# Unable to boot Windows 10 after CHKDSK



## rdkapp (Jan 5, 1999)

The subject drive was a Windows 10 SSD boot drive in a dual boot system (Win 10 and XP). XP is on a separate HDD. I've rarely used XP in the past couple of years, but I needed to restore some backups made with the XP backup program. Due to the time involved, I had to do the restore in 2 sessions. In the 1st session, everything went smoothly, but the 2nd session, in hindsight, was a huge fail. At the beginning of the dual boot into XP, it told me it needed to run CHKDSK on one of my drives (N: drive). I didn't know what drive that was until it was too late. It was the subject Windows 10 Boot Drive! So, CHKDSK ran and the files were scrolling so fast on the screen, I couldn't tell what it was doing. After booting into XP, I was able to restore the files I needed, but ever since, I have been unable to boot into Windows 10, and in fact, I can no longer boot into XP. The computer continuously loops on startup, no matter what I've tried. When I tried to boot into Safe Mode, I received the error that Winload.exe was either missing or corrupted. Since this happened, I've only been able boot with the Windows 10 recovery console or with a rescue boot disc that contains diagnostic programs.

The Windows recovery console (Startup Repair and command prompt _bootrec /rebuildbcd_) was unsuccessful. Then, I ran TestDisk (from the rescue boot disc) and I don't have the knowledge or experience using TestDisk to understand what it is telling me or what the next steps should be, and I have reached out on the TestDisk forum, but it is clear the mods don't respond very quickly. If anyone has experience with TestDisk, I can post the logfile upon request.

I don't know why CHKDSK found it necessary to scan the Windows 10 boot drive, but in doing so, it certainly messed something up. My inexperienced guess would be the Master Boot Record, but that is just a guess. Hopefully, someone here can help me.

Other items of note: 
The Windows folder on the subject drive is missing or has been renamed. Some of the folders/files in the root directory of the subject drive that were modified around the time that CHKDSK ran are:
1. Windows (file - 0 KB)
2. Recovery (folder)
3. found.000 (folder)
4. Config.Msi (folder)
5. PerfLogs (folder)

There are also a couple of folders dated back to Jan 14, 2020 (may be the date of the last major update to Windows?) with the following names:
$WINDOWS.~BT (folder)
$Windows.~WS (folder)

Finally, in the Recovery partition, there is a *Boot* folder modified around the time that CHKDSK ran.

I don't think the drive is going bad, although it is an SSD. I just think CHKDSK just messed it up. If anyone can help me get this drive back to bootable status, I would greatly appreciate it.


----------



## managed (May 24, 2003)

The reason CHKDSK ran and messed things up is because the XP version of CHKDSK doesn't understand the Windows 10 version of the NTFS filesystem so it 'thinks' there are errors and attempts to 'fix' them.

I don't think TestDisk can help in this situation, it's more for repairing the partition table rather than files.

If you don't need XP any more the easiest fix would be a clean install of 10.


----------



## rdkapp (Jan 5, 1999)

Thanks for the reply managed!


managed said:


> The reason CHKDSK ran and messed things up is because the XP version of CHKDSK doesn't understand the Windows 10 version of the NTFS filesystem so it 'thinks' there are errors and attempts to 'fix' them.


I had a feeling it was something like that; however, why did it take so long for CHKDSK to do this? I've had this dual boot system for at least 4 years, and early on, I logged in to XP often (not so much lately). Also, the other night, CHKDSK didn't run on the 1st session, described in my initial paragraph in the original post. Strange behavior. I just wish I would've/could've stopped it.


managed said:


> I don't think TestDisk can help in this situation, it's more for repairing the partition table rather than files.


I know TestDisk also does MBR recovery, but I'm guessing you don't think that is the problem. Is that correct? Also, TestDisk has a companion program called PhotoRec that recovers files. Are you familiar with PhotoRec? Is that something I should try before going for your recommendation below? If not, why?


managed said:


> If you don't need XP any more the easiest fix would be a clean install of 10.


Yeah, I don't think I need XP any more, but that computer was soon to become my secondary computer and I was hoping to keep the dual boot as an option. I've been working on its replacement (the one I'm currently on). Hence, the reason for restoring an XP backup. I'll need to do some thinking on that option. Couldn't I do a clean install of Win 10 with XP as a dual boot option?


----------



## managed (May 24, 2003)

So to be clear there are still files you want to recover on the hard drive ?
What is this 'recovery disk' you have ?

I don't really know what triggered the CHKDSK that messed things up, I mentioned the standard answer but who knows, my guess is XP 'thought' it saw something wrong on the hard drive.

For now try the Windows Startup Repair again a couple of times, I've read it sometimes needs to run a few times before it can fix things.

TestDisk _might _recover a deleted partition and it does have an undelete option for files, we can try that later if the above doesn't work. PhotRec is also an option, it can only recover files though.

You mean a clean install of XP and of 10 ? Yes that's easy enough if you have the install media for both.


----------



## rdkapp (Jan 5, 1999)

Thanks again managed! Sorry for delay in responding, but some storms knocked out my power for most of the day today and I'm just now catching up.


managed said:


> So to be clear there are still files you want to recover on the hard drive ?


Interesting that you asked this, as the short answer is NOW "yes," however, I previously wasn't thinking this, as I had setup Windows 10 on that system to save my data to a separate storage drive (not the XP drive). So, my thinking was all my data was safe on the storage drive. But this is not 100% so, as I discovered after using a trial version of a data recovery program (MiniTool Power Data Recovery). It found quite a few files (MS Office files, pics, and audio files) that I definitely want to recover. I'm thinking TestDisk/PhotoRec or maybe Recuva will handle the recovery.

Anyway, this data recovery program has made it pretty clear to me that CHKDSK did one hell of a job messing up the drive. It found the main partition that is only partially intact, 6 Lost Partitions, and a Lost Files partition(?) (RAW). On top of that, the Windows folder on the drive is basically gone and it's difficult for me to see that any program will be able to put it back together in any sort of working order. I don't mind trying a few more options at your suggestion (note: I'm easily challenged ), but I'm leaning towards a file recovery and then clean install.


managed said:


> What is this 'recovery disk' you have ?


It is the Ultimate Boot CD for Windows. It's an older version, designed for XP, but most of it still works in Win 10. It saved me several times back when XP was my primary OS. It has quite a few good diagnostic tools on it.


managed said:


> I don't really know what triggered the CHKDSK that messed things up, I mentioned the standard answer but who knows, my guess is XP 'thought' it saw something wrong on the hard drive.


I think you are correct. CHKDSK made many of the files on that drive into RAW files. At least that is what the data recovery program is showing them as. It found over 22,000 RAW files, including all the MS Office files, pics, and audio files.


managed said:


> For now try the Windows Startup Repair again a couple of times, I've read it sometimes needs to run a few times before it can fix things.


I will try it a few more times and report back. In the meantime, if you have anything of note in response to this post, I will check periodically during the day, provided we don't have another power outage .


managed said:


> TestDisk _might _recover a deleted partition and it does have an undelete option for files, we can try that later if the above doesn't work. PhotRec is also an option, it can only recover files though.


Or, if you think Recuva would be a better option, I have that too. The only thing is, I'm not sure it will recover the files with their original names, which will create a time consuming exercise after recovery. Please correct me if I am wrong about this.


managed said:


> You mean a clean install of XP and of 10 ? Yes that's easy enough if you have the install media for both.


I do have install media for both, but I'm not sure that I will need to reinstall XP. My inexperienced guess is that the problem(s) with the Win 10 drive is causing the dual boot system to fail to boot into XP, but that's just a guess.


----------



## managed (May 24, 2003)

TestDisk tries to restore the partition table which could lead to getting most files back with their correct filenames so I recommend trying that first.

This guide is the best I have found, ignore the French ! Have a look at it and let me know if you want to try it :-

https://us.informatiweb.net/tutorials/it/windows/testdisk-repair-a-raw-partition.html


----------



## rdkapp (Jan 5, 1999)

managed said:


> TestDisk tries to restore the partition table which could lead to getting most files back with their correct filenames so I recommend trying that first.
> 
> This guide is the best I have found, ignore the French ! Have a look at it and let me know if you want to try it :-
> 
> https://us.informatiweb.net/tutorials/it/windows/testdisk-repair-a-raw-partition.html


Yes, I like it. For the inexperienced, it's better than the online documentation posted by the creator and the moderated forum.

I have some questions before I begin:

1. Should I try TestDisk before trying the Windows Startup Repair a few more times?
2. My main concern is not writing to this Win 10 Drive, as I know that is what can further mess up any file recovery. I don't think it does, but can you confirm that TestDisk will not write to the Drive when it is trying to restore the partitions?
3. I am attaching a screenshot from Disk Management that shows that in the Windows environment, the drives are not in RAW format. The subject drive is Disk 0. It is showing as Healthy with an NTFS File System, which I find odd. This is different from the guide you linked to. Is that a concern?
4. I am re-running the data recovery program and will post a screenshot of the results for your reference.


----------



## managed (May 24, 2003)

1. Try Startup repair a couple of times first.
2. I thought you wanted files from the XP drive ? If so and you find any files you can safely copy them to the Windows 10 drive, we can try that later if TestDisk (TD) can't repair the partition table.
TD won't write anything to the drive unless you use it's Write command, which you should not do until we have looked at the partitions it finds.
Ignore the drive details at that guide, yours will be different, but the guide is good at showing what to do in general
3. It seems you forgot to attach the screenshot !
This is a good way to do it :- https://forums.techguy.org/help/screenshot/
I'll comment when I've seen it.
4. Ok


----------



## rdkapp (Jan 5, 1999)

managed said:


> 3. It seems you forgot to attach the screenshot !
> This is a good way to do it :- https://forums.techguy.org/help/screenshot/
> I'll comment when I've seen it.


Yes, I did, but I edited and attached it a minute later; however, you had probably already looked at it before the edit. Here it is:


----------



## rdkapp (Jan 5, 1999)

And here's the screenshot of the Data Recovery program results. I believe all the files I want to recover are in the More Lost Files (RAW) section. And there are more that could not fit on the screen.


----------



## managed (May 24, 2003)

I still can't see a screenshot (SS) in your post #7 but it doesn't matter now.

So Disk 0 has XP on it and Disk 1 has 10 ?

Try to recover something in that RAW folder in your last SS.
I believe you can recover 1GB of data without paying.


----------



## rdkapp (Jan 5, 1999)

I realize I still need to reply to your #'s 1 & 2 in Post #8. I will do that after this.


managed said:


> I still can't see a screenshot (SS) in your post #7 but it doesn't matter now.


Yes, I removed it when I re-posted it.


managed said:


> So Disk 0 has XP on it and Disk 1 has 10 ?


No, this is not that computer. Disk 0 is from the troubled computer and has Win 10 that is all corrupted. I removed the drive and put it in this computer. Disk 1 has Win 10 on it, but it is working. XP is on a drive still in the non-working computer.


managed said:


> Try to recover something in that RAW folder in your last SS.
> I believe you can recover 1GB of data without paying.


Will do. I will try this before I do anything else and report back.


----------



## rdkapp (Jan 5, 1999)

Going back to your post #8


managed said:


> 1. Try Startup repair a couple of times first.


Okay, will do.


managed said:


> 2. I thought you wanted files from the XP drive ? If so and you find any files you can safely copy them to the Windows 10 drive, we can try that later if TestDisk (TD) can't repair the partition table.


I don't think the XP drive is a problem. However, I can take it out and plug it into this machine and see if it is showing any issues. I think (and correct me if I am wrong) that the dual boot computer won't boot into XP because of the issues with the Win 10 drive. It's constantly looking for the boot files of the Win 10 drive and when it can't find them, it reboots. Could that be the case?


managed said:


> TD won't write anything to the drive unless you use it's Write command, which you should not do until we have looked at the partitions it finds.
> Ignore the drive details at that guide, yours will be different, but the guide is good at showing what to do in general


Okay, thanks. That is what I thought.

One more question:
Is it okay to run TestDisk on my working computer (this one)? It is a much shorter and simpler process than having to boot up with the UBCD Rescue disk everytime. I know I just need to make sure I run the TestDisk diagnostics on the correct drive.


----------



## managed (May 24, 2003)

Disk0 is the messed up W10 from the 'first' computer installed as an internal drive in the 'other' computer and Disk1 is the working W10 on the 'other' computer. Is that correct ?

Yes you can run TestDisk on the 'other' computer'.


----------



## rdkapp (Jan 5, 1999)

managed said:


> Try to recover something in that RAW folder in your last SS.
> I believe you can recover 1GB of data without paying.
> 
> 
> ...


I tried recovering around 450 MB and then for grins, I tried 480 KB, but it wouldn't let me do either. It says I need a license. Apparently, they don't allow free recovery of any amount of data.


managed said:


> Disk0 is the messed up W10 from the 'first' computer installed as an internal drive in the 'other' computer and Disk1 is the working W10 on the 'other' computer. Is that correct ?
> 
> Yes you can run TestDisk on the 'other' computer'.


Yes, that is correct. And thank you for the last comment.


----------



## managed (May 24, 2003)

I read you can get 1GB for free but it must have been old information.

I'm logging off now, I'll be back around 7pm BST
In the meantime give TestDisk a go but don't use the Write command yet.


----------



## rdkapp (Jan 5, 1999)

managed said:


> I read you can get 1GB for free but it must have been old information.


I thought I had read that too, but I've looked at a few different programs, so I wasn't sure it was this one. However, Recuva is free and recovers, but you can't really tell what you're recovering and it may not save with the original file name.


managed said:


> I'm logging off now, I'll be back around 7pm BST
> In the meantime give TestDisk a go but don't use the Write command yet.


Will do. I surely appreciate all your help.


----------



## rdkapp (Jan 5, 1999)

managed said:


> Try to recover something in that RAW folder in your last SS.
> I believe you can recover 1GB of data without paying.
> 
> 
> ...


Apparently, I had a trial version of the Pro Version of the software. Who knew?  Anyway, I downloaded the "Free Version" of the software and it allowed me to recover about 876 MB. I guess the question is, will it let me recover another set of files up to 1 GB? I will try it and report back.


----------



## rdkapp (Jan 5, 1999)

rdkapp said:


> Apparently, I had a trial version of the Pro Version of the software. Who knew?  Anyway, I downloaded the "Free Version" of the software and it allowed me to recover about 876 MB. I guess the question is, will it let me recover another set of files up to 1 GB? I will try it and report back.


Nope, it's limited to 1 GB total. So, I recovered some more, up to 1 GB total.


----------



## rdkapp (Jan 5, 1999)

Okay, so I took the troubled drive back to its home and ran Startup Repair from the Win 10 install disk 3x to no avail. Each time it "diagnoses" the computer for a short period and then shows the following:

```
Startup Repair couldn't repair your PC. Press "Advanced options" to try other options to repair your PC or "Shut Down" to turn off your PC.

Log file: D:\found.000\dir0000.chk\System32\Logfiles\Srt\SrtTrail.txt
```
I then exited Startup Repair and went to a Command Prompt and was able to navigate to the folder where the log file is and on the way there, the dir000.chk folder looks like the Windows folder and its contents, or at least a good portion of it. I don't know if this is a good sign or not; just reporting it. At the same time, I am a bit concerned that Startup Repair was writing to the drive. Hopefully, since it was txt file and a log file, both of which are small, it didn't write over anything important.

While in Command Prompt, I tried again to repair/rebuild the Master Boot Record, Boot Sector, and the Boot Configuration Data by running Bootrec /Fixmbr, Bootrec /Fixboot, and Bootrec /Rebuildbcd. The results were as follows:

Fixmbr - successful
Fixboot - "Access Denied"
Rebuildbcd - found 0 Windows installations

Since it couldn't find a Windows installation, I would guess the successful Fixmbr is meaningless, but I certainly don't know.

I'm calling it a night. I will take the troubled drive back to the working computer tomorrow and run TestDisk (following the suggested guide) on it and see what it sees and will report back. In the meantime, if anything I've reported brings any insight, please post back. Thanks again.


----------



## rdkapp (Jan 5, 1999)

I'm running TestDisk on the Drive and after Analyze and Quick Search, it differs from the guide with this window:










I don't know what this means but I will hit Enter to continue.










Hitting Enter to continue per the guide.










Unlike the guide, TestDisk found 2 partitions, but to my inexperienced eyes, based on the Start and End numbers, it looks like there could be missing partition(s). So, will run Deeper Search.

After Deeper Search, received this window again:










I don't know what this means but I will hit Enter to continue.










Okay, I'm a bit stuck here. It doesn't coincide with the guide. The Start and End numbers don't make sense. I'm guessing that I should scroll down to the 6th listed Partition (green - Primary bootable) and hit "P" to list files.










I don't think the above (6th listed Partition) is the Primary bootable partition. I will list files on the other partitions and report the TestDisk findings:

1st listed Partition: "Can't open filesystem. Filesystem seems damaged."
2nd listed Partition: see screenshot below










3rd listed Partition: "Can't open filesystem. Filesystem seems damaged."
4th listed Partition: see screenshot below










5th listed Partition: "Can't open filesystem. Filesystem seems damaged."

Based on what I see in the Windows environment, I think the 2nd Partition is the Recovery partition before the drive got messed up by CHKDSK. It is currently showing as Drive E: in Windows. I think the 4th Partition is where the Windows folder is. See the found.000 folder, which contains the dir000.chk folder that I saw last night in Command Prompt when attempting the Startup Repair.

So, I'm not sure where to go from here and would like your help. If I had to guess after studying the guide a bit more, I think I need to (1) mark the 6th listed partition, using the left and right arrow keys as Primary ("P") instead of bootable (*), (2) mark the 4th listed partition as bootable (*) instead of Deleted ("D"), and (3) mark the 2nd listed partition as Primary ("P") instead of Deleted ("D"). I'm not sure what to do with the 6th listed Partition as it also looks like a Recovery Partition. After that, I think that is when the Write command comes in to play. But, I will wait for confirmation before doing anything else.


----------



## managed (May 24, 2003)

I don't think you should change anything yet.

