# Solved: The Pirate Bay Trial



## RootbeaR

What a joke.

2nd day sees half of the charges dropped as they are not applicable.
How long did they have to prepare for this trial?

"How To Kill The Music Industry

During The Pirate Bay trial, the music industry placed the blame for the decline in their revenues squarely on the shoulders of file-sharers. Their logic is clearly flawed, but it could sway the verdict if no alternative explanation is presented. So, if piracy isn't to blame, then what is *actually* killing the music industry?

According to Per Sundin, CEO of Universal Music, the decline in music revenues in the past 8 years can be fully attributed to (read: blamed on) illegal file sharing. If this were actually true, many of us might even respect his decision to go after pirates as fiercely as the music industry is doing right now. However, the past 8 years have seen a lot more changes in the landscape of home entertainment than Per Sundin would like to admit, and some of those changes have had a massive impact on music profitability - much more so than any amount of piracy.

Let us refresh our memories and take a look at what actually happened during and just before the past 8 years:
1. First, the explosive rise of computer and console gaming. This competitive 'third element' has appeared in the entertainment landscape, beaten both music and movies to the curb and taken a huge cut out of the music industry's revenues. Consumers don't have infinitely-deep pockets, and billions of 'recreation dollars' that used to go almost exclusively to music, are now going into gaming."
http://torrentfreak.com/how-to-kill-the-music-industry-090227/


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## lawson_jl

I would like to also submit that a lack of quailty music is to blame as well. I remember back in the day (early 90's) when I bought a CD I would listen to most songs on the disc. Lately I can't think of the last CD where I like all the songs on the disc. Alot of the time I only like 1 or 2 songs on the CD. Makes it hard for me to want to go out and buy a CD without hearing it first. Why shouldn't I just buy the 1 or 2 tracks I like from Amazon or iTunes? Also isn't it great how the price of CDs keep going up and up as well. Maybe this is just me but when the RIAA talks about music sales they typically say CD sales. Well of course CD sales are going to go down. Who wants a CD anyway, you just have to rip it to put it on your MP3 players so why not get it digital in the first place?


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## scurry

http://www.entertainingcode.com/archives/a-trial-a-spectacle-a-marketing-disaster/

Someone from the video game side of things, comforting to see them taking a completely different approach


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## RootbeaR

scurry said:


> http://www.entertainingcode.com/archives/a-trial-a-spectacle-a-marketing-disaster/
> 
> Someone from the video game side of things, comforting to see them taking a completely different approach


Nice article. :up:


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## RootbeaR

Closing argument:

"The police can't possibly go after all TPB's users and the defendants are therefore responsible for the whole damage claim, he argued, adding that they are free to claim money from their users."


If a law is not enforceable, is it a law?

Or just an attempt to manufacture criminals?

Edit: Is it up to the police to send infringement and takedown notices?

This is civil, not criminal.


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## Noyb

I wonder .. did someone use Pirate Bay to pass on a Virus ..
then use it to kill Pirate Bay Monday ??
If so ... That's funny ... http://tv.sys-con.com/node/860302


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## RootbeaR

Noyb said:


> I wonder .. did someone use Pirate Bay to pass on a Virus ..
> then use it to kill Pirate Bay Monday ??
> If so ... That's funny ... http://tv.sys-con.com/node/860302


Actually, it was fixed remotely, by one of the four in the courtroom, during the trial, from his laptop.

That's even more comical.

He posted it on twitter.


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## tomdkat

My brother and I both think the music industry is missing a huge opportunity here and that opportunity is in resurrection of music that is currently out of print. If the master archives of the recording labels could be digitized, individual "classics" could be sold for a reasonable price and that could be another source of revenue. Of course royalty issues might have to be resolved but people could be making something on music that is probably currently generating those same people nothing.

Peace...


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## Elvandil

tomdkat said:


> My brother and I both think the music industry is missing a huge opportunity here and that opportunity is in resurrection of music that is currently out of print. If the master archives of the recording labels could be digitized, individual "classics" could be sold for a reasonable price and that could be another source of revenue. Of course royalty issues might have to be resolved but people could be making something on music that is probably currently generating those same people nothing.
> 
> Peace...


That's a good idea and point.

Things change and the music industry doesn't seem to realize that. When something is done by the majority of people, or even a large percentage, making laws against that activity is doomed to failure. Prohibition.

The music industry needs to stop trying to beat them and instead join them. The guys selling gas-lights and Victrolas would probably love to sue someone, too.


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## tomdkat

Elvandil said:


> Things change and the music industry doesn't seem to realize that. When something is done by the majority of people, or even a large percentage, making laws against that activity is doomed to failure. Prohibition.


I don't think I agree with this. The claims of "copyright infringement" involve existing copyright laws and I don't think the RIAA is trying to enforce new laws created _after_ people started engaging in the unauthorized electronic distribution of digital music. People aren't "entitled" to do things simply because current technology makes it possible.

I don't believe piracy is the #1 or sole factor behind slow or sluggish CD sales but I also believe they've been desperately holding on to an outdated business model for reasons I don't understand. iTunes sales _alone_ should be enough to convince the labels to look at publishing their archives. I mean they pay the *one-time* cost of doing a high-quality digital conversion of music in their archives and they can sell copies with 0 manufacturing costs and the only distribution costs will be bandwidth. If they use content distribution networks (CDNs) to distribute the purchased music, they can even minimize bandwidth costs.

Oh well, maybe they'll figure it out eventually or maybe they won't. 

Peace...


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## RootbeaR

Not me.

"The music industry," read RIAA, is a middle man we no longer need.

I am looking at torrents as a way of exercising my rights regarding all my purchased licenses.

Look here to see what I mean:
http://forums.techguy.org/random-discussion/804891-cd-dvd-audio-video-discs.html

Copyright needs to go back to its original life. Not originators life + 1,000 years.

I would love to build a house one day, and only for one day, then sit back and collect royalties for the rest of my life and then pass those rights on to my grandchildren.

I will take shelter over any song or any "artists" entire collection of songs.

If you're ONLY in it for the money …
http://www.p2pnet.net/story/18679

What The RIAA Efforts Have Really Been About: Controlling Channels
http://www.techdirt.com/articles/20090301/1512023936.shtml


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## tomdkat

RootbeaR said:


> Not me.
> 
> "The music industry," read RIAA, is a middle man we no longer need.
> 
> I am looking at torrents as a way of exercising my rights regarding all my purchased licenses.
> 
> Look here to see what I mean:
> http://forums.techguy.org/random-discussion/804891-cd-dvd-audio-video-discs.html


Thanks for that link. I disagree with pyritechips in that thread but I don't have time to get into it now. 

I'll be back later. 

Peace...


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## RootbeaR

tomdkat said:


> Thanks for that link. I disagree with pyritechips in that thread but I don't have time to get into it now.
> 
> I'll be back later.
> 
> Peace...


Then perhaps you can answer my questions in that thread when you have time.

Also check out other above links.


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## Elvandil

tomdkat said:


> I don't think I agree with this. The claims of "copyright infringement" involve existing copyright laws and I don't think the RIAA is trying to enforce new laws created _after_ people started engaging in the unauthorized electronic distribution of digital music. People aren't "entitled" to do things simply because current technology makes it possible.
> 
> I don't believe piracy is the #1 or sole factor behind slow or sluggish CD sales but I also believe they've been desperately holding on to an outdated business model for reasons I don't understand. iTunes sales _alone_ should be enough to convince the labels to look at publishing their archives. I mean they pay the *one-time* cost of doing a high-quality digital conversion of music in their archives and they can sell copies with 0 manufacturing costs and the only distribution costs will be bandwidth. If they use content distribution networks (CDNs) to distribute the purchased music, they can even minimize bandwidth costs.
> 
> Oh well, maybe they'll figure it out eventually or maybe they won't.
> 
> Peace...


Don't get me wrong. I'm not defending piracy by any means. And I think these companies and the arttists deserve to get paid for what they do.

I was addressing more the absolutely ridiculous expenditure of time and resources going after a handful of the millions of "criminals" that download music, just to make examples of them in an effort to scare people into compliance. These tactics have led more than a few people i know to decide they would never purchase CD's or DVD's again. Does the news that some single mother, scraping by on a dead-end job, and then being prosecuted because her children downloaded music, really contribute to the greater good?

They just need to look at alternatives.


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## RootbeaR

"Yongdae Kim shoots down RIAA inexpert experts

A miscreant wishing to cover his or her tracks on the Internet has many options, the most likely of which is direct exploitation of one or more computers owned by a third party. Those computers can then be used for activity that the malicious party would not want linked to his or her Internet account. The average uninfected "life expectancy" of an Internet-connected computer running the Microsoft Windows XP operating system without any security updates ("patches") is as low as 4 minutes [15]. Since all Windows XP systems attempt to connect to the Internet immediately upon installation/first boot, and since it requires some time to download all security updates from Microsoft (which, for a newly-installed Windows XP system, can measure in gigabytes, with a typical Internet connection only capable of handling a few megabytes per second), it would not be surprising that any given Internet-connected Windows XP computer be infected with any number of pieces of "malware" (software malicious to the user of the computer on which it is installed)."
http://www.p2pnet.net/story/18686


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## MDenver

Good article that does hold some truth, but I agree with the record companies (even when I don't like them), the biggest loss comes from pirated music, it doesn't take a rocket scientist to know that just by looking around.

Let's not all act holy and pretend not to have a single illegal MP3 file at home...sigh

Seriously, there is a reason why Pirate Bay is popular (like many others) and why some of the warez forums I know (that also have tons of music) have close to or over 1 million members (I'm not kidding!) and belong to the largest sites in the world! There is a reason why file storage sites like rapidshare are so big and belong to the largest in the world too!

Don't act as if none of that largely influences sales, I don't believe a word of that. Mind you, I'm not saying that everything what these people download would be stuff that they normally would have bought, I'm just saying that it does have a major influence on their music spending, heck, I see it all around me, family, friends, at work, you name it. Of course, it's so easy to make the rich record companies look like the bad guys and not the poor(?) John and Joe...sigh

Whether Pirate Bay's activities affects sales should not even be an issue (and the one who wrote the article obviously doesn't get that), the issue should be whether Pirate Bay is doing something that is illegal, period. We live in society that is held together by rules and laws for a good reason! Now it's sound like driving 80 where 50 is allowed and then telling the officer; "Hey it's very late at night, there is nobody on the road, it's perfectly safe to drive 80!" or the argument I heard on Photoshop forums many times "If Adobe wouldn't make Photoshop so expensive, I wouldn't be stealing it!".

C'mon hey...


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## IMiteBable2help

RootbeaR said:


> ..If a law is not enforceable, is it a law?


It's still a law, of course. But one which is NULL. I don't mean in computer programmer terms, I mean the original English meaning of the word. "Null"


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## lighthouse

Someone ought to tell this - and other Record Bosses - that it's their Business Practices that killed Music (or to be exact - their Music Business - because Music existed long before the Music Biz ever did). They carry on like a Cartel - stifle the life out of Creativity and the lives of those involved (and even those who aren't), and everything that made it worthwhile no longer exists. Their P.R sucks spectacularly, their Control Freakery is even worse, and the decline of their Fortunes in the last 8 Years correlates with much of what else has happened in that time. You can't blame the advent of Computers for it - like you couldn't the Cassette Player/Recorder - they're just looking for an excuse to scapegoat someone for their own excesses and ham fisted stupidity! If MP3 and Windows Media Audio etc is supposed to be damaging the Industry - or Music - or Peoples enjoyment of it - why do we now have the Download Festivals every Year? Ask yourselves this..................why did Ronan O'Rahilly establish Radio Caroline...................whose appearance as a Pirate Radio Station did more for Music (and thus the Radio Industry) than any EMI/Decca Shenanigans ever did before?

I look at the Social and Creative Rape the Music Business Committed on this Town and what they do in the interests of Corporate Prestige rather than Aesthetic in the 90s as an example of how horrible they are


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## IMiteBable2help

Yeah, really. When I was a teen, I couldn't afford CD's. They were close to $30 each and a CD player was at least $300. I could barely afford pre-recorded cassettes, but I could afford BLANK cassettes. So, I bought blank cassettes and a $150 dual-cassette "boom box" and I would just record entire "album sides" all weekend long off of the radio, onto cassettes. Radio stations would play entire album sides without interruption all weekend long. I didn't hear any complaints about piracy back then. In fact, it was a normal practice to record off of the radio. I was recording music that I enjoyed, but couldn't afford. The record companies lost NOTHING from me, because even if I couldn't record them legally off of the air, I still wouldn't have bought them from the music store because I didn't have that kind of money. A few years later I was old enough to get a job, but it was minimum wage, just over $3 an hour. Pleeeeze. And why get a dual-cassette stereo? So you could copy cassette tapes of course!


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## RootbeaR

MDenver said:


> Let's not all act holy and pretend not to have a single illegal MP3 file at home...sigh


That is like saying everytime I go to the store I slip something in my pocket.

Do you?


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## Noyb

Before the RIAA got so upset about file sharing 
I knew many who were downloading music just because they could .. and it was an interesting hobby.
They would NOT have paid to get this music .. Even if they could have got a single selection at a descent price.
My stepson .. Would download music, and If he heard something he liked .. he would go buy the CD to get the original quality.

Then the RIAA got all upset and quoted all the millions of dollars they were loosing to all the downloads.
I saw this as Funny numbers  Or Cooking the Books.
Something the USA Execs seem to be good at.

I got the picture that all the RIAA execs were too busy on the Golf course or their Yachts ... 
Spending their hard earned millions .. to see the internet coming ... 
or were reluctant to provide a descent product at a descent price.

All this was an effort to shut down file sharing so they could take it over
Kinda like the horse is already out .. How do we shut the gate now ??
Sure .. It may be Illegal .. But didnt they promote this ?? 

Later .. I saw an interview with the CEO of Toyota.
They ask him if his goal was to become #1
He said NO  All they wanted to do was provide a great car at a descent price.

I thought to myself  You Stupid Idiot .. What did you think would happen ??


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## aka Brett

180 channels big screen tv,,,, makes music less interesting
High speed internet....Internet....also better than music
Music store you dont really have what i want...got to get it somwhere.
Gaming hmmm ...I thinka gamer would rather game anyday that listen to music.

Although I am sure that file sharing doesnt help with sales.
the biggest loss is because there are merely better ways to spend you time as compared to prior years.


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## lighthouse

t's about time this Company got some scrutiny...........................

I remember what seemed to happen here in the early 90s (might have even been before that - but I almost lived at the Beeb in Bristol for 3 Years so wasn't aware of what was happening). The amount of Industry Patronage at that time was subliminal - but noticeable, and it's like the Town was owned by them. (when I say them I mean the UK Part Polygram, that was later Bought by Seagram; and then Universal). What is horrible about it is that it completely distorts the life of a Community - and those in it. What it has done to me is awful - and I get peeved because by the time the Process has finished what's going to be left?

I can tell you that - after living here through the 90s and seeing first hand what all those Companies do - every bit of Criticism s thoroughly justified. Because of their Malarkey and what they do in the name of Rock and Roll - to People in it, or associated with it, it's the Industry killing Music and some Peoples enthusiam for it not Music Fans with their Ipods, Discman or Windows Media Player. Musc can exist wthout the Industry but then Industry can't without Music!


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## aka Brett

Kid rocks viewpoint


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## IMiteBable2help

brett888 said:


> 180 channels big screen tv,,,, makes music less interesting
> High speed internet....Internet....also better than music
> Music store you dont really have what i want...got to get it somwhere.
> Gaming hmmm ...I thinka gamer would rather game anyday that listen to music.
> 
> ...the biggest loss is because there are merely better ways to spend you time as compared to prior years.


I think you're onto something there. But the music industry would rather waste the courts time convincing them that all their revenue declines are caused by file sharing/P2P downloads. Even if all illegal sharing of music could be stopped, It wouldn't make enough of a difference to put them back at the profit levels they once enjoyed. No way. No how.


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## lighthouse

Now we have the attention of the Companies head Honcho perhaps he could explain what his Polygram era Subsideries were up to around here throughout most of the last Decade. It's one thing to record and release a bunch of Records - another entirely to control freak the Community - as has happened for at least 15 Years - just so the next batch of dubious Product can be almost guarenteed. Perhaps he'd like to get one of his Proxies - and some of them are local - to have a chat about this. I do my socialising in a Cafe - not a Toilet - and it's a bit difficult to get any sense out of anyone while they dash about doing shopping or something!

If anything is killing Music - or any Incentive to want to do it - it's what has been happening here since (insert relevant date).


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## lighthouse

IMiteBable2help said:


> Yeah, really. When I was a teen, I couldn't afford CD's. They were close to $30 each and a CD player was at least $300. I could barely afford pre-recorded cassettes, but I could afford BLANK cassettes. So, I bought blank cassettes and a $150 dual-cassette "boom box" and I would just record entire "album sides" all weekend long off of the radio, onto cassettes. Radio stations would play entire album sides without interruption all weekend long. I didn't hear any complaints about piracy back then. In fact, it was a normal practice to record off of the radio. I was recording music that I enjoyed, but couldn't afford. The record companies lost NOTHING from me, because even if I couldn't record them legally off of the air, I still wouldn't have bought them from the music store because I didn't have that kind of money. A few years later I was old enough to get a job, but it was minimum wage, just over $3 an hour. Pleeeeze. And why get a dual-cassette stereo? So you could copy cassette tapes of course!


And what 'Control Freaks are us' Record Execs forget is that this is a brilliant form of Promotion. Yeah, you might not have been able to afford the CDs/Equipment at the time but when or if you did you then Buy those Taped Albums - and probably other Records by the same Groups. Similarly, if you get a WMA/MP3 Tune from one of the myriad Sites available - and you like it - you then Google for the Band - find they have a Website - and are selling Music via it, which means you then buy even more stuff by the Band. Oh, and yeah - the Tape to Tape machine/DIN Sockets on Stereos aren't there to make Tea or do the washing up with are they!

And something for the Eco People too............................

a Single is released on a CD (you get 3, maybe 4 Songs on it), it charts, sells 100s of 1000s - and then that's it, and this happens with 40 - 50 Records every Week, so how much stuff is used to make the CD, Inlay and Jewel Case for all these Records - and what is the cumulative resource consumptive Effect of this every Year? Doesn't it make more sense to have digitally transferred Music instead that just uses a nano-bit of Electricity and some Disc Space on your HD?

Also, the Advent of Downloadable Music now means you have a more representative Music Scene - or potentially do - because even if you aren't signed to one of these huge Companies - but enough people have downloaded your Music to merit an Appearance at the Download Festival - you get to play live to a big Audience without having to surrender your Creativity to some dubiously motivated Corporation.

The fact is that Technology has meant the almost cartel-like Grip the Record Companies have had for Decades is coming to an end and they don't like it - and/or are incapable of adapting to it. if they are the Free-Market Economicists they are then this is another Aspect of the Free-Market isn't it?!?! I'm not advocating doing something Illegal but the Technolgy is there - and People are going to use it. As Pirate Radio did more for Music than the established Companies/Media of that time (1964), and the Radio Industry then perhaps this might do as much in the 21st century!


