# Can I copyright/mark my photos before putting them on a website?



## starchild (Sep 17, 2002)

I have been posting photos on an egroup and someone asked if they are copyrighted.

I don't think they're all that great, but some of the egroup have said they enjoy seeing them, and I should put them up on a website. I've been taking pictures and changing them in graphic programs, and taking "odd" pictures, (different lighting, etc).

My first thought would be, if someone thinks they're good and wants to "use" them for anything, that's okay. But, there's also the idea if they're not copyrighted, someone could take them AND copyright them, then I couldn't use them  

I've seen people post on discussion boards and have on the bottom that what they write is copyrighted and can't be used without their permission.

I don't think they apply to the copyright office and get their writting copyrighted, before posting it.

So, does this mean that just putting a statement like this on the website would cover it?

I know it wouldn't stop people from taking and using them, but maybe if I later saw one of my pictures copyrighted, and claimed by someone else, I'd have something to say it was mine?

Also, I know there are ways of getting pictures off website, and "no right click" doesn't really do any good, how could I put something (like my screen name, for example) on the bottom of the picture, lightly- like an outline? So the picture still shows, but the fact it belongs to someone (me) does, too?

I don't mean watermarks that show up if they're printed.

If I remember right, Webshots has their name on the lower corner, lightly.

I have PSP an Photoshop (and probably know about 1/10th of what one can do with them) and know I could put TEXT on, but that would be dark.

I suppose I could use light grey and STENCIL font?

I haven't tried doing this yet. I don't really know much about using layers, either.

Thanks,

Carrie


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## Alex Ethridge (Apr 10, 2000)

I have had to deal with copyright issues in the past as I have had pictures of mine published in about 40 countries; but, that was a different time, when there was no internet or easy digital access to my work. I have several books on copyright issues supposedly written by lawyers and more prolific photojournalists that myself.

Having written that, I will also write that my knowledge of copyright law is all about 20 years old; but, most of what I know still applies.

First: When a picture is made, the latent image is copyrighted as soon as the shutter is released.

Second: You should post copyright notice adjacent to or watermarked into all published images.

Third: You cannot protect yourself from unauthorized use by the many who will pirate your pictures from a web site. It is a practical impossibility. If you do see an unauthorized use, you are legally obligated to preserve your copyright notice by prosecuting the infringer. If you do not take action against the infringer (and soon enough), your copyrighted work goes into the public domain.

This is exactly why Bell Telephone Yellow Pages lost the copyrighted trademark of the walking fingers. They were not agressive soon enough in prosecuting the infringers.

Fourth: Anyone can copy your work into another form and use that work without your consent. Example: I have a life-long friend who was for twenty years or more, the exclusive personal protographers for Bobby, Donnie and Davey Allison. At one time there were posters of water-color-type drawings containing a montage of a half dozen pictures of Donnie Allison, all painted from James Roy's photographs and hanging on the walls of every Hardee's Hamburgers in the United States. There was no doubt about what was done. All the pictures were exact copies except they were in water color instead of photographic print dyes.

There was nothing James could do about any of it. All the pictures had been modified just enough that he had no case.

When I was risking my photographs to publication, the world was different. There was no way to transmit it so freely. In 1985, I transmitted several news pictures to the _Melbourne Times Herald_, in Melbourne, Australia. I had to take the pictures to a local AP affiliate in Birmingham. They put them on a drum and it took about 6 hours to transmit all the pictures. Now, all those pictures can be transmitted in seconds and be stolen by anyone who has a web connection, once published.

These are just some of the issues you must deal with. There is the law that protects your work; but, on the other hand, there is a practical limitation of the resources you can employ to enforce that protection.

The law gives you the right to enforce protection; but, the cost of enforcement is in your lap.

If I had work I wanted to protect, personally, I would not post it on the internet.


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## jjb (Dec 9, 2001)

You no longer have to register for copyright. Technically anything that can be copyrighted is protected from the moment you begin the work. Copyright registration carries some benefit but is not needed. Copyrighted material does not have to carry the copyright seal to be protected under copyright law........................but common sense would tell you that something is hard to prove it is yours without the proper markings.
This is what is recommended:
Example: © 2002 starchild

It can be very small and you could make it somewhat transparent to make it less noticable.

