# Formula 1



## pyritechips

*A new year, a new thread.*

I will start this off with the big changes for 2013. The first is the driver line-up which, as of this time, is not yet complete. The biggest news is Perez moving to McLaren in order to replace Hamilton, who is moving to Mercedes. Let's consider this. Perez has showed signs of raw talent and speed yet is upproven and has made mistakes. I think that it is safe to assume that he will take a back seat to Button, who I believe will (initially at first) feel a surge of motivation, knowing that he will again be top dog. How they both do depends upon McLaren's competitiveness. They should do well, building upon their current car, as there are no major rule changes in anticipation of the new Turbo Era in 2014.

The mighty Schumacher retires (but is contemplation an off-track position with Mercedes), to be replaced by Hamilton. This is one of the most riskiest non-forced driver moves in a very long time. There are many scenarios possible but I will deal with only the three most likely:


First, the new Mercedes is a dog, in which case both drivers will struggle in the midfield as Schumey and Rosberg did this year. It will be a disaster for Hamilton. He would have to jump ship to a higher ranked team - assuming there is an available position in 2014 - to regain his status as a Championship contender.

The second scenario sees him in a competitive car but not being able to adapt to it, in which case it would be a great embarrassment to fall behind Nico; but I think this chance is a long shot as Lewis has been good at adapting to adverse conditions as far as the car is concerned.

Scenario number three sees Mercedes launching a gem of a car and Lewis outshines Rosberg to fight for the championship. This will rejuvenate his career but if Nico falls too far behind he may be bumper for a more competitive driver.

*Provisional Driver Line UP.*

*Red Bull*: M. Webber, S. Vettel

*McLaren* : J. Button, S. Perez

*Ferrari*: F. Alonso, F. Massa

*Mercedes*: N. Rosberg, L. Hamilton

*Lotus*: K. Raikkonen

*Force India*:

*Sauber*: N. Hulkenberg, E. Gutiérrez

*Toro Rosso*: D. Ricciardo, J. Vergne

*Williams*: P. Maldonado, V. Bottas

*Caterham*: C. Pic

*HRT*: P. de la Rosa

*Marussia*: T. Glock

*2012 Post-Mortum*:

I just found these, both concerning the repeating champion:

*Formula 1: Ferrari consider Sebastian Vettel protest*

And:


*Formula 1 title leaves sour taste in Sebastian Vettel's mouth*


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## buffoon

pyritechips said:


> I just found these, both concerning the repeating champion:
> 
> *Formula 1: Ferrari consider Sebastian Vettel protest*


Hence my comment in the last thread how Alonso is a bad loser. Griping via Twitter, he sniped that he needs no miracles, he makes his own miracles in accordance with proper laws.

Yeah, roight

Ferrari's Luca Colajanni stated in Italy's "Corriere dello Sport" that they (Ferrari) have no intention of lodging any claim. Which probably means they will. 

It's all over the Spanish sports paper "Marca" over here, with its readership demonstrating once again that the very worst losers appear to be Spaniards themselves. As shown (not to put undeserved life back into the topic here) in the overall conviction that Spain's Tour de France winner Alberto Contador was wrongly had for doping, even where he did test positive. Someone fed him a contaminated steak, donchaknow 

I personally don't care who wins the F1 championship where it's done on skill both in driving and engine and team management and where it makes for good watching. In those respects I'm more than satisfied with last season.

But if the little twerp succeeds in getting the title handed to him this way days after season closed, even where the footage does show Vettel as having been amiss, F1 will go with me the same way as the Tour de France has.

Not so much because of Alonso (one will always have the one or other jerk) but because of the general machinations of F1 (never ever was a retroactive drive thru penalty enacted later than the very same day).

Then we can get back to the disgraceful event of the gear box seal break in Austin and all the other smaller or bigger manipulations and the whole thing will have nothing whatsoever to do anymore with competitive sport.


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## bigh47

It shouldn't matter if it's after the race, if SV has done something wrong then a penalty should be levied.

Whilst not being an Alonso fan, it will be great to see if the FIA have the balls to take Vettel's 3rd championship away. 
If there wasn't already enough evidence of bad driving the YouTube videos(if genuine) certianly look like he overtook under yellow. Fine? At least 20 seconds, result Alonso champ by 3 points. 

Saying that the FIA has history of blindness when it comes to German Champions. If it had been a red and silver car I think we all know what would have happened.

Re 2014 engine changes, at least they have been changed to V6s now, with turbos/KERS, limited quite severely, though. 

I really would like to see a real attack on aerodynamics, the cars in the main look ****e. Especially after seeing again some of the old film of say Senna 's McLaren with it's beautiful simplicity, a work of art , not an art of work.

Plus a major rule change , If a PENALTY sends you to the back of the grid, starting from the pit lane should NOT allow you to change major parts/ratios/ wing s etc , beyond what is already allowed. SV would probably never got into the high points without those changes. Note Spain , LH sent to the back(no changes) in a pole winning car finished 8th 1 point as apposed to 3rd place that SV managed, in a car that was 20 KPH slower in qualli trim.


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## buffoon

bigh47 said:


> It shouldn't matter if it's after the race, *if SV has done something wrong* then a penalty should be levied.
> 
> Whilst not being an Alonso fan, it will be great to see if the FIA have the balls to take Vettel's 3rd championship away.
> If there wasn't already enough evidence of bad driving the YouTube videos(if genuine) certianly look like he overtook under yellow. Fine? At least 20 seconds, result Alonso champ by 3 points.


Well, it would appear that FIA thinks he hasn't. Where Vettel's onboard camera still (also) showed the yellow warning LED's as he passed Vergne on the straight leading to curve 4, the coverage also shows a Race Marshall waving a green flag on the left, lifting the yellows of the Senna S (serpentine).

Apart from which, as FIA chief commissioner Paul Gutjahr states, the teams have exactly (up to) 30 minutes from the time the provisory results are given at the race end, to lodge any claim. After which it's curtains unless new evidence is presented. Which it was not, seeing how Vettel's maneuver had already been examined while the race was still on.



> Saying that the FIA has history of blindness when it comes to German Champions. If it had been a red and silver car I think we all know what would have happened.


I'm not absolving the whole lot from any blindness, no matter towards which nationality. But to single out German champions might merit some further elaboration. I presume, seeing how they don't have all that many, that you're referring to Schumi ???

Who, I'll concede, was a royal prat.


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## valis

why not just rename the OLD thread? 

regardless, checking in here now.


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## pyritechips

Here is the latest on the Vettel controversy:

*Formula 1: FIA believes Sebastian Vettel has no case to answer*

My views:

I don't care if Alonso is a spoiled prima donna man-child. Most drivers are; it's in their nature. They are told from an early age that they can be the best - indeed, that they are the best. It is also an alpha male thing. They will do anything to be number one, include cheat. Need I present Schumey as a prime example? If you still don't believe it may I give Senna as another example?

I also don't care if Ferrari pushes for Vettel's disqlualification. It is a team's job to do whatever they can to get their prime driver to the top step of the podium. Ferrari did it by popping the seal on Massa's gear box. Other teams have done worse. If the machinations of formula one leaves a sour taste in one's mouth then I suggest one is watching the wrong sport. Wheeling and dealing and back stabbing is as intrinsic to the sport as trash talk is to football.

Should Vettel be disqualified?

Emotional answer: No. Taking away a well deserved championship over a seemingly trivial error, which would not have affected the outcome of the race, would be disruptive to the sport.

Logical answer: That depends upon the careful deliberation of the arbiters. The rules are the rules and to not apply the rules for seeminginly political reasons would diminish F1. Both Vettel and Alonso had numerous chances all season to win - or lose - the championship. In the end Vettel was 3 points richer. So be it.


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## valis

my take on it is that Ferrari lodged a protest (and totally legal to do so), and the replays showed that the track marshal AND the track signals both had green, and his steering wheel indicator showed yellow. The rules state that the order of relevance is marshal > track > in-car indicator, so I think Vettel will be in the clear. 

As well he should be. They won it, fair and square. Maybe Vettel should send Grosjean an xmas card this year.


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## buffoon

pyritechips said:


> ..............Logical answer: That depends upon the careful deliberation of the arbiters. The rules are the rules and to not apply the rules for seeminginly political reasons would diminish F1. Both Vettel and Alonso had numerous chances all season to win - or lose - the championship. In the end Vettel was 3 points richer. So be it.





valis said:


> my take on it is that Ferrari lodged a protest (and totally legal to do so), and the replays showed that the track marshal AND the track signals both had green, and his steering wheel indicator showed yellow. The rules state that the order of relevance is marshal > track > in-car indicator, so I think Vettel will be in the clear.
> 
> As well he should be. They won it, fair and square.


....sums it up for me as well. Fernando pouting and/or Ferrari souring is nothing new inasmuch as it could have been anyone else doing the very same. As has happened.


> Maybe Vettel should send Grosjean an xmas card this year.


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## 1956brother

valis said:


> my take on it is that Ferrari lodged a protest (and totally legal to do so), and the replays showed that the track marshal AND the track signals both had green, and his steering wheel indicator showed yellow. The rules state that the order of relevance is marshal > track > in-car indicator, so I think Vettel will be in the clear.
> 
> As well he should be. They won it, fair and square. Maybe Vettel should send Grosjean an xmas card this year.


no, he should send christmas cards to the ferrari designers and engineers


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## pyritechips

One of the F1 reporters added up all the points Vettel and alonso lost due to various instances and it was ~60-40 in favour of Alonso. Conclusion? It doesn't mean squat. You can't recalculate results with a bunch of "ifs".


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## valis

1956brother said:


> no, he should send christmas cards to the ferrari designers and engineers


point I was trying to make was that if RoGro hadn't taken Alonso out at turn 1 (was that Monza?), Vettel would be the first loser currently.


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## buffoon

Yeah, Alonso in MARCA is still griping on about it despite not saying where it was. But (after searching around) it was Spa.

I recall that in Monza Vettel got a drive thru for pushing Alonso onto the grass when the latter tried to pass. Something Alonso had done exactly the same to him a year prior, without getting penalized. But I guess Alonso got pushed further than Vettel had been previously, the car obviously didn't like it much after that.

Well, enough of this, at least for me. The scores are official and I don't want to wind up re-allocating the various wins of history at the drawing board.

We might wind up getting Texas back and we have enough trouble already as things are.


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## valis

Yeesh. You sure you'd want it?


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## buffoon

.............well, mebbe with a fence around it.


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## valis

personally, I think you have the right idea between putting an ocean between you and it....wise man, kemosabe.


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## buffoon

I actually enjoyed all my stays in Texas. But the last one was around 20 to 25 years ago, so I might see big changes by now.


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## pyritechips

Here is the calendar for next year:



> 01 Australia (Melbourne) 15 - 17 Mar
> 02 Malaysia (Kuala Lumpur) 22 - 24 Mar
> 03 China (Shanghai) 12 - 14 Apr
> 04 Bahrain (Sakhir) 19 - 21 Apr
> 05 Spain (Catalunya) 10 - 12 May
> 06 Monaco (Monte Carlo) 24 - 26 May
> 07 Canada (Montréal) 07 - 09 Jun
> 08 Great Britain (Silverstone) 28 - 30 Jun
> 09 Germany (TBA) 12 - 14 Jul
> 10 Hungary (Budapest) 26 - 28 Jul
> 11 Belgium (Spa-Francorchamps) 23 - 25 Aug
> 12 Italy (Monza) 06 - 08 Sep
> 13 Singapore (Singapore) 20 - 22 Sep
> 14 Korea (Yeongam) 04 - 06 Oct
> 15 Japan (Suzuka) 11 - 13 Oct
> 16 India (New Delhi) 25 - 27 Oct
> 17 Abu Dhabi (Yas Marina) 01 - 03 Nov
> 18 United States (Austin) 15 - 17 Nov
> 19 Brazil (São Paulo) 22 - 24 Nov


Just two notes. The summer break is a week earlier this year and I wish Canada and the US were back to back like they used to be. It was thought that France would get a race back but that idea has been axed for next year.


