# getting first website made



## kman1000 (May 28, 2005)

I am getting my first website made and I have been chatting with the individual that will design my site. I told him that I am learning programming myself and html/css. So, after he builds the site I want to be able to control absolutely everything with total power no matter how tedious it may seem.

I inquired about whether or not he hand-codes the website in html/css and he said he does. That is good. I told him that I do not want any CMS on my site. He wrote this (amongst other things as well): 


my developer said:


> I can't fathom building a new web site without a CMS, particularly a content-based site (precisely what content management systems were invented for). It's not something you can easily add on later down the road, you would need to essentially rebuild the site from scratch. It would also be basically impossible to add any kind of commerce functions or even a login system to implement the premium content area.
> 
> Perhaps you are thinking that using a CMS means you can't hand-code HTML?


http://www.collegemediainnovation.org/blog/2009/09/guest-post-hand-coding-vs-cms-hand-coding-gives-essential-experience/
^ This site recommends that I do everything by hand-coding it. But my developer says "he can't fathom building a site without some CMS".

So, my question is what do you think? Should I just ditch this guy and move on? OR Is he correct? Do I absolutely have to have at least some kind of CMS for a. the login system I require AND b. the premium content area that will be on my site? Thank you!


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## dukevyner (Nov 4, 2011)

here's the thing... if you hand code the site... it WOULD be easy to add in a cms... i've done it... if you build the site then try add something like wordpress or joomla then you will have a hard time incorporating it with your site...it just takes takes more time to hand code a cms, and most developers won't want to when they can simply use a open source library... if "(he) can't fathom building a site without some CMS". he's probably not got any experience actually coding anything and likely relies on templates and libraries... i can't make a suggestion as to weather i would use his services, as i would just do it my self... but with what i have said, if i didn't know much... i certainly wouldn't use him... just remember that hand coding will take longer... and cost you more... if you are gunna use libraries and a cms... do it your self it's super easy otherwise look up tutorials, or look around until you find someone that you are completely happy with


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## kman1000 (May 28, 2005)

What about the comment he made below:



my developer said:


> It would also be basically impossible to add any kind of commerce functions or even a login system to implement the premium content area.


^ Is this also totally incorrect? Because I do need both a login system and a premium content area. (amongst other things)


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## kman1000 (May 28, 2005)

Hmm, I can't edit my above post. Anyway, I just wanted to also ask you, Duke, in the future so I will not have this type of situation again how should I word what I want to say to potential developers that I e-mail about building me a site that will 100% let them know that I only want a site that is 100% hand-coded and built to where after he is finished I can change absolutely anything I want with full control of the site?


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## DoubleHelix (Dec 10, 2004)

It makes absolutely no sense to pay someone a small fortune for a complex website coded in Notepad that you'll probably never be able to maintain or will consume huge amounts of your time.

There are excellent tools out there that make web development, content management, and e-commerce ridiculously easy.


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## kman1000 (May 28, 2005)

I do not understand what you are saying, DoubleHelix... Please elaborate.

Are you saying that I should just do everything myself and as a rule do not pay others to do it for me if it pertains to creating/maintaining a website? If so, then I guess I could do that. I just wanted to pay someone else to do it because of their creativity. It's like paying someone else to paint me a picture. Sure, I can paint my own picture but it will be fugly compared to a professional artist like Bob Ross.


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## allnodcoms (Jun 30, 2007)

Your web dev has seen the spec sheet and decided that the easiest way to go would be a CMS. He's recommended an 'out of the box' solution because he is either unwilling or unable to write the more secure sections himself. Changing your page content by hand (ie in notepad or Dreamweaver or whatever else floats your boat) is not the problem, it's the secure sections of the site that he would be using the CMS for, and if he's using those, may as well go the whole hog...

That's how I see it anyway, he's just avoiding the need to reinvent the wheel for sign ins. It's not a bad thing, it's just a bit lazy IMHO.

Danny


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## Ent (Apr 11, 2009)

The obvious first question is "what is this site?".
The second is probably "What are you paying for it?".

Yes there's lazy, but there's also "That is way too big a job for me to tackle" and "You seriously expect me to write you a full CMS for that kind of money?"


Incidentally while I agree with the policy of hand coding early sites for the purpose of gaining experience, as per your web link, I'm not sure whether you get quite the same benefit asking someone else to hand code it for you.


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## kman1000 (May 28, 2005)

@Danny - Ok, that is kinda what I thought as well. He "can't fathom building a site without CMS" to me translates to he doesn't know how to most likely.

