

Ciberblade said:


> Asking of the forum? Simply engaging in the conversation.
> 
> Yes, this.
> 
> Ah, yes...I missed that in my time away.
> 
> What they like, or not, is of little concern really.
> 
> CURSE YOU RHETORICAL FOR YOUR SUDDEN BUT INEVITABLE BETRAYAL!!!
> 
> Sadface


Interesting conversation lol.
I can now see why you don't want it.



> Simply engaging in the conversation.


Odd. I felt you were arguing against the concept when you posted:


> Just don't expect the world to suddenly agree with you.


For clarity, do you mean 'Me' as an individual and why project an imposed timeline:


> Still...it has been two years. There's only so much [insert groupthink here] that passes for 'justification'.


I learned a long, long time ago I couldn't arbitrarily make anyone accept my views.
But it doesn't stop me from presenting reason and logic for that acceptance.

Since you are new to this thread, what is your position on 'justification' and more importantly ( in my best impersonation of Tucker Carlson ) what does it even mean ( lol! )



> What they like, or not, is of little concern really.


Hmmm. 
Infecting a nation with a destructive virus seems like a big deal to me. 
But, do you mean ....it's no big deal to you?
Which begs the question, why?



> CURSE YOU RHETORICAL FOR YOUR SUDDEN BUT INEVITABLE BETRAYAL!!!


You sound troubled, CB.
It's been a while since we've conversed to any extent.
Things not going well?



> Sadface


I do hope things go better for you.


----------



## Ciberblade

You see...I've ignored the recategorizations, done presumably for comedic purposes, in hopes to engage in conversation...or perhaps it is an honest struggle to follow along. Either way, here we are.



Johnny b said:


> Ciberblade said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Johnny b said:
> 
> 
> 
> And *they *don't like their objectives discussed nor the methods they use to achieve those goals.
> And it is a large faction of our society.
> 
> 
> 
> What *they *like, or not, is of little concern really.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Hmmm.
> Infecting a nation with a destructive virus seems like a big deal to me.
> But, do you mean ....it's no big deal to you?
> Which begs the question, why?
Click to expand...

Note the common reference of 'they' as topic identifiers. If I am going to have to step you through the concept of statement/response in order to maintain context, there is little discussion to be had.

Why? That is simple, really. While "they" (as mentioned by you previously) do not like 'their' objectives discussed...it does not influence whether or not I discuss them. You see, just because "they" do not like it doesn't mean its not going to be done.



Johnny b said:


> You sound troubled, CB.
> It's been a while since we've conversed to any extent.
> Things not going well?
> 
> I do hope things go better for you.


The confidence of these presumptions are remarkable! Wholly inadequate, but remarkable.

Is this what CivDeb has become? Attempts to extrapolate intent from even the most basic of responses and spectacularly misrepresent it in the most obtuse way possible?

Allow me to introduce myself...I am CB. I am influenced by verifiable facts and otherwise un-swayed by emotional appeals and logic fallacies. Hello There! If you are anticipating an argument...you might want to re-evaluate whats going on here.


----------



## Ciberblade

To elaborate on my initial statement: 


Ciberblade said:


> For as long as the pandemic has gone one, I continue to find myself amazed at the the seeming confusion regarding very simple concepts such as the purpose of wearing a mask.


Wearing of the mask was, and is, about limiting the potential spread of the virus. It is not a prevention method for the wearer. Beyond that, this virus is here permanently. There are many who continue to believe incorrectly that if we just mask enough, get vaccine'd and booster'd enough, that it will go away. It won't. We are in the endemic portion; so targeting someone for "not wearing their mask" doesn't really matter in face of the virus itself because it is not longer a matter of IF we are going to get it, just when. That, is where the vaccine comes in.


----------



## Johnny b

Ciberblade said:


> You see...I've ignored the recategorizations, done presumably for comedic purposes, in hopes to engage in conversation...or perhaps it is an honest struggle to follow along. Either way, here we are.
> 
> Note the common reference of 'they' as topic identifiers. If I am going to have to step you through the concept of statement/response in order to maintain context, there is little discussion to be had.
> 
> Why? That is simple, really. While "they" (as mentioned by you previously) do not like 'their' objectives discussed...it does not influence whether or not I discuss them. You see, just because "they" do not like it doesn't mean its not going to be done.
> 
> The confidence of these presumptions are remarkable! Wholly inadequate, but remarkable.
> 
> Is this what CivDeb has become? Attempts to extrapolate intent from even the most basic of responses and spectacularly misrepresent it in the most obtuse way possible?
> 
> Allow me to introduce myself...I am CB. I am influenced by verifiable facts and otherwise un-swayed by emotional appeals and logic fallacies. Hello There! If you are anticipating an argument...you might want to re-evaluate whats going on here.


I know you, CB. 
From 'before'.

So, let's stop with the evasion, please.

What is your position concerning the elements I brought up. You know....my questions about your 'positions' that , imo, seemed rather vague and more about 'me' than the topic of this thread.



> Is this what CivDeb has become?


That forum is closed.
This one is much milder lol!



> Why? That is simple, really. While "they" (as mentioned by you previously) do not like 'their' objectives discussed...it does not influence whether or not I discuss them. You see, just because "they" do not like it doesn't mean its not going to be done.


So, 'just because' is your logic, your answer to 'me'.
Apparently that works for you.
That you don't want to be involved is your right.
So what is your 'justification' on imposing your logic on 'me'?