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## 1956brother

buffoon said:


> .............well, mebbe with a fence around it.


you do realize somewhere within that fence is: wino


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## 1956brother

valis said:


> point I was trying to make was that if RoGro hadn't taken Alonso out at turn 1 (was that Monza?), Vettel would be the first loser currently.


belgium grand prix...

did not alonso have a couple of dnf's races earlier on due to tire problems?

he did openly complain about ferraris.

vettel again was the better driver


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## pyritechips

1956brother said:


> belgium grand prix...
> 
> *did not alonso have a couple of dnf's races earlier on due to tire problems*?
> 
> he did openly complain about ferraris.
> 
> vettel again was the better driver


No.

His only 2 DNFs were at the hands of others: http://grandprixrankings.com/compare/2012-f1/alonso-versus-massa/



> vettel again was the better driver


You can believe that if you wish but I disagree.

Next year:

*HRT missing from FIA's 2013 entry list*


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## pyritechips

Question: now that Hamilton has departed McLaren Button, that commoner that worked hard to get to where he is, seems eager to take up the reins as the Team Leader. Now, if he and McLaren manage to win the championship next year would that make him a "Woking Class Hero"?


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## pyritechips

Good article here: http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/formula1/20490565

but:



> There are also question marks over McLaren's ability to mount a consistent challenge without Hamilton, unless Button can ensure he does not fall prey to the tyre-management problems that hampered him this year.
> 
> Realistically, then, that leaves* Vettel and Alonso* again. But if they can stage a fight as titanic as they did this year, it is something to look forward to.


Aren't we forgetting Kimi "Leave me alone! I know what I'm doing" Raikonnen? He was the most consistent of the rest of the drivers and did finish P3 in the championship. Who knows what he can do if the Lotus improves.


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## 1956brother

i was not thinking about alonso's dnf's. early in the season was he not running quite well then had to back off in order to save his rear tires and finish the race. i think it was two races he had to do this?

i am not some much worried about button as i am hamilton. the mclaren is still the better car.

kimi maybe the best driver out there next year but, will he have the best equipment(funding)?


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## 1956brother

pyritechips said:


> Question: now that Hamilton has departed McLaren Button, that commoner that worked hard to get to where he is, seems eager to take up the reins as the Team Leader. Now, if he and McLaren manage to win the championship next year would that make him a "Woking Class Hero"?


i did not realize hamilton was born into the aristocracy


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## pyritechips

1956brother said:


> i did not realize hamilton was born into the aristocracy


I think you missed my pun.


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## valis

Kubica continues on his comeback path.

http://en.espnf1.com/f1/motorsport/story/99203.html


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## buffoon

valis said:


> Kubica continues on his comeback path.
> 
> http://en.espnf1.com/f1/motorsport/story/99203.html


arm and shoulder still far from fit though (saw him on the news tonight).

Here's hoping :up:


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## valis

how did he look? I know he's been working his tail off after the crash; I remember thinking, at the time, that his career in F1 was done.


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## buffoon

one could see his arm still being gimpy but he did well in the DTM (http://dtm.mercedes-benz.com/en/#/s/news/511/robert-kubica-gets-to-grips-with-dtm-mercedes-amg-c-coup)

Basically a test and Mercedes won't confirm speculations that he'll actually race for them in DTM (German Touring Class) in 2013.

But he's a long way yet from being able to master (if ever) F1. And lack of will won't be the failing.


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## valis

No, the lack of will won't, that's for certain. I read a few articles, and I guess what he is having issues with is the grip level provided by the DTM cars; he's been tooling around in rallyers for a bit, and the downforce between a DTM and a rally is about that as between, well, an F1 and a DTM.

We'll see. Bottom line, helluva injury to recoup, and an extremely physically demanding sport.


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## 1956brother

let us hope he gets the ride:up: it will do much for his confidence which needs rebuilding as well


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## pyritechips

It would be good to understand the new Pirelli tyres before the season gets underway:



> The 2013 tyres will be colour-banded as follows:
> 
> Hard - Orange
> Medium - White
> Soft - Yellow
> Super Soft - Red
> Intermediate - Green
> Wet - Blue


Freom here: http://www.gpupdate.net/en/f1-news/289610/pirelli-presents-2013-tyre-compounds/


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## buffoon

Heard on the news that Germany's Nürburgring (broke as it may be) will be part of the circuit this year.

Race planned for July-07.


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## pyritechips

Not sure what's going on: http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/formula1/21263377


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## buffoon

Yes, there's been pulling and tugging and there's supposed to be a press conference today with the details (what name the race is given and under whose umbrella it'll run). And Bernie at his prevaricating best. No mention of him having so far refused all previous offers by the circuit, just blaming disunity of the others.


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## valis

THAT would be slick......love that track. Needs a huge overhaul, and Seb, I'm looking at you.


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## pyritechips

*German Grand Prix confirmed at Nürburgring*


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## valis

new ferrari.....yum. 

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/105354


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## pyritechips

This is an article that anybody serious about F1 should read and understand. It taught me a few things.

Pay as you go, go, go: F1's 'pay drivers' explained


> Argentine Juan Manuel Fangio, a five-time world champion in the 1950s, would probably never have made it to Europe without the backing of the government of Juan Peron.





> Meanwhile, one alarming statistic is regularly trotted out. F1's entire global TV rights income is about the same as that of the Turkish football Premier League - in the region of $490m.


F1 has never been "just" about the best teams with the best drivers.


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## pyritechips

A man after my own heart!



> Di Montezemolo also criticised F1 boss Bernie Ecclestone for staging events in countries where there was no appetite for the sport at the expense of races in Europe.
> 
> "I believe we should have two grands prix in Italy, rather than having tracks far away in the middle of nowhere, that are difficult to reach," he said.


:up::up::up:

From here: http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/formula-one/21305374


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## pyritechips

valis said:


> new ferrari.....yum.
> 
> http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/105354


If you have noticed, Force India, McLaren and Sauber have also launched. Note that they are all without the "stepped nose" design of last year. The regulations have allowed them to attach a form of cowling to give the nose a smoother look.


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## valis

yup, saw that. They had a pretty good article on it on BBC a month or so ago.


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## valis

good little writeup on Bruce McLaren.......

http://jalopnik.com/5981112/this-tribute-to-bruce-mclaren-may-move-you-to-tears


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## valis

just what everyone needs; livery for le phone. 

http://pocketliveries.tumblr.com/


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## pyritechips

I don't have le phone.


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## valis

ahhh, top gear....what would we do without you?

http://www.chron.com/cars/article/Critic-left-screaming-after-driving-world-s-4256409.php


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## buffoon

I see that LH is starting the season off well 

http://www.guardian.co.uk/sport/2013/feb/06/lewis-hamilton-crashes-mercedes-f1

Not too sure about the car either but if it's going to happen it (they) might as well do it now.


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## pyritechips

The first round of spring testing is to make sure the wheels go around when the gas pedal is pushed, that when the brake is pressed the car slows down, when the steering wheel is turned right the car goes right. There will be wing failures, hydraulic leaks, broken exhausts, collapsed suspension parts and cars that zig when they are supposed to zag. 

If by the final round of testing your car is still zigging instead of zagging then you can kiss off the season and start planning for the next year...


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## valis

from buffo's link:



> Hamilton's crash here on Wednesday morning, after *only 20 minutes behind the wheel *on his first test run, was followed by the cancellation of any further practice as the team worked feverishly to repair the car.


.

hah!


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## buffoon

pyritechips said:


> .............. and cars that zig when they are supposed to zag............


 looked like neither, in fact it seemed done in a pretty straight line


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## valis

not F1, but still a dang funny read.

http://www.newsbiscuit.com/2012/09/...-has-no-idea-what-co-driver-is-talking-about/


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## buffoon

valis said:


> not F1, but still a dang funny read.
> 
> http://www.newsbiscuit.com/2012/09/...-has-no-idea-what-co-driver-is-talking-about/


Hahahaha.

Somehow I've always suspected that.


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## valis

ditto.......but damn, it's refreshing to actually hear them say it.


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## pyritechips

buffoon said:


> looked like neither, in fact it seemed done in a pretty straight line


Actually it was in a braking zone:



> Lewis Hamilton crashed during his first official day of pre-season testing for Mercedes at Jerez, with the 2008 World Champion* losing rear brake pressure* at the wheel of the new F1 W04 on *the approach to the Dry Sack corner*.


http://www.gpupdate.net/en/f1-news/290297/hamilton-crashes-on-first-day-at-mercedes/


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## buffoon

pyritechips said:


> Actually it was in a braking zone:
> 
> http://www.gpupdate.net/en/f1-news/290297/hamilton-crashes-on-first-day-at-mercedes/


I know all that. You losing your sense of humor or sumpin'?


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## pyritechips

buffoon said:


> I know all that. *You losing your sense of humor* or sumpin'?


Yes. I am in a very unhumourous mood.


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## pyritechips

It looks as if Ferrari, McLaren, Red Bull and even Mercedes are performing quite well out of the box. To paraphrase myself, the wheels are going around for these teams when the pedal is pushed and they are steering right when the wheel is turned that way. It is just over a month now and I can't wait for the lights to go out.


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## pyritechips

It was remiss of me to not mention Lotus, especially when talking about the car turning right when steered right:



> So good was the Lotus on Wednesday that Romain Grosjean went faster even than Jenson Button's impressive Tuesday time.
> 
> "It's just a little better everywhere," the Frenchman, referring to the new black E21, said.
> 
> Also trackside, technical expert and broadcaster Gary Anderson was impressed with the Lotus.
> 
> "You can see that *the steering wheel and the front tyres are working together very well*," he is quoted by Speed Week.


From here: http://www.grandprix.com/ns/ns24798.html


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## valis

okay, the boys at Lotus have the best sense of humor in the paddock, EOD. 

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-UurbIy7aV..._aHHhiwU/s1600/BBuZ5grCUAAubxz.jpg-large.jpeg


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## buffoon

which buttons does one have to press simultaneously to make it zig and which to make it zag ?


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## valis

no clue; I just saw the Jenson button and that did it for me.


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## 1956brother

has anyone else read the bbc report: teams showing signs of money problems.


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## valis

yup; it was posted late last week, I believe.


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## 1956brother

it will be interesting to to see if cvc cares about the sport or just making money? if there aren't any teams left they won't make any money. i hope they understand this.

my guess is the engine manufatures are use to F1 by now.

i hope F1 does not end up being someones tax right off.


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## pyritechips

Time to refresh this thread, as the first race is only a week away.

It looks like it will be the usual suspects at the front of the grid, with all the big teams showing well (except Red Bull), especially Mercedes and Ferrari; Both teams have shown significant improvement over their initial 2012 pace. Button has said that he doesn't know how the McLaren will fare.


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## 1956brother

we will know who is telling the truth after qualifying. 

I am glad nbc sports has kept with showing the races live.

let the season begin


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## pyritechips

I dislike that this year's Pirellis are designed to fail. They want more pit stops per race. Imagine having the best car and driver and leading a race and suddenly falling down the field because the tyres suddenly gave up the ghost? No single element of a formula 1 car should determine its competitiveness and that includes the rubber.


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## valis

well, the tires have been designed to wash out after xxx amount of time for a couple years now, correct? I recall something about the 'cliff' in performance..

also, as an aside, NBC down here will be carrying the show live......kudos....:up:


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## 1956brother

I would like to see more tire manufactures involved in the sport. but, no exclusive deals with just one or two teams. tire manufactures should be required to sell tires to any team that wants them.


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## pyritechips

Tim, we are getting all the races live here - thankfully.

As for tyres, one must consider how much money it costs to design develop and produce F1 tyres. It would be foolhardy to have too many manufacturers on the field. Having said that, I did enjoy the rivalry of past years.


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## pyritechips

According to free practice it looks like Vettel/Red Bull are ahead of the pack again (boring! Reminiscent of Schumacher/Ferrari a decade ago.)


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## valis

not too sure about the issue of money driving that, I think it's more conformity. All a fall-out from Indy still.