@Josiah - I may just end up doing it myself. I, for the life of me, can't find a single hardcore developer that makes the types of websites that I like AND does everything by hand. And I have been looking for at least an hour every day for something like eight days. And the guy was going to charge me $6000. I don't know if that is a good price to hand code everything or not but I would have paid it if he was willing to do everything by hand. 

Guess I have no choice but to do it myself even though it probably will not be as professional like if I had paid someone to do it.


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## Ent (Apr 11, 2009)

As with everything a reasonable price would depend on what kind of website you were after, and how much work you expected him to put into it, and how good/busy he is. 

Two quick tips while you're onto the "write everything by hand" mantra:
1: It is still perfectly acceptable (and sensible) to do a rough prototype using a WYSIWYG type program. You can discard the prototypes once you've written the clean code, but it helps if you've got something to aim for.
2: Hand written code isn't automatically any cleaner or more valid than computer-generated code; you do have to put in the effort to make sure it's valid and uses appropriate technology (e.g. CSS, not flash)


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## DoubleHelix (Dec 10, 2004)

Why do you care how the site is coded? If I hire a builder to build me a house, I don't care if he uses a hammer or a nail gun.


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## kman1000 (May 28, 2005)

@Ent - I'll keep this in mind with my initial work. Thank you!

@DoubleHelix - Regarding the house analogy, not quite. But anyway, I care because I actually know how to use HTML a little bit. Not much at all but a little bit I do know. After he (or whoever creates my site if I am able to find someone) finishes the site then I will be the one taking care of it myself. I want to be able to change everything myself with total control. By having a 100% hand coded site I will be able to change absolutely everything on the site even if it might take a bit of time to change. It gives me the experience I need and besides after I gain that much-needed experience, I can start using a CMS later.


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## DoubleHelix (Dec 10, 2004)

Yes, you can use a CMS later. That will require a complete re-design. With a good CMS, you have lots of control over how the site looks. 

I think you're making a huge mistake in thinking a complex CMS, e-commerce website can best be coded and managed in a text editor, but it sounds like you'll just have to find out the hard way.


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## kman1000 (May 28, 2005)

I still do not quite get what you are emphasizing, DoubleHelix. At first you implied that I should not pay tons of money to company to create a CMS site that I can easily create myself and then you write the above post. I don't get it. 

With the experience I gain from using the hand-coded site, whenever I do decide to add the CMS won't it or shouldn't it be pretty easy with all the experience I will have gained? Is that not the point of what I'm doing in my learning? Like I said, the only reason I wanted to pay someone is because I am assuming that they will have great design skills like drawing, matching colors, painting, etc. etc. (I can not draw for anything)


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## allnodcoms (Jun 30, 2007)

I think you're confusing _hand coded_ with _hand edited_, and there is a big difference. Changing the content of your site, by hand, is no big issue and you will not learn that much by doing so. Adding a membership database for secure login, and integrating this with a shopping cart will require a completely different set of skills. All of a sudden you are looking at basic database management, server side coding and a good working knowledge of the client / server relationships and how these relate to security. All of this to allow someone to log in...

As an example, if you were selling a limited number of the same item, hand _editing_ would be manually changing the number of available items every time someone bought one. Hand _coding_ would be writing the PHP that queried the MySQL to pull your stock level from a database and echo it into the HTML prior to it leaving your server. You are not going to learn the latter by doing the former I'm afraid.

So, going back to my previous post for a second, CMS comes with all the stuff to handle the user access, the security and they often have plugins that integrate with shopping carts and so on. It's true that your dev may not know _how_ to do this himself, but it's more likely that it is more viable (both in terms of his workload and the size of your final invoice) to just install a CMS and use the modules that you need for your project, than to _code_ each of them from scratch and bill you for the privilege.

Installing a CMS doesn't force you to use all of it, or stop you from hand _editing_ your content if that's what you want to do, but it will save you a butt load of time and money now, and not a small amount of hard work in the future.

Danny


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## kman1000 (May 28, 2005)

This developer DOES have his own proprietary CMS that he owns. He usually charges a monthly fee for the use of his CMS but I said that I wanted it all by hand and that's when our discussion started. This is some of what was said by the dev:



developer said:


> "1. I always hand-code HTML and CSS. The site will need to be built on some kind of content management system, though. We build on either our own Imagine CMS (built in-house, we license it to you monthly/yearly) or Wordpress (harder to use, but free)."





developer said:


> "It's pretty difficult to maintain a web site without one...(CMS) I'd only recommend that if the web site will likely never change (i.e. maintaining an archive of an old site)."





developer said:


> "I can't imagine not using a CMS of some kind... that would be going way back to the bad old days of building sites in the 90s. You need site and page templates, at the very least, so that when you make a footer change, you don't have to touch every page on the site by hand."


