# Solved: Circuit breaker will not reset



## lexmarks567 (Aug 13, 2006)

there is a circuit breaker in the breaker box that refuses to reset. when i moved in power was off in the whole place but got it turned on. it worked for a short time then tripped. was able to reset it and it worked for the rest of the day then around 5AM it trips and from that point on will not reset. I replaced one light fixture on that circuit that had a loose bulb socket still won't reset. i checked one outlet so far and appears wires are fine though they have electrical tape around the outlet i guess to keep wires in place. should i replace the 2 outlets i know are on that circuit see if that works or do you think the circuit breaker is faulty. the guy said it was a faulty circuit and needs to be replaced. there are also some light sockets in what appear to be ceiling supports. they do not work either and neither does the bathroom light in my moms bathroom which was also painted over along with the circuit breaker.










here i have it off










these do not work though i only tested one


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## leroys1000 (Aug 16, 2007)

The small box to the left with 2 breakers is the main power disconnect.
Make sure to turn that off before working in the box.
I would guess that with that old of a box,the breaker is probaly worn out,
but it doesn't hurt to check.
Take the front panel off,and remove that breaker.
Unplug everything on that circuit and remove all the bulbs on that circuit.
You need to connect and ohmmeter between the wire that was on that breaker
and ground.
You shouldn't get any reading on it.
If you get a reading there is a short in the wiring somewhere.
If no reading,you have a clean circuit and changing the breaker
should solve the problem.


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## JohnWill (Oct 19, 2002)

I wonder who the rocket scientist was that painted the breakers!


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## leroys1000 (Aug 16, 2007)

Doesn't look like there has been a cover on the breakers for a long time.


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## Koot (Nov 25, 2007)

You said; "the guy said it was a faulty circuit and needs to be replaced." I assume you mean the previous owner. Did you ask him what he meant by "circuit"? In other words, did he mean the circuit breaker was faulty or that there is something faulty somewhere in the circuit components or wiring? (I doubt he knows...)

You say the C/B held for a number of hours...and then tripped. You likely either have a bad C/B or some [faulty] load on that circuit that is causing the problem. It is doubtful your problem is the wiring itself...or the C/B would have tripped right away, and never held for hours before it eventually tripped. (I assume when the C/B held that there was no indication of lights blinking, which would suggest a poor wiring joint.)

The problem might just be a bad C/B. You probably have a circuit breaker of the same size (in the breaker panel) which you could temporarily rob (and replace the tripped C/B) to see if the tripped C/B might need replacing. I would swap C/Bs and see what happens. The result of the swap will tell you if the problem is the C/B or something in the circuit wiring (a circuit load such as: lamp, heater, appliance, etc.).


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## Drabdr (Nov 26, 2007)

Koot said:


> You said; "the guy said it was a faulty circuit and needs to be replaced." I assume you mean the previous owner. Did you ask him what he meant by "circuit"? In other words, did he mean the circuit breaker was faulty or that there is something faulty somewhere in the circuit components or wiring? (I doubt he knows...)
> 
> You say the C/B held for a number of hours...and then tripped. You likely either have a bad C/B or some [faulty] load on that circuit that is causing the problem. It is doubtful your problem is the wiring itself...or the C/B would have tripped right away, and never held for hours before it eventually tripped. (I assume when the C/B held that there was no indication of lights blinking, which would suggest a poor wiring joint.)
> 
> The problem might just be a bad C/B. You probably have a circuit breaker of the same size (in the breaker panel) which you could temporarily rob (and replace the tripped C/B) to see if the tripped C/B might need replacing. I would swap C/Bs and see what happens. The result of the swap will tell you if the problem is the C/B or something in the circuit wiring (a circuit load such as: lamp, heater, appliance, etc.).


Yep. Nailed it again.:up: Very, very rarely is there a problem in the middle of a circuit. It's usually at the beginning or end of a circuit. However, people stomping around in the attic, squirrels, etc. does provide the exceptions to the "rarely" bit.

Breakers do go out, but... not as often as most think. Good advice above about switching breakers. If you really want to dig in, you can isolate the wires, and test resistance. But.. chances are it's on the load end, or the breaker is ready for replacement.


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## Drabdr (Nov 26, 2007)

Koot,

Having 3 electricians in the family (me included) tends to minimize how many electricians get called to the house.

But if I had to call one, you would be at the top of the list.:up:

Plano is lucky to have an electrician like you. But... that's a big area, so you'll need to work a few more hours!


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## Drabdr (Nov 26, 2007)

Lex, start by finding everything on that circuit. Make sure there isn't something plugged in or something throwing things off. Then (as you say), start at these questionable plugs.

My advice: Make sure that is the breaker (which is off) that feeds the questionable plugs. You don't want to pull those things out with power on. If there's an issue, sparks will fly, and it's not pretty. 

You can then take the questionable plug off, and see if the breaker resets.


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## Koot (Nov 25, 2007)

Drabdr said:


> Koot,
> 
> Having 3 electricians in the family (me included) tends to minimize how many electricians get called to the house.
> 
> ...


Hi Drabdr,

I'm not an electrician, but was in the electrical (supply) distribution business for 36 years before retiring four years ago. I have designed (engineered) mega electrical systems (valued at multiple millions of dollars) for huge multi-billion dollar projects, and of course all the way down to the most simplest of projects. I've worked with engineers and electrical contractors that would ask for my help to lay-out designs and troubleshoot problems...so I've pretty much seen it all. I'm also a Ham radio operator (first licensed when I was 12 years-old) and I designed and built a lot of my own equipment. So, I have first-hand experience with both electrical and electronic equipment.


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## lexmarks567 (Aug 13, 2006)

Koot said:


> You said; "the guy said it was a faulty circuit and needs to be replaced." I assume you mean the previous owner. Did you ask him what he meant by "circuit"? In other words, did he mean the circuit breaker was faulty or that there is something faulty somewhere in the circuit components or wiring? (I doubt he knows...)
> 
> You say the C/B held for a number of hours...and then tripped. You likely either have a bad C/B or some [faulty] load on that circuit that is causing the problem. It is doubtful your problem is the wiring itself...or the C/B would have tripped right away, and never held for hours before it eventually tripped. (I assume when the C/B held that there was no indication of lights blinking, which would suggest a poor wiring joint.)
> 
> The problem might just be a bad C/B. You probably have a circuit breaker of the same size (in the breaker panel) which you could temporarily rob (and replace the tripped C/B) to see if the tripped C/B might need replacing. I would swap C/Bs and see what happens. The result of the swap will tell you if the problem is the C/B or something in the circuit wiring (a circuit load such as: lamp, heater, appliance, etc.).


The guy was a handyman not the last owner. he said there are 2 fixtures that need replacing along with the circuit. i don't remember what 2 fixtures, i know the light fixture in the bedroom bathroom(someone turned a closet into a RV bathroom) does not work its been painted over so im guessing the bulbs are not making contact or its on the same circuit.I have a double light switch on one wall that does nothing(maybe it controls those overhead light sockets) i know the outlets don't work i plugged a light in to test before pulling one out too take a look see. when the C/B held there was no blinking or flickering lights. nothing was plugged into the wall outlets.


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## Koot (Nov 25, 2007)

My suggestion is to call an electrician. Your particular situation is next to impossible to figure out over the Internet because not only is your system old, but it sounds like a previous owner has modified [at least] this one circuit in the past...maybe multiple times. It sounds like the previous owner gave up on it ever working correctly long ago - since he painted over the light fixture sockets, etc., etc.

Unless you just get lucky it will almost certainly be a problem for you to find the problem without some test equipment (which I doubt you have) and some troubleshooting [process] experience.

If you do not want to swap C/Bs to first test the C/B to see if it is the problem then you must go through a process of elimination. If that's your desire, without test equipment, you'll want to remove each light fixture (lamp holder) and each switch and [possibly] receptacle in this problem circuit one-by-one and see if the C/B remains on. In doing so you might find the culprit device that is causing the C/B to trip. However, you've already said that the C/B can sometimes hold for many hours. Because the C/B will sometimes hold, you've got multiple items that could be the potential problem. That is why I suggest having an electrician, with first-hand knowledge and test equipment, to figure out what's going on. As an aside, a handyman is probably not what you're looking for.


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## lexmarks567 (Aug 13, 2006)

it was painted over cause whoever the painter was was too lazy to use a brush or roller and took the fast way and spray painted everything without covering anything up. even the smoke detectors on the ceiling were painted over(i replaced those). the cabinets were painted with a brush but then closed when the paint was wet. I had to pry one cabinet door open. i will replace the outlets and see what happens.


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## Koot (Nov 25, 2007)

Sorry to hear you're having to deal with the aftermath of shoddy work. 

I'm not sure what you mean by "outlets" (I assume you mean the lamp sockets or receptacles). Chances are good that the problem is not in the lamp sockets or receptacles even though they may have been painted. I'd look at the C/B and switches first, and then for a poor (high resistance) wire connection, and then the possibility that some jack-leg did something weird when tapping into the circuit to extend it in order to catch another load (e.g. fixture, etc.). There's no telling what you could find wrong in a situation like yours. But, I'd check the most likely culprits first as mentioned above.


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## lexmarks567 (Aug 13, 2006)

I pulled the cover off the box. the box is made by homeline


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## Drabdr (Nov 26, 2007)

OK, my suggestion:

1. Call a licensed electrician. It will be worth the money.

2. If you don't want to do that, switch the wires on the breaker. Making sure that the breaker is off, unscrew and remove the black wire under a breaker of the same size ("good" breaker), and place it under the questionable breaker. Then, take the wire from the questionable breaker and put it under the "good" breaker. I know this is "duh", but be sure the wires get into the screw terminals well, and make sure you tighten them on the wires.

Turn them both on, and report what happens. 