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## valis

oh, dear lord......least she had the sense to decline......

http://espn.go.com/racing/f1/story/...ck-appreciates-interest-not-going-formula-one


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## pyritechips

Yes I read that earlier in the week. Bernie just wants her for eye candy.


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## valis

eye candy buried 8 levels below gp2? 

well, he has the bucks; lord knows he's also proven he doesn't have a clue in the world about common sense.......


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## pyritechips

The way I read it is she's smart enough to know that F1 is way out of her league and to prostitute herself for Bernie the pimp and fail as an F1 driver would only be an embarrassment. Also, isn't she 31 now? I think it is extremely rare that any driver enters F1 at such an advanced*** age.

*** Advanced as in F1 terms, not in layman's terms.


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## valis

quali rained out.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/formula1/21811335


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## valis

could be interesting in a wet race.

http://motorsportstalk.nbcsports.co...er-telemetry-failure-at-race-control/related/


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## pyritechips

Al it says is that quali will continue "Sunday morning". That is somewhat vague.


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## pyritechips

Oops! here we go, from the official F1 website:



> The first part of qualifying - Q1 - had taken place after a delayed start, but with the rain still falling and daylight fading, race stewards decided to move Q2 and Q3 until *1100 hours local time* on Sunday morning...


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## valis

yup, they're broadcasting quali live, followed immediately by race live.

kudos to NBC on their first test. :up:


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## 1956brother

i just finished watching the sebring 12 hours and watching the class winners with all the michelin hats. maybe, the tire manufactures are picking their sports.

I don't see another Schumacher era. i think the overall field of teams and drivers are better now.

danica is just a pretty face. she has not shown any ability in any series she has driven.

let us hope grosjean has matured. danica could be an improvement.

if f1 is going to keep me up to watch a race at 2:00am. i wish they would just, show the parade lap and start the race.


----------



## pyritechips

I missed the beginning of the race but Kimi did appear to be strong, as did Alonso. Until the teams get their cars sorted out and iron out the bugs I think it could be another start like last year, with multiple winners. One thing that is different is the poor showing by McLaren. Whitmarsh has stated that they have gone radical with their design as apposed to the other teams "evolving" their cars. Methinks it could relegate them to a midfield team this year.


----------



## 1956brother

kimi won the race but they rarely showed him during race. just occasionally at the end? he only made two tire stops which was a big help.

adrian sutil impressed me the most. he drove very well for much of the race.

masa looked like a new man. he must have got the message.

evolving cars is good way to help the teams control expenses. even the bigger teams can catch a break from not having to design and build new cars every year.


----------



## buffoon

Yeah, for a first race too early to tell, but Kimi sure did the best wheel management. Apart from which, strong performance anyway and I agree that somebody must have slept on the coverage. Fantastic Adrian and Fernando as expected:up:

Darn Red Bull histrionics, I knew they didn't have a problem.

Next time it'll be hotter


----------



## pyritechips

Kimi may slide down the order if Lotus does not secure more financial backing.

McLaren are admitting that they are in trouble.


> At the end of the Australian Grand Prix, Jenson Button was quick to admit no one is enjoying life at McLaren right now: "In these difficult days, it is important that we make the best of it. Everyone is quite down, because the team are used to winning. I have been winning Grand Prix for four years with McLaren."


They are 2 seconds down on the front runners, as Ferrari were last year. It will take a ton of work to catch up. Meanwhile it looks as if Ferrari, Red Bull and Mercedes may be the "Big Three" this year.


----------



## buffoon

Looks like Vettel is taking the absolutely wrong cue from Schumi in his more distasteful heydays.

I've always looked with disdain at the so called "stable orders" that compels the driver with the bigger points to be untouched by his teammate (Schumi comes to mind again), but this early in the season there was no need for it and Vettel could well have seriously damaged both Bulls with that last maneuver.

I meanwhile had the impression that he was growing up, but looks like a long way to go yet.

Here's hoping that, after all the doors were shut, the team (and not just Webber who was livid) beat the living daylights out of him.


----------



## pyritechips

Well!

Webber is upset, Vettel is humbly apologizing to him, Hamilton is embarrased and Rosberg does the team thing and takes it all in stride. 

What a race of chaos and confusion. Ferrari admitting the mistake of not calling in Alonso for a new nose; the Force India cars both dead in the water in pit lane. Hamilton visiting his old team mates in the pits. 

A comedy of errors but also entertaining.


----------



## 1956brother

pathetic...you don't win a championship during one race.

when the team orders are to slow down to conserve fuel and tires and you decide to race your own team mate who is obeying orders?

if I were adrian newey; I would serve a platter of raw vettel to the whole team. what vettel did was inexcusable to the team.


----------



## pyritechips

I agree for the most part but many of the teams are complaining that the stupid Pirellis are falling apart and they have to drive slow in the last stint, hence the team orders to preserve the tyres and get the cars to finish. I prefer when Michelin and Bridgestone would duke it out and make a tyre that would last half the race. Webber complained that the drivers could only race at 80% in order to nurse the rubber. What rot! Formula One used to be about going as fast as Hell and beat everybody else, including your team mate. Team orders should be outlawed.


----------



## buffoon

Yeah, the flip side showed in Rosberg obeying orders and no driving any faster than the considerably slower Hamilton. As far as team points are concernded, that one sure back fired.

I've been as equally leery of these so called strategies (Massa-Schumacher) in the past.

OTH this has long since become something not about the best driver but about the best team and that consists primarily of those not on the tarmac. 

This time it went well but Vettel could well have creased everything.


----------



## pyritechips

I really feel that F1 rules have to change. The races are starting to look staged to a degree. Maybe do away with constructor's championship and let all drivers race to their fullest ability, with cars that have sufficient tyres and fuel to go all out until the chequred flag.

I do not fault either Vettel or Rosberg to want to pass. But team orders are in place and a driver is a team member and must follow their rules. This is the issue; it is a paradox to both fast and slow, to pass yet hold back.


----------



## buffoon

Agree fully. By that I mean either race or call it something else.

As it was we had three on the steps that all looked like needing a Kleenex any minute.

Vettel cuz he'd been a naughty boy, Webber near to tears with rage and Hamilton clearly embarassed by having made third only due to Nico's enforced restraint. 

I can understand tyre concern (another pit stop could have upset the whole balance completely for both teams) and I can understand caution in not creasing anything else this early (or later for that matter). 

But, brat that I hold him to be, maybe one needs to expect a three times world champion to remember just that and, in character, do just what he (Vettel) did.

I don't like him much, personally, but I think maybe I have to revise that initial statement of him failing to grow up.


----------



## pyritechips

Red Bull is clearly angry and I would love to be a fly on the wall at their upcoming "internal discussion". The real crux of the biscuit here on team orders is that, love them or hate them, they are for everybody. Once you betray the team rules you have betrayed trust. That is what Mark is upset about. You can bet that the next time he and Vettel are battling on the track Mark will give no quarter.

If you have been reading these F1 threads over the years you know I really like Rosberg. He is quiet, humble and not a complainer and likes to get down to business. It was sometimes painful (especially last year) to watch him qualifying for P7 or P10 then struggle through the race just to gain a couple of points. Now that he has a car that can easily challenge for the podium - and wins - it is very disappointing to see him held back when he could have easily passed Lewis. By the way, if you hadn't caught the bit of news about the Mercedes team orders new bosses Lauda and Wolff are not happy with the move:



> It was a saga not unnoticed by Mercedes' newly-arrived Austrian shareholders and bosses Niki Lauda and Toto Wolff, who were not amused.
> 
> "From a sporting perspective, that was wrong," Lauda told German television RTL.
> 
> "They should have let him (Rosberg) go.
> 
> "We need to talk to Ross, if this is the strategy to be used from now on," he added.
> 
> Wolff agreed: "From a sporting point of view, that's not what we want to see."
> 
> Brawn, whose role as team boss is believed threatened by the Austrian duo and also the likely arrival of McLaren's Paddy Lowe, is understood to have defended the 'team order' on the basis that Rosberg was also low on fuel.


I like Rosberg's statement that:



> The 27-year-old's rationale is that, with tyres in good shape and fuel in the tank, he might have been able to chase down the leading Red Bulls.
> 
> According to Auto Motor und Sport, 1996 world champion Damon Hill agreed: "He might at least have been able to hurry the Red Bulls into a tyre problem."


I was also pleased to see that Nico had no problem matching and even exceeding Lewis's pace. Lewis was very diplomatical to admit as such on the podium. It will be fun watching them race each other this year.


----------



## valis

looks like Weber wasn't pleased with Seb's pass......

http://jalopnik.com/heres-f1-driver-mark-webber-giving-teammate-sebastian-458684985


----------



## buffoon

Rumors that Webber leave Red Bull at end of season, respectively no contract renewal

http://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/no-new-contract-for-webber-in-2014/

mind you, the German newspaper cited is what is generally described as a rag.

Nevertheless they often get things right and at 36, Mark may look towards retirement (irrespective of the recent brawl and the future prospect of permanent number 2).


----------



## pyritechips

http://www.gpupdate.net/en/f1-news/292471/red-bull-issue-is-settled-claims-marko/



> Red Bull advisor Helmut Marko has claimed that the Malaysian Grand Prix controversy surrounding his drivers is now a closed matter, with Sebastian Vettel and Mark Webber said to have shaken hands at the end of an extensive post-race debrief.


They have shaken but I am betting my Pesos On Mark not driving for Red Bullnext year. One more incident would send him over the edge and quit on the spot. Whether true or no, he feels marginalized at Red Bull.

Unless an opening comes up at a competitive team I don't see him driving an inferior car just to continue racing. I think at 36 his chances to win a championship have gone over the horizon.

And there is this:

http://www.grandprix.com/ns/ns25097.html



> The Australian's entourage and Red Bull have already denied rumours Webber will step down before his current contract finishes, but his future beyond 2013 is much more clouded.


----------



## 1956brother

webber can get a ride with many teams, he scores points toward the constructors championship. I like the constructors championship as part of the tradition of F1: (best car manufacture in the world).

it will be interesting to season progress at red bull.

melmut marko...good to hear that name again.:up:


----------



## pyritechips

OK I find this pathetic! 

*F1 could amplify new V6 engine sound*



> Ecclestone nonetheless revealed that *artificially enhancing the V6 engine sound* is a possibility





> "As Bernie will attest," Walker told F1 business journalist Christian Sylt, "it (the V6) sounds like a lawnmower engine, and we will be fighting this tooth and nail."





> Walker added that in 2011, "(FIA president Jean) Todt told me in Australia that the next thing is *they are going to have a hybrid*.
> 
> "I said 'what about the noise' and he said they will put a squeak box on the back of the car. God almighty!"


That will be the end of F1 as we know it. How a break away series with 3.5 litre V-10's developing 20,000 RPM and 1,200 BHP?


----------



## 1956brother

maybe Bernie wants Briggs & Stratton to enter F!. at least the teams will get a dependable mower engine

I agree with 3.5 litre size limit but, let the manufactures determine cylinders under that limit. V8, V10, V12. it's up to them. I like diversity.

the immediate problem is ... many manufactures have spent a lot of money on these V6 twin turbo disasters.

I really believe F1 credibility is on the line:

the manufactures have spent a lot of money of the new engines but, some teams can't afford to make the change.

above all: what exactly are the rules for these new engines?


----------



## pyritechips

Has Vettel no sense of diplomacy or is he deliberately trying to stir up the fire? 

'*Webber did not deserve to win'  Vettel*



> "Had I understood the message and had I thought about it, thought about what the team wanted to do by leaving Mark in first place and me finishing second, I think I would have thought about it and I would probably have done the same thing. He didn't deserve it."





> Vettel went on to discuss what has been a troublesome working relationship with Webber over the years, claiming that the Australian has failed to help him in the past.
> 
> "I never had support from his side," Vettel added.


