# Why should I get a Mac?



## Suprem (Feb 18, 2005)

Hello every one. I've been gone for some time, but I am now back. I have a question and maybe some one can help me out with it, it's got to do with getting a mac. I'm looking to get out of the windows OS for good and I have heard nothing but good reviews from every one that I've encountered regarding macs.... Well I would like to know is why should I transfer over to mac and what would I get out of it in a long run?

I basically want you to convince me to get one. I don't like windows any more and I'm fully aware of the problems that it has. I'm not looking to have another OS laying around my bedroom floor, I already have 5+, so there is no need for another one. I'm looking for something that has some serious security in it and some thing that I can actually have fun with instead of it being an all around work station.


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## Headrush (Feb 9, 2005)

You answer the question yourself: "I don't like Windows anymore"

If you get a Intel Mac you have a choice of running Windows, OS X, and Linux.
Try them all and stay with the one you like best.

If you're looking for "feature" arguments why you should, there are some other threads with the exact same question that should cover it.


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## Serge_N_Gin (Sep 7, 2004)

Ultimately you need to determine exactly what you plan to do on the computer and do as much research as you can about any compatability issues ... we can advise you on a particular Mac that you have in mind but when it comes to a Platform it's got to be your call ... 

We'll help you transfer over to a Mac but I won't tell you why you should do it ...

But I will add that if you are fed up with Windows I'm confident the future is looking bright for you ...


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## Weisbrod (Sep 1, 2007)

You should get a mac because not only does it run smoothly with less hassle... it is also undeniably the most flexible platform available...

Did I mention it has applescript... sure sure... what's that you say... only one of the best kept secrets in the whole known universe... ( god I love that syntax )

plus it was designed to be a usable system... it was their focus from the start and true to this day that's where it shines... 

I am so damn mad that I type this post to you from a pc... I grew up on a mac and the last three years without one have been somewhat... creatively and developmentally stifling....

You pay for what you get... get a mac... you will not regret it...


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## ThreeDee912 (Feb 11, 2006)

```
property mac : true

if mac > pc then
	set mac to true
	display dialog "Get a Mac"
else
	set mac to false
	display dialog "Get a Mac anyway"
end if
```


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## ferrija1 (Apr 11, 2006)

It sounds like a Mac would be for you, but if you let us know a little more about how you're going to use it we can help even more.


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## loserOlimbs (Jun 19, 2004)

My experience:

Had G4s running OS9 and OSX, also the iMAC and eMAC.

The pros; 
A curvy design for the cases designed by Willy Wonka I'm sure.
Quick GUI

Cons;
Gui is counterintuitive and intrusive 
Lack of support from third parties, games and apps especially though this is slowly changing.
My Macs all had problems running multiple apps, photoshop 7 and Safari seemed to be hardcoded to crash when run together.

Lastly, they take a $700 PC, put it in Willy Wonka case, put the $100 OSX on it and sell the box for $2500!

Apple II was the primetime for Apple.


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## VegasACF (May 27, 2005)

loserOlimbs said:


> Wonderful insight


Then again, you list Wikipedia among your list of "useful research tools." Never mind. Strike the above assessment of your post.

:|


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## Couriant (Mar 26, 2002)

loserOlimbs said:


> My experience:
> 
> Had G4s running OS9 and OSX, also the iMAC and eMAC.
> 
> ...


sounds like you haven't been on a new mac 

The Intel machine is much better designed and the OS too.


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## loserOlimbs (Jun 19, 2004)

Updated OS, and Intel machines.

The OS says the stabilty should have increased, but the Intel machine really upsets me because you are paying a premium for regular Intel hardware in a pretty case.
Sadly this does not mean the GUI has improved any! Still intrusive and counterintuitive.

Now I will compliment the displays, they are very good for those who need accurate print color displayed, but they aren't the only company that does this either.

Lastly, www.Wikipedia.org is a great resource, and independent research groups have found it is just as accurate, sometimes more accurate than what are accepted as reputable resources like The Encyclopedia Britanica.


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## VegasACF (May 27, 2005)

loserOlimbs said:


> Lastly, www.Wikipedia.org is a great resource, and independent research groups have found it is just as accurate, sometimes more accurate than what are accepted as reputable resources like The Encyclopedia Britanica.