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## RootbeaR

"No Doubt: Buy A Concert Ticket, Download All Our Songs

Slowly, but surely, more bands are starting to figure it out: *the music is free*. Whether they want to believe it or not, the actual music is free, so you might as well get it out there and then focus on _selling scarcities_. The latest example (which a ton of you have sent in), is the band No Doubt, who is giving away their entire catalog of music as a download, for folks who buy certain concert tickets."
http://www.techdirt.com/articles/20090304/1644373993.shtml


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## aka Brett

What gets me is in many many countries it is not illegal.
but here in the states we seem to make a big deal out of it.
The cry baby groups always whining as usual


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## lighthouse

RootbeaR said:


> "No Doubt: Buy A Concert Ticket, Download All Our Songs
> 
> Slowly, but surely, more bands are starting to figure it out: *the music is free*. Whether they want to believe it or not, the actual music is free, so you might as well get it out there and then focus on _selling scarcities_. The latest example (which a ton of you have sent in), is the band No Doubt, who is giving away their entire catalog of music as a download, for folks who buy certain concert tickets."
> http://www.techdirt.com/articles/20090304/1644373993.shtml


Yeah, and good for them too! This not only promotes live Music but also means that the huge Mark-up the Companies get (the Cost being passed on to the Fans) no longer exists.

Then of course perhaps the Record Companies should get some decent Groups for a change. How many of the last 15 Years of Muzak is particularly memorable? Stop giving crappy Soap Stars - influentally disproportionate to talent - Record Deals!


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## lighthouse

I'd love to see one of these Companies be the first Creative Economics Victim of the Recession!!!!! The more Cyber warfare against them the better! Exploitative scum they are! What they did here was completely unforgiveable!


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## IMiteBable2help

Wow. Somebody hold yoda (lighthouse) back. Alright, who started this? you got him going, and now I can feel myself floating in the air, about to fly towards the sun, 'cause yoda is pissed. You don't mess with the force!

JK.


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## lighthouse

They're awful People!!!! The Film Industry isn't much better (if they ever were). That's why a Bunch of Actors formed U.A - to combat a similar situation the Record Companies have created. It meant that the horrible Studio System that existed before no longer had the Monopoly on Talent (or what it would lavish Favour on) or Ideas, it would free up the Creative Process and try and offset the Damage being done to those at the broken end of the SS Bottle! There comes a time when circumstances mean someone takes affirmative action - whether it's Ronan O'Rahilly, Ormsby Gore, some of the Indie Record companies or the Internet Music Providers of today!

(sigh) If only a certain NYC Senator could read this - and connect it to a time - many Years ago - when her Family ran the US.


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## RootbeaR

lighthouse said:


> They're awful People!!!! The Film Industry isn't much better (if they ever were). That's why a Bunch of Actors formed U.A - to combat a similar situation the Record Companies have created. It meant that the horrible Studio System that existed before no longer had the Monopoly on Talent (or what it would lavish Favour on) or Ideas, it would free up the Creative Process and try and offset the Damage being done to those at the broken end of the SS Bottle! There comes a time when circumstances mean someone takes affirmative action - whether it's Ronan O'Rahilly, Ormsby Gore, some of the Indie Record companies or the Internet Music Providers of today!
> 
> (sigh) If only a certain NYC Senator could read this - and connect it to a time - many Years ago - when her Family ran the US.


You might appreciate this one then that backfired on them.

"Sita Sings the Blues... Available For Free Download

...Thus, she's realized that she cannot make any money from the movie and is instead giving it away for free under a Creative Commons Share-Alike license.

Still, now that the agreements are signed -- even though she doesn't have all the funds to pay the fees yet (she's still raising money) -- she is apparently able to release the movie with just the agreements. Rich now alerts us that, despite the restrictions on some of the music, Nina has put up a full website for the movie which links to an Internet Archive page where you can stream it or download it in a variety of formats. And, of course, she's set it up to be downloaded via BitTorrent, as well."
http://www.techdirt.com/articles/20090305/0218454004.shtml

Now I'm confused. _Since bittorrent is strictly for stealing copyright works_.

Won't she have to remove it as no one is stealing it?


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## aka Brett

lighthouse said:


> I'd love to see one of these Companies be the first Creative Economics Victim of the Recession!!!!! The more Cyber warfare against them the better! Exploitative scum they are! What they did here was completely unforgiveable!


Emotionally involved? lol

The greedy punks tee me off as well.
the musicians arent whining near as bad as the executives?

they dont care if they 10 million last year and could have made 10.2 million.
Its the whining executives..greedy slimeballs ....in most countries..they have no say.why should they here...if you arent selling it then actually it isnt illegal
so much for the constitution..


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## lighthouse

I'm quite proud of the fact that my associates in Popular Culture and the Industry are some of the most honest. If Ronan O'Rahilly had carried on like certain Band Managers, Record Companies, Tour Promoters, Venue Proprietors; and definately some of the Groups, Radio Caroline would have been taken off air within Mintes by one of the Myriad of Opponents he had - ranging from the DTI to the Postmaster General. He didn't, and despite popular Myth believed by many he ran the Organisation professionally and ensured his Crew and Presenters maintained certain standards (no Drugs for example). Ormsby Gore - by definition - had to be honest because of who he was and what that means and wasn't at all like some in the TV Industry can be while translating hs skills as Diplomat into the runnng of a Television Network.

Also, niether had the adverse effects on a Town or Area they were involved in either - which can't be said for what has happened here since the early-mid 90s, and the same enthusiam to undo the Damage doesn't exist as much as it did to do it! I feel irked by it because it's like they took advantage of what we were trying to do rather like some apparently did at HTV. There were things that were supposed to happen that didn't - and quite a few that weren't - but did!


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## aka Brett

i seen a video the other day where a girl got sued for a few shared files,,she lost in court and lost 200 thousand some odd bucks.
so its real,,its here...46000 plus suits have been files have been filed to date...thats almost a thousand per state...and with the girl losing..there is no way you can win now...as that case can be used as referance case to the industry............so do be concerned..the judge wasnt nice...it will ruin your life


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## RootbeaR

brett888 said:


> i seen a video the other day where a girl got sued for a few shared files,,she lost in court and lost 200 thousand some odd bucks.
> so its real,,its here...46000 plus suits have been files have been filed to date...thats almost a thousand per state...and with the girl losing..there is no way you can win now...as that case can be used as referance case to the industry............so do be concerned..the judge wasnt nice...it will ruin your life


Got a link?

I just read again very recently in an article stating how the RIAA has yet to win a single case in court.

Lots of settlements out of court. That the artists still haven't seen a dime of.

Nothing will be added to public domain. Ever.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sonny_Bono_Copyright_Term_Extension_Act


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## aka Brett

I will see if i can find it again


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## aka Brett

http://video.google.com/videosearch?q=sued+file+sharing&hl=en&emb=0&aq=f#

first video
its not the same one i seen but its about the same thing


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## aka Brett




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## RootbeaR

That was a year or so ago and the decision was reversed.

Jammie Thomas or Jamie.

RIAA is appealing the case. It is still to go to court.


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## RootbeaR

As far as tracking.

I guess that explains the dead people, printers and what not getting threats.

I never watched the movie 3:10 to Yuma because my friend got it via Bell express Vu.
He told me it sucked and not to waste my time or money on it.

Less than a week, if I remember correctly, after watching it on satellite, he received a letter from his ISP, they had forwarded it from MPAA, that he had illegally downloaded 3:10 to Yuma.

I told him to ignore the threat and keep his receipt from Bell.

He never got a follow up letter.

Just another random threat.

Why would he download a movie he had already watched and hated?



Edit: Thanks for digging up the links though.


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## aka Brett

RootbeaR said:


> That was a year or so ago and the decision was reversed.
> 
> Jammie Thomas or Jamie.
> 
> RIAA is appealing the case. It is still to go to court.


I hope she wins.
besides the punishment is unfit
the actual damages should be a dollar a song and punitive damages 2 to 3 times the damages...if we were going by the guidelines set for civil cases.

the american rights are just gone


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## RootbeaR

brett888 said:


> the american rights are just gone


More so than you think.

Even this site is denying services strictly because of the **AAs' threats.

"The ruling should put to rest the argument that transcoding and other activities necessary for making content accessible on the web are not covered by the DMCA's Section 512(c) safe harbor for storing material on behalf of users (i.e., hosting user-generated content). This is good news not just for Veoh, but also for YouTube and every other site that hosts material uploaded by users."
http://www.p2pnet.net/story/18084

I should be able to show people how to connect and get Knoppix at max download rates via torrents. As I did earlier @ 1MB/s average. Instead of through a slow server.
This discourages people from trying Linux when it takes days to download the file.

I don't blame Mike for not wanting the battle on his hands though. Who wants to spend the time and money in court for nothing.


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## RootbeaR

RootbeaR said:


> That was a year or so ago and the decision was reversed.
> 
> Jammie Thomas or Jamie.
> 
> RIAA is appealing the case. It is still to go to court.


Her case comes up again June 15th.


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## RootbeaR

"'Watchmen' conquers box office with $55.7 million

"Watchmen" clocked in with $55.7 million in ticket sales to claim the top spot at the box office, making director Zack Snyder's comic book adaptation about a team of twisted superheros the biggest opening of 2009 so far.

Still, it was not quite as big as the $70 million take of Snyder's "300" in 2007."
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090308/ap_en_ce/box_office

Everyone quit pirating the last few years?


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## lighthouse

But then to see what the Industry has become look who German Neo-Nazi Rock Band - Rammstein - are signed to.......................and it it isn't some obscure Independent either.

From Psychedelia - to this in 40 Years. From Folk to Das Volk!

It really did all turn to crap in the 90s didn't it.


DON'T FEED THE NAZIS!!!!!


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## lighthouse

Why am I starting to feel a bit like Jan Masaryk must have in 1938 - or Molotov in 1941? It's a long and convoluted story but the Czechoslovak Foriegn Minister and Staliins Envoy seem somehow appropriate! For a Decade that was supposed to be so brilliant at the start - some of the Groups that ascended towards the end of it are anything but! Almost makes you nostalgic for the 80s doesn't it................almost! 

Sorry Mr Ashcroft - but THIS stopped being Music a long time ago!

I'm not sure what's worse - the dubious attitudinal Stance of a bunch of Teutonic Rockers or the Control Freakery and Manipulations of People thoroughly screwed up about Prestige!


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## lighthouse

What's bad about these Companies is their almost erroneous Ridiculousness. You still get the Corporate Attitude crap - even when they are imploding..................which is probably why they are imploding..............so Masaryk and Molotov were right - annexe the Sudeten and invade the Soviet Union and your Reich will implode!


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## RootbeaR

"Every new entertainment innovation has resulted in hand-wringing by the existing industry about how it's going to kill the business. Player pianos? Evil. Would destroy the sheet music industry. Recorded music? Would send musicians to the poorhouse and end live music. Radio? Would destroy the recorded music business. Home taping? Killing music. The VCR? The "Boston Strangler" to the movie industry. Notice a pattern? Every single one of them, in actuality, helped grow a market much bigger than that which preceded it. Yet, for some reason, no one in the industry (or, all too often, among the press who repeat their complaints) seems to notice this."
http://www.techdirt.com/articles/20090309/0425194040.shtml


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## lighthouse

Because the Discussion needs clarification.........................it's not the Innovations that harm Music at all - and if anything it's the Biz that does more Damage to the creative Process than anything else. Look what the Studios were doing in the pre U.A Era as they control freaked the Ideas process and kept many 100s of Talented People 'unemployed' on Contracts that meant they couldn't work. Music was around before, during, and will be long after the Biz has imploded on its own Sclerosis, Corruption and Excess. The Media regurgtate their Pseudo-arguements because they're all part of the same Process...........and an agenda driven Production. What I find repulsive about this is how - in the 90s - a huge Music equivalent of the Studio System (Universal) gives big Money to a neo-Nazi Rock Band lke Rammstein at the expense of non-Aggressive Talent. This was when the Industry becomes indefensible because the 'right on' Propaganda has turned into - or been usurped by - very Right Wing Ideology set to Music. I'd like to see their PR Department squirm out of this one - although remembering the 90s and how some I met were just Nazi Skinheads disguised as yer average NME Reader I wasn't hugely surprised. When a Band joins a Record Company they can get millions of Pounds. Dollars, Yen or Euros Advance - and it's those same Executives who made/make claims to being all sorts of stuff their Proteges aren't. The very Fact that Mega Music Biz Companies did this with a Band like Rammstein (and these aren't even one of those early 80s NF Bands like Skrewdriver either - they are mainstream Rock) says you can't believe a word they - or their Media Lackeys - tell us anymore!

No Cher - it's not the Music that isn't any good anymore - it's the Industry getting worse that's no good.................and the Precedent was set during what I call the Decade of Bullcrap! I don't remember any of this being in the Script in 1990/3 - or the BBC Training Manual - that's for sure!

So - erm - now it's 2009 when exactly does the 'be sensitive or else 90s' actually start?


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## lighthouse

What makes this Stuff even less defensible is how it was Bands like Rammstein the Beslan Hostage Takers listened to before and during the Crisis. As someone who was involved in a Music Based campaign to do exactly the Opposite this Pees me off immensely..............what's worse is realising that perhaps some of what was appropriated - and it must be said completely misused - later in the 90s was something of a pre-amble to the mutating and deformation of Rock and Pop Music generally. Also, there weren't mainstream Bands like this in 1991 - during the first Gulf War - or the Falklands Conflict of 9 Years earlier - from what I can remember, and what this must do to the Morale of those engaged in the current Conflict is a question for them and their Musical Preferences. It must be awful to be sent to War knowing that the Industry is quite openly funding Groups that represent something that we thought we saw an end to over 60 Years ago..................and it must be added that this isn't a bunch of slightly misguided, very bored and rather disaffected young people from Bromley in the mid 1970s either. It's a deliberately cultivated, pre-meditated Phenomenon that - rather worryingly - the Protagonists probably won't grow out of, because they *are* grown ups invoking something quite terrible and making a Career (and lots of Money) out of.

Meanwhile of course Creative Economics politics being what they are keeps others from being able to do anything - which is why I feel a bit like Masaryk and Molotov must have felt in 1938/41. I spent the Years after 1993 struggling, having my Friends 'arranged' for me, not allowed (or discouraged) from having any association with professional Peers, Colleagues or Contemporaries - and while all this is going on we get the emergence of Nazi Rock Bands - which makes all it look rather more than just Creative Industry Politics! How many others have they done this to during all this? Universal Records are the Parent Company of some who are locally involved!

This is why I welcome the appearance of Sites that mean Music doesn't have to prostrate itself to this Process or do business with the sort of Companies who have become completely devoid of any conscience at all...........but when I say this I refer to those Sites that do have something vaguely resembling Integrity.....................It helps ensure that the Peoples Music doesn't make the unfortunate and horrible Transition from Folk to Volk! What astonishes me is how no-one in Music Medialand of the last 12 Years or so has questioned any of it when surely to their various Omnipotences or Atheist Ethicisms there must be People in it who see it for what it is and don't just see the Money!

Here's a question...............................'Inbetweener' - 'Stuck in the Middle with...............' - Law and Order (SLF) - what have they all got in common......but then is this a distraction from what Music was becoming Ms W and Ms R?


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## DaBeers

I have just a couple thoughts to add to this article.

As the father of 2 sons, one of which is at the age I was when I began to build my cassette library back in the late 70's into the 80's, I have noticed different trends then were present in my day. Games are a part of their life and I'm sure some music time is lost because of it. However, I believe other issues may also be contributing to the record company's decline in sales.

As a music lovers, I find it interesting to observe my children go through the process of self discovery required to define ones taste in music. My sons both favor Indy bands. It seems this movement has made it easy for unsigned bands get national notice. They commonly get together with their friends on MySpace where they discuss what they have heard recently and where to find it. Many times, they are able to obtain tracks or albums directly from the artist cheap or free, and see no need to hassle me into the next trip to Best Buy. Many of these bands are also road weary, as my son has been averaging 5 shows a month this winter, usually $10 or less per show. This tends to take up the majority of his pocket money.

With these bands, and the left overs of my old collection comprising the bulk of our digital music dump, I have days, if not weeks of continuous play. Best of all, I have probably only spent $60-$100 on it in the last 10 years. In my prime purchasing phase I could spend that in one trip to the record store, and would do it every few weeks.

Another point, touched on briefly before, it seems I'm spending less money, should be expanded by noting that it's not just cheaper to add to the collection, but to maintain it. In my life, I've had to move my vinyls to 8-track, so I could play them in the car. Then I had to move my 8-tracks to cassette, because they retired the 8-track format. During the cassette era, I found myself frequently replacing them as they were easy to ruin in a closed car on a hot day, and could be worn out simply by playing them. Finally, and quite willingly, I then had to move my collection to CD. 

This move solved many of my maintenance problems. Yes, they scratch, but if you like your music, and respect your own property, it is fairly easy to stretch their life out. I still have an original copy of New Edition Greatest Hits Volume One(MCA) now 19 years old. The key is to use good practice while handling them, and not to use them at all. That's where the real issue comes in. The ability to store this music on my computer, and render it out when needed, is the real culprit since I no longer have to repurchase content.

The record companies are probably correct in blaming the PC for the decline in sales, but conquering file sharing alone will not solve their problems. They need to consider the possibility that they are so big that it's become hard to change, and failure to adapt to changes in the market are what is really hurting. If my son likes Indy music, start signing the bands. If he likes to talk on MySpace, target MySpace. If you don't like people being able to use the content you sell on a PC, look to the market to change it, X-BOX Live has done wonders to curb copyright violation on a very similar medium. Bear in mind that the market will also respond to your changes and the consumer will not face restriction, without further benefit, well.


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## lighthouse

I hope the former Russian President is reading this.............................as he had to sort out the Beslan Crisis.

It's a cruel Irony Mr Putin that our creative Economy had become that erroneous or just that awful in the 1990s that by the 21st century a Band signed to the Record Company that ultimately runs this Town provided the Soundtrack to the worst Terrorist Attrocity of recent Years. I was involved with a Project that used the Artform to free People from such situations - not induce the Kidnappers with the necessary attitude to commit such an act. Our Album was even considered for release in Gorbachevs Soviet Union - not in spite - but support of his reforms. Since that time our Entertainment Industry has indulged in some of the worst Duplicity imaginable to the point where what we were doing has been deliberately obscured in a - and your word for it is 'Maskrovka' - Deception so sublime that I have had to fight to ensure that something vaguely resembling the Truth prevails. This - I'm afraid - is what has happened to our part of the World since it became the dominant force in World Influence after 1989/91. This depresses me because the Pro-Democracy Movement of that time had so much potential - and by definition - what our Project represented was very conducive to that. The Fact that we even included Iranian Hostages in Lebanon at the time when Tehran selected a moderate Leader (Rafsanjani) very much illustrates this, and what irks me is the emerging Duplicitousness afterwards.............culminating in the Events in North Ossetia a few Years ago. There are many things that need clarification at any Talks held between the West and your Government and some of those include the erroneousness of the Creative Economy. Until that Policy in the Industry ends - and the distorting effects of semantics on Context - I have consciencously objected to it, and considering the awfulness of the Beslan Tragedy - how it was an attack on the Peaceful lives of Russian People (and would be on any People - anywhere) - I used Jan Masaryck at Munich in 1938 or Vyacheslav Molotov in 1941 as a Metaphor to express my disdain. It is like some of our Music Industry has assumed similar Traits as the Fascists of the 1930s and 40s. There are many Paradoxes about all of this - and many other things.