----------



## pyritechips

The line up after quali:


Lewis Hamilton
Kimi Räikkönen
Fernando Alonso
Nico Rosberg
Felipe Massa
Romain Grosjean
Daniel Ricciardo
Jenson Button
Sebastian Vettel
Nico Hülkenberg

Mercedes is definitely up there challenging. Vettel and Button (who's McLaren is still not up to snuff) chose to run the harder tyre so that they can run them in the first stint. The big surprise is Ricciardo in P7 with the Torro Rosso. Again I would say it's a toss up between Red Bull, Ferrari, Mercedes and Lotus. Of course tyre degradation will ultimately determine the winner; the soft tyres are expected to fall apart after just a few laps. Vettel and Button can scoot away on the mediums while the rest of the top ten will have to scramble early in the pits for new rubber.


----------



## valis

stirling, stirling, stirling......sigh......

http://autos.yahoo.com/blogs/motora...men-t-race-ignoring-experience-193303080.html


----------



## buffoon

valis said:


> stirling, stirling, stirling......sigh......
> 
> http://autos.yahoo.com/blogs/motora...men-t-race-ignoring-experience-193303080.html


was going to post agreement, not so much on mental or physical difference to males, but on the propensity for chattering away detracting concentration off of the track. 

But then one remembers the constant radio conversation of the males with base (Kimi excluded), and out the window goes that MCP approach. 

Probably better for team atmosphere as well: Sebastine Vettel to Marcine Webber "I think we need to talk" (don't we guys all dread that sentence?), Marcine "oooh, yes, goodiee, let's".

Afterwards they'll probably slice each others hydraulic pipes at dead of night, but at least it won't be throats


----------



## pyritechips

Back to the race...

Alonso and the prancing pony are back in business. Old Aussies and young Germans, beware.

*David Coulthard column: Fernando Alonso shows his class in China*


> Alonso is pure class and it was a copybook race from him.


*Formula 1: Red Bull concerns grow after Chinese Grand Prix*



> The race he [Alonso] drove was exactly what I expected. In fact, I predicted on Saturday that he would win because you know that instead of just looking after the tyres, he drives them to the maximum they can take, without over-driving the car. And that is very important.


----------



## pyritechips

It is somewhat satisfying to see Nico on pole for Bahrain but I doubt that he can hold off Alonso and Vettel, whose cars are easier on the tyres. I expect him to finish P5 but is a long shot for the podium. I predict a battle between Fernando and Seb for the checqured flag. Force India looks good for a points haul but McLaren! What has happened? Jensen was excited just to make Q3 and Perez is only P12. What has happened to the Woking team?


----------



## valis

looks like some bombs were defused at the Bahrain GP.........

http://mobile.reuters.com/article/idUSBRE93M0D720130423?irpc=932



> Security sweeps ahead of this year's contest "thwarted a number of terrorist plots that aimed to affect normal life ... harm the reputation of the nation and commit terrorist acts against policemen", Bahrain's chief of public security, Major-General Tariq Al-Hassan, said according to the BNA agency.
> 
> Security forces had found several weapon caches holding 1,000 petrol bombs, 19 mock bombs, bullets and homemade guns, he added.
> 
> Hassan said security forces had also handled several incidents of rioting, including "acts of chaos and destruction" inside an industrial secondary school by students who had also blocked nearby roads and attacked cars, pedestrians and policemen, according to BNA.


----------



## valis

oh, to fall so far, so fast........

http://jalopnik.com/nascar-driver-will-be-sponsored-by-adult-diapers-this-w-478431832


----------



## pyritechips

I am late posting this one. 

Is Red Bull/Vettel looking invincible again this year? Can Mercedes improve or are they also-rans again this year? Alonso seems the best challenge to Vettel this year but bad luck can really hurt his chances. There was lots of fights in Bahrain but those damn tyres! That's not racing; that's babysitting bad rubber.


----------



## 1956brother

Alonso had bad luck with the rear wing. he still scored in the points.:up:

everyone is on the same tires.

kimi is the only one that seams to really understand this...


----------



## pyritechips

1956brother said:


> Alonso had bad luck with the rear wing. he still scored in the points.:up:
> 
> everyone is on the same tires.
> 
> kimi is the only one that seams to really understand this...


Yes, I read that. Kimi said we are all on the same tyres therefore in the same situation. But he can say that, as the Lotus is very kind on tyres - more so than some teams, like Mercedes.

And yes again. Alonso scored points but look at Kimi. He is doing this year what Fernando did last year. Not win races but get a steady stream of big point finishes. If Vettle stumbles Kimi will be there to step into the top spot.

There are also rumours of Kubica testing in the Mercedes race simulator.


----------



## valis

http://jalopnik.com/michael-schumacher-will-lap-the-nurburgring-in-an-f1-ca-480922585

this......this could be interesting.....


----------



## pyritechips

Hah! You beat me to it! I was about to post that. Here is Heidfeld doing it a few years ago:


----------



## valis

I remember Heidfield doing it; I either have that file somewhere or got the link....I know he's racing some endurance series, but I would have sworn he was just in the ALMS (or whatever the heck that series morphed into) at Long Beach this past weekend....


----------



## pyritechips

Look at this corner. It gives me shivers. It looked familiar to me then I realized that it reminds me of the Loews hairpin at Monaco - just deadlier!


----------



## 1956brother

the length of the track is impressive and most of It can be taken flat out:up:


----------



## valis

this one should be fun to watch........

http://jalopnik.com/your-favorite-memories-of-formula-one-legend-ayrton-sen-486242869


----------



## valis

Allison leaves Lotus F1 team

so much for Kimi's chances.....


----------



## valis

valis said:


> stirling, stirling, stirling......sigh......
> 
> http://autos.yahoo.com/blogs/motora...men-t-race-ignoring-experience-193303080.html


good on ya, Stirling....:up:


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/332539374325596161


----------



## 1956brother

great drive by Alonso dominant throughout.:up:

Kimi was as steady as ever.

red bull was there but, not there. not competitive with the front runners.

petronis.... two cars on the front row. the high light of the day was ...Rosberg holding off di Rosta for sixth place. please, you did not learn anything from qualifying?


----------



## buffoon

I know it's the same card game (Pirelli game) for everybody, but when 90 pct of the drivers have to be told by their team management not to drive too fast, the concept of "racing" is led to the ridiculous.

Hamilton summed it all up on his on board radio when he answered his team that there was no way he could drive slower than he was already doing

As any next race will show, change a couple of parameters (like temperature) and Ferrari and Lotus will have the same problems with tyres that every other team had today, 'cept those same others will suffer them less.

That's not to belittle Fernando, Kimi or Felipe, all three having shown great performance:up:

..........but (and no sour grapes intended at all) the next few will show that Lotus and Ferrari can put today down to (apart from immensely proficient drivers) all positives having coincided in their favor, where with all others they didn't. It's not down to genius construction.

If this crap continues, Pirelli can pride itself into having taken the race out of racing.


1956brother said:


> ................petronis.... two cars on the front row. the high light of the day was ...Rosberg holding off di Rosta for sixth place. please, *you did not learn anything from qualifying*?


maybe what YOU need to learn from qualifying is that what a car does in a lap or two, tells nothing about what it will do in 66 laps.

Especially when virtually nobody can as yet work out the nature of the rubbers. And believe me, the first three today (and their teams) couldn't work it out either.


----------



## valis

just remember, el buffo, ferrari made a very loud point about not needing to conserve the rubber. they were adamant that the mechanical grip was there for everyone, and even Alonso got in the action on Thursday......tell you what, that win does bode well for Ferrari.


----------



## buffoon

valis said:


> just remember, el buffo, ferrari made a very loud point about not needing to conserve the rubber. they were adamant that the mechanical grip was there for everyone, and even Alonso got in the action on Thursday......tell you what, *that win does bode well for Ferrari*.


Oh, they *certainly* looked good.

I hope it's more than fluke so that we get something of a more exciting season.


----------



## valis

nice way for Alonso to land in 4th all-time, as well......


----------



## pyritechips

The double pass Alonso made on Lewis and Kimi was grand stuff! And let's not forget Massa. He climbed from P9 to P3. He deserves full credit too. For somebody that was almost written off last year he sure has returned to form.


----------



## valis

racing sims, anyone?

http://www.costco.co.uk/view/product/uk_catalog/cos_1,cos_1.2,cos_1.2.4/140490


----------



## pyritechips

'*German prosecutors charge Ecclestone'*


----------



## valis

here's some more details on it.....I think he's toast, personally.

http://jalopnik.com/why-f1-supremo-bernie-ecclestone-could-go-to-jail-an-e-506638945


----------



## valis

just a reminder, Aussie V8's at COTA this weekend; if you've not seen them, this is a great chance to see what stockers COULD have been.

http://www.statesman.com/news/sports/austin-circuit-prepares-for-aussie-v8s/nXr3X/


----------



## buffoon

valis said:


> here's some more details on it.....*I think he's toast, personally. *
> 
> http://jalopnik.com/why-f1-supremo-bernie-ecclestone-could-go-to-jail-an-e-506638945


maybe.

but, as far as the legal consequences are concerned, probably not.

There's issues (pertinent to a German court) like


sufficient success chance to merit accepting the case ?
his age (a potential procedural complication)
his non resident status
not unlikely that they'll charge him with a fine, he'll pay it and the case is dropped. That way they've made a point and he doesn't show a conviction.

Like in the US they have to justify spending the taxpayers' money and with Gribkowsky (from a German vantage the bigger fish) they've done that by nailing him.


----------



## valis

you know, i reckon if there is a person on the planet whom I'd turn to about finances and Germany, reckon it's you....

question is, once convicted, will he still be top F1 doggie?


----------



## 1956brother

does anyone believe that pirelli can actually come up with a descent tire by june 9 the canadian grand prix? vote here is: no. they have not had a good tire for the length of the contract.

pirelli does have an exclusive contract with F1. if the new tire fails F1 is stuck. no legal action can be taken. no supplier could come up with a suitable selection of tires. the contract ends at the end of this year 2013.


----------



## buffoon

valis said:


> ......................question is, once convicted, will he still be top F1 doggie?


that'll have to be one between F1 and Bernie (even if he gets around an official conviction technically, by paying a fine).

I'd wager ....No.


----------



## pyritechips

1956brother said:


> does anyone believe that pirelli can actually come up with a descent tire by june 9 the canadian grand prix? vote here is: no. they have not had a good tire for the length of the contract.
> 
> pirelli does have an exclusive contract with F1. *if the new tire fails F1 is stuck. no legal action can be taken*. no supplier could come up with a suitable selection of tires. the contract ends at the end of this year 2013.


I don't think you understand the full situation here. Pirelli was mandated by F1 to produce tyres that degrade so that there would be more pit stops. The idea is that more pit stops means more position changes which means more entertainment. F1 wanted to get away from 1 or 2 stops where little passing happened and the cars finished in the order in which they qualified. Two other technical features were introduced previously to increase passing chances: KERS and DRS.

Some teams and drivers are complaining about the tyres while others (Kimi, for one) are not. Most fans (including myself) don't like it and media pundits are divided.

As for Bernie, I say he will be forced to leave if formally charged and the case goes to court. Don't forget that though he runs the F1 show he doesn't own it - CVC does and if they are not happy with a blotch on his name they will reject him.

*Ecclestone not quitting despite looming German bribery charge*


----------



## valis

mclaren back to honda, and a great pic of senna.

http://jalopnik.com/mclaren-f1-team-goes-all-nostalgic-with-honda-power-for-507483367


----------



## 1956brother

Bernie is a saint......he won't step aside...to be replaced with what?

I thought cvc only owned the marketing rights?


----------



## pyritechips

Further clarification on the tyre issue:

*The FIA reject Pirelli's proposal to go back to last year's tyres*



> The FIA said going back to last year's tyres would not be allowed as it amounted to a change of specification.


This puts paid to the idea that Pirelli is the sole entity responsible for tyre specifications and the dissatisfaction with fans and some of the media.


----------



## pyritechips

1956brother said:


> Bernie is a saint......he won't step aside...to be replaced with what?
> 
> I thought cvc only owned the marketing rights?


And yes, CVC is Bernie's boss. It looks as if they are standing behind him.

*F1 owner CVC votes to keep Ecclestone in charge*


----------



## pyritechips

Pirelli is predicting only 2 pit stops for Monaco this weekend.

We shall see...