The 4th partition is the Windows OS partition. You can copy files from it to another drive using the commands at the bottom of the screenshot.

The guide is just an example, useful to show what the commands do, it's not the same HDD as yours so naturally the results are different.


----------



## rdkapp (Jan 5, 1999)

managed said:


> I don't think you should change anything yet.
> 
> The 4th partition is the Windows OS partition. You can copy files from it to another drive using the commands at the bottom of the screenshot.


Questions:
1. So, I'm copying the files as a backup in case anything goes wrong. Is that correct?
2. Should I copy all files or just files that I want to recover (e.g. in the Users folder)?
3. Also, after selecting the folders/files to copy, I then hit <C> to copy all files. It defaults to the folder that contains TestDisk. Depending on your answer to #2, I may need to hook up another HDD. If so, will I be able to select a different drive?



managed said:


> The guide is just an example, useful to show what the commands do, it's not the same HDD as yours so naturally the results are different.


I gotcha. I just get a little concerned when I see something different than the guide.


----------



## managed (May 24, 2003)

I think it will 'see' another drive, you may have to restart TestDisk after you connect it if it's a Usb external drive.
It might be a good idea to make a Folder on that drive called something like Recovered and save everything into it.

Just copy the files you really need if possible but if there are a lot you can copy the folder they are in.
You can use the Ctrl key to select multiple single files and Shift to select a group of contiguous files, just like in File Explorer.

I think you get the option to change the save location after pressing C or c, using the left arrow a few times will show a list of connected drives.


----------



## managed (May 24, 2003)

I edited my previous post, please read it again.


----------



## rdkapp (Jan 5, 1999)

managed said:


> Just copy the files you really need if possible but if there are a lot you can copy the folder they are in.


I am going through the folders trying to locate some of the files found and recovered by the free Data Recovery program used yesterday. I found some, but others are not so easy to find and it's time consuming. I'm wondering if this would be easier to just copy most of the drive. Any thoughts?


----------



## managed (May 24, 2003)

Do whatever works best for you.


----------



## rdkapp (Jan 5, 1999)

Copying done! Very time consuming and there really wasn't that much. I only copied about 2 GB. Ready for next steps.

Side note: all but one of the MS Office Documents recovered by the free Data Recovery Program yesterday were either blank, corrupted, or protected by IRM (Information Rights Management) or WDAG (Windows Defender Application Guard). Since I never saw any MS Office Documents in the TestDisk recovery process, I'm guessing these files were either badly corrupted or nothing I needed. I'm fairly confident most, if not all of my MS Office Document data is on another drive safe and sound.


----------



## Macboatmaster (Jan 15, 2010)

There are, as far as I can see two distinct possibilities of recovering from this mix-up
I cannot assure you that either will work, but it is likely that one of them will

When you have your data from TestDisk, if you return the drive in question which I understand is drive0 on the screenshot to the computer where it came from, in its original port connection
and disconnect the XP drive, then it is possible that after three power on and power off cycles you will automatically go to windows recovery environment.

*This cannot be achieved by booting from the Windows 10 install disc.*
although you can do that and enter cmd prompt etc., you will not be able to use the options required

On reaching the recovery environment, which you achieve by
Power up and wait for the blue windows screen with the spinning circle, when you see that press and hold power button to shut down, after shutdown power back up and do the same thing again, power up for the 3rd time and you should get repair screen.

You should then hopefully get to the screen
Windows did not start correctly
You click advanced options

If then you go to that screen you should see
system restore
IF 10 has a restore point and restore is NOT turned on automatically on 10 - you may strike lucky.

If there is none or not one that can take you back then back on the advanced screen you should see go back to previous build

As you have BT Windows and WS Windows, it is likely that one of them is from the previous build of 10
NOT from your original 7 or whatever it was upgrade to 10

If again you are lucky, you may find that you go back to the previous 10 before the last version update.

CAUTION - no One can guarantee what is going to happen until you try it and therefore do NOT proceed until at least you have what you need from your vital personal data.


----------



## rdkapp (Jan 5, 1999)

Thank you for the reply Macboatmaster! See my responses and questions below.


Macboatmaster said:


> When you have your data from TestDisk, if you return the drive in question which I understand is drive0 on the screenshot to the computer where it came from, in its original port connection
> and disconnect the XP drive, then it is possible that after three power on and power off cycles you will automatically go to windows recovery environment.


I have recovered all the data that I wanted and could see from TestDisk. Every time I return the troubled drive back to its original home I do disconnect all other storage drives (including the XP drive) from the computer. So, we're good there.



Macboatmaster said:


> *This cannot be achieved by booting from the Windows 10 install disc.*
> although you can do that and enter cmd prompt etc., you will not be able to use the options required
> 
> . . .
> ...


I'm certainly not taking issue with your instructions, but I'm pretty sure booting from the install disk into the Recovery console had a Restore Option. I haven't tried it, and I will try your suggestion. It actually sounds promising, as I do remember a Windows update in January and January 14, 2020 is the modified date on both the BT and WS Windows folders. I will try and report back.


----------



## Macboatmaster (Jan 15, 2010)

I apologise to you
There are so many options of getting to the recovery environment
eg boot from installation usb/disc
from within windows from lock screen shift and restart
from hard reboot etc.
that one gets confused

YOU are correct
It is reset and startup settings that are not available from booting from install usb etc
The *Reset this PC* option in "Troubleshoot" and *Startup Settings* option in "Advanced options" will not be available using boot from install media or recovery drive.

Sorry about that, but it will not effect the outcome


----------



## Macboatmaster (Jan 15, 2010)

Further to the first of my posts if you go for system restore - be aware that from the recovery environment it cannot be undone - in others words you cannot go back to as is. - not that it makes any difference in your case, as I refer to - as is - in a working windows system.
If it fails to recover to a RP you will be back as is.

So if for instance you were restoring to a point from within windows and it did not solve your problem you can go back as is and then choose another restore point.
YOU CANNOT do that in the recovery envirnment RP

Also if you are offered the chance to restore do not forget to scan for effected programs etc.
A window should then open to tell you what changes will be made.
As you know of course anything from the RP will not be there.
However your personal data docs pics etc are NOT effected by system restore, so they will be OK

Sorry again about my slight error
Any questions please ask.


----------



## Macboatmaster (Jan 15, 2010)

rdkapp
I am signing off now
It is 0211 in UK
Having seen that your BT and WS Windows are from January
I doubt you will be going back to previous build of 10
*Go back to the previous version of Windows 10*. This will keep your personal files, but it'll remove apps and drivers installed after the upgrade, as well as any changes you made to settings. In most cases, you'll have 10 days to go back. 

So as I see the job you are left with a RP if you have one
OR you are left with a RESET
*Keep files etc - in essence a refresh*
see this please
https://www.tenforums.com/tutorials/4090-refresh-windows-10-a.html

Goodnight and good luck with it


----------



## rdkapp (Jan 5, 1999)

Hi Macboatmaster. I appreciate your reply. What happened to *managed*? Did he pass this off to you? I'm just trying to understand the dynamics, to the extent there are any.


Macboatmaster said:


> I apologise to you
> 
> It is reset and startup settings that are not available from booting from install usb etc
> The *Reset this PC* option in "Troubleshoot" and *Startup Settings* option in "Advanced options" will not be available using boot from install media or recovery drive.
> ...


First, no apologies are necessary. I was only familiar with the install disk "Advanced Options" because I've done it quite a bit over the last few days. Unless you have a photographic memory, I wouldn't expect you, or anyone else on this board, to know all the options off the top of your head.

Anyway, just to confirm in my own mind, the options available on the Win 10 install disk, I booted with the install disk. The "Advanced Options" available from the install disk appear in the following image:










I took no actions here, as in the past, Startup Repair and the options I tried in Command Prompt were unsuccessful, and the "bootrec" options I have tried appear to write to the drive; however, I would note that there is a System Restore option. Could I use that to restore as you described in a later post (see below)?

I exited out of the install disk Recovery console and per your instructions, tried to get into the Recovery console off the corrupted drive.


Macboatmaster said:


> On reaching the recovery environment, which you achieve by
> Power up and wait for the blue windows screen with the spinning circle, when you see that press and hold power button to shut down, after shutdown power back up and do the same thing again, power up for the 3rd time and you should get repair screen.


The blue windows screen with the spinning circle never appears. I don't think the computer can find the boot files. It just loops back to the motherboard splash screen and then BIOS looking for the boot files (hard drive and optical drives). When it doesn't find them, it starts the process all over again. Can the power button shut down be done before the blue windows screen? I doubt it, but thought I'd ask.



Macboatmaster said:


> Further to the first of my posts if you go for system restore - be aware that from the recovery environment it cannot be undone - in others words you cannot go back to as is. - not that it makes any difference in your case, as I refer to - as is - in a working windows system.
> If it fails to recover to a RP you will be back as is.


This may be moot since I can't reach the recovery console on the subject drive (however, see System Restore option off the install disk in the image above), but if this System Restore cannot be undone, does that mean I am abandoning TestDisk? I thought *managed* was about to guide me through the process of repairing the partition table.



Macboatmaster said:


> Also if you are offered the chance to restore do not forget to scan for effected programs etc.
> A window should then open to tell you what changes will be made.
> As you know of course anything from the RP will not be there.
> However your personal data docs pics etc are NOT effected by system restore, so they will be OK


I don't understand "scan for effected programs etc." What is that and please explain in a little more detail what it does?

I do understand that anything after the Restore Point will not be there; however, I don't think it matters too much. I've got the data I found and needed off the drive. As described in an earlier post, the OS on this drive was setup to default save data to a separate storage HDD (and not the XP drive), so most of my data is safe on another drive. There were just a few things on the corrupted drive and I believe I got them. Either I got them, or they were too corrupted to find.



Macboatmaster said:


> Having seen that your BT and WS Windows are from January
> I doubt you will be going back to previous build of 10


Why do you say this? Please explain.



Macboatmaster said:


> *Go back to the previous version of Windows 10*. This will keep your personal files, but it'll remove apps and drivers installed after the upgrade, as well as any changes you made to settings. In most cases, you'll have 10 days to go back.
> 
> So as I see the job you are left with a RP if you have one
> OR you are left with a RESET
> ...


I guess I'm having trouble understanding the difference between going back to a previous build of Win 10 (with the BT and WS folders) and going "back to the previous version of Windows 10." Please explain. And then, how does a RESET come into play? I am confused.

If it helps you to give me further advice, I'm no longer concerned with my data on the drive, as I described above. I would just like to get the drive back in bootable condition, if possible. I'm also not too concerned about any programs/apps that I added after any Restore Point, as I feel pretty certain I can reload them as needed. The computer that the subject drive came from will, from this point forward, become my secondary computer. I had built a new computer in February (the one I am typing on right now) and was planning to move my office into another room with the newly built rig, but due to the pandemic and shelter-in-place order, I wasn't able to completely move in there, as we had family staying with us. Now the room is vacant and I have moved. Hope this helps.

Finally, I know there is a lot of information above, but if there is anything you have questions about or want to further discuss, please quote it, so I know what you are referencing. Thank you so much and I look forward to your next reply.


----------



## Macboatmaster (Jan 15, 2010)

Cheers
I will answer with points to try and make it easier to read
1.


rdkapp said:


> I appreciate your reply. What happened to *managed*? Did he pass this off to you? I'm just trying to understand the dynamics, to the extent there are any.


No my good colleague, managed, did not - pass it off to me.
We often both contribute to a topic and when I saw your post 28


rdkapp said:


> Ready for next step


and saw you on the topic, just before midnight last night, I came in to help you with the attempted recovery to Windows.

2. Power cycle to recovery - option 6 on the link below
https://www.tenforums.com/tutorials/2294-boot-advanced-startup-options-windows-10-a.html#option6
You cannot do it from the BIOS POST screen you have to power off at the power button after that screen and at the first screen that shows 10 is attempting to load. Even if that is NOT the blue screen with the spinning circle.

3. Your query regarding system restore
IF you are in Windows, but all is not OK, hangs, crashes, whatever and you go for a system restore point, then from within windows, if that system restore point does not solve the problem, you can go BACK to before the system restore point.
Please see this
https://www.tenforums.com/tutorials/4588-system-restore-windows-10-a.html

NOTE if you do a system restore from the recovery option, - ie: NOT from within windows - it cannot be undone.
as shown on the link above. on the warning in pink colour.

The reason being that system restore from within windows, automatically creates a restore point, at the time you decide to restore to an earlier point. So if your chosen point does not solve your problems, you can go back as was, using the restore point that was created by the system.
IN RECOVERY mode a restore point is NOT created of course, so you cannot go back.
HOWEVER as I said it will either restore or you will be back to as you are NOW.
Also as I said, you may not even have restore points, as RESTORE in recovery is shown - whether you haver them or not, as the recovery does not know IF you have RP`s or NOT

Complicated I realise, but I cannot find an easier way to explain it.

4. Going back to previous build


rdkapp said:


> I guess I'm having trouble understanding the difference between going back to a previous build of Win 10 (with the BT and WS folders) and going "back to the previous version of Windows 10."


The procedure uses the data in those BT and WS Windows
However the important point is 
*Go back to the previous version of Windows 10*. This will keep your personal files, but it'll remove apps and drivers installed after the upgrade, as well as any changes you made to settings. In most cases, you'll have 10 days to go back.

So even although those folders are there and apparently dated correctly, I doubt the data in them, will still be there to allow you to go back.
as the normal go back limit is 10 days.
https://www.tenforums.com/tutorials/111315-set-number-days-can-go-back-previous-version-windows.html

*NOTE please the first paragraph - the option is available for 10 days.

5. *RESET - either without keeping any data or keeping personal files etc.

https://www.tenforums.com/tutorials/4090-refresh-windows-10-a.html
see the option ONE
warning on refresh for step two in yellow please

So *if you boot the computer* from the installation media you cannot then use RESET/REFRESH to keep all your data.

6. Finally 
IMHO I doubt that attempts to rebuild the Boot configuration Data, which is when corrupted one cause of the system not finding the boot device, will succeed in your case.
However you may wish to wait, for my good colleague *managed *(allan) in case he has some different ideas of how to attempt recovery to 10.


rdkapp said:


> I thought *managed* was about to guide me through the process of repairing the partition table.


Good luck with it


----------



## managed (May 24, 2003)

I have been lurking in the background 

Since you copied everything you need now then by all means try what *Macboatmaster* suggested above.

Later you can try to repair the partition table with TestDisk if you wish, it's a long-shot though so I would leave it until you have tried everything else first.


----------



## rdkapp (Jan 5, 1999)

Hi Macboatmaster. Thanks for all the replies.


Macboatmaster said:


> Cheers
> I will answer with points to try and make it easier to read
> 1.
> 
> ...


Thanks for that explanation. I was curious as I thought TestDisk was going to be the method used to try and recover the drive. Now, after *managed*'s reply and you stepping in to help, it is clear the both of you think a Windows repair is the best option.



Macboatmaster said:


> 2. Power cycle to recovery - option 6 on the link below
> https://www.tenforums.com/tutorials/2294-boot-advanced-startup-options-windows-10-a.html#option6
> You cannot do it from the BIOS POST screen you have to power off at the power button after that screen and at the first screen that shows 10 is attempting to load. Even if that is NOT the blue screen with the spinning circle.


I tried this again, where I power on the computer and right after the BIOS looks for the boot files on the hard drive and then optical drives, I power off using the power button. I did this 3 times and then let it go farther, but it never gets to the Recovery console. It just goes back to the BIOS with a POST beep. There is a very short period of time between the BIOS trying to boot from the optical drives and POST beep indicating it is starting over, but each time I was able to power it off before the POST beep. After 4 attempts (of 3 power cycles each), I gave up. I don't think this is an option, unless there is something I'm not doing right.

I have responses to the rest of your latest post, but since they may be moot now that I can't boot into the Recovery console off the drive, I will save them for after you reply to the above. Thanks again and I look forward to your next response.


----------



## Macboatmaster (Jan 15, 2010)

1. What is the boot device shown in BIOS/UEFI firmware
Check that it is the drive with 10 on it
It appears that 10 was installed legacy mode, the boot data would be on the 10 drive for that and the XP drive. but 10 would more than likely be the first boot option with XP being the second on the dual boot 
If you look at your screenshot of disk management you will see that on the computer, that the drive was put in to test it, the windows 10 on that computer is installed with UEFI and that is why you have the EFI partition.

2. If you cannot get to recovery screen by power cycling, as described in detail in the link I sent you for that subject, then go in via install media for 10
NOT the other boot disk you have for Ultimate boot CD
Boot from the install media and then try system restore

Post back when you have got that far please.


----------



## rdkapp (Jan 5, 1999)

Macboatmaster said:


> 1. What is the boot device shown in BIOS/UEFI firmware
> Check that it is the drive with 10 on it


See images of BIOS settings below. Other than 2 DVD/CD drives, it is the only drive currently connected to the computer and the BIOS sees it (Samsung 850 EVO 250 GB). The DVD/CD drives contain no discs, however, should I disconnect the DVD/CD drives?





















Macboatmaster said:


> It appears that 10 was installed legacy mode, the boot data would be on the 10 drive for that and the XP drive. but 10 would more than likely be the first boot option with XP being the second on the dual boot
> If you look at your screenshot of disk management you will see that on the computer, that the drive was put in to test it, the windows 10 on that computer is installed with UEFI and that is why you have the EFI partition.


I'm not sure what "legacy mode" is, but below is the history of the subject computer.

The computer was originally built in 2005 with XP Pro as the OS. The motherboard failed due to bad capacitors in 2010 and I replaced the motherboard and continued with XP Pro as the OS. At some point, I bought an SSD and Windows 7 and created a dual boot system between Win 7 and XP. Then, I upgraded from Win 7 to Win 10 and have accepted all updates to Win 10 since then. After upgrade to Win 10, the computer did default boot to Win 10 and not to an OS selection screen. The only way I could boot to XP after the upgrade to Win 10 was to hit F12 during boot and then F9 for boot options. So yes, I do believe it was always booting 1st to Win 10 and I had to disrupt that process to get to XP.