All the information on copyrights in the U.S. can be found here:
http://www.copyright.gov/circs/circ1.html#wci

hope that helps some.

jjb


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## starchild (Sep 17, 2002)

Thanks for the info.

I think my main question in this is/was if I DON'T try and copyright what I do (and might use on a website) and someone else takes it, could they then sue ME for using it? By some stretch of the imagination. And this would imply that what I do is worth wanting to own 

I think the best idea is not to put it on a website in the first place.

Or, the light watermark idea, which I think also looks "professional". But, not as insulting as some of the messages put on the NO RIGHT CLICK boxes that come up! Like "NO NO, don't do that!" (I think this makes people want to take it all the more)

Though a watermark can probably be taken out, with high magnification in a graphics program, it would take time and effort. 

I've been thinking of various projects to do with my pictures, making greeting cards, screensavers (the program I bought for this stopped working and I got bogged down on it) or maybe even calendars. Having them printed and selling them on ebay, or in local tourist shops (I live in a tourist area, Vermont) I keep running into things that cost money 

Aside from someone else claiming them (and then saying I'm using them- if this is possible to do) I don't think trying to hang onto them, to any great extent is worth all the trouble. At least at this point where I'm not making any money from them.

Instead of hanging onto them, I'd rather focus on continuing to do more as I go along.

~ Carrie


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## jjb (Dec 9, 2001)

Well, if I understand your first concern, as long as you have a way of showing original ownership you would have nothing to worry about from someone claiming your work and copyrighting as their own. If you save your work or images to a file the date created and/or modified shows up in the properties window dialog. You may not be able to prove you created the original but you would be able to prove you had possesion of the work before the date the person who is attempting to copyright it................get my drift?
Here are a couple more suggestions.
Place the recommended copyright on your images very small and towards the bottom and save these on your originals. Crop them out before posting somewhere on the web and then add a footnote if you can someplace.............
Example: If you posted a pic here you could add a footnote in the post something like........................
_This posted image is protected under U.S. Copyright laws._ If you don't mind the image being used you might add something like..................
_but may be reproduced without prior consent of the owner_
If you do a web page or complete layout someplace add a line in small fonts in a bottom corner that reads............
_All images and content of this webpage are protected under U.S. Copyright laws._

Another thing you could do is resize and compress your images so they are ok for web viewing but if anyone tried to enlarge them or print them they would be very poor quality.....................then they would have to ask for a copy in original form if they really want it that bad 

One last comment. I don't know much about watermarks but I thought I read someplace that they can be made invisable and unremovable. Encrypted in the data I believe and can't be removed without damage. I also believe copyright and owner information can be included in the watermark.

Hope I helped and eased your mind some...................Oh................and one other thing. Keep in mind that this is the worldwide web, ©and copyright laws are U.S. copyright laws and may not apply or be accepted in all parts of the world 

jjb


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## acraftylady (Jan 22, 2003)

Here's my experience and I think I have posted this before. I know anything I don't want anyone to use or steal in anyway I don't put on the net anymore. I was sharing photos with a nice group of people in an AOL photo group and someone unknown to us came and copied some of my pictures and used it on their website in AOL hometown and then tormented and harassed me about it. After the fraud department at AOL investigated and saw the photos were mine and what was going on they got their account terminated and the pages were yanked by AOL. I have since learned to sign my name on the photos and I put the copy right symbol and the year, I figure that's better than doing nothing. I also put a no right click code on my page but the computer experts know how to get around that but I find that the non expert thinks they can't grab the photo in anyway if they see that. That's my experience on this, Mary!


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## hewee (Oct 26, 2001)

You best way to protect you image online is really to slice it up so then the only way for anyone to get the image is to take a screen shot of it.


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## starchild (Sep 17, 2002)

Very good answers and feedback!

I will copy it and comment further tomorrow.... right now I'm just checking in and it's past midnight. As usual, I seem to "get going" late at night and hate to give in and go to bed.

But, then I'll hate to get up in the morning. 

~ Carrie


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## Alex Ethridge (Apr 10, 2000)

Registration of the photos with the copyright office will show proof of ownership and an irrefutable date. Digital data file dates can be changed; that affords you no proof.

