# Soldering Copper



## jackrabbit (Jul 23, 2003)

Can anyone (Moderator) tell me if it is ok to post a question that is work related? I'm a self employed plumber and builder with a job related question. I have searched Goggle and found no answer, hoping someone here may have knowledge of my need. 
Figured I'd ask first so as not to upset anyone. If need be I can use email for the question if need be.
Thanks,
Jack


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## cybertech (Apr 16, 2002)

I'm not sure why you posted this in the Do It Yourself Projects forum, but go ahead and ask your question. If it seems inappropriate I'll let you know. If I'm not sure I'll ask the other mods/admins.


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## kilowatt1 (Oct 27, 2001)

Hello jackrabbit.

I'm not a moderator, but there should not be a problem posting a work related question. The only question would be which forum would best suit the question. I suggest posting it here, as I'm sure a Mod will move it if the need arises.

Kilowatt


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## jackrabbit (Jul 23, 2003)

OK, I have a job comming up where I have to form, break, install, and solder copper parapet wall caps. I can solder copper drains or supply lines, but that is all hidden in walls. This copper will be exposed and everyone will see it so I can not discolor it or distort the shape (which a torch may do) I'm thinking you need to use a soldering iron and thiner than normal solder. Then there is the problem of cleaning and fluxing, you realy do not want to sand outside of the overlaped joints or you will see the scratches.


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## cybertech (Apr 16, 2002)

Sounds like a good question. Perhaps changing your thread title will get more response. You can PM me if you want to do that.

Good luck on the job!


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## jackrabbit (Jul 23, 2003)

By the way I posted it here because I saw someone asking for help on repairing a rotted garage door and figured if I (A building contractor) look through here to see if I can offer my knowledge to others, then mabe others look here too. If people need answers to small home project problems, I would gladly give my best advise and help if I could.


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## jackrabbit (Jul 23, 2003)

Cybertech, how do I PM you? I do not understand.


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## cybertech (Apr 16, 2002)

Click on my user name and and select send a private message.


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## cybertech (Apr 16, 2002)

jackrabbit said:


> By the way I posted it here because I saw someone asking for help on repairing a rotted garage door and figured if I (A building contractor) look through here to see if I can offer my knowledge to others, then mabe others look here too. If people need answers to small home project problems, I would gladly give my best advise and help if I could.


All of that is fine as long as you follow the forum rules.

http://www.techguy.org/rules.html


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## Jedi_Master (Mar 13, 2002)

Howdy folks...

jackrabbit...

I've never done this but from what you posted and all the info I can find is that it should be copper welded since it's going to be seen, led solder will blacken with age, and might be unsightly...

Here are some procedures for copper welding...

http://www.brazing.com/techguide/procedures/copper_welding.asp

Also from what I understand if you use lead solder you will need a high wattage iron possibly something like this...

http://www.coppercaps.com/solderingtorch.htm

I'm assuming you will be using copper sheets since you will be breaking and forming the caps, and not using preformed caps, what I would do isexperiment with some scrap peices to get a good temp that will solder with out any discoloration...

Also can you check with the manufacture of the copper sheets to get their input ?

JMO...


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## jackrabbit (Jul 23, 2003)

That second link you gave me looks promising, will check it out. Most places I get sheet copper from do not know much about anything but the price. I may check out a place called Arcet, they sell and maintain welders and sell welding and brazing equipment and supplies,


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## Jedi_Master (Mar 13, 2002)

Ok...



> Most places I get sheet copper from do not know much about anything but the price.


Ain't that the truth ...

Let us know waht you come up with with Arcet, I'd be interested to know...

I've never done what you are attempting, the closest I came was putting on a copper roof, and with that we drilled holes and used copper nails ( like putting on a tin roof )...


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## kilowatt1 (Oct 27, 2001)

Here is a link that might give a little insight and ideas. It doesn't mention soldering techniques specifically but it does go into details about installing various types of copper copings and parapets.

Good luck.

Kilowatt


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## jackrabbit (Jul 23, 2003)

I belive I'll invest some money in a soldering iron, I just tried my acetylene torch turned down low, solders good, but leaves too many burn marks and discoloration. Found some 16 oz copper plates I use for roof flashing, I'll practice on those, if it do'nt work, I'll sub it out.