Macboatmaster said:


> 2. If you cannot get to recovery screen by power cycling, as described in detail in the link I sent you for that subject, then go in via install media for 10
> NOT the other boot disk you have for Ultimate boot CD
> Boot from the install media and then try system restore
> 
> Post back when you have got that far please.


Okay, I'm there.








Should I go forward from here?


----------



## Macboatmaster (Jan 15, 2010)

Just before you proceed to that and to make absolutely certain
I take it that the Samsung Evo is the drive on which 10 is installed.

Looking at the sequence of events on your last post I doubt if this system restore is going to work, but it is at this time the best of the options available to you, so presuming the answer to my question regarding the Samsung is YES
Please try the restore.

If it works I will be overjoyed for you, but I personally doubt it.
Nevertheless as I said try it there is *nothing *to lose


----------



## rdkapp (Jan 5, 1999)

Macboatmaster said:


> Just before you proceed to that and to make absolutely certain
> I take it that the Samsung Evo is the drive on which 10 is installed.
> 
> Looking at the sequence of events on your last post I doubt if this system restore is going to work, but it is at this time the best of the options available to you, so presuming the answer to my question regarding the Samsung is YES
> ...


The Samsung 850 EVO 250 GB SSD is the drive on which the corrupted Win 10 is installed. It is the only drive connected to that computer. I will proceed and report back.


----------



## rdkapp (Jan 5, 1999)

rdkapp said:


> I will proceed and report back.


That didn't take long . . . 









Could the System protection link take me anywhere?


----------



## Macboatmaster (Jan 15, 2010)

cheers
when you post please type in box that appears AFTER my post
if you reply by clicking reply on my post, you quote back all I have said.
I will wait to hear from you


----------



## rdkapp (Jan 5, 1999)

See above your last post.


----------



## Macboatmaster (Jan 15, 2010)

That was fast I never even got chance to type it
I mentioned about that on my first post, of course I do appreciate that this is all a bit new to you.



> If then you go to that screen you should see
> system restore
> IF 10 has a restore point *and restore is NOT turned on automatically on 10* - you may strike lucky.


so as you can see there are no restore points, and NO it will not help, as you cannot create one until you are back in on 10.

As I said it offers system restore even if there are no restore points as the recovery procedure cannot KNOW if there are restore points



> Also as I said, you may not even have restore points, as RESTORE in recovery is shown - whether you haver them or not, as the recovery does not know IF you have RP`s or NOT


However - you are doing well, as this, as I said is all a bit new to you.

YOUR OPTIONS
1. Go for a reset. YOU will I expect lose everything, but hopefully most of it can be reinstalled, apps etc.
A reset on booting from the install media will not offer the option to keep all files.

2. try with my colleague* managed he may be able to rebuild the *partitions for you and the BCD

3. Cmd prompt on recovery from the install media - chkdsk on C and system file check etc via the X prompt -

4. CLEAN install of 10.


----------



## rdkapp (Jan 5, 1999)

Macboatmaster said:


> so as you can see there are no restore points, and NO it will not help, as you cannot create one until you are back in on 10.


Does this also look at the Windows BT and Windows WS folders, or is there another way to get to them?

Just curious . . . could it be that there are restore points, but they are not accessible due to the corrupted state of the drive, or could it be they are on the data HDD?

And, if they are on the data HDD (which I doubt), is there any way to access them?



Macboatmaster said:


> YOUR OPTIONS
> 1. Go for a reset. YOU will I expect lose everything, but hopefully most of it can be reinstalled, apps etc.
> A reset on booting from the install media will not offer the option to keep all files.
> 
> ...


Are you listing these options in order of preference?

I don't think #3 will work, as I think I already tried sfc and chkdsk (via XP) is what caused the problem in the 1st place. However, it seems #2 and #3, if they work, would put me back to before the corruption occurred, correct? I would think they should be the options to try first, no?

Regarding the reset option (#1). How do you get to the reset option from the install media? I don't remember that as an option, unless it is contained within one of the other Advanced options (i.e. Command Prompt, System Image Recovery, or Uninstall Updates).


----------



## Macboatmaster (Jan 15, 2010)

rdkapp said:


> I don't think #3 will work, as I think I already tried sfc and chkdsk (via XP) is what caused the problem in the 1st place. However, it seems #2 and #3, if they work, would put me back to before the corruption occurred, correct? I would think they should be the options to try first, no?


I realise that, but the chkdsk and system file check or DISM in the recovery cmd prompt on 10 are totally different from when you tried to run those on XP but on the drive for 10.

RE restore points - NO it looks ONLY for restore points and as I have said - the recovery CANNOT know if you have them, so it offers the option and 
if you had them it would more than likely have found them. However as I mentioned System restore is NOT turned on by default on 10.
RP`s do not include the mentioned folders.

I have signed off as it is 0300 and I am in the UK

Not online today - so maybe my good colleague Allan can step back in.


----------



## rdkapp (Jan 5, 1999)

Macboatmaster said:


> I realise that, but the chkdsk and system file check or DISM in the recovery cmd prompt on 10 are totally different from when you tried to run those on XP but on the drive for 10.


For clarification, I tried running the bootrec options, SFC, and DISM through the Command Prompt of Recovery console on the Win 10 install disk, not via XP. Only CHKDSK ran in XP environment, but not at my request, and that is what ultimately corrupted the drive. I did not try CHKDSK from the Win 10 install disk.


Macboatmaster said:


> RE restore points - NO it looks ONLY for restore points and as I have said - the recovery CANNOT know if you have them, so it offers the option and
> if you had them it would more than likely have found them. However as I mentioned System restore is NOT turned on by default on 10.


That's interesting, as I would've thought System Restore would have been turned on. However, I can't tell you that I turned it on. For the sake of curiosity, I checked the computer I am currently on, where Windows 10 was installed in February 2020 and System Restore is on by default as I did not turn it on. Is it now turned on by default?


Macboatmaster said:


> RP`s do not include the mentioned folders.


Is there any way to restore from those folders, or is that part of the Reset process?


Macboatmaster said:


> I have signed off as it is 0300 and I am in the UK
> 
> Not online today - so maybe my good colleague Allan can step back in.


Okay, thanks so much for all your help and enjoy your day.


----------



## Macboatmaster (Jan 15, 2010)

1, System restore
I have no idea if it is now enabled by default in the latest 10
However I can assure you that it was not in recent editions
I do not know when it returned to being on by default
Please see here
https://www.techradar.com/how-to/how-to-use-system-restore-in-windows-10

I am not in any manner, trying to be other than helpful, but it really is, in respect of your problem, a matter of some unimportance, as it could not find a restore point on your system, so whether it was actually on or off, at this stage, does not as I said really matter.
Additionally when you dual boot, unless you set, special arrangements, if the dual boot uses the one common BCD then booting into the older operating system, deletes the restore points on the other system.
I have a triple boot here 10, 7 and XP - 10 and 7 are on one drive and XP is on another separate drive

I posted this article, on this site as you can see back in 2013

https://forums.techguy.org/threads/restore-points-on-dual-boot.1085981/#post-8588856
when I had 8, 7 and XP.
However that is all for information only really, as it is, as mentioned not really of great relevance to you at this time.

2. The drive letter often changes in the recovery prompt and the recovery cmd prompt lettered X is in fact a ramdrive.
So if you do not run the cmds for sfc and dism correctly - you will not in effect be running it on the OS partition. Additionally to run it in recovery is a special cmd, quite separate from running it online from within Windows

3. As I said, not online until very late
Just having a break from a job, and then restarting, still got a few hours work to do.

Good luck with it


----------



## managed (May 24, 2003)

Just for information I recently installed the latest 1909 version of 10 onto a tablet and System Restore was Off by default.

@rdcapp - So what do you want to do now ?


----------



## rdkapp (Jan 5, 1999)

Macboatmaster said:


> 1, System restore
> I have no idea if it is now enabled by default in the latest 10
> However I can assure you that it was not in recent editions
> I do not know when it returned to being on by default


Thanks for the link. I find it odd that Microsoft would include a System Restore option in an OS to recover your computer after an unfortunate event and disable it by default, but that's a discussion for another day.


Macboatmaster said:


> I am not in any manner, trying to be other than helpful, but it really is, in respect of your problem, a matter of some unimportance, as it could not find a restore point on your system, so whether it was actually on or off, at this stage, does not as I said really matter.


I have not thought at any moment that you are not being helpful. Questioning things is just my nature, and I don't intend for it to be negative towards or reflect negatively on you. I apologize if anything I've typed offended you. My inquisitive nature along with my knowledge (albeit limited with regard to Win 10 - I was more knowledgeable with XP) leads to these questions. I will be more mindful of this going forward.


Macboatmaster said:


> Additionally when you dual boot, unless you set, special arrangements, if the dual boot uses the one common BCD then booting into the older operating system, deletes the restore points on the other system.
> 
> I posted this article, on this site as you can see back in 2013
> 
> ...


Since I plan on keeping/re-establishing a dual boot (10 and XP) on the subject system, and plan on enabling System Restore, I am interested in these special arrangements. I assume they are contained in your 2013 post, which I read; however, that involves a 7 & 8 dual boot arrangement. Would the same registry edit apply in XP, or would it be different?


Macboatmaster said:


> 2. The drive letter often changes in the recovery prompt and the recovery cmd prompt lettered X is in fact a ramdrive.
> So if you do not run the cmds for sfc and dism correctly - you will not in effect be running it on the OS partition. Additionally to run it in recovery is a special cmd, quite separate from running it online from within Windows


I was following a "How to" that I found and am fairly sure the commands were run on the corrupted drive and not the X: ramdrive, but I am game for trying them again with instructions from you or managed.


----------



## rdkapp (Jan 5, 1999)

managed said:


> @rdcapp - So what do you want to do now ?


I want to proceed to try and recover the drive in a bootable state and if that fails, re-install Win 10 in a dual boot environment with XP. I would love to try TestDisk, probably because years ago, it successfully recovered a Fat32 hard drive that was corrupted. I didn't fully understand what I was doing at the time, but it successfully returned a RAW drive back into a Fat32 drive where I could see everything on it.

Perhaps my mission statement (question) below can give you an idea of where to go from here:

*Knowing that my personal data and the programs/apps that are on the drive are not really a concern anymore, what are my options, ordered from best to worst, to successfully restore the drive to bootable status?*


----------



## managed (May 24, 2003)

I think the best option is a clean install of 10 now. TestDisk probably won't work because the drive is too messed up.

Make sure you install 10 onto the correct drive, the one that does not have XP on it.
Choose the Custom install option and Delete all the partitions on that drive so it all shows as Unallocated during the start of the install.


----------



## Macboatmaster (Jan 15, 2010)

rdkapp said:


> I apologize if anything I've typed offended you


No, nothing did , in anyway whatsoever.
You may have found some of explanations useful for the future.
I also work on the other site from which I provided you with links.

Re the RP on 10 with XP, as on the link I sent 7 and XP apply the same way as 10 and XP

As I have said before - good luck with it.
Not of benefit to you now, but could advice for the future
Create a complete system image on an external drive, then with this and a regular backup of your personal data, restore to as is - is simplicity via
either settings - recovery if you can get into windows or lock screen if you cannot or Macrium boot disk if the image is on Macrium software on the external or 10 recovery drive, or 10 install disc.


----------



## rdkapp (Jan 5, 1999)

managed said:


> I think the best option is a clean install of 10 now. TestDisk probably won't work because the drive is too messed up.


Aww, I had a feeling you were going to say that. 

Could it harm anything, at this point, to try TestDisk? Like I said early on in this thread (Post #5 to be exact), I'm easily challenged. If it won't harm anything, I'm going to try it. I've got time and would like to learn a bit more about TestDisk. If you're willing to help me, I'll follow your lead. If you're not willing, I will understand that too, as I am not following your given advice. Just let me know if you think it could be harmful and whether you'd be willing to guide me through the process. I'll wait to hear back.

Side note: my post on the TestDisk/Photo Rec forum 6 days ago remains unanswered to date. You and 
*Macboatmaster* are on the best forum that I have found on the internet.


----------



## rdkapp (Jan 5, 1999)

Macboatmaster said:


> No, nothing did , in anyway whatsoever.
> You may have found some of explanations useful for the future.
> I also work on the other site from which I provided you with links.


Good to hear and yes, I'm sure I will refer back here in the future.
Which other site? techradar or tenforums?


Macboatmaster said:


> Re the RP on 10 with XP, as on the link I sent 7 and XP apply the same way as 10 and XP


Are you referring to the *special arrangements* for a dual boot? I'm a little confused.  I thought your registry edit was for a Win 7 & 8 dual boot. Please clarify.


Macboatmaster said:


> As I have said before - good luck with it.
> Not of benefit to you now, but could advice for the future
> Create a complete system image on an external drive, then with this and a regular backup of your personal data, restore to as is - is simplicity via
> either settings - recovery if you can get into windows or lock screen if you cannot or Macrium boot disk if the image is on Macrium software on the external or 10 recovery drive, or 10 install disc.


I know that I have done this in the past, but it was so long ago (perhaps back when I upgraded from Win 7 to 10) that I don't think it would be much different than a clean install of 10. But yes, I need to do that on a regular basis. How often do you re-image?


----------



## managed (May 24, 2003)

Ok then, run TestDisk as before until you get to the screen with 'Deeper search' highlighted and use right arrow key to highlight 'Write' and then press Enter, if it asks you to confirm do so.
That will write a new partition table onto the drive. Now see if you can boot to that drive.


----------



## rdkapp (Jan 5, 1999)

managed said:


> Ok then, run TestDisk as before until you get to the screen with 'Deeper search' highlighted and use right arrow key to highlight 'Write' and then press Enter, if it asks you to confirm do so.
> That will write a new partition table onto the drive. Now see if you can boot to that drive.


Okay, I just want to be sure I understand. You are saying NOT to do the "Deeper Search" where it found the missing partitions (including the 4th partition that contains the Windows OS) and to cursor to the right to highlight "Write" and select that. Is that correct?


----------



## managed (May 24, 2003)

I can't do this on my computer it would take forever for a Deeper search to run so I'm using guides.
Let's do a deeper search and see what we can get from it.

Run TestDisk as before and when you get to Deeper Search run it.
Select each partition in turn and press P to check if files show up, if they do use the left/right arrow keys to change the type from D(eleted) to L(ogical) but if no files are found leave it as D.
Leave the last partition as it is
select Continue and press Enter
You should see a Write option, select it and press Enter.

If you don't see Write post a screenshot please showing your newest TestDisk window.


----------



## managed (May 24, 2003)

I'm logging off now, will check back here around 7pm BST.


----------



## rdkapp (Jan 5, 1999)

Thank you managed! You certainly are up late. I appreciate your help and patience.


managed said:


> Let's do a deeper search and see what we can get from it.
> 
> Run TestDisk as before and when you get to Deeper Search run it.
> Select each partition in turn and press P to check if files show up, if they do use the left/right arrow keys to change the type from D(eleted) to L(ogical) but if no files are found leave it as D.
> ...


Referring back to Post #21 of this thread, where I originally did the Deeper Search and posted the images, here is the result from the Deeper Search:









Selecting "P" on the 1st, 3rd, & 5th listed partitions resulted in: "Can't open filesystem. Filesystem seems damaged."

The 2nd listed partition appears to be the Recovery partition,
We agreed that the 4th listed partition was the Windows OS partition.
The following was the result of selecting "P" on the 6th partition:










I will run TestDisk again, but if the same results appear (which I expect), according to your instructions, I will do the following:

1. Leave the 1st, 3rd, & 5th listed partitions marked with "D."
2. I am changing the 2nd and 4th listed partitions to "L."
3. I am leaving the 6th and last listed partition as is, with "*," which indicates "primary bootable."

*Question: Why wouldn't I mark the 4th listed partition (Windows OS) with "P" or "*"?*

If you could confirm the above (as well as answer my question), I will proceed.


managed said:


> If you don't see Write post a screenshot please showing your newest TestDisk window.


Will do.


----------



## managed (May 24, 2003)

Ok, I have reread the thread and now I think you should :-

leave 1 3 and 5 as D
change 2 to ***
change 4 and 6 to *P*

Those correspond with 2 being the boot partition, 4 the OS and 6 is Recovery, the files in them look right and the start and end values make sense too.

So make those changes and then select Continue and post the new TestDisk screenshot please


----------



## rdkapp (Jan 5, 1999)

managed said:


> Ok, I have reread the thread and now I think you should :-
> 
> leave 1 3 and 5 as D
> change 2 to ***
> ...


Okay, thanks. Here's the screenshot after making those changes and <Continue>:


----------



## managed (May 24, 2003)

Looks good, select Write and press Enter, if it asks for confirmation give it and then if it asks you to restart the computer do so.
Then open Disk Management and post a screenshot please, with the window expanded to show all the details.


----------



## rdkapp (Jan 5, 1999)

managed said:


> Looks good, select Write and if it asks for confirmation give it and then if it asks you restart the computer do so.
> Then open Disk Management and post a screenshot please, with the window expanded to show all the details.


Okay, done. I just wanted to be sure you remember that I am running TestDisk and am currently on the working Win10 computer. Here's the screenshot of Disk Management:


----------



## managed (May 24, 2003)

Looks good. So shall we try putting the drive back into the other PC and see if it boots to Windows ? Am I right in thinking it would boot up with just that one drive connected before ?

Anyhow try it as the only connected drive first. I doubt it will boot yet but give it a try.


----------



## rdkapp (Jan 5, 1999)

managed said:


> Looks good. So shall we try putting the drive back into the other PC and see if it boots to Windows ? Am I right in thinking it would boot up with just that one drive connected before ?