> You see...I've ignored the recategorizations.....


That you have.
Maybe you ought to get to know the participants in this thread.
You already know me 
Recently, you've met at least 3 distinct 'categorizations' that have come together in agreement on a common subject. Surely that was obvious.
And we do disagree from time to time on different subjects.

So, your position of ignoring categories is either lacking in focus, or a flaw in your own logic in regards to this thread.

It's the topic that holds more importance.
And ignoring it wouldn't lead to much debate, now would it 



> Attempts to extrapolate intent from even the most basic of responses and spectacularly misrepresent it in the most obtuse way possible?


Is there a question there?
Honestly, you appear vague on the topic and avoid the questions I've asked.



Ciberblade said:


> For as long as the pandemic has gone one, I continue to find myself amazed at the the seeming confusion regarding very simple concepts such as the purpose of wearing a mask.
> 
> This is nothing more than a "that person doesn't associate with the group I associate with, so they must be attacked"


I did ask:
* 
You mean 'in your opinion'?
Or something factual?
Maybe like a Pinsky remark from the past?
*

CB. please. Your position on the topic seems vague. Your position on those debating and conversing seems caustic.
It would help, at least me, for a bit more clarity that goes to topic rather than the personal.


----------



## Johnny b

Ciberblade said:


> To elaborate on my initial statement:
> 
> Wearing of the mask was, and is, about limiting the potential spread of the virus. It is not a prevention method for the wearer. Beyond that, this virus is here permanently. There are many who continue to believe incorrectly that if we just mask enough, get vaccine'd and booster'd enough, that it will go away. It won't. We are in the endemic portion; so targeting someone for "not wearing their mask" doesn't really matter in face of the virus itself because it is not longer a matter of IF we are going to get it, just when. That, is where the vaccine comes in.


Thanks for posting that.
My reply above was posted before reading this ^ post.



> Wearing of the mask was, and is, about limiting the potential spread of the virus. It is not a prevention method for the wearer.


Seriously, your statement is a conflict in logic.
Limiting the spread is a means of prevention.
It's not 100% effective.



> Beyond that, this virus is here permanently.


Indeed. 
And that's a very good reason to use common sense in order to attempt avoiding infection.



> There are many who continue to believe incorrectly that if we just mask enough, get vaccine'd and booster'd enough, that it will go away. It won't.


Agreed.



> We are in the endemic portion....


No, we aren't there yet.
Not even close.
All one has to do is check out the JohnsHopkins Covid Map to see that world infection rates are still at a pandemic level.



> so targeting someone for "not wearing their mask" doesn't really matter in face of the virus itself because it is not longer a matter of IF we are going to get it, just when.


And there we have it.
Flawed logic.
Convincing the general public to wear a mask, follow social distancing guidelines and get vaccinated will reduce the infection rate and move the pandemic into a more manageable endemic mode in a shorter period of time.

Aside from the deniers, at this time, there is also a problem of those vaccinated thinking going maskless is appropriate and ignoring social distancing is acceptable.
Obviously, it's not.
It only perpetuates the spread of the virus.



> it is not longer a matter of IF we are going to get it, just when.


Just reminding you, you don't speak for everyone, either.
And I should point out, no one knows how long this pandemic will last or whether there will be a more virulent form in the future.
And, death is not the only concern. Long Covid is also an issue.

But....thanks for taking a stand, one way or the other


----------



## Johnny b

( moved from a different thread )

Referring to an earlier post:
https://forums.techguy.org/threads/the-biden-thread.1273494/post-9874308

https://www.foxnews.com/media/rand-paul-boycott-of-government-covid-edicts



> Sen. Rand Paul, R-Ky., joined "America Reports" Wednesday to react to a new study from Johns Hopkins University that concluded COVID lockdowns did more harm than good because they failed to reduce mortality and were "devastating" to the economy.


I found that 'Johns Hopkins' article.
Turns out it doesn't look like it was released or approved or had any input from Johns Hopkins itself.
One of the three authors was affiliated with Johns Hopkins and while the logo on the document contained a Johns Hopkins letterhead, it also contained this disclaimer:



> The Studies in Applied Economics series is under the general direction of Prof. Steve H. Hanke,
> Founder and Co-Director of The Johns Hopkins Institute for Applied Economics, Global Health,
> and the Study of Business Enterprise ([email protected]). The views expressed in each working
> paper are those of the authors and not necessarily those of the institutions that the authors are
> affiliated with.


*"The views expressed in each working
paper are those of the authors and not necessarily those of the institutions that the authors are
affiliated with.'*

And yet, that isn't mentioned in the Fox article or the many right wing online news sites I found presenting it.

https://sites.krieger.jhu.edu/iae/f...ffects-of-Lockdowns-on-COVID-19-Mortality.pdf

(edit: restated the JH's involvement )


----------



## Johnny b

The title of the above study is:
A LITERATURE REVIEW AND META-ANALYSIS
OF THE EFFECTS OF LOCKDOWNS ON
COVID-19 MORTALITY

And it turns out it wasn't peer reviewed.
And there is criticism of the methodology used and issues and concerns not addressed in that study:

* expert reaction to a preprint looking at the impact of lockdowns, as posted on the John Hopkins Krieger School of Arts and Sciences website  *
https://www.sciencemediacentre.org/...-krieger-school-of-arts-and-sciences-website/

Too much to copy and paste.