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## Jedi_Master (Mar 13, 2002)

jackrabbit said:


> I belive I'll invest some money in a soldering iron, I just tried my acetylene torch turned down low, solders good, but leaves too many burn marks and discoloration. Found some 16 oz copper plates I use for roof flashing, I'll practice on those, if it do'nt work, I'll sub it out.


Hmmm...

Don't know if you tried it but I read somewhere ( in researching this ) that a 50/50 mixture of acetylene and air should be used, don't know how you have your torch setup...


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## blues_harp28 (Jan 9, 2005)

Hi..Most copper work is done without soldering..depending on the size of the wall caps..you can fold back each sheet back by approx half an inch and slot them together..
Once together..dress them down with either a copper dresser(wooden mallet)and they are weather proof..does that make sense?


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## jackrabbit (Jul 23, 2003)

straight acetylene, Jedi, I got a neat way to install copper so you have no nails showing! would have to draw it say with paint program, then email it, this works real good with copper or aluminum valley flashing too. I'll see if I can explain.
You first bent a 3/4" bend at the top edge of the bottom sheet, then using scrap pieces cut into 1" strips, you bend the end back 3/4" so you have a "hook." Place the "Hook" over the 3/4" bend in the top of the sheet you want to hold down. Next use any size roofing nail and nail down through the "Hook" but not into the plate itself. Set as many as needed, then bend another 3/4" bend on the next sheet, hook it, repeat until done, then use a block of wood and start beating down the seams!, Wala! all sheets are held firmly with no nails showing.


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## blues_harp28 (Jan 9, 2005)

Hi in addition to the above..use copper nails...chemical reaction otherwise..


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## jackrabbit (Jul 23, 2003)

I realy thought of your fold back idea, matter of fact I have a hand held break I use for forming seam locks on heating ducts, GC and architech wants welded seams, too bad huh??
(Maybe I could fool them) That chemical reaction is a bummer, some people don't realise that mixing two metals causes a reaction, plus after I install the caps on the parapet walls, the roofer will need to install his materials under my caps. (Would think the GC would want the roof done first, then let me do my work over top of his) Who knows, I worked for one once, he actualy had all the cabinets installed over raw sheetrock, the guys came in to mud the seams and freaked out, talk about bass akwards!


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## blues_harp28 (Jan 9, 2005)

Hi..with lead soldering (as you know) it weakens the lead..even more so with copper..
Copper soldering is only used if there is no alternative..
Bending the copper and dressing it down..is the way it's done in the UK..and passes all building regulations..


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## jackrabbit (Jul 23, 2003)

I'll talk to the builder and see if this will be ok, I would rather do it like that anyway


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## Jedi_Master (Mar 13, 2002)

jackrabbit said:


> plus after I install the caps on the parapet walls, the roofer will need to install his materials under my caps. (Would think the GC would want the roof done first, then let me do my work over top of his)


You're kidding, right ???

Don't care how you go about it the roofer needs to do his thing before you do yours...

I mean, after you do your thing, the roofer will need to undo all you did and then re-do what you did, which may/will cause damage to the caps you formed and installed...

And will cause the client to blame you for the damage to the caps, and then cause damage to your reputation as a contractor...

If this were my job I would say "hey this isn't happening this way, the roofer is going to do his thing, then I'm doing mine"...

JMO...


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## blues_harp28 (Jan 9, 2005)

I missed that point!!
The only covering under the copper caps..would be a soft felt underlay..unless he was laying marine ply or something..
Any roofer worth his salt(anyone know the origin of that expression)would have little or nothing to do..


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## jackrabbit (Jul 23, 2003)

Yeh, we all know the right way, but this guy wants to put stucco on this weekend and the windows will not be in till the end of next month. I asked his lead carpenter and he told me the GC's thing is to install the stucco up to the windows, install windows later, then stucco over the window flanges!. Looks to me like he will wind up with a few cracks in it by the time he is done, I don't know. And get this these window units are about 9' tall x 20' long double insulated low E. Storefront windows! he thinks his men will set them by hand, My lead carpenter told me that they installed some in N.J. and it required a crane. I think whta is going on here is that he needs to get a draw from the bank and wants to show like he's got more done than he realy doe's. And Bluesharp, the roof I'm not sure of the underlayment, but heard it will be soldered copper sheeting as it will be a garden roof

(Hey Bob, want to come over this weekend and watch the game?, No, I realy need to mow my roof this weekend!)