Sure, will do. I don't know if I ever tried booting with only that drive connected (before corruption), but I don't know why it wouldn't. Like I said earlier in the thread, when I would power the computer on, it would boot natively into Win 10. If I wanted to boot into XP, I had to hit F12 during boot up and then F9 to select an OS. Thus, it seems it would still boot into Win 10 if the XP drive was disconnected. *I will try and report back.*

These may not mean anything since the drive is connected as a storage drive, but some things I noted in the Disk Management screenshot:

1. E:, F:, and G: are all listed as Primary Partitions, but only F: and G: were marked "P" in TestDisk.
2. I marked E: as "*" (Primary bootable), but on this computer's boot drive, C: is marked with "Boot." If we're being consistent with the drive on this computer, wouldn't we have marked F: with "*" (Primary bootable)?
3. F: is where the Windows OS is; however E: and G: are assigned letters (unlike the boot drive on this computer)
4. E: is listed as "Active"(?)
5. G: does not reflect "Recovery."

Please let me know if any of the above have any meaning in this recovery attempt.


----------



## managed (May 24, 2003)

Ok, try it as the only connected drive then.

1. The E partition was made Primary & Bootable when marked with the * in TestDisk (TD). Disk Management (DM) just shows it as Primary though, that's normal.
2. That's because Micro$oft (M$) use Boot to mean the OS drive, unlike everyone else !
3. Yes they have letters, that's ok, normally they don't have letters but it doesn't matter.
4. E is shown as Active which is M$ for 'Bootable'.
5. Recovery is just a name given to the partition, it's absence doesn't matter.

So none of the above are incorrect as far as the drive working is concerned. It is possible it won't boot for other reasons though, so let's see what happens first.


----------



## rdkapp (Jan 5, 1999)

Thank you for the responses to my concerns.

I connected the drive by itself and tried to boot. It was still looping back to the BIOS as before.

I then re-connected the XP drive and tried to boot, but there was no change.

Then, I tried to reboot with both drives connected and selected F12, where I could select which drive to boot from. When I selected the Win 10 drive, it looped again. When I selected the XP drive, it took me to a Recovery screen (which was normal as to the last several times I booted into XP) where I could select F9 to select an OS. I did not proceed any further, as I didn't want CHKDSK to run as it did before. I wasn't sure I could stop CHKDSK, so I didn't want to take that chance.

I am back at the working computer with the corrupted drive connected.


----------



## Macboatmaster (Jan 15, 2010)

Unless my colleague managed has any other ideas, I suggest you download this
https://sourceforge.net/p/boot-repair-cd/home/Home/
make a bootable usb using RUFUS
Disconnect that XP drive both power and data
and then follow this
https://www.makeuseof.com/tag/fix-mbr-windows-guide/

under the heading 
4. Fix MBR Issues in Windows Using Boot Repair Disk

However I stress that this is ONLY if my colleague has no suggestions regarding further testdisk to write MBR from there.


----------



## rdkapp (Jan 5, 1999)

I've been thinking since my last post and my inexperienced mind is focusing on the fact that there is no Windows folder on that drive and most, if not all, of the contents of the Windows folder on that drive is contained in the *found.000* folder and in the *dir0000.chk* subfolder.


----------



## rdkapp (Jan 5, 1999)

Macboatmaster said:


> Unless my colleague managed has any other ideas, I suggest you download this
> https://sourceforge.net/p/boot-repair-cd/home/Home/
> make a bootable usb using RUFUS
> Disconnect that XP drive both power and data
> ...


Thank you Macboatmaster.

I will await managed's return and further advice, but in the meantime, can I make a bootable CD/DVD with RUFUS instead of a USB drive? I don't have a spare blank USB drive laying around and will have to move/delete data to make one available. I know the instructions say, "_(do not burn it on CD/DVD if your PC came with Windows8/10)_," but this computer was self-built initially with XP as the OS and is set to boot from the CD/DVD drives. I can make a USB thumb drive available, but it will be easier to use a CD/DVD. Just let me know.


----------



## Macboatmaster (Jan 15, 2010)

I have no idea - that is the honest answer. You would have to try it.
I would not expect it to work

I am also a little unsure of the lack of the windows folder you refer to in post 71.
There is certainly the data use on the 231.9 partition that suggests it is windows, as the free space is 178.97
You will know probably if that caters for Windows as the OS and what else was on the partition.
If you mean it is not named Windows - please refer back to your screenshot.

I suspect myself that the names you list are the previously discussed BT and WS folders.

I have no further suggestions and will now leave the topic - to my good colleague *managed

Good luck with it.*


----------



## managed (May 24, 2003)

I would go ahead and make the Usb stick as *Macboatmaster* advised, it is worth a try.

I can't see a Windows folder either, if the above doesn't work I think it's time to reinstall 10.


----------



## rdkapp (Jan 5, 1999)

Macboatmaster said:


> I am also a little unsure of the lack of the windows folder you refer to in post 71.
> There is certainly the data use on the 231.9 partition that suggests it is windows, as the free space is 178.97
> You will know probably if that caters for Windows as the OS and what else was on the partition.
> If you mean it is not named Windows - please refer back to your screenshot.
> ...


Here is a screenshot to show what I am talking about:










There is no Windows folder, and I know by virtue of TestDisk, that most, if not all, of the contents of what used to be the Windows folder is in the *found.000* folder under a subfolder named *dir0000.chk*. I cannot access the found.000 folder in Windows, but I can look at it in TestDisk, as shown in the following screenshot:










The above screenshot does not show all of the files and folders in the directory *found.000\dir0000.chk*, but as you can see, the System32 subfolder is there and all of the other folders appear to be part of what should be a Windows folder. If there is anyway to rename the *found.000\dir0000.chk*, I wonder if that would work?


----------



## managed (May 24, 2003)

Sorry for slow reply I was away from my computer.
You should be able to rename it in Windows/File Explorer
rename dir0000.chk to Windows
then you will have to move the whole new 'Windows' folder into the root of the C drive.
Worth a try.


----------



## rdkapp (Jan 5, 1999)

managed said:


> You should be able to rename it in Windows/File Explorer
> rename dir0000.chk to Windows
> then you will have to move the whole new 'Windows' folder into the root of the C drive.
> Worth a try.


I can't access it in Windows/File Explorer. See the screen shot:










I can, however, see it in command prompt.










The thing is, I know you can rename a folder, but I'm not sure of the command syntax. Also, should I try renaming the folder before trying the Fix MBR Issues in Windows Using the RUFUS Boot Repair Disk recommended by Macboatmaster? I think I should.


----------



## rdkapp (Jan 5, 1999)

I took it a step further and ran a DIR command to see what it would show.










It is interesting that it is only showing dir0000.chk and not any of the other folders shown in TestDisk:










There are only a couple of folders and a few dll files inside each of the other chk folders. Then, what is the file00000000.chk file? Just curious, if you know?


----------



## managed (May 24, 2003)

I've no idea what the file00000000.chk file is, hopefully it doesn't really matter.

You need to rename the dir0000.chk folder to Windows
I think this will do it, you need to be in the found.000 folder as in your first screenshot, then do

```
ren dir0000.chk Windows
```
If that worked try this to copy the Windows folder into the root of the C drive

```
XCOPY /E Windows C:\
```
it's safer to do a Copy, if it works you can delete the original Windows folder later, if it fails you still have the original.
There could be problems with permissions with both the above commands, we won't know until you try them.


----------



## Macboatmaster (Jan 15, 2010)

I know I said I had left the topic as I had nothing more that I could think of to offer, but may I point out that it appears to have only 136192 bytes.
Therefore of course 136*.*192 KB if that is correct there is NOTHING there.


----------



## rdkapp (Jan 5, 1999)

Renaming the *dir0000.chk* folder to Windows was successful. It shows up in TestDisk. Copying stalled part way through. See screenshot:










I can scroll up this window and see that it copied some (maybe all?) of the files in that folder and then began copying the subfolders alphabetically and then stopped when Access was denied after the *Containers* folder. Do you know of any way to get past this point, or pick up where it left off?

Also, I don't see a Windows folder in TestDisk or in Windows/File Explorer, so the copy may have failed in total. I wonder if there a way to do this in TestDisk?


----------



## rdkapp (Jan 5, 1999)

Macboatmaster said:


> I know I said I had left the topic as I had nothing more that I could think of to offer, but may I point out that it appears to have only 136192 bytes.
> Therefore of course 136*.*192 KB if that is correct there is NOTHING there.


Yes, and I noted the file date of 18-Mar-2019 which is over a year prior the occurrence that corrupted the drive.


----------



## managed (May 24, 2003)

Try this command to copy

```
XCOPY /E /H /Y Windows C:\
```
I'm logging off now, back around 7pm BST.


----------



## rdkapp (Jan 5, 1999)

managed said:


> Try this command to copy
> 
> ```
> XCOPY /E /H /Y Windows C:\
> ```


With these switches, it copied a lot more files as reflected in the screen shot (2642 files vs. 265 before), but it hung again at the same point, creating the directory - C:\CSC\v2.0.6. Again, I don't see a Windows folder in TestDisk or in Windows/File Explorer, so the copy may have failed in total. Is there a way to do this in TestDisk? Or, see the link to a workaround below the screen shot.










See the following link for a possible workaround:
https://support.microsoft.com/en-us...de-caching-csc-folder-to-a-new-location-in-wi

I would have tried that workaround, except for the fact that I'm on the working Win 10 computer with the corrupted drive connected as a storage drive, so as to step 2 of the guide, I wasn't sure whether to (i) edit the registry on the working Win 10 (this computer), or (ii) if there is a way to edit the registry on the corrupted Win 10 drive (which I doubt), or (iii) if I should move the drive back to its home computer and use command prompt via UBCD or some other rescue boot device.

Side note: despite the guide saying it is applicable to Win 10, it appears migwiz.exe is no longer available in Win 10 and I could not locate it in the System 32 folder of either Win 10 OS; however, that is only the means of transferring the CSC folder. If the registry edit can remove the permissions or other protections of copying it, why couldn't XCOPY do the job thereafter?


----------



## managed (May 24, 2003)

It's time to admit defeat and do a clean install of 10.


----------



## rdkapp (Jan 5, 1999)

managed said:


> It's time to admit defeat and do a clean install of 10.


I'm just now checking in after a busy day.

I never admit defeat; I merely "change course." 

All kidding aside, I truly appreciate all of your's and macboatmaster's help up to this point. I am going to try the workaround that I posted above. If that doesn't work or take me farther toward my goal, I will do the clean install of Win 10. I feel like I can't really mess anything up worse at this point, so why not try. I might learn something.

Are there any pointers you can give me to do a clean install in a dual boot environment with XP? Since I cannot boot into XP currently, I'm wondering if I'm going to run into problems dual booting after a clean install of Win 10. Any advice or resources you can point me to will be appreciated.


----------



## managed (May 24, 2003)

Connect both drives then install 10 onto the drive that doesn't have XP on it, it will 'see' the XP OS and set up a dual-boot menu.
When you install choose the Custom option then delete all the partitions on the HDD when it asks where you want to install 10, so the whole drive shows as Unallocated space. Windows 10 will set up the partitions it needs automatically after that.


----------



## managed (May 24, 2003)

*Macboatmaster* has advised to run CHKDSK /R on that 'Windows10' drive which will repair any bad sectors, because file00000000.chk can be created after bad sectors are found, this is not a serious problem as most HDD have bad sectors that are marked as such and a spare sector is then used instead.

So when you start the install of 10 at the first screen press Shift + F10 to get a command prompt window then

type C: and press Enter
type CHKDSK /R and press Enter
If it asks to force a dismount type Y and press Enter
CHKDSK will scan the partition, this could take a long time for the OS partition.

repeat steps 2 and 3 above using D: at step 1, then E: F: etc until it says 'The device is not ready'

You can close the command window now and continue the install.
Don't forget to delete all the partitions until there is only Unallocated space.


----------



## rdkapp (Jan 5, 1999)

managed said:


> *Macboatmaster* has advised to run CHKDSK /R on that 'Windows10' drive which will repair any bad sectors, because file00000000.chk can be created after bad sectors are found, this is not a serious problem as most HDD have bad sectors that are marked as such and a spare sector is then used instead.


Thank you *managed* and *Macboatmaster*. I will follow the instructions given in the previous post, however, I remember doing some sort of disk scan before posting here (maybe using UBCD) and it reporting back with no errors or bad sectors, which is why I initially thought the drive was okay and not failing. See the last sentence of post #1:


rdkapp said:


> I don't think the drive is going bad, although it is an SSD. I just think CHKDSK just messed it up. If anyone can help me get this drive back to bootable status, I would greatly appreciate it.


Nevertheless, I will run it again before a clean install of Win 10.

As an update, I took the corrupted drive back to its home system, booted in to the Command prompt using the Win 10 install disk and tried the workaround to copy the CSC folder, and it was successful. Nevertheless, about 2/3s the way through the XCOPY process, it hit another, but different snag on a file in the _servicing_ folder. This time, however, it did copy everything up to that point to a Windows folder in the root directory (in this case, D: ). Since I was so far through it, I decided to skip the _servicing_ folder for the time being and attack the remaining sub-folders a different way, by copying the contents of each remaining sub-folder separately in the _found.000/Windows_ folder. A little more time consuming, but it's coming along and I only have about 10 more sub-folders to go. I will then focus on that _servicing_ folder and try to copy everything in it over. If anything, I'm learning about XCOPY and all the switches available.

Stay tuned.


----------



## managed (May 24, 2003)

I edited my previous post just now so please re-read it in case you missed the editing.


----------



## rdkapp (Jan 5, 1999)

Update:

Due to what I understand is a XCOPY limitation of being unable to transfer files that have file paths greater than 255 characters, I had to use ROBOCOPY to transfer files in a couple of sub-folders of the Windows folder. After accomplishing that, I tried to boot and found some success. Initially, it went through 2 screens with the blue Win 10 logo. One that said "Repairing your PC" and another that said "Diagnosing your PC."










Then, it went to the Recovery console where it gave me this screen:










It appears that it is looking for the winload.exe file in a location that no longer exists. Remember that we renamed the dir0000.chk directory to Windows before I copied everything over. So, there is a boot file (batch?) somewhere that is referring the system to that location. If I could find that file and modify it to point to the correct location, I think I may have more, if not complete, success.

To further investigate, I pressed F9 in the above screenshot and it led to the following:










Remember that I only had the corrupted drive connected. The XP drive was not connected, so naturally, XP would not appear. When I chose the 1st Win 10 option, it proceeded to loop back into the BIOS. When I chose the 2nd and 3rd options, both brought me to the Windows login screen where I logged in, but the desktop never came up. The screen was black and a mouse pointer that I could move around.

I take all of the above as a positive and am now wondering if some of the recommendations earlier in this thread may take me further toward or even complete this recovery. If either *managed* or *Macboatmaster* have any ideas , I would love to hear them. Meanwhile, I will continue investigating and researching this for a complete solution.


----------



## rdkapp (Jan 5, 1999)

rdkapp said:


> It appears that it is looking for the winload.exe file in a location that no longer exists. Remember that we renamed the dir0000.chk directory to Windows before I copied everything over. So, there is a boot file (batch?) somewhere that is referring the system to that location. If I could find that file and modify it to point to the correct location, I think I may have more, if not complete, success.


Perhaps it is BOOTMGR which is on the boot partition on this disk (the E: drive when attached to my working (this) computer). I wonder if the bootrec commands, or perhaps the MBR fix via the Boot Repair Disk (RUFUS) referenced earlier in the thread by *Macboatmaster* would do the trick? Or, maybe TestDisk, now that I've got the Windows folder in the proper place?


----------



## managed (May 24, 2003)

IMO you are wasting your time, even if you get into Windows there could be other problems later on with missing files etc.

By now you could have re-installed Windows and got everything how you want it several times.

If you _really_ want to continue try putting a copy of winload.exe into the location on that screen picture, if the folders don't exist make them.


----------



## rdkapp (Jan 5, 1999)

managed said:


> IMO you are wasting your time, even if you get into Windows there could be other problems later on with missing files etc.
> 
> By now you could have re-installed Windows and got everything how you want it several times.


If the subject computer was my only computer, I would agree with you. However, as you know, it is not my only computer. I see this as a learning experience as well as a challenge. If I can learn something and by chance, help someone else that may run into the same problem down the road, then it is worth it to me.

This past weekend through Monday was a holiday weekend here in the U.S., and I didn't spend the entire weekend working on this corrupt drive. I spent a few hours and learned a few things along the way, and feel that I did make some progress toward my goal.



managed said:


> If you _really_ want to continue try putting a copy of winload.exe into the location on that screen picture, if the folders don't exist make them.


I've tried this. Since _winload.exe_ was already in the _System32_ folder, all I had to do was rename the Windows folder in _found.000_ to _dir0000.chk_, so the resulting path is _found.000\dir0000.chk\System32_. It booted up to the Windows login screen, but once I logged in, I only got a blank screen with a mouse pointer.

By the way, TestDisk didn't work either. There are now 7 partitions, with partitions 1, 3, 5, & 6 having damaged filesystems.

Thinking that the remaining problems are with the Boot partition (the E: drive on the working computer), I looked closer at the Boot partition and noticed a _BCD.old_ file with a date/time around the time that the drive became corrupted. The current BCD file was dated 05/25/20, which is likely the last time I ran _bootrec /rebuildbcd_. I backed up the Boot partition and then renamed _BCD.old_ to _BCD_. Then, I tried to boot and it ran Win10 chkdsk (this was a new occurrence) and said it was repairing the drive. I had my fingers crossed 🤞. However, just like before, it booted up to the Windows login screen and I logged in, but again, it took me to a blank screen with the mouse pointer.

Finally, I ran *Macboatmaster's* recommendation in Post #70 (Fix MBR Issues in Windows Using Boot Repair Disk). Although both the basic and advanced options said it fixed the MBR, booting remained the same. It boots to the Windows login screen and when I login, all I see is a blank screen and mouse pointer.

*@Macboatmaster* - I don't know if you wanted to see the logs posted to ubuntu.com for the above. If so, I can provide the links. Just let me know either way.

Since Win 10 is now booting to the login screen without error, and accepts my login, but then only gives me a blank screen with mouse pointer, my inexperienced guess is that the problem now lies somewhere in the GUI. In light of the above and unless *Macboatmaster* wants to read the logs from the Fix MBR attempts, I am ready to "change course"  and do a clean install of Win 10. I'll wait to hear back before I begin.