Like Koot suggests, this may not be a simple problem, and requires on-the-ground intelligence.


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## hewee (Oct 26, 2001)

Some times a breaker looks like it is off but it is not. It can be hard but push it to the off side harder. Even with the breaker no ON it is not all the was OFF. You can tell how it feels when you turn it on and off if you got another breaker to turn off that you can turn back on. A newer breaker should fix the trouble. 

That wire coming out from the bottom of the breaker box should not be in the open like that either.


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## lexmarks567 (Aug 13, 2006)

ballpark figure how much for a licensed electrician to come out and trouble shoot. some give free estimates but trouble shooting i don't think is covered.


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## Koot (Nov 25, 2007)

lexmarks567 said:


> ballpark figure how much for a licensed electrician to come out and trouble shoot. some give free estimates but trouble shooting i don't think is covered.


It's hard to say. All electricians are not the same. All technicians work at different paces, some are more experienced than others. If you get an electrician that takes 3 hours to troubleshoot a job it may take a more experienced electrician only 1 hour. I would suggest trying to find a small electrical contracting company that specializes in residential re-work (service changes, additions, remodeling, etc. in lieu of new residential construction work).

BTW, you have a good load center (Homeline) made by Square D Company. The circuit breakers are top-notch, and only bettered in my opinion by Square D's QO line of load centers and C/Bs.


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## Drabdr (Nov 26, 2007)

hewee said:


> That wire coming out from the bottom of the breaker box should not be in the open like that either.


Hewee, are you talking about the one to the left? I think that is the equipment ground for the box, is it not?


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## Drabdr (Nov 26, 2007)

lexmarks567 said:


> ballpark figure how much for a licensed electrician to come out and trouble shoot. some give free estimates but trouble shooting i don't think is covered.


Ask around. A good electrician will be worth the money. They can troubleshoot the problem quickly and effectively.


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## hewee (Oct 26, 2001)

Drabdr said:


> Hewee, are you talking about the one to the left? I think that is the equipment ground for the box, is it not?


You very first picture and the bigger breaker box on the right. It should be in some Conduit or you may be OK by taking some plywood and nail or screw on in case you need to get into it again you can undo it the bay. Even from what I see the main power line going up to the box on the left may need to have a clamp hold the wire to the wall or a 2x or 1s between the studs. This is to keep any one from pulling on the wires. Plus the ones on the right is really old wire so you don't want anyone to grab or hang anything on. And your protect the wiring too.


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## lexmarks567 (Aug 13, 2006)

hewee said:


> Some times a breaker looks like it is off but it is not. It can be hard but push it to the off side harder. Even with the breaker no ON it is not all the was OFF. You can tell how it feels when you turn it on and off if you got another breaker to turn off that you can turn back on. A newer breaker should fix the trouble.


the breaker is off. if it was tripped it would be half way between on and off.


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## Drabdr (Nov 26, 2007)

hewee said:


> You very first picture and the bigger breaker box on the right. It should be in some Conduit or you may be OK by taking some plywood and nail or screw on in case you need to get into it again you can undo it the bay. Even from what I see the main power line going up to the box on the left may need to have a clamp hold the wire to the wall or a 2x or 1s between the studs. This is to keep any one from pulling on the wires. Plus the ones on the right is really old wire so you don't want anyone to grab or hang anything on. And your protect the wiring too.


Are you talking about the five or six Romex wires going into the breaker box? There is a butterfly connector in the panel (you can see in post #14) that compresses and holds the wires in the box. It also protects the wires from the edges of the breaker box.

But I would agree with every suggestion you make here.:up::up: I really like your idea of putting plywood around the wires and stuff. It would make it look better, and keep from the wires being pulled.


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## Drabdr (Nov 26, 2007)

lexmarks567 said:


> the breaker is off. if it was tripped it would be half way between on and off.


Maybe. Hewee has a point, to assure the true position of the breaker. All breakers have a different feel. While they "should" trip in the middle position, that's not necessarily the case.

I've also taken the wire (remove the load) off a breaker to reset them. I would get the breaker working correctly, then re-attach the load wire. It worked after that.


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## lexmarks567 (Aug 13, 2006)

i know what the tripped postion is cause i was able to get it reset once before it tripped for good. pulled the cover off the ceiling light sockets looks ok wire nuts on everything. the double light switch has 4 black wires on it 2 on each side.


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## Drabdr (Nov 26, 2007)

lexmarks567 said:


> i know what the tripped postion is cause i was able to get it reset once before it tripped for good. pulled the cover off the ceiling light sockets looks ok wire nuts on everything. the double light switch has 4 black wires on it 2 on each side.


Hey, Lex!

If you pull the wire off the bottom of the breaker, it should reset. If it does, then its something downstream. If it don't, then it's the breaker.

As far as your Doogle switch in the picture, it's kind of hard to see. One set of screws should say "Line" (I would guess the gold ones), and the other should say "Load". The hot wire should be on the Line, and the black wire to the lights should be on the Load. Green screw is ground.


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## lexmarks567 (Aug 13, 2006)

Drabdr said:


> Hey, Lex!
> 
> If you pull the wire off the bottom of the breaker, it should reset. If it does, then its something downstream. If it don't, then it's the breaker.
> 
> As far as your Doogle switch in the picture, it's kind of hard to see. One set of screws should say "Line" (I would guess the gold ones), and the other should say "Load". The hot wire should be on the Line, and the black wire to the lights should be on the Load. Green screw is ground.


i will try that this weekend if its not too hot.


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## Koot (Nov 25, 2007)

Drabdr said:


> If you pull the wire off the bottom of the breaker, it should reset. If it does, then its something downstream. If it don't, then it's the breaker.


Pulling the wire off the C/B shouldn't take him more than four minutes do, and would be a good [first] indicator whether the breaker may be a problem. Also, I assume he's tried turning the light switches Off (to unload the circuit) in hopes the C/B could be reset.


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## lexmarks567 (Aug 13, 2006)

switch's are off. like said it reset once before so load shouldn't be a issue. now sense the black wire is HOT but the circuit is tripped can i pull the black wire with the fuse box still charged if i trip the breaker next to the bad one.


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## Koot (Nov 25, 2007)

lexmarks567 said:


> like said it reset once before so load shouldn't be a issue.


When you attempt to reset the C/B are you pushing the handle Off first and then back On again? When you attempt to reset the C/B are you able to move the handle all the way to the On position and then it trips Off again? Or are you not able to even get the handle to the On position?

In most cases when a [properly working] C/B is reset (by turning the handle Off and then back On again) the handle will physically move to the On position and then trip again if there is a thermal or magnetic fault. Likewise, when the C/B is faulty it is common that the handle cannot even be moved to the On position.



lexmarks567 said:


> now sense the black wire is HOT but the circuit is tripped can i pull the black wire with the fuse box still charged if i trip the breaker next to the bad one.


Turning off the C/B next to the problematic C/B will only kill another circuit.

The black wire (under the C/B screw terminal) is not hot as long as the C/B is Off or tripped, which is the case with your situation. In other words the black wire is only energized if the C/B is On, which in your case the C/B is not On because it is either tripped...or possibly a faulty C/B that will simply not turn On. (Note: This last point is why I asked the above questions in hopes of determining whether the C/B is actually tripping because of a circuit fault or if the C/B is bad (faulty) and just simply needs to be replaced.)

The first thing that needs to be done is to determine if your problem is the C/B itself or something in your circuit. That's why we have asked you to either remove the black wire from the C/B and see if it will reset okay...or to swap another [known good] C/B (of same amperage). But, since you are obviously hesitant to mess with the C/Bs or wiring...I asked the above questions as a possible means of determining the health of the C/B.


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## lexmarks567 (Aug 13, 2006)

it won't go to the on position it trips immediately. when i attempt to reset it i can see the lights in my room very slightly dim for a 1/2 second as the line attempts to energize but like said it trips immediately it does not hold in the on position at all. i will takel the breaker this weekend as i will have the place to myself.


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## Koot (Nov 25, 2007)

lexmarks567 said:


> i won't go to on it trips immediately. when i attempt to reset it i can see the lights in my room very slightly dim for a 1/2 second as the line attempts to energize but like said it trips immediately it does not hold in the on position at all. i will takel the breaker this weekend as i will have the place to myself.


Ummm, I'm assuming the lights that dim (your room) are a different circuit, not the circuit that is protected by the tripped C/B. If that's the case, then the half second dimming you're seeing (in your room lights) is an indication that there is an electrical fault in the other circuit that burdens your room circuit (lowers the voltage). However, I'm somewhat surprised you are even able to detect any dimming in your room lights before the other circuit C/B trips. If there is a short the tripping is instantaneous (1-2 cycles or about a 1/60th of a second). The noticeable dimming of your room lights tells me the problem is probably a high resistance connection instead of a dead short, which also explains why the C/B once remained On for a number of hours before it eventually tripped. Is there any lamps (light bulbs) or anything at all plugged in on the problematic circuit?

I'd say, with pretty high confidence, that your C/B that is tripping is good...and doing what it's supposed to do when it detects an electrical fault. It sounds like your problem is almost certainly somewhere in the circuit wiring or the devices (lamp holders, switches, receptacles, etc.). Your next step (without test equipment) is eliminating possible devices by disconnecting (one-by-one) each device in the circuit and then testing the C/B to see if disconnecting the device eliminated the fault and allowed the C/B to remain On. Once you can do that it needs to be determined whether the disconnected device (that allows the C/B to remain ON) is the problem, or if the problem is further downstream. But...first things first.

Are you sure you're up for this? You sound like you're pretty much against the idea of calling an electrician. He could probably find the problem and fix it within an hour.