----------



## valis

no rain forecast, so yeah, I can see a two-stopper...start on soft, drive until they fall off, switch to hard.....


----------



## pyritechips

Actually since Monaco is a slow circuit they are going with soft and super soft.

The defenders of the tyre strategy by Pirellis state things are equal for all teams and that there is always some limiting factor to how fast a car can go*** but I can't ever remember a car spending nearly half a race cruising at 80% of possible speed.

*** Examples of regulations aimed at slowing down F1 cars:


reducing engines from 3.5 litre to 3 litre to 2.4 litre.
eliminating active suspension and ground effects aerodynamics.
eliminating slicks and introducing grooved tyres.
eliminating various aerodynamic fiddly bits about the monocoque.
other I can't remember offhand.


----------



## valis

i've said it before, and I'll say it again; let the drivers drive. The tracks are going to be self-clearing, especially with a 1000 hp beast bearing down on it....


----------



## valis

whoa..one lucky bird.....

http://jalopnik.com/watch-this-bird-matrix-backflip-away-from-a-speeding-ra-509511485


----------



## pyritechips

*Ecclestone tells Raikkonen to ditch Hunt tribute*



> Kimi Raikkonen has reportedly been told to remove the depiction of 1976 world champion James Hunt from the top of his Monaco-spec helmet.
> 
> An unabashed fan of the wild, drinking, smoking, womanising British driver, Finn Raikkonen went one step further a year ago in the Principality, wearing the late Hunt's iconic black helmet livery.





> Reportedly, Ecclestone objects either to the positioning of the tribute in full view of the overhead onboard camera, or believes it is an unauthorised advertisement of the forthcoming feature film about Hunt and Niki Lauda's 1976 title battle ('Rush').


Ugly little gnome! Always the jerk!


----------



## valis

and yet vettel can race with a nekkid chick on his helmet.....


----------



## pyritechips

But Vettel is F1's _wunderkind_. There is considerable more tolerance for his actions than that of other drivers. Plus, Hunt represents the "bad old days" of F1 when drivers were wild, uncontrolled mavericks. Such a politically incorrect image is _verboten_ in today's world of corporate sponsorship.


----------



## pyritechips

Rosberg continues to prove his worth, out thinking and out driving the others to a Monaco pole. I like Damon's comments:

*Hill thinks Rosberg is 'bloody good'*



> "He's been doing a fantastic job and its time it was said. *He's quietly been going about his business and not making a big noise about things*," Hill told the Mirror.


----------



## pyritechips

pyritechips said:


> Rosberg continues to prove his worth, out thinking and out driving the others to a Monaco pole. I like Damon's comments:
> 
> *Hill thinks Rosberg is 'bloody good'*


Bloody good enough to win Monaco! Well done, Nico. :up:


----------



## pyritechips

Oh! And this is so Kimi! 

*Monaco GP: Sergio Perez should be punched says Kimi Raikkonen*


----------



## 1956brother

with all the delays, I was impressed that nico rosberg was able t pull away from the field each time. another solid drive by sutil.


----------



## buffoon

pyritechips said:


> Oh! And this is so Kimi!
> 
> *Monaco GP: Sergio Perez should be punched says Kimi Raikkonen*


Hehe.

I feel sorry that he couldn't send Perez off without suffering some point loss due to the damage to his own car.

Totally incomprehensible the previous decision, where Perez did the same to Alonso and it was Alonso that was penalized.

With the likes of Grosjean and Perez about it would be nice to have a red card system like in soccer. Especially when, like yesterday, the little jerk (Perez) shows no insight afterwards.


----------



## pyritechips

It's pretty sad that some of the back markers were lapping up to 2 seconds a lap faster than Nico. He and the Red Bulls had to nurse their tyres while the cars out of the points had nothing to lose.

Grosjean and Perez have proven themselves to be menaces again. I like the idea of a demerit system that has been going around. Too many points and you get a race ban.


----------



## blues_harp28

For me the F1 race is slowly losing its appeal - it's all about preserving tyres.

Mercedes and Pirelli face F1 penalties for unauthorised tyre testing.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/sport/2013/may/26/mercedes-pirelli-tyre-testing-row


----------



## valis

wasn't that impressed with this monaco.......too much tire conservation.

but still, it IS monaco.


----------



## valis

hah! Webber on Monaco:


> "just driving around, saving the tires and waiting for the checkered flag".


----------



## pyritechips

Pretty much, Tim. To me that's not racing. Rosberg and the Red Bulls were dogging it, despite Vettel calling the silver arrows "buses". The technology of F1 has long ago outstripped the usefulness of Monaco. It only remains on the calendar for its star appeal. Hell, nobody has to lift for _Eau Rouge_ any more.


----------



## valis

yup. Never thought I'd say it, but that may have been the last race I watch. Reminded me of sandbagging for quali in stocker days.


----------



## valis

huh......not only does F1 have a mag, it's archived and legal to browse.....

http://www.fia.com/multimedia/publications


----------



## pyritechips

A related article.

*Vettel took fastest lap after Monaco boredom*



> "Just satisfaction instead of going slow for 77 laps," replied the German.





> "But it's a reflection of how the racing is today, when you can be three seconds a lap faster," he is quoted by Brazil's Totalrace.
> 
> "I know that the drivers are not enjoying the races as much as they would like," he added.


----------



## valis

and that tears it.....when the drivers are bored, the sport is going to be changing soon.


----------



## pyritechips

Any of you who do not put aside a couple of hours this weekend to watch the Canadian GP at Montreal is *NOT* an F1 fan! 

The race is never boring, and like Monaco, has car-eating guard rails only milimeters from the racing line. How many drivers have paid the ultimate sacrifice at that final chicane? Toss in a green track not used the rest of the year, sprinkle it with dust and maybe rain and you have action as good as any all year.

Be there or be square.


----------



## valis

gotta check this out.....lucas di grassi wearing a camera OVER HIS EYE and driving one eyed at Spa.....just to get a view of what it's like from inside the helmet......


----------



## blues_harp28

Excellent video


----------



## valis

when he exits the pits and stands on it......man, the wind, the howl of the engine, and Eau Rouge in front of you.......


----------



## pyritechips

Vettel is on pole but the weather for tomorrow is only 20% chance of rain and 23C. Since they ran on wet tyres they will have options as to what they run tomorrow.


----------



## pyritechips

A very good race overall in Montreal but overshadowed by the death of a marshal:

*Marshal dies at Canadian Grand Prix*


----------



## valis

yeah, saw that video.....very odd, dropped his radio, bump bump, and that was that.........happened ludicrously fast.


----------



## valis

no too sure when this was from , but it definitely made me chuckle......


----------



## pyritechips

I have so busy at work I haven't had my computer on for a few days. But I have one day off today so I thought I would update this thread with a couple of interesting tidbits.

*~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
The ongoing tyre controversy
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~*:

*Teams block Pirelli's plans to change Formula 1 tyres*



> The Italian company wanted to change the construction of the rear tyres following a series of failures this year.
> 
> But the change was controversial and was blocked by some teams, who feared it would affect their competitiveness.





> However, this year's tyres are all approximately one grade softer than last year's - so this year's hard is effectively last year's medium in terms of rubber compound, and so on.


That last observation says it all for me. Most of this year's complaints about the Pirellis would not exist if they had kept the same grade of compounds as last year. But then we have the opposing argument that Paul Diresta managed 57 laps in Montreal on the medium compound tyres. The argument (heard from teams like Lotus) is that if certain cars and drivers can manage long competitive stints with the Pirellis then it's up to the other teams to understand the tyres and engineer their cars to best use them.

*Todt moving to replace Whiting with Ascanelli?*


> Auto Motor und Sport reports rumours that FIA president Jean Todt is moving to replace race director Charlie Whiting - who supposedly told Brawn the highly controversial Barcelona test would be in compliance - with Giorgio Ascanelli.
> 
> Italian Ascanelli is a highly experienced F1 engineer who most recently was Toro Rosso's technical director.
> 
> But a paddock voice said: "That (replacing Whiting) would be the most stupid thing Todt could do.
> 
> "Charlie has the most difficult job in the world, and he does it well."


My only comment here is that I hope Charlie doesn't get axed for political reasons. F1 should be about flat-out racing, not back room machinations.

*~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
The greatest driver move in recent years.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~*:

*Whitmarsh: McLaren failings not due to Hamilton exit*



> McLaren Team Principal Martin Whitmarsh has rubbished suggestions the Woking-based squads troubles this season are connected to the loss of 2008 F1 World Champion Lewis Hamilton.
> 
> Speaking to British tabloid newspaper, The Mirror, Whitmarsh said that any talk of a Hamilton hangover is wide of the mark and he added that he has complete faith in Jenson Button and Sergio Pérez, both of whom are doing a good job.


*Rosberg's pace has surprised Hamilton says Wolff*


> In the wake of Rosberg's pole hat-trick and Monaco win, Hamilton insisted he "expected him (Rosberg) to be even stronger than he has been" in 2013 due to his long experience with the Brackley based team.
> 
> But Wolff is quoted by Brazil's Totalrace as admitting Hamilton "probably was surprised by Nico's pace".
> 
> "A lot had been written about it not being clear what Nico's pace was (in 2010-2012) compared to Michael (Schumacher).
> 
> "Now, he (Rosberg) has proved that he is really fast, and it's surprised Lewis -- but I don't think it's a problem," added Wolff.


My admiration for Rosberg is no secret here. It is my opinion that he can hold his own against Hamilton despite being 20 points behind at this point, and that not any fault of his. Having said as much, imagine him in a Ferrari or a Red Bull. He would easily be fighting for the championship. He is good enough and young enough to deserve a ride in a better team. I would like to see him in Massa's place - or even in Webber's.

*~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
The fall of the House of McLaren.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~*:

*Canadian GP: Jenson Button says McLaren are 'clutching at straws'*



> McLaren are suffering one of the worst starts to a season in their history currently lie sixth in the constructors' championship, 164 behind leaders Red Bull.
> 
> In the drivers' standings, Button trails leader Sebastian Vettel by 107 points, while Sergio Perez is a further 13 adrift.


*Perez says miracles won't cure McLaren problems*


> Just as the young Mexican arrived at Woking to replace Lewis Hamilton, the great British team faltered with its 2013 car, and currently is ranked behind not only the four big teams but also the similarly Mercedes-powered Force India.
> 
> Asked about the chance of a good result at Silverstone late this month, Perez admitted: "There is nothing that can save us; not rain, not a miracle," he is quoted in a French-language report by the Agence France-Presse news agency.


*Vettel's Canada dominance down to circuit layout - Gary Anderson* (see "McLAREN IN A MESS")



> Perhaps the single most striking aspect of the Canadian Grand Prix was McLaren's performance. They are just not getting anywhere at all with that car, and it was the first time in 66 races that the team had failed to score a point.





> McLaren did not build a bad car deliberately. They built one because the research they carried out did not tell them the facts they needed.
> 
> In that situation, it is always very difficult to find the problem, because you have not recognised it in the first place - it has been *unknowingly built into the car*.


That last statement is very telling. There is no way to turn a bad car into a winner if the problem(s) are the design and engineering themselves. No amounts of tweaking or addition of fiddly bits - or an Alonso or Vettel - can make that car win. McLaren was the one team that decided to build a new car for this year while the others merely evolved theirs. I am completely flummoxed as to why they would not do the same. They didn't win any championship last year but they were a very close P3 in the constructor's, well ahead of Lotus. They are now a very weak P6.

This year is the end of an era for McLaren, but not for just them. Next year will be a "Year Zero" for formula one with the advent of the V-6 turbos, which will require completely new engineering and cars to fit around the geometry and physics of the new power plants. I am getting ahead of the current season but I would like to say that for next year some teams will get the new turbos just right and some will not. I predict a wide spread in performances between the contenders and the back markers in 2014 and it will take anywhere from mid-season to the following season until all the teams get it (relatively) right and an evening out of performances.