None of which you cite. Which puts you at the same level of credibility as Wikipedia. Maybe you want to recruit some Wiki users to support your notion, since that's the way Wiki is updated. Kudos. Perhaps you don't keep up with the news, but the Wiki entries for a vast number of subjects have been created or edited by those with a vested interest in the best spin that can be put on said subjects.

Now, when you want to cite some actual _scholarly_ source for your ramblings you may redeem yourself. But only slightly. Once someone cites a questionable source all further assertions by that someone are questionable at best. Sorry.

In any case, I continue to scoff, not only at you, but at your sweeping assertions based on hardware three generations old, but on the OS that was contemporary to those times. You want to compare apples to raisins. Sorry, but the better comparison is apples to grapes. And in that arena you fail miserably.

Maybe I'll compare the latest build of Mac OS X 10.4.10 to Windows 95. That would put things in a perspective that is similar to your frame of reference. Nah, no reason to do that. Vista is still a pale comparison to even the first iteration of Mac OS X.


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## Headrush (Feb 9, 2005)

loserOlimbs said:


> Lastly, www.Wikipedia.org is a great resource, and independent research groups have found it is just as accurate, sometimes more accurate than what are accepted as reputable resources like The Encyclopedia Britanica.


Problem is your facts are comparing Apple products to custom built white boxes.

Go to Dell and compare either a laptop or small desktop with the same parts as Apple's line and you will see the prices are almost identical.

You can argue you can make a custom white box yourself cheaper, that's fine.
The implication that Apple is an overpriced manufacturer compared to any other all-in-one box you would buy from any other manufacturer is a vestige of the past that people just won't let die.



loserOlimbs said:


> Sadly this does not mean the GUI has improved any! Still intrusive and counterintuitive.


Definitely personal opinion and not fact. Millions of people ever day say otherwise.
Drag and drop under OS X blows away any other OS, Windows, KDE, Gnome, Solaris. (and is incredibly powerful)
Problem with OS X is that all the glossy features get the spotlight and some of the incredible functionality is often missed even my seasoned users.


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## Weisbrod (Sep 1, 2007)

loserOlimbs said:


> Gui is counterintuitive and intrusive
> Lack of support from third parties, games and apps especially though this is slowly changing.
> My Macs all had problems running multiple apps, photoshop 7 and Safari seemed to be hardcoded to crash when run together.


Right... Like a can take a snapshot of my desktop ( and have a file to show for it ), part all windows to show the desktop with built in GUI shortcuts... OSX is slow and counter intuitive... just like dos is robust and full of features... when you start with **** you end up with **** no matter how much **** you pile on top of it...

Windows will never do this...

http://www.macworld.com/weblogs/macosxhints/2006/08/guiscale/

And here's a recent convert gushing over the OSX gui

http://jumpingship.wordpress.com/2007/08/12/all-osx-nowwith-some-vista-to-taste/

Plus I can run apps usually only found on an irix machine... Imagine that an OS based on unix... been around since the seventies... still going strong...

Windows seems to crash for me all the time too... especially when I run that **** called java... or... any video application on the planet for that matter... God... and swapping apps while using a scratch disk is just too painful to bear...

Now that I think about it... I can't even run Outlook without problems... Threaded email? What's a thread?

But honestly... This should say it all... Even Google doesn't like microsoft...

http://www.360psg.com/content/pages/microsoft-iis-malware.php

Oh... but your right... you have more games... they all rock too...

Don't make me benchmark you...


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## hermes (Aug 12, 2000)

I bought my first one less than six months ago. They obviously do not have the hardware versatility of PC but I like mine:
Because it starts up and shuts down quickly and easily and is stable, almost never crashing.
Because my user experience is no longer 50% housekeeping and firefighting.
Because the kids can't 'work' it.:up:


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## Suprem (Feb 18, 2005)

This is all great info and will come in handy for later on in the future. I should have listed what I plan to do with it "or" what I'm looking for. I'm looking for something that is all around- speed, security, support, easy to learn (Which will take time I know), playing games when bored, programming... Well to sum it all up something that is not like windows (Swiss Cheese)

I know that I have said that I don't like windows and more due to the "Issues" that they have, but it still doesn't actually mean that I won't still use it from time to time. I'm looking to get into something different and stay out of the windows part for good unless I actually need it.