So....this is obviously just another example of the BS misinformation Fox News and Rand Paul promote....and all the right wing web sites referring to the article.


----------



## Johnny b

*U.S. marks latest grim milestone of the pandemic: 900,000 COVID deaths *
https://news.yahoo.com/us-covid-death-toll-900000-coronavirus-pandemic-205438544.html



> According to data from Johns Hopkins University, as of late Friday afternoon, more than 900,500 Americans had died from complications from the virus since the pandemic began, with more than 76 million reported U.S. cases - far more cases and deaths than in any other country in the world.


----------



## SeanLaurence

> We began this pandemic by asking the wrong questions, and thus we got the wrong answers. Rewind to October 2019. The Johns Hopkins Center for Health Security and the Nuclear Threat Initiative release the Global Health Security Index. It ranks 195 countries on their pandemic preparedness. Each country is judged on prevention policy, on detection capabilities, on response infrastructure, on health system capacity, on international cooperation and on underlying risk. The news is reassuring, at least if you live in the United States: We're No. 1!
> Then, only months later, we get an actual, once-in-a-century pandemic. The United States fails the test. We have more infections, more deaths, more pain and suffering and division and grief. Our performance doesn't just fall short of rich countries like Germany and Denmark. It falls short of far poorer countries, too. The Global Health Security Index was measuring the wrong things. The researchers later noted that tucked inside the report was a finding about the United States that would prove more predictive of our response: "It had the lowest possible score on public confidence in the government.


https://www.nytimes.com/2022/02/06/opinion/covid-pandemic-policy-trust.html


----------



## SeanLaurence

Johnny b said:


> The title of the above study is:
> A LITERATURE REVIEW AND META-ANALYSIS
> OF THE EFFECTS OF LOCKDOWNS ON
> COVID-19 MORTALITY
> 
> And it turns out it wasn't peer reviewed.
> And there is criticism of the methodology used and issues and concerns not addressed in that study:
> 
> * expert reaction to a preprint looking at the impact of lockdowns, as posted on the John Hopkins Krieger School of Arts and Sciences website  *
> https://www.sciencemediacentre.org/...-krieger-school-of-arts-and-sciences-website/
> 
> Too much to copy and paste.
> 
> So....this is obviously just another example of the BS misinformation Fox News and Rand Paul promote....and all the right wing web sites referring to the article.


This study has little to do with JHU and is complete rubbish. I knew this to be true when I first laid eyes on it last week when I saw a link in a "Freedom Convoy" Telegraph group.
To start, they threw out any studies or working papers on places such as Australia and New Zealand that had successful NPI's (What they call lockdowns)
I read this Forbes article on it today:
https://www.forbes.com/sites/brucel...ineffective-against-covid-19/?sh=58c779481225


----------



## Johnny b

SeanLaurence said:


> ......................
> I read this Forbes article on it today:
> https://www.forbes.com/sites/brucel...ineffective-against-covid-19/?sh=58c779481225


Thanks for the link.


----------



## Johnny b

Interesting article on Ivermectin.
A long article.

* 'You will not believe what I've just found.' Inside the ivermectin saga: a hacked password, mysterious websites and faulty data.  *
https://www.marketwatch.com/story/y...sterious-websites-and-faulty-data-11644240013

*



How a drug used to treat parasites for decades became the hot and controversial drug of the pandemic.

Click to expand...

*A lot to read, this realization stands out:


> "I saw that when it came out, and I did the mathematical calculation of, is this a drug level you can achieve?" Boulware told me. "I quickly realized, no, this is 50 to 100 times higher than you'd ever get in a human. It took me about 15 minutes to figure out that this was not going to be useful as an antiviral. I set it aside and moved onwards."


More to consider under the headers:
* 'Studies that probably never happened' *


> What is unclear is whether the retractions and withdrawals of some of the key scientific data underpinning the case for ivermectin will change anything for the people who believe in the drug's potential.


and:

* A mysterious website *


----------



## Wino

I'll stick with my vaxx - leave the ivermectin, hydroxychloroquine, UV anal lights, Clorox/Lysol injections and praying to the idiots.


----------



## Johnny b

This post could have, just as easily, appeared in the evolution thread.
It's a negative/destructive mentality-trait that carries over from one field of science to another. And the commonality is a denial of reality formulated on a political basis.

It didn't work for the Communists that backed Lysenko, why would the extremists behind the current anti-vaxxer movement think it would work now?
The laws of nature can not be legislated. 
However, politics can end your presence in reality by ignoring those laws of nature. 
Example: the rightwing politics of Covid-19. 
But currently, it's more than just that singular example, it's becoming an issue of vaccines in general.

The mentality behind the current death cult and political connections: the anti-vaxxer.

* Why covering anti-evolution laws has me worried about the future of vaccines *
https://arstechnica.com/science/202...-has-me-worried-about-the-future-of-vaccines/


----------



## Johnny b

Malone gets outed:

* Experts rate 12 vaccine claims by Robert Malone, the doctor catapulted to fame on Joe Rogan's podcast *
https://www.businessinsider.com/exp...-claims-by-robert-malone-rogan-podcast-2022-2


----------



## SeanLaurence

Johnny b said:


> Malone gets outed:
> 
> * Experts rate 12 vaccine claims by Robert Malone, the doctor catapulted to fame on Joe Rogan's podcast *
> https://www.businessinsider.com/exp...-claims-by-robert-malone-rogan-podcast-2022-2


I spotted his BS the first time I hear of him, but it is always nice to have an article in my back pocket to send to the ignorant that whine "but the inventor of nRNA says..."


