# buy new car



## supersparky (May 28, 2007)

i would like to know that at the car dealer, the invoice that dealer show how much they paid for the manufacture is always correct?, can the dealer have the invoice mark up the price from the manufacture ?, and how do i find out exactly how much it worth .Thank you very much.


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## DoubleHelix (Dec 10, 2004)

Aside from this not being at all related to computers, you will never know exactly what a dealer paid for a car anymore than you can know what Wal-Mart paid for a TV.


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## hewee (Oct 26, 2001)

Some car maker have at there site what they sell there cars to dealers for and any other rebates a dealer gets so you can find out what a dealer really paid for a car and also if they got any added money back that really lowered the cost more. I know I seen it at Ford's web site in the pass but don't know about others.

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=what+dealers+pay+for+cars&aq=t&oq=What+dealer

Plus they say if your selling a car too to get a price on what they will give you first before dealing with the price on buying.


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## Stoner (Oct 26, 2002)

supersparky said:


> i would like to know that at the car dealer, the invoice that dealer show how much they paid for the manufacture is always correct?, can the dealer have the invoice mark up the price from the manufacture ?, and how do i find out exactly how much it worth .Thank you very much.


There is the manufacturer's suggested retail price, but the price the dealer pays is difficult to figure. There are rebates to the dealer that are figured at the end of a sales period dependent on the volume the dealer sells plus incentives from the manufacturer on specific models.

A TSG member, Guyzer, is in auto sales and can probably provide some good info on the subject. You might ask him in a PM.


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## angelize56 (Apr 17, 2002)

Hiya Smilin' Jack....I bet you love supersparky's member name!


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## Stoner (Oct 26, 2002)

angelize56 said:


> Hiya Smilin' Jack....I bet you love supersparky's member name!


But you are and always will be .......'Sparky' with a capital 'S'..................


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## Alys (Apr 24, 2007)

A dealer will always charge you more for a car than what they paid for it from the manufacture, know why? so they profit from it to pay for leasing the building they operate from, pay their employee's, and any other fee's or profits that need to be covered or made. For example, my boyfriend works at best buy, for his staff discount he pays what the company paid for plus 10% of that price, so if something is being sold for 300 but the company bought it for 100 he would pay 110 for it. Hope that makes sense.


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## JohnWill (Oct 19, 2002)

I visit Kelly Blue Book and Edmonds when I'm shopping for a car, new or used.


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## BlackSpike (Jan 31, 2007)

IMHO: Does it matter what the dealer paid?
What is important is how much you are being asked to pay.
If the dealer payed $500, and is asking you for $600, is that better or worse than the dealer paying $50 and asking you for $500?
Are these new cars or used you are talking about?

In a Capitalist Economy, an item is worth exactly the amount someone will pay for it.
Check other dealers, see how much they are charging and compare prices.


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## JohnWill (Oct 19, 2002)

That's a short sighted viewpoint. Just because other people are over paying for something, that doesn't mean you have to. If you don't have a realistic idea of what the car actually costs the dealer, there's no way you can make the best deal possible.

OTOH, I'll bet you're a car dealer's delight, someone that comes in with no idea what he should pay for the car!


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## Stoner (Oct 26, 2002)

Don't forget, the dealer is also competing for the sale and must judge what they think will be an accepted price.
So, what a dealer pays is important as a volume dealer is more likely to purchase at a greater discount from the manufacturer and pass along some of that savings as an incentive to the buyer to purchase at that dealership..............
So.......... it does matter.


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## BlackSpike (Jan 31, 2007)

JohnWill said:


> That's a short sighted viewpoint. Just because other people are over paying for something, that doesn't mean you have to. If you don't have a realistic idea of what the car actually costs the dealer, there's no way you can make the best deal possible.
> 
> OTOH, I'll bet you're a car dealer's delight, someone that comes in with no idea what he should pay for the car!





> Check other dealers, see how much they are charging and compare prices.


 I think this implies an idea of how much to pay.

Is it possible to check the Dealer's overheads? How much rent they pay for premises, employees wage levels, Bad Debt provision? If you don't have a realistic idea of what the car costs the dealer to buy/stock/sell, there's no way to know if the deal you made is the best you could have got.



> pass along some of that savings as an incentive to the buyer to purchase at that dealership


Meaning a cheaper price. 
Yes, cost to dealer affects cost to customer, but it is rarely a simple relationship.