----------



## managed (May 24, 2003)

Yes ok, treating it as a learning experience is fair enough.

I don't know what you did but something has changed the partition table if there are 7 now.

There were 3 perfectly fine partitions in TestDisk in post #64 and they were also fine in the screenshot of Disk Management in your post #65 !

At the blank screen with mouse pointer press Ctrl+Alt+Del and if you get a Task Manager option click it and do File > Run new task, then type EXPLORER and press Enter and you _might_ get a desktop.


----------



## rdkapp (Jan 5, 1999)

managed said:


> I don't know what you did but something has changed the partition table if there are 7 now.
> 
> There were 3 perfectly fine partitions in TestDisk in post #64 and they were also fine in the screenshot of Disk Management in your post #65 !


Yes, post #64 was a screenshot right after writing the adjustments made. I believe if I re-ran TestDisk and performed a Deeper Search right after that, I think it would've shown 6 or 7 partitions. I've sort of lost faith in TestDisk as a result. The changes don't seem to stick, at least on this corrupted drive. Also, my experience tells me that TestDisk partitions don't always correspond with the partitions shown in Disk Management. If my beliefs above are wrong, then the only thing I did before the next time I ran a Deeper Search in TestDisk and found 7 partitions, was rename and copy the Windows folder from _found.000/dir0000.chk_ to the root, using XCOPY and ROBOCOPY.


managed said:


> At the blank screen with mouse pointer press Ctrl+Alt+Del and if you get a Task Manager option click it and do File > Run new task, then type EXPLORER and press Enter and you _might_ get a desktop.


I do get a Task Manager option, as I've done that every time on the blank screen, in order to shut down or restart and I've actually opened the Task Manager just to see what was running. There were apps running, including ones that run on bootup. Didn't think about running EXPLORER. If I get the desktop, where to from there?


----------



## managed (May 24, 2003)

TD worked perfectly before and fixed the partition table, it's main job. You had the correct 3 partitions in the end, as shown in DM.

It looks for deleted partitions so finding more after a deeper search makes sense but unless you used it's Write command again you will still have those 3 correct partitions.

The problems after that were caused by renamed folders and messed up files, TD can't possibly fix those although as you now know it can find files and let you copy them.

If you get to the Desktop let me know.
From there you should do a clean install of 10, you can't rely on what you have now even if it does seem to work, which I doubt.


----------



## rdkapp (Jan 5, 1999)

managed said:


> It looks for deleted partitions so finding more after a deeper search makes sense but unless you used it's Write command again you will still have those 3 correct partitions.


Okay, that makes sense. If a Deeper Search also shows deleted partitions, then that is what I'm seeing. If I remember correctly, 6 of the 7 were marked with "D." The last one was marked "*" for bootable. I was thinking that if I deleted the 1, 3, & 5 partitions, why would they continue to show up? It made me wonder why it wasn't showing the other 2 I marked with "P." I guess it may be that I just don't fully understand TestDisk, which is entirely possible and why I initially came here.

The above is for informational and learning experience only and doesn't really apply going forward. I will run EXPLORER from Task Manager and report back.


----------



## rdkapp (Jan 5, 1999)

rdkapp said:


> I will run EXPLORER from Task Manager and report back.


Okay, more encouraging (I think) news. I tried to run EXPLORER from the Task Manager and I received an error message that the system couldn't find the Desktop on the D: drive. The D: drive is the drive that I setup when I originally installed Win 7 to be the storage drive for all of my data. That is where my User folder lives. For example, if I saved to the Document, Music, Pictures, or Videos folders, it automatically saved to the D: drive, as that is where those folders lived. That is why there wasn't much data on the corrupted drive. The D: drive has been disconnected for awhile.

I would've re-connected the D: drive and tried again, however, I was concerned about the drive letters. Remember that the Boot partition on the corrupt drive was assigned the drive letter C: and the Windows partition was assigned the drive letter D:. I was afraid that if I re-connected the data drive, the drive letters (the 2 D: drives) would conflict. Plus, isn't it searching for the Desktop on the very drive where it doesn't exist (i.e. the Windows partition drive - D: ), which may be the cause of the error I received in the 1st place?

Should I remove the drive letter from the Boot partition, and reassign the Windows partition with C: and then retry?


----------



## managed (May 24, 2003)

I asked *Macboatmaster* about those logs and he said he didn't need to see them.

Drive letters can change, it's best to go by the Disk numbers and partition positions in Disk Management,
for example Disk 1 Partition 2 etc they stay the same.
Incidentally Micro$oft numbers Disks starting with 0 (zero) but Partitions starting with 1 !

Any drive with an Active partition can boot, not sure what happens if 2 drives are marked Active.

I would connect that drive and see what happens, Windows should assign a new letter to it, it certainly won't get C and you can always remove it again if something odd happens.


----------



## rdkapp (Jan 5, 1999)

managed said:


> Drive letters can change, it's best to go by the Disk numbers and partition positions in Disk Management,
> for example Disk 1 Partition 2 etc they stay the same.
> 
> I would connect that drive and see what happens, Windows should assign a new letter to it, it certainly won't get C and you can always remove it again if something odd happens.


Windows did assign it a new letter - F: and Windows kept looking for the Desktop on D:, which was the Windows partition. The Recovery partition was E:. So, I ran Disk Management from Task Manager and removed the drive letter from the Boot partition (which was C: ) and rebooted. The Windows partition then became C: and the Recovery partition became D: and the data drive became E:. I tried booting but got the same result. So, I then ran Disk Management from Task Manager and removed the drive letter from the Recovery partition and changed the drive letter of the data drive to D: and rebooted. Sadly, it did not boot to the Desktop. I ran Task Manager and tried to run Explorer and nothing happened. I even browsed to Explorer in the _Windows/SysWOW64_ folder (it wasn't in the Windows folder) and selected and tried to run it but nothing happened.

So, I'm ready to change course and clean install Win 10. I just have 2 questions before I begin, and I believe you have already answered the 1st one earlier in this thread:

How do I ensure the dual boot environment with Win 10 and XP?
Will the Win 10 OS install recognize and properly set up references to the data drive that already exists and holds all my Documents, Music, Pictures, and Videos, as well as other data?
Any information on the 2nd question will be greatly appreciated.


----------



## managed (May 24, 2003)

Do you already have a Windows 10 install USB or DVD ?

If not go here and get the Media Creation Tool and make one :- https://www.microsoft.com/en-gb/sof...s10?d2784474-fdb0-4e9d-9e47-5e88c0e053ec=True

With Both drives connected install 10 by booting to that USB or DVD, choose the Custom Option, delete all the partitions on the drive until it is all shown as unallocated space, then continue the install, 10 will make the partitions it needs automatically.

You will have to set up the locations of your files after the install.


----------



## rdkapp (Jan 5, 1999)

managed said:


> Do you already have a Windows 10 install USB or DVD ?


Yes, I already have Win 10 install media.


managed said:


> With Both drives connected install 10 by booting to that USB or DVD, choose the Custom Option, delete all the partitions on the drive until it is all shown as unallocated space, then continue the install, 10 will make the partitions it needs automatically.
> 
> You will have to set up the locations of your files after the install.


For purposes of clarity and understanding, I will use the following drive descriptions:

a. Corrupted Drive - the Win 10 drive that we have been working on in this thread.​b. XP Drive - the drive that contains the XP OS that dual booted with the Win 10 drive before corruption.​c. Data Drive - the drive that contains most of the data and some programs used with Win 10 (not XP).​
So, if I understand correctly:

With (i) the Corrupted Drive, (ii) the XP Drive, and (iii) the Data Drive (D: ) all connected, I should boot the computer with the Win 10 install disc, and choose the Custom Option.
I should delete all partitions on the Corrupted Drive until it is all shown as unallocated space and then continue the install on the Corrupted Drive.
*The location of the data and programs on the Data Drive will be set up after install.*
I want to focus on #3, because I want to make sure this is correct, as I don't want to fill up my boot drive with data and I know what it took to modify this after the fact in XP. I had an XP machine that ran out of space on its boot drive and I wanted to move the data to a storage drive. I had to modify the Registry and it was a long process that I'm not sure was ever 100% successful. I initially set up the Data Drive when I installed Win 7 on this machine and I have a vague recollection of doing it during installation. Has this changed in Win 10? If I wanted to do it on this computer (working Win 10), how would I do it?


----------



## Macboatmaster (Jan 15, 2010)

rdkapp
On the black screen after signing in, if you press the Win key + R - does a run window open please and if it does, if you then type cmd, and click OK
does the cmd window open please

This is only of relevance if you have not started the clean install


----------



## rdkapp (Jan 5, 1999)

rdkapp said:


> 3. *The location of the data and programs on the Data Drive will be set up after install.*​​I want to focus on #3, because I want to make sure this is correct, as I don't want to fill up my boot drive with data and I know what it took to modify this after the fact in XP. I had an XP machine that ran out of space on its boot drive and I wanted to move the data to a storage drive. I had to modify the Registry and it was a long process that I'm not sure was ever 100% successful. I initially set up the Data Drive when I installed Win 7 on this machine and I have a vague recollection of doing it during installation. Has this changed in Win 10? If I wanted to do it on this computer (working Win 10), how would I do it?


OK, nevermind. I found this: https://www.dummies.com/computers/o...e-the-location-of-user-folders-in-windows-10/ and a bunch of other how-to sources.

It's nice when Microsoft finally makes changes to the OS with the user in mind. I will proceed with the install and if I do not come across anything that will allow me to link up the Data Drive as the place to save Documents, Music, Pictures, Videos, etc., I will do it after install.


----------



## managed (May 24, 2003)

Did you see post #104 by *Macboatmaster* ? If not please read it if you haven't already started the clean install.


----------



## rdkapp (Jan 5, 1999)

Macboatmaster said:


> On the black screen after signing in, if you press the Win key + R - does a run window open please and if it does, if you then type cmd, and click OK
> does the cmd window open please


No, a run window did not open. For grins, I tried Win key + [all letters] and the only one that did anything was Win key + L which took me back to the login screen.

Let me know pretty quickly if you think of anything else. Otherwise, I will proceed with the install.


----------



## Macboatmaster (Jan 15, 2010)

Can you get to cmd from new task on task manager
Before you proceed I cannot guarantee that this method I have in mind is going to work
So if you wish to go straight from the clean install then please do so.
If my method works and there is anything on that drive worth having it will still be there.
IF HOWEVER you have reached the conclusion that, you have whatever you need - separately on recover or whatever you have done, then perhaps you may wish to go straight for the clean install


----------



## Macboatmaster (Jan 15, 2010)

rdkapp said:


> *Let me know pretty quickly if you think of anything else*. Otherwise, I will proceed with the install.


I had not noticed that last line of your post when I typed my reply.
I regret to say that it is 0020 hrs in UK and I will not be able to complete my suggestions before I sign off, for this session, so perhaps it would be better if you did go straight for clean install.

You have done very well on this especially as the thread is now on 108 posts.
The choice is of course yours, you can either wait for my return about 1800 hrs UK time 
Or you can go for clean install

IF you can get to cmd window, then there is a chance my planned approach will work. However as you know from many aspects of your topic there is no guarantee on this.


----------



## rdkapp (Jan 5, 1999)

If you can hang on for a couple of minutes, I will let you know asap.


----------



## rdkapp (Jan 5, 1999)

The answer is yes. I can get to a Command Prompt.


----------



## Macboatmaster (Jan 15, 2010)

Do you have the installation media made on the usb drive


----------



## rdkapp (Jan 5, 1999)

Yes.


----------



## Macboatmaster (Jan 15, 2010)

Read this please
https://www.tenforums.com/tutorials/16397-repair-install-windows-10-place-upgrade.html

we are going to try it using the usb media installation you have
So connect that to the computer
DO NOT BOOT from that USB
It maybe that it will connect and configure whilst signed into windows
If not and presuming that the USB is not the first boot device, and that is the drive that is corrupted where you can sign in but have the black screen, then connect it and then sign into windows

Now go back to cmd prompt and go to the letter of the USB drive
So if cmd prompt opens on
C:\Windows
type
?:
for the letter of the USB drive
If you do not know which letter it is - not having the ability to open explorer then see if diskpart will tell you


----------



## rdkapp (Jan 5, 1999)

Okay, I read the article and found the USB drive letter. It is S:. So, I don't really understand how to use the USB drive media in relation to the article. The article seems to be using the Win 10 install media. Should I also have the Win 10 install disc in the DVD drive?


----------



## Macboatmaster (Jan 15, 2010)

rdkapp
I have to go.
It is now 0056 hrs.
If you id the letter of that drive
In cmd prompt as I said you type
If for instance it was F
F:
then your type at the F:\>
dir
then you see the files in the usb drive 
one of them will be setup.exe

you type - being now back at the 
F:\> 
which is automatic having type dir
setup.exe
and press enter 
hopefully although your desktop is not there as task manager is and cmd prompt is you should see the windows in the link I sent you
IF it does not work - it was worth a try after all the effort you and indeed my colleague managed have put into the topic

Then you are back to clean installwhich will of course work
DEPENDING on if the problem is the drive itself - if it is clean install will not work


----------



## Macboatmaster (Jan 15, 2010)

Re 115 post
see this on link
To Do a Repair Install of Windows 10 with USB Installation Media
you have I thought made the USB installation media

IF not what is it you have on the USB please


----------



## rdkapp (Jan 5, 1999)

Macboatmaster said:


> one of them will be setup.exe
> 
> you type - being now back at the
> F:\>
> ...


Got it. I'm looking for the file setup.exe and running it. That's what I didn't understand.

I don't think the problem is the drive itself.

Thanks for your help and staying up.


----------



## Macboatmaster (Jan 15, 2010)

I cannot resist waiting please let me know how it is going
has the first window opened


----------



## Macboatmaster (Jan 15, 2010)

How is progress, I wanted to wait until you have a window showing from the repair - upgrade install but I should really go off now


----------



## rdkapp (Jan 5, 1999)

I don't see setup.exe in the directory of the USB drive. I also looked inside all of the sub-directories. Here's a screenshot:










I thought you were referring to the Boot Repair USB that I made from Post #70. I do have Win 10 install media on a DVD which I know I can access in Command Prompt.


----------



## Macboatmaster (Jan 15, 2010)

Sorry I have to go
I asked


> Do you have the installation media made on the usb drive


and you replied Yes

I apologise if there was confusion, but you cannot of course repair windows 10 as on the link I sent from a Linux boot repair disc.

IT WILL NOT WORK from a DVD
I suggest you remake it on a USB

The details in the link to the repair install show a mounted ISO but that is on a virtual CD drive
NOT the installation media as you need to make on a usb drive

From cmd prompt it is possible to mount an ISO, but with your situation it is unlikely to MOUNT, so you need the full install files on the USB
It will look like this


----------



## rdkapp (Jan 5, 1999)

Sorry I misunderstood. That Linux Boot Repair USB is the only media I've created in relation to this thread. So, I was focusing on the word "made." I apologize.


----------



## rdkapp (Jan 5, 1999)

Can I just copy from the DVD to a USB drive, or do I have to download the ISO again?


----------



## Macboatmaster (Jan 15, 2010)

I have attached a screenshot to my previous post of the USB
NO you cannot copy from the DVD
I am not quite sure you have this right
You do not download the ISO as such
You select to make a USB installation media
From the Microsoft link



> Select which media you want to use:
> 
> *USB flash drive.* Attach a blank USB flash drive with at least 8GB of space. Any content on the flash drive will be deleted.
> *ISO file.* Save an ISO file to your PC, which you can use to create a DVD. After the file is downloaded, you can go to location where the file is saved, or select *Open DVD burner*, and follow the instructions to burn the file to a DVD. For more info about using an ISO file, see Additional methods for using the ISO file to install Windows 10 section below.




Cheers
Goodnight


----------



## Macboatmaster (Jan 15, 2010)

AND you are far better installing even on a clean install from a USB flash pen than you are from a DVD


----------



## rdkapp (Jan 5, 1999)

I accessed the DVD and found and ran setup.exe. It is loading as I type.

You are correct, I probably do not have the terminology exactly right. I haven't done it very often. I just know that there is an ISO involved.


----------



## rdkapp (Jan 5, 1999)

Here's where it's at:










I have to step away for a bit and I know it's late. I will look closer at the article and try to follow along as far as I can and will post back when finished with the results. I appreciate your help and the fact that you hung around so late.

BTW, my confusion is clear from Post #115. Sorry again.


----------



## rdkapp (Jan 5, 1999)

Macboatmaster said:


> AND you are far better installing even on a clean install from a USB flash pen than you are from a DVD


Why, because it's faster?


----------



## managed (May 24, 2003)

I think he has logged off for the night.

Just click on Next at that screenshot.

I'm logging off myself now, when the PC reboots don't 'press any key to boot from DVD'.


----------



## rdkapp (Jan 5, 1999)

It can't go further than the next screen as it's in Safe Mode. I didn't know it was in Safe Mode, but the images on the display are larger like they are in Safe Mode. I just thought the GUI was having issues.










I'll be doing a clean install and will post an update when I'm finished, or if I run into any snags.

As always, I appreciate all the help.


----------



## Macboatmaster (Jan 15, 2010)

Indeed, as on the tutorial


> You will *only be able to do a repair install of Windows 10 from within Windows 10*. You will not be able to do a repair install at boot or in *safe mode *


I cannot remember now, having only come in on he topic, on occasions, if the SAFE boot was set at some stage, or if it has booted safe mode, not being able to boot normal mode


----------



## managed (May 24, 2003)

I would read this to set the locations of your personal files after 10 is installed :- https://answers.microsoft.com/en-us...-cleanly/68bca85f-e23d-4074-9bbb-0643e0a43444


----------



## Macboatmaster (Jan 15, 2010)

rdkapp said:


> Why, because it's faster?


Partially, yes, even the slowest usb drive is usually considerably faster for read, than the fastest dvd drive
Additionally, people have encountered problems using a DVD, especially from the aspect of


> a blank DVD (and DVD burner)


as shown on the Microsoft download media creation site.