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## absolutezero1287 (May 23, 2007)

imho, Macs are overpriced. I'm trying to build a computer to suit my needs. But for now the project's on hiatus. I'm not sure as to the legality of putting Mac OS on a computer that's not made by Apple but with a custom made box you can do w/e you want with it. Sure macs are pretty but they're also pretty pricey. Plus when you buy a PC from anyone you're paying for parts and labor. So a $3,000 PC may actually cost you less than half to build.


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## Couriant (Mar 26, 2002)

I do believe Apple does not authorize the installation onto a different machine entirely.

But I do not know if that would include virtual machines like VMWare.


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## Headrush (Feb 9, 2005)

absolutezero1287 said:


> imho, Macs are overpriced. I'm trying to build a computer to suit my needs. But for now the project's on hiatus. I'm not sure as to the legality of putting Mac OS on a computer that's not made by Apple but with a custom made box you can do w/e you want with it. Sure macs are pretty but they're also pretty pricey. Plus when you buy a PC from anyone you're paying for parts and labor. So a $3,000 PC may actually cost you less than half to build.


That's fine but people should be saying pre-packaged computers are too expensive for me, not Macs are pricey. The implication is that Apple computers are over priced compared to other similar makers like Dell, Gateway is not true.

Obviously Apple has chosen the areas they want to market to and if you are a power game player, or can't afford ~$1800 for a decent all around computer, you are not in their market.

Performance isn't the driving factor as much anymore as todays hardware handles pretty much everything sufficiently for most people with today's software. With the rise of powerful gaming consoles, Apple seems fine let these markets diverge and not worry about high end 3D gaming for computers.

We may not like it, but that is how it is. Time will tell if that was a good decision for Apple. It's hard to tell now because of the iphone/ipod factor on Mac sales.

And no, legally you can't install OS X on a PC or in a virtual machine in most countries.


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## ferrija1 (Apr 11, 2006)

absolutezero1287 said:


> imho, Macs are overpriced. I'm trying to build a computer to suit my needs. But for now the project's on hiatus. I'm not sure as to the legality of putting Mac OS on a computer that's not made by Apple but with a custom made box you can do w/e you want with it. Sure macs are pretty but they're also pretty pricey. Plus when you buy a PC from anyone you're paying for parts and labor. So a $3,000 PC may actually cost you less than half to build.


You can only legally put OS X on an Apple-manufactured machine since there is some little chip built into the hardware that the OS checks for.


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## okMike (Sep 5, 2007)

Price out an equivilent PC with the same hardware as an Intel MAC and you will find no price difference or even find the mac is less expensive. Plus you should take into acccount that the Mac uses faster memory that is not available on other platforms.


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## okMike (Sep 5, 2007)

A Mac Mini is a great starting point at a low price and the good thing with a mac is that you can run programs from any hard-drive attached to the machine.


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## loserOlimbs (Jun 19, 2004)

okMike said:


> Price out an equivilent PC with the same hardware as an Intel MAC and you will find no price difference or even find the mac is less expensive. Plus you should take into acccount that the Mac uses faster memory that is not available on other platforms.


Wait, what mac offers that? The Mac Pro at 667Mhz FSB?


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## ferrija1 (Apr 11, 2006)

okMike said:


> Price out an equivilent PC with the same hardware as an Intel MAC and you will find no price difference or even find the mac is less expensive. Plus you should take into acccount that the Mac uses faster memory that is not available on other platforms.


No, Macs actually use slower memory than the common 800Mhz memory.


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## MacGuyver (Sep 12, 2007)

Suprem, I think you may be making the correct choice in migrating. Assuming you do not rely on a mission critical application that only runs on a Windows system. Macs running OS X have become a much simpler beast to tame on a daily basis. Much of the built in software just works out of the box. Dramatically less driver tweaking like in Windows. I have written the following not so much to convince you, but to spotlight some points of interest when migrating from your old environment.

As others have said previously, a current generation Intel Mac can boot into OS X, WinXP, Vista, Linux, etc. on the same computer. With "Parallels" software you can even launch most Windows applications directly from your OS X session (with the exception of heavy 3-D software such as games, but they claim the 3-D features are coming soon). You may need some assistance setting this up, but you can always stick with the reboot-into-Windows method via Apple's Boot Camp. (Boot Camp is currently an unsupported beta product, but it is expected to go officially live with OS X 10.5.) I have had mostly positive experiences with Boot Camp. It uses the hardware directly and enables me to run just about anything I can think of (including current 3-D games, etc.) The looks on people's faces when I turn around my screen is priceless: big Apple logo on the lid, full screen/native* Windows XP on the other side. 