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## lexmarks567 (Aug 13, 2006)

something i found out. when i try turning the breaker on the lamp in the living room that is plugged into the outlet that is on the problem circuit flickers for a 2nd like the power is trying to come on. so the power comes on for a split 2nd like the speed a flash in a camera goes off. does that mean there is a problem with the wiring or the breaker.i will still try removing the black wire from the breaker itself just incase the breaker is faulty. it could be damaged cause its been painted over.


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## hewee (Oct 26, 2001)

lexmarks567 said:


> the breaker is off. if it was tripped it would be half way between on and off.


If the breaker is not working right it fools you because you thing it tripped off and it seems to show that being half way between on and off but it never tripped all the way to off so it can can be reset to on. Think of a one way switch that only turns one way. Now it has turn from slot to slot to turn on and off and if you ever open an older light socket that you turn and not press the button tru the socket but turn it. It has a spring in it and if it comes lost or a part of it breaks then you can turn the switch all day long and it will not move the part inside you can not see. I never looked inside a breaker but if it works so it has to turn off 100% because you can turn it back on to clear something so it picks up on a part so when you turn it back on it can now move that part. 
See this one here. It is showing that it is on and you can see all the parts so one that is sticking will fool you into thing it is tripped off because it has no power and it feels like it is off but it is not off 100% so a spring or what ever lets it reset all the way so it will turn back on.
So even if you think it is off try turn it off hard and it can be really hard to get it to go off. But it's going so replace it.









and 
http://www.leonardo-energy.org/files/root/Photoblog/CircuitBreakerB16A_off.JPG



Drabdr said:


> Are you talking about the five or six Romex wires going into the breaker box? There is a butterfly connector in the panel (you can see in post #14) that compresses and holds the wires in the box. It also protects the wires from the edges of the breaker box.
> 
> But I would agree with every suggestion you make here.:up::up: I really like your idea of putting plywood around the wires and stuff. It would make it look better, and keep from the wires being pulled.


I know the wires are clamped where it goes into the box. But codes are not the same every where with things like this and the wire here would need to be covered somehow on the bottom right. The smaller main box is OK but I can not see it all and it is in a cover but if that is so many feet long then it should be clamped other places. Can see but if the box is eye level and you got your blocking between the studs then that help hold that 220 line going up that is on a cover. 
But that wire in the other box has to be covered. 
So screw a sheet of plywood across flush with the bottom of the right box and you cover up the wires showing.



Drabdr said:


> Maybe. Hewee has a point, to assure the true position of the breaker. All breakers have a different feel. While they "should" trip in the middle position, that's not necessarily the case.
> 
> I've also taken the wire (remove the load) off a breaker to reset them. I would get the breaker working correctly, then re-attach the load wire. It worked after that.


Yes the breaker is going bad so fools you so need replaced to be safe because you don't want it to stick on and not trip when it should trip.


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## hewee (Oct 26, 2001)

Turn off all the breaker but the one you want to turn on that you started the thread with and unhook or unplug all that is plugged in. If the breaker then comes on then you got a short or maybe your over loaded and that breaker is weaker and trips very easy.

http://www.hometips.com/diy-how-to/electrical-circuits-testing.html
http://www.dummies.com/how-to/content/how-to-test-a-circuit-breaker-with-a-voltage-teste.html
http://www.bobvila.com/HowTo_Library/Testing_Circuit_Breakers-Electrical_Boxes_and_Wiring-F2234.html
http://www10.epinions.com/review/GB_Electrical_GFI_and_Circuit_Tester_GFI/content_212168904324
The link right above in talking about the two yellow ones you plug in in the link below. They are the same but the one has a test button to trip a GFCI. You have to under stand how to read the lights but this is only for plugs. What is nice is say all works but when you go to check it can tell you that you got no ground or if the wire so the black wire is where the white should be. 
http://www.lowes.com/SearchCatalogD...N=0&newSearch=true&Ntt=circuit+tester&x=0&y=0

Other toys
http://www.acehardware.com/product/index.jsp?productId=3797642&CAWELAID=403436947
A old radio is a cheap way and you plug it in and turn the sound way up and then you go to the breaker box and when the radio goes off you know what breaker it was.


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## Koot (Nov 25, 2007)

lexmarks567 said:


> something i found out. when i try turning the breaker on the lamp in the living room that is plugged into the outlet that is on the problem circuit flickers for a 2nd like the power is trying to come on. so the power comes on for a split 2nd like the speed a flash in a camera goes off. does that mean there is a problem with the wiring or the breaker.i will still try removing the black wire from the breaker itself just incase the breaker is faulty. it could be damaged cause its been painted over.


The C/B is not damaged because it was painted...

You should have ALL loads (lamps, etc.) removed in the problem circuit. By removing ALL loads you eliminate any loads from being the culprit that is tripping the C/B and leaves just the wiring or the C/B itself as being problem. In other words, if you remove all loads and the C/B remains On - then the problem is one of the loads. It's a process of elimination...

It sounds like the C/B is probably good and tripping as it's supposed to because there is a fault in the circuit. Just remove all the loads from the problem circuit (lamps, anything plugged in to a receptacle, etc.) and let me know if the C/B remains On.

As for removing the black wire on the C/B to check the breaker - you don't even have to remove the black wire to check the C/B (to see if it will reset). Turn the 2-pole breaker Off in the box (enclosed C/B) that is mounted to the left of the 6 circuit load center. Then try resetting the problematic C/B (circuit# 6) in the load center and see if it remains On. Let me know if the problematic C/B can be reset and remains On. After checking this - turn the 2-pole C/B back On and the problematic C/B should trip again. Let me know if it does.


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## lexmarks567 (Aug 13, 2006)

when it tripped off the first time nothing was plugged in. i will try and mess it with it tomorrow going to work now.


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## hewee (Oct 26, 2001)

If you really are not sure power is off remember to keep one hand behind you. You don't want to have the other hand holding something so keep it behind you. That way if you touch a hotwire your safer then if you was holding the side of the box etc. The power will always take the shorter route so in the hand and out the same hand. If you had your other hand out then it goes tru your body and that means heart to go out the other hand. It never safe but that helps protect you a little if you have power.


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## Koot (Nov 25, 2007)

hewee said:


> If you really are not sure power is off remember to keep one hand behind you. You don't want to have the other hand holding something so keep it behind you. That way if you touch a hotwire your safer then if you was holding the side of the box etc. The power will always take the shorter route so in the hand and out the same hand. If you had your other hand out then it goes tru your body and that means heart to go out the other hand. It never safe but that helps protect you a little if you have power.


I use the touch test myself...to feel a tingle if it's hot. But...I often do various things with the circuit still live. It keeps me focused.


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## hewee (Oct 26, 2001)

Koot said:


> I use the touch test myself...to feel a tingle if it's hot. But...I often do various things with the circuit still live. It keeps me focused.


I don't like to but at times you need the power on to find out things so you do got to watch out.
Even then doing the touch test with a finger I keep the other hand back away from things. Put the other hang in the back pocket or what ever.

On job site when they have the Temp power lines to the temp power boxes you had one really big 440 power cable and the ends are medal that would plug in at the meter and to the boxes would all have 220 and 110 outlets and breakers also. I hate having to go around and hook them up and unhook them each day and even worse when it was raining. Even when the ends were plastic it did not stop the feeling you got that was the worse when two cables go together because you have to hold each one and you could feel in up both arm as your muscles are twitching in your arms. It was not a shock or a shock-shock but you had that power going tru the lines and the covering etc still. So it was always spooky. Was alway nice when they get thing build and get the other power that would stay there running so you did not need the temp boxes. They are very heavy cables too because they are about 1.5 inches thick of find dark red copper so really nice copper but that makes 50 foot cable very heavy and you don't want to carry them around so got to drive around to each and roll them up on the ground and then pick them up and put in the truck. There were a 4 wire twist lock with these bumps and slots on the other edge of the plugs.


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## lexmarks567 (Aug 13, 2006)

ok turned the main breaker off. C/B resets no problem. turn the main breaker back on it trips immediately.


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## lexmarks567 (Aug 13, 2006)

ok removed the black wire and reinstalled the breaker. turned power on the breaker resets like it should does not trip. im going to replace it anyway as a precaution but will work on the outlets also.


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## Koot (Nov 25, 2007)

lexmarks567 said:


> ok turned the main breaker off. C/B resets no problem. turn the main breaker back on it trips immediately.


By turning the 2-pole C/B off in the enclosed C/B (mounted to the left of the 6 circuit load center) you killed the power which allowed the C/B in the load center (circuit #6) to reset because it no longer saw an electrical fault. However, when you turned the 2-pole C/B back on (which powered the load center) circuit #6 C/B tripped again because it once again saw the electrical fault due to the power being turned back on. This indicates that the #6 C/B is working correctly...and that you do indeed have an electrical fault somewhere in circuit #6.



lexmarks567 said:


> ok removed the black wire and reinstalled the breaker. *turned power on the breaker resets like it should does not trip.* im going to replace it anyway as a precaution but will work on the outlets also.


Removing the black wire (as you did) should allow the C/B to be reset, which it did as expected. However, you said that when you turned the power back On, assuming you mean both the main power (2-pole C/B & #6 C/B) that C/B #6 remained resest and does not trip. Question - are you telling me that you have both the 2-pole (Main) C/B in the On position and also the #6 C/B in the On position too (with the black wire hooked up) and that #6 C/B did not trip? Please confirm. It is odd that the #6 C/B would remain reset [now] with power on the #6 circuit. But, you said that #6 C/B remained On for many hours before tripping once before.

Just to make absolutely sure you don't have a bad C/B I'd go ahead and replace it before messing with the outlets (receptacles). You really only want to eliminate things one-by-one instead of having multiple things changed/altered at the same time. Otherwise you won't know what the problem is (was).


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## wacor (Feb 22, 2005)

no need to replace the breaker to see if it is bad

Just swap circuits. If you put a different circuit on that breaker and it trips then it would be the breaker.