----------



## pyritechips

What does the future of formula one sound like?

http://www.renaultsport.com/Come-on-feel-the-noise?lang=fr

I like it. I am surprised that the V-6 has less of a "scream" to it. "purist" snobs that say they will stop watching because of the switch to the smaller turbos can quit for all I care. F1, through all it's technological and political complexities is all about the end result: how the best drivers in the best machines perform on the track. Engineers thrive on pushing the limits of all restricting regulations. Let's wait for March 2014 before anybody passes judgement.


----------



## valis

looks like Weber is heading to LMP1.....

http://jalopnik.com/mark-webber-to-leave-abusive-f1-relationship-for-porsch-595674729


----------



## blues_harp28

Decent guy - treated badly.


----------



## valis

ehhhh.......he's got a history of off-track incidents that very likely led to some lackluster finishes.....

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/fo...-season-fractured-shoulder-bike-accident.html

no doubt he's an excellent driver, and he has some Le Mans experience as well, with Mercedes.....albeit an interesting ride....


----------



## valis

wow.....heckuva read....


> In that era, say from roughly 1962-1980 or 1984, racers had to be men before they were champions, do you understand what I mean? Drivers ate with mechanics and technicians, it helped maintain a friendly, family-like atmosphere. Today, there is *too much money involved, and sponsors have destroyed the spirit of the championship.*


as slack would say, spot on, ol' bean.


----------



## pyritechips

Another Rosberg win and well deserved. It looks like the Silver Arrows may have solved their tyre mysters - but Pirelli sure haven't! Four dangerous failures that seriously affected the outcome of the race. Charlie Whiting had seriously considered red flagging the race. There are rumblings about boycotting the German GP next weekend (remember Michelin cars pulling out of the US GP?).

Overall a hell of a drive by:


Webber
Alonso
Hamilton


----------



## blues_harp28

Pirelli look to clarify comments after appearing to blame F1 teams for tyre blowouts

http://www.independent.co.uk/sport/...blame-f1-teams-for-tyre-blowouts-8685057.html

This should be interesting!


----------



## Couriant

Some really cool landscaping:


----------



## valis

awesome......


----------



## valis

pretty cool panoramic shot of Red Bull.....you can drag the mouse while the vid is running and get a full 360....


----------



## pyritechips

Too bad nobody mentions the actual races any more. The German GP came and went with Mr. Vettel winning yet again. There's a three week break before Hungary at the end of the month then the usual 1 month summer break before Spa. The only big news is that Sauber is sinking financially. Several suppliers have filed claims of non-payment against them. Hulkenberg has apparently terminated his contract with Sauber for the same reason but will continue to race for them. I hate to see long time independent teams going under.


----------



## valis

it's the changing of the guard, Jimbo....money drives the sport now, with talent coming in second......

As for the German GP, good race, but I'm pretty upset about the new pit lane reporter rules.......


----------



## buffoon

Vettel, first time ever that he won at home, said himself he was glad the race didn't have 61 laps i/o 60.

Kimi was hotly breathing down his neck so hard, Vettel has blisters there now.

Give Mercedes a couple of degrees more outside temperature and they're back on the tyre problems. Unless we get a cold spell here, Hungary won't make their day.

And, oh yeah, TV crews are in future banned from the pits during races


----------



## pyritechips

Why upset? There's too many bodies wandering around down there during a race with cars flying by and parts flying off of them. It's bad enough for the pit crews and they are attentive to the cars coming in and out. That report could have easily died.

Actually money has _always _driven the sport. It's why we have races way out in the global hinterland.

*Organiser sure Ecclestone to honour Monza contract*.

To quote:



> The F1 chief executive warned recently that even key European races might be dropped to make room on the calendar for more "emerging markets".


Warned recently? He's been axing traditional European markets for years.


----------



## valis

holy crap, Matchett is calling the Indycar race in Toronto.....talk about being WAY overqualified for a job......


----------



## valis

aaaand he just gave a wonderful lesson to the US reporter on fueling......there was an issue with Kanaan, only got half-fueled....our wonderful commentator pondered how they will know when to bring him back for fuel, as they didn't get the full load. Ol' Stevie said something to the lines of 'well, it was 6.3 seconds of fueling, and I believe these flow at x/gal/sec (can't remember the exact number), and the track is y miles long......so it will be either 6 or 7 laps. Probably 6.'


cue 10 seconds of silence, then Steve, again, 'Yes, most likely 6'.

laughed my patoot off.


----------



## valis

pyritechips said:


> The only big news is that Sauber is sinking financially. Several suppliers have filed claims of non-payment against them. Hulkenberg has apparently terminated his contract with Sauber for the same reason but will continue to race for them. I hate to see long time independent teams going under.


Some interesting news on that, Jim.....they found a backer, an Oleg Sirotkin who is worth a pretty penny as head of some Institute of Aviation Technologies.....not all that F1 sounding, but he's got a ton of cash he is willing to toss Sauber's way.......

the catch? His son gets to drive it.......and he's 17.

http://jalopnik.com/russian-investment-in-sauber-f1-team-may-lead-to-17-yea-789547162


----------



## buffoon

I see Bernie's now been charged

http://www.reuters.com/article/2013/07/17/us-motor-racing-ecclestone-germany-idUSBRE96G0HN20130717


----------



## valis

yup.......any guesses on what will happen? I'll wager a 7 figure fine and that's that....but I reckon you may know EU laws a wee bit better than this old fart.......


----------



## buffoon

valis said:


> yup.......any guesses on what will happen? I'll wager a 7 figure fine and that's that....but I reckon you may know EU laws a wee bit better than this old fart.......


http://forums.techguy.org/8691213-post130.html



but then, "the horse may speak" (credited there as a Tudor joke but actually Persian, this version is just much shorter).


----------



## valis

yup, love that parable......thought Aesop had a version of it, but probably not.......

I dunno.......hard to imagine the EU tossing anyone that old in jail......plus, dude's got enough money to restore Greece's economy, just fine the snot out of him.


----------



## buffoon

valis said:


> yup, love that parable......thought Aesop had a version of it, but probably not.......


oh, probably does. 2nd oldest profession in the world's got to be plagiarism.



> I dunno.......hard to imagine the EU tossing anyone that old in jail......plus, dude's got enough money to restore Greece's economy, just fine the snot out of him.


Well, it's actually Germany's call, not the EU's.

But they can think as economically as the rest of us. High gain at low cost definitely has something to say for itself.


----------



## pyritechips

valis said:


> Some interesting news on that, Jim.....they found a backer, an Oleg Sirotkin who is worth a pretty penny as head of some Institute of Aviation Technologies.....not all that F1 sounding, but he's got a ton of cash he is willing to toss Sauber's way.......
> 
> the catch? His son gets to drive it.......and he's 17.
> 
> http://jalopnik.com/russian-investment-in-sauber-f1-team-may-lead-to-17-yea-789547162


And there's this:

*Skepticism about Sauber's Russian deal*


----------



## valis

yup.....I've also read reports that while that kid DOES have the cash, he does NOT have the talent......mid pack in his current series, I believe, and consistently so.


----------



## pyritechips

Update on the Bernie story:

*CVC to monitor Ecclestone bribery case*


----------



## pyritechips

valis said:


> yup.....I've also read reports that while that kid DOES have the cash, he does NOT have the talent......mid pack in his current series, I believe, and consistently so.


Yes, methinks he will end up being another Yuji Ide. I understand the need for pay drivers (as discussed here recently) but this is a very negative downside to the practice.


----------



## valis

agreed....if the sport has reached the point to where they are hiring sub-standard drivers due to financial issues, then the sport is kaput.


----------



## pyritechips

valis said:


> agreed....if the sport has reached the point to where they are hiring sub-standard drivers due to financial issues, then the sport is kaput.


Well, not necessarily kaput but definitely injured. Back in 2001 my favourite driver Alesi was dropped by Jordan for a pay driver. I would not call the drivers substandard (but it was true in Ide's case) but usually the pay driver is of lesser quality than the driver he replaces. This is how it goes:


A lower standard team will take on a driver because he brings sponsorship money (Perez is a perfect example).
The rookie driver will either fail (Ide) or be recognized as overachieving in an inferior car (Alonso and Webber with Minardi).
The overachiever will be recognized and be offered a drive with a midfield team for a small salary.
As his recognition grows a contending team will offer a contract for a large salary.
Win or lose, this high-calibre driver will see out the evolution of his career, either retiring voluntarily or being replaced by the next generation of pay driver.
Once replaced in the twilight of his career his only options will be to accept a ride with a lesser team for a much reduced contract, refuse a lesser role or not be offered a ride with any team and leaves the sport.

Therefore there will always be some drivers of lesser quality than those not yet, or no longer, in the sport. The Alonsos and Vettels of the world are exciting to watch and sell the sport but I find greater pleasure in trying to spot the driver overachieving in a lesser car. One type of drivers I did not mention above are the Hamiltons of the world, recognized young in karting and nurtured through the ranks until promoted to a seat in F1.


----------



## valis

oh, I totally agree....Senna was stuck in a crapcan until the Monaco rain event where he and Bellof were running down Prost....and I seem to recall Schumi doing time with Jordan and racking exactly zero points.....

I think the farm system for F1 is solid; the GP3 has produced some excellent drivers....then you have wild cards like Kimi who could drive a stove and put it on pole.....but IMO, if the sport is compromising quality for cash, that is not a viable financial decision, nor is it a sound one. Competition should always be held as the pinnacle, not the cash.


----------



## pyritechips

I agree - to a point. There are substandard teams and drivers (remember the 90's when we had something like 15 teams which included Fondmetal, Onyx, Simtek and Pacific) as there always will be but the attraction is having enough competitive teams with enough star drivers to draw the crowds. Again I point to Alonso. Before he showed up F1 was non-existent in Spain. And, along as there is a Vettel in a Red Bull and an Alonso in a Ferrari passing backmarkers and fighting for the checqured flag there will be an F1. Trust me, _mon bon ami_, the passions for the sport reside more strongly in France, Italy, Germany and Great Britain than in your or my heart, and decidedly more than in most of North Americans.


----------



## valis

of course there will be an F1....there will always be baseball and hockey as well......christ, look at how football has flourished both sides of our border...

and don't tell me that just because I'm not euro I don't love the sport as much....I just see the failure of it looming. It happened to baseball in the late 90's/early 00's, and once Alex is gone the talent will be preeminent again, but that is the exact path I see F1 cruising on down....

replete with car speakers blasting engine revs for the crowd.......


----------



## pyritechips

valis said:


> of course there will be an F1....there will always be baseball and hockey as well......christ, look at how football has flourished both sides of our border...
> 
> *and don't tell me that just because I'm not euro I don't love the sport as much*....I just see the failure of it looming. It happened to baseball in the late 90's/early 00's, and once Alex is gone the talent will be preeminent again, but that is the exact path I see F1 cruising on down....
> 
> replete with car speakers blasting engine revs for the crowd.......


I come from Montreal, where there is a large Italian population. When you watch the Canadian GP it is them that you mostly see. One of my best friends in high school was Italian and Ferrari red ran through his veins. I would be a liar if I said I loved the sport more than he. I don't mean to belittle your passion but I remember the aforementioned Alesi winning the 1995 Montreal race and the raw outburst of emotion from the _Tifosi_. I think it is the same passion exuded by football fans (the European football, not the North American variety).

I remember the tifosi storming onto the track even as the other cars were still circuiting:


----------



## valis

woo hoo!

http://www.f1fanatic.co.uk/2013/07/23/f1-tipped-to-return-to-austria-in-2014/

love that track.......it is _faassst_.


----------



## valis

man, forgot what a car killer this track is......wonder who is going to get launched over the curbs in the chicane this year......


----------



## buffoon

With Hamilton on pole and Nico 4th, one can only hope that the Mercs. will overcome the "usual great in training but lousy race in heat" problem they've had with tyres on their rigs.

It's forecast to have 38 centigrade tomorrow over there, that's 4 degrees more than today.

More than here in Spain as well, freak Sahara heat going right past to the East and all the way to Central Europe.


----------



## valis

track temps were 50c, highest I've ever seen in F1.

funny story; on the US feed, the color commentator made a statement about how impressive it was that Weber was able to go directly into the top seat at Mercedes LMP.......few seconds go by, then Matchett and Hobbs both pretty much said that, well, _any_ F1 driver could do that, truth told. And they did it so politely, I'm sure it was missed by the masses.......