Moving from the Windows world to the Mac is not with out its pitfalls, but gradually I believe Apple and the market are overcoming many of them (especially since the move to Intel processors).

One thing that you may find is a must-have is "FileCutter." It is a tiny contextual (right-click) menu plugin that restores the missing Cut-Copy-Paste-Move functions for files and folders that are built into Windows. While OS X does have Copy and Paste, Apple refuses to add "Cut" to the right-click menu which enables you to quickly MOVE objects from location to location on your hard drive with out the need to have multiple windows open (or play with the command line).

http://www.macupdate.com/info.php/id/21769 
(Donationware; NOTE: after installation, be sure to "force quit" and "relaunch" the Finder to activate it)

Another must-have is a 2-button mouse with the familiar scroll wheel. I am NOT a fan of Apple's mouse designs. You may be perfectly fine with one, but be aware that you can plug in any standard USB mouse and OS X will instantly allow you to use it. Devices with more than 2 buttons can be managed with their own software or a wonderful utility called USB Overdrive. It allows you to customize nearly every conceivable aspect of a mouse, even creating macros for individual buttons application by application. I have a button that simulates the space bar for media players so I don't have to reach over to the keyboard for Play/Pause functions.

http://www.macupdate.com/info.php/id/7115 
($20 Shareware; no features crippled)

Both systems have their pros and cons for me in terms of the UI, security, software availability, etc. (although Windows currently has the worst record for security. It has been argued that the main reason for this is because there is a much smaller Mac OS market share than Windows and that the software anarchists are simply going after the lowest common denominator with their attack efforts (biggest bang for the buck, if you will). As the Mac market share slowly but steadily grows, this may change, but it should be noted that UNIX (the underpinnings of Mac OS X) has historically been a much more secure foundation than most (if not all) other OS options. If you simply must have an anti-virus program, try ClamXAV. You can set it to "watch" certain folders like the Desktop where you most likely download to.

http://www.macupdate.com/info.php/id/15850/clamxav
(Free; based on open source Unix engine)

You can migrate your web browser bookmarks easily with Firefox. If you do not already use Firefox, install it on your Windows system and allow it to Import from your current browser. Then export the bookmarks to a handy file that you can email to yourself or transfer via USB stick (in Firefox open MENU: Bookmarks -> "Organize Bookmarks..." then open MENU: File -> "Export..." and designate the save location. Use "Import..." on the new computer).

I highly recommend using Firefox over Safari, but that is my personal preference. Firefox is much more regularly updated and has a very easy to use update mechanism. It is cross-platform (runs on Linux, Mac OS X, Windows, etc.) It also has lots of wonderful add-on features and custom security settings that are lacking in Safari. Keep Safari around for those odd sites that don't work quite right. I detest Safari's bookmark manager for starters. It also doesn't completely clean house when you use the "Reset" feature, even though it is supposed to do just that. *sigh*

And in case you hadn't noticed, I use Macupdate.com for much of my software seeking. VersionTracker.com is another that has good Mac support, but they are owned by CNET now and have lots of ads.

http://www.macupdate.com/
http://www.versiontracker.com/

This is getting long, so I will stop for now. Just some things off the top off my head.


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## absolutezero1287 (May 23, 2007)

Hmm...considering my conversion to Linux. If I ever did get a Mac it would be running Ubuntu.


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## monckywrench (Nov 29, 2007)

"If I ever did get a Mac it would be running Ubuntu."

In that case skip the Mac since you can buy or build much faster hardware for the price.


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## absolutezero1287 (May 23, 2007)

Good point, monckywrench


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## namenotfound (Apr 30, 2005)

Macs are just sexier.
My MacBook Pro has a nice chrome finish, it's slim and only weights like 5lbs.
Every Windows-based laptop I've owned were black plastic, weighted 8-10lbs, and were bulky.


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## namenotfound (Apr 30, 2005)

okMike said:


> A Mac Mini is a great starting point at a low price and the good thing with a mac is that you can run programs from any hard-drive attached to the machine.