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## Jedi_Master (Mar 13, 2002)

Ahhh...yell...

Looks to me like a cluster $%^#...

My advice to you is to get with the roofer and work out a schedule on your work between yourselves, that way you can do your work after he does his...

As to this...



> I asked his lead carpenter and he told me the GC's thing is to install the stucco up to the windows, install windows later, then stucco over the window flanges!. Looks to me like he will wind up with a few cracks in it by the time he is done, I don't know. And get this these window units are about 9' tall x 20' long double insulated low E. Storefront windows! he thinks his men will set them by hand, My lead carpenter told me that they installed some in N.J. and it required a crane.


I don't know what to say but the General Contractor is whacked, so he is wanting to stucco up to the windows, and then re-stucco after they are installed ?

Ya he's going to get some cracks, and some uneven stucco to boot ( gonna look like crap )...

The 9'x20' windows how many people is he planning to have on hand to install these windows ( they're going to weigh quite a bit ) ?

Oh, and no offence, I've worked for a window manufacture and the Low-E doesn't add any significant weight to the window, it's just a coating on the glass  ...

But the size of the window is a problem...


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## jackrabbit (Jul 23, 2003)

BIG problem is right. Glad I won't be there! (Or will I  with camera rolling) May can turn it in to Americas Funniest Home Vidios.


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## john1 (Nov 25, 2000)

Hi,

I think copper is poisonous to plants.

Although some plants want a tiny trace of copper verdigris in the soil,
I dont think that many plants would survive in a large copper sealed tub,
I think it damages the roots of plants.

Maybe others have more on this,
is copper a suitable lining for a plant container ?

Some wet-rooms have a copper lining over the floor and a little up the
walls as a leakproofing arrangement, these usually have soldered joints
particularly where pipes enter and leave the wet-room.
Tiling would be done with the copperwork underneath.

As to using a blow-torch, i don't think that any type of flame would get
copper hot enough to solder without discolouration, in my experience
using many different types of gas torches, the copper starts to discolour
before soldering temperatures are reached.

An electric soldering iron is a possibility i suppose, but i dunno how
practical that would be for a lot of seams.
You can get soldering irons which will run a flame inside them, powered
by a butane/propane bottle, i would think they could be fairly large
and might do what you want. That would minimise the discolouration.

Any discolouration that you do get from a flame or heating the copperwork
doesn't need to be scraped off with abrasive paper or emery cloth, this
leaves scratches as you mentioned. The copperwork can usually be cleaned easily with metal polish unless its been badly overheated such as to
damage the surface.

I would not have thought it necessary to be concerned about the shiny
surface, because the exposed surface will start to assume the familiar
green appearance before too long (verdigris).

As to the salt reference, we were taught that this referred back to years
ago when salt was more valuable than it is nowadays, and sometimes people
working away from their homes would have some salt included as part of
their salary, it was also reckoned to be necessary to life. I think the
word 'salary' may be derived from the word 'salt'.

Large sheets of glass are very heavy, double glazed sections are very very
heavy, i would imagine that some machinery would be needed for positioning
even if its simple hoists. I doubt that they could be manhandled properly
unless there were many men with many suction cups. Sounds unlikely to me.

Maybe the delivery vehicle with the glass will have a small crane-unit
as part of its loading/unloading facility, maybe the window people want
to use the delivery lorry as part of the fitting ?

I would be interested to read more on this as it develops,
Regards, John


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## john1 (Nov 25, 2000)

Hi,

This is the sort of thing i meant,

http://www.masterappliance.com/ut200a.html

I don't think the one shown runs from a pipe to a separate 
gas bottle, i think this one is refilled like a cigarette lighter.
Haven't found one on the web that runs from a bottle, but i think
i have seen them before.
.








.
John


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## jackrabbit (Jul 23, 2003)

John, now that looks ideal!! I'll check it out, thanks.


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## cargorilla (May 28, 2008)

Yes, please sub it out. If you do it incorrectly you are subjecting yourself- and the owner- to unnecessary trouble. If you don't know how to do it, don't wing it. Particularly when it comes to waterproofing-related issues. The parapet cap is the walls' first line of defense against water intrusion. Improperly constructed parapet caps can lead to damage of not only the wall itself but the adjacent roof, interior finishes and the contents of the building. You really want to take that on, just because you didn't know how to install copper flashing?


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