----------



## Johnny b

This was NOT unexpected.
Rather self evident, imo, but here is an article on the study of Ivermectin usage tied to GOP politics:

*Ivermectin fails another COVID trial as study links use to GOP politics *
https://arstechnica.com/science/202...vid-trial-as-study-links-use-to-gop-politics/

IMO, the GOP was essentially killing off it's membership at a higher rate.
Trump wasn't just evil, he was stupid at the same time.
And those following his lead, no better.


----------



## SeanLaurence

I got into a discussion on Imgur regarding a graph showing the correlation between political stance and vaccination rate and covid death rate. The dude thought the best correlation was by race. Which was true in early 2020, but not since. He thought the graph was incorrect or made up or something.



http://imgur.com/a/EPiO0Cx

My username there is ChickenSnizort



Johnny b said:


> This was NOT unexpected.
> Rather self evident, imo, but here is an article on the study of Ivermectin usage tied to GOP politics:
> 
> *Ivermectin fails another COVID trial as study links use to GOP politics *
> https://arstechnica.com/science/202...vid-trial-as-study-links-use-to-gop-politics/
> 
> IMO, the GOP was essentially killing off it's membership at a higher rate.
> Trump wasn't just evil, he was stupid at the same time.
> And those following his lead, no better.


----------



## MrBillPro

I truly believe the Covid is real, I personally don't think you could get something this big if it wasn't past billions of people. My son-in-law was hospitalized with it for a while, I just don't believe the number of Covid deaths are/were all from Covid. I know someone that had Pneumonia, and was hospitalized, their personal doc said Pneumonia, Hospital documented it as Covid, it's just some of the lies that really bother me. I was born in 1951, and I grew up in a family, that if you lied to Mom or Dad, you would get the beating of your life, so the fastest way to lose my trust in any person is, if you lie to me, and I've lost many friends over the years that have lied to me. Do I believe the Covid is real, of course son-in-law had it bad, do I believe the numbers are real, no, and I don't believe anyone on earth, knows the exact amount of Covid related deaths. JMO


----------



## Cookiegal

@MrBillPro,

I've moved your post over to the thread in the Controversial Topics forum as the other one in Random is not meant for controversial discussions but rather just to relate what's happening and personal experiences, things of that nature.


----------



## MrBillPro

Cookiegal said:


> @MrBillPro,
> 
> I've moved your post over to the thread in the Controversial Topics forum as the other one in Random is not meant for controversial discussions but rather just to relate what's happening and personal experiences, things of that nature.


Thank you, I don't normally get involved in these kind of threads on the tech forums I'm a member of, so I was like a fish out of water, have a wonderful weekend.


----------



## Cookiegal

MrBillPro said:


> have a wonderful weekend.


Same to you.


----------



## Johnny b

MrBillPro said:


> I truly believe the Covid is real, I personally don't think you could get something this big if it wasn't past billions of people. My son-in-law was hospitalized with it for a while, I just don't believe the number of Covid deaths are/were all from Covid. I know someone that had Pneumonia, and was hospitalized, their personal doc said Pneumonia, Hospital documented it as Covid, it's just some of the lies that really bother me. I was born in 1951, and I grew up in a family, that if you lied to Mom or Dad, you would get the beating of your life, so the fastest way to lose my trust in any person is, if you lie to me, and I've lost many friends over the years that have lied to me. Do I believe the Covid is real, of course son-in-law had it bad, do I believe the numbers are real, no, and I don't believe anyone on earth, knows the exact amount of Covid related deaths. JMO


Not everyone that gets infected dies or even goes to the hospital.
In fact, statistically, few die but compared to influenza, Covid-19 is considerably more lethal.

There appear to be some that have it mildly and don't even go to a doctor for treatment.
And there also seems to be an issue in rural communities of affordable care being an issue that some people simply can't afford.
From what I've read, the official infection count is thought to be understated, by a great degree.

An article from last summer:
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/arti...-covid-19-cases-unreported-disease-model-says


----------



## Wino

I would believe all strains of CV19 has been under reported vs exaggerated - both in cases reported and deaths attributed. Even more so now with the many vaxxed that have low to moderate cases going unreported plus available home test unreported positives. What's sad is we had an idiot at the helm from the gitgo in DC and many guvs around the nation breathing his buttocks methane.


----------



## Johnny b

While Trump was in office and the pandemic raged through the US......where did that Covid support money go that the Trump administration was handing out?

This article addresses it.

*'Biggest fraud in a generation': The looting of the Covid relief program known as PPP *
https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/ju...oting-covid-relief-program-known-ppp-n1279664



> Even if the highest estimates are inflated, the total fraud in all Covid relief funds amounts to a mind-boggling sum of taxpayer money that could rival the $579 billion in federal funds included in President Joe Biden's massive 10-year infrastructure spending plan, according to prosecutors, government watchdogs and private experts who are trying to plug the leaks.


No wonder so many people are upset with Trump.
Taxpayers got ripped off while others lost their free ride.


----------



## Wino

Six months out from last. Scheduled for my 2nd booster of Pfizer 4/1/22 tomorrow morning.