What I don't like about Mac Mini's are that you can't get one with an independent graphics card. A Mac Mini might be ok for my mom, but for me an iMac would be the preferred way to go. I use _Final Cut Studio 2_ often, and a Mini just can't cut it.


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## ferrija1 (Apr 11, 2006)

namenotfound said:


> Every Windows-based laptop I've owned were black plastic, weighted 8-10lbs, and were bulky.


And had their connections inconveniently on the sides, had tons of "Media" buttons that require drivers, ect.


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## hewee (Oct 26, 2001)

Build a Mac Pro equivalent workstation for 1/3 the cost


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## namenotfound (Apr 30, 2005)

But you can't run Mac OS X then 

I think I prefer iMac over Mac Pro anyway, it has a built-in iSight camera 

I've done the "super powerful" machines in the past, now I'm just looking to have fun. An iSight camera lets you have fun


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## cyclefreak (Dec 19, 2002)

Serge_N_Gin said:


> Ultimately you need to determine exactly what you plan to do on the computer and do as much research as you can about any compatability issues ... we can advise you on a particular Mac that you have in mind but when it comes to a Platform it's got to be your call ...
> 
> We'll help you transfer over to a Mac but I won't tell you why you should do it ...
> 
> But I will add that if you are fed up with Windows I'm confident the future is looking bright for you ...


I don't know if this matters to you SUPREM, but I've found that after 20 + years of working with Windows I switched over to a Mac Powerbook G4 in 2004, and am still using it as is. All I can say about it is "It just works!". I don't have to search TechGuy or other sites looking for solutions to operating system problems... because I don't have any.


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## hewee (Oct 26, 2001)

namenotfound said:


> But you can't run Mac OS X then
> 
> I think I prefer iMac over Mac Pro anyway, it has a built-in iSight camera
> 
> I've done the "super powerful" machines in the past, now I'm just looking to have fun. An iSight camera lets you have fun


I know and that is why it is a "Mac Pro equivalent workstation" and not a Mac Pro Clone.
Still nice for what you get for the cost.

Why don't they put the built-in iSight camera on all the monitors?


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## jonrob6 (May 13, 2007)

i've ordered a Macbook. It was shipped 7th Jan estimated to arrive 18th Jan. Any ideas as to why it takes so long in transit? incidentally Apple start thie protection plan the day it leaves them!
I'm in England.


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## ferrija1 (Apr 11, 2006)

jonrob6 said:


> i've ordered a Macbook. It was shipped 7th Jan estimated to arrive 18th Jan. Any ideas as to why it takes so long in transit? incidentally Apple start thie protection plan the day it leaves them!
> I'm in England.


The protection plan starts when you activate it. It could take a while since you're in England, especially if you customize it.


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## jonrob6 (May 13, 2007)

I haven't activated just placed an order and paid up. Where are they built?


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## ferrija1 (Apr 11, 2006)

I don't know, it could be in California, though.


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## namenotfound (Apr 30, 2005)

hewee said:


> Why don't they put the built-in iSight camera on all the monitors?


I don't know, why don't you ask Apple


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## Couriant (Mar 26, 2002)

ferrija1 said:


> I don't know, it could be in California, though.


Sent from China.

I know I got a Mac from them.

Also I think the plan is from when you buy the plan.


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## ekim68 (Jul 8, 2003)

hewee said:


> Why don't they put the built-in iSight camera on all the monitors?


I think they are more and more...The last couple that I helped setup had them...


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## hewee (Oct 26, 2001)

namenotfound said:


> I don't know, why don't you ask Apple


I don't want to ask  lets get Mikey. 



ekim68 said:


> I think they are more and more...The last couple that I helped setup had them...


Thanks then I guess they have them but darn guess you got to says something up front because I could not find anything at there site on it. You think they would say more because they could sell the camera in the monitor.


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## jonrob6 (May 13, 2007)

I today received an invoice from Apple Ireland. There's a clue but it shouldnt'take that long from there.


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## ferrija1 (Apr 11, 2006)

Couriant said:


> Sent from China.
> 
> I know I got a Mac from them.
> 
> Also I think the plan is from when you buy the plan.


The parts are all made in China but are they assembled there?


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## Couriant (Mar 26, 2002)

ferrija1 said:


> The parts are all made in China but are they assembled there?


I would assume so. Mine was custom-build iMac. When I got the Fed-Ex door tag, I was wondering why I was getting a package from Shanghi lol

Heewee, I believe the camera are now standard, at least on the iMacs they are.