If it is burnt too fast, it may appear to work at the start, but often fails halfway through the install.
There are other reasons, that it fails, but the answer is IMHO - use a flash drive.
If you want to try it with DVD and it works that is great
The fact it works for you, does NOT eliminate the inherent risk in using a DVD as afainst a flash pen.


----------



## rdkapp (Jan 5, 1999)

Macboatmaster said:


> Indeed, as on the tutorial
> 
> 
> > You will *only be able to do a repair install of Windows 10 from within Windows 10*. You will not be able to do a repair install at boot or in *safe mode*
> ...


Yes, I read the tutorial and knew it wouldn't work in safe mode. I just didn't know the computer was in safe mode. Other than the lower resolution of the display which I attributed to problems with the GUI, nothing told me it was in safe mode. SAFE boot wasn't set. It was booting into safe mode on its own as I never did anything to cause it to boot into safe mode.

After the clean install, we were initially back in business; however, after I dual booted into XP, it is now having problems, described below:

1. The install went smoothly. After the install, it booted up and I logged in. I shut down or restarted a few times and everything appeared to be working well.

2. During the install, I was never presented with any screen recognizing the XP OS sitting on the other drive. So, I wanted to see if dual boot was still available. The MB splash screen that comes up when I power on has a menu, which includes F12 for Boot Menu. That takes me to a screen that looks like it's in BIOS Setup to "Select a Boot First Device." From there, I select "+ Hard Disk" which takes me to a screen where all the connected drives show up, including the Win 10 (formerly corrupted) drive, the XP drive, and the Data drive. The foregoing is all the same as it was before the Win10 drive became corrupted. *From this point forward, everything is different than before the Win10 drive became corrupted.* I selected the XP drive and it took me to the following screen:









So, although this was different than before, I thought it looked normal, except the fact that there are 2 listings for Windows 10. *Do either of you know why? Is that normal? *I selected "Earlier Version of Windows" and it rebooted back to the MB splash screen and then the XP splash screen and it booted into XP and everything appeared to be there and it looked normal. So, I decided to make the registry change suggested by Macboatmaster, to stop XP from deleting the Win 10 RPs when I dual boot to XP. I followed the tutorial exactly and I thought everything went well . . . so I thought . . .

3. When I logged off XP and restarted the computer, and after the MB splash screen, I received this screen:









This has happened several times, but not every time I reboot. Most of the time it happens, it is after dual booting into XP, but sometimes it has happened just after being in Win 10. For example, last night I was working in Win 10 and I shut down. Today, when I booted up, I got the "DISK BOOT FAILURE" screen. I've been able to get past it sometimes with CTRL-ALT-DEL, sometimes with a Hard Reboot, and sometimes by just sticking the Win 10 install disk in the DVD drive (but it doesn't boot from it). It's rather strange.

4. I also found this strange. I am currently in Win 10 on the subject computer and pulled up Disk Management. It takes longer than usual for the disks to show up, but here's the screen shot:









C: is the newly clean installed Win 10 drive. Where are the other partitions? Could XP have deleted them when I first dual booted into it? Isn't that strange?

I would love your feedback on the above. Awaiting your replies, but I'm thinking a new clean install is in order and possibly a deeper look into the dual boot situation.


----------



## managed (May 24, 2003)

The boot files are probably on the XP drive, in the first partition. It should not be a problem.
Go into the Bios and make the XP drive first in the hard drive boot device list, then it should boot to the OS selection screen in your picture each time. When you select 'Earlier version of windows' from there it will restart and boot into XP, this is normal.

Let me know how that goes, if it works ok we can then look at why there are 2 Windows 10 choices and fix that.


----------



## rdkapp (Jan 5, 1999)

Interesting, as in this screen shot?










But, where is the Recovery partition?

I can't make the BIOS adjustment just yet as I'm running a scan on the Win 10 drive, to make sure there are no issues with it. I don't think there are, but with the error message on boot and Macboatmaster's suggestion previously in the thread, I thought it was a good idea to do so.

I wonder . . . if I had done the install with all other drives disconnected, it would've installed 10 in the normal course with the Boot partition and the Recovery partition on C:, correct? And then, if I connected the XP drive, I could still dual boot through F12 and "Select a Boot First Device," correct? Wouldn't that have been a more traditional set up? I bring this up, only because the C: drive is 95% full. It's been 90%+ full for awhile as I no longer save to it, but isn't 95% a concern?

The disk scan is done. No errors shown. I will reboot now and make adjustments to the BIOS.


----------



## rdkapp (Jan 5, 1999)

managed said:


> The boot files are probably on the XP drive, in the first partition. It should not be a problem.
> Go into the Bios and make the XP drive first in the hard drive boot device list, then it should boot to the OS selection screen in your picture each time. When you select 'Earlier version of windows' from there it will restart and boot into XP, this is normal.
> 
> Let me know how that goes, if it works ok we can then look at why there are 2 Windows 10 choices and fix that.


Yes, that is exactly what it does. I rebooted several times alternating between 10 and XP. I never received the "DISK BOOT FAILURE" error.

Could you please reply to the following questions from my previous post?


> But, where is the Recovery partition?





> I wonder . . . if I had done the install with all other drives disconnected, it would've installed 10 in the normal course with the Boot partition and the Recovery partition on C:, correct? And then, if I connected the XP drive, I could still dual boot through F12 and "Select a Boot First Device," correct? Wouldn't that have been a more traditional set up? I bring this up, only because the C: drive is 95% full. It's been 90%+ full for awhile as I no longer save to it, but isn't 95% a concern?


----------



## managed (May 24, 2003)

Doesn't seem to be a 'Recovery' partition, I assume it doesn't make one when installed that way.

Yes but then you would have had to set up the dual-boot for XP manually, I thought it was better to let the Windows 10 install do it. This way you don't need to go into the Bios to change the OS.

No it's more usual to do it the way you just did, the advise from Microsoft is to install the older version of Windows first then the newer one, that way you get the dual-boot menu like you have now.

To remove the extra Windows 10 option in the menu please install this :- https://neosmart.net/EasyBCD/
Get the free version, click on the Register button, you can leave the Email section blank if you like.
Install it and let it start, on the View tab make it's window full screen and post a screenshot please.


----------



## rdkapp (Jan 5, 1999)

managed said:


> No it's more usual to do it the way you just did, the advise from Microsoft is to install the older version of Windows first then the newer one, that way you get the dual-boot menu like you have now.


Thanks for the responses. I will check out the link to remove the extra Windows 10 option in the menu a little later.

After posting, I thought about deleting "_Wouldn't that have been a more traditional set up?_," however, I figured you had already read it. When I thought more about it, I'm sure most people install a dual boot on the same physical drive in a separate partition, so that would be the more usual/traditional install.

Is the lack of a Recovery partition a concern? I think I've used a Recovery partition on a laptop once, but other than that, I've never used it. So, I've always thought it was sort of a waste of space. I'd like to know your thoughts.

Do you have any concerns about the 95% full drive? I went to defrag it (it's spinner), but it recommends against it as it needs at least 15% free space.


----------



## managed (May 24, 2003)

The Recovery partition is put there by the computer maker so you can go back to the 'as new' state of the OS plus any programs the maker put on, like trials of AV software etc.
You can make an 'image' yourself that will do a similar thing, it's best to install any software you want to use and set up windows the way you like it first, then I can help you do that if you want to.

It's not a great problem if the data drive is nearly full, it could slow it down though and it would be better if you could move some of the stuff on it to another drive. Best not to defrag it, it won't make much difference and could take a very long time.
Maybe you could get an external drive and put some of the data onto that ?


----------



## rdkapp (Jan 5, 1999)

managed said:


> The Recovery partition is put there by the computer maker so you can go back to the 'as new' state of the OS plus any programs the maker put on, like trials of AV software etc.


Yes, I get that, but I built my newest computer in Feb 2020 and installed Win 10 from the same ISO install disk as I just used on the troubled computer. Thus, it wasn't a store bought computer and it created a Recovery partition.










The above is why I'm confused about the missing Recovery partition.



managed said:


> You can make an 'image' yourself that will do a similar thing, it's best to install any software you want to use and set up windows the way you like it first, then I can help you do that if you want to.


Yes, I may be interested in doing that. At some point awhile back, I believe I read about doing that, but never put it into action (story of my life ). Anyway, one of the things I've learned from this experience is that you can never have enough USB flash drives. I've got quite a few but they all have data on them and it would take a while to go through them and create some blank ones. They're cheap enough (at least the 4 GB and 8 GB ones) that I should just buy a few.



managed said:


> It's not a great problem if the data drive is nearly full, it could slow it down though and it would be better if you could move some of the stuff on it to another drive. Best not to defrag it, it won't make much difference and could take a very long time.
> Maybe you could get an external drive and put some of the data onto that ?


That nearly full drive is the XP OS drive, so it doesn't just contain old data, but it has the OS and Programs too. I've got plenty of external storage. I have a 4 x 4 TB NAS in a raid 5 that I recently set up. I just haven't figured out a setup and method (for the data transfer from all my systems and hard drives laying around the house) for it, as well as a way to back it up. Again, story of my life .


----------



## managed (May 24, 2003)

Ah well, _that_ Recovery partition is created when you install 10 onto an empty drive, it is described well here :-
https://www.diskpart.com/windows-10/recovery-partition-after-upgrading-to-windows-10-4348.html

I do get confused about which drive is which. I think you should consider dumping XP and just using 10, XP is very insecure if you go online and it's getting harder to find programs that still work in it.

Imaging is very easy once you get into it, it's often quicker to restore an image than to install an OS.


----------



## rdkapp (Jan 5, 1999)

managed said:


> I think you should consider dumping XP and just using 10, XP is very insecure if you go online and it's getting harder to find programs that still work in it.


I've thought about that, but there are a couple of reasons I want to keep it around, and as a dual boot, it doesn't seem that big of an issue. Except for those 2 reasons, I really don't use it. The 2 reasons are: (i) scanning software for my scanner (no Win 10 driver); and (ii) a video editing software that I use that is not Win 10 compatible.

There are a few things I noticed when I was in XP today, but don't want to get into them right now. I know it is late for you and I'm getting ready to step away for a bit. Perhaps we can discuss them another day.


----------



## managed (May 24, 2003)

Now I understand why you want to keep XP.

I'll be around when you're ready.


----------



## rdkapp (Jan 5, 1999)

managed said:


> Ah well, _that_ Recovery partition is created when you install 10 onto an empty drive, it is described well here :-
> https://www.diskpart.com/windows-10/recovery-partition-after-upgrading-to-windows-10-4348.html


So, my drive wasn't empty? I'm confused. During installation and prior to the install beginning, I deleted the 3 partitions and all of its space was shown in a singular partition as "Unallocated." I did not format. From the linked article: 


> _When installing a Windows operating system (OS) on a hard drive, and if you use Windows Setup to create new partition on an MBR disk, Windows will create a system reserved partition, and if it is a GPT disk, then Windows will create a recovery partition and an EFI system partition without drive letter. . . .
> 
> . . . Otherwise, if you install Windows on a hard drive containing multiple partitions, Windows will save the WinRE in a folder named Recovery in the root directory of your system drive (C: drive) without leaving a recovery partition._


As for the 1st paragraph above, didn't Windows Setup create a new partition on an MBR disk? Also, I'm not sure what a GPT disk is. Apparently, my newer computer has a GPT disk because it is setup as described, with a Recovery partition and an EFI System partition. Is that right? How do you know whether you have a MBR or a GPT disk?

As for the 2nd paragraph, this is apparently what happened, as I now have a Recovery folder in the root directory with no Recovery partition, but as I stated before the quote above from the article, I deleted the 3 partitions on the drive before the installation began. Is it because they were deleted within the install program and not before?


----------



## managed (May 24, 2003)

It didn't create a recovery partition because you had a 2nd hard drive connected. Windows will try to put the boot up files and recovery partition onto the drive connected to the highest ranking Sata port, which must have been your XP drive, which will be an MBR type, so it couldn't do it.

The recovery partition is just another way of booting into WinRE (Windows Recovery Environment) which you can do with the install Usb instead.

To find out if a drive is MBR or GPT go to Device Manager, expand Disk Drives, right-click on the drive, click Properties > Volumes tab > Populate button and it will tell you the Partition style, MBR or GPT.

GPT is a more modern way of setting a hard drive up than MBR. GPT is used with computers that have a UEFI type Bios, MBR can still be used but it is limited to 4 Primary partitions, although you can have more by making one of the 4 an 'extended partition' with several 'logical partitions' inside it, but they can't boot windows.

For most purposes that doesn't matter much but if you can use GPT you might as well do so.

Setting up a new drive to be MBR or GPT is the very first thing you have to do to use it, you can do it in Disk Management. After that you can make partitions and format them if you want to, the whole drive can be one partition or you can make more. Each partition will be given it's own drive letter by windows but the letters can change if you boot up a different way, such as when you use the install Usb, that's why it's more precise to use drive numbers and partition numbers, they stay the same (unless you install or remove a drive).


----------



## rdkapp (Jan 5, 1999)

managed said:


> It didn't create a recovery partition because you had a 2nd hard drive connected. Windows will try to put the boot up files and recovery partition onto the drive connected to the highest ranking Sata port, which must have been your XP drive, which will be an MBR type, so it couldn't do it.


Ah, now I understand. Thank you for explaining and for the additional details on GPT vs. MBR. I believe my new computer has a UEFI type BIOS. It looks very updated with graphics and all; not like old BIOS setup appears. My older computer was built in 2010 and doesn't have UEFI BIOS. And yes, the XP drive is connected to the highest ranking SATA port. Is that related to hardware or software? IOW, if I switched the cables on the MB between the XP drive and the Win 10 drive, would that switch their ranking? I'm just curious.



managed said:


> GPT is a more modern way of setting a hard drive up than MBR. GPT is used with computers that have a UEFI type Bios, MBR can still be used but it is limited to 4 Primary partitions, although you can have more by making one of the 4 an 'extended partition' with several 'logical partitions' inside it, but they can't boot windows.
> 
> For most purposes that doesn't matter much but if you can use GPT you might as well do so.


So, other than no limitation of 4 Primary partitions with MBR and the UEFI type BIOS, are there any other benefits to GPT?

As for the XP drive, as you know, it could certainly use some cleanup and thus reduce its capacity below 95%. I'm sure there are lots of programs on there that I could uninstall and data that I could move to a universal storage drive (e.g. the NAS). There are likely programs that I would never ever use again.

One thing for sure that I noticed is that while I was booted into XP the other night, I tried to access this forum so I could reply to a post, but none of the installed browsers would work. Firefox was my default browser in XP at the time, and it wouldn't even open. Neither Chrome or IE could access this forum or even techguy.org. I don't plan on using XP very often, but when I do, there may be an occasion when I need/want to access the internet. I just need something simple, reliable, and safe (as can be). So, I could definitely uninstall Chrome, disable IE, and possibly fix Firefox, or choose one of the other browsers recommended here: https://appuals.com/the-5-best-browsers-for-windows-xp/. Also, the 1st comment to that article recommends either New Moon or Mypal over any in the list.

I also found this: http://www.xpbrowsers.com/ which was updated May 23, 2020.

Question for you: Besides Firefox, have you heard of or used any of the browsers listed in the linked articles or the comments? And if so, which would you recommend?


----------



## managed (May 24, 2003)

Yes switching the cables would change the ranking but don't actually do it because then you would have to 'tell' the Bios to change the boot device.

This article explains the differences between MBR and GPT :- https://www.howtogeek.com/193669/whats-the-difference-between-gpt-and-mbr-when-partitioning-a-drive/

I use the Vivaldi browser in 7 and 10, I don't have XP anymore so can't help you find a browser for it.


----------



## rdkapp (Jan 5, 1999)

managed said:


> To remove the extra Windows 10 option in the menu please install this :- https://neosmart.net/EasyBCD/
> Get the free version, click on the Register button, you can leave the Email section blank if you like.
> Install it and let it start, on the View tab make it's window full screen and post a screenshot please.


I'm just now getting to this. Here's the screenshot:










Another issue with regard to XP. Last night, I was cleaning up by deleting some programs in XP and ran Disk Management to see how much space I had freed up. Only the XP drive showed up with its 3 partitions (C:, D:, & E: ). Today, when I logged into XP, I ran Disk Management and did see the Win 10 drive (K: ) and the Data drive (L: ), as seen in this screenshot:










However, the Win 10 drive (K: ) is showing as blank, with no file system or files. See screenshot above and below:










Do you know the reason for this? And, is it any cause for concern with what happened before?

BTW, some positive news. I went with MyPal as a browser in XP, as it claims to support XP and is updated often and I couldn't be more pleased. It is very clean with a small footprint and there was no lag in anything I did last night. I deleted Chrome and disabled IE and I reinstalled the Firefox version recommended for XP, but it was frustrating to use with some lags, so after discovering how well MyPal worked, I made it the default browser and will keep Firefox, only if needed. MyPal also introduced me to the DuckDuckGo search engine which is a non-tracking private search engine, which I appreciate and should help with security while in XP.


----------



## managed (May 24, 2003)

I'm assuming you are running EasyBCD in Windows 10.

At the first screen, as in your picture, click on the Edit Boot Menu tab, click on the 3rd entry then on Delete.
You can also change the default OS and the Countdown time if you wish, don't make the countdown less than 3 though.

XP does not understand GPT disks, your 2 screenshots are normal.

I'm glad you found that browser for XP.


----------



## rdkapp (Jan 5, 1999)

managed said:


> I'm assuming you are running EasyBCD in Windows 10.
> 
> At the first screen, as in your picture, click on the Edit Boot Menu tab, click on the 3rd entry then on Delete.
> You can also change the default OS and the Countdown time if you wish, don't make the countdown less than 3 though.


Yes, I ran it in Win 10. I deleted the 3rd entry and I also renamed "Earlier Version of Windows" to "Windows XP." Worked like a charm -












managed said:


> XP does not understand GPT disks, your 2 screenshots are normal.