I am with Koot and don't think it is the breaker though. Like he said remove all the loads and then install one at a time. Then if it is a lamp or something you plugged in go and plug it into a different outlet and see if the breaker trips. If the breaker trips then you found the lamp or whatever is at fault. If it does not trip then plug a different lamp or something into the other outlet and see if it trips. If it does then it is something in the wiring.


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## Drabdr (Nov 26, 2007)

wacor said:


> no need to replace the breaker to see if it is bad
> 
> Just swap circuits. If you put a different circuit on that breaker and it trips then it would be the breaker.
> 
> I am with Koot and don't think it is the breaker though. Like he said remove all the loads and then install one at a time. Then if it is a lamp or something you plugged in go and plug it into a different outlet and see if the breaker trips. If the breaker trips then you found the lamp or whatever is at fault. If it does not trip then plug a different lamp or something into the other outlet and see if it trips. If it does then it is something in the wiring.


I don't think it's the breaker either. I have seen breakers go out. But, it's just because I've seen a lot of them. It's really rare.

Such problems like this are best resolved using the advice already given here. Start at the breaker, and work your way back. Do one thing at a time. The first thing that needs to happen here is conclusively determine if the breaker is good.:up:


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## Koot (Nov 25, 2007)

wacor said:


> no need to replace the breaker to see if it is bad
> 
> Just swap circuits. If you put a different circuit on that breaker and it trips then it would be the breaker.
> 
> I am with Koot and don't think it is the breaker though. Like he said remove all the loads and then install one at a time. Then if it is a lamp or something you plugged in go and plug it into a different outlet and see if the breaker trips. If the breaker trips then you found the lamp or whatever is at fault. If it does not trip then plug a different lamp or something into the other outlet and see if it trips. If it does then it is something in the wiring.


Hey Wacor...

It sounds like he has a fault somewhere in the circuit's wiring because (I think) he has removed all possible loads and the C/B still trips. The problem could be anywhere from the load center all the way to the last piece of romex or device. Unfortunately he is not at all clear and detail about a number of things he's done. Nor is he very clear in explaining precisely the various pieces of information that means so much in troubleshooting his problem. There are a lot unanswered questions, which makes helping him more difficult. And...trying to help someone with no [electrical] troubleshooting experience or test equipment makes things even more difficult.

Unless a nail or staple has been driven through the romex and is now causing an intermittent tripping scenario it sounds like the problem is likely in one of the devices (switches, receptacles, lamp holders, etc.). But, I'm still confused by what information he tells me. I'm not even sure he has all loads disconnected from the circuit (lamps unscrewed, things unplugged, etc.). It sounds like he's bound and determined to see if he can fix it himself with help over the Internet instead of paying an electrician or technician for an hour. If I was there in person I'm sure I could find the problem within 15-30 minutes, but that's not the case. It's just one 15 or 20 amp 120 volt circuit with a minimal number of switches, receptacles and lamp sockets. Checking everything and even isolating and testing the different lengths of romex in that circuit could be done quickly... But, it's next to impossible for him to accomplish that same task without some electrical [troubleshooting] knowledge and test equipment. But, we press on...


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## wacor (Feb 22, 2005)

I agree Koot that it is likely not the wire at fault although that is the old type. It could always be an animal chewed threw something in an attic though. 

Like you said it is a process of elimination. If you do it methodically it is not all that hard to pinpoint the problem. If you go at it helter skelter you might as well not bother as you chase yourself in circles. If unplugging everything and reconnecting things one by one finds nothing then I agree he needs to hire an electrician or make sure he has darn good insurance. My brother twice almost lost a house due to an electrical fire.


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## paisanol69 (Sep 7, 2005)

IMHO, based on the pics that Lex has posted so far, and thinking about the extra electrical work done at a later date, that he also mentioned, I would be willing to hazzard a guess, that at some point in time, someone has come along and wired up something that is not "kosher" with respect to keeping the hot ( load) and neutral wires in their correct phase.

(ceiling fan, w/light kit,etc, etc.)

at any rate, Koot is right, paying a qualified electrician will probably be the best way to solve this, since as the trouble shooting goes forward, there is always a chance that when you (Lex) start poking around in the outlet and switch wiring, something might just get "tucked" back into its electrical enclosure, and in the process, may become dislodged, causing even more problems/hazzards. An experienced electrician will have a "feel" for this kind of thing, and be a lot less likely to be the cause of any older wiring coming undone.

not picking at you Lex, just feel for you. Its very hard to safely troubleshoot electrical problems over the internt. I wish you luck!


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## wowzer (Dec 28, 2009)

coming in late although I have been reading this thread... maybe I missed it... but...

Has a new braker been tried? It's the most obvious place to start and easily done live with any common sense.

I'm not a licenced electrian but do all the wiring troubleshooting and additions to my companies building with 3 phase 440/220/115 and stepdown transformers everywhere.

Koot and the others as well as any qualified electrian would solve the problem in 10 or 15 minutes or less.

I'm not picking on Lex either but if you don't know how to do it methodicly/logicly you're just chasing your tail


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## lexmarks567 (Aug 13, 2006)

well im done. installed the new breaker the new outlets 2 new fixtures. turned everything on so far the new C/B is holding(working) the outlets work but i still can't get the damned 2 light fixtures to light. screw it im done will call a pro later on down the line with i have $$$$ for one. at least right now i got the outlets running so if it holds through the night no more extension cords everywhere.


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## Koot (Nov 25, 2007)

lexmarks567 said:


> well im done. installed the new breaker the new outlets 2 new fixtures. turned everything on so far the new C/B is holding(working) the outlets work but i still can't get the damned 2 light fixtures to light. screw it im done will call a pro later on down the line with i have $$$$ for one. at least right now i got the outlets running so if it holds through the night no more extension cords everywhere.


I'm glad you got the receptacles working. I hope the new C/B holds and doesn't trip later like the original C/B once did (after many hours). The fact that the original C/B held for many hours and then [just] tripped has always been a mystery to me. I have yet to understand from you if something you did (trying to turn something On or plugging something into a receptacle) caused the original C/B to trip.

If I understand you correctly - you replaced the C/B, the receptacles, and two light fixtures. You have not mentioned anything about wall switches - did you also replace the switches?

The problem remains - that you simply do not know why the receptacles are [now] working and the new C/B is holding. Was it the new C/B? (Maybe) Was it one of the old receptacles? (Almost impossible) Was something previously mis-wired that you corrected but failed to mention? (Doubtful with your lack of experience) With respect to the two [new] light fixtures that [still] don't work - you don't know if they had been purposely disconnected (by someone before you bought the place) upstream in the circuit somewhere (switch box, receptacle box, ceiling box, junction box) or if they are mis-wired.

The bottom line is - you could have saved yourself both time and money by not purchasing and replacing things (C/B, receptacles, light fixtures) that checked out good and didn't need replacing. It's kind of like replacing a car's water pump and radiator when the problem is [just] a hose. An electrician would only replace/repair what is actually needed...

I think you're wise to have an electrician determine why the lights don't work. Again, I hope the new C/B holds and doesn't trip later like the original C/B once did (after many hours). Good luck!


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## lexmarks567 (Aug 13, 2006)

you have not seen the old outlets. some were a grounded type or ground wire not hooked up. the wires are brittle some broke trying to wrap them around the screw terminal. to show you old they are have you ever seen a outlet that did not have screw terminals insteal 2 backstab connectors in each corner for a total of 8 wires. maybe something came loose. i don't know why i ask for help on this forum when all i get is flames. even if i didn't replace the parts I STILL DON'T HAVE 5000 DOLLARS FOR A ELECTRICIAN TO COME OUT AND FIX THE PROBLEM.


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## Koot (Nov 25, 2007)

lexmarks567 said:


> you have not seen the old outlets. some were a grounded type or ground wire not hooked up. the wires are brittle some broke trying to wrap them around the screw terminal. to show you old they are have you ever seen a outlet that did not have screw terminals insteal 2 backstab connectors in each corner for a total of 8 wires. maybe something came loose. i don't know why i ask for help on this forum when all i get is flames. even if i didn't replace the parts I STILL DON'T HAVE 5000 DOLLARS FOR A ELECTRICIAN TO COME OUT AND FIX THE PROBLEM.


Yes, I have indeed seen all types and ages of wiring devices...going all the way back to the earliest knob-and-spool wiring and open knife-blade switches.

I do not think anyone flamed you. Please don't take your [obvious] lack of knowledge and lack of test equipment the wrong way. That said however, I (for one) expected better two-way communication from you in exchange for help.

It's apparent you do not want (or cannot afford) to have an electrician fix your problem...and it's understandable you are frustrated because you are unable to fix it yourself. I respect that, but please don't take your frustration out on people that have been willing to help you.

Let me know when you have $5,000 set aside for an electrician and I will arrange to fly to Warren, Michigan and fix you up...and will even buy you a five course meal at the best restaurant you can find.

Seriously though, you should be able to find an electrician willing to fix your problem at minimal cost. Many guys do little moonlighting jobs all the time to make a few extra bucks. If you can find an electrician that lives reasonably close to you he'd probably do it for $50 or less. It's just finding such a person. If you want to know how I would easily and quickly find such a person (if I were you), let me know. I'd be happy to tell you.


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## hewee (Oct 26, 2001)

The old war housing I was renting before moving here had old wires from back around WW2. Also the old plugs and no ground. I ran a ground wire from the ground outside and around the corner to the single hung window that was newer and metal and drill hole at the bottom side so you could run the wire tru it and still close the window. 
Then I ran it down to the plug under the window. and then ran it down to the floor and at the base to the next plug and then ran it up to the plug. I changed those two plugs to grounded plugs so I could plug the Tandy 1000 computer in to and TV etc. But who ever wired the place cut to far cutting around the wire to take the covering off because when I go to unscrew the wire it break off back where the covering was cut away. Was like that many places in that house. Just grabbing the outlet and pull it out of the box in the wall could make the wire break. 