Each copyrighted work has a fee for registration. If one had that fee to pay for each photograph, it would in most cases be prohibitive. The way we used to do it was to make a collage of twenty or so photographs, hang it on a wall and photograph it. Repeat that process until we had all the photographs rephotographed in twenty-picture pages untill we had all done we wanted registered. At that point we would bind them all into a book and register the entire book with one registration fee. At that time (circa 1985), the fee was under $20 if I remember correctly.

That registration process establishes your ownership and a date you registered them.

As for lawsuits, anyone can file one for about any reason. Proving the allegation(s) is the key point. Example: I go down to my county courthouse tomorrow and file a lawsuit against someone I picked out of the phone book, claiming he had damaged some piece of property of mine--let's say my car. If he doesn't show up to defend himself, I win and after 30 days or so the judgment is final. I could then execute against his property and take posession of something of his to pay the judgment.

In the event he does show, I could be in serious trouble unless I could explain satisfactorily to the court why I made a "mistake".

The point is, anyone can file a lawsuit against anyone else for about any reason, even frivolous ones.


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## photolady (May 5, 2004)

To protect my images/photographs on the net, I use a simple statement at the bottom of the front page that states: All photographs on this site are (C) Copyright, of Portraits of Nature and may not be reproduced without written permission of the photographer. Then each photo has my studio name, with copyright symbol and date. It doesn't deter those who insist on stealing my photos but it covers me in the event I find them, and decide to sue. If you need to sue someone, your best bet is to find a copyright lawyer. They know the laws better than anyone.


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## starchild (Sep 17, 2002)

Thanks for all the good info.

I think if it came down to having to sue someone for using a photo I took, I wouldn't bother.

I was just thinking that someone could take one, copyright it and then sue me for using it 

I've seen so many picutures on the internet, even in free graphics collections, that I've also seen on pages saying they are copyright and not to be used.

I think we should just assume if anyone wants it they will take it.

And maybe consider it a compliment.

I like the idea of putting a name on them (lightly, on the bottom) though it can be cropped out and also airbrushed out (with some time and work).

~ Carrie


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## sunnidaze2k (Apr 29, 2004)

I realize I am out of my league here...but I put a copyright notice on my work as well as just disabling the right click function ~ not an impossible take but will deter some and make others work for it...

I've also seen "SAMPLE" stamped across the picture which renders it unusable but that destroys the effect (in my opinion)


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## acraftylady (Jan 22, 2003)

When I make pages in AOL hometown I use a no right click code but you can still drag the picture off the screen and it will pop up in the AOL picture viewer and you can save from there. It will even do this on some pages made on the net that have a no right click warning. I have seen pages where this would not work at all and I would like to know where to get a good code like that or how that is accomplished. I don't know much about this stuff but the code I use is probablly too simple and I need something more sofisticated I guess.


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## jjb (Dec 9, 2001)

*acraftylady* I don't know a real lot about code or what it is you use now but I did a google search under "no right click code" and it showed results for numerous code formats. Take a look to see if you can find what you are looking for.

jjb


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## acraftylady (Jan 22, 2003)

Thanks I have a right disable code now but I need someone to tell me where to get one that is more secure than what I am using. I wish I had an example but I have been on pages where you can't right click drag off the page or anything and I don't know how they do that. Here is what I am using now and when you right click you get a little message saying no right click allowed or something like that but you can still drag the photo off the page into the AOL browswer and it will come up in the AOL picture viewer and you save from there, don't know about other browsers but it can be done in AOL. A few sites I have noticed will not let you do this at all and that's what I want to learn. I will have to search around for a page to give an example.


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## photolady (May 5, 2004)

I know in other browsers, such as IE, one can view source code and still get your photos.  I had one joined a javascript newsletter type thing and they mentioned using a transparent layer used over photos to keep people from stealing your photos/graphics, but I have since moved and lost the favorite I had for that site. I'll see if I can still find it, if you're interested in something like this.


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## sunnidaze2k (Apr 29, 2004)

I dont know about AOL but this is the code I use...and unless you search in the back door ... you dont pull anything off


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## acraftylady (Jan 22, 2003)

Thank you I will try that code. I know about viewing the source code and I think I have been on sites where the source code won't even show, I didn't realize you could still get the photos by viewing the source code so I learned someting there.