It is because of this that I welcome the proliferation of Internet Music distribution as a sort of Partisan Resistance against what has become the awful excesses of some Areas of our Entertainment Industry, what it sanctions, and how they not only control the Creative Process but also Lives, distort Truths in the interests of Corporate Expediency, and indulge in Censorship. I would rather listen to some of the brilliant Russian Music I found on the Internet (Abviotura, Kak Rodnaya, Tarakany etc) which you can't buy in our Record Shops or hear on the Radio then some of the horrible stuff you can.................and here is another Paradox in that the Beslan Hostage Takers could readilly get Rammstein Records - which induce violence and hate - via the Groups Companies huge distribution system while we can't some of your Countries Music which doesn't.

But then you see Mr Putin - our Industry would rather isolate and murder one of its own than just be honest about it all - that's the level of Erroneousness it has stooped to and what some of it has become.................and if this is supposed to be a representation of whatever our Society has become in the last 10-15 Years that is what you would be negotiating with. Rammstein are the Culmination of all of this - the Soundtrack to hate and corruption. Look at what the greedy Music Biz did to this Town. They make a huge amount of Money out of it but as yet haven't provided anything resembling an Arts Facilty or something conducive to the amount of Activty they get from it. We have less in this Town than others of similar size in the County - and they don't have a Charting Group named after them............and all that that has associated with it. We've had others with Major Record Company Publishing Deals - but the same situation prevails. There is a huge bunch of other things to - Poetry, Media Activity, even the Film Industry - you name it, but so far the only Commitment is what you might hear on a Radio or see on the TV - broadcast 100s of miles away. It has been like this since 1994, and hasn't improved since then. At least the Groups and Musicians who use the Internet aren't involved in that Process and can't be accused of Hypocrisy either!


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## RootbeaR

"He's the Israeli musician who's Thru You video mix is taking the Net buy storm."
http://www.p2pnet.net/story/18765

Excellent mix work!

Take a "look-n-listen."


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## lighthouse

Considering the amount of Creative Economics activity associated with this Town we ought to have the most awesome Creative Arts based Infrastructure in the Country - but we don't. Yeah, there's plenty of Money here - but there's a hell of a lot more being made elsewhere from it. All we have at the moment is a very big housing Estate and a bunch of Shops - even less than other Towns in the Area...................so where is the Infrastructure to justify the amount of Money made, and the activity happening 100s - sometimes 1000s - of miles away associated with it all? A question for all those Yuppie Hippies in the industry isn't it!

I ask this because I remember the beginning of the 90s - I also remember being told how brilliant it was all going to be - so where is the proof of all this Yuppie Hippie Blarney? The Publishing Industry, Music, TV, Film, and Record Industries have all minted it, so when you've all finished shoving it up your Nose perhaps you'd like to put something back into the Community you've systematically plundered for at least the last 18 Years!

Maybe a Russian Accountant would like to calculate just how much they have made! Meanwhile I'll compare what I got paid for making Radio Programmes to whatever Advance Polygram International gave Rammstein!


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## lighthouse

For anyone who doesn't understand the Masaryck/Molotov analogy I'll explain..................

Jan Masaryck was the Czechoslovak Foreign Minister (probably one of the most intelligent Politicals in Europe of the Time) who had to see the British Prime Minister (Chamberlain) and his French Equivalent (Daladier) negotiate away a strip of Land in Western Czechoslovakia called the Sudetenland. Although many in the Sudeten were German it was also where most of Pragues Fortifications and Armies were against any Attack from Germany or Austria. Once Chamberlain and Daladier had effectively given away this Land to Hitler and Mussolini at Munich Czechoslovakia (and thus much of eastern Europe) was defenceless against what happened the Year after. Strategists believe that the Czech Army - with its Fortified Defence System - would present the Nazis with an Opponent to be reckoned with - but were rendered prostrate by the Political and Military Annexation of that infamous Conference in Bavaria.

When I saw what was happening in Britain in the 90s - and then began reading stuff about some of the Rock Bands of the last 12 Years - I begin to see that the late 80s/Early 90s were a sort of elongated Munich - although who the metaphorical Chamberlain and Daladier were needs further investigation - which culminates in the analogous Masaryck being forced out (he walked out of the Conference in protest at the Fait Accompli he was being given) and the dubious Decisions being made in his Absence (after 1938 - or 1993). It's like they took from us and gave it to something rather more aggressive and infinately more hostile. My response to this was to move further East and become the metaphorical Molotov...................................while there might be a time when I become an analogous Chuikov in 1945! (if there's any justice).

This is why I support the Internet Music Movement because it means that Musicians don't have to attend any metaphorical Munichs. Although You Tube is probably not much better than a corporate Record Company in that I remember another Tube - a Singer called Fee Waybill - being Johnny B*****r and the Dirt Boxes in the Bands 'What do you want from' (Live) show and doing a song called "White Punks on Dope". I prefer the rather more ingenuous stuff! If this was another of those 'negotiated in absentia' things as happened in 1938 (and after 1993) then I probably made a very apt and poignant Decision a few days ago!


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## lighthouse

What you have to remember is that this corporatised stuff is what they went to War for. It's one thing to have the 'Cor blimey, - Red Right and Blue, 90s, becoming the big business flirtation with 21st Century Neo-Nazism - another entirely when this is a lifestyle the West sends Troops to fight for. It's the difference between the Bauhaus and Riefenstahl - while the former was completely justifiable the latter certainly wasn't. Many wouldn't remember the Gulf War of 91 (or the Culture during it). I do - and I can tell you that it was very different to what we have now, and probably more conducive to what Neil Young once called 'Rocking in the free World' than much of what has happened in the last 15 Years. Even the 'Madchester' stuff was comparatively innocuous - although what even that might have been used as since is a question for some of them these days. 

Many of the Musicians subscribing to Internet Distribution rather than Corporate Collaboration are probably the proverbial Green Shoots showing through the Rubble left after the Monolith collapses. When a Record Company starts giving Career development to very dubious Bands the Moral Bankruptcy of the Industry becomes very apparent. (Money uber alles - and to hell with the Precedent). At the moment they give People more reasons to dislke it than like it, and they seem incapable of adapting from that - and operate a Policy of Repression instead. When they have made more Enemies than Friends and implode it'll be a bit like Europe after 1945, and it'll be the Internet Musicians that rehabilitate the Artform from the Ruins.


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## Rivera42

I think IMiteBAble2Help said pretty much what I was going to point out. For 30 years the greedy music "industry" stood quietly by and said nothing about the propagation of dual-cassette and cd-to-tape dubbing equipment became standard in every household. For them to suddenly decide to whine about "lost profits" just because the Internet allows exactly the same thing but on a slightly larger scale is nothing short of blatant, galling hypocrisy.

lighthouse brings up another part of the picture - the music "industry" doesn't actually care about music at all - only money. The reason for making (and promoting) music is for the love of music, not the love of money. They should be grateful anybody's even listening to these bands at all. They lost sight of the larger picture, and they're getting what's coming to them. Or more to the point, they're not. In any case, the idea that so-called piracy hurts their pocketbooks is a myth. They're just looking for a scapegoat.

If illegal filesharing is such a problem for these whiny idiots, maybe instead of trying to put a stop to it, they ought to just change the law so that it's no longer illegal. They could have tried 30 years ago to have tape-to-tape and cd-to-tape recording technology banned, but they didn't. There must be a reason for that. They're nothing but hypocrites. Hypocrites and soul-sucking vultures.

On the flip side, just off the top of my head I can think of 5 bands whose music is available LEGALLY for free download, who I wound up going out and PURCHASING their CD's as a DIRECT result of becoming a fan through the acquisition of LEGAL free downloads on sites like CNET.

And finally, two words. Internet Radio.

Sorry for the long-winded vitriol, but I'm still having my morning coffee.


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## Rivera42

Now I'm out in the car, but I have to add this before I head to work.

While it certainly sounds like I support the sharing of music, I wanted to clarify that I don't bother with what's being referred to as the "illegal" methods.
For one thing I've heard more than I need to about the dangers of p2p, and I choose not to shoulder those risks. Moreover, I belong to several sites, clubs and online services that provide legal, artist-submitted content, and I am quite satisfied with what's available therefrom. The wealth of content plus the option of the aforementioned online radio stations precludes any real or imagined need to go the extra step of breaking the law just to get some entertainment. I may not agree with the so-called anti-piracy laws, but that doesn't necessarily mean I can be bothered to go breaking them.
And finally, I'm one of those idiots who still goes out and pays $20 for a CD if I really want it. I'd be more than happy to post pictures of the 500-plus CD's I own and have paid for.

Personally, I am quite satisfied with my existing record collection, and with what's available legally online. I just wanted to mention this for those who may be raising their eyebrows at the preceding post.

If sales are falling off, it's not because of so-called piracy, it's because what the major labels are releasing nowadays is unlistenable garbage.


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## RootbeaR

Rivera42 said:


> I just wanted to mention this for those who may be raising their eyebrows at the preceding post.
> 
> If sales are falling off, it's not because of so-called piracy, it's because what the major labels are releasing nowadays is unlistenable garbage.


Some of us have bought and paid for our collections multiple times. Different physical medium.

People assume others are like themselves. Only a thief will accuse you of stealing your collection.

"All this digital stuff, now, it's actually really helped my audience, you know. We were playing little blues bars, and with the advent of YouTube all these college kids started coming out, because they'd check you out online, and instead of a hundred fans, there'd be thousands, and it's great! How can you complain about YouTube? It's a really good thing.

So, for all those musicians complaining that YouTube doesn't "pay enough," I would imagine that the increased revenue Bonamassa gets from increasing his audience by an order of magnitude seems like a pretty decent "payment." And, to think, YouTube provided this promotional platform to him for free!"
http://www.techdirt.com/articles/20090311/1826194078.shtml

Used to be exposure was good. So good the RIAA used to pay for it. Now they sue you for giving them the exposure.

If I record an album, and can live off of the royalties for the rest of my life, what incentive do I have to make another?


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## lighthouse

All of this is why the Industry is floundering. Have they reduced the cost of CDs as an incentive? No they haven't (and a Musician gets a very small fraction of the Retail), They continue their Monopoly on the Music Broadcast Scene so you only hear what they want you to hear.........which is self-effacing because in many instances Album Tracks are better than the Singles played on the Radio. It's also completely unrepresentative (ask a Russian what they thought of TATu - who we were 'allowed' to hear - and what they say about all their other Music - which we weren't).

I don't like the Record Industry because of what they were up to in the last 18 Years. Rather like Masaryck I had something I would later need given away to those who would launch an Assault on me - as they did.....................and I wouldn't mind talkng to some of the - erm - Chamberlains and Daladiers responsible. Don't underestimate what that Industry is capable of - and just how much they will distort and corrupt everything afterwards. It's like the Person who steals my Records and is caught selling them in a Pub aggressively denying it - but on a grand scale. This probably explains the aggressiveness of our Culture - and Society with its subsequent Commerce - in the Years since. Because those Daladiers and Chamberlains gave away stuff that wasn't theirs to what can only be described as aggressive Corporate Fascists - Molotov has his non-aggression Treaty reneged on and has had to fight back ever since. Look at what I've had to contend with after 1993, while also having to do so with the Defence against the Attack completely diminished. The omnipresence of this Process makes it very difficult indeed to know who to trust or believe and there was very scant Morale derived from it. The Internet Musicians aren't complicit in this - or any of the subsequent corporate Attitude or jiggery pokery with almost everything else - including social Infrastructure, thus they are now more conducive to what Music is supposed to be than what the Industry does, while the Web Based distribution and even File Sharers probably appreciate Music for what it is rather than those who just see it as a Business.


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## Rivera42

I couldn't agree more.

I, too, have made multiple purchases of the same album on multiple media, and let me hasten to add that I didn't "upgrade" or "replace" my cassettes with CD's, because I still listen to cassettes - mostly in the car, but does that really matter? In fact, I have some albums I owned on CD BEFORE buying the tape - and it doesn't take a rocket scientist to understand that I could have used my perfectly legal cd-to-tape dubbing device to make my own cassette for use in the car. Let me also mention that according to the finer points of the copyright law, if I have passengers in my car it is against the law for me to play the cd's or tapes because those passengers haven't paid for their "right" to listen to them. I wish I could remember where specifically it says that, but I definitely remember reading something to that effect. If I buy an album, legally I am not allowed to let anybody else listen to my copy of it - even if I am listening to it at the time. According to the same provision, I am not legally permitted to read the newspaper over somebody else's shoulder, because they've paid for it and I haven't. They also cannot give it away when they're done with it. I realize that for the most part these are technicalities, but they are indeed codified. Ordinarily I'd be frantically Googling copyright law to find the exact passage I got this from, but by the end of my post you will hopefully understand why I am not.

I just want to make two quick points. First the good. Last night I wound up adding yet another band to the list of artists whose music I discovered on a legal free download site and whose album I subsequently purchased. It just wound up working out this way as I'd gone into the record store looking for something completely different. I'd be more than happy to post a scan image of my timestamped receipt and jpg's of me with the cd, along with a link to the original free mp3. My point here is that free music helps increase record sales.

Now for the other point: last night I was involved in a car accident caused by a driver who, according to the police, was not legally drunk ENOUGH to get arrested. In fact, because the officer's hands were tied, so to speak, they actually had to let this guy DRIVE HIMSELF home. My point? What kind of society is it where we can allow this sort of thing and yet be expected to fall all over ourselves in making sure somebody doesn't wind up with an unpaid-for copy of some lame musician's crappy cd? It does not balance.
Oh yeah, I can upload pictures of the accident, as well. People on the Internet kind of need to "come from Missouri" if you know what I mean.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## lighthouse

Having seen what they did to a lot of Stuff in the Years since the early 1990s (maybe before) I wouldn't buy their crap because I don't know where my Money would be going. If it went to fund another Monstrosity like Rammstein I wouldn't give them a Cent! When you do all you're doing is encouraging them! I've had People try and tell me that it isn't all like that but my response was - 'Yeah, so where's the Evidence that it isn't?' This is one of the many Questions I have for all those Daladiers and Chamberlains I remember from Years ago! The Paradox with this (or maybe not) is how before the Barrow Mafia began having hit Records you could do Music Stuff here - now you can't.....................................This speaks Volumes about what Corporate Entertainment does!

Oh, and you might be relieved to hear that I don't drive - or drink much particularly!


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## Rivera42

Some of the best free-and-legal music I've discovered has been from bands no longer performing or recording. If it weren't for the online content I may never have known they ever existed, let alone have a standard by which to benchmark others of their respective genres.

Is it just me, or is the point of recorded music to generate interest in buying a ticket to a live show? Because I'm pretty sure that's the case, or at least it used to be. Maybe nowadays it's the other way around.

And not to one-up you, but I don't drink at all 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## RootbeaR

Rivera42 said:


> Is it just me, or is the point of recorded music to generate interest in buying a ticket to a live show? Because I'm pretty sure that's the case, or at least it used to be. Maybe nowadays it's the other way around.


Sorry to hear about your accident, sounds like you are ok though?

Post #8, last few lines:
http://forums.techguy.org/random-discussion/804891-cd-dvd-audio-video-discs.html


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## lighthouse

Rather like Masaryck I feel like someone who has had something given away to the sort of People he wouldn't want it given away to. Why? Well, look at the endless succession of disasters since, look at the horrible Culture Agenda, look at the complete lack of Inclusion in anything. Even when I'm in the Venues of Bristol, Bath, Cheltenham and Gloucester from 95 to 97 there's still no real inclusivity. There almost was (another of those things that nearly happens) on my 27th Birthday - but it has diminished ever since. As for the stuff I've met and seen here for the last few Years some of it is contemptible in the extreme. This is what is (not) happening behind all the corporate P.R, and what worries me is the Corruption since. What's going on with this 2 Wheeled Freemasonry for example - and what are their Record Industry Affiliates? Does having a bit of Cloth on your Jacket and an HD somehow guarentee your Future and access to anything? Does all this mean that once it all disappears in there that's it - never to be seen again - and anyone makng a legitamate Protest gets the same crap I do?

This is the reality behind all the Fun, Games and Entertainment.

*DON'T FEED THE NAZIS! *(because that is what I'm starting to think we've been doing)! It's all very well 'making it happen' Mr Gallagher (as we have for more than 40 Years) - but not much good if you can't go to or are kept out of the subsequent Party is it!


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## lighthouse

I was probably about 28 when I was the Masaryck of this Story - kept out of those cozy Hippie Nights out when the others would go somewhere for Beers - while I struggled through making Radio, continued the awareness for their Project, oh - and fought an earlier War against some Bikey Bulcrap.This might have been the time when the Daladiers and Chamberlains began considering the Betrayal -w hich they would exact in Masarycks Absence. The Czech Foreign Minister walked out in Protest at the apparent Fait Accompli in Munich in 1938 - while I felt continually excluded from Stuff I was probably supposed to be involved with and ultimately lost my Job (although by then I was amazed I was making Radio at all considering the Level of Exhaustion I had). From that day to this I've been rather like Molotov - seeing all sorts of stuff that probably wasn't supposed to happen - and then having to fight against the Hostility since. The Metaphor is startling in its poignancy.

I remembered very well the beginning of the Decade when I was unconscious, a huge Gash under my Right Eye, Teeth permanently numb almost ever since, in a Car Park in Trowbridge in 1997 - how it had gone from being at a Human Rights Project Press Conference in London to that in 7 Years...................which somehow reinforces the Metaphor! No nice Production Rooms or Polite Media Chit Chat - 'This Life' Dinner Party that's for sure.No Love amongst the Artists as referred to in the famous Book of the same name. More like a War I don't want - and not very creative either! Hmm - so this was 90s Bristol 'Indie' was it - no thanks - you can keep it! (as I said to the Bands Manager the day after). When I hear People going on about the decline in Musical Fortunes of recent Years I'm not at all surprised if this was all it has to offer those who did 'Make it happen'. I said to someone a few Months ago that I thought this Hippie Rock and Roll, Creative Economy thing was supposed to be fun - but - erm - when does that actually start, like when does the 'be sensitive or else 90s' start now it's 2009? All of this is the Hype, the Propaganda, the empty Rhetoric sold to us by the Industry - but the Reality is that for all its posturings of Warmth it's a very cold Environment indeed - even for those who grew up with it! If it wasn't I'd probably have the most awsome Hippie Lady Wife/Girlfriend - Family - and living the Rural Idyl they subscribe to, with a Production Company making all sorts of interesting Radio or TV Programmes.............or something rather more urbane than this. Instead, because it is such a cold Environment rivven with politics, all sharp Edges and Barbed Wire, Duplicitousness and Dishonesty, I don't - and have to see those now 40 Somethings I have a parallel life to living it instead! But then that's the Industry's control freakery for you - which they even started doing with my Friends Years ago.