----------



## Johnny b

I'm almost there myself, but haven't heard of it being approved yet.
Do you have a source of info on that?


----------



## Wino

No !! I made it up !! LOL

https://www.cnn.com/2022/03/29/health/covid-second-booster/index.html


----------



## MakeTopSite

It's a common misconception that Acquired Immunodeficiency Syndrome (AIDS) is only caused by the HIV virus. This simply isn't true.

AIDS has many different causes, and unfortunately, it looks like the Covid-19 injections should be added to the list of causes, because official UK Government data suggests the Triple Vaccinated population in England have been developing the condition since the beginning of 2022.

https://dailyexpose.uk/2022/04/28/distracted-russia-gov-reveal-triple-jabbed-have-ai-ds


----------



## Cookiegal

@MakeTopSite,

I've moved your post over to the thread in the Controversial Topics forum because the other thread is not for such controversial posts but rather just for updates and what's happening in different places.


----------



## MakeTopSite

Cookiegal said:


> @MakeTopSite,
> 
> I've moved your post over to the thread in the Controversial Topics forum because the other thread is not for such controversial posts but rather just for updates and what's happening in different places.


well thank you for info


----------



## Johnny b

MakeTopSite said:


> It's a common misconception that Acquired Immunodeficiency Syndrome (AIDS) is only caused by the HIV virus. This simply isn't true.
> 
> AIDS has many different causes, and unfortunately, it looks like the Covid-19 injections should be added to the list of causes, ...................


Just an old BS myth debunked long ago.

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news...19-vaccines-dont-cause-cancer-hiv/6255129001/

https://www.reuters.com/article/fac...do-not-cause-positive-hiv-tests-idUSL1N2UM1Q0

https://www.politifact.com/factchec...posts/no-covid-19-vaccines-do-not-cause-aids/

https://www.euronews.com/my-europe/...9-vaccines-do-not-create-variants-of-hiv-aids

https://apnews.com/article/fact-checking-064627133975

https://insider.kaiserpermanente.org/covid-19-vaccine-facts-and-myths/


----------



## Johnny b

It appears Reuters has presented a string of fact checks of claims in England that the Covid vaccines are inefficient.

https://www.reuters.com/article/factcheck-coronavirus-britain-idUSL2N2VK15E

https://www.reuters.com/article/factcheck-phe-covid-idUSL1N2OQ16L

https://www.reuters.com/article/delta-vaccination-idUSL1N2QZ0IZ

https://www.reuters.com/article/factcheck-delta-vaccinated-idUSL2N2OD2CJ


----------



## freedave

Johnny b said:


> * Pfizer CEO predicts 'constant waves' of COVID-19 because of complacency about the coronavirus and politicization of the pandemic *
> https://www.businessinsider.com/pfi...-coronavirus-complacency-albert-bourla-2022-5


Are you familiar with the process by which "virus isolation." is done?


----------



## Johnny b

freedave said:


> Are you familiar with the process by which "virus isolation." is done?


No.
I'm neither a biochemist nor virologist, so I've had no lab experience in the field of virology.
My sister, however, is a retired scientist that worked in the field of pharmaceuticals.
I asked her about your question.
Her response was essentially, it depends on the source of the virus.

With SARS-CoV-2, the specimen could come from various sources from sewage to nasal swabs to blood work or even 'other'. 
From what I gather, the 'process of isolation' would vary due to the source.

My sister suggested that if you wanted to know specifically what the multiple processes are, you might contact the CDC or NIH. 
Maybe you know of a virologist that could help with explanations?


----------



## freedave

Johnny b said:


> No.
> I'm neither a biochemist nor a virologist, so I've had no lab experience in the field of virology.
> My sister, however, is a retired scientist that worked in the field of pharmaceuticals.
> I asked her about your question.
> Her response was essentially, it depends on the source of the virus.
> 
> With SARS-CoV-2, the specimen could come from various sources from sewage to nasal swabs to blood work or even 'other'.
> From what I gather, the 'process of isolation' would vary due to the source.
> 
> My sister suggested that if you wanted to know specifically what the multiple processes are, you might contact the CDC or NIH.
> Maybe you know of a virologist that could help with explanations?


Thank you. According to my understanding, "virus isolation" means taking a sample containing many different particles, microbes, bacteria, and organisms within it and subjecting it to the cell culture process. Sometimes they may spin the sample to separate bigger particles such as bacteria, yet many smaller particles, such as microvesicular bodies and exosomes, will remain. This sample is then subjected to some form of "viral" transport media containing antibiotics, antifungals, fetal cow blood, etc. which is then added to a culture containing either animal or cancer cells. In the case of "SARS-COV-2," Vero cells coming from the kidneys of African Green Monkeys were used. So this process is quite different from the usual dictionary definition of "isolation," correct?


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## Johnny b

freedave said:


> Thank you. According to my understanding, "virus isolation" means taking a sample containing many different particles, microbes, bacteria, and organisms within it and subjecting it to the cell culture process. Sometimes they may spin the sample to separate bigger particles such as bacteria, yet many smaller particles, such as microvesicular bodies and exosomes, will remain. This sample is then subjected to some form of "viral" transport media containing antibiotics, antifungals, fetal cow blood, etc. which is then added to a culture containing either animal or cancer cells. In the case of "SARS-COV-2," Vero cells coming from the kidneys of African Green Monkeys were used. So this process is quite different from the usual dictionary definition of "isolation," correct?