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## acraftylady (Jan 22, 2003)

OK, I just tried the code you gave me and it does the same as I am using now. It says function disabled but I can drag it off the page into the AOL browser and it comes up in the AOL picture viewer and I can save it from there. Let me see if I can find an example of a page I am not able to do this with using AOL, I know I have been on some before and wondered what they used so I couldn't drag or anything.


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## moebius (Oct 7, 2003)

use a java applet to anchor pictures - but beware java applets load *slow*


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## starchild (Sep 17, 2002)

Just getting back to this.

I've used NO RIGHT CLICK on pictures (when someone I made a website for wanted this). But, that (and not showing source code) doesn't really work. It's so easy just to do a screen capture.

Also, when I used the NO RIGHT CLICK I did not put anything flip and rude in it! I hate when people do this, like "no no don't even think about it!" or something about not stealing their picture. I put "this and all artwork is owned by (name of artist) If you'd like information about purchasing prints, please email..."

I have come to the conclusiong that the best way to handle this is to make the pictures on the website rather small and low resolution. That way if they are enlarged they aren't good quality. Same with printing.

The art site I made (for the person who wanted to sell printes) had thumbnails and then BIG full size pictures when clicked. Of course, he was also showing off his art talent, an wanted details to show.

Not sure what would be the best size/resolution for this? 

That, and the light "name" on the bottom of the picture seems like would be enough.

I don't really want to get into trying to prevent all use of pictures, just discouraging anyone from taking them, claiming them, and then possibly saying *I* was using their picture.

You never know.

It's an interesting topic, and I learned a lot.

Like changing what's used for the picture (making an oil painting of someone's photo, for example) and that being okay to use.

I've seen greeting cards (the kind you get in the mail and are supposed to send a donation for) that have pictures on them, that look like water colors, I've also seen online, as real, copyrighted (and for sale) prints.

Unless they get permission to use them for the cards. They don't have a notice of this.

This means I could find someone's photo online and change it to an oil painting or poster (in PhotoShop, etc) and it would then be MINE?

~ Carrie


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## photolady (May 5, 2004)

Usually what I do with those photos I post on the web, is scan them in, resize using pixel width/height, then change the dpi to 72, after that when I save them, their .jpg's and no one can enlarge to a suitable/printable size. As for greeting card photos, most, if not all, the greeting card company holds the copyright on these and since they are widely distributed, I assume they are fair use photos. So far I have not found any real way to deter those who insist on copying my photos, so what I usually do is not post those I would consider money photos. I just post those that are quality prints and then state I have others. If they want to see them, I tell them to email me and I'll send them a copy. Of course these would be the same quality or non quality so they couldn't print them.


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## starchild (Sep 17, 2002)

Thanks, PhotoLady

You're saying you put samples on a website and people ask you for others and then (possibly) buy them from you?

Is this an actual business one can get into?

I have a lot of photos, and a lot scenic (sky, clouds, different seasons) but I don't have a really good, epxensive camera.

So, I don't know if I could sell pictures to be inlarged for any reason.

What I've thought of to use them for is screensavers (trying to find a good, affordable program to make them. I bought ACez screen saver builder last year, but it stopped working, and the person selling it didn't seem to be much help in finding out why), having greeting cards printed to sell on ebay (or local tourist shops, I live in a tourist state (Vermont). Or, what..? Right now it's taking up my mind, taking pictures and I'm using them to learn some of the graphic programs.

I've also thought of the idea of making the photos into paintings (and/or posters, some look good like that) using PhotoShop. This would also make up for not having a really good camera. 

I think they come out good, for posting on the web, and maybe smaller size prints.

I usually redice them to 72 or so anyway, just to make them easier to put on a page, or email, etc.

In a way, it can be a compliment if someone wants to use my pictures 

~ Carrie


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## photolady (May 5, 2004)

There is a lot to setting up a business that more involved than just printing photos and selling them. First you need clients/customers. My suggestion would be to scout your area, see how many photographers live or work there or both. What you need is a gimic, something no one else has tried to sell. If there is a market for your photos then all you need is materials and possibly a license to sell them. My business is registered with my state, but I went to a lot of trouble getting started. The area I lived in previously was also a tourist town, and many artists lived there. It was hard to compete with them as they were already established by the time I came along. So do your research then see if you still have a market for your photos. This will save you money and time. 