But it's not a GPT disk. This is my older computer with a non-UEFI BIOS. See screenshot below:


----------



## rdkapp (Jan 5, 1999)

Could it be due to it being an SSD?


----------



## managed (May 24, 2003)

rdkapp said:


> Could it be due to it being an SSD?


Possibly, post a screenshot of XP's Device Manager with the Disk drives section expanded please.


----------



## managed (May 24, 2003)

Expand the 'IDE/ATA ATAPI controllers' section as well if it's there please.


----------



## rdkapp (Jan 5, 1999)

Here's the screenshot with both sections expanded:


----------



## managed (May 24, 2003)

I can not see anything wrong in that Device Manager screenshot.

Let's recap

XP is on the WD mechanical drive (3 partitions)
10 is on the SSD (1 partition)
You installed 10 onto the SSD while it was connected to the laptop it is in now.
XP cannot see any files on the 10 drive in Windows Explorer.
Both drives are MBR and both have Sata connectors

Is the above all correct ?


----------



## rdkapp (Jan 5, 1999)

managed said:


> XP is on the WD mechanical drive (3 partitions)
> 10 is on the SSD (1 partition)
> You installed 10 onto the SSD while it was connected to the laptop it is in now.
> XP cannot see any files on the 10 drive in Windows Explorer.
> ...


Yes. The only thing I would correct which should have no bearing on anything, is that it is a desktop computer; not a laptop. So, yes, both drives are MBR and connected via SATA directly to the MB.

Also, not to complicate matters, but I would add that the Data drive (the 1 TB mechanical Seagate connected via SATA directly to the MB) that was installed as the data drive for Win 7 and then Win 10 (after upgrade) is seen in XP Disk Management as Disk 2 (L: drive) and does show files in Windows Explorer.


----------



## rdkapp (Jan 5, 1999)

I don't know if this helps, but this screenshot is in XP . . .


----------



## managed (May 24, 2003)

I'm not sure why this is happening but does it really matter ? You said you don't use XP much and if you want to swap files between 10 and XP you can do that via the 1TB drive.


----------



## rdkapp (Jan 5, 1999)

managed said:


> I'm not sure why this is happening but does it really matter ? You said you don't use XP much and if you want to swap files between 10 and XP you can do that via the 1TB drive.


Correct. I don't use XP much and I can swap files via the 1 TB Data drive. I really wasn't concerned about that. My only concern was whether this could, at some point, result in corruption of the Win 10 drive again, like it did before.


----------



## managed (May 24, 2003)

There's no way of knowing.

Making an image of the 10 drive and storing it on the 1TB drive would be a good precaution though, so once you have 10 set up and your apps installed we can do that if you wish.


----------



## rdkapp (Jan 5, 1999)

managed said:


> Making an image of the 10 drive and storing it on the 1TB drive would be a good precaution though, so once you have 10 set up and your apps installed we can do that if you wish.


Definitely interested in doing that. However, I've been focusing on cleaning up the XP partition, and it is getting too time consuming for me right now. I would like to move on to getting Win 10 set up and back to the way I want it. So, in the interest of saving time, I looked at the other partitions on the XP drive and I'd like to combine the C: and D: partitions. There is relatively little data on the D: partition (< 2 GB) (see screenshot below) and I'm not even sure how some of it got there. It was maybe when CHKDSK ran that caused the corruption that brought me here. I can easily delete or move the data on D: somewhere else in short order.










In doing a little research myself, I know that Disk Management in XP cannot accomplish what I'm wanting to do. Can Disk Management in Win 10 do it safely on the XP drive? I did read that the Unallocated Space must be directly to the right of the partition you want to add it to, so if I make the entire D: partition Unallocated Space, it seems that would be the situation needed to accomplish it, correct? If so, then that leaves me with the question I posed above: *Can the Win 10 Disk Management safely reallocate the partitions on the XP drive?* If the answer is "no," is there a 3rd party program that can safely accomplish what I'm trying to do?

If I can accomplish this, I can put off cleaning up the XP partition to a future date and return my focus to setting up the Win 10 drive and then imaging it.


----------



## managed (May 24, 2003)

I'm not sure if you can do that in 10.

I use this free program for partition stuff :- https://www.partitionwizard.com/free-partition-manager.html

If you install that in 10 be careful and Decline any other software offered, it seems to be a 2 step process now with the latest version #12, you get a small download and run that to install the whole program.
When you run it the display is similar to Disk Management.
As you said delete the 2nd partition on the XP drive then resize the XP partition to the right to use the new unallocated space. If you right-click on a partition you get a menu.
I am not sure if it will let you use the unallocated space from a logical partition like that 2nd one straight away, you may have to convert it to Primary first.

Let me know if it can do it as above. It won't actually do anything until you tell it to do any 'operations pending'.


----------



## rdkapp (Jan 5, 1999)

managed said:


> I use this free program for partition stuff :- https://www.partitionwizard.com/free-partition-manager.html
> 
> I am not sure if it will let you use the unallocated space from a logical partition like that 2nd one straight away, you may have to convert it to Primary first.
> 
> Let me know if it can do it as above. It won't actually do anything until you tell it to do any 'operations pending'.


I had some trouble with the install (it kept closing or timing out after about 10 seconds) of partition wizard, but after reboot, it installed and I ran it. I was able to successfully delete the entire F: partition, making it Unallocated Space. I was then able to directly add the entire Unallocated Space to the E: drive (the XP boot partition). I don't know whether it still saw the Unallocated Space as a logical partition or not, but it worked without having to convert it to a primary partition.

So, now I want to reassign some drive letters and have a question about doing it with the dual boot situation. Will the reassigned drive letters in each OS have any effect on the other OS? In other words, in XP, if I reassign what is now the E: drive to D:, will that have any effect on that drive in Win 10, and vice versa, if I give that same drive a new drive letter within Win 10? I'm not planning to reassign the Data drive (the 1 TB mechanical), as I know that may cause some problems within Win 10 when it looks for its data.

Also, do you know how I can change the name of my User folder in Win 10? I've seen some tutorials on the web, but some of them give a caveat that it may or may not work. This tutorial makes it seem fairly simple. [Note: when I just posted the link, it embedded the YouTube video right in my reply. Is this normal and okay?]

I figure, if I'm going to do it, now would be the best time before I have much of any data saved.


----------



## managed (May 24, 2003)

I think you can change the drive letters when you are running in XP to whatever you want, except for C of course.

In 10 I would leave them alone because you are using 10's boot menu and changing letters might upset that.

I have never tried to change a Username, personally I would leave it as it is, it's purely cosmetic.

Yes it's normal for a YouTube link to embed the actual Video and it's okay to do so.


----------



## rdkapp (Jan 5, 1999)

managed said:


> In 10 I would leave them alone because you are using 10's boot menu and changing letters might upset that


Thanks for the responses. Just for purposes of clarification, I would only be changing the letter of one of the partitions on the XP drive. For example, in XP, I had C:, D:, and E:. The corresponding drives in Win 10 were E:, F:, and G:. After deleting the partition, D: in XP and F: in Win 10 are now gone. I am proposing to: (i) change the remaining E: in XP to D:, and (ii) change the remaining G: in Win 10 to F:. These are the same partitions on the same physical drive, but in different OSes. I am not planning to touch the boot partition drive in either OS. Would that change your answer?


----------



## managed (May 24, 2003)

Changing F to E in Windows 10 will be okay.


----------



## managed (May 24, 2003)

Would also be ok to change E to D in XP.


----------



## rdkapp (Jan 5, 1999)

managed said:


> Changing F to E in Windows 10 will be okay.


Sorry, I edited my post to: "change the remaining G: in Win 10 to F:," but I knew what you meant, and I'm sure you knew what I meant. It's all good, as the changes were made and everything seems to be working fine.


----------



## managed (May 24, 2003)

Well done.


----------



## rdkapp (Jan 5, 1999)

Okay, I knew the process of setting up Win 10 was going to have some difficulties. So, here's one:

This computer has 2 optical drives (DVD burners). One is IDE and the other is SATA. The SATA drive is my preferred drive. After multiple reboots into XP and 10, I am finding that Win 10 does not recognize the SATA DVD burner unless there is a disc in the drive on bootup. The BIOS sees it. Win XP sees it whether or not there is a disc in the drive on bootup. Win 10 does not. It's as if the optical drive does not exist. I've even tried to put a disc in it after bootup to see if it would then see it and it doesn't. I've also tried unplugging the SATA cable and plugging it back in, but that also was unsuccessful.

Any ideas or thoughts?


----------



## rdkapp (Jan 5, 1999)

See Disk Management screenshot:










There is an L: drive that currently has a disc in it, but the disc was not in the drive on bootup.


----------



## managed (May 24, 2003)

Ok, in File Explorer click on View > Options (top right) > View tab, untick 'Hide empty drives'

If that doesn't help try working through the methods here :- https://www.groovypost.com/howto/fix-dvd-cd-drive-not-working-missing-windows-10/


----------



## rdkapp (Jan 5, 1999)

Unchecking "Hide empty drives" didn't fix the problem. So, I'm working through the methods on the linked website and here's where I am so far:

1. Windows Update - one was available; installed it, but no change
2. DVD drive Firmware Update - one was available; installed it, but no change
3. DVD drive Driver Update - uninstalled and rebooted, but no change
4. Looking at the next step, which was to remove and reinstall IDE/ATAPI Controllers, I launched Device Manager and on the View menu, I clicked "Show hidden devices" and I see this:










There is a hidden instance of the problem drive. Could that be the problem? If so, how should I handle it?

And, in case you are wondering, the Multimedia Controller showing the issue, I believe, is a HDTV (digital/analog) Tuner card that works in XP, but there is no driver for it in Win 10. I've spent quite a bit of time in the past trying to resolve that issue and I briefly looked at it the other day and am satisfied that there is still no solution, or at least one that I care to attempt. I can't imagine that it would be the cause of the optical drive issues, but should I disable it in Win 10?


----------



## managed (May 24, 2003)

Try deleting both instances of the problem drive then restart the PC and see what is there then.

Yes disable the TV card, I doubt it will help with the Optical drive issue but since it doesn't have a driver anyway disabling it will do no harm.

Do you know what the Marvell device is ? If not post the PCI\VEN data (in DM right-click it > Properties > Details > Hardware ID's in dropdown)


----------



## managed (May 24, 2003)

I just discovered the Marvell device is a Sata driver so that could be the problem, see here for a download link and install instructions :- https://windowsforum.com/resources/marvell-91xx-sata-controller-6gb-driver-for-windows-10.40/


----------



## rdkapp (Jan 5, 1999)

managed said:


> I just discovered the Marvell device is a Sata driver so that could be the problem, see here for a download link and install instructions :- https://windowsforum.com/resources/marvell-91xx-sata-controller-6gb-driver-for-windows-10.40/


Yes, the Marvell device is the SATA Controller on the MB.

Should I do this 1st before deleting both instances of the drive in DM?

Additional questions/comments about the linked instruction webpage:
1. It mentions "older Intel chipset motherboards." This is an AMD MB. Should I follow the instructions anyway?
2. It mentions that it will be listed in DM under Storage Controllers. Mine is listed in "Other devices." Under Storage Controllers is: "Microsoft Storage Spaces Controller." I'm guessing this could be further indication of a problem, but when updating, I should update it wherever it is sitting in DM, correct? Then, if that fixes it, it will likely be placed under the correct device heading, correct?


----------



## managed (May 24, 2003)

Yes, install the driver first using your Marvell entry under Other Devices, the rest of those instructions are correct.
Even if it doesn't ask you to restart do that anyway.
Then post a new screenshot of Device Manager with the relevant sections expanded please.


----------



## rdkapp (Jan 5, 1999)

Updated the Marvell driver, restarted and here is the screenshot of DM:










Both instances of the troubled drive are now hidden (there was no disc in the drive on boot) and it doesn't show in File Explorer either before or after placing a disc in it. The Marvell driver was moved from "Other devices" to "System devices" and not "Storage controllers."


----------



## managed (May 24, 2003)

Ok, now delete the 2 entries for ATAPI... and restart.


----------



## Macboatmaster (Jan 15, 2010)

I appreciate the problem is NOT fully sorted, but having had a slight involvement in the topic, and it was only slight, all the hard work being done by my colleague* managed *and indeed by you *- rdkapp,* I want to compliment you both.
I have to admit that I never thought TestDisk or PhotoRec would sort it out.

Quite an achievement Allan - in fact tremendous.


----------



## managed (May 24, 2003)

Macboatmaster said:


> I appreciate the problem is NOT fully sorted, but having had a slight involvement in the topic, and it was only slight, all the hard work being done by my colleague* managed *and indeed by you *- rdkapp,* I want to compliment you both.
> I have to admit that I never thought TestDisk or PhotoRec would sort it out.
> 
> Quite an achievement Allan - in fact tremendous.


Thanks, it needed a clean install of 10 in the end but it is mostly working ok now.


----------



## rdkapp (Jan 5, 1999)

Macboatmaster said:


> I appreciate the problem is NOT fully sorted, but having had a slight involvement in the topic, and it was only slight, all the hard work being done by my colleague* managed *and indeed by you *- rdkapp,* I want to compliment you both.
> I have to admit that I never thought TestDisk or PhotoRec would sort it out.
> 
> Quite an achievement Allan - in fact tremendous.


"Slight involvement"? I think you were pretty heavily involved. Maybe not for as long, but you have quite a few posts in this thread. So, thanks and compliments have to go your way too!


----------



## managed (May 24, 2003)

rdkapp said:


> "Slight involvement"? I think you were pretty heavily involved. Maybe not for as long, but you have quite a few posts in this thread. So, thanks and compliments have to go your way too!


Yes indeed, you had major input !


----------



## rdkapp (Jan 5, 1999)

managed said:


> Ok, now delete the 2 entries for ATAPI... and restart.


After deleting both ATAPI entries and restarting, here's the screenshot of DM with hidden devices shown:










No disc was in the drive on boot. It's gone completely.


----------



## managed (May 24, 2003)

Ok, try it with a disk in the drive at boot.


----------



## rdkapp (Jan 5, 1999)

managed said:


> Ok, try it with a disk in the drive at boot.


I was a step ahead of you. Here's the screenshot of DM with hidden devices shown:


----------



## managed (May 24, 2003)

Does it show the contents of the disk in File Explorer now ? Is the drive shown in Disk Management now ?

Also if you boot with the drive empty do they now show an inserted disk after getting into Windows ?


----------



## rdkapp (Jan 5, 1999)

managed said:


> Does it show the contents of the disk in File Explorer now ? Is the drive shown in Disk Management now ?


Yes and Yes, but this was always the case before when I booted with a disc in the drive. The drive letter did change to G: after (I believe) I did the Firmware update.


managed said:


> Also if you boot with the drive empty do they now show an inserted disk after getting into Windows ?


No. Ah, but DM does show the drive as hidden.










I wonder if the SATA cable is the problem? I hope not, as I will have to pull out the HDDs to access the SATA ports on the MB. It's a relatively small case (bought in 2005) with no features of efficiency.


----------



## managed (May 24, 2003)

Well, do you really need 2 Optical drives ?


----------



## rdkapp (Jan 5, 1999)

managed said:


> Well, do you really need 2 Optical drives ?


Haha, well no, especially not on this machine; however, this is my best optical drive and is the one I prefer when burning CDs/DVDs.

I guess I could try to move it to my newer computer and see if it is recognized there and move the SATA optical drive in that one to this computer and see if it will be recognized.

Before doing any swapping, I could also finish up the tutorial on the website you posted a link to earlier.

Did you see my post about the SATA cable?


----------



## rdkapp (Jan 5, 1999)

I think the optical drive currently in the newer computer is an HP which was cannibalized from an older computer.

Anyway, I have to step away for awhile and I know it is getting late there. So, if you can, post with your last comments and I will follow up later tonight or tomorrow.


----------



## managed (May 24, 2003)

Yes I saw your post about the Sata cable. I am somewhat baffled by that error message, if the device is not connected how does Windows even know it's there ?
Ah it says it's not Currently connected !
I suppose it could be an intermittent cable connection.
Probably better to check the cables before doing anything else.


----------



## managed (May 24, 2003)

Or buy a few Usb sticks and stop using optical disks


----------



## managed (May 24, 2003)

rdkapp said:


> I think the optical drive currently in the newer computer is an HP which was cannibalized from an older computer.
> 
> Anyway, I have to step away for awhile and I know it is getting late there. So, if you can, post with your last comments and I will follow up later tonight or tomorrow.


Ok, goodnight. I'm logging off too, back around 7pm BST.


----------



## rdkapp (Jan 5, 1999)

rdkapp said:


> I guess I could try to move it to my newer computer and see if it is recognized there and move the SATA optical drive in that one to this computer and see if it will be recognized.


I may end up doing this anyway. I'll check to see which SATA optical drive is newer and check their respective burning performances and then decide. My new computer has no IDE ports, so the other optical drive must stay where it is.



managed said:


> I suppose it could be an intermittent cable connection.
> Probably better to check the cables before doing anything else.


I will use a different cable and see if that fixes the issue. Ugh, not looking forward to digging into that machine just to swap a cable. If it turns out to be the cable, that would be weird that XP hasn't had the problem at all.



managed said:


> Or buy a few Usb sticks and stop using optical disks


I know you were kidding, but my parents (both in their 80s) like CDs and DVDs. They wouldn't know what to do with a USB stick. 😕


----------



## Macboatmaster (Jan 15, 2010)

managed said:


> Thanks, it needed a clean install of 10 in the end but it is mostly working ok now


Cheers - I forgot it needed a clean install, I somehow managed (?) to think you had managed to sort it out using TestDisk
*rdkapp*
Still quite impressive staying power at currently 197


----------



## rdkapp (Jan 5, 1999)

Macboatmaster said:


> Cheers - I forgot it needed a clean install, I somehow managed (?) to think you had managed to sort it out using TestDisk


But *managed* managed to manage it all to work out! 


Macboatmaster said:


> *rdkapp*
> Still quite impressive staying power at currently 197


If you haven't figured it out yet, I don't give up easily. But I couldn't have done it without the help of you and Allan (managed), for which I am truly thankful.