Maybe you got some lose like that also. Can't you have a short or leak that is grounded so you don't get shocked but your leaking power tru what ever? This would mean if it is around a light your not getting the full power so that is why it not very bright.


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## lexmarks567 (Aug 13, 2006)

ok heres whats i did wrong. I broke a metal tab off on the duplex switch and should not have done that as one breaker powers all lights so half the lights have power cause only half the switch has power. if the CB does not trip off i will replace the switch but keep the current one incase fixing the problem causes the breaker to trip cause then we narrowed down the problem.


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## jiml8 (Jul 3, 2005)

Drabdr said:


> Yep. Nailed it again.:up: Very, very rarely is there a problem in the middle of a circuit. It's usually at the beginning or end of a circuit. However, people stomping around in the attic, squirrels, etc. does provide the exceptions to the "rarely" bit.
> 
> Breakers do go out, but... not as often as most think. Good advice above about switching breakers. If you really want to dig in, you can isolate the wires, and test resistance. But.. chances are it's on the load end, or the breaker is ready for replacement.


Never assume.

One factor that should be considered is the quality of construction.

I once ripped the drywall off of a wall because I was both remodeling and rewiring that room (actually, the whole house, including complete electric changeout.

The person who constructed the room had, under a window, doubled up some vertically oriented 2x4s with the apparent intent of shimming and strengthening an opening for a window. He then drilled a hole through the two 2x4s that were doubled, and ran a cloth-covered 14 gauge romex wire through it.

The doubling wasn't done properly; over years, the 2x4s were able to shift relative to each other and they did so, pinching the hole shut with a scissoring motion. When I ripped out the drywall, I found the romex completely severed and the red wire from inside that romex with its insulation cut, and some evidence of charring on the 2x4s. I suppose I was within months of having a fire when I opened that wall up.

Most probably your circuit breaker is bad. But not certainly. You should certainly use an ohmmeter to look downstream into your circuit, checking all paths to make sure you don't have a short.. If you find a short, you start with the outlets and lights; those are the most likely sources. But if you don't find it there, your problem is in the wall someplace.


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## hewee (Oct 26, 2001)

lexmarks567 said:


> ok heres whats i did wrong. I broke a metal tab off on the duplex switch and should not have done that as one breaker powers all lights so half the lights have power cause only half the switch has power. if the CB does not trip off i will replace the switch but keep the current one incase fixing the problem causes the breaker to trip cause then we narrowed down the problem.


Where I am at now every switch that goes to a plug because of the way they ran the wire you can not break off any of the tabs on the plugs and I never see any place wired that way. I go my computer in here and I need to plug in there but also want to use the light switch for the light because there are no ceiling light but the dinning, kitchen. But had to make sure the plug stays on all the time so I put tap over the switch so I don't or someone else does not turn off the power. I hate it but can't do anything about it.


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## lexmarks567 (Aug 13, 2006)

after replacing the duplex switch and leaving the tab intact the C/B would not turn back on. replaced it with the one with the broken tab C/B turned on. There is a short or fault somewhere on the 2nd line that the top half of the switch is supposed to power. thats why it reset the 2nd half is not powered sense the tab is removed there for i bypassed the short. time to call a pro when i have a couple $1000 to spare.


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## wacor (Feb 22, 2005)

It won't cost you that much. Have the electrician find where the fault is and then tell him you will fix it yourself. Depending up if the house it could be simple to replace a wire. For $100 or so you will know what is wrong. Unless it is a really screwed up mess. It would take an electrician to spend a full day there to rack up a $1K bill


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## JohnWill (Oct 19, 2002)

If all else fails, I'd abandon the run and rewire. Of course, I can't imagine it being that bad.


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## Drabdr (Nov 26, 2007)

Lex... don't get so frustrated. It's not going to cost that much to get a decent electrician.:up:



lexmarks567 said:


> after replacing the duplex switch and leaving the tab intact the C/B would not turn back on. replaced it with the one with the broken tab C/B turned on. There is a short or fault somewhere on the 2nd line that the top half of the switch is supposed to power. thats why it reset the 2nd half is not powered sense the tab is removed there for i bypassed the short. time to call a pro when i have a couple $1000 to spare.


Ok, we're making progress. You've narrowed down that it is not the breaker.

What duplex switch? What tab?

If it is the tab feeding the top and bottom, look at how the old one was. If the old one was broke off, this one probably needs to be also. The tab is to feed both sides with a hot wire (and/or a neutral). However, if they are separate circuits, it may need to be taken off.

So, if you have this duplex switch out of the picture, everything is working OK?


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## Drabdr (Nov 26, 2007)

jiml8 said:


> Never assume.
> 
> One factor that should be considered is the quality of construction.
> 
> ...


:up:

I never assume anything. But I do play the odds. Most errors occur at one of the ends, where the connections/terminations occur. But things do happen, as you mention. That's why one must start 1) where the most current work was done. If nothing is found, go back to the source and work backwards.


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## Koot (Nov 25, 2007)

lexmarks567 said:


> after replacing the duplex switch and leaving the tab intact the C/B would not turn back on. replaced it with the one with the broken tab C/B turned on. There is a short or fault somewhere on the 2nd line that the top half of the switch is supposed to power. thats why it reset the 2nd half is not powered sense the tab is removed there for i bypassed the short. time to call a pro when i have a couple $1000 to spare.


Do you know if anything on the top switch (that causes the C/B to trip) is something that has been remodeled or added?

How many receptacles boxes and ceiling/light boxes are on the top switch (that causes the C/B to trip)?

How many wires are on the entire duplex switch, excluding any ground wire you may or may not have?

How many wires are hooked up to the side with the black screws?

What color wires are on the top switch?

Do you see any red colored wires in the switch box?

Are any receptacles controlled (switched On & Off) by the bottom switch?

What color wires are on the bottom switch?

Do you see any white wires in the switch box that are joined together?

Do you have a ceiling (paddle) fan or bathroom (fart) fan on this circuit? If so, does it also have a light?


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## lexmarks567 (Aug 13, 2006)

*Do you know if anything on the top switch (that causes the C/B to trip) is something that has been remodeled or added?*

everything that's on the top switch is existing.

*How many receptacles boxes and ceiling/light boxes are on the top switch (that causes the C/B to trip)?*

5 light fixtures on the top switch. 3 in the living room which are in between the ceiling supports. they are old but are hooked up correctly they do not have a ground) one over the kitchen sink . the old fixture worked when the C/B worked for the short time before tripping off. replaced it with a new fixture did not help(white to white black to black no ground on fixture has a pull chain box has a ground wire connected to a screw) the other is in a closet bathroom controlled by a light switch. the light switch was 3 wire on it 2 on one terminal. the other 2 wires are crimped into 1 wire and attached to the switch. switch is grounded. replaced switch also installing it the same way upside down not enough wire to reverse it. replaced the light fixture itself has it was painted over. fixture has 4 wires 2 white 2 black attached with wire nut to existing white and black wires. this fixture has a ground which is attached to the grounding screw with the main supply ground.

*How many wires are on the entire duplex switch, excluding any ground wire you may or may not have?*

4 wires on the switch excluding ground which is connected.

*How many wires are hooked up to the side with the black screws?*

2 wires

*What color wires are on the top switch?*

black

*What color wires are on the bottom switch?*

black

*Do you see any white wires in the switch box that are joined together?*

yes 2 white wires connected together with a wirenut

*Do you have a ceiling (paddle) fan or bathroom fan on this circuit? If so, does it also have a light? *

no its on another circuit light kit works ceiling fan motor is shot( can feel it vibrating when i turn it by hand with the motor on and not when its off)


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## lexmarks567 (Aug 13, 2006)

Drabdr said:


> Lex... don't get so frustrated. It's not going to cost that much to get a decent electrician.:up:
> 
> Ok, we're making progress. You've narrowed down that it is not the breaker.
> 
> ...


the old duplex switch had the tab intact i broke the new one off. this is the switch in question

http://www.homedepot.com/Electrical...splay?langId=-1&storeId=10051&catalogId=10053

i have 2 of these here right now. the one that i broke the tab off of is the reason why the breaker is working the section with the short or whatever does not have power therefor the breaker is working. if i install the other new switch with the tab intact the breaker does not reset. so right now its narrowed down. also remember the switch is installed upside down from the picture. the black screws are on the left.


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## Koot (Nov 25, 2007)

Do you still have a duplex swith with the tab on it? If so, reinstall the switch but only connect one of the black (Hot - Feed) wires on the tab side of the switch. Put a piece of tape on the loose black wire that is no longer connected, or place it somewhere where you don't touch it, or can come in contact with any bare connections. Turn the C/B back On and turn the two switches On. Tell me if you have power to everything that is supposed to be controlled (switched) by these two switches...


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## lexmarks567 (Aug 13, 2006)

all light fixtures controlled by the switch work but 2 other light fixtures the one in the kitchen and the one in the closet bathroom do not work still. the one over the sink is supposed to have constant power as it has a pull chain. it is powered by the C/B i replaced. i connected the bottom black to the duplex switch.


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## Koot (Nov 25, 2007)

lexmarks567 said:


> all light fixtures controlled by the switch work but 2 other light fixtures the one in the kitchen and the one in the closet bathroom do not work still. the one over the sink is supposed to have constant power as it has a pull chain. it is powered by the C/B i replaced. i connected the bottom black to the duplex switch.


Okay, help me understand a little better.

Are some of the lights that were previously not working - working now? In other words - are we making progress by having more lights work?

With both switches in the On position how many total lights still do not work? Give them a specific name so I can refer to them without any misunderstanding, e.g. Closet Bath, Sink, Kitchen, etc.