EDIT: P.S. Car dealers do not like me much, on account of very rarely buying a car. Once I have bargained for the best deal I can get (with more regard for how much I think I should pay, rather than how much the dealer paid), I keep the car for as long as possible, doing as much maintenance myself as I can.


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## aarhus2004 (Jan 10, 2004)

Every post.


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## Stoner (Oct 26, 2002)

Could be worse, I could have posted something about playing music:

http://forums.techguy.org/tech-tips-tricks/420218-winme-users-only-17.html#post4817179


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## aarhus2004 (Jan 10, 2004)

Down with JohnWill


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## JohnWill (Oct 19, 2002)

aarhus2004 said:


> Down with JohnWill


Interesting idea, I'm glad everyone doesn't share your view.


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## aarhus2004 (Jan 10, 2004)

JohnWill said:


> Interesting idea, I'm glad everyone doesn't share your view.


John, you cannot possibly know about 'everyone'. You don't even know what is my view. I have mountains of respect for you but occasionally I have to stick my tongue out (your smiley was perfect for that) just so I am not overwhelmed.

If you were perfect, or trying to be, then that would be a different story. Please respond with a new smiley for my collection.

Cheers.

Ben.


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## JohnWill (Oct 19, 2002)

I don't have to know about 'everyone' to make my statement correct. I just have to know about 'someone' that doesn't share that view.









Now, all I have to do is find that 'someone'!


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## pedroguy (Jan 28, 2001)

Ok:Here is my experience.I used to work at Corporate HQ for a large auto manufacturer.We could buy cars/trucks at dealer cost.A friend of mine priced out a car,model and all the options at HQ.He then went to the largest dealer around(also was one of the largest in the US) and was quoted a price that was lower then he could get it at HQ.Reasons were apparently,end of the month dealer incentives and the very large "flooring allowance" that HQ was giving this dealer.The dealer then passed on some of this to car buyers.
Cannot say if that would have happened the next month or the month after,but it was the case when my friend bought and that was all he needed to know.
I purchased some vehicles from HQ and when I checked dealer prices,my price was 25-30% lower than dealer,so it just depends on timing,I guess.


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## Guyzer (Jul 3, 2004)

Stoner said:


> A TSG member, Guyzer, is in auto sales and can probably provide some good info on the subject. You might ask him in a PM.


" Was " in the car business is the correct term as of yesterday. 

In any event to answer the original question. Yes, the invoice the dealer shows you, if he shows you, is what they paid for the car... but...there are certain incentives that are hidden by the mfg's from the public and they are know as " holdbacks " . The amount of the holdback depends on many factors. Some could be model, volume of sales etc. and the dealer will never share those with a buyer, not even staff so don't try to use that as a tool to negotiate because it will probably get you kicked out of the joint. There is no industry standard for those holdbacks and they usually amount to a few hundred $ per unit at best. I could be wrong because I've never been on the inside track so to say but reliable sources have given me that info.  Also, do not confuse those incentives with the ones you see in everyday advertising because they are both very different. As far as the publics incentives are concerned the dealers don't as a rule make any more profit regardless of which option is chosen unless they deliberately cheat the customer. It's unfortunate that in order to get the best deal one must be a master negotiator but we as consumers have set ourselves up for it. Your best chance of getting the " best deal " is to try and buy a car within your marketing district and while doing so kindly inform your salesperson that you really would prefer to buy locally. Tell him / her that you expect him / her to work for you but keep one thing in mind. Nobody wants to work for free for obvious reasons. Any person that expects to pay a buck over invoice ( more on that in a bit ) is not being reasonable. As someone said before the dealership huge expenses. Hell, everyone has to eat including the salesman and to expect anything else I would be forced to ask you to leave my lot now... and I have done so.  One other thing... in the average deal there isn't thousands to be made so don't believe everything you hear. I had to see a lot of cars to put food on my table.

Pssstttttt.... we had a $1.00 over invoice sale last Dec. or Jan. and only managed to sell one new unit because people didn't believe what we showed them. They thought we were all bald faced liars when in fact it was 100% true. Stupid, stupid people......


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## Guyzer (Jul 3, 2004)

pedroguy said:


> Ok:Here is my experience.I used to work at Corporate HQ for a large auto manufacturer.We could buy cars/trucks at dealer cost.A friend of mine priced out a car,model and all the options at HQ.He then went to the largest dealer around(also was one of the largest in the US) and was quoted a price that was lower then he could get it at HQ.Reasons were apparently,end of the month dealer incentives and the very large "flooring allowance" that HQ was giving this dealer.The dealer then passed on some of this to car buyers.
> Cannot say if that would have happened the next month or the month after,but it was the case when my friend bought and that was all he needed to know.
> I purchased some vehicles from HQ and when I checked dealer prices,my price was 25-30% lower than dealer,so it just depends on timing,I guess.