----------



## rdkapp (Jan 5, 1999)

I have success to report on the optical drive issue. It wasn't the cable. I tried 2 different SATA cables. I even tried a different SATA port on the MB, but nothing changed.

The culprit ended up being one or multiple of the IDE ATA/ATAPI controllers. More specifically, one of the highlighted ones in the screenshot below. I know this because after deleting the top 4, it asked me to restart and without pause, I clicked "yes." It restarted and the problem persisted. I then went back and deleted all 8, this time skipping the multiple requests to restart, until the end. After restart without a disc in the drive, the drive shows up in DM, in File Explorer, in Disk Management, and when a disc is inserted, the OS sees it. Furthermore, the optical drives are now given the drive letters G: and H:, which is in order after all hard drives and what I am used to. So, the problem appears to be resolved. 🤞


----------



## managed (May 24, 2003)

That's great news, I'm really glad you *managed* to sort that out.

So, what now ?


----------



## rdkapp (Jan 5, 1999)

managed said:


> So, what now ?


I'm going to continue setting up the computer and installing my software and then make an image hopefully with your help.


----------



## managed (May 24, 2003)

Ok, post again when you're ready.


----------



## rdkapp (Jan 5, 1999)

I will, or when I run into another problem (hopefully not) . . .


----------



## rdkapp (Jan 5, 1999)

Not a problem but some questions :

While reinstalling some of my programs on the Data drive (the 1 TB mechanical), I began wondering:
1. What effect will it have on imaging the Win 10 drive if some of the programs are installed on a separate drive?
2. How will having some of the programs residing on a drive separate from the OS affect restoring the OS from the Image, in the unlikely 🤞 event that the need arises?
3. Do you recommend against installing most of my programs on the Data drive? I did this initially (years back), because my 1st SSD was only a 60 GB and it was just easier to keep it that way when I bought the bigger SSD drive. Now that I have clean installed the OS on a 250 GB SSD, and I have the input of someone more experienced and knowledgeable than I, I'm wondering what the pluses and minuses are.
4. I am considering putting the Image on a USB thumb drive rather than the Data drive. What size USB thumb drive do you think I'm gonna need?


----------



## managed (May 24, 2003)

1. You would need an Image of the Windows 10 drive _and_ an Image of the separate drive.
2. You can restore the OS alone but you will have problems if the data on the other drive is not in sync with the apps, for example if you restore an image containing the Microsoft Office program Word made before you saved some documents from Word, then Word will not know those documents exist. That could be fixed quite easily but it could be a lot more difficult with other apps.
3. I would put everything _except _large data files like Videos onto the new SSD, that avoids any issues like the above.
4. Don't use a Usb thumb drive, they are not very reliable, it's much better to use the internal data drive or an external Usb drive.

If it was my setup I would use the internal data drive for any large data files like Videos and for all images.

Any data that you can't afford to lose should also be backed up elsewhere, on a CD/DVD and on a Usb thumb drive for instance, the more copies you have on different media the safer the data is.


----------



## rdkapp (Jan 5, 1999)

managed said:


> 1. You would need an Image of the Windows 10 drive _and_ an Image of the separate drive.
> 2. You can restore the OS alone but you will have problems if the data on the other drive is not in sync with the apps, for example if you restore an image containing the Microsoft Office program Word made before you saved some documents from Word, then Word will not know those documents exist. That could be fixed quite easily but it could be a lot more difficult with other apps.
> 3. I would put everything _except _large data files like Videos onto the new SSD, that avoids any issues like the above.


Combining 1, 2, & 3, I think I can say that the problems described in your answer to #2 can be resolved by just reinstalling the program and pointing it to the data. I just did that with my email client, Thunderbird. I had the program and my profile saved to the Data drive. Of course, Thunderbird (the program) would not operate correctly when I tried to open it, so I reinstalled it on to the Data drive and then pointed it to my profile and voila!, I am back in business with all my prior emails. It just needed to download the emails since the Win 10 drive became corrupted.

Despite the foregoing, I think I am going to follow your advice, but modified a bit. I am going to install programs that I use regularly (e.g. email, MS Office, web browser(s), Adobe Reader, image editor(s), etc.) on the SSD. Any other programs that I use infrequently or maybe once in a while (e.g. utilities like Recuva, EasyBCD, etc., and others that I just can't think of right now) on the Data drive. I will also continue to have all my data saved to the Data drive. I really like the fact that my data is separate from the OS and programs. I think it really saved me with the corruption of the Win 10 drive. I know that the data, wherever it may reside, needs to be backed up as well, and I like the idea of imaging the OS drive and backing up the data. If I have to reinstall a few programs that were on the Data drive, I think I could live with that.


managed said:


> 4. Don't use a Usb thumb drive, they are not very reliable, it's much better to use the internal data drive or an external Usb drive.
> 
> Any data that you can't afford to lose should also be backed up elsewhere, on a CD/DVD and on a Usb thumb drive for instance, the more copies you have on different media the safer the data is.


And here I was, thinking you and *Macboatmaster* thought USB thumb drives were the be all end all , but I understand what you are saying. I don't know if you remember, but I mentioned earlier in the thread that I have a NAS with 4 x 4 TB drives, set up in a Raid 5, so I've got 12 TB (I think?) of storage available, as well as a few other mechanical drives around the house. So, I've got plenty of storage available. I just thought it would be convenient to have the image on a USB thumb drive that I could just plug in and restore.

Back to my question in #4. I know you probably can't give me a firm answer, because I'm sure it depends on what programs and other stuff are on the OS drive, but how much space does an Image of an OS drive take up? Is it a 1 to 1 ratio, or is there some compression involved?

Also, how often do you re-image? Do you do it every time you install a new program or do you have a schedule that you follow?


----------



## managed (May 24, 2003)

Usb sticks are fine for a lot of things, even installing Windows, but they can fail and you lose all the contents so no good for backup storage.

If the programs are small, like Recuva and EasyBCD, I would put them on the SSD, only putting a massive program or game onto the 1TB.

You can put Macrium onto a Usb stick and boot it, see under Other Tasks > Create Rescue Media, it will make the Usb for you.
In fact that's the way I do it, both to create and restore an image.

There are 3 compression settings in Macrium, I use the medium setting which is the default but you can select more or less compression than that.

I don't make images much, I would if I installed something big like Office or a large game (but I don't game).


----------



## rdkapp (Jan 5, 1999)

managed said:


> There are 3 compression settings in Macrium, I use the medium setting which is the default but you can select more or less compression than that.


Is Macrium Reflect the imaging software? I actually used that to back up the partitions recovered by TestDisk earlier in this thread. Are there any drawbacks to using maximum compression?


managed said:


> I don't make images much, I would if I installed something big like Office or a large game (but I don't game).


So, do you know what the norm is? Do others re-image as they add programs or based on a schedule?


----------



## managed (May 24, 2003)

Yes Macrium Reflect free. It can make Images and Clones.

You can use an Image like a backup, using the Macrium program it can be mounted as a drive with it's own drive letter then you can see it in File Explorer and it behaves just like any other drive/partition. So you can copy folders and files from it onto a 'real' drive.

I believe it takes longer to make and restore a more compressed Image file, the Cpu has to do more work which takes time. So it's a trade-off between time and image file size.
As an example to give you some idea, with the medium compression I use, a 29GB drive with 14GB of used space produced an Image file of 8.24GB, so roughly 60% of the original.

There are many different ideas on the best way to backup and/or image. You can make a 'main' image and then make 'differential' or 'incremental' images later. You have to restore the master first then either the newest differential or _all_ the incremental images.

This sums it up well :- https://knowledgebase.macrium.com/display/KNOW/Differential+and+incremental+disk+images

Personally I just make a new main image when I've installed a new program that is large, I can't be bothered with the other types of image.

Do it in whatever way you find the best for you. You could experiment first to find out.


----------



## rdkapp (Jan 5, 1999)

Okay, I'm still working on the Win 10 drive. I didn't realize how many programs I had installed on the Data drive. So, I'm going through uninstalling/deleting them and then in a lot of cases, I'm finding newer versions and installing them. In the process, however, I have heard a few clicking noises coming from the hard drive area of the computer. They are just single clicks about every 2 to 3 hours. If the clicks are from a hard drive (I don't know what else it would be?), it has to be from the XP drive (the 250 GB mechanical with 2 partitions), as the Data drive (1 TB mechanical) is currently sitting on top of the computer and the clicks are obviously coming from within the computer case. Although the clicks are not happening often, it has become my top priority for imaging for obvious reasons.

Questions:
1. Can I image the XP drive (including the Boot partition) from within Win 10, or do I have to be logged into XP?
2. I am mostly concerned with the data that is on the XP drive and I do have an XP installation disk. However, I'm thinking it would be better to just image the entire drive (both partitions) rather than just the data. Please give me your input on this?
3. This may relate to #2 above. If the drive fails and I have to restore from the image, will it restore the dual boot environment? On the other hand, if I only image/backup the data and I have to do a clean install of XP on a new drive, how will that affect the dual boot situation? Isn't XP supposed to be the 1st OS installed? Is there a way around this?
4. Do you have a recommended utility for testing HDD health? I have been using HDDScan found here: https://hddscan.com/, but I don't know if there is something better or something that you like and trust. Anyway, I am not going to run anything on the suspected failing drive until after I save the data off of it.
5. Are you familiar with SpinRite software from Gibson Research Corporation? You can find it here: https://www.grc.com/sr/spinrite.htm. There is a wealth of other resources and utilities on the website, but it is a bit dated, although it does appear that he keeps updating it. I've read testimonials that SpinRite has been very successful in saving data from failing drives when nothing else could. I've had a few hard drive failures recently (very unusual for me) and I'm considering giving SpinRite a try.

Finally, I discovered that back in 2016, I made an image (I assume with Macrium Reflect as it has a .mrimg extension) of all drives in the computer. I'm think that is when I upgraded from Win 7 to Win 10. The Win 7 boot drive was a 120 GB SSD at that time.


----------



## managed (May 24, 2003)

1. Yes you can Image the XP drive with Macrium running in Windows 10, in fact that is the way I would do it.
2. Image the whole drive.
3. The XP drive will be just as it was when you made the Image, so it would restore the dual-boot.
4. Use the drive maker's utility, most have one.
5. IMO SpinRite is snake oil, expensive snake oil :- https://www.disktuna.com/spinrite-is-not-data-recovery-software/

Yes that would be a Macrium image.


----------



## rdkapp (Jan 5, 1999)

Thanks for the responses.


managed said:


> 5. IMO SpinRite is snake oil, expensive snake oil :- https://www.disktuna.com/spinrite-is-not-data-recovery-software/


Wow! I've never seen a bad review about SpinRite. I've even seen a YouTube video where a guy shows SpinRite working. I've been following Steve Gibson off and on for years and have used quite a few of the free utilities on his website, all with success. I haven't had a chance to read the entire article you linked to, but I will. Hopefully, it will recommend an alternative to SpinRite, as I have a couple of failed drives from which I'd like to try to recover data.


----------



## managed (May 24, 2003)

There's always TestDisk


----------



## rdkapp (Jan 5, 1999)

I found a couple of different old Macrium images for the XP drive that I want to delete. Can I just delete them in File Explorer, or is it recommended to do it in Macrium?


----------



## managed (May 24, 2003)

You can delete them in File Explorer.


----------



## rdkapp (Jan 5, 1999)

One of the old Macrium images that I found contains a backup/image of 3 drives. I'd like to keep a few of the files from one of those drives and delete everything else. Is there any way to just restore a few files from the image in Macrium? If not, how do you recommend I handle that? Can I just restore the 1 drive that contains the files I want or do I have to restore the entire image?

In addition, I ran a scan on the XP drive with WD Data Lifeguard Diagnostics. It didn't find any problems, but I am a bit underwhelmed with the reports issued:










The SMART information also showed no problems and I couldn't re-size the window to show the entire report, so I had to piece together an image that shows all the data:










Being that I was underwhelmed with the above reports, I ran HDDScan and although it didn't find any major problems, it did show some issues and I was able to recreate the exact clicking noise from the drive that I heard, by clicking "Spindown" in the following screenshot:










I don't know what that means, nor do I completely understand the reports from HDDScan. *Do you know how to read the scans and the SMART report from HDDScan?*


----------



## managed (May 24, 2003)

Run Macrium and click on Restore on the top menu > Explore Image
in the new window ensure File type: Image Files is selected
Click the down arrow then click on Browse for folder...
Browse to the _folder _containing the image file you want to use, highlight it then click on Select Folder button
Macrium will populate a window listing all the images in that folder
Tick the box for the image you want to use
tick the box for Enable access to restricted folders
Click OK
A File/Windows explorer window will open showing the image contents
Copy any files you need from that window to a location on a 'real' drive.

The drive is fine. Spindown stopped the motor and then the heads go into standby position which causes the click sound, it's perfectly normal behaviour.


----------



## managed (May 24, 2003)

There is an easier way, just right-click the image-file and choose Explore image !
then continue from the * in previous post


----------



## managed (May 24, 2003)

When finished click on Restore > Detach Image
tick box then click Detach
the drive letter will disappear


----------



## rdkapp (Jan 5, 1999)

managed said:


> There is an easier way, just right-click the image-file and choose Mount image !
> then continue from the * in previous post


Thank you for the "how to." Honestly, I could have done this as the long version is how I was looking through the old images I found. Regarding the shorter ("easier") version, there is no _Mount_ option in the right click menu; however, I have seen that option before. I don't know why there's not right now. Maybe the Macrium install is corrupted as last night I couldn't open any of the Macrium images until I rebooted the computer.


managed said:


> The drive is fine. Spindown stopped the motor and then the heads go into standby position which causes the click sound, it's perfectly normal behaviour.


So, the noise I was hearing the other day was the XP drive spinning down to standby position on its own? I was in Win 10 when I heard it. I only heard it once yesterday outside of HDDScan, but other than that, I'm not hearing it like I did the other day. If that was the drive spinning down to standby position on its own, what causes that? And why do I not hear that from the Data drive (the 1 TB mechanical)?

Anyway, here's the SMART information that shows 1 caution from HDDScan:










I did a little research and found that this caution could be either meaningless or meaningful, but it didn't tell me how to determine which. I'm guessing that because there are no other indications of problems either with Data Lifeguard or HDDScan, then it is likely meaningless. I'm interested in your thoughts on this.


----------



## managed (May 24, 2003)

My mistake it should be --> right-click on image file > *Explore* Image (I corrected it in my previous post)
if that isn't there for you it may have to be set up in the Macrium program, just use the _long version_ for now.

Yes probably the click was the heads parking when the XP drive turned itself off automatically, they do that if not used for a certain length of time.
The clicking you have read about is more or less continuous and that really does mean the drive is on it's way out.

Since the drive passed the WD tests it's working fine, that Smart CRC error is just a tiny glitch.


----------



## rdkapp (Jan 5, 1999)

managed said:


> My mistake it should be --> right-click on image file > *Explore* Image (I corrected it in my previous post)
> if that isn't there for you it may have to be set up in the Macrium program, just use the _long version_ for now.


Ah, and now I remember where I saw the *Mount* option. It was on an image file that was obviously created with some program other than Macrium. The file had a .vhd extension and the Type was _Hard Disk Image File_. When I right-clicked on it, I did get a *Mount* option and it opened up a virtual drive in File Explorer. It ended up being a slightly older version of the same drive(s), which was around the time I was upgrading from Win 7 to Win 10 and had purchased another SSD drive. I think the .vhd extension image may have been something created within Win 7. (?) At the time, I was experimenting with image making and didn't fully understand what I was doing, which is probably why I don't recall doing it. 


managed said:


> Yes probably the click was the heads parking when the XP drive turned itself off automatically, they do that if not used for a certain length of time.
> The clicking you have read about is more or less continuous and that really does mean the drive is on it's way out.


So, just as a test, I opened HDDScan and selected the Data drive (the 1 TB mechanical - a Seagate) and selected "Spindown" and the drive was completely silent. Is this because it's a different manufacturer or because the drive is much newer with improved technology?
I'm definitely familiar with the click of death and that is not what I'm hearing. It's been a single click every so often just like I heard when I clicked "Spindown" in HDDScan. I just didn't know whether that single click could turn into something more serious.


----------



## managed (May 24, 2003)

Did you get the 'Explore image' option ?

*.vhd can be virtual machine files, it's a Micro$oft filetype and stands for Virtual Hard Disk :- https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/VHD_(file_format)

Well since it's not the 'click of death' I wouldn't worry about it. I think older drives might be noisier in general.


----------



## rdkapp (Jan 5, 1999)

managed said:


> Did you get the 'Explore image' option ?


Yes, sorry. I actually got it the first time, when I went looking for "Mount."


----------



## managed (May 24, 2003)

That's ok, just glad you got it.


----------



## rdkapp (Jan 5, 1999)

I believe I have the computer how I want it, so I'm ready to create an image, which I now know how to do after imaging the Win XP drive earlier. However, I have a couple of questions:

1. With Win 10 and most programs on the SSD and most of the data on a separate drive (the 1 TB mechanical), do you recommend imaging both or should I image the SSD and just back up the data drive separately on a regular basis?
2. Is imaging a good way of backing up?

Finally, and on another note, I'm having an issue with my 2 monitors on my newer system never powering off (timing out) and I've even tried the screen saver. And yes, I've looked at the Power Options. Should I start a new thread or can it be handled here?


----------



## managed (May 24, 2003)

I would definitely image the whole SSD, using the 'Image this disk' option in Macrium. You could save the image onto the 1TB drive or an external drive. There is information on an OS drive that simply copying files will not save but an image will include it.

I prefer to make a Macrium restore USB stick and boot to that to make and restore images, it's important to have a way of restoring an image if Windows won't work on the target computer, plus I feel it's somewhat safer to make an image this way, outside of Windows.

You could image the 1TB drive which would serve as a backup but I would recommend making several other backups of important data as well, to be safe, such as burn it to a DVD, copy it to an external drive, etc.

Since it has no connection to this thread I would start a new thread for the monitor issue.


----------