Did you have a C/B to trip?


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## lexmarks567 (Aug 13, 2006)

6 lights that did not work + 2 outlets now work. however the kitchen light over the sink does not work still. it did work for a short time before the old C/B tripped off and would not reset. I replaced it cause it did not have a bulb cover and the bulb socket was loose. It had a pull chain so i replaced with a new ceiling mount fixture that has a pull chain. this light is located underneath the overhead cabinet. there is a makeshift wooden box inside the cabinet but i cannot get the lid off cause the screws are so corroded. the 2nd fixture is located in the bedroom bathroom which is the size of a closet, this is controlled by a light switch but there is no power to the switch. i replaced this fixture also during the electrical repair. the bedroom it is in is on a different circuit.


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## Koot (Nov 25, 2007)

lexmarks567 said:


> 6 lights that did not work + 2 outlets now work. however the kitchen light over the sink does not work still. it did work for a short time before the old C/B tripped off and would not reset. I replaced it cause it did not have a bulb cover and the bulb socket was loose. It had a pull chain so i replaced with a new ceiling mount fixture that has a pull chain. this light is located underneath the overhead cabinet. there is a makeshift wooden box inside the cabinet but i cannot get the lid off cause the screws are so corroded. the 2nd fixture is located in the bedroom bathroom which is the size of a closet, this is controlled by a light switch but there is no power to the switch. i replaced this fixture also during the electrical repair. the bedroom it is in is on a different circuit.


Okay - good. We are making progress by powering up lights and receptacles that have not been working. That's good news.

Now, we are only interested in what is still not working.

The way I understand things - we have only two lights that are still not working (as follows):
Kitchen light over the sink (Sink Light)
Bedroom bath light (Bath Light)
(Please let me know if the above is correct, or not correct.)

Is the closet light switch that controls the Bath Light in the On position?

Do the two switches (of the duplex switch) control different lights and/or receptacles as you would expect them to do...or recall that they once did?

Can you confirm that the two light fixtures that still don't work (Sink Light & Bath Light) were replaced by you?
Can you confirm that the closet light switch was changed by you?

How close (physically in feet) are the Sink Light and the Bath Light to one another? In other words, does it seem reasonable that someone would loop romex (in order to provide power) from one light fixture to the other light fixture (or the closet switch).

Did you move any of the C/Bs (or the wire from a C/B terminal) from their original position to another position (i.e. C/B position #6, #5, #4, etc.) in the load center?

Do you have a volt meter (with test leads) that can read 120 volts AC? 
Do you have a lamp (light bulb) socket with pigtails that could be used for testing?


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## lexmarks567 (Aug 13, 2006)

*The way I understand things - we have only two lights that are still not working (as follows):
Kitchen light over the sink (Sink Light)
Bedroom bath light (Bath Light)
(Please let me know if the above is correct, or not correct.)
*

correct

*Is the closet light switch that controls the Bath Light in the On position?*

it is on(installed upside down) has 3 wires on it. 2 are attached to 1 screw the other is actully 2 wires brass crimped together and pigtailed to make it into 1 wire.

*Do the two switches (of the duplex switch) control different lights and/or receptacles as you would expect them to do...or recall that they once did?*

they control the overhead living room lights only outlets have constant power. they work like they should now

*Can you confirm that the two light fixtures that still don't work (Sink Light & Bath Light) were replaced by you?
Can you confirm that the closet light switch was changed by you?
*
yes i replaced them both

*How close (physically in feet) are the Sink Light and the Bath Light to one another? In other words, does it seem reasonable that someone would loop romex (in order to provide power) from one light fixture to the other light fixture (or the closet switch).*

8 or 9 of my feet heal toe with 10 1/2 size shoes

*Did you move any of the C/Bs (or the wire from a C/B terminal) from their original position to another position (i.e. C/B position #6, #5, #4, etc.) in the load center? 
*
i did not rearrange any wires in the breaker box.

*Do you have a volt meter that can read 120 volts AC?*

not yet

*Do you have a lamp (light bulb) socket with pigtails that could be used for testing?*

no but could a extension cord hard wired to the supply wires work with something plugged into it for testing reasons.


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## lexmarks567 (Aug 13, 2006)

ok removed the one black wire that made the 6 lights work and replaced it with the other black wire on the top screw. breaker turns on but none of the lights work


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## lexmarks567 (Aug 13, 2006)

im done. i wired everything the same there is no reason those fixtures should not have power. i'm going to call some people in the morning see how much they charge to just come out and trouble shoot. i bet its something simple and i cannot figure it out.


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## Koot (Nov 25, 2007)

I acknowledge your answers to my questions. Thanks! That's very helpful... Let's not use an extension cord unless you have an inexpensive zip cord extention cord just laying around that is not needed and you don't mind cutting the plug off of it. Let me know...



lexmarks567 said:


> ok removed the one black wire that made the 6 lights work and replaced it with the other black wire on the top screw. breaker turns on but none of the lights work


Okay - exchange the wires back to the way it was so the six lights work again.



lexmarks567 said:


> im done. i wired everything the same there is no reason those fixtures should not have power. i'm going to call some people in the morning see how much they charge to just come out and trouble shoot. i bet its something simple and i cannot figure it out.


We've made very good progress. We now have everything but two light fixtures working. The only thing we need to figure out is where the Bath Light and Sink Light are to get their power....and why feeding them with the disconnected black wire (on the duplex switch) causes the C/B to trip. The problem could be with the wiring in one of the light fixtures, or in the closet switch, or in the box where the duplex switch is.

If you want to continue troubleshooting hopefully we can get these last two fixtures up-and-going. If so, I'd like for you to:

Turn Off the closet switch that controls the Bath Light (fixture)...and also disconnect the black wire from the Sink Light (fixture) wiring. Then, reinstall the loose black wire to the tab side of duplex switch. I need to know if the C/B still trips. (Note: I do not expect either light fixture (Sink Light or Bath Light) to work, but doing this (and learning if the C/B trips) will tell me something I need to know.)


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## lexmarks567 (Aug 13, 2006)

Koot said:


> Turn Off the closet switch that controls the Bath Light (fixture)...and also disconnect the black wire from the Sink Light (fixture) wiring. Then, reinstall the loose black wire to the tab side of duplex switch. I need to know if the C/B still trips. (Note: I do not expect either light fixture (Sink Light or Bath Light) to work, but doing this (and learning if the C/B trips) will tell me something I need to know.)


still trips or won't turn back on as i now just turn that breaker off instead of the main. will put it back to working for now.


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## Koot (Nov 25, 2007)

lexmarks567 said:


> still trips or won't turn back on as i now just turn that breaker off instead of the main. will put it back to working for now.


Okay. Thanks for doing that. Just remove the black wire that I asked you to install on the tab side of the duplex switch so everything works again except the Bath Light and Sink Light.

Just so you'll know...and to confirm - I wanted you to disconnect [take out of the circuit] the Bath Light (by turning Off the closet switch) and disconnect [take out of the circuit] the Sink Light (by disconnecting the black wire that connects the fixture.  By taking these two problem loads out of the circuit, and learning that the C/B trips when the black wire is hooked up to the tab side of the duplex switch, it tells me the problem is not in the two fixtures and [probably] not in the closet switch wiring either.

It appears the problem is associated with loose black wire in the duplex switch box. We need to figure out where this wire comes from...and where it goes. It's obviously causing a fault when it is connected to the duplex switch's hot feed wire even though we have disconnected the two loads this wire SUPPOSEDLY feeds. In essence (by disconnecting the two loads) we have done the same as connecting a length of wire that leads to nothing, which of course should not cause a fault. But, connecting the wire does indeed cause a fault! Therefore, we'll need to do some testing (or experimenting) to figure out the source of that black wire - where it comes from and where it goes.

We'll work on it some more tomorrow and hopefully get everything sorted out and working correctly. Be patient and I will do everything I can to help you the best I can over the Internet and you without any test equipment... Does that sound okay to you?


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## lexmarks567 (Aug 13, 2006)

OK whats weird is neither wire by itself will cause the C/B to trip but attach them both it trips. good night


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## Koot (Nov 25, 2007)

lexmarks567 said:


> OK whats weird is neither wire by itself will cause the C/B to trip but attach them both it trips. good night


Let's recap a little.

Hooking up one just one of the black wires (on the duplex switch) powers up everything except the two fixtures. Correct?

Hooking up just the other black wire by itself does nothing. Correct? Does the C/B trip when you do this?

Before we move forward tell me a few more things I need to know:

Closet switch wiring:
You said that there are two black wires on one terminal. Is that correct? What color is this screw (silver or brass)?

You said there are two more black wires in the closet switch box that are crimped together. Is there a pigtail from this crimped joint attached to the other terminal? What color is this screw (silver or brass)?

Tell me more about the pullchain in the kitchen:
Is the pull chain actually part of the new kitchen Sink Light, or is the pullchain a porcelain lampholder?

Romex entering the two switch boxes:
In the two switch boxes (duplex switch box & closet switch box) - do you have romex that is coming into these boxes from above and below?

Was there ever a time when you saw everything working (all lights, both duplex switches controlling lights & closet switch controlling Bath Light)?


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## lexmarks567 (Aug 13, 2006)

*Hooking up one just one of the black wires (on the duplex switch) powers up everything except the two fixtures. Correct?*

correct

*Hooking up just the other black wire by itself does nothing. Correct? Does the C/B trip when you do this?*

correct. C/B does not trip none of the lights have power.

*Closet switch wiring:You said there are two more black wires in the closet switch box that are crimped together. Is there a pigtail from this crimped joint attached to the other terminal? What color is this screw (silver or brass)?*

brass and looking closer now there not black there white 2 white wires brass crimped together and pigtailed to make a single wire 
*
Tell me more about the pullchain in the kitchen:
Is the pull chain actually part of the new kitchen Sink Light, or is the pullchain a porcelain lampholder?*

it is part of the new fixture. the old fixture also a had a pull chain on/off switch.