No offense pedroguy but a dealer can't sell you a car for less that they pay and every dealer pays the same. The only difference for some is the Freight / Delivery charge. Some chare more that others depending where it comes from. Some are exactly the same across the country and location makes no difference. If what you say is correct the HQ was feeding you a pile of el-toro poo-poo as far as the price was concerned. 
Can't trust those damn HQ guys


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## aarhus2004 (Jan 10, 2004)

JohnWill said:


> I don't have to know about 'everyone' to make my statement correct. I just have to know about 'someone' that doesn't share that view.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


You are a good man, John. For the smilies my thanks.

Ben.


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## pedroguy (Jan 28, 2001)

Guzer:I really beleive the HQ prices that we were quoted were pretty accurate.Just in my limited experience.


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## JohnWill (Oct 19, 2002)

As I previously mentioned, there are many public sources of the invoice price for cars. Correctly stated by Guyzer, there are some other dealer incentives that don't show up on the invoice, but it's much more difficult to obtain those. The invoice at least gives you a baseline, because you'll rarely get a dealer to sell you a car for less than the invoice price.

You can also research the average selling price for a specific model in your area, another way to see how good a deal you're getting.

Let's also not forget one of the most important parts of buying a car if you're using a trade-in, the trade-in price! I went to several places and priced the private party sale price and the dealer trade-in price for my trade-in when I bought my 350Z. I ended up getting the private party sale price, and getting $1000 off the average selling price for the car in my area. That was after a significant amount of haggling, but it was worth it. 

Some folks may actually get a better deal, but I'm sure a lot of folks don't do as well.


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## Guyzer (Jul 3, 2004)

JohnWill said:


> As I previously mentioned, there are many public sources of the invoice price for cars. Correctly stated by Guyzer, there are some other dealer incentives that don't show up on the invoice, but it's much more difficult to obtain those. The invoice at least gives you a baseline, because you'll rarely get a dealer to sell you a car for less than the invoice price.


 The only time I have ever seen a new car sold for less than invoice was when the car had been sitting for a long time and the new model years were released. Matter of fact I witnessed a 2 year old new car almost given away. No dealer will sell one below cost. They would be out of business in a flash. 


JohnWill said:


> You can also research the average selling price for a specific model in your area, another way to see how good a deal you're getting.


The list price will always be the same regardless and any salesman that gives you a lower price before you are ready to buy is either an idiot, a greenhorn or wants to set the hook with a pile of bs. 


JohnWill said:


> Let's also not forget one of the most important parts of buying a car if you're using a trade-in, the trade-in price! I went to several places and priced the private party sale price and the dealer trade-in price for my trade-in when I bought my 350Z. I ended up getting the private party sale price, and getting $1000 off the average selling price for the car in my area. That was after a significant amount of haggling, but it was worth it.


I've seen that happen many times but only by educated people and those with lots of time. The more in a hurry for a new car the more you're going to pay if the salesman knows his stuff. Something else to consider in that deal John is if you gave the dealer some time to research your trade they may have had it pre-sold. With that number it makes closing your deal easier. We have had to let a " deal walk " for $25.00 because it just wasn't there.


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## JohnWill (Oct 19, 2002)

Guyzer said:


> JohnWill said:
> 
> 
> > You can also research the average selling price for a specific model in your area, another way to see how good a deal you're getting.
> ...


I think you missed my point.  I don't research the price at the dealer, but rather the aforementioned sites, as well as many automotive forums around the net. I realize that the dealer isn't going to tell me the average selling price.  The list price is readily available from the auto maker's site or a bunch of other places.


Guyzer said:


> I've seen that happen many times but only by educated people and those with lots of time. The more in a hurry for a new car the more you're going to pay if the salesman knows his stuff. Something else to consider in that deal John is if you gave the dealer some time to research your trade they may have had it pre-sold. With that number it makes closing your deal easier. We have had to let a " deal walk " for $25.00 because it just wasn't there.


I was truthfully somewhat surprised that I was able to get them to give me the money, they started out $1500 lower. I can only think that it was because the car was low mileage and very clean that they figured it was an easy sell for a profit.


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## Guyzer (Jul 3, 2004)

JohnWill said:


> I realize that the dealer isn't going to tell me the average selling price.