Subsequently I have no Sympathy whatsoever for that Industry anymore. Looking at what it has turned into in the Years since the early 90s the sooner those People become unemployed from a Job they probably shouldn't have had anyway the better! Oh, and as far as Universal are concerned it was them who co-ordinate the Brit Awards and thus that horribly choreographed Ceremony in 2000! That was when the Biz had undulged itself into the Monster it had become by then and has been that ever since...........or at least dropped the pretence of any P.R it might have had before!


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## lighthouse

You don't suppose Americas other Record Company are reading this do you? If they are they must be astonished at seeing what their Rivals have been up to and with the creative Process..............particularly their US Rival criticised here. EMI and BMG are guilty of the same Rock and Roll War Crimes of Control Freakery and Manipulation as Universal too..............while some of Sonys aquisitions were in the 90s, but as far as I can remember Time-Warner rather astutely kept out of it. Subsequently - although being as big a Conglomerate they are - have more integrity than any of the others put together. The Merger was the most exciting thing to happen in the Creative Economy of recent Years - and the combination of quality Journalism (Time Magazine), a Company that has made some of the most awesome Films and funnyest Cartoons ever - with a Roster of Bands that include America and *Don McClean *is going to be very influential indeed. If you're looking for a Company that IS the American Record Industry it's T.W, and probably represents everything Rock and Roll is supposed to be, it's going to be them - while the others get up to all sorts of crud and pre-emptive pseudo-culture that is the anathema not only of Rock and Roll - but also the Country it appeared in.

Those Journalists - whose employer has covered everything from the Spanish Civil War to Obamas Election - must be rather disdainly looking at the growing pile of Evidence against the other Companies who don't have any News Gathering Organisations in their Remit - and I wouldn't be surprised if some seriously big Industry Activities happen as a result. *Ooooh - I do hope so!!! *Why shouldn't THE all American, quintessentially Rock and Roll Record Company take over some of the others after their Malarkeys of recent Years and rehabilitate the Artform? I'm a Musician and a Journalist and subsequently reckon that the Combination of respected Reportage and genuine Popular Culture Ethos should re-assert itself against the excesses of the other Companies and probably do something towards rehabilitating the US at the same time!

What the others have done is diabolical - and what some in this Area - including Hippies - did to comply with their Regime is worse!

"Look Vyachaslav - it's the Elbe!!!!"


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## lighthouse

"Many years ago Vyachaslav - when we had to fight another Battle - against 'Operation Blau' - huh - remember? When all we wanted to do was live our peaceful Lives making Radio Programmes and playing Music. We were the Don Front then and on the other side of that River is AoL and Don McClean. Now, finally we can begin establishing the Pravda - da...................after more than 20 Years of completely unwanted and probably pre-empted Conflict! I realised why nothing worked here - they all have someones hand manipulating them by one of those other Companies, it's dismal and they are false, but AoL are a good Company, good Americans, a genuine Rock and Roll Company, who don't do this - and they have this very big Computer Company - this will prove to be very useful! They also have many good Journalists too!"


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## lighthouse

If I remember correctly which Company made a certain NYC based TV Programme in the 90s? The same one that Don McClean - who recorded their most famous song was signed to - Warner Reprise. Is this a Coincidence or another of those Doors we opened for People? One day someone is going to stop bulcrapping me - oh, and Aol probably - in a Regime that is so corrupt that even this doesn't seem to make very much difference. Not here - but then with all these other Companies fiddling and contriving it isn't surprising really!

Too many negative networkers here - far too many - and too much Social Engineering................ and this lousy Bench in this dismal High Street!

Tell the World what's going on here Aol - those other Companies have done so much damage to some of our lives - and mine particularly!

Why should we subsidise their Lives anymore - they're not Hippies or even Creatives, they're Nazis - lousy cliquist Nazis!!!!!

Aol ought to whomp them severely for this!


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## Mumbodog

A bit late on the subject but here goes...

The Music industry is more of a Cartel, it has been for a long time., and like other cartel they are not only in the business of selling a product but also maintain total control over the entire market, bar none. Similar to the diamond market they can crush any competitior that does not play by their rules or threatens their cartel. Unlike the diamond market the Music industry chooses to restrict product to meet their goals.

DeBeers is famous for crushing rivals, If an upstart investment group opens a new diamond mine and tries to bring product to the retail market directly, DeBeers simply lowers the price of their diamonds to a level that crushes the new guys, they have done this for a long time and it works well, it also benefits the customer with occasional bargain prices on diamonds. Don't get me wrong, I don't like any Cartel, but at least these guys know how to keep customers in the long run.

The Music industry on the other hand, insists on keeping a strangle hold on the flow and price of music no matter what (greed), a really bad move that is becoming self evident as artists are leaving the music cartel and customers resort to bittorrent to find out of print and hard to find music.

Last but not least the copyright law is like no other, it protects the "inventor/ owner" of its product for 50 years after they are dead, heck I bet patent holders wish they could get that deal.

I don't think we will change copyright or the music cartel, but the artists will, by going open source with their product.

my 2 cents


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## lighthouse

Vyachaslav says to Vladimir..................

"Do you remember Vladimir - how many times we opened the Door for those People? They would give us some Guff about how they were cool, - I don't know - some Pseudo-Idealism stuff - whatever - make some Ribbentropish Agreement - acquire our Trust and all that Jazz......huh!? They would all charge through that Door, disappear over the Horizon (leaving us holding that wretched Entrance) without a word of Thanks - and then it got worse. The Aggression would start - the slanderous almost murderous Lies, the deliberate Coercion even socially - for Decades. You would see everything being exploited and they would live their comfortable lives in our Villages and Towns - while we are left outside not able to do anything. They devoured Mother Russias resources - leaving nothing, or developing anything for the future - or at least some Peoples futures. What they did establish was a Structure no decent Man or Woman could or would want to work with...........like those Invaders did in 1941. I have heard the Songs of a young American singing about a similar thing that happened in Kansas and Oklahoma. (laughs) He is a good man Vladimir - you know what he has written on his Guitar............huh? It seems he fights a similar Enemy to us. You know, those People he sings about did something similar to what these People we fight are doing. Although those in his Songs have an Excuse because they are uninformed about how their Earth Mother turned to Dust and blew away in the Storm, so their Exploitation of the Land - its pitiless Enslavement - and of themselves can be explained by Ignorance, a lack of Knowledge, and the Fascism he fights are the Circumstances that lead to it - like those that afflicted the Peasants and Workers in the Romanov Era. Those we contend with aren't even from those Circumstances - and do what they do through Corruption, Cynicism and Manipulation.

The Irony in this is how those People did what these we fight are doing - gradually - went to California - and in California is something we are connected to. So they charge through our Door - begin the Regime that we have grown to know all too well in all its awfulness, the Decades of concurrent Occupation and Exclusion, the Excesses and Brutality, the Aggression and Contempt that led to the Destruction of their own Armies at Stalingrad - or their attempted Isolation of ours at Kursk. (sigh) But what can we do Vladimir? They are full of Greed and Hate, the Years of sclerosis set in Concrete, the proverbial Die is cast. They didn't learn from what happened after Kalach - when Comrade Rokossovski forced Von Paulus's Ocean of Tanks and Men onto the Breakwaters of Stalingrad. On the other side of that River (the Elbe) is a similar Breakwater Vladimir - which will do the same thing - metaphorically and ultimately! So if anyone ever opens a Door for you Comrade - always remember it - and don't do what those we did it for did to us. You never know, but you might be running towards something they have been associated with for a very long time indeed!"

I hope the good People at Aol - T.W are reading this and what their Rivals had been up to for Years to sell their shoddy Products!


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## lighthouse

And as the Don Front meets up with Don McClean on the Elbe after a Decades long War they didn't want there's info they exchange.........................

The UK Radio Industry Licences are being sold to Telecoms Businesses in the next 2 Years - so regardless of whether you Broadcast on FM, AM, SW, LW, FM Stereo - or even DAB or the Internet - that Document saying you can will be applied to via the Plethora of Telecomunications Companies. What this means for Music I don't really know - but the Music Policy of a station will be governed by this as they set the Parameters for the Licence. Apparently so are some of Londons most famous Theaters - intriguingly.

Media Unions reckon that ITV has only a limted Time left before it becomes a - shall we say - less than regional Service. This could have an effect on Music because it means no interaction with the Communities they Broadcast to - thus any new Bands.........while it is believed that Channel 5 could merge with Channel 4 because the former is struggling for revenue while the latter is propped up with a Government Subsidy.

As for the other Major Record Companies - well, they became the Victims of their own Control Freakery and Excess. I could write a very detailed account of what they were up to here for Years - and it isn't very entertaining - or even particularly creative. If anything it was vey corrupt and there aren't really many aspects of anything here they didn't tweak in one form or another. Warner didn't - and it's just as well - and quite appropriate they didn't either as someone has to be left to rehabilitate the Artform from the Monstrosity the others turned it into. Maybe they should have a Rock and Roll Nuremberg - bringing those other Record Bosses and their various Lackeys to justice. 

WEA also have their ISP and so provide the Infrastructure for Musics continued development. This is actually eveything that is good about America - and the Idea of America Online has a Vitality about it - while it facilitates Creativity to People. The others are far too anal to see that their Business Practices and Manipulations do more harm to Music than anything a bunch of File Sharers might do. What those Companies do - and certainly what they did here - stifles any Creativity and the Incentive to want to do anything. Their control of everything - and even things like Friends and Relationships - is completely anathema to anything vaguely organic and I hope they choke on their own Obsession with Prestige. They're horrible - and perhaps some of the A and R Decisions they've made since the early 90s shows just how horrible they are. To call them slimy is an understatement!

Aol have outmanouvred all of them - enacted their Koltso - and now those who have committed so many Crimes against Rock and Roll, Creativity - and Creative People -will be brought to justice.


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## lighthouse

To show just how crap the Industry is behind all the Hype is how I send an Email to someone associated with all this and don't even get a Reply! It might not be their fault - but that of the Regime - and what has happened here as far back as I can remember - and certainly from the beginning of the 90s - is a similar thing that happened in Czechoslovakia after the crushing of the Prague Spring. They imposed the most stultifyingly tedious, patronage rivven and spiteful 'Admnistration' imaginable.............has been for Years - and worse in recent ones! Whatever is going on here seems more obsessed with Chip Shops and THAT Record by someone who was in a crappy - grown in a Petri-dish - mid 90s Girl Group (a Virgin/ EMI signing) than what is supposed to be 'the most exciting Art-Form in the World ever!' What is strange - although perhaps a Lesson to the Control Freak Agents of Ultra-Tedium - is how when these People met in 2007 a Renascence of Positivity happened right through the Broadcast Industry for about a Month, then I s'pose the Culture Stasi or Industry Schutz Staffel found out and crushed that too!

And if this shoddy Concept Town is the Culmination of all the other Record Company Shenanigans of the last 12-15 Years (maybe more) it doesn't bode too well for the Industry at all. If a Record Company acts like a Regime then People will naturally respond against it. Universal/Polygram have realised that the game is up - they've commited all sorts of War Crimes against Creativity and the People involved - they've gerimandered a Community and our Lives to their own dubious ends (Ditto for Virgin/EMI, and BMG) - and now are carrying on like any Dictatorship. Kennedy once said that the most effective form of Government is less Government - the same Rules apply to the Music Industry! They are exactly like everything that was wrong with the old Studio System of the earlier years of the Film Industry - whereas WEA aren't - although T.W-Aol are one of the Companies who made Films in those Days, but maybe they realised the Falaciousness of it Years ago and dissisted from it! I hope the Journalists of the only genuine Rock and Roll Multi-Media, non-Control Freak Company are gleefully reading the Evidence piling up against their Rivals!


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## lighthouse

Originally posted by Rivera42.........................

"Some of the best free-and-legal music I've discovered has been from bands no longer performing or recording. If it weren't for the online content I may never have known they ever existed,"

And this is another good point in that many Songs get deleted and unless you know a decent 2nd Hand Record Shop that might have a copy the Internet is the only option. If a Company has that much disregard for a Song that they delete it and don't even keep a few Copies of it should R42 want one at any time - it's a bit much of them to suddenly get all flustered when he gets on the Internet and finds a Download of it. What is very very stupid about all this Universal Palava is how the legal Fees for their dictatorial Policy would probably cost more than anything they might lose from People File sharing!


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## lighthouse

As a Journalist (albeit an unpaid one) I consider it my Duty to let fellow Journalists in the US know what is (not)happening here. This is another aspect of WEA that I find favourable and that is how they aren't just another Company existing purely for Profit. Time has been one of the most venerated Publications for Decades and is almost as much a Journalists read as the NY Times and Washington Post.....and thus an integral part of the 'Info' element of Infotainment. If any of those Folks are reading this could someone arrange a moral Shower - as the Subjectivity flies thick and fast here (geo not cyber)!


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## lighthouse

................................And considering what happened on September 11th 2001 - and the 'coincidence' on that day - perhaps those NYC based Journalists at T.W would like to do a Profile on me - and begin reading this stuff very very closely! Suffice to say I'd be reluctant to give some People here anything in such Circumstances. Too many things disappear here - far too many!

"The day the Music died"!

It's true y'know, - that the Companies Reps might have been saying one thing to the outside World - but the Reality here is very different. I've spent so many Years on this Street - not homeless, (but what else are you supposed to do in such a Regime?) - I'm beginning to forget what it's like not to be.................and that can't be right, and certainly doesn't tally with the Propaganda of 1990! But then, this is symptomatic of a situation that has suffered from a chronic lack of vitalty, (too many things that almost happen - none of the things that do) so whether it's the disasterous 'coincidence' of 9/11 or the Contributor spending Years in a dismal High Street - the Cause is the same in both Instances - and those Companies are implicated somewhere in all of this - they must be!


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## lighthouse

I have no problem at all about Don McCleans Record Company profilng me - they would then not only have a Record telling the World about 'the Day the Music died' - but would also begin to find out why! This Hippie who has always told the Truth - but got nowhere - and a bunch of 'em in Bristol who didn't - but have says much about this! As Time Warner are based in New York - which was attacked on September 11th 2001 - maybe they might not be too pleased with the erroneous bulcrap that has prevailed here for Decades - as the ugly Sisters try to plunge their big ugly Foot into someone elses Shoe! These ugly Sistere were aided and abetted by those other Record Companies for Years - perpetating their murderous Lie - and if this is what our Broadcast Industry became as a result of all this perhaps it's just as well it's only got about 2 Years left huh!!!

They're such Nazis you can't even have a decent civilised Conversation with some of them - or make Peace with them...............and to think, I tried both!


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## lighthouse

One thing I have realised though and that is how the People I have met in the last 25-30 Years are probably affiliated to other Record Companies - which says to me that I'd have been better off working for either another Radio Station, spending the last 36 Years somewhere else, being a Journalist for Time Warner - *or just not meeting those People*. The Music Radio Industry is in for a shake up - and probably not before time - and perhaps what happens in 2 Years might have a positive effect on tackling the Sclerosis that set in Years ago. Their - and the BBCs - Policy of the last (insert however many) Years has been reprehensible to say the least, as some of us were deliberately kept out, while the decidedly un-Rock and Roll Record Company interference in everything has done more harm than good. I'm convinced that we had it all appropriated from us and given to a Regime of pathalogical evasiveness and a level of slime that is far too gooey for their own good - ultimately.

I remember how in the 90s I used to get exsaperated with certain People - like Masaryck probably did at Munich when he knew the British and French PMs were selling him out. Quote; "I mean, I'd be upset if I knew I'd been done over - but couldn't quite put a Finger on it" (1988), and was right to metaphorically resign in protest against it!

I said in a letter in 1993 - that I was trying to get home. If Don McClean is a part of that home - and that is in a City 5000 Miles away - then any Investigation by T.W/Aol into the last - what - 30 Years is anything but intrusive! If they find out anything that sheds any light into how everything culminated in the 'coincidence' of 9/11 - that'd be a bonus (and quite a considerable one!)

And when they've collated their 3 Decades of Evidence against Bristols Creative Economy then do to it what the Red Army did to Berlin in 1945. they're horrible People.


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## lighthouse

I like WEA just because they are the only genuine Rock and Roll Record Company - and their (lack of) Attitude has always been conducive to it - or anything you might call a Hippie Creatives Aspirations. Bristol has been made awful by those other Companies and how you could have that genuineness - but get nowhere on any level for Years - even socially. I could write a 30 Year Research Project about it wthout attending a University in my life, and in my instance its something I could comment on since the late 1970s. That's why nothing works - or has worked - and it's wrong, so subsequently I'd like to do forward observation for WEA/Time - Warner based on what I've learned about how a City could become a hotch potch of Stooges for a bunch of Creative Economics that seems to have a chronic and cynical disregard for anything else. Until someone confronts that situation some People don't stand a chance of achieving anything - socially, economically - even emotionally - it's that lousy with it! At least WEA and their Journalists represent something I might equate with what I understood as everything we're supposed to be - what Rock and Roll and Music is supposed to do - and conducive to anything resembling our Aspirations. Can't say the same about the others though!


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## lighthouse

Many US Subscribers won't know that in about 2000/1 a publicly funded Radio Presenter in the UK described a - now - subsidery of Mr Sundins Congolmerate as Quote; "That horrible Company" - and this is someone who worked in the Record Industry before doing Radio, so must have all sorts of Justifications for their Criticisms. All I know is that while these Bosses whinge about a few People exchanging Tunes on the Internet (and spend more money trying to prevent it than they could ever re-coup), they have no regard at all for the ethics of Social Infrastructure, probably Privacy or certain aspects of publicly funded Creative Economics. I reckon every similarly funded concern - from NPR to the BBC - ought to rail against them for what they do, while A.o.L and their Journalist Community begin the Propaganda War that finally brings these Corporate Monsters to Justice.

I have been critical of certain aspects of Capitalism and even the US - but that's because those other Corporatists ran eveything here for Years and obviously never read the Book 'How to make Friends and influence People" or were ever rendered accountable. Their Approach to the Internet Music Exchange (and their Ham Fisted weight throwing in this Example) is similar to their Attitude about Society and People - but T.W/A.o.l's isn't! The latter is how Kennedy ran the US - and how a Record Company ought to operate!


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## daniel_b2380

com'on, i do some long-winded posts,
BUT,
10 [ten] posts, in a row, from the SAME individual! ???
spouting the SAME thing,
this isn't tech news, or even really comments ABOUT tech news,
not even 'civilised' debate,
just a 'random' rant of wanderings and meanderings,
.
maybe move it to random discussions ???
[should have a sub-forum for diatribes / fulminations]


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## lighthouse

Here's another good Reason Not to trust certain Record Companies............................

Don't write to Paul Weller.