@allnodcoms - 
1. So, then I should use this particular dev, then? The developer said, "You need site and page templates, at the very least" but after reading your previous post, I do not want to be doing all of that technical stuff you wrote just yet SO what should I tell him that I want? How should I word it? (this is confusing...)

2. What should I be saying to this developer specifically to address what I want to do? I see your point now, allnodcoms. Now, I get it. You saw the problem. I thought that I could just do and learn all of what he did by somehow messing around with it after he built the site.

3. I also think I should reveal what it is the site I will have built is all about and then perhaps you can advise me much better. I just want to make sure I do this right since it going to cost me over $3000.

This is the description of my site that I sent to the developer to peruse:


description of site to developer said:


> For the site, I will be posting:
> - travel reviews (audio/video/pictures) of the places that I have
> - personal modeling pictures
> - gardening advice with tutorials
> ...


With all this said, your thoughts? Thank you!

Edit: 
I guess another important thing to ask is are all of the technical things you listed really that difficult to learn and then do on my own? I did not find HTML that hard to understand. I am still a beginner so perhaps I shouldn't say anything but that is what it seems like to me so far...


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## allnodcoms (Jun 30, 2007)

Let's go one at a time...

*Should you use this dev*?: No See below
*What should you be saying to him*? "Bye Bye!"
*$3,000?*  I would hold on to hot bricks for longer! Drop him yesterday! What you are asking for is essentially a personal site, it's not a business yet (though it may become so in time), and if I charged someone a third of that I'd be ashamed of myself. He then wants monthly royalties to use his "bespoke" CMS? Shoot him and bury the body. Then dig it up and shoot him again. Twice.
The knowledge required to do this yourself is not difficult to learn, if you know anything about programming it should come really quickly, but I don't suggest you go down this route. I'd go looking for another developer, and don't mention business.

You are looking at a blog site, you are sharing you knowledge and experience, which is what blogs are all about. After you've built up your catalogue of content then come back to us and we'll see what we can do to move it forward, but for now, if you have a domain name and a hosting package (which is pretty cheap) you are basically going to be paying a designer to theme an Open Source solution for you, and you're looking at a couple of hundred quid (in English) tops...

$3,000? I'm in the wrong country! 

Danny


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## kman1000 (May 28, 2005)

Yes, it is basically a personal site for now. I want to eventually turn it into some sort of business. I called it a business because I do have my GE tax just in case my business does make some money and I have to report it on my taxes. (if someone signs up for the premium access material on my site) It's a sole proprietorship.



allnodcoms said:


> if you have a domain name and a hosting package (which is pretty cheap)


I read somewhere that the best is http://www.networksolutions.com/ so I think I will go with that. I think these two things will cost me about $140 total. This is the breakdown -> I think I will choose the small hosting package there for $10 a month and then private registration for $10 although I am not I need that...

I will choose the recommended Unix for the platform for the nsHosting product even though I use Windows and know nothing about Unix really...


allnodcoms said:


> you are basically going to be paying a designer to theme an Open Source solution for you, and you're looking at a couple of hundred quid (in English) tops


Oh ok, so what I should be e-mailing to developer/web design companies that have websites in the portfolio area of the site that I like is, "I need to have a personal site themed (can I say "designed" also or is that different?). How much do you charge?"

So far, I have ONLY been able to find three sites that have sites in their portfolio that I really really like. And I have put in over 50 hours of solely searching Google for sites that I like. Here they are: 
1. http://www.websiteshawaii.com/
2. cameronmoll.com/portfolio
3. http://31three.com/

With the #1, the owner said that he is not taking any more new clients. I asked when he would start taking them again and he said that he is not taking anymore period. Very frustrating since this isn't listed anywhere on his site.
With #2, he just didn't respond to any of my e-mails. 
With #3, he said that he needs to catch on his projects since he only does 2-3 a month. I asked how long would I have to wait and then he said that he takes on projects that he feels is a match for his company. He said he usually only does the designing side of things and not creating websites from scratch so he would not take on my project.

With what you have written in your last post, allnodcoms, should I just try to get #3 to theme or design a site for me? Although I am not sure how much he charges since no price is listed on his page. But seeing that he only takes on 2-3 projects a month, I am assuming that he is extremely expensive with the quality of his work...