You post as if you already know the answers.
Why ask me? lol.....


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## freedave

My question was to ask whether or not you are familiar with how "virus isolation" was done. I thought it might help to become aware of how it is done to increase understanding.


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## Johnny b

freedave said:


> My question was to ask whether or not you are familiar with how "virus isolation" was done. I thought it might help to become aware of how it is done to increase understanding.


Thank you. 
Again, I'm neither a biologist or virologist.
Because of that I look to experts opinions for information.

Are you an expert in virology?


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## freedave

Johnny b said:


> Of interest to African Green monkeys And Sars-CoV-2, I found this:
> 
> * Establishment of an African green monkey model for COVID-19 and protection against re-infection *
> https://www.nature.com/articles/s41590-020-00835-8


What evidence do these people have that African green monkeys can become subject to this?


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## Johnny b

freedave said:


> What evidence do these people have that African green monkeys can become subject to this?


Are you an expert in virology or not?


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## freedave

Johnny b said:


> Thank you.
> Again, I'm neither a biologist or virologist.
> Because of that I look to experts opinions for information.
> 
> Are you an expert in virology?


No, but based on the research I have done, and based on the research of a former virologist and many other qualified researchers, it appears to me that there are fundamental flaws in the alleged science of virology . . .


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## freedave

Johnny b said:


> Are you an expert in virology or not?


No, but I believe former virologist, Dr. Stefan Lanka, is an expert in virology . . .


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## Johnny b

freedave said:


> No, but based on the research I have done, and based on the research of a former virologist and many other qualified researchers, it appears to me that there are fundamental flaws in the alleged science of virology . . .


Ah....that would seem to make you a denier.
This is not the debate forum. A second thread for debate is in another forum here:

https://forums.techguy.org/threads/coronavirus-spread-to-eu-usa.1239391/

This thread was specifically not started for debate.
Please direct your challenges there.


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## Johnny b

freedave said:


> No, but I believe former virologist, Dr. Stefan Lanka, is an expert in virology . . .


We'll have to debate that in the other forum


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## freedave

Johnny b said:


> Ah....that would seem to make you a denier.
> This is not the debate forum. A second thread for debate is in another forum here:
> 
> https://forums.techguy.org/threads/coronavirus-spread-to-eu-usa.1239391/
> 
> This thread was specifically not started for debate.
> Please direct your challenges there.


"Denier" is one of those prejudicial terms used to block true inquiry. But you have a right to direct me to the other forum. So I will go there . . .


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## Johnny b

freedave said:


> "Denier" is one of those prejudicial terms used to block true inquiry. But you have a right to direct me to the other forum. So I will go there . . .


And often quite accurate.
We'll see


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## freedave

Johnny b said:


> And often quite accurate.
> We'll see


I could respond to that, but I'm going to the other forum . . .


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## valis

freedave said:


> No, but based on the research I have done


Please define this. What research and where?


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## valis

Johnny b said:


> Ah....that would seem to make you a denier.
> This is not the debate forum. A second thread for debate is in another forum here:
> 
> https://forums.techguy.org/threads/coronavirus-spread-to-eu-usa.1239391/
> 
> This thread was specifically not started for debate.
> Please direct your challenges there.


Whups my error...please disregard my previous post in this thread, but please answer it in the other thread.


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## freedave

valis said:


> Please define this. What research and where?


Link removed by Administrator.


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## Johnny b

freedave said:


> Many sources of research. This 22+ minute video would be a good start: [Deleted by moderator]


The first 3 points in the video have have been made and posted elsewhere in the other thread.
And the virus has been shown to cause the disease we call Covid-19.

Post something convincing.


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## valis

freedave said:


> Many sources of research. This 22+ minute video would be a good start: [Deleted by moderator]


So you have no formal training? Just Uncle Google?

One of my pet studies is climate change...no formal training but some stuff I wrote got published a few years back. I have been 'researching' it on the side since the late 80s. By no means am I an expert but I do know the field.

Mind you, no braggadocio, just querying your creds. As it comes to virology, I got a Crighton book and a Cook one and thats it.

But my google-fu is strong.


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## Johnny b

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1386982898604019714


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## valis

That Visser guy seems to do 'research'.


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## Johnny b

Virologist?
You decide.......


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1387063991000870912


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## freedave

valis said:


> So you have no formal training? Just Uncle Google?
> 
> One of my pet studies is climate change...no formal training but some stuff I wrote got published a few years back. I have been 'researching' it on the side since the late 80s. By no means am I an expert but I do know the field.
> 
> Mind you, no braggadocio, just querying your creds. As it comes to virology, I got a Crighton book and a Cook one and thats it.
> 
> But my google-fu is strong.


I, fortunately, have no formal brainwashing in virology or "climate change," but I have been researching many related areas of lies for a long time.

"Credentials" usually result in being mired in complexities that prevent one from seeing the basic simplicities.

One "can't see the forest for the trees."

"None are as hopelessly enslaved, as those who falsely believe they are free. The Truth has been kept from the depth of their Minds by Masters who rule them with lies. They feed them on falsehoods till wrong looks like right in their eyes." Johann Wolfgang von Goethe


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## Cookiegal

@freedave,

Your link in post no. 675 has been removed. We don't allow links to that site because it hosts inappropriate content for this family-friendly site. Please do not post any links to that site again. Thank you for understanding.