I Did, in 1997 - as someone responding to his mentioning how he wanted to form a Band and I wrote saying I was a Bass Gutarist looking for a Group - that sort of thing. In my Letter I said that one of my once favourite Records was a Song by Cat Stevens called "Mathew and Son" from the 1960s. Eveyone knows that Mr Stevens later became Yusef Islam and a Moslem. I don't know what happened to my Letter after I sent it but something went on and a seriously erroneous Assumption made that led to 9/11, and I do know that there is some - erm - Intrigue Squad Involvement with that Companies Business. Although a Record from 1967 might have been recorded by someone who became a Moslem - it doesn't mean that someone who listens to it automatically becomes one too....................probably never would, but all I know is that Mr Weller's 90s stuff was released by the same Company a certain Trip Hop Group is - and there is far too much intrigue about some of this. I'm not sure that any of this bodes too well for Mr Sundins Company at all. Perhaps Musicians are better off not having anything to do with some of this Industry Malarkey and says that there's a bit more to some of these Companies than just a bunch of People releasing Popular Music Records that isn't at all about Music. The Jam and the Style Council might have been awsome - but I think Mr Weller probably contracted a bad Case of 90s Syndrome after then!

Again, another positive for AoL T.W really isn't it - but can the same be said for the others? 

The 90s? Mmm - "I mean. I'd be upset if I knew I'd been done over - but couldn't quite put a Finger on it!". What a crap and totally disengenuous Decade!

As someone who helped make a lot of Peoples lives very exciting indeed I'd like to ask these Hype Merchants why it was all so dull and desperately tedious? What do you have to subscribe to before it improves? If it's all supposed to be such fun why has it been anything but? Why has none of the cheap Talk ever manifested into anything? Oh, and why was the Guitarst associated with Mr Barrow in the 90s wearing an Iron Cross when I saw him about 2 Years ago. (seeth) The 90s eh - what a crap end to the Peoples Century!


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## lighthouse

What I'm saying is that I'd rather have lived in an Area with a predominantly WEA/AOL Presence than one by some of the others. Probably more conducive to anything I might remember - and maybe even be associated with - than any of the false stuff that has contrived its way through the last 25-30 Years. All in all AOL/WEA win the Propaganda War - and even the ethical One in my Book while I don't think TSG Rules allow me to describe what I have to say about any of the others for what they've done, and what they are still doing! It's so bad here - with all its Contrivances and Monsterousness - I joined something that commemorates a bunch of People who confronted something similar nearly 70 Years ago. (It'll give me a Reason to want to do something, get spruced up a bit, feel motivated, and begin shrugging off the almost deliberately induced Grottiness and Inertia). It's either that or be continually stifled in the 'Poison Glen' Clannad once sang about - the worst Film Set in the World!

I saw the Transition in the 90s from what I remembered as a balanced Culture to one of imbalanced Psuedo-Culture and Concreted Erroneousness (I mean, what does a bunch of People who helped make an Industry happen have to do with Chip Shops?) - endorsed by an Industry deracinated from what it was - and subsequently expects everyone else to be! As far as I'm concerned the Peoples Century ought to have ended in 1990 - when its Scribes and Chronologers can say "Look we finally got it right!" - rather than let it decline into the Morass it was becoming in the Years that followed it!


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## lighthouse

I'd still like to know what prompted a networked Music Radio Presenter (whose Employer was THE 90s Radio Station) to describe a Record Company as - Quote "That horrible Record Company!" - so it's not just me is it! Something must have been going on to prompt what - as far as I can remember - was an unprecedented Comment!


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## lighthouse

It's 1995 - we're a local Band who've just played a Radio One Sound City Concert - which in terms of Audience Response and Vibe was rather good. A Month later we do another one (if you can call it that) where we play an uninpiring Venue above a Pub in an outlying part of bristol - so not exactly on the circuit. Literally 4 People turn up for it - and the 'Promoter' (or I think that's what he was called). He claimed to be an A&R for a large Company - which does prompt the question; Erm - so if you are why are we playing here, and - er - have you actually promoted the Gig? He described us as 'The English Green Day' - which puzzled me...................

1: I don't think we sounded anything like the American Band (and I used to have a Copy of Dookie and some of their Singles) - and I'd be interested to know what Billie Joe and the actual Green Day had to say about this if they ever found out - or even their Record Company (WEA).

2: Green Day were a Punk Band - which we weren't - not really - not then, more like post-grunge Indie Rock.

3: Although we were a Trio so were Cream, ELP, The Jam, Buffalo Tom, Manics and 60 Ft Dolls but we didn't sound like any of them either.

What I want to know is what has been happening since all of this and why the interest in our Group now rather than when we were existed at that time? I won't mention who this Promoter claimed to work for (not WEA though) but the usual Industry Malarkey can't be ruled out. It was the Excesses of the Music Biz rather than just Music that made me rediscover Journalism instead of being drawn into all that stuff!


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## lighthouse

What the re-allocation of Radio Licences means is an end to what I call the Saffron Mafia. a cozy Cartel of Media People, Intellectuals, Educationalists and Record Industry types. This lot have been running the Show for Years - to the point where Talent doesn't account for much and Patronage dominates. The Radio Authority - who currently issue the Licence have proved inept and corrupt for so long now that Producers and A&R rely on dubious Market Research Methods rather than doing what they used to do - think up and develop Ideas. This has resulted in the Career Structure for Cynics that has become the rotten Edifice that will one day collapse like any Regime. There are People who aren't really a part of this cozy little Club (although might have helped it happen) regardless of Talent - because in those Years the last Bastion of conservatism - the Entertainment Industry - has become a self-serving Clique. The de-centralisation of it - meaning the unprecedented closing of a Quango - is exactly what it and the Audience has needed for a very long time. Look how arrogant it has become in that time, how cynical and manipulative - cruel even in its Brutality and Neglect. Like anything run like that for too long it becomes a sprawling Monolith with 'Keep out' Signs everywhere, Barbed Wire and Broken Glass and a complacent disregard for anything resembling genuine Creativity.

People might gasp at this but these are the same People who wax Lyrical about the halcyon days of Broadcasting - when the Industry really was innovative, but then of course there was genuine Talent there, who weren't told (behind their backs that they were "on thir way out") - which they erroneously forget. When the Industry becomes accountable to something rather than the Hippies favourite Radio Authority Boss - a former Pop Star - the Patronage ends and so does the Gravy Train Ride for anyone of questionable Talent or Ability. They might also gasp at how someone who grew up with it says this - but he's someone who has seen what the Saffron Mafia is like, seen so many things disappear into it - become exasperated at the lack of anything they might claim as 'Community' and developed a healthy disdain for cynical Pseudo-Culture. Seen how the Heirarchy has developed into a series of concentric rings where People pretend a Culture of Mobilty exists - but it doesn't. The Record Industry has been party to this Process for Years - along with the Celebritocracy and certain Groups, thus also the TV Industry. To see how ridiculous some of it has become look at how a Record Company sues a few People for exchanging Music irrespective of how it will cost more to do so than see it as a form of Promotion and all of this will be confronted in a Couple of Years.

Another thing they have done - which is counter-productive and erroneous is the exact opposite of what they ought to be doing - clamming up and becomeing increasingly hostile and aloof instead of opening up and encouraging. They poison the Environment and then whinge when it backfires on them............while Incentive and Morale have obviously been deleted from their Vocabulary. Look at the detestable atmosphere they created here - deliberately - establishing their Networks of StB or Gestapo - Stooges who skulk the Cafes and Foyers, Rock band Entourages, like Fasolt and Fasolt in the Czechoslovak Hotels in a Book I occasionally wonder if the Author has read for Years. Oh, and then there's the endless succession of juxtapositional Bulcrap they foist on you and call them your Friends. There was a time when they used to venture out and - y'know - do Interveiws. Vox Pops, and be a recogisable Media with a Human Face - instead of the Newspeak Charecters you now hear.I've been on either end of this Interview Process and it's fun and more enjoyable than the obviously pre-empted 'Conversations' that happen instead. (this is when a Cabal gets on their Mobiles and concoct a 'Discussion' so rehearsed it reads like a Script) The BBC has indulged in this so much that NPR sounds more like them than they do these days - and a lot friendlier and spontaneous! They all do Brezhnev/Husak instead of Dubcek/Havel - and I occasionally ask if anyone in Prague after 1989-90 really understood what it was about at all. This is a Symptom of anything that has had its time - when they have become everything they once replaced - and perhaps they should re-examine their Archive of Newsreel from Romania when the Peoples Army became just that and turned their Guns on a Regime that ensured Ceaucescus Dogs were better fed than the People. It is sad to see once liberal and intelligent People become conservative and use that Intellectualism to incarcerate and manipulate rather than liberate and no less sad to see an Artform we used to set People free become almost the opposite! 

When the new Media Revolution happens and the cozy Cartel is finally broken some of us who spent Years in their Gulags and Stalags begin to emerge in a subsequent Environment we might remember from a previous time of improvement and innovation. I say this for the sake of the Industry - not in spite of it. Here's a thought for the BBC and anyone I might know from it (past or present). How long do you think you'd have lasted if in 1967 you had continued with the Formulae you had while ITV and later ILR began to appear? How long would your Journalists have lasted if their Contact Books hadn't been updated after 1989? How long do you think you will last if you become detached from the People who pay your Running costs and Wages - and disappear into your Production and News Room Glory Boxes? How long does the Creative Economy last at all if it can't snap out of the War of Attrition it has become - but then how can it continue if it is bereft of any Vitality and become stale and inert in all its useless Beauty? I remember what happened after an encounter in 2007 - and the complete lack of initiative after, while the politicians began their dark Arts. A totally mis-spent opportunity when they ought to have capitalised on it! How about the Media Unions - and how do you be a Trades Unionist if you don't have a Trade to be a Union in? If this is what it has all become then something as momentus as what will happen in 2012 is probably the only thing that re-invigorates an Industry that has rested on its Laurels for far too long.

The Saffron Mafia have enjoyed their Cliquist Coziness for long enough and are now the hateful rotten Cloth that will disintergrate once their Career Structure is dismantled in a couple of Years time. This is very good News indeed for Music, Infotainment and Culture. I feel a combination of Vindication and Dispair as I am now 45 Years old and now see them as they live their established 40 Something lives - developed when I was in their Gulag/Stalag not able to access anything or anyone to become similarly established. At least now this means that they can't live out this Regimius Smugness until they retire and the Corruption that ensured the Regime continued unchecked for Years comes to an end also! We no longer have to subsidise their corrupt and complacent lives and they fall on the Sword of their own Arrogance!

This is their Punishment for the Monstrosities they concocted in the latter Years of the 1990s! The end of the sick, sadistic Joke they all contrived around their 'This Life' Dinner Party Tables!


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## lighthouse

The People who made this decision probably reached a similar conclusion I did.

It's not enough to tweak the Legislation as they have over the Years..........a Community Radio License here, Very local Radio there - invent the Restricted Service License (RSL) - even the Technology used to produce and broadcast it. I realsied that it's not enough to give these People anything - the Door remains slammed in your Face - or you get fobbed off with irrelevant People (as they did in the 90s) or some Group that doesn't even get a Concert every once in a while. In its current form all it does is assimilate - but won't intergrate - and the Saffron Network continues on its Merry go Round - like any attrophic Regime has done for Decades. I was in my 20s when this starts (although some of it was happenng before even becoming an Adult), and I can understand why the entire System needs restructuring. In its current form it doesn't just stop creative Development but also imposes a life ruinous Regime on People in circumstances unacceptable in the late 20th - early 21st Century. This applies to the Music Industry too - and these Improvements will do more to effect a positive development in it than anything else!

Then, that Door we opened for many People - will finally be opened for us! Until then it can't - and the same attrophic Damage and depressingly oppressive sclerosis prevails!As the Journalist I interveiwed in 1992 has to admit - any cynical career Structure starts facilitating Evil - bringing out the worst in People like a Dictatorship might have done, a Glibness that can't ackowledge that there might be a Problem and one that has a chronic Disregard for anything - even Peoples lives. The Per Sundins of this world are in for one hell of a Surprise when all this happens!


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## lighthouse

The Music of the 90s UK was a complete disaster for us in that it established so many awful Precedents - none of which can be denied now (after all, it's all there in the Record Libraries of Radio and TV), while all sorts of dubious Involvements begin that corrupted it completely. I don't think it's too much to say that a similar thing began happening to our Entertainment Industry as did in the Russian Federation when former - erm - Researchers began to work for the Oligarch Economy of Boris Yeltsin. The sort of hassles I've had can only be happening due to something like that - while this might also explain the Erroneousness of some of it. It's horrible - and worse when you see the now 40 Somethings who were on the positive side of this Equation (many now former Media/Creative Economy) and says much about the almost Mechanist Attitude of those who were running it all. Why does a Music Radio Presenter diss a Record Company? What do those Companies do to coerce or otherwise distort to ensure continued Agenda and invoke such criticism?

Also, I have seen so many things disappear into that Saffron Club of theirs that it begins to become physically painful. It seemed that the longer it continued the more voracious it became until it had become so assumptive it almost presumed a divine right to do so. It becomes a Paradox in that it trades on all aspects of Socialising - but doesn't make any effort to be sociable. People - Contributors - who were very much a part of the development Process - left in bleak High Streets for Years getting abused by those not even born when they were writing or working, while they have to see the Results of their Labours happening in the Music Press or TV. Then you have the Social Engineering that deliberately steers them away from the Party they helped happen and they endure what I've had to in recent Years. This isn't just being done over - its being assasinated slowly, having a Limb torn off and - made to feel bleak and grotty by it all when it should induce the opposite.

There have been many attempts to re-invigorate the Creative Economy (mentioned earlier), and to a certain extent it worked for a while, but the usual Cliques prevailed and is as monolithic as always. The complete restructuring of it is the only way of finally confronting the Sclerosis of Years. Being in the Industry - growing up with it - isn't enough. There were times when I was in the Beeb in Bristol but felt I might as well not be - and I do ask what you have to subscribe to (I joined a Media Union and observed the BBC Production Guidelines). Even Friendships of Years seemed incapable of preventing a gradual sense of Isolation and this is how the Corporate Entertainment Structure worked at that time. More recently - instead of seeing anyone relevant to what we mght have been doing all I seemed to see were those negative Networkers I mentioned. Some were quite pleasant People I suppose but I always felt as if an Attrophy had established itself while a chronic lack of integration continued. This has been diasterous on a personal level and I welcome anything that finally tackles this once and for all.

I also welcome the Backlash against whatever Celebritocracy that emerged in the last Years of the soon to be previous Regime as the Truth about how some of it happens begins to appear. I sometimes think that the People who made this Decision have been observing and enquiring about what has been happenng here to see what did go wrong in 2001 - why some are deliberately excluded - and then get a Regime if the usual Excuses and why others seem to spend their lives so assured it makes you want to throw up! What happens here - despite being where much of what we now know as Culture starts - that doesn't happen in London for example? Why do I get a reply to an Email from a Radio Two Presenter within Hours but don't from someone in the Bristol Media Scene? (I got a bit worried about this - something to do with a Bristol based Human Rights Project and a Trip to 1990 Prague). What corrupting Influences are exerted here that aren't in the Capital? How much narco-involvement for example? All of this is why I call the local lot a Saffron Mafia and the criticism is completely justified - while those observing (non)events here deem it unacceptable to have something paid for by all of us, contributed to by some of us - but only accesable to a few of them! Too much disappearing into it - too many lame and pathetic Excuses afterwards in a situation that wasn't Rocket Science to avoid! Too many potentially decent Lives being ruined by it too! Iread an Essay I wrote when I was still only 25 Years old - how much did that make happen - and realised how long ago it was - while remembering how crap the intervening Years have been! (and I worked at the Beeb in Bristol for 3 of them - so what went wrong there folks?)

Because this Area has corrupted so much of our Infotainment Culture in the last 10-12 Years (probably more) it needs doing to it what Vladimir Putin did to Chechnya. It has become that bad! Thus, the Entertainment Revolution that dismantles all of it - and demolishes that wretched Saffron Wall of theirs!


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## lighthouse

All of this is why I'd like to see AOL/T.W take over Bristols Creative Economy. Any Report I'd have about it would be less than flattering in the Circumstances.The Combination of this and these huge Restructurings of the Broadcast Industry could mean that some of us might stand a chance - oh, and not fall prey to the disasterous Erroneousness and Intrigues - Inertia and Exclusions - Cynicisms and Manipulations - Whimsys and Feyness - I've known from it! It might even become a City where positive things actually happen rather than theoretical or abstract! Do you know what's really stupid about all this? By keeping me out in some ways they kept out themselves! They might be a bit surprised to read this but they ought to remember that I haven't just spent the last 25-30 Years in a nice cushy Job in that Creative Economy - enjoying its Clubs and Bars, doing all those Hippie Yuppie Dinner party things or raising a Family in it! Loyalty is earned not expected or extorted! To this Day I'm convinced the wrong People went to Prague that time too! I tend to be a bit more inclusive than perhaps those that did!

Now, who was it invented the Radio Phone-in Programme?


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## lighthouse

Why was Prague 1990 such a disaster?

Instead of this Guy going to see Representatives of the Czechoslovak Culture Ministry - as was supposed to happen, those that did were Proxies of Bristols Saffron Mafia - and when I say that I mean Drugs, and from what I can remember of late 80s/early 90s Bristol its Hippie Scene had a combination of Narco-Fascism and a rather heavy Attitude. These People didn't just meet some Band Manager or Nite-Club Boss - they met someone involved with a Government. Can those Hippies associated with those who did guarentee that their Scene is safe? From what I remember of it it certainly wasn't - and It'd be a very dangerous Precedent indeed if some of those People later got involved with whatever transpired in the Czechoslovak Capital. This Area has Money - and a lot of the Accutrements of Wealth - but certain aspects of it are like a 15th Century Fiefdom in all ts Brutality and Backwardness. This is going to be disaterous when it involves a Government with full legislative and executive Powers and the most feted President in the World. No one has told me what transpired in 1990, and the attitude of those concerned is that of Bristol in the late 1980s. That's why I've compared this to the Chechnya of Britain - with Bristol as its Grozny - while 'Saffron Mafia' isn't an unjustified Comment. If you don't subscribe to it (as I didn't) you don't get anywhere - in anythng - literally!

Everything just disappears into it - as I have seen so many tmes. Once the Record Companies get involved a bad Situation can become infinately worse because of their obsession with Prestige, and becomes the veritable Nightmare if it begins influencing Culture on a national level, while once the Saffron Mafia reaches its 40s the Attitude gets very nasty as they all attempt to become respectable and the Lies fly thick and fast to consolidate it.


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## lighthouse

Something I found odd about Bristol though was how it didn't have an NUJ Meeting for 4 Years (1992-6). Isn't that a bit strange that a City of over half a Million, with 3 Radio Stations at the time (GWR, Galaxy, and Radio Bristol), 2 Regional TV Services (BBC and HTV), 2 Regionally published Newspapers (Western Daily Press and Evening Post), and a Fortnightly What's on and Arts Magazine (Venue) plus whatever district News Services - doesn't have a monthly Gathering of the Journalists Union? I'm not surprised it might have become something of an Anomaly in the UK during those Years with all its Idiosyncracies and Peculiarities! Any metaphorical Dudayev or Baseyev is going to find it rather ripe for their Influences, along with anyone else in conflict with the Aspirations of either the Union or Journalism with such a lack of Solidarity within it! Corruption could develop unopposed, Journalists victimised or coerced and their work compromised in the subsequent Isolation. The Result of all this has seeped so far into our Culture System now that only a complete restructuring of it can improve the Situation.......and this will have an effect on the Record Industry!