*Romex entering the two switch boxes:
In the two switch boxes (duplex switch box & closet switch box) - do you have romex that is coming into these boxes from above and below? *

closest bathroom box yes duplex box has 2 set of wires looks like from the top and below.

*Was there ever a time when you saw everything working (all lights, both duplex switches controlling lights & closet switch controlling Bath Light)?*

yes before the old C/B tripped off for good the old kitchen light worked along with the outlets don't know about the duplex switch but i know after the old c/b tripped nothing worked. all 4 wires at the time were attached to the old duplex switch which was a non grounded one.


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## Koot (Nov 25, 2007)

lexmarks567 said:


> Closet switch wiring:You said there are two more black wires in the closet switch box that are crimped together. Is there a pigtail from this crimped joint attached to the other terminal? What color is this screw (silver or brass)?[/B]
> 
> brass and *looking closer now there not black there white 2 white wires brass crimped together and pigtailed to make a single wire*


Okay - thanks for the answers.

Let's focus on the closet switch wiring. I need to make sure I understand more, so be patient with me as I ask more questions about it.

How many romex cables (not individual wires) come into the box?

How many total black wires come into the box?

How many total white wires come into the box?

Does the switch have only two terminal screws, excluding the ground screw?

The two white wires that are crimped together (which you earlier thought were black):

Are these two white wires crimped together and has a single wire pigtail (from the crimp) that connects to a terminal on the switch? If so, what color is the single wire pigtail coming from the crimp? Put another way - do you have one or more white wires that are connected to the switch?

Trying to remember back when you replaced this switch was there any electrical tape on the single wire pigtail coming from the crimp joint?

What color is the wire that connects to the other (side of the switch) terminal?

How confident are you that you rewired this switch back the exact same way it was before you replaced the switch?


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## lexmarks567 (Aug 13, 2006)

*How many romex cables (not individual wires) come into the box?*

2

*How many total black wires come into the box?*

2

*How many total white wires come into the box?*

2

*Does the switch have only two terminal screws, excluding the ground screw?
*

yes

*Are these two white wires crimped together and has a single wire pigtail (from the crimp) that connects to a terminal on the switch? If so, what color is the single wire pigtail coming from the crimp? Put another way - do you have one or more white wires that are connected to the switch?
*

the 2 white wires are connected to the switch via the pigtail which makes it one wire.

*Trying to remember back when you replaced this switch was there any electrical tape on the single wire pigtail coming from the crimp joint? *

i think it did. theres nothing on there now but its not touching anything.

*How confident are you that you rewired this switch back the exact same way it was before you replaced the switch?*

i don't have enough slack in the wires or enough wire as it is to wire it wrong the switch will only go in upside down cause the wires won't reach the other side.

if it helps i did go to radio shack and picked up a multy meter. it measure voltage current resistance and decibels. it is analog and i have no idea how to read the stupid thing http://www.radioshack.com/product/index.jsp?productId=2103170


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## Koot (Nov 25, 2007)

Thanks for answers. I'm glad you bought a multimeter - it will come in handy now...and I'm sure later too.

A couple more questions, and then we'll get started. 

What type of fixture is the Sink Light (e.g. fluorescent, incandescent)?

How many romex cables are in the box feeding the Sink Light? 

Does the romex feeding the Sink Light have a ground wire in the romex, and is it attached to the fixture?

Is the Sink Light mounted to anything metal or touching anything (i.e. appliance) that would provide a natural ground path?


What type of fixture is the Bath Light (e.g. fluorescent, incandescent)?

How many romex cables are in the box feeding the Bath Light?

Does the romex feeding the Bath Light have a ground wire in the romex, and is it attached to the fixture?


When you installed new fixtures for the Sink Light & Bath Light - do you recall if a White romex wire was attached to the Black fixture wire of the old fixture(s), which you said you changed so they would be black-to-black and white-to-white? Do you remember if there was any black tape on the white romex wire?


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## Koot (Nov 25, 2007)

You said the following:

"_the other [fixture] is in a closet bathroom controlled by a light switch. *the light switch was 3 wire on it - 2 (Black) on one terminal. the other 2 wires (White) are crimped into 1 wire and attached to the switch*. switch is grounded. replaced switch also installing it the same way upside down not enough wire to reverse it. _"

Are you saying that the closet switch box only has two romex cables coming into the box with a total of two black wires and two white wires?

Are you saying that ALL FOUR of these romex wires (2 black & 2 white) connect to the two terminals of the switch (2 black wires hooked on one switch terminal, and the pigtail from the 2 crimped together white wires hooked on the other switch terminal)?


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## lexmarks567 (Aug 13, 2006)

*What type of fixture is the Sink Light (e.g. fluorescent, incandescent)?*

incandescent

*How many romex cables are in the box feeding the Sink Light?
*

2

*Does the romex feeding the Sink Light have a ground wire in the romex, and is it attached to the fixture?
*
the cable has a ground connected to the box the fixture itself does not have a ground wire.

*Does the romex feeding the Bath Light have a ground wire in the romex, and is it attached to the fixture?*

yes it has a ground connected to a screw and the fixture ground is also connected to the screw.
*
How many romex cables are in the box feeding the Bath Light?
*

2 wires one i assume goes to the light fixture.

*When you installed new fixtures for the Sink Light & Bath Light - do you recall if a White romex wire was attached to the Black fixture wire of the old fixture(s), which you said you changed so they would be black-to-black and white-to-white? Do you remember if there was any black tape on the white romex wire?*

both old fixtures had black to black white to white

*Are you saying that the closet switch box only has two romex cables coming into the box with a total of two black wires and two white wires?* 
*
Are you saying that ALL FOUR of these romex wires (2 black & 2 white) connect to the two terminals of the switch (2 black wires hooked on one switch terminal, and the pigtail from the 2 crimped together white wires hooked on the other switch terminal)?*

correct.


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## Koot (Nov 25, 2007)

Okay - thanks for the answers. It's very difficult to determine what wiring scheme you have...because how it is done is not by code. But we're not going to trouble ourselves with what's already done.

Just to share some thoughts with you... The closet switch is switching a Hot feed (assumed to be one of the two Black wires under the same terminal). I assume the other black wire feeds the Sink Light box, which is always hot and why you need a pullchain. The switched side of the switch is using White wires to feed [switched] power to some load (possibly the Bath Light and some other unknown load). This is puzzling because using a White wire (normally associated with the Neutral) as a Hot (switched) wire is not normal practice and should be avoided, but if used is always identified by black tape. I have no idea where the 2nd White (Hot switched) wire is going. Connecting a Hot (White) wire as a Neutral would definitely cause a C/B to trip. I think I'm correct in thinking that the closet switch turns On and Off the Bath Light, but it's not carrying the light's needed Neutral in the same romex...because there are no Neutral wires in the closet switch box - they are all hot (feeds or switched. Thus, I can only assume the Bath Light fixture is picking up its neutral from another romex in the ceiling box. Also, putting two wires (the two black wires) under one screw terminal is not permitted. This tells me that (at some time) the wiring was modified and not done in a normal fashion or by code. However, going on the basis that all your lights and receptacles once worked - then we should be able to get them working once again - even though the existing wiring job is still not kosher. We just need to isolate where the fault is and we've narrowed it down to three places...and really down to just two places.

Now that we have all six lighting fixtures and all recepatcles controlled by the bottom part of the duplex switch working we now know that our problem (causing the C/B to trip) is in one of three places - the closet switch, the Bath Light, or the Kitchen Light). It is important that we do not alter the original wiring of the closet switch, so we're going to assume our problem is at one of only two places - either the Bath Light or the Sink Light. We are now going to isolate these to two loads and see if we can get one of the two lights working without the C/B tripping. Then we'll get the other one working.

Turn your C/B Off. I want you to disconnect the black and white wires from both the Bath Light and the Sink Light. You can leave the ground wires (bare or green wires) attached if you'd like. Then I want you to reattach the black wire to the upper duplex switch but do not turn the switch On yet. You should be able to turn the C/B back On without it tripping. Let me know.


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## lexmarks567 (Aug 13, 2006)

from both light fixtures or black and white from the switch in the bath and the light fixture in the kitchen itself.


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## Koot (Nov 25, 2007)

lexmarks567 said:


> from both light fixtures or black and white from the switch in the bath and the light fixture in the kitchen itself.


Sorry, I had to run an errand.

Remove the Black and White wires from the two fixtures. (Don't mess with the closet switch for now. It should be wired just the way you found it with no changes.) Reconnect the black wire to the top of the duplex switch, which has made the C/B trip. Hopefully the C/B won't trip with the two light fixtures disconnected.


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## lexmarks567 (Aug 13, 2006)

Ok removed the wires from the bath switch the bath fixture and the kitchen fixture. cb resets and checked voltage ceiling wires for the sink light have voltage as does the wires going to the bath switch.


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## lexmarks567 (Aug 13, 2006)

OK get this i hook the bathroom switch back up turn it on C/B trips


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## Koot (Nov 25, 2007)

lexmarks567 said:


> Ok removed the wires from the bath switch the bath fixture and the kitchen fixture. cb resets and checked voltage ceiling wires for the sink light have voltage as does the wires going to the bath switch.


Ummm...

You removed all the wires from the Closet (Bath) Switch? 
You tested the voltage at the Bath Light and you have 120 volts between the white and black wires?
Is the Closet Switch the same switch as what you are calling the Bath Switch?

You tested the voltage at the Sink Light and you have 120 volts between the white and black wires?


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## Koot (Nov 25, 2007)

lexmarks567 said:


> OK get this i hook the bathroom switch back up turn it on C/B trips


Remove the wires again on the Bath Switch. Is that switch what I'm calling the Closet Switch?