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## Cookiegal

For all those following, all relevant posts from the thread in Random have been moved here.


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## valis

Cookiegal said:


> For all those following, all relevant posts from the thread in Random have been moved here.


Thanks Karen...apologies, I did not click on that link as I am on mobile and have been bit before.


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## valis

freedave said:


> I, fortunately, have no formal brainwashing in virology or "climate change," but I have been researching many related areas of lies for a long time.
> 
> "Credentials" usually result in being mired in complexities that prevent one from seeing the basic simplicities.
> 
> One "can't see the forest for the trees."
> 
> "None are as hopelessly enslaved, as those who falsely believe they are free. The Truth has been kept from the depth of their Minds by Masters who rule them with lies. They feed them on falsehoods till wrong looks like right in their eyes." Johann Wolfgang von Goethe


Question; would you get on a jumbo jet knowing the pilot had not been vetted for their credentials?

Or undergo heart surgery from a doctor whos creds were from some forums on the internet or, god forbid, facebook?


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## Johnny b

freedave said:


> I, fortunately, have no formal brainwashing in virology or "climate change," but I have been researching many related areas of lies for a long time.
> 
> "Credentials" usually result in being mired in complexities that prevent one from seeing the basic simplicities.
> 
> One "can't see the forest for the trees."
> 
> "None are as hopelessly enslaved, as those who falsely believe they are free. The Truth has been kept from the depth of their Minds by Masters who rule them with lies. They feed them on falsehoods till wrong looks like right in their eyes." Johann Wolfgang von Goethe


I think I called it correctly, earlier.
Denier.

Questionable authoritative sources, even names that don't popup in anything other than that poor quality video.

Denial isn't science or even an attempt at addressing the scientific method.

Your video started out with 3 false 'points'.
That should have been a hint to you something was wrong.

And when I search for info on Lanka, I do not see credibility.
Claiming the measles virus was merely a skin irritation seemed absurd to me.
Claiming viruses don't cause disease? Ditto.

Example of his thoughts:
https://www.regjeringen.no/no/dokum...edleggId=03c4fc8f-c8f1-49c7-b176-07edebd0db06

freedave, if you want to be taken seriously, I suggest you present serious authorities.


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## freedave

valis said:


> Question; would you get on a jumbo jet knowing the pilot had not been vetted for their credentials?
> 
> Or undergo heart surgery from a doctor whos creds were from some forums on the internet or, god forbid, facebook?


No to both, but they are now appropriate analogies . . .


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## valis

Trust the people who have spent their lives studying stuff. My brother in law was an F16 pilot, end up squadron commander, now flys for united. Dude Im named after flew 2 tours in Vietnam, then 22 for united as well. Both highly decorated in military life (both retired full bird) and eminently quaified in their field.

My toilet explodes, I dont call them.


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## freedave

Johnny b said:


> I think I called it correctly, earlier.
> Denier.
> 
> Questionable authoritative sources, even names that don't popup in anything other than that poor quality video.
> 
> Denial isn't science or even an attempt at addressing the scientific method.
> 
> Your video started out with 3 false 'points'.
> That should have been a hint to you something was wrong.
> 
> And when I search for info on Lanka, I do not see credibility.
> Claiming the measles virus was merely a skin irritation seemed absurd to me.
> Claiming viruses don't cause disease? Ditto.
> 
> Example of his thoughts:
> https://www.regjeringen.no/no/dokum...edleggId=03c4fc8f-c8f1-49c7-b176-07edebd0db06
> 
> freedave, if you want to be taken seriously, I suggest you present serious authorities.


If your "Example of his thoughts" is not enough to at least question your beliefs, then there is no point in continuing. I knew immediately that I would not convince you. Too much belief in "authorities" vs. "deniers." You are free to believe what you believe . . .


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## freedave

valis said:


> Trust the people who have spent their lives studying stuff. My brother in law was an F16 pilot, end up squadron commander, now flys for united. Dude Im named after flew 2 tours in Vietnam, then 22 for united as well. Both highly decorated in military life (both retired full bird) and eminently quaified in their field.
> 
> My toilet explodes, I dont call them.


I understand. Another inappropriate analogy. We live in a world of lies, as in "The Matrix."


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## Johnny b

freedave said:


> If your "Example of his thoughts" is not enough to at least question your beliefs, then there is no point in continuing. I knew immediately that I would not convince you. Too much belief in "authorities" vs. "deniers." You are free to believe what you believe . . .


I see no value to his thoughts.
They only confirm he's a denier.
The onus to prove your point, is on you.
To convince me, you need to present a coherent argument.
A scientific argument, one that can be verified.
That I have not seen, freedave. Only denial.


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## valis

Believe what you wish. You beieve in some old grandfatherly dude living in the etherial ruling our every decision so be it. I dont but as I cannot prove it pro or con I dont argue it.

When there are VOLUMES and DECADES of bacteriological studies and proven research (Johnny can back me up here; betcha he had to carry a polio vax card to school, I know my father did) I tend to stand on the side of facts. Those are provable, not some ding dong who spent 3 hours on facebook.


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## Johnny b

freedave said:


> I understand. Another inappropriate analogy. We live in a world of lies, as in "The Matrix."


It was just a movie.
And the 4th installment was so bad I gave up at about 20 minutes in.

And you do seem to be living in a world of lies, freedave.
Perhaps you are just easy to influence?