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## wolfworx

Times change. There was a time -- I'm an old f**t  -- when most of the clubs (bars, taverns,etc.) had a live band several times a week. Now a days few clubs feature live music on Saturday night. Wedding receptions always had live bands.

Live music has been replaced by the DJ! This is a sad loss. :down: We now miss the experience of a unique "at-this-moment" musical performance. What is even more important, there is no longer the wide opportunity for up and coming musicians to develop their talent in front of a live audience. It is no surprise that the quality of music is eroding since it has fewer "fields of play". Fortunately, this has not happened to sporting events. Athletes still have a great number of live venues to display their skills.


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## lighthouse

A lot of this explains why we have such a brutal Culture and a Stupid and erroneous Music Industry. It was considerably and disproportionately influenced by a City that didn't even have a decent Industrial Relations Infrastructure. (As someone who represented NUJ Cause Celeb John McCarthy it's a bit of a Paradox). Anything that isn't supposed to happen happens as there was no Support for Journalists at that time, and you get an Environment that is pure Business in all its excessive forms - while the only assistance comes from a very subjectivised source indeed! This Atmosphere spread to the rest of the UK - and to a certain extent the rest of the World.


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## tomdkat

Elvandil said:


> I was addressing more the absolutely ridiculous expenditure of time and resources going after a handful of the millions of "criminals" that download music, just to make examples of them in an effort to scare people into compliance. These tactics have led more than a few people i know to decide they would never purchase CD's or DVD's again. Does the news that some single mother, scraping by on a dead-end job, and then being prosecuted because her children downloaded music, really contribute to the greater good?


Well, the reason the RIAA goes after those who do the downloading is they are the "easy" target. Those "publishing" the content for illegal download are a much harder target to find but when those people are found, they are dealt with accordingly.

I've read some of the other comments in this thread and several raise points I think miss the issue completely.

First, the problem isn't with the technology itself. "MP3" and "WMA" are not the problem. They are simply digital audio file formats, just like AAC, Ogg, FLAC, Dolby Digital, dts, etc.

Second, downloading digital audio files from P2P networks isn't _necessarily_ the "problem". By this, I mean the simple act of downloading a MP3 or WMA file from KaZaa isn't "the problem". The relates to the next point.

Third, downloading digital audio files from P2P networks isn't the same thing as recording music from the radio.

Here's the deal: this is about control of the content. When a radio station broadcasts music, they are *authorized* to do so. Some stations have their playlists and they stick to those playlists. When a DJ does something they aren't supposed to do (like play a track they are not authorized to play), the station pays a fine and the DJ possibly disciplined. If an artist publishes their work on a P2P network for consumption, that is *ok*. If the artist publishes their work on a P2P network for consumption when they should not have done so, that is a possibly legal issue for the artist and the other party to which the artist is obligated.

The problem arises when unauthorized parties (read us consumers) take it upon themselves to make content they didn't create available for general and anonymous consumption without notifying or getting the permission of those who own the rights to said content. It's as simple as that.

The music is NOT free. The music is the work of the artist and it's *up to them* to decide how to distribute their work and how much to charge for it, if they want to charge anything at all. The problem is people were enamored with the capability introduced to them through the advent of P2P technology that they felt they had the *right* to use it _any way they wanted_ and this isn't right.

P2P networks can be used to legitimately distribute content legally so I don't like it when people refer to "file sharing" in a generic sense when discussing this particular issue.

Here's a question: how popular would the P2P networks be for finding music to download if people *did not* start publishing digital music without authorization? Before Napster got shut down, I did my share of downloading music from that network. What interested me was the unbelievable selection of almost "random" music that was available and supposedly for "free". I didn't download thousands of songs but I download more than a handful. I don't do that now and haven't down that for a _long_ time.

I think electronic distribution of digital content is great but only as it's used appropriately.

Peace...


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## lighthouse

It's 1999 and the now Prime Minister meets a Guy who has just done an Anti-Poverty Walk. At the time they say - right - it's a Bunch of People who've just done an Anti-Poverty walk, then they begin making Enquires They find out that rather a lot of Media and Culture Stuff happened because of this Guy who has just done this Anti-poverty walk, which means quite a few People have known anything but because of him, and they ask why he's doing this Campaign at all. They trace the Story back to Bristol, and begin to find out what I've known about it for a very long time and they aren't impressed. 9/11 happens and they're even less impressed - and none too enamoured that the Culture Ministry now has to do an almost gargantuan task of Creative Economics Diplomacy to convince the rest of the World - particularly GWB - of the Virtues and Competences of that Economy. They then ask why the proverbial Music Died - and begin to see the same Scleroses, Cynicisms and Attrophies I've railed against.

As a result of this they draught the Legislation that will be enacted in a Couple of Years - but decide to keep it in reserve for a while to see what happens. Well, nothing does - until it looks like it might in 2007, but instead of a reversal of the Process that meant someone is doing an Anti-poverty Campaign when he'd probably be working in the Industry, or the 'Coincidence' that led to 9/11 - it gets spivved as usual, the same old Face reasserts itself, and the Saffron Mafia continues in its ultra-conservative way as if nothing had happened. They know about the Email (as they're going to) and realise that there is a Problem in Bristol that doesn't exist in London (Janis isn't ultra-conservative Bristol Hippie Bulcrap). 

So where's the Sponteneity of 18 Years ago? they ask - oh, yeah - that was 18 Years ago and much has been established since and has become set in Concrete, but nevermind eh there's always the Union! Ah - this hadn't convened in Bristol for 4 Years in those crucial early-mid 90s and the whole thing looks like Culturo-Political Gerimander. (Erm - so how are People supposed to resolve their Grievances - or not be misquoted or misrepresented if there's no Industrial Relations Infrastructure? A Union Meeting is real - not a bunch of psuedo-scientific, occultic or culturally and factually dubious verbiage met - by arrangement - in a Street). People who don't subscribe to Bristols Saffron Mafia Narco-Hippie Club can't network as they might in any other City in the UK and there's all this Stuff happening that is inaccessible to them because of it. Just exactly how fractured, how sclerotic, is it in Bristol - how ultra-conservative is the West Country? Hmm - not surprised this Guy got signed off with Depression Years ago in such an unreasonable, desolate and dismal Regime........while he has the concurrent Knowledge that he's probably subsidised much of it for about 30 Years. These Hippies are so slimy aren't they - and do they know how hateful and conservative they look in their now 40 Something established lives once they manipulated all of this? What their hateful conservatism and spivvery has done to the intellectual and cultural life of the UK is terrible and what it has done to Music Sheeeesh!!!!!!! 

The Legislation draughted a few Years ago is dusted off and they announce to the Media Unions that it becomes statute in 2 Years as the only way to confront all those Negatives their Research has unearthed! Sometimes doing an Anti-poverty Campaign doesn't just protest against Poverty - it also begins a Process of Investigation as to its Causes. Maybe there are a few good Socilaists left in the Labour Party after all but this Legislation will happen regardless of who is in charge by then - or what their name might be!

Oh, and I hope they're reading this at Congress House too by the way!


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## lighthouse

wolfworx said:


> Times change. There was a time -- I'm an old f**t  -- when most of the clubs (bars, taverns,etc.) had a live band several times a week. Now a days few clubs feature live music on Saturday night. Wedding receptions always had live bands.
> 
> Live music has been replaced by the DJ! This is a sad loss. :down: We now miss the experience of a unique "at-this-moment" musical performance. What is even more important, there is no longer the wide opportunity for up and coming musicians to develop their talent in front of a live audience. It is no surprise that the quality of music is eroding since it has fewer "fields of play". Fortunately, this has not happened to sporting events. Athletes still have a great number of live venues to display their skills.


What they've done is stifle that essential Sponteneity that made Music - even Life - what it ought to be. A live Gig is worth a myriad of Rehearsals - but this has disappeared. Even this Town has seen a diminished amount of Venues in the relentless pursuit of Corporatism, while the DJ can get 1000s of Pounds for doing a Session in a Club and the Band might get their Expenses - if they're lucky. Paradoxically, those DJs used to make for the Balearic Islands in the mid-late 80s because they didn't want to do the Corporate Clubs of the time - the Discoteque. They'd take a bunch of their fave Records and do a Beach Party or something with a glorified Stereo - and their Mates - on what became known to Cultureland as Ibiza. Now Ibiza has been colonised by this - to the point where it resembles any UK City Centre - they went to Ayanapa and began the same Process, but in Britain they became the Superclub DJs and Producers of the 90s. All of this has meant that there are People convinced that Music comes from 12' Discs, and Samplers - forgetting that an indigenous Sound appeared somewhere. The Decline of Live Music has compounded this!


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## lighthouse

But what has happened to the Industry now - and why these Companies are like they are begins at the start of the 90s. To this day I don't know what transpired in the Czechoslovak Capital - or afterwards - but remembering what Bristol was like at that time it looks as if stuff got passed on to the sort of People you don;'t want to pass stuff like that on to! Bristol - including its Hippie Scene and the 'profesionals' working in it was rough - *Saffron Crooks and Champagne Hippies *- while the BBC Stuff was incidental to it and a City whose Journalist Union doesn't have a Meeting for 4 Years. This has meant that not only less than scrupulous People had an influence on the local Media Scene (including Public Sector) it also meant it began having an effect on whatever transpired after Prague and 1991. This is how it looks to me and I'm beginning to think IHR and many other things might have been better off not being based in late 80s/early 90s Bristol at all.

I think Janis Long would probably have been be rather more conducive to anything I understood as the BBC *(at least she bothers to reply to Emails as and when)* - or even our Project, Human Rights and Pro-Democracy - than some I could mention here too! (I'd rather she'd got involved with our Project than some that did - hell, she'd probably even speak too). The 1990s would be rather different to what it became for some of us that's for sure. Because from what I remember of Bristol it has had such a corrupting effect on everything the Industry now needs a complete restructure to put it right! What peeves me about much of this is how we spent the 80s saying 'one day there'll be an improvement' - but you start seeing that improvement getting hijacked by the sort of People who will corrupt and distort it so in some ways it starts to feel worse in the following Decade. The Saffron Mafia becomes the Institution - and unless you subscribed to it before, during and after 1990-1 the Events of that time might as well have not happened! Bristol suffers from Weapons of Mass Erroneousness anyway so what happens when that begins to interfere with everything on a national and international level?

People there will be surprised to read this - but when in all those years was I working for any length of time, raising a Family, or being part of its Social Scene - even during those crucial Years 1990-1? That exploitative Environment has now radiated out to the rest ot the Country and is awful to the point where I welcome what they are about to do to the Industry I've known all my life! Mr Havel ought to read this too because his aspirations were betrayed in this Process!


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## lighthouse

What I like about the new Legislation is how it says to those who did get established in that time when things were - shall we say - uncertain 'No you don't.......................not anymore', and to achieve this we have to dismantle your System and effectively start again! When some of them start to whinge about it just remember that the Ethos of Public Service Broadcasting manifests in an Email Response from Radio Two a few Years ago, NOT the Regime of early 90s Bristol! What it also means is that the Beeb will probably regroup after any Traumas it might have because of what is happening now - and what the new System will bring. Interestingly it'll give them the chance to become what they might have been before the later Years of the decade of Bulcrap, as the Pubic/Commercial Demarcation becomes clearer, their Producers can do what they were once brilliant for - Production - while the Patronage of Years is confronted. It's unacceptable to have some of the things I can remember from Stuff happening outside the Publicly funded Sector having an effect on it - while this establishes itself and become deemed 'normal' which it isn't.


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## lighthouse

People might ask how the re-allocation of Broadcast Licences is going to affect the Radio, Record and TV Industry!

Every 7 Years a Radio Network - whether it's a big national Station like GWR or a Community Group doing an RSL for a few days - has to apply to the Radio Authority/DTI for a Broadcast Licence. When they do they do so on the understanding that they will work to the Rules and Guidelines given by the IBA or BBC. Because the R.A is a Government body and part of the Civil Service they can plead Ignorance to any Grievances raised by anyone and the Debacle kept in a Loop for Years. Now those Licences are applied for to the Telecoms Industry they can study the Guidelines and Rules, say to an Applicant 'You've been in breach of some or most of these for Years and subsequently we're not going to renew your Licence'. The Radio Station could start to swagger about a bit and give them the 'but we're (name) - and etc...................' and the Telecoms People say 'So what - there are plenty of new Media Companies - with Internet Infrastructure, plenty of Programme Content, and could acquire Transmission Equpment (D.A.B or FM/AM/SW/LW) within Months who haven't violated any of the Rules.

The Radio Boss might get cute and try and induce them to offer the Licence anyway - while the Telecoms Company says 'You're joking right - if the DTI found out we would lose our Licence to trade. Y'see this was their Domain for Years and they might have become a bit lapse but being the Civil Service they aren't/or can't be closed down like we can - while having that 'immunity' that always renders the C.S unaccountable - hence any protracted Grievance Loop. Because the Companies who will be responsible for this in the future can and are accountable, the DTI solves its 2 main problems with typically 'Yes Minister' (hillarious 80s T.V Comedy about Politics) Aplomb as Sir Humphrey Appleby simultaneously relinquishes direct Responsibilty - but not the ultimate Decision about Broadcasting'.

This will affect the Record Industry because they are very cozy with Music Radio and could also be implicated in any Transgression of the Regulations, find that their Partner in this Process are no longer trading, and subsequently A&R and Research and Development Departments become redundant. There are also plenty of TV Producers involved in this - particularly those responsible for Terrestrial Music Television - who could find they are redundant too! What this means for the BBC - who make their Application for the Royal Charter every 7 Years, the Advertising Industry - or any Cable and Satellite Channel Broadcasting in their Jurisdiction is a Question for them!


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## lighthouse

The Attrophy of the Industry begins as early as 1992-3 (I sensed it even while working at the Beeb - and how People were becoming incapable of the sort of Sponteneity that existed a few Years earlier). This continues as they became extensions of their Record Collections - living their lives by stuff written as long ago as the 1950s - or using 60s and 70s lyrical References to apply to others in the 1990s. What they conveniently forgot was that while these 60s-70s references were happening the World was very different and so were the lives of many Millions of People. This is why everything became what it has been for at least 15 Years.........but also why the now Corporatised Attitude is just as sclerotic and imposes that on everything else..............including those others who remember a time when Sclerosis was done away with.

The People about to take over the Industry know exactly what these Attrophy Merchants have been up to for Years (it's the Telecoms Industry after all ) - all their Tricks, Games, Lies, Crimes, Coercions, Contrivances and Corruptions (and they collate it legally) and everything that has conspired to stifle the life out of everything. What makes this worse is how those responsible for Regimius Tediusmus also ought to remember a time when it wasn't like this - but play along with the Situation anyway.

It's so bad now that it's as if it does need closing down and starting again! While I remember that time when Sponteneity took over from Sclerosis, I also remember the years since, what some People became in that Period, and I don't see why we should subsidise them anymore!

Sorry Folks but there is very scant opportunity for some of us to have much Nostalgia throughout much of this, and what your Attitude and this Regime did to us is unacceptable in its current form! *How does being stranded in a small town Street for 12 Years constitute being part of anything?* All I know is I was anything from 15 to 28 when this started - I'm 45 now!

It's 1964 and Blake and his Crew are about to get their Revenge!


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## lighthouse

If Radio Licences are issued by a Telecoms Company it means that a new Culture of Honesty - or at least the Truth - begins to emerge. There'll be none of the Erroneousnes of Years - made so by Money or some dubious Culturo-Political Decision making! Wow - People won't be consigned to a Gulag or Stalag anymore while the Subjective Agents of Psuedo Objectivity continue their Careers after a Purge. The Issuer will know who is telling the Truth - because all conversations and SMS is recorded by the Networks. None of the cozy Cartels of the last 25-30 Years - and those that exist now now only have a few Years left because the Truth about them will begin to emerge too - form the lowliest Programme Assistant to the highest Echelon Producer, so none of the Media Black arts either.................while any Info gleaned by Telecoms doesn't have to prostrate itself to an erroneous or deliberatley obstructive Editor either! It gives a huge amount of Leverage to a very Objective Ombudsman indeed!

If someone somewhere set out to combat Sleaze in the Industry this is one very effective means of doing it - and oh, how it needs it!


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## lighthouse

What it means is this......................................

If you're a Crook in the Media or Showbizness - and you have a Mobile for example - those Companies are going to know who you are and what you've been up to for however long you used that Network. What they'll then say to you is 'If you want to be a Crook - be a Crook - live outside it all like Marlon Brando in the Wild One and take whatever Consequences are due to you - but don't be one in the Industry People trust for their Information and Entertainment'. They could also say 'This Industry has been sleazy and sclerotic for a very long time and could only be so if you use the sort of Methods seen as unacceptable enough in the 1940s - let alone now, and suffice to say that those you've used to enforce this aren't the sort of People who would - I dunno - fund cuddly things like Public Works Programmes or something'. Sclerotic? well, this "Stuck in the Middle with............" Angle has been played out since 1991 - but how have you ensured that could continue for 18 Years? What sort of People have been enforcing that one for example - even if it involves something shall we say esoteric? Yeah, drone blah P.R - but we know what's really been going on don't we. What will this mean for the BBC and the Licence revenue - worth more than 2 Bn Pounds a Year - some of which is allocated to Channel 4...................but then what does the anti-sleaze Legislation mean for ITVs second TV Network - along with Channel 5 - and it's Advertising Revenue?

All of this gong to make a lot of People look a bit like those Villains at the end of "Get Carter"! 

This Situation has maintained the cozy Cartel for Years - and all it does is assimilate and continue completely unaccountable. As that Process finally comes to an end we might get the sort of honest Broadcasting that used to happen in Bristol and Cardiff when a former Diplomat opened a T.V Network that was both regional (Bristol) and national (Cardiff) n the late 1960s!

And y'know, the cumulative effect of Years of Misery inflicted by this Regime - the amount of stuff I've seen disappear into it and the Brutality that ensured it all - not just to me but to others too - has meant that I'm going to be THE most honest Website Subscriber on this Subject you will ever read!

Perhaps the Spirit of RFK - but not the Age eh - still exists after all!


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## lighthouse

.........And that might not be a bad Idea at all............................When ITV implodes on its mutated 90s/Post 90s form (at last), maybe a new Ormsby Gore could establish T.V Networks like the former Ambassador did in the late 60s. Then everything is known from day One, with none of the Games I remember being played out at the Beeb in Bristol - or by its wretched Hippie Scene, but all of the very crucial Certainties you have when something new happens and eveyone involved is also included - and something resembling Honesty prevails.