But John there really isn't any " average selling price. " The final price is highly dependent on your ability to negotiate and what you get at one dealership doesn't mean you will get even close to at another. There are many variables that a sales manager takes into account when they approve a deal and that can change hour by hour or day by day. I have had a manager approve a deal for X amount one day and decline something close the next. If it's just a matter of a few hundred bucks or so then I guess one could classify it as " average " but I would never buy a car somewhere based on that alone. Unfortunately, I have seen all the mis-information the web has to offer because " everyone " comes armed to the teeth and they know it all. I could slap all the proof I could muster in front of some customers and in the end they still think we ( salesmen ) are a bunch of liars. I have seen many a person pay more at another dealership because they were to darn proud to admit their research was full of holes and therefore worthless. Unless you are on the inside you'll never know if you got a bad deal, fair deal or a great deal. The days of paying thousands less is dead because the mfg's have eaten into the profits and it just isn't there anymore.


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## Guyzer (Jul 3, 2004)

JohnWill said:


> I was truthfully somewhat surprised that I was able to get them to give me the money, they started out $1500 lower. I can only think that it was because the car was low mileage and very clean that they figured it was an easy sell for a profit.


It's a numbers game for the dealership and they obviously wanted or needed the deal. Mfg's set targets for the dealerships and allocation is based quite a bit on them achieving it. In the end they can always write the trade down or take out of their slush fund if they have to. ( every dealer has a nice little fund hidden away to allow for those things ... ) Or they can sell it for whatever amount and make less. I have seen dealerships loose money on trades. If they don't they ain't sticking their neck out far enough and I wouldn't work for such a place. The whole thing is a crap shoot.


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## JohnWill (Oct 19, 2002)

Well, it was also the end of the month, and the end of the quarter, that might have helped with the pricing.  The "average selling price" is on either Kelly's or Edmonds, maybe both. That's the one I was referring to.


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## Guyzer (Jul 3, 2004)

JohnWill said:


> Well, it was also the end of the month, and the end of the quarter, that might have helped with the pricing.


Probably did...


JohnWill said:


> The "average selling price" is on either Kelly's or Edmonds, maybe both. That's the one I was referring to.


Both of those are ignored by dealers here in Canada and even if someone came in with info from them or any other it wouldn't have any bearing on how the deal was made. There's lots that goes on behind the managers closed door.


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## JohnWill (Oct 19, 2002)

I realize that the dealer wouldn't pay any attention to the average selling price, it's for the consumer's benefit.

Remember, the more informed you are, the better deal you will be able to make. I'm not disputing the dealer's processes, everyone knows that the name of the game is to make as much on the sale as the traffic will bear.  I also agree that there is bound to be a "floor" price for any deal that you will not be able to break through. The object of the exercise is to reach that price, or come as close as you can. :up:


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## Guyzer (Jul 3, 2004)

JohnWill said:


> The object of the exercise is to reach that price, or come as close as you can. :up:


To that I say good luck because as a consumer you will never know and I mean that sincerely.
I always thought I was a great negotiator when it came to buying cars, and I've bought a pile of 'em, but I have to admit I didn't know a damned thing until I got into the business. It's an eye opener I tell ya.


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## JohnWill (Oct 19, 2002)

I'm afraid you impart too many "magical" powers upon car dealers. I guess your message here is to simply throw up your hands and pay whatever they ask.


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## Guyzer (Jul 3, 2004)

JohnWill said:


> I'm afraid you impart too many "magical" powers upon car dealers. I guess your message here is to simply throw up your hands and pay whatever they ask.


I'm not saying that at all. What I am saying though is you can research until your blue in the face and it may or may not help. In the long run it boils down to the fact that " you feeling good " about the deal you made. Some people are happy with a hundred bucks, some 500 and some want the moon and they think their research will get them there. It usually doesn't but it's fun regardless what side of the fence you're on. The ones that I laugh at are the " friend of a friend " got his for 5000 less and by golly it's as true as I'm sittin' here. " They make me roar actually....

On second thought maybe I am imparting " too many "magical" powers upon car dealers " because in the end they really have the final say, not the consumer like we prefer to think.

In any event I'm out of the business for the time being. Maybe down the road I'll give it another wack but one thing I'm sure of..... I'll never get staff prices again unless I do.


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## hewee (Oct 26, 2001)

Even buying a new car at the right time of year can help you get a better deal even if you just go in and pay there asking price so if you can deal more with them you can get the price down more.


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