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## dvk01 (Dec 14, 2002)

I would start with wordprees for your requirements
If you can't easily find a stock default free theme that you like, then pay for a purpose designed theme ( probably somewhere between $50-$200 ) 

WP has all the plugins you need to run a safe & secure e-commerce site based around a blog which is what you appear to want 
WP is also easily altered by you to add or remove almost anything
Why reinvent the wheel


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## allnodcoms (Jun 30, 2007)

You know that Open Source thing I was talking about? 

Derek is spot on with the WP recommendation. You might also want to try something like this. It's a lot cheaper than the options you've been looking into, and you could try the customisation your self.

Good Luck!

Danny


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## colinsp (Sep 5, 2007)

I agree with all the other comments, forget this guy and go with Wordpress, it will do everything you want. The developers comments about WP being difficult is BS.

Checkout the most popular free themes on http://wordpress.org. My personal favourite is Suffusion, I now have about 15 sites running on this for various people. The support forum is very helpful and the theme is regularly enhanced.

Whichever theme you choose check out its support forum first to see that you will get the support you need. Alternatively find someone locally who works with Wordpress who will help you configure it.

Before you jump with a host or domain registrar check them out on Google first to see the good and the bad about them from their existing customers. Imho ideally for your own security choose a different domain registrar from hosting provider.


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## kman1000 (May 28, 2005)

I will go at this using WP then. Ill get started this afternoon. I am going to try to mimic one of the three sites that I mentioned above. OR I will have the theme of that site made for me.

With this method, I can get this website idea started pronto and then I can get to focusing on the content of my site. I can re-visit this thread in a couple of months assuming that the site is doing well.

Any specific recommendations for the best domain registrars and best hosting providers?
http://lifehacker.com/5683682/five-best-domain-name-registrars
http://webdesign.about.com/od/domainnameregistries/tp/best-domain-registrars.htm
http://lifehacker.com/5911651/five-best-web-hosting-companies

Are there any legal issues I need to worry about in regards to the ownership of my site and my content since I will be using Open Source 'free' WP? Traditionally, I am always skeptical about anything that is supposedly 'free' hence why my first instinct was to pay to have one made. I do believe you get what you pay for. (most of the time anyway) Your thoughts..


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## Ent (Apr 11, 2009)

kman1000 said:


> Are there any legal issues I need to worry about in regards to the ownership of my site and my content since I will be using Open Source 'free' WP? Traditionally, I am always skeptical about anything that is supposedly 'free' hence why my first instinct was to pay to have one made. I do believe you get what you pay for. (most of the time anyway) Your thoughts..


Your content is yours. End of story. 
Wordpress is released under the GPL, which is among the most used, rigorous and reliable freeware licenses.


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## DoubleHelix (Dec 10, 2004)

kman1000 said:


> I will go at this using WP then. Ill get started this afternoon. I am going to try to mimic one of the three sites that I mentioned above. OR I will have the theme of that site made for me.
> 
> With this method, I can get this website idea started pronto and then I can get to focusing on the content of my site. I can re-visit this thread in a couple of months assuming that the site is doing well.
> 
> ...


The exchanging of money for services has absolutely nothing to do with content ownership. You need to be very clear about that in the *contract* you sign with someone you hire. Without a clear, legal contract, whoever you hire can take your idea, code, and content and use it for themselves or sell it to someone else.

As far as websites or services, you need to be actually *reading* the entire license agreement to be certain about content ownership and rights. This can and does vary by site. Flickr's EULA will not be the same as Dropbox, as an example.

I suggest you spend a lot more time learning about contracts and agreements and less time learning HTML in Notepad. Even if this is just your hobby, you could easily lose a lot of money and a lot of intellectual property if you make the wrong decisions.


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## kman1000 (May 28, 2005)

Sorry, I didn't started this last week. I just got around to this now. 

For hosting, I have decided to go with what Wordpress themselves recommended: Bluehost 

For the domain registrar, as I mentioned I'm choosing: networksolutions.com 
^ I'm thinking just the private domain registration since I don't want my personal information to be public. 

For the FTP client, I have: CuteFTP 

For the text editor I have: Notepad
It mentioned "Notepad++" and "Notepad2" on WP site. I can not just use regular ole "Notepad" ?

Also, I am using Windows XP SP3 and not Linux so I hope that is not a problem...


Anything else I need to know before I purchase on networksolutions, then after that purchase on bluehost, and then get started with WP?


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## colinsp (Sep 5, 2007)

Yes you can use Notepad BUT Notepad++ is free and does code highlighting and many more things that Notepad doesn't do which make your life coding much easier. 

As you are going with Wordpress look at the most popular free themes to start with and try them out, you may not have much coding to do.

I don't know anything about your domain registrar but your hosting company has a good reputation. I think that you have all bases covered.


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