The thing I remember about what it used to be like was the Fear, a deliberate Psychology designed to undermine Confidence if you have disagreements with other Media Workers - but just wanted to do your Job..............or if stuff was getting appropriated and you might raise justifiable Grievances about it. I'm not naiive about it - I was being told about Media Union disputes with Management before I was 20 Years old - and I know as well as anyone in it that it's a competitive Industry - but it isn't THAT competitive! People complaned about my appearance - but while the Fear persisted I could be Mr Fastitious - but it would never have made any difference. Reduce the stress level by a few Million % and things would improve! Suffice to say that how it was run at that time wasn't conducive to anything you would call public funded Broadcasting! What I do like about the Telecoms take over is how those Companies have got all the Diss on how that - and similar - Regimes were run - and it's taken down, ready to be used as Evidence against them in 2012! I've got a very good memory for events and know that there is going to be plenty of Evidence when that time comes! About time a few cliquist Hippie Nazis got routed once and for all!

As a Journalist it'll also be very useful indeed if you ever had to confront a sleazy Political or anyone else in Societal Influence, and what this new Media will do is unblock the Creative Process - free up Talent - and do away with the sort of 'Patronage' I remember existed before! It does what the Media has always claimed to do - but thus far hasn't - democratise Society like it has never been before!

What a brilliant means to solve any disputes too! If you've got Hassles at work for example, instead of taking it to your Union (and mine didn't even meet in Bristol for 4 Years in the early-mid 90s) or having to rely on the very subjective opinion of another Creative, you contact the Company that issues your Bosses Broadcast Licence, give them some Names, Dates and who you work for - they consult their Calls Log and say "You're right, you are being victimised, bullied etc. Hmmm - we'll be having a Word with your Boss and you can expect an Apology, probably a few Resignations by those concerned and maybe even some Compensation depending on whatever Damage you've sustained by any of this!" A superbly objective and totally honest Proceedure to confront the sort of stuff some get subjected to - but shouldn't!

Until then, and while those S/DOBs are still working in it - or having an influence on it - there isn't any point at all in applying for anything!


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## lighthouse

I reckon certain Peoples Attitude towards our Human Rights Project is a Metaphor for the Industries Attitude now. I'd like to ask those People what their Motive was for getting nvolved with what we were doing then - asking "When you got your Copy of or Album did you see a Human Rights Project Compliation Record - or just another Hippie Rock and Roll Album?" I'd then say " If the Answer to this is the former then where was your Commitment to Human Rights during and just after its Duration - if it was the latter why get involved with us at all - why not the People doing the 'Now' Albums or 'The (Genre) Album in the World ever'?" Were we seen as a soft Target rather than having to deal with the very ruthless and cut-throat People in the Corporate Music Industry? Much of this might explain the almost relentless Spivvery that happened almost from that time, and some of the Contempt that has occured since. If this has permeated the Industry afterwards then I'm not the least surprised that everything is as bleak as it is now. It's had the life stifled out of it!

Whatever the Answer to this there is another question too! As No Doubt re-recorded one of the songs from the Album - Gwen concurrently asks "What are you waiting for?" on another of their Recordings - After everything awful that has happened the Answer to that could be "For the Malign Hex to take effect". Perhaps those concerned ought to remember a certain TV Commercial in the Context of this and what is going to happen to the Entertainment Industry n 2012 when Bob Hoskins says "It's good to talk!" Some did at that time in the early 90s - while others conspiculously didn't!


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## lighthouse

From what I heard last night the Radio Industry is in more trouble than either it realises or is letting on about..........................

One of the Networks - despite broadcasting the most listened to Show of the ILR Week - the Chart Show - only had one Commercial Sponsor throughout. This says much about how little Revenue they are making at the moment and it probably applies to other Stations too! ITV is having similar problems and are doing exactly what they shouldn't in the Circumstances - merging and over centralising! What this does mean though s that when it collapses in its current form (as it all should) there are going to be huge Areas of the UK that don't have any TV Media Representation, and this is where Ormsby Gore 2 appears and does what O.G 1 did 41 Years ago - establishes the Networks to cater for them. Channel 4 exists partly because of its subsidy from the Government via the Licence but Channel 5 doesn't - thus the potential for a Merge there too!

This is all the result of Years of Control Freakery and everything the Industry does to preseve its Monopoly on the Creative Process, Peoples lives - and how we get our Information. They gave some of us a huge disincentive to have any interest at all in it as it is now and every reason to look forward to its Demise. It might all be nice and cozy in that Saffron Mafia world of theirs but for some of us it has meant Years of NFA (No fun at all).


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## Fluffmatic

Joss Stone loves music piracy






"Its all about the music, not the business, people forgot that"


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## lighthouse

Here's one very justfiable Reason why the Music Industry is in trouble............

http://www.lyrics-celebrities.aneka...love-in-this-club-lyrics-usher-ft-young-jeezy

Now, I might be missing the Point here but I don't remember songs like this in 1990/1.This is the Result of Years of what I call CFCs (Control Freak Culture), pre-emptive, almost deliberately cultivated and creatively dubious. This is what they've been up to around here for Years.

I'm not sure what's worse, a Bunch of Teutonic Rockers sounding like Hitler and his mates form a Band, someone telling everyone how it's wrong of us to Breed (so - erm -Louise - perhaps the Renton Monologue in Trainspotting is your Idea of Lurve then right?), the horrible Charecter from a Who Rock Opera...........................or this.

It's like it really did become a sort of Babylon - in all its Contrivances, its Indulgences all its..........................Aaaaaaggghhhhhhhhhh, noooooooo, (cold sweat runs down Lighthouse's Back! - "Shivers down my Backbone" indeed - except not the sort that the Pirates sang about!)

Sheesh - there's something to be said for all those Boy meets Girl, Man meets Woman songs after all huh!

Hmmm - the Radio Phone-in Show, an old British Telecom Commer Van (which I lived in for a while), Bob Hoskin's Commercial - and what is about to happen to the Entertainment Industry - Yep, It's good to talk - bad not to!

Why can't we take over - and try to put it right!!!!

If there are any other Media Workers who have a similar opinion about all of this as I do I'll say this..............................

I know we are a disperate Bunch - occasionally feisty - always asking why etc - but this Areas Media Community is THE disfunctional of the Disfunctional. Other Regions probably read this with a certain amount of Bemusement - but it's true, the West Country must have the most Fractured Creatve Community in the UK (our Union didn't even convene for 4 Years in the early-mid 90s), so any potential arguements against some of the most absurd and occasionally horrible excesses of Corporate Entertainment are stifled because of that very fractured Environment. I excercised my 'sacred duty to resist' - are you?


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## lighthouse

Here's how the Beeb could ensure against the Spivvery that happened after 1993...........

Ever-so-slightly intrigued BBC Boss: (Sigh) "Right, you and you in my Office in an Hour!"

(An Hour elapses - those concerned turn up for the Meeting)

BBC Boss: "So, what's going on then?"

(2 People look slightly bemused although one sort of knows what he's referring to)

BBC Boss; "Hmmm - alright, I'll clarify!" (throws copy of Album onto ther Desk) "This!"

One of the Attendants: "Ah - thought so - the Album yeah?!"

BBC Boss: "Yeah, the Album - now I know both of you are involved with this - his Photo is on the Artwork and he's made some Radio Programmes about it - how about you?"

(Someone starts to look a bit awkward)

BBC Boss; "Look, you don't have to get all awkward about any of it - we just know that you're involved with this too..................and it has even involved a trip to Prague to meet some Government Culture Ministry People!"

(Slight look of surprise from someone - other Person looks relieved!)

BBC Boss: "That'll be all for now - but we'll continue this in a week - in which time both of you speak to the Project Organisers and get as much info as you can about the Project and the Czechoslovak Stuff!"

They do this - slightly bemused as to what to expect in the allotted time a Week later.

A Week later............................

BBC Boss: "Brilliant, right - here are some Tickets to Prague, your Accommodation and Recording Equipment! We want you both to make a Series of Programmes about the recent Revolution, the Dissident Movement and Czechoslovak Rock and Pop Music - even an Interview with Mr Havel. If - via People working here - we have a connection with all this we might as well get something out of it!"

And thus, BBC Local and Regional - maybe even Network - Radio gets some rather interesting Programming, the Air is cleared, Communication established and Integrity ensured. No one feels left out and some of the things that were supposed to happen - actually do - instead of all the things that weren't!

Objectivity wins over the Subjective - while the Culture Vulture 90s Record Bosses are kept in check so to speak!


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## lighthouse

I suppose what has happened to the Entertainment and Broadcasting Industry in however many Years is what happened to San-Francisco in the Years from 1965 to 1970. What was once a City of new Ideas, Inspiration and Alternativism had become sleasy, manipulative, squalid and corrupt. Money wasn't the Problem either as the Groups were making huge amounts of ti by the late 1960s and it was the Cause of most of them. Look what happend here as the Creative Economy moved in in the early 90s and Money dictates Decisions rather than anything else. Subsequently the Social Infrastructure here doesn't work at all for some but totally for others! Paradoxically there are Broadcasters who have seen many Cultural Epochs and subsequently probably have certain agreements about it that others since haven't and don't. (And here I mean those not responsible for the very conservative and disasterous Decisions made in Bristol). It isn't just Music Media People either - as others who have observed Societal Development as Journalists have a similar Attitude about it. If you began working in the Biz after about 1993-4 you wouldn't have the slightest notion about what has happened in that Period when Cynicism turned to Attrophy because you are these things - and that is where you will get the most Opposition to what is about to happen.


Some became Nazis, others always were - while the Prerequisite for the Job during and after the Mid 90s was learn how to be or else! The ones in the Industry who will adjust to and become part of the new media Environment will be those who weren't and aren't any of these!


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## lighthouse

What's ridiculous is how - after Years of the Social Gulag - People begin to talk - although they all run around waving their Hands in the Air woeing about their Jobs - when they haven't spoken to someone who helped make some of them happen for ages!


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## lighthouse

Blame the Fascist Coven that cursed us all for Culture mentioned earlier - aided and abetted by the corporate Monsters slated in this post by me and other Subscribers. Those horrible Hippies or Druggies - even Social Infrastructure People - with their 30 Pieces of Silver and Creative Economics Bribes from the likes of Mr Sundin - that meant the Soundtrack for a current War is rather less acceptable than that of another one in the same Country 18 Years ago. I wonder what they think of it all when they see it on their Satellite TVs in downtown Basra? I'd also be interested to find out what the Kremlin makes of it all too! It wouldn't surprise me if a similar thing happened in frisco when the Corporates moved in on it all as has happened here! Prestige People and Erroneousness! For a bunch of Hippies they were induced to crap in their own nest spectacularly!

There was a time when Music was for everyone - even moderate Moslems!


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## lighthouse

............................And now those Media Hippies are having their Crisis Meetings etc - but none of it was helped by them selling off some BBC Loyalty to a voracious Organisation like the Disney Corporation. (none too favourable to Trades Unions either). This probably starts in the 90s with Britney, N'Sync, Christina Agulira and Timberlakes later Career - but much of this explains why the Beeb - or any commitment to Public Service and Objectivity - is severely diminished these days! NPR hasn't done this which is why they sound more like the Beeb than the Beeb does (or used to). Meanwhile, of course some of us are working there (or at least its anomalous Bristol Eqiuvalent) - observing both our Unions Code of Conduct and the Producers Guidelines - and not getting anywhere! I stopped owning a TV Years ago because I wasn't sure where the Licence Fee was going - until having something confirmed a few Weeks ago. Still not getting a TV though - probably because of this! Not only were we subsidising an elitist and locally manipulative Clique - but also indirectly an Organisation that has more than enough Money as it is! Not surprised nothing works anymore! There was a time when the Beeb - and buying a Licence to enjoy and be informed by it - was a societal Investment for everyone in that Society...........which is why things did work - and also why the BBC was at the Apex of everything we could do with Programme Making, Technology, Innovation and Journalism.

They sold off the very thing that they might need to fall back on one day - like - erm - now! I remember saying to someone via SMS how it felt we were having the Ground sold from under us a few Years ago..............and it looks like I was probably right! There might be quite a few of us here who'd like to see (or hear) NPR get a Radio Signal to the UK which we can receive on Portable Radio (rather than just the Internet) as an Alternative to what is gradually becoming a Proxy for whoever whatever Producer/Presenter/Researcher - Management is freelancing for!

As I said - maybe the Peoples Century ought to have ended on December 31st 1990 (or when the last Hostage was released) so we could all say "There, look - we finally got it right!"

There is such a thing as too much Business y'know! Even prominent US Financiers have said this very recently in regard to the current Economic Morass!


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## lighthouse

So that Mr Sundin is what is killing Music (amongst other things like Public Service Broadcasting and Communities) - Not a bunch of People doing the Internet Equivalent of what the Home Tapers were doing in the 1960s-90s. How the Record industry corrupts eveything - even Public Funded Media - to the Point of Social Segregation. Where since those early Days when everything is Human Scale and Accessible it becomes less so - even when People are in Proximity. Sorry to explode your Myth about the 'Peoples Music' etc but this is what it's like here - despite whatever public relations you might expend on the Subject. The pathological evasivenes and Regime of Flim Flam some have to endure - and after so much Money has changed hands I'm not surprised at all.

There are only so many People you can do this to - even in the Days before the Internet, until they begin looking for alternatives to the established Media and Music Industry. The politiks of it can be stifling, while the Business Practices can be shoddy to say the least - but now we have the Internet and - thus - the Infrastructure to do what used to be done via those established mediums (I've even had the Conversations I've been wanting to have for Years via this that I couldn't because of the wretched politics that go on in the Media Community), so a Musician is going to find all sorts of Benefits on the Web that Years of heart wrending time wasting with the Biz still couldn't do. The fact is that your Industry has run out of People they can do this to - while the Social Gulag can only accommodate so many of us, and we can only accommodate so much crap that we begin using that Web to tell our Story! (I was anything from 15-28 Years old when mine starts). Meanwhile of course those in the established Industry can only disappear up their own self-importances or Cliques before they just - well - disappear! There are only so many lies that can be told to and about People until they look suspicious in their Consistancy - like a vendetta - or those lousy Industry politics! But then - why do think we've had the Ideas Attrophy of the last 15 Years? Even the BBC realised this and launched 'Talent 2000' to re-enfranchise those who had become Creative Economics Dissidents in the previos Decade!

I recommended that the BBC add another element to their Equal Opportunities policy to include Economic Circumstances - so those horrible Champagne Hippies that dominated its Bristol operation at least have to function on an equal Basis to their less well off Colleagues while at work - and it would confront the Elitism once and for all. They have People working there who have never done an honest days normal work in their lives and thus bring their subsequent snobbery into the BBC Environment - along with all their Corruptions and Cynicisms! That lousy bunch of hooray Henrys and Henriettas have done incalculable Damage to some of our lives with all this - and are so naiive they haven't the vaguest notion what it might do to others! I have seen so much disappear into it - and had so much crap for asking awkward but very justifiable Questions about all of it!

I know exactly what one of those Hippies did with a Letter of mine from 1993 and that miserable lousy bunch of Kaftan Mafiosi did afterwards. this is why I get a reply form London - but not from Bristol - to Correspondence in recent Years. It might be the Capital but it wasn't complicit in this Process. They set about corrupting everything here afterwards too - unlike London!

DON'T FEED THE NAZIS! (Until they tell us what was going on all those years ago!)


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## lighthouse

What makes me laugh is how those I remember from the Media are now scurrying around having their Meetings, seeing M.Ps - even spending vast amounts on Consultants - to find out what has gone wrong in it all - while there's been a Guy sat in this Street for Years who knows exactly what has gone wrong! He grew up with it - knows stuff that isn't in any Text Book - who could tell them, if they bothered to make the paltry 12 Mile (maybe less) journey to see him - but they won't.................like they wouldn't talk to him when he worked with them (and when he did he got fired). But then I suppose you have to be a Champagne Hippie before you know anything huh! They attrophised in their own Conservatism, while it isn't very nice to continually be at the broken end of a hate campaign Bottle either - as I have for a very long time!

But there's one of your Answers Mr Sundin - amongst many - so the real Enemy of Music is the stupid politics in it - and when I say that I mean the politics of the Industry not a Musician making a Political Statement! An Area that perhaps has too much Money and thus creates Elites - inaccessible to most - even those who contribute...............and on it goes until there really isn't anything left of an Industry worth mentioning!


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## lighthouse

And all this stuff about Champagne Hippies isn't a cliched Background thing either......

I worked and socialised for 3 Years with someone whose Status probably merited Diplomatic Protection in some Countries, we worked, socilaised, laughed, cried occasionally and spoke at huge length about anything and everything from 1990-3 without any Hassles at all. The Moment I begin to communicate with someone (who got involved with what we were doing at that time) I get fired - and to this day no-one has been able to explain this! They also haven't been able to explain the Policy of almost Social Erradication that happened long afterwards either! 

It's like some unwritten 11th Commandment that sayeth "Though shalt not speak to the posh Hippie Ladies of the BBC for if thou doest thogh shalt be fired and consigned to the ends of the Earth till the end of Time". So the disincentive for doing anything in the Industry dosen't come from some cliched Marxist veiw of the World in the sense of those from some Backgrounds are this while others are that. Indeed the fact that my Friend and Colleague of that time was from their position in life - and me from mine as it was at that time (although things have emerged since to suggest that there might have been rather more to it than that) being able to interact with no undue affect on employment or anything else afterwards - but not even being able to speak to others - says more about the Conducivenes to what Music is supposed to be. That is the Essense of what the Peoples Music is - not the bulcrap Politics that happened during those early 90s Years despite all their Rhetoric! Paradoxically it's the spiteful politiking of nouvaeu riche 'Professionals' that is Anathema to what it's supposed to be - not the fact that someone could be from an exoterically priveleged Background - and someone else whose Circumstances might not be indicative of this. Stuff the Hyacynth Bouquetist Prestige - which the Saffron Mafia is rivven with - if it is what stifles Music, Creativity and even the Incentive to want to do anything (as it did with me). 

The Mean Spiritedness and politics of Spite (oh, and Treachery) didn't come from my Colleague and Friend of that time that's for sure - and if it did it was from those who pretend not to be any of those things - with all their Propaganda, Fancy Dress, Jargonese, Festivals and supposed Interest in the Peoples Artform! Perhaps we ought to have gone to Prague instead huh!!!!!!


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## lighthouse

Whether it's the Liberalisation of Iran after the Ayatollah, Czechoslovakia doing away with the sort of Patronage that imposed a Career Structured Apartheid that meant I wouldn't even have worked with someone I remember from that time, the all encompassing nature of what the Peoples music is supposed to be - or being Social Inclusionism without a Prime Minister making a Speech about it in the late 1990s - what seemed to be going on with the Pot Pouri Mafia in Bristol set out to reinforce every form of Recidivism imaginable. A Kaftan clad Hyacynth Bouquet learnt to play Guitar and took her Values into the 'Peoples Music' - and thus it became the Music of the People - as long as you satisfied certain Parameters. You see Evidence of the Result of this everyday here as they cruise around in their Clique Mobiles - just as unaccesible as they were then. So much for the 90s and Music bringing People together then huh! More Evidence? I have a chat with someone and the same loop continiues as the Results of it are obviously mulled over in the Saffron Club and something happens (usually negative) the day after. Occasionally it isn't like this - but the thing that reinforces my Point is how I'm not in the Pot Pouri Club with them during that Mulling Over Session (hmmm - _not_ been there before with some of these People).........................whereas at the start of the 90s I'm in a Production Room having many Conversations with someone I never thought I'd be talking to while one of the Millions of Unemployed, on Government Training Programmes and even homeless in the 1980s.