If you do have a market and still want to try this, what I did was build a website, put what photos I thought were semi great, then as I said before, if anyone saw something they liked they could email me, and I'd send them others to look at. What worked for me the most was I saved several good quality photos on a cd, jpg'd so they couldn't copy them, then they emailed me back what photos they wanted. I sold quite a few this way. I have photos hanging on walls all over the country, including a few in State Parks.


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## starchild (Sep 17, 2002)

I have another question about this, and copyrighting, etc.

I've been looking online (google images search) to find pictures to use with Photoshop- I'm learning effects, etc.

They probably won't ever go any further than my computer.

But, I've noticed on a few of the pages the photos (that come up in search) are on, they not only say "copyright" but some say something like "no reproducution, digitially manipluating, changing to other media, etc allowed". And that anyone they found had done this WOULD BE PROSECUTED!

Somewhere (a few days ago) someone told me that taking a photo and reproducing it in my own way (like making a water color of it) can't and isn't covered by copyrights. Because I'm making it into MY artistic creation, using a different media.

Does this apply to using effects in Photoshop, etc?

Also, I saw one picture of a lake near where I live. I could go to the lake and stand in the same place and take the exact same picture. yet the picture I saw of it was "copyrighted". If I were to go take the same picture, and (for example) make it into an oil painting with Photoshop, it would look like I had done this with the first person's picture. 

I'm sure I'm not the only person who has stood in the same place and taken the same view of this lake!

How does this relate to copyrighting?

I can see how someone wouldn't want anyone else taking a photo they had taken, and putting it on a webpage, (or somehow using it to make money) claiming it was their OWN photo.

But, other than that, seems like taking a picture of the same lake, in the same way, and changing it to something else, would be kind of a "grey area" as to the law.

I know there are dates on files, but someone pointed out that isn't really proof who actually took the picture, when because they can be changed.

What if I'm driving along and take a scenic picture and use it in some way, and someone else says they took the same picture, and copyrighted it?

How can you copyright a "view"?

~ Carrie


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## photolady (May 5, 2004)

Anytime you take someone else's photos, it's against copyright laws. No matter what your friend says. And no mattter what you do with it, you're still violating copyright laws on those photos and the owner of them. 

Views are not copyrighted, it's the medium used. And you can't take the exact same photo, someone else took because a lot of other aspects come into play. IE, time of day, time of year, time of moment. Like this: shadows change, sunshine changes, leaves change. There is simply no way you can take the same exact picture that someone else takes because of the aspects as I mentioned above. A lot of things come into play when taking and processing photos. To take the same photo someone else has taken you would have to be standing in the exact same spot as the person taking the photo at the same time the person took the photo. And of course, you would have to have the same camera, same medium and same process of creating that photo. Simply put, impossible to do. Period.


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## acraftylady (Jan 22, 2003)

A long time ago I came across a site www.freefoto.com and it says the photos are free to private non-commercial users and for sale to other users so maybe this woud give you some pictures to play around with.


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## photolady (May 5, 2004)

For a site like that, that acraftylady posted, the problem still exists as far as copyright goes. I see she says for *non commercial users, and for sale to other users* but.....one still can't manipulate them to use as their own. Commercially that is. You can use them to learn digital art, but you can not digitize them, then sell them as your own.


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## boing (Jan 26, 2003)

Hi, Greetings from Washington State... I have to put my two bits in.
I've had people pirate and rob my hand made avatars and even my
photos and I know it can be really frustrating after you've spent hours
and sometimes days making an image. This is what I've done to back up
the copyright..... I superimpose an almost transparent image of my little
blue mousie icon with the words " Lil' Blue Mousie" next to it. It's easy to
do with paint shop pro or photoshop and it just helps in preventing the printing of the product. To make it a bit more difficult I put the icon and words in diagonal and near center of the picture. Either way .. if somebody
wants it for their personal use , they'll take it. I like taking and sharing some photos so I do nothing to them at all. As soon as I'm allowed and as soon as I learn how... I'll add my little mousie as my icon for this sight.
Have Fun.... that's the main thing.


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