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## Johnny b

valis said:


> Believe what you wish. You beieve in some old grandfatherly dude living in the etherial ruling our every decision so be it. I dont but as I cannot prove it pro or con I dont argue it.
> 
> When there are VOLUMES and DECADES of bacteriological studies and proven research (Johnny can back me up here; betcha he had to carry a polio vax card to school, I know my father did) I tend to stand on the side of facts. Those are provable, not some ding dong who spent 3 hours on facebook.


I remember getting the Polio vaccine at school. No card. Every child got it.
There was needed proof for the other childhood diseases, though. Those vaccines were typically injected at a family doctor's practice.

Polio was a serious scare back then.


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## Johnny b

Gotta go back later


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## freedave

Johnny b said:


> I see no value to his thoughts.
> They only confirm he's a denier.
> The onus to prove your point, is on you.
> To convince me, you need to present a coherent argument.
> A scientific argument, one that can be verified.
> That I have not seen, freedave. Only denial.


He denies the established conventional view. You deny his evidence. I don't need to prove anything to you,, nor do I wish to try to convince you . . .


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## freedave

valis said:


> Believe what you wish. You beieve in some old grandfatherly dude living in the etherial ruling our every decision so be it. I dont but as I cannot prove it pro or con I dont argue it.
> 
> When there are VOLUMES and DECADES of bacteriological studies and proven research (Johnny can back me up here; betcha he had to carry a polio vax card to school, I know my father did) I tend to stand on the side of facts. Those are provable, not some ding dong who spent 3 hours on facebook.


I have answers, but it is pointless.


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## valis

Well, yeah, actually the onus IS on you. You posted about his veracity and he tore it to pieces. If you want to use him as a source you are going to have to better than 'i dont have to prove it'.


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## freedave

Johnny b said:


> I remember getting the Polio vaccine at school. No card. Every child got it.
> There was needed proof for the other childhood diseases, though. Those vaccines were typically injected at a family doctor's practice.
> 
> Polio was a serious scare back then.


I have answers to the polio question, but there is no point . . .


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## valis

freedave said:


> I have answers, but it is pointless.


Nope, never is. Always something to learn.


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## freedave

valis said:


> Well, yeah, actually the onus IS on you. You posted about his veracity and he tore it to pieces. If you want to use him as a source you are going to have to better than 'i dont have to prove it'.


I am done -- have a nice life . . .


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## valis

Thanks, you as well.


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## Johnny b

freedave said:


> He denies the established conventional view. You deny his evidence. I don't need to prove anything to you,, nor do I wish to try to convince you . . .


That's all he does. Denial, with bizarre claims addressed here long ago.
You came here with a challenge.
It was up to you to present and support those claims.
Obviously, you couldn't and now think you don't have to.

Why are you here if not to convince?
No one forced you to make statements.



> I don't need to prove anything to you


But you're here anyway?


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## Johnny b

freedave said:


> I have answers to the polio question, but there is no point . . .


You have no point to express but claim answers to a question about my memory.

Is it just the Sars-CoV-2 virus you deny or all viruses as Lanka proclaims?


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## Johnny b

freedave said:


> I am done -- have a nice life . . .


If you happen to come back.......

After 2 1/2 years of a pandemic, 1 million+ dead in the US from Covid-19, ~6 1/2 million dead world wide, why do you even think it's reasonable to deny the disease exists with the source discovered scientifically?

Are you also an anti-vaxxer?
I can see no other explanation.


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## Cookiegal

valis said:


> Thanks Karen...apologies


No need to apologize Tim.


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## Veedras

I started wearing a 3M surgical mask as a preventive against the flu, at least a year before Pope Fauci and his Branch Covidian fanatics took over. It works brilliantly. For over ten years I was getting flu two to five times _every_
year. For the 3+ years I have used the mask, I have gotten the flu once and zero common colds or COVID. No flu shots. No clotshots or boosters either. So far as I'm concerned all you need is a _real_ surgical mask, and worn everytime you go outside...all else is not only superfluous, but high risk.

With all that is known about the shots, the danger they pose, the body count to date, and how ineffective they are, I often wonder just what it would take to convince the vaccinites to 'just say no'. I now suspect there is nothing that would, so I don't bother.


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## Johnny b

Medical science and data convinced me vaccines have value , work well and are reasonably safe.
It also helps to have a family member that was a research scientist for Pfizer, inorder to understand issues and results. They're considerably more complex than anything appearing in the media or government literature.

Masks are important, So is reasonable social distancing.


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## Cookiegal

@Veedras,

Your post and the response to it have been moved to the thread in the Controversial Topics forum. The thread in Random is not for debating the value of vaccines, masks etc. or anything else related to Covid. It's just for general discussion about whati s happening in your area. Please keep that in mind when posting in the future.


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## Wino

I wear KN95 mask (since Covid scare) when out; avoid crowds all possible; get annual flu shots; have had four Pfizer Covid shots and will get a fifth when approved. Have had some sinus problems, but no flu or major colds in years. Having radiation treatments for lung cancer along with COPD, the last thing I want or need is a lung infection of any type. I do not hang out with anti-vaxxers nor or they welcome in my home.
I've also had vaxx for small pox(2), polio, pneumonia, shingles, DPT, yellow fever and others not recalled at the moment.


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## Johnny b

I take all the right meds, all the needed vaccines, a proper diet and exercise.........and I grow old anyway 


But at least I get to grow old....:up:


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