What was happening then can't be intellectualised, conceptualised or contrived - and there are no Political or even Religious perspectives that sum it up - it just is - and that's it. There's no Occult Answer to how it happens, or corrupting the Process with any very subjectivised Interpretations, no dubious Craft wielding the proverbial Athame while it doesn't need Drugs or Narco-Bulcrap to happen. In the end Mr Ashcroft THIS is Music - while the 90s and some of the Stuff that happened (and didn't) might prove to be Anathema not just to Music - but many other things too!


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## lighthouse

In fact - if you look over the Door to Broadcastng House in London you'll see the BBC Motto "Nation shall speak Peace unto Nation" - and that has been the BBCs credo ever since Lord Rieth began the British Broadcastng Company in the 1920s........and what the Beeb always used to strive for. I saw this for the first time in 1965 and probably tried to live my life by it. What we were doing - or represented - Years later (1990-1) is exactly that - not some contrived subcultural Manifesto (usually involving Narco-Ingestion) as espoused by the Culture Industry - but never lives up to. For a 'Be sensitive or else' Decade the 90s turned out to be a very aggressive 10 Years indeed. I look at what has happened since with a huge amount of Scepticism, and what has happened in the World after the 90s with imense Disappointment. After all the Creative Economics Spivvery (with all its concurrent Business) has elapsed when does that Motto begin having substance again? I'm not sure it ever could now as the Damage done in the 90s/Post 90s is far too established in the existing Framework.

The 'Peoples Music' looked set to have significance in the Period when we could honestly say 'We finally got it right' - but all People probably saw in the Decade that followed it was Money, Property and a very long time of cynical Manipulation. The Paradox here is how an Artorm used to set People free from the Abuse of being a Hostage became one that encouraged it, the Intellectualism of Liberation that led to 1989 (or 1991) - which re-enfranchised - then began doing the opposite, and the Cement that made up the 1989 Goddess of Democracy in Beijng had transformed and transported to the Mother of all Democracies (the UK) and set in very erroneous Concrete in the Minds of those who shanghai'ed it all to their own dubious ends!

I hope some of those 90s Careers - here today gone tomorrow Pop Stars and Juxtapositional Celebrity - somehow justify the Consequences of it all!


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## lighthouse

So this explains my Ambivalence about these Hyacynth Bouquet Prestige Freak Pot Pouri Hippies and all their empty Pop Cultural Rhetoric. Pro-Democratists realise why some People donit satisfy the Criteria of Prestige as they invoked the Ire of the Regime and suffered for it - while anyone who'd been at the wrong end of a Fatwa or spent Years in a Tehran Gulag was probably quite relieved when the Ayatollah died and Rafsanjani became President. This applies to Creative Economics Politics too as they have their Gulags and Stalags People are consigned to and rehabilitated from as and when a Regime ascends and dies. I look at the nastiness of the Hyacynth Culture - with all its spiteful Petit Bourgois Values and hope that it fizzles out soon too.............the Damage it has done. Damons supposed 'Ultra-Normality' was anything but as the 'Ultra' part of the Equation rendered it stifling and bland - brutalist even in its innanity. I look forward the time when things don't keep disappearing into it and stuff that is supposed to happen actually does, and you don't see Years later how those in the subsequent Patronage lived it up on the Proceeds......................I mean, how many People can they do over before there's more who've been done over than those doing the over? How much creative Energy can that voracious Monster assimlate before it finally chokes on it? How many People can it murder with Boredom and Isolaton before it has to answer for it? How many Peoples lives can it ruin before it is in itself ruined?

If all those thing that were supposed to happen happened that's plenty of justification for wanting to play Music, celebrate and have a Party - but not until. The proverbial Rough Trade in this instance Mr Burns begins in the early 90s in Bristol - along with the Deceptions and a huge Dollop of Corrupton. They kept this Guy out long enough with their Wall as if 1989 hadn't happened, and Hostages had remained in Lebanon - and in all their Kaftan (or should that be Kafkaesque) Intrigue imposed their own Regime that ensured Bitterness and Spite. 

Nation shall speak Peace unto Nation - the Motto of the Peoples Broadcaster - owned by us all - can't be bought in Capsules or Bottles, from a Clothes or Trinket Shop, smoked in a Bong or otherwise ingested - while it isn't just the Preserve of one Clique or Subculture. It happens when People are honest with each other, greed is resisted and an organic approach to life is maintained.It isn't achieved by a Regime of benefits of Culture Economics for one - but not for the other - and although the Hippies might use the Propaganda of Peace all I've known because of their Creative Economics Politics is War - a Metaphor for everything that has happened in the last few Years! Yeah, I'll agree that there are many things that are very beautiful about it - lovely even - but it stops being so when it becomes exclusive or corrupted by the Business of Art.................or deliberately or consceously allows itself to become distracted at the expense of others who are struggling! 

What was paid for by all of us who had a TV in the Years before the start of the 90s va our Licence, contribited to by some of us via Creative Works started to become the domain of some of them - and this is where many things - not just Cultural - began to go very wrong!


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## lighthouse

I remember when the beginnings of all this were human scale and involving a bunch of People doing various things in Bristol. I was writing stuff and making Radio, others were coordinating a Human Rights Album, some worked for NFCF, some were in Photography and others did stuff in the Ethical or Peace Movement or studied for various Careers Years later - as I don't know how much Money has changed hands, Property bought and sold, lives established and the Laundering of Lives begins, the Situaton now is anything but. They were good People once, but as the slowly (now not so) Concreted Patronage decides who is and who isn't going to establish themsleves in the Regime of the last 18 Years - they are now at the unbroken end of the proverbial Bottle! Our Culture now isn't the sort of Culture they had - when Man Meets Woman and Nature takes it's course etc - and which still did what Madonnas 'Music' says it does and because they are now established they don't have to rely on the wretched awfulness it has turned into...........like some of us who'd been in their Gulag for Years now have to. They've gone bad, cynical, as they do as they get older and build the Wall around themselves. Now though this has had implications on the Industry they rely on to continue their Lifetyles and instead of keeping People out, that Wall of theirs is keeping them in. They became a Clique - inaccessible to many - now they only have that self serving Clique to fall back on - but the others in it are in the same predicament they are. They dug theur own hole - and are gradually falling into it!


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## lighthouse

It's completely unacceptable that a Publicly funded Broadcaster like the BBC should be compomised by the Whims of a few People in the West Country................like it's just as unacceptable to have it compromised by the very subjective lyrical or lifestylist Content of a Groups Recordings or any other Business orientated Culture phenomenon - be-it a Book, Film, Fashion Accessory or TV Show. It is also wrong to have it prostrated by the Machinations of a Political Party or Politician - regardless of where they might be in the Myriad of Ideological Allegiances.............like any one Subculture should be told exactly where to get off if they attempt to unduly influence it.

What do you suppose it would be like if - in the 1960s - the Beeb decided to be 'The Beatles' of Radio and TV - emulating every aspect of the fab 4? Does this mean that - by 1970 - they decide to call it a day like the Liverpool Band did? How about Elvis? Do they - by definition have their 1950s era (all Leather and Grease, Rock and Roll - and G.I Blues), then has its uncertain 60s period - while it all culminates in the 1970s Vegas Era - and expires through over ingestion of Burgers? No it doesn't - and it has outlived all of these. Any Group that tries to impose its subjectivity on the Beeb is wrong - in that it ought to remember that there are a Million others - with their own Music, Lyrics and Lifestyles - in any Record Shop or online Music Vendor. The Beeb started having problems in the 1990s when it began doing exactly this - trying to be all trendy to the soundtrack of the Decade - forgetting that most Groups of that time have a limited longevity and built in Obsolescences. After a few years of this the Broadcaster that spent Years being THE Media Organistation that set Precedents for others to emulate becomes not much more than an extension of the very 'here today, gone tommorrow' Process that one of its most famous News Presenters accused a tory Defence Minister of being in the early 1980s.

If those People in the West Contry insist on maintaining their Regime on the workings of an Organistaion that isn't just this Part of the UK - or indeed just the UK - via its brilliant World Service - they can quite justifiably be accused of a form of Dictatorship and told off quite severely for it. But this is exactly what they have done, and I see BBC People past and present skulk about as if they've done something wrong for working for it - like it was fractured or ashamed. Why - when that accreditation entitled you to interview anyone from the US President to Stalin, to the most disposessed and marginalised Peolple in latin America or the Wealthiest CEO in Manhattan. It has outlived everyone from Kennedy to Kruschev - Harold McMillan to Harold Wilson - and it peeves me imensely when I see the wretched effects of a few selfish and manipulative People in this part of the World attempt to hijack all of this to their own very dubious and completely selfish ends - as they have done. They might think they are sooooo important in this Area - but there are Millions more in this Country and probably up to a Billion in all the others of the World who might not subscribe to that very self-important, self-appointed form of Egocentricism!

I tell them this as much for their own good as well as those of the BBC - because if the manipulative Saffrom Mafia won't dissist from this Process - those millions of others might decide to enact their own form of Subjectivity and the Lyrical Content of a 1998 Record by Primal Scream! 

Horrible selfish West Country Hippies!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


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## lighthouse

............and if the Beeb begins to get drawn into the Subjective at the expense of the Objective - as it did in the 1990s - who sets the Precedent not just in the UK but elsewhere for quality Broadcasting? No one does, and in the end the Blind leads the Blind in a pitiful story of a bunch of people chasing their own Tail. If you induce deliberate Sclerosis - as happened here for probably 30 Years - you can work out the rest. There are too many Deceptions in this area anyway to be good for any Media or creative Environment - while those who ought to know better surpress their better Judgement for the sake of some Expediency. Why do Emails to Radio two get replied to - but those to Bristol don't - despite the very obvious Creative Economics Overlap? The Answer to that is simple - the former is still Objective while the latter isn't (or not any more).


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## lighthouse

If jt's any consolation to BBC Workers elsewhere in the UK or the World - not all of us benefit from the Graft here either. I'm former BBC and so is my Dad - but I'm only a Tennant so don't have the necessary Collateral to be a part of the dstorting effects of the last (however many) Years! A poignant question for those who have is -'What happens to the Beeb when all ths Property Stuff ends? Just how much has this concept town influenced any 90s-post 90s editorial content for example?


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## lighthouse

There will be other BBC Workers in the World who have to live their Lives honestly - without the 'assurances' their west Country Equivalents might have known, and it's diabolical that they should be let down by the Greed and Cynicisms of those fortunate enough to be in this Area when all this was put together. I'm more like them than the latter - and I always thought there was something rather glib about a lot of it..............while there was always a Sleekness about this Areas Beeb People that might not have exsited with the others (the Answers to this are now quite apparent). What I want to know is what happens to the Beeb when it has been all used up by this and suddenly realises that its Constitution isn't worth the paper it's written on? Any Beeb Workers who were privvy to what was happening here ought to resign and work for Spiv FM or something - but then find out just what it is like to have to compete in the Commercial Environment. Another Question; what's going to be left for anyone else after they have caroused, quaffed and otherwise indulged in this Graft and whether it's becomeing the Media Beatles in the 1960s (announcing its break up in 1970) - or Property Development FM in the 90s - do Spandex 80s Rockers - Europe - re-record their famous song to be played throughout 2011 - culminating in the 'Final Closedown' in 2012?

Cue Contnuity Announcer: brought out of Retirement for this rather inauspicious occasion "And that concludes our Broadcast for the last 90s Years. We hope you've enjoyed our Radio and TV Programmes during that time and have been entertained and informed by them. Unfortunately - we have to close down for the time being - as we regroup, rediscover why we existed at all and try to re-establish the Integrity that not only meant we were the BBC you all knew and loved all these Years - but also showed other Broadcasters how one does quality Media. Hopefully normal service might be resumed as soon as possible - albeit in Digital!"

You then get "The Internationale" - with a Monatge of the most memorable clips of BBC Journalism and Programmes.................and the TV and Radio shuts down - that synonomous white Dot gradually disappears on the screen, and that's it.

The following day the Inhabitants of the collapsed No Name City shuffle off to the next 'Gold Rush' and someone plays the legendary Niel Young Song on a Harmonica!

In the Context of all this I don't think it is too much to say that they've been very selfish indeed here!


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## lighthouse

And those other BBC Workers - and fellow Journalists can consider that an open Letter to them from someone who has known your Industry all his Life - but lived in an Area dominated by some of the most assumptive, arrogant People imaginable!


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## lighthouse

The latest withdrawal from Bristol is the award winning TV Show Casualty - along wth it's spin-off Show Holby City . This has been based in the City since 1984 - but they've decided to relocate it to Cardiff and in the Circumstances I'm not at all surprised. All these Years later I still don't know what really happened wth a Bristol based Project I was involved with from the very beginning and there's heaps of other stuff too - and no-one relevant to any of it has ever been available for Comment in the Years since. I consider how many things I've been associated with that have just disappeared into it - and then the almost contemptuous coercions afterwards.....not to mention the Brutality. When you spend 100s of Millions publicly funded TV Budget on a Show you want to be sure that those responsible are - well - responsible, and you don't want it going into a Regime as opaque as Bristol seems to be. The Unions are campaignng against its Relocate but maybe they need to ask about the accountablty of recent Years. From my time in its Creative Economy - even I've found it to be exasperatingly evasive and I'd begin to be alarmed in those Circumstances. Why relocate a Programme that has been made in the same City for 25 Years - unless they've noticed a Discrepancy - or decided that how that City does its Business is somewhat at odds with the rest of the UK. It's sad for Bristol but maybe the Arrogance of a few has let down others who aren't. This is a continuing Trend with this Area - but then with the chronic Incommunicado of many Years that continues to this day within its Media Community - which resulted in almost Civil War throughout the Corporation almost since 2000 - maybe they've decided that a Show as popular and vital to the BBC Schedule as Casualty needs to made somewhere where such things aren't as likely to happen.


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## lighthouse

When they made the Relocate Decision there are all sorts of Factors they look at................

Potentially TV Shows like Casualty bring a lot of Creative Economics Money into an Area - as it has in Bristol for Years, but hey then look for the Social Reinvestment. Thus far it has been non existant, as have other things. Where was the Reinvestment with all the stuff after a Hostage Project happened in the City for example? Plenty of Record Industry and fashion Business stuff - but no Reinvestment - even for a Guy who subsequently spent Years in a rather dismal High Street. How about all the TV Stuff resulting from a Competition? Still no Reinvestment..................and on it goes, until the only thing that can be relied on is the Regimes continued unreliability. This seems to be endemic with Bristol but not with the Welsh Capital, and thus they will be making their much loved and very popular Show there in the near Future. This means that at least something will be put back into Cardiffian Life that was never out into what I describe as the Bermuda Triangle of Creative Economics. The Industry is competotive - but isn't as competitive as Bristol made it - and it's crucial for the continuing benefit of Creativity - and those in it - but no less importantly those left out of it for far too long - that the Funding doesn't just disappear into the Glory Boxes of a Clique - as happened in Bristol. Oh, and it ought to be noted that the level of funding - and what a BBC Programme means in terms of Fiscality and Kudos is rather more substantial than whatever a few Trip Hop Groups and Drum and Bass might bring to an Area!


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## lighthouse

This is just one part of the huge Transformation the Industry is having to make to ensure that it doesn't irredeemably attrophise. What had happened over the Years (and what hadn't) had become sclerotic to the Point of being murderous - where many Years of the same Regime - playing out the same Song day in day out - had created an intellectual Elite that assumed an almost divine right to be so. They could continue with the Intellectual and Culture Manipulation indefinately and nothing would ever improve. The Bristol Champagne Hippies could appropriate in their Saffron World - while others had to contend with what I call 'the daily Confrontation'. It wasn't always like this - although I suspect the local Decision Makers were intent on making it so a very long time ago. It breeds Ignorance too.......when People see a Guy in the Street all they see is that - and they are critical - but that Guy has seen those Saffron Dwellers acquire - indulge - and exclude so he spends Years being that proverbial Man in the Street. This is the Result of an Attrophy the Beeb decided to confront - a very dark form of Conservatism that any amount of Intellectualist Manipulation could maintain. As it got more Money it didn't become more civilised or enlightened and indeed the opposite happens and the Situation deteriorates. To call it glib is a n understatement - to call the resulting Environment unacceptable is to state the bleeding obvious.

That Bristol Cartel maintained this for Years - the Damage is immense, the Corruption worse. and the BBC had to do something about it. Subsequently, they (the Cartel) will have even less Creative Economics to play with and their Saffron World reduces even further. This has to happen otherwise we end up in a similar Morass as happened in the early 1970s when sclerotic and erroneous Unions did battle with their equally obtuse Bosses in a War that brought the economy to the Brink of collapse and this is a Metaphor for what was happening creatively and in the Creative Community. I remember feeling this even as early as the beginning of 1993 - and that was while working for the BBCs Station in Bristol. The BBC isn't stupid and knows exactly what is going on in this Area (augmented by reports made like this one) and have made a difficult but necessary choice. It's not easy or expedient to relocate an entire TV Show - as they have to move to new Studios, haul Sets, Props, Crew, Cast and research new Locations in its new home City but if this is what it takes to confront the Decay of Years, send a very clear Message to those responsible, and address the subsequent Culture of Awfulness - hateful and conservative in all its contemptuousness it had become - then so be it!


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## lighthouse

In the end the Industry - or the Broadcast part of it and specifically the BBC - has been given a Fait Accompli by Circumstance......................Restructure or die!!!! Continue as it has for Years and creak, groan and implode on the subsequent sleaze and any unacceptable undue influence, or transform into what it needs to be in the 21st Century. The Unions have to realise that it is erroneous to attempt to maintain a Situation that could jeapordise all Jobs in it - while Management needs to ensure that they manage into the Future - to ensure its very future. The BBC isn't any subjectivised Creative Product - but could concurrently be all of them. It isn't one show on the Radio or TV (Local, Regional, National, International) - but all of them, like it isn't any one of the Organisations it makes Programmes about, or Area it broadcasts from ,and in some ways John Peel summed this up with his Radio One Programme playing the latest Dance or Indie, 1920s Swing, Classical, Punk, 60s Garage, Reggae - Ambient or Drum and Bass - while then doing the completely un-Rock and Roll 'Home Truths' on Radio 4 on Saturday Mornings (and if you've heard any of these you'll know what I mean here)........and this is the BBC Remit. Once Circumstances begin compromising that then it has to adapt - or transform. A similar thing happened in the 1960s when Network TV was moved from Alexandra Palace to the Purpose Built Television Centre for reasons of Practicality and Technological Development.


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## JohnWill

OK, we've worn this topic out, so I'm going to close it.


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