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## namenotfound (Apr 30, 2005)

iSight camera in all Macbooks, Macbook Pros, iMacs.

I think only the displays you buy separate don't have iSight.


But speaking of Apple hardware, I think it sucks that the iPod Touch doesn't have a camera, then the hardware is *almost* the same as the iPhone...

The iPhone is a little bigger, little thicker, and a little heavier... but not by much. I would have been ok with a slightly bigger and heavier iPod Touch, if it came with a camera, but it doesn't.


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## hewee (Oct 26, 2001)

Couriant said:


> I would assume so. Mine was custom-build iMac. When I got the Fed-Ex door tag, I was wondering why I was getting a package from Shanghi lol
> 
> Heewee, I believe the camera are now standard, at least on the iMacs they are.


I know but I am talking about the Mac Pro and what ever size monitor you get does not have a build-in camera.



namenotfound said:


> iSight camera in all Macbooks, Macbook Pros, iMacs.
> 
> I think only the displays you buy separate don't have iSight.
> 
> ...


So your saying it is build in on a Mac Pro monitor but only if you get the monitor when you get the Mac Pro?

I went and did a Config of the Mac Pro and picked the 23 and 30 monitor and no where do I see anything about a build in camera.

Wow the Mac Pro price just went up to $2,799.00 why did it go up $300.00?


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## Couriant (Mar 26, 2002)

I think there is some confusion.

Mac Pro is a desktop machine, and the MacBook Pro is the notebook.

The monitors that you can get from Apple do not have cameras. The iMacs (all in one monitor computer) do.

As to the prices, it could be that they have change the standard configuration of the machine.


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## hewee (Oct 26, 2001)

Opps I see you did say MacBook Pro. 
And I was right that the monitors don't have a build in camera. 

Yea not sure just what changed but I think the it had 2.4GHz Quad-Core Intel Xeon where now it starts out with a 2.8GHz Quad-Core Intel Xeon


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## Couriant (Mar 26, 2002)

on the apple site, it says 8-core @ 3.2Ghz from $2700 (2 quads)... perhaps that;s it?


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## hewee (Oct 26, 2001)

What ever I think it was the chip Ghz speed and or the 8-core that now says is standard. I think they did have one that was not 8-core and now all of them are.


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## ferrija1 (Apr 11, 2006)

The separate monitors are Cinema monitors, which do not have iSight cameras, probably because it would require an additional cable and professionals who buy those monitors don't need it. The Mac Pro's price went up $300 because just a day or two ago Apple updated them to "The Tower of Eight Core Power." The Pro now comes with a standard 8-core 2.8GHz Xeon, although you can shave $500 off by downgrading the processor to a 4-core, or you can spend an extra $1600 and get a 16-core system!


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## hewee (Oct 26, 2001)

Thanks, I was thinking it was the processor that changed and made the price go up. 
Yea Two 3.2GHz Quad-Core Intel Xeon (8-core) [Add $1600] and lets not forget 32GB (8 x 4GB) [Add $9100] and then 4 1TB 7200-rpm Serial ATA 3Gb/s drives at 1 at [Add $400] and 3 at [Add $550] Then why not get the NVIDIA Quadro FX 5600 1.5GB (Stereo 3D, two dual-link DVI) [Add $2850] with two Apple Cinema HD Display (30" flat panel) [Add $1799] each.
Then just add a couple other things and it is only $23,202.00. Good thing the Free Shipping with the 3-5 weeks wait.

If I only had the money to buy one like that. Better yet get a couple like that.


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## Couriant (Mar 26, 2002)

isn't that what i said?


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## hewee (Oct 26, 2001)

Guess you did say that too now that I look again.


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## Couriant (Mar 26, 2002)

it's ok. I thought you were mad at me before


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## namenotfound (Apr 30, 2005)

What I like most about the new Intel-based Macs are that you can triple-boot them to work with Windows and Linux as well. Bootcamp only supports dual-boot "normally", but on the Ubuntu website they have a walkthrough on how to triple-boot Mac.


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## hewee (Oct 26, 2001)

Couriant said:


> it's ok. I thought you were mad at me before


I was not mad at you or anyone here at TSG. If I was then it was before meaning a long time ago and I got no memory of it now or it never happen so that is why I can't remember it.


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