----------



## buffoon

valis said:


> track temps were 50c, highest I've ever seen in F1.
> 
> funny story; on the US feed, the color commentator made a statement about how impressive it was that Weber was able to go directly into the top seat at Mercedes LMP.......few seconds go by, then Matchett and Hobbs both pretty much said that, well, _any_ F1 driver could do that, truth told. And they did it so politely, I'm sure it was missed by the masses.......


----------



## valis

sometimes......I swear.

Later on, Buxton in his usual Buxton way (I'm still not convinced he's not pie-eyed out there) chimed in on the subject:

"If F1 were to shut down tomorrow, there would be 20 LMP drivers looking for rides."


----------



## valis

gawd....somehow Buxton got Bernie for two solid, uninterrupted minutes live..........someone at NBC Sports just had a coronary......kid did okay, but he did close with 'so, Bernie, who you wagering on today? If you were into that stuff?"


----------



## valis

i think if Grosjean manages to survive the first lap unscathed (always a good question with him), he's got a good chance of winning it.......


----------



## buffoon

Grosjean and Button touching under investigation. Maybe cuz Grosj. is a bit of a maverick, I saw no particular gross fault with either.


----------



## buffoon

Well, looks like Pirelli supplied tyres this time and like Merc. got things properly adjusted as well.

Lewis showed stones in that overtake and it won him the race while the others trundled behind for a couple of rounds in a traffic jam (Button). Darn good show of Lewis and glad that smoking car at the fence didn't initiate a safety car (for, or rather, against him).

Wish I had a way to get one of Kimi's T-shirts.:up:

Pity for Nico.

P.S. press has it here that Fernando and Red Bull are talking.


----------



## valis

wow....that would be a shock.....that it was locked up for Kimi. Truth told, I'd be fine with Alonso there and Kimi back in the ponies....


----------



## buffoon

It's just one (German) paper and it has a history of hype. OTH it is often also correct. But I won't put myself out vouching for veracity.

I don't think any top driver being paired with Vettel in the form he's currently in would be conducive to any stable (s. Webber).

What's more, I don't think Fernando deserves this (must've been eating something bad) and nor would Red Bull.


----------



## valis

total agreement...but I'd love to see Kimi in the ponies again....

rebroadcast is coming up, I missed the impact with Grosjean and Kimi.....curious to see if it warrants the drive through.....


----------



## valis

what always gets me is that RBR has _consistent_ KERS issues.....you'd think the one team that could handle a new tech would be them, but they've been snakebit from jump on that tech.......


----------



## valis

that was one heckuva pass by hamilton on weber......said it before, and I'll say it again, he's one of the best overtakers the business has ever seen.......


----------



## bigh47

KERS at RBR trouble is related to Adrian Neweys obsession with small packaging and his dislike of KERS, overheating is the problem. In some of his designs the drivers were barely able to move their feet, I think he would be happier if the drivers stood in the pits with slot car type controllers.


----------



## valis

guarantee he would be....get rid of that pesky wildcard......


----------



## valis

just when I was convinced CNN couldn't get any dumber, they had to foray into F1......read how they think a turbo works....

http://jalopnik.com/how-much-can-cnn-get-wrong-about-f1-engines-physics-in-1111423405


----------



## buffoon

valis said:


> just when I was convinced CNN couldn't get any dumber, they had to foray into F1......read how they think a turbo works....
> 
> http://jalopnik.com/how-much-can-cnn-get-wrong-about-f1-engines-physics-in-1111423405


Oh but I love a good laugh 

Vettel's successes will be down to circular flatulence next.


----------



## valis

wow......solid race......helluva start and race by Alonso.......tires held up well, rain stayed off, all told, great race......


----------



## buffoon

you mean Vettel ?



just kidding, Fernando was grand. Pity he didn't do as well in qualifying.


----------



## valis

nope, alonso.....

vettel is just vettel......but I'm definintely NOT writing on the ponies yet.....Massa, yes......the ponies, no.


----------



## valis

another good race........man, if alonso could quali worth a damn, he'd lap the field.

btw:

http://dailyme.com/story/2013090900001547


----------



## valis

kimi to ferrari

see ya, Felipe....really curious to see how two A drivers fare on the same team.......should be interesting. I'm going to laugh if Kimi consistently out quali's Alonso.......


----------



## valis

file this under the 'don't they have anything better to do' files.......

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/formula1/24198278

Man, they stuck with weber for most of the last few laps, listening into the radio comms, that was one sick, sick car......


----------



## valis

hoo boy.......could be a damp weekend.

oppositelock.jalopnik.com/korean-grand-prix-it-gon-rain-1440097871/


----------



## valis

rather interesting read here......wonder if they (RBR) are indeed onto something.

http://jalopnik.com/red-bull-may-have-invented-a-secret-new-hybrid-technolo-1442585020/@tcraggs22


----------



## valis

the more I read that article and the links, the more things are starting to make sense.....specifically, RBR long-term failure with KERS.......


----------



## buffoon

valis said:


> rather interesting read here......wonder if they (RBR) are indeed onto something.
> 
> http://jalopnik.com/red-bull-may-have-invented-a-secret-new-hybrid-technolo-1442585020/@tcraggs22





valis said:


> the more I read that article and the links, the more things are starting to make sense.....specifically, RBR long-term failure with KERS.......


Hmmmmm.............intriguing.

Vettel, when approached on the matter, told Motorsport-Magazin.com that they'd been working on it like heck day and night and were very pleased with how it was now working. He also had a hard time keeping a straight face, so that interviewers wouldn't discover the irony right from the start.

The above article goes on to state that even Alonso is kinda laughing. He said they've been standing in the curves and listening to the RB9 since winter and that it always DID sound different. He also suspects Mercedes, seeing how they don't sound like a Ferrari at all .

Ah, fun and games and dumb FIA inspectors, eh?

One thing's for sure though, they ARE using something and it's a lot different from the others. And with Korea one could get the impression that Hülkenberg's lot took a peep as well.


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## valis

it's pretty obvious......F1 is measured in thousandths of a second, and for Seb to clear _32_ seconds in just 15 laps, something is off there......

My view? Kudo's to RBR......hats off to them, and let's move forward with cool technology.


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## buffoon

Aye:up:


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## valis

wow......this came out of nowhere....

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/María_de_Villota



> On the morning of 11 October 2013, exactly one year after her first public appearance after her testing accident, Spanish media reported that de Villota, aged 33, had been found dead in her Seville hotel room; Eurosport reported that her family had confirmed her death.


that's the lady who had the accident in the Marussia last year.....head into the truck gate.......


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## pyritechips

valis said:


> it's pretty obvious......F1 is measured in thousandths of a second, and for Seb to clear _32_ seconds in just 15 laps, something is off there......
> 
> My view? Kudo's to RBR......hats off to them, and let's *move forward with cool technology*.


Indeed, but it begs the question: Do the new rules and technology add to the sport or diminish it? To quote Filipe Massa:



> "I think the cars will have a lot less downforce, with tyres that may be even harder," Massa told reporters at Suzuka. "The grip level will be very low and everything will be different; the way you drive, the way you race, the way you manage the car, the fuel and everything else."


Also in the article ( http://www.gpupdate.net/en/f1-news/301505/massa-concerned-by-new-regulations/ ):


> ...the sport could be heavily damaged if the field is forced to focus on saving fuel and tyres as opposed to extracting performance.


Racing has never been about economy; and I fear that since the big European car manufacturers have dominated the sport they are using F1 not so much to showcase their products and new technology but to feed the misconception that Formula One cars somehow reflect what consumers want on the road. This consumer identification with the race car and driver is what made NASCAR so popular: appealing to the masses. F1 has never been that. It has been about exotic cars that have so resemblance to a street car and was created for one sole purpose - to go as fast as possible, and to chew up as many tyres and litres of fuel as necessary in order to be the first to see the checquered flag. If the sport is prostituting itself to the masses by making them believe that, somehow, their car is the same as an F1 car then I say that the sport has abandoned its mandate. Fuel economy? Energy harvesting? "Cool technology" (if I understanding the meaning as used by the poster) belongs in the family car, not on the race track. In fact, many cool technologies have been banned from the sport in order to level the playing field. Let me reiterate. There is a simple equation to consider. Race pace is directly proportional to the amount that can be extracted from the car/environmental/driver system. If the sport and manufacturers wish to emulate road cars then I fear the sport will see a procession of vehicles resembling the pace car. If one wishes that then I suggest that one watch DTM.



> He [Alonso] said he merely wished the sport had tyres that allowed drivers to push to the limit. ( http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/formula1/24409735 )


That is what I am talking about. Racing has always been about pushing to the limit. Ecclestone mandating that Pirelli produce tyres that quickly degrade is a contrivance, a trick to artificially create excitement with extra pit stops. The same proposal was considered to introduce artificial rain. I suppose it all boils down to the (true) fan. What does he want? What does the sport mean to him? Formula One has always been about evolution. From one season to the next it changes somewhat, as engineering improves this part, adds that new one, always striving to extract the utmost possible from the car. But next year it will be a "revolution", as the new engine formula along with the other "eco-friendly" changes are introduced to appeal to the average citizen. Regulations were made to restrict potentially unfair techniques or systems; now they are being made to appeal to consumers - consumers that have forgotten (or never knew) that racing has nothing to do with everyday vehicle use.


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## valis

nice little show on 80's f1.....

http://jalopnik.com/this-bbc-documentary-is-a-fascinating-look-into-the-wor-1444612579


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## valis

ah, the glory days.....Senna' first championship.

http://jalopnik.com/relive-ayrton-sennas-first-formula-one-world-champions-1454728408


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## DaveBurnett

Ban wings and ground effects. Force 1 make tyres that will last the whole race at full racing speed(+ inters and full wets). All cars to weigh the same, with driver. Enough fuel to last the whole distance at full racing speed. No traction control of ANY sort. Manual gears. 1 engine per race of same capacity un-blown. High exhaust.
That just might bring the crowds back
Bernie couldn't are a toss about the racing. As long as he gets the money he's happy. Should be back on Free to view TV as well.


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## valis

spot on, except for the first few words......ground effect is freakin' awesome....but then, my dad's best friend was an aerodynamicist for a few high name companies......keep the pit stops, but add refueling again. traction control never should have happened in the first place, not in a race. Good to advance the tech, but c'mon. Drivers drive, racers race.


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## DaveBurnett

Trouble with GE is that it is like wings in that it allows falsely high speed cornering and is too open to interpretation. We want to see drivers racing not designers.


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## valis

that's what the loss of traction control will do. Imagine 800 horses under your right foot on a wet Suzuka.....that will separate the wheat from the chaff regardless of GE.


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## valis

no more kubica.......at least f1 side.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/formula1/24636633


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## valis

kovalainen to replace raikonnen......but only after schumi turned it down......

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/formula-one/24946180


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## valis

2014 schedule finalized. Also, I'm going to change the name of the thread to just F1, don't see any need to open a new thread every year.



> 2014 FIA Formula One World Championship
> 
> March 16 - Australian Grand Prix
> 
> March 30 - Malaysian Grand Prix
> 
> April 6 - Bahrain Grand Prix
> 
> April 20 - Chinese Grand Prix
> 
> May 11 - Spanish Grand Prix
> 
> May 25 - Monaco Grand Prix
> 
> June 8 - Canadian Grand Prix
> 
> June 22 - Austrian Grand Prix
> 
> July 6 - British Grand Prix
> 
> July 20 - German Grand Prix at Hockenheim
> 
> July 27 - Hungarian Grand Prix
> 
> August 24 - Belgian Grand Prix
> 
> September 7 - Italian Grand Prix
> 
> September 21 - Singapore Grand Prix
> 
> October 5 - Japanese Grand Prix
> 
> October 12 - Russian Grand Prix
> 
> November 2 - United States Grand Prix
> 
> November 9 - Brazilian Grand Prix
> 
> November 23 - Abu Dhabi Grand Prix


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## buffoon

Hulk (Hülkenberg) has signed back on with Force India.

http://www.formula1.com/news/headlines/2013/12/15327.html

leaves di Resta hanging for the moment.