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## lexmarks567 (Aug 13, 2006)

Koot said:


> Remove the wires again on the Bath Switch. Is that switch what I'm calling the Closet Switch?


correct removed the wires C/B turns on and those wires have 120V


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## Koot (Nov 25, 2007)

lexmarks567 said:


> correct removed the wires C/B turns on and those wires have 120V


Okay

I want you to check the voltage between the white wires and ground (at both fixture boxes) and tell me if you have a reading.


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## lexmarks567 (Aug 13, 2006)

neutral to ground nothing


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## Koot (Nov 25, 2007)

lexmarks567 said:


> neutral to ground nothing


Okay

Is the Closet (Bath) Switch wiring unhooked?


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## lexmarks567 (Aug 13, 2006)

Koot said:


> Okay
> 
> Is the Closet (Bath) Switch wiring unhooked?


yes


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## Koot (Nov 25, 2007)

lexmarks567 said:


> yes


Okay

Tell me about the Closet (Bath) Switch wiring:

You said that there was two black wires under the same screw. Are these two black wires separated and set aside?

Is the white pigtail wire (that has two white wires crimped together) set aside?


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## lexmarks567 (Aug 13, 2006)

Koot said:


> Okay
> 
> Tell me about the Closet (Bath) Switch wiring:
> 
> ...


yes everything is set aside and not touching the 2 black wires are by themselves.


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## Koot (Nov 25, 2007)

lexmarks567 said:


> yes everything is set aside and not touching the 2 black wires are by themselves.


Ummm

In the Closet (Bath) Switch box I want you to give me the reading between [each] individual black wire and the white pigtail wire.


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## lexmarks567 (Aug 13, 2006)

netural to black one 120V netural to black two 0V


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## Koot (Nov 25, 2007)

lexmarks567 said:


> netural to black one 120V netural to black two 0V


Okay - remember which black wire is the hot one...

So, right now the Closet (Bath) Switch is disconnected and you have 120 volts at both the Sink Light and Bath Light fixture boxes - correct?


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## lexmarks567 (Aug 13, 2006)

voltage present at the sink light box and at the switch box in the bath.


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## Koot (Nov 25, 2007)

lexmarks567 said:


> voltage present at the sink light box and at the switch box in the bath.


Okay. But no voltage at the Bath Light fixture box - correct?


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## lexmarks567 (Aug 13, 2006)

Koot said:


> Okay. But no voltage at the Bath Light fixture box - correct?


correct cause its gets its power from the switch


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## Koot (Nov 25, 2007)

lexmarks567 said:


> correct cause its gets its power from the switch


Correct you are. I could have sworn you told me that both light fixture boxes had 120 volts with the Closet Switch disconnected, which was confusing me. Guess I was mistaken.

So, now we have the Sink Light abled to be powered up. I want you to hook the Sink Light back up as we should be finished with that. Let's do that and make sure we don't have any surprises. Then we'll take care of the Bath Light. Let me know (after you hook the Sink Light back up) if everything is still working (except the Bath Light).


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## lexmarks567 (Aug 13, 2006)

OK hooked the sink light back up and it now works 1 down 1 to go.


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## Koot (Nov 25, 2007)

lexmarks567 said:


> OK hooked the sink light back up and it now works 1 down 1 to go.


Excellent.

Now I need for you to think real hard and try to remember if you are absolutely sure that both the black wires on the Closet (Bath) Switch were under the same terminal screw. Is there any chance that only black wire was on each screw terminal - in other words - one black wire on the top screw and the other black wire on the bottom screw?

Also, think real hard and try to remember if you are absolutely sure that the white pigtail wire (coming from the two white wires crimped together) was on the switch at all.


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## lexmarks567 (Aug 13, 2006)

im 100% sure though we can experiment.


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## Koot (Nov 25, 2007)

lexmarks567 said:


> im 100% sure though we can experiment.


Having the hot (Supply) wire making contact with the white Neutral wire (when the switch is turned On) would produce a dead short and trip the C/B. Therefore it makes no sense whatsoever. Note: That's why I wanted you to disconnect the white Neutral wires from the light fixtures and test them...I wanted to be sure one or more white wires were not Hot and just not coded (marked) correctly.

Before we move forward - are both duplex switches wired and working correctly for everything they are supposed to be controlling?


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## lexmarks567 (Aug 13, 2006)

yes everything is working correctly


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## Koot (Nov 25, 2007)

lexmarks567 said:


> yes everything is working correctly


Good. Let's do this and hopefully we'll be good-to-go with the Bath Light:

Turn Off the C/B and on the Closet (Bath) Switch connect one black wire to each of the screw terminals - in other words one black wire goes on one terminal screw and the other black wire goes to the other terminal screw. Do not connect the white wire pigtail. Turn the switch Off and turn the C/B On.

Test the voltage at the Bath Light fixture box between the black wire and the white Neutral wire. With the switch Off it should read zero volts. Turn the switch On and re-test and hopefully you will get a reading of 120 Volts. Let me know...


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## lexmarks567 (Aug 13, 2006)

alright we get a reading of 120 with the switch on 0 with it off


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## Koot (Nov 25, 2007)

lexmarks567 said:


> alright we get a reading of 120 with the switch on 0 with it off


Okay - good.

If you have a wirenut or piece of tape, put it on the stripped [bare] wire of the pigtail and put in back into the switch box so it won't come into contact with the terminals of the switch. I'm not concerned if it touches the box itself - I just don't want the Neutral wire to be able to touch the black wires or the terminal screws of the switch.

Turn Off the Closet (Bath) Switch and hook up the Bath Light. With the switch Off the Bath Light should be Off...and with the switch On the Bath Light should be On. Let me know...


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## lexmarks567 (Aug 13, 2006)

re attached everything cut the bare wire off of the pig tail and put electrical tape around the crimp and attached the switch back to the wall. attached the light flipped the breaker back on and everything's working again.


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## Koot (Nov 25, 2007)

lexmarks567 said:


> we attached everything cut the bare wire off of the pig tail and put electrical tape around the crimp and attached the switch back to the wall. attached the light flipped the breaker back on and everything's working again.


Great! So everything is working correctly as it should - right?

Are you happy?


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## lexmarks567 (Aug 13, 2006)

Koot said:


> Great! So everything is working correctly as it should - right?
> 
> Are you happy?


correct everything is now working. yes im happy


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## Koot (Nov 25, 2007)

lexmarks567 said:


> correct everything is now working. yes im happy


Very good. Do you need my address so you can send me the $5,000.00?


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## Koot (Nov 25, 2007)

You may want to replace that new C/B you bought with the old one and return the new one and get your money back. You might want to return the multimeter too. Then your cost to find the problem will be zero.


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## Koot (Nov 25, 2007)

Koot said:


> Do you need my address so you can send me the $5,000.00?


Just kidding of course Lex.  I'm glad I was able to help you.


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## Koot (Nov 25, 2007)

Well, I guess that was a thankless job...literally!


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## lexmarks567 (Aug 13, 2006)

Koot said:


> Well, I guess that was a thankless job...literally!


thanks for helping get it working and being online the whole time to get it working :up:

happy now i had to step out  don't start being a ******* now.


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## Koot (Nov 25, 2007)

lexmarks567 said:


> thanks for helping get it working and being online the whole time to get it working :up:
> 
> happy now i had to step out  don't start being a ******* now.


You are welcome Lex.


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## telecom69 (Oct 12, 2001)

Have to say that I think you have done a wondeful job Koot :up: I have followed this thread from the start daily and am very impressed by the way you meant to solve it,despite working in the dark so to speak and not being able to see the situation for yourself,you stuck to the job so admirably and triumphed in the end,well done Sir :up:


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## Koot (Nov 25, 2007)

telecom69 said:


> Have to say that I think you have done a wondeful job Koot :up: I have followed this thread from the start daily and am very impressed by the way you meant to solve it,despite working in the dark so to speak and not being able to see the situation for yourself,you stuck to the job so admirably and triumphed in the end,well done Sir :up:


Thanks! I wouldn't want to do it all the time. You're right that working in the dark and having to get answers to so many questions made things far more difficult than seeing everything first-hand. I had to use a process where I could gather a healthy amount of information upfront and more as we got deeper into finding the problem. I had to use a certain process of elimination instead of skipping ahead even though toward the end of troubleshooting I felt like I knew what the problem was. Everything worked out well, which makes me happy.

One of the things I was doing while waiting for answers from Lex was watching the ROVs working undersea at the BP oil spill in the Gulf. I am amazed at the level of work they can do in pitch black water at 5,000 feet below sea level using underwater lights and minimal camera angles. The operators of those ROVs must have tremendous patience and expertise. That actually helped me to focus and want to solve Lex's problem even more.

Thanks again for the kind words. I appreciate it!


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## hewee (Oct 26, 2001)

Wow great job you did koot for lex.

Now just what all was done in a simple version of 12 easy steps?  Just kidding


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## JohnWill (Oct 19, 2002)

*Koot*, you have the *patience of Job*.


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## Koot (Nov 25, 2007)

hewee said:


> Wow great job you did koot for lex.
> 
> Now just what all was done in a simple version of 12 easy steps?  Just kidding





JohnWill said:


> *Koot*, you have the *patience of Job*.


Thanks guys!


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## Drabdr (Nov 26, 2007)

Koot, you did well.:up:

I tried to help, but did not have the time to dedicate.




I think it was kind of sweet how close Koot and Lex got. 

I see an exchange of fruitcakes at Christmas.


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## Koot (Nov 25, 2007)

Drabdr said:


> Koot, you did well.:up:
> 
> I tried to help, but did not have the time to dedicate.
> 
> ...


Thanks Drabdr!

I hate fruitcakes...but a Christmas card is definitely in line.


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