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## valis

yeah, read that yesterday......IMO, they are making a mistake going after the money as opposed to the talent, but what do I know......


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## pyritechips

There are no surprises or mysteries over any of the "silly season" moves so far. As much as Nico would have wanted to (as much as they wanted him) drive for Lotus it is understandable to want a guaranteed pay cheque. Force India is a lesser team but Mallya has been able to pay his drivers. Maldonado to Lotus is purely a matter of bringing truckloads of sponsership cash with him. If I was Lotus boss and the team was making money and he came knocking on my door I would turn off the lights and pull down the shades. 

I would not be at all surprised to see one or maybe two teams fold in 2014; with lesser teams already choking on red ink the drastic rule changes, including the new turbo-6 formula, will have them on life support.


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## valis

good lord, NOW what?

http://jalopnik.com/formula-one-will-award-double-points-in-season-finale-s-1479677944


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## buffoon

Yeah, when I heard that one, rolled my eyes so hard I have a headache now.


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## DaveBurnett

They are making a play for the comedy of the year.


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## valis

found this remarkably cool.........


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## buffoon

Michael Schumacher badly injured in Skiing accident.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/mo...after-suffering-head-injury-while-skiing.html


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## valis

Just read that.....yeesh....

http://m.espn.go.com/rpm/story?storyId=10208748


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## valis

huh...andy granatelli passed yesterday......huge name in American autosports......


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## valis

still in a coma, and the docs say he is 'fighting for his life'.....the fact that he is critical and not grave is good, but this is going to be a long battle.

Gotta say it, the dude has had a few brushes with death in his lifetime......


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## buffoon

valis said:


> still in a coma, and the docs say he is 'fighting for his life'.....the fact that he is critical and not grave is good, but this is going to be a long battle.
> 
> Gotta say it, the dude has had a few brushes with death in his lifetime......


.....with brain injuries such as these there isn't really much any medic can say. Waiting game. They've gotten rid of the most critical pressure cause by emergency operation, now they need to see how to relieve still existing and recurring bleeding pressure by "thinner" medication.

The coma is medically induced as is the accompanying hypothermia (body's at 35 deg C), best healing conditions it appears.

Schumi is exceptionally fit and well trained, bodily. Lesser men would be dead by now so one hopes that this'll work in his favor. What residual damage (if he survives) one will only know later.

Fingers crossed.


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## valis

indeed. He's in fantastic shape, obviously, and ain't THAT old......least he was wearing a helmet.....


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## buffoon

Yeah, Docs said that without the helmet he'd have been DOD or, more probably, OTS (on the spot)


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## valis

good news, apparently......the Dwarf is stepping aside...

http://www.bbc.com/sport/0/formula1/25762411


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## valis

apparently he is still going to be running it, however....not entirely certain how that is going to work.


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## DaveBurnett

You can bet your life that there is an ulterior motive.
Perhaps hoping for a lower sentence if? found guilty?


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## valis

knowing full well that he is about as human as my car, I've not a clue what he could be thinking....


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## valis

not so much F1 as a Bobby Kubica update.....sorry Jimbo......

http://oppositelock.jalopnik.com/wrc-monte-carlo-update-before-the-final-day-1504055327/@ballaban


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## valis

this could be interesting.....saw her race in IRL, sort of on the fence about her transition to F1.....guess that's why they have the super license testing....

http://www.racer.com/index.php/component/flexicontent/51/101194?Itemid=502


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## pyritechips

Well, as predicted, there are plenty of growing pains during the testing phase of this season so far. Renault powered cars are having major problems trying to get the power plant and car to play nice with each other. Ferrari look strong and early odds are on the Mercedes powered teams to be at the front in Australia, especially the works team. I will put money on Vettel not getting a 5th straight championship - nor Red Bull.

I am on the fence on the following articles. I won't pine about the "good old days" but I do think something has been lost in F1. Am I wrong?

*Villeneuve thinks new era risks destroying F1*

And:

*Brundle miffed with Villeneuve*


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## buffoon

Seems that Red Bull's "butt" is slimmer than that of any other cars. Undoubtedly an aerodynamic advantage but that also means having had to install the whole electronics in probably unsuitably confined space.

Newey (Chief designer) and Horner left Jerez (prematurely?) for the factory in Milton Keynes (possible chassis rebuild?)

The season will tell but personally (no professional/technical take) a year where Vettel is thrown back to the point of having the championship open pretty much til the end will be refreshing.

Nothing more detrimental to the sport than years long dominance of one, with bets lay-able only to who comes 2nd or third.


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## pyritechips

buffoon said:


> Seems that Red Bull's "butt" is slimmer than that of any other cars. Undoubtedly an aerodynamic advantage but that also means having had to install the whole electronics in probably unsuitably confined space.
> 
> Newey (Chief designer) and Horner left Jerez (prematurely?) for the factory in Milton Keynes (possible chassis rebuild?)
> 
> The season will tell but personally (no professional/technical take) a year where Vettel is thrown back to the point of having the championship open pretty much til the end will be refreshing.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *Nothing more detrimental to the sport than years long dominance of one, with bets lay-able only to who comes 2nd or third*
> 
> 
> 
> .
Click to expand...

Remember the "good old days" When Schumacher/Barrichelo/Massa/Ferrari would soak up the top two spots and all the other teams/drivers would have to battle for the remaining four scoring positions? No one can foretell the future but I suspect that until all the teams get to grips with the new technical rules there may be many failures and surprise results.


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## valis

one very somber anniversary........

http://autoweekusa.kinja.com/ayrton...the-day-f1-stood-st-1570255392/+matthardigree


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## etaf

Any legal streaming services for F1 
BBC has not signed up to show monaco live !!!!!!! - no idea why not .... so Sky has exclusive rights to show live 

just wondered if perhaps a free legal streaming service existed maybe with a short delay , so not live 

otherwise , i will switch the TV off and radio until 17:25 today  
and again Sunday 17:05

and i i will have to unsubscribe here in about an hour, and then resubscribe after I have seen the highlights - as i have had emails from F1 thread and knew the result before the highlights


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## valis

if you have nbc over there, it's broadcast live at 7.30 EST......should


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## valis

be very interesting with a ton more torque.......


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## valis

wow.......a possibility of a typhoon hitting this weekends Japanese GP.....shades of Aussie 89......


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## DaveBurnett

OOOOOOEEEEEEE a bit of excitement at last..........!!


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## valis

man, what a race......and not a good weekend for F1.....Andrea de Cesaris passed, and Jules Bianchi slid into a tractor and is in critical........


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## DaveBurnett

That last bit should never have happened and wouldn't if the yellow flags had been shown more quickly. The race director and the stewards were slow there. With that recovery vehicle on track there should have been double yellow flags before that corner.


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## valis

from what I've read, the double yellows were displayed, the green was displayed prior to the SC deploying......



> The green flag is at the station AFTER the incident, which is per protocol - they had not yet deployed the safety car (single standing yellow + SC board all around the track) and were handling the Sutil car under a local yellow, following standard protocol. The station upstream is showing waved double-yellow (per FIA standard) as is correct.


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## valis

well, crap. Crap crap crap.

Jules Bianchi has a diffuse axonal brain injury, which is the worst kind of brain injury. Quick reading shows that less than 10% ever regain consciousness. 

In short, thoughts and prayers to Clan Bianchi.


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## valis

aaaaand Melbourne kicks off tomorrow night at midnight for me.......waaahoooooo!


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## valis

21 years ago today.......sigh.


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## valis

2018 kicks off....here is to Jim....:up:


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## Bastiat

Whose fault in the British F1? Hamilton or Verstappen?


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## valis

IMO? 100% on Hamilton. He missed the apex, likely due to Verstappen's aero washing out the front end grip of the Merc, and basically slid up into his right rear.

Helluva impact too.....apparently in excess of 50G.


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## Bastiat

That's what Ricciardo thinks occurred as well. The impact was estimated at 51Gs. That will get your attention. Reminds me of Mansell when he lost it at Michigan 500 practice and he was sliding toward the wall at 150 mph. A reporter asked him what he was thinking; he said "This is going to hurt."


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## valis

Bastiat said:


> That's what Ricciardo thinks occurred as well. The impact was estimated at 51Gs. That will get your attention. Reminds me of Mansell when he lost it at Michigan 500 practice and he was sliding toward the wall at 150 mph. A reporter asked him what he was thinking; he said "This is going to hurt."


Lol....Grosjean said that of last years crash....and hoo boy did it ever. Lucky human there.


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## valis

Fyi....


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## Bastiat

Grosjean.....that was a heck (ell) of an accident! On fire for 2 minutes and 40 seconds!!!!!! Split that carbon car in half. It's amazing he didn't fry his lungs from the heated air.


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## valis

Again....lucky man.

Also 100% his fault. You got mirrors for a reason.


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## valis

Got COTA this weekend....a mere 3 hours away from where I sit. We are getting rain here in Houston and its expected tomorrow. Hope Austin gets some.


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## valis

Fp2 fun time....


http://imgur.com/a/x2DlkTX


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## Keebellah

Can't blame Max, but the MB is faster, the difference in Turkey was that in the long stretch the MB was 23 Km/h faster


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## valis

Keebellah said:


> Can't blame Max, but the MB is faster, the difference in Turkey was that in the long stretch the MB was 23 Km/h faster


Cant blame either of them IMO....its a free road both have equal rights....


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## Keebellah

That I agree, but what I mean is the frustration, the car's technique is far better developed with MB as is with Honda


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## valis

Max on pole. Nice.


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## Keebellah

And tonight (for us 21:00) the race


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## valis

Max is faster. Look for him to win this bar a pit mess up.


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## valis

May have ptted Max too early. Shaping up to be a heckuva finish.


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## valis

Tell you what....the drivers earn their keep at this track.


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## valis

What a great race. Great season too.


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## Keebellah

This was really great, they both (all of them really) drove like the best.


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## valis

Enjoy Keebalah.


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## Keebellah

Nice  That's when the drivers did the real work and a car sounded as a racing car.
Reminds me of the first F1 races I saw ('66 Barcelona Montjuich Circuit with Jim Clark, Graham Hill, Jackie Stewart etc.)


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## valis

Keebellah said:


> Nice  That's when the drivers did the real work and a car sounded as a racing car.
> Reminds me of the first F1 races I saw ('66 Barcelona Montjuich Circuit with Jim Clark, Graham Hill, Jackie Stewart etc.)


The golden age. Jim Clark was a stud.....


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## valis

Not sure what happened to Red Bull during quali but betcha its related to the rear wing issues.


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## Keebellah

Looks like it, a minor mechanic flauw is directly reflected in seconds in lap times 
Today will de decisive again, will if be MAXico or not


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## valis

Wow....Hamilton relegated to the back of the grid and Mad Max tagged for 50k euros....weird weekend....


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## Keebellah

It’s clear, you may look but do not touch🤪
There’s still a race tomorrow and a 🏁


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## valis

Max gets a 5 place grid penalty, Botta 3 place.


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## Keebellah

Well, Max back to 2nd


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## valis

How Bottas' tire didnt delaminate is a mystery.


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## Keebellah

Mystery, yes with M for Mercedes


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## valis

Tell you what, I like that new track....don't agree with Saudi's policies generally but dang that's a slick track.....


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## Keebellah

The track is indeed great and fast


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## Keebellah

He did it!!! World champion 2021


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## valis

Keebellah said:


> He did it!!! World champion 2021


What a bizarre season across the board. Kudos to Max.


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## Keebellah

The finish was like the whole season. Sensational up to the last moment


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## valis

Good race at Miami today...painted on water or no...


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## Keebellah

Great race, well deserved checkered flag


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## valis

Monaco quali in a bit, rain scheduled for the race. Should be interesting. Ain't nothing like Monaco in the wet.


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## Keebellah

Monaco, great track, hard to takeover, start from pole position and you may win it, max still 4th 🥲


----------

